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Author Topic: why Australian Aborigenes have straight hair
the lioness,
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why do Australian Aborigenes have straight hair?

for the same reason Arabs, Iranians, Iraqis, Pakistanis and Indians have straight hair.

example:

 -

all of these regions are along the route between Africa and Australia and are much closer to Africa.

No need to bother pondering Australia, straight hair is predominant in regions much closer to Africa some with very dark skin.

_______________________________________________________

sidebar:
Also of Austrailians:

Caroline Wilkenson, a Forensic anthropologist,said (2004)

1) Australoids have the largest brow ridges

2) Europeans have the second largest brow ridges

3) Africans have the third largest brow ridges

4) East Asians are "absent brow ridges."

Austrailans have a combination of traits, some closer to Africans others closer to Eurasians, ex. hair, brow ridge,(limb ratios-I'm not sure about)

________________________________________________________

Theory: somewhere in the Middle East/South West Asia straight straight hair became predominant in most humans.
For instance closer to Africa en route to Australia includes countries such as Iraq, Iran and Pakistan.

People there have mainly straight hair. This may have been an adaptation to colder tempratures (esp nightime)

This is before people even got to India. Many Arabs already have dark skin (Arabia had a lot of intermingling between people coming frorm North and South, including Africans)

The adaptation of skin and hair are too separate things
and each may change at different rates of time.

if you have people like Iraqis/Iranians with straight hair and medium light skin and they were to go South, for example settle in Southern India, they could have straight hair but their skin would darken.
It is theorized that afro kinky hair is an adpatation to humidity.
South India is not as humid as a tropical rain forest.
So this is how you can have straight hair and dark skin.
People start out in a tropical hot humid environment, they leave and are transformed by the realtively colder/drier climate like Iraq or Iran but later go agian into a higher UV environment like South India (same latitude as Sudan) They retain the straight hair from before but acquire dark skin. The same would be true of Austrailians. As people pass through different climates they can retain some traits before reaching a final destination.

.

Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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straight hair is predominant in regions much closer to Africa

Straight hair is predominant in regions very
distant from Africa as well. Artic peoples have
straight hair for example.

Theory: somewhere in the Middle East/South West Asia straight straight hair became predominant in most humans

^^Do you have any credible scholarship to back up
this "theory" of yours?


People there have mainly straight hair. This may have been an adaptation to colder tempratures (esp nightime)

^^Sources in support? And if straight hair depends
on colder temperatures, then the cold nighttime
temperatures of African deserts would fit the bill
based on your own argument, as well as the cooler
high altitude zones as in many places of East Africa.


It is theorized that afro kinky hair is an adpatation to humidity.

There is also a flaw in your theory. If humidity
is responsible for kinky hair, why do peoples in
hot, humid tropical jungle environments as in
parts of Asia and South America have straight
hair? Parts of Ecuador, Columbia and Brazil, and
in Asia- Indonesia, sit on the equator for example,
in the tropical zone, yet many of the native peoples
of these regions have straight hair. How do you explain this?
Provide credible scholarly sources with your response.


People start out in a tropical hot humid environment, they leave and are transformed by the realtively colder/drier climate like Iraq or Iran but later go agian into a higher UV environment like South India (same latitude as Sudan) They retain the straight hair from before but acquire dark skin. The same would be true of Austrailians. As people pass through different climates they can retain some traits before reaching a final destination.

According to your theory, everyone started out with
kinky hair in Africa, left Africa and "switched"
to straight hair, and never go back kinky evermore.
But if so, why do populations in Papua New Guinea
and other parts of the pacific and even India have
kinky hair, in proximity with straight hair
populations? Papuans and Indonesians are a few
hundred miles apart depending on the territory
analyzed but a highly variable hair mix exists. Why?
According to your theory, when they left Africa and
"switched" to straight hair, they should not have
"gone back" to kinky. And why would they lose
dark skin, yet retain straight hair? What gene
or envuironmental variable is responsible for
this strange mismatch? Please elucidate with credible
sources to explain this mystic theory, not just
your "feelings" about it...

------------------------------------------------------------------

HAIR RECAP


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Ancient Egyptian hair

Across the web assorted "biodiversity" proponents, wage a 'racial war' using hair studies of ancient Egyptians to prove a "Caucasian Egypt". But in fact the hair of Africans is highly variable, debunking their simplistic claims.

The hair of Africans is highly variable, ranging from tight curls of South African Bantu, to the loose curls and straight hair of peoples of East and NE Africa, all indigenously evolved over millennia as part of Africa’s high genetic diversity. This diversity undermines and ultimately dismisses simplistic "racial" claims based on hair.


Inconsistencies of the skewed "true negro" model and definitions of African hair


Dubious assertions, double standards and outmoded racial hair claims:
Czech anthropologist Strouhal's 1971 study touched on hair, and advanced the most extreme racial definitions, claiming Nubians to be white Europids overrun by later waves of Negroes, and that few Negroes appeared in Egypt until the New Kingdom. Indeed, Strouhal went so far as to argue that 'Negroes' failed to survive long in Egypt, because they were ill-adapted to its arid climate! Tell that to the Saharans, Sudanese and Nubians! Such dubious claims have been thoroughly debunked by modern scholarship, however they continue in various guises by those who attempt to use "hair" to assign race 'percents' and categories to the ancients. Attempts to define racial categories based on the ancient hair rely heavily on extreme definitions, with "Negroids" typically being defined as narrowly as possible. Everything not meeting the extreme "type" is then classified as something else, such as "Caucasian".

Kieta (1990, Studies of Crania from Northern Africa) notes that while many scholars in the field have used an extreme "true negro" definition for African peoples, few have attempted to apply the same model in reverse and define a "true white." Such racial double standards are typical of much scholarship on the ancient Nile Valley peoples. A consistent approach for example would define the straight hair in Strouhal's hair sample as an exclusive Caucasian marker (10 out of 49 or approximately 20%) and make the rest (wavy and curled) hybrid or negro, at >80%. Assorted writers who support the Aryan race percent model however, are careful to avoid such consistency and typically only run the comparison one way.

QUOTE:
"Strouhal (1971) microscopically examined some hair which had been preserved on a Badarian skull. The analysis was interpreted as suggesting a stereotypical tropical African-European hybrid (mulatto). However this hair is grossly no different from that of Fulani, some Kanuri, or Somali and does not require a gene flow explanation any more than curly hair in Greece necessarily does. Extremely "wooly" hair is not the only kind native to tropical Africa.." (S. O. Y. Keita. (1993). "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54)



Disturbing attempts to use hair to prove race theories:

Fletcher (2002) in Egyptian Hair and Wigs, gives an example of what she calls "disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender" involving 1800s European researcher F. Petrie, who sometimes sought to use excavation reports to prove his theories of Aegean settlers flowing into Egypt. Such disturbing attempts continue today in the use of hair for race category or percentage claims involving the ancient peoples, such as the "racial" analysis seen on several Internet blogs and websites, some thinly disguised fronts for neo-nazi groups or sympathizers.

