So Saudi Arabia and Palestine is considered North Africa by 23andme?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ If that's the case, that wouldn't surprise me considering that the Levant and Arabia both have significant North African genetic influence. Also as part of the political agenda North Africa is often grouped with Southwest Asia anyway to into a 'MENA' region. Funny how they are quick to lump North Africa with Southwest Asia than they are to lump North Africa with Sub-Sahara even though NA and SSA are all part of the same continent.
Also, note the hypocrisy since Europe, and especially southern Europe also has significant genetic influence from North Africa yet NEVER do you see or hear about Southern Euros being lumped with North Africans.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Please, feel free to post more DNA-tests. It’s getting very interesting. Especially on the “North African” marker. Or what is deemed as the North African marker.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
I thought I'll repost this due to its relevancy to the topic:
quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep: ..There probably is plenty of indigenous North African ancestry, but with everything we understand now, I don't any of us could seriously argue that this is going to be confused with any variant of sub-Saharan ancestry in most analyses. On a PCA chart here..
it'll probably plot in the vicinity of Taforalt or IAM. And we all know how those other two populations got interpreted by the media and Eurocentric bloggers.
^ Note the position of modern North Africans in the chart.
Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
Synop: 1. Tunisian Says great grandfather came from middleast. Understands that the Romans, Spanish and Arabs set up shop in North Africa Doesn’t know any authentic Berbers in her hood. 23andMe West Asian/Middle east 36% Europe 33% 24% North African 6% Senegalese. 1% other African
2. Coptic 23andme 76% North African 23andme’s north African includes Palestine, Yemen, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. 20% Middle Eastern Includes Lebanon, Georgia, and Turkey…
3. Egypt 71% North African 20% Middle East 5% SSA
Egyptian My Heritage DNA Middle East 46% North African 21% 12% Ethiopian Jew 10% Greek 3% Italian 2% Nigerian 1.5% Kenyan
The same 15% SSA as you see in DNA Tribes.
4. Ancestry DNA A very pale Egyptian Admits she doesn’t look it. 77% Middle Eastern (Does not include African countries in their Middle East) 9% North African 5% South European 4% Nigerian (Are Yoruba SNPs hogging all non horner SSA?) 1% Euro Jew aka just European
5. Creamy pale Moroccan lady 32% North African 7% Senegal 35% ME 9% European
Don’t say where they are from Dnaland and 23andMe 23andMe groups ME Bro and Sis East African 45% North African 6 Senegal 2 Arab/Egyptian 36% South Asian 4.7 Dravidian 2.5 Gujarati 2.1 NE Asian 1.3
6. Arab/Egyptian 31% South Asian 14% Dravidian 7% Gujarati 6.9% Central Asian 8.3% Indo-Iranian 5.8% Kalash 1.8 East African 41% North African 2.1% Senegal 1.1%
7. Pale Moroccan Says ignore the light skin I’m African B. Ancestry DNA 50% NA 5% Senegal 1.5% Congo 20% Middle East 16% Iberian #Basal Euro markers
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
The Tiny Therapist (pale Moroccan, as you put it) did a sequel with a different company. It’s now even more absurd. She explains how her grand mother is straight from Germany.
This The Tiny Therapist chick is VERY open minded compared to most NA bloggers I gotta admit.
Anyways good thread Ish.
Edit: Finishing up the video and she really is spilling the beans. She even admits to Northwest Africans having mostly curly hair which MANY North Africans on ABF deny. lol. Also addresses racism in the NA community and even considers herself African.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: This The Tiny Therapist chick is VERY open minded compared to most NA bloggers I gotta admit.
Anyways good thread Ish.
Edit: Finishing up the video and she really is spilling the beans. She even admits to Northwest Africans having mostly curly hair which MANY North Africans on ABF deny. lol. Also addresses racism in the NA community and even considers herself African.
Perhaps she’s been reading from EG?!
Who are these bloggers?
What is ABF?
Lastly, it’s a know fact most North Africans have curly hair. I have been saying and showing this for so long, here. Most females straighten their hair. Many products Black American females use are being used in North Africa as well.
I saw a documentary years ago about a Yemeni-wedding, and the bride her hair was being straightened with products I have seen Black women in the West are using.
I have to say that there is a African conscious movement going on in NA as well. I remember years ago, a encounter I had with a guy from Morocco. He looked like a Pakistani dude. I told him I that, and he got really upset with me over it.
Long story short, many do consider themselves African. But not just African, rather North African.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Ancestry DNA/Ged Match Couples Results - Puerto Rican & Moroccan,
Karim Lizardi DNA - European 61% African 20% Native American 16% Middle eastern 2% Asia Central 1%
Ruby Lizardi DNA - European 10% African 54% Middle eastern 36%
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Perhaps she’s been reading from EG?!
Whats EG?
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Who are these bloggers?
What is ABF?
ABF=Forumbiodiversity and also other forums, blogs and social media platforms where Northwest Africans state the same thing.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Lastly, it’s a know fact most North Africans have curly hair. I have been saying and showing this for so long, here. Most females straighten their hair. Many products Black American females use are being used in North Africa as well.
Never knew this. Reminds me of Ricans/Dominicans.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
I saw a documentary years ago about a Yemeni-wedding, and the bride her hair was being straightened with products I have seen Black women in the West are using.
Interesting.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
I have to say that there is a African conscious movement going on in NA as well. I remember years ago, a encounter I had with a guy from Morocco. He looked like a Pakistani dude. I told him I that, and he got really upset with me over it.
I don't know about this. I notice they try to have it both ways. Sure they'll say that they are "African" but they'll also say that they have zero to do with "Sub Saharan Africans" and are basically native Caucasoids in Africa. Again what I notice from the more hyper racist ones. My ex on the other hand considered herself Black but only because she was raised in the hood lol.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Long story short, many do consider themselves African. But not just African, rather North African.
Yeah, basically this.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: I remember years ago, a encounter I had with a guy from Morocco. He looked like a Pakistani dude. I told him I that, and he got really upset with me over it.
why did you tell him that?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: The Tiny Therapist (pale Moroccan, as you put it) did a sequel with a different company. It’s now even more absurd. She explains how her grand mother is straight from Germany.
We have discussed these things here. And now we see things falling in place.
Shout to Serene Hadaya for doing this.
Appearetnly she did a second test, without a video.
NEW ancestry estimate is: 54% middle east, 38% turkey and caucasus, 5% iran and persia, 2% italy, 1% greek and balkans my NEW 23andme estimate is: 75.8% syria, 13.1% north african and arabian, 4.5% broadly western asian & north african, 0.8% ashkenazi jewish, 0.7% balkan, 3.1% broadly Southern European, 0.4% broadly european, 0.2% broadly northern asian and native american, 0.2% broadly east asian & native american, 0.1% sub-saharan african, & 1.1% unassigned.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: The Tiny Therapist (pale Moroccan, as you put it) did a sequel with a different company. It’s now even more absurd. She explains how her grand mother is straight from Germany.
Do you think it's possible she has Vandal ancestry??
Could be, considering we have more knowledge about the topic than most people.
About 6 years ago I had a conversation with a Moraccan and a Cape Verdean girl. Actually it was their conversation, but I was with them.
The Moroccan girl said she knew a Cape Verdean girl who looks just a like a Moroccan (And I suspect who she was talking about), she continued with how she also had a Moraccan female friend who looked complete European, she said: "blond hair blue eye" etc..
I didn't say a thing because I don't want get people upset or even depressed.
quote: The general analysis (based on historical sources, epigraphy and archaeological evidence) focuses on transitions in town and country and economy from Roman to Vandal and to Byzantine rule and observing patterns and facets of continuity and change.
Background: The most recent Alu insertions reveal different series of characteristics such as stability that make them particularly suitable genetic markers for human biological studies.
Subjects and methods: Forty-seven Berbers from Sejnane and 33 from Takrouna were sampled. Alu insertion polymorphism was analysed using PCR with loci specific primers.
Results: A similar level of gene diversity was detected in Sejnane and Takrouna populations. PC results revealed genetic affinities between these two populations and some Eurasian populations ( Germany, Genova and Syria). In contrast, there is a differentiation between these two Berber communities and North African and Iberian populations.
Conclusion: The results of this study confirm the heterogeneity of Berbers in North Africa, which suggests their diverse origins. In the case of Sejnane and Takrouna populations, these results are in line with an ancient Euro Mediterranean background that has already been studied by archaeologists, particularly for the population of Sejnane.
~S. Frigi, H. Ennafaa, M. Ben Amor, L. Cherni and A. Ben Ammar-Elgaaied
Assessing human genetic diversity in Tunisian Berber populations by Alu insertion polymorphisms
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: I remember years ago, a encounter I had with a guy from Morocco. He looked like a Pakistani dude. I told him I that, and he got really upset with me over it.
why did you tell him that?
It was in the mid-90's. I don't remember what the conversation was about. I do remember his reaction.
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: Whats EG?
I mean ES Egypt Search.
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: I don't know about this. I notice they try to have it both ways. Sure they'll say that they are "African" but they'll also say that they have zero to do with "Sub Saharan Africans" and are basically native Caucasoids in Africa. Again what I notice from the more hyper racist ones.
This has to do with the fact that some Black Americans are trying to exclude them from the "African collective" as being African (even some sub Saharan Africans look at them crooked like a stepchild).
And secondly, because they have been influenced by foreign entities as well (to put it like that).
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: My ex on the other hand considered herself Black but only because she was raised in the hood lol.
A lot do. They have African swag.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Yaman S. Atik, Syrian DNA Test results (MyHeritage DNA & FamilyTreeDNA)
CBC Marketplace investigates the science and marketing behind popular DNA ancestry kits. Host Charlsie Agro and her identical twin sister Carly test five top brands. Find out why ancestry test kits are not as accurate as you might think. To read more: https://www.cbc.ca/1.4980976
Twins get 'mystifying' DNA ancestry test results (Marketplace)
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ If that's the case, that wouldn't surprise me considering that the Levant and Arabia both have significant North African genetic influence. Also as part of the political agenda North Africa is often grouped with Southwest Asia anyway to into a 'MENA' region. Funny how they are quick to lump North Africa with Southwest Asia than they are to lump North Africa with Sub-Sahara even though NA and SSA are all part of the same continent.
Also, note the hypocrisy since Europe, and especially southern Europe also has significant genetic influence from North Africa yet NEVER do you see or hear about Southern Euros being lumped with North Africans.
That's totally normal because NA share more things in common with the middle east and south europe than with sub-saharan africa. It's like saying armenians and chinese should be grouped together simply because they live on the same continent...that just doesn't make sense. Moreover the North african influence on southern europe is tiny and the islamic culture divided the mediterranean area in two (unfortunately).
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: This The Tiny Therapist chick is VERY open minded compared to most NA bloggers I gotta admit.
Anyways good thread Ish.
Edit: Finishing up the video and she really is spilling the beans. She even admits to Northwest Africans having mostly curly hair which MANY North Africans on ABF deny. lol. Also addresses racism in the NA community and even considers herself African.
That's simply false you have already seen me and my parents none of us have curly hair and no one in my family and among my friends have curly hair.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: My result I'm from north morocco :
Can you show a breakdown. So we can see what is what? Like E or J1, J2 etc. or any European admixture.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ If that's the case, that wouldn't surprise me considering that the Levant and Arabia both have significant North African genetic influence. Also as part of the political agenda North Africa is often grouped with Southwest Asia anyway to into a 'MENA' region. Funny how they are quick to lump North Africa with Southwest Asia than they are to lump North Africa with Sub-Sahara even though NA and SSA are all part of the same continent.
Also, note the hypocrisy since Europe, and especially southern Europe also has significant genetic influence from North Africa yet NEVER do you see or hear about Southern Euros being lumped with North Africans.
That's totally normal because NA share more things in common with the middle east and south europe than with sub-saharan africa. It's like saying armenians and chinese should be grouped together simply because they live on the same continent...that just doesn't make sense. Moreover the North african influence on southern europe is tiny and the islamic culture divided the mediterranean area in two (unfortunately).
That’s a funny comment, considering that in your plot (you show) there is no Middle East.
quote: Y-chromosome haplogroup tree
The Y-chromosome haplogroup tree has been constructed manually following YCC 2008 nomenclature20 with some modifications.35 The tree (Supplementary Figure S1) contains the E haplogroups of Eritrean populations from this study and those reported in the literature.22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34 Genotyping results for E-V13, E-V12, E-V22 and E-V32 reported for Eritrean samples and elsewhere23, 27 were retracted to E-M78 haplogroup level. All the analyses in this study were done at the same resolution using the following 17 bi-allelic markers: E-M96, E-M33, E-P2, E-M2, E-M58, E-M191, E-M154, E-M329, E-M215, E-M35, E-M78, E-M81, E-M123, E-M34, E-V6, E-V16/E-M281 and E-M75.
[...]
Median-joining (MJ) network. Network manipulated to fit the geography of the extant populations. MJ network was constructed using E haplogroup frequencies. Group represented by ITAL contains all the Italian samples pooled. Populations’ descriptions are given in Supplementary Table S1.
NJ tree based on FST values generated from Arlequin 3.11. Population names are as given in Supplementary Table S1. Population life style: circle – agriculturalists; square – pastoralists; triangle – nomads; inverted triangle – nomadic pastoralists; diamond – agro-pastoralists. The populations are colored according to their language family: red – Afro-asiatic; blue – Nilo-Saharan; green – Niger-Kordofanian; yellow – Khoisan; black – Italic and Basque.
[...]
Interestingly, this ancestral cluster includes populations like Fulani who has previously shown to display Eastern African ancestry, common history with the Hausa who are the furthest Afro-Asiatic speakers to the west in the Sahel, with a large effective size and complex genetic background.23 The Fulani who currently speak a language classified as Niger-Kordofanian may have lost their original tongue to as sociated sedentary group similar to other cattle herders in Africa a common tendency among pastoralists. Clearly cultural trends exemplified by populations, like Hausa or Massalit, the latter who have neither strong tradition in agriculture nor animal husbandry, were established subsequent to the initial differentiation of haplogroup E. For example, the early clusters within the network also include Nilo-Saharan speakers like Kunama of Eritrea and Nilotic of Sudan who are ardent nomadic pastoralists but speak a language of non-Afro-Asiatic background the predominant linguistic family within the macrohaplogroup.
[...]
The Sahel, which extends between the Atlantic coast of Africa and the Red Sea plateau, represents one of the least sampled areas and populations in the domain of human genetics. The position of Eritrea adjacent to the Red Sea coast provides opportunities for insights regarding human migrations within and beyond the African landscape.
Results
One query, however, is whether the major macrohaplogroup E present almost in all continents and with particularly high frequency in East and North Africa in plethora of ancestral lineages, because of gene flow or an original early event of in situ evolution.
--Eyoab I Gebremeskel1,2 and Muntaser E Ibrahim1
European Journal of Human Genetics (2014) 22, 1387–1392; doi:10.1038/ejhg.2014.41; published online 26 March 2014
Y-chromosome E haplogroups: their distribution and implication to the origin of Afro-Asiatic languages and pastoralism
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: My result I'm from north morocco :
[ 20. June 2019, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: Askia_The_Great ]
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
You need to link or shrink the image because it’s ridiculously and unnecessary large. And you are messing up the thread.
And what is the source, how was the data gathered? And what is "North Marocco"? Name the place, please. Is it coastal etc...?
So say you are J1, but J1 isn't natively North African. So if that 77.1% is J1 there is something off.
Lastly, not everyone in Morocco is Berber, or native.
Posted by Askia_The_Great (Member # 22000) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: This The Tiny Therapist chick is VERY open minded compared to most NA bloggers I gotta admit.
Anyways good thread Ish.
Edit: Finishing up the video and she really is spilling the beans. She even admits to Northwest Africans having mostly curly hair which MANY North Africans on ABF deny. lol. Also addresses racism in the NA community and even considers herself African.
That's simply false you have already seen me and my parents none of us have curly hair and no one in my family and among my friends have curly hair.
Willing to be corrected. Also be wary of posting large images.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: You need to link or shrink the image because it’s ridiculously and unnecessary large. And you are messing up the thread.
And what is the source, how was the data gathered? And what is "North Marocco"? Name the place, please. Is it coastal etc...?
So say you are J1, but J1 isn't natively North African. So if that 77.1% is J1 there is something off.
Lastly, not everyone in Morocco is Berber, or native.
Wait a minute why are you so offensive like that ? be respectful please.
North morocco in my case is : Tafersit ( rif mountain on my mother's side) and Oujda/berkane on my father's side and yes it is the mediterranean coast of Morocco.
so it's probably very old...I also know some southern europeans with J1 it doesn't make them arabs. And as I said my tests show that I'm even less ME shifted than the great majority of maghrebis.
Lastly yes almost everyone in morocco is berber and native it's not an afram who will teach me something about my own country so he can claim our history.
Posted by Askia_The_Great (Member # 22000) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
Lastly yes almost everyone in morocco is berber and native it's not an afram who will teach me something about my own country so he can claim our history.
The person you are speaking to is a Tuareg Berber.... Not an Afram.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
Lastly yes almost everyone in morocco is berber and native it's not an afram who will teach me something about my own country so he can claim our history.
The person you are speaking to is a Tuareg Berber.... Not an Afram.
99% of his posts on this site are afrocentrists lies so he's probably a very dark skinned tuareg or he's simply lying about his identity.
Posted by Askia_The_Great (Member # 22000) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
Lastly yes almost everyone in morocco is berber and native it's not an afram who will teach me something about my own country so he can claim our history.
The person you are speaking to is a Tuareg Berber.... Not an Afram.
99% of his posts on this site are afrocentrists lies so he's probably a very dark skinned tuareg or he's simply lying about his identity.
STICK to the topic at hand. We don't need character assassinations. Ish's skin complexion has no relevancy on the discussion.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
Lastly yes almost everyone in morocco is berber and native it's not an afram who will teach me something about my own country so he can claim our history.
The person you are speaking to is a Tuareg Berber.... Not an Afram.
99% of his posts on this site are afrocentrists lies so he's probably a very dark skinned tuareg or he's simply lying about his identity.
99% of the Tuareg have dark skin. And have afro-textured hair type.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Wait a minute why are you so offensive like that ? be respectful please.
By off I don't mean to offend. I mean, it's not native.
But you lack M81, correct?
quote:”E-M81 has been found at high frequencies (71%) in Northwestern Africa and its frequency decreases towards the East;...”
In spite of a reduction in STR heterozygosity towards the West, which would point to an origin in the Near East, ancient DNA evidence together with our TMRCA estimates point to a local origin of E-M183 in NW Africa.”
~Comas D, Fadhlaoui-Zid K et al. Whole Y-chromosome sequences reveal an extremely recent origin of the most common North African paternal lineage E-M183 (M81)
And again, what did they sequence?
Of course, J1 could (can) be found amongst the Guanches.
Specualed is that the settled in the region from 1000 BC to at least 400 years ago.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Some other results :
Not that I have a problem with it, but these results are unassigned.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
Lastly yes almost everyone in morocco is berber and native it's not an afram who will teach me something about my own country so he can claim our history.
The person you are speaking to is a Tuareg Berber.... Not an Afram.
99% of his posts on this site are afrocentrists lies so he's probably a very dark skinned tuareg or he's simply lying about his identity.
99% of the Tuareg have dark skin. And have afro-textured hair type.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Wait a minute why are you so offensive like that ? be respectful please.
By off I don't mean to offend. I mean, it's not native.
But you lack M81, correct?
quote:”E-M81 has been found at high frequencies (71%) in Northwestern Africa and its frequency decreases towards the East;...”
In spite of a reduction in STR heterozygosity towards the West, which would point to an origin in the Near East, ancient DNA evidence together with our TMRCA estimates point to a local origin of E-M183 in NW Africa.”
~Comas D, Fadhlaoui-Zid K et al. Whole Y-chromosome sequences reveal an extremely recent origin of the most common North African paternal lineage E-M183 (M81)
And again, what did they sequence?
Of course, J1 could (can) be found amongst the Guanches.
Specualed is that the settled in the region from 1000 BC to at least 400 years ago.
with two minorities one looking like west africans and another one looking like the original tuaregs (equidians) who appeared in the sahara during the Neolithic era and enslaved the local native black populations.
Moreover studies show that moroccans are mainly berbers with no difference between berber speakers and arabic speakers. And that's false no berber colonized those islands 400 years ago wtf 400 years ago those islands were already controlled by iberians. Also one member of my lineage being arab doesn't make me arab autosomal results are way more important.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Some other results :
Not that I have a problem with it, but these results are unassigned.
What do you mean ? you posted the same kind of results.
Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Not true at all the great majority of tuaregs look mixed like this one : https://imgur.com/KQa6FsO
with two minorities one looking like west africans and another one looking like the original tuaregs (equidians) who appeared in the Sahara during the Neolithic era and enslaved the local native black populations.
Moreover studies show that Moroccans are mainly berbers with no difference between berber speakers and arabic speakers. And that's false no berber colonized those islands 400 years ago wtf 400 years ago those islands were already controlled by iberians. Also one member of my lineage being arab doesn't make me arab autosomal results are way more important.
Protips, 1. drop some sources here... "studies shown" won't cut it when general sweeping claims. 2. This is isn't a race forum, you can bring your political qualms to Deshret. If you're here to datamine I suggest you lurk and ask questions before picking a fight. You won't be able to pick up steam here with short sided analysis just because you're antagonizing black people.
Otherwise welcome and happy posting.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Not true at all the great majority of tuaregs look mixed like this one : https://imgur.com/KQa6FsO
with two minorities one looking like west africans and another one looking like the original tuaregs (equidians) who appeared in the Sahara during the Neolithic era and enslaved the local native black populations.
Moreover studies show that Moroccans are mainly berbers with no difference between berber speakers and arabic speakers. And that's false no berber colonized those islands 400 years ago wtf 400 years ago those islands were already controlled by iberians. Also one member of my lineage being arab doesn't make me arab autosomal results are way more important.
Protips, 1. drop some sources here... "studies shown" won't cut it when general sweeping claims. 2. This is isn't a race forum, you can bring your political qualms to Deshret. If you're here to datamine I suggest you lurk and ask questions before picking a fight. You won't be able to pick up steam here with short sided analysis just because you're antagonizing black people.
Otherwise welcome and happy posting.
hahaha hello elmaestro thank you for your tips ( Sorry I'm just new here )
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: the great majority of tuaregs look mixed like this one : https://imgur.com/KQa6FsO
The total population of Tuaregs is estimated to be between 1.2 and 3 million. The largest concentrations are in northern Niger and Mali.
What country is the man from who you linked?
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: the great majority of tuaregs look mixed like this one : https://imgur.com/KQa6FsO
The total population of Tuaregs is estimated to be between 1.2 and 3 million. The largest concentrations are in northern Niger and Mali.
What country is the man from who you linked?
He's malian
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
Lastly yes almost everyone in morocco is berber and native it's not an afram who will teach me something about my own country so he can claim our history.
The person you are speaking to is a Tuareg Berber.... Not an Afram.
99% of his posts on this site are afrocentrists lies so he's probably a very dark skinned tuareg or he's simply lying about his identity.
99% of the Tuareg have dark skin. And have afro-textured hair type.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Wait a minute why are you so offensive like that ? be respectful please.
By off I don't mean to offend. I mean, it's not native.
But you lack M81, correct?
quote:”E-M81 has been found at high frequencies (71%) in Northwestern Africa and its frequency decreases towards the East;...”
In spite of a reduction in STR heterozygosity towards the West, which would point to an origin in the Near East, ancient DNA evidence together with our TMRCA estimates point to a local origin of E-M183 in NW Africa.”
~Comas D, Fadhlaoui-Zid K et al. Whole Y-chromosome sequences reveal an extremely recent origin of the most common North African paternal lineage E-M183 (M81)
And again, what did they sequence?
Of course, J1 could (can) be found amongst the Guanches.
Specualed is that the settled in the region from 1000 BC to at least 400 years ago.
with two minorities one looking like west africans and another one looking like the original tuaregs (equidians) who appeared in the sahara during the Neolithic era and enslaved the local native black populations.
Moreover studies show that moroccans are mainly berbers with no difference between berber speakers and arabic speakers. And that's false no berber colonized those islands 400 years ago wtf 400 years ago those islands were already controlled by iberians. Also one member of my lineage being arab doesn't make me arab autosomal results are way more important.
Where do most Kel reside? lol
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: the great majority of tuaregs look mixed like this one : https://imgur.com/KQa6FsO
The total population of Tuaregs is estimated to be between 1.2 and 3 million. The largest concentrations are in northern Niger and Mali.
(The caucasoid element is obvious but apparently we can't talk about race here)
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^ You can start a thread on this in deshret forum if necessary by copying the above post and calling the topic something like "Ancestry and North African Phenotypes"
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^ You can start a thread on this in deshret forum if necessary by copying the above post and calling the topic something like "Ancestry and North African Phenotypes"
Thank you but I don't think it's a good idea to debate with people who have extremist ideas and opinions. I don't want to waste my time haha
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: The caucasoid element is obvious but apparently we can't talk about race here)
What happened to your color complexion babbles?
"CACASOID"? lol PLUASE LOL
Most people in North Africa aren’t even “Caucasian” in traits, but intermediate. That is why Europeans often mistake North Africans for biracial-Blacks.
quote: Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero with a skeletally robust, trans-Saharan assemblage of Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene human populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.
quote:Figure 6. Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.
Plot of first two principal components extracted from a mean matrix for 17 craniometric variables (Tables 4, 7) in 9 human populations (Table 3) from the Late Pleistocene through the mid-Holocene from the Maghreb and southern Sahara. Seven trans-Saharan populations cluster together, whereas Late Pleistocene Aterians (Ater) and the mid-Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-m) are striking outliers. Axes are scaled by the square root of the corresponding eigenvalue for the principal component. Abbreviations: Ater, Aterian; EMC, eastern Maghreb Capsian; EMI, eastern Maghreb Iberomaurusian; Gob-e, Gobero early Holocene; Gob-m, Gobero mid-Holocene; Mali, Hassi-el-Abiod, Mali[]/b; Maur, Mauritania; WMC, western Maghreb Capsian; WMI, [b]western Maghreb Iberomaurusian.
--(doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0002995.g006)
quote:Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18], [26], [27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb (see cluster in Figure 6). The striking similarity between these seven human populations confirms previous suggestions regarding their affinity [18] and is particularly significant given their temporal range (Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene) and trans-Saharan geographic distribution (across the Maghreb to the southern Sahara).
quote: Trans-Saharan craniometry. Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero, who were buried with Kiffian material culture, with Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene humans from the Maghreb and southern Sahara referred to as Iberomaurusians, Capsians and “Mechtoids.” Outliers to this cluster of populations include an older Aterian sample and the mid-Holocene occupants at Gobero associated with Tenerean material culture.
The above encapsulated exactly with the Genetic mutation and occurrence of E-M81.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^ You can start a thread on this in deshret forum if necessary by copying the above post and calling the topic something like "Ancestry and North African Phenotypes"
Thank you but I don't think it's a good idea to debate with people who have extremist ideas and opinions. I don't want to waste my time haha
Extremist ideas and opinions are when you fantasize about CACA-phenotypes.
Africans are the most diverse people in pheno- and genotype. The Kel have nothing to do with the caucausus mountains.
There are different Kel federations, in which the phenotype can differ. However, most have dark skin, contrary to your extremist ideas and opinions.
quote:Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History "In particular, the Tuareg have 50% to 80% of their paternal lineages E1b1b1b-M81 [34], [35]. The Tuareg are seminomadic pastoralist groups that are mostly spread between Libya, Algeria, Mali, and Niger. They speak a Berber language and are believed to be the descendants of the Garamantes people of Fezzan, Libya (500 BC - 700 CE) [34]."
~Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. Genome-Wide and Paternal Diversity Reveal a Recent Origin of Human Populations in North Africa
quote: The field seasons 2004-2006 at the necropolis of Fewet provided 33 human ske-letons in various state of preservation. A comprehensive description of the human skeletal sample is reported here, with the aim to provide anthropological data related to the emer-gence of the Garamantian society in the Fezzan. Overall, the study includes: a tentative paleodemographic profile of Fewet population; the analysis of metric and morphological features of cranial, dental, and postcranial remains; the scoring of skeletal/dental patho-logies and aspecific markers of stress. The picture of a rather poor community emerges, characterized by harsh life conditions (heavy daily work load, malnutrition, poor health status), high infant mortality, and low life expectancy among the adults. The analysis of cranial morphology at Fewet, compared to other skeletal samples from neighbouring are-as, suggests biological continuity between populations living in the Fezzan from the Late Pastoral to Roman times, together with the evidence of gene flow with other (tentatively sub-Saharan) populations. Dental dimensions are consistent with this conclusion. The sta-ture documented among adults is remarkably low. Postcranial measurements suggest a moderate division of labour between the sexes, with the females mostly devoted to activities involving the use of the upper limbs (mostly manual activities), while males used intensively the lower limbs (for walking over long distances).
now show the Tuareg mtDNA so we have the female side
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: now show the Tuareg mtDNA so we have the female side
My dare, you know that already.
quote:“In the present work, mtDNA data show a diversified distribution of African haplogroups [...]
Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa”
~Frigi S, Cherni L, Fadhlaoui-Zid K, Benammar-Elgaaied A.
Ancient local evolution of African mtDNA haplogroups in Tunisian Berber populations.
Posted by Askia_The_Great (Member # 22000) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^ You can start a thread on this in deshret forum if necessary by copying the above post and calling the topic something like "Ancestry and North African Phenotypes"
Thank you but I don't think it's a good idea to debate with people who have extremist ideas and opinions. I don't want to waste my time haha
Then why join this site in first place?
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^ You can start a thread on this in deshret forum if necessary by copying the above post and calling the topic something like "Ancestry and North African Phenotypes"
Thank you but I don't think it's a good idea to debate with people who have extremist ideas and opinions. I don't want to waste my time haha
Then why join this site in first place?
Because some people are willing to accept the truth but some fake tuareg on the internet are not ready. Also he said that North africans don't even look caucasians but biracial lol why didn't you contradict him especially after all i showed you on ABF and why did you say that negrocentrists were rare and not common ?? just look at this thread and the other one about the race of ancient egyptians.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^ You can start a thread on this in deshret forum if necessary by copying the above post and calling the topic something like "Ancestry and North African Phenotypes"
Thank you but I don't think it's a good idea to debate with people who have extremist ideas and opinions. I don't want to waste my time haha
Then why join this site in first place?
Because some people are willing to accept the truth but some fake tuareg on the internet are not ready. Also he said that North africans don't even look caucasians but biracial lol why didn't you contradict him especially after all i showed you on ABF and why did you say that negrocentrists were rare and not common ?? just look at this thread and the other one about the race of ancient egyptians.
The average European will see not see the difference between a biracial Black and Magrebi. I have seen this many times.
Now go shed a tear or two.
Perhaps when you can tell where most of the Tuareg resite you may have a point. For now, you are just a joke amongst jokes.
You are not even a Berber, so what the hell are you talking about? lol
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: just look at this thread and the other one about the race of ancient egyptians.
We look at the facts, and these facts completely contradict you.
Do tell, are you prone to melanoma? Where from the Arabian Peninsula did you originate?
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
My tests show that I'm even less "arab" than the average berber but I'm arab lol and stop posting north africans from southern areas so you can claim NA's history. Be proud of your west african ancestors.
Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^ You can start a thread on this in deshret forum if necessary by copying the above post and calling the topic something like "Ancestry and North African Phenotypes"
Thank you but I don't think it's a good idea to debate with people who have extremist ideas and opinions. I don't want to waste my time haha
Then why join this site in first place?
Because some people are willing to accept the truth but some fake tuareg on the internet are not ready. Also he said that North africans don't even look caucasians but biracial lol why didn't you contradict him especially after all i showed you on ABF and why did you say that negrocentrists were rare and not common ?? just look at this thread and the other one about the race of ancient egyptians.
The issue is that you can say a whole bunch of bullshit on ABF and get away with it as long as you're trying to counter black posters... The serious and respectable posters who would have took your side on ABF have been dead silent or completely left for like two years already after certain studies were published. ABF is nothing more than an aggressive race forumn at this point. And even then you had other North Africans like Tsarcastic and Dohan trying to give you warnings about your style of posting. You can name call all you want but make sure you can back up what you say here with data...
posts like this....
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: My tests show that I'm even less "arab" than the average berber but I'm arab lol and stop posting north africans from southern areas so you can claim NA's history. Be proud of your west african ancestors.
Isn't going to help here my friend lol.
You might be less putative "arab" but you're more European. you think you're among the most pure Magherbi? how much Late neolithic Moroccan do you score?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: My tests show that I'm even less "arab" than the average berber but I'm arab lol and stop posting north africans from southern areas so you can claim NA's history. Be proud of your west african ancestors.
Your test is an "estimate". And your "test" is unsigned and unspecific. Your test according to your own claim is J1.
This remains funny.
quote:“Haplogroup E Haplogroup E is the most frequent haplogroup in Africa, but is also found in the Middle East, southern Europe and Asia (Cruciani et al., 2002; Semino et al., 2004; Karafet et al., 2008). Among its sub-clades, E-M81 and E-M78 seem to be of North African origin with Paleolithic and Neolithic expansions that reached surrounding areas (Arredi et al., 2004; Cruciani et al., 2007). Firstly, E-M81 is the most common haplogroup in North Africa showing its highest concentrations in Northwestern Africa (76 % in Saharawis in Morocco (Arredi et al., 2004)) with cline frequencies decreasing eastward: Algeria (45 %), Libya (34 %) and Egypt (10 %) (Robino et al., 2008; Triki-Fendri et al., submitted; Arredi et al., 2004)
Besides, Ottoni et al., (2011) have reported that E-M81 appear to constitute a common paternal genetic matrix in the Tuareg populations where it was encountered at high frequency (89 %). Hence, the distribution of this haplogroup in Africa closely matches the present area of Berber-speaking population’s allocation on the continent, suggesting a close haplogroup-ethnic group parallelism (Bosch et al., 2001; Cruciani et al., 2002; 2004; Arredi et al., 2004; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al., 2011; Bekada et al., 2013). However, knowing that the Berber dialects have been replaced by Arabic in North African populations, carriers of E-M81 haplogroup are currently Arab-speaking peoples whose ancestors were Berber-speaking. [...] Outside of Africa, E-M81 is almost absent in the Middle East and in Europe (with the exception of Iberia and Sicily). The presence of E-M81 in the Iberian Peninsula (12 % in southern Portugal) (Cruciani et al., 2004) has been attributed to trans-Mediterranean contacts linked to the Islamic influence, since it is typically Berber (Bosch et al., 2001; Semino et al., 2004; Beleza et al., 2006; Alvarez et al., 2009; Cruciani et al., 2007; Trombetta et al., 2011).
~S Triki-Fendri, A Rebai 2015 Synthetic review on the genetic relatedness between North Africa and Arabia deduced from paternal lineage distributions
quote: “North Africa, connecting sub-Saharan Africa and Eurasia, is important for understanding human history. However, the genetic history of modern humans in this region is largely unknown before the introduction of agriculture. After the Last Glacial Maximum modern humans, associated with the Iberomaurusian culture, inhabited a wide area spanning from Morocco to Libya. The Iberomaurusian is part of the early Later Stone Age and characterized by a distinct microlithic bladelet technology, complex hunter-gathering and tooth evulsion.
Here we present genomic data from seven individuals, directly dated to ~15,000-year-ago, from Grotte des Pigeons, Taforalt in Morocco. Uni-parental marker analyses show mitochondrial haplogroup U6a for six individuals and M1b for one individual, and Y-chromosome haplogroup E-M78 (E1b1b1a1) for males. We find a strong genetic affinity of the Taforalt individuals with ancient Near Easterners, best represented by ~12,000 year old Levantine Natufians, that made the transition from complex hunter-gathering to more sedentary food production. This suggests that genetic connections between Africa and the Near East predate the introduction of agriculture in North Africa by several millennia. Notably, we do not find evidence for gene flow from Paleolithic Europeans into the ~15,000 year old North Africans as previously suggested based on archaeological similarities. Finally, the Taforalt individuals derive one third of their ancestry from sub-Saharan Africans, best approximated by a mixture of genetic components preserved in present-day West Africans (Yoruba, Mende) and Africans from Tanzania (Hadza). In contrast, modern North Africans have a much smaller sub-Saharan African component with no apparent link to Hadza. Our results provide the earliest direct evidence for genetic interactions between modern humans across Africa and Eurasia.”
To Ish Gebor mtDNA doesn't exist
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: To Ish Gebor mtDNA doesn't exist
Sorry to be repetitive.
quote:“In the present work, mtDNA data show a diversified distribution of African haplogroups [...]
Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa”
~Frigi S, Cherni L, Fadhlaoui-Zid K, Benammar-Elgaaied A.
Ancient local evolution of African mtDNA haplogroups in Tunisian Berber populations.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^ You can start a thread on this in deshret forum if necessary by copying the above post and calling the topic something like "Ancestry and North African Phenotypes"
Thank you but I don't think it's a good idea to debate with people who have extremist ideas and opinions. I don't want to waste my time haha
Extremist ideas and opinions are when you fantasize about CACA-phenotypes.
Africans are the most diverse people in pheno- and genotype. The Kel have nothing to do with the caucausus mountains.
There are different Kel federations, in which the phenotype can differ. However, most have dark skin, contrary to your extremist ideas and opinions.
quote:Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History "In particular, the Tuareg have 50% to 80% of their paternal lineages E1b1b1b-M81 [34], [35]. The Tuareg are seminomadic pastoralist groups that are mostly spread between Libya, Algeria, Mali, and Niger. They speak a Berber language and are believed to be the descendants of the Garamantes people of Fezzan, Libya (500 BC - 700 CE) [34]."
~Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. Genome-Wide and Paternal Diversity Reveal a Recent Origin of Human Populations in North Africa
quote: The field seasons 2004-2006 at the necropolis of Fewet provided 33 human ske-letons in various state of preservation. A comprehensive description of the human skeletal sample is reported here, with the aim to provide anthropological data related to the emer-gence of the Garamantian society in the Fezzan. Overall, the study includes: a tentative paleodemographic profile of Fewet population; the analysis of metric and morphological features of cranial, dental, and postcranial remains; the scoring of skeletal/dental patho-logies and aspecific markers of stress. The picture of a rather poor community emerges, characterized by harsh life conditions (heavy daily work load, malnutrition, poor health status), high infant mortality, and low life expectancy among the adults. The analysis of cranial morphology at Fewet, compared to other skeletal samples from neighbouring are-as, suggests biological continuity between populations living in the Fezzan from the Late Pastoral to Roman times, together with the evidence of gene flow with other (tentatively sub-Saharan) populations. Dental dimensions are consistent with this conclusion. The sta-ture documented among adults is remarkably low. Postcranial measurements suggest a moderate division of labour between the sexes, with the females mostly devoted to activities involving the use of the upper limbs (mostly manual activities), while males used intensively the lower limbs (for walking over long distances).
Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel
He wants to hide the title of the article as well as maternal data
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: To Ish Gebor mtDNA doesn't exist
Sorry to be repetitive.
quote:“In the present work, mtDNA data show a diversified distribution of African haplogroups [...]
Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa”
~Frigi S, Cherni L, Fadhlaoui-Zid K, Benammar-Elgaaied A.
Ancient local evolution of African mtDNA haplogroups in Tunisian Berber populations.
^^ Now he further tries to divert and refers to another article about Tunisian berbers which has no mtDNA data on Tuaregs and of the other Tunisian berber groups he purposely doesn't post the mtDNA chart either.
Why do you play these games?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Now he further tries to divert and refers to another article about Tunisian berbers which has no mtDNA data on Tuaregs and of the other Tunisian berber groups he purposely doesn't post the mtDNA chart either.
Why do you play these games?
The funniest part is that you have to put several paper together. It’s a bit like a puzzle. A game.
quote: During the last glacial period, the Sahara was even bigger than it is today, extending south beyond its current boundaries (Ehret 2002). About 13,000 years ago, large parts of the Sahara were as dry as the desert is now (White and Mattingly 2006). The end of the glacial period brought more rain to the Sahara, especially from about 8500 to 6000 BC (Fezzan Project 2006). By around 3400 BC, the monsoon retreated south to approximately where it is today, leading to the gradual desertification of the region (Kröpelin 2008). Thus the Sahara, through its cyclical environmental changes, might be seen as a microevolutionary “processor” and/or “pump” of African people that “ejected” groups to the circum-Saharan regions in times of increasing aridity.
Indeed, it must be noted that the high frequencies of cDe, P, and V antigens and low frequencies of FY antigens in some Berber-speaking groups (Chamla 1980; Mourant et al. 1976) indicate affinities with tropical Africans. These data may indicate recent or ancient gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa, a common immediate pre-Holocene ancestral group, or chance resemblance.
~Frigi S, Cherni L, Fadhlaoui-Zid K, Benammar-Elgaaied A.
Ancient local evolution of African mtDNA haplogroups in Tunisian Berber populations.
Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Now he further tries to divert and refers to another article about Tunisian berbers which has no mtDNA data on Tuaregs and of the other Tunisian berber groups he purposely doesn't post the mtDNA chart either.
