posted
I know its high in the African Horn and in North Africa as well as the Middle East, but is it African, Southwest Asian?
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite: I know its high in the African Horn and in North Africa as well as the Middle East, but is it African, Southwest Asian?
Which haplogroup J?-- Y-chromosome (paternal) or mitochondrial (maternal)?
As lioness shows, both are likely of Eurasian origin. Paternal hg J is strongly associated with Neolithic expansion into both Europe and Africa.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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*CT* was considered the "Out of Africa" lineage in older literature. Due to its older age and more resolution on the Human Y-Chrom *CF* is now considered the "Out of Africa lineage". People need to remember this when they also have grand delusions of Haplogroup R being "African" (42 ).
An even LONGER Eurasian Path to R: Root> AT> BT> CT> CF> FT> GHIJK> HIJK> IJK> K> MNOPS> MPS> P> QR> R.
If J or R was "African" what we would likely see is early African specific diversity on many or all the haplogroups leading down the path to R and J. They don't exist, instead that diversity and early split is mainly among "Southern Route" South East Asians. The only thing that exists is on the maternal side with African M1 and U6 - Two African specific clades of markers dominated by and nested within otherwise Eurasian maternal diversity. The only thing we *had* was V88...and due to the advancement of archaeogenetics we dont even have R-V88 anymore, maybe we have its subclade R-V69.
While anything is "Possible", there is no data nor evidence that shows these lineages being part of African continental long term genetic history. Someone more familiar with Haplogroup J can let us know if there are any African specific major subclades? I doubt it, but i don't study Eurasian markers.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
It all depends on what geography one defines as African v Asian
Levant/South Arabia can be defined as Greater Africa than those subclades that evolved in ancient Greater Africa is African
Personally, I don't subscribe to Eurocentric defined maps or geography,,,
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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posted
Beyoku, I think Y-hg F may be of African provenance since I read many years back both F* and I think F1 having a significant presence in Sudan among tribes in the Kordofan region. I don't think it can be attributed to Arabs because not only do the non-Arabized tribes carry it but the typical 'Arab' profile is hg J. Strangely there is no F in Arabia or the Levant but area in Eurasia known to have F is in India. This reminds me how mtDNA hg M1 is specific to East Africa particularly the Horn but also found as far north as Egypt, but that M* and most of the M offshoots are also in India and not even Southwest Asia.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Beyoku, I think Y-hg F may be of African provenance since I read many years back both F* and I think F1 having a significant presence in Sudan among tribes in the Kordofan region. I don't think it can be attributed to Arabs because not only do the non-Arabized tribes carry it but the typical 'Arab' profile is hg J. Strangely there is no F in Arabia or the Levant but area in Eurasia known to have F is in India. This reminds me how mtDNA hg M1 is specific to East Africa particularly the Horn but also found as far north as Egypt, but that M* and most of the M offshoots are also in India and not even Southwest Asia.
The EVIDENCE that would Support the origin of F* in African would not only be some isolated clades. It would be African specific diversity. F is about 55KYA. Where is African F3a and F3b.....or the F~ equivalent of African D0? They dont exist. What other African lineages are 55kya and have NO African diversity? Dont worry, i will wait.
F doesnt have a South West Asian distribution point, it has a South East Asian one. See the article above. In fact in terms of mtdna M and N, most of those Early subclades are not South West Asia either, they are south EAST Asian. The same arguments you (aand others) use to make an argument that J, F, or R could be "African" is what Eurocentrics use to argue E is Eurasian.
F* being "African" is only theoretical or technical and doesn't account for any surviving presence of F diversity that we know of, the same thing can be said for the African origin of Haplogroup C (See Below).
quote:Taking into account a rare African D0 lineage and the timeframe summarized above, we have argued (Haber et al. 2019) that the initial splits within CT are likely to have occurred *in Africa before the exit*, and that three lineages, C, D and FT, were carried out by the ancestors of present-day non-Africans. Each of these three lineages subsequently expanded: C and D moderately, and FT massively
.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Beyoku, I think Y-hg F may be of African provenance since I read many years back both F* and I think F1 having a significant presence in Sudan among tribes in the Kordofan region. I don't think it can be attributed to Arabs because not only do the non-Arabized tribes carry it but the typical 'Arab' profile is hg J. Strangely there is no F in Arabia or the Levant but area in Eurasia known to have F is in India. This reminds me how mtDNA hg M1 is specific to East Africa particularly the Horn but also found as far north as Egypt, but that M* and most of the M offshoots are also in India and not even Southwest Asia.
The EVIDENCE that would Support the origin of F* in African would not only be some isolated clades. It would be African specific diversity. F is about 55KYA. Where is African F3a and F3b.....or the F~ equivalent of African D0? They dont exist. What other African lineages are 55kya and have NO African diversity? Dont worry, i will wait.
F doesnt have a South West Asian distribution point, it has a South East Asian one. See the article above. In fact in terms of mtdna M and N, most of those Early subclades are not South West Asia either, they are south EAST Asian. The same arguments you (aand others) use to make an argument that J, F, or R could be "African" is what Eurocentrics use to argue E is Eurasian.
F* being "African" is only theoretical or technical and doesn't account for any surviving presence of F diversity that we know of, the same thing can be said for the African origin of Haplogroup C (See Below).
quote:Taking into account a rare African D0 lineage and the timeframe summarized above, we have argued (Haber et al. 2019) that the initial splits within CT are likely to have occurred *in Africa before the exit*, and that three lineages, C, D and FT, were carried out by the ancestors of present-day non-Africans. Each of these three lineages subsequently expanded: C and D moderately, and FT massively
.
So the high J in Ethiopians is not an African specific clade, but is instead due to founder effect? I'm just trying to figure out the reason for the high frequency of J in the Horn. I know the J in Sudan is due to recent immigration from Arabs, ditto for North Africans, but from I understand Ethiopians don't have their J from the same source populations
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite: So the high J in Ethiopians is not an African specific clade, but is instead due to founder effect? I'm just trying to figure out the reason for the high frequency of J in the Horn. I know the J in Sudan is due to recent immigration from Arabs, ditto for North Africans, but from I understand Ethiopians don't have there J from the same source populations
It might be from the people who spread South Semitic languages into Ethiopia from southern Arabia, giving rise to Ethio-Semitic.
quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite: So the high J in Ethiopians is not an African specific clade, but is instead due to founder effect? I'm just trying to figure out the reason for the high frequency of J in the Horn. I know the J in Sudan is due to recent immigration from Arabs, ditto for North Africans, but from I understand Ethiopians don't have there J from the same source populations
It might be from the people who spread South Semitic languages into Ethiopia from southern Arabia, giving rise to Ethio-Semitic.