Hair study applied a stereotyped "true negro" model and used late period samples of Egypt, after the coming of Greeks, Hyskos, etc as "representative" excluding the previous 2500 years of ancient civilization. A study of the hair of Egyptian mummies by Czech anthropologists Titlbachova and Titllbach (1977) (reported in Strouhal 1977) using only late period samples found a wide range of hair in mummies. Of the 14 samples, only 4 were from the south of Egypt, and none of the 14 samples were earlier than the 18th Dynasty. Essentially the previous 2,000 years + of Egyptain civilization and peopling are not represented. Only the narrowest definition is used to identify 'true negro' types'. All other intermediate types were deemed 'non-negroid.' If a similar procedure is used in reverse and designates only straight hair as a marker of a European, then only 4 out of 14 or 29% of the samples can be deemed "Caucasoid." Below is a breakdown of the Czech data:

Sample# 5- 18th-21st dynasties- Deir el medina- curly
Sample# 8- 21st-25th dynasties- hair looks straight
Sample# 11- Late to Greek Period- hair partly wavy
Sample# 18- Late period Egypt- hair fine diameter
Sample# 19- Greek period- wavy hair
Sample# 29- 18-21st Dynasties- Deir El Medina- hair shape unascertainable - south
Sample# 31- 18-21st dynasties- Deir El Median- wavy to curly - south
Sample# 33- 21st-25th dynasties- appears straight
Sample# 34- 21st-25th dynasties- shape difficult to determine
Sample# 35- 21st-25th dynasties- wavy shape
Sample# 40- 21-25th Dynasties- hair curly,
Sample# 44- 21-25th Dynasties- appears straight
Sample# 45- 21-25th Dynasties- appears wavy
Sample# 46- Kharga Oasis- 4th-5th centuries AD


Using modern technology, the same Aryan Race models are undercut with the data actually showing that Egyptians group closer to Africans than vaunted white Nordics.

[1]"Nordic hair measurements"[/i]

Neo-Nazis and sympathizers tout the work of German researcher Pruner-Bey in the 1800s which derived racial indexes of hair including Negroes, Egyptians and Germans. Germanic hair is closer to that of the Egyptians they assert. But is it as they claim?

(Data of Bruner-Bey 1864- 'On human hair as a race character')
- Negroid index: 57.40
- Egyptian index: 69.94
- White Germans: 66.33
Neo-Nazi conclusion: White German Nordics are 'closer' to Egyptians

Modern data using electron microscopes- Conti-Fuhrman & Massa (1972). Massa and Masali (1980)

Compare to Pruner Bey's 1864 data:
- Negroid index: 57.40
- Egyptian index: 60.02 (modern electron microscope data)
White Germans: 66.33
______________________________________________________________________________
Conclusion using modern microscope data: Negroes much ‘closer’ to Egyptians than Nordics
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Using hair for race identification as older research does can be shaky, but even when used, it undercuts ‘Aryan” clams as shown above.

Fletcher 2002 decries “"disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender..”
Other credible scientists note:

"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories. Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable".
--Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2



Environmental factors can influence hair color, and the Egyptians routinely placed hair from different sources in mummy wrappings, making claims of "Nordic-haired" or "white" Egyptians dubious.


Mummification practices and dyeing of hair. Hair studies of mummies note that color is often influenced by environmental factors at burial sites. Brothwell and Spearman (1963) point out that reddish-brown ancient color hair is usually the result of partial oxidation of the melanin pigment. Other causes of hair color "blonding" involve bleaching, caused by the alkaline in the mummification process. Color also varies due to the Egyptian practice of dyeing hair with henna. Other samples show individuals lightening the hair using vegetable colorants. Thus variations in hair color among mummies do not necessarily suggest the presence of blond or red-haired Europeans or Near Easterners flitting about Egypt before being mummified, but the influence of environmental factors.

Egyptian practice of putting locks of hair in mummy wrappings. Racial analysis is also made problematic by the Egyptian practice of burying hair, in many "votive or funerary deposits buried separately from the body, a practice found from Predynastic to Roman times despite its frequent omission from excavation reports." (Fletcher 2002) In examining hair samples Fletcher (2004) notes that care is needed to determine what is natural scalp hair, versus hair from a wig, versus hair extensions to natural locks. Tracking the exact source of hair is also critical since the Egyptians were known to have placed locks of hair from different sources among mummy wrappings. (The Search for Nefertiti, By Joann Fletcher, HarperCollins, 2004, p. 93-94, 96)


Egyptians shaved much of their natural hair off and used wigs extensively as covering, obtaining much of the hair for wigs through trade. Discoveries" of "Aryan" or 'Nordic" hair are thus hardly 'proof' of incoming Caucasoids, but may be simply hair purchased from some source and made into a wig. This is much less dramatic than the exciting picture of inflowing 'Aryan' hordes.


The ancient Egyptians shaved off much of their own natural hair as a matter of personal hygiene and custom, and wore wigs in public. According to the Encyclopedia of body adornment
(Margo DeMello, 2007, Greenwood Publishing Group, p. 101), "Boys and girls until puberty wore their hair shaved except for a side locl left on the side of their head. Many adults- both men and women- also shaved their hair as a way of coping with heat and lice. However, adults did not go about bald, and instead wore wigs in public and in private.. Wigs were initially worn by the elites, but later worn by women of all classes.."

The widespread use of wigs in ancient Egypt thus complicates and contradicts attempts at 'racial' analysis. Fletcher (2002) shows that many Egyptian wigs have been found with what is defined as straighter 'cynotrichous' hair. This however is hardly a marker of massive European or Near Eastern presence or admixture. Fletcher notes that the Egyptians often eschewed their own personal hair, shaving carefully and using wigs widely. The hair for these wigs was often obtained through trade. Indeed, "hair itself being a valuable commodity ranked alongside gold and incense in account lists from the town of Kahun." Image gallery | Articles | Google

Egyptian trading links with other regions is well known, and a commodity like straighter 'cynotrichous' hair could have been easily obtained via the Sahara, Levant, the Maghreb, Mediterranean contacts, or even the hair of Asiatic war captives or casualties from Egypt's numerous conflicts. There is little need to postulate mass influxes of European admixtures or populations to account for hair types in wigs. The limb proportion studies of the ancient Egyptians showing them to be much more related to tropical types than to Europids, is further demonstration of the fallacy of using hair as 'proof' of a 'Aryan' or predominantly European admixed Egypt.



Nubian wigs and wigs in Egypt


Such exchanges or use of hair appear elsewhere in the Nile valley. Tomb finds show Nubians themselves wearing wigs of straight hair. But one Nubian from the Royal valley, of the 12th century, named Maherpra, was found to be wearing a wig himself, made up of tightly curled 'negroid' hair, on top of his natural covering (Fletcher 2002). The so-called "Nubian wig" also appears in Egyptian art relief's depicting daily life, a stylistic arrangement thought to imitate those found in southern Egypt or Nubia. Such wigs appear to have been popular with both Egyptians and Nubians. Fletcher 2004 notes that the famous queen Nefertiti made frequent use of the Nubian wig: "Nefertiti and her daughter seem to have set a trend for wearing the Nubian wig.. a coiffure first worn by Nubian mercenaries and clearly associated with the military." A detail of a wall scene in Theban tomb TT.55 shows the queen wearing the Nubian wig.
Infantrymen from the Nubia. Note both bow and battle-axe carried into combat.

Nubian infantrymen shown with distinctive Nubian wig. From Deir el-Bahri, Temple of Hatshepsut New Kingdom, Eighteenth Dynasty, 1480 B.C.


Hair studies of Nubians show built-in African genetic variability

Hair studies of Nubians have also been undertaken. One study at Semna, in Nubia (Daniel Hrdy 1978- Analysis of Hair Samples of Mummies from Semna South, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, (1978) 49: 277-262), found curling patterns intermediate between Northwest European and African samples. The X-group, especially males, showed more African elements than the Meroitic in the curling variables. Crimping and curvature data patterned in a northwest Europe direction. These data plots however do not necessarily indicate race admixture or percentages, or the presence of European migrants or colonists (see Keita 2005 below), but rather a data pattern of variation in how hair curls, and native African diversity which cases substantial overlap with non-African groups. This is a routine occurrence within human groups.

Africa has the highest phenotypic variation, just as it has the highest geentic variation- accommodating a wide range of features for its peoples without the need for any "race mix: Relethford (2001) shows that ".. methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies." (Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5, October 2001, pp. 629-636) Hanihara 2003 notes that [significant] "..intraregional diversity are present in Subsaharan Africans.." While ancient Egypt had gene flow in various eras, hair variations easily fall under this pattern of built-in, indigenous diversity, as well as the above noted cultural practice of using wigs with hair from different places obtained through trade.

