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Horus________________4 Egyptians___________________________________________________________2 Asiatics this is the left side in the broader view photo below
not the right one but notable
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Thx. If it's any help the illo is from
Lepsius' Denkmaeler Tafelwerke Band VI Neues Reich DYN XIX Abth.III.Bl.136 d. Ecke aus Raum M [jetz im K.Mus.zu Berlin]
A search on KV17 room M didn't yield a photo of that illo but as well known my data mining skills are inferior to yours plus on top of that I'm old and slow and use lens now.
BTW that illo I posted is from Seti I's tomb the same one the famous 4 Herds painting and your OP photos are from just to make sure we're on the same pg.
Just to be so extra nice Seti tried to do it twice but crew 2 made a snafu what's a dead pharaoh to do?
kairoinfo4u has the most extensive tomb photos and he probably lives in Egypt. I don't have a Flckr account but if you do, this link has a message link. Maybe he know where that figure is and also other things that we have been going over for years such as at Ramesses III a fuller view. Maybe he could even take custom shots He also permits use of his photos if credited and non-commercial
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Neues Reich. Dynastie XIX. Theben (Thebes). Bab el Meluk (Bībān el-Mulūk). Grab Sethos I. (Plan No. XVII) a. d. Raum D. (Forsetzung von Bl. 135); c. Pfeiler aus Raum J; d. Ecke aus Raum M. (c. und d. (NYPL b14291191-38309).jpg
= picture d. Ecke aus Raum M. (Corner from Room M) (may also be called Jb ?) Fus Rhnl
Fus Rhnl ? don't know what that is at lower right of pic (or Rhml)
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You can flip through the art pages there, or go directly to the plates by number, or chose texts.
You can see Lepsius' artists mostly produced facsimile type work as confirmed by modern photos. Most indicate faded peeld or otherwise missing portions which they "restored". I.E.;
The missing last Sudani and first Libyan, the missing last two Libyan heads, also the texts above all their heads. Hor's left arm and nwt glyph from the word deshret plus the bird glyph for the word akh in the nearby text.
Will be glad to see ES referencing the online complete Denkmaeler now. The 19th century handwritten text volumes are easier to read than the famous 20th century Erman & Grapow Worterbuch who's abbreviations are sometimes quite cryptic.
quote: Originally posted by the lioness,
Fus Rhnl ? don't know what that is at lower right of pic (or Rhml)
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Hope this helps. Fuß Rhnl isn't part of the art. Its a scale ruler, like each inch of artwork reps one foot of measure by the bar.
Always keep in mind, these were sacred texts like our TN"K, New Testament, and Qur'an etc.
Been a good eight years since I had books on the various AE afterlife judgement reward and punishment scriptures but I'd say that Feline scene reps retribution on the wicked, decapitated execution style bound ones.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
The reason this is so important to me is that it too shows work crew and foreman error but way worse than in Ramses tomb.
The Ramses BG 4:5 scene only presents what appear to be only pictorial anomalies.
The second set Seti BG 4:5 scene errs in the text which effects the afterlife potential of all humankind to have their shrouds removed and breath of life restored in order to be resurrected for judgement.
The errors go as far as importing some of the next Chapter&Verse text into the scene as wells as transmuting ending Sudani and beginning Libyan text overhead the last Egyptian first Levantine illos where the latter is a Libyan Levantine pastiche probably engendered from the aberrant text.
Ok, I know, I know.
Will try to make it plain with some Paint edited screen captures from artwork plates 135-6.
Anyway photos of pl 136 d are rare, if any even exist, may be because of the state of ruin or probable original poor workmenship of the hall or room housing it.
posted
If you look at the top of this two figures that I clipped out of the larger page that has other scenes I clipped a little too lower but you can see the remnant of the letter d.