Why do you play these games?
The funniest part is that you have to put several paper together. It’s a bit like a puzzle. A game.
Did you get sequenced?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Now he further tries to divert and refers to another article about Tunisian berbers which has no mtDNA data on Tuaregs and of the other Tunisian berber groups he purposely doesn't post the mtDNA chart either.
Why do you play these games?
The funniest part is that you have to put several paper together. It’s a bit like a puzzle. A game.
Did you get sequenced?
No, I always have opposed it. But maybe one day, who knows.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^ You can start a thread on this in deshret forum if necessary by copying the above post and calling the topic something like "Ancestry and North African Phenotypes"
Thank you but I don't think it's a good idea to debate with people who have extremist ideas and opinions. I don't want to waste my time haha
Then why join this site in first place?
Because some people are willing to accept the truth but some fake tuareg on the internet are not ready. Also he said that North africans don't even look caucasians but biracial lol why didn't you contradict him especially after all i showed you on ABF and why did you say that negrocentrists were rare and not common ?? just look at this thread and the other one about the race of ancient egyptians.
The issue is that you can say a whole bunch of bullshit on ABF and get away with it as long as you're trying to counter black posters... The serious and respectable posters who would have took your side on ABF have been dead silent or completely left for like two years already after certain studies were published. ABF is nothing more than an aggressive race forumn at this point. And even then you had other North Africans like Tsarcastic and Dohan trying to give you warnings about your style of posting. You can name call all you want but make sure you can back up what you say here with data...
posts like this....
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: My tests show that I'm even less "arab" than the average berber but I'm arab lol and stop posting north africans from southern areas so you can claim NA's history. Be proud of your west african ancestors.
Isn't going to help here my friend lol.
You might be less putative "arab" but you're more European. you think you're among the most pure Magherbi? how much Late neolithic Moroccan do you score?
I already post my data and How do you know that coastal maghrebis were different and less european ? Especially from the late neolithic with the iberian intrusion ??
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: My tests show that I'm even less "arab" than the average berber but I'm arab lol and stop posting north africans from southern areas so you can claim NA's history. Be proud of your west african ancestors.
Your test is an "estimate". And your "test" is unsigned and unspecific. Your test according to your own claim is J1.
This remains funny.
quote:“Haplogroup E Haplogroup E is the most frequent haplogroup in Africa, but is also found in the Middle East, southern Europe and Asia (Cruciani et al., 2002; Semino et al., 2004; Karafet et al., 2008). Among its sub-clades, E-M81 and E-M78 seem to be of North African origin with Paleolithic and Neolithic expansions that reached surrounding areas (Arredi et al., 2004; Cruciani et al., 2007). Firstly, E-M81 is the most common haplogroup in North Africa showing its highest concentrations in Northwestern Africa (76 % in Saharawis in Morocco (Arredi et al., 2004)) with cline frequencies decreasing eastward: Algeria (45 %), Libya (34 %) and Egypt (10 %) (Robino et al., 2008; Triki-Fendri et al., submitted; Arredi et al., 2004)
Besides, Ottoni et al., (2011) have reported that E-M81 appear to constitute a common paternal genetic matrix in the Tuareg populations where it was encountered at high frequency (89 %). Hence, the distribution of this haplogroup in Africa closely matches the present area of Berber-speaking population’s allocation on the continent, suggesting a close haplogroup-ethnic group parallelism (Bosch et al., 2001; Cruciani et al., 2002; 2004; Arredi et al., 2004; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al., 2011; Bekada et al., 2013). However, knowing that the Berber dialects have been replaced by Arabic in North African populations, carriers of E-M81 haplogroup are currently Arab-speaking peoples whose ancestors were Berber-speaking. [...] Outside of Africa, E-M81 is almost absent in the Middle East and in Europe (with the exception of Iberia and Sicily). The presence of E-M81 in the Iberian Peninsula (12 % in southern Portugal) (Cruciani et al., 2004) has been attributed to trans-Mediterranean contacts linked to the Islamic influence, since it is typically Berber (Bosch et al., 2001; Semino et al., 2004; Beleza et al., 2006; Alvarez et al., 2009; Cruciani et al., 2007; Trombetta et al., 2011).
~S Triki-Fendri, A Rebai 2015 Synthetic review on the genetic relatedness between North Africa and Arabia deduced from paternal lineage distributions
quote: “North Africa, connecting sub-Saharan Africa and Eurasia, is important for understanding human history. However, the genetic history of modern humans in this region is largely unknown before the introduction of agriculture. After the Last Glacial Maximum modern humans, associated with the Iberomaurusian culture, inhabited a wide area spanning from Morocco to Libya. The Iberomaurusian is part of the early Later Stone Age and characterized by a distinct microlithic bladelet technology, complex hunter-gathering and tooth evulsion.
Here we present genomic data from seven individuals, directly dated to ~15,000-year-ago, from Grotte des Pigeons, Taforalt in Morocco. Uni-parental marker analyses show mitochondrial haplogroup U6a for six individuals and M1b for one individual, and Y-chromosome haplogroup E-M78 (E1b1b1a1) for males. We find a strong genetic affinity of the Taforalt individuals with ancient Near Easterners, best represented by ~12,000 year old Levantine Natufians, that made the transition from complex hunter-gathering to more sedentary food production. This suggests that genetic connections between Africa and the Near East predate the introduction of agriculture in North Africa by several millennia. Notably, we do not find evidence for gene flow from Paleolithic Europeans into the ~15,000 year old North Africans as previously suggested based on archaeological similarities. Finally, the Taforalt individuals derive one third of their ancestry from sub-Saharan Africans, best approximated by a mixture of genetic components preserved in present-day West Africans (Yoruba, Mende) and Africans from Tanzania (Hadza). In contrast, modern North Africans have a much smaller sub-Saharan African component with no apparent link to Hadza. Our results provide the earliest direct evidence for genetic interactions between modern humans across Africa and Eurasia.”
It depends which tuareg we're talking about ...Also you can be e-M81 and black so that doesn't mean anything it just confirms what I said about berbers invading the sahara and the fact that they started to mix with the native black population. Also your second quote is about Iberomaurusians who are not "berbers" but only composed one part of the genetic pool of Berbers.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^ You can start a thread on this in deshret forum if necessary by copying the above post and calling the topic something like "Ancestry and North African Phenotypes"
Thank you but I don't think it's a good idea to debate with people who have extremist ideas and opinions. I don't want to waste my time haha
Extremist ideas and opinions are when you fantasize about CACA-phenotypes.
Africans are the most diverse people in pheno- and genotype. The Kel have nothing to do with the caucausus mountains.
There are different Kel federations, in which the phenotype can differ. However, most have dark skin, contrary to your extremist ideas and opinions.
quote:Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History "In particular, the Tuareg have 50% to 80% of their paternal lineages E1b1b1b-M81 [34], [35]. The Tuareg are seminomadic pastoralist groups that are mostly spread between Libya, Algeria, Mali, and Niger. They speak a Berber language and are believed to be the descendants of the Garamantes people of Fezzan, Libya (500 BC - 700 CE) [34]."
~Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. Genome-Wide and Paternal Diversity Reveal a Recent Origin of Human Populations in North Africa
quote: The field seasons 2004-2006 at the necropolis of Fewet provided 33 human ske-letons in various state of preservation. A comprehensive description of the human skeletal sample is reported here, with the aim to provide anthropological data related to the emer-gence of the Garamantian society in the Fezzan. Overall, the study includes: a tentative paleodemographic profile of Fewet population; the analysis of metric and morphological features of cranial, dental, and postcranial remains; the scoring of skeletal/dental patho-logies and aspecific markers of stress. The picture of a rather poor community emerges, characterized by harsh life conditions (heavy daily work load, malnutrition, poor health status), high infant mortality, and low life expectancy among the adults. The analysis of cranial morphology at Fewet, compared to other skeletal samples from neighbouring are-as, suggests biological continuity between populations living in the Fezzan from the Late Pastoral to Roman times, together with the evidence of gene flow with other (tentatively sub-Saharan) populations. Dental dimensions are consistent with this conclusion. The sta-ture documented among adults is remarkably low. Postcranial measurements suggest a moderate division of labour between the sexes, with the females mostly devoted to activities involving the use of the upper limbs (mostly manual activities), while males used intensively the lower limbs (for walking over long distances).
Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel
He wants to hide the title of the article as well as maternal data
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: To Ish Gebor mtDNA doesn't exist
Sorry to be repetitive.
quote:“In the present work, mtDNA data show a diversified distribution of African haplogroups [...]
Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa”
~Frigi S, Cherni L, Fadhlaoui-Zid K, Benammar-Elgaaied A.
Ancient local evolution of African mtDNA haplogroups in Tunisian Berber populations.
^^ Now he further tries to divert and refers to another article about Tunisian berbers which has no mtDNA data on Tuaregs and of the other Tunisian berber groups he purposely doesn't post the mtDNA chart either.
Why do you play these games?
As I said he's not objective unfortunately
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^ You can start a thread on this in deshret forum if necessary by copying the above post and calling the topic something like "Ancestry and North African Phenotypes"
Thank you but I don't think it's a good idea to debate with people who have extremist ideas and opinions. I don't want to waste my time haha
Then why join this site in first place?
Because some people are willing to accept the truth but some fake tuareg on the internet are not ready. Also he said that North africans don't even look caucasians but biracial lol why didn't you contradict him especially after all i showed you on ABF and why did you say that negrocentrists were rare and not common ?? just look at this thread and the other one about the race of ancient egyptians.
The issue is that you can say a whole bunch of bullshit on ABF and get away with it as long as you're trying to counter black posters... The serious and respectable posters who would have took your side on ABF have been dead silent or completely left for like two years already after certain studies were published. ABF is nothing more than an aggressive race forumn at this point. And even then you had other North Africans like Tsarcastic and Dohan trying to give you warnings about your style of posting. You can name call all you want but make sure you can back up what you say here with data...
posts like this....
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: My tests show that I'm even less "arab" than the average berber but I'm arab lol and stop posting north africans from southern areas so you can claim NA's history. Be proud of your west african ancestors.
Isn't going to help here my friend lol.
You might be less putative "arab" but you're more European. you think you're among the most pure Magherbi? how much Late neolithic Moroccan do you score?
Don't worry my friend I do not get discouraged quickly and I have plenty of data here to support my claims.
Posted by Askia_The_Great (Member # 22000) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^ You can start a thread on this in deshret forum if necessary by copying the above post and calling the topic something like "Ancestry and North African Phenotypes"
Thank you but I don't think it's a good idea to debate with people who have extremist ideas and opinions. I don't want to waste my time haha
Then why join this site in first place?
Because some people are willing to accept the truth but some fake tuareg on the internet are not ready. Also he said that North africans don't even look caucasians but biracial lol why didn't you contradict him especially after all i showed you on ABF and why did you say that negrocentrists were rare and not common ?? just look at this thread and the other one about the race of ancient egyptians.
You labeled this entire site as "extremist" not fit to argue with. So why join in first place?
Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: I already post my data and How do you know that coastal maghrebis were different and less european ? Especially from the late neolithic with the iberian intrusion ?? [/QB]
I thought Eurogenes incoorperated the Late neolithic morrocans into his K36... To which you'd only be 30% with padded Iberian and east Med. I also was fortunate enough to have already seen how you compare to other Modern Maghrebis.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: I already post my data and How do you know that coastal maghrebis were different and less european ? Especially from the late neolithic with the iberian intrusion ??
I thought Eurogenes incoorperated the Late neolithic morrocans into his K36... To which you'd only be 30% with padded Iberian and east Med. I also was fortunate enough to have already seen how you compare to other Modern Maghrebis. [/QB]
No big difference between me and other maghrebis. I also know some berbers from the souss region and they all almost score 100% berber and also break some records :
I don't recognize this webpage/interface is this company saying this person is scoring 60% Taforalt? If so can you post an img of this person.
Otherwise.. you're still more Arab and European than everyone of these results though ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
And aren't you banking on widespread population replacement by Iberian invaders to explain the North African gene pool (and phenotype)?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
It depends which tuareg we're talking about ...Also you can be e-M81 and black so that doesn't mean anything it just confirms what I said about berbers invading the sahara and the fact that they started to mix with the native black population. Also your second quote is about Iberomaurusians who are not "berbers" but only composed one part of the genetic pool of Berbers
I am going to try this again.
Where do most of the Tuareg reside?
And no, it doesn’t support anything you are claiming. You have to be an idiot to think it does.
And it was about Gobero, but it’s remarkable funny when you make claims like Iberomaurusians is not a Berber component, yet you keep posting about Iberomaurusians as a prop for Berbers.
Anyway, perhaps you can explain what happened to the 30% ancestry from sub-Saharan Africans, found in the Taforalt?
Finally, the Taforalt individuals derive one third of their ancestry from sub-Saharan Africans, best approximated by a mixture of genetic components preserved in present-day West Africans (Yoruba, Mende) and Africans from Tanzania (Hadza).
It’s something that was suspected a long time ago.
quote:In contrast to the local Upper Palaeolithic relationships of the Natufian population of the Levant, the North African remains from Afalou and Taforalt indicate possible influences from sub Saharan Africa at that time.
~Arensburg et al. 1995
quote:
Within E-M35, there are striking parallels between two haplogroups, E-V68 and E-V257. Both contain a lineage which has been frequently observed in Africa (E-M78 and E-M81, respectively) [6], [8], [10], [13]–[16] and a group of undifferentiated chromosomes that are mostly found in southern Europe (Table S2). An expansion of E-M35 carriers, possibly from the Middle East as proposed by other Authors [14], and split into two branches separated by the geographic barrier of the Mediterranean Sea, would explain this geographic pattern. However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East (Table S2) makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis. A detailed analysis of the Y chromosomal microsatellite variation associated with E-V68 and E-V257 could help in gaining a better understanding of the likely timing and place of origin of these two haplogroups.
--Beniamino Trombetta, Fulvio Cruciani et al. (2011)
A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2) Revealed through the Use of Newly Characterized Binary Polymorphisms
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Ish Gebor links everything right?
wrong. The chart above is from an article called
Yeah, I link a lot. One has to wonder what is being “claimed” as “Eurasian, and what is meant by that. You act as if it’s some magical component.
quote: Haplogroup L1b roots deeply in the human mtDNA phylogeny and has the characteristic motif 16126, 16187, 16189, 16223, 16264, 16270, 116278, 16311.
[...]
Our results also point to a less ancient western African gene flow to Tunisia involving haplogroups L2a and L3b. Thus the sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africa starting from the east would have taken place before the Neolithic. The western African contribution to North Africa should have occurred before the Sahara’s formation (15,000 BP).
[...]
The dates for subhaplogroups H1 and H3 (13,000 and 10,000 years, respectively) in Iberian and North African populations allow for this possibility. Kefi et al.’s (2005) [data on ancient DNA could be viewed as being in agreement with such a presence in North Africa in ancient times (about 15,000–6,000 years ago) and with the fact that the North African populations are considered by most scholars as having their closest relations with European and Asian populations (Cherni et al. 2008; Ennafaa et al. 2009; Kefi et al. 2005; Rando et al. 1998). How- ever, considering the general understanding nowadays that human settlement of the rest of the world emerged from eastern northern Africa less than 50,000 years ago, a better explanation of these haplogroups might be that their frequencies re- flect the original modern human population of these parts of Africa as much as or more than intrusions from outside the continent. The ways that gene frequencies may increase or decrease based on adaptive selection, gene flow, and/or social processes is under study and would benefit from the results of studies on autosomal and Y-chromosome markers.
[...]
results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
~Frigi et al.
quote: Focusing on the North African component at k = 6, we found that a migration event from North Africa to Europe would have occurred at least 6–10 generations ago (∼240–300 ya) in Spain, and at least 5–7 generations ago in France and Italy (Fig. 4).
[...]
Whereas inferred IBD sharing does not indicate directionality, the North African samples that have highest IBD sharing with Iberian populations also tend to have the lowest proportion of the European cluster in ADMIXTURE (Fig. 1), e.g., Saharawi, Tunisian Berbers, and South Moroccans. For example, the Andalucians share many IBD segments with the Tunisians (Fig. 3), who present extremely minimal levels of European ancestry. This suggests that gene flow occurred from Africa to Europe rather than the other way around.
~Laura R. Botiguéa,1, Brenna M. Henn et al
Gene flow from North Africa contributes to differential human genetic diversity in southern Europe (July 16, 2013)
quote:
The Mesolithic–Neolithic transition in southern Iberia
Resumen: New data and a review of historiographic information from Neolithic sites of the Malaga and Algarve coasts (southern Iberian Peninsula) and from the Maghreb (North Africa) reveal the existence of a Neolithic settlement at least from 7.5 cal ka BP. The agricultural and pastoralist food producing economy of that population rapidly replaced the coastal economies of the Mesolithic populations. The timing of this population and economic turnover coincided withmajor changes in the continental and marine ecosystems, including upwelling intensity, sea-level changes and increased aridity in the Sahara and along the Iberian coast. These changes likely impacted the subsistence strategies of the Mesolithic populations along the Iberian seascapes and resulted in abandonments manifested as sedimentary hiatuses in some areas during the Mesolithic–Neolithic transition. The rapid expansion and area of dispersal of the early Neolithic traits suggest the use of marine technology. Different evidences for a Maghrebian origin for the first colonists have been summarized.
The recognition of an early North-African Neolithic influence in Southern Iberia and the Maghreb is vital for understanding the appearance and development of the Neolithic in Western Europe. Our review suggests links between climate change, resource allocation, and population turnover.
~Cortés-Sánchez, Miguel Et al.
The Mesolithic–Neolithic transition in southern Iberia
quote: Haplogroup H dominates present-day Western European mitochondrial DNA variability (>40%), yet was less common (~19%) among Early Neolithic farmers (~5450 BC) and virtually absent in Mesolithic hunter-gatherers. Here we investigate this major component of the maternal population history of modern Europeans and sequence 39 complete haplogroup H mitochondrial genomes from ancient human remains. We then compare this 'real-time' genetic data with cultural changes taking place between the Early Neolithic (~5450 BC) and Bronze Age (~2200 BC) in Central Europe. Our results reveal that the current diversity and distribution of haplogroup H were largely established by the Mid Neolithic (~4000 BC), but with substantial genetic contributions from subsequent pan-European cultures such as the Bell Beakers expanding out of Iberia in the Late Neolithic (~2800 BC). Dated haplogroup H genomes allow us to reconstruct the recent evolutionary history of haplogroup H and reveal a mutation rate 45% higher than current estimates for human mitochondria.
~Brotherton P1, Haak W, Templeton J,
Nat Commun. 2013;4:1764. doi: 10.1038/ncomms2656.
Neolithic mitochondrial haplogroup H genomes and the genetic origins of Europeans.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: My tests show that I'm even less "arab" than the average berber but I'm arab lol and stop posting north africans from southern areas so you can claim NA's history. Be proud of your west african ancestors.
I'm curious, would you pass as black in any nation that has a black race?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Nassbean left building
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote: L2a is not restricted to sub-Saharan Africa and when found in supra-Saharan Africa is not present only due to chattel slavery or recent population movements, asis usually reported. [...] Current analyses of mtDNA with respect to Hispanics/Latinos and persons of African descent are underrepresented and researchers continue to lump them into monomorphic groups. Africans possess the most genetic diversity, thus it is a misnomer to continue delimiting “Africans” or “Blacks” simply as haplogroup L from sub-Saharan Africa, when North Africa (supra-Saharan Africa) is very much a part of the African genetic continuum. [...] This is a curious view when one considers that the Eurasian hapolgroups M and N, which gave rise to Europeans and Asians are of African origin and still exist within African populations [29, 30].
~J. Gaillard1 and R. Reid Challenges to Analysis of Ancestral Inference Using Mitochondrial DNA Hypervariable Region 1 SNP Typing
International Journal of Health Sciences June 2014, Vol. 2, No. 2, pp. 01-15
What those people created there as "regionals" is a bunch of gobble da gook.
quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: My tests show that I'm even less "arab" than the average berber but I'm arab lol and stop posting north africans from southern areas so you can claim NA's history. Be proud of your west african ancestors.
I'm curious, would you pass as black in any nation that has a black race?
If correct, this is the dude (of Eurasian, North Arabic origin) who is posting all this anti-sub Saharan/ Southern Saharan rhetoric on the internet. Making these weird "caucasian" claims left and right.
He could pass for someone, Southern Europe / and France. But certainly not Western European, Germanic stock.
Admin warning:
Doxing is NOT allowed
[ 16. August 2023, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: Askia_The_Great ]
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Nassbean left building
He may have left, but there are a lot of crumbs all over the place.
He claimed the Jebala as indigenous to (North) Africa, because he's a fraud.
He basically posted an entire thread with people from those surroundings.
"The Jebala (Arabic: جبالة, romanized: Jbala), is a group of Berber mountain people with partial Morisco roots, which inhabit north-west Morocco. The Jebala people inhabit the plains from the city of Targuist to the west, in contrast with the Riff people inhabiting the plains from Targuist to the east." [...] The word Jbala comes from Arabic (Arabic: جبلJbel) which means mountain. Thus Jbala means mountain people. A man or boy is called a Jebli while a woman or a girl is called a Jebliya.”
1) Actas Del Segundo Congreso Árabe Marroquí: Estudio, Enseñanza Y Apredizaje. Francisco Moscoso García, Luis Miguel Pérez Cañada, Nadi Hamdi Nouaouri. 2007. Universidad de Cadiz. 2) Jump up to: a b ‹See Tfd›(in French) S. Levy, EDNA n°1 (1996), Reperes pour une histoire linguistique du Maroc, pp. 127–137 3) Jump up to: a b c d Tribe and Society in Rural Morocco Door David M. Hart 4) Diedrich Westermann, Edwin William Smith, Cyril Daryll Forde Oxford University Press, 1939.
It's almost funny because in most of these trolling "geneticist" and trolling genetic papers they swear by that none of this history exists.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
MORISCOS. First recorded in 1500, the term Moriscos denotes Muslims who converted to Christianity after the fall of Granada in 1492. In effect, Morisco constitutes a highly ambiguous religious-ethnic designator. From Muslims living near the Ebro River in Aragon to long-standing Castilian Mudéjares (Muslim subjects of the Christian monarchs) and from Valencian Muslims tied to local seigneurs to the conquered communities of Granada, this great variety of Muslim peoples converted to Christianity at various times and under different circumstances.
__________________________________
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
"The Jebala (Arabic: جبالة, romanized: Jbala), is a group of Berber mountain people with partial Morisco roots
So they are partially former Muslims of ambiguous ethnicity who were living in Spain that had been taken over by Moorish armies from North Africa. And then after Islam was outlawed, under threat of death they were pressured into converting to Islam after the Muslims lost control
So if they were partially moriscos
What was their other part?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^ He's typical looking for many people who regard themselves as berbers (Amazigh) in Morocco but berber groups can vary widely depending on which one
Depending on who you ask some Moroccans say they are 100% Arab but others say they are 100% Amazigh and this can also be influenced by religious and political implications but it seems respectful to let them call themselves what they want According to the constitution Morocco is an African, Arab, Amazigh and Muslim country.
This is a complex topic with no easy answers. There are about 34 Million people in Morocco. Most figures put the Berber population of Morocco at around 40 percent. An estimated 12 million speak berber languages.
^^ Look at the lack of Y-Dna J here That is the predominant Arab haplogroup
Admin warning:
Doxing is NOT allowed.
[ 16. August 2023, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: Askia_The_Great ]
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Depending on who you ask some Moroccans say they are 100% Arab but others say they are 100% Amazigh and this can also be influenced by religious and political implications but it seems respectful to let them call themselves what they want According to the constitution Morocco is an African, Arab, Amazigh and Muslim country.
This babble is irrelevant to me.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: He's typical looking for many people who regard themselves as berbers (Amazigh) in Morocco but berber groups can vary widely depending on which one
You are hilarious. People confuse Turkish (etc.) and Moroccans all the time over here. Yet, ethnically they are distinct.
Your picture spam will not help you. The more you go to the South the more people tend to look dark-skinned and "Africoid". And this is probably due to invasions at the coastal regions.
Y-DNA J what? When you speak of E you always go to the nitty-gritty, separate and split, you need to do the same for Y-DNA J.
And this template totally contradicts that “genealogy company”. As posted by mr. Bean.
And the royal family is of Arabic descent.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
MORISCOS. First recorded in 1500, the term Moriscos denotes Muslims who converted to Christianity after the fall of Granada in 1492. In effect, Morisco constitutes a highly ambiguous religious-ethnic designator. From Muslims living near the Ebro River in Aragon to long-standing Castilian Mudéjares (Muslim subjects of the Christian monarchs) and from Valencian Muslims tied to local seigneurs to the conquered communities of Granada, this great variety of Muslim peoples converted to Christianity at various times and under different circumstances.
__________________________________
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
"The Jebala (Arabic: جبالة, romanized: Jbala), is a group of Berber mountain people with partial Morisco roots
So they are partially former Muslims of ambiguous ethnicity who were living in Spain that had been taken over by Moorish armies from North Africa. And then after Islam was outlawed, under threat of death they were pressured into converting to Islam after the Muslims lost control
So if they were partially moriscos
What was their other part?
Actually, ethnically the Moriscos are Portuguese /Spaniards.
quote: Morisco, (Spanish: “Little Moor”), one of the Spanish Muslims (or their descendants) who became baptized Christians.
[...]
An estimated 300,000 Moriscos relocated mainly in Algeria, Tunisia, and Morocco, where again they found themselves an alien element. They were assimilated after several generations, but something of their Spanish heritage has survived into modern times.
quote: The established population of the Iberian Peninsula prior to 711 CE has been estimated at 7–8 million people, ruled by about 200,000 Germanic Visigoths,19 who had entered from the north in the sixth century. Though the initial invading North African force was between 10,000 and 15,000 strong, the scale of subsequent migration and settlement is uncertain, with some claiming numbers in the hundreds of thousands.
[...]
After the overthrow of Islamic rule in most of the peninsula, a period of tolerant coexistence (convivencia) ensued in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, but after 1492 (1496 in Portugal), religious intolerance forced Spanish Muslims to either convert to Christianity (as so-called moriscos) or leave.23 After the fifteenth century, moriscos were relocated across Spain on occasion, and, finally, during 1609–1616, over 200,000 were expelled, mostly from Valencia.
[...]
This distribution could reflect genetic drift, as well as the history of enforced relocations and expulsion of moriscos. The entire large community of moriscos in Granada was relocated northward and westward following the war of 1567–1571.23 In addition, the final expulsion of moriscos, ordered by Philip III and beginning in1609, was highly effective in some regions of Spain, including Valencia and Western Andalucia, but less so in Galicia and Extremadura, where the population was more dispersed and integrated.
Good post. He essentially has no post antiquity SSA... but looks like he’d score more SSA than you, interesting stuff.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
Good post. He essentially has no post antiquity SSA... but looks like he’d score more SSA than you, interesting stuff.
Actually with those G25 results we can see that it's the same situation for my people (riffians) and honestly he could be part of my family he doesn't look atypical for my region. He's from the souss region Btw
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
Here new result from kabylia (Algeria) :
his G25 result :
and his face :
Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
Can you show North African examples with clear Arab ancestry in Nmonte G25.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: Can you show North African examples with clear Arab ancestry in Nmonte G25.
these examples are all from libya i've never found any maghrebi being mainly arab anyway here take a look :
results from a south-west libyan who is J1 btw
Here so you can compare a moroccan J1 :
and here a tunisian with clear ME influence ( now is it an arab influence or a phoenician one?)
so as we can see big difference between them and berbers. This difference seems to be mainly based on the natufian component with other ME components like the kurdish and iranian one.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Here new result from kabylia (Algeria) :
his G25 result :
and his face :
I see a heavy concentration of green which is “West North Africa”. And an even greater concentration of red, but on the map I can’t find it? Why is that? It’s a serious question.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Here new result from kabylia (Algeria) :
his G25 result :
and his face :
I see a heavy concentration of green which is “West North Africa”. And an even greater concentration of red, but on the map I can’t find it? Why is that? It’s a serious question.
I don't understand what do you mean ?
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
here as you can see guanches were similar to modern coastal north africans (like me). It should be said that guanches never faced any kind of foreign invasions or slave trade so this break the myth of modern north africans being invaders :
Tsk tsk. Of course Canary Islanders were enslaved by Iberians. link Hey! Where dem quotes from that bishop or his pope?
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Tsk tsk. Of course Canary Islanders were enslaved by Iberians. link Hey! Where dem quotes from that bishop or his pope?
We're talking about guanches who lived way before the iberian invasion ...these samples are from the late antiquity and the beginning of the middle age
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
We? Who's this we?
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: It should be said that guanches * never faced any kind of foreign invasions * or slave trade so this break the myth of modern north africans being invaders "
Iberians invaded the Canaries of your precious indigenous 'Guanches'. After invading the archipelago Iberians enslaved the indigenous islanders including the Gaunches.
These are inescapable facts of history.
Your statement was falsified. Quit worming. If you deny facts in favor of fantasies you're just pushing your personal agenda and not at all interested in learning.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Is this actually an indigenous Canary Islander?
George Glas' 1764 translation of an older Spanish document says they were darker than people of southern Spain and their hair was black and bushy. I use Canarians instead of Guanches because only the people of northern Tenerife are the Guanches and only this small subset were light in colour.
Juan de Abreu de Galindo, trans George Glas The History of the Discovery and Conquest of the Canary Islands Palmas, 1632 London, 1764 pp.281-282
Guanches are a small minority of the Canarians. They only inhabited the north of Tenerife.
Besides the north part of Tenerife we have to consider the central and south parts of Tenerife along with the great bulk of the Canary Islands: 2 - Alegranza 3 - El Hierro 4 - Fuerteventura 5 - Gran Canaria 6 - Isla de Lobos 7 - La Gomera 8 - Lanzarote 9 - La Graciosa 10 - La Palma 11 - Montaña Clara 12 - Roque del Este 13 - Roque del Oeste.
We have seen them documented as darker skinned than southern Spaniards and having bushy hair black in color.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] Is this actually an indigenous Canary Islander?
George Glas' 1764 translation of an older Spanish document says they were darker than people of southern Spain and their hair was black and bushy. I use Canarians instead of Guanches because only the people of northern Tenerife are the Guanches and only this small subset were light in colour.
The mummy above is not dark skinned with bushy hair?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Pope Eugene IV was concerned with the enslaving of only those Canarians who had already converted to Christianity.
To that effect the pope issued several bulls. * Creator Omnium (1434) "Creator of all" * Sicut dudum (1435) "As long" * Romanus pontifex (1436) "Pope of Rome"
Regimini gregis (1475) "Royal flock" was a later bull from Pope Sixtus IV reinforcing excommunication for enslaving Christians.
Sicut dudum has recently been sensationalized as colour based edict when in fact it was religion based so disregard the newly added propagandist subtitle here.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Who says "Modern North Africans" are invaders? First off which "Modern North Africans" are we speaking about? Second when it comes to Leuko-Berbers the conventional explanation is that they are native with admixture from Europeans, specifically European females. Also from migrations from the Middle East, which is what you biodiversity google scholars also claim, is it not?
You can try to Eurasianize the Berbers all you want but these Berbers/North Africans still exist..
Africa | A Berber woman dressed for the celebration of Moussem. | Location: Tarhjijt, Morrocco. Image credit Oliver Martel
A Berber woman wears her prized silver jewelry at a friend’s wedding. Akka, Morocco
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: here as you can see guanches were similar to modern coastal north africans (like me). It should be said that guanches never faced any kind of foreign invasions or slave trade so this break the myth of modern north africans being invaders :
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
No Al, the Pope Eugene IV was just a We Wuz Kangs Afrocentrist trying to steal leuko-off white berber history, the Biodiversity google scholars know more about the Canarians than the Spiritual Leader of the first European people to come in contact with the Canarians...
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Pope Eugene IV was concerned with the enslaving of only those Canarians who had already converted to Christianity.
To that effect the pope issued two bulls. * Creator Omnium (1434) * Sicut dudum (1435) "Just as Long Ago"
Regimini gregis (1475) was a later bull from Pope Sixtus IV reinforcing excommunication for enslaving Christians.
Sicut dudum has been sensationalized as colour based edict when in fact it was religion based so disregard the newly added subtitle here.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Interestingly enough I took a DNA test and got distant matches with the Canary Islands..after reading that it makes sense.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Tsk tsk. Of course Canary Islanders were enslaved by Iberians. link Hey! Where dem quotes from that bishop or his pope?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
not dna but
Per Sergi my head shape is Canarian I don't believe head shape is strictly indicatve of geo-pop origin. My offspring is 5 pointed ellipse?!?
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
Tukuler it seems you don't understand smh The guanche samples I posted are from old eras way before iberian came and enslaved them and they were similar to modern north africans stop trying to darkwash them for your agendas.
so as you can all see I have no arab ancestors and my euro ancestry is quite low.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Who says "Modern North Africans" are invaders? First off which "Modern North Africans" are we speaking about? Second when it comes to Leuko-Berbers the conventional explanation is that they are native with admixture from Europeans, specifically European females. Also from migrations from the Middle East, which is what you biodiversity google scholars also claim, is it not?
You can try to Eurasianize the Berbers all you want but these Berbers/North Africans still exist..
Africa | A Berber woman dressed for the celebration of Moussem. | Location: Tarhjijt, Morrocco. Image credit Oliver Martel
A Berber woman wears her prized silver jewelry at a friend’s wedding. Akka, Morocco
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: here as you can see guanches were similar to modern coastal north africans (like me). It should be said that guanches never faced any kind of foreign invasions or slave trade so this break the myth of modern north africans being invaders :
These are not indigenous north africans. They are haratins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haratin). Also I just posted my results where are your so called big euro component or arab one ?
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
You're not even comprehending what he's saying, he's not talking about Guanches but other inhabitants of the Canary Islands.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Tukuler it seems you don't understand smh The guanche samples I posted are from old eras way before iberian came and enslaved them and they were similar to modern north africans stop trying to darkwash them for your agendas.
so as you can all see I have no arab ancestors and my euro ancestry is quite low.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: You're not even comprehending what he's saying, he's not talking about Guanches but other inhabitants of the Canary Islands.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Tukuler it seems you don't understand smh The guanche samples I posted are from old eras way before iberian came and enslaved them and they were similar to modern north africans stop trying to darkwash them for your agendas.
so as you can all see I have no arab ancestors and my euro ancestry is quite low.
Modern canarians are not berbers so what's your point ? I'm talking about guanches the pre-hispanic population of the canary islands just read the study I posted about them. Scientists are clear ancient guanches were similar to modern north africans which means north africans aren't different from their ancient ancestors.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
^^^^Nasa I assume your English comprehension is poor because its not your native tongue. Al(Tukuler) didnt say anything about Modern Canarians or Guanches, he posted evidence that there were Natives of the Canaries besides the Guanches that were NOT described as white but much darker and even Black as in the case with the Papal Bull.
This isnt really a surprise considering that there are Darker skinned Berbers as well as white.
Btw, none of those women I posted were Heratin, they're Berbers and natives of North Africa. I dont even see why in 2020 this is even a debate...
I dont really get you Bidoviersity scholars, you're so committed to your agenda that you've resort to draconian over the top tactics used by the Afrocentrics you claim to hate, I.e trying to pretend that people with certain skin colors are'nt native to Africa...In your case indigenous Dark skinned/Black berbers exist.
You guys are Afrocentrics turned inside-out... The Media just likes you more.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Post primary written evidence of Dark Skinned/Black natives of Canary Islands-Pretend its not relevant, focus on the ONE tribe of Gruanches
Post pictures of Light Brown skinned Berbers(Who probably dont even Identify as Black BTW)-Pretend they are Heratin...
You act like we have'nt debated people like you before and shut down your tired biodiversity arguments...
You act like we have'nt acknowledged that Tawny and Leuko Berbers are'nt native to Coastal North Africa going back to pre-historic if not Early historic times...I mean we did reveal and discuss these "white" Lybians who adorn the walls of Ancient Egypt as Yellow-Pale Subjugated people to the Reddish-Brown Sutens years before you decided to read Forum-Biodiversity, 4-chan or what ever google-scholar forum you enrolled in after watching your first phonecian7 video.
You're boring compared to past Biodiversity google scholars...no one here is even arguing against your premise
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^^Nasa I assume your English comprehension is poor because its not your native tongue. Al(Tukuler) didnt say anything about Modern Canarians or Guanches, he posted evidence that there were Natives of the Canaries besides the Guanches that were NOT described as white but much darker and even Black as in the case with the Papal Bull.
This isnt really a surprise considering that there are Darker skinned Berbers as well as white.
Btw, none of those women I posted were Heratin, they're Berbers and natives of North Africa. I dont even see why in 2020 this is even a debate...
I dont really get you Bidoviersity scholars, you're so committed to your agenda that you've resort to draconian over the top tactics used by the Afrocentrics you claim to hate, I.e trying to pretend that people with certain skin colors are'nt native to Africa...In your case indigenous Dark skinned/Black berbers exist.
You guys are Afrocentrics turned inside-out... The Media just likes you more.
No I perfectly understood but he doesn't really know what he's talking about : yes guanches were a specific tribe on a specific island but that was during the time of the colonization Now in the scientific sphere we use the term guanche to talk about all the indigenous inhabitants of those islands that's why the genetic study I posted have samples from MULTIPLE islands not only gran canaria and yes north africans tend to be darker than iberians i don't see what's surprising here you all are just trying to find any little detail that can support your filthy agenda. Have a bit of respect for us and the african diversity Africa is a continent not your country and afro americans like you descend from west africans you have nothing to do with north africa. Even if the whole world was black you're still not related to all of them. I will never claim Persia because persians can look like north africans sometimes that's crazy. tukuler is an afrocentrist with a deep inferiority complex but facts are facts there is no genetic or anthropological study that supports that ancient north africans were black and there are no studies who support the idea of modern north africans being non-indigenous quite the opposite actually.
The women you posted are haratin I know better my region than you go visit north africa and ask them and you'll see that themselves will tell you that they are haratin but with a berber or arab culture.
I also posted my results why do you avoid them ? If you test the black woman you posted they will score a huge ssa % while I don't have any big euro,arab or ssa component I'm therefore indigenous (the moors,numidians,carthaginians all looked like me)
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
Btw ABF is back bring your friends with you
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Sigh
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: [qb] No I perfectly understood but he doesn't really know what he's talking about : yes guanches were a specific tribe on a specific island but that was during the time of the colonization Now in the scientific sphere we use the term guanche to talk about all the indigenous inhabitants of those islands that's why the genetic study I posted have samples from MULTIPLE islands not only gran canaria
What does this have to do with the primary evidence Al posted about Dark/Black natives of the Canary? Ill wait. Like I said your reading comprehension is lacking to say the least.
quote:and yes north africans tend to be darker than iberians i don't see what's surprising here you all are just trying to find any little detail that can support your filthy agenda.
What "filthy agenda" Posting PRIMARY F-CKING EVIDENCE is an agenda?
quote:Have a bit of respect for us and the african diversity Africa is a continent
Who argued other wise, didnt I say that White/Tawny Berbers are native to the f-king continent, or are you going to keep playing games pretending you're not the one arguing against African diversity.
Why dont you have respect and stop pretending that the fact of black/brown Berbers isnt some conspiracy...
quote:not your country and afro americans like you descend from west africans you have nothing to do with north africa.
Shut up, You dont know me or who the hell my ancestors are. I do have North African and Canary Ancestors, After all Canarians were enslaved along with West Africans at some point.
Also I dont claim North Africa, never have never will, you people dont even have anything worth claiming. The Spanish Visigoths had high culture before you and Arabs invaded them, and you ADOPTED their culture and made it Islamic, Even the Caliphs of Cordoba(The highlight of Moorish Spain) were White Europeans with minute Arab blood. You have nothing I would want to claim, you were a nomadic people with no high culture to speak of, while the Swahili were sailing to Australia and India, the Mali were building universities, the Shona etc...all of whom are my ancestors.
Moorish culture is the most over-hyped over rated in all of history, the Swahili did what you did on African soil and w/o the help of White Visogoths, Jews, and other non Africans.
quote:Even if the whole world was black you're still not related to all of them. I will never claim Persia because persians can look like north africans sometimes that's crazy.
Even if all of North Africa were white, you're whining and crying wont change the fact that primary evidence points to native Brown/Black Berbers...
NOTHING YOU BIO-DIVERSITY RACISTS DO WILL CHANGE THATSo cry me a river..
quote:The women you posted are haratin I know better my region than you go visit north africa and ask them and you'll see that themselves will tell you that they are haratin but with a berber or arab culture.
Like I said you're boring None of those women are Heratin nor do they even resemble Heratin, I mean you do realize I can post more people right? You do realize other Biodiverity google scholars have tried the same crap you are right...
quote:I also posted my results why do you avoid them ? If you test the black woman you posted they will score a huge ssa % while I don't have any big euro,arab or ssa component I'm therefore indigenous (the moors,numidians,carthaginians all looked like me)
Who argued otherwise Nassa? Who is saying you're not native/indigenous Nassa?
Calm down and actually read, no one is arguing against what you're saying, you're creating your own demons.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
The only people who I claim or feel connected to who are'nt my direct Ancestors are the Ethiopians...
