This mummy was found in Africa thousands of miles from Switzerland but of course they defaulted to depicting her like some European. And no all of these people weren't bald.
Details:
quote: “Based on the anatomical age of Shep-en-Isis and the decoration of the inner sarcophagus, she must have been born around 650 BC and died between 620 and 610 BC,” said Egyptologist Michael Habicht from the University of Zurich.
The inscriptions on her coffin testified that she belonged to a wealthy upper-class family and came from the family of the high priests of Amun (the highest title among the priests of the ancient Egyptian god Amun) in Thebes. Judging by her family background, she probably received an education. However, many years of research did not allow to establish the identity and profession of her husband, as well as whether she had children.
In the late period, from the 20th Dynasty onward, the basis of legitimacy to the throne was based on the institution divine adoratrice of Amun. This institution was associated with Upper Egypt and Gebel Barkal in Sudan. As a result of the chaos in the 20th to 21st Dynasties, various priests of Amun were defacto rulers of the country and used their wives or daughters as stewards of royal legitimacy. This is how the 25th dynasty came to power.
quote: God's Wife of Amun, a title for a similar office of the high priestess, originated as a title held by a daughter of the High Priest of Amun during the reign of Hatshepsut and continued as an important office while the capital of Egypt remained in Thebes.
Later, the added title Divine Adoratrice of Amun can be seen to accompany a resurgence of the title God's Wife of Amun, which had fallen into disuse. The God's Wife title was revived during the Twentieth Dynasty, when Ramesses VI's daughter Iset held the office, as well as the additional office of Divine Adoratrice. He reigned from 1145 to 1137 BC. She never married and seems to have been the first of the celibate holders of the office of Divine Adoratrice of Amun, as he stipulated along with the new tradition that she would adopt the daughter of the succeeding pharaoh as her successor at the end of his reign in order to facilitate the transition to the next pharaoh. Generally, the tradition was followed and the position was filled by the daughter of the current king, who was adopted as the daughter of the incumbent Divine Adoratrice.
The new office reached the very heights of its political power during the late Third Intermediate Period of Egypt when Shepenupet I, Osorkon III's daughter, was first appointed to this post at Thebes. The Nubian king Kashta, in turn, appointed his daughter, Amenirdis, as her successor. The high status of this office is illustrated by the tomb of Amenirdis at Medinet Habu.
Toward the end of the Third Intermediate Perion the Napatan kings from Kingdom of Kush, who reigned as the Twenty-fifth Dynasty of Egypt, spread their realm into Upper Egypt. The reigning God's Wife of Amun, Shepenupet I, was persuaded to adopt Amenirdis, the daughter of Pharaoh Kashta of Kush as her heir. This sequence was followed throughout the 25th Dynasty until Egypt was conquered by the Saite king Psamtik I, who founded the Twenty-sixth Dynasty, who had his daughter, Nitocris I, adopted by Amenirdis II. The Adoption Stela of Nitocris shows the ceremony involved by this event, and the prestige of the role.
The 26th dynasty came to power as vassals of the Assyrians who installed multiple rulers in the delta who shared power.
quote: In 671 BCE, the Assyrian king Esarhaddon invaded Egypt. This invasion was directed against the Kushite rulers who had been in control of Upper Egypt rather than against the native Egyptian rulers; the Assyrians created an administration depending on Egyptians, left alone the twelve kinglets who formed a Dodecarchy ruling over the Nile Delta, and formed alliances with the ruler of the city of Sais, Necho I, who was the most powerful of the Delta kinglets, as well as with Pakruru, the ruler of the important nome of Per-Sopdu.
In 665 BCE, the Kushite king Tantamani invaded Lower Egypt again, and Necho I and Pakruru resisted the Kushite attack. Necho I died in battle and his son Psamtik I fled to Syria, while Pakruru became the spokesperson of the Delta kinglets during the peace negotiations with Tantamani at Memphis.
However the main power centers of the Nile were in Thebes and Luxor and the main priests of Anum, such as briefly continued this practice ending with Nitocris I, daughter of Psammtik, who was adopted by Shepenupet II.
quote: In Psamtik I's 9th regnal year, in 656 BCE, he sent an expedition to the city of Thebes which compelled the existing God's Wife of Amun, Shepenupet II, daughter of the former Kushite Pharaoh Piye, to adopt his daughter Nitocris I as her heiress in the so-called Adoption Stela. This was concluded with the approval of the Theban aristocracy and the tacit support of Mentuemhat, who was the Fourth Priest of Amun and the Mayor of Thebes. Psamtik I had unified all of Egypt under his rule.
Therefore the priests of Amun at this time were still associated with the South at Luxor, Thebes and further South. It wouldn't make sense for such a priestess to be European/Eurasian looking. It is possible but unlikely.
quote: Shepenupet II and Amenirdis II were the last vestiges of the vanished 25th Dynasty, yet they held this highest position of power in the south and practically controlled the entirety of Upper Egypt. Psamtik I chose not to remove the God's Wife in charge forcefully – an action that would be unpopular – but to make her adopt his daughter as her successor, thus ensuring the future control of Upper Egypt, as well as receiving a considerable number of properties and other goods: beyond the "facade" of the adoption of Nitocris, the stela de facto reports the reunification of Upper and Lower Egypt under the aegis of Psamtik.
