This is topic Artistic depictions of Northern Egyptians/Lower Egyptians in the Dynastic period? in forum Egyptology at EgyptSearch Forums.


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Posted by Ibis (Member # 23674) on :
 
I somewhat recently found out about a quote that said:

"the men of Egypt are mostly brown or black with a skinny desiccated look."-Ammianus Marcellinus

The person who brought up the quote on a site where I found it said that he had only visited the southern part of Egypt when he made that statement. This seems to be supported when one considers this quote

Arrian, Indica 6.9

"As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in color, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Egyptians."

So this quote seems to imply that Ancient Lower Egyptians looked like Northern Indians. I know North Indians tend to have fair skin so this was very interesting.


I decided to look at threads here on Lower Egypt, and there seems to be a stalemate in the sense that we can't recover much remains due to the harsh conditions of the delta. So I tried to see if there were any artistic depictions of lower Egyptians in the Dynastic period that supports them much looking different than the ones in the south. Unfortunately, the pictures didn't survive in the discussions I found. But I remember hearing mention of SOY Keita stating that the crania of the north was closer to the Mediterranean type, but of course given Africa's genetic diversity and variance this doesn't say much about their phenotypical appearance.

I suppose to sum things up does anyone have any depictions of lower Egyptians in the dynastic period that supports/rejects the Arrian quote? It would help my study a lot.
 

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Posted by Ibis (Member # 23674) on :
 
Also any other helpful accounts would be nice
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ This issue was discussed before!

First of all, the excuse that Ammianus Marcellinus only visited the south is absurd, as if he somehow bypassed the north which was actually the center of Greco-Roman culture in Egypt.

Second, the majority of North Indians are not as light-skinned or fair as Bollywood media makes it seem. In fact India has a history of foreign immigration and invasions and even then, it wasn't enough to lighten the populations as a whole.

Northern Indians







Thirdly, if you read Manilius' complete writings of his Astronomica you will see that he divides the world into black races and white races with the Mediterranean Sea as the division between them which was an ancient Greek view. The black peoples vary in shade or hue just like the white peoples. Egyptians fall in the former category.

The Greeks had the myth of Phaethon nearly crashing the sun the latitudec below the Mediterranean as an explanation of why the natives of the nótios éthni (southern nations) are black people as well as why there are many deserts there-- from the Sahara in Africa to the Thar in India.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:


Thirdly, if you read Manilius' complete writings of his Astronomica you will see that he divides the world into black races and white races with the Mediterranean Sea as the division between them which was an ancient Greek view. The black peoples vary in shade or hue just like the white peoples. Egyptians fall in the former category.

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That is false

Manilius never even uses the word black
in the whole of his writing
much less dividing the word into two (or more) races

Here words can be searched in Astronomica, the only work assumed to be written by him

https://www.loebclassics.com/browse?pageSize=10&sort=relevance&source=%2FLCL469%2F1977%2Fvolume.xml


Left side: Latin
Right side: English


Here he talks about the skin tones of various people
near the top of the lower page, 281 he talks about Indians and Egyptians

quote:

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Curly hair about the temples betrays the Syrian. The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it is a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ibis:

This seems to be supported when one considers this quote

Arrian, Indica 6.9

"As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in color, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Egyptians."

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quote:

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https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0239%3Abook%3D15%3Achapter%3D1%3Asection%3D13

(last paragraph)

Strabo, Geography 15.1.13


The inhabitants of the south resemble the Ethiopians in colour, but their countenances and hair are like those of other people. Their hair does not curl, on account of the humidity of the atmosphere. The inhabitants of the north resemble the Egyptians.

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quote:

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https://www.loebclassics.com/view/arrian-indica/1983/pb_LCL269.325.xml?readMode=recto

Arrian, Indica 6.9

The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia: the southern Indians are rather more like Ethiopians as they are black to look on, and their hair is black; only they are not so snub-nosed or woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians physically.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

Rough translation:
(from Astronomica)

Therefore, in various laws and various figures
It is arranged races of men, and of its own color
Nations are formed, and associated rights are formed by framework and they sign the matter according to a private treaty. Germany's birth through the giants rises, neighboring Gaul is less infected with the scarlet fever, the rougher the solid frame of Spain. Martia, the father of the city of Rome, put on a coat of arms And step by step Venus, mixing well, adjusts the frame,
and through the colored and fine nations of Greece
he prefers the gymnasium with a strong face and athletics, and Syria betrays the twisted hairs of the ages.

The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less toasted are Indians progeny; and the flooded land of the Egyptian Nile darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields now closer
and the medium makes a moderate tenor.
Phoebus the sandy soil of the Aferorum
dry up the peoples, and the name Mauretania
it has a mouth and bears its title in its own color.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:


I said Manilius was going on the very ancient premise of the Greeks that the peoples of the world are divided into dark and light races, with the Mediterranean Sea serving as the border between them!

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quote:

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Nothing is known about his life other than his occupations: Wendjebauendjed held an impressive list of military, administrative and religious titles, such as Hereditary prince, count, Seal-bearer of the King of Lower Egypt, God's father, General and Army leader, High steward (later High priest) of Khonsu, Priest of "Osiris lord of Mendes", Superintendent of the Prophets of all the gods and Superintendent of the Sole Friend.[1]
The fact that Wendjebauendjed held such important offices granted him the great honor to be buried in the royal necropolis even though he was not a royal personage. According to one of his titles, it is possible that he was a native of Mendes (Djedet).[1] His mummified remains shows that he was perhaps of Nubian descent and that he died around his fifties.[2]

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendjebauendjed


 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

Manilius lists the fairest to darkest among northern nations and darkest to lightest among the southern nations. Tukuler explained all this before due to your dishonest out of context quotation. Again, quit with the foolishness.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
if you read Manilius' complete writings of his Astronomica you will see that he divides the world into black races and white races with the Mediterranean Sea as the division between them which was an ancient Greek view. The black peoples vary in shade or hue just like the white peoples. Egyptians fall in the former category.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Apparently, you missed my point that Manilius like many Romans was using the context which the Greeks used-- that is the nations of the world were divided into northern and southern with the Mediterranean Sea being the central border between them. The northern nations are light-skinned while the southern are dark-skinned.

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quote:

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Originally posted by BrandonP:
As far as the OP is concerned, maybe look up where in Egypt particular ancient sculptures or artifacts were found to get a sense of what people in that area of Egypt might have looked like back. Sculptures excavated in northern Egyptian sites might give you an idea of what the ancient people in that area might have looked like, at least with regards to facial features.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ibis:

Artistic depictions of Northern Egyptians/Lower Egyptians in the Dynastic period?

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quote:

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The two kingdoms of Upper and Lower Egypt were united c. 3000 BC, but each maintained its own regalia: the hedjet or White Crown for Upper Egypt and the deshret or Red Crown for Lower Egypt. Thus, the pharaohs were known as the rulers of the Two Lands, and wore the pschent, a double crown, each half representing sovereignty of one of the kingdoms. Ancient Egyptian tradition credited Menes, now believed to be the same as Narmer, as the king who united Upper and Lower Egypt. On the Narmer Palette, the king is depicted wearing the Red Crown on one scene and the White crown in another, and thereby showing his rule over both Lands

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

Manilius lists the fairest to darkest among northern nations and darkest to lightest among the southern nations. Tukuler explained all this before due to your dishonest out of context quotation. Again, quit with the foolishness.

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I posted a quotation in a book page image
and then you posted the same quotation but less of it
Both translations says the same thing and you are now accusing me of taking something out of context, ridiculous. You posted the same quote but with less context!

