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Author Topic: Caucasian Berbers etc.
Djehuti
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^ LOL Yes black bushy hair is no longer a trait of black Africans either, huh.

quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

Why do you keep trying to pretend that Berbers are some kind of race or single population is what I'm trying to figure out.

The semitic dialects are African too. So WHAT! Does that mean every person that speaks semitic is related to the original semitic speaker or Afro-Asiatic?

I speak English? Does that mean the original English speaker who came to this country looked like me?

Furthermore whether Afro-Asiatic originated in the Anatolia, in a UFO, Atlantis, the North Pole or on Mars, all evidence shows whoever was originally speaking that language group was BLACK. [Roll Eyes]

This is the strawman logic Malcontent keeps using. To cherry pick the non-black Berber speakers as representative of all Berbers including the proto-Berbers! It is laughable and ridiculous if anything else.
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alTakruri
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Juba II madness

_______ Juba II Numidian African ____________ Typical Euro-Roman
 -  -


The Numidian differs from the European in all the stereotypical hair and facial
features. The hair is thicker and "wilder." The eye is larger and rounder. The
cheek bones are higher and more protruding. The nose is flatter and broader
with nostrils tending to round/oval rather than oblong/slit shape. The lips are
thicker and more everted. King Juba II's antecedents thus seem the type of black
autochthonous to littoral North Africa.


 -

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the lioness,
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quote:
Takruri's True Negro identification Field Gude and Handbook, chapter 4, Facial features of the Common Negro, p 3:
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:


The Numidian differs from the European in all the stereotypical hair and facial
features. The hair is thicker and "wilder." The eye is larger and rounder. The
cheek bones are higher and more protruding. The nose is flatter and broader
with nostrils tending to round/oval rather than oblong/slit shape. The lips are
thicker and more everted. King Juba II's antecedents thus seem the type of black
autochthonous to littoral North Africa.



what nonsense, one person as prototypical "European"
one person as prototypical "Numidian"

that "wilder hair" thing was completely ridiculous, you can't be serious. have you turned into one of the curly hair = black theorists now, Mike and Iron finally got to you?
His hair consists of wavy curls of straight strand hair,
the straight strand lines clear in this sculpture.
Lips a little Mick Jaggerish so what


 -
Juba II

why do you delude yourself like this? The hair is a dead giveaway
not tightly coiled, not African indigenous or mulatto


 -

^^^ wild and crazy primitive hair

 -

the jig is up

well what about Juba I he's Rastafraian right?
 -

^^^wrong, this is obviously a Euro or Middleastern type trying to look hip by Africanizing his hair (or hat/wig whatever the hell is on his head)


the jig is up,

blacks in Carthage, yeah some, but look at all the Carthginian coins, It's primarily Phoenicians
and the Numidians next door, the kings had Punic names
this indicates who the majority population was, migrants from outside of Africa who settled nearly 3000 years ago.
Were there also dark skinned people of SS backgound around,

.

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Doug M
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One cannot rely on coins and statuary alone to determine the predominant phenotype in any place hundreds or thousands of years ago. If you would collect all the coins, statuary from the times of the Numidians you will definitely see blacks depicted among them. No amount of spinning will change the facts that these blacks have always been there or that mixed types were there as well. Anybody with eyes and can read a map can see that the proximity of Europe to North Africa makes it prone to mixing of populations from across and along the Mediterranean.

However, what is not clear and what has not been supported by those making the claim, is that Berber languages originates with Eurasian migrants to North Africa. Whether it be the Phoenicians, the Greeks, the Romans, the Normans, the Vandals, the Sea Peoples, the Turks, the Arabs or anyone else. Berber languages are strictly an African phenomenon not originating from populations outside the continent. Hence it is of no merit to say that because some Berbers are European in phenotype, that means that Berber is a European or Eurasian linguistic and cultural import to Africa. It is not. Cite whoever you want that says this from a scholarly perspective, but I doubt you will find any.

However, you will find many scholars and writers from throughout history who have talked of the mixed populations in parts of North Africa. Who in their right mind would even begin to suggest this is the debate? Of course they are there. However, when you speak of mixed this implies a native aboriginal component and a non native component. And in almost all cases the black African component is the aboriginal component. Please cite any author you wish who claims otherwise from literary sources. Scientifically this has also been shown through genetics and isn't really an argument either, but again show me some scientists who claim that black Africans are not the aboriginal indigenous populations of North Africa prior to any "mixed" populations of various backgrounds.

But these clowns want it both ways. The original populations were white and the later populations with whom they mixed and of course Berber languages popped up and originated with these white populations from outside of Africa. None of which is supported by any facts at all. But they will nit pick and argue about anything and everything that supports the identification of blacks in North Africa, because in order to support their absurd claims of an ancient aboriginal and pure non black "African" population in North Africa, they have to promote the idea of no indigenous black African features in no part of the population at any point of time in history. This is obviously demonstrably false, but that is their silliness at this point.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Anybody with eyes and can read a map can see that the proximity of Europe to North Africa makes it prone to mixing of populations from across and along the Mediterranean.

you will find many scholars and writers from throughout history who have talked of the mixed populations in parts of North Africa. Who in their right mind would even begin to suggest this is the debate? Of course they are there.

I agree

quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

However, what is not clear and what has not been supported by those making the claim, is that Berber languages originates with Eurasian migrants to North Africa. Whether it be the Phoenicians, the Greeks, the Romans, the Normans, the Vandals, the Sea Peoples, the Turks, the Arabs or anyone else. Berber languages are strictly an African phenomenon not originating from populations outside the continent.
Hence it is of no merit to say that because some Berbers are European in phenotype, that means that Berber is a European or Eurasian linguistic and cultural import to Africa. It is not. Cite whoever you want that says this from a scholarly perspective, but I doubt you will find any.

Berber languages and Berber peoples: genetic and linguistic diversity:

Naima Louali

Dating Proto-Berber remains a difficult task, and Berber represents a fascinating case for historical linguistic: it is very different from the other families of the Afro-Asiatic phylum which would indicate a very old split (around 8 000 ~ 9 000 years BP). On the other hand, present-day Berber languages are quite homogeneous suggesting that they shared a common ancestor not more than about 3000 years BP by comparison say to other families such as Romance or Germanic. Given this contradiction, it is practically impossible to identify the immediate ancestor of present-day Berber languages with the first stage of differentiation of Berber within the Afro-Asiatic phylum. We propose, on the basis of the lexical reconstruction of livestock-herding, a Proto-Berber 1 (PB1) around 7 000 BP and a Proto-Berber 2 (PB2) the direct ancestor of contemporary Berber languages (Louali & Philippson 2003).

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melchior7
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Only the ignorant are swayed by your lack of scholarship.

Williamson is based on Behrens as you'd see if you
could read. Prove you know how to read and quote the
Berber place of origin per Behrens.

And what about Blench?

Most important of all where is the scholar who
supports your bullshit place of origin for the
language?

Put up linguist scholars not some encyclopedia entry
that isn't even specific about the Berber language.

You're less than a joke. You can't name a single
modern day linguist to back up your full of bull.

Refuting you is easier than wrestling a paraplegic.

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Lol. Kay Williamson's expertise was on West African languages of Nigeria. The experts can't even agree where proto Afro Asuatc comes from but many believe that Proto Berber originates with the Capsian culture in North Africa.

"The Neolithic Capsian culture appeared in North Africa around 9,500 B.C.E. and lasted until possibly 2700 B.C.E. Linguists and population geneticists alike have identified this culture as a probable period for the spread of an Afro-Asiatic language (ancestral to the modern Berber languages) to the area."
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Berber.

Which means you are full of you know what!