Note that Mentuemhat is named after the God Montu similar to the Middle Kingdom kings like Mentuhotep, again also associated with the South.
quote: Mentuemhet was a rich and powerful mayor and priest of Thebes and Governor of Upper Egypt who rebuilt the city after the Assyrians destroyed it. Mentuemhet’s power over Thebes likely is what inspired him to portray himself as a pharaoh in his statuary, like he was king of Egypt—and in the case of Upper Egypt, he de facto was. The Egyptian kings needed to appear as both a ruler and a god and were charged with maintaining stability within the kingdom. Thus Egyptian kings were almost always portrayed as cool and calm, like the Nile, and so Mentuemhet adopted such a motif into his own portraiture. All of Mentuemhet's statues were done in the style of the Old Kingdom of Egypt
The last woman to hold the position Divine Adoratice of Amun was Ankhnesneferibre, who dissappeared after the invasion of KMT by the Persians, which was the end of the institution.
quote: In 595 BC, Ankhnesneferibre was dispatched to Thebes to be adopted by the God's Wife of Amun Nitocris I, as a stela from Karnak records.[2][3] Ankhnesneferibre held the position of Divine Adoratrice until Nitocris' death in pharaoh Apries' regnal Year 4 (586 BC),[2] after which she became the new God's Wife.[3] She governed at Thebes for several decades until 525 BC, when the Persian emperor Cambyses II defeated Psamtik III and conquered Egypt, putting an end to the 26th Dynasty and the positions of Divine Adoratrice of Amun and God's Wife of Amun.[2] After this date, Ankhnesneferibre disappeared from history as the last God's Wife, as did her likely successor, the Divine Adoratrice Nitocris II.[3] As with many of her predecessors, Ankhnesneferibre's tomb is located within the temple of Medinet Habu.
Note the hairstyle which was typical of the depictions of women in this period and no these priestesses were not bald.
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posted
european ? Show me a single european woman that looks like her.
And can't you read what they wrote : "Unlike many other facial reconstructions, jewellery, clothing and wigs were not used, as these are hypothetical assumptions. Our reconstruction focuses exclusively on the forensically reconstructed appearance and the anatomical evidence. "
She looks like modern egyptians stop trying to darkwash ancient egyptians.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: european ? Show me a single european woman that looks like her.
And can't you read what they wrote : "Unlike many other facial reconstructions, jewellery, clothing and wigs were not used, as these are hypothetical assumptions. Our reconstruction focuses exclusively on the forensically reconstructed appearance and the anatomical evidence. "
She looks like modern egyptians stop trying to darkwash ancient egyptians.
Again, If Amun was the god of Gebel Barkal and the Priestesses of Amun in the 20th - 25th dynasties were associated with the South into Sudan, how on earth would these people not be dark? You are living in fantasy land totally separate from historical fact. Amun was at this time identified as a god of Sudanese origin (like a great many of them).
Again, this was a priestess of Amun and:
quote: The new office reached the very heights of its political power during the late Third Intermediate Period of Egypt when Shepenupet I, Osorkon III's daughter, was first appointed to this post at Thebes. The Nubian king Kashta, in turn, appointed his daughter, Amenirdis, as her successor. The high status of this office is illustrated by the tomb of Amenirdis at Medinet Habu.
....
Because of the power and prestige of the offices, the ceremony of adoption by the current incumbent of the post was used as a way for the kings of the Delta area to project their power into the south of Egypt. In the same manner, it was used by the Napatan kings to project their power northward into Egypt proper. The power of the Divine Adoratrice of Amun was limited to the area around Thebes in Upper Egypt, which was the center of the cult.
Thebes is now called Luxor and to this day many people from Luxor are very dark. And the power centers of the ancient Dynastic era were always in the South and only in the late period into the Greco Roman period after the 26th dynasty did the power centers move to the North and the Delta. Stop making up nonsense.
quote: The displayed reliefs are from the west wall of Nespekashuty's tomb; along with others from this wall in the Brooklyn Museum, they focus on his funeral. In the lowest register male and female offering bearers advance to the right and these have considerable similarities to offering bearers from Hatshepsut's Temple at Deir el-Bahri. In the second register from left to right, the barge bearing Nespekashuty's coffin and the officiating mortuary priest clad in a leopard skin is being towed across the river to the necropolis on the West Bank, preceded by boats holding gesticulating mourners. The scene is particularly influenced by 18th dynasty tombs, but is also very close in some respects to the parallel scene in the contemporary tomb of Mentuemhat, suggesting a possible relationship of the artistic teams for the two tombs.
The tomb's creators seem to have also felt a particular affinity for the manneristically elongated eyes and brows of the lively Theban 11th dynasty style.
quote: The XXVIth Dynasty is the period to which the northern oasis, as well as those of the south, become a centre of attention and population. The genealogies of the families of the XXVIth Dynasty of Bahariya, carefully established, bring the proof that their forebears were settled there in the XXIIth, or even the XXIth Dynasty. In the XXVIth Dynasty, the possession of the oasis will become a real stake between Egyptians, Libyans, Greeks of Cyrene, and Greek mercenaries engaged under the Egyptian sovereign's banner. Also the monuments of this time testify to the interest shown by the sovereigns of this region, as well as to the agreements made between Egyptians and Libyans. A Libyan family, whose ancestor is Iriawa, held key positions at the oasis in the XXVIth Dynasty. One of his descendants, Djedkhonsuiuefankh, became, in his turn, in the XXVIth Dynasty, governor of the oasis and ensured the local worship of the divinities. He and his family raised most of the known monuments of Bahariya. The oasis of Bahariya was doubtless prosperous at this time, according to four beautiful tombs of the XXVIth Dynasty discovered in Bahariya: the one of Petishtar, Tjaty, Djedimeniouefankh, and Baennetiu. The two first occupied responsibilities in the administration of the oasis; the two last were simple tradesmen. These tombs reveal a particularly successful fusion of culture on behalf of those under which fell the responsibility of the oasis and, probably, of the rest of the population.
posted
What are you talking about ? Amun was not a "sudanese" deity nor was the cult of Amun exclusively performed by nubians. Moreover egyptians can move inside their own country.
The reconstruction I posted is a scientific paper, read the paper and tell me exactly what's wrong with their method if you can't then I don't really care much about your wishes and opinions.