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
if you read Manilius' complete writings of his Astronomica you will see that he divides the world into black races and white races with the Mediterranean Sea as the division between them which was an ancient Greek view. The black peoples vary in shade or hue just like the white peoples. Egyptians fall in the former category.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Apparently, you missed my point that Manilius like many Romans was using the context which the Greeks used-- that is the nations of the world were divided into northern and southern with the Mediterranean Sea being the central border between them. The northern nations are light-skinned while the southern are dark-skinned.

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I heard you twice the first time, now you are just repeating the same thing paraphrased
You are trying to fit a Roman writer's work into a modern racial dichotomy of "black" and "white" races and one wonders where you would place yourself in these categories but that is besides the point

Now you are using the same black/white checkerboard concept but using "light skinned" and "dark skinned" as proxies

You are so entrenched in the modern concept of dual color races that you can't imagine that the Romans did not have this two part racial dichotomy that they merely noted the complexion shades of different places.

It's disappointing how you cling to these modern 2 color race concepts

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ibis:
If we assume that Manilius didn't subscribe to a racial dichotomy of light skinned and dark skinned you have to admit it's odd that he first groups and describes populations we consider to be "light skinned" in the modern era, and then groups together and describes darker skinned populations together in the text. His choice of narrative flow seems to support this dichotomy.

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Read the above quote slowly and carefully
You have a writer who has his own complexion, so he is writing form his perspective of who he is and calling people dark compared to him.
Also as you can see in the quote he does not use the word "light"
He says Germany, towering high with tall off-spring, is blond: Gaul is tinged to a less degree with a near related redness
He doesn't even describe the German skin tone, he refers to their blond hair

This the the poem Astronomica
It is only describing people's complexions varying from place to place relative to his own
It does not say "there are two races of man, the dark ones and the light ones"

That is to try to project a simplistic modern racial stereotype brand of thinking, that one "race" is dark (compared to who is speaking)
and the other is not ( I can't use "light" because
it is not in the text)
And "dark" is subjective, there is no standard to determine a dividing line between "dark" and "not dark"
Also note in the text there is no paragraph break.
People quote it in the forum are adding a paragraph break on their own trying to create a separation

This is an ongoing deeply entrenched color = race
mentality brought about by the Europeans beginning in the 17th century, that people belong to 3-5 biologically defined "races"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism

The Greeks and Romans did not think like that and it's projection to think that someone merely describing skin tone compared to his own is constructing racial categories
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Ancient Greece certainly knew a black-white dichotomy expressed as Aithiopian and Skythian.
In Homer's Iliad has archetypal heroes for each, Memnon and Achilles. They envisaged skin
colour opposites in head and neck plastic art.



In this example both have ulotrichous hair, a term applied to textures from nappy to tightly
curly and everything in-between hair. Physical features are rather stereotypical emphasizing
the prime characteristics of each stock.



The common Roman male even wrote about black-white people poles in a Pompeii brothel prostitute preferal graffito
“Candide me docuit nigras odisse puellas...” under which was written “Odero septero sed invitus amabo.”
“A white girl taught me to hate black girls.” “You may hate them but you will return to them. --signed by Venus Physica of Pompei ”

The source is Gusman, P. Pompeii, pp. 56-7. 1900.
https://archive.org/details/pompeicityitslif00gusmiala/page/56/mode/2up?view=theater
Also per JA Rogers, Berkeley-Hill, Spectator, June 13, 1931, p. 934 explains, “Seneca in his Letters to Lucilius written in the first part of the first century A. D. mentions that numbers of Negroes were introduced into Rome at that time for the purposes of prostitution.”
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Psychoanalytic_Review/YFYTAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA251


The colour-blind antiquity world 'before colour prejudice' idea is a feeling saver invented by the quadroon Frank Snowden, who often snubbed contemporary black and colored scholars, that cannot stand up to historical investigative scrutiny. It's a ludicrous notion that people couldn't see obvious skin colour and physical form differences until almighty 18th century European whitey invented racial anthropology.
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Narmer's Palette is the earliest piece of art seemingly depicting what would later come to be known as Upper, Middle, and Lower Egyptians.



Serpopard Handlers and Smitten One.
South to mid Egyptians descendents of neolithic Nile dwellers with drying western desert refugees plus northbound Sudani settlers? and ?far northern mid Egyptian (Fayum to delta) inhabitant.




Sprawled or Fleeing Ones
?Primarily western delta Egyptians of west of delta and western desert ancestry?




"Ta Mehhu man" and Trampled-by-Bull
?Primarly eastern delta inhabitants/Egyptians of possible Sinai and/or Levant antecedents?

quote:

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Originally posted by BrandonP:
As far as the OP is concerned, maybe look up where in Egypt particular ancient sculptures or artifacts were found to get a sense of what people in that area of Egypt might have looked like back. Sculptures excavated in northern Egyptian sites might give you an idea of what the ancient people in that area might have looked like, at least with regards to facial features.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ibis:

If we assume that Manilius didn't subscribe to a racial dichotomy of light skinned and dark skinned you have to admit it's odd that he first groups and describes populations we consider to be "light skinned" in the modern era, and then groups together and describes darker skinned populations together in the text. His choice of narrative flow seems to support this dichotomy.

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quote:

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Originally posted by alTakruri:

You [Lioness] are refusing to read Manilius in context. He
places the Egyptians complexion between that of
the Indians and the Saharans.

Roman complexion is between Spaniards and Greeks.

There is no escaping the plain meaning of the text.

Standing between Egyptians and Romans in increasing
lightening of complexion are the dark Saharans and
Maures and the light Syrians and Greeks.

In Manilius' order white complexions from the most
light to the least light are
- Germania
- Gallia
- Hispania
- Romanis
- Graecia
- Syrium


In Manilius' order black complexions from the most
dark to the least dark are
- Aethiopes
- India
- Aegyptia
- Afrorum
- Mauretania

This leaves Afrorum, Mauretania, Syrium, and Graecia
complexions interspacning those of Egypt and Rome. That's
four intervening complexions. No way for Egypt and Rome
being near in complexion, while Egypt has only India
between it and Ethiopia.

Therefore by Manilius Egypt is very close to Ethiopia
in colour but very far from Rome in "skin pigmentation
adaptation" as you put it.

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As far as differences go in physical looks between Lower and Upper Egyptians, the former tend to be relatively lighter having a brown sugar hue while the latter tend to have a rich mahogany hue. Also in terms of craniofacial features, Lower Egyptians have larger rounder heads with sharper facial features ie. narrower noses, etc. While Upper Egyptians have narrower skulls and broader noses. Of course these are the general traits with exceptions occurring in each group.

As far as painted portraits of Lower Egyptians go, the most extensive I've seen come from Old Kingdom tombs like at Saqqara although, many especially statues have lost much of their original paint giving them much lighter complexions than they originally had.

Some good examples of Lower Egyptians:
















 

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Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 
This Pharao also comes from 21th dynasty Tanis. He does not look different from a lot of other ancient Egyptian portraits from different time periods. But as have been said, in the time of the 21th dynast Egypt as a state had existed for millennia so people had moved around and mixed.



The gold funerary mask of Psusennes I

quote:

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Psusennes I (Ancient Egyptian: pꜣ-sbꜣ-ḫꜥ-n-njwt; Greek Ψουσέννης) was the third pharaoh of the 21st Dynasty who ruled from Tanis between 1047 and 1001 BC. Psusennes is the Greek version of his original name Pasibkhanu or Pasebakhaenniut (in reconstructed Late Egyptian: /pəsiwʃeʕənneːʔə/), which means "The Star Appearing in the City" while his throne name, Akheperre Setepenamun, translates as "Great are the Manifestations of Ra, chosen of Amun."[2] He was the son of Pinedjem I and Henuttawy, Ramesses XI's daughter by Tentamun. He married his sister Mutnedjmet.