That seems plausible and makes sense, but its also high in even some Cushitic speakers in Ethiopia.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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The EVIDENCE that would Support the origin of F* in African would not only be some isolated clades. It would be African specific diversity. F is about 55KYA. Where is African F3a and F3b.....or the F~ equivalent of African D0? They dont exist. What other African lineages are 55kya and have NO African diversity? Dont worry, i will wait.
F doesnt have a South West Asian distribution point, it has a South East Asian one. See the article above. In fact in terms of mtdna M and N, most of those Early subclades are not South West Asia either, they are south EAST Asian. The same arguments you (aand others) use to make an argument that J, F, or R could be "African" is what Eurocentrics use to argue E is Eurasian.
F* being "African" is only theoretical or technical and doesn't account for any surviving presence of F diversity that we know of, the same thing can be said for the African origin of Haplogroup C (See Below).
quote:Taking into account a rare African D0 lineage and the timeframe summarized above, we have argued (Haber et al. 2019) that the initial splits within CT are likely to have occurred *in Africa before the exit*, and that three lineages, C, D and FT, were carried out by the ancestors of present-day non-Africans. Each of these three lineages subsequently expanded: C and D moderately, and FT massively
.
Well I did say I think it could be African. I was never sure but you bring up a good point. Thanks for the paper, I'll read it when I get the time.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Beyoku, I think Y-hg F may be of African provenance since I read many years back both F* and I think F1 having a significant presence in Sudan among tribes in the Kordofan region. I don't think it can be attributed to Arabs because not only do the non-Arabized tribes carry it but the typical 'Arab' profile is hg J. Strangely there is no F in Arabia or the Levant but area in Eurasia known to have F is in India. This reminds me how mtDNA hg M1 is specific to East Africa particularly the Horn but also found as far north as Egypt, but that M* and most of the M offshoots are also in India and not even Southwest Asia.
The EVIDENCE that would Support the origin of F* in African would not only be some isolated clades. It would be African specific diversity. F is about 55KYA. Where is African F3a and F3b.....or the F~ equivalent of African D0? They dont exist. What other African lineages are 55kya and have NO African diversity? Dont worry, i will wait.
F doesnt have a South West Asian distribution point, it has a South East Asian one. See the article above. In fact in terms of mtdna M and N, most of those Early subclades are not South West Asia either, they are south EAST Asian. The same arguments you (aand others) use to make an argument that J, F, or R could be "African" is what Eurocentrics use to argue E is Eurasian.
F* being "African" is only theoretical or technical and doesn't account for any surviving presence of F diversity that we know of, the same thing can be said for the African origin of Haplogroup C (See Below).
quote:Taking into account a rare African D0 lineage and the timeframe summarized above, we have argued (Haber et al. 2019) that the initial splits within CT are likely to have occurred *in Africa before the exit*, and that three lineages, C, D and FT, were carried out by the ancestors of present-day non-Africans. Each of these three lineages subsequently expanded: C and D moderately, and FT massively
.
So the high J in Ethiopians is not an African specific clade, but is instead due to founder effect? I'm just trying to figure out the reason for the high frequency of J in the Horn. I know the J in Sudan is due to recent immigration from Arabs, ditto for North Africans, but from I understand Ethiopians don't have their J from the same source populations
Ethiopian J lineages are pretty diverse and quite old. I don't think there are any African specific Major lineages, like entire branches equivalent to a V88, an M1, or a U6.....in a way where we can track the presence of specific J1 outside of Africa as being attributed to Ethiopians.
posted
If D can be African based on D0 then J can be African. The only significant extant lineages between A and J are F and K if you combine them. F and K more common in Africa than African D though unlike African D we don't have much information on what where they are cladwise.
I could definitely see a northern Ethiopian origin producing this especially considering how much back migrated J is in the Sudan. You arguably need an African origin to produce this much J in Africa.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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1) location of highest diversity 2) location of highest frequency 3) location of oldest human remains carrier found
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Beyoku, I think Y-hg F may be of African provenance since I read many years back both F* and I think F1 having a significant presence in Sudan among tribes in the Kordofan region. I don't think it can be attributed to Arabs because not only do the non-Arabized tribes carry it but the typical 'Arab' profile is hg J. Strangely there is no F in Arabia or the Levant but area in Eurasia known to have F is in India. This reminds me how mtDNA hg M1 is specific to East Africa particularly the Horn but also found as far north as Egypt, but that M* and most of the M offshoots are also in India and not even Southwest Asia.
The EVIDENCE that would Support the origin of F* in African would not only be some isolated clades. It would be African specific diversity. F is about 55KYA. Where is African F3a and F3b.....or the F~ equivalent of African D0? They dont exist. What other African lineages are 55kya and have NO African diversity? Dont worry, i will wait.
F doesnt have a South West Asian distribution point, it has a South East Asian one. See the article above. In fact in terms of mtdna M and N, most of those Early subclades are not South West Asia either, they are south EAST Asian. The same arguments you (aand others) use to make an argument that J, F, or R could be "African" is what Eurocentrics use to argue E is Eurasian.
F* being "African" is only theoretical or technical and doesn't account for any surviving presence of F diversity that we know of, the same thing can be said for the African origin of Haplogroup C (See Below).
quote:Taking into account a rare African D0 lineage and the timeframe summarized above, we have argued (Haber et al. 2019) that the initial splits within CT are likely to have occurred *in Africa before the exit*, and that three lineages, C, D and FT, were carried out by the ancestors of present-day non-Africans. Each of these three lineages subsequently expanded: C and D moderately, and FT massively
.
So the high J in Ethiopians is not an African specific clade, but is instead due to founder effect? I'm just trying to figure out the reason for the high frequency of J in the Horn. I know the J in Sudan is due to recent immigration from Arabs, ditto for North Africans, but from I understand Ethiopians don't have their J from the same source populations
Ethiopian J lineages are pretty diverse and quite old. I don't think there are any African specific Major lineages, like entire branches equivalent to a V88, an M1, or a U6.....in a way where we can track the presence of specific J1 outside of Africa as being attributed to Ethiopians.
