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Author Topic: Caucasian Berbers etc.
rahotep101
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Responding to Djehuti's post in the 'Egyptian Sexuality' thread, was off topic for that discussion. http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=005482;p=2

Concerning the original Berbers.

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

Djehuti

Whether the Sahara existed or not in the past has very little relevance. In today's North Africa, the difference in phenotype, culture and language with regard to Sub Sharan Africa, is quite conspicuous to most people.

As for phenotype, it's obvious North Africa especially in the coastal areas experienced much influx from Eurasia. But what about the rest?


Egyptians
 -
 -
 -

Libyan
 -

Tunisians
 -
 -

Algerians
 -

Moroccans
 -

As for languages, they all speak indigenous Afroasiatic (Egyptian & Berber) not including Arabic which is also spoken as a lingua franca in Muslim parts of Sub-Sahara, but indigenous Afroasiatic is also widespread south of the Sahara with Chadic, Cushitic, and Omotic.

As for culture, their culture is Islamic but so are many south of the Sahara.

Really what difference is there other than the people in the north having more foreign mixture than those south of the desert??

The rest are hardly represented by your cherrypicked sample, which in most cases probably demonstrates the result of relatively recent admixture with sub-saharans. Clearly Caucasian Berbers are found in the High Atlas Mountains of Morocco, who are quite far to the south as well as from the coast. Caucasian Tuaregs are found ranging as close to central Africa as Mali!
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rahotep101
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Morocco, Atlas Mountains:
 -

 -

 -

Tunisian Berbers:
 -

Ibrahim ag Bahanga, a Malian Tuareg leader:

 -

Algerian Berbers:
 -

Egyptian Copts:
 -


Egyptian Copts and Amazigh Berbers are the indigenous peoples of North Africa, and they are not blacks. Not originally, and not, for the most part, now. I'm sorry if that's inconvenient for your pan-Afican race myth but there you have it.

The fist of these unfortunates is a Libyan through Ancient Egyptian eyes. Not very dark, is he? These Libyans were not new arrivals from Europe, they have more distant (prehistoric) Caucasian ancestry.

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Calabooz '
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A few questions:


1)What makes you think sub-Saharan admixture is recent


2)What makes you think western Tuareg are "Caucasian:


3)What IS a "Caucasian"?

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Swenet
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quote:
Egyptian Copts and Amazigh Berbers are the indigenous peoples of North Africa, and they are not blacks. Not originally, and not, for the most part, now.
quote:
The whites at most consist of the people of Persia, Jibal, and Khurasan, the Greeks, Slavs, Franks, and Avars, and some few others, not very
numerous; the blacks include the Zanj, Ethiopians, the people of Fazzan, the Berbers, the Copts, and Nubians, the people of Zaghawa, Marw, Sind and India, Qamar and Dabila, China, and Masin... the islands in the seas between China and Africa are full of blacks, such as Ceylon, Kalah, Amal, Zabij, and their islands, as far as India, China, Kabul, and those shores.


Al Jahiz, medieval arab writer

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rahotep101
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^^^

Sounds like he didn't know what he was talking about, since he includes the Chinese as black, and since the Copts have certainly not changed since his era, being the subjects of religious apartheid.

I suppose that the black admixture is recent, by the way, since I hear tell from north Africans that it only occurred since the opening up of the Sahara for trade and slave raiding in relatively recent times.

If the berbers were originally black, then there should be blacks among such isolated groups as the Kybele.

I see this has been raised before:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/002572.html
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001783.html I will not re-invent the wheel.

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Mike111
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rahotep101 - What is it about Albinos like you, which makes it so difficult for you to separate fantasy from reality?

Wiki

Kabylia is a series of villages on the peaks[6000–900 ft. Alt.] of the eastern part of the Atlas (100 km east of Algiers) - In ancient times, Kabylia was a empty, rocky and wild area inhabited by various animals including bears, wild bors, wolfs, monkeys, eagles and even hayens. No Human settlement is mentioned in any histical books documenting the peaceful period between Numedians (east northern Africa approx. modern Algeria + Tunisia) with Rome throughan the alliance and dating back to 500 BC, against the Phoenicians.

It is not until the death of King Massinissa when his protege' nephew and General of Numedian Armies Jugurtha rebelled against Rome, from which he wanted separation, that the inaccessible highlands became inhabited. They are known as Jugurtha and followers' hiding, training and camping grounds.

These once forts of Jugurtha's warriors slowly became small villages with tradition of self-sustainability as hunters and farmers after the capture of Jugurtha.[Saluste, Jugurthinian Wars] - It is also where rebellion against Rome's attempt to administer Christianity was instigated, leading to the birth of the Protestant church under various denominations, amongst which Baptists, Donatists, Prespetarians, all of whome opposed Catholicism. for no less than three centuries, the relation between Roman Administration and the highlanders is one which can be characterized as a conflict of low intensity, through physical separation - The 1st controlled the coastal areas and the valleys and, the second the highlands.

