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I think that the Afro-American scholarship (like as many types of scholarship) seems to have a problem with the Berbers. Someone asked me if the Berber (culture) was already in existence at the time of Roman emperor Septimus Severus.
I think he called it intentionally "culture". This key word is important in the Afrocentric speech. It present the Afro-Americans as a specific nation among the white ras, while the Berbers is nothing! The Berberness is a culture, or a language! So, it doesn't exist as a ethnic history, and should be omitted, and be considered as inexistent!
I found also another example: "In an interview with an American historian who holds that the Roman emperor Septimius Severus was black, a journalist recently asked whether he wasn't Berber, and received the simple answer, 'What's that?'" (The Berbers - Pagina 21 -- Michael Brett, Elizabeth Fentress - 1997)
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Afro-American scholarschip: is the scholarship in America (US) that aims to bolden the African history and civilization in the world. Afro-centric speech: Is the speech adopted by the Afrocentric scholarship and its followers.
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Mazigh - Certainly you must know that in the beginning; the North African people that we now call "Berber" people, were a pure-black African people who migrated from the south. We know that they existed, but we don't know the specifics of their culture.
The modern mixed-race people that you are talking about CAN NOT HAVE A SPECIFIC CULTURE FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT THEY HAVE "NO" UNIQUE HOME GROWN CULTURE!
How would you separate the Roman influence on these people?
How would you separate the Alan influence on these people?
How would you separate the Gothic influence on these people?
How would you separate the Arab influence on these people?
How would you separate the Turkic influence on these people?
How would you separate the French influence on these people?
How would you separate the Italian influence on these people?
How would you separate the British influence on these people?
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Mazigh - Certainly you must know that in the beginning; the North African people that we now call "Berber" people, were a pure-black African people who migrated from the south.
^They were pure black but they never migrated from the south. Berber (which means foreign) were always in the sahara, north, and parts of west africa. Berber and Barbar means the same thing. It just mean foreign which could be a foreign people or foreign language.
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There is no such thing as a monolithic African American block of scholarship. The only college or university in the USA to that teaches Berber language is Howard University.
I have already posted Asante on "Berbers" not so long along. If I can ever find it (amazing how GOOGLE loses so much of what I write) I will repost it here in this thread for the trouble maker.
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posted
Mike is not only afro-centric, but has also a psychic problem, sorry
Afro-centric must not be unjustified or unfounded to be afrocentric. As it begins on the black colour as a seperate community, it has then to be considered as afrocentrism. Al takruri, it has not to be a university, but a type of ideas with commun thoughts.
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^Afrocentrism is pseudo-history; that is, African American scholarship. Afrocentrism and the Civil Rights Movement are joined at the hips. It also should be noted, Afrocentrism is unique to American Negroes.
Afrocentrism is the Black man's answer to White and Asian dominant presence in history, but even so, a response to white domination in the political, geo-political and economic arena.
In Afrocentrism, all non-white people MUST be assimilated into Black history. Afrocentrism goes about accomplishing this with, what I term, Trojan horse --"Black."
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quote:Originally posted by Gigantic: Afrocentrism is the Black man's answer to White and Asian dominant presence in history, but even so, a response to white domination in the political, geo-political and economic arena.
^Excuse me. Asian dominant presence?! Since when Afrocentrism is out to challenge Asian presence.
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The Afrocentric appetite is not easily satiated. Have you ever heard the statement, "I want it all"? I suggest you engage Dr. Clyde Winters in a discourse on his "Black Chinese" innovation.
BTW, when I said Asian, I meant the Levant.
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: ^Excuse me. Asian dominant presence?! Since when Afrocentrism is out to challenge Asian presence.
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: Mike is not only afro-centric, but has also a psychic problem, sorry
Nice dig Mazigh, but you didn't ANSWER THE QUESTION!
The modern mixed-race people that you are talking about (the Amaizing or whatever) CAN NOT HAVE A SPECIFIC CULTURE FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT THEY HAVE "NO" UNIQUE HOME GROWN CULTURE!
How would you separate the Roman influence on these people?
How would you separate the Alan influence on these people?
How would you separate the Gothic influence on these people?
How would you separate the Arab influence on these people?
How would you separate the Turkic influence on these people?
How would you separate the French influence on these people?
How would you separate the Italian influence on these people?
How would you separate the British influence on these people?Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: How about the Guanches of the Canary Islands, Mike?
Mazigh - You truly are simple-minded. You think that because it is said in Wiki, that the Berbers welcomed them - that makes them Berbers?
And WHICH Berbers are supposed to have welcomed them, the REAL Black Berbers, or the mixed-race Amaizing?
BTW- You DO understand that the Guanches are NOT original OR ancient to those Islands. Your questions make me wonder if that is clear to you.
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Nope, you can't separate Howard University from what you call "Afro-American" scholarship because it is the first name in Black American scholarship and contrary to your false claim has no problem with Berbers as it is the only post secondary school in the USA to teach Berber language.
On top of that you haven't a clue about Afrocentricity or what it says about "Berbers" even though what follows below was read by you back in April when it was first posted you still continue spewing malevolence against black people. Your obvious aim is to widen the gap between Berber and Black making any positive contact between the two an impossibility.