Among Europeans for example, some people have curlier hair and some have straighter hair than others. Various peoples of East and West Africa also have narrow noses, which are different from other peoples elsewhere in Africa, nevertheless they still remain Africans. DNA studies also note greater variation within selected populations that without. Since Africa has the highest genetic diversity in the world, such routine variation in characteristics such as hair need not indicate any racial percentage or admixture, but simply part of the built-in genetic diversity of the ancient peoples on the continent. Indeed, the Semna study author notes that blondism, especially in young children, is common in many dark-haired populations (e.g., Australian, Melanesian), and is still found in some Nubian villages. As regards hair color variation, reddish type hair is associated with the presence of pheomelanin, which can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well. See "Rameses" below. Albinism is another source of red hair.


Dubious attempts at 'racial analysis' using Nubian hair and crania. Assorted supporters of the stereotypical Aryan 'race' model attempt to use hair to argue for a predominantly 'white' Nubia. But as noted above, such attempts are dubious given built-in African genetic diversity. Often 'racial' hair claims attempt to link on with cranial studies purporting to match ancient Nubians with Swedes, Frenchmen, etc. But such claims are also dubious. In a detailed analysis of the Fordisc computer program used to put forward such claims, Williams, Armelagos, et al. (2005) found that the program created ludicrous "matches" between the ancient Nubian crania and peoples from Hungary, Japan, Easter Island and a host of others in far-flung regions! Their conclusion was that the diversity of human populations in the databank explained such wide ranging matches. Such objective mainstream analyses debunk obsolete and improbable claims of 'racial' migrations of alleged Frenchman, Hungarians, or other whites into ancient Nubia, or equally improbable racial 'percentages' supposedly quantifying such claims. (Frank l'engle Williams, Robert L. Belcher, and George J . Armelagos, "Forensic Misclassification of Ancient Nubian Crania: Implications for Assumptions about Human Variation," Current Anthropology, volume 46 (2005), pages 340-346)

Alleged massive influx of Europeans and Middle Easterners to give the ancient peoples hair variation did not happen. Such variation was already in place as part of Africa' built in genetic and phenotypic diversity.
As regards diameter, the average diameter of the Semna sample was close to both the Northwest European and East African samples. This again suggests a range of built-in African indigenous variability, and calls into questions various migration theories to the Nile Valley. One study for example (Keita 2005) tested the model of C. Loring Brace (1993) as to the notion of incoming European migrants replacing indigenous peoples of the Nile Valley. Brace's work had also suggested a relationship between northwest Europeans such as Scandanavians and African peoples of the Horn. Data analysis failed to support this model, instead clustering samples much closer to African series than to Europeans. Keita concluded that similarities between African data in his survey (skulls, etc) and non-Africans was not due to gene flow, but a subset of built-in African variability.

Ancient Egyptians cluster much closer to other Egyptians and Nubians. A later study by Brace, (Brace 2005- The questionable contribution..) groups ancient Egyptian populations like the Naqada closer to Nubians and Somalis than European, Mediterranean or Middle Eastern populations, and places various Nubians samples closer to Tanzanian, Dahomeian, and Congoid data points than to Europeans and Middle easterners. The limb proportion studies of Zakrzewski (2003) (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.) showing the tropical body plan of the ancient Egyptians also undercuts theories of inflowing European or near Eastern colonists, or the 'native Europid' model of Strouhal (1971).


The yellowish-red-hair of Rameses: proof of a Nordic Egypt?

Red hair itself is within the range of African diversity or that of dark-skinned peoples. Native black Australoids for example routinely produce blonde hair:

Detailed microscopic analysis during the 1980s (Balout 1985) identified some of the hair of Egyptian Pharoah Rameses II as being a yellowish-red. Such a finding should not be surprising given the wide range of physical variability in Africa, the most genetically diverse region on earth, out of which flowed other population groups. Indeed, blondism and various other hair shades are not unknown in East Africa or Nubia, particularly in children, nor are such hair color variants uncommon in dark-haired or dark skinned populations like the Australians. (Hrdy 1978) Given the range of genetic variability in Africa, a red-haired Rameses is hardly unusual. Rameses' reign, in the 19th Dynasty, came over 1,500 years after the Egyptian state had been established, and after the Hyskos interlude. Such latecomers to Egypt, like the Hyskos, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs etc would add their own genetic strands to the nation’s mix. Whatever the blend of genes that occurred with Rameses, his hair offers little supposed "proof" of a "white" or "Nordic" Egypt. If anything, X-rays of the royal mummies from earlier Dynasties by mainstream scientists show that the Egyptians pharaohs and other royals had varied 'Negroid' leanings. See X-Rays of the Royal mummies here, or here.

Pheomelanin and Rameses- found in light and dark-haired populations: The finding of Rameses “red” hair also deserves further scrutiny. The analysis found evidence of dyeing to make the hair yellowish-red, but some elements were untouched by the dye. These elements of yellowish-red hair in Balout’s study, were established on the basis of the presence of pheomelanin, a red-brown polymeric pigment in the skin and hair of humans. However, pheomelanin can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well, which gives it a reddish hue. Most natural melanins contain sulfur, which is typically associated with pheomelanin. In scientific tests of melanin, black hair contained as much as 5% sulfur, 3% lower than the 8.8% found in Irish red hair, but exceeding the 2.3% found in Scandinavian blond hair. (Jolles, et al. 1996) Thus the yellowish-red hair discovered on Rameses is well within the range of human variation for dark haired people, whatever the exact gene combination that led to the condition.

Rameses hair was not a typical European red, but yellowish-red, within African variation. It was also not ultra straight, further undermining claims of "Nordic" influence. Somalians and Ethiopians are SUB-SAHARANS and they routinely produce straight-haired people without the need for any "race mix" to explain why. The analysis on Rameses also did not show classic "European" red hair but hair of a light red to yellowish tinge. Black haired or dark-skinned populations are quite capable of producing such yellowish-red color variants on their own, as can be seen in today's east and northeast Africa (see child's photo above). Nor is such color variation unusual to Africa. Native dark-skinned populations in Australia, routinely produce people with blond or reddish hair. As noted above, ultra diverse Africa is the original source of such variation.

The analysis also found the hair to be cymotrich or wavy, again a characteristic quite within the range of overall African or Nile valley physical and genetic diversity. A "pure" Nordic type of straight hair was thus not established for Rameses. Hence the notion of white Europeans or red-headed Caucasoids from other areas flowing into ancient Egypt to add hair variation, particularly the early centuries of the dynastic state is unlikely. Such flows may have occurred most heavily in the Greek and Roman era but say nothing about the thousands of years preceding. The presence of pheomelanin conditions or other genetic combinations also explains how the different hair used in Egyptian wigs could vary in color, aside from environmental oxidation, bleaching and dyeing.

Red hair is rare worldwide, and history shows little evidence of Northern Europeans or "Nordics" sweeping into Egypt to give the natives a bit of hair coloring or variation.
Most red hair is found in northern and western Europe, especially in the British Isles, and even then it appears in minor frequencies in Europe- some 4% of the population. It is unlikely such populations had any major contact or influence in the ancient Nile Valley. As noted above, red hair is comparatively rare in the world’s populations and pheomelanin conditions are found in dark-haired populations, and thus is well within the range of variation from the Sahara, East Africa and the Nile valley. “White Aryan” theories of Egypt are seen in the works of HFK Gunther (1927), Archibald Sayce (1925) and Raymond Dart (1939), and still find traction on a number of 'Aryan', neo-nazi and "race" websites and blogs which purport to show a "white Nordic Egypt" using Rameses' "red" hair as an example. Today's scientific research however, has debunked these dubious views, showing that red hair, while not common world wide, is a well known variant within human populations, even those with dark hair.

