The image shows Nuba people as captives, not Nubians. Nubian by the way is a cluster name. The Nuba are from central Africa/ South Sudan. Whereas Nubians are usually from Southern Egypt, Northern Sudan.
The fourteenth king of the 18th Dynasty was chief of the army during Tutankhamun’s reign. When Tutankhamun died, Ay succeeded the throne. Ay favored Horemheb and kept him on as a military leader.
When Ay died without an heir, Horemheb was made king. Restoring order was his main objective. Once accomplished, Horemheb moved to Memphis and began work on internal affairs. He returned properties of the temples to the rightful priests and lands to the rightful owners. He had restoration projects and building additions in Karnak. He erected shrines and a temple to Ptah. He built tombs at Thebes, in the Valley of the Kings, and Memphis.
He was noted for admonishing high ranking officials against cheating the poor and misappropriating the use of slaves and properties. He promised the death penalty for such offenses. Horemheb had no heir so he appointed a military leader to succeed him. Horemheb demolished monuments of Akhenaten, reusing their remains in his own building projects, and usurped monuments of Tutankhamun and Ay. Horemheb presumably remained childless and he appointed his vizier Paramesse as his successor, who would assume the throne as Ramesses I.Horemheb was a prolific builder who erected numerous temples and buildings throughout Egypt during his life-time. He constructed the Second, Ninth and Tenth Pylons of the Great Hypostyle Hall, in the Temple at Karnak.
At the South Wall of Horemheb's tomb One sees some foreigners there which could be a delegation, containing Libyans, Asians, Nubians (which one will find elsewhere in the monument) but also a man from the islands of the Aegean sea (or could be a Greek). One finds numerous references to his military action, which in fact made it possible Egypt to take again its influence in Syro-Palestine and Nubia. At the Southern wall On the right-hand side, Horemheb standing. Before him, an officer forces a Nubian chieftain to "smell the ground" as a sign of submissiveness. Behind, six officers observe the scene. Behind them again, long files of prisoners escorted by Egyptian soldiers, curiously represented on a smaller scale, who could be young recruits, of which one knows that Horemheb was the supreme person in charge. The military scribes, scrupulously record all the details. Some Nubian prisoners are seated on the ground while an Egyptian brings another captive, while hitting him on the chin (TC 06; TC 06bis). One block in the Museum of Bologna shows a similar scene.
How come we never see them? The Egyptians beat their asses too.
Also note the features of the above Egyptians here, small noses, small mouths. They don't look like the following people's features:
detail from Temple of Ramesses II, Abu Simbel
Some of the Egyptians look Caucasoid you have to admit all though you don't like to as above Horemheb himself and the small noses, small mouth scribes and soldiers. They are not at all prognostic in the jaw either. What is the explanation? They don't look Ethiopian or Somali either. Ethiopians and Somalians tend to have have longer heads and longer features , more "semitic" nose that point downward. However you would describe them they do not look like them in these reliefs. What if what we call the above Egyptians "Caucasoid" type, that's what they look like BUT that maybe they did not originate in Central Asia but in Egypt and that Egypt was comprised of some of them and others of a Negroid type like you and me?
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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^ Because Euronuts love to associate slaves with 'blacks only' that's why.
But as far as the topic is concerned. The prisoners in the first scene are 'Nubian' yes since 'Nubia' is a generic term for the lands south of Egypt which the prisoners did come from; however, I don't know how Ish was able to determine their exact ethnicity such as whether they were Nuba or not. I mean there is nothing in that portrait to suggest one specific ethnic group or another or whether all the members in the group were part of the same ethnicity at all.
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Djehuti seriously we need to drop this false notion of "Nubia" these were not generic people to the ancient Kemites,they knew who they were the fault lays not with them but with us moderns who choose not to look at them in depth so as to recognize who they were.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Lioness - the reason that these images are rarely seen, and why people with a certain phenotype are always called Nubians, is the same as why the historian Tacitus is rarely read. It exposes the lie of White history.
Note: all of these people are Black.
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Question: If THESE people are Nubian
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Then, who are THESE people?
Assyrian defeat of the Nubians - 25 dynasty. Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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yes here we have Nubians and they have bigger noses.
Now on to this:
^^^Mike some of the the people you say were all black could easily be people you repeatedly call "sand niggers" or "Turks".
Now going to a different item:
Juba II of Mauritania
^^^^what's this? More blacks?
Mike, real talk, if the above person was rendered in a stone relief you would say he's black correct? If he were rendered in stone you could not distinguish him from a Persian or any number of people in the Mid East.
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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The scene informs us by hieroglyphic label as to who they are.
In front of (1) on top are the words "Princes of Lower Wawat", between (2) and (3) top is the label "Children of the princes of all the foreign lands." The discretely placed label in front of the chest of (1) adds an unusal element of familiarity in naming the individual: "Prince of Miam, Hekanefer."
Source:
Barry J. Kemp. Ancient Egypt: Anatomy Of A Civilization (2005), http://wysinger.homestead.com/tombofhuy.html The middle portion of the painting shows a Nubian noblewoman with a large floral headdress riding in an ox cart. Before her walk men carrying rings and bags of gold, brought as tribute to the Egyptian court. At the far left is a procession of manacled slaves followed by two grieving women with children. Some Nubians in the painting are wearing Egyptian wigs and robes while others are dressed in more typical Nubian clothing. The artist illustrates that the Nubian population was made up of a wide range of economic groups. This painting illustrates the key role that trade played, in the relationship between the two regions. A kneeling prince (at right image) leading the tribute bearers is identified as Hekanefer, Prince of Miam (modern Aniba), a region of northern Nubia. Hekanefer’s dress is Nubian. Details like the ostrich feather and panther skin he wears, along with other exotic products, serve to indicate that Nubia is the geographic source of these items.
except for the word Nubia being thrown about we can start finding out who these people supposed to be, and guys lets not make this into yet another one these are west Asians off color whites or off color blacks with the same ol pics and the same ol same ol lets try and ID these southerners.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Juba II of Numidia (52/50 BC-23) was a king of Numidia and then later moved to Mauretania. His first wife was Cleopatra Selene II, daughter to Greek Ptolemaic Queen Cleopatra VII of Egypt and Roman triumvir Mark Antony.
Juba II was a prince of Berber descent (NOT Berber - Berber descent) from North Africa. He was the only child and heir to King Juba I of Numidia. His mother is unknown. In 46 BC, his father committed suicide as he was defeated by Julius Caesar (in Thapsus, North Africa) and Numidia became a Roman Province. His father was an ally to the Roman General Pompey.