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quote:

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This article provides an overview of the first results from the archaeological fieldwork ­conducted at Tell el-Samara by a joint IFAO and Egyptian Ministry of Tourism and Antiquities mission. Located in the eastern Nile Delta, Tell el-Samara was a settlement inhabited from the late 5h millennium BCE to the end of the Early Dynastic period. The renewed archaeological investigations on the tell have uncovered the remains of one of the most ancient villages known so far in Egypt—providing detailed insights into the onset of Neolithic economy and sedentary village life in Lower Egypt. They have also revealed a continuous occupation sequence from the Neolithic period to the advent of the 1st Dynasty, which provides relevant data on the emergence and further development of a regional culture in the Nile Delta prior to the rise of a monarchy and the political unification of Egypt at the turn of the fourth and 3rd millennium BCE.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

As far as differences go in physical looks between Lower and Upper Egyptians, the former tend to be relatively lighter having a brown sugar hue while the latter tend to have a rich mahogany hue.


Some good examples of Lower Egyptians:

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ibis:

I suppose to sum things up does anyone have any depictions of lower Egyptians in the dynastic period that supports/rejects the Arrian quote? It would help my study a lot.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
Narmer's Palette is the earliest piece of art seemingly depicting what would later come to be known as Upper, Middle, and Lower Egyptians.



Serpopard Handlers and Smitten One.
South to mid Egyptians descendents of neolithic Nile dwellers with drying western desert refugees plus northbound Sudani settlers? and ?far northern mid Egyptian (Fayum to delta) inhabitant.




Sprawled or Fleeing Ones
?Primarily western delta Egyptians of west of delta and western desert ancestry?




"Ta Mehhu man" and Trampled-by-Bull
?Primarly eastern delta inhabitants/Egyptians of possible Sinai and/or Levant antecedents?

quote:

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Originally posted by BrandonP:
As far as the OP is concerned, maybe look up where in Egypt particular ancient sculptures or artifacts were found to get a sense of what people in that area of Egypt might have looked like back. Sculptures excavated in northern Egyptian sites might give you an idea of what the ancient people in that area might have looked like, at least with regards to facial features.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
As far as differences go in physical looks between Lower and Upper Egyptians, the former tend to be relatively lighter having a brown sugar hue while the latter tend to have a rich mahogany hue. Also in terms of craniofacial features, Lower Egyptians have larger rounder heads with sharper facial features ie. narrower noses, etc. While Upper Egyptians have narrower skulls and broader noses. Of course these are the general traits with exceptions occurring in each group.

As far as painted portraits of Lower Egyptians go, the most extensive I've seen come from Old Kingdom tombs like at Saqqara although, many especially statues have lost much of their original paint giving them much lighter complexions than they originally had.

Some good examples of Lower Egyptians:

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ibis:

I suppose to sum things up does anyone have any depictions of lower Egyptians in the dynastic period that supports/rejects the Arrian quote? It would help my study a lot.

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I don't believe that the artistic canon of the ancient Nile had a different way of depicting people from the Upper or Lower parts of the Nation. However, that doesn't mean that there wasn't variation in skin tone presented in the art, but that doesn't necessarily imply or represent a distinction between those from the North or those from the South of the country. From the Old Kingdom to the late period there are plenty of examples where they portrayed crowds or groups of people in alternating tones, either indicating a mixture of skin tones in general or simply for artistic contrast. You can't simply look at one or two statues and say if someone is from the lower or upper part of the country because we have numerous examples of art for the same person with various tones due to fading and other factors.

And for us today, trying to distinguish who is from the South of the country vs the North has to be based on text evidence vs simply looking at statues.

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I actually just may have found something that distinguishes the Northern And Southern Egyptian during the time of Amenhotep III's rule. It says that Ta-shema (Upper Egyptians) looked like this:



And then Ta-Mehu (Lower Egyptian)




This is the source site for those curious https://www.osirisnet.net/tombes/nobles/kheru/e_kherouef_04.htm

I'm not going to make any final conclusions until I can confirm it's validity.
 

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Posted by Forty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
 
I don't think its that complex

Diodorus Siculus made a similar distinction.
"-The majority of them, and especially those who dwell along the river, are black in color and have flat noses and woolly hair."

Note: Especially along the river in comparison to the Delta.

In the Ipuwer Papyrus which is dated near 1900 BC it was noted that foreign tribes of the desert had become like Egyptians. Ammianus Marcellinus lived during 300 AD. This was more than 2000 years after the Delta faced major immigration. This was after Lower Egypt faced major foreign occupation.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ True, the Delta has had influxes of foreigners especially from the time of the Hyksos, but both archaeology and historical documents show that foreigners have always been in the minority until the Islamic Era when, from the Ummayad Caliphate to the Ottoman, there were multiple periods of mass immigration.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ibis:

First and foremost I really appreciate you finding these examples, but looking at them closely authenticity of some of them looks questionable. The first two men have moustaches, when the customs back them would’ve demanded them to remain clean shaven. The 3rd image features men believed to be Dagi’s sons, if we assume this to be true, since Dagi was buried in Thebes wouldn’t that make those men Thebean? The last one seems to be the worst offender, Rahotep lacks a moustache in his other depictions and it seems to stick out like a sore thumb from the other AE statues from that same time period. I wouldn’t consider it to be an authentic depiction.

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You are probably correct about the 3rd photo which I simply copied from a google search on Old Kingdom murals but I'll correct it with something more accurate. As far as the authenticity of the other portraits, the depiction of mustaches is not unusual especially in Old Kingdom portraits. What makes Rahotep's statue suspect is the simple fact that hieroglyphs are found in the back of his seat and that of his wife which goes against artistic convention. Other than that, the statues themselves are typical of the time. It was during the Old Kingdom that Egyptologists notice an expansion of Delta peoples into middle and upper Egypt as noted by Batrawi.
 

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Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 
From Saqqara comes several beautiful decorated coffins and other works of art, some of them excavated by Zahi Hawass and his team, which is shown in the film Tombs of Egypt, the increcible mission which was sent on TV here recently.

Among the findings is this coffin from the New Kingdom, made of ceramics.



At the excavation Zahi Hawass and his team found 57 grave tunnels and 290 coffins and mummies, and also "a love story" between a pharaoh and an unknown queen".

A wooden coffin from around 600 BC



TOMBS OF EGYPT: THE ULTIMATE MISSION
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Well it's either fact or fiction that AEs considered facial hair bad hygiene, Ala fake beards for pharaohs instead of natural chin tufts. Ancient Sudanese also rid themselves of beard mustache sideburns
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ That's true, but from what I recall the practice of being clean shaven was more strictly enforced on the priesthood (including kings and other royals).

Plus Old Kingdom art is unique in that not only was it more realistic showing many unique (perhaps accurate) facial features and even rare depictions of deformed and handicapped people, but also the most depictions of facial hair. This makes me think this was an original artistic tradition perhaps native to Lower Egypt before the art became more uniform.

Modern Bohari (Northern Egyptians) in a tomb of their ancient kinsman.




 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
I have referencesd Cyril Aldred's works, Imgard Woldering, Peter Nevill, Arpag Mekhitarian, Hawass' Great Book, and others.

Please support with a plethora of art works that lower facial hair, the hygienic equivalent of bad breath or body odor, was not universally a no-no in AE since Narmer until the last Native dynasty. Do not include mourners. Thx.