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: What are you talking about ? Amun was not a "sudanese" deity nor was the cult of Amun exclusively performed by nubians. Moreover egyptians can move inside their own country.
The reconstruction I posted is a scientific paper, read the paper and tell me exactly what's wrong with their method if you can't then I don't really care much about your wishes and opinions.
Amun was declared a Sudanese deity in the 18th dynasty. I did not say that the cult was exclusively performed by Nubians. I said the center of the cult was in the South around Luxor and extended into Sudan. You are again making up nonsense. The ancient people of the Nile were not predominantly light skinned, especially in the South. And the cult of Amun was a dominant aspect of the politics in the late period connecting it to the Kushites from Sudan. These are simple facts that you would prefer didn't count I guess.
As for the reconstruction, I said it was not likely she was very light skinned. Possible but not likely based on everything I mentioned.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Amun was declared a Sudanese deity in the 18th dynasty. I did not say that the cult was exclusively performed by Nubians. I said the center of the cult was in the South around Luxor and extended into Sudan. You are again making up nonsense. The ancient people of the Nile were not predominantly light skinned, especially in the South. And the cult of Amun was a dominant aspect of the politics in the late period connecting it to the Kushites from Sudan. These are simple facts that you would prefer didn't count I guess.
As for the reconstruction, I said it was not likely she was very light skinned. Possible but not likely based on everything I mentioned.
Egypt, Oasis of Bahariya, Bannentiu tomb and frescoes, 26th Dynasty
Amun has never been a specifically "sudanese" deity let alone being "declared" as such. The center of the cult might have been located in Thebes that doesn't mean all people who lived and worked there were from Thebes also are you telling us the reconstruction look foreign for people of Luxor ? Lol
Anyway the cult of amun could have been west african and its center being located in Nigeria it would still not make this reconstruction false so again the reconstruction was made by a serious team of forensic anthropologists, that Doug M wishes ancient egyptians look dark enough to be labelled "black" by his afro-american of west african descent folk is irrelevant.
She looked perfectly egyptian, only afrocentrist/eurocentrist would say it's a coincidence most facial reconstruction look exactly like modern egyptians of course such people prefer to rely on 2D frescoes based on conventional artistic canons set during the early old kingdom.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Amun was declared a Sudanese deity in the 18th dynasty. I did not say that the cult was exclusively performed by Nubians. I said the center of the cult was in the South around Luxor and extended into Sudan. You are again making up nonsense. The ancient people of the Nile were not predominantly light skinned, especially in the South. And the cult of Amun was a dominant aspect of the politics in the late period connecting it to the Kushites from Sudan. These are simple facts that you would prefer didn't count I guess.
And the only one wishing here is you to try and claim this represents light skinned people:
As for the reconstruction, I said it was not likely she was very light skinned. Possible but not likely based on everything I mentioned.
Egypt, Oasis of Bahariya, Bannentiu tomb and frescoes, 26th Dynasty
Amun has never been a specifically "sudanese" deity let alone being "declared" as such. The center of the cult might have been located in Thebes that doesn't mean all people who lived and worked there were from Thebes also are you telling us the reconstruction look foreign for people of Luxor ? Lol
Anyway the cult of amun could have been west african and its center being located in Nigeria it would still not make this reconstruction false so again the reconstruction was made by a serious team of forensic anthropologists, that Doug M wishes ancient egyptians look dark enough to be labelled "black" by his afro-american of west african descent folk is irrelevant.
She looked perfectly egyptian, only afrocentrist/eurocentrist would say it's a coincidence most facial reconstruction look exactly like modern egyptians of course such people prefer to rely on 2D frescoes based on conventional artistic canons set during the early old kingdom.
Man, you are still denying reality. The 25th Dynasty was from Sudan and used the historical connection of Amun to Gebel Barkal as the basis for their legitimacy. And as part of that tradition, the priestesses of Amun were seen as key to the control of power during this era. But even before that the cult of Amun was centered in Upper Egypt and Luxor. There is no denying any of this and the point is that the people of Upper Egypt and Luxor specifically can be very dark. SO you are again making up nonsense with this obsession of light skin in the ancient Nile. And I have posted the images from the 26th dynasty showing they depicted themselves as dark skinned Africans. Modern Egypt is not the same as the culture 2,600 years ago.
quote: When the Egyptians in the early 18th Dynasty conquered northern Sudan (known as Upper Nubia, or, anciently, "Kush"), they identified Jebel Barkal as the birthplace and chief southern residence of their state god Amun of Karnak. As part of their program of conquest, they established the cult of Amun in many places in Nubia, but Jebel Barkal seems to have had a unique importance for them as a creation site and home of a primeval aspect of Amun, whom they typically represented here as a man with a ram's head (to distinguish him from his anthropomorphic Theban counterpart.) Jebel Barkal had the distinction of being the "first" (i.e. uppermost) religious sanctuary in the Egyptian empire; it was also its most remote.
Beneath the Jebel Barkal cliff the Egyptians constructed a modest religious center, to which they gave the same name as Karnak (Ipet-Sut: "Most Select of Places"), Amun’s great sanctuary at Thebes, some 1260 km downriver. Surprisingly, they promoted the belief that the Nubian "Karnak" was the more ancient of the two! The hill itself the Egyptians called variously Dju-Wa’ab (“Pure Mountain”) and Nesut-Tawy (“Thrones of the Two Lands.”), which was sometimes rendered simply Neset-Tawy (“Throne of the Two Lands”). In this way it was identified (retroactively) as the source of the Theban god's most ancient epithet "Lord of the Thrones of the Two Lands." The settlement which grew up around the mountain was called Napata, and the god was called "Amun of Napata, who resides in Pure Mountain."