Straight or curly hair is also routine among sub-Saharans like Somalians, who are firmly part of the East African populations. As regards Somalians for example, Somali DNA overwhelmingly links much more heavily with other Africans including Kenyans & Ethiopians (85%), than with Europeans & Middle Easterners. (15%) On Y-chromosome markers (E3b1), Somalis (77%) and other African populations dwarf small European (5.1%) or Middle Eastern (6.3%) frequencies. “The data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population..” (Sanchez et al., High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages.. in Somali males (2005)


 -

As one mainstream researcher notes about the dubious value of "racial" hair analysis:

"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories. Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable".
--Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2

Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
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^^don't bother with this irrelevant to the topic spam
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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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^^Whatsa matta? Getting cold feet? Can't defend
your BS "theory"? I don't know what makes you so
dumb but it really works.

--------------------
Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began..

Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
^^Whatsa matta? Getting cold feet? Can't defend
your BS "theory"? I don't know what makes you so
dumb but it really works.

I don't read your stuff, when I see that much spam, I just skip it
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
xyyman
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^Now I am second guessing myself. Are you a man or woman?

BTW : the question should be, Why do Andaman Islanders, Papua New Guineans etc have kinky hair? LOL!!

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
xyyman
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As I said- Once you graduate from kindergarten ie crayons, coloring book and pictures etc – you will discover a whole new world out there. LOL!!

You will learn about genes, geography, archeology, anthropology, scientific journals etc.


Keep at it!!! LOL! AND drop C-Ass as a study partner. He is stifling your growth. He! He! He!

He(C-ass) is like a broken record. . .blah! blah! blah! Caucasoid! blah! blah! blah! Caucasoid! blah! blah! blah! Caucasoid! blah! blah! blah! Negroid!

Most posters are now ignoring him.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
BTW : the question should be, Why do Andaman Islanders, Papua New Guineans etc have kinky hair? LOL!!

They are the small exception to a very large pattern of straight haired people in Eurasia. Why is there such a pattern? Answer this first.
After that deal with exceptions, exceptions which do not disprove the larger rule. For example some Eskimos have somehwat dark skin. Why is this what happened to lower sunlight exposure and depigmenation? Answer, satisfactorily explained exception: they eat a lot of fish.
Similarly I asked AGÜEYBANÁ why don't many American Indians of the North who live inland and don't eat a lot of fish have dark skin?

quote:
Originally posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718):
Migrating from Asia, they reached the Americas before the gene for lightskin amongst northeast Asians became widespread, therefore the allele is not present amongst these people you question at high frequencies as that of those who stayed in Asia.

Source...

Genetic Evidence for the Convergent Evolution of Light Skin in Europeans and East Asians--
Heather L. Norton*,1, Rick A. Kittles

A similar explanation could be made about Andaman Islanders, Papua New Guineans. They reached these areas before the allele for straight hair.
They were probably a group of people that stayed strictly along the coast whereas other people settled at times slightly more Northward their hair straightening then migrated again later South (Austrailians) who look somewhat different from Andaman Islanders and Papua New Guineans.
We are not dealing with historical timeframes, prehistorical is many times longer.


The simple fact that demolishes all of this is that you do not find tribes of people with long straight laying hair like Asians have in Africa. The best that can be done is produce ancedotal examples of individual people who live in Africa of which the ancestry of these individuals unknown. The fact that Eurasians have 99% straight hair and Africans have 99% afro kinky hair cannot be explained by saying that diverse mutations are all completely random and hair type has nothing to do with climate.

No one knows the exact migrations routes that people took to far off places like Australia. There are many settling points in between Africa and Australia and there is no reason to believe that people migrating out of Africa made a continous very long journey until the got there, to a place they didn't even know existed until they got there.

I don't know why people like Papua New Guineans are being brought up, we don't even have to get into debates about the migration routes. The fact that Papua New Guineans have afro kinky hair only further attests to evidence that it is an adpatation to humid tropical environments.
If you found such people living up North that might be a problem.

another feather in the cap of the lioness

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Djehuti
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Lyinass f*ckup #6,001:

quote:
the lyinass posted elsewhere this factual statement:

the chart doesn't only describe wavy hair it also distinguishes wavy hair from straight hair.

And yet Australian aborigines have wavy to curly hair NOT straight.

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Let lyinass worms wriggle!

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Djehuti
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Lyinass f*ckup 6,002: straight haired are indigenous to areas geographically closer to Africa than people in India let alone Australian Aborigines.

Europeans:

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Keep wriggling.  -

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xyyman
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We covered the Eskimo thing already. Unlike what KIK and some others post, the Eskimos are dark not because of fish. I posted many times. The food did NOT make Europeans depigmented.

The Eskimos and similar groups are NEW migrants to the region. They are from the south hence DARK. See study posted on ESR. I believe it was the Holliday et al study comparing Europeans and Eskimo groups limb proportion. They(Eskimos) haven't been in the region long enough to be depigmented. Don't know why some here keep parroting that Jablonski nonsense. "the food made them white".

Mekova, Kittles et al have the collar on this one.

BUT!!! I applaud your effort posting stuff other than pictures. Now read some more and soon you will be worthy to stimulate my interest.


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
BTW : the question should be, Why do Andaman Islanders, Papua New Guineans etc have kinky hair? LOL!!

After that deal with exceptions, exceptions which do not disprove the larger rule. For example some Eskimos have somehwat dark skin. Why is this what happened to lower sunlight exposure and depigmenation? Answer, satisfactorily explained exception: they eat a lot of fish.


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xyyman
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But back on topic.. . . hair

You are looking at this all wrong like so many. The key is as I have said many times is. ..

1. WHEN and 2. WHERE.

Looking at percentages don't mean DICK. Frequency is simply a function of who has more babies.

WHERE - is kinky hair found.(indegenous populations). ie Environment

WHEN - did these populations get there ie how old is the population.

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xyyman
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Again unlike many of my brothas here I do not believe kinky hair was the original hair of first Modern Man. The evidence point to the first Africans having maybe curly straigtish hair.

WHY!!!!??? - Kinky hair seems to be a forest phenotype(not tropical). Did AMH evolve in the forest? No! Therefore there is no need for AMH to develop kinky hair.


I posted what AMH probably looked like when he left Africa.. . . based on the environment of the region.

Noticed I said "based upon the environment". I am using hard science to come up with an image of AMH. This is what others should do.

The problems is when we hear "Africans" many imagine the stereotypical "negroids".

Eg look at the Bantus vs Baka study. Both groups are 90,000yrs apart and genetically very different. But without the aid of genetics many of the old school scholars thought the Bantus were an off-shoot of the Baka(pygmy) groups. That is where dunce like C-Ass is missing the boat. Bantus and Pygmy is an example, AGAIN, of convergent evolution.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] We covered the Eskimo thing already. Unlike what KIK and some others post, the Eskimos are dark not because of fish. I posted many times. The food did NOT make Europeans depigmented.
The Eskimos and similar groups are NEW migrants to the region. They are from the south hence DARK.

Scientists with relevant disciplines agree that native people came to Alaska from North Asia and Siberia at the close of the last Ice Age.

quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:

See study posted on ESR. I believe it was the Holliday et al study comparing Europeans and Eskimo groups limb proportion. They(Eskimos) haven't been in the region long enough to be depigmented.

non sequiter, limb proportions and skin depigmenation are adaptations to different conditions

quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:

Don't know why some here keep parroting that Jablonski nonsense. "the food made them white".

there is reasonable speculation that skin depigmentation is a result from inland settlement in low UV areas due to vitamin D deprivation, possibly also due to more grain based agricultural diets. If you disagee what is your explantion for lighter skin in these areas?


quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] Again unlike many of my brothas here I do not believe kinky hair was the original hair of first Modern Man. The evidence point to the first Africans having maybe curly straigtish hair.