You refute noting.
I don't need to search for some obscure studies to prove my point. The Encyclopedia reflects the consenus...Berber langauge likely orginated with Capsian culture in North africa. Deal with it.

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melchior7
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quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
What does the truth tell?

Afro-Asiatic originated in Africa, stop playing games.


I don't know but Arabic has the largest amount of speakers of any Afro Asiatic language.

WTF. What does that have to do with anything, Majority of African Americans speak English, Did we originate in England, or better yet using your criteria did English Originate in West Africa.

All of the Afro-Asiatic languages originated IN AFRICA except Semitic.

But it is still related to Semitic languages while it is not related to West African language like Wolof...you know this, right?

Who in the hell is talking about West African Languages specifically. I love how you Eurocentrics bend over backwards, changing the rules and segregating and nit picking when it suits you. The Same can be applied to Berber speakers and Southern Europeans, as Berbers are closer to Pitch black Oromos and Cushitic speaker than to the Europeans/Caucasian they resemble more, but of course this does'nt matter does it, In your world only things that matter are those that don't fit your Blubbery Lipped Pepper Corn Haired Negro image.


and we know that they live in close proximity to Arabia, and their genetic makeup shows non African haplogroups like J, T..and MtDNA R0a and HV1b, we have to wonder if this might have something to do with the fact that they look different from other Africans, no?

Im not going to play your cherry picked Images game. I can post images of Afro-Asiatic Speakers who look no different than "Other Africans" also concerning HG J Explorer makes a good case of its African origin.

The fact remains that All the languages of the Afro-Asiatic languages except possibly Semetic(even that though Might have) originated in Africa.

Case closed.

Dude when will you face facts? I don't care that you call it AFRO asiatic, most people don't associate those langauges with Blacks,ok? They think of Arabs, hebrews, Berbers etc.

And about Horn Africans are you going to pretend that their look has nothing to do with back migrations into Africa and the proximity of Ethiopia, Somalia etc to it's Semetic neighbors??

Ofd course you will cuz you're dishonest and desperate.

So the Explorer now claims J is African , does he? LOL! How surprising. Next he will be saying Louis XIV was Black. And of course you will believe him..What a trip. Lol!

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melchior7
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Where did I say anything about light features?? I'm talking about founder effect in terms of Y lineages.

Not arguing about the origin of Y leneages.


What's ignorant is that you deny blacks as the truly indigenous people despite that Berber is an African language and there is no proof of any non-African language in the region

I don't really consider Afro Asiatic languages African. Even its very name suggests that it is only part African. Berber is related to languages like Arabic and Hebrew. Afro Asiatic language bear no relation to most other African language families. Many Afro Asiatics speaker in Africa look mixed with Semitic features like the Ethipians Somalians etc

Now what's so funny about R originating in Africa when there are a high percentage underived R* markers in rural areas of Cameroon but only a few outside of Africa? Has it not occurred to you that downstream R carriers in Eurasia inherited it from their African ancestors??

You are ignoring the fact that R* markers are also found in Pakistan. And that parent haplogroup P orginates in Central Asia. Also R is scarce in Africa, existing in only a few areas.

Why do you keep trying to pretend that Berbers are some kind of race or single population is what I'm trying to figure out.

The semitic dialects are African too. So WHAT! Does that mean every person that speaks semitic is related to the original semitic speaker or Afro-Asiatic?

I speak English? Does that mean the original English speaker who came to this country looked like me?

Furthermore whether Afro-Asiatic originated in the Anatolia, in a UFO, Atlantis, the North Pole or on Mars, all evidence shows whoever was originally speaking that language group was BLACK. [Roll Eyes]

I happen to believe the langauge family orgionated in Asia. Most African populations that speak it are distinguished by having certain mediterranean or Caucasian features.


 -

You all know damn well, a narrow nose, light skin and straight hair are not tropically adapted traits. THEY COME FOM NON AFRICAN BLOOD!

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melchior7
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Yohooti,

The images on thoses stamps just look like swarthy North Africans, not sub Saharans. And's whith the pictures of Black Libyans, Tunisians? Ar you trying to claim the majority of Tunisians etc are Black ? Lol.

And when I lived in France I never heard anyone call North Africans Mongrels or Mulatoes. They called them ARABS! Lol!

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Sahel (Siptah)
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quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
What does the truth tell?

Afro-Asiatic originated in Africa, stop playing games.


I don't know but Arabic has the largest amount of speakers of any Afro Asiatic language.

WTF. What does that have to do with anything, Majority of African Americans speak English, Did we originate in England, or better yet using your criteria did English Originate in West Africa.

All of the Afro-Asiatic languages originated IN AFRICA except Semitic.

But it is still related to Semitic languages while it is not related to West African language like Wolof...you know this, right?

Who in the hell is talking about West African Languages specifically. I love how you Eurocentrics bend over backwards, changing the rules and segregating and nit picking when it suits you. The Same can be applied to Berber speakers and Southern Europeans, as Berbers are closer to Pitch black Oromos and Cushitic speaker than to the Europeans/Caucasian they resemble more, but of course this does'nt matter does it, In your world only things that matter are those that don't fit your Blubbery Lipped Pepper Corn Haired Negro image.


and we know that they live in close proximity to Arabia, and their genetic makeup shows non African haplogroups like J, T..and MtDNA R0a and HV1b, we have to wonder if this might have something to do with the fact that they look different from other Africans, no?

Im not going to play your cherry picked Images game. I can post images of Afro-Asiatic Speakers who look no different than "Other Africans" also concerning HG J Explorer makes a good case of its African origin.

The fact remains that All the languages of the Afro-Asiatic languages except possibly Semetic(even that though Might have) originated in Africa.

Case closed.

Dude when will you face facts? I don't care that you call it AFRO asiatic, most people don't associate those langauges with Blacks,ok? They think of Arabs, hebrews, Berbers etc.

And about Horn Africans are you going to pretend that their look has nothing to do with back migrations into Africa and the proximity of Ethiopia, Somalia etc to it's Semetic neighbors??

Ofd course you will cuz you're dishonest and desperate.

So the Explorer now claims J is African , does he? LOL! How surprising. Next he will be saying Louis XIV was Black. And of course you will believe him..What a trip. Lol!

So if you refuse to accept or learn provided information then what do you hope to achieve here? No one should dignify the opinions they regard as silly or delusional. Thus your on-going persistent exchange with people you regard as ignorant Afrocentrics indicates that your greatest fear is your opinion is wrong. You fear being unsure about something which is why you keep your eye on our exchange of views while having the reactions you have.
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melchior7
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From the book Disowning slavery...by Joane Pope Melish

"a Mr. Brooks, a former captive, reported to James W. Stevens that the inhabitants of the Barbary Coast exhibited a "pretty fair complexion"

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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Dude when will you face facts? I don't care that you call it AFRO asiatic, most people don't associate those langauges with Blacks,ok? They think of Arabs, hebrews, Berbers etc.

As I said I don't give a damn what you think bitch. Your damned opinion does'nt change the facts. And The Language group your dumb ass keeps invoking is Semetic one Branch of the Language group. Thats like Claiming the Germanic Languages and their speakers represent the Indo European Language Group.

Ask people what comes to mind when they hear Cushitic, Chadian, Ethiopic etc. And come back to me.


And about Horn Africans are you going to pretend that their look has nothing to do with back migrations into Africa and the proximity of Ethiopia, Somalia etc to it's Semetic neighbors??

Im not pretending anything. No evidence exists that Back Migrations had any drastic impact on the Horn, and many non Africans derive their features from the Horn not vice versa. By the Way the so called "Back Migrations" or Red Sea Migrations went both ways, but your dishonest ass will fight toothe and nail against Black Arabs and Blacks in Mesopotamia etc.