Then late third century, the Geiserics also known as the Vandals, a Germanic Klan and sworn enemy of Rome, cornered in the Iberic(Spain) peninsula had to find a place and an ally to escape the Roman chase through the Gaule(France) and west-southwest. The snowy, cold and inaccessible highlands of Kabylia and its likewise enemy of Rome is thus a natural match. The population of the villages of Highlands, also known as Djurdjura, suddenly doubled as no less than 80 000 warriors with wife and children, i.e. families, filled the villages of Kabylia. Whereas the military forts were set on the lowers peaks closest to the sea known as Lower Kabylia, around the modern Algerian province of Bejia (Vgayet in Kabyle), the residential quarters in the higher lands of the Dhurdjura, also known as Great Kabylia. Thus, began the dense population of Kabylia.

Just days away by horse from Carthage, the Vandal-Numedian coalition successfully evicted Rome from North Africa. While this alliance earned the Numedians the Barbarians (Berberes fr.), by extension from their new allies, it also created the largest clan in the region. Kabylians to whom the term was exclusively assigned amongst north-Africans are indeed the largest ethnic group in North Africa. The term Berber, progressively was applied to all native north Africans, starting their invasion in 1871. Until then, and for centuries since the departure of Rome, North African is a vaste territory occupied by a confederation of various Peoples and city-States, without a central power. Of these the Libyans to the Mauritanians, the Moores(Morocco), the Tunisians, the Touaregs(Sahel/Desert), the Mzab, the Chenouas, the Chaouis and Kabylians.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh BTW - fantasy boy. These people are neither Black nor White nor Mediterraneans, they are MULATTOES - as are most North Africans.


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osirion
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quote:
Originally posted by rahotep101:
^^^

Sounds like he didn't know what he was talking about, since he includes the Chinese as black, and since the Copts have certainly not changed since his era, being the subjects of religious apartheid.

I suppose that the black admixture is recent, by the way, since I hear tell from north Africans that it only occurred since the opening up of the Sahara for trade and slave raiding in relatively recent times.

If the berbers were originally black, then there should be blacks among such isolated groups as the Kybele.

I see this has been raised before:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/002572.html
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001783.html I will not re-invent the wheel.

Slavery in North Africa was both Black and White. You Negroes and Albinos really just don't get it.
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the lioness is a guy IRL
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Kabyle berbers are Caucasoid:

 -

The afrocentrics however in denial are left with resorting to the view that the Kaybles are Germanic Vandals who moved into North Africa from Europe.

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Calabooz '
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Rahotep, what evidence do you have that sub-Saharan gene flow didn't occur earlier pre-Neolithic
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-Just Call Me Jari-
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Imagine this some unlearned ass saying one of the Most distinguished Islamic Scholars of his day did not know what he was talking about.

As far as China goes, Al Jahiz says the "People of" not the Chinese Specifically. Also it is more likely "Indo-China" not China proper. China's blacks are well documented and attested for by the Chinese themselves.

quote:
Originally posted by rahotep101:
^^^

Sounds like he didn't know what he was talking about, since he includes the Chinese as black, and since the Copts have certainly not changed since his era, being the subjects of religious apartheid.



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-Just Call Me Jari-
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quote:
Originally posted by rahotep101:
^^^


I suppose that the black admixture is recent, by the way, since I hear tell from north Africans that it only occurred since the opening up of the Sahara for trade and slave raiding in relatively recent times.

Speaking of Slavery..

OLUMBUS, Ohio – A new study suggests that a million or more European Christians were enslaved by Muslims in North Africa between 1530 and 1780 – a far greater number than had ever been estimated before.
Robert Davis

In a new book, Robert Davis, professor of history at Ohio State University, developed a unique methodology to calculate the number of white Christians who were enslaved along Africa’s Barbary Coast, arriving at much higher slave population estimates than any previous studies had found.

Most other accounts of slavery along the Barbary coast didn’t try to estimate the number of slaves, or only looked at the number of slaves in particular cities, Davis said. Most previously estimated slave counts have thus tended to be in the thousands, or at most in the tens of thousands. Davis, by contrast, has calculated that between 1 million and 1.25 million European Christians were captured and forced to work in North Africa from the 16th to 18th centuries.

Davis’s new estimates appear in the book Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800 (Palgrave Macmillan).
“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland.”