WHY!!!!??? - Kinky hair seems to be a forest phenotype(not tropical). Did AMH evolve in the forest? No!

in what type of environemnt, in your opinion did AMH develop?


.

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xyyman
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As I said you haven't read enough for me to get into a discussion on the subject of depigmentation. As usual you are either mis-reading or deliberately mis-representing what I posted.

There are two schools of thought on how humans became depigmented. I will leave at that for now.

But on the AMH question. The question to ask is...did AMH evolve in the forest?

As usual many don't ask the RIGHT question.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
As I said you haven't read enough for me to get into a discussion on the subject of depigmentation. As usual you are either mis-reading or deliberately mis-representing what I posted.

There are two schools of thought on how humans became depigmented. I will leave at that for now.

But on the AMH question. The question to ask is...did AMH evolve in the forest?

As usual many don't ask the RIGHT question.

you already said you believe that AMH did not evolve from the forest.
So in what type of environment, in your opinion, did AMH develop?"

or are you playing games?

(I will leave at that for now)

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asante-Korton
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the lioness thinks that aboriginals are not black just because of there hair lol what a joke
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by asante:
the lioness thinks that aboriginals are not black just because of there hair lol what a joke

If you mean by black "dark skinned" yes the aboriginals were dark skinned.
But if the data is correct showing some Nubians with long straight hair it could be possible that they were not exclusively abroginal to Africa in their ancestry.
I say this because tribes of people in North Africa today do not have long straight hair. You may find some anecdotal examples of individuals but not a whole tribe of dark skinned people with long straight hair. Individuals you do find often have bushy or wavy hair not the type you find in many Indians.
How could there be tribes of North African indigenous people with afro-kinky hair and in the same climate tribes of North African indigenous people with long straight hair?
That would suggest that hair type has no correlation to climate.
It doesn't seem believable becasue the world is not evenly sprinkled with people who have afro-kinky hair and straight hair. Afro kinky hair is much much less in Eurasia.
Khosians don't have straight hair or near narrow noses.

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
.


why do Australian Aborigenes have straight hair?

for the same reason Arabs, Iranians, Iraqis, Pakistanis and Indians have straight hair.

example:

 -

all of these regions are along the route between Africa and Australia and are much closer to Africa.

No need to bother pondering Australia, straight hair is predominant in regions much closer to Africa some with very dark skin.

_______________________________________________________

sidebar:
Also of Austrailians:

Caroline Wilkenson, a Forensic anthropologist,said (2004)

1) Australoids have the largest brow ridges

2) Europeans have the second largest brow ridges

3) Africans have the third largest brow ridges

4) East Asians are "absent brow ridges."

Austrailans have a combination of traits, some closer to Africans others closer to Eurasians, ex. hair, brow ridge,(limb ratios-I'm not sure about)

________________________________________________________

Theory: somewhere in the Middle East/South West Asia straight straight hair became predominant in most humans.
For instance closer to Africa en route to Australia includes countries such as Iraq, Iran and Pakistan.

People there have mainly straight hair. This may have been an adaptation to colder tempratures (esp nightime)

This is before people even got to India. Many Arabs already have dark skin (Arabia had a lot of intermingling between people coming frorm North and South, including Africans)

The adaptation of skin and hair are too separate things
and each may change at different rates of time.

if you have people like Iraqis/Iranians with straight hair and medium light skin and they were to go South, for example settle in Southern India, they could have straight hair but their skin would darken.
It is theorized that afro kinky hair is an adpatation to humidity.
South India is not as humid as a tropical rain forest.
So this is how you can have straight hair and dark skin.
People start out in a tropical hot humid environment, they leave and are transformed by the realtively colder/drier climate like Iraq or Iran but later go agian into a higher UV environment like South India (same latitude as Sudan) They retain the straight hair from before but acquire dark skin. The same would be true of Austrailians. As people pass through different climates they can retain some traits before reaching a final destination.

.

Australian aboriginal blood groups show links with Dravidian speakers so they probably got it through contact with them at some point in the last 5,000 years.
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
And yet Australian aborigines have wavy to curly hair NOT straight.

Several of those you posted are not Australoid, but have Tasmanid admixture.

Tasmanids are physically Negrito-Australoid, though there are no pure-blooded ones left. You still see though Negrito traits in some Australian Aborigines.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
]Australian aboriginal blood groups show links with Dravidian speakers so they probably got it through contact with them at some point in the last 5,000 years.

 -

^^^and where did this man get this type of hair?

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To answer the OP.

Australoids are wavy non-wooly haired because they have retained their Pleistocene phenotype and morphology.

Australoids look the closest thing to archaic homo - huge eye sockets and prominent ridges, large teeth, prognathism. The pigmentation however may have been different per region.

Although Caucasoids also have wavy hair, they don't have these other Pleistocene traits such as large teeth (they have the smallest) or prognathism (Caucasoids are orthognathic).

In some older scientific literature, Australoids are regarded as 'proto-Caucasoid' (Sonia Mary Cole, Reginald Ruggles Gates etc).

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the lioness,
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I'm revising the title of this thread:

Why do many dark skinned people from India have straight hair?

.

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asante-Korton
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by asante:
the lioness thinks that aboriginals are not black just because of there hair lol what a joke

If you mean by black "dark skinned" yes the aboriginals were dark skinned.
But if the data is correct showing some Nubians with long straight hair it could be possible that they were not exclusively abroginal to Africa in their ancestry.
I say this because tribes of people in North Africa today do not have long straight hair. You may find some anecdotal examples of individuals but not a whole tribe of dark skinned people with long straight hair. Individuals you do find often have bushy or wavy hair not the type you find in many Indians.
How could there be tribes of North African indigenous people with afro-kinky hair and in the same climate tribes of North African indigenous people with long straight hair?
That would suggest that hair type has no correlation to climate.
It doesn't seem believable becasue the world is not evenly sprinkled with people who have afro-kinky hair and straight hair. Afro kinky hair is much much less in Eurasia.
Khosians don't have straight hair or near narrow noses.

So your saying that black people are not real blacks unless they have curly hair and a wide nose? lol
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by asante:
So your saying that black people are not real blacks unless they have curly hair and a wide nose? lol

No, if "black" means anyone with dark skin.
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AGÜEYBANÁ II (Mind718)
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
The Eskimos and similar groups are NEW migrants to the region. They are from the south hence DARK. See study posted on ESR. I believe it was the Holliday et al study comparing Europeans and Eskimo groups limb proportion. They(Eskimos) haven't been in the region long enough to be depigmented. Don't know why some here keep parroting that Jablonski nonsense. "the food made them white".

Are you slow?

You're like a crackbaby with bad memory.

You repeat this same bullshit every time, and even though I come and smack you around some, you still come back months or however long and repeat the same BS like it never happened. lol

Back to the facts now, perhaps you can tell us why the Eskimos exhibit more cold adapted, in fact the most cold adapted body plans of all humans if they haven't been in the present area for enough time?

You never make sense as usual.

 -

quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Mekova, Kittles et al have the collar on this one.


Yea they do, Kittles speaks about it here...

http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicago/news.aspx?id=162068

^^Click link, watch 9 minute 20 second video from geneticist Rick Kittles.

After that come back and tell me Kittles agrees with you. Same thing I've been telling your dumbass for years now.


quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] There are two schools of thought on how humans became depigmented. I will leave at that for now.

Yea the right one wherein I presented many times, and the other albino theory which is pseudo-scientific. Which school of thought are you speaking of?
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718):
the other albino theory which is pseudo-scientific. Which school of thought are you speaking of?

