This mummy was found in Africa thousands of miles from Switzerland but of course they defaulted to depicting her like some European. And no all of these people weren't bald.
Details:
quote: “Based on the anatomical age of Shep-en-Isis and the decoration of the inner sarcophagus, she must have been born around 650 BC and died between 620 and 610 BC,” said Egyptologist Michael Habicht from the University of Zurich.
The inscriptions on her coffin testified that she belonged to a wealthy upper-class family and came from the family of the high priests of Amun (the highest title among the priests of the ancient Egyptian god Amun) in Thebes. Judging by her family background, she probably received an education. However, many years of research did not allow to establish the identity and profession of her husband, as well as whether she had children.
In the late period, from the 20th Dynasty onward, the basis of legitimacy to the throne was based on the institution divine adoratrice of Amun. This institution was associated with Upper Egypt and Gebel Barkal in Sudan. As a result of the chaos in the 20th to 21st Dynasties, various priests of Amun were defacto rulers of the country and used their wives or daughters as stewards of royal legitimacy. This is how the 25th dynasty came to power.
quote: God's Wife of Amun, a title for a similar office of the high priestess, originated as a title held by a daughter of the High Priest of Amun during the reign of Hatshepsut and continued as an important office while the capital of Egypt remained in Thebes.
Later, the added title Divine Adoratrice of Amun can be seen to accompany a resurgence of the title God's Wife of Amun, which had fallen into disuse. The God's Wife title was revived during the Twentieth Dynasty, when Ramesses VI's daughter Iset held the office, as well as the additional office of Divine Adoratrice. He reigned from 1145 to 1137 BC. She never married and seems to have been the first of the celibate holders of the office of Divine Adoratrice of Amun, as he stipulated along with the new tradition that she would adopt the daughter of the succeeding pharaoh as her successor at the end of his reign in order to facilitate the transition to the next pharaoh. Generally, the tradition was followed and the position was filled by the daughter of the current king, who was adopted as the daughter of the incumbent Divine Adoratrice.
The new office reached the very heights of its political power during the late Third Intermediate Period of Egypt when Shepenupet I, Osorkon III's daughter, was first appointed to this post at Thebes. The Nubian king Kashta, in turn, appointed his daughter, Amenirdis, as her successor. The high status of this office is illustrated by the tomb of Amenirdis at Medinet Habu.
Toward the end of the Third Intermediate Perion the Napatan kings from Kingdom of Kush, who reigned as the Twenty-fifth Dynasty of Egypt, spread their realm into Upper Egypt. The reigning God's Wife of Amun, Shepenupet I, was persuaded to adopt Amenirdis, the daughter of Pharaoh Kashta of Kush as her heir. This sequence was followed throughout the 25th Dynasty until Egypt was conquered by the Saite king Psamtik I, who founded the Twenty-sixth Dynasty, who had his daughter, Nitocris I, adopted by Amenirdis II. The Adoption Stela of Nitocris shows the ceremony involved by this event, and the prestige of the role.
The 26th dynasty came to power as vassals of the Assyrians who installed multiple rulers in the delta who shared power.
quote: In 671 BCE, the Assyrian king Esarhaddon invaded Egypt. This invasion was directed against the Kushite rulers who had been in control of Upper Egypt rather than against the native Egyptian rulers; the Assyrians created an administration depending on Egyptians, left alone the twelve kinglets who formed a Dodecarchy ruling over the Nile Delta, and formed alliances with the ruler of the city of Sais, Necho I, who was the most powerful of the Delta kinglets, as well as with Pakruru, the ruler of the important nome of Per-Sopdu.
In 665 BCE, the Kushite king Tantamani invaded Lower Egypt again, and Necho I and Pakruru resisted the Kushite attack. Necho I died in battle and his son Psamtik I fled to Syria, while Pakruru became the spokesperson of the Delta kinglets during the peace negotiations with Tantamani at Memphis.
However the main power centers of the Nile were in Thebes and Luxor and the main priests of Anum, such as briefly continued this practice ending with Nitocris I, daughter of Psammtik, who was adopted by Shepenupet II.
quote: In Psamtik I's 9th regnal year, in 656 BCE, he sent an expedition to the city of Thebes which compelled the existing God's Wife of Amun, Shepenupet II, daughter of the former Kushite Pharaoh Piye, to adopt his daughter Nitocris I as her heiress in the so-called Adoption Stela. This was concluded with the approval of the Theban aristocracy and the tacit support of Mentuemhat, who was the Fourth Priest of Amun and the Mayor of Thebes. Psamtik I had unified all of Egypt under his rule.
Therefore the priests of Amun at this time were still associated with the South at Luxor, Thebes and further South. It wouldn't make sense for such a priestess to be European/Eurasian looking. It is possible but unlikely.
quote: Shepenupet II and Amenirdis II were the last vestiges of the vanished 25th Dynasty, yet they held this highest position of power in the south and practically controlled the entirety of Upper Egypt. Psamtik I chose not to remove the God's Wife in charge forcefully – an action that would be unpopular – but to make her adopt his daughter as her successor, thus ensuring the future control of Upper Egypt, as well as receiving a considerable number of properties and other goods: beyond the "facade" of the adoption of Nitocris, the stela de facto reports the reunification of Upper and Lower Egypt under the aegis of Psamtik.
Note that Mentuemhat is named after the God Montu similar to the Middle Kingdom kings like Mentuhotep, again also associated with the South.
quote: Mentuemhet was a rich and powerful mayor and priest of Thebes and Governor of Upper Egypt who rebuilt the city after the Assyrians destroyed it. Mentuemhet’s power over Thebes likely is what inspired him to portray himself as a pharaoh in his statuary, like he was king of Egypt—and in the case of Upper Egypt, he de facto was. The Egyptian kings needed to appear as both a ruler and a god and were charged with maintaining stability within the kingdom. Thus Egyptian kings were almost always portrayed as cool and calm, like the Nile, and so Mentuemhet adopted such a motif into his own portraiture. All of Mentuemhet's statues were done in the style of the Old Kingdom of Egypt
The last woman to hold the position Divine Adoratice of Amun was Ankhnesneferibre, who dissappeared after the invasion of KMT by the Persians, which was the end of the institution.
quote: In 595 BC, Ankhnesneferibre was dispatched to Thebes to be adopted by the God's Wife of Amun Nitocris I, as a stela from Karnak records.[2][3] Ankhnesneferibre held the position of Divine Adoratrice until Nitocris' death in pharaoh Apries' regnal Year 4 (586 BC),[2] after which she became the new God's Wife.[3] She governed at Thebes for several decades until 525 BC, when the Persian emperor Cambyses II defeated Psamtik III and conquered Egypt, putting an end to the 26th Dynasty and the positions of Divine Adoratrice of Amun and God's Wife of Amun.[2] After this date, Ankhnesneferibre disappeared from history as the last God's Wife, as did her likely successor, the Divine Adoratrice Nitocris II.[3] As with many of her predecessors, Ankhnesneferibre's tomb is located within the temple of Medinet Habu.
Note the hairstyle which was typical of the depictions of women in this period and no these priestesses were not bald.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
european ? Show me a single european woman that looks like her.
And can't you read what they wrote : "Unlike many other facial reconstructions, jewellery, clothing and wigs were not used, as these are hypothetical assumptions. Our reconstruction focuses exclusively on the forensically reconstructed appearance and the anatomical evidence. "
She looks like modern egyptians stop trying to darkwash ancient egyptians.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: european ? Show me a single european woman that looks like her.
And can't you read what they wrote : "Unlike many other facial reconstructions, jewellery, clothing and wigs were not used, as these are hypothetical assumptions. Our reconstruction focuses exclusively on the forensically reconstructed appearance and the anatomical evidence. "
She looks like modern egyptians stop trying to darkwash ancient egyptians.
Again, If Amun was the god of Gebel Barkal and the Priestesses of Amun in the 20th - 25th dynasties were associated with the South into Sudan, how on earth would these people not be dark? You are living in fantasy land totally separate from historical fact. Amun was at this time identified as a god of Sudanese origin (like a great many of them).
Again, this was a priestess of Amun and:
quote: The new office reached the very heights of its political power during the late Third Intermediate Period of Egypt when Shepenupet I, Osorkon III's daughter, was first appointed to this post at Thebes. The Nubian king Kashta, in turn, appointed his daughter, Amenirdis, as her successor. The high status of this office is illustrated by the tomb of Amenirdis at Medinet Habu.
....
Because of the power and prestige of the offices, the ceremony of adoption by the current incumbent of the post was used as a way for the kings of the Delta area to project their power into the south of Egypt. In the same manner, it was used by the Napatan kings to project their power northward into Egypt proper. The power of the Divine Adoratrice of Amun was limited to the area around Thebes in Upper Egypt, which was the center of the cult.
Thebes is now called Luxor and to this day many people from Luxor are very dark. And the power centers of the ancient Dynastic era were always in the South and only in the late period into the Greco Roman period after the 26th dynasty did the power centers move to the North and the Delta. Stop making up nonsense.
quote: The displayed reliefs are from the west wall of Nespekashuty's tomb; along with others from this wall in the Brooklyn Museum, they focus on his funeral. In the lowest register male and female offering bearers advance to the right and these have considerable similarities to offering bearers from Hatshepsut's Temple at Deir el-Bahri. In the second register from left to right, the barge bearing Nespekashuty's coffin and the officiating mortuary priest clad in a leopard skin is being towed across the river to the necropolis on the West Bank, preceded by boats holding gesticulating mourners. The scene is particularly influenced by 18th dynasty tombs, but is also very close in some respects to the parallel scene in the contemporary tomb of Mentuemhat, suggesting a possible relationship of the artistic teams for the two tombs.
The tomb's creators seem to have also felt a particular affinity for the manneristically elongated eyes and brows of the lively Theban 11th dynasty style.
quote: The XXVIth Dynasty is the period to which the northern oasis, as well as those of the south, become a centre of attention and population. The genealogies of the families of the XXVIth Dynasty of Bahariya, carefully established, bring the proof that their forebears were settled there in the XXIIth, or even the XXIth Dynasty. In the XXVIth Dynasty, the possession of the oasis will become a real stake between Egyptians, Libyans, Greeks of Cyrene, and Greek mercenaries engaged under the Egyptian sovereign's banner. Also the monuments of this time testify to the interest shown by the sovereigns of this region, as well as to the agreements made between Egyptians and Libyans. A Libyan family, whose ancestor is Iriawa, held key positions at the oasis in the XXVIth Dynasty. One of his descendants, Djedkhonsuiuefankh, became, in his turn, in the XXVIth Dynasty, governor of the oasis and ensured the local worship of the divinities. He and his family raised most of the known monuments of Bahariya. The oasis of Bahariya was doubtless prosperous at this time, according to four beautiful tombs of the XXVIth Dynasty discovered in Bahariya: the one of Petishtar, Tjaty, Djedimeniouefankh, and Baennetiu. The two first occupied responsibilities in the administration of the oasis; the two last were simple tradesmen. These tombs reveal a particularly successful fusion of culture on behalf of those under which fell the responsibility of the oasis and, probably, of the rest of the population.
What are you talking about ? Amun was not a "sudanese" deity nor was the cult of Amun exclusively performed by nubians. Moreover egyptians can move inside their own country.
The reconstruction I posted is a scientific paper, read the paper and tell me exactly what's wrong with their method if you can't then I don't really care much about your wishes and opinions.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: What are you talking about ? Amun was not a "sudanese" deity nor was the cult of Amun exclusively performed by nubians. Moreover egyptians can move inside their own country.
The reconstruction I posted is a scientific paper, read the paper and tell me exactly what's wrong with their method if you can't then I don't really care much about your wishes and opinions.
Amun was declared a Sudanese deity in the 18th dynasty. I did not say that the cult was exclusively performed by Nubians. I said the center of the cult was in the South around Luxor and extended into Sudan. You are again making up nonsense. The ancient people of the Nile were not predominantly light skinned, especially in the South. And the cult of Amun was a dominant aspect of the politics in the late period connecting it to the Kushites from Sudan. These are simple facts that you would prefer didn't count I guess.
As for the reconstruction, I said it was not likely she was very light skinned. Possible but not likely based on everything I mentioned.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Amun was declared a Sudanese deity in the 18th dynasty. I did not say that the cult was exclusively performed by Nubians. I said the center of the cult was in the South around Luxor and extended into Sudan. You are again making up nonsense. The ancient people of the Nile were not predominantly light skinned, especially in the South. And the cult of Amun was a dominant aspect of the politics in the late period connecting it to the Kushites from Sudan. These are simple facts that you would prefer didn't count I guess.
As for the reconstruction, I said it was not likely she was very light skinned. Possible but not likely based on everything I mentioned.
Egypt, Oasis of Bahariya, Bannentiu tomb and frescoes, 26th Dynasty
Amun has never been a specifically "sudanese" deity let alone being "declared" as such. The center of the cult might have been located in Thebes that doesn't mean all people who lived and worked there were from Thebes also are you telling us the reconstruction look foreign for people of Luxor ? Lol
Anyway the cult of amun could have been west african and its center being located in Nigeria it would still not make this reconstruction false so again the reconstruction was made by a serious team of forensic anthropologists, that Doug M wishes ancient egyptians look dark enough to be labelled "black" by his afro-american of west african descent folk is irrelevant.
She looked perfectly egyptian, only afrocentrist/eurocentrist would say it's a coincidence most facial reconstruction look exactly like modern egyptians of course such people prefer to rely on 2D frescoes based on conventional artistic canons set during the early old kingdom.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
pick whoever your more comfortable with. They don't seem like a homogenous bunch
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
what's going on here, this guy on the right seems to be Chinese?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Amun was declared a Sudanese deity in the 18th dynasty. I did not say that the cult was exclusively performed by Nubians. I said the center of the cult was in the South around Luxor and extended into Sudan. You are again making up nonsense. The ancient people of the Nile were not predominantly light skinned, especially in the South. And the cult of Amun was a dominant aspect of the politics in the late period connecting it to the Kushites from Sudan. These are simple facts that you would prefer didn't count I guess.
And the only one wishing here is you to try and claim this represents light skinned people:
As for the reconstruction, I said it was not likely she was very light skinned. Possible but not likely based on everything I mentioned.
Egypt, Oasis of Bahariya, Bannentiu tomb and frescoes, 26th Dynasty
Amun has never been a specifically "sudanese" deity let alone being "declared" as such. The center of the cult might have been located in Thebes that doesn't mean all people who lived and worked there were from Thebes also are you telling us the reconstruction look foreign for people of Luxor ? Lol
Anyway the cult of amun could have been west african and its center being located in Nigeria it would still not make this reconstruction false so again the reconstruction was made by a serious team of forensic anthropologists, that Doug M wishes ancient egyptians look dark enough to be labelled "black" by his afro-american of west african descent folk is irrelevant.
She looked perfectly egyptian, only afrocentrist/eurocentrist would say it's a coincidence most facial reconstruction look exactly like modern egyptians of course such people prefer to rely on 2D frescoes based on conventional artistic canons set during the early old kingdom.
Man, you are still denying reality. The 25th Dynasty was from Sudan and used the historical connection of Amun to Gebel Barkal as the basis for their legitimacy. And as part of that tradition, the priestesses of Amun were seen as key to the control of power during this era. But even before that the cult of Amun was centered in Upper Egypt and Luxor. There is no denying any of this and the point is that the people of Upper Egypt and Luxor specifically can be very dark. SO you are again making up nonsense with this obsession of light skin in the ancient Nile. And I have posted the images from the 26th dynasty showing they depicted themselves as dark skinned Africans. Modern Egypt is not the same as the culture 2,600 years ago.
quote: When the Egyptians in the early 18th Dynasty conquered northern Sudan (known as Upper Nubia, or, anciently, "Kush"), they identified Jebel Barkal as the birthplace and chief southern residence of their state god Amun of Karnak. As part of their program of conquest, they established the cult of Amun in many places in Nubia, but Jebel Barkal seems to have had a unique importance for them as a creation site and home of a primeval aspect of Amun, whom they typically represented here as a man with a ram's head (to distinguish him from his anthropomorphic Theban counterpart.) Jebel Barkal had the distinction of being the "first" (i.e. uppermost) religious sanctuary in the Egyptian empire; it was also its most remote.
Beneath the Jebel Barkal cliff the Egyptians constructed a modest religious center, to which they gave the same name as Karnak (Ipet-Sut: "Most Select of Places"), Amun’s great sanctuary at Thebes, some 1260 km downriver. Surprisingly, they promoted the belief that the Nubian "Karnak" was the more ancient of the two! The hill itself the Egyptians called variously Dju-Wa’ab (“Pure Mountain”) and Nesut-Tawy (“Thrones of the Two Lands.”), which was sometimes rendered simply Neset-Tawy (“Throne of the Two Lands”). In this way it was identified (retroactively) as the source of the Theban god's most ancient epithet "Lord of the Thrones of the Two Lands." The settlement which grew up around the mountain was called Napata, and the god was called "Amun of Napata, who resides in Pure Mountain."
Jebel Barkal's most distinctive feature is its gigantic free-standing pinnacle, 75 m high, which rises from the south corner of its cliff. This towering monolith, unparalleled in the Nile Valley, was anciently perceived as a colossal natural statue having many overlapping identities - and combining the supernatural powers of all of them. It was recognized, for example, as the phallus of the Creator; it could be seen from the west as a squatting god or a rearing serpent; from the east it evoked a standing royal or divine figure, crowned with a White Crown. Most conspicuously in public art, however, it was represented as a uraeus (or rearing cobra), wearing either a Sun Disk (when seen from the west) or a tall, knobbed White Crown (when seen from the east) (figs. 2,3). Because the uraeus, worn on the front of the king’s crown, was the primary symbol of his royal authority, and because the White Crown was the symbol of his authority to rule Upper Egypt (or generally “the South”), the "uraeus" on Jebel Barkal, when discovered by the pharaohs, seems to have “proved” to them not only that "Upper Egypt" extended as far south as Jebel Barkal but also that Amun, since primeval times, had intended them to rule all of Kush as part of "Upper Egypt."
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Man, you are still denying reality. The 25th Dynasty was from Sudan and used the historical connection of Amun to Gebel Barkal as the basis for their legitimacy. And as part of that tradition, the priestesses of Amun were seen as key to the control of power during this era. But even before that the cult of Amun was centered in Upper Egypt and Luxor. There is no denying any of this and the point is that the people of Upper Egypt and Luxor specifically can be very dark. SO you are again making up nonsense with this obsession of light skin in the ancient Nile. And I have posted the images from the 26th dynasty showing they depicted themselves as dark skinned Africans.
[/QB]
What does the 25th dynasty has to do with her ? Moreover the 25th dynasty being nubian doesn't mean the whole college of priests suddenly became black. literally all of what you post has nothing to do with the woman nor does it contradict the paper. The reconstruction has no light skin but a typical olive skin and egyptians can naturally tan depending on the region they live.
Stop with your obsession over skin color in ancient egypt. These people looked the most like modern egyptians not any other population and there has always been a clinal gradient in terms of skin color.
Again can you show us where exactly the paper is wrong about the reconstruction ? All of what you do is pure speculation based on a dubious intepretation of historical events.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Man, you are still denying reality. The 25th Dynasty was from Sudan and used the historical connection of Amun to Gebel Barkal as the basis for their legitimacy. And as part of that tradition, the priestesses of Amun were seen as key to the control of power during this era. But even before that the cult of Amun was centered in Upper Egypt and Luxor. There is no denying any of this and the point is that the people of Upper Egypt and Luxor specifically can be very dark. SO you are again making up nonsense with this obsession of light skin in the ancient Nile. And I have posted the images from the 26th dynasty showing they depicted themselves as dark skinned Africans.
What does the 25th dynasty has to do with her ? Moreover the 25th dynasty being nubian doesn't mean the whole college of priests suddenly became black. literally all of what you post has nothing to do with the woman nor does it contradict the paper. The reconstruction has no light skin but a typical olive skin and egyptians can naturally tan depending on the region they live.
Stop with your obsession over skin color in ancient egypt. These people looked the most like modern egyptians not any other population and there has always been a clinal gradient in terms of skin color.
Again can you show us where exactly the paper is wrong about the reconstruction ? All of what you do is pure speculation based on a dubious intepretation of historical events. [/QB]
It has to do with the fact that you keep presenting the false idea that ancient Luxor was home to mostly light skinned people. And it has to do with the fact that they restored the tradition of the Divine Adoratrice of Amun which was used as a basis for Southern power going back to the 21st Dynasty.
And it has to do with this: Queen Nodjmet of the 21st Dynasty (long before the Kushites), wife of the high priest of Amun and future pharaoh of 21st dynasty. The 21st dynasty came to power basically from southern priests of Amun at Luxor taking over. Nothing light skinned here: http://anubis4_2000.tripod.com/mummypages1/21A.htm
quote: Nodjmet may have been a daughter of the last ramesside pharaoh, Ramesses XI, and likely even Piankh's wife, if the latter really was Herihor's predecessor as supported by Karl Jansen-Winkeln.[1] Early in her life, she held titles such as Lady of the House and Chief of the Harem of Amun.[2] According to the two Egyptologists Aidan Dodson and Dyan Hilton,[3] Nodjmet had several children with her first husband Piankh: Heqanefer, Heqamaat, Ankhefenmut, Faienmut (a female) and, the most famous of all, the future High Priest of Amun/Pharaoh Pinedjem I. Nodjmet became Piankh's most trusted confidant, and every time he had to fulfill his business in Nubia, the management of Thebes was left to her. When around 1070 BCE Piankh died, Herihor was proposed as his successor; Nodjmet, however, managed to keep her prerogatives marrying this man.[4] Later, Herihor claimed “kingship” – although only inside the borders of the Temple of Amun at Karnak – Nodjmet effectively became his “queen”: her name was inscribed inside a cartouche and later she bore titles such as Lady of the Two Lands and King's Mother
quote: The placement of Henuttawy in the royal families of the late 20th dynasty and the early 21st dynasty is not entirely clear and open to interpretation. Duathathor-Henuttawy held several titles, including King's Daughter; King's Wife; King's Mother; Lady of the Two Lands; Mistress of the Two Lands; Daughter of the Great Royal Wife; Foremost Singer of Amun; Mother of the Great Royal Wife; Mother of the High Priest of Amun; Mother of Generalissimo.
Edward F. Wente had conjectured that Henuttawy was the daughter of Smendes and Queen Tentamun , the wife of Pinudjem I and the mother of King Psusennes and his wife, Mutnodjmet, The High Priest of Amun Menkheperre, the Generalissimo of the South and North, Menkheperre, and God's Wife of Amun Maatkare. Kenneth Kitchen had conjectured there were two women called Henuttawy during the period to explain some of the titles associated with the name Henuttawy.[4]
So your idea that the ancient population of Luxor defauled to light skin is nonsense.
As for the reconstruction, like I said it is not LIKELY that she was light skinned, but it is possible.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Often what they do with these reconstructions is they present then in dark lighting which makes the skin tone more ambiguous. Often there is a black background of darkness, it's kind theatrical, or like you might see in dimly lit museum with the spotlights softly on the object
But in normal every day daylight they turn out to be lighter then they appeared to be
- but it's too late by then, they already snuck in the door, Trojan horse style
yeah they appear brownish (I mean "Olive") when they're in a dark room
but walking outside could be a different story
how come we never see these foresnsic reconstructions of ancient Egyptians with a brown skin color like this? answer: racism
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Sarcophagus of Harkhebit, 26th Dynasty
Portrait of a Pharaoh of the 26th, Saite Dynasty
Doug, I show it all but you hide some of it
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: It has to do with the fact that you keep presenting the false idea that ancient Luxor was home to mostly light skinned people.
No people from luxor probably had the same tone as the modern inhabitants of the region. You can artificially try to give her a darker tone she would still look like modern egyptians.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: And it has to do with the fact that they restored the tradition of the Divine Adoratrice of Amun which was used as a basis for Southern power going back to the 21st Dynasty.
This isn't going to tell us how people from that region looked like nor does it prevent people from moving to Thebes.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Queen Nodjmet of the 21st Dynasty (long before the Kushites), wife of the high priest of Amun and future pharaoh of 21st dynasty. The 21st dynasty came to power basically from southern priests of Amun at Luxor taking over. Nothing light skinned here Another queen from the 21st Dynasty also associated with Luxor and Upper Egypt:
[QUOTE] The placement of Henuttawy in the royal families of the late 20th dynasty and the early 21st dynasty is not entirely clear and open to interpretation. Duathathor-Henuttawy held several titles, including King's Daughter; King's Wife; King's Mother; Lady of the Two Lands; Mistress of the Two Lands; Daughter of the Great Royal Wife; Foremost Singer of Amun; Mother of the Great Royal Wife; Mother of the High Priest of Amun; Mother of Generalissimo.
So your idea that the ancient population of Luxor defauled to light skin is nonsense.
As for the reconstruction, like I said it is not LIKELY that she was light skinned, but it is possible.
nothing light skinned indeed but that's because of this :
quote: As decomposition progresses, the skin changes color in a variety of ways that serve to overwhelm and disguise the complexion of the individual during life. Head hair, however, can be very useful—especially in children where modifications of natural form and color are rare.
Linda L. Klepinger, fundamentals of forensic anthropology, pp. 66
A mummy isn't going to tell us much about skin color except if we perform a deeper microscopic analysis.
Also are you aware that's also how nodjmet was depicted :
I'd also ask you why you think some egyptians couldn't have nubian ancestry ? Did they only mix with light skin settlers ? lol
Here another reconstruction from an ancient egyptian known as Nebiri (18th dynasty, Thebes) :
Antalas, most Americans would call this a black man, do you have a problem with that?
Yes because his skin is not black, he's genetically not similar to afro-americans, look like most egyptians, etc
That would be like me obsessing over armenians or iranians because of somewhat similar level of melanin...ridiculous
Anyway people from Luxor overall look no different from your regular egyptian :
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: european ? Show me a single european woman that looks like her.
And can't you read what they wrote : "Unlike many other facial reconstructions, jewellery, clothing and wigs were not used, as these are hypothetical assumptions. Our reconstruction focuses exclusively on the forensically reconstructed appearance and the anatomical evidence. "
She looks like modern egyptians stop trying to darkwash ancient egyptians.
I understand there isn't much differences in the human family but you can't think that makes sense.
Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
Thank goodness Photoshop exists!
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: Thank goodness Photoshop exists!
True typical afrocentrist methodology
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Folks, don't let this lunatic bait you! He loves to put his delusions on display and now he baits you with a white-looking reconstruction. And of course here y'all come like flies to sh*t.
His assertions are only worthy or ridicule.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Folks, don't let this lunatic bait you! He loves to put his delusions on display and now he baits you with a white-looking reconstruction. And of course here y'all come like flies to sh*t.
His assertions are only worthy or ridicule.
so the whole paper is wrong ? Hahahah you literally have no argument against such reconstruction
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Really a bit weird, if one think of it, that westerners (both light skinned and darker skinned) refer to people of all kind of colors as "black". Few peoples are totally black in color. Especially in America also rather light skinned persons are called black. Also curiously some times rather dark skinned South Asians are not referred to as black. Seems like black today is more of a political designation than based on skin color alone. Maybe time some day to ditch the notion that all people of for example African descent, or living in Africa, are black. Maybe time for better and more accurate designations.
Regarding ancient reconstructions, if they are light skinned they obviously attract some angry Afrocentrists (even Europeans as the Ice man reconstructed as relatively light skinned seems to trigger some people).
But I assume even dark skinned reconstructions can trigger feelings. It is interesting that skin color still matters so much.
Maybe I later make a thread where we can post different reconstructions and try to discuss how correct they are.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: so the whole paper is wrong ? Hahahah you literally have no argument against such reconstruction
I agree with you. Seems that some people think they know more than the experts and forensic artists who made the reconstructions. Also the notion that those experts and artists are racists is rather insulting.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Really a bit weird, if one think of it, that westerners (both light skinned and darker skinned) refer to people of all kind of colors as "black". Few peoples are totally black in color. Especially in America also rather light skinned persons are called black. Also curiously some times rather dark skinned South Asians are not referred to as black. Seems like black today is more of a political designation than based on skin color alone. Maybe time some day to ditch the notion that all people of for example African descent, or living in Africa, are black. Maybe time for better and more accurate designations.
Regarding ancient reconstructions, if they are light skinned they obviously attract some angry Afrocentrists (even Europeans as the Ice man reconstructed as relatively light skinned seems to trigger some people).
But I assume even dark skinned reconstructions can trigger feelings. It is interesting that skin color still matters so much.
Maybe I later make a thread where we can post different reconstructions and try to discuss how correct they are.
Only americans are confused about it and many afro-americans are also highly mixed which can add more confusion of course but in Europe or North africa "black" is well defined and no one would ever consider egyptians or indians as black.
As for the reconstruction, I don't see where is the problem she could have easily tan like most modern egyptians and the whole point is about features not her skin color. There is clearly nothing "black" about her and she fits well among modern egyptians as expected.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: so the whole paper is wrong ? Hahahah you literally have no argument against such reconstruction
I agree with you. Seems that some people think they know more than the experts and forensic artists who made the reconstructions. Also the notion that those experts and artists are racists is rather insulting.
the thing is that this work doesn't even involve artists, it's made by a recognized forensic laboratory but these afrocentrists tell us it's fake because it doesn't fit their narrative.
literally all the facial reconstructions of ancient egyptians don't look black but yes we should believe it's all fake and made by white supremacists ...XD
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Antalas, most Americans would call this a black man, do you have a problem with that?
Yes because his skin is not black, he's genetically not similar to afro-americans, look like most egyptians, etc
would you consider Will Smith to be black?
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
would you consider Will Smith to be black?
no I consider will smith mixed
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: It has to do with the fact that you keep presenting the false idea that ancient Luxor was home to mostly light skinned people.
No people from luxor probably had the same tone as the modern inhabitants of the region. You can artificially try to give her a darker tone she would still look like modern egyptians.
No. They literally looked like this. You can pretend to act like this is some open ended issue where you can speculate but the facts are there and no speculation is needed.
That is actually how they looked which matches the art as well.
You sitting here pretending to know with no facts and evidence is irrelevant.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: And it has to do with the fact that they restored the tradition of the Divine Adoratrice of Amun which was used as a basis for Southern power going back to the 21st Dynasty.
This isn't going to tell us how people from that region looked like nor does it prevent people from moving to Thebes.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Queen Nodjmet of the 21st Dynasty (long before the Kushites), wife of the high priest of Amun and future pharaoh of 21st dynasty. The 21st dynasty came to power basically from southern priests of Amun at Luxor taking over. Nothing light skinned here Another queen from the 21st Dynasty also associated with Luxor and Upper Egypt:
[QUOTE] The placement of Henuttawy in the royal families of the late 20th dynasty and the early 21st dynasty is not entirely clear and open to interpretation. Duathathor-Henuttawy held several titles, including King's Daughter; King's Wife; King's Mother; Lady of the Two Lands; Mistress of the Two Lands; Daughter of the Great Royal Wife; Foremost Singer of Amun; Mother of the Great Royal Wife; Mother of the High Priest of Amun; Mother of Generalissimo.
So your idea that the ancient population of Luxor defauled to light skin is nonsense.
As for the reconstruction, like I said it is not LIKELY that she was light skinned, but it is possible.
nothing light skinned indeed but that's because of this :
quote: As decomposition progresses, the skin changes color in a variety of ways that serve to overwhelm and disguise the complexion of the individual during life. Head hair, however, can be very useful—especially in children where modifications of natural form and color are rare.
Linda L. Klepinger, fundamentals of forensic anthropology, pp. 66
A mummy isn't going to tell us much about skin color except if we perform a deeper microscopic analysis.
