I know its high in the African Horn and in North Africa as well as the Middle East, but is it African, Southwest Asian?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite: I know its high in the African Horn and in North Africa as well as the Middle East, but is it African, Southwest Asian?
Which haplogroup J?-- Y-chromosome (paternal) or mitochondrial (maternal)?
As lioness shows, both are likely of Eurasian origin. Paternal hg J is strongly associated with Neolithic expansion into both Europe and Africa.
Posted by nee4speed111 (Member # 22573) on :
No
Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
No. But let explain WHY based on the data. The most updated Human Y-DNA tree Looks like this:
African Paths to A/B/E/D: Root> AT> A Root> AT> BT> B Root> AT> BT> CT> DE> E Root> AT> BT> CT> DE> D0
*CT* was considered the "Out of Africa" lineage in older literature. Due to its older age and more resolution on the Human Y-Chrom *CF* is now considered the "Out of Africa lineage". People need to remember this when they also have grand delusions of Haplogroup R being "African" (42 ).
An even LONGER Eurasian Path to R: Root> AT> BT> CT> CF> FT> GHIJK> HIJK> IJK> K> MNOPS> MPS> P> QR> R.
If J or R was "African" what we would likely see is early African specific diversity on many or all the haplogroups leading down the path to R and J. They don't exist, instead that diversity and early split is mainly among "Southern Route" South East Asians. The only thing that exists is on the maternal side with African M1 and U6 - Two African specific clades of markers dominated by and nested within otherwise Eurasian maternal diversity. The only thing we *had* was V88...and due to the advancement of archaeogenetics we dont even have R-V88 anymore, maybe we have its subclade R-V69.
While anything is "Possible", there is no data nor evidence that shows these lineages being part of African continental long term genetic history. Someone more familiar with Haplogroup J can let us know if there are any African specific major subclades? I doubt it, but i don't study Eurasian markers.
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
It all depends on what geography one defines as African v Asian
Levant/South Arabia can be defined as Greater Africa than those subclades that evolved in ancient Greater Africa is African
Personally, I don't subscribe to Eurocentric defined maps or geography,,,
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Beyoku, I think Y-hg F may be of African provenance since I read many years back both F* and I think F1 having a significant presence in Sudan among tribes in the Kordofan region. I don't think it can be attributed to Arabs because not only do the non-Arabized tribes carry it but the typical 'Arab' profile is hg J. Strangely there is no F in Arabia or the Levant but area in Eurasia known to have F is in India. This reminds me how mtDNA hg M1 is specific to East Africa particularly the Horn but also found as far north as Egypt, but that M* and most of the M offshoots are also in India and not even Southwest Asia.
Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Beyoku, I think Y-hg F may be of African provenance since I read many years back both F* and I think F1 having a significant presence in Sudan among tribes in the Kordofan region. I don't think it can be attributed to Arabs because not only do the non-Arabized tribes carry it but the typical 'Arab' profile is hg J. Strangely there is no F in Arabia or the Levant but area in Eurasia known to have F is in India. This reminds me how mtDNA hg M1 is specific to East Africa particularly the Horn but also found as far north as Egypt, but that M* and most of the M offshoots are also in India and not even Southwest Asia.
The EVIDENCE that would Support the origin of F* in African would not only be some isolated clades. It would be African specific diversity. F is about 55KYA. Where is African F3a and F3b.....or the F~ equivalent of African D0? They dont exist. What other African lineages are 55kya and have NO African diversity? Dont worry, i will wait.
F doesnt have a South West Asian distribution point, it has a South East Asian one. See the article above. In fact in terms of mtdna M and N, most of those Early subclades are not South West Asia either, they are south EAST Asian. The same arguments you (aand others) use to make an argument that J, F, or R could be "African" is what Eurocentrics use to argue E is Eurasian.
F* being "African" is only theoretical or technical and doesn't account for any surviving presence of F diversity that we know of, the same thing can be said for the African origin of Haplogroup C (See Below).
quote:Taking into account a rare African D0 lineage and the timeframe summarized above, we have argued (Haber et al. 2019) that the initial splits within CT are likely to have occurred *in Africa before the exit*, and that three lineages, C, D and FT, were carried out by the ancestors of present-day non-Africans. Each of these three lineages subsequently expanded: C and D moderately, and FT massively
.
Posted by Elijah The Tishbite (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by beyoku:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Beyoku, I think Y-hg F may be of African provenance since I read many years back both F* and I think F1 having a significant presence in Sudan among tribes in the Kordofan region. I don't think it can be attributed to Arabs because not only do the non-Arabized tribes carry it but the typical 'Arab' profile is hg J. Strangely there is no F in Arabia or the Levant but area in Eurasia known to have F is in India. This reminds me how mtDNA hg M1 is specific to East Africa particularly the Horn but also found as far north as Egypt, but that M* and most of the M offshoots are also in India and not even Southwest Asia.
The EVIDENCE that would Support the origin of F* in African would not only be some isolated clades. It would be African specific diversity. F is about 55KYA. Where is African F3a and F3b.....or the F~ equivalent of African D0? They dont exist. What other African lineages are 55kya and have NO African diversity? Dont worry, i will wait.
F doesnt have a South West Asian distribution point, it has a South East Asian one. See the article above. In fact in terms of mtdna M and N, most of those Early subclades are not South West Asia either, they are south EAST Asian. The same arguments you (aand others) use to make an argument that J, F, or R could be "African" is what Eurocentrics use to argue E is Eurasian.
F* being "African" is only theoretical or technical and doesn't account for any surviving presence of F diversity that we know of, the same thing can be said for the African origin of Haplogroup C (See Below).
quote:Taking into account a rare African D0 lineage and the timeframe summarized above, we have argued (Haber et al. 2019) that the initial splits within CT are likely to have occurred *in Africa before the exit*, and that three lineages, C, D and FT, were carried out by the ancestors of present-day non-Africans. Each of these three lineages subsequently expanded: C and D moderately, and FT massively
.
So the high J in Ethiopians is not an African specific clade, but is instead due to founder effect? I'm just trying to figure out the reason for the high frequency of J in the Horn. I know the J in Sudan is due to recent immigration from Arabs, ditto for North Africans, but from I understand Ethiopians don't have their J from the same source populations
Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite: So the high J in Ethiopians is not an African specific clade, but is instead due to founder effect? I'm just trying to figure out the reason for the high frequency of J in the Horn. I know the J in Sudan is due to recent immigration from Arabs, ditto for North Africans, but from I understand Ethiopians don't have there J from the same source populations
It might be from the people who spread South Semitic languages into Ethiopia from southern Arabia, giving rise to Ethio-Semitic.
Posted by Elijah The Tishbite (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP:
quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite: So the high J in Ethiopians is not an African specific clade, but is instead due to founder effect? I'm just trying to figure out the reason for the high frequency of J in the Horn. I know the J in Sudan is due to recent immigration from Arabs, ditto for North Africans, but from I understand Ethiopians don't have there J from the same source populations
It might be from the people who spread South Semitic languages into Ethiopia from southern Arabia, giving rise to Ethio-Semitic.
That seems plausible and makes sense, but its also high in even some Cushitic speakers in Ethiopia.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
The EVIDENCE that would Support the origin of F* in African would not only be some isolated clades. It would be African specific diversity. F is about 55KYA. Where is African F3a and F3b.....or the F~ equivalent of African D0? They dont exist. What other African lineages are 55kya and have NO African diversity? Dont worry, i will wait.
F doesnt have a South West Asian distribution point, it has a South East Asian one. See the article above. In fact in terms of mtdna M and N, most of those Early subclades are not South West Asia either, they are south EAST Asian. The same arguments you (aand others) use to make an argument that J, F, or R could be "African" is what Eurocentrics use to argue E is Eurasian.
F* being "African" is only theoretical or technical and doesn't account for any surviving presence of F diversity that we know of, the same thing can be said for the African origin of Haplogroup C (See Below).
quote:Taking into account a rare African D0 lineage and the timeframe summarized above, we have argued (Haber et al. 2019) that the initial splits within CT are likely to have occurred *in Africa before the exit*, and that three lineages, C, D and FT, were carried out by the ancestors of present-day non-Africans. Each of these three lineages subsequently expanded: C and D moderately, and FT massively
.
Well I did say I think it could be African. I was never sure but you bring up a good point. Thanks for the paper, I'll read it when I get the time.
Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite:
quote:Originally posted by beyoku:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Beyoku, I think Y-hg F may be of African provenance since I read many years back both F* and I think F1 having a significant presence in Sudan among tribes in the Kordofan region. I don't think it can be attributed to Arabs because not only do the non-Arabized tribes carry it but the typical 'Arab' profile is hg J. Strangely there is no F in Arabia or the Levant but area in Eurasia known to have F is in India. This reminds me how mtDNA hg M1 is specific to East Africa particularly the Horn but also found as far north as Egypt, but that M* and most of the M offshoots are also in India and not even Southwest Asia.
The EVIDENCE that would Support the origin of F* in African would not only be some isolated clades. It would be African specific diversity. F is about 55KYA. Where is African F3a and F3b.....or the F~ equivalent of African D0? They dont exist. What other African lineages are 55kya and have NO African diversity? Dont worry, i will wait.
F doesnt have a South West Asian distribution point, it has a South East Asian one. See the article above. In fact in terms of mtdna M and N, most of those Early subclades are not South West Asia either, they are south EAST Asian. The same arguments you (aand others) use to make an argument that J, F, or R could be "African" is what Eurocentrics use to argue E is Eurasian.
F* being "African" is only theoretical or technical and doesn't account for any surviving presence of F diversity that we know of, the same thing can be said for the African origin of Haplogroup C (See Below).
quote:Taking into account a rare African D0 lineage and the timeframe summarized above, we have argued (Haber et al. 2019) that the initial splits within CT are likely to have occurred *in Africa before the exit*, and that three lineages, C, D and FT, were carried out by the ancestors of present-day non-Africans. Each of these three lineages subsequently expanded: C and D moderately, and FT massively
.