“Much of what has been written gives the impression that there were not many slaves and minimizes the impact that slavery had on Europe,” Davis said. “Most accounts only look at slavery in one place, or only for a short period of time. But when you take a broader, longer view, the massive scope of this slavery and its powerful impact become clear.”

Davis said it is useful to compare this Mediterranean slavery to the Atlantic slave trade that brought black Africans to the Americas. Over the course of four centuries, the Atlantic slave trade was much larger – about 10 to 12 million black Africans were brought to the Americas. But from 1500 to 1650, when trans-Atlantic slaving was still in its infancy, more white Christian slaves were probably taken to Barbary than black African slaves to the Americas, according to Davis.

“One of the things that both the public and many scholars have tended to take as given is that slavery was always racial in nature – that only blacks have been slaves. But that is not true,” Davis said. “We cannot think of slavery as something that only white people did to black people.”

During the time period Davis studied, it was religion and ethnicity, as much as race, that determined who became slaves.

“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland,” he said.

Pirates (called corsairs) from cities along the Barbary Coast in north Africa – cities such as Tunis and Algiers – would raid ships in the Mediterranean and Atlantic, as well as seaside villages to capture men, women and children. The impact of these attacks were devastating – France, England, and Spain each lost thousands of ships, and long stretches of the Spanish and Italian coasts were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants. At its peak, the destruction and depopulation of some areas probably exceeded what European slavers would later inflict on the African interior.

Although hundreds of thousands of Christian slaves were taken from Mediterranean countries, Davis noted, the effects of Muslim slave raids was felt much further away: it appears, for example, that through most of the 17th century the English lost at least 400 sailors a year to the slavers.

Even Americans were not immune. For example, one American slave reported that 130 other American seamen had been enslaved by the Algerians in the Mediterranean and Atlantic just between 1785 and 1793.

Davis said the vast scope of slavery in North Africa has been ignored and minimized, in large part because it is on no one’s agenda to discuss what happened.

The enslavement of Europeans doesn’t fit the general theme of European world conquest and colonialism that is central to scholarship on the early modern era, he said. Many of the countries that were victims of slavery, such as France and Spain, would later conquer and colonize the areas of North Africa where their citizens were once held as slaves. Maybe because of this history, Western scholars have thought of the Europeans primarily as “evil colonialists” and not as the victims they sometimes were, Davis said.

Davis said another reason that Mediterranean slavery has been ignored or minimized has been that there have not been good estimates of the total number of people enslaved. People of the time – both Europeans and the Barbary Coast slave owners – did not keep detailed, trustworthy records of the number of slaves. In contrast, there are extensive records that document the number of Africans brought to the Americas as slaves.

So Davis developed a new methodology to come up with reasonable estimates of the number of slaves along the Barbary Coast. Davis found the best records available indicating how many slaves were at a particular location at a single time. He then estimated how many new slaves it would take to replace slaves as they died, escaped or were ransomed.

“The only way I could come up with hard numbers is to turn the whole problem upside down – figure out how many slaves they would have to capture to maintain a certain level,” he said. “It is not the best way to make population estimates, but it is the only way with the limited records available.”

Putting together such sources of attrition as deaths, escapes, ransomings, and conversions, Davis calculated that about one-fourth of slaves had to be replaced each year to keep the slave population stable, as it apparently was between 1580 and 1680. That meant about 8,500 new slaves had to be captured each year. Overall, this suggests nearly a million slaves would have been taken captive during this period. Using the same methodology, Davis has estimated as many as 475,000 additional slaves were taken in the previous and following centuries.

The result is that between 1530 and 1780 there were almost certainly 1 million and quite possibly as many as 1.25 million white, European Christians enslaved by the Muslims of the Barbary Coast.

Davis said his research into the treatment of these slaves suggests that, for most of them, their lives were every bit as difficult as that of slaves in America.

“As far as daily living conditions, the Mediterranean slaves certainly didn’t have it better,” he said.

While African slaves did grueling labor on sugar and cotton plantations in the Americas, European Christian slaves were often worked just as hard and as lethally – in quarries, in heavy construction, and above all rowing the corsair galleys themselves.

Davis said his findings suggest that this invisible slavery of European Christians deserves more attention from scholars.

“We have lost the sense of how large enslavement could loom for those who lived around the Mediterranean and the threat they were under,” he said. “Slaves were still slaves, whether they are black or white, and whether they suffered in America or North Africa


Im have 100% respect for this man Davis for speaking the Truth, facts that the historical academia tries to ignore. The History books should reflect this. It pisses me off when I read about Nubia or West African kingdoms they always talk about the main export was Slaves and Gold.

It also helps explain this..

 -

 -

 -

 -
^^^
Euro-Arab Mongrels of the result of slavery..

