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Author Topic: did black people evolve into "white people" in Africa?
the lioness,
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I'm rehashing my Mozabite Berber post with a more direct thread title question because i'm still bugging over this concept and that I heard S.O.Y. Keita suggesting that this was possible in a video.
He said that straight hair and light skin could have evolved within Africa.
You can find a some examples of black Africans with straight hair and you can find some Africans with lighter skin than other. When you have both of these things going on at the same time, not just one or two people with straight hair but a whole tribe, the the skin gets to a certain level of lightness and the features are of a certain proportion the people are considered "non black" "Asian" or "white".

The idea that white people came from the Caucus mountains is dubious.

The concept of a Caucasian race or Varietas Caucasia was developed around 1800 by Johann Friedrich Blumenbach, a German scientist and classical anthropologist. Blumenbach wrote:

"Caucasian variety - I have taken the name of this variety from Mount Caucasus, both because its neighborhood, and especially its southern slope, produces the most beautiful race of men, I mean the Georgian; and because all physiological reasons converge to this, that in that region, if anywhere, it seems we ought with the greatest probability to place the autochthones (birth place) of mankind.

So right there he is selecting the Caucus region partially due to the people looking beautiful to him and he also adds that he thinks it was the birthplace of mankind.This sheds a lot of doubt on his credibility and the whole Caucus mountain theory.

What if the origin of white people is that they were indigenous to Africa. For example, look at how the Egyptians portrayed Asiatics compared to how they portrayed Libyans. You would think that the Asiatics would be lighter instead it's the Libyans. That contributes to this idea.





_______________________________________

study:

The Genetic Structure and History of Africans and African Americans

Doctoris Scientia's analysis follows


Originally published in Science Express on 30 April 2009
Science 22 May 2009:
Vol. 324. no. 5930, pp. 1035 - 1044


Sarah A. Tishkoff,1,2,* Floyd A. Reed,1,{dagger},{ddagger} Françoise R. Friedlaender,3,{ddagger} Christopher Ehret,4 Alessia Ranciaro,1,2,5,§ Alain Froment,6,§ Jibril B. Hirbo,1,2 Agnes A. Awomoyi,1,|| Jean-Marie Bodo,7 Ogobara Doumbo,8 Muntaser Ibrahim,9 Abdalla T. Juma,9 Maritha J. Kotze,10 Godfrey Lema,11 Jason H. Moore,12 Holly Mortensen,1,¶ Thomas B. Nyambo,11 Sabah A. Omar,13 Kweli Powell,1,# Gideon S. Pretorius,14 Michael W. Smith,15 Mahamadou A. Thera,8 Charles Wambebe,16 James L. Weber,17 Scott M. Williams

quote:
Originally posted by Doctoris Scientia:
(including pictures below, linked originally)
The Mozambite, unlike what some posters have stated, are a very good repersentation for the general North African population, being predomiantely African with a significant Eursian component, clustering between the two extremes.lineages found among Europeans and Southwest Asians due to AFRICAN gene-flow in particular Neolithic gene-flow, which are therefor shared between these non-Africans and some Africans. The other Africans who possessed large amounts of "blue" were the Dogon and the Mozabite. The Dogon's case is identical to that of the Beja, while the "blue" found among the Mozabite is likely that of both direct European admixture and them carrying "ancestral" lineages. In the Beja "direct non-African" admixture is less than 5%, even lower among the Dogon.


In regards to colour? no, but they do indicate the general amount of both blue's found in Africa. With the African ancestral "Saharan/Dogon" being the most prominent, even among the light skin, "typical" Northern Saharan/Coastal North African Mozabite. The Mozabite according to the study are predominantly African. Even if you discarded blue being both ancestral African and "European"... the Mozabite would have had been typical "mulattos" genetically, i.e. 49% being non-"Saharan/Dogon" African. Out of the 51% labeled as "Saharan/Dogon"... most of it's African. Mozabite are therefore about 80% African.
Northern Algerian Mozabite are therefore 80% African and 20% Eurasian.