Juba II was brought to Rome by Julius Caesar and took part in Caesar’s triumphal procession. In Rome, he learned Latin and Greek, became romanized and was granted Roman citizenship. Through dedication to his studies, he is said to have become one of Rome's best educated citizens, and by age 20 he wrote one of his first works entitled Roman Archaeology. He was raised by Julius Caesar and later by his great-nephew Octavian (future Emperor Caesar Augustus). Juba II while growing up, accompanied Octavian on military campaigns, gaining valuable experience as a leader. He fought alongside Octavian in the battle of Actium in 31 BC. Juba II and Octavian became longtime friends.
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Lioness Juba II ------------------------------ Portrait of Juba II, Louvre Museum
The different polities chiefdoms and Kingdoms that made up the south
These two theories have considerable implications. According to the first, Wawat, Setju and Irthet would each be small in territory and best described as chiefdoms. At one point, Harkhuf found them to be combined under a single ruler, but even then they would represent only a fairly small kingdom. However, in the second case, each territory would have been much larger, and if combined, would represent a substantial kingdom that could be quite threatening to southern Egypt, as well as creating substantial problems with access tot he desirable goods available in Yam.
Though we have some idea of where the Yam of Egypt's Old Kingdom might have been, its exact location remains a mystery with with obviously important implications. If indeed it was located in the Shendi Reach, which is archaeologically under-explored, future work in the region may supply us with some answers, and there is always the chance that excavations in Egypt may someday yield additional information. However, for now, we must contend ourselves with opposing theories and questions.
In later Egyptian history, the territory known as Yam disappears from the ancient textual sources. However, another place name, Irem, may be relevant. Irem is first attested during the New Kingdom, and it is possible that this name may apply to the same region. Irem was significant to Egypt's New Kingdom, which for over three centuries controlled all of Lower and much of, if not all of Upper Nubia. During the 19th and 20th Dynasties, and even earlier, there were periodical hostilities, sometimes on a large scale between Egypt and Irem. Also, in between the conflicts there was also peaceful trade and even tributary relationships between the two political regions.
Like Yam, scholars also disagree about the location of Irem and as with Yam, its location has serious geopolitical implications as concerns Egypt's relationship with Nubia. Some scholars would place Irem in Upper Nubia as one of several occasionally rebellious lands that nevertheless lay within the Egyptian empire. However, at least one campaign record of Seti I seems to indicate that Irem lay further south, or at least outside of Egyptian controlled Upper Nubia.
Once again, travel narratives provide intriguing, though not conclusive indications about Irem's location. Specifically, the famous trading expedition dispatched by Queen Hatshepsut to Punt, a country believed to be on the African shores of the Red Sea provide us with some clues to the location of Irem. Punt could have been in the general region of the modern frontier between the Sudan and Eritrea.
During this expedition, a joint party from Punt and Egypt went inland to collect the desired products. According to the reliefs recorded at Deir el-Bahri, this expedition crossed two zones. One of these regions included natives that appear to be different from those of Punt, and funa such as giraffe and rhinoceros that are more typical of savannah lands closer than punt to the Nile Valley. We also know that the products acquired by the expedition came from not only Punt, but Amu and Irem as well. Hence, it is possible that Amu or Irem or both were located in the savannah lands and close to or even on the Nile. Given Punt's possible location, this could place Irem, like Yam, on or near the Shendi Reach. However, it should be pointed out that this is somewhat of a reach, placing theory upon theory, as even Punt's location continues to be hotly debated.
Mike did you ever realize that if a nose looks like a white person's nose and you break it off it looks more like a so called black person?
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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see I exposed the conspiracy to blackify white statuary by breaking the noses off. You've had it backwards all this time
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Firstly, Numidia was an AREA not a kingdom, there were SEVERAL Kingdoms in Numidia.
Secondly, Numidia was ROMAN controlled, with 28,000 Roman soldiers. What, Berbers are going to allow Roman soldiers in their kingdoms?
Thirdly, what does any of this have to do with Berbers? Or for that matter, scientific establishment of fact?
Pure - WHITE MAN BULLSH1T!
From the Louvre
Juba I This face with its impressive head of hair is that of the Numidian king Juba I. The idealization of the features suggests the influence of Hellenistic royal portraits, indicating that this was a posthumous portrait made during the reign of the king's son Juba II (reputed for his Greco-Roman culture). Juba I appears to be deified in this portrait by a likening to Jupiter.
A striking countenance
This imperious face is that of a middle-aged man, whose most striking feature is his abundant hair, which forms a heavy mass of twisted curls, arranged in rows. He is wearing a headband, which was a sign of royalty. A splendid beard also frames his face, whose discreet signs of age contribute to the impression of authority that emanates from the figure.
King Juba I
When this head was discovered in 1895, it was immediately identified as a portrait of King Juba I. This suggestion was confirmed after comparison with coins, on which portraits of the king display the same thick hair (which had made a great an impression on Cicero). Juba I, king of Numidia (a North African kingdom corresponding to the eastern part of modern Algeria), went down in Roman history when he sided with Pompey's partisans in the conflict between the consul and Caesar. The latter's victory in Thapsus in 46 BC sounded the knell for Pompey's party in Africa; Juba I committed suicide, and his kingdom became a Roman province called Africa Nova. His son, the future Juba II, was taken to Rome where he was raised and educated.
A posthumous representation
The wrinkles on the sovereign's brow and the hollowed cheeks that accentuate his prominent cheekbones indicate his age, yet this portrait remains largely idealized. The noble features (those of a man in the prime of life) and headband around the hair come from the tradition of Hellenistic royal portraiture. This ideal character, strongly indebted to Greek art, suggests that the work was produced after the reign of Juba I. The portrait in the Louvre was probably a posthumous one, produced during the reign of Juba II, the sovereign whose Roman education left him steeped in Greco-Latin culture. He may therefore have honored his father by perhaps likening him to Jupiter.
Juba II (King of Mauretania, 25 BC-AD 23) This character with his royal headband is Juba II, sovereign of the Roman-ruled kingdom of Mauretania. Juba II was a scholarly prince who had been brought up at Caesar's court and was steeped in classical culture; his interest in Greek civilization is perceptible in this portrait, which owes a great deal to the Hellenistic sculptural tradition.
An aging prince
This full face portrait with high forehead and long, sunken cheeks, is framed by a mass of short, rather wild curls, held in place by a headband. The arch of the eyebrows overshadows the inner corner of the downward slanting eyes. The nose is broad, the mouth full and sensual, and there is a deep cleft in the chin. Despite the damage it has incurred, the features of this tired face are recognizable as those of Juba II at the age of about sixty. When the head was discovered it was immediately identified as such; this suggestion was confirmed after comparison with effigies on coins and other portraits of the prince, whose strong features, wide-set eyes, and thick hair are clearly recognizable.