Apart from the theory that you think is better, what aspect of the albino theory do you think is least plausible about it?
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AGÜEYBANÁ II (Mind718)
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Firstly, what I think is from established scientific facts...the rest you can figure out on your own I'm not gonna help you out. Put it this way everything about the numerous albino theory promoters is implausible. If you see something plausible let me know. I already refuted all their points numerous times, that's why Mike has changed the albino theory which pre-dates him now into a derivation from Dravidian albinos. Check the archives.
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Brada-Anansi
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 -
^^^and where did this man get this type of hair?

From his daddy?? [Roll Eyes]
I must say this for ya Lioness ya sure lov your Indians.. [Big Grin]

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AGÜEYBANÁ II (Mind718)
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^^Lol she sure does, perhaps she really is Indian.
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xyyman
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^ sigh!!!. . . Everytime I get out you drag me back in.

to be continued. . . .

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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AGÜEYBANÁ II (Mind718)
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^^You fool, if you wanted out you shouldn't have mentioned me, damn you are slow aren't ya?
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quote:
Originally posted by asante:
So your saying that black people are not real blacks unless they have curly hair and a wide nose? lol [/QB]

Negroids (Blacks) have wooly hair and wide/flat noses.

Afronuts however have a different racial classification regarding who Black people are and they base it solely on dark pigmentation. The obvious problem with doing this is that you end up clusting non-Negroid races as Negroid (Black). The main reason afronuts do this is because they self-hate Negroid features such as wooly hair and wide noses so it comforts them when they extend their race to include dark skinned non-negroid races who have straighter hair and thin noses.

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MissJennifer
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quote:
Originally posted by cassiterides:
quote:
Originally posted by asante:
So your saying that black people are not real blacks unless they have curly hair and a wide nose? lol

Negroids (Blacks) have wooly hair and wide/flat noses.

Afronuts however have a different racial classification regarding who Black people are and they base it solely on dark pigmentation. The obvious problem with doing this is that you end up clusting non-Negroid races as Negroid (Black). The main reason afronuts do this is because they self-hate Negroid features such as wooly hair and wide noses so it comforts them when they extend their race to include dark skinned non-negroid races who have straighter hair and thin noses. [/QB]

I happen to agree with this. Online, I notice a lot of Black poeple are very hypersenstive when you classify black as being darkskin, wide noses, and kinky hair; they get very upset and try to prove lighterskin, straight hair, and narrow features as being just as black, when the vast majority of people who have those features are of mixed race. I have yet to see a tribe in Africa of black people who have these features with no mixing from other races involved.
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AGÜEYBANÁ II (Mind718)
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quote:
Originally posted by MissJennifer:
quote:
Originally posted by cassiterides:
quote:
Originally posted by asante:
So your saying that black people are not real blacks unless they have curly hair and a wide nose? lol

Negroids (Blacks) have wooly hair and wide/flat noses.

Afronuts however have a different racial classification regarding who Black people are and they base it solely on dark pigmentation. The obvious problem with doing this is that you end up clusting non-Negroid races as Negroid (Black). The main reason afronuts do this is because they self-hate Negroid features such as wooly hair and wide noses so it comforts them when they extend their race to include dark skinned non-negroid races who have straighter hair and thin noses.

I happen to agree with this. Online, I notice a lot of Black poeple are very hypersenstive when you classify black as being darkskin, wide noses, and kinky hair; [/QB]
It's not so much as noting one phenotype amongst Africans as much as it's trying to hold all Africans throughout Africa to this specific phenotype and only this phenotype which in turn is stereotyping Africans with a "true Negroid" parameter when in actuality it's well known amongst the bio-anthropological community that in Africa, a vast continent where modern humans have lived for 200ky and have accumulated so much phenotypic and genetic diversity there are many different phenotypes that are all indigenous to Africa the Negroid phenotype is just one of many.

Note the following for example...

quote:
Originally posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718):
The Cambridge researchers studied genetic diversity of human populations around the world and measurements of over 6,000 skulls from across the globe in academic collections. Their research knocks down one of the last arguments in favour of multiple origins. The new findings show that a loss in genetic diversity the further a population is from Africa is mirrored by a loss in variation in **physical attributes**.

Lead researcher, Dr Andrea Manica from the University's Department of Zoology, explained: "The origin of anatomically modern humans has been the focus of much heated debate. Our genetic research shows the further modern humans have migrated from Africa the more genetic diversity has been lost within a population.

"However, some have used skull data to argue that modern humans originated in multiple spots around the world. We have combined our genetic data with new measurements of a large sample of skulls to show definitively that modern humans originated from a single area in Sub-saharan Africa."

The research team found that genetic diversity decreased in populations the further away from Africa they were - a result of 'bottlenecks' or events that temporarily reduced populations during human migration.

They then studied an exceptionally large sample of human skulls. Taking a set of measurements across all the skulls the team showed that not only was variation highest amongst the sample from south eastern Africa but that it did decrease at the same rate as the genetic data the further the skull was away from Africa.




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quote:
Originally posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718):
quote:
Originally posted by MissJennifer:
quote:
Originally posted by cassiterides:
quote:
Originally posted by asante:
So your saying that black people are not real blacks unless they have curly hair and a wide nose? lol

Negroids (Blacks) have wooly hair and wide/flat noses.

Afronuts however have a different racial classification regarding who Black people are and they base it solely on dark pigmentation. The obvious problem with doing this is that you end up clusting non-Negroid races as Negroid (Black). The main reason afronuts do this is because they self-hate Negroid features such as wooly hair and wide noses so it comforts them when they extend their race to include dark skinned non-negroid races who have straighter hair and thin noses.

I happen to agree with this. Online, I notice a lot of Black poeple are very hypersenstive when you classify black as being darkskin, wide noses, and kinky hair;

It's not so much as noting one phenotype amongst Africans as much as it's trying to hold all Africans throughout Africa to this specific phenotype and only this phenotype which in turn is stereotyping Africans with a "true Negroid" parameter when in actuality it's well known amongst the bio-anthropological community that in Africa, a vast continent where modern humans have lived for 200ky and have accumulated so much phenotypic and genetic diversity there are many different phenotypes that are all indigenous to Africa the Negroid phenotype is just one of many.

Note the following for example...

quote:
Originally posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718):
The Cambridge researchers studied genetic diversity of human populations around the world and measurements of over 6,000 skulls from across the globe in academic collections. Their research knocks down one of the last arguments in favour of multiple origins. The new findings show that a loss in genetic diversity the further a population is from Africa is mirrored by a loss in variation in **physical attributes**.

Lead researcher, Dr Andrea Manica from the University's Department of Zoology, explained: "The origin of anatomically modern humans has been the focus of much heated debate. Our genetic research shows the further modern humans have migrated from Africa the more genetic diversity has been lost within a population.

"However, some have used skull data to argue that modern humans originated in multiple spots around the world. We have combined our genetic data with new measurements of a large sample of skulls to show definitively that modern humans originated from a single area in Sub-saharan Africa."

The research team found that genetic diversity decreased in populations the further away from Africa they were - a result of 'bottlenecks' or events that temporarily reduced populations during human migration.

They then studied an exceptionally large sample of human skulls. Taking a set of measurements across all the skulls the team showed that not only was variation highest amongst the sample from south eastern Africa but that it did decrease at the same rate as the genetic data the further the skull was away from Africa.



[/QB]
The other phenotypes aren't as common though. you all make it seem as if its the majority when its not. the negroid phenotype is the most common one. I haven't see any black africans who have narrow features and fine wavy hair that are not mixed.
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quote:
Originally posted by MissJennifer:
The other phenotypes aren't as common though. you all make it seem as if its the majority when its not. the negroid phenotype is the most common one. I haven't see any black africans who have narrow features and fine wavy hair that are not mixed.

I applaud you for your honesty since you claimed to be black yourself. Problem is though most other blacks on this forum are self-haters who hate the typical Negroid features such as wooly hair and wide noses that through insecurity they project this fantasy that Negroes are naturally straight haired etc.