I dont know what ABF is...sorry
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Sigh
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: [qb] No I perfectly understood but he doesn't really know what he's talking about : yes guanches were a specific tribe on a specific island but that was during the time of the colonization Now in the scientific sphere we use the term guanche to talk about all the indigenous inhabitants of those islands that's why the genetic study I posted have samples from MULTIPLE islands not only gran canaria
What does this have to do with the primary evidence Al posted about Dark/Black natives of the Canary? Ill wait. Like I said your reading comprehension is lacking to say the least.
quote:and yes north africans tend to be darker than iberians i don't see what's surprising here you all are just trying to find any little detail that can support your filthy agenda.
What "filthy agenda" Posting PRIMARY F-CKING EVIDENCE is an agenda?
quote:Have a bit of respect for us and the african diversity Africa is a continent
Who argued other wise, didnt I say that White/Tawny Berbers are native to the f-king continent, or are you going to keep playing games pretending you're not the one arguing against African diversity.
Why dont you have respect and stop pretending that the fact of black/brown Berbers isnt some conspiracy...
quote:not your country and afro americans like you descend from west africans you have nothing to do with north africa.
Shut up, You dont know me or who the hell my ancestors are. I do have North African and Canary Ancestors, After all Canarians were enslaved along with West Africans at some point.
Also I dont claim North Africa, never have never will, you people dont even have anything worth claiming. The Spanish Visigoths had high culture before you and Arabs invaded them, and you ADOPTED their culture and made it Islamic, Even the Caliphs of Cordoba(The highlight of Moorish Spain) were White Europeans with minute Arab blood. You have nothing I would want to claim, you were a nomadic people with no high culture to speak of, while the Swahili were sailing to Australia and India, the Mali were building universities, the Shona etc...all of whom are my ancestors.
quote:Even if the whole world was black you're still not related to all of them. I will never claim Persia because persians can look like north africans sometimes that's crazy.
Even if all of North Africa were white, you're whining and crying wont change the fact that primary evidence points to native Brown/Black Berbers...
NOTHING YOU BIO-DIVERSITY RACISTS DO WILL CHANGE THATSo cry me a river..
quote:The women you posted are haratin I know better my region than you go visit north africa and ask them and you'll see that themselves will tell you that they are haratin but with a berber or arab culture.
Like I said you're boring None of those women are Heratin nor do they even resemble Heratin, I mean you do realize I can post more people right? You do realize other Biodiverity google scholars have tried the same crap you are right...
quote:I also posted my results why do you avoid them ? If you test the black woman you posted they will score a huge ssa % while I don't have any big euro,arab or ssa component I'm therefore indigenous (the moors,numidians,carthaginians all looked like me)
Who argued otherwise Nassa? Who is saying you're not native/indigenous Nassa?
Calm down and actually read, no one is arguing against what you're saying, you're creating your own demons.
Lol I just read what he posted I don't see what contradict what I said yes darker than spaniards with black eyes and hair ...like modern north africans. People back then were well aware of black people why didn't they say that they look like black people ?
Now let's see what the study tell us :
just the title give the answer lol Genomic Analyses of Pre-European Conquest Human Remains from the Canary Islands Reveal Close Affinity to Modern North Africans
key word : canary islands and pre-european
let's begin with this :
Previously published ancient DNA analyses of uniparental genetic markers have shown that the Guanches carried common North African Y chromosome markers (E-M81, E-M78, and J-M267) and mitochondrial lineages such as U6b, in addition to common Eurasian haplogroups [6, 7, 8]. These results are in agreement with some linguistic, archaeological, and anthropological data indicating an origin from a North African Berber-like population [1, 4, 9].
"To resolve this, we generated the first genome-wide sequence data and mitochondrial genomes from eleven archaeological Guanche individuals originating from Gran Canaria and Tenerife. Five of the individuals (directly radiocarbon dated to a time transect spanning the 7th–11th centuries CE) yielded sufficient autosomal genome coverage (0.21× to 3.93×) for population genomic analysis. Our results show that the Guanches were genetically similar over time and that they display the greatest genetic affinity to extant Northwest Africans, strongly supporting the hypothesis of a Berber-like origin. "
" All individuals predate the European colonization of the Canary Islands (15th century) and one predates the Muslim conquest of the Maghreb (7th–8th centuries), events that have had significant impact on the gene pool of the Canary Islands and North Africa, respectively (Figure S1B) [6, 12]. Hence, our sample is a good representative of the pre-conquest aboriginals."
So as I said you don't really know what you're talking about.
(P.S : I've never denied that some north africans are black they exist and are berbers but from a genetic point of view they are foreigner who have a big west african component and have no relation to ancient north africans unlike berbers like me. They were brought during the slave trade and some even descend from the abid al bukhari the black army of Moulay Ismail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Guard just this black guard had more black people that all the arabs and europeans who came in morocco)
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
I'll excuse your miscomprehension until you actually quote what I posted and then show internally that it's not about autochthones. After that you must quote me say Canarians are anything but a North African population. Per PCA and ADMIXTURE they're closest to pre-Saharans re * the Chotts and Eastern Erg (Tunisia/Algeria) thru to * the Erg Iguidi (near where Democratic Saharawi Arab Republic/Mauritania/Algeria/Morocco all meet). Would you like to read Greco-Latin authors about the people there?
Until you do that your replies to me are thoughtless reactionary prejudiced and biased assumption of who I am and what I represent, totally ignoring the actual Canaries evidences I present. But then the racism of coastal North Africans particularly, Amazighcentrists, is well known.
Use of agenda is trite, like you or everybody else doesn't have agaendas.
I don't care what your private genetics may be from whatever company prepared your report. You are 1/5th Iberian per that report which could indicate a Spanish grandparent. Perhaps this is why you don't have the darker than Spaniard complexion of either the posted Canary mummy or the textual description of native Canarians.
You assert the Canarians that Iberians encountered there in the Canaries were already mixed with Iberians. Fuh-nee!
You asserting natives were instantly metis as soon as Iberians put one foot on shore? Wow!
Sources please.
Addenda Haratin are indigenous Saharans who were Masters of the Waters (foggaras wells irrigation streams). They are just as much N Afr as any metis Kabyle etc. Problem is you ignore Euro mix and act like it didn't effect you coastals more than any.
There was no population isolation ever in its history or pre-history. North Africa is always absorbing people from the south, east, and north since the Epi-Paleolithic.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Tukuler it seems you don't understand smh The guanche samples I posted are from old eras way before iberian came and enslaved them and they were similar to modern north africans stop trying to darkwash them for your agendas.
so as you can all see I have no arab ancestors and my euro ancestry is quite low.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
This guy if fighting ghosts, debating arguments that are not even there.
TBH this is what happens with most of these biodiversity google scholars, they're so paranoid and angry, they cant even think straight let alone have a decent debate.
They remind me of the Stephen King Character from the short story "The Langoliers", Mr. Toomy, so under pressure and stress to the point where He snaps in a normal situation when the pressure and stress is removed.
Like I said they're boring, senseless repetitive chest beating on arguments we are not even denying...
Yawn...
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: You can shake your head till it falls off and still the Canaries info I posted is about the indigenous population of the archipelago.
I'll excuse your miscomprehension until you actually quote what I posted and then show internally that it's not about autochthones. After that you must quote me say Canarians are anything but a North African population. Per PCA and ADMIXTURE they're closest to pre-Saharans re * the Chotts and Eastern Erg (Tunisia/Algeria) thru to * the Erg Iguidi (near where Democratic Saharawi Arab Republic/Mauritania/Algeria/Morocco all meet).
Until you do that your replies to me are thoughtless reactionary prejudiced and biased assumption of who I am and what I represent, totally ignoring the actual Canaries evidences I present. But then the racism of coastal North Africans particularly, Amazighcentrists, is well known.
Use of agenda is trite, like you or everybody else doesn't have agaendas.
I don't care what your private genetics may be from whatever company prepared your report. You are 1/5th Iberian per that report which could indicate a Spanish grandparent. Perhaps this is why you don't have the darker than Spaniard complexion of either the posted Canary mummy or the textual description of native Canarians.
You assert the Canarians that Iberians encountered there in the Canaries were already mixed with Iberians. Fuh-nee!
You asserting natives were instantly, with metis as soon as Iberians put one foot on shore? Wow!
Sources please.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Tukuler it seems you don't understand smh The guanche samples I posted are from old eras way before iberian came and enslaved them and they were similar to modern north africans stop trying to darkwash them for your agendas.
so as you can all see I have no arab ancestors and my euro ancestry is quite low.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: You can shake your head till it falls off and still the Canaries info I posted is about the indigenous population of the archipelago.
I'll excuse your miscomprehension until you actually quote what I posted and then show internally that it's not about autochthones. After that you must quote me say Canarians are anything but a North African population. Per PCA and ADMIXTURE they're closest to pre-Saharans re * the Chotts and Eastern Erg (Tunisia/Algeria) thru to * the Erg Iguidi (near where Democratic Saharawi Arab Republic/Mauritania/Algeria/Morocco all meet).
Until you do that your replies to me are thoughtless reactionary prejudiced and biased assumption of who I am and what I represent, totally ignoring the actual Canaries evidences I present. But then the racism of coastal North Africans particularly, Amazighcentrists, is well known.
Use of agenda is trite, like you or everybody else doesn't have agaendas.
I don't care what your private genetics may be from whatever company prepared your report. You are 1/5th Iberian per that report which could indicate a Spanish grandparent. Perhaps this is why you don't have the darker than Spaniard complexion of either the posted Canary mummy or the textual description of native Canarians.
You assert the Canarians that Iberians encountered there in the Canaries were already mixed with Iberians. Fuh-nee!
You asserting natives were instantly, with metis as soon as Iberians put one foot on shore? Wow!
Sources please.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Tukuler it seems you don't understand smh The guanche samples I posted are from old eras way before iberian came and enslaved them and they were similar to modern north africans stop trying to darkwash them for your agendas.
so as you can all see I have no arab ancestors and my euro ancestry is quite low.
Which evidence are you talking about ? Yes guanches were enslaved and yes guanches looked like modern north africans (which means overall darker than spaniards) you just supported what I said thanks. Also I posted a study made on the berber pre-european population of the islands and they were similar to modern north africans why do you avoid this piece of evidence ?
also yes they were already admixed with iberians but it seems you don't know much about genetics :
By 3,000 BCE, a continuity in the Neolithic spread brought Mediterranean-like ancestry to the Maghreb, most likely from Iberia. Other archaeological remains, such as African elephant ivory and ostrich eggs found in Iberian sites, confirm the existence of contacts and exchange networks through both sides of the Gibraltar strait at this time. Our analyses strongly support that at least some of the European ancestry observed today in North Africa is related to prehistoric migrations, and local Berber populations were already admixed with Europeans before the Roman conquest. Furthermore, additional European/Iberian ancestry could have reached the Maghreb after KEB people; this scenario is supported by the presence of Iberian-like Bell-Beaker pottery in more recent stratigraphic layers of IAM and KEB caves. Future paleogenomic efforts in North Africa will further disentangle the complex history of migrations that forged the ancestry of the admixed populations we observe today.
so again bring real facts or don't waste your time answering me.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Oh now I get it U just trollin baiting any fish willing to bite Ain't that right Beur?
This thread should be moved to Deshret Forum where it belongs.
According to your girl Helene Hagan, Moroccans were upset Haratin were rounded up into the Black Guard. You can't even get your own Amazigh activist propaganda right.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Jari
You right
This suckah so misguided he can't even see where what he 'cites' backs up the facts I posted.
you must quote me say Canarians are anything but a North African population.
Per PCA and ADMIXTURE they're closest to pre-Saharans re * the Chotts and Eastern Erg (Tunisia/Algeria) thru to * the Erg Iguidi (near where Democratic Saharawi Arab Republic/Mauritania/Algeria/Morocco all meet).
Would you like to read Greco-Latin authors about the people living there?
Thx 4 saving me the time to copy and post it.
Wait lemme circle it so Beur boor can better see the obvious.
Now c'mon and post the K=10 ADMIXTURE showing the Saharawi near identity why don't you please.
If you were focused on presenting facts instead of pursing Amazighcentrism NorthAfrocentricism you'd see you're inventing imaginary enemies just to be at odds with those blacks just like your Amazigh activist mistresses direct you to do.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: As I said the PCA indicates Tunisia/Algeria Thx 4 saving me the time to copy and post it. Now c'mon and post the ADMIXTURE showing the Saharawi near identity why don't you please.
If you were focused on presenting facts instead of pursing Amazighcentrism NorthAfrocentricism you'd see you're inventing imaginary enemies just to be at odds with those blacks just like your Amazigh activist mistresses direct you to do.
Do you even know which samples they used for "sahrawis" lol certainly not the haratin one ...but guanches plot close to riffians not sahrawis.
Now c'mon and post the K=10 ADMIXTURE showing the Saharawi near identity why don't you please
.
OK then, be that way and don't share the knowledge. Here 'tis anyhow, aboriginal Canarians, red underscore, just where I said.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Now c'mon and post the K=10 ADMIXTURE showing the Saharawi near identity why don't you please
.
OK then, be that way and don't share the knowledge. Here 'tis anyhow, aboriginal Canarians, red underscore, just where I said.
Thanks for proving my point they were similar to modern north africans ( they even had a bit less ssa lol) and as I said they already had a european component.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Ah, at last you admit to arguing with yourself. About time too. So go back and reread dispassionately without trying to pick a fight.
OK after verbal statements weren't getting through so had to post the PCA and ADMIXTURE behind the point
Uniparental data Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Ah, at last you admit to arguing with yourself. About time too. So go back and reread dispassionately without trying to pick a fight.
OK after verbal statements weren't getting through so had to post the PCA and ADMIXTURE behind the point
Uniparental data
If you reread my answers I already talked about their haplogroups ...so what's your point ? you keep proving my point.
I will add more details about those haplogroups :
"Observed haplogroups agree with previous studies [33,36–39,41], indicating the presence of North African (U6), Eurasian (H, J2, T2 and X) and sub-Saharan African lineages (L1 and L3) in the Canarian indigenous population (S2 Fig). Asdelineated before [36], the majority of haplogroups observed are of Eurasian origin, most witha Mediterranean distribution. This result is expected, as recent aDNA data from North Africahas indicated the presence of Neolithic European lineages as early as the Late Neolithic period(~5,000 BP)"
"Two sublineages of haplogroup J are observed in the indigenous population of the CanaryIslands: J1c3 and the newly defined J2a2d1a1. J1c3 is present in Europe, North Africa and theNear East, and more interestingly, in ancient Neolithic samples from Spain and Sardinia (S9Fig). Although J2a2d1a has been spotted in Central North Africa, subhaplogroup J2a2d1a1 isexclusive to the Canary Islands and Brazil, the latter representing an area with known histori-cal migrations from the islands (S10 Fig). "
"We identify several ancient samples within macrohaplogroup L, belonging to L1b1a andthe newly defined L3b1a12. Although current mtDNA analysis evidences the presence of Sub-Saharan lineages into North Africa in the Early Holocene [84], Later Stone Age [85], and Earlyand Late Neolithic [73] samples from North Africa have not showed any mtDNA lineage ofsub-Saharan origin." "The lack of overlapbetween the mtDNA composition of Phoenicians and the Canarian indigenous people dis-agrees with either a Punic-Phoenician origin for the ancient islanders or sustained contactbetween the two populations"
". It is worth mentioning that, compared with current North African samples,IAM and KEB do not show any sub-Saharan African ancestry in the MEGA-HGDP ADMIXTURE analysis, suggesting that trans-Saharan migrations occurred after Neolithic times. This could be in agreement with the analysis of present-day genome-wide datafrom Morocco, which estimated a migration of western African origin into Morocco only ~1,200 y ago"
1200 years ago ...well well exactly when the trans-saharan slave trade started.
and about genetic continuity in North Africa :
"We show that Early Neolithic Moroccans (~5,000 BCE) are similar to Later Stone Age individuals from the same region and possess an endemic element retained in present-day Maghrebi populations, confirming a long-term genetic continuity in the region. "
It's over Tukuler as I said no genetic studies support your afrocentrists claims ...Ancient north africans looked like me certainly not bantus or afro-americans lol
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
I will also add this :
"reveals close affinity to modern Northwest African populations such as Tunisians and Algerians, but with a tendency (especially for individuals from Gran Canaria) to occupy a space outside modern Northwest African variation, closer to Europeans (Figures 2 and S2). However, outgroup f3 statistics [19] suggest that the Guanches share more genetic drift with non-African test populations than with African test populations , including Northwest African populations of Berber origin (Data S1, sheet 2). This observation is inconsistent with the PCA and the uniparental genetic marker data, indicating that the outgroup f3 statistic may be misleading, possibly due to the complex history of recent sub-Saharan admixture events in North African populations [12, 21]"
So as I've said multiple times before ancient north africans were similar to coastal berbers not haratin or ssa shifted north africans who are the product of the trans-saharan slave trade.
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: It's over Tukuler as I said no genetic studies support your afrocentrists claims ...Ancient north africans looked like me certainly not bantus or afro-americans lol
Phenotype =/= genotype. I know racists enjoy the presumption that genetic likeness is the same as phenotypic race but its not. Regardless of what the genetics were, In Egypt southern Egyptians resembled Nubians and Ethiopians. Northern/Coastal peoples who assimilated into the dominant culture of Egypt and "Nubia" might've been more inclusive of your phenotype, but the south not so much.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: So as I've said multiple times before ancient north africans were similar to coastal berbers not haratin or ssa shifted north africans who are the product of the trans-saharan slave trade.
"Ancient North Africans" were very diverse as a group and cover a very long span of time. We are nowhere close from having an image of all of north Africa across time and space. One of the biggest problems with the whole "slave trade" argument is that North African ancestry that is shared with (some) modern SSAs, is not shared by those taken in slave trade routes:
quote: Furthermore, SSA groups indicated to have contributed to modern Egypt do not match the Muslim trade routes that have been well documented as SSA groups from the great lakes and southern African regions were largely absent in the internal trading routes that went north to Egypt.
Saying it's from the trans Saharan slave trade makes as much sense as saying it's from the trans Atlantic slave trade.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ase:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: It's over Tukuler as I said no genetic studies support your afrocentrists claims ...Ancient north africans looked like me certainly not bantus or afro-americans lol
Phenotype =/= genotype. I know racists enjoy the presumption that genetic likeness is the same as phenotypic race but its not. Regardless of what the genetics were, In Egypt southern Egyptians resembled Nubians and Ethiopians. Northern/Coastal peoples who assimilated into the dominant culture of Egypt and "Nubia" might've been more inclusive of your phenotype, but the south not so much.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: So as I've said multiple times before ancient north africans were similar to coastal berbers not haratin or ssa shifted north africans who are the product of the trans-saharan slave trade.
"Ancient North Africans" were very diverse as a group and cover a very long span of time. We are nowhere close from having an image of all of north Africa across time and space. One of the biggest problems with the whole "slave trade" argument is that North African ancestry that is shared with (some) modern SSAs, is not shared by those taken in slave trade routes:
quote: Furthermore, SSA groups indicated to have contributed to modern Egypt do not match the Muslim trade routes that have been well documented as SSA groups from the great lakes and southern African regions were largely absent in the internal trading routes that went north to Egypt.
Saying it's from the trans Saharan slave trade makes as much sense as saying it's from the trans Atlantic slave trade.
Sure phenotype doesn't equal genotype but where is the limit ? Modern coastal north africans who looks totally different from SSA groups have the closest genetic profile to guanches for example and I also posted a quote from the study showing that they weren't black so why would it be different for ancient north africans ? The people who score the highest amount of the indigenous NA component don't look black so it's enough to say they looked like me.
"ancient north africans were very diverse" ..sure so it can fit your agenda. Ancient North africans were probably less diverse than the current ones it's obvious the trans-saharan slave trade has affected us way too much :
". It is worthmentioning that, compared with current North African samples,IAM and KEB do not show any sub-Saharan African ancestry in theMEGA-HGDP ADMIXTURE analysis, suggesting that trans-Saharan migrations occurred after Neolithic times. This could bein agreement with the analysis of present-day genome-wide datafrom Morocco, which estimated a migration of western Africanorigin into Morocco only ~1,200 y ago "
" Our most recent estimated dates correlate with sub-Saharan admixture in North Africa, which is continuous during the last few centuries (from the 13th century to the 20th century, see cluster L in fig. 5), as previously suggested by historical records (Newman 1995) and genetic data (Harich et al. 2010; Henn et al. 2012).However, it is noteworthy that very precise dates are found in some cases in the 17th century in western clusters (see cluster K and M). The admixture dates in the 17th century could be the consequence of the trans-Saharan slave trade that resulted from the Ottoman rule in North Africa and the arrival of the Crown of Castile and the Portuguese Kingdom to the West African seaports in the 16th century. The Iberian presence, driven by the search of a workforce in their recent settled Atlantic territories, modified the political and socioeconomic structure of Western Africa. This also intensified traffic through trans-Saharan routes to North Africa after the emergence of the sugar industry in this region and the Atlantic territories (Newman 1995; Oliver and Atmore 2001; Da Mosto 2003). Comparison of inferred ancestry proportions between the autosomes and X chromosome in Cluster M is indicative of sex-biased admixture with an overabundance of males with Middle Eastern (Syrian-like) ancestry and females with sub-Saharan African (Yoruba-like) ancestry. Moreover, we infer a lower proportion of sub-Saharan ancestry older than previously described in all admixture events dated from the first century B.C., which could be attributed to more ancient slave trade during the Roman or Islamic periods, such as the servile Haratin population of Nilo-Saharan origin in Berber groups such as the Sanhadja and Zenata (Newman 1995). Caution is warranted, however, as there are serious difficulties in reliably estimating the proportions contributed by each source population in the admixture events, mainly because the lack of a proper ancestral North African population. In our analyses, we have considered the population from Tunisia Chenini as the best proxy, but genetic drift in Chenini samples due to isolation and interbreeding might substantially underestimate the contribution of the autochthonous ancestral groups in extant North African populations."
Stop denying it it's obvious. The sahara is the biggest desert on earth and therefore was one of the strongest genetic barrier...you think it was as easy as today with our planes and cars ??
Yes some north africans are and were "black"/bantu looking but they are and always were a tiny minority present in the southernmost regions of North africa and they always have been marginalized.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Just let these biodiversity google scholars rant, and their agenda and tactics become clear. Like I said these new ones are boring, ranting and raving against straw opponents and deflecting to the same tired arguments again and again...
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Yes some north africans are and were "black"/bantu looking /QB]
quote:Ancient north africans looked like me certainly not bantus or afro-americans lol
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: [
(P.S : I've never denied that some north africans are black they exist and are berbers but from a genetic point of view they are foreigner who have a big west african component and have no relation )
Posted by One Third African (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Just let these biodiversity google scholars rant, and their agenda and tactics become clear. Like I said these new ones are boring, ranting and raving against straw opponents and deflecting to the same tired arguments again and again...
For what it's worth, I don't have a problem with lighter-skinned people being present in North Africa during ancient times. What I would dispute is that they've always represented the entire region's population like some of these Amazigh nationalists have claimed or implied. Certainly, I doubt the proto-Afrasan people from Northeast Africa who moved into the Maghreb and gave rise to the earliest Libyco-Berber speakers looked anything like Nassbean and his buddies.
Doesn't Y-DNA data suggest that Amazigh speakers underwent a recent bottleneck a couple thousand years ago? Somebody on ForumBiodiversity correlated it with the Punic Wars and the destruction of Carthage. If so, modern Berbers may represent only a fraction of the diversity of ancient North Africa.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by One Third African:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Just let these biodiversity google scholars rant, and their agenda and tactics become clear. Like I said these new ones are boring, ranting and raving against straw opponents and deflecting to the same tired arguments again and again...
For what it's worth, I don't have a problem with lighter-skinned people being present in North Africa during ancient times. What I would dispute is that they've always represented the entire region's population like some of these Amazigh nationalists have claimed or implied. Certainly, I doubt the proto-Afrasan people from Northeast Africa who moved into the Maghreb and gave rise to the earliest Libyco-Berber speakers looked anything like Nassbean and his buddies.
Doesn't Y-DNA data suggest that Amazigh speakers underwent a recent bottleneck a couple thousand years ago? Somebody on ForumBiodiversity correlated it with the Punic Wars and the destruction of Carthage. If so, modern Berbers may represent only a fraction of the diversity of ancient North Africa.
Obviously north africans don't look like proto-afroasiatic people smh never heard of Capsians ? never heard of KEB? Never heard of the trans-saharan slave trade ? I just posted tons of quotes and studies why do you avoid them ?
You're delusional if you think people like egyptians, juba II , tacfarinas, Hannibal looked bantu lol We have testimonials, mosaics, busts, statues, paintings, anthropological data , genetic data but you keep denying it ...why such dishonesty ? Ok you care about black people and how they are treated all around the world but It's not a reason to distord history and disrespect us. I find it weird that most of your drawings are about us why don't you made more drawings about zulus, songhai kings, swahili people, kush, axum , etc ? Is it because you don't really consider those civilizations as impressive/great compared to what north africans have made ? Is it because you know afrocentrists are obsessed with us instead of their real bantu ancestors ?
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Obviously, no one is denying that Leuko-and Tawny white Berbers existed in Coastal North Africa from pre-historic times. They're depicted as Pale-yellow contrasting the Darker Brown Egyptians who are lighter than the black Neheshi on the tombs of Egypt.
No one is denying this, as far as I can tell. Nassa is a paranoid google scholar who needs at all costs to perpetuate his victim mentality to push his agenda.
quote:Originally posted by One Third African:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Just let these biodiversity google scholars rant, and their agenda and tactics become clear. Like I said these new ones are boring, ranting and raving against straw opponents and deflecting to the same tired arguments again and again...
For what it's worth, I don't have a problem with lighter-skinned people being present in North Africa during ancient times. What I would dispute is that they've always represented the entire region's population like some of these Amazigh nationalists have claimed or implied. Certainly, I doubt the proto-Afrasan people from Northeast Africa who moved into the Maghreb and gave rise to the earliest Libyco-Berber speakers looked anything like Nassbean and his buddies.
Doesn't Y-DNA data suggest that Amazigh speakers underwent a recent bottleneck a couple thousand years ago? Somebody on ForumBiodiversity correlated it with the Punic Wars and the destruction of Carthage. If so, modern Berbers may represent only a fraction of the diversity of ancient North Africa.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Ahh Yes...The Tired and True...They didnt look like the "True Blubbery Lipped Pitch black Negro"....argument....Just substitute Negro with Bantu, wash and repeat.
Its worked wonders for years with Biodiversity google scholars....
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: You're delusional if you think people like egyptians, juba II , tacfarinas, Hannibal looked bantu lol
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Ahh Yes...The Tired and True...They didnt look like the "True Blubbery Lipped Pitch black Negro"....argument....Just substitute Negro with Bantu, wash and repeat.
Its worked wonders for years with Biodiversity google scholars....
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: You're delusional if you think people like egyptians, juba II , tacfarinas, Hannibal looked bantu lol
focus on your west african ancestors you're not related to any ancient north african people. You can use all the rhetoric you want I talk with facts.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Obviously, no one is denying that Leuko-and Tawny white Berbers existed in Coastal North Africa from pre-historic times. They're depicted as Pale-yellow contrasting the Darker Brown Egyptians who are lighter than the black Neheshi on the tombs of Egypt.
No one is denying this, as far as I can tell. Nassa is a paranoid google scholar who needs at all costs to perpetuate his victim mentality to push his agenda.
quote:Originally posted by One Third African:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Just let these biodiversity google scholars rant, and their agenda and tactics become clear. Like I said these new ones are boring, ranting and raving against straw opponents and deflecting to the same tired arguments again and again...
For what it's worth, I don't have a problem with lighter-skinned people being present in North Africa during ancient times. What I would dispute is that they've always represented the entire region's population like some of these Amazigh nationalists have claimed or implied. Certainly, I doubt the proto-Afrasan people from Northeast Africa who moved into the Maghreb and gave rise to the earliest Libyco-Berber speakers looked anything like Nassbean and his buddies.
Doesn't Y-DNA data suggest that Amazigh speakers underwent a recent bottleneck a couple thousand years ago? Somebody on ForumBiodiversity correlated it with the Punic Wars and the destruction of Carthage. If so, modern Berbers may represent only a fraction of the diversity of ancient North Africa.
These leucoderm berbers represent the great great majority of ancient north africans...black north africans were probably even less common than what we can see today
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Igroring your stupid irrelevant previous rant ....
Possibly, from the Art work and Greco-Latin descriptions the Tawny and Leuko Berbers were dominant, the Black Berbers/North Africans probably dominated in the Saharan regions.
Though Id say going back to Green Sahara phase "Blacks" were probably dominant..
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Obviously, no one is denying that Leuko-and Tawny white Berbers existed in Coastal North Africa from pre-historic times. They're depicted as Pale-yellow contrasting the Darker Brown Egyptians who are lighter than the black Neheshi on the tombs of Egypt.
No one is denying this, as far as I can tell. Nassa is a paranoid google scholar who needs at all costs to perpetuate his victim mentality to push his agenda.
quote:Originally posted by One Third African:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Just let these biodiversity google scholars rant, and their agenda and tactics become clear. Like I said these new ones are boring, ranting and raving against straw opponents and deflecting to the same tired arguments again and again...
For what it's worth, I don't have a problem with lighter-skinned people being present in North Africa during ancient times. What I would dispute is that they've always represented the entire region's population like some of these Amazigh nationalists have claimed or implied. Certainly, I doubt the proto-Afrasan people from Northeast Africa who moved into the Maghreb and gave rise to the earliest Libyco-Berber speakers looked anything like Nassbean and his buddies.
Doesn't Y-DNA data suggest that Amazigh speakers underwent a recent bottleneck a couple thousand years ago? Somebody on ForumBiodiversity correlated it with the Punic Wars and the destruction of Carthage. If so, modern Berbers may represent only a fraction of the diversity of ancient North Africa.
These leucoderm berbers represent the great great majority of ancient north africans...black north africans were probably even less common than what we can see today
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
You are a NorthAfrocentric I am not an Afrocentric Africa is not the center of everything and Afroeccentricity ideas are invalid in my eyes.
Problem is racists like you rather than actual read and understand just revert to stereotyping and putting words in the mouth.
You don't have the slightest idea what my stance is on North Africans who are not a monolithic block.
I'm an African black and I'm not baNtu. Unfortunately my people are prejudiced against Bantu.
Looks vary from Sahara to pre-Sahara to Atlas to Tell to MedCoast.
Nassbean claims to be closest to Gun08 Incapable of independent analysis Nassbean can only mindlessly regurgitate what he reads and whats inline with Northafrocentric nonsense Amazigh activist propaganda Gun08 is L3b1a What irony
quote:Central and West Africa
The most common L3 lineages in Central and West Africa are L3b, L3d, L3e, and L3f, and apart from the latter, they most probably all originated within this region. L3b has a rare subbranch (L3b2) and one widespread subbranch (L3b1) with the frequency focus in Central/West Africa (fig. 3D). L3b1 has point estimates between 12.6 and 17.6 ka (depending on the clock), and its most common subclade, L3b1a, has point estimates of 11.7–14.8 ka, with starlike patterns suggesting involvement in major expansion.
L3b1a existed in Western Sahara before the southward demographic expansion of Berbers fleeing Arab invasion.
L3b1a dominates non-Guanche (tribe only inhabited northern Tenerife) ancient Gran Canaria. It positively dates there to the 10th century.
Nassbean descends from Niger-Congo or Chadic originating L3b1a female deep lineage by his own chest thumping.
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
quote:Sure phenotype doesn't equal genotype but where is the limit ?
Limit? You have Aboriginals that were the first to leave Africa being discriminated against as BLACK people, and you're concerned about a "limit?" The "limit" is the extent to which you can demonstrate phenotypic continuity. And as you've brought up marginalization, let's also emphasize that the "limit" is the extent to where we can prove the dominant culture had phenotypic continuity as well.
quote:Modern coastal north africans who looks totally different from SSA groups have the closest genetic profile to guanches for example and I also posted a quote from the study showing that they weren't black so why would it be different for ancient north africans ?
You showed a study that is at best discussing genetics. Phenotype is not the same thing. Many North Africans may look "totally different" than blacks, but that doesn't mean that the people living in North Africa in ancient times looked "totally different." Even if we were to presume genetic continuity for ancient and modern North Africans, this doesn't always mean phenotypic continuity. When phenotype is measured, certain groups of ancient North Africans (like the Older/Southern Upper Egyptians) much more closely resemble Ethiopian Sub Saharan Africans. Research on the matter has demonstrated that in certain northern African countries (again like Egypt, which is one of the most researched), changes had happened. Most Egyptians were Upper Egyptians in the past and the local communities most responsible for creating the dominant culture were in southern upper Egypt. Towards the New Kingdom the dominant phenotype of the Upper Egyptian changed to reflect phenotypes more common among assimilated northern Egyptians and Near Eastern immigrants (who'd for a period even took over the country).
quote:Yes some north africans are and were "black"/bantu looking but they are and always were a tiny minority present in the southernmost regions of North africa and they always have been marginalized.
First, they're not a "tiny" minority. Did everyone catch that when he said "black" he specifically emphasized the idea of blacks being "bantu-looking?" Already (consciously or unconsciously) he has been conditioned and readied to deliver the "true negro" fallacy. Ethiopians may not as often look like Nigerians, but the phenotype is still racially black.
And no, people with a black phenotype weren't "always" marginalized across all time periods in North Africa. One of the greatest examples of this goes back to Egypt. The Ancient Upper Egyptian phenotype for example was akin to Nubians and modern Ethiopians. The dominant culture was being practiced from Ethiopian looking peoples that lived in local communities like Ta-Seti, Hierakanopolis, Abydos and Naqada. Northern coastal types were assimilated into the civilization developing in southern Egypt/northern Sudan after they were colonized. The northern phenotype towards the new Kingdom then expanded after years of mixing with southerners of the same nationality followed by centuries of mass (NE) immigration starting in the second millennium B.C.
Not ironically: that's the around time when the African Sahara dried to the point where it went from a Sahel like climate, to the type of desert it is now. Mass famines were happening. Climate change forced many people living in the Middle East to seek refuge in North Africa—the Nile especially. Which brings us to our next point…
quote:Stop denying it it's obvious. The sahara is the biggest desert on earth and therefore was one of the strongest genetic barrier...you think it was as easy as today with our planes and cars ??
That's a very... loaded conclusion that has little concept of geographical nuances across time. You write like you assume climates to be stagnant and without change. Being that our conversations are mostly about Egypt I'll be again using it as an example. Egypt in case you didn't know, has had a whole ass river that could be used to transport and nourish people, so long as they kept their affairs not too far from the river. And, if memory serves me, Egypt (and much of North Africa's) climate was more Sahel like in ancient times up until 2.2k BC.
Are you saying the people of the Sahel overwhelmingly express this phenotype?
That black looking people do not travel through it everyday? Nonsense. Assuming a desert at the severity of the Sahara could truly be a "genetic barrier," that would've happened towards the end of the Old Kingdom and towards the 4.2 kiloyear event. This is around the time that even those at the Max Planck institute (the guys that did that Abusir study) admit that a wave of immigration from Canaan had occurred. Oh and the researchers before them just so happen to say that towards the New Kingdom, the coastal/northern phenotype becomes dominant? The leaders of ancient Egypt just so happened to complain about their country being overrun with Asiatics when none were living there? Uh huh.
I'm sure the phenotypic landscape and power dynamics along those lines is precisely as it was in ancient times [lol, no]. Well documented evidence that Asiatics poured into North Africa in response to climate change is to be ignored. The fact that the non-blacks that were there before climate change (in some countries at least) were assimilated to cultures that had been made by Ethopian looking North Africans is to be ignored. But any Blacks in North Africa should be chalked up to the "slave trade." People will continue to cry about the “slave trade” even when genetic review doesn't trace the ancestry to Muslim trading routes, or when research finds an Ethiopian-type phenotype has been in North Africa since ancient times.
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: You're delusional if you think people like egyptians, juba II , tacfarinas, Hannibal looked bantu lol
Bantu isn’t the only way to look black
Oh noes, those Upper Egyptians that created Egyptian culture look like modern…Ethiopians?
quote:focus on your west african ancestors you're not related to any ancient north african people. You can use all the rhetoric you want I talk with facts.
If Blacks research Northern Africans, it suddenly matters in research who’s related ancient North Africans. But when Europeans come to research any type of ancient population, many of the same anti-black North Africans have their lips puckered to for it to fall on a soft white ass. When you tell ALL groups of people to stop researching North African people, then maybe it won’t sound as ridiculous. You're nervous about racial implications and masking it behind accusations of us being averse to West African history. It would be easier to hide that too if racism in North Africa weren't so heavy. You in particular couldn't even IMAGINE a period of time where blackness existed in north Africa (and was not subject to discrimination).
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: You are a NorthAfrocentric I am not an Afrocentric Africa is not the center of everything and Afroeccentricity ideas are invalid in my eyes.
Problem is racists like you rather than actual read and understand just revert to stereotyping and putting words in the mouth.
You don't have the slightest idea what my stance is on North Africans who are not a monolithic block.
I'm an African black and I'm not baNtu. Unfortunately my people are prejudiced against Bantu.
Looks vary from Sahara to pre-Sahara to Atlas to Tell to MedCoast.
Nassbean claims to be closest to Gun08 Incapable of independent analysis Nassbean can only mindlessly regurgitate what he reads and whats inline with Northafrocentric nonsense Amazigh activist propaganda Gun08 is L3b1a What irony
quote:Central and West Africa
The most common L3 lineages in Central and West Africa are L3b, L3d, L3e, and L3f, and apart from the latter, they most probably all originated within this region. L3b has a rare subbranch (L3b2) and one widespread subbranch (L3b1) with the frequency focus in Central/West Africa (fig. 3D). L3b1 has point estimates between 12.6 and 17.6 ka (depending on the clock), and its most common subclade, L3b1a, has point estimates of 11.7–14.8 ka, with starlike patterns suggesting involvement in major expansion.
L3b1a existed in Western Sahara before the southward demographic expansion of Berbers fleeing Arab invasion.
L3b1a dominates non-Guanche (tribe only inhabited northern Tenerife) ancient Gran Canaria. It positively dates there to the 10th century.
Nassbean descends from Niger-Congo or Chadic originating L3b1a female deep lineage by his own chest thumping.
Man it's crazy how you don't really know what you're talking about smh ...what does an haplogroup have to do with the autosomal composition of someone ? Since when do haplogroups play a role on the phenotype of someone ?
Also I will add this :
" mtDNA macrohaplogroup L3 matured in Eurasia and returned to Africa as basic L3 lineages around 70 kya." "The split of the Y-chromosome composite DE haplogroup is very similar to the age of mtDNA L3. A Eurasian origin and back migration to Africa has been proposed for the African Y-chromosome haplogroup E. Inside Africa, frequency distributions of maternal L3 and paternal E lineages are positively correlated.""
quote:Sure phenotype doesn't equal genotype but where is the limit ?
Limit? You have Aboriginals that were the first to leave Africa being discriminated against as BLACK people, and you're concerned about a "limit?" The "limit" is the extent to which you can demonstrate phenotypic continuity. And as you've brought up marginalization, let's also emphasize that the "limit" is the extent to where we can prove the dominant culture had phenotypic continuity as well.
quote:Modern coastal north africans who looks totally different from SSA groups have the closest genetic profile to guanches for example and I also posted a quote from the study showing that they weren't black so why would it be different for ancient north africans ?
You showed a study that is at best discussing genetics. Phenotype is not the same thing. Many North Africans may look "totally different" than blacks, but that doesn't mean that the people living in North Africa in ancient times looked "totally different." Even if we were to presume genetic continuity for ancient and modern North Africans, this doesn't always mean phenotypic continuity. When phenotype is measured, certain groups of ancient North Africans (like the Older/Southern Upper Egyptians) much more closely resemble Ethiopian Sub Saharan Africans. Research on the matter has demonstrated that in certain northern African countries (again like Egypt, which is one of the most researched), changes had happened. Most Egyptians were Upper Egyptians in the past and the local communities most responsible for creating the dominant culture were in southern upper Egypt. Towards the New Kingdom the dominant phenotype of the Upper Egyptian changed to reflect phenotypes more common among assimilated northern Egyptians and Near Eastern immigrants (who'd for a period even took over the country).
quote:Yes some north africans are and were "black"/bantu looking but they are and always were a tiny minority present in the southernmost regions of North africa and they always have been marginalized.
First, they're not a "tiny" minority. Did everyone catch that when he said "black" he specifically emphasized the idea of blacks being "bantu-looking?" Already (consciously or unconsciously) he has been conditioned and readied to deliver the "true negro" fallacy. Ethiopians may not as often look like Nigerians, but the phenotype is still racially black.