Haplogroup J has been found at a frequency of approximately 18% in Ethiopians, with a higher prevalence among the Amhara, where it has been found to exist at levels as high as 35%, of which about 94% (17% of total) is of the type J1, while 6% (1% of total) is of J2 type.[64] On the other hand, 26% of the individuals sampled in the Arsi control portion of Moran et al. (2004) were found to belong to Haplogroup J.[60]
Another fairly prevalent lineage in Ethiopia belongs to Haplogroup A, occurring at a frequency of about 17% within Ethiopia, it is almost all characterized by its downstream sub lineage of A3b2 (M13). Restricted to Africa, and mostly found along the Rift Valley from Ethiopia to Cape Town, Haplogroup A represents the deepest branch in the Human Y- Chromosome phylogeny.
Portrait of Dawitt II (Lebnä-Dengel) c. 1552-1568 by Cristofano dell’Altissimo,
Dawit II
Dawit II (Ge'ez: ዳዊት; c. 1496 – 2 September 1540), also known by the macaronic name Wanag Segad (ወናግ ሰገድ, to whom the lions bow), better known by his birth name Lebna Dengel (Amharic: ልብነ ድንግል, essence of the virgin), was Emperor of Ethiopia from 1508 to 1540, whose political center and palace was in Shewa.[1]
A male line descendant of the medieval Amhara kings, and thus a member of the House of Solomon, he was the son of Emperor Na'od and Empress Na'od Mogesa. The important victory over the Adal's Emir Mahfuz may have given Dawit the appellation "Wanag Segad," which is a combination of Geʽez and the Harari terms.[2]
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Currently "prevalence (of J) among the Amhara, where it has been found to exist at levels as high as 35%". We can only guess what Dawit II's haplogroup was but I like the painting
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
I remember reading a paper years back showing a strong correlation between hg J frequency and proximity to the Red Sea coast, with Eritrean Tigre carrying a much higher concentration of J than Amhara.
By the way, recall how the Euronuts love to distort that old Tishkoff study on Amhara having 40% J to *all* Ethiopians.
^^ LOL So much for the claim of Ethiopians being "predominantly Eurasian".
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
The Plaster these was one of the most extensively sampled studies in recent history. WE should email him and see if this data will ever be preproduced at high resolution.
2021 Mar 23. doi: 10.1038/s41598-021-85883-2 PMCID: PMC7987999 PMID: 33758277 Origin and diffusion of human Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267 Hovhannes Sahakyan
Abstract Human Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267 is a common male lineage in West Asia. One high-frequency region—encompassing the Arabian Peninsula, southern Mesopotamia, and the southern Levant—resides ~ 2000 km away from the other one found in the Caucasus. The region between them, although has a lower frequency, nevertheless demonstrates high genetic diversity. Studies associate this haplogroup with the spread of farming from the Fertile Crescent to Europe, the spread of mobile pastoralism in the desert regions of the Arabian Peninsula, the history of the Jews, and the spread of Islam. Here, we study past human male demography in West Asia with 172 high-coverage whole Y chromosome sequences and 889 genotyped samples of haplogroup J1-M267. We show that this haplogroup evolved ~ 20,000 years ago somewhere in northwestern Iran, the Caucasus, the Armenian Highland, and northern Mesopotamia. The major branch—J1a1a1-P58—evolved during the early Holocene ~ 9500 years ago somewhere in the Arabian Peninsula, the Levant, and southern Mesopotamia. Haplogroup J1-M267 expanded during the Chalcolithic, the Bronze Age, and the Iron Age. Most probably, the spread of Afro-Asiatic languages, the spread of mobile pastoralism in the arid zones, or both of these events together explain the distribution of haplogroup J1-M267 we see today in the southern regions of West Asia.
Among them, haplogroup J-M304 is found in the Caucasus/Iranian and Anatolian hunter-gatherers and farmers, but not in the Levantine ones. Unfortunately, so far aDNA studies are missing from the Arabian Peninsula and Mesopotamia, where haplogroup J-M304 is frequent nowadays. This haplogroup splits into J1-M267 and J2-M1729,11. While haplogroup J2-M172 is associated more with agriculture in the northern latitudes of West Asia, haplogroup J1-M267 has been connected with the spread of the pastoral economies in the West Asian arid zones23,24.
The distribution pattern of haplogroup J1-M267 is remarkable. It has two high-frequency regions—one in the Northeast Caucasus10,25,26 and another in the Arabian Peninsula, southern Mesopotamia, and the southern Levant
All Jewish lineages of haplogroup J1-M267 fall into the J1a1a1-P58 branch (Supplementary Fig. S1), which suggests their origin ultimately in the Levant. It is surprising to find two Jewish or close to Jewish J1a1a1-P58 lineages in the ancient Roman samples (~ 1.5–2.0 kya)48. This tells us about the migration of the Jewish people, at least of the bearers of the J1a1a1-P58 chromosomes, who travelled from the Levant to Europe via Italy, consistent with an earlier research29.
Haplogroup J1-M267 occurs frequently in North and East Africa (Fig. 1, Supplementary Table S7). Unfortunately, our North African collection includes only specimens from Egypt, where the demographic history of haplogroup J1-M267, in general, follows the pattern found in the Levant and the Arabian Peninsula. The only difference is that we haven’t found deeply diverging J1a1a1-P58 lineages in Egypt. In central and western regions of North Africa haplogroup J1-M267 may have a different history. Studies with STR haplotypes, some of them also with combined SNP markers, have reported different lineages of haplogroup J1-M267 in East Africa, more specifically in Ethiopia, Sudan, and Somalia8,23,37. Here, we have found at least three distinct lineages there. One of them likely belongs to a rare non-J1a1a1-P58 branch—J1a1a2-ZS4393—found among the Yemenis. The other two lineages belong to haplogroup J1a1a1-P58. One of them belongs to the widespread J1a1a1a1a1a1a1-L858 branch. The other is rare, found only in Omanis, Yemenis, Kuwaitis, and Ethiopians indicating a possible source. These lineages correspond to one or more migration episodes from West Asia to Ethiopia. Additional data may answer the question about the number of successful dispersals from West Asia to East Africa.