Also are you aware that's also how nodjmet was depicted :
I'd also ask you why you think some egyptians couldn't have nubian ancestry ? Did they only mix with light skin settlers ? lol
Here another reconstruction from an ancient egyptian known as Nebiri (18th dynasty, Thebes) :
Here another one from upper egypt known as Tjeby (2150 and 2030 BCE) :
You can make them darker if you want they'll still look like modern egyptians certainly not "black"
They were not modern Egyptians, the image above is literally how they looked. You are simply ignoring facts and making up nonsense.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
would you consider Will Smith to be black?
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: no I consider will smith mixed
.
.
Will Smith's parents, Willard Smith (Sr.) and Caroline Bright
^^ both mixed also?
The vast majority of Americans and Brits would consider Will Smith and his parents black because they look predominantly African
The average European ancestry for blacks in America is around 20% That's mixed technically but look predominantly African and in America or the UK, regarded as black people
And the other 80% is "black" African (although even in Africa the technical name for the skin color of most is "brown", most Africans
Antalas, what about Nelson Mandela? black ?
Posted by Big O (Member # 23467) on :
These are much more accurate reconstructions, because they have that native divine melaninated skin;
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
similar, a modern Egyptian with the old reddish brown skin tone (of some)
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:Originally posted by Big O: These are much more accurate reconstructions, because they have that native divine melaninated skin;
Seems there has been some controversy around that image. Here is a summary from Wiki:
quote: The archaeologist Karl Richard Lepsius documented many ancient Egyptian tomb paintings in his work Denkmäler aus Aegypten und Aethiopien. In 1913, after the death of Lepsius, an updated reprint of the work was produced, edited by Kurt Sethe. This printing included an additional section, called the "Ergänzungsband" in German, which incorporated many illustrations that did not appear in Lepsius' original work. One of them, plate 48, illustrated one example of each of the four "nations" as depicted in KV11, and shows the "Egyptian nation" and the "Nubian nation" as identical to each other in skin color and dress. Professor Ampim has declared that plate 48 is a true reflection of the original painting, and that it "proves" that the ancient Egyptians were identical in appearance to the Nubians, even though he admits no other examples of the "Table of Nations" show this similarity. He has further accused "Euro-American writers" of attempting to mislead the public on this issue.
The late Egyptologist Frank J. Yurco visited the tomb of Ramesses III (KV11), and in a 1996 article on the Ramesses III tomb reliefs he pointed out that the depiction of plate 48 in the Ergänzungsband section is not a correct depiction of what is actually painted on the walls of the tomb. Yurco notes, instead, that plate 48 is a "pastiche" of samples of what is on the tomb walls, arranged from Lepsius' notes after his death, and that a picture of a Nubian person has erroneously been labeled in the pastiche as an Egyptian person. Yurco points also to the much more recent photographs of Dr. Erik Hornung as a correct depiction of the actual paintings.(Erik Hornung, The Valley of the Kings: Horizon of Eternity, 1990). Ampim nonetheless continues to claim that plate 48 shows accurately the images that stand on the walls of KV11, and he categorically accuses both Yurco and Hornung of perpetrating a deliberate deception for the purposes of misleading the public about the true race of the ancient Egyptians
Other pictures from Lepsius book: The "Table of Nations", from Lepsius: Top row, left to right: "Aamu" (Asiatics), "Nehesu" (Nubians), and "Themehu" (Libyans); middle row: a deity, "Reth" (Egyptians), "Aamu" (Asiatics).
Btw what is divine melaninated skin? Sounds mythological.
Posted by Big O (Member # 23467) on :
No there is no controversy on how the Khamite saw himself compared to other nations;
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:Originally posted by Big O: No there is no controversy on how the Khamite saw himself compared to other nations;
Why are those two depicted like that when many other figures in the tomb are depicted more like Egyptians use to be depicted? They do not seem to be representative for all the paintings in the tomb:
Also interesting to compare with Seti I tomb which also have a similar scene. There the Egyptian seems to be depicted in the more common way.
Do you have a good photo of the whole panel in Seti Is tomb so one can compare?
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
--
Posted by Big O (Member # 23467) on :
^^ What tf are you talking about? It is very consistent with how they portrayed themselves>
The issue of forensic reconstructions has been discussed many times before including the methods and process used therein.
The only definitive features of a mummy or any corpse is the hard bony skull. The muscle attachments are based on the bone features but the muscle thickness as well as skin thickness which is known as tissue depth varies between populations. Thus forensic artists usually estimate the tissue depth of an individual based on 'race' or ethnicity. The other soft tissue features that characterize the face such as the tip of the nose, the lips, and ears are something that can only be speculated unless portraits are available. And of course skin and eye color cannot be inferred from the remains at all except from pigmentation/melanin dosage tests of the skin and eyes themselves.
Of course, when it comes to forensic recontsructions especially those of ancient Egyptians bias comes into play which is why to prevent any bias the forensic artists are usually double-blinded and are not given the ethnic background the the individual they are told to reconstruct. Often times in the case of Egyptian mummies the artists are not double-blinded and so obvious bias crops up.
Egyptian Egyptologist Ahmed Saleh who has a master's degree in biomedical and forensic studies has complained about the fact that when forensic artists reconstruct Egyptian mummies, for tissue depth reference they always use European or Arab models instead of Baladi (indigenous) Egyptians, particularly Baladi who live the rural areas from Edfu to Aswan. He finds the fair-skin representations to be ludicrous and has even called recent depictions of Tut as "Cauasian" to be "disrespectful to Egypt's African roots". Now mind you, Dr. Saleh is NOT an African American but an Egyptian born and raised. Is he wrong? Why do forensic artists always use Europeans and Arabs a reference instead of indigenous Egyptians??
King Tut's bust made during his life
All the reconstructions of Tut that I can recall made by different teams
It is the same with the Younger Lady who was called "Nefertiti".
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: The issue of forensic reconstructions has been discussed many times before including the methods and process used therein.
The only definitive features of a mummy or any corpse is the hard bony skull. The muscle attachments are based on the bone features but the muscle thickness as well as skin thickness which is known as tissue depth varies between populations. Thus forensic artists usually estimate the tissue depth of an individual based on 'race' or ethnicity. The other soft tissue features that characterize the face such as the tip of the nose, the lips, and ears are something that can only be speculated unless portraits are available. And of course skin and eye color cannot be inferred from the remains at all except from pigmentation/melanin dosage tests of the skin and eyes themselves.
Of course, when it comes to forensic recontsructions especially those of ancient Egyptians bias comes into play which is why to prevent any bias the forensic artists are usually double-blinded and are not given the ethnic background the the individual they are told to reconstruct. Often times in the case of Egyptian mummies the artists are not double-blinded and so obvious bias crops up.
Egyptian Egyptologist Ahmed Saleh who has a master's degree in biomedical and forensic studies has complained about the fact that when forensic artists reconstruct Egyptian mummies, for tissue depth reference they always use European or Arab models instead of Baladi (indigenous) Egyptians, particularly Baladi who live the rural areas from Edfu to Aswan. He finds the fair-skin representations to be ludicrous and has even called recent depictions of Tut as "Cauasian" to be "disrespectful to Egypt's African roots". Now mind you, Dr. Saleh is NOT an African American but an Egyptian born and raised. Is he wrong? Why do forensic artists always use Europeans and Arabs a reference instead of indigenous Egyptians??
King Tut's bust made during his life
All the reconstructions of Tut that I can recall made by different teams
It is the same with the Younger Lady who was called "Nefertiti". [/QB]
As expected I see that you haven't even took the time to check the paper because their whole method is detailed in there and some aspect you said couldn't be reconstructed were in fact preserved thanks to the good state preservation of the mummy ; see for example :
quote: Due to the mummified ear, the shape of the ear could be reconstructed quite accurately, in contrast to pure skeletons where ears are basically reconstructed with a standard ear.
You pretend bias is present because of many labs knowing the origin of the mummy but then proceed to post tutankhamun as an example when actually one of the lab who worked on him were "double-blinded" and yet reached overall the same results as the other labs :
quote: National Geographic has unveiled three independent attempts to reconstruct the face of the boy pharaoh Tutankhamen , who died 3300 years ago. The three teams - French, US, and Egyptian - based their reconstructions on 1700 computed tomography (CT) scans of the mummy that were made by the Egyptians early this year (Science, 28 january, p. 511). The reconstructions differ on details of soft tissue, such as the end of the nose. [...] The Egyptian and French Teams worked with the CT scans knowing they belonged to Tut; the NYU team didn't know.
Anyway why do you assume that baladi from the far south of egypt are necessarily representative of all ancient egyptians ? Why do you assume any substantial difference when it comes to tissue depth between arabs/europeans and "baladis" if that was really the case you admit all these forensic anthropologists are wrong ? Why do you assume all the studies used arabs or europeans as references ?
Anyway overall we can clearly see that this woman was perfectly caucasoid, you can try to darkwash her if you want and you'll see that she will still not look black. I also challenge you to find a single facial reconstruction of ancient egyptians that look "black" (serious reconstructions of course with their papers). There is absolutely no reason for egyptian, european and japanese anthropologists to be biased. Let's be real, if the reconstruction looked let's say fully nigerian or senegalese you wouldn't have question it in the slightest.
Posted by SlimJim (Member # 23217) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti:
Anyway overall we can clearly see that this woman was perfectly caucasoid, you can try to darkwash her if you want and you'll see that she will still not look black. I also challenge you to find a single facial reconstruction of ancient egyptians that look "black" (serious reconstructions of course with their papers). There is absolutely no reason for egyptian, european and japanese anthropologists to be biased. Let's be real, if the reconstruction looked let's say fully nigerian or senegalese you wouldn't have question it in the slightest.
This shows how "caucasoid" physical traits don't necessarily correlate with Eurasian related ancestry perfectly as Somalis are less prognathic than many Europeans and North Africans including the ancient Egyptians.
Somalis also have longer and thinner noses(lower nasal index) than some Europeans.
So the presence of what you consider "perfectly caucasoid" physical traits in the ancient Egyptians is not mutually exclusive with being African, especially when some Africans have these traits at a higher degree than some Europeans.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by SlimJim: https://imgur.com/a/6sn1R2j - Frontal and Facial Flatness of Major Human Populations
This shows how "caucasoid" physical traits don't necessarily correlate with Eurasian related ancestry perfectly as Somalis are less prognathic than many Europeans and North Africans including the ancient Egyptians.
Somalis also have longer and thinner noses(lower nasal index) than some Europeans.
So the presence of what you consider "perfectly caucasoid" physical traits in the ancient Egyptians is not mutually exclusive with being African, especially when some Africans have these traits at a higher degree than some Europeans. [/QB]
Your paper literally show that most SSAs are more prognathic than most west eurasians the only exception I suppose are horners but that actually confirms what I always said that people from the Horn of Africa are mostly caucasoid and genetically plot closer to west eurasians than other SSAs but afrocentrists started to say I'm defending the racist "hamitic theory" and that it doesn't matter as long as horners are seen as black by europeans lol
Moreover "caucasoid/caucasian" isn't only defined by prognathism but a whole set of specific traits here some examples :
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
Anyway overall we can clearly see that this woman was perfectly caucasoid
So we have this mummy and it's skull
And if we look at all human skulls there is a range of variation
Somewhere along the line somebody decided to delineate certain sets of measurement ranges into categories , "Negroid", "Mongoloid", "Caucasoid", Australoid"
So you say this mummy is caucasoid
Question, on this basis in your opinion does that have any relation to what extent she had deep rooted African ancestry
or would you say that you can't tell that from measuring a skull ?
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
Anyway overall we can clearly see that this woman was perfectly caucasoid
So we have this mummy and it's skull
And if we look at all human skulls there is a range of variation
Somewhere along the line somebody decided to delineate certain sets of measurement ranges into categories , "Negroid", "Mongoloid", "Caucasoid", Australoid"
So you say this mummy is caucasoid
Question, on this basis in your opinion does that have any relation to what extent she had deep rooted African ancestry
or would you say that you can't tell that from measuring a skull ?
I don't know exactly what you mean by "deep rooted african" but such traits are more commonly found in Eurasia than sub-saharan africa. The only place in SSA where such traits are found in substantial number are in the Horn but that's no surprise since horners have important amount of west eurasian ancestry and plot closer to west eurasians than other SSA groups.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
Anyway overall we can clearly see that this woman was perfectly caucasoid
So we have this mummy and it's skull
And if we look at all human skulls there is a range of variation
Somewhere along the line somebody decided to delineate certain sets of measurement ranges into categories , "Negroid", "Mongoloid", "Caucasoid", Australoid"
So you say this mummy is caucasoid
Question, on this basis in your opinion does that have any relation to what extent she had deep rooted African ancestry
or would you say that you can't tell that from measuring a skull ?
I don't know exactly what you mean by "deep rooted african" but such traits are more commonly found in Eurasia than sub-saharan africa. The only place in SSA where such traits are found in substantial number are in the Horn but that's no surprise since horners have important amount of west eurasian ancestry and plot closer to west eurasians than other SSA groups.
By deep rooted African ancestry, meaning ancestry that never left Africa
Here is a Somalian man
If some Eurasians resemble him more than the average West African, Horn Africans might be their ancestors
rather than certain others in East Africa who are mixed with people from the Arabian peninsula or Levant
Similarly if mankind started in Africa the ancestors of Europeans may be more related to East Africans of this type of African, like this Masai man from Kenya and it makes sense because they are close to the land exit of Africa through the Sinai and there is the Nile nearby also, flowing south to North. They also live in drier, less forested climates
The skulls of these men might not fit neatly into these old categories with their implications of origin
Posted by TubuYal23 (Member # 23503) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
Anyway overall we can clearly see that this woman was perfectly caucasoid
So we have this mummy and it's skull
And if we look at all human skulls there is a range of variation
Somewhere along the line somebody decided to delineate certain sets of measurement ranges into categories , "Negroid", "Mongoloid", "Caucasoid", Australoid"
So you say this mummy is caucasoid
Question, on this basis in your opinion does that have any relation to what extent she had deep rooted African ancestry
or would you say that you can't tell that from measuring a skull ?
I don't know exactly what you mean by "deep rooted african" but such traits are more commonly found in Eurasia than sub-saharan africa. The only place in SSA where such traits are found in substantial number are in the Horn but that's no surprise since horners have important amount of west eurasian ancestry and plot closer to west eurasians than other SSA groups.
You are amazingly dense, that's it's a sight to see.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Asking what I meant by "deep rooted African" ancestry is not so clear when looking at the 15K Iberomaurusian remains in Morocco
Posted by Forty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
The wig bit is a white supremacist dog whistle. This is any ole racist white wash.
Posted by Forty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
@Forty2Tribes the description of your pic says wife of Psamtik II not shep-en-isis
Posted by Forty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: @Forty2Tribes the description of your pic says wife of Psamtik II not shep-en-isis
My point is the wig and similar nose from a similar era. Notice they gave her more flared nostrils like the statue but the wig bias was their cover for 'guessing' light skin and freckles. They couldn't give her a European nose so they ignored the the hairstyles of the people to justify white skin.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Forty2Tribes:
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: @Forty2Tribes the description of your pic says wife of Psamtik II not shep-en-isis
My point is the wig and similar nose from a similar era. Notice they gave her more flared nostrils like the statue but the wig bias was their cover for 'guessing' light skin and freckles. They couldn't give her a European nose so they ignored the the hairstyles of the people to justify white skin.
this is white skin ???
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:Originally posted by Forty2Tribes: The wig bit is a white supremacist dog whistle. This is any ole racist white wash.
Why is it white supremacist to depict her without hair? It seems they focused more on the facial features than the hair. Otherwise there is a lot of examples of both natural hair and wigs in ancient Egypt.
quote: In iconography, both men and women wore wigs. Underneath them, women kept long hair and men almost invariably wore it “short or shaven.” In contrast, non-elites working outside the home were often shown with their natural locks.
Already from predynastic time there are examples of hair which are revealed in archaeological excavations.
The type of hair seemed to vary. Not everyone in ancient Egypt had an afro.
quote: The vast majority of hair samples discovered at the site were cynotrichous (Caucasian) in type as opposed to heliotrichous (Negroid), a feature which is standard throughout dynastic times.
quote: Although most of the hair found is the natural dark brown color, natural red hair was also discovered in association with male Burial no. 79, his hair originally falling in a wavy style ending in small ringlet-type open-center curls. Together with other burials uncovered this season, this reveals the great attention paid to appearance, the hair obviously of great importance to both men and women alike.
If you were to go by pigment genes, someone with that complexion would be predicted to have light skin.
Posted by Forty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Why is it white supremacist to depict her without hair?
People who have power can afford to have cognitive dissonance without getting checked. They put up walls to protect themselves from getting checked. You have a lot of white supremacist trolls online who consider any greater African looking hairstyle to be a wig or a helmet. When I read that they were ignoring wigs and jewelry and Its someone who lived in ancient Thebes I already knew they are going to white wash her based on a familiar dog whistle. I'm thinking Shepenisis had a more 'Nubian' wig style wig and attire. That is why I compared her to Mehytenweskhet
quote: Although most of the hair found is the natural dark brown color, natural red hair was also discovered in association with male Burial no. 79, his hair originally falling in a wavy style ending in small ringlet-type open-center curls. Together with other burials uncovered this season, this reveals the great attention paid to appearance, the hair obviously of great importance to both men and women alike.
no. 79 out of how many? Ramses II was 90+ and red hair. It wasn't his natural hair. I don't regard that as a natural color unless its albinism. It could be bleached or camel urine etc. Why else would someone have red hair in that region? Did the Irish invade Egypt too? But that is besides the point. 1 redhead out of 80+ people is whatever. I think some ancient Egyptians looked like darker skin Palestinians and some looked like...
She could be the exception in Thebes but to also give Shepenisis the same complexion as a modern European is basically just making a white woman out of an Egyptian/Nubian as I would have predicted after reading about how they are going to ignore the wig and jewelry.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
According to a forensic analysis of Ramses IIs hair it was
quote: The mummy was forensically tested by Professor Pierre-Fernand Ceccaldi, the chief forensic scientist at the Criminal Identification Laboratory of Paris. Professor Ceccaldi determined that: "Hair, astonishingly preserved, showed some complementary data — especially about pigmentation: Ramesses II was a ginger haired 'cymnotriche leucoderma'." The description given here refers to a fair-skinned person with wavy ginger hair. Subsequent microscopic inspection of the roots of Ramesses II's hair proved that the king's hair originally was red, which suggests that he came from a family of redheads. This has more than just cosmetic significance: in ancient Egypt people with red hair were associated with the deity Set, the slayer of Osiris, and the name of Ramesses II's father, Seti I, means "follower of Seth".
Ceccaldi, Pierre-Fernand (1987). "Recherches sur les momies: Ramsès II". Bulletin de l'Académie de Médecine. 171:1 (1): 119.
Seems that he might have been red haired as young, then when he got old and his hair turned white he dyed it with Henna.
But most Egyptians would of course have had dark brown or black hair.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
yes ramses was really red haired and it was common to associate this hair color with Seth.
Anyway today you can still find many north africans with such feature :
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
let's see a person with this skin tone and red hair
where's a photo of a man like this Egyptian but with red hair?
Posted by History123 (Member # 23551) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
what's going on here, this guy on the right seems to be Chinese?
Kinda does you're right.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: As expected I see that you haven't even took the time to check the paper because their whole method is detailed in there and some aspect you said couldn't be reconstructed were in fact preserved thanks to the good state preservation of the mummy ; see for example:
Due to the mummified ear, the shape of the ear could be reconstructed quite accurately, in contrast to pure skeletons where ears are basically reconstructed with a standard ear.
As expected, you misrepresent what I posted. My response wasn't so much to the results of the paper but rather a general statement on reconstructions in general.
quote:You pretend bias is present because of many labs knowing the origin of the mummy but then proceed to post tutankhamun as an example when actually one of the lab who worked on him were "double-blinded" and yet reached overall the same results as the other labs:
National Geographic has unveiled three independent attempts to reconstruct the face of the boy pharaoh Tutankhamen , who died 3300 years ago. The three teams - French, US, and Egyptian - based their reconstructions on 1700 computed tomography (CT) scans of the mummy that were made by the Egyptians early this year (Science, 28 january, p. 511). The reconstructions differ on details of soft tissue, such as the end of the nose. [...] The Egyptian and French Teams worked with the CT scans knowing they belonged to Tut; the NYU team didn't know. https://www.proquest.com/openview/5f8caf2d57b6a76f814778ef1f07d324/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=1256
I "pretend" nothing! Yes I know one of the teams who worked on the Nat Geo reconstruction was double-blinded, yet they were just one team and can't be held responsible for the totality of the end result. The 2nd reconstruction from the top was done by an American team working for the Discovery Channel which was also doubl-blinded yet their end results of different from the Nat-Geo one and the the very last reconstruction on the bottom is different still. So What is your point? That bias does not exist? What about skin color? You mean to tell me the depiction of fair skin for both Tut and Shep-en-Isis is accurate and based on the mummies as well?
quote:Anyway why do you assume that baladi from the far south of Egypt are necessarily representative of all ancient egyptians? Why do you assume any substantial difference when it comes to tissue depth between arabs/europeans and "baladis" if that was really the case you admit all these forensic anthropologists are wrong? Why do you assume all the studies used arabs or europeans as references?
LOL Again, your reading comprehension is way off! Your list of what you say are my assumptions actually come from Ahmed Saleh himself who is an Egyptian Egyptologist who works in the Supreme Council of Antiquities! It is he not I, who says that rural Baladi not just from the far south, but those in from that area especially because they have the least foreign admixture best represent Egyptians. It is he who, having a masters degree in biomedical forensics, says that most forensic teams rely on tissue depth studies based on Europeans and Arabs only and not Baladi. If that is the case wouldn't there be inaccuracies in their results? Unless you assume there is no difference between Baladi and their Eurasian European/Arab counterparts.
quote:Anyway overall we can clearly see that this woman was perfectly caucasoid, you can try to darkwash her if you want and you'll see that she will still not look black. I also challenge you to find a single facial reconstruction of ancient egyptians that look "black" (serious reconstructions of course with their papers). ..
LOL @ "darkwash"! There is no such phrase. The phrase is either white-wash and the term you are looking for is black-paint/dark-paint. The former is what is done to ancient Egyptians all the time. As for the term "caucasoid", apparently you don’t know that label has been used on many peoples from Rift Valley Africans, to Pacific Islanders, to Holocene Indigenous Americans. Unless you can specify what exactly "caucasoid" entails that term is useless and so is “negroid” for that matter. As for your challenge, LOL you obviously haven’t seen many reconstructions except for the recent white-washed ones. I just showed you earlier examples of Tutankhamun from double-blinded experts here are more:
20th dynasty priest Nesy-Amun
22nd or 23rd dynasty priest Peten-Amun
Ptolemaic Era priest Nesmin
12th Dynasty Khnum-Nakht
Discovery Channel’s 2003 (double-blinded) reconstruction of the Younger Lady
Berber used as a model for the Salman Mummy reconstruction
quote:…There is absolutely no reason for Egyptian, European and Japanese anthropologists to be biased. Let's be real, if the reconstruction looked let's say fully Nigerian or Senegalese you wouldn't have question it in the slightest.
Wrong! The reason for bias boils down to simple human psychology. Many people have skewed preconceptions about Egyptians based on erroneous narratives of “Caucasians” and portrayals like in Hollywood, not to mention that there exists the tendency among some to self-project their image on to a famed people. A perfect example of the latter is the 2006 reconstruction of a 2nd Intermediate period mummy named Senu by a Japanese team and here is their result below:
This is why forensic experts like Richard Neaves say that forensic reconstruction is as much an art as it is a science and to ensure objectivity the artists should be double-blinded so as not to input their bias into their work. Of course you don’t know this or deny all this because you won’t admit that you yourself are bias and definitely in error when it comes to Egyptian phenotype. Speaking of which, in regards to your last brainless strawman sentence, how many times must we tell you that ‘black’ is not limited to Guinea West Africans like Nigerians or Senegalese anymore than ‘white’ is limited to Swedes and Norwegians, wake up to reality! To everyone else in this forum with sense, it’s relatively easy to get away with white-washing many Egyptian reconstructions. This is because many (though not all) Egyptians do display narrow features typically associated with “Caucasians” i.e. leptoprosopy (narrow face) and leptorhiny (narrow nose). However such features are common to not only North Africans but East Africans as well as discussed here.
Of course Antalas and others of his ilk automatically assume that East Africans who possess such features do so because of “Caucasoid” or “Eurasian” admixture. However, genetic studies show that Eurasian admixed peoples in East Africa are a minority with the majority having no such admixture while still possessing the same facial features. I already provided a link above to a thread citing a study on the genes responsible for the narrowing effect of the face and they have nothing to do with Eurasians! This is why people from the Horn region, especially Ethiopia are good candidates for representing the ancient Egyptian phenotype next to North Sudanese and of course, modern Baladi themselves. The use of stereotypical Guinea or Bantu looking Africans as a contrast to the Egyptians phenotype is as I said a stupid strawman since black Africans are not limited to the former phenotype. So it becomes easy to white-wash Egyptians who have narrow features by simply giving them light or fair complexions in reconstructions. The funny thing is that even with the white-washing many reconstructions look at best ‘mixed-race’ or ‘biracial’.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Then there are those mummies whose broad features like platyrhine nose is too obvious but the artists choose to white-wash them anyway.
Again proving that forensic reconstruction is as much an art as it is a science and that artistic/creative aspect can go far especially when the artists involved have a bias as to what the subject looked like before even beginning the process.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Here are reconstructions that approximate to real life:
Nesperennub, 22nd dynasty priest from Waset (Thebes)
modern Baladi boy from the same region of Egypt
Meresamun, 22nd dynasty temple songstress
Kola Boof, half-Egyptian/half-North Sudanese author and poet
the topic is shep-en-Isis though
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Then there are those mummies whose broad features like platyrhine nose is too obvious but the artists choose to white-wash them anyway.
Again proving that forensic reconstruction is as much an art as it is a science and that artistic/creative aspect can go far especially when the artists involved have a bias as to what the subject looked like before even beginning the process.
Do you know the names of the first reconstruction?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thereal:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Then there are those mummies whose broad features like platyrhine nose is too obvious but the artists choose to white-wash them anyway.
Again proving that forensic reconstruction is as much an art as it is a science and that artistic/creative aspect can go far especially when the artists involved have a bias as to what the subject looked like before even beginning the process.
Do you know the names of the first reconstruction?
The first image is from a BBC program on the reconstruction of a mummy for a person named Tahemaa in the 25th dynasty. And like Djehuti says, they totally white wash the woman even though this is during the era of the Kushite Dynasty, so according to them even then these people were still white. White with Afros in Africa but not black. These people are pathetic.
The whole point of reconstructions is to make sure to keep these white images in the minds of modern people who have not seen the art from the tombs and temples of the Nile Those images are so unambiguously black that they have to hide them and will not publish them in full. So it is nothing but propaganda and nothing else. And that idea that these are idealized portraits has nothing to do with it as all art from the ancient world is idealized. Doesn't change their overall features.
And again, these images by themselves without context have no historical value. The late period of the Dynastic Era was marked by shift to South and rule by high priests of Amun. During this era from the 19th to 21st dynasties there was a mini rennaissance in culture along the Nile and it was during this time that many of the ancient mummies were recovered, restored and reburied. And it is from this period that we get the best preserved mummies of the entire history of the Nile with undeniable black African features. So of course they aren't going to talk about that because this is before even the 25th dynasty which also came to power through the institution of Amun.
Also, the high priests of Amun were also often the Viceroys/Governers of Kush to the South. And many of these late period priests of Amun were also Viceroy's of Kush. This means they ruled an area from Waset/Thebes/Luxor down to the 3rd Cataract. And also during the 21st dynasty, females began to show up in this position. This institution fell apart in the 23rd dynasty.
quote: His father was Pinedjem I, who was the Theban High Priest of Amun and de facto ruler of Upper Egypt from 1070 BC, then declared himself pharaoh in 1054 BC and Masaharta succeeded him as high priest. His mother was probably Duathathor-Henuttawy, the daughter of Ramesses XI, last ruler of the 20th dynasty. His aunt Tentamun, another daughter of Ramesses married Pharaoh Smendes I, who ruled Lower Egypt. One of Masaharta's brothers was Psusennes I, who followed Smendes's successor, the short-lived Amenemnisu as pharaoh.[1]
His wife is likely to have been the Singer of Amun Tayuheret, whose mummy was found in the Deir el-Bahri cachette.[2] It is possible that he had a daughter called Isetemkheb, since a lady by this name is called the daughter of a high priest on her funerary objects; it is also possible, though, that she was Menkheperre's daughter.[3]
The God's Wife of Amun during Masaharta's reign seems to have been his sister Maatkare.
His mother was Henuttawy who I posted on the first page of this thread:
And this mummy of Henuttawy is important and relevant to this discussion of "mummy reconstructions" because it shows the two faces of Egyptology. One face is the very thorough and meticulous scientific side, where they do things like restoring tombs, recover artifacts and so forth. That side of Egyptology is very advanced and was able to reconstruct Henuttawy's mummy that was badly damaged:
That reconstruction took skill and meticulous attention to detail in understanding the ancient mummification process, which tried to preserve life like tissue appearance by packing the mummy with other materials. For them to have done this restoration means they understood full well the general appearance of this mummy and others of the period and the fleshy features that were being portrayed by the use of these packing materials.
Yet the other side of Egyptology, the propaganda side, is not about this at all and only exists to portray the ancient Nile as somehow white or Eurasian looking. This is the total opposite of the scientific side and they purposely leave out and ignore all the details and facts that they have gathered and collected over the last 150 years to promote it. And these mummy reconstructions fall into that category as they ignore all these details of the mummification process and physical features being preserved by the late period mummification process on purpose. Data that should otherwise be used as part of any reconstruction of mummies from the period. And this is on top of suppressing the artistic evidence and the historical evidence for the same purposes of promoting a narrative.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: the topic is shep-en-Isis though
Skinner and Lazenby (1983:50) describe the Negroid forehead as steep, but El-Najjar and McWilliams (1978:74) describe the Negroid forehead as rounded. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: Your paper literally show that most SSAs are more prognathic than most west eurasians the only exception I suppose are horners but that actually confirms what I always said that people from the Horn of Africa are mostly caucasoid and genetically plot closer to west eurasians than other SSAs but afrocentrists started to say I'm defending the racist "hamitic theory" and that it doesn't matter as long as horners are seen as black by europeans lol.
LOL Again, the problem is you use racial typology-- generalizing or stereotyping Africans to conform to certain physical parameters and when they don't fit them then that means they have "Eurasian" admixture or influence.
FYI: Eurasian admixture in the Horn only accounts for 40% (more recent estimates 37%) of the population of old Ethiopia (including and especially Eritrea) and unsurprisingly the highest frequencies are around the coasts near Aden. The vast majority of Horn Africans who have such "caucasoid" features still have nil Eurasian ancestry so your argument is null. So called "caucasoid" features are found in Mesolithic crania from the Rift Valley in Kenya i.e. Gamble's Cave and Naivasha so the prehistoric people of Kenya were Eurasians too, huh? LOL
By the way, orthognathy is also common among Khoisan peoples of Southern Africa does that make them Eurasian mixed as well? And please don't hash up the error from the Mota study!
And yes you are a supporter of the Hamitic Hypothesis per your own claims of "Eurasians" presence in North Africa and the Horn based on certain features but genetics has debunked this ages ago and still is.
quote:Moreover "caucasoid/caucasian" isn't only defined by prognathism but a whole set of specific traits here some examples :
Indeed and some of those traits are shared by "Negroids"
Does this mean that West Eurasians have African admixture? Because some Eurasians do including one-third of Europeans! LOL Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Skinner and Lazenby (1983:50) describe the Negroid forehead as steep, but El-Najjar and McWilliams (1978:74) describe the Negroid forehead as rounded.
who cares?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Apparently Antalas does, which is why he posts charts on nonmetric 'racial' traits. I merely post a reubttal.
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: Only americans are confused about it and many afro-americans are also highly mixed which can add more confusion of course but in Europe or North africa "black" is well defined and no one would ever consider egyptians or indians as black.
