Genetic affinities of the Zoutsteeg individuals. (A) D-statistic test results for STM3. Error bars correspond to 3 SEs of the D-statistic. Results for STM1 and STM2 are plotted in SI Appendix, Fig. S18. (B) Sampling locations for the 11 African populations in our reference panel (17). (C) Procrustes-transformed PCA plot of the Zoutsteeg individuals with African reference panel samples. (D) Ancestry proportions for the Zoutsteeg individuals and those of 188 African individuals in the reference panel, as inferred by ADMIXTURE analysis (19).
This paper adds more support to the presence of R1, among African slaves. The authors report that they found that Zoutsteeg (STM1) was identified as belonging to haplogroup R1b1c-V88.
Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
Going on three years and I had no clue a study like this existed, nice post or repost if you've already shown this before Ish.
So yeah, Their might've been a stronger Sudanic/sahelian presence among the Captives heading towards the new world. recent studies on Aframs Using Malder and Globetrotter tends to point in that direction, as those methods show influence from European Admixture to be considerably lower than previously detected.
Interesting moving parts.
quote:For the Mandenka and Dinka, the D-test results were not significant, suggesting that these populations are equally closely related to the STMs as are the Yoruba. The lack of rejection for the Dinka was surprising, as this population—from southern Sudan—is not known to have been involved in the Atlantic slave trade.
[...]
We then combined the three analyses using Procrustes transformation, as done in ref. 13. Interestingly, the samples clustered with different populations: Bantu-speaking groups in the case of STM1 (specifically, Bamoun) and non-Bantu–speaking groups for STM2 and STM3 (Fig. 1C). We observed similar patterns using the probabilistic model of population splits and divergence implemented in TreeMix (18)
...
- Funny thing about the bamoum is that they're one of the groups which I jokingly called "Elongated." but do not show much Autosomal signs of N/E or North African Admixture.
...Eyeballing aside, STM1 seems to have some strong chadic-Cameroon influences; via R1b1 + L3b1a, though he "clusters" well within Bantu speakers. Anyone have much info on L2a1f? Ish, Beyoku, Capra?
quote:The most striking feature of the skeletons was that their teeth had been intentionally modified. In case of STM1, the occlusal edge of the two central upper incisors had been filed down horizontally, save for the distal extremities, which had been left and cut vertically (Fig. S2). The lateral upper incisors had also been filed on the distal side, creating a pointed shape. The lower incisors were all missing but it is possible that they had also been modified. In case of STM2, the upper incisors had been chipped on both the mesial and distal sides, resulting in a pointed shape (Fig. S3). The two left lower incisors were missing but the other two had also been modified to create a pointed shape and it seems safe to assume that all four had been originally modified the same way. For STM3, the whole mandible and both central upper incisors were missing but both upper lateral incisors were still present and had also been modified to produce a pointed shape (Fig. S4). Although the central incisors were missing, it can be assumed that they had also been filed, as it was very uncommon to modify the lateral incisors alone
Btw. WTF is up with this? Were these guys pirates? they're obviously from 3 different regions, wouldn't dis be a new world practice?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: This paper adds more support to the presence of R1, among African slaves. The authors report that they found that Zoutsteeg (STM1) was identified as belonging to haplogroup R1b1c-V88.
I noticed that too, so for that reason I posted this here. There is more on this topic.
Laterrrrrr.
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Going on three years and I had no clue a study like this existed, nice post or repost if you've already shown this before Ish.
I bumped into by accident, but it appears that xyyman posted this already 10 March, 2015.
To classify the Y-chromosome haplogroup of STM1, we assembled a panel of phylogenetically informative SNPs, with emphasis on those lineages previously reported to occur at appreciable frequencies within Africa. First, toward the root of the tree (Fig. S13), we included all SNPs specific to haplogroups A00, A0-T, A0, A1, A1a, A1b, A1b1, and BT, as listed in the database maintained by the International Society of Genetic Genealogy (http://www.isogg.org/). Second, to probe the internal branches of the tree, we included all SNPs specific to haplogroups B, CT, E, F, HIJK, K, K(xLT), and P, as described in a study of 69 globally diverse Y-chromosome sequences (37). Finally, we utilized data from 1204 Sardinian sequences (42), restricted to coordinates deemed callable in (37), to identify SNPs specific to the roots of haplogroups J and T and to all hg R branchings leading to and descending from R1b-V88.
We formulated the haplogroup classification question as a decision tree and observed (Fig. S13): (i) exclusively ancestral alleles within paraphyletic “A” (haplogroups A00, A0, A1a, and A1b1), as well as in haplogroups B, E, J, and T; (ii) exclusively derived alleles along the path leading to R1b, which includes A0–T, A1, A1b, BT, CT, CF, F, HIJK, IJK, K(xLT), P, R, R1, and R1b. Within R1b, the STM1 lineage was ancestral for all R1b1a-M269 SNPs and derived for 4 of the 5 R1b1c-V88 SNPs for which sequencing data were available.
—Hannes Schroeder, Carlos D. Bustamante et al.
Genome-wide ancestry of 17th-century enslaved Africans from the Caribbean
Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
@Elmaestro
I don't know if you are African-American. But I am part AA and its very interesting that you bring up Sudanic/sahelian presence. Because AA culture is unique among the Afro diaspora.
Why?
Because unlike most in the diaspora our culture was greatly influenced by Sahelian Africans/areas influenced by Muslim Africans. That is where the root of the Blues comes from which is the ancestor to almost ALL African-American music and pop music world wide.
My family is from the Carolinas and the Carolinas mostly used rice plantation. Slaves from those areas were needed because they were skilled in rice cultivation. It POSSIBLE I can have Sahelian ancestry. MAYBE..
And yeah European admixture in AAs is overstated and overrated.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro:
quote:The most striking feature of the skeletons was that their teeth had been intentionally modified. In case of STM1, the occlusal edge of the two central upper incisors had been filed down horizontally, save for the distal extremities, which had been left and cut vertically (Fig. S2). The lateral upper incisors had also been filed on the distal side, creating a pointed shape. The lower incisors were all missing but it is possible that they had also been modified. In case of STM2, the upper incisors had been chipped on both the mesial and distal sides, resulting in a pointed shape (Fig. S3). The two left lower incisors were missing but the other two had also been modified to create a pointed shape and it seems safe to assume that all four had been originally modified the same way. For STM3, the whole mandible and both central upper incisors were missing but both upper lateral incisors were still present and had also been modified to produce a pointed shape (Fig. S4). Although the central incisors were missing, it can be assumed that they had also been filed, as it was very uncommon to modify the lateral incisors alone
Btw. WTF is up with this? Were these guys pirates? they're obviously from 3 different regions, wouldn't dis be a new world practice?
Apparently this tradition is relevantly old
quote: Prehistoric dental modification in West Africa – early evidence from Karkarichinkat Nord, Mali
This paper reports the earliest securely dated evidence for intentional dental modification in West Africa. Human remains representing 11 individuals were recovered from the sites of Karkarichikat Nord (KN05) and Karkarichinkat Sud (KS05) in the lower Tilemsi Valley of eastern Mali. The modified anterior maxillary dentitions of four individuals were recovered from KN05. The dental modification involved the removal of the mesial and distal angles of the incisor, as well as the mesial angles of the canines. The modifications did not result from task-specific wear or trauma, but appear instead to have been produced for aesthetic purposes. All of the filed teeth belonged to probable females, suggesting the possibility of sex-specific cultural modification. Radiocarbon dates from the site indicate that the remains pertain to the Late Stone Age (ca. 4500–4200 BP). Dental modification has not previously been reported from this region of West Africa and our findings indicate that the practice was more widespread during prehistory.
However, the irony is that these authors claim something else?
quote:Not of African Descent: Dental Modification among Indigenous Caribbean People from Canímar Abajo, Cuba
Abstract
Dental modifications in the Caribbean are considered to be an African practice introduced to the Caribbean archipelago by the influx of enslaved Africans during colonial times. Skeletal remains which exhibited dental modifications are by default considered to be Africans, African descendants, or post-contact indigenous people influenced by an African practice. Individual E-105 from the site of Canímar Abajo (Cuba), with a direct 14C AMS date of 990–800 cal BC, provides the first unequivocal evidence of dental modifications in the Antilles prior to contact with Europeans in AD 1492. Central incisors showing evidence of significant crown reduction (loss of crown volume regardless of its etiology) were examined macroscopically and with a scanning electron microscope (SEM) to determine if the observed alterations were due to deliberate modification or other (unintentional) factors considered: postmortem breakage, violent accidental breakage, non-dietary use of teeth, and wear caused by habitual or repeated actions. The pattern of crown reduction is consistent with deliberate dental modification of the type commonly encountered among African and African descendent communities in post-contact Caribbean archaeological assemblages. Six additional individuals show similar pattern of crown reduction of maxillary incisors with no analogous wear in corresponding mandibular dentition.
[…]
Introduction
Dental modifications (DMs) in the Caribbean have been associated with individuals of African descent and, consequently, with the post-contact era [1–12]. The only exception is a skeleton recovered from the site of Chorro de Maita (Cuba), identified as a post-contact displaced Mesoamerican individual [13]. The latter shows a definite Mesoamerican type of dental filing, different in both style and technique from the “African-type” which predominantly involves crown reduction by chipping and filing of the upper anterior dentition [11, 14].
African practices of DM were first described in early accounts from European visitors to West Africa and later observed by ethnographers as summarized by Handler [6]. The most common forms of African DMs included chipping and filing of multiple incisors into points or ‘Vs’ and chipping and filing between upper central incisors resulting in an inverted ‘V’ shape [15–17].
To date, no DMs in the Caribbean have been interpreted as evidence of a pre-contact practice, even when skeletal remains were recovered from indigenous cemeteries that predate contact [1]. Here we present the first case of the so-called “African type” DM observed in securely dated pre-contact individuals from Cuba, at the site of Canímar Abajo [18] predating the arrival of individuals from Africa to the Caribbean by almost 2.5 millennia [19]. Individual E-105, with a direct 14C AMS date of 990–800 cal BC [18] and an inverted “V” shaped crown reduction of central maxillary incisors (Fig 1), demonstrated that this type of DM was present in the Antilles prior to the arrival of enslaved African populations into the region.
[…]
Archaeological Context
Individual E-105 was recovered in 2010 from the site of Canímar Abajo located near Matanzas city (23° 2' 15.5" N; 81° 29' 49.1" E) in the Matanzas province of Cuba (Fig 2a). Canímar Abajo is a complex shell-matrix site with two superimposed burial episodes separated by a midden layer [18]. The site is located on an ancient beach on the western bank of the Canímar River, near to where the river flows into the Bay of Matanzas, forming a resource-rich estuary [18]. Systematic excavations over 36 m2 (Fig 2b) yielded a minimum number of 213 individuals in 50 burials of the older cemetery (OC) and 92 burials of the younger cemetery (YC), as well as some isolated bones recovered from the midden layer (Fig 2c). The older of the two cemetery components was dated by six AMS 14C dates to between 1380–800 cal BC (2 sigma), while the younger was dated to cal AD 360–950 (2 sigma) by five AMS 14C dates obtained directly from human skeletal remains [18], all clearly predating the contact with European colonizers and the arrival of enslaved Africans into the Caribbean.
[…]
DMs at Canímar Abajo span both cemetery components, which lasted between approximately 1400 BC and AD 950 with an apparent burial hiatus from 800 BC to AD 360 [18]. Long persistence of this type of modification could indicate that the same population used both cemetery components. This notion is further supported by the consistency of subsistence strategies employed in both the OC and YC at Canímar Abajo, as well the marked differences in subsistence strategies observed between Canímar Abajo and other contemporaneous Cuban sites [37]. Further research into the cultural meaning of body modifications in the region—for both past and present populations—is needed before we can discuss the motivation behind the DM practice at the site of Canímar Abajo. Analysis of dental morphology and the aDNA, which are currently underway, will provide more definite answers to the questions of continuity between the two components and their biological identity. While the ancestry of Canímar Abajo individuals cannot be ascertained, it is clear from associated 14C dates that they are indigenous Caribbean people and not enslaved Africans.
Perhaps someone is lying? Or lets say, not telling the whole truth?
If I remember this correctly, they did find R lineages in prehistoric America?
Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
^ not to my knowledge, Clyde swears up and down that R1b was in the new world though... Iono though. Maybe Abu Bakr II was successful and found his way in the carribean, who knows.
But those findings are interesting.
@BBH, Yeah... It is something when 23 & Me Often has Afram at a higher African % than Ancestry.com, or when looking at a lot of the Iconic figures (rebels) early in the colonial error who were literate (most of whom read Arabic). You can see that there's more to Aframs than Yorubans + Europeans & Native American. The interesting part about the post colonial Admixture though, is that a lot of it was attributed to Iberian/African intermixing. That's shaky because Iberians have a near eastern Affinity , closely resembling that of Earlier influence on the Sahara.
Even the OP's Article points out the closeness between Sardinians and Sahelians (in respects to R1b1a1c), as spoken about by us in Tukulers north African Thread of recent.
bottom line, fact of the matter is, when you say...
"And yeah European admixture in AAs is overstated and overrated."
I am 100% with you.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Kivisild et al (2017) proves that V88 was in Europe in prehistoric times. Stop making stuff up.
We discuss R haplogroup and Native Americans because they carry R-M173 which is also carried by West Africans.
.
.
We don't know how many mongoloid Native Americans carry V88, because African hapogroups are excluded from research in studies of Native American DNA.
We may never know the admixture between Native Americans and Africans if we wait to get the information from researchers because they are attempting to maintain the status quo. Discrepancies take place because researchers do not want to tell the truth about the genetic histories of African people and their admixture with Native Americans and Eurasians. As a result, researchers have developed methods to exclude evidence of non-Africans carrying haplogroups mtDNA haplogroups L, and y-Chromosomes E and A.
This is due to the protocols of AdMixture and Structure programs that assume that Native Americans, Europeans and Africans only met after 1492. As a result researchers try to find methods to exclude African presence in European and Native Americans so evidence of this admixture will not be evidenced in the final results. Next researchers claim that if African people carry mtDNA haplogroups: N, R, M and D ; and Y-Chromosomes C, Q, I, J, and R, they are carrying Eurasians haplogroups, eventhough all of these haplogroups are found among African populations that have no history of admixture with Europeans. As a result, these haplogroups are probably of African origin--not a back migration.
Researchers believe this evidence should be excluded because any African admixture among these populations have to be recent. The best example of how African admixture is excluded in research is Reich, D. et al, Reconstructing Native American population history. Nature 488, 370-374 (2012) Paper web page , the method used to exclude African admixture from this study is detailed in Supplementary Material 1.Reich, D. et al (2012) outlines the motivations for the exclusion of Africans from his study:
quote:
(i) Motivation There were a number of populations for which we did not have access to unadmixed samples. To learn about the history of such populations, we needed to adjust for the presence of non-Native ancestry. We used three complementary approaches to do this. The concordance of results from all these approaches increases our confidence in the key findings of this study.
(1) Restricting to unadmixed samples: We restricted some analyses to 163 Native American samples (34 populations) without any evidence of recent European or African admixture (Note S2). A limitation of these studies, however, is that we could not analyze 16 populations in which all individuals were inferred to have some degree of recent admixture.
(2) Local ancestry masking: We identified segments of the genome in each individual that had an appreciable probability of harboring non-Native American or Siberian ancestry. We then created a “masked” dataset that treated genetic data in these sections as missing (Note S4).
(3) Ancestry Subtraction: We explicitly corrected for the effect of the estimated proportion of European and African in each sample by adjusting the value of f4-statistics by the amount that is expected from this admixture. This is discussed in what follows.
(ii) Details of Ancestry Subtraction Assume that we have an accurate estimate of African and European ancestry for each sample (whether it is an individual or a pool of individuals). In practice, we used the ADMIXTURE k=4 estimates, because as described below, they appear to be accurate for Native American populations (with the possible exception of Aleuts as we discuss below). We can then define:
a = % African ancestry in a test sample e = % European ancestry in a test sample 1-a-e = % Native ancestry
For many of our analyses, we are computing f4 statistics, whose values are affected in a known way by European and African admixture. Thus, we can algebraically correct for the effect of recent European or African admixture on the test statistics, obtaining an “Ancestry Subtracted” statistic that is what is expected for the sample if it had no recent European or African ancestry.
The main context in which we compute f4 statistics is in our implementation of the 4 Population Test, to evaluate whether the allele frequency correlation patterns in the data are consistent with the proposed tree ((Unadmixed, Test),(Outgroup1, Outgroup2)), where the Unadmixed population is a set of Native American samples assumed to derive all of their ancestry from the initial population that peopled America, the Test population is another Native American population, and the two outgroups are Asian populations. An f4 statistic consistent with zero suggests that the Unadmixed and Test populations form a clade with no evidence of ancestry from more recent streams of gene flow from Asia. If the Test population harbors recent European or African ancestry, however, a significant deviation of this statistic from zero would be expected, making it difficult to interpret the results. We thus compute a linear combination of f4 statistics that is expected to equal what we would obtain if we had access to the Native American ancestors of the Test population without recent European or African admixture:
Intuitively, this statistic is subtracting the contribution to the f4 statistic that is expected from their proportion a of West African-like ancestry (Yoruba), and their proportion e of West Eurasian-like ancestry (French). We then renormalize by 1/(1-a-e) to obtain the statistic that would be expected if the sample was unadmixed.
A potential concern is that the African and European ancestry in any real Native American test sample is not likely to be from Yoruba and French exactly; instead, it will be from related populations. However, S1 is still expected to have the value we wish to compute if we choose the outgroups to be East Asians or Siberians. The reason is that genetic differences between Yoruba and the true African ancestors, and French and the true European ancestors, are not expected to be correlated to the frequency differences between two East Asian or Siberian outgroups. Specifically, the allele frequency differences are due to history within Africa or Europe, which is not expected to be correlated to allele frequency differences within East Asia and within Siberia.
(iii) Ancestry Subtraction gives results concordant with those on unadmixed samples To compare the performance of our three approaches to address the confounder of recent European and African admixture, we computed 48 = 8×6 statistics of the form f4(Unadmixed, Test; Han, San). We choose “Unadmixed” to be one of 8 Native American groups from Meso-America southward that have sample sizes of at least two and for which all samples are inferred to be unadmixed by ADMIXTURE k=4 (Chane, Embera, Guahibo, Guaymi, Karitiana, Kogi, Surui and Waunana). We choose “Test” to be one of 8 Native American populations from Meso-America southward with at least two samples that are entirely unadmixed, and that also have at least two samples that have >5% non-Native admixture according to the ADMIXTURE k=4 analysis (Aymara, Cabecar, Pima, Tepehuano, Wayuu and Zapotec1). This allows us to compare results on admixed and unadmixed samples from the same population.
If the Test population harbors European or West African admixture that we have not corrected, we expect to see a significant deviation of the statistic from zero. For example, f4(Karitiana, French; Han, San), corresponding to the statistic expected for an entirely European-admixed Native American population, is significant at Z = 45 standard errors from zero, and f4(Karitiana, Yoruba; Han, San), which gives the f4-value we would expect for an entirely West African-admixed Native American population, is significant at Z = 101.
Figure S3.1 shows the scatterplots of Z-scores we obtain without Ancestry Subtraction, with Ancestry Subtraction, and with local ancestry masking (Note S4). The x-axis shows data for the unadmixed samples from each Test population, while the y-axis shows the results for the >5% admixed samples from the same populations. We find that: • Without Ancestry Subtraction there are significant deviations from zero (|Z|>3) (Fig. S3.1A) • With Ancestry Subtraction, there are no residual |Z|-scores >3 (Figure S3.1B) • With local ancestry masking (Note S4), there are again no residual |Z|-scores >3 (Figure S3.1C), showing that this method also appears to be appropriately correcting for the admixture.
Given the exclusion of Africans from studies like Reich, D. et al (2012), means that we are not really knowing the actual admixture among Africans and Native American that carry the accepted African haplogroups: i.e., haploroups E , L and etc.
There are a number of Y-chromosome Haplogroups shared by mongoloid Native Americas and Afro-Americans.
I can not find any information on V88 among Afro-Americans. But I have found information on the frequency of haplogroup R among Afro-Americans.
.
. Haplogroup E-P1 is called E1b1a1 .In the Hammer et al (2006) study while 63% of Afro-Americans carry this haplogroup,1.3% Native Americans carry the same haplogroup. .
. The second most frequent Y-chromosome among Afro-Americans is R1b. In the Vallone and Butler (2004) study AAs carried around 0.3% R-M207, and 23% R1b. . . Miller et al (2006) did a detailed study of Afro-American and Native American Y-Chromosome. Miller et al (2006) revealed that NA and AAs share many R haplogroups including R-M17 and R-M207. It is interesting to note that in relation to R-M269, that 21% carried this haplogroup, while 17.0 of AAs carried the same haplogroup. This is interesting because there is very little statistical difference between 17% and 21%. Given the correlation between African and Mongoloid R1, indicates that many AAs who were told that their ancestors were Native Americans, who carry R1, is a reflection of their Black Native American ancestry. Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
^wtf are you a bot? how'd you reply so fast? ...If not to me, who are you even referring to w/ your first sentence?? And please provide a study showing Native American R1 coalescent dates preceding the colonial era.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Stop making stuff up.
Clyde I thought you said making up stuff is true until falsified
Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
@Elmaestro
I am seeing more and more AAs who are light bright being around 90% African!!!
I got more but I think I made my point. Fact is phenotype is deceiving. But whats even more crazy is that the majority of AA admixture has NOT repeat has NOT been tested. Maybe only 35%. I agree that we are more than just Yoruba, European and Native American. ESPECIALLY on an individual scale.
Anyways do you have that study that shows AAs have significant Sahelian ancestry? Because I wanna post it somewhere.
Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
Although I didn't quite say what you said I did lmao I will throw you a bone anyways lol. There's no one study that says AA's have significant Sahelian Ancestry, however, Sahelian admixture wass noted in a series of studies...
is one of the main studies I had in mind when I posted above, talking about the overestimated post colonial European Admixture in Aframs.
quote: Furthermore, ADMIXTURE estimated that western RHG ancestry accounted for ~4.8% of the African ancestry of African Americans (Fig.4andfig.S19). Given that a direct RHG contribution to the slave trade is unlikely (tableS12) (10), this result further supports that a large fraction of the genome of African Americans derives from wBSPs, who themselves have ~16% western RHG ancestry (Fig. 4). Our results indicate that the ultimate African origins of African Americans are more diverse than previously suggested
Whole thing is important, it's 1 page and it's an easy read... You'll see where I'm coming from, come my last and final post on the page.
Just for more transparency, what had happened was, many studies noted Sahelian Admixture but no study outside of the Caribbean went in detail about R1 clades in Aframs and up until patin 2017, general structure runs assigned non-west African like Admixture to Europeans, mostly Iberians. I argue that the Sahelian component is higher than given credit for in the past (I'm not saying researchers haven't always stated there were Sahelian components in Aframs.) Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: @Elmaestro
I am seeing more and more AAs who are light bright being around 90% African!!!
I got more but I think I made my point. Fact is phenotype is deceiving. But whats even more crazy is that the majority of AA admixture has NOT repeat has NOT been tested. Maybe only 35%. I agree that we are more than just Yoruba, European and Native American. ESPECIALLY on an individual scale.
Anyways do you have that study that shows AAs have significant Sahelian ancestry? Because I wanna post it somewhere.
Why would she look 50% European? I simply don't see it.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: ^ not to my knowledge, Clyde swears up and down that R1b was in the new world though... Iono though. Maybe Abu Bakr II was successful and found his way in the carribean, who knows.
I read about it as well.
The Abu Bakr legacy most likely is real. And everything is falling apart, or should I say in it's part coming together.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Although I didn't quite say what you said I did lmao I will throw you a bone anyways lol. There's no one study that says AA's have significant Sahelian Ancestry, however, Sahelian admixture wass noted in a series of studies...
is one of the main studies I had in mind when I posted above, talking about the overestimated post colonial European Admixture in Aframs.
quote: Furthermore, ADMIXTURE estimated that western RHG ancestry accounted for ~4.8% of the African ancestry of African Americans (Fig.4andfig.S19). Given that a direct RHG contribution to the slave trade is unlikely (tableS12) (10), this result further supports that a large fraction of the genome of African Americans derives from wBSPs, who themselves have ~16% western RHG ancestry (Fig. 4). Our results indicate that the ultimate African origins of African Americans are more diverse than previously suggested
I don't understand what you are talking about in relation to Sahelian-Sudanic people, or even Bantu people among AAs in relation to R1.
There were very few Sahelian-Sudani people sold into slavery in the Caribbean and Thirteen Colonies of the United States. The vast majority of the African slaves in the U.S., and Caribbean came from Cameroon, India, Mozambique the Senegambian and Guinea.
It was hard to reconcile the presence of R1 among Black Native Americans and AAs because the majority of Blacks did not come from the Sahelian-Sahara region, where many Blacks carry R1.
Everything changed with publication of "The genetic landscape of Equatorial Guinea and the origin and migration routes of the Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88", by Gonzalez et al.Gonzalez et al , made it clear R1 was found in Equatorial Guinea , and they argued that R1 probably spread across Europe from Iberia to the east given the distribution of R1 in Africa. Since the vast majority of the slaves in the 13 colonies came from this part of Africa it explained the high frequency of R1 among AAs.
The presence of R1 in West africa explains the discovery or R1 among the Zoutsteeg individuals, and AAs in the Caribbean and the United States.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: I don't understand what you are talking about in relation to Sahelian-Sudanic people, or even Bantu people among AAs in relation to R1.
There were very few Sahelian-Sudani people sold into slavery in the Caribbean and Thirteen Colonies of the United States. The vast majority of the African slaves in the U.S., and Caribbean came from Cameroon, India, Mozambique the Senegambian and Guinea.
It was hard to reconcile the presence of R1 among Black Native Americans and AAs because the majority of Blacks did not come from the Sahelian-Sahara region, where many Blacks carry R1.
Everything changed with publication of "The genetic landscape of Equatorial Guinea and the origin and migration routes of the Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88", by Gonzalez et al.Gonzalez et al , made it clear R1 was found in Equatorial Guinea , and they argued that R1 probably spread across Europe from Iberia to the east given the distribution of R1 in Africa. Since the vast majority of the slaves in the 13 colonies came from this part of Africa it explained the high frequency of R1 among AAs.
The presence of R1 in West africa explains the discovery or R1 among the Zoutsteeg individuals, and AAs in the Caribbean and the United States.
the Sahelian-Sahara region is large. The vast majority of blacks in this region do not carry carry R1.
Equatorial Guinea is a tiny coastal country presently comprised of less than a million people
______________________
Equatorial Guinea
Spanish and British empires
The Portuguese explorer Fernão do Pó, seeking a path to India, is credited as being the first European to discover the island of Bioko in 1472. He called it Formosa ("Beautiful"), but it quickly took on the name of its European discoverer. The islands of Fernando Pó and Annobón were colonized by Portugal in 1474.
In 1778, Queen Maria I of Portugal and King Charles III of Spain signed the Treaty of El Pardo which ceded the Bioko, adjacent islets, and commercial rights to the Bight of Biafra between the Niger and Ogoue rivers to Spain. Spain intended to gain access to a source of slaves controlled by British merchants. Between 1778 and 1810, the territory of Equatorial Guinea was administered by the Viceroyalty of the Río de la Plata, based in Buenos Aires. If these territories were still under control of Buenos Aires today, they would become overseas provinces of Argentina.
From 1827 to 1843, the United Kingdom had a base on Bioko to combat the slave trade, which was then moved to Sierra Leone upon agreement with Spain in 1843. In 1844, on restoration of Spanish sovereignty, it became known as the "Territorios Españoles del Golfo de Guinea". Spain had neglected to occupy the large area in the Bight of Biafra to which it had treaty rights, and the French had been expanding their occupation at the expense of the area claimed by Spain. The treaty of Paris in 1900 left Spain with the continental enclave of Rio Muni, a mere 26,000 km2 out of the 300,000 stretching east to the Ubangi river which the Spaniards had claimed .[2]
Spanish colonial territory
A 1903 stamp of Spanish Guinea At the beginning of the 20th century, the plantations of Fernando Po were largely in the hands of a black Creole elite, later known as Fernandinos. The British had settled some 2,000 Sierra Leoneans and freed slaves during their brief occupation of the island in the early 19th century, and a small current of immigration from West Africa and the West Indies continued after the departure of the British. To this core of settlers were added Cubans, Filipinos, Spaniards of various colours deported for political or other crimes, and some assisted settlers.
Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
^hmm, I though Northern Cameroon, South-Western Chad, North-Eastern Nigeria and Southern Niger was apart of the Sahelian/Sudanic belt... I guess I have to get my geography game up.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: I don't understand what you are talking about in relation to Sahelian-Sudanic people, or even Bantu people among AAs in relation to R1.
There were very few Sahelian-Sudani people sold into slavery in the Caribbean and Thirteen Colonies of the United States. The vast majority of the African slaves in the U.S., and Caribbean came from Cameroon, India, Mozambique the Senegambian and Guinea.
It was hard to reconcile the presence of R1 among Black Native Americans and AAs because the majority of Blacks did not come from the Sahelian-Sahara region, where many Blacks carry R1.
Everything changed with publication of "The genetic landscape of Equatorial Guinea and the origin and migration routes of the Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88", by Gonzalez et al.Gonzalez et al , made it clear R1 was found in Equatorial Guinea , and they argued that R1 probably spread across Europe from Iberia to the east given the distribution of R1 in Africa. Since the vast majority of the slaves in the 13 colonies came from this part of Africa it explained the high frequency of R1 among AAs.
The presence of R1 in West africa explains the discovery or R1 among the Zoutsteeg individuals, and AAs in the Caribbean and the United States.
the Sahelian-Sahara region is large. The vast majority of blacks in this region do not carry carry R1.
Equatorial Guinea is a tiny coastal country presently comprised of less than a million people
______________________
Equatorial Guinea
Spanish and British empires
The Portuguese explorer Fernão do Pó, seeking a path to India, is credited as being the first European to discover the island of Bioko in 1472. He called it Formosa ("Beautiful"), but it quickly took on the name of its European discoverer. The islands of Fernando Pó and Annobón were colonized by Portugal in 1474.
In 1778, Queen Maria I of Portugal and King Charles III of Spain signed the Treaty of El Pardo which ceded the Bioko, adjacent islets, and commercial rights to the Bight of Biafra between the Niger and Ogoue rivers to Spain. Spain intended to gain access to a source of slaves controlled by British merchants. Between 1778 and 1810, the territory of Equatorial Guinea was administered by the Viceroyalty of the Río de la Plata, based in Buenos Aires. If these territories were still under control of Buenos Aires today, they would become overseas provinces of Argentina.
From 1827 to 1843, the United Kingdom had a base on Bioko to combat the slave trade, which was then moved to Sierra Leone upon agreement with Spain in 1843. In 1844, on restoration of Spanish sovereignty, it became known as the "Territorios Españoles del Golfo de Guinea". Spain had neglected to occupy the large area in the Bight of Biafra to which it had treaty rights, and the French had been expanding their occupation at the expense of the area claimed by Spain. The treaty of Paris in 1900 left Spain with the continental enclave of Rio Muni, a mere 26,000 km2 out of the 300,000 stretching east to the Ubangi river which the Spaniards had claimed .[2]
Spanish colonial territory
A 1903 stamp of Spanish Guinea At the beginning of the 20th century, the plantations of Fernando Po were largely in the hands of a black Creole elite, later known as Fernandinos. The British had settled some 2,000 Sierra Leoneans and freed slaves during their brief occupation of the island in the early 19th century, and a small current of immigration from West Africa and the West Indies continued after the departure of the British. To this core of settlers were added Cubans, Filipinos, Spaniards of various colours deported for political or other crimes, and some assisted settlers.
yes it is a small country. Yes there are only a million people, because most of the people were sold into slavery.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: ^hmm, I though Northern Cameroon, South-Western Chad, North-Eastern Nigeria and Southern Niger was apart of the Sahelian/Sudanic belt... I guess I have to get my geography game up.