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Swenet
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quote:
As far as China goes, Al0Jahiz says the "People of" not the Chinese Specifically. Also it is more likely "Indo-China" not China proper. China's blacks are well documented and attested for by the Chinese themselves.
Exactly.
I didn't point that out myself since I don't want to waste my time dealing with Rahotep's unsourced ass directly. Don't know why he bothered making a thread, if he knows that standing his ground and defending his positions doesn't come natural to him, to put it nicely.

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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^^^^
Im not wasting my time on Rahotep anymore either I can care less what he believes or what he has to say. If he had an iota of Knowledge he would know about the Chinese own writing about Blacks native to Asia. Im not interested in uneducated Ignorants who constantly rehash and repost their B.S opinion but cant back it up. Im more interested in people who want to study Africana or General History. If you notice Im not following him around anymore but I had to point out his attempt to insult one of Islam's most distinguished Scholars.

All he does is talk out his ass waiting for folks to smell his ****.

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Swenet
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quote:
All he does is talk out his ass waiting for folks to smell his ****.
Lol.
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the lioness is a guy IRL
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It also helps explain this..
=========

There are ancient writings which describe the Berbers as blonde/red haired and white skinned long before the slave trade.

Also ancient rock art -

 -

The Berbers were Caucasoid, as are their modern descendants. The pure-blooded ones in the isolated mountains of algeria are still pale skinned and blonde.

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Mike111
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^He,he, gotta love the Albinos, they are the scavengers of every bullsh1t ever thought up.

Earth to cassiterides, that has already been debunked, move on.

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Child Of The KING
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cassiterides

I agree with Mike..That pic has already been debunked. Read these threads:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=004397


http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=004097

Hope this helps.

Peace

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Brada-Anansi
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Guys he doesn't care as he himself posted a lot of out right lies,misquotes and omissions his only purpose here is to be a Fuk-With.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by cassiterides:
It also helps explain this..
=========

There are ancient writings which describe the Berbers as blonde/red haired and white skinned long before the slave trade.

Also ancient rock art -

 -

The Berbers were Caucasoid, as are their modern descendants. The pure-blooded ones in the isolated mountains of algeria are still pale skinned and blonde.

Did they originate in Algeria or were they migrate there from Canaan a few thousand years ago?
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Child Of The KING
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Brada-Anansi

Thanks for the Headsup Brada.

If cassiterides really posted lies that he KNOWS are false, then really we should not be wasting our time.

What also bothers me about cassi is that he asked for proof that the Natufians were "Negroes", and when he got the info he decided to ignore the thread completly. It shows these racists have an agenda and don't care too much for facts. Only things that agree with there agenda.

Peace

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Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by cassiterides:
It also helps explain this..
=========

There are ancient writings which describe the Berbers as blonde/red haired and white skinned long before the slave trade.

Also ancient rock art -

 -

The Berbers were Caucasoid, as are their modern descendants. The pure-blooded ones in the isolated mountains of algeria are still pale skinned and blonde.

You and your nazi website: blah blah blah....


The University of Bristol


A controversial film about the rock art of
the Sahara Desert opened the Icronos
International Archaeology Film Festival of
Bordeaux on 24 October last year.
Made by Bristol anthropologist,
Dr Jeremy Keenan, The Lesser Gods is
a powerful documentary about the
expedition of French archaeologist
Henry Lhote to the Tassili-n-Ajjer
mountains of southern Algeria. The new
film, which includes footage from the
original expedition in 1956, shows that
several of the discoveries were actually
fraudulent, and that the rock art is much
less spectacular than Lhote claimed at
the time.

http://www.alumni.bris.ac.uk/publications/nonesuch/winter07.pdf


More grounded criticism of Lhote has been for his research techniques. The Journal of North African Studies – an academic periodical affiliated with the University of East Anglia’s Saharan Studies Programme – alleges that many of Lhote’s findings “were misleading,” that “a number of the paintings were faked”, and that “the copying process was fraught with errors.”

http://heritage-key.com/world/henri-lhote-and-tassili-frescoes


Anyway...


Frigi et al.

Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra- Saharan Africa.

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Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by KING:
Brada-Anansi

Thanks for the Headsup Brada.

If cassiterides really posted lies that he KNOWS are false, then really we should not be wasting our time.

What also bothers me about cassi is that he asked for proof that the Natufians were "Negroes", and when he got the info he decided to ignore the thread completly. It shows these racists have an agenda and don't care too much for facts. Only things that agree with there agenda.

Peace

Cosign strongly!
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by KING:
cassiterides

I agree with Mike..That pic has already been debunked. Read these threads:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=004397


http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=004097

Hope this helps.