Leave out distractions like speculations, physically challenged or malformed folk. Those face savers have nothing to do with the targeted point. "Nothing but the facts ..."
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ I never said it was universal, only that all the examples I've seen (other than Hyksos and other foreigners) all come from the Old Kingdom. I don't know about a "plethora" but I've already provided examples of Old Kingdom men bearing mustaches.

double statue of Nimaatsed


Rahotep


Hesira


Atjema

https://i0.wp.com/egypt-museum.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Standing-Statue-of-Priest-Atjema.jpg?ssl=1

Keki

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/2H50GHN/ancient-egyptian-statue-sculpture-of-keki-2350-2200-bc-6th-dynasty-limestone-louvre-museum-inv-a-41-or-n-42-man-loincloth-with-rounded-edge-fla-2H 50GHN.jpg

There are others.
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Please list them.

Hesy Re is a great supporting example due to his rank and portraiture at various stages of life.

I am learning something new thanks to you.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Like I said, I'm just going by observation. All the depictions of Egyptian men I've seen are cleanshaven except for those in the Old Kingdom. This seems to indicate to me that convention on facial hair was codified afterwards.

Your guess is as good as mine.
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
thx 4 schooling me

coincidental news feed
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/wellness/ancient-egyptian-hygiene-habits-that-will-make-you-grateful-to-be-living-in-the-2020s/ss-AA15zU5f?ocid=winp1taskbar
 

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Posted by Ibis (Member # 23674) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Like I said, I'm just going by observation. All the depictions of Egyptian men I've seen are cleanshaven except for those in the Old Kingdom. This seems to indicate to me that convention on facial hair was codified afterwards.

Your guess is as good as mine.

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Okay, if we establish that facial hair was acceptable in the old kingdom period, that still doesn't explain why Rahotep isn't shown with a moustache in any other depictions. That picture you posted of Hesy Re supports the statue being fake.


 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ I don't see how. Hesira is also mustached. There are are various other Old Kingdom figures bearing mustaches.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^ The above relief is Rahotep. He's saying the relief does not also have a moustache

However assuming that men who have moustaches always have moustaches
but if someone did not have a moustache but a there is a statue where they do,

a modern person who was pro-moustache could have painted a moustache on the statue
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Rahotep wears a moustache, which was popular during the Old Kingdom, but unfortunately cannot be seen on most statues, since it was usually painted on and the paint usually does not survive.

https://www.arce.org/statues-rahotep-and-nofret

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ibis:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ibis:

I suppose to sum things up does anyone have any depictions of lower Egyptians in the dynastic period that supports/rejects the Arrian quote? It would help my study a lot.

---

I don't believe that the artistic canon of the ancient Nile had a different way of depicting people from the Upper or Lower parts of the Nation. However, that doesn't mean that there wasn't variation in skin tone presented in the art, but that doesn't necessarily imply or represent a distinction between those from the North or those from the South of the country. From the Old Kingdom to the late period there are plenty of examples where they portrayed crowds or groups of people in alternating tones, either indicating a mixture of skin tones in general or simply for artistic contrast. You can't simply look at one or two statues and say if someone is from the lower or upper part of the country because we have numerous examples of art for the same person with various tones due to fading and other factors.

And for us today, trying to distinguish who is from the South of the country vs the North has to be based on text evidence vs simply looking at statues.

---

I actually just may have found something that distinguishes the Northern And Southern Egyptian during the time of Amenhotep III's rule. It says that Ta-shema (Upper Egyptians) looked like this:



And then Ta-Mehu (Lower Egyptian)




This is the source site for those curious https://www.osirisnet.net/tombes/nobles/kheru/e_kherouef_04.htm

I'm not going to make any final conclusions until I can confirm it's validity.

---

 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Doug is correct that in Egyptian cannon art when Egyptians are depicted, usually there is no distinction between Lower and Upper with there being a homogenization. However, when the artwork is localized such as Lower Egyptians in Saqqara or Upper Egyptians in Thebes, certain peculiarities do tend to stand out a bit. And I think these differences are more stressed in the website your cited where the pharaoh calls out domestic rebels by region of Egypt. The hieroglyphs are a little faded but from what I make out they do indeed say Ta-Shema and Ta-Mehu (Upper and Lower Egypt) respectively.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
It should be noted that on these particular images of
foreigners or Nine Bows groups, where there is a bound captive and a cartouche on top, that the cartouche is not always labeling the figure it's on top of
For instance in this different tomb, Ramses II


Name-Keftiu-at-Abydos-Ramses-Temple

^^The cartouche above has the hieroglyph for Keftiu
they were Aegeans, possibly Minoans or Cretans


but this is how Keftius are depicted in Egyptian art


that same figure from two photos back is here, 4th from the left

This is an Asiatic. In fact all of them here are images of Asiatic yet the cartouches each indicate different ethnicities of the nine bows
The Asiatic is used here as generic foreigner

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ibis:

I actually just may have found something that distinguishes the Northern And Southern Egyptian during the time of Amenhotep III's rule. It says that Ta-shema (Upper Egyptians) looked like this:



And then Ta-Mehu (Lower Egyptian)




This is the source site for those curious https://www.osirisnet.net/tombes/nobles/kheru/e_kherouef_04.htm

I'm not going to make any final conclusions until I can confirm it's validity. [/QB]

---

Your figures are from here
and there are different ones, not all Asiatic like I just showed

But what I'm saying is that when you see various captives like this with a cartouche with glyphs on top the figures behind them cannot be assumed to necessarily match

And you should realize the ram bound 9 bows are enemies and should not be looked at in isolation from the rest of the figures in this Upper Egypt Theban tomb Kheruef TT 192

https://www.osirisnet.net/tombes/nobles/kheru/e_kherouef_04.htm



This is likely a Nubian although the cartouches says
Ta-shema (Upper Egyptians)
and this is one of the arm bound enemies of the Nine Bows, scholars are not certain about exactly who the
Ta-shema are in these Nine Bows scenes.
I can go into further discrepancies also, between the glyphs and the figures
and in other tombs I can also show clear errors made by the artisans in some cases, labeling foreigners


this is likely an Asiatic although the cartouches says Ta-Mehu (Lower Egyptian)

There are thousands of tombs with wall scenes depicting Upper Egyptians and Lower Egyptians.
It does not make sense to look at Nine Bows captives
to try to find out what they looked like

This one is 18th dynasty and a couple of thousands years after the unification and I have seen a lot of art and have never noticed a skin tone difference between Upper and lower Egypt that you could detect in the art
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ The 9 Bows were a generic collective of the 9 most hostile enemies of united Kmt, though not all them were foreign! Indeed depending on the time period, there were rebels from one or both of the Two Lands that make up Egypt therefore having either Ta-Shemau or Ta-Mehu on the list of 9 Bows is not unusual nor would it be some sort of error or mistake.

So the figure labeled as Ta-Shemau is NOT Nubian but an Upper Egyptian and the figure Ta-Mehu is NOT Asiatic but an actual Lower Egyptian both are enemies of the crown and therefore state.

The Enemies of Ancient Egypt

The earliest depictions we have of Egyptian kings portray the motif of prostrate foreigners as a symbol of Egyptian supremacy over the rest of mankind. For example, the Narmer Palette shows the king in his efforts to rid the world of such aberrations as the "vile Asiatic". Here, we find the trampling of the "Nine Bows", as the Egyptian referred to their enemies, as a vivid embodiment of the king's supremacy over foreigners (and sometimes even other Egyptians). The figure "nine" represented three times three, which was the "plurality of Pluralities", thus designating the entirety of all enemies.