The majority of slaves sold from the Sahelian-Sahara region went to Brazil. The oldest Brazilian and Mexican slaves were from the Senegambian/ Guinea regions.
If you are interested in slavery in these areas Check out the following papers:
I'm just trying to figure out why there's confusion about R1b and sahelian or suprasaharan correspondence. Make it clear if you're trying to say "R1b developed in the belly of Africa", if that's what you're getting at, no need to add confusion.
I'm just pointing out that there's a possibility that the Afram post-colonialism European Autosomal Affinity is inflated.
-10.1038/ejhg.2009.231
^ I didn't realize the Arbitray border created by Europeans around northern Cameroon excluded that region from the Sahel. ToT lmao
For lurkers: Second image represents population density of R1b1a Carriers Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Equatorial Guinea By Oscar Scafidi
there's your M269 ^
whereas the V88 was local
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: ^hmm, I though Northern Cameroon, South-Western Chad, North-Eastern Nigeria and Southern Niger was apart of the Sahelian/Sudanic belt... I guess I have to get my geography game up.
The majority of slaves sold from the Sahelian-Sahara region went to Brazil. The oldest Brazilian and Mexican slaves were from the Senegambian/ Guinea regions.
If you are interested in slavery in these areas Check out the following papers:
Many African Americans have some degree of admixture with Europeans. Culturally, Louisiana Creoles are noted. in Brazil this has gone to a higher degree since the European rulers knew they were vastly outnumbered by non-whites and wanted this to happen. This is reflected in the DNA. As the world's population increases and transportation ever more available more of such mixing will be inevitable. Similarly in many countries wild dogs appear similar if left to nature they mingle with each other as opposed to sticking to selective breeding imposed on the domesticated dogs
Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
@Elmaestro
Well thanks anyways. Appreciate and keep up the good work.
@Ish Geber
A lot of coons and silly racists think a lot of blacks who look like her are heavily mixed or biracial when that is not the case.
@Clyde Winter
Actually most of the Sahelian/Senegambian slaves went to the USA especially GA and the Carolinas due to needing those slaves for rice cultivating. You are right that many went to Brazil however Brazil mostly got their slaves from Central Africa. As for Mexico, it hardly had a large slave population.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: "If you are interested in slavery..." Nah, lol.
I'm just trying to figure out why there's confusion about R1b and sahelian or suprasaharan correspondence. Make it clear if you're trying to say "R1b developed in the belly of Africa", if that's what you're getting at, no need to add confusion.
I'm just pointing out that there's a possibility that the Afram post-colonialism European Autosomal Affinity is inflated.
-10.1038/ejhg.2009.231
^ I didn't realize the Arbitray border created by Europeans around northern Cameroon excluded that region from the Sahel. ToT lmao
For lurkers: Second image represents population density of R1b1a Carriers
If you don't have background material about AAs how can you really understand the present?
It is this knowledge that will help you evaluate why , when and how R1 came into the Americas with African slaves. nothing happens in a vacuum.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: ^hmm, I though Northern Cameroon, South-Western Chad, North-Eastern Nigeria and Southern Niger was apart of the Sahelian/Sudanic belt... I guess I have to get my geography game up.
The majority of slaves sold from the Sahelian-Sahara region went to Brazil. The oldest Brazilian and Mexican slaves were from the Senegambian/ Guinea regions.
If you are interested in slavery in these areas Check out the following papers:
Many African Americans have some degree of admixture with Europeans. Culturally, Louisiana Creoles are noted. in Brazil this has gone to a higher degree since the European rulers knew they were vastly outnumbered by non-whites and wanted this to happen. This is reflected in the DNA. As the world's population increases and transportation ever more available more of such mixing will be inevitable. Similarly in many countries wild dogs appear similar if left to nature they mingle with each other as opposed to sticking to selective breeding imposed on the domesticated dogs
The slaves in the Louisiana area came with the French, they have different origins compared to the AAs from the English colonies. There was more race mixing among the French than the British.
.
quote:Originally posted by Red,White, and Blue - Christian: New Orleans by Maida Owens
When one mentions Louisiana, many people think only of New Orleans and neglect other regions of the state. Many misunderstandings exist about the distinct and complex culture that evolved in this metropolitan center. Since first inhabited by Native Americans, New Orleans, like Louisiana as a whole, has been governed by the French, Spanish, and Americans, with each making distinctive contributions. In addition, other ethnic groups, in particular Africans (both French speaking African Creoles and English speaking African Americans), Italians (primarily Sicilian), Germans, and Irish, have also made significant contributions to the cultural landscape of the city. Today, New Orleans is a multicultural metropolis with significant communities of Jews, Latins (from throughout the Caribbean, Central and South America), Greeks, Haitians, Filipinos, and Asians, including the largest concentration of Vietnamese in the United States (Cooke and Blanton 1981).
Contrary to popular stereotyping, New Orleans is not a Cajun town, even though many Cajuns moved to New Orleans after World War II and grew to dominate certain parts of town, such as Westwego and Marrero on the West Bank. The first and largest migrations of the French to New Orleans were not Acadian. French nobles and army officers blended with the Spanish to create a Creole community. Creole, as used in New Orleans, refers either to the descendants of the French and Spanish settlers or to people of French, Spanish, and African descent who were known as gens de couleur libres or free people of color. These two groups were culturally intertwined, yet maintained separate identities. Most Africans in Louisiana arrived as slaves from Francophone West Africa, but later some arrived as free people of color from the Caribbean. Two thirds of the Africans arriving before 1730 were from the Senegambia region of West Africa. Senegambia was home to many culturally related groups with similar languages, but most Africans brought to Louisiana during this time were either Wolof or Bambara (Hall 1992). After the Haitian Revolution of 1791 1804, another influx of Africans, including many free people of color, arrived by way of the Caribbean. Most of these Africans from the Caribbean were originally from Dahomey (now the Republic of Benin) and Nigeria (Hunt 1988).
The significant number of Africans from closely related cultures enabled them to retain many cultural traits and contribute to the Creole culture that was developing in New Orleans and south Louisiana. For example, the Haitians brought the shotgun house and the voodoo religion to Louisiana. The word "voodoo" is derived from the African word voudun which means "deity" in Yoruba or "insight" in Fon (Bodin 1990). Free people of color dominated many building trades in New Orleans, were often highly educated, and as chefs played an important role in the development of Creole cuisine for which the city is known (Reinecke 1985). Okra, an important ingredient of gumbo, and the word "gumbo" itself (derived from Bantu nkombo) are African.
After the Louisiana Purchase in 1803, Americans, referred to as Les Americains, arrived and settled upriver or uptown from the Creole district of downtown with Canal Street being the dividing line. Irish fleeing the potato famine of the 1840s settled in the area which became known as the Irish Channel between the Mississippi River and the Uptown Garden District. The 1850s saw another influx of Germans. After the Civil War, even more English speaking African Americans arrived to join the population of freed slaves. The distinction between African Creoles and African Americans began to blur after 1918 (Reinecke 1985:58 59), but still today Louisianans at times refer to people not descended from the French or Creole culture as Americans. Jazz played a role in this cultural fusion because ethnic groups that did not otherwise mingle were drawn together through jazz. African Americans, African Creoles, Italians, Germans, and Irish were all instrumental in the development of this new art form. In New Orleans, musical traditions range from brass jazz bands to African Creole and African American Mardi Gras Indians chanting call responses that have been called the most African of all musics found in North America. African American Delta blues and Latin salsa are some of the most frequently heard musics today in local clubs, along with the distinctive New Orleans rhythm and blues made famous by the likes of Fats Domino, Professor Longhair, and the Neville Brothers (Smith 1990).
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
North Carolina we have the Gullah people.
quote:Originally posted by Jo Nongowa: Further to my previous post:
The Gullah Language - Joseph Opala
The Gullah language is what linguists call an English-based creole language. Creoles arise in the context of trade, colonialism, and slavery when people of diverse backgrounds are thrown together and must forge a common means of communication. According to one view, creole languages are essentially hybrids that blend linguistic influences from a variety of different sources. In the case of Gullah, the vocabulary is largely from the English "target language," the speech of the socially and economically dominant group; but the African "substrate languages" have altered the pronunciation of almost all the English words, influenced the grammar and sentence structure, and provided a sizable minority of the vocabulary. Many early scholars made the mistake of viewing the Gullah language as "broken English," because they failed to recognize the strong underlying influence of African languages. But linguists today view Gullah, and other creoles, as full and complete languages with their own systematic grammatical structures.
The British dominated the slave trade in the 18th century, and during that period an English-based creole spread along the West African coast from Senegal to Nigeria. This hybrid language served as a means of communication between British slave traders and local African traders, but it also served as a lingua franca, or common language, among Africans of different tribes. Some of the slaves taken to America must have known creole English before they left Africa, and on the plantations their speech seems to have served as a model for the other slaves. Many linguists argue that this early West African Creole English was the ancestral language that gave rise to the modern English-based creoles in West Africa (Sierra Leone Krio, Nigerian Pidgin, etc.) as well as to the English-based creoles spoken by black populations in the Americas (Gullah, Jamaican Creole, Guyana Creole, etc.). All of these modern creole languages would, thus, fall into the same broad family group, which linguist Ian Hancock has called the "English-based Atlantic Creoles." This theory explains the striking similarities found among these many languages spoken in scattered areas on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean. It also shows that the slaves brought the rudiments of the Gullah language directly from Africa.
The first scholar to make a serious study of the Gullah language was the late Dr. Lorenzo Turner, who published his findings in 1949. As a Black American, Dr. Turner was able to win the confidence of the Gullah people, and he revealed many aspects of their language that were previously unknown. Dr. Turner found that Gullah men and women all have African nicknames or "basket names" in addition to their English names for official use; and he showed that the Gullah language, like other Atlantic Creoles, contains a substantial minority of vocabulary words borrowed directly from African substrate languages. Altogether, Dr. Turner was able to identify more than four thousand words and personal names of African origin and to assign these, on an individual basis, to specific African languages. But Dr. Turner also made the spectacular discovery that certain Gullah men and women, living in isolated rural areas of South Carolina and Georgia in the 1940s, could still recall simple texts in various African languages—texts passed from generation to generation and still intelligible! He identified Mende and Vai phrases embedded in Gullah songs; Mende passages in Gullah stories; and an entire Mende song, apparently a funeral dirge. Dr. Turner also found some Gullah people who could count from one of nineteen in the Guinea/Sierra Leone dialect of Fula. Although his Gullah informants knew that these expressions were in African languages, and in some cases knew the proper translation, they did not know which specific African languages they were reciting.
P.E.H. Hair, a British historian, later published a review of Dr. Turner's work in which he noted that Sierra Leone languages have made a "major contribution" to the development of the Gullah language. Dr. Hair pointed to the "astonishing" fact that all of the African texts known to be preserved by the Gullah are in languages spoken in Sierra Leone. Mende, which accounts for most of the African passages collected by Turner, is spoken almost entirely in Sierra Leone, while Vai and the specific dialect of Fula are found on the borders with Liberia and Guinea. But Dr. Hair also noted that a "remarkably large proportion" of the four thousand African personal names and loanwords in the Gullah language come from Sierra Leone. He calculated that twenty-five percent of the African names and twenty percent of the African vocabulary words are from Sierra Leonean languages, principally Mende and Vai. Dr. Hair concluded that South Carolina and Georgia is the only place in the Americas where Sierra Leonean languages have exerted "anything like" this degree of influence.
The Gullahs' African personal names and African vocabulary words include many items that are familiar in Sierra Leone today. The Gullah have drawn their African nicknames from various sources, including African first, or given, names; clan names; and the African tribal names of their ancestors. They use the masculine names Bala, Sorie, Salifu, Jah, and Lomboi; and the feminine names Mariama, Fatu, Hawa, and Jilo. The Gullah also use as nicknames the clan names Bangura, Kalawa, Sesay, Sankoh, Marah, Koroma, and Bah; and the Sierra Leonean tribal names Limba, Loko, Yalunka, Susu, Kissi, and Kono. Gullah loanwords from Sierra Leonean languages, used in everyday speech, include: joso, "witchcraft" (Mende njoso, forest spirit); gafa, "evil spirit" (Mende ngafa, masked "devil"); wanga, "charm" (Temne an-wanka, fetish or "swear"); bento, "coffin" (Temne an-bento, bier); defu, "rice flour" (Vai defu, rice flour); do, "child" (Mende ndo, child); and kome, "to gather" (Mende Kome, a meeting).
The Gullah language, considered as a whole, is also remarkably similar to Sierra Leone Krio—so similar that the two languages are probably mutually intelligible. Krio is, of course, the native language of the Krios, the descendants of freed slaves; but it is also the national lingua franca, the most commonly spoken language in Sierra Leone today. The West African Creole English of the slave trade era gave rise to both Krio and Gullah, as well as to many other English-based Creoles in West Africa and the West Indies. All of these languages, it must be said, share many common elements of vocabulary and grammar. Sierra Leone Krio expressions such as bigyai (greedy), pantap (on top of) udat (who?), and usai (where?) are found in almost identical form in Gullah, as well as in many other related Creoles. But the linguist Ian Hancock has also pointed to unique similarities between Krio and Gullah—features of vocabulary, grammar, and the sound system found in these two languages, but in none of the other Atlantic Creoles. These common elements include, among others, the Krio expressions bohboh (boy), titi (girl), enti (not so?), and blant (a verb auxiliary) which appear in Gullah as buhbuh, tittuh, enty, and blang. Dr. Hancock has argued, reasonably enough, that these unique similarities, as well as the many loanwords in Gullah from Sierra Leonean indigenous languages, must reflect a significant slave trade connection between Sierra Leone and the Gullah area.
We are now in a position to draw a clear picture of the language connection between Sierra Leone and South Carolina and Georgia. By about 1750 there was probably a local creole dialect spoken in Sierra Leone and, perhaps, on neighboring parts of the Rice Coast—a variant of the broader West African Creole English, but with its own unique forms and expressions. Some of the Rice Coast slaves taken to South Carolina and Georgia already spoke this Rice Coast dialect, and on the rice plantations their creole speech became a model for the other slaves. The Gullah language, thus, developed directly from this distinctive Rice Coast creole, acquiring loanwords from the "substrate languages" of the African slaves from Sierra Leone and elsewhere. In Sierra Leone, itself, the Rice Coast creole continued to flourish throughout the late 1700s, so that when the freed slaves, ancestors of the Krios, arrived at the end of the century, they found the language already widely spoken among the indigenous peoples along the coast. Indeed, slave traders' accounts from before the founding of Freetown make it clear that a form of creole English was already being spoken in Sierra Leone. The emerging Krio community adopted the local creole as its native speech, enriching it with new expressions reflecting the diverse backgrounds of the freed slaves. So, Krio and Gullah both derive from an early slave trade era Rice Coast creole dialect. Each language has gone its separate way over the past two hundred and fifty years, but even now the similarities are astonishing to linguists and laymen alike.
Finally, the word "Gullah," itself, seems to reflect the Rice Coast origins of many of the slaves imported into South Carolina and Georgia. Lorenzo Turner attributed "Gullah" to Gola, a small tribe on the Sierra Leone-Liberia border where the Mende and Vai territories come together. But "Gullah" may also derive from Gallinas, another name for the Vai, or from Galo, the Mende word for the Vai people. The Gullah also call themselves "Geechee," which Dr. Turner attributed to the Kissi tribe (pronounced geezee), which inhabits a large area adjoining the Mende, where modern Sierra Leone, Liberia, and Guinea converge. Given the Mende and Vai texts preserved by the Gullah, and the significant percentages of Mende and Vai names and loanwords in the Gullah language, these interpretations seem to have considerable merit.
^ From the perspective of a "layman" but one native to and a national of the Makona River Union (Sierra Leone, Guinea and Liberia), I can testify that the above article is a succcinct and accurate account of the genesis of the Gullah people in south-eastern United States.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: @Elmaestro
Well thanks anyways. Appreciate and keep up the good work.
@Ish Geber
A lot of coons and silly racists think a lot of blacks who look like her are heavily mixed or biracial when that is not the case.
@Clyde Winter
Actually most of the Sahelian/Senegambian slaves went to the USA especially GA and the Carolinas due to needing those slaves for rice cultivating. You are right that many went to Brazil however Brazil mostly got their slaves from Central Africa. As for Mexico, it hardly had a large slave population.
quote:Originally posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian: Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:30 pm Post subject:
The embarkation of the Portuguese into the Atlantic in the fourteenth century led to social and ecological transformations that brought sub-Saharan Africa within the orbit of European navigation. With the discovery of the Canary Islands in 1336, just one hundred kilometers from Morocco off the West African coast, the Portuguese found an Atlantic island archipelago inhabited by a people they called the Guanche. The Guanche, whose ancestors left the African mainland in repeated migrations between the second millennium B.C. and the first centuries A.D., were farmers and herders. They tended crops and animals originally domesticated in the Near East, which included wheat, barley, peas, and sheep and goats. But contact with Renaissance Europeans brought military defeat and enslavement. By 1496 the Guanche had ceased to exist, the first indigenous people to become extinct as a consequence of European maritime expansion. Heralding the fate that would await other peoples over the next 350 years, the islands of the Guanche became stepping stones for the diffusion of sugarcane plantations and African slavery throughout the Atlantic, a process that radically recast the relationship between Africa, Europe, and the Americas.
With the seizure in 1415 of Ceuta, located on the African side of the Straits of Gibraltar, the Portuguese established a foothold on the mainland, from where they launched reconnaissance voyages, sponsored by Prince Henry the Navigator. Over the next five years Portuguese mariners established two navigational routes for exploring West Africa, one along the coast from the mainland outpost at Ceuta, the other following the chain of Atlantic islands south from the Madeiras and the Canary Islands to the Cape Verdes, São Tomé, and Príncipe. The discovery of the Madeira Islands in 1420, named for their abundant forests, provided the fuelwood necessary to carry the expansion of sugarcane into the Atlantic, while the enclave established at Ceuta contributed to the growing familiarity of Portuguese mariners with the African coastline south from Morocco.
This was a barren coast that provided few terrestrial resources, albeit one whose offshore currents abounded in fisheries. Progress southward along this parched coastline over the next two decades as a consequence proved especially slow, but advanced rapidly when two Portuguese, Nuno Tristão and Dinis Dias, independently reached the Senegal and Gambia Rivers in the years 1444 and 1446. After hundreds of kilometers of barren coastline, the Senegal River presented a striking ecological divide, for at this point rainfall becomes just sufficient to support agriculture. One fifteenth-century Venetian chronicler, Cadamosto, memorialized the dramatic social and ecological transformation wrought by the Senegal River on the crews of Portuguese caravels: "It appears to me a very marvellous thing that beyond the [Senegal] river all men are very black, tall and big, their bodies well formed; and the whole country green, full of trees, and fertile; while on this side [Mauritania], the men are brownish, small, lean, ill-nourished, and small in stature; the country sterile and arid."
Talking advantage of abundant marine resources for food supplies, the Portuguese established a trading fort north of the Senegal River on Arguim Island off the coast of Mauritania in 1448. The location served to provision the quickening number of Portuguese forays southward along the coast. This resulted in the discovery of the uninhabited Cape Verde archipelago, fourteen small volcanic islands some five hundred kilometers west of Senegal, on one return voyage in 1455. By 1460 the Portuguese had completed reconnaissance of the Upper Guinea Coast, the densely populated region from Senegal to Liberia that would serve as a major focus for the Atlantic slave trade.
continues with much more.....
Early Descriptions of Rice Culture
Senegambia, the name given to the region encompassed between the Senegal and Gambia Rivers, was the first section of the Grain or Rice Coast reached by Europeans (Figure 1.1). South of the Senegal River along the Upper Guinea Coast, precipitation increases steadily. The dominant cereals adapted to semiarid conditions, sorghum and millet, grade into rice over the broad region extending down the Atlantic coast from the Gambia River to Liberia, the area that would become known as the Grain or Rice Coast. Decades before ships would reach India, the Portuguese chronicler Gomes Eanes de Azurara recorded the first European mention of rice in West Africa. In 1446 Stevam Alfonso reached the mouth of a large river—possibly the Gambia—where he encountered the cultivation of wetland rice on floodplains: "They arrived sixty leagues beyond Cape Verde, where they met with a river which was of good width, and into it they entered with their caravels ... they found much of the land sown, and many fields sown with rice ... And he said that land ... seemed like marsh."
Alvise da Cadamosto, who visited the Gambia River in 1455 and again the following year, remarked upon the significance of rice as a dietary staple: "In this way of life they conduct themselves in almost all respects similarly to the negroes of the kingdom of Senega [Senegal]; they eat the same foods except they have more varieties of rice than grow in the country of Senega."
By 1460, less than twenty years after the first caravel sailed past the Senegal River, Portuguese ships had completed reconnaissance of the one thousand kilometers spanning the Upper Guinea Coast as well as the Cape Verde Islands. From this period commentaries on rice become even more abundant. Journeying along the West African coast in 1479-80, Eustache de la Fosse observed the cultivation of rice along coastal estuaries as well as the active purchase of surpluses by Portuguese vessels. Duarte Pacheco Pereira similarly noted during travels in 1505-1508 that rice and meat were in great abundance in the region of Guinea-Bissau. Valentim Fernandes, a German of Moravian birth who worked in Lisbon with early Portuguese mariner accounts, recorded in the period 1506-1510 the active trade in rice, millet, milk, and meat among the Gambian Mandinka: "They eat rice, milk, and millet ... Poor people who don't have sweet potatoes, have rice ... Their food is like that of the Wolof [of Senegal] except that they eat more rice and they have so much that they take it to sell and exchange, also [palm] wine, oil, and meat and other foodstuffs. Because this Mandinka land is very rich in food like rice and millet, etc."
For most of the fifteenth century trading was confined to ships, but by the end of the century Portuguese and Cape Verdean traders were being admitted to some West African communities. Subsequent European scholarship assumed these same Portuguese navigators and traders introduced irrigated rice cultivation to Africans along the Upper Guinea Coast. Yet in this early period, the Portuguese were attempting to understand this form of rice cultivation. Attributing the sophisticated irrigated system to Portuguese tutelage in later centuries failed to question how they came by this presumed knowledge, nor did it accord with mariner accounts.
Along the coast south of the Gambia River to Sierra Leone, a distance of about five hundred miles, rice proved so abundant that Portuguese ships routinely purchased it for provisions, often from the non-stratified rice-growing ethnic groups like the Baga, with whom they initiated an early trade in indigo. When English privateer, buccaneer, and slaver John Hawkins raided an island offshore Sierra Leone in 1562 and 1564, one chronicler recounted: "The Samboses had inhabited there 3 yeeres before our coming thither, and in so short space have so planted the ground, that they had great plentie of mill [millet], rise [sic], rootes, pompions, pullin, goates ... In addition to seizing all the captives they could, the English stole all the inhabitants' grains and fruits they could conveniently transport."
The trade in rice along the African coast was extensive; ships increasingly depended on African cereal surpluses for their voyages. Rice sales were frequently brokered with female traders, as the Portuguese-African (Luso-African) trader André Donelha observed around 1625 in Guinea-Bissau, "and here the black women hold a market when ships are in port; they bring for sale rice."
Settlement of the Cape Verde Islands involved the import of slaves amid an active trade with the mainland that included a diverse array of commodities: gold, ivory, kola nut, melegueta pepper, cowhides, animal pelts, cotton, iron, dye wood, beeswax, and food staples. The Cape Verdes were a crucial trading entrepôt for the expanding commerce with Portugal; ships bound for long Atlantic voyages in the fall and winter headed there with the prevailing northeast winds and followed the southward flow of the Canary Current before continuing on to Brazil, the West African coast, or India.
As the slave population on the islands grew, African agricultural staples became the basis for subsistence, with surpluses often sold to ships. By the early 1500s rice was being planted on the Cape Verde island most propitious for agriculture, Santiago, along with other key African domesticates such as yams, sorghum, and millet. In 1514 rice appears on cargo lists of ships departing the Cape Verde Islands, and one record from 1530 mentions the deliberate export of rice seed to Brazil. Portuguese vessels carried nearly all the slaves that made the trip to the Cape Verde Islands and the Americas prior to the 1620s, and they left the region with provisions on board. After crossing the Middle Passage, these vessels routinely stopped in Spanish Jamaica and Portuguese Maranhão to replenish victuals before continuing on to slave markets elsewhere. With the arrival in Cape Verde of ships from other European nations in the last decades of the sixteenth century and the growing number of trading forts established along the coast, references to rice increase; both settlement and trade relied upon African cereals for food.
Because of their proximity to navigation routes, the first African rice systems to receive mention were the ones located in coastal estuaries as well as upstream along the river floodplains of Senegambia. These rivers are low-lying and affected by marine water in the lower seventy to one hundred kilometers. Venturing upstream in search of potable water and safe anchorage, the Portuguese came across tidal floodplain cultivation. Valentim Fernandes (c. 1506-1510) recorded the first description of rice cultivation along tidal floodplains: "From Cape Vert until here there are two rainy seasons and two rains each year. Twice they sow and twice they harvest rice and millet etc., knowing they will harvest in April and in September, and when they gather in the rice then they sow yams and these they cultivate year round."
Here rice was submerged by tidal flow. Fernandes's account confuses the presence of two harvests with two rainy seasons; the climatological and historical record shows that this part of Senegal, then as now, only experiences a single rainy season in the months from May/June to September/October. What his description alludes to, however, is the practice of flood-recession agriculture, sometimes known by its French name, décrue, which likely accounts for the two harvests he mentions. Flood-recession cultivation is a system of planting on the floodplain after the onset of the dry season, when the reduced volume in river water has caused available fresh water to retreat. As the account of Fernandes indicates, décrue planting on soils with stored moisture reserves occurred in late fall or early winter, with harvesting taking place at the height of the dry season in April or May. Flood-recession agriculture remains to this day extremely important in the Sahel, the region south of the Sahara Desert, and especially along the Senegal and Niger Rivers.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian: Original Investigation Y-chromosome lineages in Cabo Verde Islands witness the diverse geographic origin of its first male settlers Rita Gonçalves1, Alexandra Rosa1, 2, Ana Freitas1, Ana Fernandes1, Toomas Kivisild2, Richard Villems2 and António Brehm1
(1) Human Genetics Laboratory, Center of Macaronesian Studies, University of Madeira, Campus of Penteada, 9000-390 Funchal, Portugal (2) Tartu University, Estonian Biocenter, Riia 24, Tartu, Estonia
Received: 14 May 2003 Accepted: 16 July 2003 Published online: 26 August 2003
Abstract The Y-chromosome haplogroup composition of the population of the Cabo Verde Archipelago was profiled by using 32 single-nucleotide polymorphism markers and compared with potential source populations from Iberia, west Africa, and the Middle East. According to the traditional view, the major proportion of the founding population of Cabo Verde was of west African ancestry with the addition of a minor fraction of male colonizers from Europe. Unexpectedly, more than half of the paternal lineages (53.5%) of Cabo Verdeans clustered in haplogroups I, J, K, and R1, which are characteristic of populations of Europe and the Middle East, while being absent in the probable west African source population of Guiné-Bissau. Moreover, a high frequency of J* lineages in Cabo Verdeans relates them more closely to populations of the Middle East and probably provides the first genetic evidence of the legacy of the Jews. In addition, the considerable proportion (20.5%) of E3b(xM81) lineages indicates a possible gene flow from the Middle East or northeast Africa, which, at least partly, could be ascribed to the Sephardic Jews. In contrast to the predominance of west African mitochondrial DNA haplotypes in their maternal gene pool, the major west African Y-chromosome lineage E3a was observed only at a frequency of 15.9%. Overall, these results indicate that gene flow from multiple sources and various sex-specific patterns have been important in the formation of the genomic diversity in the Cabo Verde islands.
Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective Alexandra Rosa,1,2 Carolina Ornelas,1,2 Mark A Jobling,3 António Brehm,2 and Richard Villems1
Results The Guinea-Bissau Y chromosome pool is characterized by low haplogroup diversity (D = 0.470, sd 0.033), with the predominant haplogroup E3a*-M2 shared among the ethnic clusters and reaching a maximum of 82.2% in the Mandenka people. The Felupe-Djola and Papel groups exhibit the highest diversity of lineages and harbor the deep-rooting haplogroups A-M91, E2-M75 and E3*-PN2, typical of Sahel's more central and eastern areas. Their genetic distinction from other groups is statistically significant (P = 0.01) though not attributable to linguistic, geographic or religious criteria. Non sub-Saharan influences were associated with the presence of haplogroup R1b-P25 and particular lineages of E3b1-M78.
Conclusion The predominance and high diversity of haplogroup E3a*-M2 suggests a demographic expansion in the equatorial western fringe, possibly supported by a local agricultural center. The paternal pool of the Mandenka and Balanta displays evidence of a particularly marked population growth among the Guineans, possibly reflecting the demographic effects of the agriculturalist lifestyle and their putative relationship to the people that introduced early cultivation practices into West Africa. The paternal background of the Felupe-Djola and Papel ethnic groups suggests a better conserved ancestral pool deriving from East Africa, from where they have supposedly migrated in recent times. Despite the overall homogeneity in a multiethnic sample, which contrasts with their social structure, minor clusters suggest the imprints of multiple peoples at different timescales: traces of ancestral inhabitants in haplogroups A-M91 and B-M60, today typical of hunter-gatherers; North African influence in E3b1-M78 Y chromosomes, probably due to trans-Saharan contacts; and R1b-P25 lineages reflecting European admixture via the North Atlantic slave trade.
=================== As you can see R1b is in Guinea Bissau along with E3b. One study gives credit to the Sephardic Jews for E3b another gives credit to East Africa.
The posting above shows slavery was in place on American soil by 1565 under the Spanish in Florida and mentions a Mandingo with a Spanish name!
quote:Originally posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian:
Alex Haley Line - R1b Y Chromosme
11 November 2007
Honoring Our Ancestors: Haley Family of Roots Fame Joins the DNA Game, by Megan Smolenyak Smolenyak
Many of you have probably heard or read about the entry of Ancestry into the genetic genealogy world. And some of you may have also heard that one of the first in line to get tested by DNA Ancestry was Chris Haley, Director of the Study of the Legacy of Slavery in Maryland at the Maryland State Archives and –oh, yeah–the nephew of Alex Haley.
The Haley Line While we strongly associate the Haley name with “Roots,” the classic book that has inspired so many avid genealogists, that particular book isn’t actually about the Haley line. But “Queen,” a later book by Alex Haley and David Stevens, gives a brief accounting of this branch of the family tree:
“Following the common custom among slaves, Alec had taken the name Haley from his true Massa, although his real father’s name was Baugh. William Baugh was an overseer . . .”
Alec was the grandfather of Alex and the great-grandfather of Chris. And his father had been an overseer. So to the best of the family’s knowledge, the progenitor of the Haley line was of European origin, not African.
The Legacy of Plantation Life Those familiar with the dynamics of plantation society probably aren’t surprised by this. In fact, roughly twenty-five to thirty percent of paternal lines in African American families are actually European in origin. But until recently, there weren’t many options for researching this reality–especially since this is the kind of situation that rarely resulted in a paper trail.
But genetic genealogy is now offering a means to explore this, and Chris Haley decided to give it a go. If you’re curious about what’s involved in DNA testing, you can watch Chris take his test at this year’s FGS conference in Fort Wayne, Indiana, by checking out this brief and entertaining video. Aside from his other credentials, you’ll see that he’s quite a showman!
Preliminary Results Since Y-DNA is passed intact from father to son down through the generations, if the Haley family lore was correct, Chris, who is a direct-line male descendent of Alec Haley, should have tested as having a European haplotype or genetic signature. And sure enough, he did. He’s from haplogroup R1b, one commonly found in Western Europe. If you could visualize a paternal family tree of all of mankind, the R1b branch is actually the most pronounced in this part of the globe, so Chris has plenty of distant genetic cousins, as well as scientific confirmation of the long told family story. But what else could he learn?
Next Steps Chris has several options. He could leave it here, content to have learned more about his deep ancestry in the paternal branch of his pedigree. But when I walked him through his results, we discovered that he had a perfect match. Chris took a high-resolution test–forty-six markers–and there’s another person in the DNA Ancestry database who matches him. This means that the two of them share a common ancestor–and probably not too many generations ago.