Most ancient egyptians were blacks and some still are,but the original egyptians were black. Most egyptians today are brown,some are black and some are white.
The original folks of india were black. Later india became black brown and white. Today most are brown,some are black and some are white.
Now moving on. This below was posted a few year ago about african americans in real life when it comes dna info and i will post some info about blacks,whites,latinos etc.. in sci-fi,fantasy etc.. etc..since i am into comics,comicbook shows,movies etc.. when it comes to dna info. I think you know where i am going with this and i wanted to post this here for awhile now. I did some of it years ago but here is more details since then.
quote:
A 2003 study found an average of 18.6% (±1.5%) European admixture in a population sample of 416 African Americans from Washington, DC. Studies of other populations in other areas have found differing percentages of ethnicity. Twenty percent of African Americans have more than 25% European ancestry, reflecting the long history of unions between the groups. The "mostly African" group is substantially African, as 70% of African Americans in this group have less than 15% European ancestry. The 20% of African Americans in the "mostly mixed" group (2.7% of US population) have between 25% and 50% European ancestry.
I trust the MARK D. SHRIVER dna testing ONE MORE. quote- According to DNA analysis led in 2006 by Penn State geneticist Mark D. Shriver, around 58 percent of African Americans have at least 12.5% European ancestry (equivalent to one European great-grandparent and his/her forebears), 19.6 percent of African Americans have at least 25% European ancestry (equivalent to one European grandparent and his/her forebears), and 1 percent of African Americans have at least 50% European ancestry (equivalent to one European parent and his/her forebears). According to Shriver, around 5 percent of African Americans also have at least 12.5% Native American ancestry (equivalent to one Native American great-grandparent and his/her forebears).
The average african american have little recent european dna,not alot.
quote: The average admixture rate for african americans looking at the study above is lower then 20%,it is around 12%,and i have seen studies that said the average was 10% depending on who is doing the study,so clearly the admixture study varies,but 12% to 10% is more accurate to me.I just wanted to mention this or be clear about this,because from what i read recently and got from some dna experts is that some african americans by the way do not have european admixture at all,and for those that do, the admixture levels on average is lower then folks think looking at the study above, just saying.Most african americans do not have any form of native american dna by the way looking at that study.
quote:
Most african americans have some form european admixture(most do not have european admixture in comics,cartoons and characters that are played in live action movies and shows however).
There are questions if most have some form of admixture or not in real life(our universe).Most that have admixture is not a huge admixture anyway(so the recent european admixture had no impact on the phenotype of most african americans) and they look or most look like the ethnic groups they come from in africa anyway. Africans vary from all types of looks.In africa you could see africans(depending on the ethnic group and individuals) that look more like african americans.I should say african americans look more like the africans they come from. Africans have the most diverse look on earth from phenotype to skin tone and size..Some folks forget that. There are unmixed black africans with varied skin tones and some are brown skin to light skin who are unmixed.
Note-when i say european admixture,i am talking from those that look white.Not from first pre-historic europeans were originally black anyway since they further you go back the only humans on earth were black africans.
quote: The average admixture rate for african americans looking at the some studies above is lower then 20%,it is around 12%,and i have seen studies that said the average was 10% and others say 15 to 17% on average depending on who is doing the study,so clearly the admixture study varies,but 12% to 10% is more accurate to me.I just wanted to mention this or be clear about this,because from what i read recently and got from some dna experts is that some african americans by the way do not have european admixture at all,and for those that do, the admixture levels on average is lower then folks think looking at the study above, just saying.Most african americans do not have any form of native american dna by the way looking at that study.
This was written by someone else.
quote: QUOTE- The facial composites look well within the range of what can be seen among African-Americans and Nigerians. I don't see how the African-American sample looks more West Indian or Caribbean. You really think that a 10% or so Afro-Caribbean influence would seriously affect any average? Not even a 10% white nordic influence would affect how the average looks like to any significant degree. Any type of admixture is only noticeable at the >25% range.
So it is not even 20%.So it seems that 25% and up recent european admixture is needed to change the phenotype of blacks,but not always of course.Of course unmixed blacks with more of a european look it would be the same for them too. There have been some more recent talk about maybe more african americans have no european admixture at all or maybe most african americans do not have any admixture and a big con job is happening.Another point,it takes at least 25% or up for european admixture to have a impact on african phenotype and skin tone or color,and even then that is not always the case.We all know that unmixed africans vary in skin tone as well.I am just saying.
Anyway Most african american look dominantly black african.
Most white americans have recent african admixture and some have native american/asian.I wonder why this not mention often.Hmmm.
quote:
Okay the above is real life by the way but when comes to american sci-fi/fantasy superhero comics it's a different story/different universes,laws,history etc.. and most african americans and white americans for example do not have any other race admixture at all.
Here is another example of comics vs real life and how different it is when it comes to background etc..
For latinos most are shown as poc in comics, but in real life in the u.s. census for example most are classified as white. If comics followed the example of what most latinos call themselves in real life then most latinos would be shown as white in comics too,but that's not the case.
quote: Note-in superhero sci-fi- fantasy comics most african americans are unmixed blacks, racism is less then in the real world and alot more blacks live in north africa then they do in the real world but those are different universes,with alot of different history,more advance technological achievements etc.. Of course writers jobs is to focus on superhero stories and not bring in to much real world stories,politics,dna stuff etc.. in comics.Besides the comic industry and many of the characters were created before most folks knew anything about dna etc..,so writers in the past and today still keep simple as possible when it comes to background, history etc.. Of course alot of blacks still live in north africa today,they just the not majority anymore like they were in the past and at one time they were the only population in north africa.
Here is more of summary from the above,you know kinda repeating what i said but shorter form and some added info by the way.
quote:
Not all african americans have european dna.It's about 80's or less.If you include other black americans it's even less than that.Most other black americans who are not african american by the way are unmixed blacks.Anyway some folks believe most ethnic african americans do not have any european dna at all and most really unmixed blacks.Anyway worldwide most blacks are unmixed anyway. In africa most are unmixed and that is where most black live. Note-in fantasy superhero comics like dc,marvel etc..most african/black americans and most whites americans are unmixed anyway.Keep mind those are alternate universe where in dc for example earth 2 south africa was free earlier and in one alternate universe in marvel for example there is a earth that is still all black.
quote: African people have a range of physical variation and don't need any inspiration or mixes from cold-climate/light skinned Europeans or Asiatics to explain why. Features like narrow noses, thin lips, height etc are all indigenous to Africa. Africa has both the highest phenotypic diversity and the highest genetic diversity in the world and don’t need cold-climate/light skin inspiration for that established fact. All cold-climate/light skinned Europeans and Asiatics are SUBSETS of original African diversity. (Keita 2004; Tishkoff 2002, Ely et al, 2006, Stevanovitch 2004)
and African peoples are the most diverse in the world whether analyzed by DNA or skeletal or cranial methods. (Keita 1996;Rethelford, 2001; Bianchi 2004, Yurco 1989; Godde 2009)
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I "pretend" nothing! Yes I know one of the teams who worked on the Nat Geo reconstruction was double-blinded, yet they were just one team and can't be held responsible for the totality of the end result. The 2nd reconstruction from the top was done by an American team working for the Discovery Channel which was also doubl-blinded yet their end results of different from the Nat-Geo one and the the very last reconstruction on the bottom is different still. So What is your point? That bias does not exist? What about skin color? You mean to tell me the depiction of fair skin for both Tut and Shep-en-Isis is accurate and based on the mummies as well?
Stop being in denial You can't have a more accurate reconstruction than this literally 3 labs on the same skull and all reached the same results :
and there is absolutely no problem with his skin tone it seems like you forget north africans can tan.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: LOL Again, your reading comprehension is way off! Your list of what you say are my assumptions actually come from Ahmed Saleh himself who is an Egyptian Egyptologist who works in the Supreme Council of Antiquities! It is he not I, who says that rural Baladi not just from the far south, but those in from that area especially because they have the least foreign admixture best represent Egyptians. It is he who, having a masters degree in biomedical forensics, says that most forensic teams rely on tissue depth studies based on Europeans and Arabs only and not Baladi. If that is the case wouldn't there be inaccuracies in their results? Unless you assume there is no difference between Baladi and their Eurasian European/Arab counterparts.
They are representative of ancient upper egyptians certainly not all of egypt. Yourself agreed with me on the diversity that characterized AEs all the way back to the predynastic era but you didn't care since for you it's all about "the culture appeared in the south first !".
as for tissue depth some used modern egyptian references like in the nebiri paper and arab are actually the closest people to both ancient and modern egyptian when it comes to genetics so using them wouldn't be far fetched at all you're just trying to desesperately find excuses.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: LOL @ "darkwash"! There is no such phrase. The phrase is either white-wash and the term you are looking for is black-paint/dark-paint. The former is what is done to ancient Egyptians all the time. As for the term "caucasoid", apparently you don’t know that label has been used on many peoples from Rift Valley Africans, to Pacific Islanders, to Holocene Indigenous Americans. Unless you can specify what exactly "caucasoid" entails that term is useless and so is “negroid” for that matter. As for your challenge, LOL you obviously haven’t seen many reconstructions except for the recent white-washed ones. I just showed you earlier examples of Tutankhamun from double-blinded experts here are more:
20th dynasty priest Nesy-Amun
22nd or 23rd dynasty priest Peten-Amun
Ptolemaic Era priest Nesmin
12th Dynasty Khnum-Nakht
Discovery Channel’s 2003 (double-blinded) reconstruction of the Younger Lady
Berber used as a model for the Salman Mummy reconstruction
I suppose north africans and a good part of arabs are black then XD These reconstructions look exactly like modern egyptians thanks for confirming what I said the only exception is khnum but apparently he wasn't fully egyptian that's why his half brother looks completely different.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
and there is absolutely no problem with his skin tone it seems like you forget north africans can tan.
So this is the typical North African skin tone if they were to live in France?
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
and there is absolutely no problem with his skin tone it seems like you forget north africans can tan.
So this is the typical North African skin tone if they were to live in France?
yes without a tan a good portion of the population has this skin color. I already posted pictures of me when I'm tanned I am literally brown like those "baladi" djehuti like to post :
yet my original color is much lighter than this as I've shown before. So if I was an AE I would have been depicted with the conventional reddish color while my skin could have been much lighter.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^ your head is in shadow there with the sun behind you
we need to see this color
and by what logic would this be a tan if they were there for thousands of years? Why would they not have the natural skin tone suited to the area?
This is not a Maghrebian. This is a person of the Nile Valley river system
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ your head is in shadow there with the sun behind you
we need to see this color
and by what logic would this be a tan if they were there for thousands of years? Why would they not have the natural skin tone suited to the area?
This is not a Maghrebian. This is a person of the Nile Valley river system
It's not as simple as that admixture will also play its role in this + colors were conventional in AE art as pointed out by many scholars do you really think all egyptians from the delta to aswan had that reddish skin tone ?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
So if I was an AE I would have been depicted with the conventional reddish color
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
I will not start spamming pics of course but I think we both agree most upper egyptians have roughly the same skin tone as me when I'm tanned (also my skin might get darker in upper egypt) with some being darker. Some family members literally become dark like many indians when they are tanned.
The only major difference between me and them it's of course facial features I have a more maghrebi/med look meanwhile those upper egyptians look more ssa admixed
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
Go in the countryside of Morocco:
^^ so when they take off their clothes
their skin looks like this ?? >>
If those Moroccans were in Morocco for 15,000 + years hasn't all their skin been adapted They had their skin covered the whole time?
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Funny how when anyone else on here compares Egyptians to themselves or family you suddenly have a problem, but when you do it its OK.
Your skintone is no where near the ave. Upper Egyptian in that pic, nor are you Red or Brown like the color depicted in Egyptian art. (You're a light "Tawny" Beige)
Even if you were, what's your point? I have family members who have the same tone as the lightest Upper Egyptians, hell I (When Im not darkend by the hot ass Texas Sun) can have similar tones to the Darker Upper Egyptians.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Antalas:
Go in the countryside of Morocco:
Weird how the A. Egyptians knew how depict themselves and their neighbors...I guess the were not so dumb as to depict themselves darker than what they really were Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
Go in the countryside of Morocco:
^^ so when they take off their clothes
their skin looks like this ?? >>
yes :
Also I never said all north africans had that skin color but it wouldn't surprise me if many pharaohs had it
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Funny how when anyone else on here compares Egyptians to themselves or family you suddenly have a problem, but when you do it its OK.
Your skintone is no where near the ave. Upper Egyptian in that pic, nor are you Red or Brown like the color depicted in Egyptian art. (You're a light "Tawny" Beige)
Even if you were, what's your point? I have family members who have the same tone as the lightest Upper Egyptians, hell I (When Im not darkend by the hot ass Texas Sun) can have similar tones to the Darker Upper Egyptians.
Of course it's ok since I'm north african and much closer to egyptian than any west african/AA. That's like comparing spaniards to greeks there is no problem but if you start comparing chinese to greeks then it's of course a problem.
My point was that the skin tone of tut in the reconstruction is not necessarily inaccurate nor does it mean he couldn't tan. Under the sun of Egypt I would have been brown/dark while my skin color by default is quite light. Also why do you bring your family members ? You guys have all sorts of foreign admixture especially NW european. It would make more sense for you to compare your kin to afro-latinos, cap verdeans, etc
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Antalas:
Go in the countryside of Morocco:
Weird how the A. Egyptians knew how depict themselves and their neighbors...I guess the were not so dumb as to depict themselves darker than what they really were
your point ? Overall even today Egyptians are darker than us.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: Of course it's ok since I'm north african and much closer to egyptian than any west african/AA.
Also Nassabean
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: [QB]I'm african and my ancestors too yet does that mean I'm related to other africans or that I'm physically or culturally similar to them ? No therefore highlighting the african origin of something is meaningless
quote:My own fucking ancestors had almost nothing to do with egypt let alone yours lol
At least stick to your own philosophy. Also has every single A. Egyptian mummy and remain been tested? Are you seriously trying to claim A. Egyptian was void of any African similar to West Africans in 3,000 years of Dynastic Egypt?
Again what is the point?
quote:My point was that the skin tone of tut in the reconstruction is not necessarily inaccurate nor does it mean he couldn't tan. Under the sun of Egypt I would have been brown/dark while my skin color by default is quite light. Also why do you bring your family members ? You guys have all sorts of foreign admixture especially NW european. It would make more sense for you to compare your kin to afro-latinos, cap verdeans, etc
Bruh you're not Dark, you're very light skinned in a pic where you claim is a dark skin. Also how would the Egyptian Sun make you Darker? Do you have examples of you being that Dark, if not then how do you know.
There's literally Egyptians in Egypt who match the Reddish Brown color, are you claiming the A. Egyptians were too dumb to depict themselves accurately?
I bring up my family to show that Africans all over the planet can have those tones as well. OK, so my mixture is mainly European and Native American, there Africans in East Africa and the Sahara who have those skin tones/features as the A. Egyptians and modern Upper Egyptians..
Again what is your point?
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Seriously Bruh, My Point
What IS YOUR POINT?
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Antalas:
Go in the countryside of Morocco:
Weird how the A. Egyptians knew how depict themselves and their neighbors...I guess the were not so dumb as to depict themselves darker than what they really were
your point ? Overall even today Egyptians are darker than us.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
look a high yella mixed in with the redbones
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: Of course it's ok since I'm north african and much closer to egyptian than any west african/AA.Also Nassabean
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Antalas: I'm african and my ancestors too yet does that mean I'm related to other africans or that I'm physically or culturally similar to them ? No therefore highlighting the african origin of something is meaningless
My own fucking ancestors had almost nothing to do with egypt let alone yours lolAt least stick to your own philosophy.
How does that contradict anything of what I said ? I said the comparison is still valid since we're much closer to each other (physically/genetically) than you and egyptians. I did not say we're genetically the same people or that their history is mine too.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Also has every single A. Egyptian mummy and remain been tested? Are you seriously trying to claim A. Egyptian was void of any African similar to West Africans in 3,000 years of Dynastic Egypt?
Their SSA would be mostly dinka-like and east african in general not really west african even modern egyptians barely have west african ancestry despite the slave trade. Also even if they had let's say 5% west african ancestry what does that change ? With such logic I can start claiming 3/4 of the planet.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Bruh you're not Dark, you're very light skinned in a pic where you claim is a dark skin. Also how would the Egyptian Sun make you Darker? Do you have examples of you being that Dark, if not then how do you know.
There's literally Egyptians in Egypt who match the Reddish Brown color, are you claiming the A. Egyptians were too dumb to depict themselves accurately?
I bring up my family to show that Africans all over the planet can have those tones as well. OK, so my mixture is mainly European and Native American, there Africans in East Africa and the Sahara who have those skin tones/features as the A. Egyptians and modern Upper Egyptians..
Again what is your point?
I'm literally brown skinned in the pic and that was in Greece...just imagine in Upper egypt with its higher UV index. And what are you talking about ? Do you deny that the "reddish brown color" was conventional ? Egyptians depicted themselves accurately yet that doesn't mean all egyptians had that reddish skin tone some could have been darker or lighter + we have to take into account tanning.
Overall whether east or west africans both are much darker than egyptians (this includes upper egyptian) and this was probably already the case in Ancient times :
quote:The evidence clearly shows that those Greco-Roman authors who refer to skin color and other physical traits distinguish sharply between Ethiopians (Nubians) and Egyptians, and rarely do they refer to the Egyptians, even though they were described as darker than themselves. No Greek doubted that the Egyptians were darker than the Greeks, but not as dark as black Africans
Shavit, Y. (2001). History in Black: African-Americans in Search of an Ancient Past. London: Frank Cass. p. 154.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] Seriously Bruh, My Point
What IS YOUR POINT?
Seems like you're confused : We talked about king tut only not the whole egyptian population. I simply said that the skin color proposed in the reconstruction is not necessarily far-fetched and he could have been darker via tanning.
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Funny how when anyone else on here compares Egyptians to themselves or family you suddenly have a problem, but when you do it its OK.
Your skintone is no where near the ave. Upper Egyptian in that pic, nor are you Red or Brown like the color depicted in Egyptian art. (You're a light "Tawny" Beige)
Even if you were, what's your point? I have family members who have the same tone as the lightest Upper Egyptians, hell I (When Im not darkend by the hot ass Texas Sun) can have similar tones to the Darker Upper Egyptians.
Of course it's ok since I'm north african and much closer to egyptian than any west african/AA. That's like comparing spaniards to greeks there is no problem but if you start comparing chinese to greeks then it's of course a problem.
My point was that the skin tone of tut in the reconstruction is not necessarily inaccurate nor does it mean he couldn't tan. Under the sun of Egypt I would have been brown/dark while my skin color by default is quite light. Also why do you bring your family members ? You guys have all sorts of foreign admixture especially NW european. It would make more sense for you to compare your kin to afro-latinos, cap verdeans, etc
There's a northwestern portion of West Africa and I like how you think West Africa equals Bantu speakers as if a negro phenotype is only relegated to the west.
🙄🙄🙄🤣🤣🤣
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: There's a northwestern portion of West Africa and I like how you West Africa if Bantu speakers are only relegated to the west and that's where negro Africans exist.
🙄🙄🙄🤣🤣🤣 [/QB]
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: I'm literally brown skinned in the pic and that was in Greece...just imagine in Upper egypt with its higher UV index. And what are you talking about ?
Bro you're delusional, Ive seen Hispanics(Who are mainly 40-60% European admixed) Darker than you, you're literally light beige, so weird that you want to be brown...
quote:Do you deny that the "reddish brown color" was conventional ? Egyptians depicted themselves accurately yet that doesn't mean all egyptians had that reddish skin tone some could have been darker or lighter + we have to take into account tanning.
Where have I denied this, the fact is that that is the color the A. Egyptians choose to represent themselves as and there's literally people still alive in Egypt with that color/feature...so why all this hoop-jumping
quote:Overall whether east or west africans both are much darker than egyptians (this includes upper egyptian) and this was probably already the case in Ancient times :
Weird how the only other people outside of some Neheshy tribes the A. Egyptians depicted as similar to themselves were the people of Punt(East Africa)
quote:The evidence clearly shows that those Greco-Roman authors who refer to skin color and other physical traits distinguish sharply between Ethiopians (Nubians) and Egyptians, and rarely do they refer to the Egyptians, even though they were described as darker than themselves. No Greek doubted that the Egyptians were darker than the Greeks, but not as dark as black Africans
Shavit, Y. (2001). History in Black: African-Americans in Search of an Ancient Past. London: Frank Cass. p. 154. [/qb][/QUOTE]
Ok so the "Atheiopians" in Greek Times were literally the blackest people on Earth, ie various Nilo Saharan people.
That quote does'nt even take into account the complex relationship A. Egypt had with other African people's and cultures, sloppy Dog Whistling neo-Hamite revisionism trying to label one set of Africans as "Black Africans"
OK This is a black African
This is not
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Ok but why Speculate?
Why not just use the damn tone the people who actually saw him alive used.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] Seriously Bruh, My Point
What IS YOUR POINT?
Seems like you're confused : We talked about king tut only not the whole egyptian population. I simply said that the skin color proposed in the reconstruction is not necessarily far-fetched and he could have been darker via tanning.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Bro you're delusional, Ive seen Hispanics(Who are mainly 40-60% European admixed) Darker than you, you're literally light beige, so weird that you want to be brown...
Yes so what ? Have you at least seen my other pictures with my light skin ? I posted this to show the contrast and how tan can affect the skin tone.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Where have I denied this, the fact is that that is the color the A. Egyptians choose to represent themselves as and there's literally people still alive in Egypt with that color/feature...so why all this hoop-jumping
no one denied this I don't see why you bring this but ok
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Weird how the only other people outside of some Neheshy tribes the A. Egyptians depicted as similar to themselves were the people of Punt(East Africa)
very weak argument like you just admitted colors were standardized and followed conventions already set during the old kingdom.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Ok so the "Atheiopians" in Greek Times were literally the blackest people on Earth, ie various Nilo Saharan people.
That quote does'nt even take into account the complex relationship A. Egypt had with other African people's and cultures, sloppy Dog Whistling neo-Hamite revisionism trying to label one set of Africans as "Black Africans"
What does culture or interaction with other african people have to do with how greeks described egyptians ? Aethiopians designated all black african people (also black skinned dravidians) not simply "nilo-saharan" ancient greco-romans could clearly distinguish your regular egyptian from the much darker and negroid nubian. Herodotus himself could tell the difference in Elephantine between the egyptians and nubian merchants if I remember correctly (he talked about two different races).
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: OK This is a black African
This is not
[/QB]
wtf is this ? The woman bleached her skin it's common in west africa even here among congolese women + I suppose make up also play its role. Here a video on the subject : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCJet5Gc-rw
Average skin color in west africa :
I think you guys are confused because in america blacks are highly mixed and diverse. There are legit AAs who believe people like will smith or stephen curry exist in west africa...
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] Ok but why Speculate?
Why not just use the damn tone the people who actually saw him alive used.
You speculate too since you just admitted the color is conventional therefore why suddenly it's the accurate tone ? You also agreed we can tan therefore why would the color depicted be the color by default ? See ? You don't know and can't know therefore light or as reddish brown won't change much he would still look very different from any sub-saharan even horners or lower nubians do not have such facial traits.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: [Yes so what ? Have you at least seen my other pictures with my light skin ? I posted this to show the contrast and how tan can affect the skin tone.
So What?
You're not dark brown no where close to it.
quote:very weak argument like you just admitted colors were standardized and followed conventions already set during the old kingdom.[/img]
There was no "Standardized" depictions of Neheshy, they came in all looks, shades and features. "Its a "weak" argument because you have no good rebuttal to it, you know what it implies and you don't like it.
quote:What does culture or interaction with other african people have to do with how greeks described egyptians ? Aethiopians designated all black african people (also black skinned dravidians) not simply "nilo-saharan" ancient greco-romans could clearly distinguish your regular egyptian from the much darker and negroid nubian. Herodotus himself could tell the difference in Elephantine between the egyptians and nubian merchants if I remember correctly (he talked about two different races).
"Nubian" Merchants could've been any tribe of people below the Cateract. Further the people of Ta Seti were incorporated into A. Egypt from the Old Kingdom and contributed to the culture more than any other foreign people Levantine, Arab or European. Further Herodotus and other Greco-Latin writers describe some of the A. Egyptians has having Africoid features.
quote:[/QB]
wtf is this ? The woman bleached her skin it's common in west africa even here among congolese women +[/QB]
Do you have any Proof the woman bleached her skin?
Post it.
Also she's not Congolese but Nigerian...
More "Bleached Skin" W. Africans
You can literally contrast these people with the Dinka and Nilo Sahrans and be like
"ThEy'Re LiGhTeR ThAn BlAcK AfRiCaNs"
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: [Yes so what ? Have you at least seen my other pictures with my light skin ? I posted this to show the contrast and how tan can affect the skin tone.
So What?
You're not dark brown no where close to it.
Why do you talk to me as if I was trying to be "dark brown" or larp as something ? I'm just telling you how close I'm to egyptians in terms of skin tone when I'm tanned and AEs wouldn't have depicted me as white skinned that's for sure except if they followed the conventional libyan depiction.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: There was no "Standardized" depictions of Neheshy, they came in all looks, shades and features. "Its a "weak" argument because you have no good rebuttal to it, you know what it implies and you don't like it.
Wtf why would I not like it if today many egyptians have similar skin color as east africans ? And again you don't deny skin color followed conventions it wasn't necessarily realistic or representative of a whole population. I obviously don't believe all nubians were as dark as dinka because of the depictions.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
"Nubian" Merchants could've been any tribe of people below the Cateract. Further the people of Ta Seti were incorporated into A. Egypt from the Old Kingdom and contributed to the culture more than any other foreign people Levantine, Arab or European. Further Herodotus and other Greco-Latin writers describe some of the A. Egyptians has having Africoid features.
That does not contradict anything of what I said and today you still have nubian people in Egypt your point ? Herodotus or greco-latin writers never describe AEs with africoid features : curly hair or dark skin are certainly not exclusively SSA traits.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Do you have any Proof the woman bleached her skin?
Post it.
Also she's not Congolese but Nigerian...
More "Bleached Skin" W. Africans
You can literally contrast these people with the Dinka and Nilo Sahrans and be like
"ThEy'Re LiGhTeR ThAn BlAcK AfRiCaNs"
Is this a joke ? I literally posted crowds while you post individuals and I knew she was nigerian but bleaching is a common practice in SSA why do you think in your examples it's only women who are much lighter ?
How comes I know more about WA societies than you ? As for the children they are from Niger a placed filled with north african admixture.
Again average skin color in West africa :
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
Nigerian has a lot of people with albinism and discrimination against some Africans with albinism probably contributes to the light skin seen there,if not some random situation of Africans just coming out light.
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
I do not believe that albinism is what is creating light skin in some Igbo
I need scientific proof of that theory.
My own personal opinion on Igbo heterogeneity is such that they are not homogeneous and they have some African admixture that creates that effect in this ethnic group.
Khoisan/East African/Fulani or Kanuri admixture seems like the parsimonious explanation to me.
Namdi Kanu & Parents
Chimimanda & Parents
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
I feel it's 50% albinism and 50% random light skin phenotype.
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: I feel it's 50% albinism and 50% random light skin phenotype.
Is there a study on this "albinism' in Igbos?
Munachi Abbi Actress Musician ( No bleach needed )
Sometimes, I can't tell the difference between some of these Igbo Women and some of the lighter skin Nigerian women in the northern Nigeria
Chimimanda ( Igbo West Africa ) & Lupita N'Ongo ( Luo Tribe East Africa )
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
I'm making inferences based on the free stuff I can find online and some stuff from here.
Many of the genes and new genetic variants we identified to be associated with skin color may never have been found outside of Africa, because they are not as highly variable," Tishkoff said. "There is so much diversity in Africa that's not often appreciated. There's no such thing as an African race. We show that skin color is extremely variable on the African continent and that it is still evolving. Further, in most cases the genetic variants associated with light skin arose in Africa."
I can't find much in terms of up-to-date info about albinism in Africa, specifically Nigerian but I found this old stuff interesting.
Introduction Oculocutaneous albinism (OCA) is the most common autosomal recessive disorder in southern African Blacks. Tyrosinase-positive OCA (OCA2, or ty-pos OCA) is by far the most common and affects ∼1/3,900 individuals (Kromberg and Jenkins 1982). Together with two rarer forms of OCA, brown OCA (BOCA) and rufous OCA (ROCA), almost all cases of OCA in southern Africa have been accounted for. Tyrosinase-negative OCA (OCA1, or ty-neg OCA), caused by mutations in the tyrosinase gene (TYR), does not appear to occur in this population. OCA2 has been mapped to chromosome 15q11.2-12 in southern African Blacks (Ramsay et al. 1992). Unlike the situation in European populations, the condition shows locus homogeneity in this African population (Kedda et al. 1994). The most common mutation is a 2.7-kb deletion (Durham-Pierre et al. 1994), which accounts for 78% of OCA2 mutations in southern Africa (Stevens et al. 1995). BOCA and ROCA have been reported numerous times in Africa.They originally were reported together as so-called xanthism, which may have been due to the lack of an early formal distinction between and definition of these types (Pearson et al. 1911; Stannus 1913). BOCA and ROCA are physically distinguishable primarily on the basis of skin and hair color (Kromberg et al. 1990). BOCA initially was defined in the Nigerian population (King et al. 1980) and only has been found to occur in the Black, or Negroid, populations of Africa and America (King et al. 1985). ROCA principally has been reported in the Black populations of Africa and Papua New Guinea (Stannus 1913; Walsh 1971; Kromberg et al. 1990). In southern Africa, ROCA occurs at a prevalence of ∼1/8,500 individuals (Kromberg et al. 1990). The condition results in a red-bronze skin color, ginger-red hair, and blue or brown irides. The visual anomalies associated with albinism are often very mild in ROCA individuals, with ∼76% having nystagmus. A previous report (Kromberg et al. 1990) showed the absence of misrouting of the optic tract, a common feature of albinism, in four individuals. This led to the suggestion that ROCA, in fact, may not be a true form of albinism but, instead, is an extreme in the normal pigmentation range. One individual, tested subsequently, has been shown to have abnormal visually evoked potentials, confirming misrouting (J. G. R. Kromberg, P. Manga, and E. Zwane, unpublished data) and supporting classification of ROCA as a form of OCA. Ultrastructural analysis of the hair bulbs and skin showed both eumelanosomes and pheomelanosomes in various stages of melanization. There were a normal number of melanosomes in the skin keratinocytes, but they were packaged into clusters, instead of being dispersed singly as in the skin of normally pigmented Black individuals (Kidson et al. 1993).
In this study, the aim was to identify the gene responsible for ROCA. A linkage study was undertaken by use of polymorphic markers linked to candidate loci known to be involved in the melanin biosynthetic pathway. These loci included those for tyrosinase (TYR; 11q14-q21) (Barton et al. 1988), the human homologue of the mouse pink-eyed dilute gene (P; 15q11.2-q12) (Rinchik et al. 1993), and tyrosinase-related protein 1 (TYRP1; 9p23) (Chintamaneni et al. 1991; Murty et al. 1992) and protein 2 (TYRP2; 13q31-q32) (Bouchard et al. 1994; Sturm et al. 1994). When the candidate gene had been identified, mutation detection was performed by the screening of exons, by use of PCR, SSCP analysis, and sequencing.
I am sure there are some of that in Igbo but that does not explain all the differentiation in the Igbo people..
they don't all have these symtoms.
quote:Affected individuals were noted to have cream to light tan skin, beige to light brown hair, and blue-green to brown irides with moderate transillumination defects, nystagmus, and reduced retinal pigment. They were found to be distinct from the rufous type of albinism (Kromberg et al. 1990). Ultrastructurally, their melanocytes are normal, but their melanosomes appear not to reach maturity, with only small amounts of melanin deposition
This is a picture of Brown Albinism?
quote:Diagnosis of the condition was based on a number of characteristic features: a light-brown skin that tans on exposure to sunlight; an accumulation of pigment, to a small degree, with age; brown hair; blue or brown irides; and presence of the visual anomalies associated with albinism: nystagmus, photophobia, reduced visual acuity, and sometimes strabismus (King et al. 1980).