Peace

I hate when people say something is debunked and then refer to a thread with multiple pages where people are debating. If you think something is debunked then copy and paste the particular post where -you think- something was debunked.
If you can't do this you don't have a handle on how something was resolved or wasn't.

In this case the issue is not resolved.
It is hearsay that some of the Lahore team illustrations were fake. Some probably were and others weren't. The fake ones seemed to center around Lahote's aliens concept.
The Tassili ladies in particular do not fall into that category. There is no quote that points specifically to this item being in particular a fake.
People on that thread tried to play expert saying it is not in the style of other Tassili paintings but they were ignorant of the fact that there are several time periods involved, different preiods of Tassili art separated by hundreds of years.

Is the illustration of the Tassili ladies a fake? Maybe maybe not


lioness productions

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Child Of The KING
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the lioness

Sigh [Frown]

This is from another Thread courtesy of alTakruri:


quote:


Originally posted by AlTakruri

In 1966 Basil Davidson wrote the following caption
for the quartet of figures posted on ES AE&E as "The
Tassili Ladies, 3000 BC Algeria."

WOMEN RIDERS mounted on horned oxen wear
capes and hairdos astonishingly modern in
style. They are part of a scene which shows
a whole community moving to another camp.

Underscoring and bolding by me.

We now know why the clothes and 'dos evoke anachronism.

 -

Women mounted on horned oxen. An entire community moves to a new region.
Frescoes of Tassili N'Ajjer, Algeria. 2nd mill. BCE.
Location :Musee de l'Homme, Paris, France
Photo Credit : Erich Lessing / Art Resource, NY
Image Reference : ART112955

From This thread:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=004397

Peace

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by KING:
[QB] the lioness

Sigh [Frown]

This is from another Thread courtesy of alTakruri:


quote:


Originally posted by AlTakruri


We now know why the clothes and 'dos evoke anachronism.


This you call a debunking?

"we all know why"
is not a debunking

Also I don't see what is so "astonishingly modern" about them,
please explain to me what's "astonishingly modern" about them

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Mike111
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King, is it now dawning on you that cassiterides is merely Lioness jr. The one and only is still troll par-excellence.
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Mike111

Nothing but truth coming from your post.

What can I say, I tried to help her...but sadly she would rather think she is winning a debate, instead of discussiing things with people who want to help her.

Hopefully someone else will try because she all but ignored my post and posted a Blurd from alTakruri ignoring the part about Basil Davidson.

Keep trying to reach these people anyways.

Peace

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Calabooz ':

A few questions:


1)What makes you think sub-Saharan admixture is recent


2)What makes you think western Tuareg are "Caucasian:


3)What IS a "Caucasian"?

Excellent questions. So where are the answers??
quote:
Rahotep, what evidence do you have that sub-Saharan gene flow didn't occur earlier pre-Neolithic
Yeah, especially since during the Holocene the Sahara didn't even exist!! Why does the idiot insist on keeping North Africa seperate from so-called "Sub-Sahara" yet want to tie with Europe which is on another continent??
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anguishofbeing
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
I hate when people say something is debunked and then refer to a thread with multiple pages where people are debating.

Lmao @ this fool! You do the same thing when you spam shyt from nizkor site not knowing what the hell you are doing! Remember?
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Joe Roganjosh
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^ This kissarse negro is mentally dislocated. He should be trolling on Stormfront, not here.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by castratedhide:

It also helps explain this..
=========

There are ancient writings which describe the Berbers as blonde/red haired and white skinned long before the slave trade.

Also ancient rock art -

 -

The Berbers were Caucasoid, as are their modern descendants. The pure-blooded ones in the isolated mountains of algeria are still pale skinned and blonde.

First of all, the picture above was proven to be a fake.

Second, the picture does not even depict Berber but FULANI as seen by their hairdos. Why would a supposedly white people be wearing black African hairstyles??

 -

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the lioness is a guy IRL
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What IS a "Caucasian"?
====

One of the three prime races, alongside Negroids, and Mongoloids.

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anguishofbeing
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^ oh no, not this shyt again. [Roll Eyes]
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Did they originate in Algeria or were they migrate there from Canaan a few thousand years ago?
======

They migrated into North Africa from Europe. Genetics has linked the Berbers most closely to south european populations.

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Djehuti
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^ Ignoring the castrated one above...

quote:
Originally posted by Dahoslips 101:

Concerning the original Berbers...

The rest are hardly represented by your cherrypicked sample, which in most cases probably demonstrates the result of relatively recent admixture with sub-saharans. Clearly Caucasian Berbers are found in the High Atlas Mountains of Morocco, who are quite far to the south as well as from the coast. Caucasian Tuaregs are found ranging as close to central Africa as Mali!