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quote:
Originally posted by Doctoris Scientia:

It's highly likely that the Northern Saharan/Coastal North African Berbers "bred" themselves due to sexual preferences, therefore explaining their unique physical appearance. Extensive or continous non-African admixture is not necessary for this to happen. If such features are perferred, such features would dominate.


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xyyman
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Meet me at ESR . . . to discuss. Wink! wink!
But seriously this is not the forum, however an interesting topic.

Should be taken to ESR where it will be properly moderated. I remember the Sage mentioning that he "would" post data/info showing that the white skin was in Africa since pre-history. Or something like that. He never did?

I have some studies that have me on the fence.

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the lioness,
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feel free to copy/paste it over there
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iateyourheadphones
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theirs a possiblity Ethiopians are the first Caucasians. they are the only groups who never went through the mutation posses. its an idea, but most say its due to mixture from other Caucasian groups (modern day arabs)

some pictures of ethiopians
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their skin tone is darker but their features are Caucasoid.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=006923

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Jacki Lopushonsky
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Skin color in populations can drift from dark to lighter shades AND from light to dark in only 100 generations(2000-2500 yrs)according to Nina Jablonski.
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kenndo
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quote:
Originally posted by iateyourheadphones:
theirs a possiblity Ethiopians are the first Caucasians. they are the only groups who never went through the mutation posses. its an idea, but most say its due to mixture from other Caucasian groups (modern day arabs)

some pictures of ethiopians
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their skin tone is darker but their features are Caucasoid.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=006923

Ethiopians or most of them are not Caucasoid.the above pics are not Caucasians.

they are a Africoid people.

quote-

Critics of race categorization also dispute the notion of Caucasoid admixture in the case of the Wolof and other African peoples, holding that the differences found among the Africoid peoples are simply localized variations that do not rely on any mixture from an assortment of discrete races. Such concepts of admixture they hold, too often rely on stereotypical definitions of a "true negro" type, allowing reclassification of peoples like Somalis, Ethiopians, , etc to a "Caucasoid" grouping or mixed grouping with Caucasoids, sometimes using different labels like "Mediterranean" or "Middle Eastern." Narrow naso-facial features for example are found among the oldest populations of East Africa, independently of any admixture with Caucasoid or Southwest Asiatic peoples.


Users of the term point to Ethiopians and Eritreans, Somalis who exhibit phenotypical traits such as orthognathism, non-kinky hair texture, and keen facial features[ seen by some as being exclusive to Caucasoid peoples. They contend such variations are indigenous to these groups and cannot be attributed to invasions from outside Caucasoid peoples as suggested under the Dynastic Race Theory and in more recent biological studies. Such phenotypical variations, they argue, often occur within nuclear family groups and are inherent to Africoid peoples, much as there are broad variations in physical stature and body proportions between the Pygmies of the Congo, who generally reach a height of 4.5 feet (1.4 m), and of the Dinka or Tutsi of Rwanda, whose average height is 6.5 feet (2.0 m) and who are described as "gracile", or gracefully slender. Similarly, they continue, African peoples commonly considered "Negroid" such as the Senegalese also may lack prognathism.


Some critics suggest that the "elongated" physique common to many Ethiopians, Eritreans and Somalis is strictly an adaptive response to living in a tropical environment and not a sign of shared racial ancestry with neighboring black groups as has been proposed:


The elongation of the distal segments of the limbs is also clearly related to the dissipation of metabolically generated heat. Because heat stress and latitude are clearly related, one would expect to find a correlation between the two sets of traits that are associated with adaptation to survival in areas of great ambient temperature, namely, skin color and limb proportions. This is clearly the case in such areas as Equatorial Africa, the tropical portions of South Asia, and northern Australia, although there is little covariation with other sets of inherited traits. In this regard it is interesting to note that the limb proportions of the Predynastic Naqada in Upper Egypt are reported to be "super-Negroid", meaning that the distal segments are elongated in the fashion of tropical Africans. It would be just as accurate to call them "super-Veddoid" or "super-Carpentarian" because skin color intensification and distal limb elongation are apparent wherever people have been long-term residents of the tropics. The term "super-tropical" would be better, as it implies the results of selection associated with a given latitude rather than the more "racially loaded" term "Negroid.