Neues Reich. Dynastie XIX. Theben (Thebes). Bab el Meluk (Bībān el-Mulūk). Grab Sethos I. (Plan No. XVII) a. d. Raum D. (Forsetzung von Bl. 135); c. Pfeiler aus Raum J; d. Ecke aus Raum M. (c. und d. (NYPL b14291191-38309).jpg
^^ If I'm reading this correctly theses two figure d figures are in the corner of room M
I'm not see reference to room M specifically in the Seti I tomb but I could be missing it but I saw something that said Hornung refers to M as Jb and there are many photos of Jb ( If not somewhere in chamber J ) but they may not cover the whole thing I am not good at navigating that German Denkmaeler but maybe there is some line drawing of that side locked figure somewhere or some mention of it in the handwritten text or maybe a translation of some distinctive part of the glyph into German which could be keyword search for mention in the text. This is beyond my capability
the photo source I linked for Seti that goes back to kairoinfo4u again. If you click on each photo it goes back to his Flickr with some captioning there and albums of other tombs. He also has a much smaller album spelled Sety but it's reliefs
If some of those glyphs can be translated, maybe a unique word maybe that could be put into a google books search as a keyword along with Seti I or Sety or Sethos and maybe some text talks about that figure
So the basic problem is why does he have this hairstyle but his skirt is Asiatic and please tell us about the glyphs G17 or G20? .
p 128 Monuments de l'Égypte et de la Nubie by Champollion, Jean-Franēois, 1790-1832; Champollion-Figeac, M. (Jacques-Joseph), 1778-1867,
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
d. Ecke aus Raum M. (
^^ If I'm reading this correctly theses two figure d figures are in the corner of room M
Yah Mein hut habt drie ecken Drei ecken habt mein hut!
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quote:I am not good at navigating that German Denkmaeler
OK, but this the source doc for the abridged Herd painting Diop introduced. Bet you can drop a plate number in the menu bar when you come across it in some reference, right?
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quote:So the basic problem is why does he have this hairstyle but his skirt is Asiatic and
The whole contractor team blew it. Need to review tomb decoration process to see who first caused the series of errors. It's important to know the workmen, how the work was executed, the different crews and their responsibilities, the a and b side assignments, etc.
Check out Romer's Ancient Lives vid series and especially his book.
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quote:and please tell us about the glyphs G17 or G20?
The Throwstick and the Owl, next to Libyan locks Levantine, is the beginning of a spelling of Aamu.
Because the sacred text cannot vary, you can find those ID tags surrounding the four men in each of the Four Herds in every tomb painting of this scene. The First Herd is Egyptian, the Second Herd is Aamw. ETC. You probably noticed Sudani #4 and Libyan #1 are in a corner at 90° to each other in some of those photos.
Neues Reich. Dynastie XIX. Theben [Thebes]. Bab el Meluk [Bībān el-Mulūk]. Grab Sethos I. [Plan No. XVII] a. d. Raum D. [Forsetzung von Bl. 135]; c. Pfeiler aus Raum J ; d. Ecke aus Raum M. [c. und d. jetzt im K. Mus. zu Berlin]
Lepsius, Richard, 1810-1884 (Author) Weidenbach, Ernst (1818-1882) (Artist) Weidenbach, Ernst (1818-1882) (Lithographer) COLLECTION Denkmaeler aus Aegypten und Aethiopien nach den Zeichnungen der von seiner Majestat dem Koenige von Preussen Friedrich Wilhelm IV nach diesen Landern gesendeten und in den Jahren 1842-1845 ausgefuhrten wissenschaftlichen Expedition ...
quote:Comparing z. For example, the heads of the 15th to 17th dynasties of the Shosu depicted in Flinders Petrie's radical photographs from the Egyptian monuments, or those that he assumed to be Arabic with those described as coming from Lebanon, you will immediately find a certain Jew - of whom images from the grave of Seti's I. can be found in Lepsius' monuments (Abth. III, Bl. 136). Another division of this Tehenu are, according to Brugsch, the Lebu, which is the word that gave the general name for Libya. 90 similarity, while the noses of the former protrude, but hardly appear to be curved or very straight, associated with uninflated, inflated nostrils.The picture of a head in which Rev. Hechler sees the son of Solomon, Rehaboam, found on the temple walls at Karnak and signed with the name Judha malek, can serve as an example of a distinctly Jewish physiognomy of the ancient Egyptian monuments. Most strikingly Jewish-like heads can be found on the old Assyrian sculptures, such as: B. the bas-relief of Sargon in the Louvre.