Juba II
Subsequent to the defeat and suicide of the Numidian king Juba I in 46 BC, his son was taken to Rome where he was raised by the sister of Octavian Augustus. The latter married him to Cleopatra Selene, daughter of Mark Anthony and Cleopatra, and granted him the regency of Mauretania (a territory comprising the western part of modern Algeria and Morocco). Juba II, who had been converted to classical culture by his Roman education, was a loyal vassal who did not betray the Roman cause. He settled in his capital Caesarea (modern Cherchell), whose very name was a homage to the master of Rome. More than anything he was an insatiably curious scholar and great art collector, who also wrote many historical and geographical treatises and organized scientific explorations to the Canary Islands and the sources of the Nile.
Hellenistic art
The classical culture of King Juba II is apparent in this portrait of the philhellenic king, which portrays him like a Hellenistic sovereign: beardless, short-haired, and wearing a royal headband. Hellenistic art also inspired the carefully modeled flesh and the idealization (which does not, however, overlook the subject's human qualities or ethnic group). Juba II apparently founded a very Hellenized artistic community in Caesarea, where excavations unearthed some impressive copies of Greek works (such as an Aphrodite, an Apollo, and a Demeter that are now conserved in Cherchell). Moreover, Juba II brought Greek artists from Egypt to his capital, thereby creating a school of sculpture that ensured the continuity of the Hellenistic sculptural tradition.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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They could be from further south of Sudan. Something that Mary Lefkowitz points out:
quote:"The Nubian tribute-bearers are painted in two skin tones, black and dark brown. These tones do not necessarily represent actual skin tones in real life but may serve to distinguish each tribute-bearer from the next in a row in which the figures overlap. Alternatively, the brown-skinned people may be of Nubian origin, and the black-skinned ones may be farther south 9Trigger 1978, 33). The shading of skin tones in Egyptian tomb paintings, which varies considerably, may not be a certain criterion for distinguishing race. Specific symbols of ethnic identity can also vary. Identifying race in Egyptian representational art, again, is difficult to do- probably because race (as opposed to ethnic affiliation, that is, Egyptians versus all non-Egyptians) was not a criterion for differentiation used by the ancient Egyptians...
--Mary Lefkowitz
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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quote:Originally posted by L': They could be from further south of Sudan. Something that Mary Lefkowitz points out:
quote:"The Nubian tribute-bearers are painted in two skin tones, black and dark brown. These tones do not necessarily represent actual skin tones in real life but may serve to distinguish each tribute-bearer from the next in a row in which the figures overlap. .
--Mary Lefkowitz
The Explorer has pointed this out. When there is an overlap they use two colors so the two figures don't blend into an octopus. If there is an overlap then the alternating,black brown pattern is used for all figures in the scene. It's an octopus-preventative. Elsewhere you may see people from South of Egypt portrayed as reddish brown. What you don't see is multiple Egyptian figures painted jet black. Also if you post in a thread created by a retard, there can be no question, you are also a retard. The difference is I am a savant and you are not.
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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^Sicko Albinos. One knows NOTHING of North African history: and enjoys not knowing.
The other quotes the lying Jew Mary Lefkowitz, of "Not out of Africa fame": who could be refuted by high school students, and who also knows nothing about North African history or anything else for that matter.
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Djehuti seriously we need to drop this false notion of "Nubia" these were not generic people to the ancient Kemites, they knew who they were the fault lays not with them but with us moderns who choose not to look at them in depth so as to recognize who they were.
I never said the Kemites used the term "Nubia". Nubia is term coined by the Romans for the lands south of Egypt. The Egyptians used the term Nhsw but they distinguished the different peoples.
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass: Some of the Egyptians look Caucasoid you have to admit all though you don't like to as above Horemheb himself and the small noses, small mouth scribes and soldiers. They are not at all prognostic in the jaw either. What is the explanation? They don't look Ethiopian or Somali either. Ethiopians and Somalians tend to have have longer heads and longer features , more "semitic" nose that point downward. However you would describe them they do not look like them in these reliefs.
What if what we call the above Egyptians "Caucasoid" type, that's what they look like BUT that maybe they did not originate in Central Asia but in Egypt and that Egypt was comprised of some of them and others of a Negroid type like you and me?
Why do you keep repeating the same debunked nonsense over and over again?? Do you have a mental affliction or something? I'm guessing you have judging by your posts. First off, there is no such thing as "caucasoid". The term is an invalid one simply because it is based on falsified notions of superficial features. Most Ethiopians and Somalis are not prognastic in the jaw either and they also have small noses and small lips. In fact, I don't know where you get the notion that Horn Africans have "semitic" noses since such noses are long and hooked, while stereotypical Horn Africans have small short noses. And Egyptians do have long dolichocephalic heads which are more visible when they are bald and without wigs. You are obviously a delusional one. We've explained to you many times that Africa not just Egypt has a great variety of phenotypic diversity, yet your brains cannot accept this. Why??
Horemheb
Reconstructed Engraving from Horemheb's tomb by the University of St. Louis Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Can't really tell by this image but they seem to lack the scarification associated with Nuba folk.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
The image shows Nuba people as captives, not Nubians. Nubian by the way is a cluster name. The Nuba are from central Africa/ South Sudan. Whereas Nubians are usually from Southern Egypt, Northern Sudan.
In this image I can't make out any scars on torso legs arms or face. Maybe the furrowed brows are actually forehead scars?
Will look into the hairstyles later.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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^ The hairstyles are definitely southern Sudanese for I have seen Dinka and Nuer with such hairstyles which are also dyed red or blonde. I have also seen other portraits of southern foes with both hairstyles and scarification on the forehead and face.
False, And the seated statue of the God Horus and Horemheb in the Museum of Vienna has extensively been restored.
Extensive restorations in recent times were performed on this double statue. The outer arms and the feet and the left hand of the king, his beard, his nose and Horus's beak were added.
From the Kunsthistorisches Museum Vienna, Egyptian - Oriental CollectionPosts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
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I believe I can make out scars on the forehead look at the last guy and the guy at the center Nuer That meant that these folks were much further north or the Kemites struck further south than we thought.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Concerning the reliefs you posted of Egyptians from the tomb of Horemheb, According to my observation, i see nothing majorly Caucasoid in the features of the majority of the Egyptians in a profile view unless i myself am mistaken and you can correct me.
The only one fitting such a description would be the person displayed the lower right of the 5th image and even then the person accommodating him to the left can certainly be considered Negroid.