Studies explain the current distribution of haplogroup J1-M267 to be a result of the Arab conquests connected to the diffusion of Islam12,35,37. If this scenario would have been true in West Asia, then the phylogeny of haplogroup J1-M267 should have contained multiple coalescences between representatives of different Arab populations within the time, when the diffusion of Islam occurred, that is, in the last ~ 1.3 ky12,35,37. In reality, such coalescences occur mostly within the period of ~ 2 to ~ 5 kya (Supplementary File S1). Moreover, we don’t find a substantial increase of Ne after ~ 1.3 kya. These observations contradict the connection between the spread of this haplogroup and the spread of Islam in West Asia and Egypt, consistent with previous study10. Considering our sampling limitation, we avoid excluding the connection between the spread of Islam and haplogroup J1-M267 in central and western North Africa. But we argue that in West Asia the distribution of haplogroup J1-M267 was already shaped before the spread of Islam. This conclusion aligns with aDNA studies, reporting J1a1a1-P58 at least before ~ 2.5 kya in a wide area encompassing Syria in the north and Egypt in the south22,46,61,62,72.
Conclusions
Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267 evolved in the northern parts of West Asia around the LGM. A limited number of founders migrated south—to the Arabian Peninsula, the southern Levant, and southern Mesopotamia, where the J1a1a1-P58 branch evolved in the early Holocene. Haplogroup J1-M267 expanded during the Chalcolithic, the Bronze Age, and the Iron Age, coinciding with the spread of Afro-Asiatic languages combined with the diffusion of arid pastoralism in the desert regions of West Asia. The spread of Islam did not substantially affect the distribution of haplogroup J1-M267 in West Asia.
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A lot of detail in this recent article However this chart doesn't even show Africans except for Egypt
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: stop race baiting
How am I race baiting? I'm calling out racists who lie by distorting the data. In this case Tishkoff's 2004 data showing Amhara males to be ≈40% was deceitfully altered to say all Ethiopian males to be 40% J.
By the way, it seems the only one race-baiting is YOU in your sly covert way, posting that portrait of Dawitt II as if to imply his features are due to his haplogroup type.
But since you've apparently forgotten, here are some pictures of actual indigenous Arabians who have the highest frequencies of J1.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: stop race baiting
How am I race baiting? I'm calling out racists who lie by distorting the data. In this case Tishkoff's 2004 data showing Amhara males to be ≈40% was deceitfully altered to say all Ethiopian males to be 40% J.
you are calling out stuff nobody is posting and you have no quotes. This is 2023
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
^ Why are you playing dumb?! I know you've seen the trolls posting the claim that Ethiopians are 40% Eurasian quite often. You can do a search in the archives. Are these trolls your friends or something. LOL
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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But since you've apparently forgotten, here are some pictures of actual indigenous Arabians who have the highest frequencies of J1.
No source given for frequency claim no caption locations or URL for pictures
you are just throwing out a lot of pictures here without referencing and who knows what haplogroup they carry
and what does "indigenous Arabians who have the highest frequencies of J1." pertain to? All Arabs or all people?
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Haplogroup J doesn't care about "Asia" and "Africa". It goes where it wants to. It makes it's own genetic "continent"
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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But since you've apparently forgotten, here are some pictures of actual indigenous Arabians who have the highest frequencies of J1.
Yemen is quite diverse, with a large, long, and well-established Afro-Arab community. Afro-Arabs are Arabs of full or partial Black African descent. As a result, you can find Horner or Yoruba-like ancestry among Yemenites. Moreover, showing extremely tanned Bedouins, Afro-Yemenites, or visibly SSA-admixed individuals doesn‘t prove that the haplogroup J is African. Presenting images of random Yemenis and deciding that they are "indigenous" is not a scholarly approach. Once again, there is a sizable Afro-Arab community all over the Arab Peninsula.
Plus,there are a lot of Yemenis who look like that.
Y-DNA haplogroups in populations of Sub-Saharan Africa
This wikipedia article makes reference to Hassan 2008 However what they list here are some percentages (calculated from that Hassan chart) and these percentages for 15 ethnic groups BUT the data if for each ethnic group within Sudan only
Contrasting patterns of Y chromosome and mtDNA variation in Africa: evidence for sex-biased demographic processes
Elizabeth T Wood, Daryn A Stover, Christopher Ehret, Giovanni Destro-Bisol, Gabriella Spedini, Howard McLeod, Leslie Louie, Mike Bamshad, Beverly I Strassmann, Himla Soodyall & Michael F Hammer
To investigate associations between genetic, linguistic, and geographic variation in Africa, we type 50 Y chromosome SNPs in 1122 individuals from 40 populations representing African geographic and linguistic diversity. We compare these patterns of variation with those that emerge from a similar analysis of published mtDNA HVS1 sequences from 1918 individuals from 39 African populations.
In this study, haplogroup J is concentrated in Afroasiatics (19.5%). Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite: .......So the high J in Ethiopians is not an African specific clade, but is instead due to founder effect? I'm just trying to figure out the reason for the high frequency of J in the Horn. I know the J in Sudan is due to recent immigration from Arabs, ditto for North Africans, but from I understand Ethiopians don't have their J from the same source populations [/QB]
The Y-DNA J1 is from the Caucasus Mountains, or the northwesterly mountains of Iran (Zagros). The fact is that migrants from Yemen and South Arabia brought lineages like J1 and T to Ethiopia or the Horn of Africa. Furthermore, given the frequency of Y-DNA J among Ethio-Semite populations, it makes sense that Ethio-Semite populations received an additional 20%–25% Semitic/Arabic admixture 3000 years ago.
According to Coon, this is a Yemeni soldier from the tribe of Khaulan, which goes back historically to Sabaean times. Metrically a perfect Mediterranean central type, this individual possesses a thin, aquiline nose of a type found frequently but by no means exclusively among Arabs.
So, people like this individual here:
migrated to modern-day Eritrea and the Northern Highlands of Ethiopia, where they intermarried with the local Cushitic people, giving rise to the current Ethio-Semite population.
Besides the hg J* or basal J in Socotra, they are likely all J1. There have been numerous studies on mainland Yemen, and no J* has been found using more advanced SNP panels.Posts: 102 | From: private | Registered: Jul 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite: .......So the high J in Ethiopians is not an African specific clade, but is instead due to founder effect? I'm just trying to figure out the reason for the high frequency of J in the Horn. I know the J in Sudan is due to recent immigration from Arabs, ditto for North Africans, but from I understand Ethiopians don't have their J from the same source populations
The Y-DNA J1 is from the Caucasus Mountains, or the northwesterly mountains of Iran (Zagros). The fact is that migrants from Yemen and South Arabia brought lineages like J1 and T to Ethiopia or the Horn of Africa. Furthermore, given the frequency of Y-DNA J among Ethio-Semite populations, it makes sense that Ethio-Semite populations received an additional 20%–25% Semitic/Arabic admixture 3000 years ago.