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Molefi Kete Asante is the de facto founder of modern Afrocentricity. His groundbreaking work, Afrocentricity, and his position at Temple University's Department of African American studies catapulted him to top rank of Afrocentric cultural philosophy.
In his 2007 work, The History of Africa: the quest for eternal harmony, Asante addresses the issue of North Africa's people and their affinities which I present below witholding my criticism of Asante's methodology.
quote: ... popular historian J. D. Fage ... criticized the racist historian C. G. Seligman's Races of Africa, in which Seligman went so far as to speak of northern Africans as "Europeans," [although] his own work lacks sensitivity to the African reality as well. While Fage noted that Seligman used this description because he believed that "white" was superior to "black," his own discussion of race and Africa is not without difficulty. For him the question of the northern Africans is also problematic because "there is no satisfactory general name in modern use for the men of Caucasoid stock who do not live in Asia or Europe as most Caucasoids do, but who are native to Africa in that they have been resident there for many thousands of years" (Fage 1978, p. 6).
Prior to 2000 BCE all of the people of northern Africa were black in color. Furthermore, before the seventh century CE, North Africa was peopled mainly by black people and people who migrated from Europe in the ninth century BCE. There were no large populations of Arabs in North Africa before the rise of Islam and the religious movement that gave rise to the fervor for making converts of other people. Actually the Amazighs (so-called Berber people) have been in Africa much longer than the Arabs, but certainly not as long as the indigenous Africans. The Amazighs are culturally Africans and have not been interested in the racial politics of Europeans who claim that the Amazighs, because of skin color, are Europeans. The question of race in Africa is not the same question as in America or Europe. A person whose ancestors have been in Africa for several thousand years is clearly African in behavior, attitude, and responce to environment. Blackness is a color but it is also an experience, that is, a cultural and historical experience related to social practice, language, and cultural expressions.
In the early twenty-first century there are about 3 million Amazighs, which is not a large population out of approximately a billion people on the continent of Africa, yet a distinct enough population to view themselves as of different origin than Arabs, who came to Africa in large numbers in the seventh century CE. Amazighs claim to have been in the continent for at east 1500 years before the Arab invasions. Historians who have concentrated on this population which lives in Algeria, Morocco, Libya, and Mauritania have often missed the point of this African group's African claim. They want to be identified as Africans. Their closest neighbors are the Hausa, Peul, Mossi, and Tamaschek ethnic groups. Intermarriage between these groups over the years has meant that many people called Amazigh are so culturally and geographically African, wearing amulets and believing in djinn (spirits), eating the same foods as their neighbors, and singing and dancing in the same way, that it is nonsense to speak of them in any other way. Like many indigenous Africans they are nominal believers in the Qur'an but maintain strong cultural cnnections to their ancestors. A proper reading of African history must always begin with Africa as the source and the inspiration for deeds done on the continent. One does not have to look outside Africa to explain African creations, phenomena, or activities. No aliens from Mars will be found responsble for building Great Zimbabwe or the Great Pyramids. Thus whatever cultural expressions one finds among the Amazighs must be seen as African expressions. They are neither Europeans, as we understand Europe, nor Asian, but African.
Though there is indeed much to critique in this short passage the view of the preeminent Afrocentric scholar is that Imazighen are an African people. Many will disagree with how he arrived at that conclusion but the preponderant weight of anthropologists and historians do nonetheless agree that Imazighen are Africans. Some Berbers on the otherhand still look to Levantine and/or Yemeni origin mythos for their roots. Such legendary roots appear in Graeco-Roman, Hebrew, and Arabic source material. While a people's self-determination must be respected the scientific value of their tradition is not above question.
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: Afro-centric must not be unjustified or unfounded to be afrocentric. As it begins on the black colour as a seperate community, it has then to be considered as afrocentrism. Al takruri, it has not to be a university, but a type of ideas with commun thoughts.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Mazigh, back up your troublemaking claims. Cite "Afro-American" sources quoting what they write about Berbers. Bet you a bowl of kiff you can't even produce even one!
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: I think that the Afro-American scholarship (like as many types of scholarship) seems to have a problem with the Berbers.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Altakruri, You didn't read my first reply? "In an interview with an American historian who holds that the Roman emperor Septimius Severus was black, a journalist recently asked whether he wasn't Berber, and received the simple answer, 'What's that?'"
Can you tell me what is the afrocentric (blacks) generally believe of the Berbers. This citaion above is an exemple.
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The difference between nazism and extreme blacknationalism is the power. The extreme black nationalists are fortunately too weak to vanish the white populations.
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You can keep running from Asante's Afrocentric opinion on Berbers posted just 2 posts before your reply and the fact that in the USA only one university teaches Berber and that university is a traditional black university but you can't hide behind a simple anecdote in one book from those facts.
Your M.O. is to stir strife between Berber & Black. You have no regard for facts only self fueled hatred. The last thing you want is a reasoned understanding
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: Altakruri, You didn't read my first reply? "In an interview with an American historian who holds that the Roman emperor Septimius Severus was black, a journalist recently asked whether he wasn't Berber, and received the simple answer, 'What's that?'"
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REPOSTED FROM THIS VERY SAME THREAD JUST DAYS AGO FOR THE BLACK HATING BUM WHO WISHES IT WEREN'T SO.
Originally posted 03 October, 2010 05:39 PM
Nope, you can't separate Howard University from what you call "Afro-American" scholarship because it is the first name in Black American scholarship and contrary to your false claim has no problem with Berbers as it is the only post secondary school in the USA to teach Berber language.