So the high J in Ethiopians is not an African specific clade, but is instead due to founder effect? I'm just trying to figure out the reason for the high frequency of J in the Horn. I know the J in Sudan is due to recent immigration from Arabs, ditto for North Africans, but from I understand Ethiopians don't have their J from the same source populations
Ethiopian J lineages are pretty diverse and quite old. I don't think there are any African specific Major lineages, like entire branches equivalent to a V88, an M1, or a U6.....in a way where we can track the presence of specific J1 outside of Africa as being attributed to Ethiopians.
If D can be African based on D0 then J can be African. The only significant extant lineages between A and J are F and K if you combine them. F and K more common in Africa than African D though unlike African D we don't have much information on what where they are cladwise.
I could definitely see a northern Ethiopian origin producing this especially considering how much back migrated J is in the Sudan. You arguably need an African origin to produce this much J in Africa.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The origin of a haplogroup is suggested by
1) location of highest diversity 2) location of highest frequency 3) location of oldest human remains carrier found
Posted by Elijah The Tishbite (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by beyoku:
quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite:
quote:Originally posted by beyoku:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Beyoku, I think Y-hg F may be of African provenance since I read many years back both F* and I think F1 having a significant presence in Sudan among tribes in the Kordofan region. I don't think it can be attributed to Arabs because not only do the non-Arabized tribes carry it but the typical 'Arab' profile is hg J. Strangely there is no F in Arabia or the Levant but area in Eurasia known to have F is in India. This reminds me how mtDNA hg M1 is specific to East Africa particularly the Horn but also found as far north as Egypt, but that M* and most of the M offshoots are also in India and not even Southwest Asia.
The EVIDENCE that would Support the origin of F* in African would not only be some isolated clades. It would be African specific diversity. F is about 55KYA. Where is African F3a and F3b.....or the F~ equivalent of African D0? They dont exist. What other African lineages are 55kya and have NO African diversity? Dont worry, i will wait.
F doesnt have a South West Asian distribution point, it has a South East Asian one. See the article above. In fact in terms of mtdna M and N, most of those Early subclades are not South West Asia either, they are south EAST Asian. The same arguments you (aand others) use to make an argument that J, F, or R could be "African" is what Eurocentrics use to argue E is Eurasian.
F* being "African" is only theoretical or technical and doesn't account for any surviving presence of F diversity that we know of, the same thing can be said for the African origin of Haplogroup C (See Below).
quote:Taking into account a rare African D0 lineage and the timeframe summarized above, we have argued (Haber et al. 2019) that the initial splits within CT are likely to have occurred *in Africa before the exit*, and that three lineages, C, D and FT, were carried out by the ancestors of present-day non-Africans. Each of these three lineages subsequently expanded: C and D moderately, and FT massively
.
So the high J in Ethiopians is not an African specific clade, but is instead due to founder effect? I'm just trying to figure out the reason for the high frequency of J in the Horn. I know the J in Sudan is due to recent immigration from Arabs, ditto for North Africans, but from I understand Ethiopians don't have their J from the same source populations
Ethiopian J lineages are pretty diverse and quite old. I don't think there are any African specific Major lineages, like entire branches equivalent to a V88, an M1, or a U6.....in a way where we can track the presence of specific J1 outside of Africa as being attributed to Ethiopians.
Thanks for the links, didn't know the J lineages were very old and diverse.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Haplogroup J has been found at a frequency of approximately 18% in Ethiopians, with a higher prevalence among the Amhara, where it has been found to exist at levels as high as 35%, of which about 94% (17% of total) is of the type J1, while 6% (1% of total) is of J2 type.[64] On the other hand, 26% of the individuals sampled in the Arsi control portion of Moran et al. (2004) were found to belong to Haplogroup J.[60]
Another fairly prevalent lineage in Ethiopia belongs to Haplogroup A, occurring at a frequency of about 17% within Ethiopia, it is almost all characterized by its downstream sub lineage of A3b2 (M13). Restricted to Africa, and mostly found along the Rift Valley from Ethiopia to Cape Town, Haplogroup A represents the deepest branch in the Human Y- Chromosome phylogeny.
Portrait of Dawitt II (Lebnä-Dengel) c. 1552-1568 by Cristofano dell’Altissimo,
Dawit II
Dawit II (Ge'ez: ዳዊት; c. 1496 – 2 September 1540), also known by the macaronic name Wanag Segad (ወናግ ሰገድ, to whom the lions bow), better known by his birth name Lebna Dengel (Amharic: ልብነ ድንግል, essence of the virgin), was Emperor of Ethiopia from 1508 to 1540, whose political center and palace was in Shewa.[1]
A male line descendant of the medieval Amhara kings, and thus a member of the House of Solomon, he was the son of Emperor Na'od and Empress Na'od Mogesa. The important victory over the Adal's Emir Mahfuz may have given Dawit the appellation "Wanag Segad," which is a combination of Geʽez and the Harari terms.[2]
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Currently "prevalence (of J) among the Amhara, where it has been found to exist at levels as high as 35%". We can only guess what Dawit II's haplogroup was but I like the painting
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
I remember reading a paper years back showing a strong correlation between hg J frequency and proximity to the Red Sea coast, with Eritrean Tigre carrying a much higher concentration of J than Amhara.
By the way, recall how the Euronuts love to distort that old Tishkoff study on Amhara having 40% J to *all* Ethiopians.
^^ LOL So much for the claim of Ethiopians being "predominantly Eurasian".
Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
The Plaster these was one of the most extensively sampled studies in recent history. WE should email him and see if this data will ever be preproduced at high resolution.
2021 Mar 23. doi: 10.1038/s41598-021-85883-2 PMCID: PMC7987999 PMID: 33758277 Origin and diffusion of human Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267 Hovhannes Sahakyan
Abstract Human Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267 is a common male lineage in West Asia. One high-frequency region—encompassing the Arabian Peninsula, southern Mesopotamia, and the southern Levant—resides ~ 2000 km away from the other one found in the Caucasus. The region between them, although has a lower frequency, nevertheless demonstrates high genetic diversity. Studies associate this haplogroup with the spread of farming from the Fertile Crescent to Europe, the spread of mobile pastoralism in the desert regions of the Arabian Peninsula, the history of the Jews, and the spread of Islam. Here, we study past human male demography in West Asia with 172 high-coverage whole Y chromosome sequences and 889 genotyped samples of haplogroup J1-M267. We show that this haplogroup evolved ~ 20,000 years ago somewhere in northwestern Iran, the Caucasus, the Armenian Highland, and northern Mesopotamia. The major branch—J1a1a1-P58—evolved during the early Holocene ~ 9500 years ago somewhere in the Arabian Peninsula, the Levant, and southern Mesopotamia. Haplogroup J1-M267 expanded during the Chalcolithic, the Bronze Age, and the Iron Age. Most probably, the spread of Afro-Asiatic languages, the spread of mobile pastoralism in the arid zones, or both of these events together explain the distribution of haplogroup J1-M267 we see today in the southern regions of West Asia.
Among them, haplogroup J-M304 is found in the Caucasus/Iranian and Anatolian hunter-gatherers and farmers, but not in the Levantine ones. Unfortunately, so far aDNA studies are missing from the Arabian Peninsula and Mesopotamia, where haplogroup J-M304 is frequent nowadays. This haplogroup splits into J1-M267 and J2-M1729,11. While haplogroup J2-M172 is associated more with agriculture in the northern latitudes of West Asia, haplogroup J1-M267 has been connected with the spread of the pastoral economies in the West Asian arid zones23,24.
The distribution pattern of haplogroup J1-M267 is remarkable. It has two high-frequency regions—one in the Northeast Caucasus10,25,26 and another in the Arabian Peninsula, southern Mesopotamia, and the southern Levant
All Jewish lineages of haplogroup J1-M267 fall into the J1a1a1-P58 branch (Supplementary Fig. S1), which suggests their origin ultimately in the Levant. It is surprising to find two Jewish or close to Jewish J1a1a1-P58 lineages in the ancient Roman samples (~ 1.5–2.0 kya)48. This tells us about the migration of the Jewish people, at least of the bearers of the J1a1a1-P58 chromosomes, who travelled from the Levant to Europe via Italy, consistent with an earlier research29.
Haplogroup J1-M267 occurs frequently in North and East Africa (Fig. 1, Supplementary Table S7). Unfortunately, our North African collection includes only specimens from Egypt, where the demographic history of haplogroup J1-M267, in general, follows the pattern found in the Levant and the Arabian Peninsula. The only difference is that we haven’t found deeply diverging J1a1a1-P58 lineages in Egypt. In central and western regions of North Africa haplogroup J1-M267 may have a different history. Studies with STR haplotypes, some of them also with combined SNP markers, have reported different lineages of haplogroup J1-M267 in East Africa, more specifically in Ethiopia, Sudan, and Somalia8,23,37. Here, we have found at least three distinct lineages there. One of them likely belongs to a rare non-J1a1a1-P58 branch—J1a1a2-ZS4393—found among the Yemenis. The other two lineages belong to haplogroup J1a1a1-P58. One of them belongs to the widespread J1a1a1a1a1a1a1-L858 branch. The other is rare, found only in Omanis, Yemenis, Kuwaitis, and Ethiopians indicating a possible source. These lineages correspond to one or more migration episodes from West Asia to Ethiopia. Additional data may answer the question about the number of successful dispersals from West Asia to East Africa.