According to Coon, this is a Yemeni soldier from the tribe of Khaulan, which goes back historically to Sabaean times. Metrically a perfect Mediterranean central type, this individual possesses a thin, aquiline nose of a type found frequently but by no means exclusively among Arabs.
So, people like this individual here:
migrated to modern-day Eritrea and the Northern Highlands of Ethiopia, where they intermarried with the local Cushitic people, giving rise to the current Ethio-Semite population.
Besides the hg J* or basal J in Socotra, they are likely all J1. There have been numerous studies on mainland Yemen, and no J* has been found using more advanced SNP panels. [/QB]
The archaeological evidence doesn't support a large immigration of people from Yemen/Arabia into the Horn, so it has to be some other explanation. J frequencies vary in certain Ethiopian groups. A small amount of merchants no doubt came into the but thats about it.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ that map is not useful without the caption
also needs article source and date. you heard Brother Ankh, it's time to source up
This caption
quote: Figure 1. A schematic view of the evolution of human biodiversity. Dots of different colors represent different genotypes, pie charts in panel E represent allele frequencies in five regions at the end of the process. Approximate dates for the five panels: (a,b), >60 000 years before present (BP); (c), 60 000 years BP; (d), 40 000 years BP; (e), 30 000 BP. A broader set of images is available at this site: http:// web.unife.it/progetti/genetica/Guido/index.php?lng=it&p=11. Collapse
You see what I mean? This study https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg201040 is saying C came from Africa. Wikipedia is saying D came from Africa yet neither has the frequency, diversity or old human remains.That image is from a generally unrelated FAQ yet it illustrates why Africa doesn't need to follow those rules.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: It all depends on what geography one defines as African v Asian
Levant/South Arabia can be defined as Greater Africa than those subclades that evolved in ancient Greater Africa is African
Personally, I don't subscribe to Eurocentric defined maps or geography,,,
"The Middle East has always been an extension of north-eastern Africa to both grazing animals and the humans who hunted them..." — Spencer Wells
Arabian mammal fauna had stronger affinity with Africa in the Middle & Late Pleistocene than with the Levantine woodland zone... Much of Northeast Africa & Southwest Asia shared similar material culture, consistent with widespread dispersals of Homo sapiens." — Huw S. Groucutt
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The origin of a haplogroup is suggested by
1) location of highest diversity 2) location of highest frequency 3) location of oldest human remains carrier found
quote:Originally posted by Forty2Tribes:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ that map is not useful without the caption
also needs article source and date. you heard Brother Ankh, it's time to source up
This caption
quote: Figure 1. A schematic view of the evolution of human biodiversity. Dots of different colors represent different genotypes, pie charts in panel E represent allele frequencies in five regions at the end of the process. Approximate dates for the five panels: (a,b), >60 000 years before present (BP); (c), 60 000 years BP; (d), 40 000 years BP; (e), 30 000 BP. A broader set of images is available at this site: http:// web.unife.it/progetti/genetica/Guido/index.php?lng=it&p=11. Collapse
You see what I mean?
quote:
This study https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg201040 is saying C came from Africa. Wikipedia is saying D came from Africa yet neither has the frequency, diversity or old human remains.That image is from a generally unrelated FAQ yet it illustrates why Africa doesn't need to follow those rules.
you should quote varies things to support each argument you make and put article title and DATE also in case URL fails. You posted a diversity map with a lot of colored dots but I saw nothing that linked those to specific haplogroups and the colors did not match the indications of the other chart. Now you are saying other stuff so you need quotes and article title :
2010 Global distribution of Y-chromosome haplogroup C reveals the prehistoric migration routes of African exodus and early settlement in East Asia Hua Zhong,
Conclusions We demonstrated the phylogeographic distribution of one of the most ancient non-African Y-chromosome lineages, from which we inferred the prehistoric migration and expansion of the Hg C lineage. We propose that Hg C was derived from the African exodus and gradually colonized South Asia, Southeast Asia, Oceania and East Asia by a single Paleolithic migration from Africa to Asia and Oceania, which occurred more than 40 KYA. The prehistoric northward migration of Hg C in mainland East Asia likely followed the coastline and is consistent with the northward migration of other East Asian Y-chromosome haplogroups.
____________________________
In other words they theorize (but don't prove) that the original C carriers were in Africa. However now they aren't and today people living in Africa don't carry C
keep in mind also article is 12 years old. You can do confirmation bias and stop at the first thing you like or try to find what current opinion is and consider the origin may not be resolved
Look at the wiki and look at the bottom references to journal articles for something more recent. there is a lot of stuff there, dont just stop looking at articles because you found one you like politically https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_C-M130
So looking at this 2010 paper conclusion they still call C a "one of the most ancient non-African Y-chromosome lineages"
now read the whole thing and/or do a ctl + F and look up up some words, like "Africa"
quote: "The phylogeographic distribution pattern of Hg C supports a single coastal ‘Out-of-Africa’ route by way of the Indian subcontinent, which eventually led to the early settlement of modern humans in mainland Southeast Asia. The northward expansion of Hg C in East Asia started ∼40 thousand of years ago (KYA) along the coastline of mainland China and reached Siberia ∼15 KYA and finally made its way to the Americas."
The ethnically diversified populations in East Asia have been suggested as the descendants of ancient modern humans of African origin, having a significant role in subsequent migrations into Siberia and the Americas.
Hg C is prevalent in various geographical areas (Figures 1 and 2), including Australia (65.74%), Polynesia (40.52%), Heilongjiang of northeastern China (Manchu, 44.00%), Inner Mongolia (Mongolian, 52.17%; Oroqen, 61.29%), Xinjiang of northwestern China (Hazak, 75.47%), Outer Mongolia (52.80%) and northeastern Siberia (37.41%). Hg C is also present in other regions, extending longitudinally from Sardinia13 in Southern Europe all the way to Northern Colombia,32 and latitudinally from Yakutia24 of Northern Siberia and Alaska32 of Northern America to India, Indonesia and Polynesia, but absent in Africa.
So what is you conclusion now, Hap see came from Africa but none of it is in Africa presently so this means all these Asian people, China and so on are Africans?
Don't get hung up on the semantics of the geography of continents. Don't worry about "African" and "Non-African"
Look at your haplogroup and then look at the various places in the world it is in and the diversity The haplogroups don't care about the continent names
quote:Originally posted by Forty2Tribes: Wikipedia is saying D came from Africa yet neither has the frequency, diversity or old human remains.