By the way... getting darker with age is typical of all admixed people.
Chiwetal has none of these symptoms... and his Mother and Sister
It's not like you can just turn off one of the symptoms of BOCA and just keep the lighter skin
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: [QB] [QUOTE]Why do you talk to me as if I was trying to be "dark brown" or larp as something ? I'm just telling you how close I'm to egyptians in terms of skin tone when I'm tanned and AEs wouldn't have depicted me as white skinned that's for sure except if they followed the conventional libyan depiction.
Beacue you're up here trying to pretend that you are dark, which is laughable if that pic is your proof. Maybe you get darker, but in that pic you are light beige.
quote:Wtf why would I not like it if today many egyptians have similar skin color as east africans ? And again you don't deny skin color followed conventions it wasn't necessarily realistic or representative of a whole population. I obviously don't believe all nubians were as dark as dinka because of the depictions.
Ok, but if that is the color that A. Egyptians decided to depict as the default representation of themselves why are we even discussing outliers? Why can't we just use the colors they used?
quote:That does not contradict anything of what I said and today you still have nubian people in Egypt your point ? Herodotus or greco-latin writers never describe AEs with africoid features : curly hair or dark skin are certainly not exclusively SSA traits.
Ok if you say so Nassa, we both know about ancient descriptions of A. Egyptians by Greco-Romans but sure whatever you say. (some n this thread)
BTW, The Nome of Ta-Seti was'nt just Elephantine and Aswan, it Ranged as far as Luxor and Qift. Show me one scrap of evidence of Greeks and Romans describing the people of Luxor as a "Seperate Race" or Aethiopians.
This is why I said and keep saying that your sloppy arguments don't take into account the interaction of Egypt with other African peoples.
quote:How comes I know more about WA societies than you ? As for the children they are from Niger a placed filled with north african admixture. Again average skin color in West africa :
WTF are you even talking about, I never said those people are the dominant in W. Africa I used them to contrast with the Dinka and other Nilo-Sahrans who are literally some of the blackest people on Earth and are the same "Atheiopians" that the Greeks contrasted the Egyptians with and use sloppy ass neo-hamite logic and be like "THeYRE LiGhTeR ThAn BlAcK AfRiCaNs"
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Beacue you're up here trying to pretend that you are dark, which is laughable if that pic is your proof. Maybe you get darker, but in that pic you are light beige.
light beige ? XD go check what "beige" is pls
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Ok if you say so Nassa, we both know about ancient descriptions of A. Egyptians by Greco-Romans but sure whatever you say. (some n this thread)
nothing in that link contradict what I said or what the quote I posted said + you admitted multiple times that AEs were like the modern ones so let's stop turning in circle.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: BTW, The Nome of Ta-Seti was'nt just Elephantine and Aswan, it Ranged as far as Luxor and Qift. Show me one scrap of evidence of Greeks and Romans describing the people of Luxor as a "Seperate Race" or Aethiopians.
This is why I said and keep saying that your sloppy arguments don't take into account the interaction of Egypt with other African peoples.
What does the geographic extant of a Nome has to do with phenotypes/genetics ?
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: WTF are you even talking about, I never said those people are the dominant in W. Africa I used them to contrast with the Dinka and other Nilo-Sahrans who are literally some of the blackest people on Earth and are the same "Atheiopians" that the Greeks contrasted the Egyptians with and use sloppy ass neo-hamite logic and be like "THeYRE LiGhTeR ThAn BlAcK AfRiCaNs"
the level of dishonesty...smh Why do you pretend greco-romans only knew about "Dinka" ? Clearly you haven't read much on ancient blacks if you believe this. I can't believe you're this desesperate. So aethiopians was only for dinka therefore the fact they distinguished aethiopians from egyptians doesn't mean much since blacks can have different shades ? Seriously ?
Anyway it starts to be tiresome so answer this question : let's imagine AEs were somewhat black and had close relations with nubians and other sub-saharan populations how does that concern you or your people ? That's literally like me being proud of greeks or persian achievements while I clearly have nothing to do with them. Are you at least aware that a black skinned ethiopian or somali is genetically closer to me than you ?
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: light beige ? XD go check what "beige" is pls
At this point I think we just disagree with that is considered "Dark" for a white person such as yourself, it might be down to our cultures/enviroment, where Im in contact with many dark "whites" like Hispanics..while you probably deal more with Europeans...idk.
quote:nothing in that link contradict what I said or what the quote I posted said + you admitted multiple times that AEs were like the modern ones so let's stop turning in circle.
Ok, but like I said your posting quotes as if one type of A. Egyptian was described when a variety exists so I don't see the point of use Greek/Roman descriptions unless you're going to use all.
quote:What does the geographic extant of a Nome has to do with phenotypes/genetics ?
Are you seriously asking what this has to do with a nome that was historically populated and at one time seperately controlled by your Token Abid Magical Barrier True Black Negro "Nubians" after posting a source claiming these same people were seen as True Blacks by Greeks/Romans vs. Egyptians..
....
???
Then whats the point of your source then?
quote:the level of dishonesty...smh Why do you pretend greco-romans only knew about "Dinka" ? Clearly you haven't read much on ancient blacks if you believe this. I can't believe you're this desesperate. So aethiopians was only for dinka therefore the fact they distinguished aethiopians from egyptians doesn't mean much since blacks can have different shades ? Seriously ?
Seriously interacting with you its hard for me to refrain from using profanity, like you can't be this dumb...
Bruh I never said Dinka only I said Dinka AND NILO-SAHARANS aka Nilotic people
Do you have one scrap of evidence of the Greeks/Romans contrasting the Egyptians with other Aethiopians other than the ones that lived in the f-king Nile Valley aka Nilites like the Dinka...
if so post it(It would be interesting if it exists)
If not
WHAT
IS
THE
POINT
These people are literally the blackest people on earth so of course people are going to contrast them with Red-Brown Egyptians
quote:Anyway it starts to be tiresome so answer this question : let's imagine AEs were somewhat black and had close relations with nubians and other sub-saharan populations how does that concern you or your people ? That's literally like me being proud of greeks or persian achievements while I clearly have nothing to do with them. Are you at least aware that a black skinned ethiopian or somali is genetically closer to me than you ?
What's the point of this moronic and honestly condesending question. Don't presume to talk to me like the abid your people are known to keep as slaves.
I already answered this question numerous times, if you want the answer look it up for yourself in past threads.
I can research and take inspiration from whomever I want to, who are you to dictate what I as a free person can and can not do. I research more than just Egypt.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Ok, but like I said your posting quotes as if one type of A. Egyptian was described when a variety exists so I don't see the point of use Greek/Roman descriptions unless you're going to use all.
There is still variety today does that mean I wouldn't be able to differentiate the average egyptian from the average sudanese ?
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Are you seriously asking what this has to do with a nome that was historically populated and at one time seperately controlled by your Token Abid Magical Barrier True Black Negro "Nubians" after posting a source claiming these same people were seen as True Blacks by Greeks/Romans vs. Egyptians..
....
???
Then whats the point of your source then?
As far as I know, Greco-romans put the barrier between egyptians and aethiopians/nubians at Elephantine not further north. What evidence do you have that this area was ruled by "true negro" ? Also would that mean the whole population of the area was black ? Of course not. We do have anthropological datas on this area don't forget it.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Seriously interacting with you its hard for me to refrain from using profanity, like you can't be this dumb...
Bruh I never said Dinka only I said Dinka AND NILO-SAHARANS aka Nilotic people
Do you have one scrap of evidence of the Greeks/Romans contrasting the Egyptians with other Aethiopians other than the ones that lived in the f-king Nile Valley aka Nilites like the Dinka...
if so post it(It would be interesting if it exists)
If not
WHAT
IS
THE
POINT
These people are literally the blackest people on earth so of course people are going to contrast them with Red-Brown Egyptians
So all nilo-saharans are as dark as dinka now ? Why do you assume that the nubians in elephantine were as dark as dinka ? especially that the surrounding nubians clearly weren't as dark as dinka still herodotus could tell the difference and describe two races ...Why ?
So no it wasn't like comparing dinkas to some red skinned horn like population.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: What's the point of this moronic and honestly condesending question. Don't presume to talk to me like the abid your people are known to keep as slaves.
I already answered this question numerous times, if you want the answer look it up for yourself in past threads.
I can research and take inspiration from whomever I want to, who are you to dictate what I as a free person can and can not do. I research more than just Egypt.
hahahaha I really don't know what you and tukuler went through but why you guys always accuse me of acting like a slave holder wtff XD Calm yourself I simply asked you a simple question yes you can take inspiration in anything you want but let's be honest it's more than simply inspiration or else you wouldn't fight that much over the blackness of upper egyptians, their phenotypes and ties with "Ta-seti". You clearly want to identify with these people and used their history as an example of black achievement something which you can compare to what your white and hispanic neighbours have.
Since I was a child I've always liked roman history yet I do not obsess over their phenotypes or ancestry nor do I try to exaggerate the ties my ancestors had with them.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
This is one of the things that annoy me about this forum. How did we get from the recontruction of Shep-en-Isis to modern Nigerians??
Anyway, all the relevant points on facial reconstructions I made on the previous page.
Forensic reconstruction is more of an art than science because the skull gives limited information whereas soft tissue details like lips, nose tip, and ears are not included and can only be inferred perhaps from the mummified tissue if any exists. Definitely skin color is not preserved.
This why unless forensic artists are double-blinded they are prone to bias.
A perfect example:
the 2006 reconstruction of a 2nd Intermediate period mummy named Senu by a Japanese team
Another example is the 2005 National Geographic reconstruction of King Tut by a French Team.
Email to Susan Anton on Tutankhamun Dr. Susan Anton's response: Thanks for your email. I actually didn't choose the term "North African Caucasoid" that is the term used by another team (there were three that worked on separate reconstructions). The French team was responsible for the reconstruction that was on the cover of National Geographic Magazine and they also used that term.
Our team, myself and Michael Anderson of Yale, were the ones that did the plaster reconstruction without knowledge of whose skull we were working on. I did the biological profile (assessment of age at death, sex, and ancestry), Michael made the actual reconstruction. Based on the physical characters of the skull, I concluded that this was the skull of a male older than 15 but less than 21, and likely in the 18-20 year range and of African ancestry, possibly north African. The possibly North African came mostly from the shape of the face including the narrow nose opening, that is not entirely consistent with an 'African' designation. A narrow nose is more typical of more northerly located populations because nose breadth is thought to be at least in part related to the climate in which ancestral populations lived. A narrow and tall nose is seen most frequently in Europeans. Tut's head was a bit of a conundrum, but, as you note, there is a huge range of variation in modern humans from any area, so for me the skull overall, including aspects of the face, spoke fairly strongly of his African origins - the nose was a bit unusual. Because their is latitudinal variation in several aspects of the skull (including nose size/shape), the narrowness of the nose suggested that he might be from a northerly group. This is also, I presume, what the French focused on. I have not been in direct contact with the French group, but my understanding is that by their definition of 'Caucasoid' they include Peoples from North Africa, peoples from Western Asia (and the Caucasus, from where the term derives), and European peoples. So I don't think that they were referring to a specific set of those peoples. I personally don't find that term all that useful and so I don't use it. That it was attributed to me by the media is an incorrect attribution on their part. I also never said he had a European nose, although I am sure I did say that the narrow nose was what led me to suggest North Africa as a possibility and that a narrow nose is more typically seen in Europe. Not a great sound bit that, so I guess it gets shortened to European nose.
So when it comes to forensic reconstructions an artist can easily make a subject look something entirely different from what the subject looked in life. Because North Africans like Egyptians possessed narrow facial morphology and features it's easy to white wash them and make them look 'European' or European-like.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Dr. Zahi Hawass, Secretary General of Egypt’s Supreme Council of Antiquities, announced today the results of three independent attempts to reconstruct the face of Egypt’s most famous king, Tutankhamun.
All three teams started with the CT data provided by the SCA. The American and French teams were given a plastic model of the skull produced in Paris; the Egyptian team made their own model directly from the data. Based on this skull, the American and French teams both concluded that the subject was Caucasoid (the type of human typically found, for example, in North Africa, Europe, and the Middle East). The American team, working blind, correctly identified the subject as North African.
seems that they determine skin color by nose narrowness
her nose looks narrower but nostril shape a little wider
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
come on, you are calling any random person on the internet who uses Photoshop a reconstruction expert They use that little white faced canopic jar instead of this masterpiece because the lips are too big for their likening >
then the so called experts come in and determine he's Caucasian based on nose narrowness what bullshit
quote:
PRESS RELEASE, May 10, 2005
Tutankhamun Facial Reconstruction
Dr. Zahi Hawass, Secretary General of Egypt’s Supreme Council of Antiquities, announced today the results of three independent attempts to reconstruct the face of Egypt’s most famous king, Tutankhamun.
All three teams started with the CT data provided by the SCA. The American and French teams were given a plastic model of the skull produced in Paris; the Egyptian team made their own model directly from the data. Based on this skull, the American and French teams both concluded that the subject was Caucasoid (the type of human typically found, for example, in North Africa, Europe, and the Middle East). The American team, working blind, correctly identified the subject as North African.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: come on, you are calling any random person on the internet who uses Photoshop a reconstruction expert They use that little white faced canopic jar instead of this masterpiece because the lips are too big for their likening
I never said that he who made the picture was an expert, and the text belonging to the picture is from the link I posted. I suppose you see that it is a quote. Just thought the pic looked nice.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: More Tut:
quote: Face reconstruction of Tutankhamun in his youth based on his Canopic Jar at the (Egyptian Museum in Cairo)
That alabaster canopic jar and other portraits that look very effeminate may not be Tut at all but actually a queen perhaps Nefertiti because evidence shows that Tut's burial was rushed and put into a tomb that was originally meant for someone else probably a female since some of the portraits look like that of a woman.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:There is still variety today does that mean I wouldn't be able to differentiate the average egyptian from the average sudanese ?
quote:As far as I know, Greco-romans put the barrier between egyptians and aethiopians/nubians at Elephantine not further north. What evidence do you have that this area was ruled by "true negro" ? Also would that mean the whole population of the area was black ? Of course not. We do have anthropological datas on this area don't forget it.
I never said the whole population was "Black" I said there were people there who were incorporated into the Egyptian state that had historical ties to other Neheshy people, by the time of the Greeks they would have been seen as proper Egyptians not Ethiopians.
quote:So all nilo-saharans are as dark as dinka now ? Why do you assume that the nubians in elephantine were as dark as dinka ? especially that the surrounding nubians clearly weren't as dark as dinka still herodotus could tell the difference and describe two races ...Why ?
Bruh WTf are you talking about, have you seen how the Nubians like the Kushites and Merowites depicted themselves, I literally just posted an image of a 25th Dynasty Pharoah who has the same features as a modern South Sudanese..These were the Nilo-Saharan people the Greeks/Romans contrasted the A. Egyptians with. Like why are you being difficult about this, these people are jet-f-ing black....like how is this difficult to comprehend that the Greeks would differenciate between a Red Brown Egyptian and a Dark Black Sudanese..??
How are you not understanding this..
quote:So no it wasn't like comparing dinkas to some red skinned horn like population.
So were there any other Ethiopians other than the people who lived in the f-ing Nile Valley that they contrasted the Egyptians with...
Do you have proof, or is this another Nassa gonna keep spining in circles and making statements because Im Nassabean type of arguments..
quote:hahahaha I really don't know what you and tukuler went through but why you guys always accuse me of acting like a slave holder wtff XD Calm yourself I simply asked you a simple question yes you can take inspiration in anything you want but let's be honest it's more than simply inspiration or else you wouldn't fight that much over the blackness of upper egyptians, their phenotypes and ties with "Ta-seti". You clearly want to identify with these people and used their history as an example of black achievement something which you can compare to what your white and hispanic neighbours have.
Since I was a child I've always liked roman history yet I do not obsess over their phenotypes or ancestry nor do I try to exaggerate the ties my ancestors had with them.
So where have I claimed they are my ancestors, post evidence. You keep saying this but never man up an actually post evidence.
Are you gonna man up this time and post it, or just keep using that excuse to justify your condesending Im gonna tell you what to think Abid attitude towards me?
No one is "fighting" anything, Im simply relaying basic ass facts, you're the one acting like a retard simply because you have a chip on your shoulder.
lol at the idea of me trying to impress Hispanic/White people in my area...You have no idea wtf I identify with or research, just your prejudice and ignorance.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: So were there any other Ethiopians other than the people who lived in the f-ing Nile Valley that they contrasted the Egyptians with...
Do you have proof, or is this another Nassa gonna keep spining in circles and making statements because Im Nassabean type of arguments..
seems like you forgot lower nubians...
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: So where have I claimed they are my ancestors, post evidence. You keep saying this but never man up an actually post evidence.
Are you gonna man up this time and post it, or just keep using that excuse to justify your condesending Im gonna tell you what to think Abid attitude towards me?
No one is "fighting" anything, Im simply relaying basic ass facts, you're the one acting like a retard simply because you have a chip on your shoulder.
lol at the idea of me trying to impress Hispanic/White people in my area...You have no idea wtf I identify with or research, just your prejudice and ignorance.
I never said you claim them as your ancestors but you have a weird approach like most users on this site where as long as the people are "black" then it's ok I've pointed many times how ridiculous this kind of reasoning is. That's why you have members on this site who see indians or melanesians as "black" and get agressive when I point out these people have nothing to do with west africans. You're clearly in some kind of "war of achievements" with "whites" "euronuts".
Anyway I will not fall again into this toxic mess, you and I are brothers and we'll start loving each other properly. Take example on your african brothers from Historum : sane debate, objective datas, no afrocentrist bs, respectful towards north africans, etc
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: seems like you forgot lower nubians...
Its obvious that many of the Lower Nubians would have looked similar to Upper Egyptians, as attested to by Art done by the A.Egyptians themselves, think of the scence of Ramses in his war chariot against the Nubians in Wa-Wat where he(his artists) paints many of them as having his own skin color and features. We can't over look that because its war propaganda, A. Egyptians would not just paint willy-nilly enemies of the state as similar to themselves if it were not based in some part on objective reality.
Also don't forget A. Egyptians and Lower Nubians and even Upper Nubians were intermarrying during the Colonial period of Egyptian control of Kush. Given the historical context I just don't think Greek/Latin descriptions are accurate in seeing the Lower Nubians below Aswan as strictly Aethiopian and the Upper Egyptians above that as just "Dark" Egyptians.
quote:I never said you claim them as your ancestors but you have a weird approach like most users on this site where as long as the people are "black" then it's ok I've pointed many times how ridiculous this kind of reasoning is. That's why you have members on this site who see indians or melanesians as "black" and get agressive when I point out these people have nothing to do with west africans. You're clearly in some kind of "war of achievements" with "whites" "euronuts".
Im actually not in any war with any white people, my problem is that people don't recognize the obvious facts. For example people are literally trying to paint A. Egypt as being entirely Levantine, dismissing the African contribution.
quote:Anyway I will not fall again into this toxic mess, you and I are brothers and we'll start loving each other properly. Take example on your african brothers from Historum : sane debate, objective datas, no afrocentrist bs, respectful towards north africans, etc
I really do try not to get into toxic arguments with you but its hard sometimes with you lol
But yeah I do like what some of the folks on Historum are doing. Many of the best threads were pioneered by former ES members like Son of Ra or inspired by us.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Its obvious that many of the Lower Nubians would have looked similar to Upper Egyptians, as attested to by Art done by the A.Egyptians themselves, think of the scence of Ramses in his war chariot against the Nubians in Wa-Wat where he(his artists) paints many of them as having his own skin color and features. We can't over look that because its war propaganda, A. Egyptians would not just paint willy-nilly enemies of the state as similar to themselves if it were not based in some part on objective reality.
Also don't forget A. Egyptians and Lower Nubians and even Upper Nubians were intermarrying during the Colonial period of Egyptian control of Kush. Given the historical context I just don't think Greek/Latin descriptions are accurate in seeing the Lower Nubians below Aswan as strictly Aethiopian and the Upper Egyptians above that as just "Dark" Egyptians.
Well if you pay attention on this scene both the pitch black nubians and the others have the same facial features while ramses is depicted differently (more caucasoid) so like I said it's not simply a question of skin color but also facial features. The thing is Herodotus could clearly distinguish both and you can only speculate as to who those nubians he saw were.
I don't think there was a strict racial border even today a upper egyptian from that part of egypt would look closer to his nubian neighbour than to a lower egyptian but as a whole I think greeks/latins could clearly see that egyptians were not black nor the same people as nubians/aethiopians.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Im actually not in any war with any white people, my problem is that people don't recognize the obvious facts. For example people are literally trying to paint A. Egypt as being entirely Levantine, dismissing the African contribution.
I really do try not to get into toxic arguments with you but its hard sometimes with you lol
But yeah I do like what some of the folks on Historum are doing. Many of the best threads were pioneered by former ES members like Son of Ra or inspired by us.
You exaggerate no one really believe egypt was some kind of levantine civilization isolated from it's african neighbours but it wasn't some kind of "black" civilization either.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: Well if you pay attention on this scene both the pitch black nubians and the others have the same facial features while ramses is depicted differently (more caucasoid) so like I said it's not simply a question of skin color but also facial features. The thing is Herodotus could clearly distinguish both and you can only speculate as to who those nubians he saw were.
Not all the ebony dark peoples depicted in the murals were 'Nubian'. Some especially the "negroid" looking ones were in fact southern Sudanese who were under Nubian hegemony. 'Nubia' itself is a generic category for peoples to the immediate south of Egypt who were varied.
quote:I don't think there was a strict racial border even today a upper egyptian from that part of egypt would look closer to his nubian neighbour than to a lower egyptian but as a whole I think greeks/latins could clearly see that egyptians were not black nor the same people as nubians/aethiopians.
Wrong as usual. Of course Greco-Romans noticed differences just as they recognized differences between themselves and other Europeans that doesn't mean they didn't view Egyptians as 'black' hence Greek melanchroi and Latin maure which they clearly did anymore than they viewed themselves as white hence Manilius division of dark/black races vs. light/white races. This was explained to you before!
quote:You exaggerate no one really believe egypt was some kind of levantine civilization isolated from it's African neighbours but it wasn't some kind of "black" civilization either.
Then why did scholars note more cultural similarities with Black Africa than with the Near East as far back as one of the Fathers of Egyptology Sir. E.A. Wallis Budge? Why do today's Egyptologists like Michael Rice, Ian Shaw, and Donald Redford point note the same similarities??
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Not all the ebony dark peoples depicted in the murals were 'Nubian'. Some especially the "negroid" looking ones were in fact southern Sudanese who were under Nubian hegemony. 'Nubia' itself is a generic category for peoples to the immediate south of Egypt who were varied.
We're talking about this scene :
As you can see despite some nubians being depicted with a similar skin color as ramses II they still have features similar to the pitch black ones and not the egyptians.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Wrong as usual. Of course Greco-Romans noticed differences just as they recognized differences between themselves and other Europeans that doesn't mean they didn't view Egyptians as 'black' hence Greek melanchroi and Latin maure which they clearly did anymore than they viewed themselves as white hence Manilius division of dark/black races vs. light/white races. This was explained to you before!
Sorry that's not in line with the datas :
quote:The evidence clearly shows that those Greco-Roman authors who refer to skin color and other physical traits distinguish sharply between Ethiopians (Nubians) and Egyptians, and rarely do they refer to the Egyptians, even though they were described as darker than themselves. No Greek doubted that the Egyptians were darker than the Greeks, but not as dark as black Africans
Shavit, Y. (2001). History in Black: African-Americans in Search of an Ancient Past. London: Frank Cass. p. 154.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Then why did scholars note more cultural similarities with Black Africa than with the Near East as far back as one of the Fathers of Egyptology Sir. E.A. Wallis Budge? Why do today's Egyptologists like Michael Rice, Ian Shaw, and Donald Redford point note the same similarities??
you confuse "cultural similarities" with the fact that Nubia actually derived most of its culture from Egypt while levantine states did manage to stay somewhat distinct even though they also faced strong egyptian influences. Nubians spoke a nilo-saharan language and were officially seen as ennemies by Egyptians throughout all their history.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: We're talking about this scene :
As you can see despite some nubians being depicted with a similar skin color as ramses II they still have features similar to the pitch black ones and not the egyptians.
So are the features of these kings more similar to those Nubians or to Europeans?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Getting back to the topic...
“Based on the anatomical age of Shep-en-Isis and the decoration of the inner sarcophagus, she must have been born around 650 BC and died between 620 and 610 BC,” said Egyptologist Michael Habicht from the University of Zurich.
The inscriptions on her coffin testified that she belonged to a wealthy upper-class family and came from the family of the high priests of Amun (the highest title among the priests of the ancient Egyptian god Amun) in Thebes. Judging by her family background, she probably received an education. However, many years of research did not allow to establish the identity and profession of her husband, as well as whether she had children.
The above woman does NOT look like a modern Theban let alone an ancient one.
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
Ancient Egyptian race controversy
quote: Frank J. Yurco wrote in 1990: "When you talk about Egypt, it's just not right to talk about black or white .... To take the terminology here in the United States and graft it onto Africa is anthropologically inaccurate". Yurco added that "We are applying a racial divisiveness to Egypt that they would never have accepted, They would have considered this argument absurd, and that is something we could really learn from." Yurco wrote in 1996 that "the peoples of Egypt, the Sudan, and much of North-East Africa are generally regarded as a Nilotic continuity, with widely ranging physical features (complexions light to dark, various hair and craniofacial types)".
In a 1989 article, he elaborated: "In short, ancient Egypt, like modern Egypt, consisted of a very heterogeneous population". Mary Lefkowitz in 1997 whilst criticising elements of Afrocentrism had acknowledged that the origins of the ancient Egyptians were more clear due to the "recent evidence on skeletons and DNA [which] suggests that the people who settled in the Nile valley, like all of humankind, came from somewhere south of the Sahara; they were not (as some nineteenth-century scholars had supposed) invaders from the North".
Nancy Lovell wrote in 1999 that studies of skeletal remains indicate that the physical characteristics of ancient southern Egyptians and Nubians were "within the range of variation" for both ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa, and that the distribution of population characteristics "seems to follow a clinal pattern from south to north", which may be explained by natural selection as well as gene flow between neighboring populations.
She also wrote that the archaeological and inscriptional evidence for contact between Egypt and Syro-Palestine "suggests that gene flow between these areas was very likely," and that the early Nile Valley populations were "part of an African lineage, but exhibiting local variation".
Stuart Tyson Smith wrote in 2001: "Any characterization of race of the ancient Egyptians depends on modern cultural definitions, not on scientific study. Thus, by modern American standards it is reasonable to characterize the Egyptians as 'black', while acknowledging the scientific evidence for the physical diversity of Africans." and "Ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilisation".
Smith also wrote in 2004: "Egyptian art depicts Nubians with stereotypical dark skin, facial features, hairstyles, and dress, all very different from Egyptians and the other two ethnic groups, Asiatics and Libyans".
Smith also noted in 2004 that: "no single material correlate, no matter how abundantly represented, unambiguously reflects ethnic group affilitation".
Sonia Zakrzewski (2003) studied skeletal samples from the Badarian period to the Middle Kingdom in Upper Egypt. The raw data suggested that the Ancient Egyptians in general had "tropical body plans" but that their proportions were actually "super-negroid", i.e. the limb indices are relatively longer than in many “African” populations. She proposed that the apparent development of an increasingly African body plan over time may also be due to Nubian mercenaries being included in the sample, especially in the Middle Kingdom sample.
Zakrzewski concluded that the "results must remain provisional due to the relatively small sample sizes and the lack of skeletal material that cross-cuts all social and economic groups within each time period."
Barry J. Kemp wrote in 2007 that the black/white argument, though politically understandable, is an oversimplification that hinders an appropriate evaluation of the scientific data on the ancient Egyptians since it does not take into consideration the difficulty in ascertaining complexion from skeletal remains.
It also ignores the fact that Africa is inhabited by many other populations besides Bantu-related ("Negroid") groups. He wrote that in reconstructions of life in ancient Egypt, modern Egyptians would therefore be the most logical and closest approximation to the ancient Egyptians.
S. O. Y. Keita wrote in 2008 that "There is no scientific reason to believe that the primary ancestors of the Egyptian population emerged and evolved outside of northeast Africa.... The basic overall genetic profile of the modern population is consistent with the diversity of ancient populations that would have been indigenous to northeastern Africa and subject to the range of evolutionary influences over time, although researchers vary in the details of their explanations of those influences."
Marc Van De Mieroop wrote in 2021: "Some scholars have tried to determine what Egyptians could have looked like by comparing their skeletal remains with those of recent populations, but the samples are so limited and the interpretations so fraught with uncertainties that this is an unreliable approach".
He concluded that ancient Egypt's "location at the edge of northeast Africa and its geography as a corridor between that continent and Asia opened it up to influences from all directions, in terms of both culture and of demography."
Some modern views on bias in Egyptology
quote: Sally-Ann Ashton wrote in 2011: "The fact that Ancient Egypt is forced to justify its African identity through its geographical location has not gone unnoticed....critics of the mainstream Eurocentric view of Ancient Egypt claim that not only is the connection between Egypt and Africa neglected, it is consciously denied". She later outlines "This is partly the legacy of the "rediscovery" of Egypt by Europe at the end of the 18th century.
In addition to this historical context, Egyptology as a discipline is dominated by scholars who are White Europeans or North Americans".
Keith Crawford in 2021 presented a critique of the "Black Pharaohs" narrative accepted among mainstream scholars in which the Twenty-fifth Dynasty rulers were the only dynasty of Black African origin and academic representation of Egyptian-Kushite interactions.
He concludes "The separation of Egypt from Africa, beginning nearly two centuries ago, resulted from Egyptologists, historians, and anthropologists interpreting archaeological finds and physical remains through a prism blurred by the racism of the time. These views have persisted to this day, despite overwhelming evidence that refutes them".
Genetic studies have been criticised by several scholars for a range of methodological problems and providing misleading, interpretations on racial classifications.
Specifically, Keita and Kittles argue that DNA studies applied to the Nile Valley region have downplayed or excluded data on comparable, African populations in order to maintain certain racial models along with pre-selected data categories. Boyce and Keita in a later study, argue that certain studies have adopted a selective approach in sampling, such as using samples drawn mostly from northern (Lower) Egypt, which has historically had the presence of more foreigners from the Mediterranean and the Near East, and using those samples as representing the rest of Egypt.
Thus, excluding the 'darker' south or Upper Egypt which presents a false impression of Egyptian variability.
The authors also note that chromosonial patterns have featured inconsistent labelling such as Haplotype V as seen the with use of misleading terms like "Arabic" to describe it, implying this haplotype is of 'Middle Eastern' origins. However, when the hapotype V variant is looked at in context, it does have a very high prevalence in African countries above the Sahara and in Ethiopia.
Ancient Egyptian art
quote: In their own art, "Egyptians are often represented in a color that is officially called dark red", according to Diop.
Arguing against other theories, Diop quotes Champollion-Figeac, who states, "one distinguishes on Egyptian monuments several species of blacks, differing...with respect to complexion, which makes Negroes black or copper-colored."
Regarding an expedition by King Sesostris, Cherubini states the following concerning captured southern Africans, "except for the panther skin about their loins, are distinguished by their color, some entirely black, others dark brown.
University of Chicago scholars assert that Nubians are generally depicted with black paint, but the skin pigment used in Egyptian paintings to refer to Nubians can range "from dark red to brown to black".
This can be observed in paintings from the tomb of the Egyptian Huy, as well as Ramses II's temple at Beit el-Wali. Also, Snowden indicates that Romans had accurate knowledge of "negroes of a red, copper-colored complexion ... among African tribes".
