posted
As far as I was concerned if you had negroid crania you were a Black African, but then I came across the case of the Beachy Head lady. Apparently despite her having definite sub-saharan crania(aka negroid crania). Her DNA analysis stated that she was actually from Cyprus. I'll admit I'm not very DNA savy, but could someone who is give light on this situation? How could someone who's adapted to the African subtropics not have this reflected in their DNA, also are there any other known cases of this? I'd honestly like to learn more.
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Where is the original paper describing her genetic affinities? So far, I haven't been able to locate it. Not even on Google Scholar. The most I could find was that it was apparently the Crick Institute that did the study, but entering her name into their site's search engine turns up nothing.
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: Where is the original paper describing her genetic affinities? So far, I haven't been able to locate it. Not even on Google Scholar. The most I could find was that it was apparently the Crick Institute that did the study, but entering her name into their site's search engine turns up nothing.
I'm just as clueless as you on the matter. Part of the reason why I made this post was to see if anyone managed to find the original paper. A part of me suspects that the methodology used to analyze the DNA of the remains was flawed, but I don't have any evidence.
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quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: It never was.
I'd argue whenever Africans are involved it is. We know Rome had several African colonies, and would've integrated Africans into their societies and army. Since a lot of people believe that North Africa was majorly white even in ancient times the presence of negroid skulls/skulls with African affinity acted as a trump card against such beliefs. For example, the Ivory Bangle lady. With the Beachy Head Lady as a reference, a Eurocentrist could use it as a proof that Black Africans never set foot in Britain, much less Roman society.
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I think the Ivory Bangle Ladys DNA is also tested but it seems the result is not published yet (?)
quote:Work on analysis of Ivory Bangle Lady and others from Roman York was conducted over a decade ago, using techniques which were pioneering at the time. In the decade since then new techniques have been developed, with major advances in the mapping of ancient DNA in particular. These techniques can be utilised to characterise the genetics of individuals, comparing these to others from the same period as well as modern populations. The technique is a relatively new one, but it has shown promise in analysing populations in other parts of Europe.
It is for this reason that we are excited that we are working with Skoglund Ancient Genomics Lab, based at the Francis Crick Institute. They have a project to analyse 1000 skeletons from across Britain. They will be analysing the skeleton of Ivory Bangle Lady alongside that of a number of other Roman skeletons within our collection. Combined with the information we already have about their bones and teeth, this has the potential to offer new insights into both their ancestry and movement. While it will be some time before we know the results of this work, we are excited to be part of a project using the latest scientific techniques to help us reveal more about the people who lived in York 2,000 years ago.
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As a matter of fact, atavistic expression of skeletal traits from distant African ancestors isn't unknown in ancient Southern European remains, as Swenet has brought up before. The Beachy Head Lady could be an example of that.
quote:In the whole sample from Minoan Crete, there are only three individuals in the B2 cluster, two from Armenoi and one from Ailias. (Two more crania from Crete In the B2 cluster are dated after the Roman conquest, when for a period of time Crete and Cyrenaica formed a single province.) The individuals in the B2 group are found predominantly at African sites (64/97). The largest single group of crania in the B2 cluster comes from the excavation of the Egyptian [Kushite] cemetery at Kerma in Nubia (22/37). The Egyptians founded a colony there in 1970 B.C., which may explain the mixture of B1 and B2 cranla in the sample [This claim is now considered outdated, as we know Kerma was the first capital of the kingdom of Kush instead of an Egyptian colony now]. All of the specimens from Wadi Ajjial, in a remote area of the North Sahara, isolated until its brief conquest by the Romans in 29 B.C., are in the B2 cluster. Seven crania from Alisar in the central Anatolian highlands, in the Hittite Kingdom, are in the B2 cluster. Three of four skulls from Early Neolithic Nea Nikomedeia are also in the B2 cluster. Angel originally studied this material and suggested. that there are African and namely Nubian genes in this population (Angel 1973, J08). This suggestion deserves repeating in view of the present results. The evidence clearly indicates an African association for the B2 cluster.
quote:Originally posted by Ibis: As far as I was concerned if you had negroid crania you were a Black African, but then I came across the case of the Beachy Head lady. Apparently despite her having definite sub-saharan crania(aka negroid crania). *Her DNA analysis stated that she was actually from Cyprus.* I'll admit I'm not very DNA savy, but could someone who is give light on this situation?