And no, people with a black phenotype weren't "always" marginalized across all time periods in North Africa. One of the greatest examples of this goes back to Egypt. The Ancient Upper Egyptian phenotype for example was akin to Nubians and modern Ethiopians. The dominant culture was being practiced from Ethiopian looking peoples that lived in local communities like Ta-Seti, Hierakanopolis, Abydos and Naqada. Northern coastal types were assimilated into the civilization developing in southern Egypt/northern Sudan after they were colonized. The northern phenotype towards the new Kingdom then expanded after years of mixing with southerners of the same nationality followed by centuries of mass (NE) immigration starting in the second millennium B.C.
Not ironically: that's the around time when the African Sahara dried to the point where it went from a Sahel like climate, to the type of desert it is now. Mass famines were happening. Climate change forced many people living in the Middle East to seek refuge in North Africa—the Nile especially. Which brings us to our next point…
quote:Stop denying it it's obvious. The sahara is the biggest desert on earth and therefore was one of the strongest genetic barrier...you think it was as easy as today with our planes and cars ??
That's a very... loaded conclusion that has little concept of geographical nuances across time. You write like you assume climates to be stagnant and without change. Being that our conversations are mostly about Egypt I'll be again using it as an example. Egypt in case you didn't know, has had a whole ass river that could be used to transport and nourish people, so long as they kept their affairs not too far from the river. And, if memory serves me, Egypt (and much of North Africa's) climate was more Sahel like in ancient times up until 2.2k BC.
Are you saying the people of the Sahel overwhelmingly express this phenotype?
That black looking people do not travel through it everyday? Nonsense. Assuming a desert at the severity of the Sahara could truly be a "genetic barrier," that would've happened towards the end of the Old Kingdom and towards the 4.2 kiloyear event. This is around the time that even those at the Max Planck institute (the guys that did that Abusir study) admit that a wave of immigration from Canaan had occurred. Oh and the researchers before them just so happen to say that towards the New Kingdom, the coastal/northern phenotype becomes dominant? The leaders of ancient Egypt just so happened to complain about their country being overrun with Asiatics when none were living there? Uh huh.
I'm sure the phenotypic landscape and power dynamics along those lines is precisely as it was in ancient times [lol, no]. Well documented evidence that Asiatics poured into North Africa in response to climate change is to be ignored. The fact that the non-blacks that were there before climate change (in some countries at least) were assimilated to cultures that had been made by Ethopian looking North Africans is to be ignored. But any Blacks in North Africa should be chalked up to the "slave trade." People will continue to cry about the “slave trade” even when genetic review doesn't trace the ancestry to Muslim trading routes, or when research finds an Ethiopian-type phenotype has been in North Africa since ancient times.
It really starts to be pathetic I don't even know where to start lol. First of all you use upper egyptians as a population representative of all ancient north africans ?? Secondly you use craniometrics data to conclude that upper egyptians looked like ethiopians ?? Also the whole problem is about people claiming/stealing our history because of their inferiority complex so that the sahara wasn't a very strong genetic barrier 7000 years ago doesn't matter I was already well aware of this what really matters is that it was a strong genetic barrier during the historical era. Period. And do not try to portray the Nile as some sort of ancient highway lol that was not the case at all. I will not even talked about your ridiculous phenotypic continuity argument...with that kind of argument I can say that the whole world was black lmao
Btw you have no evidence of replacement taking place in egypt during ancient times...you talk about ancient populations as if they were a bunch of nomadic tribes that move everywhere they want lol I ask you serious sources to back up these ridiculous claims.
Ridiculous really as I said to your friend before bring sources or don't answer me. Even if north africans were the blackest people on earth you're still not related to them focus on your bantu ancestors !
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ase:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: You're delusional if you think people like egyptians, juba II , tacfarinas, Hannibal looked bantu lol
Bantu isn’t the only way to look black
quote:focus on your west african ancestors you're not related to any ancient north african people. You can use all the rhetoric you want I talk with facts.
If Blacks research Northern Africans, it suddenly matters in research who’s related ancient North Africans. But when Europeans come to research any type of ancient population, many of the same anti-black North Africans have their lips puckered to for it to fall on a soft white ass. When you tell ALL groups of people to stop researching North African people, then maybe it won’t sound as ridiculous. You're nervous about racial implications and masking it behind accusations of us being averse to West African history. It would be easier to hide that too if racism in North Africa weren't so heavy. You in particular couldn't even IMAGINE a period of time where blackness existed in north Africa (and was not subject to discrimination).
Lol people who knows me well on the internet know that I've been attacking europeans for years I invite you to visit "the apricity" before concluding that I'm an As*licker. I fight every people who disrespect our ancestors and their history no matter their ethnic background Your racist excuse won't work with me.
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
I am not an Afrocentric @tukuler So how do you describe yourself in interpreting information about the world? Because I thought Afrocentrism was any African person learning about world from a ethnic/tribal perspective on the small scale and abstracting that ethnic identify enough to understand African people and the relationship they have/had with other Africans and non-African on the large scale when understanding history about African people.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
This has turned into a Deshret thread.
There is plenty unbiased N Afr info on ES from 2003 on up.
Does anybody feel its worth it to post some of that again now?
quote:Blacks darker than the Afers abounded in N Afr south of the Tunisian/Algerian chotts.
Blacks darker than the Afers abounded in N Afr south of the Tunisian/Algerian chotts, i.e.; 34 degrees north.
Black does not mean negro. Black does not mean sub-Saharan.
African history don't begin nor end with genetics,
quote:Morocco's Haratin in the zouth will say they're autochthone, that they aren't recently arrived "black West Africans" and the "whites" they welcomed as new neighbors took over.
North Africa had its own local pops who, wherever their sources were, these local pre-Saharans and North Saharans were neither our • Savannah West Africans • Gulf of Guinea West Africans • South Central Africans • Lower, Middle, or Upper clear to Great Lakes/ Mountains of the Moon (Ruzenwori) Nile Africans • Mediterranean coast Africans.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
My Africana studies began before anybody was clamoring about Afrocentric anything.
What ppl claim is Afrocentric has absolutely nothing to do with the philosophy of Afrocentrism as taught in colleges and universities.
I see through African eyes. I steer from white etc ethnocentrisms. Been doing it since 1968. I think that's enough w/o aligning myself to non-academics.
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: I am not an Afrocentric @tukuler So how do you describe yourself in interpreting information about the world? Because I thought Afrocentrism was any African person learning about world from a ethnic/tribal perspective on the small scale and abstracting that ethnic identify enough to understand African people and the relationship they have/had with other Africans and non-African on the large scale when understanding history about African people.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Only prejudice and racial hatred says either one is more North African than the other.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Example of certain ancient North African phenotype(s). Roman mosaic of North Africans as the Four Seasons
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Example of certain ancient North African phenotype(s). Roman mosaic of North Africans as the Four Seasons.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Example of certain ancient North African phenotype(s). Roman mosaic of North Africans as the Four Seasons
lol and here romans :
Are you going to say they were black ?? lol
anyway here some african mosaic that you don't show of course :
here the four season too strangely they look different
Neolithic North Africa built from various ethnies * Sudanic * Gafsian * South Mediterranean * Atlantic
This is why no one phenotype is THE North African phenotype. Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Numidians lived away from the Mediterranean coast. Mediterranean coastals are only one type of North African nor are they the dominant phenotype. Being on the coast those North Africans freely mixed and mingled with north Mediterranean southern Europeans in particular. This is obviously why coastals are so white. There are extravagant legends of lost army founder effect fathers. Ancient North Africans nor their observers ever claimed to be one uniform phenotype people.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
Good post. He essentially has no post antiquity SSA... but looks like he’d score more SSA than you, interesting stuff.
Actually with those G25 results we can see that it's the same situation for my people (riffians) and honestly he could be part of my family he doesn't look atypical for my region. He's from the souss region Btw
This is another result from this guy as you can see he's very similar to guanche and doesn't look black at all.
Mauros was Alexandrian Greek for "the blacks" and further shown the words negro and nigger in modern Greek is mauros
Note the definition of Mauri, from Mauros, where the regions called Mauretania got their name in this entry of Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography.
To further see mauros applies to people who are black
First insert the word Μαύρος into the GOOGLE translator
Now set the translator to English -> Greek Insert the word black Insert the word negro Insert the word nigger
Finally set the translator to Greek -> English Insert the word αράπης
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: It really starts to be pathetic I don't even know where to start lol.
Learning to read properly would be a start.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: First of all you use upper egyptians as a population representative of all ancient north africans ??
To debunk your false notions that blacks were always discriminated against: I JUST got through discussing northern (non-black) predynastic Egyptians being assimilated to a culture that developed among southern Ethiopian looking Egyptians....
... and you took that to mean I was arguing North Africans could only look one way.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Secondly you use craniometrics data to conclude that upper egyptians looked like ethiopians ??
Are you going to discuss the problem with what I posted or...?
quote:Also the whole problem is about people claiming/stealing our history because of their inferiority complex
Before I start, I'd like to apologize for snipping your paragraph long run on sentence. Too many ideas at once, not enough periods.
Now, I know a lot of anti-black North Africans have a difficult time understanding intersectionality, but it's possible for an ancient civilization's founders to be black phenotypically while also being native to North Africa. The same way the Buddha can be Indian and also be part of Buddhist history, a historical tangent that connects millions people around the world who aren't Indian. Imagine if Indians bitched about people calling themselves Buddhists because they're not genetically Indian. Or that they identified with another human being that was Indian while not being biologically related. Well that makes about as much sense as what you're doing, quite honestly. The only people who'll be remotely triggered by any of it are those really believe race is a valid biological construct.
quote: that the sahara wasn't a very strong genetic barrier 7000 years ago doesn't matter I was already well aware of this what really matters is that it was a strong genetic barrier during the historical era. Period.
That graph says 5,000 years ago, not 7,000.
The Sahara was a Sahel region during the historical period. Or perhaps Old Kingdom Egypt, which would've emerged at that time isn't part of the "historical period" anymore.
quote: And do not try to portray the Nile as some sort of ancient highway lol that was not the case at all.
So you're saying no one used boats on the Nile? That people didn't use the Nile for nourishment as they traveled from the south to the North (and vice versa?). Lol, even if that were true, during the earlier portions of the dynastic period, Egypt was more Sahel in climate, as I stated earlier. The Sahel is certainly not void of blacks, far from it.
quote: I will not even talked about your ridiculous phenotypic continuity argument...with that kind of argument I can say that the whole world was black lmao
No...no you couldn't. Only the people with a black phenotype would be black. Even if two or more people are closely related genetically, if they don't have the black phenotype they're not black. You've been so brainwashed by racial psuedoscience that you have difficulty understanding these two concepts are not interchangable. Even if someone's genetics can ultimately be traced back to a black person, this doesn't mean their phenotypes (and by extension they themselves) are black. If you're going to argue that ancient peoples across North Africa were all overwhelmingly non-black, you need to prove the racial continuity they have with non-black north Africans. Not genetic continuity, PHENOTYPIC continuity.
quote: Btw you have no evidence of replacement taking place in egypt during ancient times...you talk about ancient populations as if they were a bunch of nomadic tribes that move everywhere they want lol I ask you serious sources to back up these ridiculous claims.
Phenotypic replacement, in certain portions of Africa yes. Bare minimum, that happened. Ethiopian-like features that were more common to Ancient Upper Egypt no longer have the the proportional dominance it once did.
quote:Ridiculous really as I said to your friend before bring sources or don't answer me. Even if north africans were the blackest people on earth you're still not related to them focus on your bantu ancestors !
Race isn't about "relationship" though. Only people still stuck in 19-20th century pseudoscience still believe that. Stop trying to steer the conversation into bullshit science. You'll only make yourself angrier when I don't fall for it.
What you're saying makes just as much sense to assume you need to be related to all poor people of the world to research the history of poverty. Racial identity is bestowed based on phenotype, not genetic relationship. You have people that haven't had anything to do with SSAs for far longer than your ancestors, and they are still black. Civilizations that were the product of people that were mostly of a particular phenotype are then labeled "black," "white" etc.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
North Africans were enslaved and shipped to the Canaries
quote:Originally posted by Ase:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
So as I've said multiple times before ancient north africans were similar to coastal berbers not haratin or ssa shifted north africans who are the product of the trans-saharan slave trade.
"Ancient North Africans" were very diverse as a group and cover a very long span of time. We are nowhere close from having an image of all of north Africa across time and space. One of the biggest problems with the whole "slave trade" argument is that North African ancestry that is shared with (some) modern SSAs, is not shared by those taken in slave trade routes:
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [img][/img]
Numidians lived away from the Mediterranean coast. Mediterranean coastals are only one type of North African nor are they the dominant phenotype. Being on the coast those North Africans freely mixed and mingled with north Mediterranean southern Europeans in particular. This is obviously why coastals are so white. There are extravagant legends of lost army founder effect fathers. Ancient North Africans nor their observers ever claimed to be one uniform phenotype people.
You don't really know what you're talking about numidians lived on the coast not far away :
and here some depictions of ancient mauri/numidians :
bust of Massinissa
King adherbal
Their goddess ifri
Here the part of a monument made in the honor of Bocchus I
Here the Bust of the King Juba I
King Juba II
Berber emperor Macrinus
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
You are a NorthAfrocentric I am not an Afrocentric Africa is not the center of everything and Afroeccentricity ideas are invalid in my eyes.
Problem is racists like you rather than actual read and understand just revert to stereotyping and putting words in the mouth.
You don't have the slightest idea what my stance is on North Africans who are not a monolithic block.
I'm an African black and I'm not baNtu. Unfortunately my people are prejudiced against Bantu.
Looks vary from Sahara to pre-Sahara to Atlas to Tell to MedCoast.
Nassbean claims to be closest to Gun08 Incapable of independent analysis Nassbean can only mindlessly regurgitate what he reads and whats inline with Northafrocentric nonsense Amazigh activist propaganda Gun08 is L3b1a What irony
L3b1a existed in Western Sahara before the southward demographic expansion of Berbers fleeing Arab invasion.
L3b1a dominates non-Guanche (tribe only inhabited northern Tenerife) ancient Gran Canaria. It positively dates there to the 10th century.
Nassbean descends from Niger-Congo or Chadic originating L3b1a female deep lineage by his own chest thumping.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
Coin depicting Jughurta
Coin depicting the King Syphax
Coin depicting Micipsa
Coin depicting Vermina
Statue of a fisherman found in Volubilis
Coin depicting the numidian king Massinissa
A libyan/berber depicted by persians
Now I wonder what afrocentrists will say...probably "mixed with romans/europeans" lmao when it's not arabs it's europeans
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ase:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: [/qb]
To debunk your false notions that blacks were always discriminated against: I JUST got through discussing northern (non-black) predynastic Egyptians being assimilated to a culture that developed among southern Ethiopian looking Egyptians....
Upper egyptians were not black stop being delusional craniometrically horners are indeed close to caucasoid groups and I'm not even surprised that they were close to upper egyptians but it means absolutely nothing when it comes to their phenotype.
and egyptians discriminated black people :
but yeah keep believing they were asiatic invaders who stole the black/ethiopian heritage lmao
quote:Before I start, I'd like to apologize for snipping your paragraph long run on sentence. Too many ideas at once, not enough periods.
Now, I know a lot of anti-black North Africans have a difficult time understanding intersectionality, but it's possible for an ancient civilization's founders to be black phenotypically while also being native to North Africa. The same way the Buddha can be Indian and also be part of Buddhist history, a historical tangent that connects millions people around the world who aren't Indian. Imagine if Indians bitched about people calling themselves Buddhists because they're not genetically Indian. Or that they identified with another human being that was Indian while not being biologically related. Well that makes about as much sense as what you're doing, quite honestly. The only people who'll be remotely triggered by any of it are those really believe race is a valid biological construct.
Yes of course when we don't agree with afrocentrists we're automatically anti-black ...go cry elsewhere I don't care about political correctness and I will never agree with complexed people who try to portray us as invaders. And as I've said before I never denied that maybe there were some "black" groups in north africa but they were a tiny minority and only present in some part of the sahara they never played a role in our history except maybe with the XXVth dynasty in egypt who came from Nubia.
quote: The Sahara was a Sahel region during the historical period. Or perhaps Old Kingdom Egypt, which would've emerged at that time isn't part of the "historical period" anymore.
not it wasn't a sahel region you oversimplified the whole thing so it fits your agenda but this is the reality green sahara or not a good part of it was still desertic :
quote:So you're saying no one used boats on the Nile? That people didn't use the Nile for nourishment as they traveled from the south to the North (and vice versa?). Lol, even if that were true, during the earlier portions of the dynastic period, Egypt was more Sahel in climate, as I stated earlier. The Sahel is certainly not void of blacks, far from it.
They used boats but the northern section of the river flows north almost entirely through the Sudanese desert to Egypt, then ends in a large delta and flows into the Mediterranean Sea that's why it was sometimes in some areas totally impossible for boats to go south and they had to walk and there is no testimonial of any big travel to the south via the Nile except one roman story if I remember correctly but it was very rare that's why they didn't even know where the source of the Nile was lol
quote: No...no you couldn't. Only the people with a black phenotype would be black. Even if two or more people are closely related genetically, if they don't have the black phenotype they're not black. You've been so brainwashed by racial psuedoscience that you have difficulty understanding these two concepts are not interchangable. Even if someone's genetics can ultimately be traced back to a black person, this doesn't mean their phenotypes (and by extension they themselves) are black. If you're going to argue that ancient peoples across North Africa were all overwhelmingly non-black, you need to prove the racial continuity they have with non-black north Africans. Not genetic continuity, PHENOTYPIC continuity.
there is no black phenotypes stop being delusional ...horners don't feel any type of connection with bantus like you quite the opposite they are racists (not a coincidence if somalians call you Jareer). Also it's already well known that berbers are genetically predominantly eurasian with some SSA so there is nothing to prove here just read basic studies.
quote: Phenotypic replacement, in certain portions of Africa yes. Bare minimum, that happened. Ethiopian-like features that were more common to Ancient Upper Egypt no longer have the the proportional dominance it once did.
no ethiopian like features weren't common you have no evidence for this and there were no phenotypic replacement that's only what you wish.
quote: Race isn't about "relationship" though. Only people still stuck in 19-20th century pseudoscience still believe that. Stop trying to steer the conversation into bullshit science. You'll only make yourself angrier when I don't fall for it. What you're saying makes just as much sense to assume you need to be related to all poor people of the world to research the history of poverty. Racial identity is bestowed based on phenotype, not genetic relationship. You have people that haven't had anything to do with SSAs for far longer than your ancestors, and they are still black. Civilizations that were the product of people that were mostly of a particular phenotype are then labeled "black," "white" etc. [/QB]
Pls Don't bring your ridiculous american identity concepts...they don't exist in the old world
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
There are written records of royal intermarriage. Particularly I remember a Greco-Egyptian spouse of a provincial Africa monarch. The last Ptolemy married Juba II.
Numidia was not a coastal port nation. Mostly it was on Algeria's High Plain
quote:Behind the southern shore of the Mediterranean Sea, behind the ports of Caesarea (modern Cherchell), Tipasa, Icosium (Algiers), and Hippo Regius (Annaba), begin the highlands of Numidia.
Anti-black racist Northafrocentrics will fart anything out their mouths
Now they turn highlands into the coast. For what? Just to fight with Inner Africans for no reason at all but hatred.
North Africa has little to do with my heritage. Nonetheless people with features similar to south Saharans abounded there. The slim narrow coast covers little of all North Africa.
The blacks of North Africa have their own particular genes and looks just as blacks of other compass regions have theirs.
Thing is coastal N Afrs have always been mixed with yte Med Euros since trans-Mediterranean trade began until tomorrow.
No wonder some have an identity crisis. But it's the racist Amazigh activists who are most screwed up in the head making pretend they are a pure aboriginal African stock when in fact everybody except south a/o far east Asians and native Americans have been to the N Afr crossroads.
Nassbean himself is 20% European. Nassbean claims he's pristine North African. So pristine North Africans are 20% European.
Right, nowhere but on the coast not the whole of N Afr.
Today's N Afrs have no respect for black ppl whether N Afr or not. This contempt is why Nassbean "never reads" and refuses to even recognize where black posters have already raised points he makes years ago.
This contempt goes back centuries
quote:Leo Africanus on a diplomat's receptiom
For Nassbean we are not individual people For Nassbean we are a monolith. Each individual is stereotyped into an Afrocentric enemy however Nassbean defines Afrocentric (in general silly sloppy 'scholar' savages)
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
Are you guys still debating this little Farq, how hard does it take to debunk this idiot anyway? Like honestly, this is becoming ridiculous! Nassbean, look into your inbox, you got message.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith: Are you guys still debating this little Farq, how hard does it take to debunk this idiot anyway? Like honestly, this is becoming ridiculous! Nassbean, look into your inbox, you got message.
I laughed a lot thanks but at least you admit that you never rely on peer-reviewed studies but on your own interpretations and on 2D paintings lmao. Because in your world all white scientists are lying and are unobjective and if we don't agree with afrocentrists like you we're automatically eurocentrists lol
Man seriously get a life, seek help and don't ever try to discuss with me you're mentally sick yes stay in your we wuz world I don't care anymore.
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
Better yet, i’ll just post my entire message here. Here is a response to this guy’s ranting tirade.
quote:Yes actually it's crazy to see how afrocentrists can be dishonest or delusional...we never see you on serious academic site like anthrogenica probably because you all already know that genetically modern north africans are indigenous and similar to the ancient ones. As someone said before : "Ironic they are like a bird from Egypt "They claim all of the various cultures of MENA (the middle east & north Africa), Babylon, moors, Phoenicians, Egyptians, etc... Funny how they dont care for zulu bantu or whatever else in sub saharan africa. All of this stems from the African American inferiority complex. Reality is there grandparents were slaves on plantations, so its very exciting for them to claim that they were actually royal kings and queens with awesome achievements. " He's totally right imo you all should really focus on your real ancestors and stop being obsessed with us. I just recently posted my g25 results on another thread and I'm totally indigenous with almost no arab or ssa ancestry (my euro component is small and was introduced mainly during the late neolithic).
You poor ranting hypocritical buffoon! I should known better than to deal a bumbling moron such as yourself, but I was too caught in the moment of disposing your wet dreams! You of all people have the nerve to call Afrocentrists (which is just a code word for any Black person who has an African centered point of view and not bizarre Eurocentric fantasies) insane or fraudulent, yet you and those like you are doing the exact same thing! You are no different from us in anyway, shape, or form, except for our opinions, and yet here you are presenting yourself as the virtuous and self righteous people, that you and others enjoy pretending to be! Keep in mind this is a reoccurring phenomenon with you goodwill degenerates in any debate with the evil and twisted Afrocentrists! Ironic isn't it? You are in no position to argue or dictate anything to anybody about the morals of "heritage"! Your people don't honor it, never mind embrace it! Thus, they can never claim it! You and others that think like you don't deserve to claim your ancestors, but what's funny is that you supposed Afrocentrists are denying your your people of your heritage, when in actuality your people are doing the job for us! You deny yourselves of this Ancient heritage! Not the other way around!Now listen, the Egyptians and the Amazigh people are African, biologically and culturally rooted! Plain and simple, you piece of garbage! You and others like yourself, that is to say those varieties with White or off-White phenotype, are simply just a continuation of these two Ancient populations and an outbred continuation at that! Oh, I just love these semantics your playing. Overlooking yourselves and attacking Afrocentrists over the sketchy bullshit that your doing! It's so fun, to debate you guys, that is why I don't wait back on anything you ingrates throw at me! Oh, and you think we need the authenticitication of a predominantly White expertise? Oh no, we don't need to appeal to any White authority about anything! Alas, it is you tools of intellectual society that feels the need to pander to authority! You see, unlike you Eurocentrists, us Afrocentrists know how to actually look at information and make our own interpretations, instead of waiting like sheep for someone to confirm it. Thus is the case for many people with a Euro-centered point of view, especially since they are used to having someone else telling them what to think! You say that we lay claim to every culture belonging to "Mena", a faulty term at best. I won't deny this, we have laid claim to North Aftica and Middle East, and guess what? We are not ashamed of this! North Africa and the Middle East were extensions of the African continent! This is fact, we can claim it as much as their mongrel descendants! Most of us could care less if we weren't closely blood related to these Ancient people, in fact we could care less if we were closely related to any other Black population, if that may be the case, both on the African continent and abroad for that matter! For the most part, our identity transcends ethnic lines. We as members of the Black race, particularly in the Western World, don't usually partake in ethnic rivalries the same way people on the continent may, though we do make distinctions, especially as Foundational Black Americans! That is what set us apart from the rest of you! The Egyptians, the Moors, the Babylonians, and the Phoenicians were all originally Black populations, whether you like it or not! The Egyptians and Moors being predominantly African, while the latter being predominantly Eurasian, of course!
These are the Ancient populations that we have lay claim to.
The Egyptians
The Moors
The Babylonians
The Phoenicians
These are the people that we have claim! Our people! Not yours! Aren't these Black folks beautiful though and not a pale face in sight too! By the way, I love how you used the Zulus, (one Black ethnic group that resides in South Africa) and present them as representatives of your typical African, South of the Sahara. It really reveals the grotesque mentality of people such as yourself! Also, I just don't get why you simpletons always make this stupendous argument, which assume that Foundational Black Americans are looking to North African history as way to combat our alleged "inferiority complex" and the nonsensical opinion that Africa, South of the Sahara did not produce any or many civilizations of any significant value comparable to our Northern African or Eurasian counterparts. That moot on so many different levels and is utterly ridiculous. For one, Black Americans are not constantly looking to North Africa for our race's and I mean our race's history! If you weren't such a twisted numbskull, like the rest of your brethren, you would have realized that it's pretty much well established among the self proclaimed evil Afrocentrists, that North Africa were predominantly populated by Blacks in most of the region's history. Whether you agree with this fact, is irrelevant! For us the debate is over, so there's no need to keep hitting a dead horse and argue with emotional lunatics such as yourself, simply because of their feelings. It's pretty much fruitless to convince people with propane its agendas the obvious, so we mostly stick our own inner spaces, just like you guys! You stay in your lanes, we stocked to ours, our point of views do not cross each other. But when it does, it's usually becomes hell for you Eurocentrists! We typically have the upper hand in most online debates, if I may blankety say so myself. You don't believe me, go search for any online topic concerning anything about North Africa and it's Black presence, particularly on "serous" academic sites like Historum and Allempires! And I don't just mean any online thread with like two or four page, I mean the twenty+ page threads. Trust me it's usually heavy in those conversations and real headache for the Euro-sphere crowd! Also, you are mistaken to believe that it's only Black Americans doing this or this is only a Black American trend! This is a global phenomenon among Blacks across the diaspora, particularly in the Western Hemisphere! In fact, some of our great champions for a African centered scholarship weren't even Foundational Black Americans! They came from various backgrounds. Examples, Cheikh Anta Diop, Senegalese Theophile Obenga, Congolese, Ivan Van Sertima, Guyanese, and Yosef Ben-Jochannan, Puerto Rican/Ethiopian Jew, just to name a few! I know we are quite diverse! The only thing that I will admit to, in your little tantrum is that we do partake in the discussion of North Africa's demographic history continuously as much as other parts of Africa, particularly West and East Africa, but not for the reasons you mentioned so pathetically! The actual reason why you see a high interest in North Africa's history among Blacks across the diaspora, has nothing to do with us feeling ashamed of our actual ethnic or cultural roots, in fact we as Black Americans embraced our ethnic heritage, as much as we embraced our racial heritage. It's has nothing to do with you nitwits idiotic HBD claim that Africans south of the Sahara never producing a advanced civilization, thus the reason we claim North Africa is because we jealous of our Northern counterparts Ancient past. Indeed, this theory has to put into account the few indigenous civilizations that was present in North Africa, advance or otherwise, with the likes of plentiful advance civilizations situated in regions such as the Middle Niger Valley, Guinea, the Congo, the Upper Nile Valley, the Golden Horn, the Swahili coast, and the rest of Southeastern Africa, plus Africa's biggest economies. Examples, Nigeria, Rwanda, and Botswana. No, the real reason why you see us so focused on North Africa's history, particularly the region's racial demographic history is because we are sick and tired of seeing Whites, along with their white knighted pets attempt to present a precious African heritage as something it is not! This about restoring the obvious and not about any identity crisis! That obvious being early North Africans being Black! We already accept these Ancient populations as Black, were just annoyed by you losers! In fact, this couldn’t get even more ridiculous! A North African Farq speaking on behalf of another’s people self image in the world, when North Africans themselves have a inferiority complex! You guys are basically egotistical bastards and you know what’s sad, i’m not even exaggerating. You are literally bastards of Aladusian concubines and North African men! You wish to play away your mixed heritage for something your not and of all you are presenting North Africans of the past as this! You people would rather present yourselves as a off-White people, instead of embrace your heterogeneity and when you do embrace it, you’ll attempt to undermine the original ancestral lineages of North Africa and present it as some twisted revisionist versions of Modern North Africans! You attempted to shame me for stating the obvious about your people! I don’t care what you, a anonymous Berber Wannabe cretin has to say! I am going to say what needs to be said! North Africans has never ever a static population! There might be continuity between you and your “ancestors”, but there’s also a discontinuity between them and you! That is to say there’s a gap!
"Our analysis of modern North Africans shows that most populations emerged recently from admixture of Africans and Eurasians and therefore are ineffective in resolving questions about ancient human expansions.”
Your not the North Africans of antiquities! Get over yourself!
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
Also, I just don’t get why on God’s green Earth you people assume that Foundational Black Americans are ashamed of the our already influential past? We already have a culturally enriched history in the nation we were once enslaved. We survived one of Mankind’s tragic events, Slavery/Jim Crow. We made grand contributions to not only this country, but the World in nearly ever angle of the intellectual society, music being our one of our unique gifts. We literally shaped how this country and the World sees itself politically more than most ethnic groups. Hell, we practically built our enslaver’s nation and made it the country it is today! So, why do you assume think we should so what’s the reason for us to latch onto Modern Berber’s accomplishments? We only care about the Berbers of antiquities, as apart of our universal Black history, never mind our ethnic group’s personal history. So, self hatred idea that is always circulating among people Euro-centered inner circles is beyond me! I mean, the Modern “Berbers” aren’t really that significantly dominant compare to Foundational Black Americans. Their only accomplishments is social activism against Arab supremacy, which is unknown outside North Africa, plus some parts of Western Africa and descending from another enriched African cultural heritage, just like us Black Americans. The Berbers are literally a underprivileged people, basically being under the boot of Eurasian immigrants and their Satellites, which is you, by the way. Their identity are literally being manipulated by the likes of people such as yourself! Also, I don’t want to hear any of horse shit concerning Slavery, especially since you being a Farq, have the better chance as me of descending from one!
Jacques Heers argues in "Les barbaresques" (2001, pg 227) at the time of Turkish rule in Algeria, 50% of the population in the capital was composed of European-Christian slaves (even Italian slaves by the seventeenth century). Saqalibas from the Balkans were also well represented. Besides, Arab excursions displaced many of the ancestral populations of the Maghreb between the 12th-15th centuries.
The translator of Leo Africanus Robert Brown mentioned - "The many European races, including the Vandals under Genseric, and the endless European slaves who, turning renegade, became absorbed into the population must have left their mark over the all the Barbary states” (Brown, 1896, p. 203).
According to Robert Davis Tripoli, was “occasionally reportedly crowded with large numbers of Greek slaves." (Davis, 2003, Christtian Slaves Muslim Masters, White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800.p. 112)
"Except for the Zanj (Swahili slaves) from lower Iraq, no large body of blacks historically linked to the trans-Saharan slave trade existed anywhere in the Arab world...The high costs of slaves, because of the risks inherent in the desert crossing, which would have not permitted such a massive exodus ... In this connection, it is significant that in the Arabic iconography of the period, the slave merchant was often depicted as a man with a hole in his purse. Until the Crusades the Muslim world drew its slaves from two main sources: Eastern and Central Europe (Slavs) and Turkestan. The Sudan only came third."
“The Mauri possess bodies black as night, while the skins of the Gauls are white" Etymologies of Isidore of Seville, 6th CE
the people of this country (Mauritania) are Ethiopic: and they are in stature the largest of any nation with which we are acquainted’’ periplus scylax caryandensis v1 pg 54
DEL DUELLO DE LOS GODOS DE ESPANNA ET DE LA RAZÓN PORQUE ELLA FUE DESTROYADA from the book Primera Crónica General, Alfonso X El Sabio pg 47
All the Moorish soldiers were dressed with silk and black wool that had been forcibly acquired, their horse's reins were like fire, their black faces were like pitch and the most handsome of them was as black as a cooking pan. “Los moros de la hueste todos uestidos del sirgo et de los pannos de color que ganaran, las riendas de los sus cauallos tales eran como de fuego, las sus caras dellos negras como la pez, el mas fremoso dellos era negro como la olla"
pg 23:16 The Negro's [and] Indians Advocate: by Morgan Godwyn
"the like also would be the condition of the African moors, opposite to Spain and Italy, of whom 'tis scarce to be doubted but that they are a mixed generation; descendants of Negroes, the first inhabitants, and Europeans, from the opposite shores, by whose people they had formerly been conquered; their hair, figure, and complexion (the same with our mulatto's) bespeaking no less. Whereas our remoter africans, into whose territories those nations never till of late date had pierced, and so had no opportunity of the like mixtures, are perfectly black, their frizzled like wool, as the many thousand here do witness."
A list of Celtic, Byzantine, Greek, Roman descriptions of the Moors
1st century A.D. - The Greek historian,“Diodorus Siculus speaks in reference to the expedition of Agathocles, a Sardinian general, of three Libyan tribes on the coast of Tunisia, the Micatani and Zufoni who were nomads and the Asfodelodi, who by the color of their skin resembled the Ethiopians”
1st c. A.D.– Marcus Valerian Martial was one of the earliest Europeans to use the phrase “woolly hair like a Moor” also translated "a Moor with his crisp hair" in Book 6 of "The Epigrams", and the phrase was used up until the Middle Ages.
3rd c. A.D. - by this period derivatives of the word Mori or Mauri had come to signify black things. Morum had come to mean blackberry or Mulberry tree. Roman dramatist Platus or Plautus used the word morulus (blackberry-colored) for a black man or "Nigri".
5th c. A.D. - “The Moors have bodies black as night, while the skin of the Gauls is white..." written by Isidore of Seville in The Etymologies of Isidore of Seville - translation by Steven A. Barney published 2007. p. 386. St. Isidore also, “underlines the fact that Moors are so named because they are black, and their blackness comes from the heat of the sun."
6th c. A.D.- Corippus, a Byzantine in Book I 245 of Johannidus, Book 1, 245, speaking of Moors in the area of North Africa who he felt had "faces of a horrible black color" stated - “Maura videbatur facies, nigro colore horrida” (Michell, G.B. (1903, Jan.). The Berbers. Journal of the Royal African Society, 2(6), (pp. 161-194). He also refers to some Moorish captives as "black as crows".
6th c. A.D. - Procopius, a Byzantine in his History of the Wars book IV contrasting a white peoples who had settled in North Africa claimed they were not “black skinned like the Mauri...” The Mauri he knew lived in the area stretching from Leptis Magna to the Aures and Kabyle Mountains. The history books today call them "Berbers"
9th c. A.D. - Saedulius Scotus, a Celtic monk in a letter to an Italian ruler refers to the horrible "black faces" of "the Saracen" invaders of southern Italy
Arabic sources about the Moors/Berbers
11th c. A.D.- The text, Akhbar al Zaman, compiled between the 10th and 11th centuries based on writings of the Syrian al-Masudi reads “among the descendants of Sudan, son of Kan’an, are many nations, among them the Ishban, the Zanj, and many peoples that mutiplied in the Maghreb, about 70 of them”
13th c. A.D. - Abu Shama refers to the Masmuda as "blacks" in his Kitab al-Ravdatayn
Also, in regards to your last statement. Let me clarify something about these Genetic companies and you Farqs. THEY DON’T ALWAYS TAKE YOUR HETEROGENEITY INTO ACCOUNT! Meaning, THEY DON’T BREAK DOWN WHAT MAKES NORTH AFRICANS NORTH AFRICANS! GET THE HELL ON WITH THAT BULLSHIT!
quote:As for your posts they are ridiculous : most of your sources are old and debunked I certainly do not have time to contradict every piece of nonsens you posted
The reason why you don’t have time to contradict every piece of information in my posts, is because YOU CAN’T! IT’S IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU TO DEBUNK ANYTHING THAT I POSTED BECAUSE YOU CAN’T DEBUNK IT! SO, THE ONLY THING YOU CAN DO IN A TIGHT SITUATION IS SAY ITS ALL OUTDATED, WHEN IN ACTUALITY MOST OF MY POSTS ARE UP TO DATE AND THE ONES THAT AREN’T IS SUPPORTED BY UP TO DATE SCHOLARSHIP!
OUTDATED SOURCES!
"The race which gave birth to the Moroccans can be no other than the African negroes because the same black type [...] is found all the way to Senegal upon the right bank of the river without counting that it has been recognized in various parts of the Sahara [...] and from there comes black Moors who still have thick lips as a result of negro descent and not from intermixture [...] As to the white, bronze, or dark Moors, they are no other than the near relations of black Moors with whom they form the varieties of the same race; and as one can also see among the Europeans, blondes, brunettes, and chestnuts, in the midst of the same population so one may see Moroccans of every color in the same agglomeration without it being a question of their being real mulattos."
Source: “Sur des races noires indigènes qui existaient anciennement dans l’afrique septentrionale”
The anthropological examination of skeletons found in tombs in Carthage proves that there is no racial unity [...] The so called Semitic type, characterized by the long, perfectly oval face, the thin aquiline nose and the lengthened cranium, enlarged over the nape of the neck has not been found in Carthage. On the other hand, another cranial form, with a fairly short face, prominent parietal bumps, farther forward and lower down than is usual is common [...] most of the Punic population in Carthage had African and even Negro ancestors"
Source: Charles Picard "Daily Life in Carthage at the time of Hannibal"
UPDATED SOURCES!
“To what extent Carthaginians employed Negro slaves is doubtful. Punic cemeteries have yielded numerous skulls of a negroid character, and there were some very dark-skinned Africans, perhaps negroes, in the Carthaginian army which invaded Sicily early in the fifth century B.C. Frontinus tells us that as prisoners they were paraded naked before the Greeks soldiery in order to bring the Carthaginians into contempt. On the other hand, as the Carthaginians customarily enslaved prisoners of war and the victims of their piracy, two sources of supply which they must have found very fruitful, they were far from being dependent on Africa for slave labour. It is unlikely that they hesitated to enslaved as many Berbers as they required, nor were so brutal a people likely to have drawn the line at doing the same to their own peasantry. The evidence of negro blood, is, however, significant and it seems probable that they imported slaves from the Fezzan. It was a likely source, for the Garamantes cannot have hunted the Troglodyte Ethiopians except to enslave them. The slave trade with the Fezzan may have been important to the Carthaginians, but there are no grounds for assuming that it was[B].”
Source: The golden trade of the Moors: West African kingdoms in the fourteenth century, By E. W. Bovill, Robin Hallet, pp. 21-22
"Snowden (1970) and Desanges (1981) reference various writers’ physical descriptions of the ancient Maghreb’s inhabitants. In various writers’ physical descriptions of the ancient Maghreb’s inhabitants. In addition to the presence of fair-skinned blonds, various “Ethiopian” or “part-Ethiopian” groups are described, near the coast and on the southern slopes of the Atlas mountains. “Ethiopians,” meaning dark-skinned peoples usually having “ulotrichous” (wooly) hair, are noted in various Greek accounts and European coinage (Snowden, 1970). Hiernaux (1975) interprets the finding of “[B]subsaharan” population affinities in living Maghrebans as being solely the result of the medieval transsaharan slave trade; it is clear that this is not the case. Furthermore, the blacks of the ancient Maghreb were apparently not foreign or a caste[B]."
Source: (S.O.Y Keita, "Studies of Ancient Crania From Northern Africa," American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 83:35-48 (1990)
[B]A REALLY OUTDATED SOURCE!
"The blacks are more numerous than the whites. The whites at most consist of the people of Persia, Jibal, and Khurasan, the Greeks, Slavs, Franks, and Avars, and some few others, not very numerous; the blacks include the Zanj, Ethiopians, the people of Fezzan, the Berbers, the Copts/B], and the Nubians, the people of Zaghawa, [B]the Moors, Sind and India, Qamar and Dabila, China (Southeast Asia), and Masin, the islands in the seas between China (Southeast Asia) and Africa are full of blacks, such as Ceylon, Kalah, Amal, Zabij, and their islands, as far as India, China (Southeast Asia), Kabul, and those shores."
Source: Al-Jahiz (776-869): Al-Fakhar al-Sudan min al-Abyadh (Superiority Of The Blacks To The Whites)
By the way, this guy self identifies as a Black Man and he pioneered the theory of Evolution, 1,100 years before Charles Darwin!
quote:but just an example : you brought the argument "iberomaurusian 30% ssa" while this is the reality your arguments are outdated :
"Moreover, our model predicts that West Africans (represented by Yoruba) had 12.5±1.1% ancestry from a Taforalt-related group rather than Taforalt having ancestry from an unknown Sub-Saharan African source 11; this may have mediated the limited Neanderthal admixture present in West Africans23. An advantage of our model is thatit allows for a local North African component in the ancestry of Taforalt, rather than deriving them exclusively from Levantine and Sub-Saharan sources ."