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
Prehistoric Egypt/Upper Egypt
Nabta Playa
quote: Nabta Playa was once a large internally drained basin in the Nubian Desert, located approximately 800 kilometers south of modern-day Cairo or about 100 kilometers west of Abu Simbel in southern Egypt,22.51° north, 30.73° east.
Today the region is characterized by numerous archaeological sites.The Nabta Playa archaeological site, one of the earliest of the Egyptian Neolithic Period, is dated to circa 7500 BC. Also, excavations from Nabta Playa, located about 100 km west of Abu Simbel for example, suggest that the Neolithic inhabitants of the region were migrants from Sub-Saharan Africa.
Tasian culture
quote: The Tasian culture was the next in Upper Egypt. This culture group is named for the burials found at Der Tasa, on the east bank of the Nile between Asyut and Akhmim. The Tasian culture group is notable for producing the earliest blacktop-ware, a type of red and brown pottery that is colored black on the top portion and interior. This pottery is vital to the dating of Predynastic Egypt. Because all dates for the Predynastic period are tenuous at best, WMF Petrie developed a system called sequence dating by which the relative date, if not the absolute date, of any given Predynastic site can be ascertained by examining its pottery.
As the Predynastic period progressed, the handles on pottery evolved from functional to ornamental. The degree to which any given archaeological site has functional or ornamental pottery can also be used to determine the relative date of the site. Since there is little difference between Tasian ceramics and Badarian pottery, the Tasian Culture overlaps the Badarian range significantly. From the Tasian period onward, it appears that Upper Egypt was influenced strongly by the culture of Lower Egypt.
Archaeological evidence has suggested that the Tasian and Badarian Nile Valley sites were a peripheral network of earlier African cultures that featured the movement of Badarian, Saharan, Nubian and Nilotic populations.
Badarian culture
quote: The Badarian culture, from about 4400 to 4000 BC, is named for the Badari site near Der Tasa. It followed the Tasian culture, but was so similar that many consider them one continuous period. The Badarian Culture continued to produce the kind of pottery called blacktop-ware (albeit much improved in quality) and was assigned Sequence Dating numbers 21–29. The primary difference that prevents scholars from merging the two periods is that Badarian sites use copper in addition to stone and are thus chalcolithic settlements, while the Neolithic Tasian sites are still considered Stone Age.
Badarian flint tools continued to develop into sharper and more shapely blades, and the first faience was developed. Distinctly Badarian sites have been located from Nekhen to a little north of Abydos. It appears that the Fayum A culture and the Badarian and Tasian Periods overlapped significantly; however, the Fayum A culture was considerably less agricultural and was still Neolithic in nature.
Cranial analysis and skeletal studies have shown strong biological affinities between Badarians and other African populations.
Dental trait analysis of Badarian fossils found that they were closely related to other Afroasiatic-speaking populations inhabiting Northeast Africa and the Maghreb. Among the ancient populations, the Badarians were nearest to other ancient Egyptians (Naqada, Hierakonpolis, Abydos and Kharga in Upper Egypt; Hawara in Lower Egypt), and C-Group and Pharaonic era skeletons excavated in Lower Nubia, followed by the A-Group culture bearers of Lower Nubia, the Kerma and Kush populations in Upper Nubia, the Meroitic, X-Group and Christian period inhabitants of Lower Nubia, and the Kellis population in the Dakhla Oasis.: 219–20 Among the recent groups, the Badari markers were morphologically closest to the Shawia and Kabyle Berber populations of Algeria as well as Bedouin groups in Morocco, Libya and Tunisia, followed by other Afroasiatic-speaking populations in the Horn of Africa.: 222–4 The Late Roman era Badarian skeletons from Kellis were also phenotypically distinct from those belonging to other populations in Sub-Saharan Africa.: 231–2
Naqada culture
quote: The Naqada culture is an archaeological culture of Chalcolithic Predynastic Egypt (c. 4000–3000 BC), named for the town of Naqada, Qena Governorate. It is divided in three sub-periods: Naqada I, II and III. A number of craniometric studies have found Naqada skeletal remains to have clear, African affinities.
In 1996, Lovell and Prowse reported the presence of individuals buried at Naqada in what they interpreted to be elite, high status tombs, showing them to be an endogamous ruling or elite segment who were significantly different from individuals buried in two other, apparently nonelite cemeteries, and more closely related morphologically to populations in Northern Nubia than those in Southern Egypt.
Posted by sudanese (Member # 15779) on :
quote: For in the correspondingly situated places on our side of the equator, that is those on the Summer Tropic [i.e. at Egypt's latitude], people do not yet have the color of the Aithiopians, and there are no rhinoceros and elephants; but in places not much to the south of these, moderately black people are to be found, such as those who live in the "Thirty Schoinoi" [region in lower Nubia] outside of Soene. Of the same type, too, are the people of Garame, whom Marinos also says (and indeed, for this very reason) live neither right on the Summer Tropic nor to the north, but entirely to the south of it. But in places around Meroe people are already quite black in color, and are at last pure Aithiopians, and the habitat of the elephants and more wonderful animals is there." --Ptolemy
quote: Now the inhabitants of the marches are not yet fully black but are half-breeds in matter of color, for they are partly not so black as the Ethiopians, yet partly more so than the Egyptians. -- Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 6.1-5.
quote: On the left of the course of the Nile live Nubae in Libya, a populous nation. They begin from Meroe, and extend as far as the bends (of the river). They are not subject to the Ethiopians, but live independently, being distributed into several sovereignties.(Strabo, Geography 17.1.2.)
In the above quote it seems that the Aethiopians were a specific population that had their capital at Meroe and that the Lower 'Nubians' were described as "partly moreso" blacker than the Egyptians.
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
Nubia
History
Prehistory (6000–3500 BC)
quote: Joseph Vogel wrote that "The period when sub-Saharan Africa was most influential in Egypt was a time when neither Egypt, as we understand it culturally, nor the Sahara, as we understand it geographically, existed. Populations and cultures now found south of the desert roamed far to the north. The culture of Upper Egypt, which became dynastic Egyptian civilization, could fairly be called a Sudanese transplant."
British Africanist Basil Davidson outlined that "The ancient Egyptians belonged, that is, not to any specific Egyptian region or Near Eastern heritage but to that wide community of peoples who lived between the Red Sea and the Atlantic Ocean, shared a common "Saharan-Sudanese culture", and drew their reinforcements from the same great source, even though, as time went by, they also absorbed a number of wanderers from the Near East".
Biological anthropologists, Shomarka Keita and A.J. Boyce, have stated that the "Studies of crania from southern predynastic Egypt, from the formative period (4000-3100 B.C.), show them usually to be more similar to the crania of ancient Nubians, Kushites, Saharans, or modern groups from the Horn of Africa than to those of dynastic northern Egyptians or ancient or modern southern Europeans."
Archaeological evidence has attested that population settlements occurred in Nubia as early as the Late Pleistocene era and from the 5th millennium BC onwards, whereas there is "no or scanty evidence" of human presence in the Egyptian Nile Valley during these periods, which may be due to problems in site preservation. Several scholars have argued that the African origins of the Egyptian civilisation derived from pastoral communities which emerged in both the Egyptian and Sudanese regions of the Nile Valley in the fifth millennium BCE.
Deitrich Wildung (2018) examined Eastern Saharan pottery styles and Sudanese stone sculptures and suggested these artefacts were transmitted across the Nile Valley and influenced the pre-dynastic Egyptian culture in the Neolithic period.
21st-century archaeology
quote: In 2003, archaeologist Charles Bonnet led a team of Swiss archaeologists to excavate near Kerma and discovered a cache of monumental black granite statues of the Pharaohs of the 25th Dynasty of Egypt, now displayed at the Kerma Museum. Among the sculptures are ones belonging to the dynasty's last two pharaohs, Taharqa and Tanoutamon, whose statues are described as "masterpieces that rank among the greatest in art history". Craniometric analysis of Kerma fossils that compared them to various other early populations inhabiting the Nile Valley and Maghreb found that they were morphologically close to Predynastic Egyptians from Naqada (4000–3200 BC). Dental trait analysis of Kerma fossils found affinities with various populations inhabiting the Nile Valley, Horn of Africa, and Northeast Africa, especially to other ancient populations from the central and northern Sudan. Among the sampled populations, the Kerma people were overall nearest to the Kush populations in Upper Nubia, the A-Group culture bearers of Lower Nubia, and Ethiopians.
Ancient DNA
quote: Sirak et al. 2021 obtained and analyzed the whole genomes of 66 individuals from the site of Kulubnarti situated in northern Nubia between the 2nd and 3rd cataract, near the modern Egyptian border, and dated to the Christian Period between 650 and 1000 CE. The samples were obtained from two cemeteries. The samples' genetic profile was found to be a mixture between West Eurasian and Sub Saharan Dinka-related ancestries, with ~60% West Eurasian related ancestry that likely came from ancient Egyptians but ultimately resembles that found in Bronze or Iron age Levantines and ~40% Dinka-related ancestry.
The two cemeteries showed minimal differences in their West Eurasian/Dinka ancestry proportions. These findings in addition to multiple cross cemetery relatives that the analyses have revealed indicate that people of both the R and S cemeteries were part of the same population despite the archaeological and anthropological differences between the two burials showing social stratification.
Modern Nubians, despite their superficial resemblance to the Kulubnarti Nubians on the PCA, were not found to be descended from Kulubnarti Nubians without additional later admixtures. Modern Nubians were found to have an increase in Sub-Saharan ancestry along with a change in their west Eurasian ancestry from that found in the ancient samples.
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
Kerma culture
21st century archaeology
quote: In 2003, archaeologist Charles Bonnet heading a team of Swiss archaeologists excavating near Kerma discovered a cache of monumental black granite statues of the Pharaohs of the Twenty-fifth Dynasty of Egypt now exposed in the Kerma Museum. Among the sculptures were ones belonging to the dynasty's last two pharaohs, Taharqa and Tanoutamon, whose statues are described as "masterpieces that rank among the greatest in art history."
Craniometric analysis of Kerma fossils comparing them to various other early populations inhabiting the Nile Valley and Maghreb found that they were morphologically close to Predynastic Egyptians from Naqada (4000–3200 BC). The Kermans were also more distantly related to Dynastic Egyptians from Gizeh (323 BC– AD 330) and Predynastic Egyptian samples from Badari (4400–4000 BC), followed by the ancient Garamantes of Libya (900 BC- AD 500), who were found to be most closely related to Neolithic sub-Saharan African samples, and Roman period Egyptians, and secondary to modern Tunisians and Moroccans as well as early osteological series from Algeria (1500 BC), Carthage in Tunisia (751 BC– AD 435), Soleb in Nubia (1575–1380 BC), and Ptolemaic dynasty-era samples from Alexandria in Egypt (323 BC– AD 30).[30]
Dental trait analysis of Kerma fossils found affinities with various populations inhabiting the Nile Valley, Horn of Africa, and Northeast Africa, especially to other ancient populations from the central and northern Sudan. Among the sampled populations, the Kerma people were overall nearest to the Kush populations in Upper Nubia, the A-Group culture bearers of Lower Nubia, and to Ethiopians, followed by the Meroitic, X-Group and Christian period inhabitants of Lower Nubia, and then to the C-Group and Pharaonic era skeletons excavated in Lower Nubia and ancient Egyptians (Naqada, Badari, Hierakonpolis, Abydos and Kharga in Upper Egypt; Hawara in Lower Egypt).
Claude Rilly, citing anthropologist Christian Simon, reports that the population of the Kingdom of Kerma was morphologically heterogeneous, with three main clusters in terms of morphological tendencies (A, B, C): Cluster A is similar to a sample of modern Kenyan skeletons. Cluster C is similar to a sample of Middle Empire skeletons from the region of Assuan, and Cluster B, which although distinct from Cluster C, shares many common features with it. He notes that clusters A and B were present in Early Kerma in ("Kerma ancien") but became the majority in the following Middle Kerma ("Kerma moyen"), and that Cluster C was mainly present in early Kerma and "possibly represents the descendency of the Pre-Kerma population that founded Kerma 4 km away from the original settlement, when the Nile riverbed shrunk..." Rilly continues: "However, the fact that their cemetery remained on the ancestral site might indicate cultural and ethnical continuity between Pre-Kerma and the new city. Cluster A and B were already present in Kerma ancien, but become majoritary in the following stage."
Shomarka Keita, conducted an anthropological study which examined the crania of groups in the North African region which included samples from Kerma, circa 2000 BC, the Maghreb region, circa 1500 BC, and 1st dynasty crania from the royal tombs in Abydos, Egypt. The results of the study determined the predominant pattern of the 1st dynasty Egyptian crania was "Southern" (though others were also observed), which had affinities with Kerma Kushites. The general results demonstrate greater affinity with Upper Nile Valley groups, but also suggest clear change from earlier craniometric trends. The gene flow and movement of northern officials to the important southern city may explain the findings.
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
Kingdom of Kush (1070 BC)
quote:
With the disintegration of the New Kingdom around 1070 BC, Kush became an independent kingdom centered at Napata in modern northern Sudan. This more-Egyptianized "Kingdom of Kush" emerged, possibly from Kerma, and regained the region's independence from Egypt. The extent of cultural/political continuity between the Kerma culture and the chronologically succeeding Kingdom of Kush is difficult to determine. The latter polity began to emerge around 1000 BC, 500 years after the end of the Kingdom of Kerma.
The Kush rulers were regarded as guardians of the state religion and were responsible for maintaining the houses of the gods. Some scholars[who?] believe the economy in the Kingdom of Kush was a redistributive system. The state would collect taxes in the form of surplus produce and would redistribute to the people. Others believe that most of the society worked on the land and required nothing from the state and did not contribute to the state. Northern Kush seems to have been more productive and wealthier than the Southern area.
Dental trait analysis of fossils dating from the Meroitic period in Semna, in northern Nubia near Egypt, found that they displayed traits similar to those of populations inhabiting the Nile, Horn of Africa, and Maghreb. Traits from mesolithic and southern Nubia around Meroe however indicated a closer affinity with other sub-Saharan dental records. It is indicative of a north–south gradient along the Nile river.
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
KUSH AND EGYPT
Originally posted by Truthcentric
quote: quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: Kush is worth studying in its own right and not simply through the lenses of ancient Egypt. They had different gods, burial customs, and even different written and spoken languages. Also, even sticking to the Pyramids, the way that Kushites were constructing them was through an entirely different process as not only were they smaller, but at much steeper angles and required different geometry.
Studying Kush as merely "a continuation of Pharaonic culture" is exactly what Eurocentrists love to do.
What Eurocentrists want to do is portray Egyptians and Nubians as fundamentally different and unrelated people and write off any cultural affinities between them as Egyptian impositions onto Nubian culture rather than evidence of a shared heritage. Kush is not a carbon copy of Egypt for sure, just as Rome is not a carbon copy of Greece and Babylon a carbon copy of Sumer, but I am even more angered by the common view that Kushites were African but Egyptians were not.
I'm so sick of kemet! by TRUTH TEACHER Published on Oct 6, 2016
quote: Why is it that so many so-called conscious and Afrocentric people pay so much attention to Kemet, yet ignore the rest of Africa, especially the regions where their ancestors came from, which is Central and Western Africa?
Why is it they can talk to you for days on end about the blackness of Kemet, yet not be able to name you even one civilization in West Africa? Or if they can, they have the need to invent history and claim these people are Egyptian immigrants when there is absolutely no hard evidence to support such a notion?
Why is it so outrageous to accept the fact that Egypt was only one of many civilizations and cultures on the African Continent and that peoples in the other regions had their own unique cultures and achievements?
Why can't we as people of African descent have just as much reverence for the ancestors of our own bloodline as we do for people who are most likely not related to us at all?
Yes, they were fellow Africans, but they were not of our direct bloodline. Pay homage to your own house first before pat homage to your neighbor's. Take care of the children of your own house before you try to take care of some other child in the neighborhood.
by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
quote: Sure. I've said the same thing for years, and disputed those who see Kemet as some sort of "central headquarters" of civilization or advanced culture in Africa. To the contrary, the opposite seems more appropriate- Africa itself is the "headquarters" and Egypt is a "branch office" thereof. To rework the title of Van Sertima's book- "Egypt- Child of Africa," Kemet is is a very important child to be sure, but ultimately just one of the many offspring Africa gave birth to.
I agree with many parts of the critique in the video but would point out that African people do not seem to be any more obsessed with Egypt compared to white people, who are the biggest appropriators and users of Kemet's cultural iconography, art and much else. Many white people are the biggest hypocrites in this area- they themselves being massively obsessed with Kemet while presumptuously lecturing black folk bout how they should "focus" on Nubia and elsewhere, as if only white people are "qualified" to study and comment on things in the field. White people even appropriated and consumed the dead flesh of Egyptian mummies at one time for their medicinal systems.
And black popular culture in the US on a whole is not that heavy into Kemet. Most cultural linkups focus on West Africa or East Africa (the Swahili cultural orbit) not Kemet. Kwanza is an example, as are black baby names. When the last time you run into some black kid named "Tutankhamen" compared to the much larger number of "sub-Saharan" or Islamic origin names? It was not Kareem Amenhotep, but Kareem Abdul Jabbar, or Malcolm El Shabazz.
In the 1960s the inspiration was mostly West African- with dashikis and NATURAL "Afro" hair styles not wigs as in popular Kemet. So-called "black militants" were not running much to Egypt compared to West Africa- as Stokely Carmichael, aka Kwame Ture can attest.
Do SOME black people go overboard with Kemet? YEs. Is there an almost cultish obsession with SOME "Afrocentric" types? Certainly. But viewed in larger context, let's not overplay things. White obsession is miles ahead of what black folk are doing. And Kemet does not really resonate in black popular culture, compared to West/East African/Islamic influences. Among a small minority? Sure but overall there does not appear to be an "Kemetic" movement. Hell its sometimes hard to get some among that small minority to update their knowledge with modern data. Some are still preaching Chancellor Williams 1970, or Diop 1964- good foundational background to be sure with the data available at the time, but the field has since moved on. And that plays into the hands of assorted dishonest enemies who go around acting as of every black student in the country is a "disciple" of George James circa 1959. My critique of the bogus strawman book "White Athena" on Amazon makes this very point. The same critique can be applied to the Arabist hypocrites desperately trying to "distance" themselves from "anything too African" when hard data shows that the foundation of Kemet is precisely that which is "African". The above being said there is a need to of course learn more about ALL parts of the continent.
by Nodnarb
quote:
Along with the obvious fact that ancient Egypt receives more mainstream media exposure than other African cultures, I believe it has a special attraction to "Afrocentric" types because it's perceived as a major influence on the development of so-called Western civilization (through the proxies of Greece and then Rome of course). Not to mention the irony of an advanced civilization thriving in Africa when most of northern Europe was still at a "tribal" level of organization. It would be the ultimate rebuttal to the white supremacist narrative that Africans are naturally less capable of civilization than Europeans. So that's probably why Egypt is more contentious territory than, say, Mali or Zimbabwe.
by Oshun
quote: Egypt given lots of attention cause the discoveries and science and math were the foundation for a lot of progress in those field for ancient Europe. Much of their ideas are still directly relevant today in technology, science and mathematics. While we know now by a few resources that West African civilizations contemporary to Egypt existed, it's not really known like it is with Egypt what they were like, let alone what they could've been accomplishin still relevant today (see Tichitt)
by Nodnarb
quote: I agree with this as well. The African quality of Kush, Mali, or Zimbabwe doesn't get ignored or denied as much as Egypt's. Instead it's pretty much taken for granted. So yeah, even people who don't necessarily gravitate towards Egypt more than other African civilizations might still find themselves arguing about it more since it's more contested territory.
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
Egypt and Sub-Saharan Africa: Their Interaction
quote: The relationship between Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa has been a difficult subject for archaeology and Egyptology. Unlike the cultures of western Asia, which provide a continuous synchronic matrix of interrelated high cultures across the whole region, Egypt, for the period of its ancient greatness (about 4000 B.C. to A.D. 300), was a lonely eminence of concentrated monumentality on the African continent, with the kingdoms of Nubia and Sudan as her only other native companions in scale. In the past, attempts to explore Egypt's involvement with her own continent had to rely on vague, sometimes contradictory, and often fantastic accounts of Greeks or on comparisons with sometimes unreliable reports of current conditions, none of them filling the scholar's perceived need for a dense network of contemporary evidence. As a result, most scholars avoided the subject, and some, noting the lack of evidence, even denied that the relationship was significant. However, in recent decades, political movements gave energy to the question. Major, detailed epigraphic and archaeological exploration of the Sahara, archaeological research in central Africa, and well-documented studies of modern peoples offer new opportunities to examine the relationship between Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa with greater confidence in the results. Nevertheless, there are large gaps in the evidence of all types, and many different opinions will have to be tried and discarded before some prove durable.
Although Egypt is now separated from sub-Saharan Africa geographically by a huge expanse of desert and culturally by large areas dominated by Arabic-speaking peoples, neither condition prevailed throughout ancient times. During Egypt's formative ages, the Sahara was not truly a desert, while the Nile Valley and Red Sea Hills provided well-watered routes for trade and migration at all periods.
The Aqualithic (Early Neolithic) Age
Before the Neolithic era, episodes of extremely hostile climatic conditions left long gaps in Egypt's cultural record. The beginning of continuous occupation was the early Neolithic era. This time period saw the widespread appearance of two cultural types, the multibarbed bone harpoon, which appears in the Paleolithic era in central Africa, and pottery bowls and jars decorated with impressed patterns of dotted, wavy lines. An independent development in Africa, this pottery appeared almost as far west as the Atlantic along the southern fringes of what is now the Sahara and spread north along the Nile. The harpoon spread similarly but much farther north along the Nile and reached into Palestine. It is not always easy to connect deeper cultural life with practical artifacts, but this was also the era when rock drawings in the so-called round-head style first spread across the Sahara, probably reaching the parts of Egypt where sandstone outcrops make rock art possible. The rock art does not give detailed records, but it does clearly indicate that important cultural links spread across the continent.
The Nubian and the Taso-Badarian Cultures
The culture of Egypt as we understand it emerged in Upper (southern) Egypt during the Nagada period. Its cultural forebears actually appeared in Upper Egypt somewhat earlier, in the Tasian and Badarian cultures. In some significant aspects of culture, such as pottery, Egypt maintained important relations with Nubia and Sudan, directly to the south. Vessels with rippled surfaces, produced by burnishing a rocker-incised vessel with a pebble, appear in both places made in related shapes. A distinctive tulip-shaped vessel with incised and white-filled decoration also appeared in Upper Egypt and Sudan. Both of these features could be considered Sudanese. Some other objects, including palettes and the harpoons, were also probably of Sudanese origin, but the culture of Upper Egypt already differed from Sudan. Some differences may have been due to contact with the cultures of northern Egypt and the Libyan Desert (which was not a desert at the time), but others appear to have been due to internal development. Among these are coffin burials and animal representations on ivory spoons and pendants, both significant developments in symbolic life. Nevertheless, Upper Egypt continued to share traditions with Sudan, such as the deposit of rich property in burials, including female figurines, which did not characterize northern Egypt.
The Nagada Period
The Nagada period, called, misleadingly, the predynastic period, represented a vast expansion and elaboration of material culture in almost every sphere and was a clear outgrowth of the preceding cultures in Upper Egypt. Internal coherence, sophistication, and wealth in the Nagada period were such that new ideas and influences from the south were often difficult to detect. By the start of the 1st Dynasty, elements appeared that can be traced into specific hieroglyphic form in Egypt. Rock drawings include boats that later appear as the sacred conveyance of Egypt's pharaohs and gods. Humans and animals appear in hunting scenes in Saharan rock art in its earlier hunting or roundhead style. Some art in early Egypt included composite figures of animal-headed humans, common images in the Sahara. Some southern pottery types do exist, and some burials with distinctive shell-hook ornaments may belong to persons from Lower Nubia, the region between Aswan and the Second Cataract.
At this time, and until the coming of Islam, the area south of Aswan, at least, may be considered part of sub-Saharan Africa, and it was here that the first influences of Egypt on the south appear. The civilization of Egypt, even in this early phase, can be considered Nilotic, and its specific influence was almost always confined to the valley and adjacent regions. In the early, Nagada I period, Egyptian pottery and objects were deposited in Nubian-style round graves just south of Aswan. These objects are convincingly at home, and they were accompanied, as this culture spread southward, by rock drawings that included ships of the same types as found in Upper Egypt. The culture, the A-Group, became more and more distinct from the Nagada culture as it expanded southward, absorbing ideas from the Sudanese cultures nearby, but it nonetheless participated strongly in the development of Nagada period culture and symbolism. (The cultural labels A-Group, B-Group, and so on reflect archaeologists' perception of distinct and discrete cultural assemblages with traits that occur at particular times and places and that distinguish them from other groupings.) Nagada symbolism included the first pharaonic images—images that indicate that the office of pharaoh preceded the 1st Dynasty by some centuries. The earliest evidence of pharaonic figures is rare, but the ships that are a major part of the symbolism are not, and it is no surprise that in the late Nagada period, one of the places where pharaohs were buried was near the southern end of Lower Nubia. Although Qustul shared this distinction with Hierakonpolis, Nagada, Abydos, and probably a few other places in Upper Egypt, there is evidence that the Qustul kingdom was united as far north as Aswan, and perhaps farther, making it the most geographically extensive of the group. It even remains possible that the dynasts (rulers) who ultimately united Egypt were Nubian. There were some Nubian pottery vessels in Upper Egypt at this time, and some A-Group tombs can be identified, one of them of royal type.
The Archaic Period and the Old Kingdom
At the beginning of the 1st Dynasty, Pharaoh Aha claimed the smiting of Ta Seti (Nubia), and settlement all but disappeared in Nubia's northern regions for several centuries. Adopting an apparent antisettlement policy in Sinai and perhaps southern Palestine as well as Nubia, Egypt was effectively isolated, except for overseas contacts with Punt (the Horn of Africa) and the coast of Asia. This did not mean the diminution of Egypt's African substratum, but an elaboration and intense refinement that accompanied the unprecedented concentration of wealth and power in the Egyptian state. When Egypt again confronted its neighbors in Africa directly, it was on dramatically different ground.
At this point, some word about the African substratum is appropriate. As different as a 4th Dynasty pharaoh and a rain king in modern-day southern Sudan might appear, they faced much the same situation. A man who incarnates a god is responsible for maintaining a harmonious relationship between the world of human action and the world of the divine, which controls the forces of nature. As he is more or less successful in this task, so goes his career. His rule is not automatically stable, since it depends, for example, on a productive natural cycle, so success might found a dynasty, while failure would reveal that the incarnation had moved on to others. The latter is sooner or later inevitable. The one great difference between the incarnations of Sudan and Egypt was that in Sudan the incarnations are primarily concerned with rain, while in Egypt the flood was paramount. Some peoples in Sudan have incarnations of spirits that specialize in different types of problems, while in Egypt, the pharaoh was the center of divine activity. To him fell the duty of controlling chaos—relating with the gods through the cult, controlling the animals through mass hunts (the same as campaigns), and defeating enemies and rebels, executing their leaders, hacking up their towns and lands, leading the people off to captivity, and, finally, ensuring the arrival of tribute.
Egypt's historical records of contacts with southern lands before the end of the 5th Dynasty are few, and they mostly mention campaigns or raids in the dry and compact style of early Egyptian annals. The Egyptians must have feared some power in the south, because they substantially fortified their southernmost city, on Elephantine Island. One significant archaeological find, at Buhen near Wadi Haifa, was a group of fortified factories or workshops for working metal. Seal impressions at the site indicate that many items were imported from Egypt, but there was also local pottery, resembling that of the A-Group produced hundreds of years earlier. Still, it is fair to say that the era contemporary with Egypt's archaic and Old Kingdom periods is poorly represented archaeologically in Nubia and even deeper in Sudan. However, this condition can be deceptive, for much archaeological knowledge depends on pottery, which can be abandoned by mobile people in favor of gourds, baskets, and leather containers, which are light, strong, and capable of being impressively decorated.
By the beginning of the 6th Dynasty, possibly as early as the mid-5th, all this changed. Nubia, at least as far as Dongola and possibly as far south as Khartoum, was intensively resettled, most likely from the south and west. Nubians quickly entered Egyptian service, primarily as soldiers, but they also rapidly founded several principalities or kingdoms on the Nile south of Aswan. These polities are readily recognizable as an African cattle culture, for they often represented cattle in a way that indicated special honor, their tombs frequently contain cowhide garments and wrappings, and cattle horns were deposited with burials. Sometimes at Kerma in the Dongola Reach, important persons had the skulls of hundreds of cattle ringing their tumuli (mound-type graves). The culture of this period has other inner-African characteristics, such as tumulus burials surrounded by stone rings, leather garments decorated with geometric patterns of beads, and black polished pottery with incised designs. Important Nubian features, which must have survived without durable expression in tombs and pottery, continued traditions known in the A-Group, and Nubia rapidly became important to Egypt, and vice versa.
Two groups of Egyptian documents are coupled with this rapid archaeological emergence. The more colorful are a series of tomb biographies of the Egyptian governors of Aswan who were charged with control of the southern lands. These record armed caravans that passed through the emerging kingdoms to trade with the most southern countries known, possibly Punt. They sometimes acted in a high-handed manner, and the princes closest to the Egyptian frontier were sometimes tributary. However, Nubians who went to Egypt became important enough there to be feared, and some 177 of them were cursed in ritual texts. The traffic between Nubia and Egypt already flowed in both directions, but it was in the next period that Nubia's influence became most obvious.
The First Intermediate Period and the Middle Kingdom
By the First Intermediate Period, Nubians deeply penetrated Egyptian life, most prominently as soldiers but also as administrators. At least one Nubian cemetery is known north of Aswan, at Wadi Kubbaniya. Some women rose high in the Theban court during the 11th Dynasty, and the ruler they served, Mentuhotep I, may himself have had a Nubian background. There were some cultural contributions from the south. Women with Nubian-style tattoos were found buried in tombs of good quality and prominent position at Thebes. Chapel paintings at Beni Hasan depict men wrestling in a situation so prominent that a symbolic, rather than merely sporting, purpose is implied, perhaps akin to the wrestling customs of the modern Nuba. These are details, as is the thin man who has a big shock of woolly hair and is shown leading cattle to the owners of tombs at Beni Hasan and Meir. This figure is probably also a Nubian. The difficulty of identifying influences from Nubia, or elsewhere in Africa, is intensified by twin problems: the cultures were closely related enough that innovations from the south appear imperceptibly merged into Egyptian life, and Egypt's vast cultural apparatus rapidly overwhelmed influences from its related neighbors.
The same was not true of Egyptian objects and ideas in the south. Egyptian products had become so distinctive and urbane that they normally stand out from the simpler items produced even by sophisticated cultures elsewhere. Thus beads of Egyptian manufacture appear in large numbers of C-Group tombs in Lower Nubia, and beads of precious metal fashioned into virtually perfect rings appear far more often than in Egypt, reflecting, perhaps, the high rewards of a military career in the north. In some of the richer Nubian cemeteries, there are more elaborate objects, mostly jewelry, and sometimes even stelae (carved or inscribed stone slabs used for commemorative purposes). These were always associated with C-Group tumuli, but there is evidence of even greater influence. A number of inscriptions carved on the rocks record two pharaohs with names characteristic of the period. A third pharaoh, who once called himself Son of Re, had a Nubian personal name. Since he recorded a battle in the north of his kingdom, he must have fought some Egyptians, but he nevertheless used Egyptian titles in an Egyptian way, which shows he had an Egyptian court.