We went over this before, Lioness: Nine bows, Throne painting Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye at Tomb of Anen



There was another thread in which we discussed the members of the 9 Bows in the above picture. Hopefully someone can pull up the link but in the meanwhile here is another translation of the list (from right to left):

1. Haw-nbu (Island folk), 2. Satju (Nubians), 3. Ta-Shema (Upper Egyptians), 4. Skhtju-jm (Oasis Dwellers), 5. Ta-Mehu (Lower Egyptians), 6. Pdtju-Su (Eastern [desert] Archers), 7. Tehenu (Libyans), 8. Juntju-ztj (Nubians), 9. Mentiu nu-satet?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ The 9 Bows were a generic collective of the 9 most hostile enemies of united Kmt, though not all them were foreign! Indeed depending on the time period, there were rebels from one or both of the Two Lands that make up Egypt therefore having either Ta-Shemau or Ta-Mehu on the list of 9 Bows is not unusual nor would it be some sort of error or mistake.

So the figure labeled as Ta-Shemau is NOT Nubian but an Upper Egyptian and the figure Ta-Mehu is NOT Asiatic but an actual Lower Egyptian both are enemies of the crown and therefore state.

The Enemies of Ancient Egypt

The earliest depictions we have of Egyptian kings portray the motif of prostrate foreigners as a symbol of Egyptian supremacy over the rest of mankind. For example, the Narmer Palette shows the king in his efforts to rid the world of such aberrations as the "vile Asiatic". Here, we find the trampling of the "Nine Bows", as the Egyptian referred to their enemies, as a vivid embodiment of the king's supremacy over foreigners (and sometimes even other Egyptians). The figure "nine" represented three times three, which was the "plurality of Pluralities", thus designating the entirety of all enemies.

We went over this before, Lioness: Nine bows, Throne painting Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye at Tomb of Anen


https://www.osirisnet.net/tombes/nobles/kheru/photo/kherouef_tb_3310_3311.jpg

There was another thread in which we discussed the members of the 9 Bows in the above picture. Hopefully someone can pull up the link but in the meanwhile here is another translation of the list (from right to left):

1. Haw-nbu (Island folk), 2. Satju (Nubians), 3. Ta-Shema (Upper Egyptians), 4. Skhtju-jm (Oasis Dwellers), 5. Ta-Mehu (Lower Egyptians), 6. Pdtju-Su (Eastern [desert] Archers), 7. Tehenu (Libyans), 8. Juntju-ztj (Nubians), 9. Mentiu nu-satet?

---

I didn't say they were all foreigners.

Ta-Shemau as appear in Nine bows are not understood by scholars and it cannot be assumed a general term for Upper Egyptians in 9 bows scenes like this.
It's an upper Egyptian tomb, it cannot be assumed that they intend, "here this bound figure is one of us"

Additionally these cartouches should not be assumed as to correspond with the figures behind them



https://www.flickr.com/photos/manna4u/431486069/


(rows are read right to left)
.

.


___________________________________

Edited 1/1/2023, added text list of Nine Bows list
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ What is there not to understand. The mdu neter is clear. Are you saying the tomb artists made not one mistake but two regarding the 9 Bows??
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ What is there not to understand. The mdu neter is clear. Are you saying the tomb artists made not one mistake but two regarding the 9 Bows??

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti:
[qb] ^ The 9 Bows were a generic collective of the 9 most hostile enemies of united Kmt, though not all them were foreign! Indeed depending on the time period, there were rebels from one or both of the Two Lands that make up Egypt therefore having either Ta-Shemau or Ta-Mehu on the list of 9 Bows is not unusual nor would it be some sort of error or mistake.

So the figure labeled as Ta-Shemau is NOT Nubian but an Upper Egyptian and the figure Ta-Mehu is NOT Asiatic but an actual Lower Egyptian both are enemies of the crown and therefore state.

The Enemies of Ancient Egypt

The earliest depictions we have of Egyptian kings portray the motif of prostrate foreigners as a symbol of Egyptian supremacy over the rest of mankind. For example, the Narmer Palette shows the king in his efforts to rid the world of such aberrations as the "vile Asiatic". Here, we find the trampling of the "Nine Bows", as the Egyptian referred to their enemies, as a vivid embodiment of the king's supremacy over foreigners (and sometimes even other Egyptians). The figure "nine" represented three times three, which was the "plurality of Pluralities", thus designating the entirety of all enemies.

We went over this before, Lioness: Nine bows, Throne painting Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye at Tomb of Anen




There was another thread in which we discussed the members of the 9 Bows in the above picture. Hopefully someone can pull up the link but in the meanwhile here is another translation of the list (from right to left):

1. Haw-nbu (Island folk), 2. Satju (Nubians), 3. Ta-Shema (Upper Egyptians), 4. Skhtju-jm (Oasis Dwellers), 5. Ta-Mehu (Lower Egyptians), 6. Pdtju-Su (Eastern [desert] Archers), 7. Tehenu (Libyans), 8. Juntju-ztj (Nubians), 9. Mentiu nu-satet?

---

I'm clearing up some confusion here putting in the right picture

The Ta-Shema and Ta-Mehu brought up by Ibis are at Kheruef not Tomeb of Anen which is similar you reference here. However the Nines Bows text order is the same in tombs
However you can go right to left or left to rights as per the the figures, you will see some fit and some don't
This means the regular order of the groups in text is separate
from the irregular order of the pictures of the captives
You have to slowly look at the order, some match the text, others clearly don't
My guess is the when they depict enemies the order is loose. They have these enemies all over the place in some of these 18th dynasty spots.
The text, in my view is read separately to the degree they are not intending to label each foreigner
strictly
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
How about another example for further reference?

https://www.ancient-egypt.co.uk/fitzwilliam/index_2.htm

The Nine Bows
This is an ancient term that collectively referred to the enemies of Ancient Egypt. The name could originate from the use of Bows by their enemies and the ritual breaking of bows of defeated foes - but the actual reason is not known. The actual enemies that this refers could be adjusted to reflect the current contact with neighbours and their relations with them - we can include Asiatic, Sand Dwellers, Nubians and even lower and upper Egyptians.

The block, a base for a statue of Rameses II, has the traditional enemies of Egypt represented on the sides of the block - personified as bound and kneeling captives..

They were therefore symbolically beneath the feet of the king and under his control. From the front of the block they are (right-left):

1. Hanuenbu (northernmost foreigners)
2. Shat (a Land in Nubia)
3. Tashema (Upper Egypt, the south land)
4. Sekhet-lamu (the people of the desert oases)
5. Ta-Mehu (Lower Egypt, the Delta)
6. Pedjet Shut (foreign barbarians)
7. Tehenu (Libyans)
8. Iuntyw Seti (natives of Nubia)
9. Mentiu Setet (Nomads of Asia)
10. Khet Hesy (Hittites)
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
By the way, this bust of Djoser (who is of Ta Shemau ancestry) also sports a mustache unless it's false like his beard.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81C1E86MYgL.jpg
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] How about another example for further reference?

https://www.ancient-egypt.co.uk/fitzwilliam/index_2.htm

---

Same block Ramesses II, bad condition
 

---

Posted by Ibis (Member # 23674) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ The 9 Bows were a generic collective of the 9 most hostile enemies of united Kmt, though not all them were foreign! Indeed depending on the time period, there were rebels from one or both of the Two Lands that make up Egypt therefore having either Ta-Shemau or Ta-Mehu on the list of 9 Bows is not unusual nor would it be some sort of error or mistake.