Ofd course you will cuz you're dishonest and desperate.

Speak for yourself, your dumbass cant even make an argument with out changing facts and grasping at any little thing that support your notion. You've had you ass handed to you in more ways than one on E.S. All you are is talk son.


So the Explorer now claims J is African , does he? LOL! How surprising. Next he will be saying Louis XIV was Black. And of course you will believe him..What a trip. Lol!

You have yet to prove him wrong as far as Im concerned..

BTW, Your ass sure became quiet here..what wrong bitch.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=007225;p=3

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Doug M
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Still waiting for citations of the white, meaning pale white skinned aboriginal Africans who were the original speakers of the Berber languages and where they existed.

Or even better a citation for the white non African Eurasian populations that introduced Berber languages to Africa and created the language and culture in Africa.

Barring any ability to cite such evidence the position that the presence of historical mixed populations in the coast of North Africa does not constitute proof that Berber languages originated with Eurasian white people in or outside Africa. It only proves that some Berber speakers are mixed with non Africans and the facts of Eurasian ancestry among many coastal Berber populations shows that ultimately they are not ancient aboriginal Africans as opposed to the mixture of indigenous Africans and non Africans.

And to that point, please cite for me where these mixed populations in the coasts of North Africa do not represent a mixed population of Eurasian ancestry. Eurasian is not African. But if you can cite how these white Africans are ancient and aboriginal Africans please do.

No need to quibble about it provide the facts and make it plain.

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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Interstingly an Biracial Arfican American caused a sensation in Barbary..

In fact, Adams claims that he excited "uncommon curiosity" among the Moors who captured him because they "had never seen [a white man] before" (229). At the same time, the scribe parenthetically notes that Adams was "a very dark man, with short curly black hair" (229).

http://www.africa.ufl.edu/asq/v4/v4i1a10.htm

BTW Why did'nt you quote the whole post...

 -

http://books.google.com/books?id=l6GrQkssEcUC&pg=PA155&lpg=PA155&dq=%22a+Mr.+Brooks,+a+former+captive,+reported+to+James+W.+Stevens+that+the+inhabitants+of+the+Barbary+Coast+exhibi ted+a+%22pretty+fair+complexion%22&source=bl&ots=NXNadPOM-p&sig=dPPUHMz3Pw1s8UT4JqEQ5Wl5br0&hl=en&ei=R2STTpLyCcqEsALL_82gAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAA#v =onepage&q=%22a%20Mr.%20Brooks%2C%20a%20former%20captive%2C%20reported%20to%20James%20W.%20Stevens%20that%20the%20inhabitants%20of%20the%20Barbary%20Coast%20exhibited%20a%20%22pret ty%20fair%20complexion%22&f=false
You are so desperate and dishonest its pathetic..

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
From the book Disowning slavery...by Joane Pope Melish

"a Mr. Brooks, a former captive, reported to James W. Stevens that the inhabitants of the Barbary Coast exhibited a "pretty fair complexion"


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melchior7
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Still waiting for citations of the white, meaning pale white skinned aboriginal Africans who were the original speakers of the Berber languages and where they existed.

Please show me where I said the orginal Berber speakers were pale White?? I'm saying they looked like the do now.

 -

They never looked anything like west African Blacks

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

, he observed a notably pale Berber tribe which he described as follows:

"

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:


How is it these recessive White traits have survived for so long if the majority of Berbers

 -

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
From the book Disowning slavery...by Joane Pope Melish

"a Mr. Brooks, a former captive, reported to James W. Stevens that the inhabitants of the Barbary Coast exhibited a "pretty fair complexion"

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
When you go visit Spain and go into the old Muslim ALhambra Palace and look in the kings hall This what you see. LOL!

 -

the Spanish have a different notion about what the Moors tended to look like.

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Please show me where I said the orginal Berber speakers were pale White??


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melchior7
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As I said I don't give a damn what you think bitch. Your damned opinion does'nt change the facts. And The Language group your dumb ass keeps invoking is Semetic one Branch of the Language group. Thats like Claiming the Germanic Languages and their speakers represent the Indo European Language Group.


Afroasiatic has been tied to Back migrations into African by many linguists. Some believe it came in with R1 others with J. Indo Europeans are the MAIN langauge family in Europe and practically define Europeans. This Afro asiatic you want to root for is very un african in it's structure and is not spoken by the majority of Black Africans.

Ask people what comes to mind when they hear Cushitic, Chadian, Ethiopic etc. And come back to me.

Most people have never heard of those but they heard of Arabic.



Im not pretending anything. No evidence exists that Back Migrations had any drastic impact on the Horn, and many non Africans derive their features from the Horn not vice versa. By the Way the so called "Back Migrations" or Red Sea Migrations went both ways, but your dishonest ass will fight toothe and nail against Black Arabs and Blacks in Mesopotamia etc.


You're not pretending you're straight out lying. People's phenotype is the result of adaptation to their envorinment. Any Way i already showed that Horn Africans have a lot of Eurasian haplotypes. I'm sorry if you don't like it. It is what it is.


Ofd course you will cuz you're dishonest and desperate.

Speak for yourself, your dumbass cant even make an argument with out changing facts and grasping at any little thing that support your notion. You've had you ass handed to you in more ways than one on E.S. All you are is talk son.

I run rings around your head making you confused thinking you have actually won. Most of my time is pent trying to get you understand simple logic. Not an easy task but I keep trying.


You have yet to prove him wrong as far as Im concerned..

I don't have to, academia proves him wrong. Academia proves afrocentrism wrong.

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melchior7
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quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

, he observed a notably pale Berber tribe which he described as follows:

"

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:


How is it these recessive White traits have survived for so long if the majority of Berbers

 -

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
From the book Disowning slavery...by Joane Pope Melish

"a Mr. Brooks, a former captive, reported to James W. Stevens that the inhabitants of the Barbary Coast exhibited a "pretty fair complexion"

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
When you go visit Spain and go into the old Muslim ALhambra Palace and look in the kings hall This what you see. LOL!

 -

the Spanish have a different notion about what the Moors tended to look like.

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Please show me where I said the orginal Berber speakers were pale White??


You do realize that none of what you posted shows me saying that the orginal Berber speakers were pale white. I have harped on the Berbers with fair traits because i know you all luv it. [Big Grin]
But i have always maintained that the majority of North Africans are Middle Eastern or Mediterrean looking as I'm sure you will remember. Your sophmoric attempts to catch me in a lie only makes you look the fool.

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melchior7
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So if you refuse to accept or learn provided information then what do you hope to achieve here? No one should dignify the opinions they regard as silly or delusional. Thus your on-going persistent exchange with people you regard as ignorant Afrocentrics indicates that your greatest fear is your opinion is wrong. You fear being unsure about something which is why you keep your eye on our exchange of views while having the reactions you have

I am not at all new to these topics if i should learn a thing now and then, I'm greatful. What I am arguing about here is the intrepation of the facts, one which would have us believe that North Africa was almost entire Black until recent times until it was somehow magically transformed by European slaves as it were. I believe that North Africans have always looked more or less the same since the begining of historic times.

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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Afroasiatic has been tied to Back migrations into African by many linguists.

Yeah and Im sure you are going to post this evidence just as Altaruri and other have asked of you

Berber

 -

Afro-Asiatic

 -

The genetic data do not support a model of demic difusion by farmers from the Levant to explain the Neolithic in northern or Eastern Africa, or the spread of the Afro-Asiatic languages into Africa."

"Thus, we propose that the current distribution
of Ethiosemitic reflects a process of language
diffusion through existing African populations
with little gene flow from the Arabian Peninsula
(i.e. a language shift)."