Cyprus is a source of African genetic influence from the Neolithic.
We see this for example with the paternal lineage E-M78.
E-M78
In Aeschylus' play 'The Suppliant Maidens' when the protagonists, the Danaide princesses of Libya seek refuge from the Argive king, the latter states:
quote: O stranger maids, I may not trust this word, That ye have share in this our Argive race. No likeness of our country do ye bear, But semblance as of Libyan womankind. Even such a stock by Nilus' banks might grow; Yea, and the *Cyprian* stamp, in female forms, Shows, to the life, what males impressed the same. And, furthermore, of roving Indian maids Whose camping-grounds by Aethiopia lie, And camels burdened even as mules, and bearing Riders, as horses bear, mine ears have heard; And tales of flesh-devouring mateless maids Called Amazons (of Tritonis in western Libya): to these, if bows ye bare, I most had deemed you like. Speak further yet, That of your Argive birth the truth I learn.
Note how in this list of black people the Argive king included Cyprians.
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: As a matter of fact, atavistic expression of skeletal traits from distant African ancestors isn't unknown in ancient Southern European remains, as Swenet has brought up before. The Beachy Head Lady could be an example of that.
quote:In the whole sample from Minoan Crete, there are only three individuals in the B2 cluster, two from Armenoi and one from Ailias. (Two more crania from Crete In the B2 cluster are dated after the Roman conquest, when for a period of time Crete and Cyrenaica formed a single province.) The individuals in the B2 group are found predominantly at African sites (64/97). The largest single group of crania in the B2 cluster comes from the excavation of the Egyptian [Kushite] cemetery at Kerma in Nubia (22/37). The Egyptians founded a colony there in 1970 B.C., which may explain the mixture of B1 and B2 cranla in the sample [This claim is now considered outdated, as we know Kerma was the first capital of the kingdom of Kush instead of an Egyptian colony now]. All of the specimens from Wadi Ajjial, in a remote area of the North Sahara, isolated until its brief conquest by the Romans in 29 B.C., are in the B2 cluster. Seven crania from Alisar in the central Anatolian highlands, in the Hittite Kingdom, are in the B2 cluster. Three of four skulls from Early Neolithic Nea Nikomedeia are also in the B2 cluster. Angel originally studied this material and suggested. that there are African and namely Nubian genes in this population (Angel 1973, J08). This suggestion deserves repeating in view of the present results. The evidence clearly indicates an African association for the B2 cluster.
Well this is quite the find. I knew about the Minoans but I remember seeing a research finding that there was no evidence of African presence among their civilization ( https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-evolution-human-origins/origins-mysterious-minoans-unraveled-scientists-004388?nopaging=1 ). A part of me had always suspected the study as it only covered mtDNA to reach its conclusion. Admittedly, I now feel silly after finding out that their were skulls with African affinity dating even after the Roman conquest thanks to your post.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: In Aeschylus' play 'The Suppliant Maidens' when the protagonists, the Danaide princesses of Libya seek refuge from the Argive king, the latter states:
quote: O stranger maids, I may not trust this word, That ye have share in this our Argive race. No likeness of our country do ye bear, But semblance as of Libyan womankind. Even such a stock by Nilus' banks might grow; Yea, and the *Cyprian* stamp, in female forms, Shows, to the life, what males impressed the same. And, furthermore, of roving Indian maids Whose camping-grounds by Aethiopia lie, And camels burdened even as mules, and bearing Riders, as horses bear, mine ears have heard; And tales of flesh-devouring mateless maids Called Amazons (of Tritonis in western Libya): to these, if bows ye bare, I most had deemed you like. Speak further yet, That of your Argive birth the truth I learn.