So the figure labeled as Ta-Shemau is NOT Nubian but an Upper Egyptian and the figure Ta-Mehu is NOT Asiatic but an actual Lower Egyptian both are enemies of the crown and therefore state.

The Enemies of Ancient Egypt

The earliest depictions we have of Egyptian kings portray the motif of prostrate foreigners as a symbol of Egyptian supremacy over the rest of mankind. For example, the Narmer Palette shows the king in his efforts to rid the world of such aberrations as the "vile Asiatic". Here, we find the trampling of the "Nine Bows", as the Egyptian referred to their enemies, as a vivid embodiment of the king's supremacy over foreigners (and sometimes even other Egyptians). The figure "nine" represented three times three, which was the "plurality of Pluralities", thus designating the entirety of all enemies.

We went over this before, Lioness: Nine bows, Throne painting Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye at Tomb of Anen


https://www.osirisnet.net/tombes/nobles/kheru/photo/kherouef_tb_3310_3311.jpg

There was another thread in which we discussed the members of the 9 Bows in the above picture. Hopefully someone can pull up the link but in the meanwhile here is another translation of the list (from right to left):

1. Haw-nbu (Island folk), 2. Satju (Nubians), 3. Ta-Shema (Upper Egyptians), 4. Skhtju-jm (Oasis Dwellers), 5. Ta-Mehu (Lower Egyptians), 6. Pdtju-Su (Eastern [desert] Archers), 7. Tehenu (Libyans), 8. Juntju-ztj (Nubians), 9. Mentiu nu-satet?

---

I didn't say they were all foreigners.

Ta-Shemau as appear in Nine bows are not understood by scholars and it cannot be assumed a general term for Upper Egyptians in 9 bows scenes like this.
It's an upper Egyptian tomb, it cannot be assumed that they intend, "here this bound figure is one of us"

Additionally these cartouches should not be assumed as to correspond with the figures behind them



https://www.flickr.com/photos/manna4u/431486069/

---

The problem with using Ramesses II's version of the 9 bows as evidence that the cartouches don't always align with the hieroglyphics is:
1) There's a century gap between his reign and the reign of Tiye and Amenhotep III. Artistic conventions may have changed during these times, so we can't assume that because the cartouches doesn't align in Ramesses II's version, they don't align in Amenhotep's.
2)There seems to be consistency between the hieorglyphics and cartouches in Amenhotep's version. This is supported by the Libyan(Tehenu), who's not only labeled as one but also consistently visually depicted with fair skin and a sidelock in other depictions, such as Ramesses III's book of gates. If we assume that the cartouches don't align with the hieroglyphics why do we this trend?


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ibis:
The problem with using Ramesses II's version of the 9 bows as evidence that the cartouches don't always align with the hieroglyphics is:
1) There's a century gap between his reign and the reign of Tiye and Amenhotep III. Artistic conventions may have changed during these times, so we can't assume that because the cartouches doesn't align in Ramesses II's version, they don't align in Amenhotep's.
2)There seems to be consistency between the hieorglyphics and cartouches in Amenhotep's version. This is supported by the Libyan(Tehenu), who's not only labeled as one but also consistently visually depicted with fair skin and a sidelock in other depictions, such as Ramesses III's book of gates. If we assume that the cartouches don't align with the hieroglyphics why do we this trend?

[/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] How about another example for further reference?

https://www.ancient-egypt.co.uk/fitzwilliam/index_2.htm

---

Same block Ramesses II, bad condition

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
How about another example for further reference?

https://www.ancient-egypt.co.uk/fitzwilliam/index_2.htm

The Nine Bows
This is an ancient term that collectively referred to the enemies of Ancient Egypt. The name could originate from the use of Bows by their enemies and the ritual breaking of bows of defeated foes - but the actual reason is not known. The actual enemies that this refers could be adjusted to reflect the current contact with neighbours and their relations with them - we can include Asiatic, Sand Dwellers, Nubians and even lower and upper Egyptians.

The block, a base for a statue of Rameses II, has the traditional enemies of Egypt represented on the sides of the block - personified as bound and kneeling captives..

They were therefore symbolically beneath the feet of the king and under his control. From the front of the block they are (right-left):

1. Hanuenbu (northernmost foreigners)
2. Shat (a Land in Nubia)
3. Tashema (Upper Egypt, the south land)
4. Sekhet-lamu (the people of the desert oases)
5. Ta-Mehu (Lower Egypt, the Delta)
6. Pedjet Shut (foreign barbarians)
7. Tehenu (Libyans)
8. Iuntyw Seti (natives of Nubia)
9. Mentiu Setet (Nomads of Asia)
10. Khet Hesy (Hittites)

---

Seems to be the same order, with name variations
of the same ethnicities


Again, the same order, same ethnicities with name variations (although one might argue about what name concepts are proper within each match)
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
It's a New Year yet Lioness still retains bad habits.

She claims the bound enemies do not match the cartouches but provides no evidence other than her own opinion on what? Looks??

She has yet to prove that this Ta-Shemau (Upper Egyptian) is "Nubian" as she claims.



Even though he closely resembles an Upper Egyptian queen in hairstyle and complexion.



The same is true with the Ta-Mehu prisoner whom she claims is "Aiatic".
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


Anybody who wants to believe this middle figure is an upper Nubian be my guest

There you have it, what an Upper Nubian looks like


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:


Even though he closely resembles an Upper Egyptian queen in hairstyle and complexion.



The same is true with the Ta-Mehu prisoner whom she claims is "Aiatic".

---

Above, a wooden sculpture Of Queen Tiye wearing a headdress and with no paint indicating skin tone
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ No offense, but that has to be one of the dumbest if not thee dumbest strawdoll arguments I've heard in this forum! LOL

In regards to Tiye's bust, when did I mention anything about her complexion being painted? In fact since when does a figure have to be painted to portray a complexion, especially since various shades of wood can do just nicely to emulate real skin tones?!

So unless you can prove to me that the wooden bust whose eyes and eyebrows are indeed painted, somehow doesn't match the skin tone of the person it is modeled after you, can understand why I take a lot of what you say with criticism. Just like how you failed to prove that the figure labeled Ta-Shemau is actually 'Nubian' and the one labeled Ta-Mehu is 'Asiatic'.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ No offense, but that has to be one of the dumbest if not thee dumbest strawdoll arguments I've heard in this forum! LOL

In regards to Tiye's bust, when did I mention anything about her complexion being painted? In fact since when does a figure have to be painted to portray a complexion, especially since various shades of wood can do just nicely to emulate real skin tones?!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

She claims the bound enemies do not match the cartouches but provides no evidence other than her own opinion on what? Looks??

She has yet to prove that this Ta-Shemau (Upper Egyptian) is "Nubian" as she claims.



Even though he closely resembles an Upper Egyptian queen in hairstyle and complexion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

how you failed to prove that the figure labeled Ta-Shemau is actually 'Nubian' and the one labeled Ta-Mehu is 'Asiatic'.