Ancient Egyptian as an African Language, Egypt as an African Culture

Christopher Ehret
Professor of History, African Studies Chair
University of California at Los Angeles

 -

Ancient Egyptian civilization was, in ways and to an extent usually not recognized, fundamentally African. The evidence of both language and culture reveals these African roots.

The origins of Egyptian ethnicity lay in the areas south of Egypt. The ancient Egyptian language belonged to the Afrasian family (also called Afroasiatic or, formerly, Hamito-Semitic). The speakers of the earliest Afrasian languages, according to recent studies, were a set of peoples whose lands between 15,000 and 13,000 B.C. stretched from Nubia in the west to far northern Somalia in the east. They supported themselves by gathering wild grains. The first elements of Egyptian culture were laid down two thousand years later, between 12,000 and 10,000 B.C., when some of these Afrasian communities expanded northward into Egypt, bringing with them a language directly ancestral to ancient Egyptian. They also introduced to Egypt the idea of using wild grains as food.

A new religion came with them as well. Its central tenet explains the often localized origins of later Egyptian gods: the earliest Afrasians were, properly speaking, neither monotheistic nor polytheistic. Instead, each local community, comprising a clan or a group of related clans, had its own distinct deity and centered its religious observances on that deity. This belief system persists today among several Afrasian peoples of far southwest Ethiopia. And as Biblical scholars have shown, Yahweh, god of the ancient Hebrews, an Afrasian people of the Semitic group, was originally also such a deity. The connection of many of Egypt's predynastic gods to particular localities is surely a modified version of this early Afrasian belief. Political unification in the late fourth millennium brought the Egyptian deities together in a new polytheistic system. But their local origins remain amply apparent in the records that have come down to us.

During the long era between about 10,000 and 6000 B.C., new kinds of southern influences diffused into Egypt. During these millennia, the Sahara had a wetter climate than it has today, with grassland or steppes in many areas that are now almost absolute desert. New wild animals, most notably the cow, spread widely in the eastern Sahara in this period.

One of the exciting archeological events of the past twenty years was the discovery that the peoples of the steppes and grasslands to the immediate south of Egypt domesticated these cattle, as early as 9000 to 8000 B.C. The societies involved in this momentous development included Afrasians and neighboring peoples whose languages belonged to a second major African language family, Nilo-Saharan (Wendorf, Schild, Close 1984; Wendorf, et al. 1982). The earliest domestic cattle came to Egypt apparently from these southern neighbors, probably before 6000 B.C., not, as we used to think, from the Middle East.

One major technological advance, pottery-making, was also initiated as early as 9000 B.C. by the Nilo-Saharans and Afrasians who lived to the south of Egypt. Soon thereafter, pots spread to Egyptian sites, almost 2,000 years before the first pottery was made in the Middle East.

Very late in the same span of time, the cultivating of crops began in Egypt. Since most of Egypt belonged then to the Mediterranean climatic zone, many of the new food plants came from areas of similar climate in the Middle East. Two domestic animals of Middle Eastern origin, the sheep and the goat, also entered northeastern Africa from the north during this era.

But several notable early Egyptian crops came from Sudanic agriculture, independently invented between 7500 and 6000 B.C. by the Nilo-Saharan peoples (Ehret 1993:104-125). One such cultivated crop was the edible gourd. The botanical evidence is confirmed in this case by linguistics: Egyptian bdt, or "bed of gourds" (Late Egyptian bdt, "gourd; cucumber"), is a borrowing of the Nilo-Saharan word *bud, "edible gourd." Other early Egyptian crops of Sudanic origin included watermelons and castor beans. (To learn more on how historians use linguistic evidence, see note at end of this article.)

Between about 5000 and 3000 B.C. a new era of southern cultural influences took shape. Increasing aridity pushed more of the human population of the eastern Sahara into areas with good access to the waters of the Nile, and along the Nile the bottomlands were for the first time cleared and farmed. The Egyptian stretches of the river came to form the northern edge of a newly emergent Middle Nile Culture Area, which extended far south up the river, well into the middle of modern-day Sudan. Peoples speaking languages of the Eastern Sahelian branch of the Nilo-Saharan family inhabited the heartland of this region.

From the Middle Nile, Egypt gained new items of livelihood between 5000 and 3000 B.C. One of these was a kind of cattle pen: its Egyptian name, s3 (earlier *sr), can be derived from the Eastern Sahelian term *sar. Egyptian pg3, "bowl," (presumably from earlier pgr), a borrowing of Nilo-Saharan *poKur, "wooden bowl or trough," reveals still another adoption in material culture that most probably belongs to this era.

One key feature of classical Egyptian political culture, usually assumed to have begun in Egypt, also shows strong links to the southern influences of this period. We refer here to a particular kind of sacral chiefship that entailed, in its earliest versions, the sending of servants into the afterlife along with the deceased chief. The deep roots and wide occurrence of this custom among peoples who spoke Eastern Sahelian languages strongly imply that sacral chiefship began not as a specifically Egyptian invention, but instead as a widely shared development of the Middle Nile Culture Area.

After about 3500 B.C., however, Egypt would have started to take on a new role vis-a-vis the Middle Nile region, simply because of its greater concentration of population. Growing pressures on land and resources soon enhanced and transformed the political powers of sacral chiefs. Unification followed, and the local deities of predynastic times became gods in a new polytheism, while sacral chiefs gave way to a divine king. At the same time, Egypt passed from the wings to center stage in the unfolding human drama of northeastern Africa.

A Note on the Use of Linguistic Evidence for History

Languages provide a powerful set of tools for probing the cultural history of the peoples who spoke them. Determining the relationships between particular languages, such as the languages of the Afrasian or the Nilo-Saharan family, gives us an outline history of the societies that spoke those languages in the past. And because each word in a language has its own individual history, the vocabulary of every language forms a huge archive of documents. If we can trace a particular word back to the common ancestor language of a language family, then we know that the item of culture connoted by the word was known to the people who spoke the ancestral tongue. If the word underwent a meaning change between then and now, a corresponding change must have taken place in the cultural idea or practice referred to by the word. In contrast, if a word was borrowed from another language, it attests to a thing or development that passed from the one culture to the other. The English borrowing, for example, of castle, duke, parliament, and many other political and legal terms from Old Norman French are evidence of a Norman period of rule in England, a fact confirmed by documents.


References Cited:

Ehret, Christopher, Nilo-Saharans and the Saharo-Sahelian Neolithic. In African Archaeology: Food, Metals and Towns. T. Shaw, P Sinclair, B. Andah, and A. Okpoko, eds. pp. 104-125. London: Routledge. 1993

Ehret, Christopher, Reconstructing Proto-Afroasiatic (Proto-Afrasian): Vowels, Tone Consonants, and Vocabulary. Los Angeles: University of California Press, Berkeley. 1995

Wendorf, F., et al., Saharan Exploitation of Plants 8000 Years B.P. Nature 359:721-724. 1982

Wendorf, F., R. Schild, and A. Close, eds. Cattle-Keepers of the Eastern Sahara. Dallas: Southern Methodist University, Department of Anthropology. 1984


Even so the people would have looked black no matter what side of the Red Sea they lived..


You're not pretending you're straight out lying.

Put up or shut up. Prove me wrong that Migrations went both ways, Prove me wrong that Eurasians have any drastic impact on Afroasiatic Speakers as a whole.


BTW here is a climate map of the World...Notice something about Arabia, the Levant and Africa??

 -


I run rings around your head making you confused thinking you have actually won. Most of my time is pent trying to get you understand simple logic. Not an easy task but I keep trying.