Haplogroup D was formerly the name of the D lineage D-M174. Varying proposals exist regarding the origin of haplogroup DE, the parent of D, with some suggesting an African[2] and others an Asian origin.[3] But D-M174 was, and generally is, assumed to be of Asian origin and is exclusively found in Asia.
^ this is only the beginning of several paragraphs talking about the various theories, Asian or African origin for D, they are not sure
But, this is how it looks now (from the same page:
So with this distribution why should people of African descent care if 70,000 years ago the D founder was in Africa? They left
They can only guess remote origin of these older haplogroups
Look at that map, where D evolved, Africa or Asia is unknown but like every other haplogroup is is mainly Africa but with slight variation. Suppose the first C or D carrier was in Africa, is that a score for Africans of today of some kind? If they were originally in Africa now they are not
So what about haplogroup J ? I would say it's not impossible that originated in Africa. So if you are an African person of haplogroup J then you might consider the possibility. But if your haplogroup is E or A or B or R1b or whatever it doesn't have much to do with you. This is how I see it. And anything having to do with civilizations we know about is many thousands of years more recent So that aspect doesn't go many thousands of years earlier to prehistoric people
Here is C Europeans are more African on average than these C carriers
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"This study reports a cranio-morphometric analysis of female human remains from China, Vietnam & Taiwan (16,000—5‚300 BP)... The people of the first layer were closer in facial morphology to modern Africans & Sri Lankan Veddah than to modern Asians & Europeans." — H. Matsumura
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Elijah The Tishbite: I know its high in the African Horn and in North Africa as well as the Middle East, but is it African, Southwest Asian?
As others have said which are you referring to, the male or female haplogroup?
As for the Male Haplogroup, the most likely place of origin is between Africa and Arabia upwards f 40,000 years ago. However, when most papers talk about Haplogroup J, they aren't talking about the original parent haplogroup, which hasn't been assigned a name an only exists as a theoretical reference. Most papers and discussions of Haplogroup J are talking of downstream children such as J1 or J2. These two haplogroups are often discussed in association with the spread of the Neolithic into Europe, but that has absolutely nothing to do with when or where the base split occurred creating the parahaplogroup itself.
quote: The extent of differentiation of Hg J, observed both with the biallelic and microsatellite markers, points to the Middle East as its likely homeland. In this area, J-M172 and J-M267 are equally represented and show the highest degree of internal variation, indicating that it is most likely that these subclades also arose in the Middle East. However, their different frequencies in different Middle Eastern countries and in Europe suggest distinct demography processes, possibly in population groups that underwent different temporal expansions.
So because of the timing and location of the origin of haplogroup J, it is quite likely that various elements of the J lineage have been present in parts of North East Africa, Arabia, Levant and Iranian Plateau for a very long time. But there isn't enough ancient DNA from these regions to get a more detailed understanding of this haplogroup going back that far. And unfortunately, because of that, most people simply use the later data from the Neolithic to imply that the Caucasus is the origin of the lineage which is false. And this is the problem with using these models to speculate on where and when a specific lineage arose because it is impossible to do only with modern DNA.
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As for the Male Haplogroup, the most likely place of origin is between Africa and Arabia upwards f 40,000 years ago. However, when most papers talk about Haplogroup J, they aren't talking about the original parent haplogroup, which hasn't been assigned a name an only exists as a theoretical reference. Most papers and discussions of Haplogroup J are talking of downstream children such as J1 or J2.
Y DNA Haplogroup J does have a name, J-M304 It's ancestor is IJ
J-M304 then spilt into J1 and J2 aka J-M267 and J-M172. _______________________
Published: 23 March 2021 Origin and diffusion of human Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267
Y chromosome haplogroup J-M304 represents the major male lineage in West Asia today The 12f2a13 deletion and single nucleotide polymorphic (SNP) biallelic markers M3049 and P20914 define and characterize this haplogroup. It splits off from haplogroup IJ-M429 at ~ 45 thousand years ago (kya), while the time to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCA) of haplogroup J-M304 lineages is ~ 33 kya15,16. Studies associate haplogroup J-M304 with the spread of farming from the Near East to Europe11,17,18. Around the time of the Neolithic demographic transition3, the genome-wide ancestry of West Asian populations was geographically structured into three groups19,20,21,22. Among them, haplogroup J-M304 is found in the Caucasus/Iranian and Anatolian hunter-gatherers and farmers, but not in the Levantine ones. Unfortunately, so far aDNA studies are missing from the Arabian Peninsula and Mesopotamia, where haplogroup J-M304 is frequent nowadays. This haplogroup splits into J1-M267 and J2-M1729,11. While haplogroup J2-M172 is associated more with agriculture in the northern latitudes of West Asia, haplogroup J1-M267 has been connected with the spread of the pastoral economies in the West Asian arid zones
Studies with STR haplotypes, some of them also with combined SNP markers, have reported different lineages of haplogroup J1-M267 in East Africa, more specifically in Ethiopia, Sudan, and Somalia8,23,37. Here, we have found at least three distinct lineages there. One of them likely belongs to a rare non-J1a1a1-P58 branch—J1a1a2-ZS4393—found among the Yemenis. The other two lineages belong to haplogroup J1a1a1-P58. One of them belongs to the widespread J1a1a1a1a1a1a1-L858 branch. The other is rare, found only in Omanis, Yemenis, Kuwaitis, and Ethiopians indicating a possible source. These lineages correspond to one or more migration episodes from West Asia to Ethiopia. Additional data may answer the question about the number of successful dispersals from West Asia to East Africa.
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ...Lioness is all over the place
My point was that people can theorize an African origin without frequency, diversity and ancient burials.
quote:you should quote varies things to support each argument you make and put article title and DATE also in case URL fails. You posted a diversity map with a lot of colored dots but I saw nothing that linked those to specific haplogroups and the colors did not match the indications of the other chart. Now you are saying other stuff so you need quotes and article title :
The map shows human geneotypes that developed in Africa yet many of them are more frequent, would model as more diverse outside of Africa and would be found in the oldest Eurasian burials. Since all of the European genotypes were born in Africa this means that all of the ancient European burials would have them. Do you see what I mean now?
quote: keep in mind also article is 12 years old. You can do confirmation bias and stop at the first thing you like or try to find what current opinion is and consider the origin may not be resolved
Look at the wiki and look at the bottom references to journal articles for something more recent. there is a lot of stuff there, dont just stop looking at articles because you found one you like politically https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_C-M130
No study that I know has ever found C in Africa. Nat Geo use to have it on their heat maps. The reason the study modeled an African origin is in relation to the clades that are near Africa. They probably have knowledge of an overlapping chromosome relationship with Africans and East Asians too.