Note how in this list of black people the Argive king included Cyprians. [/QB]
I knew about haplogroup E gene flow from Africa into southern Europe, but my assumption was that by the time of the Ancient Greeks the populations wouldn't have looked distinct from them thanks to mixing (after all one can always look at modern southern Europeans as evidence.). However, I'm surprised to see that they were viewed as Black Africans even in those times. But one question that still remains is why did they shelve the title of the Beachy Head lady as the first known Black African Britain? It's possible that they weren't aware of this information when they made this decision, or could there be something else I've missed?
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In 2017 a study was published with the genetics of ancient Minoans and ancient Mycenaeans
quote:The origins of the Bronze Age Minoan and Mycenaean cultures have puzzled archaeologists for more than a century. We have assembled genome-wide data from 19 ancient individuals, including Minoans from Crete, Mycenaeans from mainland Greece, and their eastern neighbours from southwestern Anatolia. Here we show that Minoans and Mycenaeans were genetically similar, having at least three-quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean, and most of the remainder from ancient populations related to those of the Caucasus and Iran4, . However, the Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter–gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia, introduced via a proximal source related to the inhabitants of either the Eurasian steppe or Armenia . Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the Early Neolithic ancestry. Our results support the idea of continuity but not isolation in the history of populations of the Aegean, before and after the time of its earliest civilizations.
About African influence among them the authors wrote:
quote: Other proposed migrations, such as settlement by Egyptian or Phoenician colonists, are not discernible in our data, as there is no measurable Levantine or African influence in the Minoans and Mycenaeans, thus rejecting the hypothesis that the cultures of the Aegean were seeded by migrants from the old civilizations of these regions.
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^ That's because many of these scholars are ignorant about the ancient history of the Aegean including its African influence. Again, I'm not like these Afrocentrics who claim the ancient Greeks themselves were black, but that their Neolithic ancestors received such ancestry. Certain Aegean islander have more of it than others.
What I find odd about the 2013 genetic paper of the Minoans is that it claims there is no North African influence, yet the Abusir study also published by Nature ties the Egyptians to the SAME West Asian population source as the Minoans. That itself is a contradiction.
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There were contacts between North Africa and the Minoans this one can see for example in the Minoan frescos on Egyptian temples. The question is mostly how much of these contacts left traces in these peoples genomes.
I once started a thread about the Minoan paintings in Tell el-Dab‘a.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Note how in this list of black people the Argive king included Cyprians.
I wonder if we have ancient DNA from Cyprus prior to Greek colonization? I haven't been able to find much information on that on Google yet. The most I've been able was this study claiming a resemblance between modern Cypriots and PPNB samples, but none of their ancient samples appear to be from Cyprus.
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In this study by Lazaridis et al from 2022, also Cyprus is included
quote:The high Anatolian-related ancestry in Cyprus revealed by this model and subsequent analyses sheds light on debates about the origins of the people who spread Pre-Pottery Neolithic culture to Cyprus. Parallels in subsistence, technology, settlement organization, and ideological indicators suggest close contacts between Pre-Pottery Neolithic B people in Cyprus and on the mainland, but the geographic source of the Cypriot Pre-Pottery Neolithic populations has been unclear, with many possible points of origin. An inland Middle Euphrates source has been suggested on the basis of architectural and artifactual similarities. However, the faunal record at Cypriot Pre-Pottery Neolithic B sites and the use of Anatolian obsidian as raw material suggest linkages with Central and Southern Anatolia, and the genetic data increase the weight of evidence in favor of this scenario of a primary source in Anatolia.
posted
^ Yes the DNA results on the Minoan samples show them to have largely Anatolian ancestry with some Iranian Chalcolithic.