Keep dreaming dude, anyone can look back and see your ass Swithcing positions, back peddaling, and double talking.

You are so stupid you think you are proving anything, but are reduced to personal opinions and cherry picked picture spams.


I don't have to, academia proves him wrong. Academia proves afrocentrism wrong.

If Academia proves him wrong it would be easy for you to shut him up. Yet your bitch ass has yet to post to the R1b Thread because he wiped the fucking floor with you. All you can do is Google Search and give personal opinions and the random picture spam. Explorer deals strictly with facts and you can't handle it. All your pseudo macho talk and chest bumping is not impressing anyone son.

GTFOH.

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
What about the Chaoui?



 -


Riffian?

 -

Mozabites?

 -

Isn't it easier to admit that there were light skineed Berbers from early on? Given that light phenotype is recesive, the light skinned folk must have been the majority.

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
From the book Disowning slavery...by Joane Pope Melish

"a Mr. Brooks, a former captive, reported to James W. Stevens that the inhabitants of the Barbary Coast exhibited a "pretty fair complexion"

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
When you go visit Spain and go into the old Muslim ALhambra Palace and look in the kings hall This what you see. LOL!

 -

the Spanish have a different notion about what the Moors tended to look like.

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
[QB] I have harped on the Berbers with fair traits because i know you all luv it. /QB]

 -
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alTakruri
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I have dealt with it but you as yet haven't.

You have failed to produce any modern linguist
in support of your contentions. Therefore they
are academically groundless. Encyclopedias are
for elementary and secondary school reference.
Post secondary educated adults prefer current
info from specialists in the field under study.

After a few days of "researching" since I issued
the challenge you return to admit defeat, that
you couldn't find not even one solitarity source.


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Most important of all where is the scholar who
supports your bullish place of origin for the
language?

Put up linguist scholars not some encyclopedia entry
that isn't even specific about the Berber language.

You can't name a single modern day linguist to back up your full of bull.

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
... many believe that Proto Berber originates with the Capsian culture in North Africa.


I don't need to search for some obscure studies to prove my point.

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alTakruri
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

The Numidian differs from the European in all the stereotypical hair and facial
features. The hair is thicker and "wilder." The eye is larger and rounder. The
cheek bones are higher and more protruding. The nose is flatter and broader
with nostrils tending to round/oval rather than oblong/slit shape. The lips are
thicker and more everted. King Juba II's antecedents thus seem the type of black
autochthonous to littoral North Africa.



that "wilder hair" thing was completely ridiculous, you can't be serious. have you turned into one of the curly hair = black theorists now, Mike and Iron finally got to you?
His hair consists of wavy curls of straight strand hair,
the straight strand lines clear in this sculpture.
Lips a little Mick Jaggerish so what

When ascertained not to be overtly stylized the
plastic arts including coinage are very good for
depicting its subjects features and it follows
the physical traits of the ethnicity of that subject.

Even as heavily philhellenic as Juba II was it was
no accident he chose a crocodile and an elephant,
animals symbolic of Africa for the reverse side of
his coins.

Keeping in mind what I wrote about Juba II in
comparison to the Euro-Roman displayed next
to him in the Archaeological Museum, Rabat
(Morocco) when reading the Louvre's write up
on its bust of Juba II as a late middle aged man.


 -
Juba II (King of Mauretania, 25 BC-AD 23)

An aging prince

This full face portrait with high forehead and long, sunken cheeks, is framed by a mass of short, rather wild curls, held in place by a headband. The arch of the eyebrows overshadows the inner corner of the downward slanting eyes. The nose is broad, the mouth full and sensual, and there is a deep cleft in the chin.

Despite the damage it has incurred, the features of this tired face are recognizable as those of Juba II at the age of about sixty. When the head was discovered it was immediately identified as such; this suggestion was confirmed after comparison with effigies on coins and other portraits of the prince, whose strong features, wide-set eyes, and thick hair are clearly recognizable.


Hellenistic art

The classical culture of King Juba II is apparent in this portrait of the philhellenic king, which portrays him like a Hellenistic sovereign: beardless, short-haired, and wearing a royal headband. Hellenistic art also inspired the carefully modeled flesh and the idealization (which does not, however, overlook the subject's human qualities or ethnic group).


Excerpts source LOUVRE: Juba II (King of Mauretania, 25 BC-AD 23)

===

Juba II madness

_______ Juba II Numidian African ____________ Typical Euro-Roman
 -  -


The Numidian differs from the European in all the stereotypical hair and facial
features. The hair is thicker and "wilder." The eye is larger and rounder. The
cheek bones are higher and more protruding. The nose is flatter and broader
with nostrils tending to round/oval rather than oblong/slit shape. The lips are
thicker and more everted. King Juba II's antecedents thus seem the type of black
autochthonous to littoral North Africa.


 -

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Doug M
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Considering that North Africa contains many populations with recent Eurasian ancestry including those who self identify as Arabs or once as Jews, it is impossible to claim they are exactly the same now as they have always been.
That is nonsensical. Not to mention that included in North Africa is the Sahara desert which as always been populated by blacks and which has always been a impetus for migrations to the North and South and which is one of the original homes of Berber speaking populations

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alTakruri
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quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
I don't really consider Afro Asiatic languages African. Even its very name suggests that it is only part African.

It doesn't matter what you consider. What matters is
linguists' opinions. The super phyla of the Afrisian
macrophylum are conventionally broken down into

Omotic; location = Africa
Cushitic; location = Africa
Chadic; location = Africa
Egyptian; location = Africa
Semitic; location = Africa + SW Asia
Berber; location = Africa

Its easily seen the macrophylum is overwhelmingly
African with Hebrew and Arabic entering continental
Africa via SW Asian migrants and conquering invaders
facilitated by religious compulsion.
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
 -

You all know damn well, a narrow nose, light skin and straight hair are not tropically adapted traits. THEY COME FOM NON AFRICAN BLOOD!

Really? You obviously are totally unfamiliar with
current anthropologists studies on the stone age
osteo remains of the region. Those features already
existed when E1b bearing East Africans migrated
northward spreading their "genes" and "phenes."

Ever heard of clines?

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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

The Numidian differs from the European in all the stereotypical hair and facial
features. The hair is thicker and "wilder." The eye is larger and rounder. The
cheek bones are higher and more protruding. The nose is flatter and broader
with nostrils tending to round/oval rather than oblong/slit shape. The lips are
thicker and more everted. King Juba II's antecedents thus seem the type of black
autochthonous to littoral North Africa.



that "wilder hair" thing was completely ridiculous, you can't be serious. have you turned into one of the curly hair = black theorists now, Mike and Iron finally got to you?
His hair consists of wavy curls of straight strand hair,
the straight strand lines clear in this sculpture.
Lips a little Mick Jaggerish so what

When ascertained not to be overtly stylized the
plastic arts including coinage are very good for
depicting its subjects features and it follows
the physical traits of the ethnicity of that subject.

Even as heavily philhellenic as Juba II was it was
no accident he chose a crocodile and an elephant,
animals symbolic of Africa for the reverse side of
his coins.

Keeping in mind what I wrote about Juba II in
comparison to the Euro-Roman displayed next
to him in the Archaeological Museum, Rabat
(Morocco) when reading the Louvre's write up
on its bust of Juba II as a late middle aged man.


 -
Juba II (King of Mauretania, 25 BC-AD 23)

An aging prince

This full face portrait with high forehead and long, sunken cheeks, is framed by a mass of short, rather wild curls, held in place by a headband. The arch of the eyebrows overshadows the inner corner of the downward slanting eyes. The nose is broad, the mouth full and sensual, and there is a deep cleft in the chin.