Additionally, some argue that certain African peoples exhibit physical characteristics beyond the scope of the classic Negroid phenotype, including narrow nasal indices in the case of Ethiopians, Eritreans and Somalis, as well as a minority of the often very dark-skinned peoples of the Nile region. They also cite the epicanthic eyefolds evident in the Khoisan of southern Africa.


Many anthropologists have observed that Caucasoid is applied inconsistently and challenge as Eurocentric and inappropriate the use of a term which contains a European geographic referent to refer to people who are indigenous to the African continent. Further, they argue that the term is misleading and that, as a result, it erroneously has been conflated by some to mean non-Black or even White — despite the fact that so-called Caucasoid Africans range from brown to mahogany to extremely dark in skin tone. This is also the case with some "Caucasoid" peoples of the Indian subcontinent, i.e., the Dravidians, whom some Afrocentrists regard as Africoid, as well.


Many contend that affixing the Caucasoid label to African peoples runs counter to phenotypical naming conventions, which historically have associated peoples with their geographic points of origin. They, therefore, have been the chief proponents and users of the term Africoid as what they consider to be a more accurate, inclusive and all-encompassing term for indigenous, dark-skinned peoples of the African continent and the African diaspora.


Critics of race categorization also dispute the notion of Caucasoid admixture in the case of the Wolof and other African peoples, holding that the differences found among the Africoid peoples are simply localized variations that do not rely on any mixture from an assortment of discrete races. Such concepts of admixture they hold, too often rely on stereotypical definitions of a "true negro" type, allowing reclassification of peoples like Somalis, Ethiopians, etc to a "Caucasoid" grouping or mixed grouping with Caucasoids, sometimes using different labels like "Mediterranean" or "Middle Eastern." Narrow naso-facial features for example are found among the oldest populations of East Africa, independently of any admixture with Caucasoid or Southwest Asiatic peoples.

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Mike111
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the lioness - Blocked at every turn by fact an science. What's a girl to do?
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iateyourheadphones
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@kenndo

so your saying even thogh they have 40% western asian ancestory, their features are a result of diversity?

deffinition of caucasion (notice the "horn of Africa")

The term Caucasian race (also Caucasoid, Europid, or Europoid[1]) has been used to denote the general physical type of some or all of the indigenous populations of Europe, North Africa, the Horn of Africa, West Asia, Central Asia, and South Asia.[2]

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xyyman
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If you are not another troll.

You do realize this is a defunct, illogical and pre-historic term that is not even used by well renowned scientist anymore.

MODERN scientist use the term populations. eg hg-R1b is an European population marker(incidently whose immediate ancestors are Black Africans found in the Cameroon) and most of the so called "Ethiopians" carry E* which is a "recent" African marker. vis-a-vis hg-A and Hg-B etc.

So. . . . .are you serious of just another JJ Walker.


Stop looking at pictures and coming to conclusions. . .seriouly


GAD!!! no wonder this site is dead. Mostly trailer trash and high school drop outs post here. They can't even give me a erection!!!

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MelaninKing
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Considering the Pro/Con trade-offs with white skin, especially in Africa. There can be no doubt the mutation can only be best described for what it truly is. a digression rather than an "evolve".
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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
If you are not another troll.

You do realize this is a defunct, illogical and pre-historic term that is not even used by well renowned scientist anymore.

MODERN scientist use the term populations. eg hg-R1b is an European population marker(incidently whose immediate ancestors are Black Africans found in the Cameroon) and most of the so called "Ethiopians" carry E* which is a "recent" African marker. vis-a-vis hg-A and Hg-B etc.

So. . . . .are you serious of just another JJ Walker.