Are you daft??! I'm beginning to think you are! Most of your so-called "caucasian" Berbers are people who look what would be called 'Mulattoes' and only a few groups display true 'whiteness' with blonde or red hair. The rest who live away from the coasts are all black. You speak of "recent sub-saharan" admixture, yet you never bothered with my response which states the Sahara did not even exist during the Holocene or that most of these lineages date to that time period! While it is the Euasian lineages that are recent!!

Are you aware that the predominant Y lineage among Berbers is E1b1b which is said to have entered North Africa during the mesolithic from Sub-Sahara? Even among some Berber like the Tuareg there exists older PN2 lineages like E2. What do you call this??

Are you aware that the oldest remains of North Africans like the so-called Mechta and Afalou types all possess "negroid" affinities?

And then you have this depiction by Romans of non-Phoenician indigenous peoples of Carthage (Tunisia).

 -

quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

"We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations."

"The Berber tribes were far removed from each other and this was one reason why Morocco was often invaded".....

http://www.marokko-info.nl/english/history-of-morocco


Traveling spirit masters: Moroccan Gnawa trance and music in the global marketplace.

By Deborah Anne Kapchan

Wesleyan University Press, 2007, page 19.


"not all of the black african population are gnawa."


Frigi et al.

Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra- Saharan Africa.

So all this begs the question, which group is truly indigenous to Africa and which are more recent? Black people or whites??

It is an easy and simple answer to those with well functioning brains barred the castrated minds.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by castratedhide:
[qb]
It also helps explain this..
=========

There are ancient writings which describe the Berbers as blonde/red haired and white skinned long before the slave trade.

Also ancient rock art -

 -

The Berbers were Caucasoid, as are their modern descendants. The pure-blooded ones in the isolated mountains of algeria are still pale skinned and blonde.

First of all, the picture above was proven to be a fake.


why do you say stuff like this with no proof of this picture in particular being a fake?

Don't try to link a thread as proof, show us anywhere published saying that the Tassili Ladies in particular is a "fake"

I am not fully convinced that the Tassili ladies is legitimate -not because it has been proven fake. it has not, but because we have never seen a photo of the actual section of wall that supposedly had this image on it. In my opinion it is not strong enough evidence to try to prove something unless supported by an actual photo.
It's like saying there is a figure of a king on the Qustul incense burner when, if you look at the actual photo there is not, it is a guess.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by KING:
Mike111

Nothing but truth coming from your post.

What can I say, I tried to help her...but sadly she would rather think she is winning a debate, instead of discussiing things with people who want to help her.

Hopefully someone else will try because she all but ignored my post and posted a Blurd from alTakruri ignoring the part about Basil Davidson.

Keep trying to reach these people anyways.

Peace

I didn't ignore anything. Basil Davidson's opinion was that the
Tassili Ladies was painted in 3000 BC."

So what is your point???


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
.

Tassili paintings and engravings, like those of other rock art areas in the Sahara, are commonly divided into at least four chronological periods based on style and content. These are:

1)an archaic tradition depicting wild animals whose antiquity is unknown but certainly goes back well before 4500 B.C.

2) a so-called bovidian tradition, which corresponds to the arrival of cattle in North Africa between 4500 and 4000 B.C.

3) a "horse" tradition, which corresponds to the appearance of horses in the North African archaeological record from about 2000 B.C. onward

4) a "camel" tradition, which emerges around the time of Christ when these animals first appear in North Africa.

Engravings of animals such as the extinct giant buffalo are among the earliest works, followed later by paintings in which color is used to depict humans and animals with striking naturalism. In the last period, chariots, shields, and camels appear in the rock paintings.

While these traditions are successive, it does appear that earlier ones continued on for varying lengths of time after the appearance of later ones. Two important qualifiers need to be made. First, many scholars have recently questioned a pan-Saharan chronology and there is a move away from grandiose chronological schemes to concentrating more on understanding regional chronological variability. Second, the Sahara, given its vast size and various political complications, is still an inadequately researched area in terms of rock art and very few dates exist. As more work is done and techniques for dating advance, it is likely that this four-period dating scheme will be modified in particular regions and that more will be learned about the origins and demise of Saharan rock art.

Department of Arts of Africa, Oceania, and the Americas, The Metropolitan Museum of Art

Department of Arts of Africa, Oceania, and the Americas. "African Rock Art: Tassili-n-Ajjer (?8000 B.C.–?) ". In Heilbrunn Timeline of Art History. New York: The Metropolitan Museum of Art, 2000–. http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/tass/hd_tass.htm (October 2000)


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Child Of The KING
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the lioness

you speak too boldly for a person who has not backed up ANYTHING she has said and then Asks people for proof.