The user bettyboo is the worst self-hater i have yet encountered. They claim blacks have natural straight blonde hair. Never though can they show a photo. Instead you get picture spams of Australian Aborigine children (a minority who are blonde), but Australoids are not Negroids.

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quote:
Originally posted by cassiterides:
quote:
Originally posted by MissJennifer:
The other phenotypes aren't as common though. you all make it seem as if its the majority when its not. the negroid phenotype is the most common one. I haven't see any black africans who have narrow features and fine wavy hair that are not mixed.

I applaud you for your honesty since you claimed to be black yourself. Problem is though most other blacks on this forum are self-haters who hate the typical Negroid features such as wooly hair and wide noses that through insecurity they project this fantasy that Negroes are naturally straight haired etc.

The user bettyboo is the worst self-hater i have yet encountered. They claim blacks have natural straight blonde hair. Never though can they show a photo. Instead you get picture spams of Australian Aborigine children (a minority who are blonde), but Australoids are not Negroids.

I am a Black American and I notice this mindset on many African Americans forums. It irritates me so I don't visit them very much.



IRL, black poeple tend to be very honest about what is black; if you ask the average Black American what black looks like to you, they will explain the Negroid phenotype; it is the most common one.

Online black people act as if we cannot define what black is but every other race has no problem with doing so but us..silly questions like "what is black" "there is no black look" come on get the hell out of here. if we didn't know what black looked like then there would be no racism

However, online, black poeple live in a fantasy world where they try to claim they have more mixed heritage than they do, and their features are more mixed than what they are.

I live in the midwest where many of the black people like me, still look like our ancestors, we have kinky hair, dark brown skin, flat noses/some have narrow noses, full lips/thin/medium etc. Our look is not that much different from our ancestors. There are some Black Americans who are mixed looking, and lightskin in the bunch, but they are not the vast majority and those features are not natural to our race.

I feel as though many black poeple online try to act like people who look like me don't exist or are not the majority and it is very hurtful to read.

Look at the clips of Hurricane Katrina, did you see all of those very darkskin to brownskin Black poeple who still look like thier ancestors?? Yes, you did. I didn't see a whole lot of mixed looking, racially ambiguous looking black poeple like so many like to claim online.

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AGÜEYBANÁ II (Mind718)
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quote:
Originally posted by MissJennifer:
The other phenotypes aren't as common though.

So you mean to tell me you've traversed the whole of Africa seen all people and places, if not what are you going by to note this?

Anyway, doesn't matter what you think is common or not, they exist and that's the point here.

At one time there was this thing called scientific racism which would stereotype Africans to be the least diverse despite the fact that Africa is the homeplace of anatomically modern humans.

This is what you're adhering to.

quote:
Originally posted by MissJennifer:
you all make it seem as if its the majority when its not.

I've never stated anything was the majority instead it's clearly noted that there's not the single phenotype throughout all of Africa.

quote:
Originally posted by MissJennifer:
the negroid phenotype is the most common one.

Accordong to whom Carelton Coon? lol

Certainly not according to mainstream bio-anthroplogy.

quote:
Originally posted by MissJennifer:
I haven't see any black africans who have narrow features and fine wavy hair that are not mixed.

Then you need to do some more research before you post, tell me in your words who are these Africans with narrow features and wavy hair that are mixed and how, evidence please...

Do you mean to tell me that magically some non Africans passed on genes only for nose and hair, but none for limb proportions which are noted amongst some to be more tropically adapted than many other African peoples and skin very dark in complexion? Doesn't sound logical now does it?

There's many different environmental conditions throughout Africa different environments breed different cranio-facial phenotypes.

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MissJennifer
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quote:
Originally posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718):
quote:
Originally posted by MissJennifer:
quote:
Originally posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718):
quote:
Originally posted by MissJennifer:
quote:
Originally posted by cassiterides:
quote:
Originally posted by asante:
So your saying that black people are not real blacks unless they have curly hair and a wide nose? lol

Negroids (Blacks) have wooly hair and wide/flat noses.

Afronuts however have a different racial classification regarding who Black people are and they base it solely on dark pigmentation. The obvious problem with doing this is that you end up clusting non-Negroid races as Negroid (Black). The main reason afronuts do this is because they self-hate Negroid features such as wooly hair and wide noses so it comforts them when they extend their race to include dark skinned non-negroid races who have straighter hair and thin noses.

I happen to agree with this. Online, I notice a lot of Black poeple are very hypersenstive when you classify black as being darkskin, wide noses, and kinky hair;

It's not so much as noting one phenotype amongst Africans as much as it's trying to hold all Africans throughout Africa to this specific phenotype and only this phenotype which in turn is stereotyping Africans with a "true Negroid" parameter when in actuality it's well known amongst the bio-anthropological community that in Africa, a vast continent where modern humans have lived for 200ky and have accumulated so much phenotypic and genetic diversity there are many different phenotypes that are all indigenous to Africa the Negroid phenotype is just one of many.

Note the following for example...

quote:
Originally posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718):
The Cambridge researchers studied genetic diversity of human populations around the world and measurements of over 6,000 skulls from across the globe in academic collections. Their research knocks down one of the last arguments in favour of multiple origins. The new findings show that a loss in genetic diversity the further a population is from Africa is mirrored by a loss in variation in **physical attributes**.

Lead researcher, Dr Andrea Manica from the University's Department of Zoology, explained: "The origin of anatomically modern humans has been the focus of much heated debate. Our genetic research shows the further modern humans have migrated from Africa the more genetic diversity has been lost within a population.

"However, some have used skull data to argue that modern humans originated in multiple spots around the world. We have combined our genetic data with new measurements of a large sample of skulls to show definitively that modern humans originated from a single area in Sub-saharan Africa."

The research team found that genetic diversity decreased in populations the further away from Africa they were - a result of 'bottlenecks' or events that temporarily reduced populations during human migration.

They then studied an exceptionally large sample of human skulls. Taking a set of measurements across all the skulls the team showed that not only was variation highest amongst the sample from south eastern Africa but that it did decrease at the same rate as the genetic data the further the skull was away from Africa.




The other phenotypes aren't as common though.
So you mean to tell me you've traversed the whole of Africa seen all people and places, if not what are you going by to note this?

quote:
Originally posted by MissJennifer:
you all make it seem as if its the majority when its not.

I've never stated anything was the majority instead it's clearly noted that there's not the single phenotype throughout all of Africa.

quote:
Originally posted by MissJennifer:
the negroid phenotype is the most common one.

Accordong to whom Carelton Coon? lol

Certainly not according to mainstream bio-anthroplogy.

quote:
Originally posted by MissJennifer:
I haven't see any black africans who have narrow features and fine wavy hair that are not mixed.

Then you need to do some more research before you post, tell me in your words who are these Africans with narrow features and wavy hair that are mixed and how, evidence please... [/QB]
You cannot claim that you have tranversed the entire continent to conclude that the negroid phenotype is NOT the most common one.

But anyone with common sense and eyes can see that it IS the most common phenotype. Nobody needs some silly study done by anthropologists to know that the vast majority of black people with very little to NO mixing have kinky hair.

Why are we trying to claim a certain look that is not even dominant in our race anyway??? Are you trying to say those with the common Negroid phenotype are inferior and ugly? Do you realize how you are offending ME and poeple in my family who look like this??

I am tired of African Americans online trying to argue that white is right, trying so hard to argue a certain phenotype that is not dominant or natural to our race. There is no tribe in Africa where the black poeple have lightskin, narrow features, and fine hair with no mixing. There are none and no one can name a tribe or show any proof that there is.