Jebel Barkal's most distinctive feature is its gigantic free-standing pinnacle, 75 m high, which rises from the south corner of its cliff. This towering monolith, unparalleled in the Nile Valley, was anciently perceived as a colossal natural statue having many overlapping identities - and combining the supernatural powers of all of them. It was recognized, for example, as the phallus of the Creator; it could be seen from the west as a squatting god or a rearing serpent; from the east it evoked a standing royal or divine figure, crowned with a White Crown. Most conspicuously in public art, however, it was represented as a uraeus (or rearing cobra), wearing either a Sun Disk (when seen from the west) or a tall, knobbed White Crown (when seen from the east) (figs. 2,3). Because the uraeus, worn on the front of the king’s crown, was the primary symbol of his royal authority, and because the White Crown was the symbol of his authority to rule Upper Egypt (or generally “the South”), the "uraeus" on Jebel Barkal, when discovered by the pharaohs, seems to have “proved” to them not only that "Upper Egypt" extended as far south as Jebel Barkal but also that Amun, since primeval times, had intended them to rule all of Kush as part of "Upper Egypt."
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Man, you are still denying reality. The 25th Dynasty was from Sudan and used the historical connection of Amun to Gebel Barkal as the basis for their legitimacy. And as part of that tradition, the priestesses of Amun were seen as key to the control of power during this era. But even before that the cult of Amun was centered in Upper Egypt and Luxor. There is no denying any of this and the point is that the people of Upper Egypt and Luxor specifically can be very dark. SO you are again making up nonsense with this obsession of light skin in the ancient Nile. And I have posted the images from the 26th dynasty showing they depicted themselves as dark skinned Africans.
[/QB]
What does the 25th dynasty has to do with her ? Moreover the 25th dynasty being nubian doesn't mean the whole college of priests suddenly became black. literally all of what you post has nothing to do with the woman nor does it contradict the paper. The reconstruction has no light skin but a typical olive skin and egyptians can naturally tan depending on the region they live.
Stop with your obsession over skin color in ancient egypt. These people looked the most like modern egyptians not any other population and there has always been a clinal gradient in terms of skin color.
Again can you show us where exactly the paper is wrong about the reconstruction ? All of what you do is pure speculation based on a dubious intepretation of historical events.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Man, you are still denying reality. The 25th Dynasty was from Sudan and used the historical connection of Amun to Gebel Barkal as the basis for their legitimacy. And as part of that tradition, the priestesses of Amun were seen as key to the control of power during this era. But even before that the cult of Amun was centered in Upper Egypt and Luxor. There is no denying any of this and the point is that the people of Upper Egypt and Luxor specifically can be very dark. SO you are again making up nonsense with this obsession of light skin in the ancient Nile. And I have posted the images from the 26th dynasty showing they depicted themselves as dark skinned Africans.
What does the 25th dynasty has to do with her ? Moreover the 25th dynasty being nubian doesn't mean the whole college of priests suddenly became black. literally all of what you post has nothing to do with the woman nor does it contradict the paper. The reconstruction has no light skin but a typical olive skin and egyptians can naturally tan depending on the region they live.
Stop with your obsession over skin color in ancient egypt. These people looked the most like modern egyptians not any other population and there has always been a clinal gradient in terms of skin color.
Again can you show us where exactly the paper is wrong about the reconstruction ? All of what you do is pure speculation based on a dubious intepretation of historical events. [/QB]
It has to do with the fact that you keep presenting the false idea that ancient Luxor was home to mostly light skinned people. And it has to do with the fact that they restored the tradition of the Divine Adoratrice of Amun which was used as a basis for Southern power going back to the 21st Dynasty.
And it has to do with this: Queen Nodjmet of the 21st Dynasty (long before the Kushites), wife of the high priest of Amun and future pharaoh of 21st dynasty. The 21st dynasty came to power basically from southern priests of Amun at Luxor taking over. Nothing light skinned here: http://anubis4_2000.tripod.com/mummypages1/21A.htm
quote: Nodjmet may have been a daughter of the last ramesside pharaoh, Ramesses XI, and likely even Piankh's wife, if the latter really was Herihor's predecessor as supported by Karl Jansen-Winkeln.[1] Early in her life, she held titles such as Lady of the House and Chief of the Harem of Amun.[2] According to the two Egyptologists Aidan Dodson and Dyan Hilton,[3] Nodjmet had several children with her first husband Piankh: Heqanefer, Heqamaat, Ankhefenmut, Faienmut (a female) and, the most famous of all, the future High Priest of Amun/Pharaoh Pinedjem I. Nodjmet became Piankh's most trusted confidant, and every time he had to fulfill his business in Nubia, the management of Thebes was left to her. When around 1070 BCE Piankh died, Herihor was proposed as his successor; Nodjmet, however, managed to keep her prerogatives marrying this man.[4] Later, Herihor claimed “kingship” – although only inside the borders of the Temple of Amun at Karnak – Nodjmet effectively became his “queen”: her name was inscribed inside a cartouche and later she bore titles such as Lady of the Two Lands and King's Mother
quote: The placement of Henuttawy in the royal families of the late 20th dynasty and the early 21st dynasty is not entirely clear and open to interpretation. Duathathor-Henuttawy held several titles, including King's Daughter; King's Wife; King's Mother; Lady of the Two Lands; Mistress of the Two Lands; Daughter of the Great Royal Wife; Foremost Singer of Amun; Mother of the Great Royal Wife; Mother of the High Priest of Amun; Mother of Generalissimo.
Edward F. Wente had conjectured that Henuttawy was the daughter of Smendes and Queen Tentamun , the wife of Pinudjem I and the mother of King Psusennes and his wife, Mutnodjmet, The High Priest of Amun Menkheperre, the Generalissimo of the South and North, Menkheperre, and God's Wife of Amun Maatkare. Kenneth Kitchen had conjectured there were two women called Henuttawy during the period to explain some of the titles associated with the name Henuttawy.[4]
So your idea that the ancient population of Luxor defauled to light skin is nonsense.