This person has chosen to keep his identity private and is listed as “Anonymous.” That doesn’t mean that Chris is out to of luck. Ancestry offers an e-mail connection system that allows Chris to send a message to this person even though Chris doesn’t know his name or e-mail address. Then it’s up to this fellow whether he wants to communicate, but since most people get tested for the purpose of finding genetic mates, there’s a good chance that he will respond to Chris so the two of them can compare notes. This, then, is the logical next step.
Down the Road But even beyond that, there’s more that Chris can do. He can explore online public access databases (such as http://www.ybase.org/,http://www.ysearch.org/ and http://www.smgf.org/) to find more matches–particularly any sporting the Haley or Baugh surname–and exchange information with anyone he finds. And he could even use his genealogical detective skills to locate direct-line male descendants of any Baugh and Haley families known to have lived in the same location around the same time as his great-grandfather, Alec. If they agreed to get DNA tested, the matchmaking game could then be used to attempt to substantiate the family story of a Baugh male being the progenitor. It’s up to Chris what his next step will be, but he has plenty of options and lots he can possibly learn!
quote:Originally posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian: Original Investigation Y-chromosome lineages in Cabo Verde Islands witness the diverse geographic origin of its first male settlers Rita Gonçalves1, Alexandra Rosa1, 2, Ana Freitas1, Ana Fernandes1, Toomas Kivisild2, Richard Villems2 and António Brehm1
(1) Human Genetics Laboratory, Center of Macaronesian Studies, University of Madeira, Campus of Penteada, 9000-390 Funchal, Portugal (2) Tartu University, Estonian Biocenter, Riia 24, Tartu, Estonia
Received: 14 May 2003 Accepted: 16 July 2003 Published online: 26 August 2003
Abstract The Y-chromosome haplogroup composition of the population of the Cabo Verde Archipelago was profiled by using 32 single-nucleotide polymorphism markers and compared with potential source populations from Iberia, west Africa, and the Middle East. According to the traditional view, the major proportion of the founding population of Cabo Verde was of west African ancestry with the addition of a minor fraction of male colonizers from Europe. Unexpectedly, more than half of the paternal lineages (53.5%) of Cabo Verdeans clustered in haplogroups I, J, K, and R1, which are characteristic of populations of Europe and the Middle East, while being absent in the probable west African source population of Guiné-Bissau. Moreover, a high frequency of J* lineages in Cabo Verdeans relates them more closely to populations of the Middle East and probably provides the first genetic evidence of the legacy of the Jews. In addition, the considerable proportion (20.5%) of E3b(xM81) lineages indicates a possible gene flow from the Middle East or northeast Africa, which, at least partly, could be ascribed to the Sephardic Jews. In contrast to the predominance of west African mitochondrial DNA haplotypes in their maternal gene pool, the major west African Y-chromosome lineage E3a was observed only at a frequency of 15.9%. Overall, these results indicate that gene flow from multiple sources and various sex-specific patterns have been important in the formation of the genomic diversity in the Cabo Verde islands.
Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective Alexandra Rosa,1,2 Carolina Ornelas,1,2 Mark A Jobling,3 António Brehm,2 and Richard Villems1
Results The Guinea-Bissau Y chromosome pool is characterized by low haplogroup diversity (D = 0.470, sd 0.033), with the predominant haplogroup E3a*-M2 shared among the ethnic clusters and reaching a maximum of 82.2% in the Mandenka people. The Felupe-Djola and Papel groups exhibit the highest diversity of lineages and harbor the deep-rooting haplogroups A-M91, E2-M75 and E3*-PN2, typical of Sahel's more central and eastern areas. Their genetic distinction from other groups is statistically significant (P = 0.01) though not attributable to linguistic, geographic or religious criteria. Non sub-Saharan influences were associated with the presence of haplogroup R1b-P25 and particular lineages of E3b1-M78.
Conclusion The predominance and high diversity of haplogroup E3a*-M2 suggests a demographic expansion in the equatorial western fringe, possibly supported by a local agricultural center. The paternal pool of the Mandenka and Balanta displays evidence of a particularly marked population growth among the Guineans, possibly reflecting the demographic effects of the agriculturalist lifestyle and their putative relationship to the people that introduced early cultivation practices into West Africa. The paternal background of the Felupe-Djola and Papel ethnic groups suggests a better conserved ancestral pool deriving from East Africa, from where they have supposedly migrated in recent times. Despite the overall homogeneity in a multiethnic sample, which contrasts with their social structure, minor clusters suggest the imprints of multiple peoples at different timescales: traces of ancestral inhabitants in haplogroups A-M91 and B-M60, today typical of hunter-gatherers; North African influence in E3b1-M78 Y chromosomes, probably due to trans-Saharan contacts; and R1b-P25 lineages reflecting European admixture via the North Atlantic slave trade.
=================== As you can see R1b is in Guinea Bissau along with E3b. One study gives credit to the Sephardic Jews for E3b another gives credit to East Africa.
[QB] This graph comes from the full text version about Giuinea Bissau's Y chromosomes
As you can see clearly
E1b1b [formerly E3b Y chromosome] has reached West Africa's Atlantic coast and is seen in a variety of ethnic groups
The posting above shows slavery was in place on American soil by 1565 under the Spanish in Florida and mentions a Mandingo with a Spanish name!
Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
@Clyde Winters
Relax with the long texts especially with using OTHER peoples posts. Also we can't see the important points you want to make with all the text being bolded.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: ^hmm, I though Northern Cameroon, South-Western Chad, North-Eastern Nigeria and Southern Niger was apart of the Sahelian/Sudanic belt... I guess I have to get my geography game up.
The majority of slaves sold from the Sahelian-Sahara region went to Brazil. The oldest Brazilian and Mexican slaves were from the Senegambian/ Guinea regions.
If you are interested in slavery in these areas Check out the following papers:
lol smh dommeling.
Posted by Andromeda2025 (Member # 22772) on :
This is my first post here, I have been lurking for almost a decade on this site. I am more of a historian than a geneticist so I do my best to follow along with the current news on African/Egyptian DNA. However, more important to the subject of this thread is Sahelian influences in African American culture and why AA culture is different from Afro Caribbean/Afro Latino culture. One possibility might be the Sahelian founder effect, in the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade especially in North America, Sahelian slaves where the dominant population, later arrival of slaves from the windward coasts/slave coasts and Bight of Benin, and even later in the slave trade a minor majority would come from the Cameroon/Congo area. So the pre existing Afro American Sahelian culture was dominant and helped to enculture new arriving slaves from various regions.
The similarities between Fife & Drum and Chadic Troubadours is striking.
in the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade especially in North America, Sahelian slaves where the dominant population,
That is not true.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Quote:
Divergence time of the STM1 Y-chromosome lineage
Upon merging STM1 data with related modern Y-chromosome sequences, we estimated a splittime of roughly 8500 years between the STM1 lineage and the CLOSEST FULLY SEQUENCED Y CHROMOSOMES currently in the literature, a cluster of eleven R1b1c3-V35 sequences reported in a sample of 1204 Sardinians (42). To do so, we estimated the length of time between the STM1- lineage divergence and the emergence of R1b, and then we compared this interval to the age of R1b (Fig. S17).
Francalacci et al. (42) report a cluster of 29 R1b1c-V88 lineages from Sardinia. Though the terminal branch lengths from this study must be viewed with caution due the low-pass sequencing approach, the internal branches had high effective coverage due to the superposition of multiple sequences. …….). Consequently, approximately 103.1 (30 + 51 + 22.1) SNPs accumulated between the emergence of R1b and the time when the STM1 lineage diverged from R1b1c3-V35. Because this study was based on 8.97 Mb of sequence, whereas that of Underhill et al. (37) analyzed 10.35 Mb, we must scale the mutation period by a factor of 1.154. Thus, we estimate that this interval corresponds to 14.5 ky (103.1 SNPs ・ 1.154 ・ 122 years/SNP). Consequently, we conclude that it was approximately 8.5 kya that the Y-chromosome lineage carried by STM1 diverged from that carried by the 11 Sardinians.
Welcome to this forum. Also your posts look familiar. I THINK I might recognize you from another forum under a different username.
@Lioness
As an AA what he is saying is NOT off the mark. I dont know about AAs being mainly Sahelian however our culture unlike other Diaspora has its roots in Upper West African Sahelians and not lower coastal West Africans.
Also I would say about only 30% of AA admixture has been texted.
Posted by Andromeda2025 (Member # 22772) on :
quote:That is not true.
No? Explain why... I need quotes, studies and citations.
Thanks
Posted by Andromeda2025 (Member # 22772) on :
@blessedbyhorus
Thanks, I never said that AA's genetically majority Sahelian, but AA's culture is Sahelian dominant and different from Afro Carribbean/ Afro Latin.. As a person who is both AA & AC having one parent from each culture I can tell you this from DIRECT experience.
"It is estimated that over 50% of the slaves imported to North America came from areas where Islam was followed by at least a minority population. Thus, no less than 200,000 came from regions influenced by Islam. Substantial numbers originated from Senegambia, a region with an established community of Muslim inhabitants extending to the 11th century. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_States"
"Most African-American music isn't polyrhythm heavy like that which is found in among other people in the African diaspora, but mostly derived from the solo, string and wind based, heavily muslim influenced styles of Upper West Africa Sudanic/Sahelian region. More slaves came from this region in Africa to North American than any other place in the New World, due to the cotton, rice, and cattle culture and the land scape of North America. Thus slaves from this specific region in Africa were said to be more fit for the type of labor to be done in North America"
"A lot of people tend to have this ignorant misconception that just because there's not a heavy percussion based polyrhythmic aspect in North American African-American music, that it's not African, but European influenced, which isn't true in the slightest. Africa is a HUGE continent, in which there's not only one type of music cluster or style. The majority of our musical influences comes from the Upper West African Sahel & Sudanic savanna regions of Africa which utilizes a lot more simplistic cross-beat rhythm(which gives American music it's swing-feel) to accentuate the highly melosmatic wind and string instruments with a booming vocal/instrument harmony- All aspects of African-American music. While Afro-Cubans take the majority of their influence from Lower West African and Central African bantu music which IS very polyrhythmic & percussion based."
PH.d ethnomusicologist Gerhard Kubik, who is himself a European and Moya Aliya Malamusi a continental African, both had this to say about the Mississippi Delta blues(the purest form of blues music).....
"I have had difficulty detecting any significant European musical components in this style, aside from the use of Western factory-manufactured equipment."
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
^^^^Great post.
.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Andromeda2025:
in the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade especially in North America, Sahelian slaves where the dominant population,
That is not true. You are making a pseudoscientific claim here that Sahelian slaves where the dominant population that is contradictory to any of the thousands of books on the Transatlantic slave trade. So please dont make claims that are unique to you, have no support for the claims and then ask somebody to disprove.
You are doing the same pseudoscientific method that Clyde Winters, the idea that a theory is true unless somebody disproves it. That is not the scientific method. If you say flying elephants exist and I say they don't exist you can't say they do because I haven't checked the entire world and documented that there isn't one flying elephant out there.
You said "in the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade especially in North America, Sahelian slaves where the dominant population"
that means you need to support that because nobody else says that. Even Clyde said it was wrong
Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
@lioness knock it off. He's saying that Sahelian slaves were the more preferred slaves early on. This is TRUE if you actually study slavery in America. My family members on my mothers side are Carolinians and they all said slaves from that part of Africa were preferred because they were skilled in rice cultivation.
AA culture is Sahelian base which is why it is NOT drum heavy. This is known. However this does not mean AA people are mainly Sahelian. Afro-Brazilian culture is MAINLY Yoruba but they genetically are not mainly Yoruba.
More importantly he explained himself further in his recent post.
@Andromeda2025
Good post. I have used those sources many times to point out the Sahelian influence on early AA culture.
Posted by Andromeda2025 (Member # 22772) on :
@lioness
"that is not true
is a pseudo-scientific claim based on your own definition.
if you want to correct me please go ahead with numbers, facts, studies, and sources.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: [QB] @lioness knock it off. He's saying that Sahelian slaves were the more preferred slaves early on.
This thread topic is about population genetics not who white people preferred. But if you must speak on who was preferred by the slave masters>
The slave traders discovered that Carolina planters had very specific ideas concerning the ethnicity of the slaves they sought. No less a merchant than Henry Laurens wrote:
The Slaves from the River Gambia are preferr'd to all others with us [here in Carolina] save the Gold Coast.... next to Them the Windward Coast are preferr'd to Angolas.
In other words, slaves from the region of Senegambia and present-day Ghana were preferred. At the other end of the scale were the "Calabar" or Ibo or "Bite" slaves from the Niger Delta, who Carolina planters would purchase only if no others were available. In the middle were those from the Windward Coast and Angola.
The Jamestown settlement in the Colony of Virginia was the first permanent English settlement in the Americas.
The first Africans in Virginia in the 17th century came from the Kongo/Angola regions of West Central Africa. They were part of a large system established by the Portuguese in Africa to capture and supply slaves to the Spanish colonies in Central and South America. Two privateering vessels raiding in the Caribbean took some of the Af- ricans from a Portuguese ship and brought them to Virginia, where they sold them. The status of these early Africans as either servant or slave in Virginia is unknown.
Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
Brasil and many South American countries received captives from west Central &, southern-Central Africa, not Yoruba. -Bakongos from Angola etc. Primarily Bantu speakers.
Both sources I already know about. Thats not the point. The point is that Andromeda2025 said that Sahelian Africans had the most influence on AA culture. Also Central Africans were banned from mainland USA due to them being very rebellious. Which is one reason why their influence didn't last.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
Once again knock it off.
Thread is now going back onto topic.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
B.E: What do we hear when we compare Piedmont to Delta blues?
G.K: By some coincidence, Delta blues has processed a stronger shot of traits from the West African savanna and sahel zone than other blues styles, Texas, Piedmont, etc. Delta blues music has a high incidence of Arabic-Islamic style characteristics, which came to the United States with people deported from Mali, Niger, Mauritania, and other places in the 18th century. A problem with such comparisons, however, is that our basic recorded blues sampled just cover the 1920s to the 1940s, and our West African savanna recordings sample only begins more or less in the 1950s. We don’t really know what was there before, so our conclusions are all based on influences, assuming that certain characteristics of style such as melisma, declamatory vocal practice, total patterns, etc., would tend to be resistant to change.
Posted by Andromeda2025 (Member # 22772) on :
Ultimately, after reading this site for years I know that Euro-centrist true motivation is to maintain the great white hope of the "true negro" and Euro centrist mainly want AA's to carry that burden. However, it seams that AA's are very heterogeneous so good luck finding him/her.
Senegal, Gambia & Parts of Guinea are part of the Sahel Zone., Northern parts of Nigeria & Cameroon are also part of the Sahel.
Y Chromosome Lineages in Men of West African Descent Jada Benn Torres, Menahem B. Doura, Shomarka O. Y. Keita, Rick A. Kittles
The European colonization of the Americas used labor from west and west central Africa, initially in the U.S. as indentured servants and later enslaved. Although the exact number is unknown and highly contested, it is estimated by some historians that between 8 to 12 million Africans were brought to the Americas in the transatlantic slave trade. Of this total, the vast majority were sold to European colonies in Latin America, only 4.5% of the enslaved Africans were imported to the United States, 7.8% to Jamaica, and 0.03% to the US Virgin Islands [1], [2], [3].
Enslaved Africans came from or through major coastal regions that had been labeled by Europeans as the Grain Coast (consisting of Senegal, Gambia, Guinea, Sierra Leone and parts of Liberia), Windward Coast (Ivory Coast and Liberia), Gold Coast (Ghana west of the Volta River), Bight of Benin (between the Volta and Benin Rivers), Bight of Biafra (east of the Benin River to Gabon), Central Africa (Gabon, Congo, and Angola), and the southern coast of Africa (from the cape of Good Hope to Cape Delgado, including the island of Madagascar).
In the sixteenth through nineteenth centuries west and west Central Africa were home to a range of societies and cultures of varying social organization from so-called “stateless” (village focused) societies to kingdoms [4], [5], [6]. The Senegambian region, with a long history of technical expertise in rice agriculture and making indigo dye, included a number of ethnic groups [5], [6], and Muslim kingdoms under Mande [7], as well as Fulani rule such as Futa Toro, Futa Jallon, and Bundu [8]. Further east in Lower Guinea [5] were the Akan speaking peoples with likely cultural origins in the second century CE (common era) in local iron working and trading societies at Begho [9] within what is now Ghana. The Akan-speaking peoples were organized into kingdoms [5], most prominent among them being Ashanti in the south, known for its use of gold in artistic production. Further east were societies that may have been the descendants of the Nok culture dated to the last centuries BC [9]: these include kingdoms such as Benin, famous for its metal sculpture, Dahomey, and the Yoruba states [10]. Adjacent to the Yoruba the Ibo/Igbo peoples lived in southeastern Nigeria, site of the likely ninth century archaeological site of Igbo Ekwu with interesting locally done bronze sculpture, and numerous glass beads obtained in long distance trade [9]. West Central Africa was home to several societies (such as Loango, Ndongo, Luba, Kuba), and notably the Kingdom of the Kongo, which shared some common metaphysical beliefs between them, although the elite in the Kongo eventually accepted Christianity [4].
Historians report that the majority of enslaved Africans that were brought to the United States tended to be from Sierra Leone, Senegambia, and the Gold Coast, though Africans throughout the West African coast were also imported [1], [11], [12]. Within the British Caribbean, including Jamaica, a large proportion of enslaved Africans had origins from the Bight of Biafra. In the Dutch Caribbean, including what is now the US Virgin island of St. Thomas, many enslaved Africans were imported from the Bight of Benin [2]. Genetic data obtained from mitochondria and Y chromosome analyses support these findings for the British Caribbean [13].
The differences in origins of enslaved Africans are partially the result of preferences that European settlers had for different skill sets. Other factors such as availability and economic trends also influenced where enslaved Africans were obtained [2], [3].
Wax [12] reports that not only were the majority of Africans imported directly from Africa but also that Africans from the Gold and Windward coasts were among the most favored by European American colonists. Within the Caribbean, colonists apparently preferred Akan peoples over those from Angola [11]. Within South Carolina evidence indicates that Africans with skills in rice cultivation were in greatest demand. Several historians suggest that in South Carolina upwards of 40% of the enslaved originated from the “Grain coast” regions of Senegambia and Sierra Leone [14], [15], [16].
However, within South Carolina, as in the rest of the Americas, although the identities of African peoples were transformed, even lost, in the context of enslavement and forced acculturation they were not rendered totally invisible to historical research [8], [17] and cultural memory as evidenced by some Brazilians' and Cubans' abilities to speak Yoruba dialects.
Individuals of African descent within the Americas have varied African origins and did have interactions with non-Africans, namely Europeans and indigenous Americans. European ancestry entered this sociopolitical defined group due to a range of practices including voluntary concubinage, marriage, and forced relations. European males predominated in this exchange, but sometimes European females were also involved. These differences have likely resulted in different population genetic histories. There have been few comprehensive studies that attempt to explore the genetic genealogical origins of African descendant populations in the United States and the Caribbean [13], [18]. Those studies that do consider origins generally only consider the mitochondrial locus. Both Ely et al. [19] and Salas et al. [18], [20] for example examine the maternal genetic ancestries of African Americans. Their conclusions are largely congruent with the historical record that African Americans descend from west and west central African populations. Within South America, specifically Brazil, the genetic data support the same conclusion that African-Brazilians also have west and west central African origin [21], [22], [23], [24] as well as some from southeastern Africa.
In comparisons of genetic variation across the genome and across continental populations, the variation found outside of Africa by and large tends to be a subset of the variation observed within African populations [25], [26]. This is generally attributed to the African origin of our species [27], [28] and the serial founder effects as humans migrated from Africa. Relatively few studies have examined African genetic diversity [29]. Although some studies have specifically considered regional genetic diversity within west or central Africa [23], [30], [31], [32], [33], [34] they generally investigate the mitochondrial lineages. Less has been published about paternal genetic variation within west and central Africa.
In this study, we examine Y-chromosome genetic variation in African descendant populations. In addition, we search for genetic evidence of substantial Senegambian “Grain Coast” ancestry in African American males from South Carolina. Finally, we consider the paternal African origins of several African descendant populations throughout the Americas. In doing this we hope to not only provide a genetic perspective to compliment historical investigations into the issue of African geographical origins but also contribute to the understanding of the genetic structure of African American populations. Understanding the variation present in these populations has implicit ramifications on admixture mapping and association studies in this admixed politically defined ‘macro-ethnic’ group [35].
Visualization of the genetic distances in the MDS plots illustrates a strong geographical relationship between the African populations. Within the mega cluster of African populations, there is a geographical distribution of the populations. Groups from the Grain Coast generally fall together, as do groups from the Bight of Benin. One African American population, those from South Carolina, cluster with the African populations. Notably, the South Carolina population falls nearest to the Grain Coast populations. Ethnohistorical records indicate a relationship between African Americans within this region of the United States and West Africans from Senegal, Gambia, and Sierra Leone. Based on such records it has been suggested that many African Americans within South Carolina originate from the Grain Coast region of West Africa. Furthermore, Africans from this region were sought-after and imported to the Americas for their knowledge of rice cultivation [8], [15], [17]. The current study is the first to test this hypothesis using genetic data. The other African derived groups from the Americas form a separate cluster and are closest to one outlying African group from the Bight of Biafra. Given that Caribbean slave census records collected in the 19th century indicate that many individuals were from the Bight of Biafra, this result appears consistent with historical data
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025: @blessedbyhorus
Thanks, I never said that AA's genetically majority Sahelian, but AA's culture is Sahelian dominant and different from Afro Carribbean/ Afro Latin.. As a person who is both AA & AC having one parent from each culture I can tell you this from DIRECT experience.
"It is estimated that over 50% of the slaves imported to North America came from areas where Islam was followed by at least a minority population. Thus, no less than 200,000 came from regions influenced by Islam. Substantial numbers originated from Senegambia, a region with an established community of Muslim inhabitants extending to the 11th century. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_States"
"Most African-American music isn't polyrhythm heavy like that which is found in among other people in the African diaspora, but mostly derived from the solo, string and wind based, heavily muslim influenced styles of Upper West Africa Sudanic/Sahelian region. More slaves came from this region in Africa to North American than any other place in the New World, due to the cotton, rice, and cattle culture and the land scape of North America. Thus slaves from this specific region in Africa were said to be more fit for the type of labor to be done in North America"
"A lot of people tend to have this ignorant misconception that just because there's not a heavy percussion based polyrhythmic aspect in North American African-American music, that it's not African, but European influenced, which isn't true in the slightest. Africa is a HUGE continent, in which there's not only one type of music cluster or style. The majority of our musical influences comes from the Upper West African Sahel & Sudanic savanna regions of Africa which utilizes a lot more simplistic cross-beat rhythm(which gives American music it's swing-feel) to accentuate the highly melosmatic wind and string instruments with a booming vocal/instrument harmony- All aspects of African-American music. While Afro-Cubans take the majority of their influence from Lower West African and Central African bantu music which IS very polyrhythmic & percussion based."
PH.d ethnomusicologist Gerhard Kubik, who is himself a European and Moya Aliya Malamusi a continental African, both had this to say about the Mississippi Delta blues(the purest form of blues music).....
"I have had difficulty detecting any significant European musical components in this style, aside from the use of Western factory-manufactured equipment."
Music is only 1 aspect of culture. Sahelian music may have the more dominant influence in AA music but that doesn't necessarily mean it's same for overall AA culture. Afro-caribbean/latin cultures are also different among themselves. The differences in diaspora cultures in the americas seem mostly influenced by who the european colonizer was, geography and various other historical interactions rather than sahelian/non-sahelian origin.
Posted by africurious (Member # 19611) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: @Lioness
Both sources I already know about. Thats not the point. The point is that Andromeda2025 said that Sahelian Africans had the most influence on AA culture. Also Central Africans were banned from mainland USA due to them being very rebellious. Which is one reason why their influence didn't last.
I've never heard central africans being banned fro m the US. What's the source for that? In any case many central africans were taken to the mainland. For a time "kongos" were the largest group taken to south carolina and there's lots of central african influences such as putting glass bottles on trees, religion (the crossroads/kalunga concept. Some argue that's from the rice region of africa though), kicking and knocking (which may have been something similiar to capoeira), even the berimbau instrument (don't know what it's called in the US) was played.
Posted by africurious (Member # 19611) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Brasil and many South American countries received captives from west Central &, southern-Central Africa, not Yoruba. -Bakongos from Angola etc. Primarily Bantu speakers.
True, most of the slaves in s america did come from central Af but a whoooole lot of yorubas were taken to s amercia, especially Brazil. Yoruba religion is all over Brazil and Yoruba cuisine influence is prevalent in the north east.
Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
quote:Originally posted by africurious:
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Brasil and many South American countries received captives from west Central &, southern-Central Africa, not Yoruba. -Bakongos from Angola etc. Primarily Bantu speakers.
True, most of the slaves in s america did come from central Af but a whoooole lot of yorubas were taken to s amercia, especially Brazil. Yoruba religion is all over Brazil and Yoruba cuisine influence is prevalent in the north east.
You're right, I actually meant to say most captives in S.America were from Central-west African Bantus. But nonetheless cultures from those regions were/are relatively suppressed in the US are they not? I've heard of knocking and kicking, but haven't really seen it (outside of modern reconstruction). Come to think of it, didn't Gullah people from the south carry a peculiar form of Islamic culture to the US?
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro:
quote:Originally posted by africurious:
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Brasil and many South American countries received captives from west Central &, southern-Central Africa, not Yoruba. -Bakongos from Angola etc. Primarily Bantu speakers.
True, most of the slaves in s america did come from central Af but a whoooole lot of yorubas were taken to s amercia, especially Brazil. Yoruba religion is all over Brazil and Yoruba cuisine influence is prevalent in the north east.
You're right, I actually meant to say most captives in S.America were from Central-west African Bantus. But nonetheless cultures from those regions were/are relatively suppressed in the US are they not? I've heard of knocking and kicking, but haven't really seen it (outside of modern reconstruction). Come to think of it, didn't Gullah people from the south carry a peculiar form of Islamic culture to the US?
The African slaves belonged to the Maliki fiqh.
If you are interested in slavery and Islam in these areas Check out the following papers:
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Brasil and many South American countries received captives from west Central &, southern-Central Africa, not Yoruba. -Bakongos from Angola etc. Primarily Bantu speakers.
True, most of the slaves in s america did come from central Af but a whoooole lot of yorubas were taken to s amercia, especially Brazil. Yoruba religion is all over Brazil and Yoruba cuisine influence is prevalent in the north east.
You're right, I actually meant to say most captives in S.America were from Central-west African Bantus. But nonetheless cultures from those regions were/are relatively suppressed in the US are they not? I've heard of knocking and kicking, but haven't really seen it (outside of modern reconstruction). Come to think of it, didn't Gullah people from the south carry a peculiar form of Islamic culture to the US?
Gotcha. No, central Af cultures weren't suppressed in the US anymore than those from further north (at least as far as I know). Knocking and kicking is one of the many cultural practices that have died out in the diaspora. Capoeira in brazil might've died out too or come close to it if the fascist Brazilian govt didnt decide to promote it as part of its nationalist push. Even in American music the central Af influence is there. The slide guitar technique, for example, is just a way to make the guitar sound like a central Af instrument (I can't recall the name). Playing that instrument has perhaps died out in the last few decades (i'm not sure). Yea, some of the Gullah were muslims but they're a mix of several african groups. Historians say Gullah is just modified pronunciation of Ngola (Angola). And actually I was shocked to see a video of a ceremony from the Gullah region in which the berimbau from central africa was being played. Many of the central Af cultural traits in the US are detailed in Robert Thompson's book Flash of the Spirit.
Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
quote:Originally posted by africurious: I've never heard central africans being banned fro m the US. What's the source for that? In any case many central africans were taken to the mainland. For a time "kongos" were the largest group taken to south carolina and there's lots of central african influences such as putting glass bottles on trees, religion (the crossroads/kalunga concept. Some argue that's from the rice region of africa though), kicking and knocking (which may have been something similiar to capoeira), even the berimbau instrument (don't know what it's called in the US) was played. [/QB]
You need to research more on the early slave trade because its common knowledge that importation of slaves from Central Africa were banned early on. Due to them being the most rebellious and especially after the Stono rebellion.
quote:Over the next two years, slave uprisings occurred independently in Georgia and South Carolina, perhaps inspired, as colonial officials believed, by the Stono Rebellion. Conditions of slavery were sufficient cause. Planters decided they had to develop a slave population who were native-born, believing they were more content if they grew up enslaved. Attributing the rebellion to the recently imported Africans, planters decided to cut off the supply and enacted a 10-year moratorium on slave importation through Charleston. After they opened it up to international trade again, they imported slaves from areas other than the Congo-Angolan region.
In addition, the legislature passed the Negro Act of 1740 to tighten controls: it required a ratio of one white to ten blacks on any plantation. It prohibited slaves from growing their own food, assembling in groups, earning money, or learning to read. In the uncertain world of the colony, several of the law's provisions were based on the assumption that whites could effectively judge black character; for instance, whites were empowered to examine blacks who were traveling outside a plantation without passes, and to take action.[10] The legislature also worked to improve conditions in slavery; it established penalties for masters who demanded excessive work or who brutally punished slaves (these provisions were difficult to enforce, as the law did not allow slave testimony against whites.) They also started a school to teach slaves Christian doctrine.
At the same time, the legislature tried to prevent slaves from being manumitted, as the representatives thought that the presence of free blacks in the colony made slaves restless. It required slaveholders to apply to the legislature for permission for each case of manumission, which had formerly been arranged privately. South Carolina kept these restrictions against manumission until slavery was abolished after the American Civil War.
The legislature's action related to manumissions likely reduced the chances that planters would free the mixed-race children born of their (or their sons') liaisons with enslaved women, as they did not want to subject their sexual lives to public scrutiny.[12] Such relationships continued, as documented in numerous sources. For instance, by 1860 the 200 students at Wilberforce University in Ohio, established for blacks, were mostly mixed-race children of wealthy southern planter fathers.
Now named the Stono River Slave Rebellion Site, the Hutchinson's warehouse site where the revolt began was declared a National Historic Landmark in 1974. A South Carolina Historical Marker has also been erected at the site.
The Upper West African influence clearly overtoke the Central African one as drums were banned. Upper Sahelian West Africans not only influenced music but also food(rice, Guinean fowl,Virginia peanut soup,etc), architecture(look at New Orleans), language(Gullah), among many other things.
Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
Also the word "Gullah" most likely comes from the people "Gola" from Liberia-Sierra Leone.
Posted by africurious (Member # 19611) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
quote:Originally posted by africurious: I've never heard central africans being banned fro m the US. What's the source for that? In any case many central africans were taken to the mainland. For a time "kongos" were the largest group taken to south carolina and there's lots of central african influences such as putting glass bottles on trees, religion (the crossroads/kalunga concept. Some argue that's from the rice region of africa though), kicking and knocking (which may have been something similiar to capoeira), even the berimbau instrument (don't know what it's called in the US) was played.
You need to research more on the early slave trade because its common knowledge that importation of slaves from Central Africa were banned early on. Due to them being the most rebellious and especially after the Stono rebellion.
quote:Over the next two years, slave uprisings occurred independently in Georgia and South Carolina, perhaps inspired, as colonial officials believed, by the Stono Rebellion. Conditions of slavery were sufficient cause. Planters decided they had to develop a slave population who were native-born, believing they were more content if they grew up enslaved. Attributing the rebellion to the recently imported Africans, planters decided to cut off the supply and enacted a 10-year moratorium on slave importation through Charleston. After they opened it up to international trade again, they imported slaves from areas other than the Congo-Angolan region.