Stop looking at pictures and coming to conclusions. . .seriouly


GAD!!! no wonder this site is dead. Mostly trailer trash and high school drop outs post here. They can't even give me a erection!!!

Don't forget the few writing from prison. [Smile]
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Djehuti
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This topic was beaten to the ground many times before. To answer the dumb lioness's question, NO, whites did not evolve in Africa. The simple reason why is that Africa's climate is tropical to subtropical and white skin is maladaptive to such climates meaning it is BAD. White skin didn't evolve until much later and in temperate to polar climates that received very little sunlight or UV rays.

The ONLY reason white Berbers exist in North Africa is due to recent migrations from Europe plain and simple. This can be seen from the fact that these white Berbers share maternal ancestry with Europeans particularly those in the Iberian Peninsula (Spain & Portugal). Even though subtropical climate of the Atlas and northern most Africa may not receive as much UV rays as Sub-Sahara, that fair skin is still maladaptive can be seen in the fact that white Berbers have among the highest rates of skin cancer along with white South Africans who also live in the Subtropics in southern most Africa!

Therefore the existence of aboriginal whites of Africa is a LIE.

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Truthcentric
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
white Berbers have among the highest rates of skin cancer along with white South Africans who also live in the Subtropics in southern most Africa!

Does anyone know where I can find statistics on skin cancer rates in North Africa?
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Djehuti
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^ I only wish I wrote down the source for my claim. All I can tell you was that it was an anthropology book I read from my school library years ago which stated that white Berbers in particular the Kabyle have the highest rates of skin cancer in the world after white South Africans and white Australians. Australians are #1 even though they live well below the Tropic of Capricorn.
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xyyman
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MK?
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Truthcentric
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Any aboriginal populations in North Africa probably would have been subtropically adapted like the Bushmen of southernmost Africa today---that is, they would have had golden brown skin and limb proportions intermediate between tropical and temperate populations. They would have neither been black like tropical Africans nor white like Europeans. In fact, some bioanthropologists used to think that the Bushmen type was indeed present in North Africa in distant prehistory.

Not that this is pertinent to the question of who founded ancient Egypt. The significance of the Egyptians having tropical limb proportions is that Egypt is not in the tropics, so therefore any tropically adapted population living in Egypt would have come from further south, i.e. tropical Africa. The proto-Egyptians would have been recent migrants to North Africa, every bit as foreign to that environment as Bantu-speakers are to South Africa.

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Djehuti
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^ It's funny you say that because I have seen some pictures of Berbers who look strikingly similar to Khoisan aboriginals of Southern Africa. In fact, some of the earliest human remains in Northern Africa have been labeled as "Bushmanoid" in appearance including those in Egypt.

Modern North Africans

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^ Notice the complexion and facial features of the women in the first two pics and the feature of slanted eyes in the last two pictures.

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Truthcentric
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I have met people who think that Bushman-types were the dominant group in most of Africa until historical times, with the Bantu expansion being responsible for the current distribution of blacks throughout the continent. I don't believe that myself, though I do wonder if the "Broad" African phenotype in particular was indeed spread around the continent during the Bantu expansion.
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Djehuti
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^ Of course such a belief is based on the racialism as if there is one distinct "bushmanoid" type and one distinct "negroid" or "forest negro" type. We all know this to be nonsense. My point in those pictures is that I can sort of see where past anthropologists got that idea and even though the aboriginal populations of North Africa were likely subtropical adapted and had features in common with Khoisan, they were NOT Khoisan!
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Firben
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It is called polytopicity. I address it to following links:

http://books.google.se/books?id=Pq5wGaae5qkC&pg=PA128&lpg=PA128&dq=polytopicity&source=bl&ots=ecqy51DiGp&sig=-GXeZwiXlP51Fep9mVIxE0ytXMo&hl=sv&ei=MnZ5TKL7PIPaOMSEveUG&sa=X&oi=book_ result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=polytopicity&f=false

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.1330870302/abstract

Video as well : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1Yf6IV1LQ0&feature=related

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