As for the reconstruction, like I said it is not LIKELY that she was light skinned, but it is possible.
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Often what they do with these reconstructions is they present then in dark lighting which makes the skin tone more ambiguous. Often there is a black background of darkness, it's kind theatrical, or like you might see in dimly lit museum with the spotlights softly on the object
But in normal every day daylight they turn out to be lighter then they appeared to be
- but it's too late by then, they already snuck in the door, Trojan horse style
yeah they appear brownish (I mean "Olive") when they're in a dark room
but walking outside could be a different story
how come we never see these foresnsic reconstructions of ancient Egyptians with a brown skin color like this? answer: racism
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: It has to do with the fact that you keep presenting the false idea that ancient Luxor was home to mostly light skinned people.
No people from luxor probably had the same tone as the modern inhabitants of the region. You can artificially try to give her a darker tone she would still look like modern egyptians.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: And it has to do with the fact that they restored the tradition of the Divine Adoratrice of Amun which was used as a basis for Southern power going back to the 21st Dynasty.
This isn't going to tell us how people from that region looked like nor does it prevent people from moving to Thebes.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Queen Nodjmet of the 21st Dynasty (long before the Kushites), wife of the high priest of Amun and future pharaoh of 21st dynasty. The 21st dynasty came to power basically from southern priests of Amun at Luxor taking over. Nothing light skinned here Another queen from the 21st Dynasty also associated with Luxor and Upper Egypt:
[QUOTE] The placement of Henuttawy in the royal families of the late 20th dynasty and the early 21st dynasty is not entirely clear and open to interpretation. Duathathor-Henuttawy held several titles, including King's Daughter; King's Wife; King's Mother; Lady of the Two Lands; Mistress of the Two Lands; Daughter of the Great Royal Wife; Foremost Singer of Amun; Mother of the Great Royal Wife; Mother of the High Priest of Amun; Mother of Generalissimo.
So your idea that the ancient population of Luxor defauled to light skin is nonsense.
As for the reconstruction, like I said it is not LIKELY that she was light skinned, but it is possible.
nothing light skinned indeed but that's because of this :
quote: As decomposition progresses, the skin changes color in a variety of ways that serve to overwhelm and disguise the complexion of the individual during life. Head hair, however, can be very useful—especially in children where modifications of natural form and color are rare.
Linda L. Klepinger, fundamentals of forensic anthropology, pp. 66
A mummy isn't going to tell us much about skin color except if we perform a deeper microscopic analysis.
Also are you aware that's also how nodjmet was depicted :
I'd also ask you why you think some egyptians couldn't have nubian ancestry ? Did they only mix with light skin settlers ? lol
Here another reconstruction from an ancient egyptian known as Nebiri (18th dynasty, Thebes) :
Here another one from upper egypt known as Tjeby (2150 and 2030 BCE) :
You can make them darker if you want they'll still look like modern egyptians certainly not "black"
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: european ? Show me a single european woman that looks like her.
And can't you read what they wrote : "Unlike many other facial reconstructions, jewellery, clothing and wigs were not used, as these are hypothetical assumptions. Our reconstruction focuses exclusively on the forensically reconstructed appearance and the anatomical evidence. "
She looks like modern egyptians stop trying to darkwash ancient egyptians.
I understand there isn't much differences in the human family but you can't think that makes sense.
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posted
Folks, don't let this lunatic bait you! He loves to put his delusions on display and now he baits you with a white-looking reconstruction. And of course here y'all come like flies to sh*t.
His assertions are only worthy or ridicule.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Folks, don't let this lunatic bait you! He loves to put his delusions on display and now he baits you with a white-looking reconstruction. And of course here y'all come like flies to sh*t.
His assertions are only worthy or ridicule.
so the whole paper is wrong ? Hahahah you literally have no argument against such reconstruction
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posted
Really a bit weird, if one think of it, that westerners (both light skinned and darker skinned) refer to people of all kind of colors as "black". Few peoples are totally black in color. Especially in America also rather light skinned persons are called black. Also curiously some times rather dark skinned South Asians are not referred to as black. Seems like black today is more of a political designation than based on skin color alone. Maybe time some day to ditch the notion that all people of for example African descent, or living in Africa, are black. Maybe time for better and more accurate designations.
Regarding ancient reconstructions, if they are light skinned they obviously attract some angry Afrocentrists (even Europeans as the Ice man reconstructed as relatively light skinned seems to trigger some people).
But I assume even dark skinned reconstructions can trigger feelings. It is interesting that skin color still matters so much.
Maybe I later make a thread where we can post different reconstructions and try to discuss how correct they are.
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: so the whole paper is wrong ? Hahahah you literally have no argument against such reconstruction
I agree with you. Seems that some people think they know more than the experts and forensic artists who made the reconstructions. Also the notion that those experts and artists are racists is rather insulting.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2685 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Really a bit weird, if one think of it, that westerners (both light skinned and darker skinned) refer to people of all kind of colors as "black". Few peoples are totally black in color. Especially in America also rather light skinned persons are called black. Also curiously some times rather dark skinned South Asians are not referred to as black. Seems like black today is more of a political designation than based on skin color alone. Maybe time some day to ditch the notion that all people of for example African descent, or living in Africa, are black. Maybe time for better and more accurate designations.
Regarding ancient reconstructions, if they are light skinned they obviously attract some angry Afrocentrists (even Europeans as the Ice man reconstructed as relatively light skinned seems to trigger some people).
But I assume even dark skinned reconstructions can trigger feelings. It is interesting that skin color still matters so much.
Maybe I later make a thread where we can post different reconstructions and try to discuss how correct they are.