In addition, the legislature passed the Negro Act of 1740 to tighten controls: it required a ratio of one white to ten blacks on any plantation. It prohibited slaves from growing their own food, assembling in groups, earning money, or learning to read. In the uncertain world of the colony, several of the law's provisions were based on the assumption that whites could effectively judge black character; for instance, whites were empowered to examine blacks who were traveling outside a plantation without passes, and to take action.[10] The legislature also worked to improve conditions in slavery; it established penalties for masters who demanded excessive work or who brutally punished slaves (these provisions were difficult to enforce, as the law did not allow slave testimony against whites.) They also started a school to teach slaves Christian doctrine.
At the same time, the legislature tried to prevent slaves from being manumitted, as the representatives thought that the presence of free blacks in the colony made slaves restless. It required slaveholders to apply to the legislature for permission for each case of manumission, which had formerly been arranged privately. South Carolina kept these restrictions against manumission until slavery was abolished after the American Civil War.
The legislature's action related to manumissions likely reduced the chances that planters would free the mixed-race children born of their (or their sons') liaisons with enslaved women, as they did not want to subject their sexual lives to public scrutiny.[12] Such relationships continued, as documented in numerous sources. For instance, by 1860 the 200 students at Wilberforce University in Ohio, established for blacks, were mostly mixed-race children of wealthy southern planter fathers.
Now named the Stono River Slave Rebellion Site, the Hutchinson's warehouse site where the revolt began was declared a National Historic Landmark in 1974. A South Carolina Historical Marker has also been erected at the site.
The Upper West African influence clearly overtoke the Central African one as drums were banned. Upper Sahelian West Africans not only influenced music but also food(rice, Guinean fowl,Virginia peanut soup,etc), architecture(look at New Orleans), language(Gullah), among many other things. [/QB]
I asked for the source out of curiosity not to imply that you made up the ban. We're here to discuss/learn, no? It'd be interesting to know how faithfully they kept to that ban. I thought I'd read once that a guy imported slaves from central Af in the early 1800s to show that the general slave importation ban in the US was a farce. Also, another thing to note is that Louisiana was free to import central Afs as it wasn't under US rule during the legal slave trade. Many central Afs were brought there and the word "Congo" became almost another word for african giving us the famous Congo Square in new orleans.
Posted by africurious (Member # 19611) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: Also the word "Gullah" most likely comes from the people "Gola" from Liberia-Sierra Leone.
Oh yes I now remember I'd read that too. But the "ngola" derivation has also been made by historians. Scholars don't always agree. I don't have an opinion of which derivation has the stronger case. It may be "Gola" as you say.
Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
@africurious
My bad. Anyways, I am aware of New Orleans Central American population and Congo square. But still that does not prove anything because right before the Haitian revolution ended(1803), the French sold Louisiana to the USA.
Do you have a source for that guy? Because he seems like he was doing it illegally(which did happen and that ban seemed banning importation of all slaves), however they still preferred West Africans over Central Africans due to them not being as rebellious.
Either way Congo Square was just one location. The ban of Central Americans is evident in African-American admixture because the non-Central African admixture is more predominate from the many studies I've seen.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025:
in the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade especially in North America, Sahelian slaves where the dominant population,
That is not true.
Yes, it is true.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: @lioness knock it off. He's saying that Sahelian slaves were the more preferred slaves early on. This is TRUE if you actually study slavery in America. My family members on my mothers side are Carolinians and they all said slaves from that part of Africa were preferred because they were skilled in rice cultivation.
AA culture is Sahelian base which is why it is NOT drum heavy. This is known. However this does not mean AA people are mainly Sahelian. Afro-Brazilian culture is MAINLY Yoruba but they genetically are not mainly Yoruba.
More importantly he explained himself further in his recent post.
@Andromeda2025
Good post. I have used those sources many times to point out the Sahelian influence on early AA culture.
True,
quote:Enslaved women were more important than enslaved men because women were the primary farmers in agricultural societies and because enslaved women’s reproductive labor added new members to their masters’ kinship or lineage groups. In a number of precolonial societies, enslaved parents’ children were born free..
B.E: What do we hear when we compare Piedmont to Delta blues?
G.K: By some coincidence, Delta blues has processed a stronger shot of traits from the West African savanna and sahel zone than other blues styles, Texas, Piedmont, etc. Delta blues music has a high incidence of Arabic-Islamic style characteristics, which came to the United States with people deported from Mali, Niger, Mauritania, and other places in the 18th century. A problem with such comparisons, however, is that our basic recorded blues sampled just cover the 1920s to the 1940s, and our West African savanna recordings sample only begins more or less in the 1950s. We don’t really know what was there before, so our conclusions are all based on influences, assuming that certain characteristics of style such as melisma, declamatory vocal practice, total patterns, etc., would tend to be resistant to change.
I notice my Doxie dedication thread has been removed, for some odd reason. In it I had information on the history of the Banjo. The Banjo in one of the most important instrument(-s) in the history of enslaved Africans, into modern Tran-Atlantic musical styles.
Like in linguistics we can trace the origin of keynotes and chord progression.
quote: The African influence in the blues is undeniable. The poetic structure of many of the verses is similar to the Western African tradition of AAB poetry. The story like verses carries on the oral tradition of African cultures. As DjeDje points out in her article, many of the cultures of Africa made, and performed on instruments similar to what would be found in the Americas. Instruments like the balafon (xylophone), lute, drums, aerophones and fiddle like instruments would make the assimilation of this new music more transitional. Other performance practices are undeniably African as well. The earliest ‘blues’ music can be heard in the call and response type music known as field hollers. Slaves would communicate and ease the doldrums of their labor through improvised call and response songs. As these songs were sung during work they were often unaccompanied and completely original in their content. “On Southern plantations, the roots of gospel and blues were introduced in work songs and "field hollers" based on the musical forms and rhythms of Africa. Through singing, call and response, and hollering, slaves coordinated their labor, communicated with one another across adjacent fields, bolstered weary spirits, and commented on the oppressiveness of their masters.”[1] Scoops and bent notes are reminiscent of the quarter tone scale common in African music. The refusal to center fully on a pitch is common in blues music, as the performer instead begins above or below the note. This refusal or uncertainty about tonal center can be seen as a refusal of African musicians to fully conform to the European tradition they were forced into in the new America. The lowered pitches of the blues scale are also closely related to the African quarter tone scale. The flatted 3rd and 7th are uncommon in the European tradition and add an element that is completely unique to the music. Other performance practices, like playing the guitar with a knife blade or playing the banjo with a bottleneck would likely produce sounds similar to those produced from African instruments.
However, the blues are not solely defined by African customs and traditions. The melding of cultures together makes it impossible to ignore some common musical practices of the European tradition. The blues is centered around a strong harmonic progression, that comes directly from traditional European counterpoint. The use of the I (tonic), IV (subdominant) and V (dominant) is directly related to the fact that African musicians would have been exposed to these new sounds. The masters often expected the musicians to perform at ceremonies and gatherings for the white cultures, and playing in the European tradition wasn’t just expected it was demanded. The ability to learn this new style of music, only demonstrates how capable these new musicians really were. Also, the reliance on form is not just a European tradition, but one that is certainly stressed in the European study of music. The strict and simple time meter is a musical element that was taken from this new style of music as well.
The Mississippi tradition of the blues is characterized by embellished and bent notes. “Black men and women sang about themselves, played guitar with a knife blade, or blurred, embellished or bent notes when singing.”[2] The blues are believed to have begun in Mississippi, perhaps in a levee camp or logging camp or more likely on a plantation between 1870 and 1890. The tradition that would become the blues would go on to influence several other sub-genres of the blues as well as jazz and rock n roll. Another element of the blues that solidified during the early years in the Mississippi Delta is the 12 bar form that would define this genre of music. From something as atrocious as slavery, a musical genre as beautiful and diverse as blues was born.
The dual influences of cultures and traditions can easily be heard in many songs. For example the piece by Bessie Smith, “Black Mountain Blues,” the vocal smears and the poetic structure of the verse is reminiscent of African elements that were discussed earlier. The repeated vocal line AA followed by the third line B, is holding to the poetic tradition of Western Africa. The ensemble and harmonies are traditions borrowed not only from African tradition, but European tradition as well. The verses of this piece are a story being told, carrying on the tradition of the musician to pass on history orally. Another great example of African musical elements being transformed into a style of music is Robert Johnson’s “Walkin’ Blues.” The “holler” that Johnson uses throughout, the bent notes, scoops and style of playing the guitar are all examples of past traditions being used to form a new genre of music.
^Typo Tran-Atlantic =Trans-Atlantic
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by africurious: Music is only 1 aspect of culture. Sahelian music may have the more dominant influence in AA music but that doesn't necessarily mean it's same for overall AA culture. Afro-caribbean/latin cultures are also different among themselves. The differences in diaspora cultures in the americas seem mostly influenced by who the european colonizer was, geography and various other historical interactions rather than sahelian/non-sahelian origin.
The main problem here is that language, cultural expression, religion etc was prohibited by LAW.
So logically at several places they formed and adapted new local streams of culture(-s).
I know of pocketbook written somewhere in the early 70's, about a Surinamese delegation who went to Nigeria. The people saw instantaneously cultural similarities, especially in specific music styles (rithmetic drum play)
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Brasil and many South American countries received captives from west Central &, southern-Central Africa, not Yoruba. -Bakongos from Angola etc. Primarily Bantu speakers.
quote: When groups of people speaking different languages come together and intermix, a common improvised second language, called a pidgin, occasionally develops. It allows speakers of two or more non-intelligible native languages to communicate with each other. Subsequently, such a language can replace the settlers’ original language and become the first language of their descendants. Such languages are called creoles. The difference between pidgins and creoles is that people grow up speaking creoles as their first language, whereas nobody speaks pidgin as their first language. There is no single accepted theory that explains the genesis of creole languages.
[ 21. October 2020, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: Elmaestro ]
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025:
in the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade especially in North America, Sahelian slaves where the dominant population,
That is not true.
Yes, it is true.
in the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade or at any point, Sahelian slaves where not the dominant population
Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Brasil and many South American countries received captives from west Central &, southern-Central Africa, not Yoruba. -Bakongos from Angola etc. Primarily Bantu speakers.
Nice channel. The question would be, is there a consistent pattern between the Caribbean, Latin America and North America.
quote: When groups of people speaking different languages come together and intermix, a common improvised second language, called a pidgin, occasionally develops. It allows speakers of two or more non-intelligible native languages to communicate with each other. Subsequently, such a language can replace the settlers’ original language and become the first language of their descendants. Such languages are called creoles. The difference between pidgins and creoles is that people grow up speaking creoles as their first language, whereas nobody speaks pidgin as their first language. There is no single accepted theory that explains the genesis of creole languages.
Interms of where in Africa people were brought from? I'd like to believe not based on what I've learned, the only thing that's consistent is the mixing whether its various African populations mixing with each other or with Europeans and Natives. The dominant African culture varies between countries, though I have no proof to show how much cultural relevance correlates with genetic presence.
Also "Creole" is only creole till people forget it's creole. Language convergence been a thing since prehistory. If they want a theory about the "Genesis of Creole languages", then they have to drop the Creole part and look at the formation of languages in general.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025:
in the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade especially in North America, Sahelian slaves where the dominant population,
That is not true.
Yes, it is true.
in the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade or at any point, Sahelian slaves where not the dominant population
The Trans Atlantic Slave trade started after Timbuktu was destroyed.
quote: According to Zurara, Gonçalvez told his crew, “we have already got our cargo, but how fair a thing would it be if we, who have come to this land for a cargo of such petty merchandise, were to meet with good fortune and bring the first captives before the presence of our Prince?” That night, Gonçalvez led a raiding party into Cap Blanc, a narrow peninsula between Western Sahara and Mauritania, and kidnapped two Berbers, one man and one woman
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Interms of where in Africa people were brought from? I'd like to believe not based on what I've learned, the only thing that's consistent is the mixing whether its various African populations mixing with each other or with Europeans and Natives. The dominant African culture varies between countries, though I have no proof to show how much cultural relevance correlates with genetic presence.
Also "Creole" is only creole till people forget it's creole. Language convergence been a thing since prehistory. If they want a theory about the "Genesis of Creole languages", then they have to drop the Creole part and look at the formation of languages in general.
Creole is not just language, it is also culture. I have seen many cultural patterns between several diaspora African descendants (groups).
Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
I don't know whats Lioness point. As African-American its known to us who studied slavery that plantation owners preferred slaves from the Sahelian/SeneGambian area. I know this because my maternal grandparents state(the Carolinas) preferred those types of slaves for rice cultivation.
Again it does NOT repeat NOT mean they were the majority but that they were significant. African-American culture at its root is the only culture where Upper West Africans influenced our culture more so than Coastal West-Central Africans.
This is why people think our culture is "white-washed" because it was not polyrhythm heavy. But thats not true. And if anything American culture in general is African-American culture. But thats another story.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025:
in the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade especially in North America, Sahelian slaves where the dominant population,
That is not true.
Yes, it is true.
in the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade or at any point, Sahelian slaves where not the dominant population
The Trans Atlantic Slave trade started after Timbuktu was destroyed.
quote: According to Zurara, Gonçalvez told his crew, “we have already got our cargo, but how fair a thing would it be if we, who have come to this land for a cargo of such petty merchandise, were to meet with good fortune and bring the first captives before the presence of our Prince?” That night, Gonçalvez led a raiding party into Cap Blanc, a narrow peninsula between Western Sahara and Mauritania, and kidnapped two Berbers, one man and one woman
quote: With Portugal’s expansion into western Africa in the fifteenth century, Iberian merchants began to recognize the economic potential of a large-scale slave trafficking enterprise. One of the first to record this sentiment, according to Portuguese royal chronicler Gomes Eanes de Zurara, was a young ship captain named Antam Gonçalvez, who sailed to West Africa in 1441 hoping to acquire seal skins and oil. After obtaining his cargo, Gonçalvez called a meeting of the twenty-one sailors who accompanied him and unveiled his plan to increase their profits. According to Zurara, Gonçalvez told his crew, “we have already got our cargo, but how fair a thing would it be if we, who have come to this land for a cargo of such petty merchandise, were to meet with good fortune and bring the first captives before the presence of our Prince?” That night, Gonçalvez led a raiding party into Cap Blanc, a narrow peninsula between Western Sahara and Mauritania, and kidnapped two Berbers, one man and one woman. Another Portuguese mariner, Nuno Tristão, and members of his crew soon joined Gonçalvez. Although the raid resulted in less than a dozen captives, Zurara imagines in his account that prince Henry of Portugal responded to this enterprise with, “joy, not so much for the number of captives taken, but for prospect of other [countless] captives that could be taken.”
While Gonçalvez’s voyage in 1441 is widely considered to mark the beginnings of the trans-Atlantic slave trade, it may also be viewed as an extension of an older tradition of raiding and ransom on both shores of the Mediterranean. Upon returning to Portugal, Gonçalvez treated his captives in accordance with this custom, and allowed them to negotiate the terms of their release. Rather than offering a ransom of money, the captives promised to give Gonçalvez ten slaves in exchange for their own freedom and safe passage home. According to royal chronicler Zurara, the Berbers explained that these new captives would be “black [and] not of the lineage of Moors, but Gentiles.” Thus in 1442, Gonçalvez returned his Berber captives to Western Sahara, receiving as payment ten enslaved sub-Saharan Africans, whom he then transported back to Portugal for re-sale.
Does this mean in the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade especially in North America, Sahelian slaves where the dominant population?
No, it does not mean in the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade especially in North America, Sahelian slaves where the dominant population
Sahelian slaves were not the dominant population in the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade and this account of two berbers being captured and then returned in exchanged for "sub Saharans" didn't even involve America
Your post is wasting people's time, go dig for some more info about who were the early slaves into North America. Once you find it you won't post it because you are more interested in proving me wrong than addressing the issue
To say in the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade especially in North America, Sahelian slaves where the dominant population is misleading people about black history and now you are just adding to it
Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
The dominate slaves in mainland USA were Central Africans in the beginning but as I said before they were BANNED due to being very rebellious. After American slave owners looked towards slaves from the Mali, Senegal, Northern Nigeria and other Sahelian areas.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025: Ultimately, after reading this site for years I know that Euro-centrist true motivation is to maintain the great white hope of the "true negro" and Euro centrist mainly want AA's to carry that burden. However, it seams that AA's are very heterogeneous so good luck finding him/her.
Senegal, Gambia & Parts of Guinea are part of the Sahel Zone., Northern parts of Nigeria & Cameroon are also part of the Sahel.
Y Chromosome Lineages in Men of West African Descent Jada Benn Torres, Menahem B. Doura, Shomarka O. Y. Keita, Rick A. Kittles
The European colonization of the Americas used labor from west and west central Africa, initially in the U.S. as indentured servants and later enslaved. Although the exact number is unknown and highly contested, it is estimated by some historians that between 8 to 12 million Africans were brought to the Americas in the transatlantic slave trade. Of this total, the vast majority were sold to European colonies in Latin America, only 4.5% of the enslaved Africans were imported to the United States, 7.8% to Jamaica, and 0.03% to the US Virgin Islands [1], [2], [3].
Enslaved Africans came from or through major coastal regions that had been labeled by Europeans as the Grain Coast (consisting of Senegal, Gambia, Guinea, Sierra Leone and parts of Liberia), Windward Coast (Ivory Coast and Liberia), Gold Coast (Ghana west of the Volta River), Bight of Benin (between the Volta and Benin Rivers), Bight of Biafra (east of the Benin River to Gabon), Central Africa (Gabon, Congo, and Angola), and the southern coast of Africa (from the cape of Good Hope to Cape Delgado, including the island of Madagascar).
In the sixteenth through nineteenth centuries west and west Central Africa were home to a range of societies and cultures of varying social organization from so-called “stateless” (village focused) societies to kingdoms [4], [5], [6]. The Senegambian region, with a long history of technical expertise in rice agriculture and making indigo dye, included a number of ethnic groups [5], [6], and Muslim kingdoms under Mande [7], as well as Fulani rule such as Futa Toro, Futa Jallon, and Bundu [8]. Further east in Lower Guinea [5] were the Akan speaking peoples with likely cultural origins in the second century CE (common era) in local iron working and trading societies at Begho [9] within what is now Ghana. The Akan-speaking peoples were organized into kingdoms [5], most prominent among them being Ashanti in the south, known for its use of gold in artistic production. Further east were societies that may have been the descendants of the Nok culture dated to the last centuries BC [9]: these include kingdoms such as Benin, famous for its metal sculpture, Dahomey, and the Yoruba states [10]. Adjacent to the Yoruba the Ibo/Igbo peoples lived in southeastern Nigeria, site of the likely ninth century archaeological site of Igbo Ekwu with interesting locally done bronze sculpture, and numerous glass beads obtained in long distance trade [9]. West Central Africa was home to several societies (such as Loango, Ndongo, Luba, Kuba), and notably the Kingdom of the Kongo, which shared some common metaphysical beliefs between them, although the elite in the Kongo eventually accepted Christianity [4].
Historians report that the majority of enslaved Africans that were brought to the United States tended to be from Sierra Leone, Senegambia, and the Gold Coast, though Africans throughout the West African coast were also imported [1], [11], [12]. Within the British Caribbean, including Jamaica, a large proportion of enslaved Africans had origins from the Bight of Biafra. In the Dutch Caribbean, including what is now the US Virgin island of St. Thomas, many enslaved Africans were imported from the Bight of Benin [2]. Genetic data obtained from mitochondria and Y chromosome analyses support these findings for the British Caribbean [13].
The differences in origins of enslaved Africans are partially the result of preferences that European settlers had for different skill sets. Other factors such as availability and economic trends also influenced where enslaved Africans were obtained [2], [3].
Wax [12] reports that not only were the majority of Africans imported directly from Africa but also that Africans from the Gold and Windward coasts were among the most favored by European American colonists. Within the Caribbean, colonists apparently preferred Akan peoples over those from Angola [11]. Within South Carolina evidence indicates that Africans with skills in rice cultivation were in greatest demand. Several historians suggest that in South Carolina upwards of 40% of the enslaved originated from the “Grain coast” regions of Senegambia and Sierra Leone [14], [15], [16].
However, within South Carolina, as in the rest of the Americas, although the identities of African peoples were transformed, even lost, in the context of enslavement and forced acculturation they were not rendered totally invisible to historical research [8], [17] and cultural memory as evidenced by some Brazilians' and Cubans' abilities to speak Yoruba dialects.
Individuals of African descent within the Americas have varied African origins and did have interactions with non-Africans, namely Europeans and indigenous Americans. European ancestry entered this sociopolitical defined group due to a range of practices including voluntary concubinage, marriage, and forced relations. European males predominated in this exchange, but sometimes European females were also involved. These differences have likely resulted in different population genetic histories. There have been few comprehensive studies that attempt to explore the genetic genealogical origins of African descendant populations in the United States and the Caribbean [13], [18]. Those studies that do consider origins generally only consider the mitochondrial locus. Both Ely et al. [19] and Salas et al. [18], [20] for example examine the maternal genetic ancestries of African Americans. Their conclusions are largely congruent with the historical record that African Americans descend from west and west central African populations. Within South America, specifically Brazil, the genetic data support the same conclusion that African-Brazilians also have west and west central African origin [21], [22], [23], [24] as well as some from southeastern Africa.
In comparisons of genetic variation across the genome and across continental populations, the variation found outside of Africa by and large tends to be a subset of the variation observed within African populations [25], [26]. This is generally attributed to the African origin of our species [27], [28] and the serial founder effects as humans migrated from Africa. Relatively few studies have examined African genetic diversity [29]. Although some studies have specifically considered regional genetic diversity within west or central Africa [23], [30], [31], [32], [33], [34] they generally investigate the mitochondrial lineages. Less has been published about paternal genetic variation within west and central Africa.
In this study, we examine Y-chromosome genetic variation in African descendant populations. In addition, we search for genetic evidence of substantial Senegambian “Grain Coast” ancestry in African American males from South Carolina. Finally, we consider the paternal African origins of several African descendant populations throughout the Americas. In doing this we hope to not only provide a genetic perspective to compliment historical investigations into the issue of African geographical origins but also contribute to the understanding of the genetic structure of African American populations. Understanding the variation present in these populations has implicit ramifications on admixture mapping and association studies in this admixed politically defined ‘macro-ethnic’ group [35].
Visualization of the genetic distances in the MDS plots illustrates a strong geographical relationship between the African populations. Within the mega cluster of African populations, there is a geographical distribution of the populations. Groups from the Grain Coast generally fall together, as do groups from the Bight of Benin. One African American population, those from South Carolina, cluster with the African populations. Notably, the South Carolina population falls nearest to the Grain Coast populations. Ethnohistorical records indicate a relationship between African Americans within this region of the United States and West Africans from Senegal, Gambia, and Sierra Leone. Based on such records it has been suggested that many African Americans within South Carolina originate from the Grain Coast region of West Africa. Furthermore, Africans from this region were sought-after and imported to the Americas for their knowledge of rice cultivation [8], [15], [17]. The current study is the first to test this hypothesis using genetic data. The other African derived groups from the Americas form a separate cluster and are closest to one outlying African group from the Bight of Biafra. Given that Caribbean slave census records collected in the 19th century indicate that many individuals were from the Bight of Biafra, this result appears consistent with historical data
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: @africurious
My bad. Anyways, I am aware of New Orleans Central American population and Congo square. But still that does not prove anything because right before the Haitian revolution ended(1803), the French sold Louisiana to the USA.
Do you have a source for that guy? Because he seems like he was doing it illegally(which did happen and that ban seemed banning importation of all slaves), however they still preferred West Africans over Central Africans due to them not being as rebellious.
Either way Congo Square was just one location. The ban of Central Americans is evident in African-American admixture because the non-Central African admixture is more predominate from the many studies I've seen.
I’m not arguing that there were more W central afs in America than upper west af. It was obvious long before dna testing that more upper W Afs were taken to the US based on slave ship records. I’m arguing that W central Afs had a significant contribution to AA culture because they were taken in large #s both before and after the late 18th century ban on their importation. Laws mean nothing if they’re not enforced and America during the slave trade did not have the law enforcement capabilities it does today. Further, as the drug trade has shown, if there’s lots of $s to be made the trade continues. W central Afs were the vast majority of African slaves taken to Louisiana from 1763-1820 (see below quotes for example).
quote:Ironically, given the newly recovered visibility of Africans in pre-1820 Louisiana, especially in the Spanish period (1763-1803) when the region clearly was ‘‘re-Africanized’’ (and probably ‘‘Kongolized’’), the colonial slave trade to Louisiana is the least-documented of the North American trades.
quote: “Congo” was the generic name under which the slaves from Central Africa were designated in Louisiana and certainly the most frequent reference for slaves recorded on official documents. “Congo” became synonymous of “Africa” like “Guinen” (Guinea) in Saint-Domingue (Haiti). “Congo Square” or “Place du Congo” (now Louis Armstrong Park), the most symbolic place for Afro-Creole culture in New Orleans, was named so by the folks who, every Sunday afternoon, used to dance there in circles representing different African nations.
Another point is that the slave trade and the influences that formed AA culture are more complex than you seem to realize. You mentioned several times that african drums were banned as if that means the cultures where the drum was a major instrument then had no way to spread. Music is but one aspect of culture. And there’s something interesting with music… Blues is organized on the timing pattern of savannah W Afs (between the sahel and forest zones). It is also not polyrythmic as much of W and WC Af music is. But, Jazz which comes from Louisiana is based on the timing pattern of forest zone W Af and W central Af. The drum (the ban of which you placed great importance) is the base instrument of Jazz and all popular American music since, from rock n roll to hip-hop. All other instruments are then layered on top of the drums. Is it mere coincidence that African drums weren’t banned in Louisiana till the latter part of the 1800s? The drums in jazz and American popular music are euro-derived military drums (from the civil war) but they aren’t played or incorporated into American popular music like euros do. They are used as it’s done in Africa: the drum is the base instrument and keeps the timing (jazz uses the forest zone music note timing). Even though Lousiana was a fraction of the AA population it has an outsized, in fact the dominant, musical influence that formed the base of popular music among AAs and wider America for the last 100 yrs. And euro drums played the African way is a key feature. Go figure.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025:
in the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade especially in North America, Sahelian slaves where the dominant population,
That is not true.
Yes, it is true.
in the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade or at any point, Sahelian slaves where not the dominant population
The Trans Atlantic Slave trade started after Timbuktu was destroyed.
quote: According to Zurara, Gonçalvez told his crew, “we have already got our cargo, but how fair a thing would it be if we, who have come to this land for a cargo of such petty merchandise, were to meet with good fortune and bring the first captives before the presence of our Prince?” That night, Gonçalvez led a raiding party into Cap Blanc, a narrow peninsula between Western Sahara and Mauritania, and kidnapped two Berbers, one man and one woman
quote: With Portugal’s expansion into western Africa in the fifteenth century, Iberian merchants began to recognize the economic potential of a large-scale slave trafficking enterprise. One of the first to record this sentiment, according to Portuguese royal chronicler Gomes Eanes de Zurara, was a young ship captain named Antam Gonçalvez, who sailed to West Africa in 1441 hoping to acquire seal skins and oil. After obtaining his cargo, Gonçalvez called a meeting of the twenty-one sailors who accompanied him and unveiled his plan to increase their profits. According to Zurara, Gonçalvez told his crew, “we have already got our cargo, but how fair a thing would it be if we, who have come to this land for a cargo of such petty merchandise, were to meet with good fortune and bring the first captives before the presence of our Prince?” That night, Gonçalvez led a raiding party into Cap Blanc, a narrow peninsula between Western Sahara and Mauritania, and kidnapped two Berbers, one man and one woman. Another Portuguese mariner, Nuno Tristão, and members of his crew soon joined Gonçalvez. Although the raid resulted in less than a dozen captives, Zurara imagines in his account that prince Henry of Portugal responded to this enterprise with, “joy, not so much for the number of captives taken, but for prospect of other [countless] captives that could be taken.”
While Gonçalvez’s voyage in 1441 is widely considered to mark the beginnings of the trans-Atlantic slave trade, it may also be viewed as an extension of an older tradition of raiding and ransom on both shores of the Mediterranean. Upon returning to Portugal, Gonçalvez treated his captives in accordance with this custom, and allowed them to negotiate the terms of their release. Rather than offering a ransom of money, the captives promised to give Gonçalvez ten slaves in exchange for their own freedom and safe passage home. According to royal chronicler Zurara, the Berbers explained that these new captives would be “black [and] not of the lineage of Moors, but Gentiles.” Thus in 1442, Gonçalvez returned his Berber captives to Western Sahara, receiving as payment ten enslaved sub-Saharan Africans, whom he then transported back to Portugal for re-sale.
Does this mean in the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade especially in North America, Sahelian slaves where the dominant population?
No, it does not mean in the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade especially in North America, Sahelian slaves where the dominant population
Sahelian slaves were not the dominant population in the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade and this account of two berbers being captured and then returned in exchanged for "sub Saharans" didn't even involve America
Your post is wasting people's time, go dig for some more info about who were the early slaves into North America. Once you find it you won't post it because you are more interested in proving me wrong than addressing the issue
To say in the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade especially in North America, Sahelian slaves where the dominant population is misleading people about black history and now you are just adding to it
It is you who is waisting peoples time here, posting GARBAGE. This topic is not about North America, clown. It is your eurocentric GARBAGE which is trying to alter Africas history. The people have been deported to these slave coasts. That is what happened.
quote:
The early African experience in the Americas is marked by the transatlantic slave trade from ∼1619 to 1850 and the rise of the plantation system. The origins of enslaved Africans were largely dependent on European preferences as well as the availability of potential laborers within Africa. Rice production was a key industry of many colonial South Carolina low country plantations. Accordingly, rice plantations owners within South Carolina often requested enslaved Africans from the so-called “Grain Coast” of western Africa (Senegal to Sierra Leone). Studies on the African origins of the enslaved within other regions of the Americas have been limited.
—Jada Benn Torres1#, Menahem B. Doura2#, Shomarka O. Y. Keita3, Rick A. Kittles4
Y Chromosome Lineages in Men of West African Descent
quote: The oldest of the three empires, ancient Ghana at its height ruled territory comprising what we would now call Ghana, Senegal, Gambia, Mauritania, Guinea and Mali, located between two great rivers: the Senegal and the Niger. Timbuktu was founded during the dominance of the Ghana empire, in around AD 1100, by Sanhaja desert nomads, who had a tradition of camping near the Niger in the dry season and taking their animals inland to graze during the rainy season.
There are several explanations for the origin of the name of the famous city. One account suggests that, while the nomads were away, their belongings were entrusted to their slaves, one of whom was called Buktu. The campsite thus became known as 'Tim Buktu', meaning 'well of Buktu'. What began as a semi-permanent nomadic settlement evolved into town and, ultimately, into a city that, between 1100 and 1300, was a thriving economic centre.
Located at a hub of commercial exchange between Saharan Africa, tropical Africa and Mediterranean Africa, Timbuktu was a magnet that attracted both men of learning and men of commerce. It benefited from the gold trade coming from the southern reaches of West Africa – in the 14th century, approximately two thirds of the world's gold came from West Africa – as well as from the salt trade arriving via the Sahara.
We can now agree that many U..A. slaves came from the Western Sahel.
.
Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
@africurious
I already shown how Upper West Africans influenced AA culture outside of music. Hell Upper West Africans even influenced the cowboy culture here in America.
Second none of your sources even address how Central Africans influenced AA culture more than Sahelians. You brought up New Orleans again which we already KNOW had a large Congolese population.
Anyways the cowboy influence.
quote: The first major contribution by Africans to North American society was in the arena of cattle raising. When the Fulani (or Fula) people from Senegambia, along with longhorn cattle, were imported to South Carolina in 1731, colonial herds increased from 500 to 6,784 some 30 years later. These Fulas were expert cattlemen and were responsible for introducing African husbandry patterns of open grazing now practiced throughout the American cattle industry. Cattle drives to the centers of distribution were innovations Africans brought with them as contributions to a developing industry. Originally a cowboy was an African who worked with cattle, just as a houseboy worked in “de big House.” Open grazing made practical use of an abundance of land and a limited labor force.