On top of that you haven't a clue about Afrocentricity or what it says about "Berbers" even though what follows below was read by you back in April when it was first posted you still continue spewing malevolence against black people. Your obvious aim is to widen the gap between Berber and Black making any positive contact between the two an impossibility.
=====
Molefi Kete Asante is the de facto founder of modern Afrocentricity. His groundbreaking work, Afrocentricity, and his position at Temple University's Department of African American studies catapulted him to top rank of Afrocentric cultural philosophy.
In his 2007 work, The History of Africa: the quest for eternal harmony, Asante addresses the issue of North Africa's people and their affinities which I present below witholding my criticism of Asante's methodology.
quote: ... popular historian J. D. Fage ... criticized the racist historian C. G. Seligman's Races of Africa, in which Seligman went so far as to speak of northern Africans as "Europeans," [although] his own work lacks sensitivity to the African reality as well. While Fage noted that Seligman used this description because he believed that "white" was superior to "black," his own discussion of race and Africa is not without difficulty. For him the question of the northern Africans is also problematic because "there is no satisfactory general name in modern use for the men of Caucasoid stock who do not live in Asia or Europe as most Caucasoids do, but who are native to Africa in that they have been resident there for many thousands of years" (Fage 1978, p. 6).
Prior to 2000 BCE all of the people of northern Africa were black in color. Furthermore, before the seventh century CE, North Africa was peopled mainly by black people and people who migrated from Europe in the ninth century BCE. There were no large populations of Arabs in North Africa before the rise of Islam and the religious movement that gave rise to the fervor for making converts of other people. Actually the Amazighs (so-called Berber people) have been in Africa much longer than the Arabs, but certainly not as long as the indigenous Africans. The Amazighs are culturally Africans and have not been interested in the racial politics of Europeans who claim that the Amazighs, because of skin color, are Europeans. The question of race in Africa is not the same question as in America or Europe. A person whose ancestors have been in Africa for several thousand years is clearly African in behavior, attitude, and responce to environment. Blackness is a color but it is also an experience, that is, a cultural and historical experience related to social practice, language, and cultural expressions.
In the early twenty-first century there are about 3 million Amazighs, which is not a large population out of approximately a billion people on the continent of Africa, yet a distinct enough population to view themselves as of different origin than Arabs, who came to Africa in large numbers in the seventh century CE. Amazighs claim to have been in the continent for at east 1500 years before the Arab invasions. Historians who have concentrated on this population which lives in Algeria, Morocco, Libya, and Mauritania have often missed the point of this African group's African claim. They want to be identified as Africans. Their closest neighbors are the Hausa, Peul, Mossi, and Tamaschek ethnic groups. Intermarriage between these groups over the years has meant that many people called Amazigh are so culturally and geographically African, wearing amulets and believing in djinn (spirits), eating the same foods as their neighbors, and singing and dancing in the same way, that it is nonsense to speak of them in any other way. Like many indigenous Africans they are nominal believers in the Qur'an but maintain strong cultural cnnections to their ancestors. A proper reading of African history must always begin with Africa as the source and the inspiration for deeds done on the continent. One does not have to look outside Africa to explain African creations, phenomena, or activities. No aliens from Mars will be found responsble for building Great Zimbabwe or the Great Pyramids. Thus whatever cultural expressions one finds among the Amazighs must be seen as African expressions. They are neither Europeans, as we understand Europe, nor Asian, but African.
Though there is indeed much to critique in this short passage the view of the preeminent Afrocentric scholar is that Imazighen are an African people. Many will disagree with how he arrived at that conclusion but the preponderant weight of anthropologists and historians do nonetheless agree that Imazighen are Africans. Some Berbers on the otherhand still look to Levantine and/or Yemeni origin mythos for their roots. Such legendary roots appear in Graeco-Roman, Hebrew, and Arabic source material. While a people's self-determination must be respected the scientific value of their tradition is not above question.
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: Afro-centric must not be unjustified or unfounded to be afrocentric. As it begins on the black colour as a seperate community, it has then to be considered as afrocentrism. Al takruri, it has not to be a university, but a type of ideas with commun thoughts.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Thanks altakruri for you interest in this topic. I think there are some prejugements in your replies. Firstly, i don't see afrocentrism as extra value for the berber cause. The Berbers are eventually enemies of the afrocentrists, because they claime they are original to africa, while they are not black; African to Afrocentrists means only black, a white african is a desgusting idea to them. Therefore, you see that some are doing researches on Africa, but they never realise what the Berbers are. The citaion above is an example, what nonsense of three million? Afrocentrism state that the Berbers came with vandales, sea people or Turkish armies. They are a language and may not be seen a population. So, there is no non-black population, but rather an unefined people that speaks an african language. What should afrocentrism look by fair eyes to the Berbers, while they are fanatic of the blackness. It is only possible when they state that the Berbers were originally black, and those actual berbers are Germano-Turkic bastards.
And above all, i don't hate afrocentrism, i just don't like it, or rather, i don't understand it.