It should be noted that by 'Classical' times Greek authors documented that the island of Crete was inhabited by three primary groups-- Eteo-Cretans meaning True Cretans (Minoans), Pelasgians, and Hellenes (Greeks). This shows that the islands was colonized in waves.
I also want to point out that African influence on Crete is not an "Afrocentric" idea but was something hypothesized by past scholars.
British archaeologist Arthur Evans (1851-1941): The multiplicity of these connections with the old indigenous race of the opposite African coast, and which we undoubtedly have to deal with in the pre dynastic population of the Nile Valley, can in fact be hardly explained on any other hypothesis than that of an actual settlement in Southern Crete.
The research team of C.H. and H.B. Hawes, the latter of whom, like Evans, conducted important archaeological excavations in Crete, [...] noted that: Anthropologists are inclined to the view that the Neolithic people of Crete were immigrants, and probably came from North Africa.
Historian H.R. Hall, also Oxford trained, shared Evans' position on the early population of Minoan Crete: While the majority of the original Neolithic inhabitants of Crete probably came from Anatolia, another element may well have come in oared boats from the opposite African coast, bringing with them to the southern plain of Messara the seeds of civilization that, transplanted to the different conditions of Crete, developed into the great Minoan culture, a younger more brilliant, and less long-lived sister of that of Egypt.
Gordon Childe also commented on the relations between Crete and pre dynastic Egypt: At least on the Mesara, the great plain of southern Crete facing Africa, Minoan Crete's indebtedness to the Nile is disclosed in the most intimate aspects of its culture. Not only do the forms of early Minoan stone vases, the precision of the lapidaries' technique and the aesthetic selection of variegated stones as his materials carry on the the pre dynastic tradition, Nilotic religious customs such as the use of the sistrum, the wearing of amulets in the forms of legs, mummies and monkeys, and statuettes plainly derived from Gerzean `block figures,' and personal habits revealed by depilatory tweezers of the Egyptian shape and stone unguent palettes from the early tombs and, later, details of costumes such as the penis-sheath and loin-cloth betoken something deeper than the external relations of commerce.
And of course there is the artwork from Knossos which shows 'black' types depicted. The most complete reproduction I've seen was in the 'Posiedon Adventure' in Universal Studios.
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posted
It seems that the influences went in both directions as seen in the Minoan paintings at Tell el-Dab'a in Egypt and the African influences on Crete that you describe
The geographic proximity makes it nearly unavoidable for them to have had contact
quote:When we speak of contacts between Egypt and Greece before the time of Alexander, we should divide these contacts into two historical phases: the first comprises the contacts between Egypt and the Minoans (c. 3000 – 1400 BCE) and Mycenaeans (c. 1600 – 1100 BCE) and the second, the contacts between Egypt and the Greeks/Hellenes (c. 800 – 332 BCE) from the time the Greeks entered the scene of history in the eighth century until the conquest of Egypt by Alexander. The two phases are separated by the so-called Dark Ages between the fall of the Mycenaean civilization and the formation of the Greek polis culture.
posted
^ You are correct. Egypt's closest maritime trading partner in the Bronze Age was Minoa. Also, the darker males and lighter females seemed to have been a common art convention in the Mediterranean region. Though the complexions differed with the people. Egyptian females yellow while Minoan women white.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yes the DNA results on the Minoan samples show them to have largely Anatolian ancestry with some Iranian Chalcolithic.
It should be noted that by 'Classical' times Greek authors documented that the island of Crete was inhabited by three primary groups-- Eteo-Cretans meaning True Cretans (Minoans), Pelasgians, and Hellenes (Greeks). This shows that the islands was colonized in waves.
I also want to point out that African influence on Crete is not an "Afrocentric" idea but was something hypothesized by past scholars.