YOU BRILLIANT IMBECILE! YOUR OWN SOURCE CONTRADICTS YOU!
“An advantage of our model is that it allows for a local North African component in the ancestry of Taforalt, rather than deriving them exclusively from Levantine and Sub-Saharan sources.”
NOT ONLY ARE A RANTING BUFFOON, BUT ALSO A ILLITERATE ONE TOO! YOUR OWN SOURCE PLAYS DOWN THE SUB SAHARAN ANCESTRY OF THE TAFORALT, BUT ALSO DISMISSES THE LEVANTINE ANCESTRY IN TAFORALT! THERE NOT SAYING THAT THE REMAINS DID NOT HAVE SUB SAHARAN ANCESTRY OR LEVANTINE ANCESTRY, THERE SAYING THAT SUCH INFLUENCES ARE PRODUCT OF WHAT MAKES NORTH AFRICANS NORTH AFRICAN!
quote:talking with you is a clear waste of time
YOU WASTED YOUR OWN TIME COMING TO THIS FORUM!
quote:....yes keep believing that moors, egyptians, babylonians, assyrians were black
Oh, I don’t believe these Ancient populations were Black, I KNOW THAT THEY WERE Black! With the exception of the Assyrians, who were generally fair skinned, judging by their art. Speaking here is a example of how the Assyrians portrayed themselves and their conquered subjects.
So, 3/4 of these Ancient populations were Black! The Assyrians, i’ll assume were of heterogeneous origins.
quote:lol we're invaders white cave-dwellers who stole your history. #melaninpower #kingsandqueens
Here is my last response to you. You are a degenerate. You will always succumb to a bias viewpoint and will never learn. Your intentions, like many other North Africans is not mutually on the grounds of honoring your Ancestors nor is it praise for them. It is about misrepresenting them for your people’s sick Nationalist views, based on a false identity that was invented only one century ago. You can not be convinced and that’s fine. Just let me say this, you deny yourselves of your heritage and not me.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
look at this hysterical afrocentrist lmao ...after that he dares to call me a mentally sick person...ironic
I posted enough evidence go contradict them I will not answer to the book you just wrote haha
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
double
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
Anyway let's go back to the topic..here three tunisians :
Carthaginian beauties Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
quote:I laughed a lot thanks but at least you admit that you never rely on peer-reviewed studies but on your own interpretations and on 2D paintings lmao. Because in your world all white scientists are lying and are unobjective and if we don't agree with afrocentrists like you we're automatically eurocentrists lol
No idiot, I don’t appeal to twisted Eurocentric hogwash! I support only non bias sources, unlike you people! Also, these 2D portraits are the best real thing, Farq! They actually portray the listed people you! The Egyptians, the Moors, the Babylonians, and of course the Phoenicians are all showing themselves what they actually looked like!
quote:Man seriously get a life, seek help and don't ever try to discuss with me you're mentally sick yes stay in your we wuz world I don't care anymore.
#AmazighPride #Moors
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
I dont see why Afrocentrics and Berbercentrics are so obsessed with the Moors, first off the Arabs were the elites for most of Moorish Spain, except for brief periods of Almhohad/Almoravid and some of the Tafia kings, and the ruling elite prized White Europeans slave women, to the point that the Cordoba Caliphate were essentially White Europeans with minute Arab blood.
The Berbers never had any high culture that rivaled anything else in the African continent, and the Moors who invaded Spain were nomadic and adopted the culture of the Visigoths and Islamified it.
The most admirable aspects of Moorish Spain were a result of influence from native Spanish, Christian, Jewish and Syrian and Levantine Ummyadd..
The Swahili did the same thing the Moors did on African soil
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith:
The Moors
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
Here two g25 results from two north moroccans :
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
They have quite significant Iranian and Arab ancestry, could be a remnant from the various Caliphates that ruled North Africa.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: They have quite significant Iranian and Arab ancestry, could be a remnant from the various Caliphates that ruled North Africa.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Anyway let's go back to the topic..here three tunisians :
Carthaginian beauties
He clearly has recent ssa ancestors I suspect him to have around 30-40% black ancestry
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
Here result from a soussi (morocco) :
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
Carthagian beauties
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Only 1/3rd aboriginal. If reppin' all the originals then ancient N Afrs were 2/3rd foreign
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Here two g25 results from two north moroccans :
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
lol this thread is def. turned into Deshret material..
@Nassa...IDK, President Mucef dosnt have any sterotypical traits of SSA admixture, he has straight hair and thin nose/lips.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Only 1/3rd aboriginal. Ancient N Afr were 2/3rd foreign per Nassbean
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Here two g25 results from two north moroccans :
No Tukuler you forget capsians and later KEB (iberomaurusians were not berbers)
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: lol this thread is def. turned into Deshret material..
@Nassa...IDK, President Mucef dosnt have any sterotypical traits of SSA admixture, he has straight hair and thin nose/lips.
I mean come on be honest (of course his traits are not typically "negroid" don't forget that he has also a north african component I can show you plenty of mulattoes with caucasoid features)
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
This guy is from my region and I match with his father :
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
Here another pure soussi :
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
If the president had lighter skin you would not be saying he was Mulatto, he has not other features of Mulatto except his dark brown skin...
here is a photo of some Amazigh from Tunis
He could be descended from Saharan Amazigh...his DNA profile would be interesting..
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: lol this thread is def. turned into Deshret material..
@Nassa...IDK, President Mucef dosnt have any sterotypical traits of SSA admixture, he has straight hair and thin nose/lips.
I mean come on be honest (of course his traits are not typically "negroid" don't forget that he has also a north african component I can show you plenty of mulattoes with caucasoid features)
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
here moroccan woman :
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: If the president had lighter skin you would not be saying he was Mulatto, he has not other features of Mulatto except his dark brown skin...
here is a photo of some Amazigh from Tunis
He could be descended from Saharan Amazigh...his DNA profile would be interesting..
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: lol this thread is def. turned into Deshret material..
@Nassa...IDK, President Mucef dosnt have any sterotypical traits of SSA admixture, he has straight hair and thin nose/lips.
I mean come on be honest (of course his traits are not typically "negroid" don't forget that he has also a north african component I can show you plenty of mulattoes with caucasoid features)
These people descend from haratins I already explained you multiple times they are way less indigenous than the white skinned berbers :
" Our most recent estimated dates correlate with sub-Saharan admixture in North Africa, which is continuous during the last few centuries (from the 13th century to the 20th century, see cluster L in fig. 5), as previously suggested by historical records (Newman 1995) and genetic data (Harich et al. 2010; Henn et al. 2012). However, it is noteworthy that very precise dates are found in some cases in the 17th century in western clusters (see cluster K and M). The admixture dates in the 17th century could be the consequence of the trans-Saharan slave trade that resulted from the Ottoman rule in North Africa and the arrival of the Crown of Castile and the Portuguese Kingdom to the West African seaports in the 16th century. The Iberian presence, driven by the search of a workforce in their recent settled Atlantic territories, modified the political and socioeconomic structure of Western Africa. This also intensified traffic through trans-Saharan routes to North Africa after the emergence of the sugar industry in this region and the Atlantic territories (Newman 1995; Oliver and Atmore 2001; Da Mosto 2003). Comparison of inferred ancestry proportions between the autosomes and X chromosome in Cluster M is indicative of sex-biased admixture with an overabundance of males with Middle Eastern (Syrian-like) ancestry and females with sub-Saharan African (Yoruba-like) ancestry. Moreover, we infer a lower proportion of sub-Saharan ancestry older than previously described in all admixture events dated from the first century B.C., which could be attributed to more ancient slave trade during the Roman or Islamic periods, such as the servile Haratin population of Nilo-Saharan origin in Berber groups such as the Sanhadja and Zenata (Newman 1995). Caution is warranted, however, as there are serious difficulties in reliably estimating the proportions contributed by each source population in the admixture events, mainly because the lack of a proper ancestral North African population. In our analyses, we have considered the population from Tunisia Chenini as the best proxy, but genetic drift in Chenini samples due to isolation and interbreeding might substantially underestimate the contribution of the autochthonous ancestral groups in extant North African populations."
If you don't believe me I invite you to directly ask them and you'll see.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
here a blond berber from morocco :
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Def. looks "White" he probably had a distance Morisco ancestor from his Broadly S. European match.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: This guy is from my region and I match with his father :
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
here a moroccan from my region :
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Def. looks "White" he probably had a distance Morisco ancestor from his Broadly S. European match.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: This guy is from my region and I match with his father :
Blond berbers are attested since antiquity and south europeans themselves are rarely blond. I've also checked his results and there is nothing special he's not more euro-shifted than the average
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
Algerian with some distant tunisian ancestors :
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
I mean he def. has an Iranian/Persian rather than Euroean look to him, He def. looks like depictions of Temahu by A. Egyptian artists..
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Def. looks "White" he probably had a distance Morisco ancestor from his Broadly S. European match.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: This guy is from my region and I match with his father :
Blond berbers are attested since antiquity and south europeans themselves are rarely blond. I've also checked his results and there is nothing special he's not more euro-shifted than the average
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Get outta town. No Gafsians in that chart.
Look at the map again, no, study the map.
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
quote:This guy doesn't understand that sometimes moors were represented as black skinned because it was seen as demoniac it was a way to belittle them
How the hell did I miss this slick little post! You delusional Farq, your not showing ethnic Berbers, your showing ethnic Aladusians! You know, the people the Moors conquered and converted! And no, they were not presented as Blacks to belittle them, that's you talking out of your ass! They were portrayed as Blacks because they were Black!
Take note of this guy's quick response to my post, people. He literally tried to dismiss these Medieval European paintings as mere exaggeration and slander! Most of the images that I posted simply just depicts battle scenes of White and Black armies attacking each other, yet it's an exaggeration some how! Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
I have absolutely no problem with this man as reppin' a pristine N Afr type by looks and parental HGs.
He got that Old Epi-Paleolithic Maurusian based maternal line. He got that paternal lineage from NE & N Afr from when Tamazight developed.
At last dead on target this time congrats
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Algerian with some distant tunisian ancestors :
Really reminds of a Bardo Museum herm type.
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: look at this hysterical afrocentrist lmao ...after that he dares to call me a mentally sick person...ironic
I posted enough evidence go contradict them I will not answer to the book you just wrote haha
Another slick comment I accidentally missed! I posted more peer reviewed studies than you! Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Funny enough her amount of Ashkenazi is similar to what I got on my test...I also had a similar reaction.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Funny enough I got a match to Morisco Spainish/Canary...though its distant and took Ged Match and other extra DNA tools to become evident...it shows up on my official Test as Portuguese and African
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Def. looks "White" he probably had a distance Morisco ancestor from his Broadly S. European match.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: This guy is from my region and I match with his father :
Blond berbers are attested since antiquity and south europeans themselves are rarely blond. I've also checked his results and there is nothing special he's not more euro-shifted than the average
Nevertheless, it is generally understood that the scene is a realistic depiction of an activity that commonly took place there: a meeting of dignitaries in the presence of the Sultan or leading members of the Court.
The figures, whose features depict venerable westerners, are seen seated in traditional fashion and gesturing while having a lively conversation. They are ceremoniously dressed, bearing swords and wearing belts and Nasrid style turbans.
In fairness, a few Nasrid rulers were predominately Frankish in blood and sensitive of it they dyed at least their beards to black. Muslim "Spain" was diverse and cosmopolitan in many ways.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: And Al Tukruri or whatever his name is, is full of ish. There is definetely words with the consonants MHR or MGR to mean West in Afro- Asiatic languages. Think Maghreb.
No Semitic root m-h-r meaning west else cite the
1 - author, 2 - lexicon, and 3 - page number
in linquistic proof. Same goes for m-g-r.
m-h-r ≠ m-g-r
m-g-r ≠ west
m-`-r-b <= `-r-b meaning dusk[y], crow, Arab, and is obviously the Semitic root ma`arab whence Maghreb pay attention to the final b. No west without it.
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: These aren't even white Moors.
Nevertheless, it is generally understood that the scene is a realistic depiction of an activity that commonly took place there: a meeting of dignitaries in the presence of the Sultan or leading members of the Court.
The figures, whose features depict venerable westerners, are seen seated in traditional fashion and gesturing while having a lively conversation. They are ceremoniously dressed, bearing swords and wearing belts and Nasrid style turbans.
In fairness, a few Nasrid rulers were predominately Frankish in blood and sensitive of it they dyed at least their beards to black. Muslim "Spain" was diverse and cosmopolitan in many ways.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: And Al Tukruri or whatever his name is, is full of ish. There is definetely words with the consonants MHR or MGR to mean West in Afro- Asiatic languages. Think Maghreb.
No Semitic root m-h-r meaning west else cite the
1 - author, 2 - lexicon, and 3 - page number
in linquistic proof. Same goes for m-g-r.
m-h-r ≠ m-g-r
m-g-r ≠ west
m-`-r-b <= `-r-b meaning dusk[y], crow, Arab, and is obviously the Semitic root ma`arab whence Maghreb pay attention to the final b. No west without it.
Shocking! Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Funny enough I got a match to Morisco Spainish/Canary...though its distant and took Ged Match and other extra DNA tools to become evident...it shows up on my official Test as Portuguese and African
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Def. looks "White" he probably had a distance Morisco ancestor from his Broadly S. European match.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: This guy is from my region and I match with his father :
Blond berbers are attested since antiquity and south europeans themselves are rarely blond. I've also checked his results and there is nothing special he's not more euro-shifted than the average
Yes it's not surprising for someone from the new world some guanches were sent to america and some moriscos settled there
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
moroccan woman from Souss (morocco) :
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: If the president had lighter skin you would not be saying he was Mulatto, he has not other features of Mulatto except his dark brown skin...
here is a photo of some Amazigh from Tunis
He could be descended from Saharan Amazigh...his DNA profile would be interesting..
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: lol this thread is def. turned into Deshret material..
@Nassa...IDK, President Mucef dosnt have any sterotypical traits of SSA admixture, he has straight hair and thin nose/lips.
I mean come on be honest (of course his traits are not typically "negroid" don't forget that he has also a north african component I can show you plenty of mulattoes with caucasoid features)
These people descend from haratins I already explained you multiple times they are way less indigenous than the white skinned berbers :
" Our most recent estimated dates correlate with sub-Saharan admixture in North Africa, which is continuous during the last few centuries (from the 13th century to the 20th century, see cluster L in fig. 5), as previously suggested by historical records (Newman 1995) and genetic data (Harich et al. 2010; Henn et al. 2012). However, it is noteworthy that very precise dates are found in some cases in the 17th century in western clusters (see cluster K and M). The admixture dates in the 17th century could be the consequence of the trans-Saharan slave trade that resulted from the Ottoman rule in North Africa and the arrival of the Crown of Castile and the Portuguese Kingdom to the West African seaports in the 16th century. The Iberian presence, driven by the search of a workforce in their recent settled Atlantic territories, modified the political and socioeconomic structure of Western Africa. This also intensified traffic through trans-Saharan routes to North Africa after the emergence of the sugar industry in this region and the Atlantic territories (Newman 1995; Oliver and Atmore 2001; Da Mosto 2003). Comparison of inferred ancestry proportions between the autosomes and X chromosome in Cluster M is indicative of sex-biased admixture with an overabundance of males with Middle Eastern (Syrian-like) ancestry and females with sub-Saharan African (Yoruba-like) ancestry. Moreover, we infer a lower proportion of sub-Saharan ancestry older than previously described in all admixture events dated from the first century B.C., which could be attributed to more ancient slave trade during the Roman or Islamic periods, such as the servile Haratin population of Nilo-Saharan origin in Berber groups such as the Sanhadja and Zenata (Newman 1995). Caution is warranted, however, as there are serious difficulties in reliably estimating the proportions contributed by each source population in the admixture events, mainly because the lack of a proper ancestral North African population. In our analyses, we have considered the population from Tunisia Chenini as the best proxy, but genetic drift in Chenini samples due to isolation and interbreeding might substantially underestimate the contribution of the autochthonous ancestral groups in extant North African populations."
Also, your little revisionist theory doesn’t add up!
“Except for the Zanj (Swahili slaves) from lower Iraq, no large body of blacks historically linked to the trans-Saharan slave trade existed anywhere in the Arab world...The high costs of slaves, because of the risks inherent in the desert crossing, which would have not permitted such a massive exodus ... In this connection, it is significant that in the Arabic iconography of the period, the slave merchant was often depicted as a man with a hole in his purse. Until the Crusades the Muslim world drew its slaves from two main sources: Eastern and Central Europe (Slavs) and Turkestan. The Sudan only came third. "
Jacques Heers argues in "Les barbaresques" (2001, pg 227) at the time of Turkish rule in Algeria, 50% of the population in the capital was composed of European-Christian slaves (even Italian slaves by the seventeenth century). Saqalibas from the Balkans were also well represented. Besides, Arab excursions displaced many of the ancestral populations of the Maghreb between the 12th-15th centuries.
The translator of Leo Africanus Robert Brown mentioned - "The many European races, including the Vandals under Genseric, and the endless European slaves who, turning renegade, became absorbed into the population must have left their mark over the all the Barbary states” (Brown, 1896, p. 203).
According to Robert Davis Tripoli, was “occasionally reportedly crowded with large numbers of Greek slaves." (Davis, 2003, Christtian Slaves Muslim Masters, White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800.p. 112)
"Our analysis of modern North Africans shows that most populations emerged recently from admixture of Africans and Eurasians and therefore are ineffective in resolving questions about ancient human expansions.”
Here another one from the Souss (they are really pure it's amazing) :
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
Your source:
“Caution is warranted, however, as there are serious difficulties in reliably estimating the proportions contributed by each source population in the admixture events, mainly because the lack of a proper ancestral North African population. In our analyses, we have considered the population from Tunisia Chenini as the best proxy, but genetic drift in Chenini samples due to isolation and interbreeding might substantially underestimate the contribution of the autochthonous ancestral groups in extant North African populations."
“By 1614 every last Morisco was gone, and Islam disappeared from the Iberian Peninsula. Going from over 500,000 people to zero in 100 years can only be described as a genocide. Indeed, the Portuguese Dominican monk, Damian Fonseca, referred to the expulsion as an “agreeable Holocaust”. The effects on Spain were grave. Its economy suffered greatly, as a large part of the labor force was gone, and tax revenues dropped. In North Africa, Muslim rulers attempted to provide for the hundreds of thousands of refugees, but in many cases, were unable to do much to help them. The Moriscos of North Africa spent centuries trying to assimilate into society, but still kept their unique Andalusian identity.”
“To this day, neighborhoods in major North African cities boast of their Morisco identities and keep alive the memory of Muslim Spain’s glorious past. They remind us of the illustrious history of the Iberian Peninsula, as well the tragic story of their expulsion from their homes in the one of the greatest genocides Europe has ever seen.”
The expulsion of Muslims from Spain was so bad that some considered it genocide and it is still felt today. But hey... Let the Eurocentrics tell it and the Northwest African population always looked the way they did. This is why we start seeing pale skinned Berbers in large frequencies around the 15th and 16th century. This is where we see the bulk of the Eurasian admixture. It's clear that Blacks were far than being a minority in Ancient times as you can see here….
“subsaharan population affinities in living Maghrebans as being solely the result of the medieval transsaharan slave trade; it is clear that this is not the case. Furthermore, the blacks of the ancient Maghreb were apparently not foreign or a caste."
Source: (S.O.Y Keita, "Studies of Ancient Crania From Northern Africa," American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 83:35-48 (1990)
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Pretty uncanny...same skin color and everything..
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Pretty uncanny...same skin color and everything..
This Ancient quote fits perfectly into this.
“And I have heard this man say that beyond the country which he ruled there was no habitation of men, but desert land extending to a great distance, and that beyond that there are men not black-skinned like the Mauretanii, but very white in body and fair-haired.”
Source: History of the Wars, Books III.xxv.3-9; IV.vi.10-14, vii.3, xi.16-20, xiii.26-29
Although, the Libyans are actually raven haired, instead of fair haired.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
This guy is always posting old and outdated data because only them support his claims.
While this is the reality :
here how egyptians depicted berbers :
How persians depicted them :
Now about genetics :
"A proportion of 1/4 to 1/2 of North African female pool is made of typical sub-Saharan lineages, in higher frequencies as geographic proximity to sub-Saharan Africa increases. The Sahara was a strong geographical barrier against gene flow, at least since 5,000 years ago, when desertification affected a larger region, but the Arab trans-Saharan slave trade could have facilitate enormously this migration of lineages. " " The interpolation analyses and complete sequencing of present mtDNA sub-Saharan lineages observed in North Africa support the genetic impact of recent trans-Saharan migrations, namely the slave trade initiated by the Arab conquest of North Africa in the seventh century. Sub-Saharan people did not leave traces in the North African maternal gene pool for the time of its settlement, some 40,000 years ago. "
the biggest non-indigenous component that influenced north africans is the black one not the arab or european one.
same conclusion in another study about egypt :
"By comparing ancient individuals from Abusir el-Meleq with modern Egyptian reference populations, we found an influx of sub-Saharan African ancestry after the Roman Period, which corroborates the findings by Henn and colleagues16. Further investigation would be needed to link this influx to particular historic processes. Possible causal factors include increased mobility down the Nile and increased long-distance commerce between sub-Saharan Africa and Egypt49. Trans-Saharan slave trade may have been particularly important as it moved between 6 and 7 million sub-Saharan slaves to Northern Africa over a span of some 1,250 years, reaching its high point in the nineteenth century "
" Herodotus lists two new peoples - the Greeks and the Phoenicians - and two indigenous peoples - the Libyans to the north and the Aethiopes * to the south - living in "Libya" (IV 197, 2). geographic connotations: in Herodotus as in the following centuries, the term "Libyans" serves primarily as a collective name for the indigenous population of North Africa, distinguished by its lighter skin and other characters compared to the Negroid Ethiopians (for a detailed catalog of "Libyan" tribes in this sense, attested through antiquity, cf. Desanges 1962"
"Among ancient populations, early Neolithic Moroccans share affinities with Levantine Natufian hunter-gatherers (~9,000 BCE) and Pre-Pottery Neolithic farmers (~6,500 BCE).Late Neolithic (~3,000 BCE) Moroccan remains, in comparison, share an Iberian component of a prominent European-wide demic expansion, supporting theories of trans-Gibraltar gene flow. Finally, the Andalusian Early Neolithic samples share the same genetic composition as the Cardial Mediterranean Neolithic culture that reached Iberia ~5,500 BCE. The cultural and genetic similarities of the Iberian Neolithic cultures with that of North African Neolithic sites further reinforce the model of an Iberian intrusion into the Maghreb "https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/09/21/191569
So as I said before this european/iberian component was already there 5000 years ago.
" The results of this study show that there is a native genetic component that defines North Africans.In-depth study of these markers shows that the people inhabiting North Africa today are not descendants of the earliest occupants of this region fifty thousand years ago, but shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were a group of populations that already lived in the region around thirteen thousand years ago . Furthermore, this local North African genetic component is very different from the one found in the populations in the south of the Sahara, which shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were members of a subgroup of humanity who left Africa to conquer the rest of the world and who subsequently returned to the north of the continent to settle in the region " (https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1002397)
So 13 000 years ago North africans were already similar to modern north africans + the native NA component is very different from the one found in SSA.
Ase talking about asiatic invaders what she doesn't know is that these asiatics came way earlier :
"Evidence of Neolithic migration from the Near East is supported by the introduction of domestic animals like cows, sheep and goats to North africa." (Henn et al; 2012)
"The contemporary North African gene pool diverged from the Near Eastern one and expanded in North Africa before the Holocene , a concept jointly confirmed by mtDNA and nuclear genomic data." (Pereira et al.,2010b; Henn et al., 2012; Podgorna et al.,2013; Fregel et al, 2013
“ We conclude that the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations. As others have noted, Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well ”
Again another study who confirms the impact of the trans-saharan slave trade :
" Our most recent estimated dates correlate with sub-Saharan admixture in North Africa, which is continuous during the last few centuries (from the 13th century to the 20th century, see cluster L in fig. 5), as previously suggested by historical records (Newman 1995) and genetic data (Harich et al. 2010; Henn et al. 2012). However, it is noteworthy that very precise dates are found in some cases in the 17th century in western clusters (see cluster K and M). The admixture dates in the 17th century could be the consequence of the trans-Saharan slave trade that resulted from the Ottoman rule in North Africa and the arrival of the Crown of Castile and the Portuguese Kingdom to the West African seaports in the 16th century. The Iberian presence, driven by the search of a workforce in their recent settled Atlantic territories, modified the political and socioeconomic structure of Western Africa. This also intensified traffic through trans-Saharan routes to North Africa after the emergence of the sugar industry in this region and the Atlantic territories (Newman 1995; Oliver and Atmore 2001; Da Mosto 2003). Comparison of inferred ancestry proportions between the autosomes and X chromosome in Cluster M is indicative of sex-biased admixture with an overabundance of males with Middle Eastern (Syrian-like) ancestry and females with sub-Saharan African (Yoruba-like) ancestry. Moreover, we infer a lower proportion of sub-Saharan ancestry older than previously described in all admixture events dated from the first century B.C., which could be attributed to more ancient slave trade during the Roman or Islamic periods, such as the servile Haratin population of Nilo-Saharan origin in Berber groups such as the Sanhadja and Zenata (Newman 1995). Caution is warranted, however, as there are serious difficulties in reliably estimating the proportions contributed by each source population in the admixture events, mainly because the lack of a proper ancestral North African population. In our analyses, we have considered the population from Tunisia Chenini as the best proxy, but genetic drift in Chenini samples due to isolation and interbreeding might substantially underestimate the contribution of the autochthonous ancestral groups in extant North African populations"
" We show that Early Neolithic Moroccans (~5,000 BCE) are similar to LaterStone Age individuals from the same region and possess an endemicelement retained in present-day Maghrebi populations, confirminga long-term genetic continuity in the region. " ". It is worthmentioning that, compared with current North African samples,IAM and KEB do not show any sub-Saharan African ancestry in theMEGA-HGDP ADMIXTURE analysis, suggesting that trans-Saharan migrations occurred after Neolithic times. This could bein agreement with the analysis of present-day genome-wide datafrom Morocco, which estimated a migration of western Africanorigin into Morocco only ~1,200 y ago"
wow 1200years ago exactly when the trans-saharan slave trade started...
"In fact, if we are trying to determine the numerical size of the contingent of Roman or Italian immigrants in Africa, we have every reason to admit that it was small: and it does not grow much even if we add immigrants to it These immigrants include senior civil servants, but subordinate office staff are recruited locally; a few large landowners, but most often they reside in Rome and are represented in Africa by stewards and farmers, many of whom local origin: some Italian, oriental or Spanish traders, in the coastal towns and in some big localities of the interior like Cirta. These are the contributions which do not change the Berber character [...] "L'afrique romaine de Louis Leschi
" In short, the army brought into Africa, in the first century, a number of men from other provinces of the Empire. But the proportion of this non-African element went on weakening until become, around 150, practically null. It was Africans who ensured order in Africa, on behalf of Rome . " -> "the auxiliary troops of the African army are recruited almost exclusively in Africa, like the 3rd legion. One exception is worth noting: that of the bodies of Syrian auxiliaries, where the authentic Syrians were always in majority" L'afrique romaine de Louis Leschi
"In 1975, the mummy of Ramesses II was taken to France for preservation. The mummy was also forensically tested by Professor Pierre-Fernand Ceccaldi, the chief forensic scientist at the Criminal Identification Laboratory of Paris. Professor Ceccaldi determined that: "Hair, astonishingly preserved, showed some complementary data - especially about pigmentation: Ramses II was a ginger haired 'cymnotricheleucoderma'." The description given here refers to a fair-skinned person with wavy ginger hair.[70][71] Subsequent microscopic inspection of the roots of Ramesses II's hair proved that the king's hair originally was red, which suggests that he came from a family of redheads.[72] This has more than just cosmetic significance: in ancient Egypt people with red hair were associated with the deity Set, the slayer of Osiris, and the name of Ramesses II's father, Seti I, means "follower of Seth."[73]"
Furthermore it should be said that the DNA evidence from Taforalt shows West Eurasian ancestry has been in North African since at least the Pleistocene. In the recent Dzudzuana paper, they model Taforalt as approx. 72% Dzudzuana (West Eurasian+Basal Eurasian) the rest of the 28% coming from a deeper Basal lineage and Sub-Saharan African DNA. It is likely that this West Eurasian ancestry in North Africa moved back and forth across the Sinai peninsula and may have been responsible for carrying E-lineages into the Levant (cc Natufians), some of which would then later return in the shape of Neolithic expansions. If we are to work with these proxies for ancestral components, Ancient Egyptians were likely a continuation of the successive waves of predominantly West Eurasian ancestry in North Africa, from the Pleistocene to the Neolithic, with a likely clinal increase in East African autosomal admixture travelling up the Nile. Haplogroups I would speculate as E-V12, V22, M34, Z830 plus T1a and later, J1 and J2 with the Iranian component introduced. Maternally, M1, HV1b, U1-U6, RO, J1&2 and T1 with a clinal increase in L lineages further south. All of which are common in North Africa today and have not really changed. Absent the recent Trans-Saharan slave trade and Arabian admixture, Copts - as a more conservative religious faction of the Egyptian population - are likely the best representatives of the Ancient Egyptians.
I will end this message by adding this quote :
"By 3,000 BCE, a continuity in the Neolithic spread brought Mediterranean-like ancestry to the Maghreb, most likely from Iberia. Other archaeological remains, such as African elephant ivory and ostrich eggs found in Iberian sites, confirm the existence of contacts and exchange networks through both sides of the Gibraltar strait at this time. Our analyses strongly support that at least some of the European ancestry observed today in North Africa is related to prehistoric migrations, and local Berber populations were already admixed with Europeans before the Roman conquest. Furthermore, additional European/Iberian ancestry could have reached the Maghreb after KEB people; this scenario is supported by the presence of Iberian-like Bell-Beaker pottery in more recent stratigraphic layers of IAM and KEB caves. Future paleogenomic efforts in North Africa will further disentangle the complex history of migrations that forged the ancestry of the admixed populations we observe today."
This european component was already there 5000 years ago !! Now good luck to contradict all of this.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
Btw this pic is photoshopped just look at the face of the second horse lol (white) it's obviously a fake pic :
While this one isn't photoshopped and clearly show the reality back then :
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Ase:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
To debunk your false notions that blacks were always discriminated against: I JUST got through discussing northern (non-black) predynastic Egyptians being assimilated to a culture that developed among southern Ethiopian looking Egyptians....
Upper egyptians were not black stop being delusional craniometrically horners are indeed close to caucasoid groups and I'm not even surprised that they were close to upper egyptians but it means absolutely nothing when it comes to their phenotype.[/qb]
Black and white are races. "Caucasoid" and all that other nonsense is not. "Caucasoid" looking blacks are racially profiled all the time. They too have been invaded by whites (or whites have at least attempted to invade). When blacks are being denied loans or jobs for being black the term "Caucasoid" means nothing. So don't waste my time with it.
quote:and egyptians discriminated black people :
Snipping the images because we have an image limit per post.
But anyways, could you imagine if I pulled out an WW2 image of whites fighting each other and said "see here everyone! The Germans couldn't have been white, look at all the white people they're fighting!" Humans discriminating and fighting with each other doesn't also mean they're fighting because they were different races. A strange thing to infer for someone who argues later the "Old World" doesn't involve itself with ideas of race. Prove these images demonstrated subjugation rooted in modern ideas of race (black, white, etc) or gtfo.
quote:but yeah keep believing they were asiatic invaders who stole the black/ethiopian heritage lmao
First, I never said they were Ethiopian Blacks. I said that the closest modern equivalent to the original Southern Egyptian phenotype are Black Ethiopians. You can't stop conflating phenotype to heritage for some reason. Modern Egyptians are mostly a mix of invaders from "Eurasia", Asiatic immigrants, Ancient Lower Egyptians and Ancient Upper Egyptians. They are descendants of the founders, it is their heritage. But did the founders look like modern Egyptians? if they don't look like Ethiopian/Horners, no.
quote:Yes of course when we don't agree with afrocentrists we're automatically anti-black ...go cry elsewhere I don't care about political correctness and I will never agree with complexed people who try to portray us as invaders.
Modern North Africans as a whole have origins that are mixed. Yes there may be some ancestry that involves invaders or immigrants, but I think it's fair to say there's ancestry from natives too. The proportion of that really is also going to depend on where in North Africa you're talking about, the regions history is not a monolith. The biggest problem with nearly any conversation about it is that everyone wants to establish a monolithic narrative for the people that simply doesn't exist.
I want to make it clear that wasn't accusing you of being anti-black because you are insisting North Africans harbor heritage from the natives of ancient North African. But you're denying the phenotypic diversity of Ancient North Africa included black people. You're refusing to accept that not only did the black phenotype exist, it existed among some North Africans who founded major civilizations in North Africa.
quote: And as I've said before I never denied that maybe there were some "black" groups in north africa but they were a tiny minority and only present in some part of the sahara they never played a role in our history except maybe with the XXVth dynasty in egypt who came from Nubia.
Incorrect. "Nubians" and Upper Egyptians were very close culturally, if not biologically. This cultural connection began in the predynastic--before Egypt was even a nation. Some Nubians were closest to Upper Egyptians in phenotype as well. Southern Upper Egypt from Abydos, Naqada, Ta Seti/Aswan and Hierakanopolis were the predynastic protostates that crafted the culture we associate with Egypt. The dominant culture was born among southern Egyptians and northern Sudanese. Not among non-black looking northerners. Obviously modern Egyptians have ancestry that probably includes both northerners and southerners, but phenotypically (non-black Egyptians) do not have the dominant phenotype from the Nile valley civilization. There is not racial continuity, even if we assume genetic continuity.
quote:
quote: The Sahara was a Sahel region during the historical period. Or perhaps Old Kingdom Egypt, which would've emerged at that time isn't part of the "historical period" anymore.
not it wasn't a sahel region you oversimplified the whole thing so it fits your agenda but this is the reality green sahara or not a good part of it was still desertic :
My image was of the climate conditions specifically when Egypt was formed. Yours is 3,000 before and is somewhat misleading in what it's attempting to imply about climate conditions of North Africa. During the the 8.2 kiloyear event and Younger Dryas, there were temporarily drier conditions. Nor were those drier conditions universal to all of northern Africa or Egypt (as your picture shows). Your use of this map is sort of cherrypicking....
quote:
quote:So you're saying no one used boats on the Nile? That people didn't use the Nile for nourishment as they traveled from the south to the North (and vice versa?). Lol, even if that were true, during the earlier portions of the dynastic period, Egypt was more Sahel in climate, as I stated earlier. The Sahel is certainly not void of blacks, far from it.
They used boats but the northern section of the river flows north almost entirely through the Sudanese desert to Egypt, then ends in a large delta and flows into the Mediterranean Sea that's why it was sometimes in some areas totally impossible for boats to go south and they had to walk
Kay had to shorten this run on sentence. As to my response: that doesn't prove that other blacks couldn't travel north through the river just because there was a desert. You said the "desert" prevented contact. Also, Egyptians that wanted to navigate south by water could navigate south through the Red Sea (like Hatshepsut). The Egyptians also had desert routes they used to enter Sudan. But even ignoring that, we're discussing the ability for blacks to have contact with the Egyptian people over a given period of time. If they'd have to walk along the Nile...why couldn't they? How does that not constitute as contact? Despite there being a desert, Egypt had people that weren't just surviving along the Nile but living there. But Blacks couldn't also just walk along it?
quote:and there is no testimonial of any big travel to the south via the Nile except one roman story if I remember correctly but it was very rare that's why they didn't even know where the source of the Nile was lol[/qb]
Even if they wouldn't be able to make a big trek at once, they could over time (certainly over the span of a generation or two) be able to navigate through Egypt. In the big picture, other black Africans could and did have contact with Egypt. You wouldn't have been able to make the argument that Egyptians discriminated against "Nubians" because they were black, if the Sahara prevented contact.
quote:there is no black phenotypes stop being delusional
Socially there are features that as a whole have been arbitrarily decided to be "black." This has great social consequence to those with those features. Saying that there's no racial prejudice based on physical features is a lie.
quote:...horners don't feel any type of connection with bantus like you quite the opposite they are racists (not a coincidence if somalians call you Jareer).
The truth of someone's race doesn't require there to be an emotional connection between all black people. In case you didn't know: West Africa was embroiled in wars as nation states and empires were on the rise. It had been these conflicts along with European fueled arms races that got many black people enslaved and sent to the Americas. I wonder how that even happened if everyone whose the same race always loves each other. And you thought I didn't know about West African history . You complain about how people shouldn't learn history beyond their most direct heritage and yet you're messing up because you don't know enough about West African history to hold this conversation. Imagine if I whined about you not being West African if you decided to educate yourself. Silly right?
quote: Also it's already well known that berbers are genetically predominantly eurasian with some SSA so there is nothing to prove here just read basic studies.
Genetics closeness doesn't prove two or more groups of people had a particular phenotype. You're trying to prove one as though it automatically proves the other (it doesn't). Stop trying to force science to bend around a pseudoescience.
quote:
quote: Phenotypic replacement, in certain portions of Africa yes. Bare minimum, that happened. Ethiopian-like features that were more common to Ancient Upper Egypt no longer have the the proportional dominance it once did.
no ethiopian like features weren't common you have no evidence for this
So I showed you a chart that demonstrated modern Ethiopians to be the closest looking to ancient Upper Egyptians and you say I provided nothing?
quote:
quote: Race isn't about "relationship" though. Only people still stuck in 19-20th century pseudoscience still believe that. Stop trying to steer the conversation into bullshit science. You'll only make yourself angrier when I don't fall for it. What you're saying makes just as much sense to assume you need to be related to all poor people of the world to research the history of poverty. Racial identity is bestowed based on phenotype, not genetic relationship. You have people that haven't had anything to do with SSAs for far longer than your ancestors, and they are still black. Civilizations that were the product of people that were mostly of a particular phenotype are then labeled "black," "white" etc.
Pls Don't bring your ridiculous american identity concepts...they don't exist in the old world
For you to say race doesn't exist in the old world is pretty funny since you earlier said blacks have always been marginalized minorities, everywhere they go in North Africa. You then tried to impose modern ideas of race on ancient people to suggest a "race war" between Egyptians and Nubians happened (it did not). How would this way of thinking occur to people who grew grown up with no idea of race? It doesn't. You've been putting your head in the sand at the suggestion that there were blacks that had a significant role in the development of Northern African civilization too. This too wouldn't really matter to a person that didn't in any way internalize race as a social construct. The whole reason you're so defensive about something like this is because you do internalize it. You still believe it's a biological construct which is why intersectionality is something that's difficult for you to comprehend.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
You guys are arguing with Nassbean over phenotype vs. genotype. Does the guy even know that many white Greeks possess E-M78 paternal lineages that are commonly found among Sudanese men??
Spaniards have the reverse-- European paternal lineages mostly R1b and African (typically Sub-Saharan) maternal lineages mainly L2 yet look totally white!
What does that tell people??
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
quote:This guy is always posting old and outdated data because only them support his claims.
While this is the reality:
No this is your fantasy! None of my materials were outdated as I said before in my last post! I suppose you didn’t have enough of that ass whooping back in our last exchanges, huh?!
here how egyptians depicted berbers
This represents one population in one region! Not all North Africans!
The Ancient Egyptians differentiated the Libyans in two main populations the Temehu and the Tehenu! Just in this region, though.
Temehu
Tehenu
Most of your spams are just vague and some don’t even match up to the Farqs you posted!
Regarding your Persian depiction though, it’s not colorized!
See, if the tributaries were colorized like this Elamite Archer,
....then you might have had a point, but you don’t!
quote:Now about genetics: ”A proportion of 1/4 to 1/2 of North African female pool is made of typical sub-Saharan lineages, in higher frequencies as geographic proximity to sub-Saharan Africa increases. The Sahara was a strong geographical barrier against gene flow, at least since 5,000 years ago, when desertification affected a larger region, but the Arab trans-Saharan slave trade could have facilitate enormously this migration of lineages. " " The interpolation analyses and complete sequencing of present mtDNA sub-Saharan lineages observed in North Africa support the genetic impact of recent trans-Saharan migrations, namely the slave trade initiated by the Arab conquest of North Africa in the seventh century. Sub-Saharan people did not leave traces in the North African maternal gene pool for the time of its settlement, some 40,000 years ago.
Are you seriously going post this when your Eurasian maternal lineage is the result of Female White Concubines also?! Come on now!
"Based on Y chromosome and mtDNA studies, Berbers seem to have been issued from admixture of North African men and Iberian women, with a variable sub-Saharian female contribution (Cherni et al. 2009; Ennafaa et al. 2009; Frigi et al. 2010; Keita et al. 2010). Their characterization through the study of seven Alu polymorphisms, and thereby establishing their position with respect to other North African and European populations, offers new genetic data that contributes towards clarifying how the North Africa was populated within the framework of population movements in the Mediterranean area.”