As for your posted reliefs of the King himself, If we follow them and examine, his body type is gracile which is most certainly not Caucasian. Thats strike one against you and two for the fact that he exhibits notable protrusion in the mouth area and a flat nose.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: "Also note the features of the above Egyptians here, small noses, small mouths"
Small noses are not restricted to Caucasians and Caucasians on average do not have small noses from a profile view. They are measured to have one of the most relatively projecting noses from a profile view with a notable distance away from the mouth area out of all the giving races.
With regard to their mouth, there is a display of notable protrusion in the mouth area and the majority are most certainly not orthognathous distinguishing them from the vast majority of Caucasians.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: "They don't look like the following people's features"
The Ancient Egyptians may not look like them but they both share consistent relative features away from your Caucasian diagrams while being far more affiliated with each other including Sub Saharans.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: They are not at all prognostic in the jaw either...They don't look Ethiopian or Somali either."
You have poor observation. The majority of them are prognostic including Horemheb. Ethiopians and Somali also exhibit prognathism.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: What if what we call the above Egyptians "Caucasoid" type "
It amazes me how Eurocentrics persist on the expansion of Caucasoid type, going as far as to even group such accommodating features in the diagram markedly grouped with other Negroids of the diaspora than their own classification.
Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
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False, And the seated statue of the God Horus and Horemheb in the Museum of Vienna has extensively been restored.
Extensive restorations in recent times were performed on this double statue. The outer arms and the feet and the left hand of the king, his beard, his nose and Horus's beak were added.
From the Kunsthistorisches Museum Vienna, Egyptian - Oriental Collection
You can see the repair work on the nose in the left photo. I was wondering why looked more bulbous than the relief at right.
Some of your other commentary was reasonable. It's hard to tell one way or the other.
Looking at this relief on the right again it is similar to the other Egyptian figures posted, scribes and soldiers, looking quite different from the "Nubian prisoners". It doesn't remind me of an African. However you posted a better picture, the one with the larger Egyptian figures and small Nubians. They look different but the Egyptians here do have some "Negroid" qualities in the lips. I am going to have to retreat to an I don't know position on them.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Can't really tell by this image but they seem to lack the scarification associated with Nuba folk.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
The image shows Nuba people as captives, not Nubians. Nubian by the way is a cluster name. The Nuba are from central Africa/ South Sudan. Whereas Nubians are usually from Southern Egypt, Northern Sudan.
In this image I can't make out any scars on torso legs arms or face. Maybe the furrowed brows are actually forehead scars?
Will look into the hairstyles later.
For whatever it's worth, ancient Upper Nubian (geo. area) Sudanese graves often contained lip plugs, not uncommon in Nuba folk.
Finds of beads are very rare prior to the Neolithic. However, as is found in regions such as Western Asia (Wright and Garrard 2003), beadwork, especially in ground stone, becomes much more common, with new ranges of bead colours and forms. A workshop for carnelian beads has recently been identified at Sai island (Geus 2000), and partially completed agate and quartz beads have been found deposited in graves (Salvatori and Usai 2002). Adornments such as stone lip-plugs also appear. It is interesting that these appear to be much more common in more southerly areas, rarely being found in the Dongola Reach. Red Sea shells including cowries and Nerita polita are being used for beadwork, and more exotic materials such as amazonite/malachite are also in use.
- THE NUBIAN PAST - David Edwards
I'm not too sure about identifications with Nuba people though. It's problematic.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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scars is not only southern sudanese custom,but nubians did too.so yes these are nubians.
quote- Living in villages and cities, many still practice customs from ancient Kush. MAN: The tribal scars you see on people's faces are of various types. ...
Ancient traditions
The following transcript includes both the text from the captions and a text version of the audio descriptions.
DESCRIPTION: Now, in the desert. A man on camel-back herds dozens of single-humped camels. A farmer walks with a herd of goats.
NARRATOR: The descendants of the Kushites are the Nubian people of southern Egypt and northern Sudan. Living in villages and cities, many still practice customs from ancient Kush.
MAN: The tribal scars you see on people's faces are of various types. The most common is three... three lines on each cheek. You see these same kinds of scars in the reliefs of the Meroitic period, worn by rulers 2,000 years ago.
NARRATOR: Many clues to the past can be better understood by looking to the present. The architectural design of Nubian homes, and the customs and practices of people living today, help scholars to reconstruct the past.
______________________________________________- oh,another point,the nuba is not a ethnic group.it's region with different ethnic groups and they are just called the nuba.the nuba is are made of of different ethnic groups and languages. some are nubian(hill nubians)most are not,but there are some that are nubian.there are nubians in darfur too.
quote-
Nuba is a collective term used here for the peoples who inhabit the Nuba Mountains, in Sudan, Africa. Although the term is used to describe them as if they composed a single group, the Nuba are multiple distinct peoples and speak different languages. Estimates of the Nuba population vary widely; the Sudanese government estimated that they numbered 1.07 million in 2003.
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Linguistic Classification: Nilo-Saharan Eastern Sudanic Astaboran
Nubian
Subdivisions Northern (Nobiin) - Central - central sudan- nuba hills/Kordofan Western (Midob) - western sudan
or The Nubian language group, according to the most recent research by Bechhaus-Gerst comprises the following varieties:
# Nobiin (previously known by the geographic terms Mahas or Fadicca/Fiadicca).
# Kenzi-Dongolawi. Kenzi (or Kenuzi) is spoken north of Mahas in Egypt while Dongolawi is spoken south of Mahas around Dongola; they are generally considered two varieties of one language. With population displacement due to the Aswan High Dam there are communities of Nubian speakers in Lower Egypt and in Eastern Sudan (Khashm el-Girba). Apart from these two dialects spoken along the Nile, three other dialects once existed.
# Midob (Meidob) in and around the Malha volcanic crater in North Darfur.
# Birgid - originally spoken north of Nyala around Menawashei until the 1970s. The last surviving aged speakers were interviewed by Thelwall at this time. Some equally aged speakers on Gezira Aba just north of Kosti on the Nile south of Khartoum were interviewed by Thelwall in 1980.
note- the last speakers of Birgid were in sudan,but in chad this nubian language still existed.the birgid still exist in sudan but the speak arabic first,but the culture is still nubian,so they are still nubians.
# Hill Nubian – a group of closely related dialects spoken in various villages in the northern Nuba Mountains – in particular Dilling, Debri, and Kadaru.
The Dilling are a Sudanese group and one of the "Nuba" peoples. Their language is of the Nubian branch of the Nilo-Saharan family. The Dilling number several thousand and live mainly in South Kurdufan in the Nuba mountains. The Dilling language is partially arabized.