British archaeologist Arthur Evans (1851-1941): The multiplicity of these connections with the old indigenous race of the opposite African coast, and which we undoubtedly have to deal with in the pre dynastic population of the Nile Valley, can in fact be hardly explained on any other hypothesis than that of an actual settlement in Southern Crete.
The research team of C.H. and H.B. Hawes, the latter of whom, like Evans, conducted important archaeological excavations in Crete, [...] noted that: Anthropologists are inclined to the view that the Neolithic people of Crete were immigrants, and probably came from North Africa.
Historian H.R. Hall, also Oxford trained, shared Evans' position on the early population of Minoan Crete: While the majority of the original Neolithic inhabitants of Crete probably came from Anatolia, another element may well have come in oared boats from the opposite African coast, bringing with them to the southern plain of Messara the seeds of civilization that, transplanted to the different conditions of Crete, developed into the great Minoan culture, a younger more brilliant, and less long-lived sister of that of Egypt.
Gordon Childe also commented on the relations between Crete and pre dynastic Egypt: At least on the Mesara, the great plain of southern Crete facing Africa, Minoan Crete's indebtedness to the Nile is disclosed in the most intimate aspects of its culture. Not only do the forms of early Minoan stone vases, the precision of the lapidaries' technique and the aesthetic selection of variegated stones as his materials carry on the the pre dynastic tradition, Nilotic religious customs such as the use of the sistrum, the wearing of amulets in the forms of legs, mummies and monkeys, and statuettes plainly derived from Gerzean `block figures,' and personal habits revealed by depilatory tweezers of the Egyptian shape and stone unguent palettes from the early tombs and, later, details of costumes such as the penis-sheath and loin-cloth betoken something deeper than the external relations of commerce.
And of course there is the artwork from Knossos which shows 'black' types depicted. The most complete reproduction I've seen was in the 'Posiedon Adventure' in Universal Studios.
It seems the greatest impediment to African presence in Minoa is the lack of DNA evidence supporting such theories. If you were to share these quotes to anyone off this site they could just reference this article as a way to debunk those quotes. It's possible that Nature may have omitted problematic remains like they did in the Absuir study, but this is just speculation at this point.
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posted
^ But to answer your original topic question Ibis, no, I don't think classifications of "negroid" is a reliable determinant. Just one example is the Lachish crania of southern Judah. The crania had metric features that classified them as "negroid" and anthropologists initially thought them to be Egypto-Nubian colonists. However, when nonmetric traits of the skulls were assessed as well as nonmetric dental traits, it turns out they were NOT Nile Valley Africans but Levantine folks.
This is why people should be cautious of typological so-called "racial" features including "caucasoid" which can be found in Africans as well.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ But to answer your original topic question Ibis, no, I don't think classifications of "negroid" is a reliable determinant. Just one example is the Lachish crania of southern Judah. The crania had metric features that classified them as "negroid" and anthropologists initially thought them to be Egypto-Nubian colonists. However, when nonmetric traits of the skulls were assessed as well as nonmetric dental traits, it turns out they were NOT Nile Valley Africans but Levantine folks.
This is why people should be cautious of typological so-called "racial" features including "caucasoid" which can be found in Africans as well.
Is the Lachish crania really the best example though? We know thanks to Semitic branch of the Afro-Asiatic language that many Africans immigrants spread towards the Levant, the Lachish remains could just be a product of these African immigrants.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ But to answer your original topic question Ibis, no, I don't think classifications of "negroid" is a reliable determinant. Just one example is the Lachish crania of southern Judah. The crania had metric features that classified them as "negroid" and anthropologists initially thought them to be Egypto-Nubian colonists. However, when nonmetric traits of the skulls were assessed as well as nonmetric dental traits, it turns out they were NOT Nile Valley Africans but Levantine folks.
This is why people should be cautious of typological so-called "racial" features including "caucasoid" which can be found in Africans as well.