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: Thanks altakruri for you interest in this topic. I think there are some prejugements in your replies. Firstly, i don't see afrocentrism as extra value for the berber cause. The Berbers are eventually enemies of the afrocentrists, because they claime they are original to africa, while they are not black; African to Afrocentrists means only black, a white african is a desgusting idea to them. Therefore, you see that some are doing researches on Africa, but they never realise what the Berbers are. The citaion above is an example, what nonsense of three million? Afrocentrism state that the Berbers came with vandales, sea people or Turkish armies. They are a language and may not be seen a population. So, there is no non-black population, but rather an unefined people that speaks an african language. What should afrocentrism look by fair eyes to the Berbers, while they are fanatic of the blackness. It is only possible when they state that the Berbers were originally black, and those actual berbers are Germano-Turkic bastards.
And above all, i don't hate afrocentrism, i just don't like it, or rather, i don't understand it.
So the Berbers are off-white Africans?
What was their evolutionary trajectory and how did they end up "white" in a continent of Black people.
How can you be African, and off-white? Why do you have some of the highest rates of skin cancer in the world in North Africa?
Are you properly adapted? Where did you come from originally?
Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: Thanks altakruri for you interest in this topic. I think there are some prejugements in your replies. Firstly, i don't see afrocentrism as extra value for the berber cause. The Berbers are eventually enemies of the afrocentrists, because they claime they are original to africa, while they are not black;
You are contradicting yourself, because you say "Berbers" claim that they are original to Africa but yet you say they are enemies of Afrocentrists who talk about Africans and African cultures. How on earth is that? So what you are saying is that "Berbers" are an "exclusively white" phenomenon and that they are "original" to Africa? Who says that? And are you claiming that over the thousands of years of movements in and around Africa NO WHITES ever set foot in Africa, especially from across the Mediterranean? That by itself sounds like absolute silliness and has no bearing or merit when looking at historical facts. The historical fact is that many North Africans are mixed and it is because of the location of North Africa relative to Europe and the Levant. No amount of nonsensical scapegoating of imaginary "Afrocentrics" can change that.
The fact is that "Berber" is a language, not a skin color and "Berber" originates no in coastal North Africa but East Africa. Some scholars try to put the Levant as the source, however, NO LINGUIST puts coastal North Africa as a place of origin of Berber languages. So I guess linguists are enemies of Berbers too huh? You keep trying to present some "folk" sort of ideology as somehow being more meaningful and important than facts when it isn't. The fact is that Berbers should be proud of their heritage and that includes the fact that many Berbers do have mixed African/Non African ancestry and no amount of hand wringing and name calling will change that. Just like it will not change that black Africans have always been part of the identity you claim as "Berber" and somehow exclusively white. And that being the case, you create another contradiction, Berbers hating themselves for being what they are, black. But that is what you get when trying to live in fantasy world.
quote: African to Afrocentrists means only black, a white african is a desgusting idea to them.
Are you claiming that whites are more native to and somehow got to Africa before blacks? Please cite any scholar who claims this. I doubt you will find any.
quote: Therefore, you see that some are doing researches on Africa, but they never realise what the Berbers are.
Do you know what the Berbers are? If you did you would realize what you are saying makes no sense.
quote: The citaion above is an example, what nonsense of three million? Afrocentrism state that the Berbers came with vandales, sea people or Turkish armies. They are a language and may not be seen a population. So, there is no non-black population, but rather an unefined people that speaks an african language. What should afrocentrism look by fair eyes to the Berbers, while they are fanatic of the blackness.
And you claim that the "Berbers" are pure whites who originated in Africa and are not mixed with Europeans and others who arrived in North Africa. And you fanatically cling to this with little or no facts or evidence to back it up.
quote: It is only possible when they state that the Berbers were originally black, and those actual berbers are Germano-Turkic bastards.
Who said they were bastards? No wonder you are running in circles. The last I checked, the only people calling Berbers bastards are the French and you can ask Zidane that for yourself. Not to mention the treatment of Berbers by the French in general, who have a history of attacking Berbers and slandering them. So I guess they don't agree with that "pure white African original to Africa" nonsense now do they. But I don't hear you calling them "enemies". So who is not making any sense? The fact that some Berbers are mixed seems to be something you hate and that is not anyone's problem but your own. Maybe you think it will make the French like you better, but apparently they still don't.
quote: And above all, i don't hate afrocentrism, i just don't like it, or rather, i don't understand it.
If you don't understand it then how can you comment on it? Not to mention the fact that the term has little merit in describing all the views and scholarship created by Africans and non Africans on the history of North Africa. In fact, there are numerous European studies that claim Berbers are mixed, so what on earth are you talking about?
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posted
Why do you keep ignoring Asante's view of Berbers as authentic Africans. Asante is the originator of Afrocentricity and developed the discipline to the Ph.D. level at Temple University.
You can't back your suppositions with quotes from degreed published Afrocentrics. You can only post self originating surmises as Afrocentrics claims.
This shows your dishonesty and uncovers your goal to assure continued misunderstanding and strife from the white Berbers (all Berbers are not white as you claim) toward all black peoples.
Afrocentric quote: "Amazighs claim to have been in the continent for at east 1500 years before the Arab invasions. Historians who have concentrated on this population which lives in Algeria, Morocco, Libya, and Mauritania have often missed the point of this African group's African claim. They want to be identified as Africans."
Ancient littoral North Africans themselves have claimed partial origin from Trojan War refugees, the Army of Hercules, and other non-African sources. Islamic era North Africans themselves claimed foreign origins from Palestine and Arabia.