Read Basil again:

WOMEN RIDERS mounted on horned oxen wear
capes and hairdos astonishingly modern in
style.
They are part of a scene which shows
a whole community moving to another camp.

Basil is Saying that they have hairstyles like the Fulani people who they were emulating only the Fula and NOT the berbers wear those styles.

Peace

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by KING:
the lioness

you speak too boldly for a person who has not backed up ANYTHING she has said and then Asks people for proof.

Read Basil again:

WOMEN RIDERS mounted on horned oxen wear
capes and hairdos astonishingly modern in
style.
They are part of a scene which shows
a whole community moving to another camp.

Basil is Saying that they have hairstyles like the Fulani people who they were emulating only the Fula and NOT the berbers wear those styles.

Peace

You read Basil again he said nothing about the Fula. You must think Basil Davidson is Djehuti.

Here is the exact quote:

"The
Tassili Ladies, 3000 BC Algeria."


If he meant "astonishingly modern" meant 20th century fake then he would not have captioned
"3000 BC Algeria"

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Child Of The KING
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the lioness

Wow you really need to take a deep breath and breathe. Really what are you trying to prove?

1st: I NEVER said Basil said it was Fulani. I TOLD YOU that it was Fulani hairstyles and not Berbers

2nd: Who are you kidding??Really "Girl" your not fooling anyone he stated that it had MODERN HAIRSTYLES...Whether he said 3000bc or not is beyond the point since he was just going by what people claimed the rock art as and the people who found it.

Face it lioness You were wrong about the Fake and you have not shown any evidence of it being real.

Ask yourself this lioness...If it is real, why are these "White" Berbers wearing a Fulani Hairstyle...Maybe if you stop trying to win a debate and discuss as a normal person you would not be trying to defend something as dumb as that painting.

Peace

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by KING:


1st: I NEVER said Basil said it was Fulani.


quote:
Originally posted by KING:

Read Basil again:

Basil is Saying that they have hairstyles like the Fulani people

____^^^^^don't smoke reefer when stepping to the lioness

 -  -

to say that the Tassili Ladies are not wearing hats or headgear of some sort, to say that these are Fulani hairstyles is complete speculation on Mr. Djehuti's part. In my opinion it's wrong.

There is no expert on Algerian rock art who has said the Tassili Ladies have a Fulani hairstyle or even that their hair is what is represented by those shapes.
It's wrong they are headgear not hats and their color matches colors on their capes.
How many times have I told you check what Djehuti says, he makes up stuff.

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the lioness

Bahahahahaha

thats it?? Thats your comeback for being proven WRONG about what Basil said about the painting having Modern hairstyles??

Read it again and this time soak it in. What that quote is SAYING is that BAsil said that the Algeria Painting Had Modern Hairstyles I ADDED the Like Fulani because they are the ONLY people who wear those hairstyles.

So after being proven wrong about what BAsil said, you pick a quote from me, ignoring the rest of my quote and then scream as if you won something??

lioness you are showing yourself to be a classless indvidual "Girl" Stop nitpicking and prove your point or stop posting.

What stands UNREFUTED: Basil said the painting had MODERN HAIRSTYLES...The only people with those hairstyles are the FULANI. Grow up.

Peace

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the lioness

why should I believe you over Basil who claimed they had modern Hairstyles and capes?

Who are You??WHats your credentials?? You like to speak like your in some movie but that won't fly with me..Only FACTS work on me and you have shown none.

I respect you lioness but really your ego is growing out of control..Relax. [Wink]

Peace

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

And then you have this depiction by Romans of non-Phoenician indigenous peoples of Carthage (Tunisia).

 -


Djehuti, how the hell do you know these people were "non-Phoenician" You call them indigenous peoples of Carthage (Tunisia).
Carthage was founded by Phoenicians. They were not indigenous to North Africa. They came from Caanan.
Indigenous people living in the same area would not be called Carthaginians unless they assimilated into Carthage.

Here are some Lebanese for comparison:

 -


 -

 -

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by KING:
[QB] the lioness

Sigh [Frown]

This is from another Thread courtesy of alTakruri:


[QUOTE]

Originally posted by AlTakruri

In 1966 Basil Davidson wrote the following caption
for the quartet of figures posted on ES AE&E as "The
Tassili Ladies, 3000 BC Algeria."

WOMEN RIDERS mounted on horned oxen wear
capes and hairdos astonishingly modern in
style. They are part of a scene which shows
a whole community moving to another camp.

Underscoring and bolding by me.

We now know why the clothes and 'dos evoke anachronism.

KING did you notice that

"The
Tassili Ladies, 3000 BC Algeria."

is quoted above with quotation marks

but "astonishingly modern" above is not in quotation marks?