Only americans are confused about it and many afro-americans are also highly mixed which can add more confusion of course but in Europe or North africa "black" is well defined and no one would ever consider egyptians or indians as black.
As for the reconstruction, I don't see where is the problem she could have easily tan like most modern egyptians and the whole point is about features not her skin color. There is clearly nothing "black" about her and she fits well among modern egyptians as expected.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: so the whole paper is wrong ? Hahahah you literally have no argument against such reconstruction
I agree with you. Seems that some people think they know more than the experts and forensic artists who made the reconstructions. Also the notion that those experts and artists are racists is rather insulting.
the thing is that this work doesn't even involve artists, it's made by a recognized forensic laboratory but these afrocentrists tell us it's fake because it doesn't fit their narrative.
literally all the facial reconstructions of ancient egyptians don't look black but yes we should believe it's all fake and made by white supremacists ...XD
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: It has to do with the fact that you keep presenting the false idea that ancient Luxor was home to mostly light skinned people.
No people from luxor probably had the same tone as the modern inhabitants of the region. You can artificially try to give her a darker tone she would still look like modern egyptians.
No. They literally looked like this. You can pretend to act like this is some open ended issue where you can speculate but the facts are there and no speculation is needed.
That is actually how they looked which matches the art as well.
You sitting here pretending to know with no facts and evidence is irrelevant.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: And it has to do with the fact that they restored the tradition of the Divine Adoratrice of Amun which was used as a basis for Southern power going back to the 21st Dynasty.
This isn't going to tell us how people from that region looked like nor does it prevent people from moving to Thebes.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Queen Nodjmet of the 21st Dynasty (long before the Kushites), wife of the high priest of Amun and future pharaoh of 21st dynasty. The 21st dynasty came to power basically from southern priests of Amun at Luxor taking over. Nothing light skinned here Another queen from the 21st Dynasty also associated with Luxor and Upper Egypt:
[QUOTE] The placement of Henuttawy in the royal families of the late 20th dynasty and the early 21st dynasty is not entirely clear and open to interpretation. Duathathor-Henuttawy held several titles, including King's Daughter; King's Wife; King's Mother; Lady of the Two Lands; Mistress of the Two Lands; Daughter of the Great Royal Wife; Foremost Singer of Amun; Mother of the Great Royal Wife; Mother of the High Priest of Amun; Mother of Generalissimo.
So your idea that the ancient population of Luxor defauled to light skin is nonsense.
As for the reconstruction, like I said it is not LIKELY that she was light skinned, but it is possible.
nothing light skinned indeed but that's because of this :
quote: As decomposition progresses, the skin changes color in a variety of ways that serve to overwhelm and disguise the complexion of the individual during life. Head hair, however, can be very useful—especially in children where modifications of natural form and color are rare.
Linda L. Klepinger, fundamentals of forensic anthropology, pp. 66
A mummy isn't going to tell us much about skin color except if we perform a deeper microscopic analysis.
Also are you aware that's also how nodjmet was depicted :
I'd also ask you why you think some egyptians couldn't have nubian ancestry ? Did they only mix with light skin settlers ? lol
Here another reconstruction from an ancient egyptian known as Nebiri (18th dynasty, Thebes) :
Here another one from upper egypt known as Tjeby (2150 and 2030 BCE) :
You can make them darker if you want they'll still look like modern egyptians certainly not "black"
They were not modern Egyptians, the image above is literally how they looked. You are simply ignoring facts and making up nonsense.
Posts: 8891 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: no I consider will smith mixed
.
.
Will Smith's parents, Willard Smith (Sr.) and Caroline Bright
^^ both mixed also?
The vast majority of Americans and Brits would consider Will Smith and his parents black because they look predominantly African
The average European ancestry for blacks in America is around 20% That's mixed technically but look predominantly African and in America or the UK, regarded as black people
And the other 80% is "black" African (although even in Africa the technical name for the skin color of most is "brown", most Africans
Antalas, what about Nelson Mandela? black ?
Posts: 42924 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Big O: These are much more accurate reconstructions, because they have that native divine melaninated skin;
Seems there has been some controversy around that image. Here is a summary from Wiki:
quote: The archaeologist Karl Richard Lepsius documented many ancient Egyptian tomb paintings in his work Denkmäler aus Aegypten und Aethiopien. In 1913, after the death of Lepsius, an updated reprint of the work was produced, edited by Kurt Sethe. This printing included an additional section, called the "Ergänzungsband" in German, which incorporated many illustrations that did not appear in Lepsius' original work. One of them, plate 48, illustrated one example of each of the four "nations" as depicted in KV11, and shows the "Egyptian nation" and the "Nubian nation" as identical to each other in skin color and dress. Professor Ampim has declared that plate 48 is a true reflection of the original painting, and that it "proves" that the ancient Egyptians were identical in appearance to the Nubians, even though he admits no other examples of the "Table of Nations" show this similarity. He has further accused "Euro-American writers" of attempting to mislead the public on this issue.
The late Egyptologist Frank J. Yurco visited the tomb of Ramesses III (KV11), and in a 1996 article on the Ramesses III tomb reliefs he pointed out that the depiction of plate 48 in the Ergänzungsband section is not a correct depiction of what is actually painted on the walls of the tomb. Yurco notes, instead, that plate 48 is a "pastiche" of samples of what is on the tomb walls, arranged from Lepsius' notes after his death, and that a picture of a Nubian person has erroneously been labeled in the pastiche as an Egyptian person. Yurco points also to the much more recent photographs of Dr. Erik Hornung as a correct depiction of the actual paintings.(Erik Hornung, The Valley of the Kings: Horizon of Eternity, 1990). Ampim nonetheless continues to claim that plate 48 shows accurately the images that stand on the walls of KV11, and he categorically accuses both Yurco and Hornung of perpetrating a deliberate deception for the purposes of misleading the public about the true race of the ancient Egyptians
Other pictures from Lepsius book: The "Table of Nations", from Lepsius: Top row, left to right: "Aamu" (Asiatics), "Nehesu" (Nubians), and "Themehu" (Libyans); middle row: a deity, "Reth" (Egyptians), "Aamu" (Asiatics).