The bidirectional communication was perhaps emphasized by the birth of the founder of the 12th Dynasty to a woman from Nubia or Aswan. Amenemhat rose to the vizierate under the last pharaoh of the 11th Dynasty, whom he ultimately replaced. For important political reasons, however, he moved the government back from Thebes to Memphis, and the south was, for a time, eclipsed. His successors embarked on a career of expansion in Nubia. Fortresses were built to keep the population of northern Nubia under control and those outside away. Migration into Egypt, which had filled private armies with capable southern soldiers, was severely restricted. All of this took place in part because Egypt wanted ready access to resources in the north. However, more important was the rise of a considerable southern power, Kush (or Cush). The rise of this power and the Egyptians it employed illustrate a major mode by which Egypt influenced its neighbors, in Africa and outside.
As shown in the records or representations of every era, Egyptian administrators used elements of force and exaction. They invited strangers from outside to serve the Egyptian powers in their various projects. At the same time, they encouraged Egyptians to seek their fortunes in freer, but possibly more hazardous, climes. From some records, it is clear that many expatriates had skills confined to cultivation, but others included professionals, such as the soldier Sinuhe, who fled to Asia, and ship captains, who worked at Kerma, the capital of Kush, in Sudan. Also at Kerma, metalworkers erected a great box-shaped oven with subterranean fire boxes and long flues, part of a large and complex metal factory located in front of the main temple of the city. The skills these metallurgical craftsmen brought from Egypt later provided Kerma with some of its most impressive objects, some of military significance. Late in the Middle Kingdom, this outpouring of skill and population so enhanced the wealth and power of western Asia and Sudan that immigration to Egypt was again common, and ultimately, Egypt fell under the domination of these powers.
The Asiatic invaders of the 17th and 16th centuries B.C., the Hyksos, have received most of the attention, but Kushites, centered on Kerma in Sudan, conquered Lower Nubia as far as Aswan and allied themselves with the Hyksos. Egyptians remained in charge of the old fortress communities in northern Nubia, where they even acknowledged the Kushite ruler as a pharaoh on their monuments. There is reason to believe that the Kermans shared this attitude toward their ruler, for he was otherwise surrounded by attributes of the pharaonic office, although his tomb was a tumulus and his temples were heavy brick towers with small chambers that seem almost to be artificial caves. Other Nubians, the Medjay, entered Egyptian service, and their distinctive pottery and burials are known almost as far north as the Nile Delta. The pottery occurs commonly in all debris of the period. Egypt, dominated politically by Asiatics and Nubians, not surprisingly displayed many new foreign features in the early New Kingdom.
The New Kingdom The expulsion of the Asiatic invaders of Egypt also entailed the reconquest of northern Nubia by the start of the 18th Dynasty. The rulers of Kush, who had been begged by their Hyksos ally to strike at Egypt, found themselves hard-pressed, for Egypt, reversing a long-standing policy of avoiding far-flung conquest, conquered and absorbed Kush as far as the Fourth Cataract of the Nile. The Egyptians made use of both their own administrators and subordinate local rulers, but they came to impose more and more of the temple-based economy that dominated Upper Egypt. While Kushites went north primarily to present tribute to the Egyptian court or to serve as pages, Egypt entered into its greatest age of direct influence on southern regions. With the temple estates came large temples and temple towns, often dedicated to Nubian aspects of Egyptian deities. Most prominent of these was the Amun-Re of Napata, whose temple was located just before the huge rock of Gebel Barkal, in which he was thought to reside. Although the people of Nubia hardly disappeared, the Egyptian influence was so strong that burial and religious practices appear Egyptian. On the other hand, there were a number of new influences from Nubia, including, perhaps, even some imagery of the national god Amun-Re, newly prominent after centuries of limited recognition.
In addition, early New Kingdom rulers have been connected with Nubia by some scientists, but among the other imports, the famous blue crown of New Kingdom rulers closely resembles a beaded miter crown once used in Cameroon. If it was an import, its symbolic importance would link the pharaonic office with the more recent rulers in southern Sudan. Another detail of symbolic importance from Nubia was the golden fly amulet, which became an Egyptian military decoration. In other cases, Egypt served as a conduit for spreading innovations from outside Africa more widely across the continent. For example, the horse-drawn chariot, a light car with four spoked wheels and pulled by two horses, is first clearly seen on stelae from the shaft graves at Mycenae. It is mentioned by Kamose and depicted in a rock drawing from Lower Nubia with a figure who carries an ax of late 17th Dynasty type. Pictures of the same type of vehicle and showing horses at a flying gallop, spread across the Sahara as far as Tassili-n-Ajjer. The occurrence of chariot tracks confirms the vehicle's prevalence and widespread distribution. This influence rebounded on Egypt when Libyans, in the late New Kingdom, attacked the Nile Delta using chariots of Egyptian type. Such a prominently displayed institution as chariotry must represent some influence on other aspects of life as well. The chariot remained important in the central Sahara, particularly among the Garamantes of Fezzan down into Roman times when their quadrigae (chariots drawn by four horses abreast) were famous.
The Kushite Centuries
At the end of the 2nd millennium and the beginning of the 1st, new powers rose to the south of the ancient world's fertile regions. Midian and South Arabia to the east, Kush along the Nile, and Garma in Fezzan emerged to mediate trade between the economic powers near the Mediterranean—the Fertile Crescent, Egypt, and Carthage—and regions to the south.
At the beginning of this period, Nubia fell away from Egyptian rule after its last viceroy, himself apparently a Nubian, intervened in the government of the high priest of Amun-Re in Upper Egypt. Although the adjacent regions of Africa are almost unknown in the centuries between 1100 and 900 B.C., once Nubia emerged again culturally and historically, it rose rapidly to lead Egypt to a new era of greatness. The first written records show us Pharaoh Piye on the march north of Thebes to settle the scandalously disordered state of Egypt and restore the proper regime of Amun-Re. Preceded by four generations of rulers interred under Nubian tumuli, he was buried under a pyramid, a type of tomb that was no longer used in Egypt. His burial in this way shows, first, that the Kushites viewed the pyramid as the equivalent of a tumulus and, second, the manner by which Kushites incorporated Egyptian culture into their civilization. Piye and his successors were in many respects Egyptian in dress and religion. They wrote in Egyptian but kept their Kushite names, mode of succession, and elements of dress or regalia. They had an especially high regard for horses, which were sacred to the sun god Re in Kush. Although they set up or restored pharaonic institutions, such as temples and nomes, in Kush, they clearly did so in a spirit of adaptation. In Egypt, they were regarded well enough that most of the country supported them against Assyria, although the Libyan-dominated north was often in revolt. However, the Assyrians prevailed, and Taharqo, the great builder, and his successor, Tanutamani, were finally driven from Egypt.
In their brief century of rule in Egypt, the Kushites had not merely pushed the country toward greatness, they had truly renewed pharaonic culture in Sudan. In a bold geographic initiative, they expanded the culture across a barren desert to the Isle of Meroe. There Kushite civilization blossomed in the last centuries B.C. with monumental cities scattered well away from the Nile. Kushite civilization became the key source of "Egyptian" influence in sub-Saharan Africa at that time.
The greatest city of Kush was Meroe, with a great royal walled compound, temples, pyramid cemeteries, and even a nymphaeum (public fountain and pool) and observatory. It also contained a thriving iron industry, one of the oldest in Africa, which may have played an important role in the spread of ironworking in the continent. The Meroites developed a method of gathering water into reservoirs for irrigation that is used in Sudan to this day. Although Meroitic culture preserved its pharaonic heritage and even imported some new fashions from Egypt, it increasingly went its own way, with new styles in art, local deities, and its own written language. Although its political power seems to have been concentrated along the Nile in the Dongola Reach and near the Nile in the Isle of Meroe just north of Khartoum, Meroitic goods and some influence— in both directions—can be traced at least as far south as Gebel Moya and Senaar in Sudan and as far east as Aksum.
At the end of the Meroitic period, in the 4th century A.D., the Isle of Meroe and the Nile Valley far to the north fell under the control of the Noba-Noubadians, people whose nearest relations are in Darfur. They returned to many non-Egypto-Kushite ideas and practices but used many Meroitic items and elements and adapted crowns and weapons to a new style. At least the weapon, a great, sword like spear, continued in use, through various modifications, to become the spear of southern Sudan and the lion spear of the Maasai.
General Themes
Relations between Egypt and Africa were mediated on the Nile side by the peoples of Kush. In the Eastern Desert, the Medjay (Bedja) separated Egypt from inland Punt, while on the Red Sea, the Puntites were the contact point for Egypt with the Horn of Africa and perhaps the coast beyond the Straits of Hormuz. Egypt, despite the contracted circumnavigation of the continent by Phoenician sailors for Psammetichos, pharaoh in the 7th century B.C., did not attempt to reach central Africa until the 1820s, but it initiated wider contacts than most African states before the Middle Ages, and they were certainly more wide ranging than the contacts of such famous entities as the Kongo kingdom, the Asante, and the Zulu.
Scattered through Egyptian history were periods when Egypt had particularly intense contacts with her neighbors in Africa, which included Punt on the Horn. In addition to the phases of contact and individual items of interchange, some objects and representations in Egypt have strong similarities in sub-Saharan Africa. In most cases, it is difficult to decide when the item was exchanged or how. Nevertheless, a number of elements, such as musical instruments, certain weapons, and ritualized contests, are similar enough to postulate that they originated in Egypt, sub-Saharan Africa, or someplace between, but that they could not have had a completely independent origin or one outside the continent. Future research may show that other elements—the composite beings of Saharan and Egyptian art, sacred sites and structures, including tumuli and pyramids, and decorated rock faces or clefts and Egyptian rock stelae and temples—also have a close relationship.
A major problem in tracing the flow of influence between Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa is that despite insistent attempts to prove the identity of some aspects of Egypt with some aspects found far across the continent, the cultural matrices are not mutually coherent. Relationships exist on a relatively diffused level, elements passed through many intermediaries, and some elements derived from traditions of remote origin, possibly in the Neolithic Sahara. Closer at hand, we can see actual relations more convincingly. If we accept the cultures of Neolithic Sudan as sub-Saharan, they played a strong, and possibly decisive, part in the original development of Egypt. In the 3rd millennium B.C., new cultures of sub-Saharan type came to dominate the Nile from the Fourth Cataract to Aswan and played a significant role in Egypt down to about 1600 B.C. Finally, Kush, in the 1st millennium B.C., may have had an immediate origin near the Nile, but the ancient Sudanese sub-Saharan culture was visible in its early phases and became more pronouced as the center moved to Meroe, which is almost as far south as Tombouctou.
The period when sub-Saharan Africa was most influential in Egypt was a time when neither Egypt, as we understand it culturally, nor the Sahara, as we understand it geographically, existed. Populations and cultures now found south of the desert roamed far to the north. The culture of Upper Egypt, which became dynastic Egyptian civilization, could fairly be called a Sudanese transplant. Egypt rapidly found a method of disciplining the river, the land, and the people to transform the country into a titanic garden. Egypt rapidly developed detailed cultural forms that dwarfed its forebears in urbanity and elaboration. Thus, when new details arrived, they were rapidly adapted to the vast cultural superstructure already present. On the other hand, pharaonic culture was so bound to its place near the Nile that its huge, interlocked religious, administrative, and formal structures could not be readily transferred to relatively mobile cultures of the desert, savanna, and forest. The influence of the mature pharaonic civilizations of Egypt and Kush was almost confined to their sophisticated trade goods and some significant elements of technology. Nevertheless, the religious substratum of Egypt and Kush was so similar to that of many cultures in southern Sudan today that it remains possible that fundamental elements derived from the two high cultures to the north live on.
Bibliography
Adam, S., with the collaboration of J. Vercoutter. 1981. The importance of Nubia: A link between central Africa and the Mediteranean. In UNESCO general history of Africa, vol. 2, ed. G. Mokhtar, 226-244. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Camps, G. 1982. Beginnings of pastoralism and cultivation in north-west Africa and the Sahara: Origins of the Berbers. In The Cambridge history of Africa, vol. 1, ed. J. D. Clark, 548-623. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
Debono, F. 1981. Prehistory in the Nile Valley. In UNESCO general history of Africa, vol. 1, ed. J. Ki-Zerbo, 634-655. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Hakem, A. A., with the collaboration of I. Hrbek and J. Vercoutter. 1981. The civilization of Napata and Meroe. In UNESCO general history of Africa, vol. 2, ed. G. Mokhtar, 198-325. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Kemp, B. J. 1982. Old Kingdom, Middle Kingdom and Second Intermediate Period in Egypt. In The Cambridge history of Africa, vol. 1. ed. J. D. Clark, 658-769. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
Kendall, T. 1989. Ethnoarchaeology in Meroitic studies. Meroitica 10: 625-745.
Leclant, J. 1981. The empire of Kush: Napata and Meroe. In UNESCO general history of Africa, vol. 2, ed. G. Mokhtar, 278-297. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Mauny, R. 1978. Trans-Saharan contacts and the Iron Age in West Africa. In The Cambridge history of Africa, vol. 2, ed. J. D. Page, 272-341. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
O'Connor, D. 1982. Egypt, 1552-664 B.C. In The Cambridge history of Africa, vol. 1. ed. J. D. Clark, 830-940. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
Sherif, N. M. 1981. Nubia before Napata (- 3100 to -750). In UNESCO general history of Africa, vol. 2, ed. G. Mokhtar, 245-277. Berkeley: University of California Press: 245-77.
Shinnie, P. L. 1978. The Nilotic Sudan and Ethiopia, In The Cambridge history of Africa, vol. 2, ed. J. D. Page, 210-271. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
Vercoutter, J. 1981. Discovery and diffusion of metals and development of social systems up to the fifth century before our era. In UNESCO general history of Africa, vol. 1, ed. J. Ki-Zerbo, 706-729. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Yoyotte, J. 1981. Pharaonic Egypt: Society, economy and culture. In UNESCO general history of Africa, vol. 2, ed. G. Mokhtar, 112-135. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Zayed, A. H., with the collaboration of J. Devisse. 1981. Egypt's relations with the rest of Africa. In UNESCO general history of Africa, vol. 2, ed. G. Mokhtar, 136-154. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Encyclopedia of Precolonial Africa, by Joseph O. Vogel, AltaMira Press, Walnut Creek, California (1997), pp. 465-472
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Round Temples discovered in Sudan
quote: Khartoum (AFP) - A veteran Swiss archaeologist has unearthed three temples in Sudan built thousands of years ago, a discovery he says promises to throw new light on Africa's buried ancient past. The round and oval shaped structures dating from 1,500 to 2,000 BC were found late last year not far from the famed archaeological site of Kerma in northern Sudan.
Charles Bonnet, 83, considered a master student of Sudan's rich archaeological heritage, told AFP that the sites unearthed during recent digs were unlike anything so far discovered. "This architecture is unknown ... there is no example in central Africa or in the Nile Valley of this architecture," Bonnet said as he wrapped up his months-long excavation.
The temples were found at Dogi Gel -- "Red Hill" -- located just several hundred metres from Kerma, where Bonnet and his team have been digging for decades. "At Kerma the architecture is square or rectangular shaped... and here just a kilometre away we have round structures," he said.
"We don't know of many round temples in the world... we don't have examples to compare." Bonnet, a wine grower in his youth, believes the treasure trove of three temples offer a never-before-seen insight into African ancient history, a subject that has always challenged researchers. "Nobody knows this architecture... It's completely new," Bonnet said, adding that the new structures did not resemble Egyptian or Nubian architecture -- two ancient archaeological influences in the region.
"There are no roots today in Africa and we have to find these roots... this is the secret of Africa."
- 'Discovering a new world' - Bonnet, who has been peeling back layers from the ancient kingdom of Kerma (2,500 to 1,500 BC) for decades, is credited with showing that Sudan was not merely a satellite of neighbouring Egypt and its wealth of ancient relics. Years ago he unearthed the seven "black pharaohs" granite statues of Sudan's Nubian rulers near the banks of the Nile.
Nubia was home to some of Africa's earliest kingdoms and was known for its rich deposits of gold, ivory and ebony. During this latest dig, Bonnet said, he also discovered "enormous fortifications" at Dogi Gel, an indication that much more awaits to be discovered at the site.
"That means this part of the world was defended by a coalition, probably of the king of Kerma with people coming from Darfur and from central Sudan" against ancient Egyptians, who were interested in controlling trade and commerce in central Africa. Bonnet, whose excavation work in Sudan spans more than 50 years, hopes his new discoveries could help unlock some of the continent's oldest mysteries.
"We are discovering a new world and this is the African world," he said, still baffled by what made ancient Egyptians who colonised Nubia maintain these temples.
With more and more archaeologists expressing interest in north Sudan's Nile Valley, where the Kushite kingdom flourished between present day Khartoum and the Egyptian border, Bonnet is convinced many kingdoms still lay buried.
"This country is enormous, it's the heart of Africa with many influences coming from the Red Sea, from Darfur and from Kordofan," he said.
"We have here extraordinary history of the world, maybe after some years we will have Sudanology as strong as Egyptology."
Nubia had several impressive architectural achievements.
quote: Archaeologists discovered a King's burial mound that measures 77meters in diameter and 12 meters in height. Meroe constructed an incredible stone structure called the Great Enclosure, which is, "a maze of enclosures, corridors, ramps, and chambers." This was a completely Meroitic accomplishment because, as Connah notes, it "has no Nubian or Egyptian parallel." In the time of Christian Nubia (6th to the 14th century) hundreds of stone and brick churches were constructed, "Many of the buildings were impressive structures with stone columns, masonry piers and brick vaults." Archeologists have also discovered a bathroom with hot water pipes during that period. As stated above, Meroitic pottery was among the finest in the world, surpassing even Egypt. Many homes also possessed latrines.
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quote: The land of Nubia was located in what is now Sudan and lower Egypt. Home to what is considered to be the earliest African culture, Nubia waves of Central African inhabitants managed to transform a land notorious for its high temperatures and infrequent rainfall into a series of kingdoms that influenced, occasionally conquered and inevitably outlasted their more famous Egyptian neighbours. Nubian achievements include the worlds first Archaeoastronomy devices, conceived approximately a millennium before Stonehenge.
quote: The lion temple itself is spectacular with the two entrance pylons having interesting depictions. This was the height of the Nubian rule and so the depictions of battle adorn the walls 5m high as well also a depiction of a fat Kush queen with long fingernails, quite contrary to the Egypt queens.
Ruled by queens
quote: furthermore,kush during part of it's history was ruled by strong and powerful queens.some time back i was at the british museum in london i stood before the beautifully sculpted head of augustus,the very one that candance amanirenas,queen of kush removed from a life size statue when her army plundered the city of aswan.The very same sculpture she too back to meroe and buried in the sand at the palace entrance so that it would lie beneath the sole of her foot each time she entered the palace.
queens of kush were full figured african women.kushites saw thier beauty,wealth and power reflected in the large size of their queens.these rulers were very eleagnt,using make up in a similar manner to thier neighbours the egyptians,paying speacial attention to their eye make-up. this elegance also showed itself in their long manicured nails. The kushites belived that long and beautiful nails were an indication that the person was rich and powerful enough never to do any manual work.
quote: (1) Nubia is an important ancient civilization in its own right; together, Nubia, Egypt and other Nile Valley civilizations comprise significant chapters in the evolution of the ancient world.
(2) Nubia offers a unique opportunity to study the history of an ancient civilization while research and knowledge about it is unfolding, and as new information is being interpreted and presented to the public.
The Great Pyramid at Giza, one of the grand monuments of ancient Egypt, was one of the seven wonders of the world. Until the Eiffel Tower was constructed in the 1800's, it was the tallest structure human beings ever built. How the pyramids were built with such precision is still a technological mystery! These monumental structures and much of Egypt's ancient history have long been encoded as significant in the annals of Western civilization. But hidden in most of our references about ancient history were another people and culture-developing, thriving, and competing with the ancient Egyptians. These were the Nubians and the Kingdom of Kush.
The Nubians lived in the territory that is now Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan and appeared at least 6000 years ago. The Nubians were shaped by Egypt, and in turn they influenced Egypt. They built powerful political states, including Kerma, Napata, and Meroe, in the heart of what is now Sudan. They were developers of agriculture, builders of pyramids, innovators in technology, and creators and bearers of significant religious, cultural, artistic, and social traditions. The Nubians were defenders of early Israel and important enough to be mentioned several times in the Bible, and in the writings of such early scholars as Herodotus, the Greek scholar known as the "Father of History". Nubia preceded ancient Greece and Rome, and outlasted them both. Not only was Nubia Egypt's rival in ancient Africa-the Nubians were, in fact, Egypt's rulers for many decades. How is it that we have come to know so well the Egyptians, but know so little about these Black people, the Nubians? How is it that we value the contributions of the Egyptians to world civilization while the contributions of the Nubians remain anonymous, if not invisible? And why have we not traced the lives of these most ancient Black people who have survived for more than six millennia down to modern times?
What has happened in history is not always what gets recorded as "History." This is certainly the case with the ancient Nubians, for their actual history has not been passed down to us. Scientists are often forced to reframe the core body of scientific knowledge in response to new discoveries. For example, according to a NASA spokesperson, new scientific evidence gathered from the Hubble telescope and other satellites requires that we "rewrite the science textbooks." But too often it appears difficult, if not impossible, for scholars and observers of human history and culture to understand how new scholarship and new research might lead to the need to "correct" our historical understanding. Attempts to revise standard history texts and reframe the past in light of new knowledge tend to provoke great controversy. Our perspective of ancient history and civilizations has focused on the Egyptians, since the rich body of archeological artifacts gave us a clearer view of their civilization than of any other from that period. However, we are now in a position to broaden our perspective of the ancient world thanks to new archeological discoveries in Nubia. A recent Time magazine article (Scott Macleod, "The Nile's Other Kingdom", September 15, 1997) reports that currently "at least 15 teams [of archeologists] from the U.S., Europe and Sudan are sifting through the same sands for secrets of ancient Nubia." (See Appendix G for the complete article). One of our principal consultants, Dr. Timothy Kendall of Boston's Museum of Fine Arts, was leading an expedition earlier this year when he discovered clues which may uncover a passage to the temple Jebel Barkal. The passage was closed by an earthquake around 100 or 200 A.D., and therefore the temple may contain artifacts that have been preserved for 18 centuries, and that may lead to insights about Nubian coronation rites and the symbiotic relationship between Nubia and Egypt. Dietrich Wildung, curator of the Egyptian Museum in Berlin, told Time that recent archeological findings, such as those of Dr. Timothy Kendall, represent "nothing less than the discovery of a new dimension of the ancient world."
French archeologists recently uncovered artifacts which predate the earliest prehistoric finds in Egypt by 3,000 years. Time reports that "this strongly suggests to Hassan Hussein Idris, director of Sudan's National Board for Antiquities and Museums, that ancient Nubia might have been an important source of Egypt's civilization, as well as the other way around." Although the question of which civilization first influenced the other is far from resolved, there is a scientific consensus that Nubia, which was once studied only as an "offshoot of Egyptian culture", did in fact develop "its own distinct civilization". Distinguished Swiss archeologist Charles Bonnet, another of our consulting scholars, "acknowledges that he went to Sudan initially to find Egyptian civilization. 'But step by step,' he confesses, 'I came to understand that the Nubian civilizations are really extraordinary. There might be Egyptian influences, but there is a Nubian originality and a Nubian identity.'"
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Here some other view points below.
THE GRANDEUR THAT WAS NUBIA
quote: More than 5,000 years ago,black-skinned Africans began to create one of the most technologically and culturally sophisticated cultures that the ancient world had ever seen. It is known today as Nubia.
By 1700 B.C., many Nubians were living in towns and small cities, including Kerma, which had a population of about 10,000 and was dominated by a royal palace and a temple towering 65 feet above the streets. Nubian society was complex, with several economic and social classes, from lowly craft workers and soldiers to priests and, at the top, a king, who administered a complex government bureaucracy. It was the Kingdom of Kush.
The city dwellers were fed by farmers in the surrounding countryside who raised wheat, barley, cattle and goats. Near one city lay a 200-acre cemetery dominated by huge, dome-shaped tombs. Inside, dead monarchs were laid on gold-covered beds and surrounded by furniture and personal goods such as bronze razors and carved stone containers of eye makeup.
A thousand years later, about 730 B.C., this same, durable African civilization pushed its armies north into the territory of Egypt, its longtime rival which had been undergoing a comparable development of its culture over roughly the same period.
As a result, a Nubian monarch named Piye (pronounced pie) conquered Egypt and unified its territory with his own. The Kingdom of Nubia and Egypt stretched 1,200 miles from the junction of the White Nile and the Blue Nile near modern Khartoum in Sudan, north to the Nile delta on the Mediterranean Sea.
For nearly a century, Nubian kings would be pharaohs, ruling one of the world's most advanced civilizations.
In subsequent centuries, Nubians adopted the Egyptian method of writing but then discarded the cumbersome hieroglyphic system and, in an intellectual achievement rare in human history, invented a more sophisticated way of writing, using an alphabet. At the same time, Nubia greatly advanced its iron industry, manufacturing tools and weapons.
If any of this seems suprising, you're not alone. In recent years, historians and archaeologists have surprised themselves with what has been discovered about a place and time in the human past that was either unrecognized or whose significance was dismissed, often for racist reasons.
Because the Nubian civilization lay just south of ancient Egypt, many experts in ancient history once contended that the Nubians borrowed much of their culture from the supposedly more advanced people to the north. In those days, many authorities thought of Egyptians as being more like Europeans than Africans.
"What we realize now is that the Nubians weren't copying the Egyptians; they were innovators in their own right," says Peter Lacovara, an Egyptologist at Boston's Museum of Fine Arts who studies Nubia. "In fact, they were often more innovative than the Egyptians in their use of different materials and in their artistic styles. Nubian ceramics were well beyond Egypt in technology and decoration."
Although archaeological expeditions had been finding Nubian artifacts and digging into Nubian towns and cemeteries for more than a century, most scholars paid little attention to those finds until recently.
"In the past, Nubia didn't fit into the usual racial theories," says Richard Lobban of the African and African-American studies program of Rhode Island College. "These were unequivocally African people ruling one of the largest, most complex societies on Earth at the time, and that just didn't sit well. So they kind of ignored it."
Lobban says scholarly attitudes changed as a result of the decolonization of African countries, the civil rights movement and the growth of African studies programs.
"People used to say Africa had no history," Lobban says. "They can't get away with that any more. We know now that Nubia was a complex society that was the equal of Egypt. Nubia and Egypt were really rivals. At one time, Egypt conquers Nubia and makes it a colony. Then later Nubia conquers Egypt.
"For practically a hundred years after that, the Nubians were the main power of the world. They didn't just visit Egypt. They ruled it, they had a foreign policy, they interacted with the Phoenicians, the Assyrians, the Judeans. Did you know the Nubians built more pyramids than the Egyptians did? What were the Europeans doing at that time? Putting one stone on top of another, that's about all. This is a view that doesn't square with the racist model of Africans."
Two remarkable displays of ancient Nubian artifacts are to open soon at the Smithsonian Institution's Museum of African Art. The first, "Ancient Nubia: Egypt's Rival in Africa," starts May 24 and closes Sept. 4. Then on July 26, the museum introduces a three-year exhibition called "The Ancient City of Kerma, 2500-1500 B.C." PEOPLE AND PLACES
Ancient Nubia was much like Ancient Egypt in that its people lived close to the Nile, farming fertile flood plains along its banks. Away from the riverine oasis lay forbidding desert. Egypt occupied nearly 700 miles of the river's length southward from the Mediterranean, Nubia the next 1,000 miles.
Anthropologists and historians consider the two peoples as having been quite distinct -- speaking different languages, for example. Nubia was a black African culture, trading with other Africans to its south and with Egyptians to the north.
In physical features, ancient Nubians are believed to have resembled modern Sudanese. Egypt was more of what today would be called a multiracial culture, its people ranging from olive-skinned Mediterranean types to a dark brown, much as do modern Egyptians. Being on the coast, Egypt received ships and sailors from other Mediterranean cultures, as well as caravans of Semitic peoples from Arabia. Intermarriage among various groups was common, including Nubians who settled in Egypt.
Although Nubia often is regarded as a single entity, it had three distinct regions, each separated from the other by areas of infertile land that supported few people. Historians, confusingly, call the northernmost area Lower Nubia because it is downstream and the central one Upper Nubia. Farther south is the third area, called southern Nubia.
Over the centuries, the three regions grew or declined in power and cultural complexity at different times, joining under one rule in some centuries, splitting in others.
The economies of Egypt and Nubia usually were strong, each producing food surpluses that could support city dwellers. Nubia's wealth also grew from sale of exotic commodities to Egypt. These included gold from Nubian mines in the eastern desert and such other luxury goods as ivory, incense, ebony and leopard skins. Later, Nubia's iron industry became a source of revenue.
Anthropologists have long held that accumulation of wealth plays a key role in the development of civilization. This is because it permits the rise of an urban culture in which people can specialize in art, manufacturing, crafts, priestly and administrative roles. And it permits creation of a professional military class. THE RISE OF ROYAL NUBIA
A major debate about Nubia involves when its society changed from that of a "complex chiefdom" to that of a state governed by a king or queen. A complex chiefdom is ruled by what anthropologists call a paramount chief, acting through subchiefs who usually attain their jobs as a hereditary right. A state is ruled by a leader, typically a king, with a professional, salaried bureaucracy.
The transition reflects a high level of social complexity and growth of the population to a size generally held to be greater than 100,000.
In the 1970s, Bruce Williams of the University of Chicago's Oriental Institute found evidence leading him to believe that Nubia reached statehood and developed the monarchy before Egypt. On a stone incense burner recovered from a 5,100-year-old Nubian cemetery at Qustul, Williams noticed the carved image of a man wearing the type of headdress known from later Egyptian art as a king's crown. Above him is a falcon, a symbol that Egyptians later would link to royalty.
"That indicated to me the Nubians developed the monarchy first and that it spread to Egypt," Williams said. "This was clearly not an Egyptian object. The Nubians had incense burners. The Egyptian's didn't."
The claim was challenged and remains a minority view.
"Nubia was just too small at that time," said David O'Connor of the University of Pennsylvania's University Museum. "There's no doubt the incense burner is Nubian, but the artist most likely was Egyptian."
At about the time of the Qustul cemetery, Egypt's first royal dynasty emerged. O'Connor contends that there is no evidence that any Nubian area grew large enough in population to qualify as a monarchy or state until about 2400 B.C., about 700 years later. That's when the Kingdom of Kush, as it is called in the Bible and in Egyptian records, arose.
As Kush blossomed, the town of Kerma grew to be a small city, the earliest known African city beyond Egypt. Thirty-foot walls surrounded the city center. Inside were many houses with small gardens, shops, a palace, a royal audience hall and a tall temple.
About two miles outside the city lay a royal cemetery. The plot is remarkable because it shows that Nubia, despite centuries of trade with Egypt, was not copying Egyptian ways but had created its own, highly distinctive culture.
While Egyptians were burying their royals in square-bottomed pyramids, the kings of Kush were interred in huge, round, dome-shaped structures. In the early days of Nubia, burials were in small, round tombs. But as the civilization developed, its tombs grew in size. Also, as the society became more complex and people came to occupy different economic and social levels, the sizes of their tombs grew to reflect their positions.
The largest known dome tomb, shown in the sketch, was about 300 feet across and built on a framework of mud brick walls. Spaces between walls were filled with sand and gravel, and the roof was tiled with a layer of bricks. At the center stood the burial chamber, a room in which archaeologists found the skeleton of a man lying on a well-made wooden bed partially covered with gold. Egyptians, by contrast, mummified their dead and buried them in coffins.
Interred with the king were large amounts of pottery, other household furnishings, bronze swords and personal equipment such as razors and makeup kits. Also in the tomb were the remains of about 400 other people, apparently servants and concubines sacrificed to accompany the monarch in the afterlife.
"The scale of the royal tumuli {mound-shaped tombs} and of two associated funerary temples built in brick is impressive, even by Egyptian standards," O'Connor wrote in his book, "Ancient Nubia: Egypt's Rival in Africa." NUBIA VS. EGYPT During almost five centuries when Egypt dominated northern and central Nubia from 1550 B.C. to 1070 B.C., the city of Napata grew in political importance. It was an Egyptian administrative center, and although Egyptian officials were posted there, they ruled through a government that included many Nubian leaders as princes.