Studies explain the current distribution of haplogroup J1-M267 to be a result of the Arab conquests connected to the diffusion of Islam12,35,37. If this scenario would have been true in West Asia, then the phylogeny of haplogroup J1-M267 should have contained multiple coalescences between representatives of different Arab populations within the time, when the diffusion of Islam occurred, that is, in the last ~ 1.3 ky12,35,37. In reality, such coalescences occur mostly within the period of ~ 2 to ~ 5 kya (Supplementary File S1). Moreover, we don’t find a substantial increase of Ne after ~ 1.3 kya. These observations contradict the connection between the spread of this haplogroup and the spread of Islam in West Asia and Egypt, consistent with previous study10. Considering our sampling limitation, we avoid excluding the connection between the spread of Islam and haplogroup J1-M267 in central and western North Africa. But we argue that in West Asia the distribution of haplogroup J1-M267 was already shaped before the spread of Islam. This conclusion aligns with aDNA studies, reporting J1a1a1-P58 at least before ~ 2.5 kya in a wide area encompassing Syria in the north and Egypt in the south22,46,61,62,72.
Conclusions
Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267 evolved in the northern parts of West Asia around the LGM. A limited number of founders migrated south—to the Arabian Peninsula, the southern Levant, and southern Mesopotamia, where the J1a1a1-P58 branch evolved in the early Holocene. Haplogroup J1-M267 expanded during the Chalcolithic, the Bronze Age, and the Iron Age, coinciding with the spread of Afro-Asiatic languages combined with the diffusion of arid pastoralism in the desert regions of West Asia. The spread of Islam did not substantially affect the distribution of haplogroup J1-M267 in West Asia.
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A lot of detail in this recent article However this chart doesn't even show Africans except for Egypt
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: stop race baiting
How am I race baiting? I'm calling out racists who lie by distorting the data. In this case Tishkoff's 2004 data showing Amhara males to be ≈40% was deceitfully altered to say all Ethiopian males to be 40% J.
By the way, it seems the only one race-baiting is YOU in your sly covert way, posting that portrait of Dawitt II as if to imply his features are due to his haplogroup type.
But since you've apparently forgotten, here are some pictures of actual indigenous Arabians who have the highest frequencies of J1.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: stop race baiting
How am I race baiting? I'm calling out racists who lie by distorting the data. In this case Tishkoff's 2004 data showing Amhara males to be ≈40% was deceitfully altered to say all Ethiopian males to be 40% J.
you are calling out stuff nobody is posting and you have no quotes. This is 2023
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Why are you playing dumb?! I know you've seen the trolls posting the claim that Ethiopians are 40% Eurasian quite often. You can do a search in the archives. Are these trolls your friends or something. LOL Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
But since you've apparently forgotten, here are some pictures of actual indigenous Arabians who have the highest frequencies of J1.
No source given for frequency claim no caption locations or URL for pictures
you are just throwing out a lot of pictures here without referencing and who knows what haplogroup they carry
and what does "indigenous Arabians who have the highest frequencies of J1." pertain to? All Arabs or all people?
Posted by Forty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The origin of a haplogroup is suggested by
1) location of highest diversity 2) location of highest frequency 3) location of oldest human remains carrier found
Africa warps this because of competition
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^ that map is not useful without the caption
also needs article source and date. you heard Brother Ankh, it's time to source up
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Haplogroup J doesn't care about "Asia" and "Africa". It goes where it wants to. It makes it's own genetic "continent"
Posted by mightywolf (Member # 23402) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
....
But since you've apparently forgotten, here are some pictures of actual indigenous Arabians who have the highest frequencies of J1.
Yemen is quite diverse, with a large, long, and well-established Afro-Arab community. Afro-Arabs are Arabs of full or partial Black African descent. As a result, you can find Horner or Yoruba-like ancestry among Yemenites. Moreover, showing extremely tanned Bedouins, Afro-Yemenites, or visibly SSA-admixed individuals doesn‘t prove that the haplogroup J is African. Presenting images of random Yemenis and deciding that they are "indigenous" is not a scholarly approach. Once again, there is a sizable Afro-Arab community all over the Arab Peninsula.
Plus,there are a lot of Yemenis who look like that.
Mahra or Mehri man: Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Y-DNA haplogroups in populations of Sub-Saharan Africa
This wikipedia article makes reference to Hassan 2008 However what they list here are some percentages (calculated from that Hassan chart) and these percentages for 15 ethnic groups BUT the data if for each ethnic group within Sudan only
Contrasting patterns of Y chromosome and mtDNA variation in Africa: evidence for sex-biased demographic processes
Elizabeth T Wood, Daryn A Stover, Christopher Ehret, Giovanni Destro-Bisol, Gabriella Spedini, Howard McLeod, Leslie Louie, Mike Bamshad, Beverly I Strassmann, Himla Soodyall & Michael F Hammer
To investigate associations between genetic, linguistic, and geographic variation in Africa, we type 50 Y chromosome SNPs in 1122 individuals from 40 populations representing African geographic and linguistic diversity. We compare these patterns of variation with those that emerge from a similar analysis of published mtDNA HVS1 sequences from 1918 individuals from 39 African populations.
In this study, haplogroup J is concentrated in Afroasiatics (19.5%). Posted by mightywolf (Member # 23402) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite: .......So the high J in Ethiopians is not an African specific clade, but is instead due to founder effect? I'm just trying to figure out the reason for the high frequency of J in the Horn. I know the J in Sudan is due to recent immigration from Arabs, ditto for North Africans, but from I understand Ethiopians don't have their J from the same source populations [/QB]
The Y-DNA J1 is from the Caucasus Mountains, or the northwesterly mountains of Iran (Zagros). The fact is that migrants from Yemen and South Arabia brought lineages like J1 and T to Ethiopia or the Horn of Africa. Furthermore, given the frequency of Y-DNA J among Ethio-Semite populations, it makes sense that Ethio-Semite populations received an additional 20%–25% Semitic/Arabic admixture 3000 years ago.
According to Coon, this is a Yemeni soldier from the tribe of Khaulan, which goes back historically to Sabaean times. Metrically a perfect Mediterranean central type, this individual possesses a thin, aquiline nose of a type found frequently but by no means exclusively among Arabs.
So, people like this individual here:
migrated to modern-day Eritrea and the Northern Highlands of Ethiopia, where they intermarried with the local Cushitic people, giving rise to the current Ethio-Semite population.
Besides the hg J* or basal J in Socotra, they are likely all J1. There have been numerous studies on mainland Yemen, and no J* has been found using more advanced SNP panels. Posted by Elijah The Tishbite (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by mightywolf:
quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite: .......So the high J in Ethiopians is not an African specific clade, but is instead due to founder effect? I'm just trying to figure out the reason for the high frequency of J in the Horn. I know the J in Sudan is due to recent immigration from Arabs, ditto for North Africans, but from I understand Ethiopians don't have their J from the same source populations
The Y-DNA J1 is from the Caucasus Mountains, or the northwesterly mountains of Iran (Zagros). The fact is that migrants from Yemen and South Arabia brought lineages like J1 and T to Ethiopia or the Horn of Africa. Furthermore, given the frequency of Y-DNA J among Ethio-Semite populations, it makes sense that Ethio-Semite populations received an additional 20%–25% Semitic/Arabic admixture 3000 years ago.
According to Coon, this is a Yemeni soldier from the tribe of Khaulan, which goes back historically to Sabaean times. Metrically a perfect Mediterranean central type, this individual possesses a thin, aquiline nose of a type found frequently but by no means exclusively among Arabs.
So, people like this individual here:
migrated to modern-day Eritrea and the Northern Highlands of Ethiopia, where they intermarried with the local Cushitic people, giving rise to the current Ethio-Semite population.
Besides the hg J* or basal J in Socotra, they are likely all J1. There have been numerous studies on mainland Yemen, and no J* has been found using more advanced SNP panels. [/QB]
The archaeological evidence doesn't support a large immigration of people from Yemen/Arabia into the Horn, so it has to be some other explanation. J frequencies vary in certain Ethiopian groups. A small amount of merchants no doubt came into the but thats about it.
Posted by Forty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ that map is not useful without the caption
also needs article source and date. you heard Brother Ankh, it's time to source up
This caption
quote: Figure 1. A schematic view of the evolution of human biodiversity. Dots of different colors represent different genotypes, pie charts in panel E represent allele frequencies in five regions at the end of the process. Approximate dates for the five panels: (a,b), >60 000 years before present (BP); (c), 60 000 years BP; (d), 40 000 years BP; (e), 30 000 BP. A broader set of images is available at this site: http:// web.unife.it/progetti/genetica/Guido/index.php?lng=it&p=11. Collapse
You see what I mean? This study https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg201040 is saying C came from Africa. Wikipedia is saying D came from Africa yet neither has the frequency, diversity or old human remains.That image is from a generally unrelated FAQ yet it illustrates why Africa doesn't need to follow those rules.