Graeco-Latins (from Aeschylus to Manilius) and Muslims (al~Jahiz and others) have classified littoral North Africans of their times with the black peoples of their known world. That really rubs you raw doesn't it.
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: Thanks altakruri for you interest in this topic. I think there are some prejugements in your replies. Firstly, i don't see afrocentrism as extra value for the berber cause. The Berbers are eventually enemies of the afrocentrists, because they claime they are original to africa, while they are not black; African to Afrocentrists means only black, a white african is a desgusting idea to them. Therefore, you see that some are doing researches on Africa, but they never realise what the Berbers are. The citaion above is an example, what nonsense of three million? Afrocentrism state that the Berbers came with vandales, sea people or Turkish armies. They are a language and may not be seen a population. So, there is no non-black population, but rather an unefined people that speaks an african language. What should afrocentrism look by fair eyes to the Berbers, while they are fanatic of the blackness. It is only possible when they state that the Berbers were originally black, and those actual berbers are Germano-Turkic bastards.
And above all, i don't hate afrocentrism, i just don't like it, or rather, i don't understand it.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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I don't see anything new to me in asante's view. He even mispresented our claims. Berber activists say the the berbers inhabited this country thousands years before the arabs. 1500 Before the Arabs means they arrived to Africa after the Phoenicians, 1100 bc? You also tend to mispresent our claims about our origins, it is the arabs who claim we are from yemen and some selfhating berbers. Our claim is that we are descendands of the Capsian culture with contirbution of the so called iberomaurussians. So at least 7000 years ago.
It depends also what he mean by "they are africans". I didn't say the Berbers are white, they're not white, but also not black.
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You made some naive and peculiar statements trying to defend Afrocentrism, but this one takes the cake
quote: Originally posted by alTakruri: Asante is the originator of Afrocentricity
Must be some good stuff in those pages if he's able to persuade people into doing a 360, ignore earlier work and accept him as the lord of Afrocentrism.
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quote:al~Takruri reminds you: Though there is indeed much to critique in this short passage the view of the preeminent Afrocentric scholar is that Imazighen are an African people. Many will disagree with how he arrived at that conclusion but the preponderant weight of anthropologists and historians do nonetheless agree that Imazighen are Africans. Some Berbers on the otherhand still look to Levantine and/or Yemeni origin mythos for their roots. Such legendary roots appear in Graeco-Roman, Hebrew, and Arabic source material. While a people's self-determination must be respected the scientific value of their tradition is not above question.
In fact you misrepresent Berber claims. While Amazigh activist tend to imagine an uninterrupted habitation of littoral North Africa by Tamazight speakers from at least the epi-paleolithic to today (scientifically untenable per osteo remains or the fact that Tamazight languages didn't exist that long ago and in fact originate from Darfur) but many Berbers cling to fanciful foreign origins as I wrote above.
I make no claim in speaking for either Imazighen or berbers but how can I misrepresent something which you yourself claim is what "some selfhating berbers" credit as their origins?
So there is no unanimous Berber claim to misrepresent.
Despite Asante's obvious mistakes which I did not critique because I wanted to get to his bottom line that the Afrocentric view is that Berbers are African, something he unequivocally states.
But that's not good enough for you. You have to find something to stir up strife between Berber and Black.
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: I don't see anything new to me in asante's view. He even mispresented our claims. Berber activists say the the berbers inhabited this country thousands years before the arabs. 1500 Before the Arabs means they arrived to Africa after the Phoenicians, 1100 bc? You also tend to mispresent our claims about our origins, it is the arabs who claim we are from yemen and some selfhating berbers. Our claim is that we are descendands of the Capsian culture with contirbution of the so called iberomaurussians. So at least 7000 years ago.
It depends also what he mean by "they are africans". I didn't say the Berbers are white, they're not white, but also not black.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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I'm just pointing out something that I thought was inaccurate.
Outside of a tentative co-sign of Mazighs criticism of Afrocentrism I don't have much else to agree with. I do see where he is comming from considering Diops theory on the origin of Berbers and Theophile Obenga's linguistic classifications. These tendencies however are as far as I know not more common in Afrocentrism than they are in Eurocentrism, or any other school of thought.
The tendency to dislodge Berbers from Africa is simply ignorance.
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: I don't see anything new to me in asante's view. He even mispresented our claims. Berber activists say the the berbers inhabited this country thousands years before the arabs. 1500 Before the Arabs means they arrived to Africa after the Phoenicians, 1100 bc? You also tend to mispresent our claims about our origins, it is the arabs who claim we are from yemen and some selfhating berbers. Our claim is that we are descendands of the Capsian culture with contirbution of the so called iberomaurussians. So at least 7000 years ago.
It depends also what he mean by "they are africans". I didn't say the Berbers are white, they're not white, but also not black.
The point you are missing in all of your polemical talk is that "Berber" is a social linguistic and cultural package. Therefore its "people" is defined as those who carry on the language and traditions identified as "Berber". It is not a genetic marker and it is not a skin color.