Despite the damage it has incurred, the features of this tired face are recognizable as those of Juba II at the age of about sixty. When the head was discovered it was immediately identified as such; this suggestion was confirmed after comparison with effigies on coins and other portraits of the prince, whose strong features, wide-set eyes, and thick hair are clearly recognizable.


Hellenistic art

The classical culture of King Juba II is apparent in this portrait of the philhellenic king, which portrays him like a Hellenistic sovereign: beardless, short-haired, and wearing a royal headband. Hellenistic art also inspired the carefully modeled flesh and the idealization (which does not, however, overlook the subject's human qualities or ethnic group).


Excerpts source LOUVRE: Juba II (King of Mauretania, 25 BC-AD 23)

===

Juba II madness

_______ Juba II Numidian African ____________ Typical Euro-Roman
 -  -


The Numidian differs from the European in all the stereotypical hair and facial
features. The hair is thicker and "wilder." The eye is larger and rounder. The
cheek bones are higher and more protruding. The nose is flatter and broader
with nostrils tending to round/oval rather than oblong/slit shape. The lips are
thicker and more everted. King Juba II's antecedents thus seem the type of black
autochthonous to littoral North Africa.


 -

And there are still North Africans in Algeria and Tunisia matching that sort of phenotype with black skin. Heck some of them look almost Indian or Sri Lankan.

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/enzomarcantonio/3257944372/

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/salsilandia/5377673836/lightbox/

I would like to submit it is these aboriginal types that some would like to offer up as ancient caucasoid whites.

Not to mention these types of Berbers from Lybia:
 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/travelgeo/5707122154/in/set-72157626689939334/

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alTakruri
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quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Interstingly an Biracial Arfican American caused a sensation in Barbary..

In fact, Adams claims that he excited "uncommon curiosity" among the Moors who captured him because they "had never seen [a white man] before" (229). At the same time, the scribe parenthetically notes that Adams was "a very dark man, with short curly black hair" (229).

http://www.africa.ufl.edu/asq/v4/v4i1a10.htm

BTW Why did'nt you quote the whole post...

 -

[url= [url= http://books.google.com/books?id=l6GrQkssEcUC&pg=PA155&lpg=PA155&dq=%22a+Mr.+Brooks,+a+former+captive,+reported+to+James+W.+Stevens+that+the+inhabitants+of+the+Barbary+Coast+exhibi ]http://books.google.com/books?id=l6GrQkssEcUC&pg=PA155&lpg=PA155&dq=%22a+Mr.+Brooks,+a+former+captive,+reported+to+James+W.+Stevens+that+the+inhabitants+of+the+Barbary+Coast+exhib i [/url] ted+a+%22pretty+fair+complexion%22&source=bl&ots=NXNadPOM-p&sig=dPPUHMz3Pw1s8UT4JqEQ5Wl5br0&hl=en&ei=R2STTpLyCcqEsALL_82gAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAA#v =onepage&q=%22a%20Mr.%20Brooks%2C%20a%20former%20captive%2C%20reported%20to%20James%20W.%20Stevens%20that%20the%20inhabitants%20of%20the%20Barbary%20Coast%20exhibited%20a%20%22pret ty%20fair%20complexion%22&f=false]http://books.google.com/books?id=l6GrQkssEcUC&pg=PA155&lpg=PA155&dq=%22a+Mr.+Brooks,+a+former+captive,+reported+to+James+W.+Stevens+that+the+inhab itants+of+the+Barbary+Coast+exhibi ted+a+%22pretty+fair+complexion%22&source=bl&ots=NXNadPOM-p&sig=dPPUHMz3Pw1s8UT4JqEQ5Wl5br0&hl=en&ei=R2STTpLyCcqEsALL_82gAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAA#v =onepage&q=%22a%20Mr.%20Brooks%2C%20a%20former%20captive%2C%20reported%20to%20James%20W.%20Stevens%20that%20the%20inhabitants%20of%20the%20Barbary%20Coast%20exhibited%20a%20%22pret ty%20fair%20complexion%22&f=false[/url]
You are so desperate and dishonest its pathetic..

@Jari et al

Just using the URL only up to the lpg parameter like this
http://books.google.com/books?id=l6GrQkssEcUC&pg=PA155&lpg=PA155
is enough to link us tp a GOOGLE BOOKS page. It saves
us from scrolling left and right to read line by line
an overwide stretched screen compared to the longer URL.

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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^^^^^
Thank Al, Noted for next time..

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by malcontent7:

Yohooti,

The images on thoses stamps just look like swarthy North Africans, not sub Saharans. And's whith the pictures of Black Libyans, Tunisians? Ar you trying to claim the majority of Tunisians etc are Black ? Lol.

And when I lived in France I never heard anyone call North Africans Mongrels or Mulatoes. They called them ARABS! Lol!

This is your problem. You seem to subscribe to the fallacy of a stereotypical Sub-Saharan i.e. "true negro" type. Reality is black Africans vary in features. How nice that so-called 'caca-soids' can vary from Nordic, to Alpine, to that oh so vague 'Mediterranean' type that is found beyond the actual Mediterreanean. And if you call milk chocolate "swarthy", then I guess a lot of Sub-Saharans are swarthy also.
quote:

I happen to believe the language family originated in Asia. Most African populations that speak it are distinguished by having certain mediterranean or Caucasian features.

[Roll Eyes] Has it not occurred to you yet that nobody gives a roach's ass what you believe. We here at Egyptsearch only care about FACTS. FACT is, all branches of Afrisian except ONE are spoken in Africa NOT Asia. Fact is even those speakers of Semitic in Southwest Asia show African genetic markers via E1b1b and other lineages. Fact is there is no such thing as "caucasian features" as was explained in this forum so many times.

quote:
 -
Nice cherry pick of Benadiri Somali girls. Benadiri by the way, are Somalis of foreign ancestry like Arab, Persian, Indian, etc. from the coast, hence the light skin tones of a few. Of course you are too dishonest to post of picture of how majority of Somalis look like.
quote:
You all know damn well, a narrow nose, light skin and straight hair are not tropically adapted traits. THEY COME FOM NON AFRICAN BLOOD!
Nope! I know damn well that narrow noses have nothing to do with foreign ancestry as such noses are found as far south as Rwanda and Tanzania. I know damn well that light skin is NOT common among most Afrisian speakers in Africa at all not among most Somalis (excluding your Benadir cherry pic) as well as most in Sub-Sahara with those coastal North Africans having Eurasian ancestry from recent historical times that have nothing to do with the language family. As for straight hair, actually the hair is wavy and there are Africans who have such hair and do not speak Afrisian.

Peul woman of West Africa.

 -

^ She and her people speak Niger-Congo languages and have entirely African lineages but have "caca-soid" features, so what do you call this??

You have been DEBUNKED!

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

Interstingly an Biracial Arfican American caused a sensation in Barbary..

In fact, Adams claims that he excited "uncommon curiosity" among the Moors who captured him because they "had never seen [a white man] before" (229). At the same time, the scribe parenthetically notes that Adams was "a very dark man, with short curly black hair" (229).

http://www.africa.ufl.edu/asq/v4/v4i1a10.htm

BTW Why did'nt you quote the whole post...