Africans and their descendants were America’s first cowboys. Most people are not aware that many cowboys of the American West were Black, contrary to how the film industry and the media have portrayed them. Only recently have we begun to recognize the extent to which cowboy culture has African roots. Many details of cowboy life, work, and even material culture can be traced to the Fulani, America’s first cowboys, but there has been little investigation of this by historians of the American West.
Contemporary descriptions of local West African animal husbandry bear a striking resemblance to what appeared in Carolina and later in the American dairy and cattle industries. Africans introduced the first artificial insemination and the use of cows’ milk for human consumption. Peter Wood believes that from this early relationship between cattle and Africans the word, “cowboy” originated.
As late as 1865, following the Civil War, Africans whose responsibilities were with cattle were referred to as “cowboys’ in plantation records. After 1865, whites associated with the cattle industry referred to themselves as “cattlemen,” to distinguish themselves from the Black cowboys. The annual North-South migratory patterns the cowboys followed are directly related to the migratory patterns of the Fulani cattle herders who lived scattered throughout Nigeria and Niger. Not only were Africans imported with the expertise to handle cattle, but the African longhorn was imported as well, a breed that later became known as the Texas longhorn.
Much of the early language associated with cowboy culture had a strong African flavor. The word buckra (buckaroo) is derived from Mbakara, the Efik/lbibio work for “poor white man.” It was used to describe a class of whites who worked as broncobusters, bucking and breaking horses. Planters used buckras as broncobusters because slaves were too valuable to risk injury. Another African word that found its way into popular cowboy songs is “get along little dogies.” The word “doggies” originated from Kimbundu, along with kidogo, a little something, and dodo, small. After the Civil War when great cattle roundups began, Black cowboys introduced such Africanisms to cowboy language and songs.
As you keep bringing up Louisiana and keep forgetting(you were the one that mentioned it) that it was not apart of the USA at one point. And again Louisiana was just one area.
And Jazz did not have more of a influence on popular music than the Blues. The blues directly influenced Rock, R&B and then went on to influence other genres.
Hell it can be argued that the Blues influenced part Jazz.
quote:Anyone who’s listened to jazz can tell you the horns are pretty important. What you can probably not tell as much is how the sounds made by the horn sound a lot like Blues’ guitars. The twang and pitch of the guitars is replaced in Jazz by trumpets, trombones, and saxophones. On top of that, Jazz musicians use many of the unusual time signatures also present in Blues, though it takes it to a higher level.
quote:It Ain't Nothin' But the Blues traces the history and progression of blues music, from Mississippi Delta blues to the electric blues style of post-war Chicago. But what came after? Almost every genre of popular music today has, in one way or another, been influenced by blues music. Jazz, rhythm & blues, gospel, country and rock ‘n’ roll (and all music that would later spawn from these genres) are just a few of the styles that owe much of their progression and style to blues music.[B]
From the perspective of musical structure, [B]jazz as we know it would not exist without the blues. The twelve-bar blues chorus, with its familiar harmonic structure and narrative form, was the single most popular template for early jazz improvisation. Prominent jazz and folk performers like Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Miles Davis and Bob Dylan, among many others, were strongly influenced by the blues.
No offense but the Central African influence is overstated with the Sahelian influence(the stronger one) being ignored which is why many think AA culture is Europeanized.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
And just to inform the rest of you the difference is even noted between AAs(Sahelian influence) and Afro-Cubans(Central African influence).
quote:Afro-Cuban and African American music is very similar yet very different. Why? Because “essential elements of these two musics came from different parts of Africa, entering the New World by different routes, at different times, into differently structured societies” (Sublette, 159). These essential elements in African American music do not appear in Cuban music: swing and the blues scale. Cuban music contains elements of the clave (a rhythmic key) and “those undulating, repeating, melodic-rhythmic loops of fixed pitches called guajeo, montuno, or tumbao” (159). The reason for these differences was that they reflected two different musical styles that of Sudanic Africa and forest Africa.
Above are the percentages for African slaves taken to the US. Sahelians would’ve been found among Senegambians (19.7%), Gold Coast, Bight of Benin and Bight of Biafra (32.3% combined for last 3 goups). However, a good amount in Senegambian region were from the savannah. Even if you allocate all Senegambians to the Sahel, that’s only ~20%. Sahelians would’ve been few in # from the Gold Coast, Bight of Benin and Bight of Biafra. This was because there were many other people and polities in the forest zone and savannah who were the enemies of Ashanti, the Fanti, Oyo and the warring Yoruba kingdoms, Benin and Dahomey. In fact, these 3 regions were among the principal slave sources to the Caribbean and s America. So if one gave a generous estimate, Sahelians were a bit over 20% of Africans taken to the US. That isn’t much more than the overall # of Sahelians that were taken to the rest of the Americas as shown below. So supposed Sahelian dominance in #s or culture can’t explain the difference between AA and other Afro cultures of the Americas.
Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
^^^That is still not good enough as it seems to be based on ports. The Sahel does not just include Senegambia but also Northern Guinea, Northern Nigeria, Northern Ghana, Mali and Northern Cameroon.
Famous white Natchez Mississippi planter/slaver, William Dunbar, express that Mississippi planters held a preference for Africans from the interior, stating "there are certain nations from the interior of Africa the individuals of which I have always found more civilized, at least better disposed than those from the coast, such as Bornon, Houssa, Zanfara, Zegzeg, Kapina, and Tombootoo regions".
And once again like I said more numbers DOES NOT mean more cultural influence. Afro-Brazilian culture is mainly Yoruba influence however we know that based on admixture that they are mostly Angolan.
quote:Of the approximately 388,000 Africans who landed in America, almost 92,000 (24 percent) were Senegambians. In the early decades of immigration to the Chesapeake region before 1700, there were more immigrants from Senegambia (almost 6,000) than from the Bight of Biafra (about 5,000), and they totaled about 31,000 by the end of the migration, representing almost a third of all arrivals from Senegambia. About 45,000 Senegambians were settled in the coastal Low Country of the Carolinas and Georgia, where they constituted 21 percent of African immigrants. Senegambians were also prominent among African immigrants in the northern colonies, accounting for about 28 percent of arrivals, or over 7,000 people. Almost 9,000 Senegambians — often identified as Bambara or Mandingo — went to the Gulf region, especially to Louisiana, where they constituted about 40 percent of the population arriving from Africa. Hence, people from Senegambia were prominent everywhere in the United States, much more so than virtually anywhere else in the Western Hemisphere, although there were also considerable numbers of Senegambians in the French Caribbean islands and in French Guiana. Senegambia was strongly influenced by Islam, more so than any other region of origin, which means that many enslaved Africans in the United States had been exposed to Islam, more so proportionately than in the rest of the Americas. There were many Muslims in Brazil in the nineteenth century, mostly in Bahia, but they came from the central Sudan (northern Nigeria and adjacent areas), unlike those who were sent to the United States. Muslims were clearly present in both the low country of Carolina and Georgia and in the Tidewater region of Virginia and Maryland. Adult Muslim males stand out prominently, while there are very few references to Muslim women. This reflects what is known about the slave trade originating in the interior of West Africa, which was composed almost entirely of males."
^^^This source even states that Sahelians were more prominent in the USA than other parts of the diaspora. And other point raw numbers=/=percentage.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
It's cumbersome.
quote: Legal and philosophical arguments to address this issue began to evolve during the second half of the fifteenth century, once Portuguese mariners began to return to Iberia with captives acquired in West Africa and West Central Africa. Notably, the treatment of “black Gentiles” was addressed in 1452 and 1455, when Pope Nicolas V issued a series of papal bulls that granted Portugal the right to enslave sub-Saharan Africans.
Though the papal bull mentions “invading” and “vanquishing” African peoples, no European nation was willing or able to put an army in western Africa until the Portuguese colonization of Angola more than a century later (and even then, Portuguese forces received extensive aid from armies of Imbangala or “Jaga” mercenaries).
quote: The first European nation to engage in the Transatlantic Slave Trade was Portugal in the mid to late 1400's. Captain John Hawkins made the first known English slaving voyage to Africa, in 1562, in the reign of Elizabeth 1. Hawkins made three such journeys over a period of six years. He captured over 1200 Africans and sold them as goods in the Spanish colonies in the Americas.
To start with, British traders supplied slaves for the Spanish and Portuguese colonists in America. However, as British settlements in the Caribbean and North America grew, often through wars with European countries such as Holland, Spain and France, British slave traders increasingly supplied British colonies
The dominant rhythmic figure popular in New Orleans and performed on Congo Square during this time, with origins in many different slave musics of the Caribbean, is the three-stroke pattern known in Cuban music as tresillo (06). Louis Armstrong must have heard it plenty as a boy growing up mere blocks from Congo Square. In the post-Civil War period, African-Americans in New Orleans were able to obtain surplus military bass drums, snare drums, fifes, trumpets and saxophones. As a result, an original African-American fife and drum music arose, featuring tresillo and related syncopated rhythmic figures. “Tresillo is the most basic and by far, the most prevalent duple-pulse rhythmic cell in sub-Saharan African music traditions, and the music of the African Diaspora.” — David Peñalosa [07] And so it was in the brothels and bars of the red-light district of New Orleans where a potent combination of Blues, Ragtime, Quadrilles, Salon Music, Afro-Latin music, Native American music, European folk music and Marching Bands, played by multi-racial musicians who shared a passion for syncopation and improvisation, with discarded military brass and reed instruments, first came together to form what we know as Jazz.
The “tresillo and related syncopated rhythmic figures” mentioned in the article are what gives AA music “rythmn” and makes you want to move your feet, hips, butt and dance. It is why the popular joke exists in America about white people not having any rhythm and AAs having rhythm.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: It is you who is waisting peoples time here, posting GARBAGE. This topic is not about North America, clown.
Did you tell Andromeda2025 " This topic is not about North America" You did not, you are trying to pick a fight with me and now you have one
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Andromeda2025:
in the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade especially in North America, Sahelian slaves where the dominant population,
That is not true.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Yes, it is true.
Although there are overlaps between West Africa and the Sahel and variant definitions of the Sahel Sahelian slaves where not the dominant population and you can look at 100 books on the transatlantic slave trade and none of them are going to say that. Additionally slaves who were Muslims are estimated to be around 10%, or a high estimate of 15%
To make this statement
" in the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade especially in North America, Sahelian slaves where the dominant population"
is misleading and miseducates people on the history of the slave trade, period
it is not true at any point in time
and the word "dominant' here is vague and confuses things. People should admit to their error and forget about what I say about it
It is very peculiar how people are constantly trying to avoid West Africa and this can be seen in other discussions
So far africurious has backed his comment with honest data
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: @africurious
I already shown how Upper West Africans influenced AA culture outside of music. Hell Upper West Africans even influenced the cowboy culture here in America.
Enjoy,
This is a very rare video of the late Scott Didlake, 1948-1994, pioneer gourd banjo builder and the lost origin of the banjo researcher. He his talking at a Gourd banjo workshop during the Tennessee Banjo Institute event 1992 together with Mike Seeger and Clark Buehling..
The banjo's sound is synonymous with country, folk, and bluegrass—music as "white" as it gets. For many, it's the quintessential American instrument. Its origin, though, lies in Africa, in various instruments featuring skin drum heads and gourd bodies. Slaves fashioned them into the modern version in the colonial Caribbean, from where it traveled, via 19th-century minstrel shows, into the very heart of American popular culture. Duke University historian Laurent Dubois, one of the world's foremost experts on the Caribbean, traces the banjo's extraordinary trajectory and the part it has played in the very concept of America.
This program is presented in partnership with the John Hope Franklin Humanities Institute at Duke University.
Good post.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The modern banjo derives from instruments that had been used in the Caribbean since the 17th century by enslaved people taken from West Africa. Polyrhythmic drums? banned
quote:
Between 1500 and 1850, more than 12 million enslaved Africans were transported to the New World. The vast majority were shipped from West and West-Central Africa, but their precise origins are largely unknown. We used genome-wide ancient DNA analyses to investigate the genetic origins of three enslaved Africans whose remains were recovered on the Caribbean island of Saint Martin. We trace their origins to distinct subcontinental source populations within Africa, including Bantu-speaking groups from northern Cameroon and non-Bantu speakers living in present-day Nigeria and Ghana. To our knowledge, these findings provide the first direct evidence for the ethnic origins of enslaved Africans,
-- Genome-wide ancestry of 17th-century enslaved Africans from the Caribbean
Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
quote:Originally posted by africurious:
quote:Jazz and the birth of Rock ‘n Roll
The dominant rhythmic figure popular in New Orleans and performed on Congo Square during this time, with origins in many different slave musics of the Caribbean, is the three-stroke pattern known in Cuban music as tresillo (06). Louis Armstrong must have heard it plenty as a boy growing up mere blocks from Congo Square. In the post-Civil War period, African-Americans in New Orleans were able to obtain surplus military bass drums, snare drums, fifes, trumpets and saxophones. As a result, an original African-American fife and drum music arose, featuring tresillo and related syncopated rhythmic figures. “Tresillo is the most basic and by far, the most prevalent duple-pulse rhythmic cell in sub-Saharan African music traditions, and the music of the African Diaspora.” — David Peñalosa [07] And so it was in the brothels and bars of the red-light district of New Orleans where a potent combination of Blues, Ragtime, Quadrilles, Salon Music, Afro-Latin music, Native American music, European folk music and Marching Bands, played by multi-racial musicians who shared a passion for syncopation and improvisation, with discarded military brass and reed instruments, first came together to form what we know as Jazz.
The “tresillo and related syncopated rhythmic figures” mentioned in the article are what gives AA music “rythmn” and makes you want to move your feet, hips, butt and dance. It is why the popular joke exists in America about white people not having any rhythm and AAs having rhythm.
I don't know what this source is suppose to prove? The article does not even address how Jazz influenced Rock. Second all your sources always goes back to New Orleans which was just ONE African-American cultural area in America. And like I said Blues influenced part of Jazz.
quote:Blues musical styles, forms (12-bar blues), melodies, and the blues scale have influenced many other genres of music, such as rock and roll, jazz, and popular music.[127] Prominent jazz, folk or rock performers, such as Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Miles Davis, and Bob Dylan have performed significant blues recordings. The blues scale is often used in popular songs like Harold Arlen's “Blues in the Night”, blues ballads like “Since I Fell for You” and “Please Send Me Someone to Love”, and even in orchestral works such as George Gershwin’s “Rhapsody in Blue” and “Concerto in F”. Gershwin's second “Prelude” for solo piano is an interesting example of a classical blues, maintaining the form with academic strictness. The blues scale is ubiquitous in modern popular music and informs many modal frames, especially the ladder of thirds used in rock music (for example, in “A Hard Day's Night”).
The blues note is found literally everywhere in AA music. Can you show Central African influence beyond New Orleans?
Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The modern banjo derives from instruments that had been used in the Caribbean since the 17th century by enslaved people taken from West Africa.
quote:
Between 1500 and 1850, more than 12 million enslaved Africans were transported to the New World. The vast majority were shipped from West and West-Central Africa, but their precise origins are largely unknown. We used genome-wide ancient DNA analyses to investigate the genetic origins of three enslaved Africans whose remains were recovered on the Caribbean island of Saint Martin. We trace their origins to distinct subcontinental source populations within Africa, including Bantu-speaking groups from northern Cameroon and non-Bantu speakers living in present-day Nigeria and Ghana. To our knowledge, these findings provide the first direct evidence for the ethnic origins of enslaved Africans,
-- Genome-wide ancestry of 17th-century enslaved Africans from the Caribbean
What the heck are you talking about? The banjo largely comes from West African griots and the ancestor of the Banjo is still played in West Africa. Your source doesn't even mention the Banjo. What are you getting at?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: It is you who is waisting peoples time here, posting GARBAGE. This topic is not about North America, clown.
retarded jackass with reading comprehension issues Andromeda2025 brought up North America and I replied to it -and then you replied to it. Did you tell Andromeda2025 " This topic is not about North America" You did not, you are trying to pick a fight with me and now you have one, lame fool
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Andromeda2025:
in the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade especially in North America, Sahelian slaves where the dominant population,
That is not true.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Yes, it is true.
Although there are overlaps between West Africa and the Sahel and variant definitions of the Sahel Sahelian slaves where not the dominant population and you can look at 100 books on the transatlantic slave trade and none of them are going to say that. Additionally slaves who were Muslims are estimated to be around 10%, or a high estimate of 15%
To make this statement
" in the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade especially in North America, Sahelian slaves where the dominant population"
is misleading and miseducates people on the history of the slave trade, period
it is not true at any point in time
and the word "dominant' here is vague and confuses things. People should admit to their error and forget about what I say about it
It is very peculiar how people are constantly trying to avoid West Africa and this can be seen in other discussions
So far africurious has backed his comment with honest data
Sehalian people first the first to be enslaved by Europeans.
People have been taken to slave portals, what it so hard to understand about that?
"Although there are overlaps between West Africa and the Sahel and variant definitions of the Sahel" LOL
Sahelian slaves where not the dominant population and you can look at 100 books on the transatlantic slave trade and none of them are going to say that
Again, this is NOT about "North America".
So far Africurious has backed his comment with honest data. Yep, as you can see it shows the Sahel region. The Sahel is right below the Sahara.
Mod Edit
Relax with the insults please.
[ 24. June 2017, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: BlessedbyHorus ]
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The modern banjo derives from instruments that had been used in the Caribbean since the 17th century by enslaved people taken from West Africa. Polyrhythmic drums? banned
quote:
Between 1500 and 1850, more than 12 million enslaved Africans were transported to the New World. The vast majority were shipped from West and West-Central Africa, but their precise origins are largely unknown. We used genome-wide ancient DNA analyses to investigate the genetic origins of three enslaved Africans whose remains were recovered on the Caribbean island of Saint Martin. We trace their origins to distinct subcontinental source populations within Africa, including Bantu-speaking groups from northern Cameroon and non-Bantu speakers living in present-day Nigeria and Ghana. To our knowledge, these findings provide the first direct evidence for the ethnic origins of enslaved Africans,
-- Genome-wide ancestry of 17th-century enslaved Africans from the Caribbean
Northern Cameroon and north of Nigeria are Sahel.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Ragtime became the first nationally popular form of American music in 1899, when Scott Joplin's (1868-1917) "Maple Leaf Rag" enjoyed unprecedented success, selling over a million sheet-music copies. But ragtime was not new in 1899. Documents reveal that it was being played as early as the 1870s
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The modern banjo derives from instruments that had been used in the Caribbean since the 17th century by enslaved people taken from West Africa.
quote:
Between 1500 and 1850, more than 12 million enslaved Africans were transported to the New World. The vast majority were shipped from West and West-Central Africa, but their precise origins are largely unknown. We used genome-wide ancient DNA analyses to investigate the genetic origins of three enslaved Africans whose remains were recovered on the Caribbean island of Saint Martin. We trace their origins to distinct subcontinental source populations within Africa, including Bantu-speaking groups from northern Cameroon and non-Bantu speakers living in present-day Nigeria and Ghana. To our knowledge, these findings provide the first direct evidence for the ethnic origins of enslaved Africans,
-- Genome-wide ancestry of 17th-century enslaved Africans from the Caribbean
What the heck are you talking about? The banjo largely comes from West African griots and the ancestor of the Banjo is still played in West Africa. Your source doesn't even mention the Banjo. What are you getting at?
Logically, mainly because of Senegambians.
Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
The banjo's sound is synonymous with country, folk, and bluegrass—music as "white" as it gets. For many, it's the quintessential American instrument. Its origin, though, lies in Africa, in various instruments featuring skin drum heads and gourd bodies. Slaves fashioned them into the modern version in the colonial Caribbean, from where it traveled, via 19th-century minstrel shows, into the very heart of American popular culture. Duke University historian Laurent Dubois, one of the world's foremost experts on the Caribbean, traces the banjo's extraordinary trajectory and the part it has played in the very concept of America.
This program is presented in partnership with the John Hope Franklin Humanities Institute at Duke University.
28:33 and on wards is gold. Nice post man. They mentioned Sir Han Sloan's trips to Jamaica. funfact Sloan also mentioned the first uses of Cocoa being used in a drink... essentially the origins of Chocolate milk being Jamaican. 10.1215/01642472-1210274
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
Diego Columbus was nearly killed by Wolofs during a slave revolt on the island of Hispaniola (this slave revolt was the very first revolt in the Americas)
Posted by Andromeda2025 (Member # 22772) on :
First of all, the western Sahel is in West Africa, no one is avoiding "west Africa or west central Africa." The question is why is African American culture while having commonalities and shared traits, "different" from Afro Caribbean and Afro Latin cultures. It is important to know American history and the chronological theft of Native American lands, ethnic cleansing of indigenous peoples, white indentured servitude and the gradual implementation of African slavery in the Anglo colonies of N.A .
For the English, their colonial gangster ism begins in the northern states or early colonies. The Spanish still had Florida. There where the Cherokee's and Creeks along the South Carolina & Georgia coast. Louisiana is still in the hands of the French The purchase won't be made until 1803. So timing is everything. From 1641 until after the Revolution 1776 is 125 years! This is more than enough time for the first English American slaves to develop a "culture" which trended more toward ( not all) but more toward Senegambia and Upper Guinea. If you look @Ish Gabor's image, " North America" which include New York, New Jersey, & Pennsylvania and the rest of the New England states, the SeneGambian's are dominant. Oh yes and the reason American culture is so damn African is because if you look at population studies, in the early colonies African's where the majority or a slight minority.
In 1641, Massachusetts became the first colony to authorize slavery through enacted law
In 1654, John Casor, a black indentured servant in colonial Virginia, was the first man to be declared a slave in a civil case
During most of the British colonial period, slavery existed in all the colonies. In 1703, more than 42 percent of New York City households held slaves
In South Carolina in 1720, about 65% of the population consisted of enslaved people
In 1735, the Georgia Trustees enacted a law to prohibit slavery in the new colony.
In most regions, during the colonial period when Africans were adapting their cultural patterns to the new environment, they like other people coming to America before 1750 were less likely to be of diverse origins (Eltis et al 2001; Walsh 2001). However, over time people from different regions of Africa arrived, which resulted in the mixing of peoples. Based upon these findings as well as recent archeology of African American sites from the colonial period, historical interpretations of colonial life among Africans need to revisit notions of Africans being unable to communicate with one another, or being randomly distributed in the colonies https://www.nps.gov/ethnography/aah/AAheritage/histContextsD.htm
The United States Constitution, adopted in 1787, prevented Congress from completely banning the importation of slaves until 1808, although Congress regulated it in the Slave Trade Act of 1794, and in subsequent Acts in 1800 and 1803.[60] After the Revolution, numerous states individually passed laws against importing slaves. By contrast, the states of Georgia and South Carolina reopened their trade due to demand by their upland planters, who were developing new cotton plantations: Georgia from 1800 until December 31, 1807, and South Carolina from 1804. In that period, Charleston traders imported about 75,000 slaves, more than were brought to South Carolina in the 75 years before the Revolution.[106] Approximately 30,000 were imported to Georgia.
250,000 new slaves arrived in the United States from 1787 to 1808, a number equal to the entire slave importation of the colonial period.
Throughout the 18th century, approximately three quarters of the Africans arriving in the Upper Chesapeake as well as in the region around the lower James River came from the upper parts of the West African coast, from Senagambia on the north to the Windward and Gold Coasts, an area which included present day Senegal down along the coast ending in the area of present day Ghana (Walsh 2001:31). Most Africans arrived in the lower James area by way of the intra-Atlantic coastal slave trade from the West Indies, which probably accounts for ethnic diversity of Africans enslaved there.
Tobacco Plantations (established in the 1600's) Rice Plantations (established in the 1700's) Indigo Plantations (established in the 1700's) Cotton Plantations (established in the 1800's) Sugar Plantations (established in the 1800's)
Fewer than 350,000 enslaved people were imported into the Thirteen Colonies and the U.S, constituting less than 5% of all slaves imported from Africa .
cotton was not grown on Southern plantations until 1793
So the large importation of Angolans where late in the 17th Century to lower South Carolina & Georgia, because of King Cotton. This is already late in the game to have a "large affect" on established African American slaves and culture. Slavery would end only 70 years later.
The number of enslaved people in the US grew rapidly, reaching 4 million by the 1860 Census. From 1770 until 1860, the rate of natural growth of North American enslaved people was much greater than for the population of any nation in Europe, and it was nearly twice as rapid as that of England
In 1763 when France ceded Louisiana to the Spanish there were 46,000 African people enslaved there as compared to 36,500 free persons, mostly white (Hall: 1992:29–55). Most of these Africans came from points north of the Windward Coast and many had originally disembarked in St. Domingue (Hall, 1992). As high as these population data seem, the majority of all Africans imported in North America during the colonial period were enslaved in the Chesapeake and Low Country regions. Read more about people enslaved in French America. North of the Windward Coast is in the general area of the Sahel.
Here is the truth "people" like lioness and others who are very fragile and are foot soldiers for the elite want the image of African Americans to fit a stereotype perpetuated by the human traffickers because in their own mind it dehumanizes and keeps blacks in their "place". Global white supremacy is maintained through the oppression of African Americans and the African American image by proxy. So these foot soldiers want to POLICE what African Americans believe about themselves. I don't even like going through this much trouble for a post, because in the end soldiers will move the goal posts. I know what I know about African American culture because I don't know I am African American?
Posted by africurious (Member # 19611) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: ^^^That is still not good enough as it seems to be based on ports. The Sahel does not just include Senegambia but also Northern Guinea, Northern Nigeria, Northern Ghana, Mali and Northern Cameroon.
They weren’t put on flights so they had to come through the ports to get to the US and we have a great idea of the ethnicities that came through which ports. Those groups you mentioned above were a small minority. That’s just a function of geography (savannah/forrest zones closer to coast) and the warfare/power dynamics of the regions.
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: Famous white Natchez Mississippi planter/slaver, William Dunbar, express that Mississippi planters held a preference for Africans from the interior, stating "there are certain nations from the interior of Africa the individuals of which I have always found more civilized, at least better disposed than those from the coast, such as Bornon, Houssa, Zanfara, Zegzeg, Kapina, and Tombootoo regions".
Many planters and regions had their favored source for slaves. I’ve posted data on where the slaves to America came from. Let me know how tonnes of those northern groups would’ve gotten to the US based on the data. Or post other data you feel is significantly more accurate.
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: And once again like I said more numbers DOES NOT mean more cultural influence. Afro-Brazilian culture is mainly Yoruba influence however we know that based on admixture that they are mostly Angolan.
I wholeheartedly agree with you here. That’s the pt I was trying to make also when I discussed W central Afs. But, actually you’re wrong: Yoruba isn’t the main cultural influence in Brazil. It might be the dominant influence in certain areas of NE Brazil (ex: Bahia) where Yorubas were concentrated but not the country as a whole. I used to think that as well until my professor hipped me to the truth and I read up on it years ago. W central Af is the dominant source culture in Brazil more than perhaps anywhere else in the americas. The national music of Brazil is from there (Samba and all the other popular music forms), the national sport capoeira is from there, the most popular non-euro religions are from there (Umbanda and Espiritismo). Foreigners are just more familiar with the more overt Africanness of places like Bahia where Yoruba religion (Candomble) is prominent. But Umbanda and Espiritismo are likely more common:
quote:”Though statistics report that Candomblé and other African-derived religious participants are few in number—under 5% of the population—this fails to reflect the many Brazilians who are not initiates but who nonetheless may visit a practitioners (such as a healer), perhaps to address a challenge around health, money, or love. In fact, the 2010 census found that 13% of the Brazilian population claim to have more than one religion, usually Catholic and Umbanda or Catholic and Spiritist.” https://rlp.hds.harvard.edu/faq/african-derived-religions-brazil
I I
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: Of the approximately 388,000 Africans who landed in America, almost 92,000 (24 percent) were Senegambians. In the early decades of immigration to the Chesapeake region before 1700, there were more immigrants from Senegambia (almost 6,000) than from the Bight of Biafra (about 5,000), and they totaled about 31,000 by the end of the migration, representing almost a third of all arrivals from Senegambia. About 45,000 Senegambians were settled in the coastal Low Country of the Carolinas and Georgia, where they constituted 21 percent of African immigrants. Senegambians were also prominent among African immigrants in the northern colonies, accounting for about 28 percent of arrivals, or over 7,000 people. Almost 9,000 Senegambians — often identified as Bambara or Mandingo — went to the Gulf region, especially to Louisiana, where they constituted about 40 percent of the population arriving from Africa.
You do realize that data you posted above are coming from ports of embarkation which is the same data that you told me earlier weren’t “good enough”, right? Using ship port data is standard in the study of the slave trade to show ethnic provenance of slaves on the macro level instead of anecdotes which can easily give false impression and can be cherry picked. There’re scarcely any other data sources. The louisisana ethnic database compiled by Midlo-Hall is one notable exception but even that only gives a non-random sample of the overall Louisiana data. There’re problems with ship data of course but they’re still extremely useful. You should notify the professionals who’ve been studying the slave trade for several decades now that the core data they’ve been using isn’t “good enough” and reveal the data sources that are comprehensive and more accurate as you presumably suggest.
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: Hence, people from Senegambia were prominent everywhere in the United States, much more so than virtually anywhere else in the Western Hemisphere, although there were also considerable numbers of Senegambians in the French Caribbean islands and in French Guiana. Senegambia was strongly influenced by Islam, more so than any other region of origin, which means that many enslaved Africans in the United States had been exposed to Islam, more so proportionately than in the rest of the Americas. There were many Muslims in Brazil in the nineteenth century, mostly in Bahia, but they came from the central Sudan (northern Nigeria and adjacent areas), unlike those who were sent to the United States. Muslims were clearly present in both the low country of Carolina and Georgia and in the Tidewater region of Virginia and Maryland. Adult Muslim males stand out prominently, while there are very few references to Muslim women. This reflects what is known about the slave trade originating in the interior of West Africa, which was composed almost entirely of males."[/i]
^^^This source even states that Sahelians were more prominent in the USA than other parts of the diaspora. And other point raw numbers=/=percentage. [/QUOTE]
I I posted data encompassing the entire slave trade. How do the snippet comments you posted above trump that? Yes I’ve already agreed Sahelians were more prominent in the US than elsewhere in Americas but that difference was small is what I said. Show us the data that show otherwise then. Not sure what you mean by “And other point raw numbers=/=percentage.”
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
@Ish
Great maps
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
I seem to remember something about some W Afr ethny migrating to S Amer to offer their skill but can't remember specifics.
Anybody else know anything about that? I sure appreciate any help with this.
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro:
quote:Originally posted by africurious:
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Brasil and many South American countries received captives from west Central &, southern-Central Africa, not Yoruba. -Bakongos from Angola etc. Primarily Bantu speakers.
True, most of the slaves in s america did come from central Af but a whoooole lot of yorubas were taken to s amercia, especially Brazil. Yoruba religion is all over Brazil and Yoruba cuisine influence is prevalent in the north east.
You're right, I actually meant to say most captives in S.America were from Central-west African Bantus. But nonetheless cultures from those regions were/are relatively suppressed in the US are they not? I've heard of knocking and kicking, but haven't really seen it (outside of modern reconstruction). Come to think of it, didn't Gullah people from the south carry a peculiar form of Islamic culture to the US?
Posted by Andromeda2025 (Member # 22772) on :
Time to put thinking caps on, for those who have them. Why do all the darker Europeans Americans Italians, Greeks, Spanish , Slavic Americans, Jewish Americans and even sometimes Turks & Lebanese, all become WASPS or do their best to ape WASP behavior within one to two generations? Two of the biggest proponents and profiteers of WASP culture in America one is Jewish, Ralph Lauren, the other is a Pollack, Martha Stewart. Notice how they have changed their LAST names.
You know if I where as busy policing and herding white folks as some here are busy policing black folks business, I could make a career out of making fun of brown whites trying to be white white... lol
The WASP elite dominated much of politics and the economy, as well as the high culture, well into the 20th century. Anthony Smith argues that nations tend to be formed on the basis of a pre-modern ethnic core that provides the myths, symbols, and memories for the modern nation and that WASPs were indeed that core.[37] WASPs are still prominent at prep schools (expensive private high schools, primarily in the Northeast), Ivy League universities, and prestigious liberal arts colleges, such as the Little Ivies or Seven Sisters.[38]
But honestly I don't give a hoot what brown white folks/white white folks do, to each his own.