Nubia paid taxes and tribute to the Egyptian king, or pharoah. Some Nubians moved to Egypt, and some Egyptians settled in Nubia. Although color was not a barrier to advancement in Egyptian ruling circles, language and other cultural and religious differences were. As a result, ambitious Nubians adopted the ways of their northern neighbors and, according to Egyptian records, prospered. Many Nubians had Egyptian and Nubian names.
When Egypt withdrew from Nubia, it left Napata a prosperous and powerful city. As a result, Napata quickly became the new capital of a united northern and central Nubia, liberated and culturally vigorous. About three centuries later, Egypt fragmented into several independent states. The rulers of Napata invaded and took control.
Nubian pharaohs quickly established a reputation as fair and just rulers. The Greek historian Herodotus wrote of one Nubian pharaoh, Sabacos, that he never put convicted criminals to death but required them to perform the ancient equivalent of community service.
According to Frank M. Snowden Jr., a Howard University historian and author of several books on Africans in the ancient world, the image of "pious and just" Nubians persisted until late in the Roman Empire. Moreover, the image of Nubian men was exalted, Snowden notes. Herodotus, for example, once referred to Nubians as "the tallest and handsomest men in the whole world." Samia B. Dafa'alla, a historian at the University of Khartoum in Sudan, notes that the conquering Nubians "entered Egypt as a civilized people. They did not destroy Egypt's monuments or symbols. On the contrary, they adopted many elements of Egyptian civilization."
One result was that when Nubia withdrew from Egypt, it took many Egyptian customs with it, giving Napatan art and architecture a distinctly Egyptian cast. MEROE -- NUBIA'S CULTURAL PEAK About 250 B.C., the capital of Nubia was moved farther south to the city of Meroe (MARE-oh-way). For the next 600 years, Meroe would be one of the world's great cultural centers, frequently cited in the literature of ancient Greece and Rome as on a par with other world capitals. In some ancient writings, it was still known as Kush.
The Meroites built large temples, palaces and tombs, many of which stand today, though in various stages of decay. In the Meroitic provincial capital of Karanog, in northern Nubia, researchers have found remains of a palace that stood three stories high with vaulted ceilings in each floor.
Archaeological evidence indicates that Meroe's population grew significantly over the centuries, indicating an increase in prosperity probably based on increasingly intensive agriculture fed by irrigation systems that tapped man-made reservoirs.
Meroe's agriculture also was aided by a large iron-making industry, which allowed manufacture of superior farming implements.
How to extract iron from ore in special furnaces is thought to have been discovered before 1500 B.C. in what now is Turkey It appeared in Egypt about 50 years later and may have spread thence to Nubia. Some authorities, however, suggest that Nubians developed their own iron industry as an offshoot of their longstanding knowledge of how to refine gold, silver and copper.
Bronze technology also was well established in Nubia at least as long ago as the time of Kerma more than 1,000 years earlier. Wherever iron-making began, it flourished in Meroe. Huge heaps of slag, the ore left after iron has been extracted, still lie in many places around the city's ruins.
So do remains of elaborate furnaces with air ducts through which workers fanned flames and channels through which molten metal flowed. Industrial production of iron and production of iron tools and weapons continued at Meroe until at least the first century A.D.
Meroe's other great achievement was independent invention of an alphabet.
Although Nubians had long been familiar with Egyptian hieroglyphic writing, they initially had no way of recording the Meroitic language. Then, not long after the rise of Meroe, they did. Moreover, it was unlike Egyptian writing, which required hundreds of pictures. Instead it used an alphabet of just 23 symbols.
How this happened, no one knows, but the Meroitic alphabet is entirely independent of other alphabetic forms of writing at the time, such as Phoenician and Greek. Moreover, Meroitic writing differed from Egyptian in that it contained written vowel notations while Egyptian did not. Despite this achievement, one problem persists -- nobody in modern times has been able to decipher Meroitic beyond reading a few names of kings and places.
Until someone finds the equivalent of the Rosetta Stone, containing identical passages in Meroitic and a known language, it likely will remain a mystery.
Thus, although hundreds of documents in Meroitic have been found, no one can read what must be detailed accounts of lives and times in one of the least known of the world's great, ancient civilizations.
CAPTION: TO LEARN MORE "Ancient Nubia: Egypt's Rival in Africa" is a temporary exhibition that opens May 24 at the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of African Art and closes Sept. 4. The museum is on the Mall near the Castle.
"The Ancient Nubian City of Kerma, 2500 - 1500 B.C." opens at the same museum July 26 and will stay for three years.
The museum plans numerous related educational programs. Here is a sampling. For more information, call 202-357-4600, ext. 221. "Sounds of the Nile: Music of the {modern} Nubian Peoples," 2 p.m., Sunday, May 28 in the Ripley Center Lecture Hall.
"Shawabtis, Scarabs and Amulets," a workshop for young audiences. 10:15 a.m., Saturday, June 3 at the Museum of African Art.
"Let's Read About Africa: Books About Ancient Nubia and Egypt," a family program. 3 p.m., Saturday, June 10 at the Museum of African Art. Later listings will appear in the next Horizon, June 14.
CAPTION: A Nubian Chronology
3500 BC The first known hint of an advanced Nubian culture, called A-group, arises along the Nile River in what now is Sudan, just south of ancient Egypt. Nubians live in small farming villages, make pottery in various shapes and colors. Wealthy are buried with pots and gold jewelry.
3100 BC Stone incense burner, found at Qustul, shows a man wearing a crown like that of an Egyptian king. A few experts say it means that the monarchy originated in Nubia and spread to Egypt. Most say that Nubia was still too small to have a king and that the artistic style was copied from Egypt. Egyptians and Nubians trade frequently, the Nubians selling such valuables as gold, ivory, incense and ebony.
2900 BC A-group disappears abruptly, depopulating northern Nubia. Experts think that Egyptian attacks drove them out.
2600 BC Egyptian pharaoh Sneferu attacks central Nubia, takes 7,000 prisoners and 200,000 domesticated animals back to Egypt.
2400 BC Central Nubia is an independent state with a king, probably residing at Kerma. Nubians resettle northern Nubia. Despite occasional hostilities with Egypt, the usual pattern is Nubians and Egyptians at peace and active trading partners. Nubians raise large herds of livestock and bury their leaders in distinctive, dome-shaped tombs, clearly not influenced by Egyptian tradition.
2000 BC Egyptians attack northern Nubia again, apparently to gain control of gold mines in Nubia's eastern desert. Egyptians build massive fortifications, many of which still stand, to defend against what must have been a powerful Nubian state. Meanwhile, 170 miles south of the Egyptian forts in central Nubia, the powerful Kingdom of Kerma, known to Egypt and much of the ancient world as the Kingdom of Kush, flourishes, growing in size and complexity.
1700 BC Kerma/Kush continues to grow luxuriantly, reaching a high point of development. Kushites develop additional towns and raise wheat, barley, cattle and goats. One king is buried in a huge domed tomb on a gold-covered bed with fabulous objects of bronze, ivory and faience. About 400 servants and concubines are buried with him. Meanwhile, as Egypt is wracked by internal troubles and retreats from northern Nubia, Kush extends its authority northward.
1550 BC Egypt again attacks, occupies northern Nubia, treats the area as a province and includes Nubian officials in the government. Conquest of central Nubia, however, requires another century of battle. Kush loses independence about 1400 B.C.
1400 B.C. City of Napata develops as a major Nubian center under Egyptian occupation. Egyptian cultural influence is strong in Nubia, and many Nubians adopt Egyptian ways, blending them with ancient Nubian traditions. About 1355 B.C., a Nubian princess and her entourage visit Pharaoh Tutankhamun (scene depicted on front page).
1070 BC Egypt withdraws from Nubia, which rapidly reverts to being an independent state.
750 B.C. Egypt fragments into a dozen independent states. Nubia conquers all of Egypt, unifying the ancient state with its own in the largest empire yet along the Nile. Nubian kings become Egypt's 25th Dynasty pharoahs, revitalizing Egyptian culture and initiating a tradition of royal pyramid building in Nubia.
670 BC Nubians give up Egypt, retreating south for unknown reasons, though perhaps because Assyrians were trying to invade Egypt. Napata is the urban center of a still-unified Nubia. Egyptian motifs in art and architecture become prominent in Nubian culture.
250 BC The capital is moved from Napata south to Meroe, center of a vibrant reflowering of Nubian civilization. Art and architecture flourish. Among Meroe's greatest achievements is invention of an alphabetic form of writing. Meroites develop an iron industry, refining the metal from ore in furnaces that can heat to 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit. Meanwhile, Egypt declines, dominated by Greeks, then Romans. Ironically, major Egyptian traditions are maintained in Nubia, including pyramid-building on a wide scale.
250 A.D.-400 A.D. The Kingdom of Meroe slowly fades, for reasons not understood. Its great cities and monuments are allowed to crumble. After 500 A.D., Nubians adopt Christianity. About 1,000 years later, they convert to Islam.
CAPTION: A procession of Bronze Age Nubian nobles, including a princess on a chariot, bring gifts to Egyptian pharaoh Tutankhamen in about 1355 B.C. The visit was commemorated in an Egyptian tomb painting. This is a painted copy of the original in Thebes.
CAPTION: The fertile Nile valley has given rise to a shifting pattern of ancient civilizations. In the north Egypt is the oldest. To the south, the first Nubian state arose at Kerma, followed later by Meroe, or Napata.
CAPTION: Bronze cauldron and bowl from Karanog, Meroitic period.
CAPTION: Jar from the Meroitic period.
CAPTION: Wine jar from Meroitic city of Karanog.
CAPTION: Royal cemetery at Meroe.
CAPTION: Entrance to funerary chapel at Meroe.
CAPTION: A royal tomb under construction at Kerma.
CAPTION: Drinking cup from the classic Kerma phase.
The Kingdom of Kush Introduction The kingdom of Kush, and the fascinating civilization it gave rise to, has been overshadowed in the telling of history by its more famous northern neighbor, Ancient Egypt. However, Kush occupies a significant place in world history, and a pivotal role in the history of Africa, as the first literate, city-based civilization south of the Sahara. Egypt’s geographical position, lying in the northern portion of the long valley of the River Nile, meant that it was cut off from the rest of Africa by almost impassable desert to east and west, and by only somewhat less-impassable cataracts to the south. It therefore fell to Kush to mediate the arts of civilization to societies south of the Sahara. Indeed, one of the most fascinating aspects of its civilization is the way that it gradually changed from being little more than a cultural satellite of ancient Egypt, to becoming the first truly African civilization. It thus played a key role in the long history of Sub-Saharan Africa.
The Rise of Ancient Nubian civilization A more detailed survey of the land of Nubia, in which Kush was situated, is given in the article on Ancient and Medieval Nubia. https://www.timemaps.com/encyclopedia/nubia/ Nubia lies immediately south of the land of Egypt. The border between Ancient Nubia and Egypt was marked by the northernmost of six cataracts over which the waters of the river Nile flow (confusingly, this is traditionally called the First Cataract, as the ancient Egyptians numbered these cataracts from north to south). Going southwards from the First to the Third Cataracts, the landscape is similar to that of Egypt, albeit on a smaller scale. It is formed of ribbon of intensively cultivated irrigation-based land along the banks of the Nile, hemmed in on either side by the Sahara desert. This area is called Lower Nubia. South of the Third Cataract the Nile is the tropical zone of central Africa. Here, rain-fed agriculture is possible, allowing farming to take place away from the river. This land is called Upper Nubia, and lies in present-day Sudan.
Prehistory of Nubia From the fourth millennium BCE, the farming population of Lower (i.e. northern) Nubia shared in the economic and cultural advance which, to the north, resulted in the emergence of the sophisticated civilization of Ancient Egypt. While Nubian civilization could not compare with that of Egypt in terms of material culture, it saw villages expand into towns, and boasted royal burials even more splendid than those of the early pharaohs of Egypt. Once Egypt had become unified, its militarily superiority became apparent. During the period of the Old Kingdom of Ancient Egypt, hostilities between the neighboring lands culminated in the occupation of Lower (northern) Nubia by the Egyptians. The Egyptian planted towns and forts between the first and second cataracts. From the early days of Egyptian civilization, Nubia was a major source of commodities such as slaves, gold, ivory, ostrich feathers and ebony. It was to retain this role right up to modern times.
The first kingdom of Kush As the Old Kingdom of Egypt went into decline, the Egyptians withdrew (or were expelled) from Nubia, in around 2500 BCE. Lower Nubia became the base for an independent kingdom. This was known to the Egyptians as Kush. Its capital was Kerma, an impressive and well fortified city just south of the Third Cataract.
Kush at the time of Middle Kingdom Egypt With the reunification of Egypt at the start of its Middle Kingdom (c. 1990 BCE), hostilities between Egypt and Nubia grew, and the Egyptians occupied Nubia up to the Second Cataract. The Egyptian army built forts near the new border, and took direct control over the gold mines of the area.
Kush recovers and survives To the south, the kingdom of Kush survived, and in fact would endure for another 500 years. When Egypt went through a second period of division and weakness (its Second Intermediate Period, 1785-1540 BCE), Kush as able to take over the Egyptian forts and re-occupy the territory up to the First Cataract. Centuries of contact with their more advanced neighbor to the north had led the Kushite elite to adopt many aspects of Egyptian civilization. Their capital, Kerma, had Egyptian-style temples, and the royal palaces were of Egyptian design. Egyptian influences can be seen in Kushite pottery, jewelry, weapons and furniture. Nevertheless, Kushite culture retained indigenous features. Notably, royal burials involved not only the internment of masses of luxury items, as in Egyptian tombs, but also of hundreds of men and women – presumably royal retainers and slaves – who seem to have been buried alive to accompany their dead master.
End of the first kingdom of Kush The re-unification of Egypt under the expansionist New Kingdom pharaohs (c. 1550-c. 1070 BCE) spelt the end of the first kingdom of Kush. Egyptian armies invaded Nubia, burnt Kerma to the ground and gained control of the Nile valley as far south the Fifth Cataract. In the centuries which followed, Nubia effectively became a part of Egypt. It was ruled by an Egyptian viceroy from the new provincial capital, Napata, near the southern border. This was only one amongst several towns in the area which were either set up as Egyptian colonies or were pre-existing settlements now heavily Egyptianized. Over the next five hundred years, the Nubian ruling class adopted the religion, language, writing and other cultural facets of their imperial masters wholesale.
The Kingdom of Kush A second kingdom appears In due course, however, the traditional cycle reasserted itself. The New Kingdom of Egypt went into decline in the 11th century BCE, and the Nubians asserted their independence. A new Kingdom of Kush was established some time around 1000 BCE, with Napata as its capital. By this time, however, the culture of Kush had become thoroughly Egyptianized, and the rulers seem to have regarded themselves as one amongst several regional Egyptian princes who had divided the kingdom of Egypt amongst themselves. The kingdom of Kush was organized along Egyptian lines, and grew steadily in power and influence. Kushite Pharaohs of Egypt When groups of Libyan tribesmen from the western desert pressed in on Egypt, the Kushite king, Piye, posed as the champion of Egyptian civilization and marched north (730 BCE) to defend the country. He succeeded in fending off the invaders, and his successor defeating rival rulers within Egypt, and was left in control of the whole land of Egypt. The Kushite kings ruled Egypt for some sixty years, appearing in Ancient Egypt’s long history as the 25th Dynasty. The kings were, to all intents and purposes, Egyptian pharaohs, wearing the traditional double crown of Upper and Lower Egypt, worshipping the Egyptian gods and patronizing the Egyptian temples. They first ruled from Thebes, in southern Egypt, and later from Memphis, in the north. Kushite rule in Egypt lasted until c. 670 BCE, when Taharqa was defeated by an Assyrian army. He and his court were forced to flee south to Napata, leaving the Assyrians to add Egypt to their huge empire. Efforts by the Kushites to regain their power in Egypt failed, and they established their capital once again at Napata. Though unable to regain Egypt, the kingdom of Kush survived for almost a thousand years more in its Nubian homeland.
Kush as an Egyptianized kingdom Two millennia of close contact, including hundreds of years of actual occupation, had effectively turned Kush into a cultural satellite of Egypt. The Kushite ruling class had absorbed Egyptian language, writing, religion, art and architecture, and other aspects of Egyptian civilization. This process must only have intensified during the time when the Kushite regime ruled Egypt as the 25th dynasty. These influences did not simply evaporated with the expulsion of the Kushites from Egypt. Far from it. The rulers of Kush continued to wear the double-crown of the kings of Upper and Lower Egypt centuries after they has ceased to rule in Egypt. Egyptian remained the official language at the Kushite court, inscriptions were written using Egyptian hieroglyphics, and Egyptian gods were worshipped in Egyptian-style temples. Change, however, was on its way.
The Meroë Period of Nubian Civilization The Rise of Meroë At some point before c. 600 BCE, the kingdom of Kush gained control of territories far to the south, centered on the Island of Meroë. This was an area of land between the fifth and sixth cataracts of the Nile and bounded on two sides by the Nile and Atbara rivers. The “island” rapidly became increasingly important within the kingdom. Ancient writers describe a fertile land full of farming villages. The area was also well-situated for trade. Trade routes to central Africa in the south, Egypt in the north, and eastwards to the Red Sea, passed through. Several towns grew up here, the most important being Meroë itself.
Meroē becomes the capital of Kush Just before 600 BCE a powerful new dynasty of pharaohs came to power in Egypt. In 595 BCE a strong Egyptian force invaded Nubia, as far south as Napata, sacking the city. The Kushite court then relocated south to Meroë, which would be the political capital of the kingdom for the next 800 years. Napata remained the religious center for now; new kings and queens had to go there to receive the formal blessings of the gods.
Kush becomes more African While the Kushite court had remained in Napata, the ruling class probably retained its Egyptian character almost unaltered. For some two centuries after the move, the Egyptianized element seems to have predominated. Under the surface, however, things were changing. Meroë was much further up the Nile, and hence more distant from Egyptian influences. Moreover, it was set in a different kind of country. The territory around Napata was similar to that of Egypt, albeit on a smaller scale. The population was concentrated in a narrow ribbon of intensively cultivated land along the banks of the Nile, hedged in by desert. Meroë, however, lay within the tropical rainfall zone, where rain-fed agriculture is possible and irrigation not essential. This allowed farming – of tropical cereals such sorghum and millet, and later cotton – to be practiced across a wide area, not just near the rivers. In addition, the area was adjacent to extensive grasslands, ideal for semi-nomadic pastoralism, and cattle-grazing played an important part to the economy.
A different kind of society… These conditions gave rise to a society quite distinct from that of Egypt and Lower (northern) Nubia. The population was much more dispersed than further north. Living in mud and reed houses clustered in small villages, the people obeyed local chiefs and clan heads rather than officials representing a strong central authority. The semi-nomadic pastoralists of the grasslands were doubtless even more free from royal authority.
…and a different kind of politics The Kushite kings had a great deal less control over the local chiefs than the pharaohs of Egypt had had over their officials, and as time went by this aristocracy undoubtedly came to be the dominant element at court. Although the kings of Kush continued to claim the same absolute authority as the pharaohs, they had to rule with a measure of consent from the local chiefs. Monarchs were chosen with their agreement, albeit from amongst the members of a single royal family, and were liable to be removed if they lost their support.
The Africanization of Kush At some point the local language of the Meroë area ousted Egyptian as the spoken language of the royal court. This must have occurred by the third century BCE, as at that time the hieroglyphic script of ancient Egypt was adapted to a flowing alphabetic Meroitic script (as yet not understood by modern scholars) in which to write the local language. Indeed, the third century BCE seems to have represented a tipping point in the “Africanization” of the Kushite kingdom. The last royal burial to take place at Napata is dated to 300 BCE, and a new sequence of burials immediately starts in Meroë. This move may have been linked to a political struggle between the old and new centers of power in the kingdom, culminating in a massacre of the priests of the Egyptian gods at Napata. At around the same time, worship of the Lion God, Aperdemek – a deity unknown to the Egyptians comes to the fore. His temple at Musawwarat dates to the third century. In the royal burials at Meroë, African animals such as lions, ostriches, giraffes and elephants are depicted more prominently in paintings and statues, and the high quality ceramics of Meroë, though based on traditional Egyptian designs, are decorated with local motifs. All this indicates the triumph of the local Meroitic aristocracy at court, and of more local “African” traditions. In short, Meroë, being located in a region more typical of the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa than Egypt and Lower Nubia had been, gradually gave rise to a more African-style state. This is shown in the greater power of local aristocrats, a recurrent theme in African kingdoms through history.
Powerful royal women It is also reflected in one notable feature of the political life of the kingdom, the importance of queen mothers. This seems to have reflected a matrilineal line of succession (i.e., through the female line of descent). The son of one of the king’s sisters would be chosen as crown prince, and on his accession his mother would become the Queen Mother (with the title Kandake, which is Latinized to Candace – see below). She seems to have had her own court, supported by its own estates; and if the king was a child, she would rule the kingdom in his place as regent.
The story of the Ethiopian eunuch An interesting episode dating to the first century CE, and which appears in the New Testament of the Christian Bible, tells of one of Jesus’ disciples called Philip meeting an “Ethiopian eunuch”, who was one of the most important officials at the court of Candace, “Queen of the Ethiopians” (Acts 8, 26-27). To the Greeks and Romans, anywhere in Africa south of Egypt was given the label “Ethiopia”; and the term “Candace:, or Kandake, shows a misunderstanding of the word, which actually refers not to an individual but to a title, that of a queen mother. This little passage unwittingly reflects the prominence of some royal women. The fact that an important Nubian official was a Jew (and then was baptized a Christian) shows that Nubia was, to some extent, linked into the Graeco-Roman world of the Middle East.
Nubian Pyramids Egyptian influences were never given up altogether in Kush. Egyptian gods continued to be worshipped alongside the more “African” deities, and one distinctly Egyptian practice endured to the very end of the kingdom. This was the burying of the embalmed bodies of kings and other important persons under pyramids. Prior to their conquest of Egypt, Kushite kings had begun to have themselves buried under pyramids. This was centuries after this practice had been given up in Egypt itself. In Nubia, this was to be an enduring tradition. The first kings to do this were the immediate forebears of king Piye, who conquered Egypt. The last one was buried around 300 CE. Kushite pyramids clearly drew inspiration from Egyptian antecedents, but they had significant differences. For a start, they were far smaller. Secondly, their base was much smaller in relation to their height than were Egyptian pyramids, making their sides much steeper. And finally, most had, in proportion to their size, a much larger portico structure attached to them than Egyptian pyramids had. This probably reflects the greater need for space due to the importance of sacrifice in ancient Nubian religious rites, which was always given more emphasis than in Egyptian ones. Napata was the first center of Nubian pyramid-building, but from c. 300 BCE Meroë became the location for the pyramids.
The Iron Industry of Meroë One of the most notable features of the Meroë period of Nubian history is the development of the iron industry around the city of Meroë itself. Large slag heaps of waste from ancient times still rise above the rail tracks, evidence of the importance of the industry. Ancient iron smelting required not only iron ore, in which the Island of Meroë was rich, but also huge quantities of timber for charcoal. The locality had an abundance of hardwood forests, ideal for this purpose. What made the industry important, however, was the introduction of iron weapons into Middle Eastern armies. Iron had begun being smelted in the Middle East some time in the second millennium BCE, but only became widespread in the region centuries after 1000 BCE. The Assyrian forces which pushed the Kushites out of Egypt had been armed with iron weapons, and the newly-independent Egypt which came to power just before 600 BCE would have needed iron weaponry to put its armies on a level with those of Assyria and its successor, Babylon. Egypt, however, did not have extensive tree cover, and therefore had difficulty smelting iron in sufficient quantity for its own need. Iron would have been a valuable trade item between Nubia and Egypt at this time. Iron weaponry would also have been important in Kush’s own armies, not only in defending their borders from powerful potential enemies to the north (but with whom they had generally good relations – see below) but also in raiding peoples further south, for slaves. Iron was important in agriculture. Iron axes and hoes must have been of great assistance in clearing forest for fields (and providing the timber for iron-making) and for growing crops. Modern historians have stressed the importance of Meroë’s role in passing on iron technology to Sub-Saharan Africa. This view has been modified in recent years by the realization that traditional iron-making techniques vary in different parts of the continent.
Meroë as a center of international trade Expanding markets The traditional exports of Nubia, such as slaves, gold, ivory and ostrich feathers, which the Kushites had monopolized for millennia, found an ever-expanding market in the Middle East and the Mediterranean world. The kings of Kush on the whole maintained good relations with a succession of northern neighbors. In the late sixth century BCE, Egypt, after a brief period as an independent kingdom, came under the rule of the huge Persian Empire, along with most of the Middle East. Then, in the wake of Alexander the Great‘s conquests (late fourth century BCE), she came under the control of a Greek-speaking dynasty, the Ptolemies. The country thus became part of the Hellenistic world, which straddled the whole of the Middle East and eastern Mediterranean. This opened up a large market for luxury goods from the east. The Ptolemies and Kushites soon concluded a trade treaty, to their great mutual benefit. Finally, the Roman Empire took over Egypt (31 BCE). A little later, the Romans attempted a conquest of Kush, invading as far as Napata, which they sacked (23 BCE). However, they soon realized that maintaining trading relations was a lot more advantageous, and signed a treaty which restored normal commercial and diplomatic contacts. In fact it was in the first two centuries CE, when the Pax Romana of the Roman Empire allowed the Roman economy to prosper almost undisturbed, that Kush reached the height of its wealth.
Exports and trade routes In addition, Nubian exports were finding a growing market in India and the East. Under the Persians, trade across the Indian Ocean began to flow up the Red Sea. This sea-borne trade became much more important under the Ptolemaic dynasty of Egypt, and even more so under the Romans. The Kushites were able to gain a share of this market with the export of their traditional exports, which found as ready a market in India as they did in the West.
Wealthy kings The capital city, Meroë was only one amongst several towns in Upper (southern) Nubia. It was in these that traders, craft workers, temple priests and royal officials lived. The royal court was the primary center of wealth and power. The wealth of the kings came mainly from their control of trade. The products of slave raids, hunting and mines were under the direct control of the king – indeed the hunters and raiders formed the nucleus of the standing army. Royal raiding and hunting expeditions roved over a wide area to the south of Meroë in the search for slaves, ivory, ostrich feathers and leopard skins. Elephants were also captured alive, to be trained for used in war – and, when the Ptolemies ruled Egypt, for export for use in the Egyptian army as well.
Kush at its Height The kingdom of Kush reached its peak under king Netekamani (reigned 12 BCE to 12 CE). The kingdom had expanded to take in all the territory between the First Cataract in the north to the foothills of the Ethiopian highlands in the south, and probably from the Red Sea in the east as far west as Darfur, in present-day western Sudan. At home, Netekamani and his successors were noted for adorning their capital with palaces and temples. Economically, the kingdom flourished. In the north, the narrow but fertile ribbon of land along the banks of the Nile benefitted from new crops and from the introduction of the saqia-based irrigation (based on a ox-powered water-wheel). The backbone of the kingdom’s wealth, however, remained in the broad farming region around Meroë, with its sorghum, millet, cotton and cattle.
The Decline and Fall of the Kingdom of Kush The kingdom of Kush seems to have entered a period of decline at some time in the third century CE. A major factor was probably the turbulence which the Roman Empire experienced at this time, which disrupted Kush’s trade. By the time order was restored in the empire, Kush had lost its hold on the Red Sea trade to the new power of Aksum, located to the south-east of Meroë and nearer the coast. Another factor may have been over-exploitation of the land. Some modern scholars have suggested that the iron industry, using a huge amount of wood for charcoal fuel, may have led to a loss of tree cover and had an adverse impact on the fertility of the soil. Whatever the causes, the long history of the kingdom of Kush came to an end in the early 4th century CE. Royal burials ceased in those years, and the city of of Meroë was abandoned. In around 350, the kingdom of Aksum invaded the Island of Meroë and found no city and no kingdom.
Further Study For the later history of Nubia, see the article on Ancient and Medieval Nubia. https://www.timemaps.com/encyclopedia/nubia/ Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
The Fitzwilliam Museum: An African Approach to Egypt Welcome to the Fitzwilliam Museum’s Virtual Kemet Egypt in its African context
The Fitzwilliam Museum
What is an African centred approach to Egypt?
quote:
African Centred Egyptology aims to look at Egypt as part of African culture. People mainly look at Ancient Egypt through a European bias. This is because the majority of books on Egyptology are written by researchers of European, or North-American backgrounds. There are also increasing numbers of Egyptian scholars also publishing in English as well as Arabic. However, there are comparatively few scholars of African origin or descent who work on the subject of Ancient Egypt. Their views, when African Centred, are often and wrongly dismissed by more mainstream Egyptologists.
Historians and archaeologists rarely disclose their cultural identities in the same way that someone working in sociology (the study of society and the people in it) or anthropology (the study of people and cultures) would automatically declare in their books and articles. The reason that some disciplines talk about the identity of the author is because how we view the world can influence how we interpret it. Our views can be influenced by where we grew up, where we received our education and to what extent we have been exposed to other cultures and groups of people.
Where is Egypt and where was Kemet?
What does Kemet mean?
People in Egypt today call their country by the Arabic name of ‘Misr’. The word ‘Egypt’ is the name that the Ancient Greeks gave to the country and is still used in Europe today. Prior to Europe’s involvement with Egypt, the people of Ancient Egypt had many names for their country such as ‘Ta Mery’ (the beloved land), ‘Ta Sety’ (the land of the bow) which was used for the southern most regions of the country and Nubia (see below). Another name was 'Kemet', which means ‘the black land’. All of these names were originally spelt without vowels, so for example Kmt.
The meaning of Kemet has been much debated. The word was spelt with four hieroglyphs: a piece of crocodile skin with spines making the sound K; an owl making the sound M and a half loaf of bread making the sound T. The round symbol represents a crossroads and shows the reader that in this context this is a place name. There are parallels – Sudan for example comes from the Arabic Bilad-al-sudan meaning country of the blacks and Ethiopia derives from the Greek meaning ‘burnt-face’ in reference to the people and their black skin. The word kem means ‘black’. However, people have interpreted the reference to the colour black this in two different ways:
In reference to the colour of the silt of the Nile and so the fertile soil of Egypt In reference to the colour of the people What does Kemet mean?
Today, for obvious reasons, the name Kemet is associated with a more African-centred approach to looking at ‘Egypt’. For this reason the gallery that you are currently viewing is called Virtual Kemet. In adopting this name we hope to remind people that the ‘Ancient Egypt’ is an African civilization and that whilst the culture had contact with people from other civilizations, it was essentially African in its culture and well as its geographical placement.
There are many links between ancient Egyptian and modern African culture, ranging from objects such as headrests to hairstyles such as the side lock, and this and other evidence support the idea that it was an African culture in addition to being geographically in Africa. For these reasons Egypt is seen by people of African descent as part of their cultural heritage and history. The concept of Egypt as part of Africa is not a new one. Some of the earliest travellers to Egypt came from the ancient cultures of Greece and Rome, including Greek philosophers, mathematicians, scientists, writers and poets who came to learn from the priests. To the Greeks and Romans, Egypt was an African country, and their artists depicted the Egyptians as Africans, with black skin and tightly curled hair, described by the Greek historian Herodotos in the fifth century BC as 'woolly'.
Were the people in Ancient Kemet the same groups of people who live Egypt today?
No. Throughout Egypt’s history it had traded and fought with people from other countries. From around 750 BC the Nubian rulers, often called ‘The Kushites’ controlled Kemet and became its Twenty-fifth Dynasty. During this time Kemet enjoyed a renaissance, or return to earlier culture, as indicated by the promotion of the cult of the god Amun and also copies of earlier statues that were made by officials and the rulers.