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: It all depends on what geography one defines as African v Asian
Levant/South Arabia can be defined as Greater Africa than those subclades that evolved in ancient Greater Africa is African
Personally, I don't subscribe to Eurocentric defined maps or geography,,,
"The Middle East has always been an extension of north-eastern Africa to both grazing animals and the humans who hunted them..." — Spencer Wells
Arabian mammal fauna had stronger affinity with Africa in the Middle & Late Pleistocene than with the Levantine woodland zone... Much of Northeast Africa & Southwest Asia shared similar material culture, consistent with widespread dispersals of Homo sapiens." — Huw S. Groucutt
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The origin of a haplogroup is suggested by
1) location of highest diversity 2) location of highest frequency 3) location of oldest human remains carrier found
quote:Originally posted by Forty2Tribes:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ that map is not useful without the caption
also needs article source and date. you heard Brother Ankh, it's time to source up
This caption
quote: Figure 1. A schematic view of the evolution of human biodiversity. Dots of different colors represent different genotypes, pie charts in panel E represent allele frequencies in five regions at the end of the process. Approximate dates for the five panels: (a,b), >60 000 years before present (BP); (c), 60 000 years BP; (d), 40 000 years BP; (e), 30 000 BP. A broader set of images is available at this site: http:// web.unife.it/progetti/genetica/Guido/index.php?lng=it&p=11. Collapse
You see what I mean?
quote:
This study https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg201040 is saying C came from Africa. Wikipedia is saying D came from Africa yet neither has the frequency, diversity or old human remains.That image is from a generally unrelated FAQ yet it illustrates why Africa doesn't need to follow those rules.
you should quote varies things to support each argument you make and put article title and DATE also in case URL fails. You posted a diversity map with a lot of colored dots but I saw nothing that linked those to specific haplogroups and the colors did not match the indications of the other chart. Now you are saying other stuff so you need quotes and article title :
2010 Global distribution of Y-chromosome haplogroup C reveals the prehistoric migration routes of African exodus and early settlement in East Asia Hua Zhong,
Conclusions We demonstrated the phylogeographic distribution of one of the most ancient non-African Y-chromosome lineages, from which we inferred the prehistoric migration and expansion of the Hg C lineage. We propose that Hg C was derived from the African exodus and gradually colonized South Asia, Southeast Asia, Oceania and East Asia by a single Paleolithic migration from Africa to Asia and Oceania, which occurred more than 40 KYA. The prehistoric northward migration of Hg C in mainland East Asia likely followed the coastline and is consistent with the northward migration of other East Asian Y-chromosome haplogroups.
____________________________
In other words they theorize (but don't prove) that the original C carriers were in Africa. However now they aren't and today people living in Africa don't carry C
keep in mind also article is 12 years old. You can do confirmation bias and stop at the first thing you like or try to find what current opinion is and consider the origin may not be resolved
Look at the wiki and look at the bottom references to journal articles for something more recent. there is a lot of stuff there, dont just stop looking at articles because you found one you like politically https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_C-M130
So looking at this 2010 paper conclusion they still call C a "one of the most ancient non-African Y-chromosome lineages"
now read the whole thing and/or do a ctl + F and look up up some words, like "Africa"
quote: "The phylogeographic distribution pattern of Hg C supports a single coastal ‘Out-of-Africa’ route by way of the Indian subcontinent, which eventually led to the early settlement of modern humans in mainland Southeast Asia. The northward expansion of Hg C in East Asia started ∼40 thousand of years ago (KYA) along the coastline of mainland China and reached Siberia ∼15 KYA and finally made its way to the Americas."
The ethnically diversified populations in East Asia have been suggested as the descendants of ancient modern humans of African origin, having a significant role in subsequent migrations into Siberia and the Americas.
Hg C is prevalent in various geographical areas (Figures 1 and 2), including Australia (65.74%), Polynesia (40.52%), Heilongjiang of northeastern China (Manchu, 44.00%), Inner Mongolia (Mongolian, 52.17%; Oroqen, 61.29%), Xinjiang of northwestern China (Hazak, 75.47%), Outer Mongolia (52.80%) and northeastern Siberia (37.41%). Hg C is also present in other regions, extending longitudinally from Sardinia13 in Southern Europe all the way to Northern Colombia,32 and latitudinally from Yakutia24 of Northern Siberia and Alaska32 of Northern America to India, Indonesia and Polynesia, but absent in Africa.
So what is you conclusion now, Hap see came from Africa but none of it is in Africa presently so this means all these Asian people, China and so on are Africans?
Don't get hung up on the semantics of the geography of continents. Don't worry about "African" and "Non-African"
Look at your haplogroup and then look at the various places in the world it is in and the diversity The haplogroups don't care about the continent names
quote:Originally posted by Forty2Tribes: Wikipedia is saying D came from Africa yet neither has the frequency, diversity or old human remains.
Haplogroup D was formerly the name of the D lineage D-M174. Varying proposals exist regarding the origin of haplogroup DE, the parent of D, with some suggesting an African[2] and others an Asian origin.[3] But D-M174 was, and generally is, assumed to be of Asian origin and is exclusively found in Asia.
^ this is only the beginning of several paragraphs talking about the various theories, Asian or African origin for D, they are not sure
But, this is how it looks now (from the same page:
So with this distribution why should people of African descent care if 70,000 years ago the D founder was in Africa? They left
They can only guess remote origin of these older haplogroups
Look at that map, where D evolved, Africa or Asia is unknown but like every other haplogroup is is mainly Africa but with slight variation. Suppose the first C or D carrier was in Africa, is that a score for Africans of today of some kind? If they were originally in Africa now they are not
So what about haplogroup J ? I would say it's not impossible that originated in Africa. So if you are an African person of haplogroup J then you might consider the possibility. But if your haplogroup is E or A or B or R1b or whatever it doesn't have much to do with you. This is how I see it. And anything having to do with civilizations we know about is many thousands of years more recent So that aspect doesn't go many thousands of years earlier to prehistoric people
Here is C Europeans are more African on average than these C carriers
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
"This study reports a cranio-morphometric analysis of female human remains from China, Vietnam & Taiwan (16,000—5‚300 BP)... The people of the first layer were closer in facial morphology to modern Africans & Sri Lankan Veddah than to modern Asians & Europeans." — H. Matsumura
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite: I know its high in the African Horn and in North Africa as well as the Middle East, but is it African, Southwest Asian?
As others have said which are you referring to, the male or female haplogroup?
As for the Male Haplogroup, the most likely place of origin is between Africa and Arabia upwards f 40,000 years ago. However, when most papers talk about Haplogroup J, they aren't talking about the original parent haplogroup, which hasn't been assigned a name an only exists as a theoretical reference. Most papers and discussions of Haplogroup J are talking of downstream children such as J1 or J2. These two haplogroups are often discussed in association with the spread of the Neolithic into Europe, but that has absolutely nothing to do with when or where the base split occurred creating the parahaplogroup itself.
quote: The extent of differentiation of Hg J, observed both with the biallelic and microsatellite markers, points to the Middle East as its likely homeland. In this area, J-M172 and J-M267 are equally represented and show the highest degree of internal variation, indicating that it is most likely that these subclades also arose in the Middle East. However, their different frequencies in different Middle Eastern countries and in Europe suggest distinct demography processes, possibly in population groups that underwent different temporal expansions.
So because of the timing and location of the origin of haplogroup J, it is quite likely that various elements of the J lineage have been present in parts of North East Africa, Arabia, Levant and Iranian Plateau for a very long time. But there isn't enough ancient DNA from these regions to get a more detailed understanding of this haplogroup going back that far. And unfortunately, because of that, most people simply use the later data from the Neolithic to imply that the Caucasus is the origin of the lineage which is false. And this is the problem with using these models to speculate on where and when a specific lineage arose because it is impossible to do only with modern DNA.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
As for the Male Haplogroup, the most likely place of origin is between Africa and Arabia upwards f 40,000 years ago. However, when most papers talk about Haplogroup J, they aren't talking about the original parent haplogroup, which hasn't been assigned a name an only exists as a theoretical reference. Most papers and discussions of Haplogroup J are talking of downstream children such as J1 or J2.
Y DNA Haplogroup J does have a name, J-M304 It's ancestor is IJ
J-M304 then spilt into J1 and J2 aka J-M267 and J-M172. _______________________
Published: 23 March 2021 Origin and diffusion of human Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267
Y chromosome haplogroup J-M304 represents the major male lineage in West Asia today The 12f2a13 deletion and single nucleotide polymorphic (SNP) biallelic markers M3049 and P20914 define and characterize this haplogroup. It splits off from haplogroup IJ-M429 at ~ 45 thousand years ago (kya), while the time to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCA) of haplogroup J-M304 lineages is ~ 33 kya15,16. Studies associate haplogroup J-M304 with the spread of farming from the Near East to Europe11,17,18. Around the time of the Neolithic demographic transition3, the genome-wide ancestry of West Asian populations was geographically structured into three groups19,20,21,22. Among them, haplogroup J-M304 is found in the Caucasus/Iranian and Anatolian hunter-gatherers and farmers, but not in the Levantine ones. Unfortunately, so far aDNA studies are missing from the Arabian Peninsula and Mesopotamia, where haplogroup J-M304 is frequent nowadays. This haplogroup splits into J1-M267 and J2-M1729,11. While haplogroup J2-M172 is associated more with agriculture in the northern latitudes of West Asia, haplogroup J1-M267 has been connected with the spread of the pastoral economies in the West Asian arid zones
Studies with STR haplotypes, some of them also with combined SNP markers, have reported different lineages of haplogroup J1-M267 in East Africa, more specifically in Ethiopia, Sudan, and Somalia8,23,37. Here, we have found at least three distinct lineages there. One of them likely belongs to a rare non-J1a1a1-P58 branch—J1a1a2-ZS4393—found among the Yemenis. The other two lineages belong to haplogroup J1a1a1-P58. One of them belongs to the widespread J1a1a1a1a1a1a1-L858 branch. The other is rare, found only in Omanis, Yemenis, Kuwaitis, and Ethiopians indicating a possible source. These lineages correspond to one or more migration episodes from West Asia to Ethiopia. Additional data may answer the question about the number of successful dispersals from West Asia to East Africa.