Theodore W. Allen, The Invention of the White Race, 2 vols.: I--Racial Oppression and Social Control (320 pp.) and II--The Origin of Racial Oppression in Anglo-America (400 pp.) (New York, 1994-97).
nations tend to be formed on the basis of a pre-modern ethnic core that provides the myths, symbols, and memories i.e. culture
For African Americans who is that core group? Who is the founder group? or the plurality?
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025: First of all, the western Sahel is in West Africa, no one is avoiding "west Africa or west central Africa." The question is why is African American culture while having commonalities and shared traits, "different" from Afro Caribbean and Afro Latin cultures. It is important to know American history and the chronological theft of Native American lands, ethnic cleansing of indigenous peoples, white indentured servitude and the gradual implementation of African slavery in the Anglo colonies of N.A .
The number of enslaved people in the US grew rapidly, reaching 4 million by the 1860 Census. From 1770 until 1860, the rate of natural growth of North American enslaved people was much greater than for the population of any nation in Europe, and it was nearly twice as rapid as that of England
In 1763 when France ceded Louisiana to the Spanish there were 46,000 African people enslaved there as compared to 36,500 free persons, mostly white (Hall: 1992:29–55). Most of these Africans came from points north of the Windward Coast and many had originally disembarked in St. Domingue (Hall, 1992). As high as these population data seem, the majority of all Africans imported in North America during the colonial period were enslaved in the Chesapeake and Low Country regions. Read more about people enslaved in French America. North of the Windward Coast is in the general area of the Sahel.
Here is the truth "people" like lioness and others who are very fragile and are foot soldiers for the elite want the image of African Americans to fit a stereotype perpetuated by the human traffickers because in their own mind it dehumanizes and keeps blacks in their "place". Global white supremacy is maintained through the oppression of African Americans and the African American image by proxy. So these foot soldiers want to POLICE what African Americans believe about themselves. I don't even like going through this much trouble for a post, because in the end soldiers will move the goal posts. I know what I know about African American culture because I don't know I am African American?
African Americans in north america have more Senegambian culture than the Caribbean
13 to 25 percent Senegambian ancestry is considerably high for the African diaspora in the americas
Posted by Andromeda2025 (Member # 22772) on :
LIST OF ENGLISH WORDS OF NIGER-CONGO ORIGIN This is a list of English language words that come from the languages of Africa. It excludes placenames except where they have become common words. WORDS OF AFRICAN ORIGIN banana – West African, possibly Wolof banana bogus – Hausa boko-boko meaning fake or fraudulent bongo – West African boungu bozo – stupid, West African boogie – Wolof or Sierra Leone, to dance buckra – "white man or person", from Efik and Ibibio mbakara [1] chigger – possibly from Wolof and Yoruba jiga "insect") chimpanzee – possibly derived from a Tshiluba language term "kivili-chimpenze", which is the local name for the animal and translates loosely as "mockman" or possibly just "ape".[2] cola – from West African languages (Temne kola, Mandinka kolo) dig - to sense, understand or appreciate – from Wolof dega djembe – from West African languages hip – from Wolof hipi and hepicat, one with eyes open jazz – from West African languages (Mandinka jasi, Temne yas) jive – possibly from Wolof jev juke, jukebox – possibly from Wolof and Bambara dzug through Gullah
mumbo jumbo- from mandigo name Maamajombo, a masked dancer mojo – from Fula moco'o "medicine man" through Louisiana Creole French or Gullah obeah – from West African (Efik ubio, Twi ebayifo) okay – disputed origins, likely influenced by Wolof waw-kay [3] okra – from Igbo ókùrù
sambo – Fula sambo meaning "uncle"
tote – West African via Gullah voodoo – from West African languages (Ewe and Fon vodu "spirit") yam – West African (Fula nyami, Twi anyinam)
WORDS OF BANTU ORIGIN banjo – probably Bantu mbanza funk – from kikongo lu-fuki "bad body odor" goober – possibly from Bantu (Kikongo and Kimbundu nguba) gumbo – from Bantu (Kimbundu ngombo meaning "okra")
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
^ Nice post. On the Timeline # Senegambia.
Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
welp, Lioness honestly got blown away here... I learned a lot so far also.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: welp, Lioness honestly got blown away here... I learned a lot so far also.
you must be kidding, after this was posted was there are more need for me to post?
Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
these guys were saying that at the beginning of the slave trade more africans were brought from senegambia, windward/gold coast w/e... look at the image above ish gebors post...
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025:
in the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade especially in North America, Sahelian slaves where the dominant population,
That is not true.
Yes, it is true.
I apologize if I've been reading this wrong....
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^^
- Senegambia did not have only Sahelian slaves. 24 percent of slaves were Senegambians. - often identified as Bambara or Mandingo
- the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade was prior to 1700
- the Carolinas and Georgia were not the only slave states
-notably Virginia and Maryland as well, as part of the earliest beginnings
____________________________
.
While northern parts of West Africa overlap the Sahel, looking at this map it is misleading to characterize the transatlantic slave trade as primarily Sahel derived at any point. Just think about the totality of the Sahel and it's general location
The transatlantic slave trade primarily derives from West Africa as everybody knows and is common knowledge and supported by shipping record -with some input from the Sahel and East Africa
Some people may think that is Eurocentric but I see it as commonly known black history and corroborated many black authored books arguing against it just the peculiar type of thing that goes on here
There were many Muslims in Brazil in the nineteenth century, mostly in Bahia, but they came from the central Sudan (northern Nigeria and adjacent areas), unlike those who were sent to the United States. Muslims were clearly present in both the low country of Carolina and Georgia and in the Tidewater region of Virginia and Maryland. Some parts of Africa were important in the overall transatlantic slave trade to the Americas but were under-represented in the United States. Noticeably absent or of minor importance were Yoruba, Ewe/Fon/Allada/Mahi (people who spoke the so-called Gbe languages), and other people, including Muslims, brought from the far interior of the "Slave Coast" or Bight of Benin. This region was one of the most important sources of Africans for the Atlantic crossing, and people from the Bight of Benin were particularly prominent in the French Caribbean, Cuba, Trinidad, and Brazil.
What bought the Islamic religion to the Senegambia basin including The Gambia were the Berber Arab traders who had regularly crossed the Sahara desert since 1000 BC. After the death of the Prophet Mohammed in 632 AD Islam had reached North Africa. In the 11th century Futa Toro, in Senegal, was converted to Islam. In the same century the puritanical Almoravid movement made an appearance among the Berber tribes of Southern Mauritania and made a strong religious impact there. It was these converted people who laid the introduced and laid the foundations of the religion in The Gambia and Senegal.
Posted by Snakepit1 (Member # 21736) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: @Elmaestro
I don't know if you are African-American. But I am part AA and its very interesting that you bring up Sudanic/sahelian presence. Because AA culture is unique among the Afro diaspora.
Why?
Because unlike most in the diaspora our culture was greatly influenced by Sahelian Africans/areas influenced by Muslim Africans. That is where the root of the Blues comes from which is the ancestor to almost ALL African-American music and pop music world wide.
My family is from the Carolinas and the Carolinas mostly used rice plantation. Slaves from those areas were needed because they were skilled in rice cultivation. It POSSIBLE I can have Sahelian ancestry. MAYBE..
And yeah European admixture in AAs is overstated and overrated.
I did a DNA Tribes test recently. In Part D: Your High Resolution World Region Match Result, the highest scoring region was/is what they call Tropical West Africa, followed by Sahelian, then Horn Of Africa, then Southern Africa, then African Great Lakes and North Africa coming in last (as it pertains to Africa) .
In Part B: Your High Resolution Native Population Match Results, Equatorial Guinea scored the highest, which was surprising since I'm Namibian (Himba & Aawambo/Ovambo respectively). I even got a hit from a place called Azrou in Morocco, apparently some of my DNA is also found in Berbers there. Didn't see that one coming at all.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Perhaps the most compelling African instrument that is a predecessor to an African-American instrument is the "Akonting", a folk lute of the Jola tribe of Senegambia. It is a clear predecessor to the American banjo in its playing style, the construction of the instrument itself and in its social role as a folk instrument. The Kora is played by a professional caste of praise singers for the rich and aristocracy (called griots or jalis) and is not considered folk music. Jola music was actually not influenced much by Islamic and North African/Middle Eastern music, and this may give us an important clue as to how African American music does not, according to many scholars such as Sam Charters, bear hardly any relation to kora music. Rather, African-American music may reflect a hold over from a pre-Islamicized form of African music
The ethnic group known as the Jola, Jolla or Diola tribe as they are known inSenegal make up 10% of the Gambian population and are heavily concentrated in the Foni area of south west Gambia and Casamance in Senegal as well as parts of the north of Guinea-Bissau.
Little is known about the origins of the Jolas (Diolas) because unlike other tribes they do not traditionally have griots who were able to pass down their ancestor's history from one generation to the next. However, they do have musical entertainers who recited their past but this was not passed down to the next generation therefore reducing their collective historical memory. They often build stockades against real or imaginary enemies and they were protected for a long time from European influence as they tended to inhabit thick forest woodland or swamp areas which proved difficult for outsiders to penetrate. This is one of the reasons so little is known about their origins.
What is known is that they are among one of the oldest existing tribes in The Gambia. They along with other groups like the Balanta and Pepel were already in the Casamance region of Senegal in the 13th century before moving northwards to Foni. Their migrations tended to be sporadic, seasonal and on a smaller scale than say the Mandinka. Over time some migrations evolved into more permanent settlements and some of them moved in to Baddibu, Niumi and Bathurst during the Soninke-Marabout wars when they were attacked by the Islamist jihadists Foday Kabba Dumbuya, Ebrima Njie and others between 1850 and 1890. The Islamists were determined to convert the people of the region from their animist beliefs and practices. The Jolas proved to be the most difficult tribe to convert however, most eventually succumbed though some doggedly held out and many who are Muslims today still perform animist practices.
Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
@Snakepit1
WOW!
Where the heck did the Horner come from??
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
DNAtribes flubbing your region by either measurement doesn't surprise me a bit.
But now you know your STRs! As little as 6 of them can Can accurately tell you the actual region of their profile.
Guess what? Tishkoff places the genetic origin of humanity somewhere between Rundu and Pereira de Eca across the border.
Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025:
LIST OF ENGLISH WORDS OF NIGER-CONGO ORIGIN This is a list of English language words that come from the languages of Africa. It excludes placenames except where they have become common words. WORDS OF AFRICAN ORIGIN banana – West African, possibly Wolof banana bogus – Hausa boko-boko meaning fake or fraudulent bongo – West African boungu bozo – stupid, West African boogie – Wolof or Sierra Leone, to dance buckra – "white man or person", from Efik and Ibibio mbakara [1] chigger – possibly from Wolof and Yoruba jiga "insect") chimpanzee – possibly derived from a Tshiluba language term "kivili-chimpenze", which is the local name for the animal and translates loosely as "mockman" or possibly just "ape".[2] cola – from West African languages (Temne kola, Mandinka kolo) dig - to sense, understand or appreciate – from Wolof dega djembe – from West African languages hip – from Wolof hipi and hepicat, one with eyes open jazz – from West African languages (Mandinka jasi, Temne yas) jive – possibly from Wolof jev juke, jukebox – possibly from Wolof and Bambara dzug through Gullah
mumbo jumbo- from mandigo name Maamajombo, a masked dancer mojo – from Fula moco'o "medicine man" through Louisiana Creole French or Gullah obeah – from West African (Efik ubio, Twi ebayifo) okay – disputed origins, likely influenced by Wolof waw-kay [3] okra – from Igbo ókùrù
sambo – Fula sambo meaning "uncle"
tote – West African via Gullah voodoo – from West African languages (Ewe and Fon vodu "spirit") yam – West African (Fula nyami, Twi anyinam)
WORDS OF BANTU ORIGIN banjo – probably Bantu mbanza funk – from kikongo lu-fuki "bad body odor" goober – possibly from Bantu (Kikongo and Kimbundu nguba) gumbo – from Bantu (Kimbundu ngombo meaning "okra")
Good post. I don't know why Lioness thinks she knows more than us.
The Sahelian CULTURAL influence is clearly more widespread than the non-Sahelian one.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Saying the Sahelian cultural influence is greater on AA culture than the non-Sahelian influence is to say Islamic berber influence is greater on AAs than non Islamic berber influence and that is just not true And the legacy of most African Americas was being cut off under threat from most direct cultural influence from Africa. How many African Americans cook African food (Soul food vaguely) , listen to African music or speak an African language? Carolinas a little more than other areas yes but that is just two states
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
"I fon't know why Lioness thinks she knows more than us."
Hahaha
That's her MO and one reason so many vets and 'class of 2008' members abandoned ES because there was no mods to keep her, as Rasol worded it, passive-aggressive trolling in check. With nothing to constrain her, she then started acting like dhe owns the place.
We're supposed to respect her while she passively disrespectfully flees all questioning but goes on aggressively disrespectfully asserting her used kitty litter one liner assertions now with mod authority. That said, a and as stupid as I may be, Sekhmet is the perfect mod for Deshret.
...
I wonder about a few items in that word list. Bozo is the name of a riverine ethnic group in Mali.
Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Saying the Sahelian cultural influence is greater on AA culture than the non-Sahelian influence is to say Islamic berber influence is greater on AAs than non Islamic berber influence and that is just not true And the legacy of most African Americas was being cut off under threat from most direct cultural influence from Africa. How many African Americans cook African food (Soul food vaguely) , listen to African music or speak an African language? Carolinas a little more than other areas yes but that is just two states
Do you even know what you're talking about?? The Sahel is much more than Berbers. Heck most Berbers don't even occupy the Sahel but the Sahara. Most Africans in the Sahel are Mandinkas(other Mande people), Fulanis, Hausas, Wolof, Songhais,etc,etc
I doubt you're AA as you wouldn't even be making the bolded claims. There are many African elements in Soul food. Everyone know Gumbo and Okra has West African origins. Hell I even mentioned Guinean Fowl in AA dishes. Lets not even get started on rice. Language? The Gullah language contains many West African/Mandinkas words.
Music? I already addressed that many times. Right now in this thread all you are doing is going in circles.
Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
Its a exaggeration that AAs were cut off from their ancestors culturally. Its just that the cultural African source for AAs was much DIFFERENT than what we see in other parts of the diaspora. Again:
quote:Afro-Cuban and African American music is very similar yet very different. Why? Because “essential elements of these two musics came from different parts of Africa, entering the New World by different routes, at different times, into differently structured societies” (Sublette, 159). These essential elements in African American music do not appear in Cuban music: swing and the blues scale. Cuban music contains elements of the clave (a rhythmic key) and “those undulating, repeating, melodic-rhythmic loops of fixed pitches called guajeo, montuno, or tumbao” (159). The reason for these differences was that they reflected two different musical styles that of Sudanic Africa and forest Africa.
"These patterns held considerable implications for the ethnolinguistic composition of the illegal slave trade. The mix of peoples in the Upper Guinea trade continued to be highly diverse in the illegal era. The largest group was Mende, but Koronko, Mandingo, Susu, Temne, and Fula were well represented. These six groups made up 80 percent of a sample of one thousand captives taken from Galinhas (Guinea-Bissau) and Rio Pongo (Guinea) in the 1820s and 1830s; three-quarters of these captives came from areas less than 150 miles from the coast. In the eighteenth century, peoples from the middle and upper regions of the Gambia and Senegal rivers would have been much more heavily represented. In the Bight of Benin, Yoruba peoples, scarcely noticeable in an earlier era, dominated those passing through Whydah and Lagos, with some Hausa and Nupe among them. The counterparts to the Yoruba in the Bight of Biafra were Igbo peoples, perhaps accounting for as much as 60 percent of deportees from the region, but in this case the pattern was not new. Ibibio and the numerous small ethnic groups of the Niger Delta made up the remainder. Further east, the Cameroons Highlands was almost the exclusive source of slaves leaving from what is now the Republic of Cameroon. New research on the huge West-Central Africa region suggests that the old picture of long-distant trade networks and the central importance of the Lunda Empire (northeastern Angola and western Congo) is in need of revision. Data from slave registers in the Portuguese colonies and from registers of liberated Africans in Havana and Sierra Leone indicate that the majority came from areas much closer to the coast than was previously thought. Overall, there seems to have been a shift toward the coast as the source for captives in the nineteenth century. One further pattern to emerge after 1800 was an increase in the share of Muslims, almost all of them passing through ports located in the Bight of Benin, such as Lagos and Whydah, and comprising mainly Hausa and Yoruba. A preliminary analysis of a large database of Africans (including their names) who were taken off slave ships by British naval cruisers between 1821 and 1841 and liberated in Sierra Leone and Havana suggests that one-fifth of those leaving the Bight of Benin were Muslims, many of them women."
Note: Point of disembarkation does not denote ethnicity. From the Bight of Biafra 60% Iboe the rest a mix of Fula & Hausa. Fula & Hausa ethnic community lies in Kano State clearly in the Sahel.
Notice the small SeneGambian contribution of slaves to Brazil
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Saying the Sahelian cultural influence is greater on AA culture than the non-Sahelian influence is to say Islamic berber influence is greater on AAs than non Islamic berber influence and that is just not true And the legacy of most African Americas was being cut off under threat from most direct cultural influence from Africa. How many African Americans cook African food (Soul food vaguely) , listen to African music or speak an African language? Carolinas a little more than other areas yes but that is just two states
Do you even know who inhabited / inhabits the Sahel? Do you even know the cultural trades between the Sahel and diaspora Africans?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Saying the Sahelian cultural influence is greater on AA culture than the non-Sahelian influence is to say Islamic berber influence is greater on AAs than non Islamic berber influence and that is just not true And the legacy of most African Americas was being cut off under threat from most direct cultural influence from Africa. How many African Americans cook African food (Soul food vaguely) , listen to African music or speak an African language? Carolinas a little more than other areas yes but that is just two states
Do you even know what you're talking about?? The Sahel is much more than Berbers. Heck most Berbers don't even occupy the Sahel but the Sahara. Most Africans in the Sahel are Mandinkas(other Mande people), Fulanis, Hausas, Wolof, Songhais,etc,etc
I doubt you're AA as you wouldn't even be making the bolded claims. There are many African elements in Soul food. Everyone know Gumbo and Okra has West African origins. Hell I even mentioned Guinean Fowl in AA dishes. Lets not even get started on rice. Language? The Gullah language contains many West African/Mandinkas words.
Music? I already addressed that many times. Right now in this thread all you are doing is going in circles.
The confusing part here is probably that most Tuareg ethnic groups reside at the south of the Sahara / north Sahel. The Papa Bull also gave this away.
This is one of the best online sources (not perfect, but great):
Lioness is suffering from mad AA obsessive compulsive disorder. From the way Lioness speaks I am going to guess, 1. She/He is nor has ever been to America or the "States" 2. She/He has never really known any African Americans in the flesh personally 3. She/He watches a lot of Hollywood movies. 4. If not European then is suffering some post European colonial mental distortion. Why the resistance to this information? Because it breaks stereotypes brown whites & white white's and all those foot soldiers for the elites want to maintain about AA's to keep them in their place in their "minds eye" and WASP mythology ( historical fake news) . It is the same reason why poor white's keep voting against their own economic interest, health and survival, right now the poor white heroine addicted masses are being thrown under the bus, by Trump, but hey! You can still hate black people, believe they are inferior and from the deepest darkest parts of the AFRICAN JUNGLE, and should just be grateful to be on AMURIKKKAN soil, ain't ya lucky... but see we have FACTS on our side. Historical & genetic data say otherwise
The slaves where Pan African, from different ecological environments from the Sahel to the tropics, from urban to rural areas, from different ethnic groups with different specialties and skills, and non where more aware of these differences than the Capitalist WASP's if there is one thing about America that has never changed from it's founding moments, is that money and profit are ALWAYS the motivating factor behind everything that Americans do.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025: A SHIFT IN ETHNICITIES
"These patterns held considerable implications for the ethnolinguistic composition of the illegal slave trade. The mix of peoples in the Upper Guinea trade continued to be highly diverse in the illegal era. The largest group was Mende, but Koronko, Mandingo, Susu, Temne, and Fula were well represented. These six groups made up 80 percent of a sample of one thousand captives taken from Galinhas (Guinea-Bissau) and Rio Pongo (Guinea) in the 1820s and 1830s; three-quarters of these captives came from areas less than 150 miles from the coast. In the eighteenth century, peoples from the middle and upper regions of the Gambia and Senegal rivers would have been much more heavily represented. In the Bight of Benin, Yoruba peoples, scarcely noticeable in an earlier era, dominated those passing through Whydah and Lagos, with some Hausa and Nupe among them. The counterparts to the Yoruba in the Bight of Biafra were Igbo peoples, perhaps accounting for as much as 60 percent of deportees from the region, but in this case the pattern was not new. Ibibio and the numerous small ethnic groups of the Niger Delta made up the remainder. Further east, the Cameroons Highlands was almost the exclusive source of slaves leaving from what is now the Republic of Cameroon. New research on the huge West-Central Africa region suggests that the old picture of long-distant trade networks and the central importance of the Lunda Empire (northeastern Angola and western Congo) is in need of revision. Data from slave registers in the Portuguese colonies and from registers of liberated Africans in Havana and Sierra Leone indicate that the majority came from areas much closer to the coast than was previously thought. Overall, there seems to have been a shift toward the coast as the source for captives in the nineteenth century. One further pattern to emerge after 1800 was an increase in the share of Muslims, almost all of them passing through ports located in the Bight of Benin, such as Lagos and Whydah, and comprising mainly Hausa and Yoruba. A preliminary analysis of a large database of Africans (including their names) who were taken off slave ships by British naval cruisers between 1821 and 1841 and liberated in Sierra Leone and Havana suggests that one-fifth of those leaving the Bight of Benin were Muslims, many of them women."
Note: Point of disembarkation does not denote ethnicity. From the Bight of Biafra 60% Iboe the rest a mix of Fula & Hausa. Fula & Hausa ethnic community lies in Kano State clearly in the Sahel.
Notice the small SeneGambian contribution of slaves to Brazil
Good info. This probably can explain the cultural-distributions. For example capoeira is mostly associated with region now known as Angola, but religiously they are more distributed towards Nigeria Yoruba and Fon people, which would be West-Central Africa.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Fulani Man get's his Ancestry DNA results, his individual results are interesting and he finds related genetic communities in South Carolina and Jamaica/Caribbean
I noticed the paper by Hannes Schroeder, Carlos D. Bustamante et al mentioned the Mada in (Fig. 1D).
quote: ADMIXTURE Analysis. To further explore the genetic ancestry of the STMs, we used the maximum-likelihood–based clustering algorithm ADMIXTURE (19). When assuming three ancestral populations (K = 3), the clusters in the reference panel mirror the grouping of individuals in the space defined by PC1 and PC2: a cluster predominating in Bantu-speaking populations, a cluster for non-Bantu West African populations, and a third restricted mostly to Kaba, Mada, and Bulala (Fig. 1D). The distribution of these components in our samples indicates that STM1 has a higher proportion of Bantu-specific ancestry, whereas STM2 and STM3 carry higher proportions of the component prevalent among the non-Bantu–speaking Yoruba, Brong, and Igbo. Notably, STM2 also shows a slightly higher proportion of the component prevalent among the Kaba, Mada, and Bulala, perhaps suggesting closer affinity with Chadic or Sudanic speakers (Fig. 1D).
quote: Cameroon, bordered by six nations, has had a large influx of peoples and cultures. Many small ethnic groups living in Cameroon have, at some point, come from or traveled to at least one of the neighboring countries. The Mada originated in the Nigerian Plateau region.
The second thing I have noticed is that these regions are predominately Islamic centered, next to having traditional religions. This goes for the Brong, Bamoun, Mada, and Bulala with an exception for the Congolese centered groups like Fang and Kaba. These are the groups known to lesser degree.
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025: Fulani Man get's his Ancestry DNA results, his individual results are interesting and he finds related genetic communities in South Carolina and Jamaica/Caribbean
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: @Snakepit1
WOW!
Where the heck did the Horner come from??
The British controlled the West African Slave Trade. As a result, The American slave traders took slaves from Mozambique and along the East African coast all the way to India.
.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^^
- Senegambia did not have only Sahelian slaves. 24 percent of slaves were Senegambians. - often identified as Bambara or Mandingo
- the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade was prior to 1700
- the Carolinas and Georgia were not the only slave states
-notably Virginia and Maryland as well, as part of the earliest beginnings
The level of disrespect. lol smh
Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025: Fulani Man get's his Ancestry DNA results, his individual results are interesting and he finds related genetic communities in South Carolina and Jamaica/Caribbean
It was great, "no wonder she (his Jamaican Wife) looks so Fulani" lmaooo. Although it's only 1% that Italian/Greece hit might be important.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025: A SHIFT IN ETHNICITIES
"These patterns held considerable implications for the ethnolinguistic composition of the illegal slave trade. The mix of peoples in the Upper Guinea trade continued to be highly diverse in the illegal era. The largest group was Mende, but Koronko, Mandingo, Susu, Temne, and Fula were well represented. These six groups made up 80 percent of a sample of one thousand captives taken from Galinhas (Guinea-Bissau) and Rio Pongo (Guinea) in the 1820s and 1830s; three-quarters of these captives came from areas less than 150 miles from the coast. In the eighteenth century, peoples from the middle and upper regions of the Gambia and Senegal rivers would have been much more heavily represented. In the Bight of Benin, Yoruba peoples, scarcely noticeable in an earlier era, dominated those passing through Whydah and Lagos, with some Hausa and Nupe among them. The counterparts to the Yoruba in the Bight of Biafra were Igbo peoples, perhaps accounting for as much as 60 percent of deportees from the region, but in this case the pattern was not new. Ibibio and the numerous small ethnic groups of the Niger Delta made up the remainder. Further east, the Cameroons Highlands was almost the exclusive source of slaves leaving from what is now the Republic of Cameroon. New research on the huge West-Central Africa region suggests that the old picture of long-distant trade networks and the central importance of the Lunda Empire (northeastern Angola and western Congo) is in need of revision. Data from slave registers in the Portuguese colonies and from registers of liberated Africans in Havana and Sierra Leone indicate that the majority came from areas much closer to the coast than was previously thought. Overall, there seems to have been a shift toward the coast as the source for captives in the nineteenth century. One further pattern to emerge after 1800 was an increase in the share of Muslims, almost all of them passing through ports located in the Bight of Benin, such as Lagos and Whydah, and comprising mainly Hausa and Yoruba. A preliminary analysis of a large database of Africans (including their names) who were taken off slave ships by British naval cruisers between 1821 and 1841 and liberated in Sierra Leone and Havana suggests that one-fifth of those leaving the Bight of Benin were Muslims, many of them women."
Note: Point of disembarkation does not denote ethnicity. From the Bight of Biafra 60% Iboe the rest a mix of Fula & Hausa. Fula & Hausa ethnic community lies in Kano State clearly in the Sahel.
Notice the small SeneGambian contribution of slaves to Brazil
The first Muslim slaves taken to America were the Wolof and Mandingoes. They spread Islam among the Maya and other Mexican Native American was due to the Wolof. .
.
Although the Mexicans stopped importing Wolof slaves, they were still sold in North America.Read more web page
In Brazil, the Muslims were mainly Fula (Fulani), Wolof and Mandingoes in the early days. The Mandingo influence in Brazil was the legacy of the Brazilian Muslims being called males. The majority of Muslims in the later years were Yoruba and Hausas
If you are interested in slavery and Islam in these areas Check out the following papers:
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025: Fulani Man get's his Ancestry DNA results, his individual results are interesting and he finds related genetic communities in South Carolina and Jamaica/Caribbean
It was great, "no wonder she (his Jamaican Wife) looks so Fulani" lmaooo. Although it's only 1% that Italian/Greece hit might be important.
As xyyman and I have tried to tell you, there are no European genes.
He had links to the Caribbean because of the Wolof and Fulani influence among the early slaves.
His Syrian ancestry is the result, of the Kushite settlement of Anatolia. The Kushites belonged to the C-Group people. The C-Group people include Fulani, there were also a Fulani Egyptian nome.
Fulani were probably among the Kushites who settled Anatolia. The Kushite tribes of Anatolia include the Hati, Kassite, Kaska and related tribes.
Saad's Italian ancestry may result from the African migration to Iberia. The earliest hunter-gatherers found in Italy (14kya) and Spain (7kya) carried Y- Chromosome R1b1 which is related to R1-V88. Many Fulani carry R1, which geneticists claim is a European gene, eventhough this haplogroup is found globally in Africa.
Saad was also related to Southeastern Bantu. This can be explained by the frequency of R1 among the Bantu, and Khoisan in Namibia. This might explain the Southeast Bantu connection.
.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025:
Notice the small SeneGambian contribution of slaves to Brazil
[/QB]
You can't tell from this chart. You may be correct but you need numbers that went to Amazonia
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^^
- Senegambia did not have only Sahelian slaves. 24 percent of slaves were Senegambians. - often identified as Bambara or Mandingo
- the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade was prior to 1700
- the Carolinas and Georgia were not the only slave states
-notably Virginia and Maryland as well, as part of the earliest beginnings
1) is Senegambia best described as a Sahelian country?
2) what percentage of AAs are estimated descended from Fula ?
Yes a higher percentage of Senegambians went to America than to the Carib and have more influence in America than in the Carib, I do know this and am not trying to disrespect anyone
Posted by Andromeda2025 (Member # 22772) on :
African Americans 19th Century
child labor in the south
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote: The Sahel, comprising portions of ten (10) African countries, from left to right: [northern] Senegal, [southern] Mauritania, [central] Mali, [northern] Burkina Faso, [southern] Algeria, [southwestern] Niger, [northern] Nigeria, [central] Chad, [central] Sudan and [northern] Eritrea.
1) is Senegambia best described as a Sahelian country?
2) what percentage of AAs are estimated descended from Fula ?
Yes a higher percentage of Senegambians went to America than to the Carib and have more influence in America than in the Carib, I do know this and am not trying to disrespect anyone [/QB][/QUOTE]
Posted by Andromeda2025 (Member # 22772) on :
Senegambia was a point of departure, many slaves where brought from the interior, Mali, Niger, Burkina Faso etc.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025:
African Americans 19th Century
child labor in the south
That image is a bit skewed.
Slavery did not, in fact, end at the end of the Civil War."
Collectors Bernard and Shirley Kinsey join author Douglas A. Blackmon in a conversation about Blackmon's groundbreaking historical study, and Pulitzer Prize winning boo, Slavery by Another Name: The Enslavement of Black Americans from the Civil War to World War II.
This event took place on Thursday, Feb. 24, 2011 at the National Museum of American History
quote:"Slavery by Another Name is a 90-minute documentary that challenges one of Americans’ most cherished assumptions: the belief that slavery in this country ended with the Emancipation Proclamation. The film tells how even as chattel slavery came to an end in the South in 1865, thousands of African Americans were pulled back into forced labor with shocking force and brutality. It was a system in which men, often guilty of no crime at all, were arrested, compelled to work without pay, repeatedly bought and sold, and coerced to do the bidding of masters. Tolerated by both the North and South, forced labor lasted well into the 20th century.
For most Americans this is entirely new history. Slavery by Another Name gives voice to the largely forgotten victims and perpetrators of forced labor and features their descendants living today."
I know that, that is how propaganda works, I am busy casting out demon's leave me to my work.
The truth is that racist's want to stereotype AA's and the AA experience. That experience was never monolithic.
Posted by africurious (Member # 19611) on :
Below are slave trade shipping data for the US, Brazil, and composite caribbean/spanish colonies
US
Brazil
Composite Caribbean/Spanish mainland (not the entire caribbean)
From the data above, these are the %s of upper W Af going to each region (i.e. excluding central/SE/"other" Af): US – 67.6% Braz – 31.8% Composite Caribbean/Spanish mainland – 61.9%
So as can be seen from the data, having majority origin in upper W Af wasn't just an american feature but happened in some places in the caribbean and Spanish mainland also. Brazil not surprisingly is dominantly Kongola. The US only received 6% more upper W Afs than the caribbean/spanish mainland composite. Look at Jamaica's stats--it's 78.6% upper W Af, 11% higher than the US. Senegambians is where the US stands out at 19.7%. No other region comes close to that. So from the data, it's not a upper W Af vs W central Af thing between the US and other americas. It's a Senegambian vs non-Senegambian thing. Any alleged Sahelians outside senegambia would've come thru the same ports and from same source populations that serviced the Americas outside the US. So for example if it's claimed that many Hausa came to the US (via bight of benin, gold coast) then these Hausa would've been in huge #s in other areas of the americas that were predominantly upper W Af too.