 -

[url= http://books.google.com/books?id=l6GrQkssEcUC&pg=PA155&lpg=PA155&dq=%22a+Mr.+Brooks,+a+former+captive,+reported+to+James+W.+Stevens+that+the+inhabitants+of+the+Barbary+Coast+exhibi ted+a+%22pretty+fair+complexion%22&source=bl&ots=NXNadPOM-p&sig=dPPUHMz3Pw1s8UT4JqEQ5Wl5br0&hl=en&ei=R2STTpLyCcqEsALL_82gAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAA#v =onepage&q=%22a%20Mr.%20Brooks%2C%20a%20former%20captive%2C%20reported%20to%20James%20W.%20Stevens%20that%20the%20inhabitants%20of%20the%20Barbary%20Coast%20exhibited%20a%20%22pret ty%20fair%20complexion%22&f=false]http://books.google.com/books?id=l6GrQkssEcUC&pg=PA155&lpg=PA155&dq=%22a+Mr.+Brooks,+a+former+captive,+reported+to+James+W.+Stevens+that+the+inhab itants+of+the+Barbary+Coast+exhibi ted+a+%22pretty+fair+complexion%22&source=bl&ots=NXNadPOM-p&sig=dPPUHMz3Pw1s8UT4JqEQ5Wl5br0&hl=en&ei=R2STTpLyCcqEsALL_82gAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAA#v =onepage&q=%22a%20Mr.%20Brooks%2C%20a%20former%20captive%2C%20reported%20to%20James%20W.%20Stevens%20that%20the%20inhabitants%20of%20the%20Barbary%20Coast%20exhibited%20a%20%22pret ty%20fair%20complexion%22&f=false[/url]

You are so desperate and dishonest its pathetic..

And this is why I no longer take the malcontent idiot seriously! [Embarrassed]
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
quote:
Originally posted by the lyinass:
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

The Numidian differs from the European in all the stereotypical hair and facial
features. The hair is thicker and "wilder." The eye is larger and rounder. The
cheek bones are higher and more protruding. The nose is flatter and broader
with nostrils tending to round/oval rather than oblong/slit shape. The lips are
thicker and more everted. King Juba II's antecedents thus seem the type of black
autochthonous to littoral North Africa.



that "wilder hair" thing was completely ridiculous, you can't be serious. have you turned into one of the curly hair = black theorists now, Mike and Iron finally got to you?
His hair consists of wavy curls of straight strand hair,
the straight strand lines clear in this sculpture.
Lips a little Mick Jaggerish so what

When ascertained not to be overtly stylized the
plastic arts including coinage are very good for
depicting its subjects features and it follows
the physical traits of the ethnicity of that subject.

Even as heavily philhellenic as Juba II was it was
no accident he chose a crocodile and an elephant,
animals symbolic of Africa for the reverse side of
his coins.

Keeping in mind what I wrote about Juba II in
comparison to the Euro-Roman displayed next
to him in the Archaeological Museum, Rabat
(Morocco) when reading the Louvre's write up
on its bust of Juba II as a late middle aged man.


 -
Juba II (King of Mauretania, 25 BC-AD 23)

An aging prince

This full face portrait with high forehead and long, sunken cheeks, is framed by a mass of short, rather wild curls, held in place by a headband. The arch of the eyebrows overshadows the inner corner of the downward slanting eyes. The nose is broad, the mouth full and sensual, and there is a deep cleft in the chin.

Despite the damage it has incurred, the features of this tired face are recognizable as those of Juba II at the age of about sixty. When the head was discovered it was immediately identified as such; this suggestion was confirmed after comparison with effigies on coins and other portraits of the prince, whose strong features, wide-set eyes, and thick hair are clearly recognizable.


Hellenistic art

The classical culture of King Juba II is apparent in this portrait of the philhellenic king, which portrays him like a Hellenistic sovereign: beardless, short-haired, and wearing a royal headband. Hellenistic art also inspired the carefully modeled flesh and the idealization (which does not, however, overlook the subject's human qualities or ethnic group).


Excerpts source LOUVRE: Juba II (King of Mauretania, 25 BC-AD 23)

===

Juba II madness

_______ Juba II Numidian African ____________ Typical Euro-Roman
 -  -


The Numidian differs from the European in all the stereotypical hair and facial
features. The hair is thicker and "wilder." The eye is larger and rounder. The
cheek bones are higher and more protruding. The nose is flatter and broader
with nostrils tending to round/oval rather than oblong/slit shape. The lips are
thicker and more everted. King Juba II's antecedents thus seem the type of black
autochthonous to littoral North Africa.

 -

 -

It's not hard to imagine this Tuareg boy to have the same hair as the bust if styled right.

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...
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...
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melchior7
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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Interstingly an Biracial Arfican American caused a sensation in Barbary..

In fact, Adams claims that he excited "uncommon curiosity" among the Moors who captured him because they "had never seen [a white man] before" (229). At the same time, the scribe parenthetically notes that Adams was "a very dark man, with short curly black hair" (229).


And yet none of you HAS any problems with this? north Africans who had been capturing European slaves since they first invaded spain. Nearly a million European slaves sent to North Africa. And these Barbary Pirates who most likely worked for Turks, never saw a White person before and this guy was atctually mixed!!

Your deductive reasoning powers are trully astonishing!

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melchior7
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
I don't really consider Afro Asiatic languages African. Even its very name suggests that it is only part African.

It doesn't matter what you consider. What matters is
linguists' opinions. The super phyla of the Afrisian
macrophylum are conventionally broken down into

Omotic; location = Africa
Cushitic; location = Africa
Chadic; location = Africa
Egyptian; location = Africa
Semitic; location = Africa + SW Asia
Berber; location = Africa

Its easily seen the macrophylum is overwhelmingly
African with Hebrew and Arabic entering continental
Africa via SW Asian migrants and conquering invaders
facilitated by religious compulsion.
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
 -

You all know damn well, a narrow nose, light skin and straight hair are not tropically adapted traits. THEY COME FOM NON AFRICAN BLOOD!

Really? You obviously are totally unfamiliar with
current anthropologists studies on the stone age
osteo remains of the region. Those features already
existed when E1b bearing East Africans migrated
northward spreading their "genes" and "phenes."

Ever heard of clines?

Let me ask you a question. Many on here say that the early inhabitants of the Middle East were Africod or Veddoid in appearance which I believe has some truth. Now what massive migration or invaasion accounts for the current Eurasian/Semitic look which predominates in the area??


The answer is that it likely occured with the spread of Semitic langauges. [Big Grin]

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melchior7
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Yohooti

Nope! I know damn well that narrow noses have nothing to do with foreign ancestry as such noses are found as far south as Rwanda and Tanzania. I know damn well that light skin is NOT common among most Afrisian speakers in Africa at all not among most Somalis (excluding your Benadir cherry pic) as well as most in Sub-Sahara with those coastal North Africans having Eurasian ancestry from recent historical times that have nothing to do with the language family. As for straight hair, actually the hair is wavy and there are Africans who have such hair and do not speak Afrisian.

Peul woman of West Africa.


But it seems that straight noses occur mostly in the peripheral areas of Africa. In the Horn which is basically the gateway to Arabia and Asia. North Africa along the Mediterranean coast where people are known to have Eurasian mmarkers. And the Peul or Fulbe are known to carry high frequencies of R1. Coincidence??

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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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But it seems that straight noses occur mostly in the peripheral areas of Africa.

^^Complete nonsense. The Horn of Africa is no
more "peripheral" to Africa than Italy or Britain is to Europe.
In any event, narrow noses in Africa are a function of
climate and occur not only in higher altitude East African
zones but desert areas as well, plus the Sahara, due to the
dryness of the air, and arid areas or cooler coastal
zones as in large swathes of the Angolan region
where the Benguela Current yields cooler temperatures
like that of Baja California or coastal Peru.
Your bullsh1tt "peripheral" blatherings are meant to
sustain your bogus race model which is still a massive fail.

 -

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Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
But it seems that straight noses occur mostly in the peripheral areas of Africa.