What you fail to observe is that if the man said these styles looked "astonishingly modern" no where did he say that they WERE astonishingly modern. He says "looked"

BUT FURTHER HE DATED THE ITEM 3000 BC

- a little point you failed to see. bottom line here

Did he call it a modern fake? NO,

you can stop dancing now

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the lioness

Sigh [Frown]

You just don't get it..The person "Dancing" and "Prancing" is you "Girl".

What he said speaks for everyone but you because it does not aline with your arguement. You can't refute it nor will I allow you to speak around it.

What Basil said is clear and I have no CLUE where you got LOOK FROM? Because it is not stated in the quote of Basil at all. Why are you putting your own words into things? Is this the reason why people call you lyinass? You twist and outright lie to prove your point?

Please show the forum in the quote I posted the word "Look"

Peace

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Brada-Anansi
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 -

 -
Beirut Hariri rally nope not really matching

 -
Labanon MarcelKhalife nope not really matching

 -
Nope who and where-evea this pic was taken not really matching lighting conditions permitting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrEEwKMLdVs&feature=related
Check out the battle scene involving Canaanites and Kemites.

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osirion
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by KING:


1st: I NEVER said Basil said it was Fulani.


quote:
Originally posted by KING:

Read Basil again:

Basil is Saying that they have hairstyles like the Fulani people

____^^^^^don't smoke reefer when stepping to the lioness

 -  -

to say that the Tassili Ladies are not wearing hats or headgear of some sort, to say that these are Fulani hairstyles is complete speculation on Mr. Djehuti's part. In my opinion it's wrong.

There is no expert on Algerian rock art who has said the Tassili Ladies have a Fulani hairstyle or even that their hair is what is represented by those shapes.
It's wrong they are headgear not hats and their color matches colors on their capes.
How many times have I told you check what Djehuti says, he makes up stuff.

They look entirely fake.
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Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Ignoring the castrated one above...

quote:
Originally posted by Dahoslips 101:

Concerning the original Berbers...

The rest are hardly represented by your cherrypicked sample, which in most cases probably demonstrates the result of relatively recent admixture with sub-saharans. Clearly Caucasian Berbers are found in the High Atlas Mountains of Morocco, who are quite far to the south as well as from the coast. Caucasian Tuaregs are found ranging as close to central Africa as Mali!

Are you daft??! I'm beginning to think you are! Most of your so-called "caucasian" Berbers are people who look what would be called 'Mulattoes' and only a few groups display true 'whiteness' with blonde or red hair. The rest who live away from the coasts are all black. You speak of "recent sub-saharan" admixture, yet you never bothered with my response which states the Sahara did not even exist during the Holocene or that most of these lineages date to that time period! While it is the Euasian lineages that are recent!!

Are you aware that the predominant Y lineage among Berbers is E1b1b which is said to have entered North Africa during the mesolithic from Sub-Sahara? Even among some Berber like the Tuareg there exists older PN2 lineages like E2. What do you call this??

Are you aware that the oldest remains of North Africans like the so-called Mechta and Afalou types all possess "negroid" affinities?

And then you have this depiction by Romans of non-Phoenician indigenous peoples of Carthage (Tunisia).

...

quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

"We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations."

"The Berber tribes were far removed from each other and this was one reason why Morocco was often invaded".....

http://www.marokko-info.nl/english/history-of-morocco


Traveling spirit masters: Moroccan Gnawa trance and music in the global marketplace.

By Deborah Anne Kapchan

Wesleyan University Press, 2007, page 19.


"not all of the black african population are gnawa."


Frigi et al.

Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra- Saharan Africa.

So all this begs the question, which group is truly indigenous to Africa and which are more recent? Black people or whites??

It is an easy and simple answer to those with well functioning brains barred the castrated minds.

I'd say, the Berber gene E-M81 is a descendant from the Northeast African parent clade E-M78, E-M78 is a descendant from the East African parent clade E-M35.

*Many East Africans have so-called caucasian features.

As was stated prior by the sources, Northwestern Berbers carry admixture due to many invasions. Whereas the Berbers from the Siwa carry the least admixture. Which on its turn show a supra- Saharan evolution.


A history of the Maghrib in the Islamic period

By Jamil M. Abun-Nasr

Cambridge University Press, 1987 - page 5.


..."it is important to bear in mind that over the centuries the Maghreb has been a melting-pot of many other ethnic groups and cultures"


"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration
of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking
populations whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by
the African M35/81 biallelic marker.

Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by
the African M35/81 biallelic marker.

Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."

It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).

To claim Berbers as europeans/ whites is just another crazy claim.

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Posts: 9361 | From: pAsidaw SIGILLUM SECRETUM | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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Posts: 9361 | From: pAsidaw SIGILLUM SECRETUM | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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