Posted by Forty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ...Lioness is all over the place
My point was that people can theorize an African origin without frequency, diversity and ancient burials.
quote:you should quote varies things to support each argument you make and put article title and DATE also in case URL fails. You posted a diversity map with a lot of colored dots but I saw nothing that linked those to specific haplogroups and the colors did not match the indications of the other chart. Now you are saying other stuff so you need quotes and article title :
The map shows human geneotypes that developed in Africa yet many of them are more frequent, would model as more diverse outside of Africa and would be found in the oldest Eurasian burials. Since all of the European genotypes were born in Africa this means that all of the ancient European burials would have them. Do you see what I mean now?
quote: keep in mind also article is 12 years old. You can do confirmation bias and stop at the first thing you like or try to find what current opinion is and consider the origin may not be resolved
Look at the wiki and look at the bottom references to journal articles for something more recent. there is a lot of stuff there, dont just stop looking at articles because you found one you like politically https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_C-M130
No study that I know has ever found C in Africa. Nat Geo use to have it on their heat maps. The reason the study modeled an African origin is in relation to the clades that are near Africa. They probably have knowledge of an overlapping chromosome relationship with Africans and East Asians too.
Kinda looks like D
The age of the article is irrelevant. Unless you have a study with different results what difference does it make? They were hyper-focused on C. Its not like they found a bunch of unresolved CF.
This isn’t confirmation bias. I'm using two different examples. C doesn't have African clades. I wouldn’t expect Wiki to predict an African origin without an instance in Africa. Picture them claiming an African origin with zero frequency lolz. D0 is like 10 people. I'm surprised Wiki has an African origin for D. One had zero people and the other has 10. Its the same logic and technically there probably is more C in Africa than D. We both found maps with C but I have never seen a map with D.
quote: But its just a theory
Nobody is saying it isn’t. The origin of haplogroups are typically theoretical since we weren’t there to see them mutate. My point was that people can model an African origin without frequency, diversity and ancient burials.
quote: So with this distribution why should people of African descent care if 70,000 years ago the D founder was in Africa?
If(theory) C and D can do it without frequency, diversity, and burials so can J.
quote: So what about haplogroup J ? I would say it's not impossible that originated in Africa. So if you are an African person of haplogroup J then you might consider the possibility. But if your haplogroup is E or A or B or R1b or whatever it doesn't have much to do with you. This is how I see it. And anything having to do with civilizations we know about is many thousands of years more recent So that aspect doesn't go many thousands of years earlier to prehistoric people
Here is C Europeans are more African on average than these C carriers
Point remains.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Forty2Tribes:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The origin of a haplogroup is suggested by
1) location of highest diversity 2) location of highest frequency 3) location of oldest human remains carrier found
Africa warps this because of competition
No, Africa doesn't warp anything Panel (e) is the most recent of the maps at 30,000 years ago and there are haplogroups that have evolved since then In Panel(e) the fact that in Europe there is a pie chart with light green, orange and yellow and In Africa there are are dots which include the same light green, orange and yellow does not mean those are haplogroups or proxy for them
quote:Originally posted by Forty2Tribes: all of the European genotypes were born in Africa this means that all of the ancient European burials would have them. Do you see what I mean now?
they have common genotype but some mutations, we call haplogroups evolved inside Africa and others didn't -and the DNA comprising the haplogroup, the sex based DNA is only a small fraction of all the DNA (although it can be followed back in time)
Published: 14 July 2020 A Southeast Asian origin for present-day non-African human Y chromosomes Pille Hallast, Anastasia Agdzhoyan, Oleg Balanovsky, Yali Xue & Chris Tyler-Smith Human Genetics volume 140, pages299–307 (2021)
Abstract The genomes of present-day humans outside Africa originated almost entirely from a single out-migration ~ 50,000–70,000 years ago, followed by mixture with Neanderthals contributing ~ 2% to all non-Africans. However, the details of this initial migration remain poorly understood because no ancient DNA analyses are available from this key time period, and interpretation of present-day autosomal data is complicated due to subsequent population movements/reshaping. One locus, however, does retain male-specific information from this early period: the Y chromosome, where a detailed calibrated phylogeny has been constructed. Three present-day Y lineages were carried by the initial migration: the rare haplogroup D, the moderately rare C, and the very common FT lineage which now dominates most non-African populations. Here, we show that phylogenetic analyses of haplogroup C, D and FT sequences, including very rare deep-rooting lineages, together with phylogeographic analyses of ancient and [b]present-day non-African Y chromosomes, all point to East/Southeast Asia as the origin 50,000–55,000 years ago of all known surviving non-African male lineages (apart from recent migrants). This observation contrasts with the expectation of a West Eurasian origin predicted by a simple model of expansion from a source near Africa, and can be interpreted as resulting from extensive genetic drift in the initial population or replacement of early western Y lineages from the east, thus informing and constraining models of the initial expansion.
According to serial founder model, the earliest-branching non-African lineages are expected to expand and be present closer to Africa (a), but instead have expanded in East or Southeast Asia (b). Simplified Y tree is shown as reference for colours
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by mightywolf: Yemen is quite diverse, with a large, long, and well-established Afro-Arab community. Afro-Arabs are Arabs of full or partial Black African descent. As a result, you can find Horner or Yoruba-like ancestry among Yemenites. Moreover, showing extremely tanned Bedouins, Afro-Yemenites, or visibly SSA-admixed individuals doesn‘t prove that the haplogroup J is African. Presenting images of random Yemenis and deciding that they are "indigenous" is not a scholarly approach. Once again, there is a sizable Afro-Arab community all over the Arab Peninsula...
It’s not just Yemen but the Arabian peninsula in general that is quite diverse, though I should warn you that not all the black inhabitants of that region are “Afro-Arab”. Arabia lies along the same latitude as not only Egypt but Sudan and Eritrea with the Arabian plate once being connected to the Nubian plate.
So it should not be surprising that the indigenous or even aboriginal populations of the region should be no different in complexion from Africans across the Red Sea, even if they may not be of recent African ancestry. We have these descriptions of some Arabian tribes from early Western explorers:
“The inhabitants of this part of Arabia nearly all belong to the race of Himyar. Their complexion is almost as black as the Abyssinians,”-- Baron von Maltzan, 'Geography of Southern Arabia' (1872)
“[the Hamida are] small chocolate colored beings, stunted and thin… with mops of bushy hair… straggling beards , vicious eyes, frowning brows … armed with scabbards slung over the shoulder and Janbiyyah daggers…” a people “of the great Hejazi tribe that has kept his blood pure for the last 13 centuries…”-- Sir Richard Burton (1879)
“The people of Dhufar are of the Qahtan tribe, the sons of Joktan mentioned in Genesis: they are of Hamitic or African rather than Arab types…”--Arnold Wilson, The Geographical Journal (1927)
“the most prosperous tribe of all the Hamitic group, possessing innumerable camels, herds of cattle and the richest frankincense country. They resemble the Bisharin tribe of the Nubian desert. Men of big bone , they have long faces long narrow jaws, noses of a refined shape long curly hair and brown skin.”--Richmond Palmer (1929)
“Mahra is the Arab name for the Bedouin tribes who are different in appearance to other Arabs, having almost beardless faces, fuzzy hair and dark pigmentation – such as the Qarra, Mahra and Harasis… Also on “…the Qarra, Mahra and Harasis with parts of other tribes. The language is derived from the language of the Sabaeans, Minaeans and Himyarites. The Mahra with other Southern Arabian peoples seem aligned to the Hamitic race of north-east Africa… The Mahra are believed to be descended from the Habasha, who colonized Ethiopia in the first millennium BC”-- David Phillips, Peoples on the Move (2001)
“European observers have made much of their physical resemblance to Somalis and Ethiopians, but there is no historical evidence of any connections.”-- E. Peterson, 'Oman’s Diverse Society: Southern Oman'
“Mr. Baldwin draws a marked distinction between the modern Mahomedan Semitic population of Arabia and their great Cushite, Hamite, or Ethiopian predecessors. The former, he says, ‘are comparatively modern in Arabia,’ they have ‘appropriated the reputation of the old race,’ and have unduly occupied the chief attention of modern scholars.”-- Charles Hardwick (1872)
“Among ‘these Negroid features which may be counted normal in Arabs are the full,rather everted lips, shortness and width of nose, certain blanks in the bearded areas of the face between the lower lip and chin and on the cheeks; large, luscious,gazelle-like eyes, a dark brown complexion, and a tendency for the hair to grow in ringlets. Often the features of the more Negroid Arabs are derivatives of Dravidian India rather than inheritances of Hamitic Africa. Although the Arab of today is sharply differentiated from the Negro of Africa, yet there must have been a time when both were represented by a single ancestral stock; in no other way can the prevalence of certain Negroid features be accounted for in the natives of Arabia.”-- Henry Field, Anthropology Memoirs Volume 4 (1902)
“The Cushites. the first inhabitants of Arabia, arc known in the national traditions by the name of Adites, from their progenitor, who is called Ad, the grandson of Ham.”-- F. Lenormant (1922)
“There is a considerable mass of evidence to show that there was a very close resemblance between the proto-Egyptians and the Arabs before either became intermingled with Armenoid racial elements.”-- Elliot Smith, he Ancient Egyptians and the Origins of Civilization (1923)
“In Arabia the first inhabitants were probably a dark-skinned, shortish population intermediate, between the African Hamites and the Dravidians of India and forming a single African Asiatic belt with these.”-- Handbook of the Territories which form the Theater of Operations of the Iraq Petroleum Company Limited and its Associated Companies
Many European explorers have described the aboriginal populations variously as either “Hamitic”, “Veddoid” or even “Negrito”. The Mahra are just one of several South Semitic speaking groups still left in southern Arabia. By the way, all of the pictures I posted are NOT ‘Afro-Arabs’ but peoples from different Arabian tribes.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Mahra
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Shehri
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Harsusi
Soqotri
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Mightywolf, your pictures of fair-skinned Mahra are illustrative of the physical changes that can occur among a population. Just as modern fair-skinned Egyptians even Copts look different from their darker ancestors the same is true for southern Arabian peoples who have intermarried with lighter-skinned peoples from the north.
Old photos of Yafi tribesmen
Yafi tribesmen today
Yafi went from black, skinny, and glabrous (hairless) to white, stocky, and hairy in a few generations.