Kinda looks like D
The age of the article is irrelevant. Unless you have a study with different results what difference does it make? They were hyper-focused on C. Its not like they found a bunch of unresolved CF.
This isn’t confirmation bias. I'm using two different examples. C doesn't have African clades. I wouldn’t expect Wiki to predict an African origin without an instance in Africa. Picture them claiming an African origin with zero frequency lolz. D0 is like 10 people. I'm surprised Wiki has an African origin for D. One had zero people and the other has 10. Its the same logic and technically there probably is more C in Africa than D. We both found maps with C but I have never seen a map with D.
quote: But its just a theory
Nobody is saying it isn’t. The origin of haplogroups are typically theoretical since we weren’t there to see them mutate. My point was that people can model an African origin without frequency, diversity and ancient burials.
quote: So with this distribution why should people of African descent care if 70,000 years ago the D founder was in Africa?
If(theory) C and D can do it without frequency, diversity, and burials so can J.
quote: So what about haplogroup J ? I would say it's not impossible that originated in Africa. So if you are an African person of haplogroup J then you might consider the possibility. But if your haplogroup is E or A or B or R1b or whatever it doesn't have much to do with you. This is how I see it. And anything having to do with civilizations we know about is many thousands of years more recent So that aspect doesn't go many thousands of years earlier to prehistoric people
Here is C Europeans are more African on average than these C carriers
Point remains.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The origin of a haplogroup is suggested by
1) location of highest diversity 2) location of highest frequency 3) location of oldest human remains carrier found
Africa warps this because of competition
No, Africa doesn't warp anything Panel (e) is the most recent of the maps at 30,000 years ago and there are haplogroups that have evolved since then In Panel(e) the fact that in Europe there is a pie chart with light green, orange and yellow and In Africa there are are dots which include the same light green, orange and yellow does not mean those are haplogroups or proxy for them
quote:Originally posted by Forty2Tribes: all of the European genotypes were born in Africa this means that all of the ancient European burials would have them. Do you see what I mean now?
they have common genotype but some mutations, we call haplogroups evolved inside Africa and others didn't -and the DNA comprising the haplogroup, the sex based DNA is only a small fraction of all the DNA (although it can be followed back in time)
Published: 14 July 2020 A Southeast Asian origin for present-day non-African human Y chromosomes Pille Hallast, Anastasia Agdzhoyan, Oleg Balanovsky, Yali Xue & Chris Tyler-Smith Human Genetics volume 140, pages299–307 (2021)
Abstract The genomes of present-day humans outside Africa originated almost entirely from a single out-migration ~ 50,000–70,000 years ago, followed by mixture with Neanderthals contributing ~ 2% to all non-Africans. However, the details of this initial migration remain poorly understood because no ancient DNA analyses are available from this key time period, and interpretation of present-day autosomal data is complicated due to subsequent population movements/reshaping. One locus, however, does retain male-specific information from this early period: the Y chromosome, where a detailed calibrated phylogeny has been constructed. Three present-day Y lineages were carried by the initial migration: the rare haplogroup D, the moderately rare C, and the very common FT lineage which now dominates most non-African populations. Here, we show that phylogenetic analyses of haplogroup C, D and FT sequences, including very rare deep-rooting lineages, together with phylogeographic analyses of ancient and [b]present-day non-African Y chromosomes, all point to East/Southeast Asia as the origin 50,000–55,000 years ago of all known surviving non-African male lineages (apart from recent migrants). This observation contrasts with the expectation of a West Eurasian origin predicted by a simple model of expansion from a source near Africa, and can be interpreted as resulting from extensive genetic drift in the initial population or replacement of early western Y lineages from the east, thus informing and constraining models of the initial expansion.
According to serial founder model, the earliest-branching non-African lineages are expected to expand and be present closer to Africa (a), but instead have expanded in East or Southeast Asia (b). Simplified Y tree is shown as reference for colours
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quote:Originally posted by mightywolf: Yemen is quite diverse, with a large, long, and well-established Afro-Arab community. Afro-Arabs are Arabs of full or partial Black African descent. As a result, you can find Horner or Yoruba-like ancestry among Yemenites. Moreover, showing extremely tanned Bedouins, Afro-Yemenites, or visibly SSA-admixed individuals doesn‘t prove that the haplogroup J is African. Presenting images of random Yemenis and deciding that they are "indigenous" is not a scholarly approach. Once again, there is a sizable Afro-Arab community all over the Arab Peninsula...
It’s not just Yemen but the Arabian peninsula in general that is quite diverse, though I should warn you that not all the black inhabitants of that region are “Afro-Arab”. Arabia lies along the same latitude as not only Egypt but Sudan and Eritrea with the Arabian plate once being connected to the Nubian plate.