"Taken together, results on Y chromosome, mtDNA and Alu Insertions in North Africa allow to propose a scenario for this region. The ancient sub-Saharan settlement would have been followed by admixture with Iberian populations. But, as the North African Y chromosome remained dominant in the region, we could argue that this admixture have been realized in one direction: North African men and Eurasian women, explaining the gene flow from Europe and high frequency of European types of mtDNA in North Africa as compared with Y chromosome. This situation would not be the result of drift toward Eurasian mtDNA. Our results on Alu insertions interestingly confirm that this gene flow happened several times probably always on the same direction. These matrimonial exchanges between North Africa and Europe should be considered in a context of patriarchal societies with men attached to territory and women from different regions including Europe. Hence, genetic diversity on one hand and relationship with Europe should have been due to women. This result supports the important role that migratory movements have played in North African populations, at least since the Neolithic period and suggests their diverse origins."
quote:the biggest non-indigenous component that influenced north africans is the black one not the arab or european one.same conclusion in another study about egypt :
quote:"By comparing ancient individuals from Abusir el-Meleq with modern Egyptian reference populations, we found an influx of sub-Saharan African ancestry after the Roman Period, which corroborates the findings by Henn and colleagues16. Further investigation would be needed to link this influx to particular historic processes. Possible causal factors include increased mobility down the Nile and increased long-distance commerce between sub-Saharan Africa and Egypt49. Trans-Saharan slave trade may have been particularly important as it moved between 6 and 7 million sub-Saharan slaves to Northern Africa over a span of some 1,250 years, reaching its high point in the nineteenth century
Are you seriously go to post the Abusir study, you know that same study that mentions this!
"In their paper, the researchers acknowledged that “all our genetic data were obtained from a single site in Middle Egypt and may not be representative for all of ancient Egypt.”
It was not reflective on the predominant demographic, which was African, numbskull!
Study implied that ancient Egyptians came from the Asia, and that "sub-Saharan" Africans are recent due to the Islamic slave trades: “Schuenemann et al.1 seemingly suggest, based largely on the results of an ancient Study implied that ancient Egyptians came from the Asia, and that "sub-Saharan" Africans are recent due to the Islamic slave trade: “Schuenemann et al.1 seemingly suggest, based largely on the results of an ancient DNA study of later period remains from northern Egypt, that the”ancient Egyptians” as an entity came from Asia and that modern Egyptians “received additional sub-Saharan African admixtures in recent times” after the latest period of the pharaonic era due to the “trans-Saharan slave trade and Islamic expansion..” There are alternative interpretations of the results but which were not presented as is traditionally done, with the exception of the admission that results from southern Egyptians may have been different. The alternative interpretations involve three major considerations: 1) sampling and methodology, 2) historiography and 3) definitions as they relate to populations, origins and evolution.” Tiny sample sizes: “The whole genome sample size is too small (n=3) to accurately permit a discussion of all Egyptian population history from north to south.”
Other DNA data show substantial African affinity: “Results that are likely reliable are from studies that analyzed short tandem repeats (STRs) from Amarna royal mummies5 (1,300 BC), and of Ramesses III (1,200 BC)6; Ramesses III had the Y chromosome haplogroup E1b1a, an old African lineage7. Our analysis of STRs from Amarna and Ramesside royal mummies with popAffiliator18 based on the same published data5,6 indicates a 41.7% to 93.9% probability of SSA affinities (see Table 1); most of the individuals had a greater probability of affiliation with “SSA” which is not the only way to be “African”- a point worth repeating.”
Arbitrary definition of some DNA haplogroups as ‘Asian’ problematic: “Conceptually what genetic markers are considered to be “African” or “Asian” .. For example, the E1b1b1 (M35/78) lineage found in one Abusir el-Meleq sample is found not only in northern Africa, but is also well represented in eastern Africa and perhaps was taken to Europe across the Mediterranean before the Holocene (Trombetta, personal communication). E lineages are found in high frequency (>70%) among living Egyptians in Adaima9. The authors define all mitochondrial M1 haplogroups as “Asian” which is problematic. M1 has been postulated to have emerged in Africa10, and there is no convincing evidence supporting an M1 ancestor in Asia: many M1 daughter haplogroups (M1a) are clearly African in origin and history10. The M1a1, M1a2a, M1a1i, M1a1e variants found in the Abusir el-Meleq samples1 predate Islam and are abundant in SSA groups10, particularly in East Africa.”
So called “sub-Saharan” patterns in place from the beginning in Egypt and are not merely the product of the ‘slave trade.’ “Furthermore, SSA groups indicated to have contributed to modern Egypt do not match the Muslim trade routes that have been well documented11 as SSA groups from the great lakes and southern African regions were largely absent in the internal trading routes that went north to Egypt. It is important to note that “SSA” influence may not be due to a slave trade, an overdone explanation; the green Sahara is to be considered as Egypt is actually in the eastern Sahara. SSA affinities of modern Egyptians from Abusir El-Meleq might be attributed to ancient early settlers as there is a notable frequency of the “Bushmen canine”- deemed a SSA trait in Predynastic samples dating to 4,000 BC9 from Adaima, Upper Egypt. Haplogroup L0f, usually associated with southern Africans, is present in living Egyptians in Adaima9 and could represent the product of an ancient “ghost population” from the Green Sahara that contributed widely. Distributions and admixtures in the African past may not match current “SSA” groups12.”
Definition of ‘African’ stereotypical, even as strangely, authors exclude many actual African samples near Egypt from the data “Schuenemann et al.1 seem to implicitly suggest that only SSA equals Africa and that there are no interconnections between the various regions of Africa not rooted in the slave trade, a favorite trope. It has to be noted too that in the Islamic armies that entered Egypt that there were a notable number of eastern Africans. It is not clear why there is an emphasis on ‘sub-Saharan’ when no Saharan or supra-Saharan population samples--empirical or modelled are considered; furthermore, there is no one way to be “sub-Saharan.” In this study northern tropical Africans, such as lower and upper Nubians and adjacent southern Egyptians and Saharans were not included as comparison groups, as noted by the authors themselves.”
Also, regarding your numerical figure of African Slaves being transported to North Africa:
“An estimated 10 million slaves crossed the Red Sea, Indian Ocean, and Sahara Desert from 650 to 1900 (more than a 1000 years), compared to more than 11,656,000 that arrived official across the Atlantic from 1500 to 1900.) NO HISTORIAN can offer ANYTHING BEYOND SPECULATION for this number since records do not exist anywhere to support any claim either way.”
Oops
quote:Herodotus lists two new peoples - the Greeks and the Phoenicians - and two indigenous peoples - the Libyans to the north and the Aethiopes * to the south - living in "Libya" (IV 197, 2). geographic connotations: in Herodotus as in the following centuries, the term "Libyans" serves primarily as a collective name for the indigenous population of North Africa, distinguished by its lighter skin and other characters compared to the Negroid Ethiopians (for a detailed catalog of "Libyan" tribes in this sense, attested through antiquity, cf. Desanges 1962"
Oh my God, your really that desperate are you? Here’s something that might help with your desperation.
"An earlier generation of anthropologists tried to explain face form in the Horn of Africa as the result of admixture from hypothetical “wandering Caucasoids,” (Adams, 1967, 1979; MacGaffey, 1966; Seligman, 1913, 1915, 1934), but that explanation founders on the paradox of why that supposedly potent “Caucasoid” people contributed a dominant quantity of genes for nose and face form but none for skin color or limb proportions. It makes far better sense to regard the adaptively significant features seen in the Horn of Africa as solely an in situ response on the part of separate adaptive traits to the selective forces present in the hot dry tropics of Eastern Africa. From the observation that 12,000 years was not a long enough period of time to produce any noticeable variation in pigment by latitude in the New World and that 50,000 years has been barely long enough to produce the beginnings of a gradation in Australia (Brace, 1993a), one would have to argue that the inhabitants of the Upper Nile and the East Horn of Africa have been equatorial for many tens of thousands of years."
By the way, the Libyans were not differentiated from the Ethiopians, which in its geographical sense denoted the areas across Africa that Greeks did not have a clear understanding. There are few examples of the Libyans being described as White and when there always in the minority, as this Ancient quote reveals which group of Libyans were more numerous.
“And I have heard this man say that beyond the country which he ruled there was no habitation of men, but desert land extending to a great distance, and that beyond that there are men not black-skinned like the Mauretanii, but very white in body and fair-haired.”
Source: History of the Wars, Books III.xxv.3-9; IV.vi.10-14, vii.3, xi.16-20, xiii.26-29
quote:”Among ancient populations, early Neolithic Moroccans share affinities with Levantine Natufian hunter-gatherers (~9,000 BCE) and Pre-Pottery Neolithic farmers (~6,500 BCE). Late Neolithic (~3,000 BCE) Moroccan remains, in comparison, share an Iberian component of a prominent European-wide demic expansion, supporting theories of trans-Gibraltar gene flow. Finally, the Andalusian Early Neolithic samples share the same genetic composition as the Cardial Mediterranean Neolithic culture that reached Iberia ~5,500 BCE. The cultural and genetic similarities of the Iberian Neolithic cultures with that of North African Neolithic sites further reinforce the model of an Iberian intrusion into the Maghreb
How many times are you going to ignore the obvious, these Eurasian components were displaced and absorbed by the predominant population at the time Sub Saharan Africans! The replacement went the other way around!
“Our objective is to highlight the age of sub-Saharan gene flows in North Africa and particularly in Tunisia. Therefore we analyzed in a broad phylogeographic context sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroups of Tunisian Berber populations considered representative of ancient settlement. More than 2,000 sequences were collected from the literature, and networks were constructed. The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago. Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa. The present work suggests that sub-Saharan contributions to North Africa have experienced several complex population processes after the occupation of the region by anatomically modern humans. Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.”
Also, how many times do I have to tell you people, these Prehistoric Eurasians, particularly from Western Eurasia did not resemble you Farqs!
“The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants, although the prehistoric/modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa. Basques and Canary Islanders are clearly associated with modern Europeans. When canonical variates are plotted, neither sample ties in with Cro-Magnon as was once suggested.”
Source: A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal Diversity in Africa
Even if there was a mass displacement of prominent African populations present in North Africa in prehistoric times, these invaders would have resembled the Africans they were displacing and not you Farqs, sorry!
Reconstruction of Natufian Man
Compared to this Farq!
quote:The results of this study show that there is a native genetic component that defines North Africans. In-depth study of these markers shows that the people inhabiting North Africa today are not descendants of the earliest occupants of this region fifty thousand years ago, but shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were a group of populations that already lived in the region around thirteen thousand years ago . Furthermore, this local North African genetic component is very different from the one found in the populations in the south of the Sahara, which shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were members of a subgroup of humanity who left Africa to conquer the rest of the world and who subsequently returned to the north of the continent to settle in the region
I not sure what your posting here, are you actually agreeing that contemporary North Africans are not the same population in Ancient time?
"Our analysis of modern North Africans shows that most populations emerged recently from admixture of Africans and Eurasians and therefore are ineffective in resolving questions about ancient human expansions.”
“Haplogroup E1b1b (formerly known as E3b) represents the last major direct exodus from Africa into Europe believed to have appeared first in the Horn of Africa about 26,000 years ago and scattered to North Africa and the Near East during the late Paleolithic and Mesolithic periods. E1b1b lineages are closely linked to the diffusion of Afro-asiatic languages.”
“The highest genetic diversity of haplogroup E1b1b is noted in Northeast Africa region in Ethiopia and Somalia, which also have the monopoly of older and rarer sub-clades like M281, V6 or V92.”
quote:Here for some people who still think NAs were black 2000 years ago while eurasian migrations to north africa already started 45 000 years ago "Back-migrations to Africa, Starting with Eurasia to North Africa around 45,000 years ago
Idiot, I already went over this. These Prehistoric Eurasians were eventually displaced by the Afrasian Speakers.
Here are genetic signatures of the Amazigh ancestors.
“The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago. Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP.”
“E3b1-M78 predominates in Egypt and Ethiopia, E3b3-M123 in Oman, and E3b2-M81 in northwestern Africa. Importantly, these three sublineages are restricted to regions north of the equator. In contrast, the E3b*-M35 lineages appear to be confined almost exclusively to the sub-Saharan populations. Since the E3b*-M35 lineages appear to be confined mostly to the sub-Saharan populations, it is conceivable that the initial migrations toward North Africa from the south primarily involved derivative E3b-M35 lineages. This proposal is in accordance with a population expansion involving E3b2-M81 believed to have occurred in northwestern Africa.“
“Our high-resolution phylogenetic dissection of both haplogroups and coalescent time assessments suggest that the extant main branching pattern of both haplogroups arose and diversified in the mid-later Upper Palaeolithic, with some sub-clades concomitantly with the expansion of the Iberomaurusian industry. Carriers of these maternal lineages have been later absorbed into and diversified further during the spread of Afro-Asiatic languages in North and East Africa.”
And again these Eurasians did not looked anything like you!
quote:“early West Asians resemble Africans.”
Source: (Hanihara T. Comparison of craniofacial features of major human groups. Am J Phys Anthropol. 1996 Mar;99(3):389-412.)
quote: Ase talking about asiatic invaders what she doesn't know is that these asiatics came way earlier :
"Evidence of Neolithic migration from the Near Eastis supported by the introduction of domestic animals like cows, sheep and goats to North africa." (Henn et al; 2012)
Okay....
"Ofer Bar-Yosef cites the microburin technique and “microlithic forms such as arched backed bladelets and La Mouillah points" as well as the parthenocarpic figs found in Natufian territory originated in the Sudan."
Source: Bar-Yosef O., Pleistocene connections between Africa and SouthWest Asia
"From the Mesolithic to the early Neolithic period different lines of evidence support an out-of-Africa Mesolithic migration to the Levant by northeastern African groups that had biological affinities with sub-Saharan populations. From a genetic point of view, several recent genetic studies have shown that sub Saharan genetic lineages (affiliated with the Y-chromosome PN2 clade; Underhill et al. 2001) have spread through Egypt into the Near East, the Mediterranean area, and, for some lineages, as far north as Turkey (E3b-M35 Y lineage; Cinniogclu et al. 2004; Luis et al. 2004), probably during several dispersal episodes since the Mesolithic (Cinniogelu et al. 2004; King et al. 2008; Lucotte and Mercier 2003; Luis et al. 2004; Quintana-Murci et al. 1999; Semino et al. 2004; Underhill et al. 2001). This finding is in agreement with morphological data that suggest that populations with sub-Saharan morphological elements were present in northeastern Africa, from the Paleolithic to at least the early Holocene, and diffused northward to the Levant and Anatolia beginning in the Mesolithic…This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations...”
Source: (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005)
“In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005), in concordance with a process of demie diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994)."
“A late Pleistocene-early Holocene northward migration (from Africa to the Levant and Anatolia) of these populations has been hypothesized from skeletal data (Angel 1972, 1973; Brace 2005) and from archaeological data, as indicated by the probable Nile Valley origin of the "Mesolithic" (epi-Paleolithic) Mushabi culture found in the Levant (Bar Yosef 1987). This migration finds some support in the presence in Mediterranean populations (Sicily, Greece, southern Turkey, etc.; Patrinos et al.; Schiliro et al. 1990) of the Benin sickle cell haplotype.”
Source: Ricaut et al 2008. Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Popion Hum Bio 80:5 535-64
quote:"The contemporary North African gene pool diverged from the Near Eastern one and expanded in North Africa before the Holocene , a concept jointly confirmed by mtDNA and nuclear genomic data." (Pereira et al.,2010b; Henn et al., 2012; Podgorna et al.,2013; Fregel et al, 2013
I already answered this! Scroll up if you have to
quote:We conclude that the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations. As others have noted, Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well
Dubious, an exaggerated conclusion on Brace’s part. They have been genetically impacted by foreign migrations. Also, contradict much. I thought the Trans Saharan Slave Trade affected the Egyptian population. Again, I already admitted to continuity between North Africans and their ancestors, now it’s time for you to admit to a discontinuity between them.
“Alexander the Great’s conquest of Egypt, in 332 BCE, precipitated a period of “mass immigration.”
"The Late Period is often singled out as the time when mass immigration into Egypt altered the character of the country"
Source: “A Companion to Ancient History”
“Ptolemy II Philadelphus, who gave parcels of the new and very fertile land to (4000) of his Greek and Macedonian veterans, which provided the region with a fresh profusion of humanity”.
“During the Ptolemaic Period, settlers in the Fayoum were mostly Greeks and Macedonians, but there were also groups of Jews, Persians, Arabs, Syrians, Thracians and Samaritans. here, an interesting process took place for, unlike the Greeks in Alexandria who remained mostly a homogeneous community for many years, the Greeks of the Fayyum intermarried with native Egyptians, as did the other nationalities”.
“Hence, the Fayoum became a great melting pot in which racial purity did not long survive. later, in the Roman Period, many veterans of the Roman army, who, initially at least, were not Egyptian but people from disparate cultural backgrounds, settled in the area after the completion of their service, and formed social relations and intermarried with local population”.
Source: The History of the Fayoum Oasis in Egypt
Egyptian majority population lived in contact (sometimes closer, sometimes more distant; sometimes more frequent, sometimes less frequent) with non-Egyptians populations who had come to reside in Egypt by the Hellenistic period these non-Egyptian populations included large numbers of Greeks and Macedonians who had settled in Egypt after its conquest by Alexander the Great, as well as Jews and other Semitic-speaking people from Syria-Palestine; after Egypts incorporation into the Roman empire, Roman citizens and Roman soldiers from around the empire appear more and more frequently.
Source: Life in a Multi-Cultural Society: Egypt from Cambyses to Constantine and Beyond
Their new settlement, Alexandria, was a predominantly Greek city[/b[, which was officially described as being ad Aegyptum. it was an intrusion into an alien country. In Alexandria, Greeks formed the bulk of the population, followed in number by the Jews.
Source: "The People of Africa" 1975, p.53, 54.
“It is possible that the genetic impact of Greek and Roman immigration was more pronounced in the North-Western Delta and the Fayyum, where most Greek and Roman settlement concentrated or among the higher classes of Egyptian society. Under Ptolemaic and Roman rule, ethnic descent was crucial to belonging to an elite group and afforded a privileged position in society. Especially in the Roman Period there may have been significant legal and social incentives to marry within one's ethnic group, as individuals with Roman citizenship had to marry other Roman citizens to pass on their citizenship. such policies are likely to have affected the intermarriage of romans and non-Romans to a degree. additional genetic studies on ancient human remains from Egypt are needed with extensive geographical, social and chronological spread in order to expand our current picture in variety, accuracy and detail”.
"Our analysis of modern North Africans shows that most populations emerged recently from admixture of Africans and Eurasians and therefore are ineffective in resolving questions about ancient human expansions.”
quote:Again another study who confirms the impact of the trans-saharan slave trade :
" <b>Our most recent estimated dates correlate with sub-Saharan admixture in North Africa, which is continuous during the last few centuries (from the 13th century to the 20th century, see cluster L in fig. 5), as previously suggested by historical records (Newman 1995) and genetic data (Harich et al. 2010; Henn et al. 2012). However, it is noteworthy that very precise dates are found in some cases in the 17th century in western clusters (see cluster K and M). The admixture dates in the 17th century could be the consequence of the trans-Saharan slave trade that resulted from the Ottoman rule in North Africa and the arrival of the Crown of Castile and the Portuguese Kingdom to the West African seaports in the 16th century. The Iberian presence, driven by the search of a workforce in their recent settled Atlantic territories, modified the political and socioeconomic structure of Western Africa. This also intensified traffic through trans-Saharan routes to North Africa after the emergence of the sugar industry in this region and the Atlantic territories (Newman 1995; Oliver and Atmore 2001; Da Mosto 2003). Comparison of inferred ancestry proportions between the autosomes and X chromosome in Cluster M is indicative of sex-biased admixture with an overabundance of males with Middle Eastern (Syrian-like) ancestry and females with sub-Saharan African (Yoruba-like) ancestry. Moreover, we infer a lower proportion of sub-Saharan ancestry older than previously described in all admixture events dated from the first century B.C., which could be attributed to more ancient slave trade during the Roman or Islamic periods, such as the servile Haratin population of Nilo-Saharan origin in Berber groups such as the Sanhadja and Zenata (Newman 1995). Caution is warranted, however, as there are serious difficulties in reliably estimating the proportions contributed by each source population in the admixture events, mainly because the lack of a proper ancestral North African population. In our analyses, we have considered the population from Tunisia Chenini as the best proxy, but genetic drift in Chenini samples due to isolation and interbreeding might substantially underestimate the contribution of the autochthonous ancestral groups in extant North African populations"
Brilliant Idiot, i’m denying the existence of the Trans Saharan Slave Trade, i’m questioning it’s genetic impact on the North African populous!
"Except for the Zanj (Swahili Slaves) from lower Iraq, no large body of blacks historically linked to the trans-Saharan slave trade existed anywhere in the Arab World...The high costs of slaves, because of the risks inherent in the desert crossing, which would have not permitted such a massive exodus...In this connection, it is significant that in the Arabic iconography of the period, the slave merchant was often depicted as a man with a hole in his purse. Until the Crusades the Muslim world drew its slaves from two main sources: Eastern and Central Europe (Slavs) and Turkestan. The Sudan only came third."
”But, as the North African Y chromosome remained dominant in the region, we could argue that this admixture have been realized in one direction: North African men and Eurasian women, explaining the gene flow from Europe and high frequency of European types of mtDNA in North Africa as compared with Y chromosome.”
“Hence, genetic diversity on one hand and relationship with Europe should have been due to women.”
”The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago. Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP.”
”Caution is warranted, however, as there are serious difficulties in reliably estimating the proportions contributed by each source population in the admixture events, mainly because the lack of a proper ancestral North African population. In our analyses, we have considered the population from Tunisia Chenini as the best proxy, but genetic drift in Chenini samples due to isolation and interbreeding might substantially underestimate the contribution of the autochthonous ancestral groups in extant North African populations"
Oops!
quote:"We show that Early Neolithic Moroccans (~5,000 BCE) are similar to LaterStone Age individuals from the same region and possess an endemicelement retained in present-day Maghrebi populations, confirminga long-term genetic continuity in the region. " ". It is worthmentioning that, compared with current North African samples,IAM and KEB do not show any sub-Saharan African ancestry in theMEGA-HGDP ADMIXTURE analysis, suggesting that trans-Saharan migrations occurred after Neolithic times. This could bein agreement with the analysis of present-day genome-wide datafrom Morocco, which estimated a migration of western Africanorigin into Morocco only ~1,200 y ago"
wow 1200years ago exactly when the trans-saharan slave trade started...
Yawn, we went over this! The Trans Saharan Slave Trade was not significant in affecting North Africans demographically! Also, in regards to this claim, yeah it happened, but it wasn’t as significant until the height of the Ottomans expansion, that the Slave Trade increased though! Also, “there was and I quote....
“A low African Diaspora in the Arab lands due to the proliferation of miscegenation, the dynamics of being classified as an Arab, and the degree or easy of Arabization.”
Source: Mazrui making of Arabs and new Muslims
So, how were these Slaves significantly affective on the majority of the population, if their population was still low? Don’t get me wrong, i’m not saying there aren’t significant Black populations outside of Africa, but for the most part they seems to be always in the minority as you said, but in this case as Slaves! Also, depending on the time period the majority of Sub Saharan African connections in Asia or North Africa for that matter was not the result of slavery, but commercial ties!
quote:In fact, if we are trying to determine the numerical size of the contingent of Roman or Italian immigrants in Africa, we have every reason to admit that it was small: and it does not grow much even if we add immigrants to it These immigrants include senior civil servants, but subordinate office staff are recruited locally; a few large landowners, but most often they reside in Rome and are represented in Africa by stewards and farmers, many of whom local origin: some Italian, oriental or Spanish traders, in the coastal towns and in some big localities of the interior like Cirta. These are the contributions which do not change the Berber character [...] "L'afrique romaine de Louis Leschi
" In short, the army brought into Africa, in the first century, a number of men from other provinces of the Empire. But the proportion of this non-African element went on weakening until become, around 150, practically null. It was Africans who ensured order in Africa, on behalf of Rome . " -> "the auxiliary troops of the African army are recruited almost exclusively in Africa, like the 3rd legion. One exception is worth noting: that of the bodies of Syrian auxiliaries, where the authentic Syrians were always in majority" L'afrique romaine de Louis Leschi
What is this? Are you suggesting that late antiquity and Medieval Eurasian immigrants did not affect North Africans?
“It is possible that the genetic impact of Greek and Roman immigration was more pronounced in the North-Western Delta and the Fayyum, where most Greek and Roman settlement concentrated or among the higher classes of Egyptian society.”
"Our analysis of modern North Africans shows that most populations emerged recently from admixture of Africans and Eurasians and therefore are ineffective in resolving questions about ancient human expansions.”
quote:"In 1975, the mummy of Ramesses II was taken to France for preservation. The mummy was also forensically tested by Professor Pierre-Fernand Ceccaldi, the chief forensic scientist at the Criminal Identification Laboratory of Paris. Professor Ceccaldi determined that: "Hair, astonishingly preserved, showed some complementary data - especially about pigmentation: Ramses II was a ginger haired 'cymnotricheleucoderma'." The description given here refers to a fair-skinned person with wavy ginger hair.[70][71] Subsequent microscopic inspection of the roots of Ramesses II's hair proved that the king's hair originally was red, which suggests that he came from a family of redheads.[72] This has more than just cosmetic significance: in ancient Egypt people with red hair were associated with the deity Set, the slayer of Osiris, and the name of Ramesses II's father, Seti I, means "follower of Seth."[73]"
Stop it!
Red hair itself is within the range of African diversity or that of dark-skinned peoples. Native black Australoids for example routinely produce blonde hair:
Detailed microscopic analysis during the 1980s (Balout 1985) identified some of the hair of Egyptian Pharoah Rameses II as being a yellowish-red. Such a finding should not be surprising given the wide range of physical variability in Africa, the most genetically diverse region on earth, out of which flowed other population groups. Indeed, blondism and various other hair shades are not unknown in East Africa or Nubia, particularly in children, nor are such hair color variants uncommon in dark-haired or dark skinned populations like the Australians. (Hrdy 1978) Given the range of genetic variability in Africa, a red-haired Rameses is hardly unusual. Rameses' reign, in the 19th Dynasty, came over 1,500 years after the Egyptian state had been established, and after the Hyskos interlude. Such latecomers to Egypt, like the Hyskos, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs etc would add their own genetic strands to the nation’s mix. Whatever the blend of genes that occurred with Rameses, his hair offers little supposed "proof" of a "white" or "Nordic" Egypt. If anything, X-rays of the royal mummies from earlier Dynasties by mainstream scientists show that the Egyptians pharaohs and other royals had varied 'Negroid' leanings. See X-Rays of the Royal mummies here, or here.
Pheomelanin and Rameses- found in light and dark-haired populations:
The finding of Rameses “red” hair also deserves further scrutiny. The analysis found evidence of dyeing to make the hair yellowish-red, but some elements were untouched by the dye. These elements of yellowish-red hair in Balout’s study, were established on the basis of the presence of pheomelanin, a red-brown polymeric pigment in the skin and hair of humans. However, pheomelanin can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well, which gives it a reddish hue. Most natural melanins contain sulfur, which is typically associated with pheomelanin. In scientific tests of melanin, black hair contained as much as 5% sulfur, 3% lower than the 8.8% found in Irish red hair, but exceeding the 2.3% found in Scandinavian blond hair. (Jolles, et al. 1996) Thus the yellowish-red hair discovered on Rameses is well within the range of human variation for dark haired people, whatever the exact gene combination that led to the condition. Rameses hair was not a typical European red, but yellowish-red, within African variation. It was also not ultra straight, further undermining claims of "Nordic" influence. Somalians and Ethiopians are SUB-SAHARANS they routinely produce straight-haired people without the need for any "race mix" to explain why. The analysis on Rameses also did not show classic "European" red hair but hair of a light red to yellowish tinge. Black haired or dark-skinned populations are quite capable of producing such yellowish-red color variants on their own, as can be seen in today's east and northeast Africa (see child's photo above). Nor is such color variation unusual to Africa. Native dark-skinned populations in Australia, routinely produce people with blond or reddish hair. As noted above, ultra diverse Africa is the original source of such variation.
The analysis also found the hair to be cymotrich or wavy, again a characteristic quite within the range of overall African or Nile valley physical and genetic diversity. A "pure" Nordic type of straight hair was thus not established for Rameses. Hence the notion of white Europeans or red-headed Caucasoids from other areas flowing into ancient Egypt to add hair variation, particularly the early centuries of the dynastic state is unlikely. Such flows may have occurred most heavily in the Greek and Roman era but say nothing about the thousands of years preceding. The presence of pheomelanin conditions or other genetic combinations also explains how the different hair used in Egyptian wigs could vary in color, aside from environmental oxidation, bleaching and dyeing.
Look the Nubians were blondes and redheads too!
Also this.
Claims that Rameses was of "Berber" stock are also questionable. He was Egyptian not Berber, and "Berber" is a language group, not a racial one. Rameses spoke Egyptian, not Berber. Peoples who speak the Berber language are physically diverse. Paoli 1972 for example found a significant resemblance between ABO frequencies of dynastic Egyptians and the black northern Haratin who are held to be the probable descendants of the original Saharans (Hiernaux, 1975). In Paoli's analysis the q gene frequencies between the two groups showed up in high frequencies (over 20%) and were close together. In European populations though this gene frequency is below 10%. The Haratin, as a broad group, are considered by (Cabot-Briggs 1958, Hiernaux 1975) to be not simply recent populations, but to also incorporate part of the ancient aboriginal population of North Africa as well. The Haratin are considered Berbers according to the Encyclopedia Brittanica
quote:Furthermore it should be said that the DNA evidence from Taforalt shows West Eurasian ancestry has been in North African since at least the Pleistocene. In the recent Dzudzuana paper, they model Taforalt as approx. 72% Dzudzuana (West Eurasian+Basal Eurasian) the rest of the 28% coming from a deeper Basal lineage and Sub-Saharan African DNA. It is likely that this West Eurasian ancestry in North Africa moved back and forth across the Sinai peninsula and may have been responsible for carrying E-lineages into the Levant (cc Natufians), some of which would then later return in the shape of Neolithic expansions. If we are to work with these proxies for ancestral components, Ancient Egyptians were likely a continuation of the successive waves of predominantly West Eurasian ancestry in North Africa, from the Pleistocene to the Neolithic, with a likely clinal increase in East African autosomal admixture travelling up the Nile. Haplogroups I would speculate as E-V12, V22, M34, Z830 plus T1a and later, J1 and J2 with the Iranian component introduced. Maternally, M1, HV1b, U1-U6, RO, J1&2 and T1 with a clinal increase in L lineages further south. All of which are common in North Africa today and have not really changed. Absent the recent Trans-Saharan slave trade and Arabian admixture, Copts - as a more conservative religious faction of the Egyptian population - are likely the best representatives of the Ancient Egyptians.
The fact that you keep on posting the same exact thing, really disturbs me, if I might be honest. Alright then, here’s a repost!
”It is important to note that “SSA” influence may not be due to a slave trade, an overdone explanation.”
quote:I will end this message by adding this quote :
"By 3,000 BCE, a continuity in the Neolithic spread brought Mediterranean-like ancestry to the Maghreb, most likely from Iberia. Other archaeological remains, such as African elephant ivory and ostrich eggs found in Iberian sites, confirm the existence of contacts and exchange networks through both sides of the Gibraltar strait at this time. [b]Our analyses strongly support that at least some of the European ancestry observed today in North Africa is related to prehistoric migrations, and local Berber populations were already admixed with Europeans before the Roman conquest. Furthermore, additional European/Iberian ancestry could have reached the Maghreb after KEB people; this scenario is supported by the presence of Iberian-like Bell-Beaker pottery in more recent stratigraphic layers of IAM and KEB caves. Future paleogenomic efforts in North Africa will further disentangle the complex history of migrations that forged the ancestry of the admixed populations we observe today."
This european component was already there 5000 years ago !! Now good luck to contradict all of this.
Oh, so since you conclude that there a mass displacement in the Maghreb can you also conclude that there was a mass displacement in the Iberian Peninsula?
“Being at the western fringe of Europe, Iberia had a peculiar prehistory and a complex pattern of Neolithization. A few studies, all based on modern populations, reported the presence of DNA of likely African origin in this region, generally concluding it was the result of recent gene flow, probably during the Islamic period. Here, we provide evidence of much older gene flow from Africa to Iberia by sequencing whole genomes from four human remains from northern Portugal and southern Spain dated around 4000 years BP (from the Middle Neolithic to the Bronze Age). We found one of them to carry an unequivocal sub-Saharan mitogenome of most probably West or West-Central African origin, to our knowledge never reported before in prehistoric remains outside Africa. Our analyses of ancient nuclear genomes show small but significant levels of sub-Saharan African affinity in several ancient Iberian samples, which indicates that what we detected was not an occasional individual phenomenon, but an admixture event recognizable at the population level. We interpret this result as evidence of an early migration process from Africa into the Iberian Peninsula through a western route, possibly across the Strait of Gibraltar.”
“To this end, in the present work we have screened entire mtDNA sequences belonging to U6, M1 and L haplogroups in Andalusians —from Huelva and Granada provinces—and Moroccan Berbers. We present here pioneer data and interpretations on the role of NW Africa and the Iberian Peninsula regarding the time of origin, number of founders and expansion directions of these specific markers. The estimated entrance of the North African U6 lineages into Iberia at 10 ky correlates well with other L African clades, indicating that U6 and some L lineages moved together from Africa to Iberia in the Early Holocene. Still, founder analysis highlights that the high sharing of lineages between North Africa and Iberia results from a complex process continued through time, impairing simplistic interpretations. In particular, our work supports the existence of an ancient, frequently denied, bridge connecting the Maghreb and Andalusia."
The composition of haplotypes and haplogroups of ancient samples from the Near East and the Iberian Peninsula differs markedly from that found in the current populations of these geographical regions. In the ancient Middle East show highlights in particular the absence of mitochondrial haplogroup J, U3, W and X, associated with the Neolithic expansion into Europe. This may be due either to the sample obtained is not old chronologically or geographically-representative populations of the Middle East that spread during the Neolithic well that these variants were not introduced in Europe during the Neolithic. In the ancient sample of the Iberian Peninsula highlights the presence of 50% of sub-Saharan lines. These lines may have been introduced during the Solutrean, the Mesolithic or Neolithic. This work also delved into various technical aspects of obtaining authentic ancient DNA and the influence of several variables in the preservation of genetic material.
Oops! Contradictions!
Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
AE link to the Horn has been demonstrated with DNA:
"We study the kinship of two high-status Egyptians from the 12th Dynasty.. Ancient DNA was extracted from the teeth of the two mummies.. Sequences were obtained after hybridization capture of mtDNA and Y chromosome DNA.. Both mummies belong to mt haplotype M1a1, suggesting a maternal relationship.... Y DNA sequences showed variations, indicating that the mummies had different fathers..The SNP identities were consistent with mtDNA haplogroup M1a1 with 88.05–91.27% degree of confidence, thus confirming the African origins of the two individuals."
--Drosoua et al. 2018. The kinship of two 12th Dynasty mummies revealed by ancient DNA sequencing. Jrnl of Ar Sci, v17. Feb 2018, 793-797
The people of Punt:
Ancient Egyptian royalty:
Amenhotep III
Queen Tiye
King Tut
Narmer - First Pharaoh of united Egypt
Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
Ancient Egyptian soldiers and sailors
And these are another group of 'Nubians' that look markedly differenr to the people of Punt/AE.
Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
Hello Nassbean:
I'll be responding to you in a couple of days when I get the time. You and I have some unfinished business regarding the history of your people. You will have to amswer for some of the most laughable claims you made on ABF. You actually thought that the Libyco-Berber script was invented at 3000 BC? Try 138 BC -- the oldest dated inscription.
The Obelisk you said had Libyco-Berber inscriptions is from the Numidian era, so it could not conceivably be 5000 years old. It's adorable that you would put your people on the level of Sumeria. You Berber Nationalists are absolute crackpots.
You and I will be having some fun as soon as I get the time. I tried to respond on ABF but my posts kept getting rejected so I just let it go.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Hello Nassbean:
I'll be responding to you in a couple of days when I get the time. You and I have some unfinished business regarding the history of your people. You will have to amswer for some of the most laughable claims you made on ABF. You actually thought that the Libyco-Berber script was invented at 3000 BC? Try 138 BC -- the oldest dated inscription.
The Obelisk you said had Libyco-Berber inscriptions is from the Numidian era, so it could not conceivably be 5000 years old. It's adorable that you would put your people on the level of Sumeria. You Berber Nationalists are absolute crackpots.
You and I will be having some fun as soon as I get the time. I tried to respond on ABF but my posts kept getting rejected so I just let it go.
Lol 138 BC while this is what specialists say : " The appearance of the Libyan alphabet is much older than traditionally thought (at least 6th century BC) and dates back to a time when the Phoenician-Punic influence is still limited in North Africa . The oldest documents come from regions far from the Punic poles of influence: Moroccan High Atlas, Saharan regions (Algerian Saharan Atlas, Central Sahara) ."
Lol here just an example the inscription of Azzib n'Ikkis is 2500 years old :
Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Hello Nassbean:
I'll be responding to you in a couple of days when I get the time. You and I have some unfinished business regarding the history of your people. You will have to amswer for some of the most laughable claims you made on ABF. You actually thought that the Libyco-Berber script was invented at 3000 BC? Try 138 BC -- the oldest dated inscription.
The Obelisk you said had Libyco-Berber inscriptions is from the Numidian era, so it could not conceivably be 5000 years old. It's adorable that you would put your people on the level of Sumeria. You Berber Nationalists are absolute crackpots.
You and I will be having some fun as soon as I get the time. I tried to respond on ABF but my posts kept getting rejected so I just let it go.
Lol 138 BC while this is what specialists say : " The appearance of the Libyan alphabet is much older than traditionally thought (at least 6th century BC) and dates back to a time when the Phoenician-Punic influence is still limited in North Africa . The oldest documents come from regions far from the Punic poles of influence: Moroccan High Atlas, Saharan regions (Algerian Saharan Atlas, Central Sahara) ."
Lol here just an example the inscription of Azzib n'Ikkis is 2500 years old :
ROFL at you backtracking. First it was 5000 years old and now you climb it down to 2500 years old. You've directed me to a Berber website, so I'll outright reject claims made by Berber Nationalists. You people are completely insane.
Citations from the British Musuem:
quote: There are three main explanations of its origin - the most accepted theory considers that the Libyco-Berber alphabet and principles of writing were borrowed from the Phoenician script, with other symbols added locally.
(The British Musuem -- Written in stone: the Libyco-Berber scripts)
quote: Chronology represents another challenge: although the first dated inscription on a stela is from 138 BC, some pottery sherds with Libyco-Berber symbols could date from the 3rd century BC. For some researchers the oldest date (as old as the 7th century BC) is believed to correspond to an engraving located in the Moroccan High Atlas, although that theory is still under discussion.
quote: However, some rock inscriptions (notably at Azib n'Ikkis in Morocco) have been argued to date to an earlier period on the basis of the style of the rock art accompanying them (Camps 1974.) If this dating is accepted, then the origin of the script must be pushed back, to the ninth century BC or so (Pichler 2007). The only precisely dated inscription known is from the tenth year of the Numidian king Micipsa's reign, about 138 BC.
(Libyco-Berber - 2nd (9th?) century BC-7th century AD)
There is yet no evidence that Libyco-Berber is anything other than a Punic derivative, and it's certainly not as old as (5, 00 years) as you crackpots so desperately wish to believe. Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Hello Nassbean:
I'll be responding to you in a couple of days when I get the time. You and I have some unfinished business regarding the history of your people. You will have to amswer for some of the most laughable claims you made on ABF. You actually thought that the Libyco-Berber script was invented at 3000 BC? Try 138 BC -- the oldest dated inscription.
The Obelisk you said had Libyco-Berber inscriptions is from the Numidian era, so it could not conceivably be 5000 years old. It's adorable that you would put your people on the level of Sumeria. You Berber Nationalists are absolute crackpots.
You and I will be having some fun as soon as I get the time. I tried to respond on ABF but my posts kept getting rejected so I just let it go.
Lol 138 BC while this is what specialists say : " The appearance of the Libyan alphabet is much older than traditionally thought (at least 6th century BC) and dates back to a time when the Phoenician-Punic influence is still limited in North Africa . The oldest documents come from regions far from the Punic poles of influence: Moroccan High Atlas, Saharan regions (Algerian Saharan Atlas, Central Sahara) ."
Lol here just an example the inscription of Azzib n'Ikkis is 2500 years old :
ROFL at you backtracking. First it was 5000 years old and now you climb it down to 2500 years old. You've directed me to a Berber website, so I'll outright reject claims made by Berber Nationalists. You people are completely insane.
Citations from the British Musuem:
quote: There are three main explanations of its origin - the most accepted theory considers that the Libyco-Berber alphabet and principles of writing were borrowed from the Phoenician script, with other symbols added locally.
(The British Musuem -- Written in stone: the Libyco-Berber scripts)
quote: Chronology represents another challenge: although the first dated inscription on a stela is from 138 BC, some pottery sherds with Libyco-Berber symbols could date from the 3rd century BC. For some researchers the oldest date (as old as the 7th century BC) is believed to correspond to an engraving located in the Moroccan High Atlas, although that theory is still under discussion.