The same can be said about other Arabian tribes not just in the Yemen but even in Saudi Arabia proper.
Shammar of southern Nejd, Saudi Arabia
Banu Abs man, Hail/Nejd region - Saudi Arabia circa. 1930
Anaiza sharif (noble) of northern Nejd to Iraq and Syria
But getting back to the topic of Y haplogroup J, the two main variants are J1 and J2.
J1
J2 Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Mightywolf, your pictures of fair-skinned Mahra are illustrative of the physical changes that can occur among a population. Just as modern fair-skinned Egyptians even Copts look different from their darker ancestors the same is true for southern Arabian peoples who have intermarried with lighter-skinned peoples from the north.
Old photos of Yafi tribesmen
Yafi tribesmen today
Yafi went from black, skinny, and glabrous (hairless) to white, stocky, and hairy in a few generations.
The same can be said about other Arabian tribes not just in the Yemen but even in Saudi Arabia proper.
Shammar of southern Nejd, Saudi Arabia
Banu Abs man, Hail/Nejd region - Saudi Arabia circa. 1930
Anaiza sharif (noble) of northern Nejd to Iraq and Syria
If you don't mind me asking, what population movements within the last couple of centuries would have "whitened" people like the Yafi and Nejd? I do believe the first South Semitic speakers (e.g. the Sabaeans and their forerunners in southern Arabia) would have been quite dark, but they lived a long time before those photos were taken.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: If you don't mind me asking, what population movements within the last couple of centuries would have "whitened" people like the Yafi and Nejd? I do believe the first South Semitic speakers (e.g. the Sabaeans and their forerunners in southern Arabia) would have been quite dark, but they lived a long time before those photos were taken.
We know that major migrations into Arabia have occurred since at least the Late Bronze to Iron Ages with Babylonian and Assyrian colonies in the oases and in the Gulf coasts. The biggest population movement in my opinion to "whiten" the tribes of the inner desert and Yemen and Oman were the Iranians of the Sassanian Empire.
Sassanid Period (570–630 CE)
With the fall of the Sassanid Empire and the rise of Caliphate many of these white Iranian types became Arabized especially during the Abassid Empire and either married into Arabian tribes or became attached clients to the Arabian tribes. It is these Arabized Persians and other types that lightened up many Yemenis and others. By the way, I never bought into Dana's or rather Tariq Berry's and others claims of the prophet of Islam being "black". I believe there is a lot of evidence suggesting that Muhammad and his tribe were not originally Arabians but a north Semitic people from either Jordan or Syria if not Arabized and that the original Mecca of Islam lay somewhere in that region but I digress. The point is Islam made intermarriage more common and I remember Ausar saying how "white women" were popularly fetishized as exotic among Arabian men similarly as in India where fair-skin was idealized as exotic elite beauty.
Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: By the way, I never bought into Dana's or rather Tariq Berry's and others claims of the prophet of Islam being "black". I believe there is a lot of evidence suggesting that Muhammad and his tribe were not originally Arabians but a north Semitic people from either Jordan or Syria if not Arabized and that the original Mecca of Islam lay somewhere in that region but I digress.
My understanding is that Arabic as a language is Central Semitic, and therefore related to Levantine Semitic languages like Hebrew and Phoenician, rather than South Semitic like what the Sabaeans and other ancient South Arabians would have spoke. So the spread of Arabic throughout the peninsula would have come from the north, possibly from an area adjacent to the Levant. Maybe that was a factor in "whitening" the Arabian population in addition to the Sassanian migrations you mentioned?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Yeah. As I already mentioned there were waves of migration from the Levant and Mesopotamia into Arabia during the Bronze to Iron Ages. The linguistics is just one proof of this, not to mention the reference in Biblical Genesis speaks of the Hebrews (Ebrim--descendants of Eber) as divided into two branches-- Peleg progenitor of the northern Hebrews and Joktan progenitor of the southern Hebrews who made their way into Arabia as far south as Yemen, with the original inhabitants of the region said to be Hamites. On a linguistic note there is Alexander Militarev's hypothesis of a Cushitic substratum in Arabian languages especially South Semitic, as well as the mysterious language in the Sabean inscription from Marib showing Nilo-Saharan features.
The recent 'whitening' in Arabia especially around the Gulf and in Oman and Yemen is due Iranian population influence with many Iranians becoming Arabized and intermarrying with locals.
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yeah. As I already mentioned there were waves of migration from the Levant and Mesopotamia into Arabia during the Bronze to Iron Ages. The linguistics is just one proof of this, not to mention the reference in Biblical Genesis speaks of the Hebrews (Ebrim--descendants of Eber) as divided into two branches-- Peleg progenitor of the northern Hebrews and Joktan progenitor of the southern Hebrews who made their way into Arabia as far south as Yemen, with the original inhabitants of the region said to be Hamites. On a linguistic note there is Alexander Militarev's hypothesis of a Cushitic substratum in Arabian languages especially South Semitic, as well as the mysterious language in the Sabean inscription from Marib showing Nilo-Saharan features.
The recent 'whitening' in Arabia especially around the Gulf and in Oman and Yemen is due Iranian population influence with many Iranians becoming Arabized and intermarrying with locals.
I would believe Dana first about the color of Muhammad peace be upon him... before any conclusions reached by any posters on this board.
“…all the peoples settled in the Harra besides the Banu Sulaym are black. These tribes take slaves from among the Eshban to mind their flocks and for irrigation work, manual labor, and domestic service, and their wives from among the Byzantines… ” Al Jahiz of Iraq born 776 A.D. on the tribes of the region of Northwestern Arabia found in Al-Fakhar al-Sudan min al-Abyadh.
“Red, in the speech of the people from the Hijaz, means fair-complexioned and this color is rare amongst the Arabs. This is the meaning of the saying, ‘… a red man as if he is one of the slaves’. The speaker meant that his color is like that of the slaves who were captured from the Christians of Syria, Rome and Persia. ” From Al Dhahabi of Damascus Syria, in Seyar ‘Alam al-Nubala’a, (Biography of Eminent Nobles) cited on p. 55, The Unknown Arabs, 2002, by Tariq Berry.
“As for the black sheep, they are the Arabs. They will accept Islam and become many. The white sheep are the non-Arab Persians and the like. They will accept Islam and become so many that the Arabs will not be noticed amongst them.” From the 15th c. writer, El-Suyuti of Egypt, in Taarikh in El Khulafaa quoting Abu Bakr “a companion” of the Prophet’s interpreting his dream. Cited on p. 80, in The Unknown Arabs, 2002.
The irony of history is that early Arab-speaking historians and linguists made a distinction between the Arabs in Arabia and the fair-skinned peoples to the north, and contrary to what may be fact in our day, in the days of early Islam, those called “Arabs” looked down condescendingly on fair-skinned populations and commonly used the phrase “fair-skinned as a slave” when describing individuals in tribes in the peninsula that were pale in complexion. According to the text Iqd el Farid or the Precious Necklace of Ibn Rabbu or Rabbih of Cordoba (born 860 A.D. ), there were very few things as “rare” and “unthinkable” as a fair-skinned Arab. Of course, today due mainly to slavery and conversion of peoples to the “Arab” nationality, the opposite is thought to be true by many in the West.
This is a good 20 minute video on the SLAVIC slave ( redundant) also helped to whiten north africa/levant arabia aka greater africa
#Slavic #Slaves #History Introduction to the Slavic Slave Trade
Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: The linguistics is just one proof of this, not to mention the reference in Biblical Genesis speaks of the Hebrews (Ebrim--descendants of Eber) as divided into two branches-- Peleg progenitor of the northern Hebrews and Joktan progenitor of the southern Hebrews who made their way into Arabia as far south as Yemen, with the original inhabitants of the region said to be Hamites.
Speaking of Hamites, what do you make of the Bible classifying Canaanites as Hamitic? A lot of archaeologists nowadays argue that the Hebrews were an outgrowth of a Canaanite culture, and it appears the Phoenicians further north called themselves "Kena'ani" which is eerily similar to Canaanite. It seems a bit weird to me that the Hebrews would associate Canaanites with (mostly black) Hamites and themselves as Shemites when they were so closely related.
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
Without dismissing the role mediated by slavery, the geographical distribution of sub-Saharan African lineages in the Arabian Peninsula indicates a prehistoric entrance of a portion of these lineages that participated in building the primitive Arabian population." — K. Abu-Amero
"Around 14% of the Saudi Arabia Y-chromosome pool is typical of African biogeographic ancestry, 17% arrived to the area from the East across Iran, while the remainder 69% could be considered of direct or indirect Levantine ascription." — Khaled K Abu-Amero
"The first farmers of Israel & Jordan and Iran were strongly genetically differentiated... By the Bronze Age, these two populations and Anatolian-related farmers had mixed...with the hunter-gatherers of Europe to drastically reduce genetic differentiation." — Iosif Lazaridis
"Craniometric analyses have suggested an affinity between the Natufians & populations of north or sub-Saharan Africa...Y chromosome analysis shows the Natufians & successor Levantine Neolithic populations carried haplogroup E, of likely ultimate African origin." — Iosif Lazaridis
"Compared to earlier Levantines, Bronze Age Levantines are all shifted along PC2 toward ancient Iranians & Caucasians... confirming reports of post-Neolithic gene flows from prehistoric populations related to Iran or the Caucasus into the Levant." — Michal Feldman ( @feldman_mich )
"During the Late Chalcolithic and/or the Early Bronze Age, more than half of the Northern Levantine gene pool was replaced..." — Eirini Skourtanioti
Present-day Lebanese derive most of their genetic ancestry from the local Bronze Age population and from a Eurasian Steppe related admixture which occurred around 1,750–170 BCE" — Marc Haber ( @MarcHaber )
Posted by Forty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Forty2Tribes: [No, Africa doesn't warp anything Panel (e) is the most recent of the maps at 30,000 years ago and there are haplogroups that have evolved since then In Panel(e) the fact that in Europe there is a pie chart with light green, orange and yellow and In Africa there are are dots which include the same light green, orange and yellow does not mean those are haplogroups or proxy for them
I'm showing you the logic as to why it would warp your criteria. The geneotypes are a model that demonstrates how. It doesn't mean I'm correct as I was not there to test people. It does demonstrate how haplogroups could follow the same pattern as those genotypes where they are less frequent and would model as less diverse in Africa despite being born there.