Nuba peoples
Nuba is a collective term used here for the peoples who inhabit the Nuba Mountains, in Sudan, Africa. Although the term is used to describe them as if they composed a single group, the Nuba are multiple distinct peoples and speak different languages. Estimates of the Nuba population vary widely; the Sudanese government estimated that they numbered 1.07 million in 2003.
Figure 1: Subclassification of Nubian
We can propose with some confidence that the centre of gravity and hence centre of dispersion lies outside the Nuba Mountains, perhaps in the Darfur-Kordofan boundary region. We have documents in Old Nubian from the Nile region south of the first cataract (Aswan) dating from perhaps the 7C AD and good reason for relating the Old Nubian of these documents more closely to present-day Nobiin (Mahas) than to any other present variety of Nubian. Behrens (1981) has even proposed a date as much as two thousand years earlier for the presence of Nubian speakers in this area, based on proposed Nubian loans in Egyptian. We also know that the late medieval Nubian kingdom of Alwa was in control of the Nile south of Soba (10 km south of Khartoum on the Blue Nile). Place name evidence (based on Survey Department maps made from observations at the beginning of this century) shows that Nubian names occur on the Nile and nearby as far south as Kosti, but how far back this presence goes is an open question. We can be confident it predates the Arabization of the Gezira, and so is probably not less than 500 years, but it may weIl be over 2000.
The indications mentioned above would point to a movement of pre-Nobiin speakers across the Bayuda desert to the Nile as long ago as 2000 years, and perhaps a parallel movement to the Nile around Kosti of pre-Dongolawi speakers, with their subsequent spread north to later link up with the Nobiin. The tribal map of the present day marks "Nubawi" over the area east and northeast of El Obeid, and it may be that Nubian speech has only disappeared in this area in the last hundred years (see Bell 1973).
We may thus assume a large zone from Darfur in the West to the Nile in the East in which Nubian was present during a long period. From this area some Nubians must have come to settle on the northern Nuba Mountains. Whether this occurred due to pressure from Arab nomads as Arkell (1955) proposes, or whether an earlier date should be assumed is not clear. _______________________________________________
Map 1: Language distribution in the Nuba Mountains
1. Kordofanian
2. Nyimang; Temein; Kadugli
3. Daju I: Shatt, Liguri
4. Hill Nubian
5. Daju II: Lagawa Map 2: The distribution of the Nubian and Daju language groups
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Introduction
The Nuba are a group of peoples who share a common geography in Sudan’s Southern Kordofan Province, known as Jibal al-Nuba or Nuba Mountains. The origins of most Nuba peoples are obscure, but there is no doubt that they are Africans. They arrived to the area from various directions and in the course of thousands of years. Today there are over fifty Nuba tribes, who speak as many different languages. Their combined number is estimated at 2.5 million people.
2. The classification of Nuba languages
Maybe systematic archaeological research could shed more light on the origins of the Nuba people, but right now we will have to concentrate on linguistic findings. Linguistics is a complex field, not very sexy to be honest, but in many cases, it’s all we have. So we will first look at the classification of the different Nuba languages, and then move on to the question of who came to the Mountains at what time.
The Nuba Languages can be classified into members of two or perhaps three language families: Nilo-Saharan and Kordofanian.
A. The Kordofanian languages consist of four groups located in the southern and eastern areas of the Nuba Mountains: Heiban, Talodi, Rashad and Katla. Kordofanian languages are considered a branch of the Niger-Congo family, which encompasses all Bantu languages, and in general most of the languages spoken in Sub-Saharan Africa. The only thing is: Kordofanian doesn’t resemble any of the other Niger-Congo languages closely. It constitutes a group of its own and geographically also, Kordofanian is isolated. In other words: we don’t have a clue as to how these Kordofanian speaking Nuba ended up in the Nuba Mountain.
B. The Kadugli Group is located in the south east central fringe area near Kadugli. It was earlier classified as part of Kordofanian but is currently considered part of Nilo-Saharan. This is another large phylum: Dinka and Nuer are Nilo-Saharan languages, and so are many languages of Chad and Congo, as well as several languages spoken in Nigeria.
C. The rest of the Nuba languages are classified as part of a major sub-group of Nilo-Saharan called Eastern Sudanic. They consist of Hill Nubian, Daju, Timein and Nyimang. The tribes speaking Eastern Sudanic languages can be found in the north western areas of the Mountains.
Linguistic settlement As we’ve just seen in the case of the Nubian speakers, shifts in related languages can tell us something about how long ago the speakers of those languages went their own way. Unfortunately this is not very exact, as Robin Thellwall explained to me:
[the] reconstructions are based minimally on linguistic distance and extrapolated onto a fairly speculative time frame (glotto-chronology). Such a time framework is only a provisional and relative model to be tested against other evidence (archaeology, oral traditions, blood types, climate history, agricultural and animal husbandry terminology etc). This has not happened for the NubaMountains.
However, for ‘The Linguistic Settlement of the Nuba in the Mountains’ Thelwall and Schadeberg analysed all the available data from the Nuba languages, and they came up with the following hypothesis regarding the relative chronology of the linguistic settlement of the Mountains:
1. Kordofanian language speakers came earlier than all the others 2. Nyimang; Temein and Kadugli language groups followed them 3. Daju speakers of Shatt and Liguri were next 4. Hill Nubian speakers – probably somewhere between 500 and 1400 AD 5. Daju speakers around Lagawa, who settled there relatively recently.
Kordofanian Heiban, Katla, Rashad and Talodi are the current names for the different groups of Kordofanian languages that cover the eastern half of the Nuba Mountains and a large part of the centre. Within the language group, differentiation has progressed much further than in the other Nuba language groups. According to R. Thelwall ‘the family has a time depth of a minimum of 6000 years.’ This means that you would have to go back at least 6000 years in time to find all Kordofanian speakers speaking the same language. Kordofanian is classified with the Niger-Congo languages, and the nearest Niger-Congo speaking people would be found over the border of Sudan in southern Chad, in Central African Republic and in the Congo. The relationship between Kordofanian and the rest of Niger-Congo is not clear. The current subdivision of Kordofanian is as follows:
I. Heiban is spoken in a large area that has a geographical centre in the town of Heiban. It can be subdivided in an eastern section, with Kau and Werni in the south-east; a central section with Koalib, Laro, Heiban, Otoro, Shwai and Logol, and a western section with Moro and Tira.
For these tribes, memory doesn’t reach back far enough to retain any information about the origins of the people. We might learn that the Nuba of Kau, who became world-famous through the photographs of Leni Riefenstahl, have been living in their present location for at least 200 years. According to J. C. Faris:
Oral traditions document that they were in place before the first Arab Movements into the area (c. 1800, see Cunnison, 1966: 3), and remains of surface habitation, genealogies, and linguistic separation from other of the Koalib-Moro language family all indicate an even greater time span.