Is the Lachish crania really the best example though? We know thanks to Semitic branch of the Afro-Asiatic language that many Africans immigrants spread towards the Levant, the Lachish remains could just be a product of these African immigrants.
Some interesting papers you should read.
quote:“Vaughn criticizes the new position of Lipschits and others as one primarily from silence and assumption. Thus, Vaughn argues that all the lmlk handles discovered at Lachish show evidence of a late eighth-century origin. (This older consensus had been brought into question because of the excavation history at Lachish.) While Vaughn argues that the whole lmlk system begins and ends with Hezekiah, he and Lipschits agree that it testifies to a strong, centralized government in Judah at the end of the eighth century. [..] Historical developments in Judah were very different. Most of the major Iron IIB Israelite cities, like Lachish, Beersheba, and Beth-Shemesh, were destroyed by the Assyrians (Ussishkin 2004, 71; NEAEHL 5, 1648), and although Judah also became a vassal of the Assyrian Empire, it was of only minor importance for most of the seventh century (Machinist 1992, 74). While Lachish did undergo a resur- gence at the end of the seventh century (Ussishkin 2004, 91), Beersheba survived as only a small off-tell settlement (Gophna and Yisraeli 1973, 115–16) and Beth- Shemesh was not resettled at all (Bunimovitz and Lederman 2011, 48).”
(Zev I. Farber and Jacob L. Wright - Archaeology and History of Eighth-Century Judah, Ancient Near East Monographs).
quote:“Risdon’s work (1939) is the only study that examines the Lachish series as its major focus. Using metric variables in the now credited Coefficient of Racial Likeness (C.R.L.) (Fisher, 1939; Seltzer, 1937; Howells, 1973), he concludes that the Lachish series represents Upper Egyptians, who were residents in Lower Egypt during the Eighteenth Dynasty and who immigrated to Lachish during that time (between 1567 and 1320 BC), remaining endogamous.”
(S.O.Y. Keita, An analysis of crania from Tell-Duweir using multiple discriminant functions, 1988, American Journal of Physical Anthropology)
quote:“Overall, when the Egyptian crania are evaluated in a Near Eastern (Lachish) versus African (Kerma, Jebel Moya, Ashanti) context, the affinity is with the Africans.”
(S.O.Y. Keita, Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships, History in Africa Vol. 20 (1993), pp. 129-154, and International Journal of Anthropology volume 10, pages 107–123 (1995))
quote:“Owing to the scarcity of human fossils from this period, these ancestors of all present-day non-African modern populations remain largely enigmatic. Here we describe a partial calvaria, recently discovered at Manot Cave (Western Galilee, Israel) and dated to 54.7 ± 5.5 kyr bp (arithmetic mean ± 2 standard deviations) by uranium-thorium dating, that sheds light on this crucial event. The overall shape and discrete morphological features of the Manot 1 calvaria demonstrate that this partial skull is unequivocally modern. It is similar in shape to recent African skulls as well as to European skulls from the Upper Palaeolithic period, but different from most other early anatomically modern humans in the Levant. […]“
(Israel Hershkovitz et al.,Levantine cranium from Manot Cave (Israel) foreshadows the first European modern humans, 2015 Apr 9;520(7546):216-9.)
quote:“Ziv said that many Jewish-Ethiopian customs go against modern Jewish practice, but perfectly align with customs and rituals described on scrolls found in the Qumran caves and in books dating back to the Second Temple Period. The Qumran Caves are where the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, which include the third oldest Hebrew Bible ever found.”
(Researcher Dr. Yossi Ziv, Ethiopian Judaism nearly identical to that practiced during Second Temple Period)
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: reconstruction of Minoan priestess
reconstruction of Egyptian priest Nesyamun
Interesting reconstruction.
quote:“The Minoan mtDNA haplotypes resembled those of the European populations (Figs 2b, 3a and 4; Supplementary Figs S1–S3). The majority of Minoans were classified in haplogroups H (43.2%) , [...] Given that the timing of the first Neolithic inhabitants to reach Crete 9,000 YBP coincides with the migration of Neolithic farmers out of Anatolia, it is highly probable that the same ancestral population that spread to Europe, also spread to Crete and contributed to the founding of the early Minoan civilization”.