translated from the German
Die Aeussere Nase. Eine Anatomisch-Anthropologische Studie by Oskar Edler Von Zderas 1866 Hovorka
The outer nose. An anatomical-anthropological study by Oskar Edler Von Zderas 1866 Hovorka
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: The Throwstick and the Owl, next to Libyan locks Levantine, is the beginning of a spelling of Aamu.
yes as here
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what if the artisans pulled a prank occasionally if they were confident that the tomb would be closed at a certain point that no one would check that particular area?
The tombs were not museum but a sealed space where at that point no one would discover the change or error
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
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Me? I think they just effed up. But... Yeah. Valid speculation. Deir al Madina folk were known for riotness in Ramses time and later. Food slow? Tools old? Blow off some steam. If crew, foreman & scribe are all down, who's gonna know? The pay's the same regardless.
OK now let's navigate the HU tool to find plate 136.
* Click each ABTHEILUNG (unit) until target era shows (New Kingdom) or go directly to Abth number if known
* Choose BAND (volume) you think is near the correct dynasty
BAND V whoops too early (Dyn 17) BAND VI Dyn 18 (still too early but) * but see the number in the next to last menu box at top frame * notice Seite: 91 von 172. Bingo! * type 136 for plate 136 in the box and hit enter
and voila, there you have it, Abth.III.Bl.136
This online book's got Book of Gates the Gate of Teka Hra scene 30 for * KV08 - all in order * KV11f - Aamu & Tjemehu swap positions; Egyptian & Sudanis nearly identical * KV15 - all in order * KV17f - all in order * KV17j - hybrid Aamu/Tjemehu also text in error
quarrymen and plasteres prepared the walls and ceilings
outline draftsmen sketch the scene onto a marked grid
sculptors worked the outline into a relief
craftsmen detail the relief
artists paint the detailed relief - coloring the sculptors' work - redrawing the edges of imaged figures and hieroglyphs
This known from a papyrus of a scribe's plan for Ramses IV's tomb, "drawing with outline, engraving with the chisel, filling with colors and finishing".
A labor gang would consist of a few painters aided by apprentices and assistants. Besides work on royal tombs they were employed by the bureaucrats of Thebes.
Compared to the sculptors and painters who followed them the outline draftsmen were consummate technicians. The outline work in Ramses III's tomb is considered mediocre. It's proposed that the best outline draftsmen of that time were not working on the king's tomb but rather on his temple.
So if KV11 anomalies and KV17 outright ineptness is intentional or mistaken, in either event it's the DRAFTSMEN are to blame for snafu's this magnitude.
In some lesser resolution photos or with different lighting it's harder to see what's going on here but now it's obvious
The blank parts are not where the paint flaked off. There's a whole layer of plaster like someone was starting covering up the whole thing. I don't know what the situation is if it was all covered and then this blank plaster layer flaked off later and revealed the painting underneath but is seems clearly on top of the painting. This is easiest to see around the Nehehsy figure
the color is completely off on two of the Nehesy not sure if it is due to some moisture condition or if there was some plaster over it that came off and took the paint with it. It doesn't look like simple fading since the third figure is fully black
I wonder if after thieves ransacked they they or others tried to cover the walls and the layer began to fall off later or if they just abandoned the idea in the middle, don't know the story on this
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KV17, The Tomb of Seti I, Burial chamber Relief from KV 17, the Tomb of Seti I photo: kairoinfo4uFollow
The sunken rear part of the burial chamber which has a vaulted ceiling.
Astronomical Ceiling,eastern part with constellations of the northern sky.
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It is my understanding that their astrology at this time was not personal horoscope based, that they were used it to try to predict agricultural events but using mythological symbols to depict it but this may be speculative
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