But what does this mean? It could be 500 years; 2000 years… we don’t know.
The Tira have an idea of where they came from, but their place of origin is still within the Nuba Mountains, and the time frame is also rather limited: According to their traditions, the Tira people […] came originally from a place called Rila, said to have been situated between Sheibun and Kadugli […]. They left for unknown reasons to settle on Tomboro hill, in the Moro massif. This tradition is corroborated by the Moro, who still remember that Tomboro […] was inhabited by Tira […] at the time when the Moro first settled in that region. Driven from Tombore by the Arabs, the Tira migrated east, a few groups to Tira Lomon, the rest to Tira el Akhdar. This final migration too place only three generations ago […]. When the fathers and grandfathers of the present generation arrived in Tira they found there already three Tira clans living, speaking the language of the immigrants and possessing an identical culture.
In connection with Tira, it might be nice to include a story told by S. C. Dunn. Having researched gold washing practices in the Nuba Mountains, he writes that gold could be found mainly in Tira Mandi, with some small deposits in Dungur and Atoro. He also went to Sheibun, which was universally believed to be a place where gold was found…
[At Jebel Shwai] Sheikh Naser, his son and several elders […] described to me roughly the position of the pits at Sheibun […]. An old Nuba who knew and had worked at Sheibun was provided as a guide; and I departed for Sheibun. During six hours of climbing around the group of little hills […] I had been led to a little hole on the hill side where some fine white clay had been extracted, to an old rain water pond, to the sites of the old villages and to some mounds of mountain debris. I then said that in my opinion there was not and never had been either gold or gold-washing at Sheibun; and the policemen with me said that was exactly what the Shawabna had told them privately the day before yesterday. [No one told me, because they] thought I would be angry.
Sheibun did turn out to be the main market where the gold from Tira Mandi was sold though.
The Moro also have only a limited awareness of their history:
The ancient home of the Moro people was on Lebu hill, in the western massif [of the Moro area]. Growing too numerous, the tribe [split: one] group remained in Lebu; the second moved to the northern edge of the massif […]; the third migrated to [Umm Dorein]. At that time the eastern massif was still uninhabited. Three or four generations ago the Moro began to settle there […]. This migration […] was prompted by the pressure of population and the search for new lanf, better protected from the Arab raiders.
The Koalib have a tradition that says that: the northern Koalib lived originally in Kortala, side by side with [a tribe called] Nyemu. Arab (?) pressure drove the Nyemu to Jebel Dair, and some of the Koalib to their present habitat. In his 2003 Land Study, Simon Harragin writes: There is historical evidence that the Koalib were once resident on the plains much further west than their current position (Sagar, 1922: 138).Together with the Nyimang, the Koalib occupied the area around Dilling before Ghulfan and Kadaru drove a wedge between them. […] However, the historical claim mainly relies on oral history.
II. Katla, which holds both Katla and Tima, is spoken in the hills southwest of Dilling. I didn’t even find any sources related to their origin.
III. Rashad can be divided into three languages: Tegali, spoken in the Tegali hills, the Rashad hills and the town of Rashad; Tagoi, spoken in Tagoi, Moreb and Tumale, and Tingal, also in the Tegali Hills.
The Nuba of the Tegali kingdom are basically the only ones to have a documented history that goes back beyond the 19th century. It doesn’t provide any clues however, to their origins. The founding stories of the kingdom speak of a ‘wise stranger’ coming to Tegali and starting a dynasty – a common theme in Sudanese traditions . I will gladly get back to the kingdom in the next chapter.
IV. Talodi is a group of languages mainly found in the southern part of the Mountains. It can be devided into Lafofa on the central Eliri range and some adjacent hills, and a large Talodi proper group that can be broken down into four groups: Talodi is spoken in Talodi town and on Jebel Talodi; Eliri on the southern Eliri range; Masakin, with Dagik and Ngile as two separate languages, is spoken in the Masakin hills; in Buram, Reikha and Daloka, and finally Tocho, branched into Acherun, Limun and Tocho.
The first Nuba people to hit the coffee tables in an impressive book by Leni Riefenstahl, were the Masakin Qisar, as she calls them. Reifenstahl stayed with the Masakin on several occasions, for weeks or months, but she doesn’t seem to have inquired after their origin. To her, they were ‘Menschen wie von einem anderen Stern’: people that might just as well have come from another star. And of course, in a sense, that is true. We don’t know where the Masakin came from, just as we don’t know where the other Nuba from the Talodi group originated.
Nyimang, Temein and Kadugli
These three language groups are unique, like the Kordofanian languages, in the fact that they are only spoken in the Nuba Mountains. Judging from the large internal linguistic diversity within each group, the Nyimang, Temein and Kadugli speaking tribes might well have been in the Mountains for more than 2000 years. They seem to have come to the Nuba Mountains in tough times, with a lot of people on the move, losing touch with one another. In the words of Thellwal and Schadeberg:
All three groups have a reasonably compact distribution within the NubaMountains: Kadugli along the southwestern edge, Temein to the West, and Nyimang to the north. This suggests outside origins and immigration from these respective directions. Assuming that equal internal diversity corresponds to some roughly consistent time depth we may argue that at this particular time in history conditions prevailed in the NubaMountains which resulted in population scattering and reduced inter-group communication. As it is more likely that such conditions originated outside the refuge area we may further speculate that migration to the NubaMountains and diversification occurred in close historical union.
There is not an awful much to tell about the origins of each individual group, but let’s have a look at them anyway:
I. Nyimang is spoken by the people living on the seven hills of Nyimang: Salara, Tendiya, Kurmeti, Nitil, Fassu, Kelara and Kakara. It is also spoken by the people in the Mandal Hills and at Sobei, and by the more distantly related Afitti in Jebel Dair. The Nyimang call themselves Ama – ‘People’ – or ama mede kolat: people of the seven hills. Little is known about their origin, but S. F. Nadel reports that:
the tribe [migrated] from a country ‘in the west’, ‘beyond Tima and Abu Ginuk’, whose name is given as Kugya.
With R. C. Stevenson this becomes Kwuja or Kwija, which could be Kubja in the El Odaiya area. According to Stevenson the Nyimang:
say that they settled first in the eastern hillsof the Nyimang range – Nitil, Kurmiti and Fassu – which they found unoccupied, and only later pushed westwards to Tendia and Salara. [At Salara] they claim to have found the Kunit (one of the Hill Nubian groups) there and to have driven them north after a severe struggle.