quote: they have common genotype but some mutations, we call haplogroups evolved inside Africa and others didn't -and the DNA comprising the haplogroup, the sex based DNA is only a small fraction of all the DNA (although it can be followed back in time)
Notice that some of the genotypes are exclusive to Eurasia but few are. I think the same is true with haplogroups but there is a big butt coming. BUTT we overestimate it when we assume origin based on frequency. Africa warps the relevance of frequency for reasons that should be obvious before we even get to C and D. So I'll ask you again. Do you see why? Do you see what I mean? Do you see why Africa warps the relevance of frequency?
quote: Published: 14 July 2020 A Southeast Asian origin for present-day non-African human Y chromosomes Pille Hallast, Anastasia Agdzhoyan, Oleg Balanovsky, Yali Xue & Chris Tyler-Smith Human Genetics volume 140, pages299–307 (2021)
Abstract The genomes of present-day humans outside Africa originated almost entirely from a single out-migration ~ 50,000–70,000 years ago, followed by mixture with Neanderthals contributing ~ 2% to all non-Africans. However, the details of this initial migration remain poorly understood because no ancient DNA analyses are available from this key time period, and interpretation of present-day autosomal data is complicated due to subsequent population movements/reshaping. One locus, however, does retain male-specific information from this early period: the Y chromosome, where a detailed calibrated phylogeny has been constructed. Three present-day Y lineages were carried by the initial migration: the rare haplogroup D, the moderately rare C, and the very common FT lineage which now dominates most non-African populations. Here, we show that phylogenetic analyses of haplogroup C, D and FT sequences, including very rare deep-rooting lineages, together with phylogeographic analyses of ancient and [b]present-day non-African Y chromosomes, all point to East/Southeast Asia as the origin 50,000–55,000 years ago of all known surviving non-African male lineages (apart from recent migrants). This observation contrasts with the expectation of a West Eurasian origin predicted by a simple model of expansion from a source near Africa, and can be interpreted as resulting from extensive genetic drift in the initial population or replacement of early western Y lineages from the east, thus informing and constraining models of the initial expansion.
According to serial founder model, the earliest-branching non-African lineages are expected to expand and be present closer to Africa (a), but instead have expanded in East or Southeast Asia (b). Simplified Y tree is shown as reference for colours
quote:Presence of haplogroups C, D and F in 2302 present-day samples. The map demonstrates how many of the three haplogroups of interest (none, one, two, or all three) were found in different areas of the Old World and Near Oceania. Black dots indicate the locations of the studied populations
Look at what their theory is based on.
Frequency of all of them together.
The study I sourced found C near Africa and based an African origin on the clades. They actually did the hard work. We know where F is in Africa. Instead of studying the clades of African F which would really make their case if they were downstream from east Asian clades, they just overlayed 3 Wiki maps and sited a few old clades of D, C and F from other studies.
The founder's effect would make it easier to find D, C and F in distant populations regardless of origin.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: I would believe Dana first about the color of Muhammad peace be upon him... before any conclusions reached by any posters on this board.
“…all the peoples settled in the Harra besides the Banu Sulaym are black. These tribes take slaves from among the Eshban to mind their flocks and for irrigation work, manual labor, and domestic service, and their wives from among the Byzantines… ” Al Jahiz of Iraq born 776 A.D. on the tribes of the region of Northwestern Arabia found in Al-Fakhar al-Sudan min al-Abyadh.
“Red, in the speech of the people from the Hijaz, means fair-complexioned and this color is rare amongst the Arabs. This is the meaning of the saying, ‘… a red man as if he is one of the slaves’. The speaker meant that his color is like that of the slaves who were captured from the Christians of Syria, Rome and Persia. ” From Al Dhahabi of Damascus Syria, in Seyar ‘Alam al-Nubala’a, (Biography of Eminent Nobles) cited on p. 55, The Unknown Arabs, 2002, by Tariq Berry.
“As for the black sheep, they are the Arabs. They will accept Islam and become many. The white sheep are the non-Arab Persians and the like. They will accept Islam and become so many that the Arabs will not be noticed amongst them.” From the 15th c. writer, El-Suyuti of Egypt, in Taarikh in El Khulafaa quoting Abu Bakr “a companion” of the Prophet’s interpreting his dream. Cited on p. 80, in The Unknown Arabs, 2002.
The irony of history is that early Arab-speaking historians and linguists made a distinction between the Arabs in Arabia and the fair-skinned peoples to the north, and contrary to what may be fact in our day, in the days of early Islam, those called “Arabs” looked down condescendingly on fair-skinned populations and commonly used the phrase “fair-skinned as a slave” when describing individuals in tribes in the peninsula that were pale in complexion. According to the text Iqd el Farid or the Precious Necklace of Ibn Rabbu or Rabbih of Cordoba (born 860 A.D. ), there were very few things as “rare” and “unthinkable” as a fair-skinned Arab. Of course, today due mainly to slavery and conversion of peoples to the “Arab” nationality, the opposite is thought to be true by many in the West.
This is a good 20 minute video on the SLAVIC slave ( redundant) also helped to whiten north africa/levant arabia aka greater africa
#Slavic #Slaves #History Introduction to the Slavic Slave Trade
The Saqaliba (Slavic) slave trade was indeed a major factor in the whitening of Arabia, with Saqaliba women being highly prized concubines.
Again, the jury is out for me as for Muhammad being black since there are many Hadiths describing him as "white" and even his sahaba calling for a death penalty on those who call him black. The main point I want to make is that Muhammad did not even originate in Arabia but in a more northern area either Jordan or Iraq.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: Speaking of Hamites, what do you make of the Bible classifying Canaanites as Hamitic? A lot of archaeologists nowadays argue that the Hebrews were an outgrowth of a Canaanite culture, and it appears the Phoenicians further north called themselves "Kena'ani" which is eerily similar to Canaanite. It seems a bit weird to me that the Hebrews would associate Canaanites with (mostly black) Hamites and themselves as Shemites when they were so closely related.
A good source on the topic would be this book:
Goldenberg explains that the Land of Canaan was inhabited by a variety of peoples and tribes though its "Hamitic" identity was ascribed specifically to natives in the southern areas around the Negeb and Edom who were described as "dark-skinned" or "kushi". This well could be a memory of Natufian descendants in the area.
Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Goldenberg explains that the Land of Canaan was inhabited by a variety of peoples and tribes though its "Hamitic" identity was ascribed specifically to natives in the southern areas around the Negeb and Edom who were described as "dark-skinned" or "kushi". This well could be a memory of Natufian descendants in the area.
Makes sense. There's also the Shulammite woman in the Biblical "Song of Songs" book who describes herself as "black, but comely". She could very well be one of those Natufian descendants you mentioned.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ But again a reminder to the early genetic diversity of ancient Canaan and the effects of migrations recall the Carlos Flores et al 2005 on Bronze Age Dead Sea plain (Sodom & Gomorrah) inhabitants: Abstract: A high-resolution, Y-chromosome analysis using 46 binary markers has been carried out in two Jordan populations, one from the metropolitan area of Amman and the other from the Dead Sea, an area geographically isolated. Comparisons with neighboring populations showed that whereas the sample from Amman did not significantly differ from their Levantine neighbors, the Dead Sea sample clearly behaved as a genetic outlier in the region. Its high R1*-M173 frequency (40%) has until now only been found in northern Cameroonian samples. This contrasts with the comparatively low presence of J representatives (9%), which is the modal clade in Middle Eastern populations, including Amman. The Dead Sea sample also showed a high presence of E3b3a-M34 lineages (31%), which is only comparable to that found in Ethiopians. Although ancient and recent ties with sub-Saharan and eastern Africans cannot be discarded, it seems that isolation, strong drift, and/or founder effects are responsible for the anomalous Y-chromosome pool of this population. These results demonstrate that, at a fine scale, the smooth, continental clines detected for several Y-chromosome markers are often disrupted by genetically divergent populations.
Bronze Age Shasu Bedouin Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Yes, it seems what is todays Israel have been inhabited by several peoples over time. First Natufians, then neolithic peoples and then different groups with roots in Iran and Caucasus.
In Peki´in cave in northern Israel we find traces of people whose main Y-DNA haplogroup was T. In Bronze age Canaanite burials we find mostly Y-DNA haplogroup J. Earlier, in the neolithic E seems most common.
The people at Peki´n had a genetic disposition for light hair and light skin.
Graphical Abstract from the 2020 article
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Yes, it seems what is todays Israel have been inhabited by several peoples over time. First Natufians, then neolithic peoples and then different groups with roots in Iran and Caucasus.
In Peki´in cave in northern Israel we find traces of people whose main Y-DNA haplogroup was T. In Bronze age Canaanite burials we find mostly Y-DNA haplogroup J. Earlier, in the neolithic E seems most common.
The people at Peki´n had a genetic disposition for light hair and light skin.