Btw what is divine melaninated skin? Sounds mythological.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2685 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Big O: No there is no controversy on how the Khamite saw himself compared to other nations;
Why are those two depicted like that when many other figures in the tomb are depicted more like Egyptians use to be depicted? They do not seem to be representative for all the paintings in the tomb:
Also interesting to compare with Seti I tomb which also have a similar scene. There the Egyptian seems to be depicted in the more common way.
Do you have a good photo of the whole panel in Seti Is tomb so one can compare?
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2685 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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The issue of forensic reconstructions has been discussed many times before including the methods and process used therein.
The only definitive features of a mummy or any corpse is the hard bony skull. The muscle attachments are based on the bone features but the muscle thickness as well as skin thickness which is known as tissue depth varies between populations. Thus forensic artists usually estimate the tissue depth of an individual based on 'race' or ethnicity. The other soft tissue features that characterize the face such as the tip of the nose, the lips, and ears are something that can only be speculated unless portraits are available. And of course skin and eye color cannot be inferred from the remains at all except from pigmentation/melanin dosage tests of the skin and eyes themselves.
Of course, when it comes to forensic recontsructions especially those of ancient Egyptians bias comes into play which is why to prevent any bias the forensic artists are usually double-blinded and are not given the ethnic background the the individual they are told to reconstruct. Often times in the case of Egyptian mummies the artists are not double-blinded and so obvious bias crops up.
Egyptian Egyptologist Ahmed Saleh who has a master's degree in biomedical and forensic studies has complained about the fact that when forensic artists reconstruct Egyptian mummies, for tissue depth reference they always use European or Arab models instead of Baladi (indigenous) Egyptians, particularly Baladi who live the rural areas from Edfu to Aswan. He finds the fair-skin representations to be ludicrous and has even called recent depictions of Tut as "Cauasian" to be "disrespectful to Egypt's African roots". Now mind you, Dr. Saleh is NOT an African American but an Egyptian born and raised. Is he wrong? Why do forensic artists always use Europeans and Arabs a reference instead of indigenous Egyptians??
King Tut's bust made during his life
All the reconstructions of Tut that I can recall made by different teams
It is the same with the Younger Lady who was called "Nefertiti".
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: The issue of forensic reconstructions has been discussed many times before including the methods and process used therein.
The only definitive features of a mummy or any corpse is the hard bony skull. The muscle attachments are based on the bone features but the muscle thickness as well as skin thickness which is known as tissue depth varies between populations. Thus forensic artists usually estimate the tissue depth of an individual based on 'race' or ethnicity. The other soft tissue features that characterize the face such as the tip of the nose, the lips, and ears are something that can only be speculated unless portraits are available. And of course skin and eye color cannot be inferred from the remains at all except from pigmentation/melanin dosage tests of the skin and eyes themselves.
Of course, when it comes to forensic recontsructions especially those of ancient Egyptians bias comes into play which is why to prevent any bias the forensic artists are usually double-blinded and are not given the ethnic background the the individual they are told to reconstruct. Often times in the case of Egyptian mummies the artists are not double-blinded and so obvious bias crops up.
Egyptian Egyptologist Ahmed Saleh who has a master's degree in biomedical and forensic studies has complained about the fact that when forensic artists reconstruct Egyptian mummies, for tissue depth reference they always use European or Arab models instead of Baladi (indigenous) Egyptians, particularly Baladi who live the rural areas from Edfu to Aswan. He finds the fair-skin representations to be ludicrous and has even called recent depictions of Tut as "Cauasian" to be "disrespectful to Egypt's African roots". Now mind you, Dr. Saleh is NOT an African American but an Egyptian born and raised. Is he wrong? Why do forensic artists always use Europeans and Arabs a reference instead of indigenous Egyptians??
King Tut's bust made during his life
All the reconstructions of Tut that I can recall made by different teams
It is the same with the Younger Lady who was called "Nefertiti". [/QB]
As expected I see that you haven't even took the time to check the paper because their whole method is detailed in there and some aspect you said couldn't be reconstructed were in fact preserved thanks to the good state preservation of the mummy ; see for example :
quote: Due to the mummified ear, the shape of the ear could be reconstructed quite accurately, in contrast to pure skeletons where ears are basically reconstructed with a standard ear.
You pretend bias is present because of many labs knowing the origin of the mummy but then proceed to post tutankhamun as an example when actually one of the lab who worked on him were "double-blinded" and yet reached overall the same results as the other labs :
quote: National Geographic has unveiled three independent attempts to reconstruct the face of the boy pharaoh Tutankhamen , who died 3300 years ago. The three teams - French, US, and Egyptian - based their reconstructions on 1700 computed tomography (CT) scans of the mummy that were made by the Egyptians early this year (Science, 28 january, p. 511). The reconstructions differ on details of soft tissue, such as the end of the nose. [...] The Egyptian and French Teams worked with the CT scans knowing they belonged to Tut; the NYU team didn't know.
Anyway why do you assume that baladi from the far south of egypt are necessarily representative of all ancient egyptians ? Why do you assume any substantial difference when it comes to tissue depth between arabs/europeans and "baladis" if that was really the case you admit all these forensic anthropologists are wrong ? Why do you assume all the studies used arabs or europeans as references ?