(Jeffery R. Hughey et al. - A European population in Minoan Bronze Age Crete Nature Communications volume 4, Article number: 1861 (2013)
quote:“The dates for subhaplogroups H1 and H3 (13,000 and 10,000 years, respectively) in Iberian and North African populations allow for this possibility. Kefi et al.’s (2005)”
(Frigi et al. - Ancient local evolution of African mtDNA haplogroups in Tunisian Berber populations)
quote:“Haplogroup H dominates present-day Western European mitochondrial DNA variability (>40%), yet was less common (~19%) among Early Neolithic farmers (~5450 BC) and virtually absent in Mesolithic hunter-gatherers. Here we investigate this major component of the maternal population history of modern Europeans and sequence 39 complete haplogroup H mitochondrial genomes from ancient human remains. We then compare this 'real-time' genetic data with cultural changes taking place between the Early Neolithic (~5450 BC) and Bronze Age (~2200 BC) in Central Europe. Our results reveal that the current diversity and distribution of haplogroup H were largely established by the Mid Neolithic (~4000 BC), but with substantial genetic contributions from subsequent pan-European cultures such as the Bell Beakers expanding out of Iberia in the Late Neolithic (~2800 BC). Dated haplogroup H genomes allow us to reconstruct the recent evolutionary history of haplogroup H and reveal a mutation rate 45% higher than current estimates for human mitochondria.”
(Brotherton P, Haak W, Templeton J, - Neolithic mitochondrial haplogroup H genomes and the genetic origins of Europeans, Nat Commun. 2013)
quote:“PC correlates and component loadings (Figure 2) showed a pattern similar to average hg frequencies (Table 2) in both large meta-population sets, with the LBK dataset grouping with Europeans because of a lack of mitochondrial African hgs (L and M1) and preHV, and elevated frequencies of hg V.”
(Wolfgang Haak - Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities)
quote:“Whereas inferred IBD sharing does not indicate directionality, the North African samples that have highest IBD sharing with Iberian populations also tend to have the lowest proportion of the European cluster in ADMIXTURE (Fig. 1), e.g., Saharawi, Tunisian Berbers, and South Moroccans. For example, the Andalucians share many IBD segments with the Tunisians (Fig. 3), who present extremely minimal levels of European ancestry. This suggests that gene flow occurred from Africa to Europe rather than the other way around. [...] Alternative models of gene flow: Migration(s) from the Near East likely have had an effect on genetic diversity between southern and northern Europe (discussed below), but do not appear to explain the gradients of African ancestry in Europe. A model of gene flow from the Near East into both Europe and North Africa, such as a strong demic wave during the Neolithic, could result in shared haplotypes between Europe and North Africa. However, we observe haplotype sharing between Europe and the Near East follows a southeast to southwest gradient, while sharing between Europe and the Maghreb follows the opposite pattern (Fig. 2); this suggests that gene flow from the Near East cannot account for the sharing with North Africa. [...] A model of gene flow from the Near East into both Europe and North Africa, such as a strong demic wave during the Neolithic, could result in shared haplotypes between Europe and North Africa. However, we observe haplotype sharing between Europe and the Near East follows a southeast to southwest gradient, while sharing between Europe and the Maghreb follows the opposite pattern (Fig. 2); this suggests that gene flow from the Near East cannot account for the sharing with North Africa.”
(Laura R. Botiguéa,1, Brenna M. Henn et al. - Gene flow from North Africa contributes to differential human genetic diversity in southern Europe (July 16, 2013))
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: Some interesting papers you should read.