I feel like you all are just self hating, you are ashamed to have the Negroid phenotype represent us because you have a deeply embedded inferiority complex. Instead you want to prove to non black races that our poeple can have straight hair, narrow noses and lightskin just like they do to feel better about yourselves. I see this same mentality on every forum when African Americans are discussing race; they start showing photos of colored people with mixed features and trying to pass them off as 'black' or saying they are just as 'black' as the pure west africans when it's a complete lie.

quote:
Then you need to do some more research before you post, tell me in your words who are these Africans with narrow features and wavy hair that are mixed and how, evidence please...

Do you mean to tell me that magically some non Africans passed on genes only for nose and hair, but none for limb proportions which are noted amongst some to be more tropically adapted than many other African peoples and skin very dark in complexion? Doesn't sound logical now does it?

There's many different environmental conditions throughout Africa different environments breed different cranio-facial phenotypes.

That look is NOT dominant though (especially w/o mixing). It represents a very small percentage of the black racial phenotype.

There are still MANY Ethiopians who have broad facial features; I was under the impression that they all had narrow features and fine hair but many do not. The narrow featured Ethiopians get noticed more obviously because of White supremacy but there are a lot who look like West Africans.

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AGÜEYBANÁ II (Mind718)
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quote:
Originally posted by MissJennifer:
You cannot claim that you have tranversed the entire continent to conclude that the negroid phenotype is NOT the most common one.

I never said I have, bu you made a bold enough statement as if you have.

There are many anthropologists who have though, and they have something totally different to say than what you "think" with your limited knowledge on the subject.

quote:
Originally posted by MissJennifer:
But anyone with common sense and eyes can see that it IS the most common phenotype.

Like I said, have you traversed the whole of Africa to come to this conclusion?

Btw, common doesn't mean the only, like I said, it's not a battle of what's more common or not, instead it's the point of its NOT THE ONLY PHENOTYPE , get that through your head please.

quote:
Originally posted by MissJennifer:
Nobody needs some silly study done by anthropologists to know that the vast majority of black people with very little to NO mixing have kinky hair.

Ok, and nobody needs a layperson such as yourself to know that the numerous anthropological studies that have analyzed world populations saying the same for those Africans who do not into your box have little or no mixing and holds more weight than your emotional replies with no counter evidence.

You choose to ignore it if you want, but you're feeding right into the outdated stereotype from old European racist scholars saying that Africans are the least diverse people in this world despite the fact that its been shown (to you) Africa is the home place of modern humans and that they are most genetically and phenotypically diverse in Africa.

quote:
Originally posted by MissJennifer:
Why are we trying to claim a certain look that is not even dominant in our race anyway???

Nobody is trying to claim a certain look besides yourself, lol stop projecting.

Besides Africa is too big of a continent with a vast amount of people that don't fit into your little box.

quote:
Originally posted by MissJennifer:
Are you trying to say those with the common Negroid phenotype are inferior and ugly? Do you realize how you are offending ME and poeple in my family who look like this??

Umm, how?

You're the one making this interpretation on your own because you don't understand what's being discussed.

When in fact as told to you yes there are Africans who fit a Negroid phenotype but there also others that don't it's not a mater of which one is better or not or makes one more African or not, it's the point that Africans are more diverse than you're are trying to pigeonhole.

quote:
Originally posted by MissJennifer:
I am tired of African Americans online trying to argue that white is right, trying so hard to argue a certain phenotype that is not dominant or natural to our race.

Who the hell says whie is right? You keep repeating the same things it's nobodies fault but your own that you don't understand what's discussed here, nobody is denying Africans don't look this way, but hello, they don't all fit a single phenotype throughout the whole of Africa. Ad nauseum.
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the lioness,
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Miss Jennifer what is at stake here is ancient Egypt. Many black people feel ancient Egypt is the height of African Civilization and are proud to be associated with it.
They insist it was 99% indigenous African and that blacks are capabale of the hightest achievements without having to have Middle Eastern or Eureapan people helping us. If you look at the ancient Egyptians many had narrow features, possibly straight hair and some of the women in particular can tend toward lighter skin.
As a person of African descent I would like to believe that they wer 99% African this but I see other possibilities, particularly in the ways some of the dynastic Phaoraohs are depicted.
Straight hair also raises issues.

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AGÜEYBANÁ II (Mind718)
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^Like I asked Jen;

Do you mean to tell me that magically some non Africans passed on genes only for nose and hair, but none for limb proportions?

Which are noted amongst Ancient Egyptians to be more tropically adapted than many other African peoples and skin dark in complexion? Doesn't sound logical now does it?

You choose to ignore what the professionals have to say on the subject and instead invoke your own feelings into the science, sorry but that's just not how it works. Get over it already.

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^ Note how AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718) when debating MissJennifer about Negroids (Blacks) changes the terminology to 'Africans'.

This is why, here is his trick:

Here are some native African Kayble Berbers -

 -

Quite evidently these Kabyles are not Black but Caucasoid but AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718) will cluster them as 'African' alongside the Negroids who look like this:

 -

The above are evidently two completely seperate races. But AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718) considers them to all be indigenous 'african' and the same. [Roll Eyes]

MissJennifer has it spot on about self-hatred. AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718) is clustering Caucasoids as African with Negroids into the same race/people because he hates his own Negroid features.

There is no single african race.

There are seperate races that have inhabited africa for thousands of years - Capoids (Bushmen), Caucasoids and Negroids.

All are genetically and phenotypically distinct.

Afronutters though think they are all one single african group.

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AGÜEYBANÁ II (Mind718)
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^^When the hell have you ever seen me state that those individuals you posted as Kabyle Berbers would be classified as African? Many coastal north Africans are predominately Eurasian on their mtDNA and also carry the derived European SLC24A5 allele, which makes those people not purely indigenous African fool.

You already admitted that you adhere to Coon and Seligmen even though you know they're outdated, and refuse to step into the modern era of reality. You're a quack.

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You repeatedly claim Africans have lighter skin, straighter hair and thin noses. That is what the North African Berbers have because they are Caucasoid.

Can you then show a photo of a light skinned, straight haired, thin nosed 'indigenous african' which doesn't have Caucasoid ancestry?

What are these people meant to then look like? Where are they?

I expect again you will just picture spam East Africans (who have Caucasoid genes).

As MissJennifer said, you need to get out of fantasy land and embrace some reality.

Black people don't have the white features such as straighter hair you crave. You are the only one who shows your emotions here. Instead just look in the mirror and accept what your own racial traits are.

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AGÜEYBANÁ II (Mind718)
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quote:
Originally posted by cassiterides:
You repeatedly claim Africans have lighter skin, straighter hair and thin noses. That is what the North African Berbers have because they are Caucasoid.

Again, where have I ever claimed lightskin such as those obviously mixed coastal north Africans to be indigenous? Nowhere.

I know individuals like those possess high levels of Eurasian gene flow, not only maternally but the SLC24A5 derived allele is present as well.

A thinner nose, lips and straighter hair has already been shown and proven to you a million times over.

 -


 -


 -


 -



 -

 -

 -

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quote:
Originally posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718):
You already admitted that you adhere to Coon and Seligmen even though you know they're outdated, and refuse to step into the modern era of reality. You're a quack.

The modern era of reality is where Negroid, Caucasoid and Mongoloid are still scientifically valid within forensic science, racial profiling (FBI, Police etc) and some physical anthropologists.

The following work was published in 2004.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race:_The_Reality_of_Human_Difference

 -

Race denialists like yourself are the real quacks and cranks.

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So what's taking you so long to answer the following?

quote:
Originally posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718):
^^So can one of those southwest Asian or Indian carcassoids move into Europe and intermix with you white carcassoid folk up north? Would it do well with bone marrow transplants? lol

I'd love to hear this one. [/QB]


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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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Originally posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718):
So can one of those southwest Asian or Indian carcassoids move into Europe and intermix with you white carcassoid folk up north? Would it do well with bone marrow transplants? lol

I'd love to hear this one.


^^lol... lets see what other bogus claims he can
come up with now...

 -

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