---

There's no way to prove it
However I have seen a huge amount of New Kingdom and other art and that figure is consistent with a Nubians relative to the other figures in such captives scene (although I can't say it with absolute certainty).
But you continue to ignore this middle figure below with the glyph for a Nubian in addition to further questionable correspondences, the first figure also not looking like an Aegean



__________________________ 2nd from the right, tomb of Kheruef

This is an Upper Nubian? If it's not or any other one is not, it suggests that for the whole nine we cant rely on definitive links between a particular figure and the glyph in the cartouche or the standard sequence. It doesn't' mean they are ALL not corresponding it means some may not be.
However at all the tombs we have looked at, officials under Amenhotep and even the Rameses II, 9 Bow lists presented so far have the same order
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:


We went over this before, Lioness: Nine bows, Throne painting Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye at Tomb of Anen




There was another thread in which we discussed the members of the 9 Bows in the above picture. Hopefully someone can pull up the link but in the meanwhile here is another translation of the list


(from right to left):

1. Haw-nbu (Island folk)

2. Satju (Nubians)

3. Ta-Shema (Upper Egyptians)

4. Skhtju-jm (Oasis Dwellers)

5. Ta-Mehu (Lower Egyptians)

6. Pdtju-Su (Eastern [desert] Archers)

7. Tehenu (Libyans)

8. Juntju-ztj (Nubians)

9. Mentiu nu-satet?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,: I showed this other photo of the Rameses II to show it's condition too poor to assesses anything

and you are also saying
"There's a century gap between his (Rameses II's) reign and the reign of Tiye and Amenhotep III "

If that's the case why are you now showing a picture based on Rameses III which is even further
apart and is not even a depiction of the Nine Bows?

Note as I said before some figures in the tomb of Kheruef and Anen, such as the Libyan, do correspond to the text order but other figures do not
And one scene in a tomb should be understood in context of other figures in other scenes from the same tomb [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

There's no way to prove it
However I have seen a huge amount of New Kingdom and other art and that figure is consistent with a Nubians relative to the other figures in such captives scene (although I can't say it with absolute certainty).
But you continue to ignore this middle figure below with the glyph for a Nubian in addition to further questionable correspondences, the first figure also not looking like an Aegean



__________________________ 2nd from the right, tomb of Kheruef

This is an Upper Nubian? If it's not or any other one is not, it suggests that for the whole nine we cant rely on definitive links between a particular figure and the glyph in the cartouche or the standard sequence. It doesn't' mean they are ALL not corresponding it means some may not be.
However at all the tombs we have looked at, officials under Amenhotep and even the Rameses II, 9 Bow lists presented so far have the same order

---

Ah. I get what you're saying now. You say the first figure doesn't look "Aegean" even though his label is "Haw-nebu" means North Islands. No doubt the Aegean image you have in your head is that of a Keftiu which is a Cretan? However his label is not Keftiu but the more vague Haw-nebu which just means 'Northern Islands' so we don't know which island. It's possible he could represent a Cyprian since ancient Cypriotes were quite dark in color and sported beards as well.

As for the Shatyu, which I confused for the Lower Nubian Satiu, indeed Shat was a land in Upper Egypt. As for him "not looking Upper Nubian" do you think this because he does not look like stereotypical southern Sudanese?? Of course the paint on that one is very much eroded and faded but once could see that the original coloring was a light brown similar to modern Habesha Ethiopians who live at the same latitude as southern Sudanese. Again, your conjecture is based on YOUR presumptions on ancient peoples you know nothing about except stereotypes!
 

---

Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
 
I presume the identity of the figures is based on the hieroglyphic labels attached to them in addition to their physical appearance, right?

As for the "Upper Nubian" character, maybe he's supposed to represent an ethnic group related to the Puntites?


 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ You would think with the Kadruka hair study that Lioness cites, she would know better than to stereotype Upper Nubians.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

At last look I concluded three of the Ramesses ethnic subscenes appear mistaken.
Their labels do not match their norm depictions in other Gate of Teka Hra scene 30 tomb paintings.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

There's no way to prove it
However I have seen a huge amount of New Kingdom and other art and that figure is consistent with a Nubians relative to the other figures in such captives scene (although I can't say it with absolute certainty).
But you continue to ignore this middle figure below with the glyph for a Nubian in addition to further questionable correspondences, the first figure also not looking like an Aegean



__________________________ 2nd from the right, tomb of Kheruef

This is an Upper Nubian? If it's not or any other one is not, it suggests that for the whole nine we cant rely on definitive links between a particular figure and the glyph in the cartouche or the standard sequence. It doesn't' mean they are ALL not corresponding it means some may not be.
However at all the tombs we have looked at, officials under Amenhotep and even the Rameses II, 9 Bow lists presented so far have the same order

---

Ah. I get what you're saying now. You say the first figure doesn't look "Aegean" even though his label is "Haw-nebu" means North Islands. No doubt the Aegean image you have in your head is that of a Keftiu which is a Cretan? However his label is not Keftiu but the more vague Haw-nebu which just means 'Northern Islands' so we don't know which island. It's possible he could represent a Cyprian since ancient Cypriotes were quite dark in color and sported beards as well.

As for the Shatyu, which I confused for the Lower Nubian Satiu, indeed Shat was a land in Upper Egypt. As for him "not looking Upper Nubian" do you think this because he does not look like stereotypical southern Sudanese?? Of course the paint on that one is very much eroded and faded but once could see that the original coloring was a light brown similar to modern Habesha Ethiopians who live at the same latitude as southern Sudanese. Again, your conjecture is based on YOUR presumptions on ancient peoples you know nothing about except stereotypes!

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:

At last look I concluded three of the Ramesses ethnic subscenes appear mistaken.
Their labels do not match their norm depictions in other Gate of Teka Hra scene 30 tomb paintings.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ibis:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:

At last look I concluded three of the Ramesses ethnic subscenes appear mistaken.
Their labels do not match their norm depictions in other Gate of Teka Hra scene 30 tomb paintings.

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While this may be true, I'm sure Tukuler would agree that the cartouches seem to align with the hieroglyphics in Amenhotep's version of the 9 bows.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ibis:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:

At last look I concluded three of the Ramesses ethnic subscenes appear mistaken.
Their labels do not match their norm depictions in other Gate of Teka Hra scene 30 tomb paintings.

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While this may be true, I'm sure Tukuler would agree that the cartouches seem to align with the hieroglyphics in Amenhotep's version of the 9 bows.

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what tomb are you referring to?

Also I hope you realize what you are saying here:

if he is saying that three of the Book of Gates scenes at Ramesses II appear mistaken

and then if he were to say that cartouches in another tomb align with these mistakes , then both scenes would be mistaken
like somebody copied what was already an error to somewhere else

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I already stated that what's depicted on Ramesses II tombs aren't relevant to the Tomb of Kheruef. Given the time gap between them, and the fact that sufficient evidence has been provided that shows that the cartouches match the hieroglyphics in the Tomb of Kheruef(unlike Ramesses II's tombs). Your initial stance was that the Tomb of Kheruef wasn't reliable as the depiction of the upper Nubian and the depiction of the Haw-nebu didn't match their hieroglyphics. When it was pointed out that the upper Nubian may have been a Habesha Ethiopian, and the Haw-nebu a Cyprian. You changed the subject back to Ramesses II's tomb. To put things back on track do you have any new counter evidence against the cartouches in the Tomb of Kheruef being correct?


 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
.


.
_________________TOMB OF KHERUEF_______________________________________________TOMB OF ANEN


Tomb of Kheruef


1) Hau-Nebus (Aegean isles and others of the Mediterranean sea)

2) Shatyu (Upper Nubia)

3) Ta-shema (Upper Egypt )

4) Sheshtyu-im (inhabitants of the Oases)

5) Ta-Mehu (Lower Egypt )

6) the Peityu-shu (Desert of the East)

7) Tjehenu (Libyans)

8) Iuntyu-sety (Nubians)

9) Menttyunu-sedjet (Beduins of Asia).