Berber site ? Lmao these are the people who are in charge of this academic encyclopedia : Fondateur de la publication Gabriel CAMPS (†)
Directeur de la publication Salem CHAKER
Conseil Scientifique – Comité de Rédaction
D. Abrous (Univ. Bejaia) : anthropologie socioculturelle A. Bounfour (Inalco) : littérature H. Camps-Fabrer (Cnrs, Aix) : préhistoire et technologie H. Claudot-Hawad (Cnrs, Aix) : ethnologie – anthropologie (Touaregs) J. Desanges (Ephe) : histoire ancienne ; géographie historique S. Hachi (Cnrpah, Alger) : préhistoire C. Lacoste-Dujardin (Cnrs, Paris) : ethnologie (Kabylie) J.-P. Laporte (Paris) : histoire ancienne A. Mettouchi (Ephe, Paris) : linguistique K. Naït-Zerrad (Inalco) : langue et linguistique K.-G. Prasse (Univ. Copenhague) : linguistique C. Roubet (Iph, Paris) : préhistoire L. Serra (Univ. "L’Orientale", Naples) : linguistique P. Trousset (CCJ, Univ. Aix-Marseille) : histoire ancienne
All are known professors/scholars in France Your opinion has no value in comparison.
And your phoenician argument is outdated even the article I sent you debunked it this is why :
" Libyan / Phoenician resemblances are very minor (6 to 7 characters on 24 or 25 letters); the general appearance as well as the predominant orientation (from bottom to top) of the two alphabets are very different. "
" The oldest documents come from regions far from the Punic poles of influence: Moroccan High Atlas, Saharan regions (Algerian Saharan Atlas, Central Sahara) ."
"The concentration of Libyan testimonies in areas of strong Punic settlement (and of strong urbanization) can be explained by an influence on the use of writing - i. e. development of the practice of the epitaph in contact with the Phoenician-Punics - rather than by a Punic origin of the writing itself. The general forms of Libyan writing (geometrics) are perfectly in line with the geometric figures and symbols of proto-historical parietal art (paintings and engravings) in North Africa and the geometric decor of rural Berber art ."
" The Berber lexical root for "writing / writing" R (w) is Berber and pan-Berber and certainly results from a semantic evolution from an older signified, prior to writing ("engraving", "marking" , "Incise") ."
" Finally, and above all, there is no intermediate form between the Phoenician-Punic and the Libyan: the two alphabets coexist from the start, totally differentiated, with a solution of absolute continuity between the Semitic alphabet and the Berber alphabet . A direct borrowing from the Phoenician or the Punic would imply stages, even brief, adaptive intermediaries, between the two scriptures
Consequently, it is very difficult to explain the appearance of Libyan writing by the direct borrowing of a Semitic alphabet: too much objective data tends to show that the emergence of this writing refers to a socio-cultural dynamic largely internal to the Berber company. It seems that this nuanced approach - an endogenous emergence, in contact with a civilization carrying writing - is now accepted by the majority of specialists ."
so as I said your old theory is totally debunked.
Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
Nassbean
You proved nothing. 138 BC is the accepted period for the Libyco-Berber script because it's the only precisely dated inscription, and I've proven that the bulk of researchers understand that Libyco-Berber (writing) is just a derivative of Punic.
But since you agree with your source as much as you do, then you certainly agree with this:
quote: The origin of Berber writing remains obscure and controversial. The hypothesis of a spontaneous local genesis, without any external influence , must certainly be rejected because there is not in the Maghreb a tradition of pre-alphabetic writing (syllabic or ideographic) which would allow to retain the idea of a completely indigenous formation: the alphabet cannot be born suddenly without a long prior process of improvement from other types of writing.
It's curious that you cut out that part. The part that calls for the rejection of a local genesis, and clearly points out that prior writing systems were central to the formation of Libyco-Berber. Sneaky, sneaky. Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
As long as ppl eat we'll have this shiss again and again and
It ties us up running around in circles repeating ourselves.
Thing is, if we ignore it surfers and lurkers will think it's correct.
Now that ES Egyptology has moderators and an admin with real power the question is why is this still going on?
Why is Egyptology forum still suffering the absentee landlord effect when M&A can upkeep the property instead of letting it go slum.
Sure there's a way to investgate pro and con sides of issues raised but not the way this thread has gone.
We can learn about coastal N Afr from 360° w/o all the negativity can't we?
Bottomline Nobody w/t mojo & say so cares about the quality of Egyptology forum The only thing that counts is post counts as evidenced by SpamBot domination of the site via the fake Classified forum.
Me? I'm a bad guy to say that. I'll draw heat from Mgmt just for questioning their lack of direction Nass will go on unreigned in the way it addresses ppl and makes assumptions about them, and ignores what they contribute.
Nassbean has found a platform on ES to spread racist anti-black Amazigh activist propaganda.
How was it enabled to do that?
Guess I'm the odd man out for even thinking these thoughts.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Nassbean
You proved nothing. 138 BC is the accepted period for the Libyco-Berber script because it's the only precisely dated inscription, and I've proven that the bulk of researchers understand that Libyco-Berber (writing) is just a derivative of Punic.
But since you agree with your source as much as you do, then you certainly agree with this:
quote: The origin of Berber writing remains obscure and controversial. The hypothesis of a spontaneous local genesis, without any external influence , must certainly be rejected because there is not in the Maghreb a tradition of pre-alphabetic writing (syllabic or ideographic) which would allow to retain the idea of a completely indigenous formation: the alphabet cannot be born suddenly without a long prior process of improvement from other types of writing.
It's curious that you cut out that part. The part that calls for the rejection of a local genesis, and clearly points out that prior writing systems were central to the formation of Libyco-Berber. Sneaky, sneaky.
Lol you don't even understand french ...the arguments I posted respond to the quote you just posted but I do not deny a punic influence but saying that it derives entirely from the punic alphabet is far-fetched
Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Nassbean
You proved nothing. 138 BC is the accepted period for the Libyco-Berber script because it's the only precisely dated inscription, and I've proven that the bulk of researchers understand that Libyco-Berber (writing) is just a derivative of Punic.
But since you agree with your source as much as you do, then you certainly agree with this:
quote: The origin of Berber writing remains obscure and controversial. The hypothesis of a spontaneous local genesis, without any external influence , must certainly be rejected because there is not in the Maghreb a tradition of pre-alphabetic writing (syllabic or ideographic) which would allow to retain the idea of a completely indigenous formation: the alphabet cannot be born suddenly without a long prior process of improvement from other types of writing.
It's curious that you cut out that part. The part that calls for the rejection of a local genesis, and clearly points out that prior writing systems were central to the formation of Libyco-Berber. Sneaky, sneaky.
Lol you don't even understand french ...the arguments I posted respond to the quote you just posted but I do not deny a punic influence but saying that it derives entirely from the punic alphabet is far-fetched
I don't have to understand French. It's clear that Libyco-Berber would not have been possible without Punic.
Also from your source:
quote: In fact, a whole bundle of objective indications points in the direction of an endogenous formation, on the basis of non-alphabetic local materials, under the strong influence of a Semitic alphabet , probably the Phoenician; a creation by imitation in a way, a process of which we know other proven examples in West Africa and South America, in particular, where human groups in contact with other peoples practicing writing have invented, almost from scratch, their own writing ( see Klingenheben; Dalby & Hair 1968; Pichl 1966).
The *imitation* of Phoenician is how the Berbers got writing. Very few civilisations independently created their own writing, so arguing that your ancestors were more exceptional than they actually were is hilarious.
I take it that you're no longer arguing that your people invented their own written language 5, 000 years ago?
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Nassbean
You proved nothing. 138 BC is the accepted period for the Libyco-Berber script because it's the only precisely dated inscription, and I've proven that the bulk of researchers understand that Libyco-Berber (writing) is just a derivative of Punic.
But since you agree with your source as much as you do, then you certainly agree with this:
quote: The origin of Berber writing remains obscure and controversial. The hypothesis of a spontaneous local genesis, without any external influence , must certainly be rejected because there is not in the Maghreb a tradition of pre-alphabetic writing (syllabic or ideographic) which would allow to retain the idea of a completely indigenous formation: the alphabet cannot be born suddenly without a long prior process of improvement from other types of writing.
It's curious that you cut out that part. The part that calls for the rejection of a local genesis, and clearly points out that prior writing systems were central to the formation of Libyco-Berber. Sneaky, sneaky.
Lol you don't even understand french ...the arguments I posted respond to the quote you just posted but I do not deny a punic influence but saying that it derives entirely from the punic alphabet is far-fetched
I don't have to understand French. It's clear that Libyco-Berber would not have been possible without Punic.
Also from your source:
quote: In fact, a whole bundle of objective indications points in the direction of an endogenous formation, on the basis of non-alphabetic local materials, under the strong influence of a Semitic alphabet , probably the Phoenician; a creation by imitation in a way, a process of which we know other proven examples in West Africa and South America, in particular, where human groups in contact with other peoples practicing writing have invented, almost from scratch, their own writing ( see Klingenheben; Dalby & Hair 1968; Pichl 1966).
The *imitation* of Phoenician is how the Berbers got writing. Very few civilisations independently created their own writing, so arguing that your ancestors were more exceptional than they actually were is hilarious.
Again translate the whole chapter not only what you want stop being dishonest ...the quotes I posted answered your ridiculous argument that it came entirely from the punic alphabet ...it's mainly a local creation influenced by punic not the opposite
Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Nassbean
You proved nothing. 138 BC is the accepted period for the Libyco-Berber script because it's the only precisely dated inscription, and I've proven that the bulk of researchers understand that Libyco-Berber (writing) is just a derivative of Punic.
But since you agree with your source as much as you do, then you certainly agree with this:
quote: The origin of Berber writing remains obscure and controversial. The hypothesis of a spontaneous local genesis, without any external influence , must certainly be rejected because there is not in the Maghreb a tradition of pre-alphabetic writing (syllabic or ideographic) which would allow to retain the idea of a completely indigenous formation: the alphabet cannot be born suddenly without a long prior process of improvement from other types of writing.
It's curious that you cut out that part. The part that calls for the rejection of a local genesis, and clearly points out that prior writing systems were central to the formation of Libyco-Berber. Sneaky, sneaky.
Lol you don't even understand french ...the arguments I posted respond to the quote you just posted but I do not deny a punic influence but saying that it derives entirely from the punic alphabet is far-fetched
I don't have to understand French. It's clear that Libyco-Berber would not have been possible without Punic.
Also from your source:
quote: In fact, a whole bundle of objective indications points in the direction of an endogenous formation, on the basis of non-alphabetic local materials, under the strong influence of a Semitic alphabet , probably the Phoenician; a creation by imitation in a way, a process of which we know other proven examples in West Africa and South America, in particular, where human groups in contact with other peoples practicing writing have invented, almost from scratch, their own writing ( see Klingenheben; Dalby & Hair 1968; Pichl 1966).
The *imitation* of Phoenician is how the Berbers got writing. Very few civilisations independently created their own writing, so arguing that your ancestors were more exceptional than they actually were is hilarious.
Again translate the whole chapter not only what you want stop being dishonest ...the quotes I posted answered your ridiculous argument that it came entirely from the punic alphabet ...it's mainly a local creation influenced by punic not the opposite
Yes, it is that strong *influence* that you should have accepted from the word go instead of talking nonsense about your script being 5, 000 years old -- a period preceding foreign conquest of the Maghreb. The idea of writing came from Punic even if you adapted it to your own needs and added your own symbols.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Nassbean
You proved nothing. 138 BC is the accepted period for the Libyco-Berber script because it's the only precisely dated inscription, and I've proven that the bulk of researchers understand that Libyco-Berber (writing) is just a derivative of Punic.
But since you agree with your source as much as you do, then you certainly agree with this:
quote: The origin of Berber writing remains obscure and controversial. The hypothesis of a spontaneous local genesis, without any external influence , must certainly be rejected because there is not in the Maghreb a tradition of pre-alphabetic writing (syllabic or ideographic) which would allow to retain the idea of a completely indigenous formation: the alphabet cannot be born suddenly without a long prior process of improvement from other types of writing.
It's curious that you cut out that part. The part that calls for the rejection of a local genesis, and clearly points out that prior writing systems were central to the formation of Libyco-Berber. Sneaky, sneaky.
Lol you don't even understand french ...the arguments I posted respond to the quote you just posted but I do not deny a punic influence but saying that it derives entirely from the punic alphabet is far-fetched
I don't have to understand French. It's clear that Libyco-Berber would not have been possible without Punic.
Also from your source:
quote: In fact, a whole bundle of objective indications points in the direction of an endogenous formation, on the basis of non-alphabetic local materials, under the strong influence of a Semitic alphabet , probably the Phoenician; a creation by imitation in a way, a process of which we know other proven examples in West Africa and South America, in particular, where human groups in contact with other peoples practicing writing have invented, almost from scratch, their own writing ( see Klingenheben; Dalby & Hair 1968; Pichl 1966).
The *imitation* of Phoenician is how the Berbers got writing. Very few civilisations independently created their own writing, so arguing that your ancestors were more exceptional than they actually were is hilarious.
Again translate the whole chapter not only what you want stop being dishonest ...the quotes I posted answered your ridiculous argument that it came entirely from the punic alphabet ...it's mainly a local creation influenced by punic not the opposite
Yes, it is that strong *influence* that you should have accepted from the word go instead of talking nonsense about your script being 5, 000 years old -- a period preceding foreign conquest of the Maghreb. The idea of writing came from Punic even if you adapted it to your own needs and added your own symbols.
Interpret it as you want we know the truth ...anyway I smell some kind of inferiority complex here are you from sudan ? Or are you again another complexed bantu afro-american
Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Nassbean
You proved nothing. 138 BC is the accepted period for the Libyco-Berber script because it's the only precisely dated inscription, and I've proven that the bulk of researchers understand that Libyco-Berber (writing) is just a derivative of Punic.
But since you agree with your source as much as you do, then you certainly agree with this:
quote: The origin of Berber writing remains obscure and controversial. The hypothesis of a spontaneous local genesis, without any external influence , must certainly be rejected because there is not in the Maghreb a tradition of pre-alphabetic writing (syllabic or ideographic) which would allow to retain the idea of a completely indigenous formation: the alphabet cannot be born suddenly without a long prior process of improvement from other types of writing.
It's curious that you cut out that part. The part that calls for the rejection of a local genesis, and clearly points out that prior writing systems were central to the formation of Libyco-Berber. Sneaky, sneaky.
Lol you don't even understand french ...the arguments I posted respond to the quote you just posted but I do not deny a punic influence but saying that it derives entirely from the punic alphabet is far-fetched
I don't have to understand French. It's clear that Libyco-Berber would not have been possible without Punic.
Also from your source:
quote: In fact, a whole bundle of objective indications points in the direction of an endogenous formation, on the basis of non-alphabetic local materials, under the strong influence of a Semitic alphabet , probably the Phoenician; a creation by imitation in a way, a process of which we know other proven examples in West Africa and South America, in particular, where human groups in contact with other peoples practicing writing have invented, almost from scratch, their own writing ( see Klingenheben; Dalby & Hair 1968; Pichl 1966).
The *imitation* of Phoenician is how the Berbers got writing. Very few civilisations independently created their own writing, so arguing that your ancestors were more exceptional than they actually were is hilarious.
Again translate the whole chapter not only what you want stop being dishonest ...the quotes I posted answered your ridiculous argument that it came entirely from the punic alphabet ...it's mainly a local creation influenced by punic not the opposite
Yes, it is that strong *influence* that you should have accepted from the word go instead of talking nonsense about your script being 5, 000 years old -- a period preceding foreign conquest of the Maghreb. The idea of writing came from Punic even if you adapted it to your own needs and added your own symbols.
Interpret it as you want we know the truth ...anyway I smell some kind of inferiority complex here are you from sudan ? Or are you again another complexed bantu afro-american
I don't need to "interpret" anything. The text is clear that Punic was instrumental in the formation of Libyco-Berber writing.
"Inferiority complex"? I'm from Sudan; we had a kingdom (Ta-Seti) 3500 BC and were in competition with our cousins in Upper Egypt for control of the Nile Valley before the formation of Egypt.The Pharaohs of the 12th Dynasty were proud to have been descended from Ta-Seti, and I am immensely proud of being Sudanese.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Uh oh
The NK/LP old Kush vs Meshwesh thing resurrected
quote: Harkhuf's Third Journey
His majesty now sent me a third time to Yam; I went forth from - - - upon the Wehat (wh'.t) Road, and I found the ruler of Yam [line 11] going to the land of Temeh (tmh) to smite Temeh [line 12] as far as the western corner of heaven. I went forth after him to the land of Temeh, [line 13] and I pacified him, until he praised all the gods for the king's sake. [line 14]
Figures 37 and 19 from Förster2006 Abu Ballas Trail Painted bowl, dated to the First Intermediate Period, from a tomb at the Qubbet el-Hawa near Aswan and a Rock engraving at Abu Ballas showing a ‘Libyan’ (?) hunter with two dogs chasing a gazelle (photos: R. Kuper).
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
Anyway here some moroccans :
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Origins
Tamazight & E-M81 relatively recent origins.
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
As long as ppl eat we'll have this shiss again and again and
It ties us up running around in circles repeating ourselves.
Thing is, if we ignore it surfers and lurkers will think it's correct.
Now that ES Egyptology has moderators and an admin with real power the question is why is this still going on?
Why is Egyptology forum still suffering the absentee landlord effect when M&A can upkeep the property instead of letting it go slum.
Sure there's a way to investgate pro and con sides of issues raised but not the way this thread has gone.
We can learn about coastal N Afr from 360° w/o all the negativity can't we?
Bottomline Nobody w/t mojo & say so cares about the quality of Egyptology forum The only thing that counts is post counts as evidenced by SpamBot domination of the site via the fake Classified forum.
Me? I'm a bad guy to say that. I'll draw heat from Mgmt just for questioning their lack of direction Nass will go on unreigned in the way it addresses ppl and makes assumptions about them, and ignores what they contribute.
Nassbean has found a platform on ES to spread racist anti-black Amazigh activist propaganda.
How was it enabled to do that?
Guess I'm the odd man out for even thinking these thoughts.
But, as predictable for most people, he dismissed them as outdated or debunked, while not addressing anything but one post about the Taforalt remains! Honestly, it’s ridiculous! For the many of people like him simply saying it’s debunked or it’s outdated is just a mechanism used against people with a African point of view who actually brings concrete evidence on the table!
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Thx
I gotcha Baal
I'm just being me.
Too too serious everybody tells me.
Even after Women Music Rum Cigars & Trees Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
I posted scientific evidence from the last 5 years while he contradict them with data from the end of the XIXth century lol He also used a lot of rhetoric but facts are facts he knows damn well that all those "white" berbers are totally indigenous and that scientists didn't find any big non indigenous component in them...chenini berbers, mozabites, soussi, atlasians all are from isolated areas and known for their endogamous societies. All scientists agree on mozabites being very pure and indigenous for example but this hysterical and delusional afro-american still think all ancient north africans looked like him while it's absolutely not true.
I Just made two posts with tons of ancient depictions strangely he avoid them because he knows he has no argument against it.
A little example here the goddess africa/ifri if ancient NAs were black why would they represent one of their main goddess as white and caucasoid looking like modern berbers ?
Why would egyptians depicted them like this ? :
They are even portrayed with the tattoos that our grandparents still have :
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Yup unfortunately...its 2020 and still the same old-same old..lol
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
You guys are arguing with Nassbean over phenotype vs. genotype. Does the guy even know that many white Greeks possess E-M78 paternal lineages that are commonly found among Sudanese men??
Spaniards have the reverse-- European paternal lineages mostly R1b and African (typically Sub-Saharan) maternal lineages mainly L2 yet look totally white!
What does that tell people??
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
Accusations of Afrocentrism are really just their way of avoiding the issue of blacks in North Africa.
-They complain when you explain that blacks are not always genetically related or even native to the same continent (so how the hell acknowledging people are black is "Afrocentric" is beyond me)
-They complain when you acknowledge that non-blacks are Native to north Africa, but that black phenotypes are native too and like non-blacks also built North African civilizations and nation states.
-He complains at the idea blacks were not marginalized throughout North Africa throughout ancient times for being black, but swears the Old World doesn't practice racism.
-Complains when people acknowledge the heritage of Modern North Africans, even if ancient peoples living in North Africa didn't always have the same phenotype.
He is a racist trying to veil his intentions under the protection of his heritage. Even when his connection to the ancients at a genetic/ancestral level is acknowledged he won't stop complaining unless you say people with a black phenotype were subject to race wars and subjugation for being black by all ancient North African civilizations across time. And then swears the Old World doesn't involve itself in ideas of race.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Plus one sided racist fueled img posting neglects AE depicted blk N Afrs. Only coastal N Afr was off-yte/near-yte The lightest Tjemehu were painted creamy colored (peaches and creme / cafe au lait) and I have seen no pink white skinned with blonde hair Tjemehu in any ancient Egyptian art. The lightest their hair ever gets painted is chestnut brown. You Northafrocentrics gotta convince Euros you're all yte due to your inferiority complex (under foreign domination without interupt since the old Roman era). Euros used Tjemehu to inject themselves into AE civ. Quite frankly any pink skinned N Afrs have a yte Euro mommy or gran. Too much history of interaction with Eur to deny it. You feel bad cos the Euros refuse to accept you as real ytes.
From the New Kingdom era
Ancent Libya from AE oases to the Atlantic from Sahara mountains to the Mediterranean was diverse and remains so to this day. Pink skins are relegated to the extreme coast.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Sudanese people are interesting...They're majority North African and East African, yet are lighter than most black berbers who are supposed to be majority Heratin...
According to the video she's 88.1% SSA specifically East African(Thats more SSA than me)
compared to this Amizagh Girl from Tunis....
If black Berbers like that girl have SSA is minute to say the least. Trying to equate Genotype/Phenotype isnt scientific
If the two girls complexion was switched, the Berber would be touted as an example of a pristine pure Berber.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: According to the video she's 88.1% SSA specifically East African(Thats more SSA than me)
compared to this Amizagh Girl from Tunis....
If black Berbers like that girl have SSA is minute to say the least. Trying to equate Genotype/Phenotype isnt scientific
If the two girls complexion was switched, the Berber would be touted as an example of a pristine pure Berber.
I don't understand your point ?? haratin have west african ancestry with a minor berber component they went through a processus of arabization or berberization again read : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haratin
While east africans are a different and old population with a different eurasian component you can't compare the two. And btw both look off for north africa
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
Ok if you still don't believe me no problem I found haratin results from Tunisia :
He looks like this :
In comparison this is what I got with Myheritage :
and this is what other white berbers get :
So as I told you white berbers are way more indigenous. Black berbers are the product of the recent slave trade.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Yes, I remember asking the Forum years ago about this, Ive never seen the Tamahu depicted like Europeans like in that colorized cartoon rendering...They're always pale-Yellow to reddish-pink
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Nassbean:
Egyptians never depited them like that. They did it like this
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
My point is that just because someone is SSA doesnt mean their skin is dark, the girl in the video has very little Eurasian ancestry if any, only 1.5% is "Broadly" Middle Eastern and North African meaning she probably has distant possible ancestry from the Middle East, she's majority African, East and North, yet skin and features wise she's lighter than most Black Berbers who are supposed to be Haratin
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
While east africans are a different and old population with a different eurasian component you can't compare the two. And btw both look off for north africa
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: My point is that just because someone is SSA doesnt mean their skin is dark, the girl in the video has very little Eurasian ancestry if any, only 1.5% is "Broadly" Middle Eastern and North African meaning she probably has distant possible ancestry from the Middle East, she's majority African, East and North, yet skin and features wise she's lighter than most Black Berbers who are supposed to be Haratin
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
While east africans are a different and old population with a different eurasian component you can't compare the two. And btw both look off for north africa
that's because you didn't read much about east africa's ancestry ...the east african component on her genetic test is almost half eurasian that's why most horners are craniometrically caucasoids.
Nassa I had to edit this, I was looking at the wrong person
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: My point is that just because someone is SSA doesnt mean their skin is dark, the girl in the video has very little Eurasian ancestry if any, only 1.5% is "Broadly" Middle Eastern and North African meaning she probably has distant possible ancestry from the Middle East, she's majority African, East and North, yet skin and features wise she's lighter than most Black Berbers who are supposed to be Haratin
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
While east africans are a different and old population with a different eurasian component you can't compare the two. And btw both look off for north africa
Also just look at the haratin's results I posted don't avoid it
Nassa that man has clear stereotypical features of SSA/Heratin...
The girl does'nt
More
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: My point is that just because someone is SSA doesnt mean their skin is dark, the girl in the video has very little Eurasian ancestry if any, only 1.5% is "Broadly" Middle Eastern and North African meaning she probably has distant possible ancestry from the Middle East, she's majority African, East and North, yet skin and features wise she's lighter than most Black Berbers who are supposed to be Haratin
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
While east africans are a different and old population with a different eurasian component you can't compare the two. And btw both look off for north africa
Also just look at the haratin's results I posted don't avoid it
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
edit
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Sigh, Nassa that man is 2% SSA...that 1 % higher than some of the white berbers you are posting...
2% is not recent, its at least 4-5(If I remember correctly) generations back, 2% is distant.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Ok if you still don't believe me no problem I found haratin results from Tunisia :
He looks like this :
So as I told you white berbers are way more indigenous. Black berbers are the product of the recent slave trade.
??? wtf are you talking about the haratin I Posted is almost half black
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted October 10, 2011 by alTakruri:
Juba II madness
_______ Juba II Numidian African ____________ Typical Euro-Roman
The Numidian differs from the European in all the stereotypical hair and facial features. The hair is thicker and "wilder." The eye is larger and rounder. The cheek bones are higher and more protruding. The nose is flatter and broader with nostrils tending to round/oval rather than oblong/slit shape. The lips are thicker and more everted. King Juba II's antecedents thus seem the type of black autochthonous to littoral North Africa.
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
A black person either has a black phenotype or doesn't, Nassbean. Blacks with so-called "Caucasoid" features are still labeled black socially. And that's important because race is a social construct, not a rational and genetically sound construct. When you say "half black" you're likely trying to drag genotypes back into the discussion to bring psuedoscience back into the conversation.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Nassa I had to edit my post I was looking at the wrong DNA profile..
BTW that man has similar facial features but is darker than my dad and my dad is majority SSA(West African btw)
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Sigh, Nassa that man is 2% SSA...that 1 % higher than some of the white berbers you are posting...
2% is not recent, its at least 4-5(If I remember correctly) generations back, 2% is distant.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Ok if you still don't believe me no problem I found haratin results from Tunisia :
He looks like this :
So as I told you white berbers are way more indigenous. Black berbers are the product of the recent slave trade.
??? wtf are you talking about the haratin I Posted is almost half black
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted October 10, 2011 by alTakruri:
Juba II madness
_______ Juba II Numidian African ____________ Typical Euro-Roman
The Numidian differs from the European in all the stereotypical hair and facial features. The hair is thicker and "wilder." The eye is larger and rounder. The cheek bones are higher and more protruding. The nose is flatter and broader with nostrils tending to round/oval rather than oblong/slit shape. The lips are thicker and more everted. King Juba II's antecedents thus seem the type of black autochthonous to littoral North Africa.
Lol wtf are you talking about ? Here Juba 2 :
the first time I saw his bust I immediately knew he was berber he looks really moroccan to me
Anyway this was his father Juba 1 :
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] Nassa I had to edit my post I was looking at the wrong DNA profile..
BTW that man has similar facial features but is darker than my dad and my dad is majority SSA(West African btw)
Yes it's normal both have a big west african component
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Get your propaganda straight
Helene Hagan high priestess of Amazighity says Haratin are Amazigh not Gnawa.
Where did all the Atlas, pre-Sahara, and Sahara blx of the Greco-Latin authors go?
quote:Blacks darker than the Afers abounded in N Afr south of the Tunisian/Algerian chotts.
Blacks darker than the Afers abounded in N Afr south of the Tunisian/Algerian chotts, i.e.; 34 degrees north.
Black does not mean negro. Black does not mean sub-Saharan.
African history don't begin nor end with genetics,
quote:Morocco's Haratin in the zouth will say they're autochthone, that they aren't recently arrived "black West Africans" and the "whites" they welcomed as new neighbors took over.
North Africa had its own local pops who, wherever their sources were, these local pre-Saharans and North Saharans [didn't look like and] were neither our • Savannah West Africans • Gulf of Guinea West Africans • South Central Africans • Lower, Middle, or Upper clear to Great Lakes/ Mountains of the Moon (Ruzenwori) Nile Africans • Mediterranean coast Africans.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ase: race is a social construct, not a rational and genetically sound construct.
quote:Originally posted by Ase: When you say "half black" you're likely trying to drag genotypes back into the discussion to bring pseudoscience back into the conversation.
genotypes are a rational and genetically sound analysis so why would bringing up genotypes be pseudoscience?
quote:Originally posted by Ase: . Blacks with so-called "Caucasoid" features are still labeled black socially.
so such a construct would be pseudoscience as compared to genetics, correct?
quote:Originally posted by Ase: A black person either has a black phenotype or doesn't
"black" is the social construct, correct?
and "white" and "yellow" etc
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ase: A black person either has a black phenotype or doesn't, Nassbean. Blacks with so-called "Caucasoid" features are still labeled black socially. And that's important because race is a social construct, not a rational and genetically sound construct. When you say "half black" you're likely trying to drag genotypes back into the discussion to bring psuedoscience back into the conversation.
You see ? That's exactly what I meant by "american identity concepts" no madam race is not a social construct in the old world someone like will smith or Barack obama won't be seen as "black" but as mixed because no one in SSA have their features. So stop bringing your american labels horners are different from west africans the same way a negrito from the andaman islands has nothing to do with you.
As a good friend told me : "They claim all of the various cultures of MENA (the middle east & north Africa), Babylon, moors, Phoenicians, Egyptians, etc... Funny how they dont care for zulu bantu or whatever else in sub saharan africa. All of this stems from the African American inferiority complex. Reality is there grandparents were slaves on plantations, so its very exciting for them to claim that they were actually royal kings and queens with awesome achievements. "
I couldn't have said it better. Africans who live with me in europe are not obsessed like you all on this site they respect us and we respect them and they are proud people attached to their heritage and culture.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted October 10, 2011 by alTakruri:
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
You haven’t contradicted anything I posted! All you did was repost the same crap that was already addressed, multiple times! But like always with you people you ignored! I posted a dozen times that the Eurasians that migrated back to Africa 40,000 years ago did not have a predominant affect on North Africans because they were eventually absorbed by the prehistoric Africans that was already present in North Africa and the Afrasian speakers of Eastern Africa!
“Haplogroup E1b1b (formerly known as E3b) represents the last major direct exodus from Africa into Europe believed to have appeared first in the Horn of Africa about 26,000 years ago and scattered to North Africa and the Near East during the late Paleolithic and Mesolithic periods. E1b1b lineages are closely linked to the diffusion of Afro-asiatic languages.”
“The highest genetic diversity of haplogroup E1b1b is noted in Northeast Africa region in Ethiopia and Somalia, which also have the monopoly of older and rarer sub-clades like M281, V6 or V92.”
Not only that, I also stated that these same Eurasians wouldn’t have looked like modern contemporary Middle Easterners (Eurasians) in the first place, but the Africans they intermixed with!
”The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants, although the prehistoric/modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa.”
Source: A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal Diversity in Africa
“early West Asians resemble Africans.“
Source: (Hanihara T. Comparison of craniofacial features of major human groups. Am J Phys Anthropol. 1996 Mar;99(3):389-412.)
Prehistoric Eurasian
Natufian reconstruction
Egyptian depictions Eurasians of Antiquity
A stelle of a Canaanite mercenary drinking beer, while his son serves him and his wife looks on
Depiction of bound Libyan, Nubian, and Asiatic captives on King Tutankhamen’s footstool
A depiction of bound captive from Aegean isles or near the Eastern Mediterranean, from the same site
A depiction of a bound captive Peityu-shu, from Desert of the East, from the tomb of Senaa
You keep on spamming the same exact nonsensical bullshit we have already addressed, but you keep dismissing it because you are a sick deluded nationalistic Farq with a identity crisis! Your Geneticists that you keep praising as revealers of the truth don’t take into account what makes a North African a North African! For example, take a look at this image showing genetic results of the Egyptian population.
Note that you see the regional affiliations of the Egyptian population, with North African as a genetic category. The DNA of modern Egyptians is shown to be approximately 68% North African, 17% Arabian, 4% Jewish Diaspora (whatever that is), 3% Asia Minor, 3% Southern Europe, and 3% Eastern African, ironic. Now, you would think that these genetic results would show the Egyptian people’s regional affiliations and you wouldn’t be necessarily wrong. Egyptians are North Africans, but this is misleading as it doesn’t show what makes North Africans North African. It’s when you break down this category that you see what’s makes up the Egyptian population as shown here in the updated data of the Egyptian population!
Now, the results has changed. Replacing the “North African category and showing the results of Middle Easterner, as well as Sub Saharan African affiliations in modern Egyptians as much higher! The results shows that the Egyptians are approximately 65%, 18% Middle Easterner, and 14% Sub Saharan African. Although, “Mediterranean” is also difficult to grasp on, as much “North African”. But assuming that they must be focusing on the geographical region of Southern Europe (most of the Mediterranean), let’s just say this is an accurate prediction of contemporary Egyptians. Also, before you say something stupid, understand this! What this means is, the modern Egyptians as a group are not closely affiliated to their ancient counterparts (indigenous Africans) of 5,000 years ago. As the genetics prove, they are mostly the descendants of foreigners who emigrated to the country over thousands of years. It has nothing to do with their continuity with their ancestors, but a discontinuity with them! Your spams of Coastal North Africans and their DNA results as predominantly North African is all but useless, as some Geneticists don’t consider the North African population as something to be broken down. In part this has to do with the heterogeneous nature of North Africans. Thus, Geneticists are forced to consider the makeup of the North African population as you guess it, North African! The same thing can apply to any significant heterogeneous population, Middle Easterners for example. So far, all of your examples of “pure” and “indigenous” North Africans, only leads to questions about their actual genetic make up, because a category showing your 100% North African is not revealing any, but you already knew this. Also, regarding your insane spams, as I said before in my previous posts from months ago during our interactions, North Africa was heavily influenced by Mediterranean populations like the Greeks and Romans! Showing a image of a Goddess or art from aristocratic buildings with obviously Mediterranean influences (the art style is a great giveaway) is not showing what the common North African looked liked!
“To what extent Carthaginians employed Negro slaves is doubtful. Punic cemeteries have yielded numerous skulls of a negroid character, and there were some very dark-skinned Africans, perhaps negroes, in the Carthaginian army which invaded Sicily early in the fifth century B.C. Frontinus tells us that as prisoners they were paraded naked before the Greeks soldiery in order to bring the Carthaginians into contempt. On the other hand, as the Carthaginians customarily enslaved prisoners of war and the victims of their piracy, two sources of supply which they must have found very fruitful, they were far from being dependent on Africa for slave labour. It is unlikely that they hesitated to enslaved as many Berbers as they required, nor were so brutal a people likely to have drawn the line at doing the same to their own peasantry. The evidence of negro blood, is, however, significant and it seems probable that they imported slaves from the Fezzan. It was a likely source, for the Garamantes cannot have hunted the Troglodyte Ethiopians except to enslave them. The slave trade with the Fezzan may have been important to the Carthaginians, but there are no grounds for assuming that it was.”
Source: The golden trade of the Moors: West African kingdoms in the fourteenth century, By E. W. Bovill, Robin Hallet, pp. 21-22
“In the Punic burial grounds, negroid remains were not rare and there were black auxiliaries in the Carthaginian army who were certainly not Nilotics. Furthermore, if we are to believe Diodorus(XX, 57.5), a lieutenant of Agathocles in northern Tunisia at the close of the fourth century before our era overcame a people who skin was similar to the Ethiopian. There is much evidence of the presence of 'Ethiopians' on the southern borders of Africa Minor. Throughout the classical period, mention is also made of peoples belonging to intermediate races, the Melano-Getules, or Leuco-Ethiopians in particular in Ptolemy.”
Source: General History of Africa: Ancient civilizations of Africa By G. Mokhtar, Unesco. International Scientific Committee for the Drafting of a General History of Africa, p. 427
I won’t even addressed your other spams, like your Temehu Libyans, that was explained to you already!
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Yes I thought the Bio-Diversity talking point was that the Haratine were Natives of North Africa who were pushed south and marginalized as the Eurasians moved in...
Now they're recently arrived slaves to a North Africa completly void of anyone darker than an Octaroon...
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Get your propaganda straight
Helene Hagan high priestess of Amazighity says Haratin are Amazigh not Gnawa.
Where did all the Atlas, pre-Sahara, and Sahara blx of the Greco-Latin authors go?
quote:Blacks darker than the Afers abounded in N Afr south of the Tunisian/Algerian chotts.
Blacks darker than the Afers abounded in N Afr south of the Tunisian/Algerian chotts, i.e.; 34 degrees north.
Black does not mean negro. Black does not mean sub-Saharan.
African history don't begin nor end with genetics,
quote:Morocco's Haratin in the zouth will say they're autochthone, that they aren't recently arrived "black West Africans" and the "whites" they welcomed as new neighbors took over.
North Africa had its own local pops who, wherever their sources were, these local pre-Saharans and North Saharans [didn't look like and] were neither our • Savannah West Africans • Gulf of Guinea West Africans • South Central Africans • Lower, Middle, or Upper clear to Great Lakes/ Mountains of the Moon (Ruzenwori) Nile Africans • Mediterranean coast Africans.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Forget discussion, this isn't even a clean honest debate.
Nassbean lies saying this isn't Juba II, that the European produced museum video description is clueless From iirc Carthage [videorecording] : a journey back in time / Cromwell Productions, Ltd. ; producer, Lara Lowe ; directed by Bob Carruthers. The given juxtaposed qualities are what the ytes declare to distance themselves from North Africans. North Africans aren't recognized or treated as yte ppl in Europe. Only yte in textbooks not in day to day social life. Whether tawny or blacke or even whitt, Moors and moriscos (here meaning Maghrebis) are not yte by yte ppls standards. Hell there are plenty of Italians who don't consider themselves "whitebread" (white bred). They like coloring ppl by using foods, like "eggplant" for even the lightest of African black ppl.
That's why we despite the big wheel spinning waste of time involved in restoring lost mages and forgotten threads.
Not to try to sway irrational Northafrocentrics but to alert surfers/lurkers to omissions and denials of historic facts
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted October 10, 2011 by alTakruri:
Juba II madness
_______ Juba II Numidian African ____________ Typical Euro-Roman
The Numidian differs from the European in all the stereotypical hair and facial features. The hair is thicker and "wilder." The eye is larger and rounder. The cheek bones are higher and more protruding. The nose is flatter and broader with nostrils tending to round/oval rather than oblong/slit shape. The lips are thicker and more everted. King Juba II's antecedents thus seem the type of black autochthonous to littoral North Africa.
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
quote:Yes I thought the Bio-Diversity talking point was that the Haratine were Natives of North Africa who were pushed south and marginalized as the Eurasians moved in...
Now they're recently arrived slaves to a North Africa completly void of anyone darker than an Octaroon...
I thought that was always the HBD claim.
17th painting depicting the ruler of the Hafsid dynasty King Mulay Ahmad of Tunisia 🇹🇳
17th century caricature of Moulay al-Rashid of Morocco 🇲🇦
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith:
quote:Yes I thought the Bio-Diversity talking point was that the Haratine were Natives of North Africa who were pushed south and marginalized as the Eurasians moved in...
Now they're recently arrived slaves to a North Africa completly void of anyone darker than an Octaroon...
I thought that was always the HBD claim.
17th painting depicting the ruler of the Hafsid dynasty King Mulay Ahmad of Tunisia 🇹🇳
17th century caricature of Moulay al-Rashid of Morocco 🇲🇦
Moulay ahmed and moulay ismail were indeed biracial because it was common for berber men to mate with their black slaves their offsprings weren't seen as slave/foreigners because in our culture we follow the line of the father (just check the biography of moulay ismail his mother was a black slave).
That's why in the trans-saharan slave trade women were prefered instead of black men as you can read it here : https://imgur.com/Y0BbTo0
and that's why there is 21% of Moroccans belong to Sub Saharan maternal Haplogroups, in contrast 6% SSA paternal Haplogroups
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
quote:that's because you didn't read much about east africa's ancestry ...the east african component on her genetic test is almost half eurasian that's why most horners are craniometrically caucasoids.
“Mr. Baldwin draws a marked distinction between the modern Mahomedan Semitic population of Arabia and their great Cushite, Hamite or Ethiopian predecessors. The former, he says, “are comparatively modern in Arabia,” they have “appropriated the reputation of the old race,” and have unduly occupied the chief attention of modern scholars.”
Source: Traditions Superstitions and Folklore, Charles Hardwick , Manchester A. Ireland and Company
“The south Arabs represent a residue of Hamitic populations which at one time occupied the whole of Arabia.”