Yes, Africans have been in North Africa for Thousands of years before ANYONE ELSE. And as part of this population of Africans there were people who spoke Berber languages and practiced Berber culture. There is no separation between the two. Yes, North Africa has been exposed to years of migrations and interaction between European and African peoples. However, Berber culture and language does not originate anywhere else than Africa and certainly not coastal North Africa. There were Africans in North Africa before there was a Berber language or culture. Therefore, to speak of Berbers going back 20,000 years is strictly nonsense to begin with, as the language or culture did not exist 20,000 years ago. So does that mean that time is now an enemy of the Berbers?
But if you were honest about your "Berber" claims you would present those who you claim to be "Berber" Activists. You can't present anonymous non entities as some how trumping science and fact. Whatever "activists" you quote should be able to be identified and their documentation available for scrutiny.
The fact is you are simply trying to present a false vision of history and in the process driving yourself crazy in the process. If you love Amazigh or Berber language and culture, then by all means celebrate it. Instead of wasting your time chasing invisible "afrocentric" enemies, why don't you tell me who the Amazigh Activists are fighting against? I know for sure that they aren't fighting against Africans and that is certainly not the reason for their activism. But such is the case when you present nonsense and try and pass it off as fact.
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posted
The origins of the term "Afrocentrism" date to 1961 or 1962. The term "Afrocentric" appears in a typescript proposal for an Encyclopedia Africana. W. E. B. Du Bois may have been responsible for inserting the word. However the most influential Afrocentric text prior to this naming is Stolen Legacy, George G. M. James. (influenced by Marcus Garvey) One of James" principal sources was a book called The Ancient Mysteries and Modern Masonry (1909) by the Rev. Charles H. Vail, which also goes back to a book called Sethos, a History or Biography, based on Unpublished Memoirs of Ancient Egypt (1731) by the Abbé Jean Terrasson (1670-1750),a professor of Greek.
alTakruri tries to make Afrocentricity seem as if it were a product of Universities. In fact it was a reaction to the traditional academia. Later with Asante it became a part of the university system. The emphasis of Afrocentricity is Egypt despite Clyde Winter's broader approach.
Posts: 42954 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: The origins of the term "Afrocentrism" date to 1961 or 1962. The term "Afrocentric" appears in a typescript proposal for an Encyclopedia Africana. W. E. B. Du Bois may have been responsible for inserting the word. However the most influential Afrocentric text prior to this naming is Stolen Legacy, George G. M. James. (influenced by Marcus Garvey) One of James" principal sources was a book called The Ancient Mysteries and Modern Masonry (1909) by the Rev. Charles H. Vail, which also goes back to a book called Sethos, a History or Biography, based on Unpublished Memoirs of Ancient Egypt (1731) by the Abbé Jean Terrasson (1670-1750),a professor of Greek.
alTakruri tries to make Afrocentricity seem as if it were a product of Universities. In fact it was a reaction to the traditional academia. Later with Asante it became a part of the university system.
100% Co-sign If you read Drusilla Dundee Houstons, Wonderful Ethiopians, you see that the type of claims that would become characteristic of Afrocentism later on predate the 60s.
It's available on the web. Don't post excerpts though, quite a few wordsmiths here will not hestitate to flip things around and find a way to make it defend Afrocentricity.
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posted
Yes, as a Wolof of Senegal Diop let antipathies between Maurs vs Wolof and other non-Tamazight speaking Africans color his opinions on them, though I don't know if he applied those conclusions to all Imazighen.
Obenga is a lone wolf in seeing Tamazight outside of relation to other nearby African language phyla but he does recognize it as an indigenous African language. One need revisit his analysis of the language and argue with his presentation point by point to disconfirm it.
But now will you list precisely who is, in your terms, dislodging Berbers from Africa other than 'net "scholars?"
quote:Originally posted by Kalonji: This is not a thread chase
I'm just pointing out something that I thought was inaccurate.
Outside of a tentative co-sign of Mazighs criticism of Afrocentrism I don't have much else to agree with. I do see where he is comming from considering Diops theory on the origin of Berbers and Theophile Obenga's linguistic classifications. These tendencies however are as far as I know not more common in Afrocentrism than it is in Eurocentrism, or any other school of thought.
The tendency to dislodge Berbers from Africa is simply ignorance.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Why not deal with me in AOB's Afrocentricity thread instead of chasing me around thread to thread.
Afrocentricity is a university discipline. It was promulgated by Asante, became the methodology of Temple University's once Black Studies program. At Temple one can advance to the Ph.D. level in Africology. There are other universities, about 4 I think, who likewise teach the discipline of Afrocentricity and grant degrees in the field.
Afrocentricity is not very involved with history at all. Perusal of its organ The Journal of Black Studies reveals the wide extent of Afrocentric concerns.
Afrocentricity is what those adherent to the discipline say it is. Afrocentricity is not whatever you. polemicists, or the media wish to construct it as, Afrocentrism.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: alTakruri tries to make Afrocentricity seem as if it were a product of Universities. In fact it was a reaction to the traditional academia. Later with Asante it became a part of the university system.
The emphasis of Afrocentricity is Egypt despite Clyde Winter's broader approach.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
If you're referring to me I've owned it since it was reissued and its one of the few books that didn't get "lost" by the shipping firm unlike nearly 1300 pieces of my personal library.