_________________________________________

Tomb of Anen

1. Senger (Babylonian)

2. Kush (Nubian)

3. Naharin (Mittani)

4. Irm (Nubian)

5. Keftiu (Aegean/Mediterranean)

6. Iwntiw-Sti (Nubian)

7. Tjehenu (Libyan)

8. Mentiu Setet (Nubian)

9. Shasu (Bedouin)

_____________________________________

The Nine Bows at the Tomb Kheruef
Only 8 and 7 have the same figures
behind the glyphs in my opinion But, I believe, the rest are all
repeating generic Asiatics (6 down to 1 and including 9) with one more Nubian, 3, randomly placed.


The Nine Bows at the Tomb of Anen however do match the glyph to the right of them
and we can also see that these Nine bows described
in the text are not all the same as the ones at Kheuef (no Ta-shema or Ta-Mehu). However at both tombs 7 is a Libyan, and next to him 8 a Nubian
(although there are 4 different types of Nubian here, though these different types of Nubian are all depicted with the same figure type).

Also note, same glyph for Libyan at both tombs, throw stick and 3 pots. You will notice the throw stick on other bows in the Anen scene meaning foreigner
but those 3 pots are distinctive, a pot is the phoneme "nw" that is part of the Libyan group transliterated Tehenu or Tjehenu.
Those pots are not on any of the Book of Gates scenes such as at the Tomb of Seti I and other Book of Gates' scenes, different Libyans are indicated there although might be depicted looking similar physically


Temple of Rameses II at Abydos

Here's that other New Kingdom example, each glyph is a different one of the 9 bows, yet the figure behind each one is the same repeating Asiatic,
representing a generic foreigner

_________________________

Higher resolution images of Nine Bows at Tomb of Kheruef with magnification option

1)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/manna4u/431486069/

2)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/manna4u/431485588/in/photostream/

3)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/manna4u/431482423/in/photostream/
 

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Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 
How does at least early (predynastic and early dynastic) skeletal material from upper and lower Egypt relate to each other? Can one see a difference? And how about DNA?

Here is a skeleton from Om El-Khelgan region in the Daqahliya governorate in the Nile delta, c 4000 - 3500 BC



Egyptian Archaeological Mission Finds 83 Graves Predating Ancient Egypt In Nile Delta
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ No DNA from predynastic or protodynastic remains are known or at least have been made available to the public but plenty of studies on skeletal remains from these periods. Here are just two below that are still very relevant:

Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation by Barry Kemp, Published by Routledge December 12, 2005, pg. 12--

..Moving to the opposite geographic extremity, the very small sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty(Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline of variation along the Nile Valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans.

"The Racial History of Egypt and Nubia" by Ahmed Batrawi, The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute, (75:1945, pp. 81-101; 76:1946, pp. 131-56)

Since early neolithic times there existed two distinct but closely related types, a northern in Lower Egypt and a southern in Upper Egypt. The southern Egyptians were distinguished from the northerners by a smaller cranial index, a larger nasal index and greater prognathism. The geographical distinction between the two groups continued during the Pre-Dynastic Period. The Upper Egyptians, however, spread into lower Nubia during that period. By the beginning of the Dynastic era the northern Egyptian type is encountered for the first time in the Thebaïd, i.e., in the southern territory. The incursion, however, seems to have been transitory and the effects of the co-existence of the two types in one locality remained very transient until the 18th Dynasty. From this time onwards the northern type prevailed all over Egypt, as far south as Denderah, till the end of the Roman period.
In Lower Nubia a slight infiltration of negroid influence is observed during the Middle Kingdom times. In the New Empire period, however, the southern Egyptian type prevails again. After the New Empire a fresh and much stronger negro influence becomes discernable till the end of the Roman period.

There is a wide gap in our knowledge of the racial history of the two countries during the Christian and Islamic periods, owing to the lack of an adequate amount of relevant material. The study of the available measurements of the living, however, apparently suggests that the modern population all over Egypt conforms more closely to the southern type. The mean measurements for the modern Nubians are rather curious. The average cephalic index for them is significantly larger than that for the Egyptians. This is contrary to expectation based on knowledge of the characteristics of the ancient populations. No satisfactory explanation could be suggested.

The distribution of blood groups in present-day Egypt shows that the mass of population is very homogeneous and there are no significant differences, in this respect, between the Moslems and the Copts. Comparisons of head and body measurements suggest the same conclusion.


To lioness, the bowl hieroglyph is 'neb' which means container in general or specifically a person who contains i.e. 'lord', but was also used to mean 'island' ie. one that contains land surrounded by water hence the plural nebu means islands and the prefix haw means 'northern'. The Agean Islands were not ethnically homogeneous but comprised of various groups. Similarly, one cannot make generalizations on Africans with an Upper Egyptian being "too dark" or an Upper Nubian being "too light" and then claiming the depictions are "mistakes"! LOL
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:


Also note, same glyph for Libyan at both tombs (Kheruef and Anen), throw stick and 3 pots. You will notice the throw stick on other bows in the Anen scene meaning foreigner
but those 3 pots are distinctive, a pot is the phoneme "nw" that is part of the Libyan group transliterated Tehenu or Tjehenu.
Those pots are not on any of the Book of Gates scenes such as at the Tomb of Seti I and other Book of Gates' scenes, different Libyans are indicated there although might be depicted looking similar physically

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

To lioness, the bowl hieroglyph is 'neb'

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:


Some good examples of Lower Egyptians:

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show us some examples of Lower Egyptians depicted in art
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 



One of several of Tutankhamun's Footstools Featuring Nine Bows' Captives

Egyptian (ca. 1354–ca. 1345 B.C.)
Wood Overlaid with Stucco, Gilt, and Glass
Egyptian Museum, Cairo.
 

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Posted by Ibis (Member # 23674) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:


Also note, same glyph for Libyan at both tombs (Kheruef and Anen), throw stick and 3 pots. You will notice the throw stick on other bows in the Anen scene meaning foreigner
but those 3 pots are distinctive, a pot is the phoneme "nw" that is part of the Libyan group transliterated Tehenu or Tjehenu.
Those pots are not on any of the Book of Gates scenes such as at the Tomb of Seti I and other Book of Gates' scenes, different Libyans are indicated there although might be depicted looking similar physically

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

To lioness, the bowl hieroglyph is 'neb'

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No, the glyph for Libyan on both tombs aside from the throw stick is NOT nb (Gardiner W10)

Instead, the glyph IS nw (W24A) three pots and is used as a phoneme

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ibis:
Also your statement that the Lower Egyptian is actually a levantine person makes little sense as he looks nothing like the levantine groups depicted by the Egyptians. He's shirtless(similar to the Egyptians) and he lacks facial hair.

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Just, looking at these, not trying to look at the glyphs
how would you describe them as per resembling typical depictions in other art of the various groups ?
 

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Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 
Someone who has access to this book:

TRADITION AND TRANSFORMATION IN ANCIENT EGYPT Proceedings of the Fifth International Congress for Young Egyptologist, 15-19 September, 2015, Vienna

With it´s chapter

`The Evolution of Libyans’ Identity Markers in Egyptian Iconography. The Tjehenu Example´ by Elena Panaite.

TRADITION AND TRANSFORMATION IN ANCIENT EGYPT

Sounds interesting but I could not access the article. Maybe I have to take a trip to the University library.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Dang! The paper sounds very interesting. I wish we had access to it.

Meanwhile Oric Bates' classic work is still available, The Eastern Libyans

Which leads me back to the topic of this thread in that the earliest dynastic depictions of Delta folk come from the Narmer Palette showing the conquest of the Delta people.

Yet notice how the Delta people bear a striking resemblance to the earliest depictions of Libyans.








or why some Old Kingdom Libyans have the hairs above their brow styled into a waret (ureaus) shape?
 

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