The way the Hill Nubian tribes surround the Nyimang makes this scenario rather improbable. Stevenson remarks that it’s more likely that the Nyimang occupied a larger territory – stretching at least as far as Dilling, until the Hill Nubians arrived.
II. Temein is spoken in the Temein hills (north of Julud); the related Keiga and Teisei are found in Keiga Jirru (west of Debri) and Teisei um-Danab (north-east of Kadugli) respectively. There is nothing to tell about the origin of the Temein, except that:
the people of Keiga Jirru claim to have migrated from Temein in the ‘distant past’, and this is supported by Temein tradition which relates that the people of both Keiga Jirru and Teisei-Umm-Danab migrated during a time of famine.
III. Kadugli as a collective name is not really covering the large range of related languages that are grouped together here. Usually Kadugli is mentioned together with Katcha and Miri; they are so closely related that they could be considered dialects rather then separate languages. There are a number of Nuba languages put together with Kadugli-Miri-Katcha as ‘unclassified’ Nilo-Saharan languages: Tulishi, Kanga, Keiga, Korongo and Tumtum. They are clearly related to each other and to Kadugli-miri-Katcha, but the exact affiliation hasn’t been determined. R. C. Stevenson calls them the Kadugli-Krongo group:
[‘the area covered by the group is very widespread; running along the south-west, its limits are Tullishi in the west and Kurondi in the south-east.] The most important hill ranges are Miri, Kadugli and Krongo, after two of which the group has been named.’ 35 In recent publications the group is referred to as the Kadu languages; I will use this term for convenience.
There is not much to tell about the origins of the people speaking one of the Kadu languages: no one knows where they came from. The linguistic and cultural affiliation among the different tribes is clear though. G. Baumann, who spent 18 months among the Miri people, doing research, says:
The Miri form part of a larger cultural and linguistic unit known as the Kadugli-Krongo group. […] My own travels in the Kadugli-Krongo region produced a recurring impression of a common cultural heritage that encompassed not only linguistic affinity, but institutions, customs, verbal concepts, and sensitivities shared across boundaries. It is true that each of the Kadugli-Krongo communities has gone its own, different way in the processes of change over recent decades. [But] recent diversification has not as yet been able to obscure or supersede the shared cultural heritage of the neighbouring groups.
Relationships between the communities are usually recognised by the people themselves, and some myths of origin exist, but only for movements within the Nuba Mountains. S. F. Nadel recorded for example that the people of Korongo:
claim close cultural and linguistic affinity with [...] Tumtum on Jebel Talodi, Dere on Jebel Illiri, and three small hill groups in the west: Tesh, Fama and Shatt Safiya. [...] I have checked its truth in Talodi, Tesh and Fama. But the people of Shatt, as I discovered, have a different language and culture and are altogether of a different ethnic stock. The Korongo attribute this community of culture to the common origin of the today widely scattered groups. According to Korongo tradition, Jebel Tabuli, a large, now uninhabited, hill massif east of Korongo, was the ancient home of these different groups.
Another example can be given for the people of Tulishi:
The Tullishi people assert, with the rigidity of a dogma, that they have ‘always’ lived in their hills, unaffected by immigrations. […] The Tullishi people are fully aware of [the] affinity with Kamdang and Truj, but have no traditions of origin or past migrations which might attempt to explain this tribal kinship. They have such traditions with regard to the people of Miri (as also of Jebel Damik and Keiga), with whom they claim a common, or closely similar, language, and common clans. [They lived closely together once, but they split up after a dispute.] The Miri people, we may add, share the tradition of the ancient kinship of the two tribes.
This is confirmed by G. Baumann, who writes: The mythical link with Tulishi is quite universally recalled […]. Formerly, the Tulishi people lived here on top of a hill called Igyol. [They did something wrong] so they migrated to present home.
And that’s it as far as these the Nyimang, the Temein and the Kadugli language speaking Nuba are concerned.
Hill Nubian As discussed at length above, the Hill Nubian speaking tribes came to the Mountains from the North, probably before 1400 AD. The different languages are classified as follows:
Ghulfan and Kadaru are grouped together. Ghulfan is spoken in Ghulfan Kurgul and Ghulfan Morung; Kadaru in the hill communites of Kadaru, Kururu, Kafir, Kurtala, Dabatna and Kuldaji.
Dilling is spoken in the town and the surrounding villages
Dair, in the western and southern parts of Jebel Dair
Karko in the Karko Hills and Dulman; maybe also Abu Jinik and Tabaq.
Wali in the Wali Hills
Thelwall and Schadeberg can’t say more as to why or when exactly the Hill Nubians migrated south:
Whether this occurred due to pressure from Arab nomads as Arkell proposes, or whether an earlier date should be assumed is not clear. The relative closeness of the Hi1l Nubian dialects to each other does not suggest the presence of isolated Nubian communities in these hills for several millennia.
It was probably a gradual process. R. C. Stevenson writes:
Nubian speech was brought to the northern NubaMountains by tribal movements accelerated by the Arab influx during the past few centuries. In Rüppell’s time (mid 1820s) it was still spoken on the plains south of El Obeid.
The most detailed account of how some of the Hill Nubians came to the Nuba Mountains is given by S. F. Nadel:
The Warke, or Dilling people, have preserved very clear traditions of their origin and past history. Originally, these traditions state, the tribe was living at Abdel Baka in the Ghadayat, under the ‘Sultans’ of that Kingdom, The Ghadayat are said to have been of Fung origin, and ethnically related to the Warke. Later Arab attacks forced the latter to emigrate. They moved first to Boti (now known as Sungikai) , then to Shirma, or Jebel Tukuma (ten miles east of Dilling), and finally to Dilling. The Ghadayat, in their old home, are said to have become ‘like Arabs’, while the Warke ‘became Nuba’. The ancient link, however, survived in the political sphere; the Dilling people remained tributary to the Sultans of Abdel Baka and still recognize, symbolically, their suzerainty […] The genealogy of Dilling chiefs mentions ten who already resided in Dilling. Their relationship is not remembered, but we may assume that their reign embraces a period of no less, and probably more, than 100 years.
The Daju speaking tribes
The Daju speaking tribes came to the Nuba Mountains from the west, from a Daju Kingdom that we know conveniently little about. The Kingdom was based, as early perhaps as 1200 AD, in Jebel Marrah, a rain-fed mountain range in an otherwise arid country. The Daju controlled the area between southern Jebel Marra and the western edges of the Nuba Mountains. They were displaced by the Tunjur at the end of the fourteenth century, and left no records besides a list of kings that ends with King Kasi Furogé. The Daju were scattered by the Tunjur and we find them back in some isolated pockets across a wide area of Chad and Sudan, in the regions of Kordofan, Darfur, and Wadai.