So it should not be surprising that the indigenous or even aboriginal populations of the region should be no different in complexion from Africans across the Red Sea, even if they may not be of recent African ancestry. We have these descriptions of some Arabian tribes from early Western explorers:
“The inhabitants of this part of Arabia nearly all belong to the race of Himyar. Their complexion is almost as black as the Abyssinians,”-- Baron von Maltzan, 'Geography of Southern Arabia' (1872)
“[the Hamida are] small chocolate colored beings, stunted and thin… with mops of bushy hair… straggling beards , vicious eyes, frowning brows … armed with scabbards slung over the shoulder and Janbiyyah daggers…” a people “of the great Hejazi tribe that has kept his blood pure for the last 13 centuries…”-- Sir Richard Burton (1879)
“The people of Dhufar are of the Qahtan tribe, the sons of Joktan mentioned in Genesis: they are of Hamitic or African rather than Arab types…”--Arnold Wilson, The Geographical Journal (1927)
“the most prosperous tribe of all the Hamitic group, possessing innumerable camels, herds of cattle and the richest frankincense country. They resemble the Bisharin tribe of the Nubian desert. Men of big bone , they have long faces long narrow jaws, noses of a refined shape long curly hair and brown skin.”--Richmond Palmer (1929)
“Mahra is the Arab name for the Bedouin tribes who are different in appearance to other Arabs, having almost beardless faces, fuzzy hair and dark pigmentation – such as the Qarra, Mahra and Harasis… Also on “…the Qarra, Mahra and Harasis with parts of other tribes. The language is derived from the language of the Sabaeans, Minaeans and Himyarites. The Mahra with other Southern Arabian peoples seem aligned to the Hamitic race of north-east Africa… The Mahra are believed to be descended from the Habasha, who colonized Ethiopia in the first millennium BC”-- David Phillips, Peoples on the Move (2001)
“European observers have made much of their physical resemblance to Somalis and Ethiopians, but there is no historical evidence of any connections.”-- E. Peterson, 'Oman’s Diverse Society: Southern Oman'
“Mr. Baldwin draws a marked distinction between the modern Mahomedan Semitic population of Arabia and their great Cushite, Hamite, or Ethiopian predecessors. The former, he says, ‘are comparatively modern in Arabia,’ they have ‘appropriated the reputation of the old race,’ and have unduly occupied the chief attention of modern scholars.”-- Charles Hardwick (1872)
“Among ‘these Negroid features which may be counted normal in Arabs are the full,rather everted lips, shortness and width of nose, certain blanks in the bearded areas of the face between the lower lip and chin and on the cheeks; large, luscious,gazelle-like eyes, a dark brown complexion, and a tendency for the hair to grow in ringlets. Often the features of the more Negroid Arabs are derivatives of Dravidian India rather than inheritances of Hamitic Africa. Although the Arab of today is sharply differentiated from the Negro of Africa, yet there must have been a time when both were represented by a single ancestral stock; in no other way can the prevalence of certain Negroid features be accounted for in the natives of Arabia.”-- Henry Field, Anthropology Memoirs Volume 4 (1902)
“The Cushites. the first inhabitants of Arabia, arc known in the national traditions by the name of Adites, from their progenitor, who is called Ad, the grandson of Ham.”-- F. Lenormant (1922)
“There is a considerable mass of evidence to show that there was a very close resemblance between the proto-Egyptians and the Arabs before either became intermingled with Armenoid racial elements.”-- Elliot Smith, he Ancient Egyptians and the Origins of Civilization (1923)
“In Arabia the first inhabitants were probably a dark-skinned, shortish population intermediate, between the African Hamites and the Dravidians of India and forming a single African Asiatic belt with these.”-- Handbook of the Territories which form the Theater of Operations of the Iraq Petroleum Company Limited and its Associated Companies
Many European explorers have described the aboriginal populations variously as either “Hamitic”, “Veddoid” or even “Negrito”. The Mahra are just one of several South Semitic speaking groups still left in southern Arabia. By the way, all of the pictures I posted are NOT ‘Afro-Arabs’ but peoples from different Arabian tribes.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Mightywolf, your pictures of fair-skinned Mahra are illustrative of the physical changes that can occur among a population. Just as modern fair-skinned Egyptians even Copts look different from their darker ancestors the same is true for southern Arabian peoples who have intermarried with lighter-skinned peoples from the north.
Old photos of Yafi tribesmen
Yafi tribesmen today
Yafi went from black, skinny, and glabrous (hairless) to white, stocky, and hairy in a few generations.
The same can be said about other Arabian tribes not just in the Yemen but even in Saudi Arabia proper.
Shammar of southern Nejd, Saudi Arabia
Banu Abs man, Hail/Nejd region - Saudi Arabia circa. 1930
Anaiza sharif (noble) of northern Nejd to Iraq and Syria
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Mightywolf, your pictures of fair-skinned Mahra are illustrative of the physical changes that can occur among a population. Just as modern fair-skinned Egyptians even Copts look different from their darker ancestors the same is true for southern Arabian peoples who have intermarried with lighter-skinned peoples from the north.
Old photos of Yafi tribesmen
Yafi tribesmen today
Yafi went from black, skinny, and glabrous (hairless) to white, stocky, and hairy in a few generations.
The same can be said about other Arabian tribes not just in the Yemen but even in Saudi Arabia proper.
Shammar of southern Nejd, Saudi Arabia
Banu Abs man, Hail/Nejd region - Saudi Arabia circa. 1930
Anaiza sharif (noble) of northern Nejd to Iraq and Syria
If you don't mind me asking, what population movements within the last couple of centuries would have "whitened" people like the Yafi and Nejd? I do believe the first South Semitic speakers (e.g. the Sabaeans and their forerunners in southern Arabia) would have been quite dark, but they lived a long time before those photos were taken.
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: If you don't mind me asking, what population movements within the last couple of centuries would have "whitened" people like the Yafi and Nejd? I do believe the first South Semitic speakers (e.g. the Sabaeans and their forerunners in southern Arabia) would have been quite dark, but they lived a long time before those photos were taken.
We know that major migrations into Arabia have occurred since at least the Late Bronze to Iron Ages with Babylonian and Assyrian colonies in the oases and in the Gulf coasts. The biggest population movement in my opinion to "whiten" the tribes of the inner desert and Yemen and Oman were the Iranians of the Sassanian Empire.
Sassanid Period (570–630 CE)
With the fall of the Sassanid Empire and the rise of Caliphate many of these white Iranian types became Arabized especially during the Abassid Empire and either married into Arabian tribes or became attached clients to the Arabian tribes. It is these Arabized Persians and other types that lightened up many Yemenis and others. By the way, I never bought into Dana's or rather Tariq Berry's and others claims of the prophet of Islam being "black". I believe there is a lot of evidence suggesting that Muhammad and his tribe were not originally Arabians but a north Semitic people from either Jordan or Syria if not Arabized and that the original Mecca of Islam lay somewhere in that region but I digress. The point is Islam made intermarriage more common and I remember Ausar saying how "white women" were popularly fetishized as exotic among Arabian men similarly as in India where fair-skin was idealized as exotic elite beauty.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: By the way, I never bought into Dana's or rather Tariq Berry's and others claims of the prophet of Islam being "black". I believe there is a lot of evidence suggesting that Muhammad and his tribe were not originally Arabians but a north Semitic people from either Jordan or Syria if not Arabized and that the original Mecca of Islam lay somewhere in that region but I digress.
My understanding is that Arabic as a language is Central Semitic, and therefore related to Levantine Semitic languages like Hebrew and Phoenician, rather than South Semitic like what the Sabaeans and other ancient South Arabians would have spoke. So the spread of Arabic throughout the peninsula would have come from the north, possibly from an area adjacent to the Levant. Maybe that was a factor in "whitening" the Arabian population in addition to the Sassanian migrations you mentioned?
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