^^Complete nonsense. The Horn of Africa is no
more "peripheral" to Africa than Italy or Britain is to Europe.
In any event, narrow noses in Africa are a function of
climate and occur not only in higher altitude East African
zones but desert areas as well, plus the Sahara, due to the
dryness of the air, and arid areas or cooler coastal
zones as in large swathes of the Angolan region
where the Benguela Current yields cooler temperatures
like that of Baja California or coastal Peru.
Your bullsh1tt "peripheral" blatherings are meant to
sustain your bogus race model which is still a massive fail.

 -

Consign strongly.
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melchior7
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^^Complete nonsense. The Horn of Africa is no
more "peripheral" to Africa than Italy or Britain is to Europe.
In any event, narrow noses in Africa are a function of climate and occur not only in higher altitude East African zones but desert areas as well, plus the Sahara, due to the dryness of the air, and arid areas or cooler coastal
zones as in large swathes of the Angolan region
where the Benguela Current yields cooler temperatures like that of Baja California or coastal Peru. Your bullsh1tt "peripheral" blatherings are meant to sustain your bogus race model which is still a massive fail.


Yeah right. You forget that the Horn is adjacent to the Arabian penininsula and nearly touches at one point. Shall I provide a map?

 -

You are going to tell me that caucasian traits developed indepently in the Horn when we know that that these same traits are predominate in neighboring Yemen and Arabia??? And we find eurasian genetic markers, not to mention the historical records. You ever hear of the Sabaens?

Previous studies of classic genetic markers and Y-chromosomal haplogroup distributions have shown that, in addition to the predominant sub-Saharan African substrate, the Ethiopian gene pool also embraces a considerable component indicative of admixture with populations of Arabian and/or Near Eastern origin (Cavalli-Sforza 1997; Passarino et al. 1998; Thomas et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2004; Luis et al. 2004).

Dude you are a seriously self deluded fool. SMH!

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the lioness,
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The narrow noses of the Kalahari:
 -

 -



San Bushman, Kalahari

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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No son, it seems you are just simply uneducated. Its obvious that the term "White" has a cultural meaning in this case, as a Mulatto man with dark hair and features veiws himself as white while his scribe sees him differently. At any rate this one passage/tale does not dismiss the enslavement of Europeans in Barbary.


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Interstingly an Biracial Arfican American caused a sensation in Barbary..

In fact, Adams claims that he excited "uncommon curiosity" among the Moors who captured him because they "had never seen [a white man] before" (229). At the same time, the scribe parenthetically notes that Adams was "a very dark man, with short curly black hair" (229).


And yet none of you HAS any problems with this? north Africans who had been capturing European slaves since they first invaded spain. Nearly a million European slaves sent to North Africa. And these Barbary Pirates who most likely worked for Turks, never saw a White person before and this guy was atctually mixed!!

Your deductive reasoning powers are trully astonishing!


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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
^^Complete nonsense. The Horn of Africa is no
more "peripheral" to Africa than Italy or Britain is to Europe.
In any event, narrow noses in Africa are a function of climate and occur not only in higher altitude East African zones but desert areas as well, plus the Sahara, due to the dryness of the air, and arid areas or cooler coastal
zones as in large swathes of the Angolan region
where the Benguela Current yields cooler temperatures like that of Baja California or coastal Peru. Your bullsh1tt "peripheral" blatherings are meant to sustain your bogus race model which is still a massive fail.


Yeah right. You forget that the Horn is adjacent to the Arabian penininsula and nearly touches at one point. Shall I provide a map?

 -

You are going to tell me that caucasian traits developed indepently in the Horn when we know that that these same traits are predominate in neighboring Yemen and Arabia??? And we find eurasian genetic markers, not to mention the historical records. You ever hear of the Sabaens?

Previous studies of classic genetic markers and Y-chromosomal haplogroup distributions have shown that, in addition to the predominant sub-Saharan African substrate, the Ethiopian gene pool also embraces a considerable component indicative of admixture with populations of Arabian and/or Near Eastern origin (Cavalli-Sforza 1997; Passarino et al. 1998; Thomas et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2004; Luis et al. 2004).

Dude you are a seriously self deluded fool. SMH!

lol.. hypocritical buffoon... Arabia being "close"
to East Africa does not make for narrow noses.
Your childish reasoning and little map only exposes
your shallowness and it does not help you duck
the fact that the noses in question are part of
the indigenous African makeup, as shown by credible
scholarly research.

Your "map" only exposes you, as does your reference
to "Sabens." All that has nothing to do with the
hard science showing that narrow noses are a function
primarily of the environment. Everyone knows there
has been gene flow into Africa. That was never at
issue. The question is whether physical features
such as narrow noses in Africa are due to outside gene flow.
They are not, and are rather primarily the product
of long-standing environmental factors. You still fail.

 -

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Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
^^Complete nonsense. The Horn of Africa is no
more "peripheral" to Africa than Italy or Britain is to Europe.
In any event, narrow noses in Africa are a function of climate and occur not only in higher altitude East African zones but desert areas as well, plus the Sahara, due to the dryness of the air, and arid areas or cooler coastal
zones as in large swathes of the Angolan region
where the Benguela Current yields cooler temperatures like that of Baja California or coastal Peru. Your bullsh1tt "peripheral" blatherings are meant to sustain your bogus race model which is still a massive fail.


Yeah right. You forget that the Horn is adjacent to the Arabian penininsula and nearly touches at one point. Shall I provide a map?

 -

You are going to tell me that caucasian traits developed indepently in the Horn when we know that that these same traits are predominate in neighboring Yemen and Arabia??? And we find eurasian genetic markers, not to mention the historical records. You ever hear of the Sabaens?

Previous studies of classic genetic markers and Y-chromosomal haplogroup distributions have shown that, in addition to the predominant sub-Saharan African substrate, the Ethiopian gene pool also embraces a considerable component indicative of admixture with populations of Arabian and/or Near Eastern origin (Cavalli-Sforza 1997; Passarino et al. 1998; Thomas et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2004; Luis et al. 2004).

Dude you are a seriously self deluded fool. SMH!

lol.. hypocritical buffoon... Arabia being "close"
to East Africa does not make for narrow noses.
Your childish reasoning and little map only exposes
your shallowness and it does not help you duck
the fact that the noses in question are part of
the indigenous African makeup, as shown by credible
scholarly research.

Your "map" only exposes you, as does your reference
to "Sabens." All that has nothing to do with the
hard science showing that narrow noses are a function
primarily of the environment. Everyone knows there
has been gene flow into Africa. That was never at
issue. The question is whether physical features
such as narrow noses in Africa are due to outside gene flow.
They are not, and are rather primarily the product
of long-standing environmental factors. You still fail.

 -

Cosign, he doesn't understand anthropology. He can't grasp that the environment and climate plays part in physical attributes. As he speaks of neighboring and peripheral. [Big Grin]
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Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
The narrow noses of the Kalahari:
 -

 -



San Bushman, Kalahari

How do you define their light complexion. Without narrow features.
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Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Still waiting for citations of the white, meaning pale white skinned aboriginal Africans who were the original speakers of the Berber languages and where they existed.

Please show me where I said the orginal Berber speakers were pale White?? I'm saying they looked like the do now.

 -

They never looked anything like west African Blacks

Yes, your hybrid negroes.
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Byron Bumper
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BEEP BEEP SCREECH KISS CUSS

Canaries page 3 page 4

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Djehuti
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Malcontent knows what the proto-Berbers originally looked like based on physical remains. And they definitely did not look "caucasian". LOL This is why he avoids the said issue of physical remains and opts for simple bullshitting. [Embarrassed]
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Trollkillah # Ish Gebor
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Bump
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Clyde Winters
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That would be interesting, indeed.


The American Naturalist
Coverage: 1867-2014 (Vols. 1-183)


 -

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