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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl: [qb] I'll make it easier for you to falsify my hypothesis. I'll eliminate the Initial Series Long Count component. [qb]A Calendar round in which each day has two names- one from a combination of numbers 1 to 13 and 20 day names and two from a 365-day calendar of 18 20-day months and 1 5-day month in which a day with the same two names will not repeat for 52 years can only be found in Mesoamerica and nowhere else in the world.[/qb] All you have to to falsify this hypothesis is to show evidence for the existence of this in Africa, or somewhere else in the world. [/qb][/QUOTE]This was falsified by Dr. Wiener almost 100 years ago. Leo Wiener, in [b]Africa and the Discovery of America [/b]discussed the fact that the West African zodiacs are of 13 months like that of the Amerindians ( Vol.3, p.279). This information is based on the work of F.Bork, Tierkreise auf westafrikanischen Kalebassen, in Mitteilungen der vorderasiatischen Gesellschaft, Vol.21, p.266. [/QUOTE][/qb] LOL. Apparently you don't know the meaning of "falsify" to do this you 1) have to deal with the entire hypothesis and 2) present some evidence. Assertions are not evidence. Let us start with Wiener. Wiener presents [qb]NO[/qb] evidence, he makes assertions which are, in themselves valueless since he was not an expert on Mesoamerica or the Maya. 1) Notice that what you need to falsify is the non-existence of [qb]the 52-year Calendar Round[/qb] not just the 260-day tzolkin anywhere else in the world. 2) Wiener: Hereis the total [qb]evidence[/qb] presented by Wiener: From Wiener, Leo. 1922 [1971 Kraus Reprint Co.] [i] Africa and the discovery of America[/i] vol. 3. Philadelphia: Innes & Sons Unlike Winters, I will quote the relevant passages [QUOTE] pp. 270-71 For astrological purposes there was in use a division of the zodiac in thirteen parts, such as has been found ion three calabashes in western Africa , and it is a curious fact that a similar division into thirteen is recorded only among the Kirghizes [[qb]in Afghanistan[/qb]] and in America. The division of the year into thirteen parts would demand a twenty-eight day month, but, in reality, the order is reversed, for we still have among the Berbers a division of the year into twenty-eight parts, of thirteen days each, (. . .), which is based on the astronomical or astrological calculations of the Arabs, whose twenty-eight lunar mansions of thirteen days each were, in the IX. Century or later, adopted from the Hindus, (Nallino..), who had by that time arranged the twenty-eight [i]nakshatras[/i], or constellations, into equally spaced divisions of the Zodiac, which naturally led to the thirteen days unit of time.[/QUOTE]The only evidence presented for African calabashes is a citation to F. Bork, 1916-17. "Tierkreise auf westafrikanischen Kalebassen," in [i]Mitteilungen der vorderasiatischen Gesellschaft[/i] vol. XXI pp. 266-ff [qb]BUT[/qb] Wiener does not tell us what Bork found, does not have a picture of what these calabashes look like, etc. Thus, NO evidence is presented. I am in the process of getting Bork's paper so that we can all see what this evidence is supposed to be, but without it Wiener [qb]has not "proved" a thing[/qb]. Also notice that Wiener points out that dividing a year into 13 parts would require 28-day months and that he finds that the Berbers instead have 28"months" of 13-days each and goes on to ascribe these to Arab astrological calculations. Hardly a rousing proof of African 13 x20 time keeping and definitely not a 52-year "Calendar Round" Another Wiener proofless assertion [QUOTE]p. 278 In Arabic. . [i]quimar[/i] refers to any game of chance. The Spanish-Arabic dictionary in the beginning of the XVI. Century translates Spanish “dados” and “naypes” by [i]quimar[/i], which shows that even at that late date “dice” and “cards” were not yet fully distinguished. But “cards” were called [i]naypes[/i] in Spanish from Arabic () [i]naib[/i] “lieutenant,” and the first fundamental row of the geomantic [i]gadwal[/i] is called [i]alanaua[/i], (ref. 3) unquestionably from [i]naib[/i] “lieutenant, regent,” for we find this word as [i]laibe[/i] “story” in Wolof, which indicates that in the Western Sudan the game was closely related to the [i]gadwal[/i]. Cards seem not to have been known before the end of the XIV. Century, and it is significant that, although the original deck of cards had 4X18 and more cards, it soon developed into a deck of 4X13 cards, in which the 13 is identical with the calabash zodiacs of western Africa. It, [qb]therefore, follows from this that in western Africa there was, for reasons which we do not at present know, in vogue the 4X13 astrological cycle, which forms the same cycle in Mexico and Central America[/qb][/QUOTE]Again, pure assertion with no evidence. I cannot believe that readers of ES can think that this "proves" that the Mande brought the 260-day calendar, much less the 52-year Calendar Round, to the Olmecs, 500 B.C. [QUOTE][qb]You can still keep time without the 365 day Mayan calendar as proven by contemporary Americans. Coe and Stone, Reading the Maya Glyphs wrote : "The first part of a Calendar Round is the 260-day Count, often called in the literature by the ersatz Maya name "tsolk'in". This is the eternally repeating cycle , and concist of the numbers 1 through 13, permuting against a minicycle of 20 named days. Since 13 and 20 have no common denominator, a particular day name will not recur with a particular coefficient until 260 days have passed.[b] No one knows exactly when this extremely sacred calendar was invented, but it was certainly already ancient by the time the Classic period began. There are still highland Maya calendar priests who can calculate the day in the 260-day Count, and [b]it is apparent that this basic way of time-reckoning has never slipped a day since its inception"[/b] (pp.41-42). This sacre calendar has 13 months of 20 days (13x20=260). John Montgomery, How to Read Maya Hieroglyphs, wrote "The Tzolk'in or 260 day Sacred Almanac, was widely used in ancient times for divinatory purposes.[b] Guatemalan Maya and other cultures in Mexico still use it as a means of "day keeping". [/b]" (p.74). . [/qb][/QUOTE]Sometimes I think that you must live in an alternate universe where repeating an error over and over again will somehow magically transmute it into being true. I won't waste any time reposting the reams of contrary evidence including an e-mail from Mike Coe explicitly telling you thqt you have misquoted and misunderstood him. You get by with this because your acolytes and others will not bother to check out your claims. If readers of ES are not too lazy or uninterested complete rebuttals are available here http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000348 [/QB][/QUOTE]
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