Ancient DNA from Chalcolithic Israel reveals the role of population mixture in cultural transformation Éadaoin Harney, et al, 2018
Abstract The material culture of the Late Chalcolithic period in the southern Levant (4500–3900/3800 BCE) is qualitatively distinct from previous and subsequent periods. Here, to test the hypothesis that the advent and decline of this culture was influenced by movements of people, we generated genome-wide ancient DNA from 22 individuals from Peqi’in Cave, Israel. These individuals were part of a homogeneous population that can be modeled as deriving ~57% of its ancestry from groups related to those of the local Levant Neolithic, ~17% from groups related to those of the Iran Chalcolithic, and ~26% from groups related to those of the Anatolian Neolithic. The Peqi’in population also appears to have contributed differently to later Bronze Age groups, one of which we show cannot plausibly have descended from the same population as that of Peqi’in Cave. These results provide an example of how population movements propelled cultural changes in the deep past.
It has been estimated that the burial cave contained up to 600 individuals, making it the largest burial site ever identified from the Late Chalcolithic period in the Levant. Direct radiocarbon dating suggests that the cave was in use throughout the Late Chalcolithic (4500–3900 BCE), functioning as a central burial location for the region
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We find that the individuals buried in Peqi’in Cave represent a relatively genetically homogenous population. This homogeneity is evident not only in the genome-wide analyses but also in the fact that most of the male individuals (nine out of ten) belong to the Y-chromosome haplogroup T (see Supplementary Table 1), a lineage thought to have diversified in the Near East46. This finding contrasts with both earlier (Neolithic and Epipaleolithic) Levantine populations, which were dominated by haplogroup E24, and later Bronze Age individuals, all of whom belonged to haplogroup J
Haplogroup T-M184, also known as Haplogroup T, is a human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup. T1 (T-L206) – the numerically dominant primary branch of T-M184 – appears to have originated in Western Asia, and possibly spread from there into the East Africa, South Asia, Southern Europe and adjoining regions.
Haplogroup T is found at exceptionally high levels amongst the Dir and Isaaq clans in the Somaliland,[a][6] Djibouti, and Ethiopia.[7][8] it is also found at relatively high levels in specific populations in other parts of the world. These include Kurru, Bauris and Lodha in South Asia; among Toubou in Chad; and in a significant minority of Rajus and Mahli in South Asia; general Somalis, southern Egyptians and Fula (Fulbe) in north Cameroon; people from the Chian, Aquilani, Saccensi, Ibizan (Eivissenc) and Mirandese regions in Europe; Zoroastrians, Bakhtiaris in the Middle East, and Nenets and Kazakhs (especially Momyns and Argyns) in Siberia/Central Asia
Approximately 3% of Sephardi Jews and 2% of Ashkenazi Jews belong to haplogroup T.
The Toubou or Tubu (from Old Tebu, meaning "rock people"[9]) are an ethnic group native to the Tibesti Mountains[10] that inhabit the central Sahara in northern Chad, southern Libya and northeastern Niger. They live either as herders and nomads or as farmers near oases.
According to a study published in The American Journal of Human Genetics (Haber et al. 2016) that examined Y-DNA haplogroups from samples obtained from 75 Toubou men, haplogroups associated with paternal Eurasian ancestry were present at rates of 34% for R1b, 31% for T1a, and 1% for J1. The African associated haplogroup E-M78 were present at rates of 28%, while E-M81 appeared at a rate of 5%.[24] The study also found that 20-30% of Toubou autosomal DNA was Eurasian in origin, and their African ancestral component was best represented by Laal-speaking populations. The most likely source of this Eurasian DNA, according to the analysis, would be a population originating among Near Eastern farmers during the Neolithic Revolution. In contrast, Near Eastern populations scored African ancestry at a rate of 7%-14% (Yemen) to 0.7%-5% (Lebanese Christians). Other ethnic groups in the Chad, such as the Sara people and the Laal speakers had considerably lower Eurasian admixture, at only 0.3%-2% (Sara) and 1.25%-4.5% (Laal)
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Goldenberg explains that the Land of Canaan was inhabited by a variety of peoples and tribes though its "Hamitic" identity was ascribed specifically to natives in the southern areas around the Negeb and Edom who were described as "dark-skinned" or "kushi". This well could be a memory of Natufian descendants in the area.
Makes sense. There's also the Shulammite woman in the Biblical "Song of Songs" book who describes herself as "black, but comely". She could very well be one of those Natufian descendants you mentioned.
The most reliable evidence for its date is its language: Aramaic gradually replaced Hebrew after the end of the Babylonian exile in the late 6th century BCE, and the evidence of vocabulary, morphology, idiom and syntax clearly point to a late date, centuries after King Solomon to whom it is traditionally attributed. It has parallels with Mesopotamian and Egyptian love poetry from the first half of the 1st millennium, and with the pastoral idylls of Theocritus, a Greek poet who wrote in the first half of the 3rd century BCE; as a result of these conflicting signs, speculation ranges from the 10th to the 2nd centuries BCE, with the language supporting a date around the 3rd century.
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@Djehuti It's highly usual for an ancient text like the bible for a person to say that they are a color or for someone else to say they are a color
We might find references to "black skinned" but it it is highly rare to find a statement like this: "I am black" or "She was black" and not have any reference to skin in the statement (although in modern times this happens all the time and is how millions of people identify themselves - as a color)
But looking at this Solomon verse it seems fair to assume that whoever wrote it when describing a person as "black but..." means that whatever group they are from they would not call themselves black, otherwise she would not be pointing out that she was black, they would all be or most of them
We don't know exactly how the person would define "black" who wrote this verse in Song of Solomon.
Would it be safe to assume, that if by Middle Eastern location that whoever wrote this is a person some shade of brown?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
So in your estimation could people as dark as these young, if they lived in the time that Song of Solomon was written could they have written a statement that excluded them from being black?
I think it's safe to assume that whoever wrote Song of Solomon was not part of a group of people that were as light was the average Western European My question is what is the darkest they could have been and still not have called themselves "black"?
She is not the darkest Ethiopian or the lightest but her skin tone is common
I'm wondering when the Song says "black, but comely" if she would be dark enough from the perspective of whoever wrote that Her skin is pretty close to be similar to those Arab men
So I'm wondering to what group being black would be and exception to, but there are also metaphoric possibilities so we don't really know how literal it is
quote: Lamentations 4:7-8
7 Her Nazarites were purer than snow, they were whiter than milk, they were more ruddy in body than rubies, their polishing was of sapphire:
8 Their visage is blacker than a coal; they are not known in the streets: their skin cleaveth to their bones; it is withered, it is become like a stick.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ From what I recall, Talmudic Jewish writings similar to Arab Islamic writings describe their respective ethnic peoples as intermediate between 'black' southerners and 'white' northerners so you can say that these peoples were what we call today as "brown" instead of black or white. Tukuler cites some rabbinic texts suggesting that some (original?) Hebrews were darker and black as well but you should ask him for that. Again, I recommend Goldenberg's book. I've only read excerpts of it, but he makes a compelling case for the presence of blacks in the Middle East and their influence in Jewish, Christian, and Islamic traditions.
By the way, in regards to the Song of the Shulamite woman, the Hebrew conjuction word 'va' can mean either 'and' or 'but' depending on the context. Tukuler covered this before and there is an excellent article on it here: I am black BUT/AND comely Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Yes, it seems what is todays Israel have been inhabited by several peoples over time. First Natufians, then neolithic peoples and then different groups with roots in Iran and Caucasus.
In Peki´in cave in northern Israel we find traces of people whose main Y-DNA haplogroup was T. In Bronze age Canaanite burials we find mostly Y-DNA haplogroup J. Earlier, in the neolithic E seems most common.
The people at Peki´n had a genetic disposition for light hair and light skin.
From Ullinger and Turner II et ales. Bioarchaeological Analysis of Cultural Transition in the Southern Levant Using Dental Nonmetric Traits Nevertheless, in comparisons with Iron Age Italy, Dothan was more similar than Lachish to the Italian group and may have been more heavily influenced by (or influential upon) Europeans from the Mediterranean. Dothan also appears to have been phenetically more similar than Lachish to almost all other samples. Even though Lachish was a larger, more cosmopolitan city (Tufnell, 1953), it may have been more genetically isolated than Dothan.
and..
Using the mean measure of divergence (MMD) statistic to study dental affinity, this study found the Lacish sample to be most similar to a sample Dothan and then a sample from a tomb at St. Stephen’s monastery in Jerusalem, dating from approximately 438–611 AD. A Natufian sample was **most distant** from the Lacish sample.
And we have the recent study on the autosomal DNA of Philistines Abstract The ancient Mediterranean port city of Ashkelon, identified as “Philistine” during the Iron Age, underwent a marked cultural change between the Late Bronze and the early Iron Age. It has been long debated whether this change was driven by a substantial movement of people, possibly linked to a larger migration of the so-called “Sea Peoples.” Here, we report genome-wide data of 10 Bronze and Iron Age individuals from Ashkelon. We find that the early Iron Age population was genetically distinct due to a European-related admixture. This genetic signal is no longer detectible in the later Iron Age population. Our results support that a migration event occurred during the Bronze to Iron Age transition in Ashkelon but did not leave a long-lasting genetic signature.
quote:Although this study focuses on the Bronze Age, it also reports two new samples from the Iron Age—one from Megiddo and the other from Abel Beth Maacah. These two individuals show ancestry patterns that are very similar to those observed in the Middle and Late Bronze Age individuals (Figure 4), suggesting that the destruction at the end of the Bronze Age in the region did not necessarily lead to genetic discontinuity in each and every site. Notably, both Abel Beth Maacah and Megiddo are inland cities, and their genetic continuity throughout the transition from the Bronze Age to the Iron Age might not be representative of other sites in the region. For example, one of the two Iron Age populations in the Philistine coastal city of Ashkelon (ASH_IA1) showed evidence of mobility of populations related to southern Europe around the Bronze Age to Iron Age transition (Feldman et al., 2019).
Seems the genetic makeup throughout the Levant has differed over time and depending on place.
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