Also, as we can see from maps posted by Ish Gebor many of the people claimed to be Sahelians by some posters weren't. They were from the savanna below the Sahel. There doesn't seem to be agreement on terms in this thread on what we refer to when we say "Sahelian" so there prob is some unnecessary confusion and argumentation. Example of one of the maps i'm referring to. Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025: Senegambia was a point of departure, many slaves where brought from the interior, Mali, Niger, Burkina Faso etc.
The most relevant part is to understand that these modern borders don't represent the borders prior to colonial times.
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025: Senegambia was a point of departure, many slaves where brought from the interior, Mali, Niger, Burkina Faso etc.
Niger is deep into the middle of the continent. What is the evidence of many slaves being imported to the U.S. being from Niger?
The minimum estimate is that 43,000 people are in slavery across Niger (today)
It is based on research by Timidria, a local human rights organisation, and Anti-Slavery International. The research involved more than 11,000 face-to-face interviews in six regions of the country, constituting the most comprehensive survey of slavery in Niger to date.
Slavery remains deeply embedded in Niger society. It exists across the country, in rural and urban areas, and is practised predominantly by the Tuareg, Maure (Berber Arab) and Peule (also known as Pulaar, or Fulani) ethnic groups.
Some Hausa follow the "fifth wife" practice - a form of slavery (see below). The Hausa (both in Niger and Nigeria) are sold their "fifth wife" by Tuareg masters.
Virtually all cases of slavery documented in Niger concern individuals whose ancestors were enslaved many generations ago. Slavery status is ascribed at birth and passed on through the generations.
Niger is a source, transit, and destination country for men, women, and children subjected to forced labor and sex trafficking. Caste-based slavery practices continue primarily in the northern part of the country and affect some 44,000 people. Victims from Benin, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Ghana, Mali, Nigeria, and Togo are exploited in sex and labor trafficking in Niger. Nigerien boys are subjected to forced labor, including forced begging, within the country and in Mali and Nigeria by corrupt marabouts (religious instructors). Corrupt marabouts or loosely organized clandestine networks may also place Nigerien girls into domestic servitude or commercial sex. Nigerien children are subjected to forced labor in gold, salt, trona, and gypsum mines; agriculture; stone quarries; and manufacturing within the country. Girls are subjected to sex trafficking along the border with Nigeria, sometimes with the complicity of their families. In the Tahoua region of Niger, girls born into slavery are forced to marry men who buy them as “fifth wives” and subject them to forced labor and sexual servitude, a practice known as wahaya; their children are born into slave castes. “Fifth wives” are typically sold between the age of 9 and 11 years old. Traditional chiefs play a primary role in this form of exploitation, either through enslaving children in their own families or arranging “marriages” for other powerful individuals.
___________________________________
^ This is more a part of the Trans Saharan trade than it is the Trans Atlantic trade
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
The desperateness in this person above is beyond pathetic. Chad is also deep in the interior. lol
Songhai empire
quote:
The Songhai Empire was the largest and last of the three major pre-colonial empires to emerge in West Africa. From its capital at Gao on the Niger River, Songhai expanded in all directions until it stretched from the Atlantic Ocean (modern Senegal and Gambia) to what is now Northwest Nigeria and central Niger. Gao, Songhai’s capital, which remains to this day a small Niger River trading center, was home to the famous Goa Mosque and the Tomb of Askia, the most important of the Songhai emperors. The cities of Timbuktu and Djenne were the other major cultural and commercial centers of the empire.
This video is about my background and predictions before the test result, a Fulani man from Hammaruwa's Muri emirate of Jalingo Northern Nigeria, brother to Bubayero of Gombe emirate in Northern Nigeria.
The Fulani are the largest nomadic group of people in the world that are found in countries in West Africa right across to some parts of East Africa. Countries, such as Nigeria, Senegal, Niger, Mali, Sudan, Eritrea and so on. Hence why the results may reveal some interesting trace regions.
Both Africurious & Lioness just ugh...desperate herdation and policing.
Mandé, Soninke, Fula (in Mali), Hausa, Toubou, Kanuri (in Niger). The Songhai people (also Songhay or Sonrai) are an ethnic group in West Africa who speak Songhai languages. Their history and lingua franca is linked to the Songhai Empire which dominated the western Sahel in the 15th and 16th century.
Posted by Andromeda2025 (Member # 22772) on :
Very good movie for those interested in pre colonial Africa and the slave trade.
Ceddo , is a 1977 Senegalese film directed by the great Ousmane Sembène. It was entered into the 10th Moscow International Film Festival
In Senegal, sometime after the establishment of a European presence in the area but before the imposition of direct French colonial administration, the Ceddo ("commoners") try to preserve their traditional culture against the onslaught of Islam, Christianity, and the slave trade. When local king Demba War sides with the Muslims, the Ceddo abduct his daughter, Dior Yacine, to protest their forced conversion to Islam. After trying to rescue the princess, various heirs to the throne are killed, and Demba War is killed during the night. Eventually the kidnappers are killed and Dior Yacine is brought back to the village to confront the imam, just as all the villagers are being given Muslim names.
To exaggerate inner African input into the Transatlantic Slave Trade is to exaggerate African complicity because Europeans did not often venture into the interior
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: Lioness...this may be a helpful read for you
The emphasis of thus book is Bantu influence The word "Sahel" is not even found
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: [QB] The desperateness in this person above is beyond pathetic. Chad is also deep in the interior. lol
I don't know why you are mentioning Chad
Show us evidence many slaves who arrived in America came from Chad
Posted by Andromeda2025 (Member # 22772) on :
Who put you in charge of blame? Gate keeping for your colonial masters? lol...
The Asante went into the interior and retrieved slaves... one of the Kingdoms that Asante raided was the Kingdom of Dagbon in NW Ghana right south of the Sahel.
"The Kingdom of Dagbon is a traditional kingdom in northern Ghana, founded by the Dagomba people in the 15th century. During its independence, it comprised, at various points, the Northern, Upper West and Upper East regions of present-day Ghana.[1] Since Ghana's independence in 1957, the kingdom has been limited to a traditional, customary role.
Oral histories of the kingdom tell that it was founded by a warrior named Tohazie, who arrived to present-day northern Ghana in the 15th century with his cavalry men from east of Lake Chad, stopping in Zamfara, present-day northern Nigeria, and in the Mali Empire, before settling in northern Ghana. These histories tell of numerous conflicts with neighbouring peoples throughout this early period until the early 18th century, when the capital of the kingdom was moved to the city of Yendi. Around this time, Islam arrived to the kingdom, and a period of peace and increased trade with neighbouring kingdoms began."
quote: ADMIXTURE Analysis. To further explore the genetic ancestry of the STMs, we used the maximum-likelihood–based clustering algorithm ADMIXTURE (19). When assuming three ancestral populations (K = 3), the clusters in the reference panel mirror the grouping of individuals in the space defined by PC1 and PC2: a cluster predominating in Bantu-speaking populations, a cluster for non-Bantu West African populations, and a third restricted mostly to Kaba, Mada, and Bulala (Fig. 1D). The distribution of these components in our samples indicates that STM1 has a higher proportion of Bantu-specific ancestry, whereas STM2 and STM3 carry higher proportions of the component prevalent among the non-Bantu–speaking Yoruba, Brong, and Igbo. Notably, STM2 also shows a slightly higher proportion of the component prevalent among the Kaba, Mada, and Bulala, perhaps suggesting closer affinity with Chadic or Sudanic speakers (Fig. 1D).
— Hannes Schroeder, Carlos D. Bustamante et al mentioned the Mada in (Fig. 1D).
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by africurious:
Also, as we can see from maps posted by Ish Gebor many of the people claimed to be Sahelians by some posters weren't. They were from the savanna below the Sahel.
Ish often loses track of what his own data is saying
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The Americans most in debt to African musical instruments are the white hillbilly banjo players if the Appalachias
"This is a very rare video of the late Scott Didlake, 1948-1994, pioneer gourd banjo builder and the lost origin of the banjo researcher. He his talking at a Gourd banjo workshop during the Tennessee Banjo Institute event 1992 together with Mike Seeger and Clark Buehling."
The banjo's sound is synonymous with country, folk, and bluegrass—music as "white" as it gets. For many, it's the quintessential American instrument. Its origin, though, lies in Africa, in various instruments featuring skin drum heads and gourd bodies. Slaves fashioned them into the modern version in the colonial Caribbean, from where it traveled, via 19th-century minstrel shows, into the very heart of American popular culture. Duke University historian Laurent Dubois, one of the world's foremost experts on the Caribbean, traces the banjo's extraordinary trajectory and the part it has played in the very concept of America.
This program is presented in partnership with the John Hope Franklin Humanities Institute at Duke University.
quote: The African influence in the blues is undeniable. The poetic structure of many of the verses is similar to the Western African tradition of AAB poetry. The story like verses carries on the oral tradition of African cultures. As DjeDje points out in her article, many of the cultures of Africa made, and performed on instruments similar to what would be found in the Americas. Instruments like the balafon (xylophone), lute, drums, aerophones and fiddle like instruments would make the assimilation of this new music more transitional. Other performance practices are undeniably African as well. The earliest ‘blues’ music can be heard in the call and response type music known as field hollers. Slaves would communicate and ease the doldrums of their labor through improvised call and response songs. As these songs were sung during work they were often unaccompanied and completely original in their content. “On Southern plantations, the roots of gospel and blues were introduced in work songs and "field hollers" based on the musical forms and rhythms of Africa. Through singing, call and response, and hollering, slaves coordinated their labor, communicated with one another across adjacent fields, bolstered weary spirits, and commented on the oppressiveness of their masters.”[1] Scoops and bent notes are reminiscent of the quarter tone scale common in African music. The refusal to center fully on a pitch is common in blues music, as the performer instead begins above or below the note. This refusal or uncertainty about tonal center can be seen as a refusal of African musicians to fully conform to the European tradition they were forced into in the new America. The lowered pitches of the blues scale are also closely related to the African quarter tone scale. The flatted 3rd and 7th are uncommon in the European tradition and add an element that is completely unique to the music. Other performance practices, like playing the guitar with a knife blade or playing the banjo with a bottleneck would likely produce sounds similar to those produced from African instruments.
However, the blues are not solely defined by African customs and traditions. The melding of cultures together makes it impossible to ignore some common musical practices of the European tradition. The blues is centered around a strong harmonic progression, that comes directly from traditional European counterpoint. The use of the I (tonic), IV (subdominant) and V (dominant) is directly related to the fact that African musicians would have been exposed to these new sounds. The masters often expected the musicians to perform at ceremonies and gatherings for the white cultures, and playing in the European tradition wasn’t just expected it was demanded. The ability to learn this new style of music, only demonstrates how capable these new musicians really were. Also, the reliance on form is not just a European tradition, but one that is certainly stressed in the European study of music. The strict and simple time meter is a musical element that was taken from this new style of music as well.
The Mississippi tradition of the blues is characterized by embellished and bent notes. “Black men and women sang about themselves, played guitar with a knife blade, or blurred, embellished or bent notes when singing.”[2] The blues are believed to have begun in Mississippi, perhaps in a levee camp or logging camp or more likely on a plantation between 1870 and 1890. The tradition that would become the blues would go on to influence several other sub-genres of the blues as well as jazz and rock n roll. Another element of the blues that solidified during the early years in the Mississippi Delta is the 12 bar form that would define this genre of music. From something as atrocious as slavery, a musical genre as beautiful and diverse as blues was born.
The dual influences of cultures and traditions can easily be heard in many songs. For example the piece by Bessie Smith, “Black Mountain Blues,” the vocal smears and the poetic structure of the verse is reminiscent of African elements that were discussed earlier. The repeated vocal line AA followed by the third line B, is holding to the poetic tradition of Western Africa. The ensemble and harmonies are traditions borrowed not only from African tradition, but European tradition as well. The verses of this piece are a story being told, carrying on the tradition of the musician to pass on history orally. Another great example of African musical elements being transformed into a style of music is Robert Johnson’s “Walkin’ Blues.” The “holler” that Johnson uses throughout, the bent notes, scoops and style of playing the guitar are all examples of past traditions being used to form a new genre of music.
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025: I am busy casting out demons
Are you on a religious mission?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by africurious:
Also, as we can see from maps posted by Ish Gebor many of the people claimed to be Sahelians by some posters weren't. They were from the savanna below the Sahel.
Ish often loses track of what his own data is saying
YOU ARE A DUMB BOX OF ROCKS, WHITE SUPREMACIST. COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.
quote:Originally posted by africurious: Also, as we can see from maps posted by Ish Gebor many of the people claimed to be Sahelians by some posters weren't. They were from the savanna below the Sahel. There doesn't seem to be agreement on terms in this thread on what we refer to when we say "Sahelian" so there prob is some unnecessary confusion and argumentation. Example of one of the maps i'm referring to.
Perhaps you are not familiar with movements / travel and ethnography.
HAUSE DO NOT LIVE AT THE SAVANA NOR DO BULALA !!!!!!
NORTH OF NIGERIA IS SAHEL, NORTH OF SENEAL IS SAHEL!!!!
You need to expand you "curiosity on Africa", because you're lacking severely.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025: I am busy casting out demons
Are you on a religious mission?
What are you one, a white supremacist mission?
quote:Songhai empire, also spelled Songhay, great trading state of West Africa (fl. 15th–16th century), centred on the middle reaches of the Niger River in what is now central Mali and eventually extending west to the Atlantic coast and east into Niger and Nigeria.
^Typo one = on
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by africurious: Below are slave trade shipping data for the US, Brazil, and composite caribbean/spanish colonies
US
Brazil
Composite Caribbean/Spanish mainland (not the entire caribbean)
From the data above, these are the %s of upper W Af going to each region (i.e. excluding central/SE/"other" Af): US – 67.6% Braz – 31.8% Composite Caribbean/Spanish mainland – 61.9%
So as can be seen from the data, having majority origin in upper W Af wasn't just an american feature but happened in some places in the caribbean and Spanish mainland also. Brazil not surprisingly is dominantly Kongola. The US only received 6% more upper W Afs than the caribbean/spanish mainland composite. Look at Jamaica's stats--it's 78.6% upper W Af, 11% higher than the US. Senegambians is where the US stands out at 19.7%. No other region comes close to that. So from the data, it's not a upper W Af vs W central Af thing between the US and other americas. It's a Senegambian vs non-Senegambian thing. Any alleged Sahelians outside senegambia would've come thru the same ports and from same source populations that serviced the Americas outside the US. So for example if it's claimed that many Hausa came to the US (via bight of benin, gold coast) then these Hausa would've been in huge #s in other areas of the americas that were predominantly upper W Af too.
Also, as we can see from maps posted by Ish Gebor many of the people claimed to be Sahelians by some posters weren't. They were from the savanna below the Sahel. There doesn't seem to be agreement on terms in this thread on what we refer to when we say "Sahelian" so there prob is some unnecessary confusion and argumentation. Example of one of the maps i'm referring to.
Can you comprehend the meaning of the word "embark"?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The Americans most in debt to African musical instruments are the white hillbilly banjo players if the Appalachias
God dang
Silly rabbit tricks are for kids! This is why you should quit gate keeping and go study your own history, if you are indeed European? The real question is how African is European culture. If you had watched the video on the Talensi Fiddle is a precursor to violin, https://i.ytimg.com/vi/VzqDq2R7KT0/maxresdefault.jpg IMG resized
The African Harp is inner African before it is Egyptian.
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: @Snakepit1
WOW!
Where the heck did the Horner come from??
The British controlled the West African Slave Trade. As a result, The American slave traders took slaves from Mozambique and along the East African coast all the way to India.
.
I'm from South-West Africa though, it was the Portuguese who trafficked Africans from Luanda & Benguela though. I don't know how I got "horner" ancestry. Maybe some from easter-africa got "dropped" off in south-west africa.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: To exaggerate inner African input into the Transatlantic Slave Trade is to exaggerate African complicity because Europeans did not often venture into the interior
Let's continue:
quote:Slave ships were designed to give the crew vantage points to bring their weaponry to play against the Africans. Other ships, and men of shore, rallied to the fight against rebellious Africans, and gory defeat was commonplace. Once defeated, African rebels were subjected to a ritual of grisly punishments and execution, all designed to illustrate to survivors (and to Africans watching on neighboring ships) the inevitable fate of defeated rebels.
[…]
Crews Prepared for Resistance
Faced with the permanent threat of African resistance, the crew had to be permanently alert. A piece of wood, a tool, or any physical object carelessly left within a slave’s reach, could become a weapon. Even African children were distrusted by the crew, as they could pass dangerous objects to the men chained below the deck to facilitate escape and revolt.
Daughters of the Trade. (From the 01.20 minute onwards she discusses the people who where taken from the inland, and taken to the coast, though it is being addressed earlier on as well.
Genome-wide admixture patterns in Afro- Caribbean populations from the Lesser Antilles MARIA A. NIEVES-COLON1,2, ANNE C. STONE1,3 and JADA BENN-TORRES4 1School of Human Evolution and Social Change, Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ, 2laboratoryo de Genomica para la Biodiversidad, Unidad de Genomica Avanzada CINVESTAV, Irapuato, Guanajuato, MX, 3Center for Evolution and Medicine, Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ, 4Department of Anthropology, Vanderbilt University
quote: Afro-Caribbean populations remain underrepre- sented in anthropological genetics research. This sampling gap precludes understanding of how the African diaspora has shaped the genomic and cultural variation of Caribbean islanders. Here we address this gap by examining high-density nuclear SNP genotypes from 55 self-identified Afro-Caribbean communities across five Lesser Antilles: St. Kitts, St. Lucia, St. Vincent, Grenada, and Trinidad. Our findings indicate that ALL islanders have large components of African ancestry and low proportions of Native American ancestry; a significantly different pattern from that observed among admixed Latinos from the Greater Antilles. We further found variation in admixture patterns between island commu- nities. Trinidadian Afro-Caribbeans for instance, carry large components of East and South Asian ancestry which were likely contributed by Indian and Chinese migrants during the colonial indentureship period. In addition, comparisons of autosomal versus X-chromosome ancestry revealed a significant difference in African, European and South Asian ancestry proportions across the two genetic systems. This indicates that sex-biased mating patterns, where mostly European males reproduced with African, Native American and South Asian females, played a large role in shaping the genetic diversity of Afro-Caribbean communities in the Lesser Antilles. Overall, our findings underscore the large impact of post-colonial demographic processes in shaping the genomes of afro-de- scendant islanders. This work also increases the representation of admixed and diverse popula- tions in available genomic datasets and has the potential to inform future functional and clin- ical genetics research with admixed Caribbean peoples.
#Relevant
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
^Good read, however at first somewhat confusing, since that skipped on me. I was more focused on other parts.
Where are the Greater and Lesser Antilles?
The islands of the Caribbean sea are also known as the West Indies. Within the West Indies, the islands can be divided even further into two groups: the Bahamas and the Antilles. The islands of the Antilles are then further divided into two sub-groups:
The Greater Antilles: located southeast of the United States, contain the islands of Cuba, Jamaica, Puerto Rico, Hispaniola (Haiti and the Dominical Republic), and the islands composing the Cayman Islands.
The Lesser Antilles: contains smaller archipelagos like the U.S. Virgin Islands, British Virgin Islands, Anguilla, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Antigua and Barbuda, Montserrat, Guadeloupe, Dominica, Martinique, Saint Lucia, Barbados, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Grenada, and Trinidad and Tobago and Aruba.
Basically those taken by the Spanish have more Native American (Carib-Indian) in them. Historically that makes sense since Portuguese and Spanish first started to enslave the people from West and Central Africa. British etc came many decades later, almost a century later. In the early stage Carib-Indians were still around. On mainland you’ll find them in abundance in the Amazon’s. This tells us something else as well, which is they most likely had boats. And these boats were made in similar fashion as the boats in Africa. The mysterious question then becomes, who taught them how to make these (type of) boats. If they weren’t in contact with the outside world for thousands of years?
I just had to add this one in here, no pun intended:
Saqqara (Middle Egypt), Tomb of Kagemni – Mastaba 25 (Mastaba of the vizier Kagemni; Old Kingdom, early 6th dynasty, after 2347 BC).
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: [...]
Where are the Greater and Lesser Antilles?
The islands of the Caribbean sea are also known as the West Indies. Within the West Indies, the islands can be divided even further into two groups: the Bahamas and the Antilles. The islands of the Antilles are then further divided into two sub-groups:
The Greater Antilles: located southeast of the United States, contain the islands of Cuba, Jamaica, Puerto Rico, Hispaniola (Haiti and the Dominical Republic), and the islands composing the Cayman Islands.
The Lesser Antilles: contains smaller archipelagos like the U.S. Virgin Islands, British Virgin Islands, Anguilla, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Antigua and Barbuda, Montserrat, Guadeloupe, Dominica, Martinique, Saint Lucia, Barbados, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Grenada, and Trinidad and Tobago and Aruba.
Funny. I was just doing Antilles research for Abubakari II's peaceful transAtlantic expedition.
I found out some of the Lesser Antilles are grouped into a Leeward Islands section. Their NW end is where the Hull Bay and Water Island skeletons were discovered. Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
^Nice, Tukuler!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Reed boats can be distinguished from reed rafts, since reed boats are usually waterproofed with some form of tar.
The earliest discovered remains from a reed boat are 7000 years old, found in Kuwait. Reed boats are depicted in early petroglyphs and were common in Ancient Egypt. A famous example is the ark of bulrushes in which the baby Moses was set afloat. They were also constructed from early times in Peru and Bolivia, and boats with remarkedly similar design have been found in Easter Island. Reed boats are still used in Peru, Bolivia, Ethiopia, and until recently in Corfu (greek island)
Totora reeds grow in South America, particularly around Lake Titicaca, and also on Easter Island. These reeds have been used by various pre-Columbian South American civilizations to build reed boats. The boats, called balsa, vary in size from small fishing canoes to thirty metres long. They are still used on Lake Titicaca, located on the border of Peru and Bolivia, 3810 m above sea level.[9]
The Uros are an indigenous people pre-dating the Incas. They live, still today, on man-made floating islands scattered across Lake Titicaca. These islands are also constructed from totora reeds.[10] Each floating island supports between three and ten houses, also built of reeds.[9] The Uros still build totora reed boats, which they use for fishing and hunting seabirds.[10]
Reed boat craftsmen from Suriqui, a town on the Bolivian side of lake Titicaca, helped Thor Heyerdahl construct Ra II and Tigris.[11] Thor Heyerdahl attempted to prove that the reed boats of Lake Titicaca derived from the papyrus boats of Egypt.
Near the south-eastern shore of Lake Titicaca lie the ruins of the ancient city state of Tiwanaku. Tiwanaku contains monumental architecture characterized by large stones of exceptional workmanship.[12] Green andesite stones, that were used to create elaborate carvings and monoliths, originated from the Copacabana peninsula, located across Lake Titicaca.[13] One theory is that these giant andesite stones, which weigh over 40 tons were transported some 90 kilometres across Lake Titicaca on reed boats
Other examples[edit] Tule reeds, which are widespread in North America, were used to construct reed boats by various Native American groups. People from Ohlone, Coast Miwok and Bay Miwok used tule to build boats for use in the San Francisco Bay estuary.[16] Northern groups of Chumash also used tule to construct reed fishing canoes.[17] As well as Peru and Bolivia, reed boats are still built in Ethiopia.[18] and were used until recently in Corfu.[19] In the account given by Eusebius of Caesarea of the Sumerian flood myth is the claim that the reed boat constructed by Xisuthrus survived, at least until Berossus' day, in the "Corcyrean Mountains" of Armenia. Mokihi are made traditionally from raupo or korari in New Zealand. Still being constructed on the Waitaki river [1] and in South Westland [2] Prayer boats are used in a Hindu religious festival which takes place every year on the banks of the river Ganges where thousands of people burn incense and candles on small reed boats and float them down the river at night, the boats carrying their wishes and prayers. In 1836, Narcissa Whitman described reed boats pulled by Indians on horse back at Snake Fort, Fort Boise.[20] In 2007, the reed boat Abora3, captained by the German scientist Dominique Görlitz, set out from New York to prove that other intercontinental sea journeys were possible in reed boats. Some coracle boats are also built out of reeds .
Totora reed fishing boats on the beach at Huanchaco, Peru
Passengers manoeuvre a motorcycle out of a woven-reed coracle ferry, near Hampi village, India. July 2008.
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
Interesting post but isn't the issue on the native Americans coming to the Americas by way of the Bering straights? I'm not sure of the plant life in beringia but habitation in the north America only goes back 10,000+ years which opens up south America with possible contact from Africa or Easter island.
Never implied they couldn't.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
The mysterious question then becomes, who taught them how to make these (type of) boats. If they weren’t in contact with the outside world for thousands of years?
Amerindian Tule boats.
[ IMG resized
These boats are being made by the Miwoks of the California coast. There is no reason they could not have invented these boats and other people invented them independently in other locations
[ 16. April 2018, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: Elmaestro ]
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: Interesting post but isn't the issue on the native Americans coming to the Americas by way of the Bering straights? I'm not sure of the plant life in beringia but habitation in the north America only goes back 10,000+ years which opens up south America with possible contact from Africa or Easter island.
yes, in situ invention of reed boats in various parts of the world do not nullify the Bering Strait crossing hypothesis
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
All before Clovis.
13,800 years ago First Americans killed a mastodon in Olympic Peninsula. 13,500 years ago First Americans buried a young woman in the Yucatan. Rapid spread surmised to coast travel, avoiding the ice sheet, exploiting kelp. Bull kelp forest extended from Pacific Northwest to Patagonia in patches back then.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
The mysterious question then becomes, who taught them how to make these (type of) boats. If they weren’t in contact with the outside world for thousands of years?
Amerindian Tule boats.
[ IMG resized
These boats are being made by the Miwoks of the California coast. There is no reason they could not have invented these boats and other people invented them independently in other locations
There is no reason? First off there are a lot of similarities within the design, sedcony there are more similar cultural affinities on both continents. It surprises me that you as a “specialist on both continents“ haven’t figured that out yet.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Reed boats can be distinguished from reed rafts, since reed boats are usually waterproofed with some form of tar.
The earliest discovered remains from a reed boat are 7000 years old, found in Kuwait. Reed boats are depicted in early petroglyphs and were common in Ancient Egypt. A famous example is the ark of bulrushes in which the baby Moses was set afloat. They were also constructed from early times in Peru and Bolivia, and boats with remarkedly similar design have been found in Easter Island. Reed boats are still used in Peru, Bolivia, Ethiopia, and until recently in Corfu (greek island)
Totora reeds grow in South America, particularly around Lake Titicaca, and also on Easter Island. These reeds have been used by various pre-Columbian South American civilizations to build reed boats. The boats, called balsa, vary in size from small fishing canoes to thirty metres long. They are still used on Lake Titicaca, located on the border of Peru and Bolivia, 3810 m above sea level.[9]
The Uros are an indigenous people pre-dating the Incas. They live, still today, on man-made floating islands scattered across Lake Titicaca. These islands are also constructed from totora reeds.[10] Each floating island supports between three and ten houses, also built of reeds.[9] The Uros still build totora reed boats, which they use for fishing and hunting seabirds.[10]
Reed boat craftsmen from Suriqui, a town on the Bolivian side of lake Titicaca, helped Thor Heyerdahl construct Ra II and Tigris.[11] Thor Heyerdahl attempted to prove that the reed boats of Lake Titicaca derived from the papyrus boats of Egypt.
Near the south-eastern shore of Lake Titicaca lie the ruins of the ancient city state of Tiwanaku. Tiwanaku contains monumental architecture characterized by large stones of exceptional workmanship.[12] Green andesite stones, that were used to create elaborate carvings and monoliths, originated from the Copacabana peninsula, located across Lake Titicaca.[13] One theory is that these giant andesite stones, which weigh over 40 tons were transported some 90 kilometres across Lake Titicaca on reed boats
Other examples[edit] Tule reeds, which are widespread in North America, were used to construct reed boats by various Native American groups. People from Ohlone, Coast Miwok and Bay Miwok used tule to build boats for use in the San Francisco Bay estuary.[16] Northern groups of Chumash also used tule to construct reed fishing canoes.[17] As well as Peru and Bolivia, reed boats are still built in Ethiopia.[18] and were used until recently in Corfu.[19] In the account given by Eusebius of Caesarea of the Sumerian flood myth is the claim that the reed boat constructed by Xisuthrus survived, at least until Berossus' day, in the "Corcyrean Mountains" of Armenia. Mokihi are made traditionally from raupo or korari in New Zealand. Still being constructed on the Waitaki river [1] and in South Westland [2] Prayer boats are used in a Hindu religious festival which takes place every year on the banks of the river Ganges where thousands of people burn incense and candles on small reed boats and float them down the river at night, the boats carrying their wishes and prayers. In 1836, Narcissa Whitman described reed boats pulled by Indians on horse back at Snake Fort, Fort Boise.[20] In 2007, the reed boat Abora3, captained by the German scientist Dominique Görlitz, set out from New York to prove that other intercontinental sea journeys were possible in reed boats. Some coracle boats are also built out of reeds .
Totora reed fishing boats on the beach at Huanchaco, Peru
Passengers manoeuvre a motorcycle out of a woven-reed coracle ferry, near Hampi village, India. July 2008.
First off all, I’m typing from the phone now.
You are showing a completely different design here, secondly the design could have evolved further. Wikipedia isn’t going to help you. And yeah, once again it’s funny to “read” how they leftout other places in Africa where this culture and tradition is still maintained.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
You guys are not seriously suggesting these boats were used to do a trans-Ocean voyage of about 2000miles of open water to...trade. Really? In 1492 it took a much more advance ship about 3 months? Get real! What!? No sense of the magnitude and size of this planet and the feat involved. You are starting to sound as Europeans. The real question is.... why? Is it worth it...for trinkets? If there is "line of sight"...ok?
------------ Quote:
"Tell students that Henry Hudson was a European explorer traveling across the Atlantic during the colonial period. It took Hudson more than two months to sail from Amsterdam to New York City on his sailing ship, the Half Moon. A modern ocean liner, such as the Queen Mary 2, makes the trip from Europe in seven days."
"It usually takes around 10-20 days to cross the Atlantic Ocean on a cargo ship. The length of the journey depends on the route and the speed of the container ship.Dec 24, 2017”
"By the time the Pilgrims had left England, they had already been living onboard the ships for nearly a month and a half. The voyage itself across the Atlantic Ocean took 66 days, from their departure on September 6, until Cape Cod was sighted on 9 November 1620”
quote: [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] h Reed boats
Reed boatReeed boats are still used in Peru, Bolivia, Ethiopia, and until recently in Corfu (greek island)
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Heyerdahl tried an Atlantic crossing on a tule. Think the initial effort was it unraveled or...
Doubt imperial Mali used tule Lake Tschad craft. Remember the single tree solid body Dafuna canoe.
Mali redesigned river craft for ocean use. Abubakari II's intelligence knew common citizens entered the Atlantic. The coastal shipyard would've relied on coastal and riverine boat builders nautical skills.
Tourist info: Hopi in the SW USA have a migration myth with details describing sea rafts made of hollow stem papyrus per the Book of the Hopi.
EDIT: after Ish's post below
Heyerdahl crossed the Atlantic in a tule designed like a pharaonic Nile craft.
Zoom and note the Canary Current meets the North Equatorial Current at the Cabo Verdes. That and the NE Trade Winds forces to the Antilles without even trying.