Later, the population was affected by the immigration of soldiers, traders and settlers from outside cultures, which included two Persian invasions in 525 BC and 343 BC; Macedonian Greeks who ruled Kemet from 332-30 BC; Romans, who took control of Kemet in 30 BC; and the Islamic settlement in AD 642. The Persians ruled Kemet from their own country. The Greek rulers, in contrast, lived in Kemet and adopted Egyptian culture and traditions; however, the language for administration was changed to Greek. The Romans, although absent rulers, had large numbers of their army in Kemet and were keen to promote Egyptian culture, albeit their own version of it. The last hieroglyphic inscription dates to AD 394, after this time Christianity, which had been present in Egypt from the first century AD, gradually became the dominant religion. Early Islamic rulers maintained cultural links with earlier Egypt, as seen by the minaret at the Mosque of Ibn Tulun in Cairo, which is in the form of the famous lighthouse of Alexandria and which dated to the third century BC. The language was changed to Arabic at this time and the religion to Islam.
Were the people in Ancient Kemet the same groups of people who live Egypt today?
Today, many people forget that Egypt is part of the continent of Africa and only think of the modern state of Egypt, which has closer ties to the Islamic world and is often seen by people to be part of the ‘Middle East’. The ‘Middle East’ includes countries such as Syria, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Israel/Palestine, and the Arabian Peninsula.
Where was Nubia and who are the Nubians?
Nubian civilization pre-dates Egyptian. The earliest artefacts that were found in this region date to around 300,000 years ago, possibly earlier. Kemet and Nubia were closely linked from around 6000 years ago. Early pottery indicates that the Nubians were capable of making very thin, high quality bowls and jars from 7000 years ago; these skills were taken to Egypt as people moved northwards.
Nubia was originally called ‘Ta Sety’, the Land of the Bow. The Nubians were skilled warriors, famous also for their wrestling. The word Nubian comes from the Ancient Egyptian word ‘nbt’, meaning gold. The Nubians controlled the gold mines and were often shown in tomb paintings bringing gold as an offering. Geographically, Nubia is defined as the land between Dongola in northern Sudan and Aswan in southern Egypt. This region is home to people who are linked through dialects that belong to a distinct language that connects them linguistically to the Ancient Nubian language, but who are culturally diverse from each other and from the past. Nubians are divided into three main groups: the Danaqla and Mahas in Sudan and the Sikurta around Aswan is Egypt. Nubian, like Ancient Egyptian, belong to the African language family.
Modern Nubian culture was affected by the building of the Aswan dam in the 1960’s. This dam prevented the annual flooding of the river Nile but also meant that a huge lake was formed behind it. This lake flooded many ancient sites and modern Nubian communities. Some temples such as Abu Simbal, Kalabsha and Philae, were moved block by block in order to save them. However, many old Nubian settlements and people’s homes were lost.
Nubian identity has been more widely adopted by the African diaspora, most notably in the US. In Britain an increasing number of members of the Black British community have begun to seek to understand their African heritage and see a connection to Ancient Nubian culture as a means of self-empowerment.
Today, many people forget that Egypt is part of the continent of Africa and only think of the modern state of Egypt, which has closer ties to the Islamic world and is often seen by people to be part of the ‘Middle East’. The ‘Middle East’ includes countries such as Syria, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Israel/Palestine, and the Arabian Peninsula.
Were the Ancient Egyptians Africans? What colour was their skin?
Yes. Egypt is in Africa and there are many cultural links to other African civilisations. If we look at the skin colour and also facial features on representations of Egyptians, many are what we would consider today to be Black African. Skin colours on temple and wall reliefs show ranges between dark brown and black, which is typical of what we see today with regard to people of Black African descent or origin. Furthermore, Nubians, a group who are accepted universally as Black Africans are, like their neighbours from Kemet, shown on reliefs with both jet black and red-brown skin and can be distinguished as Nubians by their short wigs.
Many statues have lost their original skin colour. Sometimes colours were used by the Egyptians symbolically, so for example a statue of a god or royal person would painted gold to represent immortality.
If we leave colour aside for a moment, we can also find out a great deal from looking at the facial features shown on Egyptian statues. Here, there can be no doubt that we are dealing with people who were African. Faces were broad with high cheekbones and the jaws are typically strong. The noses are also broad and the lips are generally full and fleshy in appearance.
How long ago was ‘Ancient Egypt’ or Kemet?
Kemet’s origins were small farming communities who lived in groups throughout the country. We can gage the development of this early culture through the kinds of objects that people were buried with. These objects were sophisticated and included items such as stone vases and some objects or materials that indicate trade with foreign lands. This period is called Pre-Dynastic, because it was before there was a single king and the country was unified. This period started around 4000 BC, which is over 6,000 years ago. Before this time there is evidence of a culture that we call Paleolithic and which dated in Kemet to around 100,000 BC, and which was centred around the southern part of the country. Objects from this phase were mainly in the form of flint tools and weapons.
The first rulers in Kemet lived around 3000 BC, which is 5000 years ago. If we compare Kemet to Greece and Rome we can see that Kemet is much older and developed ideas such as monumental buildings, religious beliefs and writing much earlier than European cultures. We know that many of the famous Greek philosophers, playwrights and mathematicians went to Kemet to learn and study. And we can also see Kemet’s early development through its mud-brick and monumental architecture. Greek civilisation and democracy falls into the so-called Late Period of Kemet, and Rome expanded later still.
Some people would like to see Kemet as an earlier civilisation. The problem with re-dating key monuments such as the sphinx is that everything else needs to be re-dated accordingly and in relation. We date archaeological sites and contexts through pottery, inscriptions and sequences. If you wish to use an alternative chronology, it is essential that you keep this in mind.
When looking at Ancient Kemet it helps to remember that we are Before Christ (B.C.) or Before Common Era. This is any date before Year 0 of our calendar. The year 2009 is A.D., which stands for ‘Anno Domini’, a Latin phrase meaning ‘the Year of our Lord’. Some people find this easier to remember this as ‘After Death’. The term Common Era is also used to refer to anything after Year 0. When working out how many years ago objects were made add the current year to the B.C. date. For example if something dates to 3000 BC you add 3000 + 2009 (the current year) to get 5009 years old. Many dates in Kemet are estimates and so you may find in consulting books that different years are given for rulers.
Who was Cleopatra? Was she African?
In the African-American oral tradition Cleopatra is often said to be an African woman. However, many academics who follow an African centred approach to Kemet ignore her. This is because Cleopatra’s family came to Kemet from Macedonia (region that is now part of northern Greece rather than the modern state with the same name). Her family had lived in Kemet for around 300 years before she was born and had enthusiastically adopted the traditional culture of Kemet and its religion and were proud to be shown as kings and queens of Kemet. Unlike earlier kings of Kemet, the Ptolemies (pronounced ‘Tolemees’) as they were known, usually took only one official wife but had many mistresses and concubines. These relationships often resulted in children who were illegitimate. Cleopatra and her father were born from such relationships and it has been suggested that both her mother and grandmother were native to Kemet and so Africans. This is because of the close ties between the royal family and the native elite in Kemet, and the fact that the Ptolemies had been in Kemet for so long at this time. Statues of Cleopatra suggest that the queen was part African and the Romans referred to her as an Egyptian, not as a Greek.
Why have many Egyptian statues lost their noses? Was this deliberate?
In asking this question many people suggest that the damage occurred to statues in order to hide their African features.
The sphinx at Giza for example is often cited as the subject of target practice for French and British troops occupying Egypt. However, an etching by a Danish artist dating to 1737, before the French and British arrived, shows the monument without its nose. Later sketches show the nose restored, perhaps on account of artistic convention. There is a reference to the sphinx being damaged much earlier, in 1378 AD. The Arab historian al-Maqrizi wrote that a man named Muhammad Sa’im al-Dahr attacked the statue when he saw farmers making offerings in front of it, because this was not acceptable according to his view of Islamic tradition.
In ancient times statues were also often reused in buildings and walls and were damaged as part of this process. Many of the temples in Kemet were damaged by later people of different religions, who were offended by the images of animals as gods. This was because as the traditional religion of Kemet was replaced firstly by Christianity and later by Islam, many of the old temples housed churches, monasteries and mosques. This would suggest that some damage to material from Kemet was deliberate.
Why are there objects from Kemet in the Fitzwilliam Museum?
Objects in British museums came by three different means. Firstly, objects were given to museums, often by private collectors who had lived in Egypt and purchased material there. Secondly some objects were given to the Museum through excavations. When British academics went to Egypt to excavate they were allowed by the authorities to bring object back to Britain for display and learning. This practise ended in 1976 and it is now illegal to bring even samples of pottery out of the country for archaeological research. Finally, the Museum purchased objects, although this is becoming increasingly less common because museums need to be certain that the objects were taken out of Egypt legally and that their history is documented.
The documents here come from the Fitzwilliam Museum’s archives and show a list of objects from excavations at Abydos that were being given to the museum through the Egypt Exploration Fund, and a list of objects bought by the Egyptologist E. Wallis Budge on behalf of the Museum from dealers in Egypt in 1899. Note that the accounts show the price of packing and shipping the objects.
Why are there objects from Kemet in the Fitzwilliam Museum?
When using the Virtual Gallery you can see how objects came into the Museum’s collections because the labels state whether the object was purchased, given, or bequeathed (left in a will). Numbers appear for example as: E.34.1899, which means that an object is part of the Egyptian collection and was the 34th object to be registered in the year 1899. E.GA before an object number (for example E.GA.50.1943 means that the object was part of the Gayer-Anderson Collection and was given to the Museum in 1943. Objects labelled GR come from the Greek and Roman collections and were registered through their culture rather than their country of origin. A small number of objects have other letters such as ‘E.SS.70’, these are some of the earliest objects to come into the Museum’s collections and were not registered by year. E stands for Egypt and SS stands for stone stela (a type of relief).
quote: Kerma was the capital city of the Kerma culture, which was located in present-day Sudan at least 5500 years ago. Kerma is one of the largest archaeological sites in ancient Nubia. It has produced decades of extensive excavations and research, including thousands of graves and tombs and the residential quarters of the main city surrounding the Western/Lower Deffufa.
Around 3000 BC, a cultural tradition began around Kerma. It was a large urban center that was built around a large adobe temple known as the Western Deffufa.
As a capital city and location of royal burials, it sheds light on the complex social structure present in this society.
quote: Upper Nubia The poorly known "pre-Kerma" culture existed in Upper (Southern) Nubia on a stretch of fertile farmland just south of the Third Cataract.
Lower Nubia Nubia has one of the oldest civilizations in the world. This history is often intertwined with Egypt to the north. Around 3500 BC, the second "Nubian" culture, termed the Early A-Group, arose in Lower (Northern) Nubia. They were sedentary agriculturalists, traded with the Egyptians, and exported gold. This trade is supported archaeologically by large amounts of Egyptian commodities deposited in the A-Group graves. The imports consisted of gold objects, copper tools, faience amulets and beads, seals, slate palettes, stone vessels, and a variety of pots. During this time, the Nubians began creating distinctive black topped, red pottery.
Pre-Kerma; A-Group (3500-3000 BC)
quote: Upper Nubia
The poorly known "pre-Kerma" culture existed in Upper (Southern) Nubia on a stretch of fertile farmland just south of the Third Cataract.
Lower Nubia Nubia has one of the oldest civilizations in the world. This history is often intertwined with Egypt to the north. Around 3500 BC, the second "Nubian" culture, termed the Early A-Group, arose in Lower (Northern) Nubia. They were sedentary agriculturalists,traded with the Egyptians, and exported gold. This trade is supported archaeologically by large amounts of Egyptian commodities deposited in the A-Group graves. The imports consisted of gold objects, copper tools, faience amulets and beads, seals, slate palettes, stone vessels, and a variety of pots. During this time, the Nubians began creating distinctive black topped, red pottery.
Around 3100 BC the A-group transitioned from the Early to Classical phases. "Arguably royal burials are known only at Qustul and possibly Sayala. During this period, the wealth of A-group kings rivaled Egyptian kings. Royal A-group graves contained gold and richly decorated pottery. Some scholars believe Nubian A-Group rulers and early Egyptian pharaohs used related royal symbols; similarities in A-Group Nubia and Upper Egypt rock art support this position. Scholars from the University of Chicago Oriental Institute excavated at Qustul (near Abu Simbel – Modern Sudan), in 1960–64, and found artifacts which incorporated images associated with Egyptian pharaohs. Archeologist Bruce Williams studied the artifacts and concluded that "Egypt and Nubia A-Group culture shared the same official culture", "participated in the most complex dynastic developments", and "Nubia and Egypt were both part of the great East African substratum". Williams also wrote that Qustul "could well have been the seat of Egypt's founding dynasty". David O'Connor wrote that the Qustul incense burner provides evidence that the A-group Nubian culture in Qustul marked the "pivotal change" from predynastic to dynastic "Egyptian monumental art". However, "most scholars do not agree with this hypothesis", as more recent finds in Egypt indicate that this iconography originated in Egypt instead of Nubia, and that the Qustul rulers adopted or emulated the symbols of Egyptian pharaohs.
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
Kush and Egyptology
quote: On account of the Kingdom of Kush's proximity to Ancient Egypt — the first cataract at Elephantine usually being considered the traditional border between the two polities — and because the 25th dynasty ruled over both states in the eighth century BC, from the Rift Valley to the Taurus mountains, historians have closely associated the study of Kush with Egyptology, in keeping with the general assumption that the complex sociopolitical development of Egypt's neighbors can be understood in terms of Egyptian models.[citation needed] As a result, the political structure and organization of Kush as an independent ancient state has not received as thorough attention from scholars, and there remains much ambiguity especially surrounding the earliest periods of the state.[citation needed] Edwards has suggested that the study of the region could benefit from increased recognition of Kush as a state in its own right, with distinct cultural conditions, rather than merely as a secondary state on the periphery of Egypt.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Getting back to the topic...
“Based on the anatomical age of Shep-en-Isis and the decoration of the inner sarcophagus, she must have been born around 650 BC and died between 620 and 610 BC,” said Egyptologist Michael Habicht from the University of Zurich.
The inscriptions on her coffin testified that she belonged to a wealthy upper-class family and came from the family of the high priests of Amun (the highest title among the priests of the ancient Egyptian god Amun) in Thebes. Judging by her family background, she probably received an education. However, many years of research did not allow to establish the identity and profession of her husband, as well as whether she had children.
The above woman does NOT look like a modern Theban let alone an ancient one.
Yes, this aspect of the history of the Nile is constantly glossed over by many talking of this era. But the position of 'Divine Wife/Adoratrice of Amun' was always an institution of Southerners reinforcing the idea of Southern rule of the Nile Valley kingdom of Kemet. It was through this institution that balance in the country was restored in the late periods of the Ramessid dynasty in the 20th dynasty and 21st dynasty before being interrupted by the 22nd to 24th dynasties which were based in the North of the country. And this is how the Kushites claimed power in Kemet without warfare.
quote: While Kashta ruled Nubia from Napata, which is 400 km north of Khartoum, the modern capital of Sudan, he also exercised a strong degree of control over Upper Egypt by managing to install his daughter, Amenirdis I, as the presumptive God's Wife of Amun in Thebes in line to succeed the serving Divine Adoratrice of Amun, Shepenupet I, Osorkon III's daughter. This development was "the key moment in the process of the extension of Kushite power over Egyptian territories" under Kashta's rule since it officially legitimized the Kushite takeover of the Thebaid region.[6] The Hungarian Kushite scholar, László Török, notes that there were probably already Kushite garrisons stationed in Thebes itself during Kashta's reign both to protect this king's authority over Upper Egypt and to thwart a possible future invasion of this region from Lower Egypt.
Török observes that Kashta's appearance as King of Upper and Lower Egypt and peaceful takeover of Upper Egypt is suggested both "by the fact that the descendants of Osorkon III, Takelot III and Rudamun continued to enjoy a high social status in Thebes in the second half of the 8th and in the first half of the 7th century" [BCE] as is shown by their burials in this city as well as the joint activity between the Divine Adoratrice Shepenupet I and the god's Wife of Amun Elect Amenirdis I, Kashta's daughter. A stela from Kashta's reign has been found in Elephantine (modern day Aswan)--at the local temple dedicated to the god Khnum—which attests to his control of this region. It bears his royal name or prenomen: Nimaatre. Egyptologists today believe that either he or more likely Piye was the Year 12 Nubian king mentioned in a well-known inscription at Wadi Gasus which associates the Adopted god's Adoratice of Amun, Amenirdis, Kashta's daughter together with Year 19 of the serving God's Wife of Amun, Shepenupet. Kashta's reign length is unknown. Some sources credit Kashta as the founder of the 25th dynasty since he was the first Kushite king known to have expanded his kingdom's influence into Upper Egypt. Under Kashta's reign, the native Kushite population of his kingdom, situated between the third and fourth Cataracts of the Nile, became rapidly 'Egyptianized' and adopted Egyptian traditions, religion and culture.Kashta's successor was Piye.
quote: At the end of the New Kingdom, the Twentieth Dynasty priesthood of Amun is for a large part dominated by Ramessesnakht. His son, Amenhotep, eventually succeeded his father and found himself in conflict with the Viceroy of Kush, Pinehesy. Pinehesy took his troops north and besieged Thebes. After this period, generals by the name of Herihor and Piankh served as High Priest.
By the time Herihor was proclaimed as the first ruling High Priest of Amun in 1080 BC—in the 19th Year of Ramesses XI—the Amun priesthood exercised an effective stranglehold on Egypt's economy. The Amun priests owned two-thirds of all the temple lands in Egypt and 90 percent of her ships plus many other resources.[6] Consequently, the Amun priests were as powerful as Pharaoh, if not more so. The High Priests of Amun were of such power and influence that they were effectively the rulers of Upper Egypt from 1080 to c. 943 BC, after which their influence declined. They are however not regarded as a ruling dynasty with pharaonic prerogatives, and after this period the influence of the Amun priesthood declined. One of the sons of the High Priest Pinedjem I would eventually assume the throne and rule Egypt for almost half a century as pharaoh Psusennes I, while the Theban High Priest Psusennes III would take the throne as king Psusennes II, the final ruler of the Twenty-first Dynasty of Egypt.
quote: The title, God's Wife of Amun, was revived during the Twentieth Dynasty, when Ramesses VI (1145–1137 BC) conferred this office as well as the additional title of Divine Adoratrice of Amun on his daughter, Iset; the king's actions inaugurated the tradition where every subsequent holder of this office had to be "a king's daughter, and was expected to remain an unmarried virgin. In order to assist [in] the royal succession, she would adopt the daughter of the next king as her heiress."
The office of the God's Wife of Amun reached the very heights of its political power during the late Third Intermediate Period, when Shepenupet I, Osorkon III's daughter, was first appointed to this post at Thebes. The Nubian king Kashta, in turn, appointed his daughter, Amenirdis, as her successor. The high status of this office is illustrated by the tomb of Amenirdis at Medinet Habu.
Later, during the Saite Twenty-sixth Dynasty, Psamtik I would forcibly reunite Egypt in March 656 BC under his rule and compel the God's Wife of Amun serving at the time, Shepenupet II, daughter of Piye, to adopt his daughter Nitocris as her chosen successor to this position.
The office continued in existence until 525 BC under Nitocris' successor, Ankhnesneferibre, when the Persian Empire overthrew Egypt's last Saite ruler, Psamtik III (526–525 BC), and enslaved his daughter. Thereafter, the powerful office of God's Wife of Amun disappears from history.
But according to this reconstruction this woman looked nothing like someone of Southern indigenous African origin. Even though most of the statues, mummies and other artifacts from this era are distinctly African.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Well, the Amun priesthood had been in Meshwesh hands for three dynasties before the Kush one and the dynasty after their's were virulent Kush haters.
Iirc there're AE docs detailing Kush takeover of the Amun priesthood in Egypt. Afaik Karomama, during the XXII° Dynasty, was the first Meshwesh Divine Adoratress of Amon.
Precisions please.
In any event I do not trust or aver reconstructions not developed using double blind principles nor that display emotion and expression from a dead person's skull. What, did she die with some female version of Angel Lust?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Well, the Amun priesthood had been in Meshwesh hands for three dynasties before the Kush one and the dynasty after their's were virulent Kush haters.
Iirc there're AE docs detailing Kush takeover of the Amun priesthood in Egypt. Afaik Karomama, during the XXII° Dynasty, was the first Meshwesh Divine Adoratress of Amon.
Precisions please.
In any event I do not trust or aver reconstructions not developed using double blind principles nor that display emotion and expression from a dead person's skull. What, did she die with some female version of Angel Lust?
The 21st to 25th dynasties are called the Third Intermediate period and one aspect of that period was the rise of the Amun priesthood from the late Ramessid era leading into the 21st dynasty. This is why the role of the Divine Adoratrice of Amun came to the forefront as the sign of legitimacy in the Kingdom, which was tied to the power and legitimacy of the Amun priesthood itself which was also tied to the Kings son of Kush. However, the 22nd to 24th dynasties were somewhat overlapped and associated with various Meshwesh kings and their wives which caused some fragmentation in the country. And ultimately this is how the 25th dynasty came to power through their use of the Amun priesthood. That is precise sequence of events and how it affected the political landscape are what is often overlooked in all of this.
In general it was Southerners who caused the end of the Ramessid dynasty as some speculate due to perceived weaknesses of the throne. Some would argue it was due to overall weaknesses in the state in general, likely due to various factors, leading to greater foreign influence. And the rise of the Kushite dynasty was simply the last of a chain of events tied to that fractured landscape. And ultimately foreigners both Kushite and Levantine did come to rule the land. And this mummy was from within that 26th dynasty period.
Of course she 'could' have been light skinned but the history of this era does not suggest that the Theban region was overrun with foreign blood or light skinned populations of mixed ancestry. Technically in this era, the "Theban region" extended past Aswan, which meant there was still large flows of people from the South, not including Kush proper.
quote: While the Twenty-third Dynasty is considered a Tanite dynasty, as in originating from the city Tanis, it never reigned from there. The Twenty-second Dynasty, coming from Bubastis, took over Tanis and Memphis and managed to retain these cities almost until the end of their Dynasty. As a result, the Twenty-third Dynasty, being more or less an offshoot of the Twenty-second Dynasty, originated from Tanis. Instead, as mentioned above, most historians argue that they used Leontopolis as their capital. This is confirmed by Piankhy's stela, which locates Iuput II in Leontopolis. However, some historians argue that Iuput II should not be considered a Twenty-third Dynasty king at all, as it has not been undoubtedly proven that the Twenty-third Dynasty ruled from Leontopolis, merely that Iuput II ruled from somewhere in the Delta. And if Iuput II is the only connection between the Twenty-third Dynasty and Leontopolis, this viewpoint would eliminate Piankhy's stela as proof for Leontopolis being the capital of the Twenty-third Dynasty.
Another reason why there is much debate is because next to the conflicts between Lower and Upper Egypt that existed, there were now also conflicts in the Delta itself. Part of these conflicts were succession struggles, but another part of it were High Priests of Amun at Thebes, who for a period during the Twenty-first Dynasty effectively ruled Upper Egypt, despite not being regarded as a separate dynasty (however, some did become pharaoh as part of a dynasty, like Psusennes I). Although their power declined after the Twenty-first Dynasty, the High Priests of Amun remained powerful and influential people, and marriages into the royal family were not unusual.[4] As a result, multiple reigns within the Twenty-third Dynasty as well as between the Twenty-second and Twenty-third Dynasties overlap. This is because some members of the Twenty-third Dynasty reigned as independent kings (like Harsiese A), and as a separate dynasty after Osorkon II’s (of the Twenty-second Dynasty) death. Some historians argue that the Twenty-third Dynasty started with Takelot II, and consider Pedubastis I as a separate independent (and short lived) part of that Dynasty. Others consider Takelot II's line as a separate independent part of the Twenty-second Dynasty, and consider Pedubastis I's short lived line as the Twenty-third Dynasty.
When Osorkon II died, crown prince Shoshenq had already died, so his younger brother, Takelot II, took the throne at Tanis. High priest of Amun at that moment in time was Nimlot, Takelot II's half-brother. Nimlot was appointed by Osorkon II, and Nimlot married his own daughter, Karomama Merytmut II, to Takelot II. As a result, Nimlot would be grandfather of any children, and thus heirs to the throne, Takelot II would get. When Nimlot died in the eleventh year of Takelot II, a fight for his succession broke out. Takelot II chose prince Osorkon, but Harsiese, grandson of the chief priest, did not agree. Thebes revolted at his hand, but prince Osorkon managed to crush the revolt.
This relative peace lasted four years, as in Takelot II's fifteenth year a civil war broke out. This conflict lasted for almost ten years, and after another two years of relative peace, the Thebans once again revolted. Takelot II died before this new conflict was resolved, and with prince Osorkon far from Tanis, his younger brother Shoshenq III seized power. While this helped in resolving the conflict with Thebes, because they accepted Shoshenq III as king, a new conflict started. Instead of a conflict between royal families, this was from within the royal family. Prince Pedubastis proclaimed himself king, and reigned from Leontopolis, simultaneously with Shoshenq III.
While prince Osorkon did get usurped by his brother Shoshenq III, Shoshenq did reappoint him as chief priest of Amun. Because Harsiese, the one from the Theban revolt mentioned before, disappeared in the twenty-ninth year of Shoshenq III's reign, prince Osorkon effectively controlled Upper Egypt for about a decade as chief priest of Amun. Meanwhile, Shoshenq III was and remained more powerful than the kings in Leontopolis. By this time, Pedubastis and his son Iuput, who he had appointed as co-regent, had already died, seemingly in the same year (804 BC). Shoshenq VI had succeeded Pedubastis, but not for long as prince Osorkon succeeded him six years later as Osorkon III, reigning simultaneously with Shoshenq III for the last years of his reign.
At Herakleopolis a Twenty-second Dynasty king was still in power in the name of Shoshenq V around 766 BC. However, Osorkon III installed his eldest son Takelot there, also allowing him to be chief priest of Amun at the same time. As a result, the Twenty-second Dynasty's role in the Theban area was greatly reduced. When Osorkon III died, Takelot had already co-reigned with his father, and was thus now sole ruler.
Takelot III had given up his role as chief priest when he became pharaoh, and his sister, Shepenwepet I, seems to have taken over that role, as well as being appointed as Divine Adoratrice of Amun. As a result, she effectively ruled over the Theban region together with her brother. Takelot III also gave up his rule of Herakleopolis, to Peftjauawhybastet, who was married to a daughter of Rudamon, Takelot's brother. Rudamon succeeded Takelot III, but shortly after was already succeeded by Iuput II (also known as Ini/Iny). Under his reign the region became more divided again, as Peftjauawybastet and Nimlot, governor of Hermopolis, adopted royal titles. Rudamon and Iuput II only reigned over Thebes in the final phase of the Twenty-third Dynasty, as Piankhy, king of Napata, put an end to the so-called ‘Libyan anarchy’.
quote: With this in mind, it is important to note that the Third Intermediate Period has long been regarded as a kind of epilogue to Egyptian history and an even darker age of chaos and collapse than the earlier intermediate periods. None of the intermediate periods of Egypt were as chaotic as early Egyptologists (and even later ones) interpreted them. The views of these early scholars were very much influenced by their times and the form of government they recognized as legitimate. Strong central rule was interpreted as good while disunity was seen as perilous. In reality, all three of the intermediate periods maintained a continuity of culture without a unifying central government and each added their own contributions to Egypt's history.
The difference between the first two and the last is that, following the Third Intermediate Period, Egypt did not rise again to continue on to greater heights. In the latter part of the 22nd Dynasty, Egypt was divided by civil war, and by the time of the 23rd, the country was divided between self-styled monarchs who ruled from Herakleopolis, Tanis, Hermopolis, Thebes, Memphis, and Sais. This division made a united defense of the country impossible and the Nubians invaded from the south.
The 24th and 25th dynasties saw unification under Nubian rule, but the country was not strong enough to resist the advance of the Assyrians first under Esarhaddon (681-669 BCE) in 671/670 BCE and then by Ashurbanipal (668-627 BCE) in 666 BCE. Although the Assyrians were driven from the country, Egypt did not have the resources to repel other invaders. The Persian invasion of 525 BCE ended Egyptian autonomy until the rise of the 28th Dynasty of Amyrtaeus (c.404-398 BCE) in the Late Period freed Lower Egypt from Persian domination.
Interestingly enough the Assyrian invasion did not end the role of the Amun priesthood or divine adoratrice of Amun. Keeping in mind that the whole point of this position in the cosmology was tied to the traditions of the Upper Nile as the origin of the culture and dynasties that maintained the stability of the kingdom. You could say Amun and the God's Wife or Divine Adoratrice of Amun represented the divine 'bloodline' of the pharaoh.
This mummy would have been a part of the Amun temple during the 26th dynasty under Nitocris I.
quote: On learning of these events, Ashurbanipal aided by Necho's son, Psamtik I and his Carian mercenaries, returned to Egypt with a large army and comprehensively defeated the Kushites near Memphis. The army then proceeded south to Thebes, which quickly fell as Tantamani had already fled to Lower Nubia. According to Assyrian texts, the city was thoroughly sacked, its inhabitants were deported and much booty taken back to Assyria, including two large obelisks. to the contrary, the archaeological evidence from Thebes shows no signs of destruction, plunder or major changes. The evidence shows more signs of continuity than of disruption: all the officials that were in office before the alleged sack of Thebes were still in office afterwards and the development of tombs on the western bank of Thebes continued without interruption. In the publications of Diethelm Eigner or Julia Budka, the Assyrian sack of Thebes is not archaeologically detected.
The sack of Thebes was a major event in the history of the city and of ancient Egypt in general. It effectively marks the end of the 25th Dynasty of Egypt as Tantamani lost his main foothold in Egypt. The Kushites were permanently expelled within a decade of the fall of Thebes as none of Tantamani's successors would ever manage to retake territories north of Elephantine. Durably weakened, Thebes peacefully submitted itself less than six years after the sack to a large fleet sent by Psamtik to control Upper Egypt as he freed himself from the Assyrian vassalage. The sack thus permitted the rise of the Twenty-sixth Dynasty, the end of the Third Intermediate Period and the beginning of the Late Period. The sack seems to have reverberated more generally throughout the Ancient Near East, it is notably mentioned in the Book of Nahum as an example of the destruction and horror that can befall a city.
quote: Nitocris I (alt. Nitiqret, Nitokris I) (died 585 BC) served as the heir to, and then, as the Divine Adoratrice of Amun or God's Wife of Amun for a period of more than seventy years, between 655 BC and 585 BC.
She was the daughter of the 26th Dynasty pharaoh, Psamtik I, by his queen Mehytenweskhet. Early in his reign, in March 656 BC, Psamtik I dispatched a powerful naval fleet to Thebes and compelled the then serving God's Wife of Amun, Shepenupet II, a daughter of Piye, to adopt Nitocris as her heir to this powerful office. The ceremony of the adoption and elevation of Nitocris I is commemorated in the well known Adoption Stela. It is not known at what date she assumed the office of Divine Adoratrice of Amun, but she served in this position until Year 4 of Apries in 585 BC. Prior to her career in this office, the Assyrians had invaded Egypt in 671 BC, sacked Thebes, and robbed its temples of their many treasures. The reunification of Egypt by her father was facilitated by her rise.
When she was in her eighties, she adopted her great-niece Ankhnesneferibre,[3] the daughter of Psamtik II, continuing the succession in her family line.
.... Shepenupet II and Amenirdis II were the last vestiges of the vanished 25th Dynasty, yet they held this highest position of power in the south and practically controlled the entirety of Upper Egypt. Psamtik I chose not to remove the God's Wife in charge forcefully – an action that would be unpopular – but to make her adopt his daughter as her successor, thus ensuring the future control of Upper Egypt, as well as receiving a considerable number of properties and other goods: beyond the “facade” of the adoption of Nitocris, the stela de facto reports the reunification of Upper and Lower Egypt under the aegis of Psamtik.
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