Ah, these thread chases, how juvenile and distracting.
quote:Originally posted by Kalonji:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: The origins of the term "Afrocentrism" date to 1961 or 1962. The term "Afrocentric" appears in a typescript proposal for an Encyclopedia Africana. W. E. B. Du Bois may have been responsible for inserting the word. However the most influential Afrocentric text prior to this naming is Stolen Legacy, George G. M. James. (influenced by Marcus Garvey) One of James" principal sources was a book called The Ancient Mysteries and Modern Masonry (1909) by the Rev. Charles H. Vail, which also goes back to a book called Sethos, a History or Biography, based on Unpublished Memoirs of Ancient Egypt (1731) by the Abbé Jean Terrasson (1670-1750),a professor of Greek.
alTakruri tries to make Afrocentricity seem as if it were a product of Universities. In fact it was a reaction to the traditional academia. Later with Asante it became a part of the university system.
100% Co-sign If you read Drusilla Dundee Houstons, Wonderful Ethiopians, you see that the type of claims that would become characteristic of Afrocentism later on predate the 60s.
It's available on the web. Don't post excerpts though, quite a few wordsmiths here will not hestitate to flip things around and find a way to make it defend Afrocentricity.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Unfortunately the Amazigh activists are fighting against Africans. For the most part they are anti-black and pick fights with blacks while leaving whites and Europeans alone.
They mainly fight with the government of Algeria but other Maghreb states are also fair game.
Their membership is largely composed of people who have a French, Spanish or Italian mother.
One of their prime spokeswomen is Helene Hagan. But the real struggle is undertaken on the continent by various movements who don't use English as their language of communication.
The world of Amazigh activism is a violent one full of reprisals. About a decade ago one of their fora went underground because posters and their families were targeted for heavy action, beatings and shootings is what I mean.
"Arabists" and Amazigh activists, both are indigenous North Africans, are the biggest enemies of each other.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
But if you were honest about your "Berber" claims you would present those who you claim to be "Berber" Activists. You can't present anonymous non entities as some how trumping science and fact. Whatever "activists" you quote should be able to be identified and their documentation available for scrutiny.
Instead of wasting your time chasing invisible "afrocentric" enemies, why don't you tell me who the Amazigh Activists are fighting against? I know for sure that they aren't fighting against Africans and that is certainly not the reason for their activism. But such is the case when you present nonsense and try and pass it off as fact.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Altakruri, You don't understand my attitude of "asante". If he has no idea on the Berbers, i don't see that his view is worth understanding. He made basic errors, therefore, he is not to be trusted.
I don't read a lot on the view of the Afrocentrists on the Berbers. As non-black they were not an interesting topic to them. Is this the reason for his basic errors?
Those who are interested in Berbers, tried to to make them as foreingers (see anta diop)...
In this topic, we find good exemples of afrocetrism (= blackcentrism). Dana marnish: Maures originate in Arabia. and the Mazighen came from Yemen. Doug M. Berbers are nothing but a language. Clyde Winters: Garamantes and the Tifinagh script are Mande things. Mike1111 and many others: Berbers are mixed with Germans and Turks.
Africans are rather Gaddafians....
Altakruri, can you give me any serious article on the Berbers written by any afrocentrist?
Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Kalonji: 100% Co-sign If you read Drusilla Dundee Houstons, Wonderful Ethiopians, you see that the type of claims that would become ***characteristic*** of Afrocentism later on predate the 60s.
It's available on the web. Don't post excerpts though, quite a few wordsmiths here will not hestitate to flip things around and find a way to make it defend Afrocentricity.
Talk about wordsmiths and flip floppers
the definition of Afrocentricity is not the property of Asante, that he **or anyone else** can dictate that their interpretation should be the correct one - Kalonji
posted
In attempting to define the term "African people" the Afrocentrist seldom means to include Berbers or white South Africans or the southern Asians who have lived on the continent for centuries. He or she refuses to concede that the concept "African" is based on a racial typology rather than a geographical designation. Asante himself concedes that "African" cannot simply refer to a person descended from African ancestors, since all human being are presumably descended from one primal African stock. Afrotopia: the roots of African American popular history by Wilson Jeremiah Moses
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alTakruri, staunch non-afrocentric defender of afrocentrism.
Afrocentrism is barely on the cultural radar screen these days. Are there books coming out that anyone's even heard off? The most visible proponents seem to be Ashra Kwesi and Sarsutenseti doing the underground lecture circuit. Others, Ray Hagins, Bobby Hemmit, Phil Valentine, promoting various mixes of Afrocentric spirituality mixed with histroy lessons They do have something of an influence, you can see it, for example a few African American spoken word performers calling themselves by Egyptian names. Professors Dr. Ben and Dr. Clarke set the historical tone, now people are trying to turn it into a political movement, if not making a small income off of lecturing and related projects. Berbers are a topic they have no interest in. Berbers don't fit neatly into the polemic
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"I will reject 'Afrocentrists' who say Berbers are African, especially if I see 3 as a typo for 30 as in 3 million vs 30 million.
I will accept only 'Afrocentrists' who say Berbers are not African because that is the only point of view I want to hear about."
My how honest of you.
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: Altakruri, You don't understand my attitude of "asante". If he has no idea on the Berbers, i don't see that his view is worth understanding. He made basic errors, therefore, he is not to be trusted.
I don't read a lot on the view of the Afrocentrists on the Berbers. As non-black they were not an interesting topic to them. Is this the reason for his basic errors?
Those who are interested in Berbers, tried to to make them as foreingers (see anta diop)...