Based on what I've read your points seem to support my statements. Another question I've developed over the days is that if we assume that the Beachy Head Lady was "non-Black" due to her Cyprian ancestry, where are the modern Cyprians with negroid skulls that still manage to exhibit "White European" features?
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: Some interesting papers you should read.
Based on what I've read your points seem to support my statements. Another question I've developed over the days is that if we assume that the Beachy Head Lady was "non-Black" due to her Cyprian ancestry, where are the modern Cyprians with negroid skulls that still manage to exhibit "White European" features?
I didn't respond to Beachy, but to the Minoan settlement.
What the papers showed is that an African emigration to place into the Southern part of Europe (Mediterranean).
What does this mean? Well,…
“Following DNA analysis by the Crick Institute, it has now been determined that Beachy Head Woman is very likely to have been from Cyprus although the markers that initially signalled a sub-Saharan origin are still an intriguing anomaly.”
quote:Originally posted by Ibis: As far as I was concerned if you had negroid crania you were a Black African, but then I came across the case of the Beachy Head lady. Apparently despite her having definite sub-saharan crania(aka negroid crania). Her DNA analysis stated that she was actually from Cyprus. I'll admit I'm not very DNA savy, but could someone who is give light on this situation? How could someone who's adapted to the African subtropics not have this reflected in their DNA, also are there any other known cases of this? I'd honestly like to learn more.
What exactly constitutes "negroid" crania? Is a narrow nose "non-negroid"? If not why?
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5935 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Ibis: Is the Lachish crania really the best example though? We know thanks to Semitic branch of the Afro-Asiatic language that many Africans immigrants spread towards the Levant, the Lachish remains could just be a product of these African immigrants.
Again, the Lachish remains do superficially resemble Egypto-Nubians in terms of metric features but when nonmetric features are accounted including dental traits, they are NOT African (not even North African).
Semitic is a language, and language can be spread beyond its original speakers, that is by being adopted by peoples. What I find interesting however is that Proto-Semitic is identified with Natufians who did indeed have "negroid" features. The problem however is that they were a small group who were later superseded by others.
...sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into southern Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans. —Barry Kemp, Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation, Routledge. (2006)
So something obviously happened after the Natufian period. To make things worse is the fact that, as Swenet has pointed, out there is an overt bias when it comes to sampling of skeletal material. Even when it comes to the Natufians themselves. When the Natufians were initially discovered, they were thought to be "negroid cannibals". But when it became apparent that they were likely the forebears of agriculture, their "negroid" appearance is no longer discussed and their affinities with Africans not looked at except for maybe a few (Larry Angel, F. X. Ricaut). We see hints of these "negroid" traits all throughout the eastern Mediterranean from Epipaleolithic to early Neolithic times including the Aegean region, yet as Swenet says, most of the DNA samples from that period do not include these "negroid" types, which probably explains why theses studies show no African ancestry despite the presence of Y-DNA hg E-M215 and mtDNA hg L2b.
This brings us back to the Beachy Head Lady who is from Cyprus. As I've cited, the Argive Greeks apparently identified the Cypriotes of their time as being a black people.
Posts: 26393 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I wonder if a non-metric analysis might have indicated the Beachy Head Lady's true affinities?
I will say that Eurocentrics tend to flip-flop on the utility of cranial research when it comes to assessing population phenotype or affinities. They were more than happy to cite cranial research on AE remains to prove they weren't stereotypical West or Central Africans, but once you bring up that that same research shows an affinity with "Nubian" populations and other dark-skinned NE Africans, they claim cranial research is outdated and misleading. They like the science when it conforms to their racist beliefs and dismiss it when they don't, like true pseudoscientists.
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^ Exactly! The science of craniomorphology is not the problem but the biased way it is used. You can say the same for genetics.
These same hypocritical experts have no problem using the word "negroid" or "caucasoid" when it suits them but when it doesn't they no longer use those terms.
Posts: 26393 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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