Anyway overall we can clearly see that this woman was perfectly caucasoid, you can try to darkwash her if you want and you'll see that she will still not look black. I also challenge you to find a single facial reconstruction of ancient egyptians that look "black" (serious reconstructions of course with their papers). There is absolutely no reason for egyptian, european and japanese anthropologists to be biased. Let's be real, if the reconstruction looked let's say fully nigerian or senegalese you wouldn't have question it in the slightest.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti:
Anyway overall we can clearly see that this woman was perfectly caucasoid, you can try to darkwash her if you want and you'll see that she will still not look black. I also challenge you to find a single facial reconstruction of ancient egyptians that look "black" (serious reconstructions of course with their papers). There is absolutely no reason for egyptian, european and japanese anthropologists to be biased. Let's be real, if the reconstruction looked let's say fully nigerian or senegalese you wouldn't have question it in the slightest.
This shows how "caucasoid" physical traits don't necessarily correlate with Eurasian related ancestry perfectly as Somalis are less prognathic than many Europeans and North Africans including the ancient Egyptians.
Somalis also have longer and thinner noses(lower nasal index) than some Europeans.
So the presence of what you consider "perfectly caucasoid" physical traits in the ancient Egyptians is not mutually exclusive with being African, especially when some Africans have these traits at a higher degree than some Europeans.
Posts: 161 | From: England | Registered: May 2020
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quote:Originally posted by SlimJim: https://imgur.com/a/6sn1R2j - Frontal and Facial Flatness of Major Human Populations
This shows how "caucasoid" physical traits don't necessarily correlate with Eurasian related ancestry perfectly as Somalis are less prognathic than many Europeans and North Africans including the ancient Egyptians.
Somalis also have longer and thinner noses(lower nasal index) than some Europeans.
So the presence of what you consider "perfectly caucasoid" physical traits in the ancient Egyptians is not mutually exclusive with being African, especially when some Africans have these traits at a higher degree than some Europeans. [/QB]
Your paper literally show that most SSAs are more prognathic than most west eurasians the only exception I suppose are horners but that actually confirms what I always said that people from the Horn of Africa are mostly caucasoid and genetically plot closer to west eurasians than other SSAs but afrocentrists started to say I'm defending the racist "hamitic theory" and that it doesn't matter as long as horners are seen as black by europeans lol
Moreover "caucasoid/caucasian" isn't only defined by prognathism but a whole set of specific traits here some examples :
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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Anyway overall we can clearly see that this woman was perfectly caucasoid
So we have this mummy and it's skull
And if we look at all human skulls there is a range of variation
Somewhere along the line somebody decided to delineate certain sets of measurement ranges into categories , "Negroid", "Mongoloid", "Caucasoid", Australoid"
So you say this mummy is caucasoid
Question, on this basis in your opinion does that have any relation to what extent she had deep rooted African ancestry
or would you say that you can't tell that from measuring a skull ?
Posts: 42924 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Anyway overall we can clearly see that this woman was perfectly caucasoid
So we have this mummy and it's skull
And if we look at all human skulls there is a range of variation
Somewhere along the line somebody decided to delineate certain sets of measurement ranges into categories , "Negroid", "Mongoloid", "Caucasoid", Australoid"
So you say this mummy is caucasoid
Question, on this basis in your opinion does that have any relation to what extent she had deep rooted African ancestry
or would you say that you can't tell that from measuring a skull ?
I don't know exactly what you mean by "deep rooted african" but such traits are more commonly found in Eurasia than sub-saharan africa. The only place in SSA where such traits are found in substantial number are in the Horn but that's no surprise since horners have important amount of west eurasian ancestry and plot closer to west eurasians than other SSA groups.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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Anyway overall we can clearly see that this woman was perfectly caucasoid
So we have this mummy and it's skull
And if we look at all human skulls there is a range of variation
Somewhere along the line somebody decided to delineate certain sets of measurement ranges into categories , "Negroid", "Mongoloid", "Caucasoid", Australoid"
So you say this mummy is caucasoid
Question, on this basis in your opinion does that have any relation to what extent she had deep rooted African ancestry
or would you say that you can't tell that from measuring a skull ?
I don't know exactly what you mean by "deep rooted african" but such traits are more commonly found in Eurasia than sub-saharan africa. The only place in SSA where such traits are found in substantial number are in the Horn but that's no surprise since horners have important amount of west eurasian ancestry and plot closer to west eurasians than other SSA groups.
By deep rooted African ancestry, meaning ancestry that never left Africa
Here is a Somalian man
If some Eurasians resemble him more than the average West African, Horn Africans might be their ancestors
rather than certain others in East Africa who are mixed with people from the Arabian peninsula or Levant
Similarly if mankind started in Africa the ancestors of Europeans may be more related to East Africans of this type of African, like this Masai man from Kenya and it makes sense because they are close to the land exit of Africa through the Sinai and there is the Nile nearby also, flowing south to North. They also live in drier, less forested climates
The skulls of these men might not fit neatly into these old categories with their implications of origin
Posts: 42924 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Anyway overall we can clearly see that this woman was perfectly caucasoid
So we have this mummy and it's skull
And if we look at all human skulls there is a range of variation
Somewhere along the line somebody decided to delineate certain sets of measurement ranges into categories , "Negroid", "Mongoloid", "Caucasoid", Australoid"
So you say this mummy is caucasoid
Question, on this basis in your opinion does that have any relation to what extent she had deep rooted African ancestry
or would you say that you can't tell that from measuring a skull ?
I don't know exactly what you mean by "deep rooted african" but such traits are more commonly found in Eurasia than sub-saharan africa. The only place in SSA where such traits are found in substantial number are in the Horn but that's no surprise since horners have important amount of west eurasian ancestry and plot closer to west eurasians than other SSA groups.
You are amazingly dense, that's it's a sight to see.
Posts: 45 | From: U.S | Registered: Nov 2021
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posted
Asking what I meant by "deep rooted African" ancestry is not so clear when looking at the 15K Iberomaurusian remains in Morocco
Posts: 42924 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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