In this topic, we find good exemples of afrocetrism (= blackcentrism). Dana marnish: Maures originate in Arabia. and the Mazighen came from Yemen. Doug M. Berbers are nothing but a language. Clyde Winters: Garamantes and the Tifinagh script are Mande things. Mike1111 and many others: Berbers are mixed with Germans and Turks.
Africans are rather Gaddafians....
Altakruri, can you give me any serious article on the Berbers written by any afrocentrist?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
If they are southern Asians then how can they be Africans? That's an oxymoron, hater.
Africans are African people descended from any of the peoples known to speak one of the indigenous African languages of the indigenous African phyla, in my opinion. I don't care how long one lives in my house, until one marries in they're a guest not family.
Who are all these 'Afrocentrists' of yours who say Berbers aren't African? You'll have to do better than falling back on just two individuals, Diop and Winters, and give us a good full list of names, and none of these unpublished internet posters.
And hey, Eurocentrists claim Berbers are Eurasian. Why aren't you on their forums confronting them? Because you hate blacks and want to promote strife between Berber and Black that's why.
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: In attempting to define the term "African people" the Afrocentrist seldom means to include Berbers or white South Africans or the southern Asians who have lived on the continent for centuries. He or she refuses to concede that the concept "African" is based on a racial typology rather than a geographical designation. Asante himself concedes that "African" cannot simply refer to a person descended from African ancestors, since all human being are presumably descended from one primal African stock. Afrotopia: the roots of African American popular history by Wilson Jeremiah Moses
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Well this is a Fulani woman not any kind of Berber pure or otherwise.
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: How then would I explain these obviously PURE African Berbers.
hehehe
stupid mike again.
quote:Who are all these 'Afrocentrists' of yours who say Berbers aren't African? You'll have to do better than falling back on just two individuals, Diop and Winters, and give us a good full list of names, and none of these unpublished internet posters.
I dont get this alleged pro-Berber weirdo. He seems to be on the same anti-Afrocentric mission but from a different angle than Lioness and kalonji. Problem is Diop never claimed to be an Afrocentric and Winters, well, he is just an eccentric bitter old man.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: And hey, Eurocentrists claim Berbers are Eurasian. Why aren't you on their forums confronting them? Because you hate blacks and want to promote strife between Berber and Black that's why.
The eurocentric forum that i know is tromfront. And there they don't allow any "anti" to post, because the reactions are censured. I don't hate blacks at all. You have to get it. I'm just putting some contradictions to be discussed. You're right in demanding me to give more examples on those afrocentrists. But you can also help in this topic, i'm sure you know more!
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Well this is a Fulani woman not any kind of Berber pure or otherwise.
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: How then would I explain these obviously PURE African Berbers.
Mike111 is such a F-ing joke.
Posts: 8806 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Unfortunately the Amazigh activists are fighting against Africans. For the most part they are anti-black and pick fights with blacks while leaving whites and Europeans alone.
They mainly fight with the government of Algeria but other Maghreb states are also fair game.
Their membership is largely composed of people who have a French, Spanish or Italian mother.
One of their prime spokeswomen is Helene Hagan. But the real struggle is undertaken on the continent by various movements who don't use English as their language of communication.
The world of Amazigh activism is a violent one full of reprisals. About a decade ago one of their fora went underground because posters and their families were targeted for heavy action, beatings and shootings is what I mean.
"Arabists" and Amazigh activists, both are indigenous North Africans, are the biggest enemies of each other.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
But if you were honest about your "Berber" claims you would present those who you claim to be "Berber" Activists. You can't present anonymous non entities as some how trumping science and fact. Whatever "activists" you quote should be able to be identified and their documentation available for scrutiny.
Instead of wasting your time chasing invisible "afrocentric" enemies, why don't you tell me who the Amazigh Activists are fighting against? I know for sure that they aren't fighting against Africans and that is certainly not the reason for their activism. But such is the case when you present nonsense and try and pass it off as fact.
Sounds to me like the French have coopted Berber identity and are using it to destabilize parts of North Africa. Which is ironic considering the strong anti-Berber attitudes among many French and the history of French oppression in Africa. No wonder these people are confused.
Posts: 8900 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: And hey, Eurocentrists claim Berbers are Eurasian. Why aren't you on their forums confronting them? Because you hate blacks and want to promote strife between Berber and Black that's why.
The eurocentric forum that i know is tromfront. And there they don't allow any "anti" to post, because the reactions are censured. I don't hate blacks at all. You have to get it. I'm just putting some contradictions to be discussed. You're right in demanding me to give more examples on those afrocentrists. But you can also help in this topic, i'm sure you know more!
So the question remains, why are you "Berbers" not on Eurocentric sites fighting them for calling you all "Nordics" and Euro-asians.
I don't get the Eurocentic mindset, they fight tooth and nail to claim all light skinned light haired, fine featured African as eurasian then fight toothe and nail to say they are "African"..LOL.
Hell, at least Afrocentrics stick with Africa.
Then you have the Berber-centrics who have no logical argument at all, other than to claim they are REAL AFRICANs but will always talk about how different they are from other Africans and similar they are to Non Africans.
I don't get it at all
The funny part is Who the hell in "African American" circles is claiming Berbers?? Hell yall are worse than the Arabs at creating civilization..LOL
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