Travel to S America would've been by the Equatorial Counter Current linking to the South Equatorial Current.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You guys are not seriously suggesting these boats were used to do a trans-Ocean voyage of about 2000miles of open water to...trade. Really? In 1492 it took a much more advance ship about 3 months? Get real! What!? No sense of the magnitude and size of this planet and the feat involved. You are starting to sound as Europeans. The real question is.... why? Is it worth it...for trinkets? If there is "line of sight"...ok?
------------ Quote:
"Tell students that Henry Hudson was a European explorer traveling across the Atlantic during the colonial period. It took Hudson more than two months to sail from Amsterdam to New York City on his sailing ship, the Half Moon. A modern ocean liner, such as the Queen Mary 2, makes the trip from Europe in seven days."
"It usually takes around 10-20 days to cross the Atlantic Ocean on a cargo ship. The length of the journey depends on the route and the speed of the container ship.Dec 24, 2017”
"By the time the Pilgrims had left England, they had already been living onboard the ships for nearly a month and a half. The voyage itself across the Atlantic Ocean took 66 days, from their departure on September 6, until Cape Cod was sighted on 9 November 1620”
quote: [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] h Reed boats
Reed boatReeed boats are still used in Peru, Bolivia, Ethiopia, and until recently in Corfu (greek island)
It’s not these boats of course, it’s the transplant of technology. There were larger boats. And it has been tested with similar larger boat. This test was successful. The Atlantic Ocean has a direct stream from West Africa to the Caribbean and Central America.
Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
This is a good ass thread... I learn more everytime I reread.. Impressive.
Tukuler would you mind restoring the imgs in this post
btw everyone who posted here kicked ass... Shouts out to And Andromeda2025 and Africurious ...you guys came outa nowhere with heat.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Ok it's done.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Looking back on the Maafa maps and charts quantifying continental regions of origin; consider D'atanasio's U209 M3991 & U290, 7 6 & 5000 year old male E lineages, she particularly ties to SW African Americans. Especially U290. Can it indicate possible majority source of those AfrAms or does it just point to which survived and thrived?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Interesting. That is why we need our own genetic testers and data analyst. Still can't fathom West Africans sailed in straw boats 4000miles away to trade in trinkets. Added, On the East Coast of the Americas would seem more probably than the West Coast. But we need confirmation via high resolution analysis.
---
Looking back on the Maafa maps and charts quantifying continental regions of origin; consider D'atanasio's U209 M3991 & U290, 7 6 & 5000 year old male E lineages, she particularly ties to SW African Americans. Especially U290. Can it indicate possible majority source of those AfrAms or does it just point to which survived and thrived? Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: can't fathom West Africans sailed in straw boats 4000miles away to trade in trinkets.
You must go study Africana and stop silly incriminations of Africans when the fact is your willful ignorance of what Africans have done and are doing.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
But Sage.....The Atlantic Ocean is close to 4000miles. ... of OPEN water.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
That didn't stop Cristobal Colon nor the Portuguese and other Europeans but sure Africans are incapable of what humans do.
Nuff said
Go take or sit in on some African Studies courses at your nearest college or at least do some resource center like the Schomburg or failing that do interlibrary loan since the ES Rχiv isn't good anymore.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Interesting. That is why we need our own genetic testers and data analyst. Still can't fathom West Africans sailed in straw boats 4000miles away to trade in trinkets. Added, On the East Coast of the Americas would seem more probably than the West Coast. But we need confirmation via high resolution analysis.
Not taking a position here as I don't know enough about ideas put forth about West African transatlantic expeditions. But you'd be surprised what is possible with "simple" boats.
quote:European seafarers could not believe their eyes when they first encountered people in Polynesia in the 1600s.
Academics in Europe believed that the Polynesians must have been the survivors of a devastating natural disaster, where an entire continent, Lemuria, sank into the sea. They thought that the Polynesians had escaped by climbing up to the top of the mountain peaks that then became the islands of Polynesia.
It took more than 100 years before this view was updated by the famous explorer, Captain James Cook. He discovered that the Polynesians were formidable sailors who built seaworthy canoes and navigated hundreds of miles of open water by following ocean swells, reading the stars, interpreting cloud formations, and sea birds.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: But Sage.....The Atlantic Ocean is close to 4000miles. ... of OPEN water.
The distance from Africa to Brazil is 1700 miles. This was less than the extent of many ancient Lakes in Africa .
It is time we take a serious look at the nautical history of African people. The idea that the first civilizations in Africa were solely hunter-gather without boat technology is groundless. We have to move away from European ideas about the origins of sailing and boat technology.
The varied style of crafts depicted in the Sahara indicate that Africans made seacraft that was capable of traveling in rough waters and in the Ocean. They would have needed these sailing craft to trade and communicate with people living along these gigantic lakes.
Africans probably developed their nautical skill sailing the former Megalakes that existed in Africa for 100’s of years. Look at this map of the Mega lakes that formerly existed in Africa. .
.
The lakes in Africa were thousands of miles long. Mega Chad was a freshwater lake in Africa covering 139,000 sq miles (360,000 sq km) . Lake Chad formerly emptied in the Atlantic Ocean.
The map of MegaLake Chad and MegaLake Congo make it clear that Africans could sail all the way from South Africa up to North Africa. From here they could have sailed up to the Mediterranean Sea or took rivers reaching the Atlantic Ocean.
The nautical skills developed by Africans on these Lakes would explain their ability to navigate and sail the Atlantic Ocean , Indian Ocean and Mediterranean Sea.
The weather on these inland seas given the size of the lakes would have made conditions similar to what sailors would have experienced sailing in the Ocean. Moreover sailing these Lakes would have given them valuable experience, that would have allowed them to sail the open seas.
The distance from Africa to Brazil is only 1700 miles. This was a minute area compared to the distance Africans sailed to trade with communities formerly existing on the African Mega Lakes
.
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
What evidence has indicated that such a straight-line crossing ever occurred?
I've found none at all.
The Amazon region has the Surui & Karitiana people who have genetic traces of Andaman-Melanesian ancestry unlike all other AmerIndians. I consider them to be descendants of the Brazilian skeletons which showed Melanesian features and also linked to the Melanesian-like or Negroid-like Olmec stone skulls.
The Surui & Karitiana people today resemble other AmerIndians and they speak the same language. Their ancestors did not follow bison in Beringia as did the AmerIndian ancestors, rather they followed the Pacific coastal currents during the Ice Age, when the Pacific was 110m/330' lower than today and numerous continental shelves were exposed, like Sahul, Sunda, Beringia dam, using canoes derived from sago palm processing.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Also the prehistoric Pacific had Bull Kelp Forest and everything associated with that.
Yet, one Colossal Cabeza has, what for all the world, looks like cornrow braids but unlike any 'Indian' or South Pacific coiffure or headgear.
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
I thought the stone skulls all had helmets. If so, plausibly they may have adorned them with feathers, which adorned Aztec & Japanese samurai armor. But cornrows might have been worn, I don't know.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by DD'eDeN: I thought the stone skulls all had helmets. If so, plausibly they may have adorned them with feathers, which adorned Aztec & Japanese samurai armor. But cornrows might have been worn, I don't know.
. The names of the Olmec Kings are found in the headgear of each Olmec Head. .
. The best evidence that the Olmec Heads represent actual Olmec Kings is the Cascajal tablet. This tablet was found in Mexico.It is the obituary of Bi Popo, who is represented in San Lorenzo Olmec Head 3.
The Olmec writing on the Cascajal tablet is an obituary for a King Bi Po. This writing is written in Hieroglyphic Olmec (Winters,2006). Hieroglyphic Olmec includes multiple linear Olmec signs which are joined together to make pictures of animals, faces and other objects.
Some researchers have recognized insects and other objects in the signs. In reality these signs are made up several different Olmec linear signs (Winters,1998).
To read the Olmec writing I use the Vai script. The Vai script includes a number of syllabic signs that have been used to engrave rocks in the Sahara for the past 4000 years. I read the signs in Malinke-Bambara which was the spoken language of the Olmec.
The Olmec writing is read right to left top to bottom. Each segment of the Olmec sign has to be broken down into its individual syllabic sign. In most cases the Olmec signs includes two or more syllabic characters. The Olmec signs can be interpreted as follows:
1. La fe ta gyo 2. Bi yu 3. Pa po yu 4. Se ta I su 5. Ta kye 6. Beb be 7. Bi Po Yu to 8. Tu fa ku 9. Tu pa pot u 10. Ta gbe pa 11. i-tu 12. Bi Yu yo po 13. Kye gyo 14. Po lu 15. Fe ta yo i 16. Be kye 17. Fe gina 18. Po bi po tu 19. Lu kye gyo to 20. Kye tu a pa 21. Yu gyo i 22. Pa ku pa 23. Po yu 24. Day u kye da 25. Po ta kye tap o 26. Ta gbe 27. Bi Fa yu 28. Bi Yu / Paw
Translation Reading the Cascajal Tablet from right to left we have the following:
(8) Bi Po lays in state in the tomb, (7) desiring to be endowed with mysterious faculties.
(6) This abode is possessed by the Governor . (5)…. (4) Bi Po Po.
(3) Bi (was), (2) an Artisan desires to be consecrated to the divinity. (1) (and He) merits thou offer of libations.
(14). Admiration (for) the cult specialist’s hemisphere tomb. (13) The inheritance of thou vital spirit is consecration to the divinity.
(12) In a place of righteous admiration, (11) Pure Bi (in a) pure abode
(10) A pure mark of admiration (is) this hemispheric tomb.
(9) [Here] lays low (the celebrity) [he] is gone.
(22) The place of righteousness, [is] (21) the pure hemispheric tomb
(20) (19) Thou (art) obedient to the Order. (18) Hold upright the Order (and) the divinity of the sacred cult.
(17) Pure Admiration this place of, (16) Bi the Vital Spirit. (15) [Truly this is ] a place consecrated to the divinity and propriety.
27) Lay low (the celebrity) to go to , (26) love the mystic order—thou vivid image of the race,
(25) The pure Govenor and (24) Devotee [of the Order lies in this] hemispheric tomb ,desires [to be] a talisman effective in providing one with virtue, (23) [He] merits thou offer of Libations.
(34) Command Respect. (33)….this place of admiration. (32) Thou sacred inheritance is propriety. (31) The Govenor commands existence in a unique state, (31) [in] this ruler’s hemispheric tomb. (29) The Royal (28) [was] a vigorous man.
(36) The pure habitation (35) [of a ]Ruler obedient to the Order. (37) This abode is possessed by the governor. (38) Admiration to you [who art] obedient to the Order. (49) Pure admiration [for this] tomb. (48) Thou hold upright the pure law. (47). Pure admiration [for this tomb]. (46) [It] acts [as] a talisman effective in providing one with virtue. (45) Bi Po, (44) a pure man, (43) of wonder, (42) [whose] inheritance is consecration to the Divinity. (41) Bi Po lays in state in the tomb, (40) desiring to be endowed with mysterious faculties. (62) Bi Po lays in state in the tomb. (61) [This] tomb [is a] sacred object, (60) a place of righteous wonder. (59) Bi’s tomb (58) [is in] accord [with] the law (57) Bi exist in a unique (and) pure state the abode of the Govenor is pure.. (56) The inheritance of [this] Ruler is joy. (55) [In] this tomb of King Bi (54) lays low a celebrity, [he] is gone. (53) The tomb of Bi (52) is a dormitory [of] love. A place consacreted to the divinity. (51) Thou the vivid image of the race love(d) the mystic order. (50) [He] merits [your] offer of Libations.
This translation of the Cascajal tablet makes it clear that the tablet was written for a local ruler at San Lorenzo called Bi Po. This tablet indicates that Bi Po’s tomb was recognized as a sacred site. It also indicates that the Olmecians believed that if they offered libations at the tombs of their rulers they would gain blessings.
The Cascajal Tablet according to the road builders at the village was found in a mound. The fact that a mound existed where the tablet was found offers considerable support to the idea that the mound where the tablet was found is the tomb of BiPoPo.
The obituary on the Cascajal Tablet may be written about one of the Royals among Olmec heads found at San Lorenzo. The Cascajal Tablet may relate to the personage depicted in San Lorenzo monument 3. Head 3 San Lorenzo
We have found that the names of these rulers is probably found among the symbols associated with the individual Olmec heads. The headband on monument 3 is made up of four parallel ropes encircling the head. In the parallel ropes there are two serrated figures that cross the ropes diagonally.
There is also a plaited diadem or four braids on the back of the figure covered with serrated element. On the side of the head of monument 3, two serrated elements on four parallel lines hang. This element ends with a three-tiered element hanging.
In the Olmec writing the serrated elements means Bi, while the boxes under the serrated element within the four parallel lines would represent the words PoPo. This suggest that the name for monument 3 was probably BiPoPo.
The hanging element on monument 3 is similar to one of the signs on the Cascajal tablet. Although symbol 57 on the Cascajal monument is hard to recognize it appears to include the Bi sign on the top of the symbol. This finding indicates that the BiPoPo of monument 3, is most likely the BiPo(Po) mentioned in the Cascajal Tablet.
Cascajal Sign 57
Stirling said that monument 3 was found at the bottom of a deep ravine half-a-mile southwest of the principal mound of San Lorenzo, along with ceramic potsherds. This is interesting because the village of Cascajal is situated southwest of San Lorenzo.
According to reports of the discovery of the road builders who found the Cascajal Tablet, the tablet came from a mound at Cascajal which was located about a mile from San Lorenzo. The coincidence of finding San Lorenzo Monument 3 in the proximity of the Cascajal mound where the Cascajal Tablet was found suggest that these artifacts concern the same personage. This leads to the possibility that the Cascajal mound was the tomb of BiPoPo.
In conclusion the Cascajal Tablet is an obituary for San Lorenzo Olmec Head 3, which depicts BiPoPo .
Given the presence of similar signs on the Olmec head called San Lorenzo monument 3, which also read BiPoPo suggest that the Cascajal Tablet was written for the personage depicted in Olmec head 3.
Cascajal Tablet makes it clear Cascajal was a royal burial site. It is conceivable that other tablets relating to Olmec rulers may also be found at this locale, since some of these other mounds may be the “hemispheric” tombs of other Olmec rulers. .
.
References to African Inscriptions:
M. Delafosse, Vai leur langue et leur ysteme d'ecriture,L'Anthropologie, 10 (1910).
Lambert, N. (1970). Medinet Sbat et la Protohistoire de Mauritanie Occidentale, Antiquites Africaines, 4, pp.15-62.
Lambert, N. L'apparition du cuivre dans les civilisations prehistoriques. In C.H. Perrot et al Le Sol, la Parole et 'Ecrit (Paris: Societe Francaise d'Histoire d'Outre Mer) pp.213-226.
R. Mauny, Tableau Geographique de l'Ouest Afrique Noire. Histoire et Archeologie (Fayard);
Kea,R.A. (2004). Expansion and Contractions: World-Historical Change and the Western Sudan World-System (1200/1000BC-1200/1250A.D.) Journal of World-Systems Research, 3, pp.723-816
Winters, Clyde. (1998). The Decipherment of the Olmec Writing System. Retrieved 09/25/2006 at http://olmec98.net/Rtolmec2.htm Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Hmmmmmmmm
.Indonesians navigated ... Indian Ocean, third largest ocean, c.28,350,000 sq mi (73,427,000 sq km), extending from S Asia to Antarctica and from E Africa to SE Australia; it is c.4,000 mi (6,400 km) wide at the equator. It constitutes about 20% of the world's total ocean area.
West Africans navigated... The Atlantic Ocean is the second largest of the world's oceans with a total area of about f, becoming the first person to swim 3,716 miles across the Atlantic Ocean, ..... The wide range of salinities in the North Atlantic is caused by the asymmetry of the northern subtropical gyre and the large number of contributions from ...
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by DD'eDeN: I thought the stone skulls all had helmets. If so, plausibly they may have adorned them with feathers, which adorned Aztec & Japanese samurai armor. But cornrows might have been worn, I don't know.
DD I appreciate your studies taken untrodden paths and connecting them in the most original fashion I've ever read.
I'm talking about a head not a skull. Monument Q from Tres Zapotes has seven cornrows as seen from the back.
Become familiar with 'Indian' artpieces whose subjects share African facial features by actually looking at them. I recommend Alexander von Wuthenau (1975) Unexpected Faces in Ancient America a catalog including trans Pacific as well as trans Atlantic faces.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Interesting. That is why we need our own genetic testers and data analyst. Still can't fathom West Africans sailed in straw boats 4000miles away to trade in trinkets. Added, On the East Coast of the Americas would seem more probably than the West Coast. But we need confirmation via high resolution analysis.
100% Agreed. And the time is now.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Loyoking back on the Maafa maps and charts quantifying continental regions of origin; consider D'atanasio's U209 M3991 & U290, 7 6 & 5000 year old male E lineages, she particularly ties to SW African Americans. Especially U290. Can it indicate possible majority source of those AfrAms or does it just point to which survived and thrived?
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
Tukuler "I'm talking about a head not a skull."
Yes! Of course.
I had been thinking of the huge stone balls (natural concretions) of that area, because of a photo of one in the Facebook group Ancient Origins, and meant to differentiate the carved heads, but I don't know why I said skulls, error.
Thanks for the information. Yes, corn-rows are very plausible, but there may have been some other fashion of hair style or head covering. I really don't know.
I'm not against the "African First in America", but I do insist on very strong evidence, so far it remains hypothetical to me.
Melanesian-Andaman evidence: Genetic trace only in Amazon Surui & Karitiana; Brazilian 8ka morphological skeletal evidence clearly distinct from other AmerIndian skeletal features.
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
Tukuler, I agree that the images of the Olmec heads look very West African. I'm wondering if the early Andaman & Papuans & Australians (especially the Papuan Pygmy & Queensland Mbabaram Pygmies) also looked like this before they mixed with Denisovans and later EurAsians & Austronesians.
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
Dr. Winters, thanks for the information, you've done a lot of research on this.
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
xyyman, to me, aside from near-shore bowl-boats (coracles = kupharigolu = inverted mongolu/dome hut), nobody was boating any oceans until Papua was found and inhabited by people who learned how to craft dugouts from sago palms about 40ka - 25ka. After that, those longboat watercraft became popular and could have been paddled all over by everyone, including West Africans. Sailing wide-open seas for months over deep deep water with very few islands in between?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
I would be careful with the notion that navigation is a thing of 'modern' times. Humans have always used 'boats'. There is a very old thread on ES about Homo Erectus supposedly using 'boats' to reach Crete (from Africa). I don't know if that thread still exists, but I just checked google and the idea that some archaic humans reached various places by boat seems to have gained steam since then. Here is one article, for example.
Swenet, I've read Dan Everett's books, and found his claims based on 'possible' rather than 'plausible & parsimonious'.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Boo! Homo erectus was The Man. Just check his name.
A very successful species I don't doubt lurks in our DNA.
But found substantially away from the AfEurAsian supercontinent?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^There was also a thread on erectus villages in Africa IIRC. Then there is homo naledi, who have all sorts of unexpected anatomical features. Some think naledi archaics performed ‘burials’. If true that’s another behaviour in a long list that we won’t be able to consider uniquely ‘modern’ anymore.
quote:Originally posted by DD'eDeN: Swenet, I've read Dan Everett's books, and found his claims based on 'possible' rather than 'plausible & parsimonious'.
Noted. Any alternative explanation on how African archaics reached Crete?
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
Tukuler, our ancient grandmothers were both erect and handy, H erectus, H habilis. There was mixture & migration, depending on weather, season, etc.
Swenet, ants & elephants bury their dead.
Erectus village?
This post is all I've found, unlikely IMO:
O.T. Homo Erectus Villages in Libya
Clyde Winters posted 07 September, 2007 07:25 AM
H erectus on Crete, based on what? A few sharp stones and a lot of storytelling & grants? Per Lee Olsen, a guy who knows knapping well, they are equivalent to Kanzi the chimp's "artifacts", I agree.
IMO, humans are from a tropical species of hominin who lived within the rainforest belt on the ground floor of multiple story canopy, with occasional travels & branchings along the forest outskirts and woodlands to the beaches and savannas.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by DD'eDeN: Tukuler, our ancient grandmothers were both erect
I think you missed my Homo erectus entendres. Continued entendre: I assure you none of my grandmothers were ever erect.
quote:erect and handy, H erectus, H habilis. There was mixture & migration, depending on weather, season, etc.
100% co-sign. Primate species sharing an ancestor within 2,000,000 years can interbreed and their offspring can be fertile.
My private view is Erectus is a holding company for • Ergaster • Erectus * • Antecessor • Heidelbergensis * • Floresiensis * any of whom are in the interbreed zone. But only the 3 asterisked hominins lived when Homo sapiens archaiis were around. I don't know what to make of Georgicus???
quote:Swenet, ants & elephants bury their dead.
Erectus village?
This post is all I've found, unlikely IMO:
O.T. Homo Erectus Villages in Libya
Clyde Winters posted 07 September, 2007 07:25 AM
H erectus on Crete, based on what? A few sharp stones and a lot of storytelling & grants? Per Lee Olsen, a guy who knows knapping well, they are equivalent to Kanzi the chimp's "artifacts", I agree.
I know nothing about Crete but how about Flores? It's supposed to have 800,000 year old Stegadon bones surrounded by tools. What's up with that? Olsen up on that too?
quote:IMO, humans are from a tropical species of hominin who lived within the rainforest belt on the ground floor of multiple story canopy, with occasional travels & branchings along the forest outskirts and woodlands to the beaches and savannas.
Pending timeframe I feel hominins left the trees for the grasslands before the Sapiens stage. By Ergaster the feet are just like ours. Legs are longer and arms shorter than the earlier hominins and the diet was of a higher quality than theirs. Ergaster can be 6ft tall and has a slender frame. But true, they didn't travel much. They never left the continent and the remains of their handax factories are in the Rift for the most part.
'Erectus' is the 1st Homo Out of Africa. Extant until 30k, variety in the skull suggests 'raciation' or Erectus being an umbrella term for fossils in a certain timeframe that can't fit into any one specified niche.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by DD'eDeN: Swenet, ants & elephants bury their dead.
The notion of archaic humans burying their dead is confusing paleontologist right now. I think it's safe to say they consider this a big deal and that they don't agree with likening this to any known animal behaviour.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Not to dwell on what seems to be 'modern' behaviour in these archaic humans, but here is some context for what I said above:
In this artist’s depiction, Homo naledi disposes of its dead in South Africa’s Rising Star cave. Though such advanced behavior is unknown in other early hominins, the scientists who discovered the fossils say no other explanation makes sense.
Of all the mysteries surrounding the new human ancestor revealed last week, the one sure to grab the attention of fiction’s most famous detective is how 1,550 bones of the tiny-brained species Homo naledi could have ended up in the remote South African cave where they were found. The chamber is a football field’s length from the cave’s entrance, past two nauseatingly tight passages, the second one a 40-foot vertical drop only eight inches wide in places.
A well-known musician in Niger, Mamane Barka takes with him a legacy of reviving the spirit of the biram, the five-string harp native to the Boudouma tribe of fishing nomads living by Lake Tchad in Niger.
It is a holy instrument and can only be played by initiated masters. Mamane Barka was one of them, and spent his later life honouring the wishes of his late teacher to spread knowledge and the hypnotic sound of the instrument across the globe.
As an older African American I thank god for youtube. I can't unhear Maman. The connection to music I heard as a child in the south/southwest is unmistakable. It's hearkens to black country/blues of Mississipi, Texas, Kansas.
And as I have the privilege of listening to the cadence of Bambara/Sonninke/Fula vocals in their music it also becomes clear how Rap gets filtered down to Africans in the new world.
Posted by Andromeda2025 (Member # 22772) on :
1/3 rd of all African's enslaved in the Americas where Islamic
Sylviane Diouf knows her audience might be skeptical, so to demonstrate the connection between Islam and American blues music, she’ll play two recordings: The Muslim call to prayer (the religious recitation that’s heard from mosques around the world), and “Levee Camp Holler” an early type of blues song that first sprang up in the Mississippi Delta more than 100 years ago. “Levee Camp Holler” is no ordinary song. It’s the product of ex-slaves who worked moving earth all day in post-Civil War America. The version that Diouf uses in presentations has lyrics that, like the call to prayer, speak about a glorious God. (“Well, Lord, I woke up this mornin’, man, I feelin’ bad . . . Well, I was thinkin’ ’bout the good times, Lord, I once have had.”)
But it’s the song’s melody and note changes that closely parallel one of Islam’s best-known refrains. As in the call to prayer, “Levee Camp Holler” emphasizes words that seem to quiver and shake in the reciter’s vocal chords. Dramatic changes in musical scales punctuate both “Levee Camp Holler” and the call to prayer. A nasal intonation is evident in both.
“I did a talk a few years ago at Harvard where I played those two things, and the room absolutely exploded in clapping, because (the connection) was obvious,” says Diouf, an author and scholar who is also a researcher at New York’s Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture. “People were saying, ‘Wow. That’s really audible. It’s really there.’ “
It’s really there because of all the Muslim slaves from West Africa who were taken by force to the United States for three centuries, from the 1600s to the mid-1800s. Upward of 30 percent of the African slaves in the United States were Muslim, and an untold number of them spoke and wrote Arabic, historians say now.
Despite being pressured by slave owners to adopt Christianity and give up their old ways, many of these slaves continued to practice their religion and customs, or otherwise melded traditions from Africa into their new environment in the antebellum South. Forced to do menial, back-breaking work on plantations, for example, they still managed, throughout their days, to voice a belief in the God of the Quran. These slaves’ practices eventually evolved — decades and decades later, parallel with different singing traditions from Africa — into the shouts and hollers that begat blues music, historians believe.
Another way that Muslim slaves had an indirect influence on blues music: the instruments they played. Drumming (which was common among slaves from the Congo and other non-Muslim regions of Africa) was banned by white slave owners, who felt threatened by its ability to let slaves communicate with each other and by the way it inspired large gatherings of slaves. Stringed instruments (which were favored by slaves from Muslim regions of Africa, where there’s a long tradition of musical storytelling) were generally allowed because slave owners considered them akin to European instruments like the violin.
So slaves who managed to cobble together a banjo or other instrument (the American banjo originated with African slaves) could play more widely in public. This solo- oriented slave music featured elements of an Arabic-Islamic song style that had been imprinted by centuries of Islam’s presence in West Africa, says Gerhard Kubik, an ethnomusicology professor at the University of Mainz in Germany who has written the most comprehensive book on Africa’s connection to blues music (“Africa and the Blues”).
Kubik believes that many of today’s blues singers unconsciously echo these Arabic-Islamic patterns in their music. Using academic language to describe this habit, Kubik writes in “Africa and the Blues” that “the vocal style of many blues singers using melisma, wavy intonation, and so forth is a heritage of that large region of West Africa that had been in contact with the Arabic-Islamic world of the Maghreb since the seventh and eighth centuries.” (Melisma is the use of many notes in one syllable; so, instead of a note that produces, say, a single sound of “ah,” you’d get a note that produces something like, “ah-ahhhh-ahhh-ah-ah.” Wavy intonation refers to a series of notes that veer from major to minor scale and back again, something that’s very common in both blues music and in the Muslim call to prayer.
Take the case of W.C. Handy, who earned the moniker "Father of the Blues" for the way he formalized the music over a 40-year career of writing songs and playing the cornet. In his autobiography, Handy (whose parents were slaves) writes about a life-changing moment that happened around 1903. Handy was sleeping at a train station in Tutwiler, Miss., when "a lean, loose-jointed Negro had commenced plucking a guitar beside me while I slept. His clothes were rags; his feet peeped out of his shoes. His face had on it some of the sadness of the ages. As he played, he pressed a knife on the strings of the guitar. ... The effect was unforgettable. His song, too, struck me instantly. . .. The singer repeated the line ("Goin' where the Southern cross' the Dog") three times, accompanying himself on the guitar with the weirdest music I had ever heard."
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025: [QB] 1/3 rd of all African's enslaved in the Americas where Islamic
Do you have a source for this claim?
Posted by Andromeda2025 (Member # 22772) on :
It's not a BBC documentary. It was produced by Al Jazerra in 2008 and presented by Somali born British journalist Rageh Omaar who worked for the BBC prior to Al Jazerra. In the video a woman named Okolo Rashid, co-founder of the International Museum of Muslim Cultures in Jackson, Mississippi, says
"one third of all of the enslaved Africans that were brought to the Americas actually were Muslims nobody knows this this kind of cutting edge information because when we read our history books we don't see that"
______________________
That was 11 years ago. I see no evidence to support the claim of that one third amount
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025: Watch BBC Video... go to 2:25
Who is the last man in that video, and why is he there? It’s beyond me.
Posted by Andromeda2025 (Member # 22772) on :
Lol, that is Cat Stevens a Briton of Greek extraction who converted to Islam but is a very famous musician. The youth of England of his time are notorious for copying the Black Mississippi Blues men and selling it back to white kids in Merica... Beatles, Rolling Stones, Led Zepplin, Eric Clapton to name a few but Cat was always more of a folk musician so why he is in the video I don't know.
Is Al Jazzera any less credible than BBC? My mistake however the narrator Okolo Rashid? Has done several other BBC documentaries. I know that @lioness probably does not think so since heshe is a typical agent defender of the colonizer even though the British have been the biggest propagandizers on the planet.
@LIONESS, understanding American black folk as I do, I firmly believe the 30% Islamic captives brought to the states and Jamaica. Remember we are not Brazilians, we are our own group and if you study Afro American history you would understand the differences between the two both genetically and culturally.
Can you dispute the camp holler similarities to the Muslim call to prayer, but why would you even want too? Why does it even matter to you? have you ever been to Mississippi? I have several times. I have been up and down these here United States. I have lived closed to west coast African Americans and east coast African Americans, I have lived in Miami around Haitian Americans, I have lived in Brooklyn for several years around the plethora of Caribbean Americans. I have spent substantial time in Harlem among Senegalese and Nigerians.
Do you know us? Do you know that we are different? With unique experiences? Africans in the diaspora are not a monolith. What contributes to those differences? To ascribe all of the differences on the way white folks treated and related to Africans is myopic and simplistic and ascribes to the white man magical powers that he does not have.
In order to make the realization of why there were substantial Moslems among the slaves brought to the US, one would first have to completely understand the geopolitics of West Africa from about 900 AD to 1490 AD, and once one has fully grasped that then you can extrapolate who was who and when their boat arrived on the shores of N. America.
@lioness don't paste and copy Wikipedia either that is incomplete and inaccurate information at best.
And remember slaves arrived in N. America from 1500 to 1850. That is a 350-year span with large geographic distribution.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Ragtime became the first nationally popular form of American music in 1899, when Scott Joplin's (1868-1917) "Maple Leaf Rag" enjoyed unprecedented success, selling over a million sheet-music copies. But ragtime was not new in 1899. Documents reveal that it was being played as early as the 1870s
The Griot tradition of West Africa - Sibo Bangoura
quote: For those of you like me who are not formally trained musicologists, here's a super-quick summation of the first 400 years of banjo history:
1) The handmade gourd instruments that would become the modern banjo originated in West Africa. 2) Enslaved Africans carried the “banjar” and its music to North America by way of the Caribbean. 3) Traditional string music (and the banjo itself) was appropriated from slave culture and was spread into the greater American popular culture through minstrel shows and blackface performances. And 4) the banjo was popularized throughout the United States and Europe by white performers, with various regional playing styles emerging and evolving simultaneously – from the rhythmic role the banjo played in traditional New Orleans jazz to the fingerpicking sound of bluegrass that bloomed in the Appalachian mountains, among many others.
“Rice cultivation had a central role in building strong, knowledgeable and vibrant agrarian cultures in west Africa. It was this know-how, i.e., cultivation in lowland, upland and mangrove environments, harvesting and milling, that brought rice cultivation to the New World through slavery4,5.”
https://www.nature.com/articles/ng.3044 Ref.6 Carney, J.A. Black Rice: the African Origins of Rice Cultivation in the Americas (Harvard University Press, 2001).
Posted by Andromeda2025 (Member # 22772) on :
Wow.. Seidi Ghali physical resemblance to R.L. Burnside is strong.. did the Mississipi Tuareg Blues connection jump out???
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Also your posts look familiar. I THINK I might recognize you from another forum under a different username.
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