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by L': ^Do you disagree with my citation of Lefkowitz? if so, why?
I haven't read much of her work, but from what I've seen she can acknowledge the scientific evidence (e.g., that Egyptians came from the south)
It is axiomatic in human intercourse that one must always consider the source.
i.e. It is always dangerous to quote a "KNOWN" liar, because one never knows when or where the truth (if there is any) ends and the lie begins.
In the case of Mary Lefkowitz, the fact that she is a "KNOWN" liar is demonstrable in the fact that her work in the field is constantly proven false.
Furthermore, Lefkowitz earned her B.A. from Wellesley College in 1957 and received her Ph.D. in classical philology from Radcliffe College (now part of Harvard University) in 1961.
Therefore Lefkowitz is "COMPLETELY UNQUALIFIED" to venture an opinion on GREEK, much less AFRICAN history.
But yet she had a successful book on the very SAME subject matter that she is "COMPLETELY UNQUALIFIED" to speak on.
Proving two things:
She is a degenerate liar - like Lioness.
Jews have no regard for the truth. And their continued control of the worlds media is a very bad and dangerous thing.
Further, it may have been Jews who started these White myths about your beginnings. Look at the bullsh1t that they have filled Americans minds with, through their early control of Movies and Television.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: I believe I can make out scars on the forehead look at the last guy and the guy at the center Nuer That meant that these folks were much further north or the Kemites struck further south than we thought.
I believe it to be the former-- that these folks were much further north originally. Both the Nuer and the closely related Dinka peoples once lived along the White Nile though unfortunately they inhabit the southern tributaries today due to the constant harassment and enslavement of 'Arab' northerners. Though both groups share folk traditions of an ancestral land even farther north. As Kalonji pointed out, many 'Nubiologists' (I hate that name) and other archaeologists think this may very well be the case judging from material remains in Upper Nubia that bear a striking resemblance to Dinka and Nuer material. Many scholars argue Upper Nubia to be the homeland of ancestral Western Nilotic which gave rise to both proto-Dinka-Nuer and proto-Luo. Unfortunately archaeology in Sudan is not as active as Egypt and ongoing political strife with the 'Arab' government hasn't made things better for investigation.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Siptah: @Lioness,... You have poor observation...
Siptah, don't even bother. You are talking to the same idiot who thinks Tut below...
looks like this.
Djehuti, there are people who look similar in different parts of the world. In some cases they may have common ancestry in other case while looking the same they may have no common ancestry. Keita pointed this out in one of his lectures.
But you didn't say that. You just say that the above two don't look similar. That is just plain stupid and it shows your bias.
I have the ability to adapt to new information. You don't because you are trying to impress people.
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by L': They could be from further south of Sudan. Something that Mary Lefkowitz points out:
quote:"The Nubian tribute-bearers are painted in two skin tones, black and dark brown. These tones do not necessarily represent actual skin tones in real life but may serve to distinguish each tribute-bearer from the next in a row in which the figures overlap. Alternatively, the brown-skinned people may be of Nubian origin, and the black-skinned ones may be farther south 9Trigger 1978, 33). The shading of skin tones in Egyptian tomb paintings, which varies considerably, may not be a certain criterion for distinguishing race. Specific symbols of ethnic identity can also vary. Identifying race in Egyptian representational art, again, is difficult to do- probably because race (as opposed to ethnic affiliation, that is, Egyptians versus all non-Egyptians) was not a criterion for differentiation used by the ancient Egyptians...
--Mary Lefkowitz
These groups are all nubians,egyptians did reach farther south for raiding.Egyptians could not take over southern nubia.
I believe the Nuer and Dinka ancestral homanlad was further north too,but i do not believe it was upper or southern nubia. some books i have read mention it was around the areas of the blue nile and white or just abit further south around the white and blue. closer to the ancient city of sennar in sudan.kushites and medieval nubians raided these areas for slaves.
That's one reason the south does not get to well with the north.of course the brainwash black arabs(former nubians) made things worse in modern times.
Anyway these are kushite/nubians of upper and southern nubia,not southern sudanese.This has been made clear by scholars,black or white already.
They tend to have on average round heads and darker skins on average then original lower nubians.later in kushite/nubian history they took over lower nubia,while the original population decline,went away or was taken to egypt arond the new kingdo period. the kushites moved right in later.
When Trigger means further south,he means the homeland of upper and southern nubia,since the areas resisted egyptian raids and conquest the most.kept mind when some of these scholars talk about nubia,they mean lower nubia and sometimes they just call upper and southern nubia thier original names.other times they call nubia(upper and southern).
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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How come we never see them? The Egyptians beat their asses too.
Also note the features of the above Egyptians here, small noses, small mouths. They don't look like the following people's features:
detail from Temple of Ramesses II, Abu Simbel
Some of the Egyptians look Caucasoid you have to admit all though you don't like to as above Horemheb himself and the small noses, small mouth scribes and soldiers. They are not at all prognostic in the jaw either. What is the explanation? They don't look Ethiopian or Somali either. Ethiopians and Somalians tend to have have longer heads and longer features , more "semitic" nose that point downward. However you would describe them they do not look like them in these reliefs. What if what we call the above Egyptians "Caucasoid" type, that's what they look like BUT that maybe they did not originate in Central Asia but in Egypt and that Egypt was comprised of some of them and others of a Negroid type like you and me?
Nice try, but the weren't Caucasians, hence indo-Aryans.
They were indigenous Africans. Clustering with other African populations. As studies have shown. So no, the were not a caucasiod type!
I have asked you and others have have you been to the region you speak of all day....you seem not being able to answer this simple question to my surprise.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by L': Like hell you "adapt". You fail to understand any info we give you.
They obviously can't comprehend the term adaption. They can't look beyond that. They think only folks outside of African have adapted to climate and circumstances.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Mike look at this:
yes here we have Nubians and they have bigger noses.
Now on to this:
^^^Mike some of the the people you say were all black could easily be people you repeatedly call "sand niggers" or "Turks".
Now going to a different item:
Juba II of Mauritania
^^^^what's this? More blacks?
Mike, real talk, if the above person was rendered in a stone relief you would say he's black correct? If he were rendered in stone you could not distinguish him from a Persian or any number of people in the Mid East.
What is black about this man? He has a relatively dark complexion that's all. Like 80% of the world population. He is not Egyptian nor does he descent from the ancient Egyptains.
You keep trying day-in-day-out. But it all remains desperate attempts....Matilda!
Are nigritos Nuba people, now?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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