Source: Pre-historic nations or inquiries Concerning Some of the Great peoples and Civilizations of Antiquity
“Among these Negroid features which may be counted normal in Arabs are the full, rather everted lips, shortness and width of nose, certain blanks in the bearded areas of the face between the lower lip and chin and on the cheeks; large, luscious, gazelle-like eyes, a dark brown complexion, and a tendency for the hair to grow in ringlets. Often the features of the more Negroid Arabs are derivatives of Dravidian India rather than inheritances of Hamitic Africa. Although the Arab of today is sharply differentiated from the Negro of Africa, yet there must have been a time when both were represented by a single ancestral stock; in no other way can the prevalence of certain Negroid features be accounted for in the natives of Arabia.”
Source: Memoirs Arabs of Central Iraq; Their History, Ethnology and Physical C haracters, Anthropology Memoirs Volume 4
“We thus find it plausible that the people living in the Middle East today are not representative of the people who were living the Middle East 3,000 years ago. Indeed, even in historical times, there have been extensive population movements from and to the Middle East.”
Almost the best modern examples of what these Prehistoric Eurasians looked like.
These people have remained untouched on their island in the middle of the Red Sea, thus the reason why they are both phenotypically and genetically distinct.
Ismail loved him some African blk ppl He rounded every one n his dominion They became civil servants and corp of engineers par exellance throughout his realm Lighter ppl in Maroc knew to stay outta their way Treatment of Euro ytes in general could be so bad I won't relate it After Ismail passed away the "Mutes" determined who would be sultan.
ES has camel loads of info on the Bukhari
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith:
quote:Yes I thought the Bio-Diversity talking point was that the Haratine were Natives of North Africa who were pushed south and marginalized as the Eurasians moved in...
Now they're recently arrived slaves to a North Africa completly void of anyone darker than an Octaroon...
I thought that was always the HBD claim.
17th painting depicting the ruler of the Hafsid dynasty King Mulay Ahmad of Tunisia 🇹🇳
17th century caricature of Moulay al-Rashid of Morocco 🇲🇦
Moulay ahmed and moulay ismail were indeed biracial because it was common for berber men to mate with their black slaves their offsprings weren't seen as slave/foreigners because in our culture we follow the line of the father (just check the biography of moulay ismail his mother was a black slave).
That's why in the trans-saharan slave trade women were prefered instead of black men as you can read it here : https://imgur.com/Y0BbTo0
and that's why there is 21% of Moroccans belong to Sub Saharan maternal Haplogroups, in contrast 6% SSA paternal Haplogroups
I should of known you were going to pull some shit like this. “White” to the Medieval inhabitants of the Maghreb did not mean a White hue!
“In any case, if he was “white” in the African sense that should not be confused with the modern Western one, and to say that only one scholar was black in reality has little resonance with comtemporary Western considerations of what a “black” complexion is.“
Berbers ("tawnie-moors")at a meet-up in southern Morocco in the Wadi Nun (Oued-Noun) region
Ironically these were Whites too!
Woodabe Fulani men looking not much different than the Tuareg in complexion and facial characteristics (derived from their ancient African ancestors) stand in front of other black Africans. Such people were designated "red" and "white" men in Africa, before such terms came to be confused with the usages of the same terms by European colonialists for themselves.
Also, quit avoiding the obvious! The Eurasian Slave Trade and the Trans Saharan Slave Trade both made their marked on North Africa, especially the Eurasian Slave Trade!
The translator of Leo Africanus Robert Brown mentioned - "The many European races, including the Vandals under Genseric, and the endless European slaves who, turning renegade, became absorbed into the population must have left their mark over the all the Barbary states” (Brown, 1896, p. 203).
Jacques Heers argues in "Les barbaresques" (2001, pg 227) at the time of Turkish rule in Algeria, 50% of the population in the capital was composed of European-Christian slaves (even Italian slaves by the seventeenth century). Saqalibas from the Balkans were also well represented. Besides, Arab excursions displaced many of the ancestral populations of the Maghreb between the 12th-15th centuries.
According to Robert Davis Tripoli, was “occasionally reportedly crowded with large numbers of Greek slaves." (Davis, 2003, Christtian Slaves Muslim Masters, White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800.p. 112)
"Based on Y chromosome and mtDNA studies, Berbers seem to have been issued from admixture of North African men and Iberian women, with a variable sub-Saharian female contribution (Cherni et al. 2009; Ennafaa et al. 2009; Frigi et al. 2010; Keita et al. 2010). Their characterization through the study of seven Alu polymorphisms, and thereby establishing their position with respect to other North African and European populations, offers new genetic data that contributes towards clarifying how the North Africa was populated within the framework of population movements in the Mediterranean area.”
"Taken together, results on Y chromosome, mtDNA and Alu Insertions in North Africa allow to propose a scenario for this region. The ancient sub-Saharan settlement would have been followed by admixture with Iberian populations. But, as the North African Y chromosome remained dominant in the region, we could argue that this admixture have been realized in one direction: North African men and Eurasian women, explaining the gene flow from Europe and high frequency of European types of mtDNA in North Africa as compared with Y chromosome. This situation would not be the result of drift toward Eurasian mtDNA. Our results on Alu insertions interestingly confirm that this gene flow happened several times probably always on the same direction. These matrimonial exchanges between North Africa and Europe should be considered in a context of patriarchal societies with men attached to territory and women from different regions including Europe. Hence, genetic diversity on one hand and relationship with Europe should have been due to women. This result supports the important role that migratory movements have played in North African populations, at least since the Neolithic period and suggests their diverse origins."
"Our analysis of modern North Africans shows that most populations emerged recently from admixture of Africans and Eurasians and therefore are ineffective in resolving questions about ancient human expansions.”
Funny how these Medieval North Africans had no problem with black North Africans, to the point that they were even allowed to assume the throne, as representative of the people they served.
Sad how modern day Berbers try to pretend or present them as foreigners, something their forefathers never did.
Even odd how we have so many "Mixed" heads of state in North Africa, was'nt Al-Mansoor half Fula? But these Biodiversity google scholars are going to pretend that Ancient North Africa was void of such mixing or the possibility of some Ancient North African kings being dark skinned...lol
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: 17th century caricature of Moulay al-Rashid of Morocco 🇲🇦
Moulay ahmed and moulay ismail were indeed biracial because it was common for berber men to mate with their black slaves their offsprings weren't seen as slave/foreigners [/QB][/QUOTE]
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Ismail loved him some African blk ppl He rounded every one n his dominion They became civil servants and corp of engineers par exellance throughout his realm Lighter ppl in Maroc knew to stay outta their way Treatment of Euro ytes in general could be so bad I won't relate it After Ismail passed away the "Mutes" determined who would be sultan.
ES has camel loads of info on the Bukhari
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
yes yes keep being delusional
berbers were well portrayed during medieval times and were similar to modern north africans :
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
By the way, that’s not Moulay Ismail. That his half-brother Al-Rashid.
Al-Rashid
Ismail ibn Sharif
🇲🇦
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Yes your ironic img ppl are openly jibed "the white man of Africa" by other Sene-Congo Africans. Ancestral Hal Pulaaren and Kel Tamasheq/Tagelmust shared residence in Holocene southeast Algeria.
All Atlantic African speakers call Euros "red ears". This term for yte ppl excludes Maurs and coastal North Africans.
From the earliest writers, colour dichotomy was simplified to yte or blk by Beled es Sudane origins though * Blx (sharper facial featues) were noted in the north (Masmuda Imazighen) * Ytes (smoother facial features) were also in the south (Mali's Keita clan)
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith:
“In any case, if he was “white” in the African sense that should not be confused with the modern Western one, and to say that only one scholar was black in reality has little resonance with comtemporary Western considerations of what a “black” complexion is.“
Berbers ("tawnie-moors")at a meet-up in southern Morocco in the Wadi Nun (Oued-Noun) region
Ironically these were Whites too!
Woodabe Fulani men looking not much different than the Tuareg in complexion and facial characteristics (derived from their ancient African ancestors) stand in front of other black Africans. Such people were designated "red" and "white" men in Africa, before such terms came to be confused with the usages of the same terms by European colonialists for themselves.
Also, quit avoiding the obvious! The Eurasian Slave Trade and the Trans Saharan Slave Trade both made their marked on North Africa, especially the Eurasian Slave Trade!
"Based on Y chromosome and mtDNA studies, Berbers seem to have been issued from admixture of North African men and Iberian women, with a variable sub-Saharian female contribution (Cherni et al. 2009; Ennafaa et al. 2009; Frigi et al. 2010; Keita et al. 2010).
"Taken together, results on Y chromosome, mtDNA and Alu Insertions in North Africa allow to propose a scenario for this region.
But, as the North African Y chromosome remained dominant in the region, we could argue that this admixture have been realized in one direction: North African men and Eurasian women, explaining the gene flow from Europe and high frequency of European types of mtDNA in North Africa as compared with Y chromosome.
This situation would not be the result of drift toward Eurasian mtDNA. Our results on Alu insertions interestingly confirm that this gene flow happened several times probably always on the same direction. These matrimonial exchanges between North Africa and Europe should be considered in a context of patriarchal societies with men attached to territory and women from different regions including Europe.
Hence, genetic diversity on one hand and relationship with Europe should have been due to women. This result supports the important role that migratory movements have played in North African populations, at least since the Neolithic period and suggests their diverse origins."
"Our analysis of modern North Africans shows that most populations emerged recently from admixture of Africans and Eurasians and therefore are ineffective in resolving questions about ancient human expansions.”
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Source: The Illustrated London News, 15 June 1901, p 853 The Moorish Embassy {1901} For the first time since the reign of Charles II., a Moorish Embassy has waited upon the British Sovereign. The mission, which has been sent by the Sultan of Morocco to congratulate King Edward on his accession, arrived at Portsmouth on June 6.
17th painting depicting the ruler of the Hafsid dynasty King Mulay Ahmad of Tunisia 🇹🇳
17th century caricature of Moulay al-Rashid of Morocco 🇲🇦
Mulay Slimane or Suleiman (1766 – 28 November 1822) was the Sultan of Morocco from 1792 to 1822. Slimane was one of five sons of Mohammed III who fought a civil war for control of the kingdom. Slimane emerged victorious in 1795, and the country remained largely passive for the subsequent decades of his rule. He was a member of the Alaouite dynasty.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
I wonder which side of the bus Muhammad VI would sit on?
but lets pretend that there were no black Royals and Nobility until the 19th century, before that North Africa was void of people like Muhammad VI... Saying other wise is Afrocentrism and stealing peoples cultures
The Magical Barrier of SSA prevented blacks from living outside this magical land, Eurasians can inhabit the planet from Africa to Solutran North America, but a magical barrier kept them Blubbery lipped pitch black dumb negros in SSA until Massa Kaka-zoid came and started the slave trade...
Presenting counter evidence is saying "We Wuz Kangs" and stealing culture..
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Source: The Illustrated London News, 15 June 1901, p 853 The Moorish Embassy {1901} For the first time since the reign of Charles II., a Moorish Embassy has waited upon the British Sovereign. The mission, which has been sent by the Sultan of Morocco to congratulate King Edward on his accession, arrived at Portsmouth on June 6.
17th century caricature of Moulay al-Rashid of Morocco 🇲🇦
Mulay Slimane or Suleiman (1766 – 28 November 1822) was the Sultan of Morocco from 1792 to 1822. Slimane was one of five sons of Mohammed III who fought a civil war for control of the kingdom. Slimane emerged victorious in 1795, and the country remained largely passive for the subsequent decades of his rule. He was a member of the Alaouite dynasty.
How many times should I post the genetic studies about the trans-saharan slave trade ?? And I will post again the link about the abid al bukhari this army was composed of 150 000 black slaves ...where do you think all those soldiers went after moulay ismail died ?
Also the mother of moulay ismail was a black slave. read ! : "Born in 1645 at Sijilmassa,[alN 1] Moulay Ismail ben Sharif was the son of Sharif ibn Ali, prince of Tafilalt and first sovereign of the Alaouite dynasty. His mother was a black slave .[L 1] " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismail_Ibn_Sharif#cite_note-Audiffret_376-6
These are the berbers who aren't arabized and lived in isolated areas :
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Tamazight speakers also elevated Niger-Chad Africans to rulership. One Kel specifically chose such in generation after generation. Can't remember founding of a city or two was by an Amazigh or a Sudane blk.
I'm still searching Leo for the first denigration of blx in Tamazgha. I think Khaldun has something on that general assumption too.
I know an instance of Masmuda prejudice against I think it was an Nile Valley blk. Remember Butlan distinctly classified Masmuda Imazighen as blx.
Sheee, everbod wanna Fula squeeze! Will check into what just dropped.
Funny how these Medieval North Africans had no problem with black North Africans, to the point that they were even allowed to assume the throne, as representative of the people they served.
Sad how modern day Berbers try to pretend or present them as foreigners, something their forefathers never did.
Even odd how we have so many "Mixed" heads of state in North Africa, was'nt Al-Mansoor half Fula? But these Biodiversity google scholars are going to pretend that Ancient North Africa was void of such mixing or the possibility of some Ancient North African kings being dark skinned...lol
Moulay ahmed and moulay ismail were indeed biracial because it was common for berber men to mate with their black slaves their offsprings weren't seen as slave/foreigners
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Ismail loved him some African blk ppl He rounded every one n his dominion They became civil servants and corp of engineers par exellance throughout his realm Lighter ppl in Maroc knew to stay outta their way Treatment of Euro ytes in general could be so bad I won't relate it After Ismail passed away the "Mutes" determined who would be sultan.
ES has camel loads of info on the Bukhari
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
key word : slave trade
that's what french saw when they visited marrakech :
Jari you're extremely dishonest I posted busts,paintings,mosaics, dna studies of ancient north africans but you still deny it
I even posted the results of a haratin in comparison to modern north africans but you also avoided it
I shouldn't waste my time with dishonest people Now I will only answer people who want an honest debate.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: [QB]
Also the mother of moulay ismail was a black slave. read ! : "Born in 1645 at Sijilmassa,[alN 1] Moulay Ismail ben Sharif was the son of Sharif ibn Ali, prince of Tafilalt and first sovereign of the Alaouite dynasty. His mother was a black slave .[L 1] " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismail_Ibn_Sharif#cite_note-Audiffret_376-6
Yet despite this and even according to Nassabean @ 12:26 today him and others like him were not seen as Foreigners but legitimate Berbers...
Now you and your biodiversity friends with your degree in googling, suddenly want to point out who is and isnt Amazigh, and when me or Al show you otherwise...its "Stealing your culture"...lmao
quote:where do you think all those soldiers went after moulay ismail died ?
Good question, probably the same place all those blacks in Carthagenian graves and armies, the Fezzan blacks and others who lived beyond the magical SSA barrier in ancient times went?
Funny how Baal has posted you that evidence like 4 or 5 times from academic schorlarly sources and you have yet to address it...weird huh
quote:These are the berbers who aren't arabized and lived in isolated areas :
We at least your acknowledging more darker Berbers as pristine...
More Amazigh...same skin and features as Nassa's examples..
Must be Heratin Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
Why do I even bother?
Do you think this portrays a White person?
Also, portraying Moriscos and European settlers is not helping your case. The Guanches for example are already known to have a heterogeneous background.
“New genetic (HLA) and linguistic data shown in the present paper, is supported by diverse early anthropological and “Guanches” mummies characters which confirm existence of at least two “Guanches” types and a correct interpretation of R1b Y chromosome high frequency in Atlantic Europe (Ireland, British Isles, North Spain,Basque Coast and Portugal), and also, is present in Canary Islands (13.3%). Present paper HLA genes partial data and presence of abundant old Iberian language scripts (which show an easy translation proposal by using Basque) in Fuerteventura and also in Lanzarote and El Hierro Islands suggest that a present day dogma of a hypothetically North African single origin should be changed. Both Atlantic/Europeans and North Africans define origin of Canary Islands first inhabitants.”
“Some six decades before Columbus set out for the new world, Pope Eugene IV condemned the enslavement of black natives from the Canary Islands. This 1435 papal command demanded the European slave-masters to release them within 15 days or face the weight of excommunication from the Church.”
“Juan de Bethencourt became the first European to settle in the Canary Islands and made slaves of several natives heralding the beginning of the black slave trade. At this time slavery had been practically eliminated in Europe, thanks to the influence of the Church. The Holy Roman Church later would not only condone and support slavery even of those baptized into the Roman Catholic Church but also would hold their own slaves. Europe, led by Spain, would begin over four centuries of slave trading that included some twenty million Africans alone, of which half died in transit. Jewish children deported from Portugal during the Inquisition settle Sao Tome e Principe, two islands 320 kilometers west of Gabon. It then became a transit point for the slave trade. Pope John Paul II (1978 - ) in 1992 deplored the Roman Catholic Church's condoning of that sad offense to human dignity.”
To summarize the Canary Islands, they were populated by two populations. The first occupants of the Canaries originated from mainland North Africa, while the second wave of migrants came from the Iberian Peninsula. Thus, the reason behind the genetic similarities between the deceased Canary Islanders and modern North Africans. The North African coast would be populated by a similar population that populated the Canaries! But don’t get hopes up this occurred mostly during late antiquity, Medieval period, and even the modern age(preferably the latter). The Iberian migrants of the Canaries wouldn’t even set foot on Islands, until the Maghrebi Settlers and this took place approximately 1,000 B.C.
Here’s an example of the heterogeneity of the Canary Islanders
An engraving of a Cutthroat man and woman from Bioko island (Fernando Po), Canary Islands, drawings by Captain Filmore, illustration by Charles Hamilton Smith from his Natural History of the Human Species, 1848
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Source: The Illustrated London News, 15 June 1901, p 853 The Moorish Embassy {1901} For the first time since the reign of Charles II., a Moorish Embassy has waited upon the British Sovereign. The mission, which has been sent by the Sultan of Morocco to congratulate King Edward on his accession, arrived at Portsmouth on June 6.
17th century caricature of Moulay al-Rashid of Morocco 🇲🇦
Mulay Slimane or Suleiman (1766 – 28 November 1822) was the Sultan of Morocco from 1792 to 1822. Slimane was one of five sons of Mohammed III who fought a civil war for control of the kingdom. Slimane emerged victorious in 1795, and the country remained largely passive for the subsequent decades of his rule. He was a member of the Alaouite dynasty.
How many times should I post the genetic studies about the trans-saharan slave trade ?? And I will post again the link about the abid al bukhari this army was composed of 150 000 black slaves ...where do you think all those soldiers went after moulay ismail died ?
Also the mother of moulay ismail was a black slave. read ! : "Born in 1645 at Sijilmassa,[alN 1] Moulay Ismail ben Sharif was the son of Sharif ibn Ali, prince of Tafilalt and first sovereign of the Alaouite dynasty. His mother was a black slave .[L 1] " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismail_Ibn_Sharif#cite_note-Audiffret_376-6
These are the berbers who aren't arabized and lived in isolated areas :
Oh now, your using biracial Berbers! Smh!
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith: Why do I even bother?
Do you think this portrays a White person?
“Juan de Bethencourt became the first European to settle in the Canary Islands and made slaves of several natives heralding the beginning of the black slave trade. At this time slavery had been practically eliminated in Europe, thanks to the influence of the Church. The Holy Roman Church later would not only condone and support slavery even of those baptized into the Roman Catholic Church but also would hold their own slaves. Europe, led by Spain, would begin over four centuries of slave trading that included some twenty million Africans alone, of which half died in transit. Jewish children deported from Portugal during the Inquisition settle Sao Tome e Principe, two islands 320 kilometers west of Gabon. It then became a transit point for the slave trade. Pope John Paul II (1978 - ) in 1992 deplored the Roman Catholic Church's condoning of that sad offense to human dignity.”
To summarize the Canary Islands, they were populated by two populations. The first occupants of the Canaries originated from mainland North Africa, while the second wave of migrants came from the Iberian Peninsula. Thus, the reason behind the genetic similarities between the deceased Canary Islanders and modern North Africans. The North African coast would be populated by a similar population that populated the Canaries! But don’t get hopes up this occurred mostly during late antiquity, Medieval period, and even the modern age(preferably the latter). The Iberian migrants of the Canaries wouldn’t even set foot on Islands, until the Maghrebi Settlers and this took place approximately 1,000 B.C.
Here’s an example of the heterogeneity of the Canary Islanders
An engraving of a Cutthroat man and woman from Bioko island (Fernando Po), Canary Islands, drawings by Captain Filmore, illustration by Charles Hamilton Smith from his Natural History of the Human Species, 1848
Lmao there is no Bioko island in north africa ...bioko island is in SSA XD
here how guanches were portrayed by iberian invaders :
Here genetic study proving that the indigenous population of the canary islands were similar to modern north africans :
" Genomic Analyses of Pre-European Conquest Human Remains from the Canary Islands Reveal Close Affinity to Modern North Africans"
"A principal component analysis (PCA) of the five samples with the highest autosomal genome coverage, performed using genome-wide autosomal SNPs overlapping with Human Origins (HO) data [19, 20], reveals close affinity to modern Northwest African populations such as Tunisians and Algerians, but with a tendency (especially for individuals from Gran Canaria) to occupy a space outside modern Northwest African variation, closer to Europeans (Figures 2 and S2). However, outgroup f3 statistics [19] suggest that the Guanches share more genetic drift with non-African test populations than with African test populations, including Northwest African populations of Berber origin (Data S1, sheet 2). "
"The Guanches’ Berber-like affinity is further supported by ADMIXTURE [29] analysis (Figures 3 and S3), where Guanches largely behave like modern Berbers across all values of K. At K = 10, a Northwest African-specific ancestry component makes up the greatest amount of autosomal ancestry in the Guanche and Berber populations in the HO dataset, such as the Mozabite and Saharawi. It is also ubiquitous across other Northwest African populations with Berber ancestry, such as Algerians and Tunisians, consistent with the PCA results."
" The results reveal that this individual likely was lactose intolerant and had brown eyes, dark hair, and light or medium skin color . These results are similar for the other individuals where SNP information is available, albeit with lower coverage, suggesting that—at least for this sample of Guanches—the dominating phenotype was lactose intolerant, dark hair, light or medium skin color, and brown eyes (Table S4) ."
Keep denying facts...
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: [QB]
Jari you're extremely dishonest I posted busts,paintings,mosaics, dna studies of ancient north africans but you still deny it
Denying what Nassa? Didnt I already admit and even post a comparison between the White Amazigh you posted and the Temahu on the walls of Km.t? I did that for at least two, and I admitted the women you posted non African ancestors were distant at best.
As a matter of fact, show one post where I denied any of the white Amazigh you posted as legit prestine Berbers....Calm down Mr. Toomy, no one isnt out to get you....there's no Afrocentric Langoliers here..
quote:I even posted the results of a haratin in comparison to modern north africans but you also avoided it
Mr. Toomy, I adressed you, or did you forget? I admitted that man had Africoid features which the Tunisian girl DOES NOT ...Unlike the Heratin she has straight hair, thin nose and thin lips. Also, didnt you say at 12:23 that in the past these Heratin decendants were not seen as foreigners...take your forefathers advice then...
quote:I shouldn't waste my time with dishonest people Now I will only answer people who want an honest debate.
Lol, Nassa honestly Ive been the nicest to you. Ive addressed every post made to me and been respectful to you and the people you are posting.
You're just Mr. Toomy, under pressure from fighting Afrocentrics that you can even think straight..lol
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Careful the original Sicut Dudum says nothing about black slaves
Dum Diversas concerns blacks and slavery
unfortunately sociopathic driven fast and furious directionless posting buries lotsa good stuff in this thread
no one will sift thru pgs of crap to get to the kernals of grain
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
Yeah, I posted research stating Egyptian ancestry that is shared with SSA did not match Muslim trade routes, and yet you (Nassbean) still argued the slave trade accounts for the black phenotype. Assuming slavery to be the only way a black phenotype could be in North Africa when data says otherwise is not racist though . Study of crania has also found Ethiopian-like phenotypes among Ancient Southern Egyptians, but you chalk it up again to the slave trade. You say the Old World doesn't care about race but then try to argue blacks were only a small minority of people that have always been subjugated in North Africa, never in positions of authority or the creators of any civilization. You say this despite evidence of North Africans who built a nation and had a black phenotype. You even invented a fake race war with Nubians and Egyptians that never happened. You've been asked to prove it did and you still have not. Picture spamming North Africans that look like you does not prove black phenotypes aren't native to the region.
Who is being dishonest here? You've lied about the nature of your intentions several times. Someone whose just trying to defend their right to claim heritage and doesn't care about black phenotypes wouldn't behave in such a way.
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: [QB]
Jari you're extremely dishonest I posted busts,paintings,mosaics, dna studies of ancient north africans but you still deny it
Denying what Nassa? Didnt I already admit and even post a comparison between the White Amazigh you posted and the Temahu on the walls of Km.t? I did that for at least two, and I admitted the women you posted non African ancestors were distant at best.
As a matter of fact, show one post where I denied any of the white Amazigh you posted as legit prestine Berbers....Calm down Mr. Toomy, no one isnt out to get you....there's no Afrocentric Langoliers here..
quote:I even posted the results of a haratin in comparison to modern north africans but you also avoided it
Mr. Toomy, I adressed you, or did you forget? I admitted that man had Africoid features which the Tunisian girl DOES NOT ...Unlike the Heratin she has straight hair, thin nose and thin lips. Also, didnt you say at 12:23 that in the past these Heratin decendants were not seen as foreigners...take your forefathers advice then...
quote:I shouldn't waste my time with dishonest people Now I will only answer people who want an honest debate.
Lol, Nassa honestly Ive been the nicest to you. Ive addressed every post made to me and been respectful to you and the people you are posting.
You're just Mr. Toomy, under pressure from fighting Afrocentrics that you can even think straight..lol
You know, sooner or later he'll break down and scream "Negra, Negra!" Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Denying what Nassa? Didnt I already admit and even post a comparison between the White Amazigh you posted and the Temahu on the walls of Km.t? I did that for at least two, and I admitted the women you posted non African ancestors were distant at best.[/QUOTE] Alright then what's your point ?
quote:Mr. Toomy, I adressed you, or did you forget? I admitted that man had Africoid features which the Tunisian girl DOES NOT ...Unlike the Heratin she has straight hair, thin nose and thin lips. Also, didnt you say at 12:23 that in the past these Heratin decendants were not seen as foreigners...take your forefathers advice then...
Yes the tunisian girl does not probably because she has more native/indigenous ancestry than the haratin I posted that's not difficult to understand and no I said that when berber men had children with a black slave their children were seen as berbers not black or slaves. Haratin are not all the product of a berber man and a black women they only mixed between them and sometimes some berber men took some haratin women...so yes some haratin are culturally seen as berber and I have no problem with this (especially that they have some of our dna) but my point was that from a genetic point of view haratin are mainly non-indigenous therefore "less berber" genetically than the white berbers.
quote:Lol, Nassa honestly Ive been the nicest to you. Ive addressed every post made to me and been respectful to you and the people you are posting.
You're just Mr. Toomy, under pressure from fighting Afrocentrics that you can even think straight..lol [/qb]
It's ok as long as you respect I'll respect you
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Description Bound slave girl Date Circa 1900 Source Delcampe, Verdeau, Liveauctioneers, eBay Author Lehnert & Landrock
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: key word : slave trade
that's what french saw when they visited marrakech :
You? Hones? Haaaaahaahaahahahaaaaahaahaahaha
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
These two pictures alone says a lot of words.
Distinguished merchant and his circassian slave
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ase: Yeah, I posted research stating Egyptian ancestry that is shared with SSA did not match Muslim trade routes, and yet you (Nassbean) still argued the slave trade accounts for the black phenotype. Assuming slavery to be the only way a black phenotype could be in North Africa when data says otherwise is not racist though . Study of crania has also found Ethiopian-like phenotypes among Ancient Southern Egyptians, but you chalk it up again to the slave trade. You say the Old World doesn't care about race but then try to argue blacks were only a small minority of people that have always been subjugated in North Africa, never in positions of authority or the creators of any civilization. You say this despite evidence of North Africans who built a nation and had a black phenotype. You even invented a fake race war with Nubians and Egyptians that never happened. You've been asked to prove it did and you still have not. Picture spamming North Africans that look like you does not prove black phenotypes aren't native to the region.
Who is being dishonest here? You've lied about the nature of your intentions several times. Someone whose just trying to defend their right to claim heritage and doesn't care about black phenotypes wouldn't behave in such a way.
You're indeed dishonest Ase it's obvious no matter the evidence I posted you never contradicted them with real data.
Anyway your sources are outdated and still do not contradict mine...all the study we have show that the trans-saharan slave trade impacted north africa but even without genetic knowledge history teaches us that millions of black were brought in North africa since the 7th century AD and in the case of morocco this slave trade is well attested. Slaves were the most needed ressources in north africa after gold and salt and you still try to say that it didn't affected north africa ...yeah sure it's like saying the millions of NEw world slaves didn't affected America lol But even if you still want to deny it there is the abid al bukhari the famous "black guard" an army composed of 150 000 black slaves created by Mulay Ismail (150 000 is more than the number of arabs and europeans who settled in Morocco btw) and these soldiers were not castrated and were married to black women and their children were later again used in the army where do you think these blacks went ??
As for Upper Egyptians again craniometric data gives no information about skin color or overall features I'm sure that even modern upper egyptians would plot close to ethiopians craniometrically.
I never said black weren't able to build a civilization : there were plenty of great civilization in SSA but in North africa they didn't create any civilization because since at least the neolithic this region was mainly inhabited by caucasoid and leucoderm berbers. Blacks appear sporadicaly in our history and most of the time it is history of slavery like for example the garamantes chasing and capturing troglodytes aethiopians or proto-berbers subjugating black people in the saharan oasis.
I have no hate towards black people and I've never implied that they weren't able to build civilization. But I surely hate people who distord history to fit their agendas ...we should seek objectivity not entering in ideological wars. Now I invite you to give your opinion about the ancient depictions I posted but also the comparison I made between the haratin's dna and white berbers and their dna.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith:
No circassian slaves were brought in North africa and slave men were not allowed to marry our women so they didn't mix with us. Also the barbary slave trade only lasted 3 centuries and most slaves were men not women. Moreover most of these slaves were redeemed by christian associations like "l'ordre de la sainte trinité" or "les mercédaires de Notre-Dame de la Merci" while the trans-sahran slave trade lasted 1300 years...
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith:
No circassian slaves were brought in North africa and slave men were not allowed to marry our women so they didn't mix with us. Also the barbary slave trade only lasted 3 centuries and most slaves were men not women. Moreover most of these slaves were redeemed by christian associations like "l'ordre de la sainte trinité" or "les mercédaires de Notre-Dame de la Merci" while the trans-sahran slave trade lasted 1300 years...
Ok, first my post isn't in reference to Eurasian Slavery in North Africa, but for Eurasian Slavery as a whole and I have already given a description of the photo posted. Second, Eurasian Slavery and not the Barbary raids of the 16th and 19th century, started at the same time as African Slavery, and it was more frequent than African Slavery!
Jacques Heers argues in "Les barbaresques" (2001, pg 227) at the time of Turkish rule in Algeria, 50% of the population in the capital was composed of European-Christian slaves (even Italian slaves by the seventeenth century). Saqalibas from the Balkans were also well represented. Besides, Arab excursions displaced many of the ancestral populations of the Maghreb between the 12th-15th centuries.
"Except for the Zanj (Swahili slaves) from lower Iraq, no large body of blacks historically linked to the trans-Saharan slave trade existed anywhere in the Arab world...The high costs of slaves, because of the risks inherent in the desert crossing, which would have not permitted such a massive exodus ... In this connection, it is significant that in the Arabic iconography of the period, the slave merchant was often depicted as a man with a hole in his purse. Until the Crusades the Muslim world drew its slaves from two main sources: Eastern and Central Europe (Slavs) and Turkestan. The Sudan only came third."
How many times do I have to repost this quote! Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith:
No circassian slaves were brought in North africa and slave men were not allowed to marry our women so they didn't mix with us. Also the barbary slave trade only lasted 3 centuries and most slaves were men not women. Moreover most of these slaves were redeemed by christian associations like "l'ordre de la sainte trinité" or "les mercédaires de Notre-Dame de la Merci" while the trans-sahran slave trade lasted 1300 years...
Ok, first my post isn't in reference to Slavery in North Africa, but for Eurasian Slavery as a whole and I have already given a description of the photo posted. Second, Eurasian Slavery and not the Barbary raids of the 16th and 19th century, started at the same time as African Slavery, and it was more frequent than African Slavery!
Jacques Heers argues in "Les barbaresques" (2001, pg 227) at the time of Turkish rule in Algeria, 50% of the population in the capital was composed of European-Christian slaves (even Italian slaves by the seventeenth century). Saqalibas from the Balkans were also well represented. Besides, Arab excursions displaced many of the ancestral populations of the Maghreb between the 12th-15th centuries.
"Except for the Zanj (Swahili slaves) from lower Iraq, no large body of blacks historically linked to the trans-Saharan slave trade existed anywhere in the Arab world...The high costs of slaves, because of the risks inherent in the desert crossing, which would have not permitted such a massive exodus ... In this connection, it is significant that in the Arabic iconography of the period, the slave merchant was often depicted as a man with a hole in his purse. Until the Crusades the Muslim world drew its slaves from two main sources: Eastern and Central Europe (Slavs) and Turkestan. The Sudan only came third."
Unfortunately for you I have the book of Jacque Heers as you can see p227 :
and I didn't find your quote ...the page contradicts you you're simply lying and posting fake quotes. Moreover the Zanj and swahili coast had nothing to do with the maghreb ...our slaves were from west africa not east africa.
Game over.
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith:
No circassian slaves were brought in North africa and slave men were not allowed to marry our women so they didn't mix with us. Also the barbary slave trade only lasted 3 centuries and most slaves were men not women. Moreover most of these slaves were redeemed by christian associations like "l'ordre de la sainte trinité" or "les mercédaires de Notre-Dame de la Merci" while the trans-sahran slave trade lasted 1300 years...
Ok, first my post isn't in reference to Slavery in North Africa, but for Eurasian Slavery as a whole and I have already given a description of the photo posted. Second, Eurasian Slavery and not the Barbary raids of the 16th and 19th century, started at the same time as African Slavery, and it was more frequent than African Slavery!
Jacques Heers argues in "Les barbaresques" (2001, pg 227) at the time of Turkish rule in Algeria, 50% of the population in the capital was composed of European-Christian slaves (even Italian slaves by the seventeenth century). Saqalibas from the Balkans were also well represented. Besides, Arab excursions displaced many of the ancestral populations of the Maghreb between the 12th-15th centuries.
"Except for the Zanj (Swahili slaves) from lower Iraq, no large body of blacks historically linked to the trans-Saharan slave trade existed anywhere in the Arab world...The high costs of slaves, because of the risks inherent in the desert crossing, which would have not permitted such a massive exodus ... In this connection, it is significant that in the Arabic iconography of the period, the slave merchant was often depicted as a man with a hole in his purse. Until the Crusades the Muslim world drew its slaves from two main sources: Eastern and Central Europe (Slavs) and Turkestan. The Sudan only came third."
Unfortunately for you I have the book of Jacque Heers as you can see p227 :
and I didn't find your quote ...the page contradicts you you're simply lying and posting fake quotes. Moreover the Zanj and swahili coast had nothing to do with the maghreb ...our slaves were from west africa not east africa.
Game over.
You illiterate! That was just a summary! Again, how many times do I have repost this quote!
"Except for the Zanj (Swahili slaves) from lower Iraq, no large body of blacks historically linked to the trans-Saharan slave trade existed anywhere in the Arab world"
"Until the Crusades the Muslim world drew its slaves from two main sources: Eastern and Central Europe (Slavs) and Turkestan. The Sudan only came third."
The reason I keep mentioning the Zanj is because they were the most frequent of Africans to be enslaved, right after the Slavs and Turks! BLACK AFRICANS WERE NOT THE MAJORITY OF SLAVES IN THE ISLAMC WORLD! GET THAT INTO YOUR THICK SKULL! Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
Also, regarding your contradiction, it contradicts nothing! Eurasians were frequently enslaved, just like Africans in most periods!
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith:
No circassian slaves were brought in North africa and slave men were not allowed to marry our women so they didn't mix with us. Also the barbary slave trade only lasted 3 centuries and most slaves were men not women. Moreover most of these slaves were redeemed by christian associations like "l'ordre de la sainte trinité" or "les mercédaires de Notre-Dame de la Merci" while the trans-sahran slave trade lasted 1300 years...
Ok, first my post isn't in reference to Slavery in North Africa, but for Eurasian Slavery as a whole and I have already given a description of the photo posted. Second, Eurasian Slavery and not the Barbary raids of the 16th and 19th century, started at the same time as African Slavery, and it was more frequent than African Slavery!
Jacques Heers argues in "Les barbaresques" (2001, pg 227) at the time of Turkish rule in Algeria, 50% of the population in the capital was composed of European-Christian slaves (even Italian slaves by the seventeenth century). Saqalibas from the Balkans were also well represented. Besides, Arab excursions displaced many of the ancestral populations of the Maghreb between the 12th-15th centuries.
"Except for the Zanj (Swahili slaves) from lower Iraq, no large body of blacks historically linked to the trans-Saharan slave trade existed anywhere in the Arab world...The high costs of slaves, because of the risks inherent in the desert crossing, which would have not permitted such a massive exodus ... In this connection, it is significant that in the Arabic iconography of the period, the slave merchant was often depicted as a man with a hole in his purse. Until the Crusades the Muslim world drew its slaves from two main sources: Eastern and Central Europe (Slavs) and Turkestan. The Sudan only came third."
Unfortunately for you I have the book of Jacque Heers as you can see p227 :
and I didn't find your quote ...the page contradicts you you're simply lying and posting fake quotes. Moreover the Zanj and swahili coast had nothing to do with the maghreb ...our slaves were from west africa not east africa.
Game over.
You illiterate! That was just a summary! Again, how many times do I have repost this quote!
"Except for the Zanj (Swahili slaves) from lower Iraq, no large body of blacks historically linked to the trans-Saharan slave trade existed anywhere in the Arab world"
"Until the Crusades the Muslim world drew its slaves from two main sources: Eastern and Central Europe (Slavs) and Turkestan. The Sudan only came third."
The reason I keep mentioning the Zanj is because they were the most frequent of Africans to be enslaved, right after the Slavs and Turks! BLACK AFRICANS WERE NOT THE MAJORITY OF SLAVES IN THE ISLAMC WORLD! GET THAT INTO YOUR THICK SKULL!
Again that's not true Ibn Battuta himself who went to west africa and saw the slaves said that each year 3000-4000 black slaves were sold in NA :
I posted genetic studies who highlighted the recent impact of this slave trade but this delusional afrocentrist is denying that any trans-saharan slave ever existed LOL XD You're going to far go visit Timbuktu yourself to see all the slave records there ...first time I see someone denying this trade lol
Also even your summary is false that's not what jacques wrote you're simply dishonest and a liar I will no more read your answers.
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith:
No circassian slaves were brought in North africa and slave men were not allowed to marry our women so they didn't mix with us. Also the barbary slave trade only lasted 3 centuries and most slaves were men not women. Moreover most of these slaves were redeemed by christian associations like "l'ordre de la sainte trinité" or "les mercédaires de Notre-Dame de la Merci" while the trans-sahran slave trade lasted 1300 years...
Ok, first my post isn't in reference to Slavery in North Africa, but for Eurasian Slavery as a whole and I have already given a description of the photo posted. Second, Eurasian Slavery and not the Barbary raids of the 16th and 19th century, started at the same time as African Slavery, and it was more frequent than African Slavery!
Jacques Heers argues in "Les barbaresques" (2001, pg 227) at the time of Turkish rule in Algeria, 50% of the population in the capital was composed of European-Christian slaves (even Italian slaves by the seventeenth century). Saqalibas from the Balkans were also well represented. Besides, Arab excursions displaced many of the ancestral populations of the Maghreb between the 12th-15th centuries.
"Except for the Zanj (Swahili slaves) from lower Iraq, no large body of blacks historically linked to the trans-Saharan slave trade existed anywhere in the Arab world...The high costs of slaves, because of the risks inherent in the desert crossing, which would have not permitted such a massive exodus ... In this connection, it is significant that in the Arabic iconography of the period, the slave merchant was often depicted as a man with a hole in his purse. Until the Crusades the Muslim world drew its slaves from two main sources: Eastern and Central Europe (Slavs) and Turkestan. The Sudan only came third."
Unfortunately for you I have the book of Jacque Heers as you can see p227 :
and I didn't find your quote ...the page contradicts you you're simply lying and posting fake quotes. Moreover the Zanj and swahili coast had nothing to do with the maghreb ...our slaves were from west africa not east africa.
Game over.
You illiterate! That was just a summary! Again, how many times do I have repost this quote!
"Except for the Zanj (Swahili slaves) from lower Iraq, no large body of blacks historically linked to the trans-Saharan slave trade existed anywhere in the Arab world"
"Until the Crusades the Muslim world drew its slaves from two main sources: Eastern and Central Europe (Slavs) and Turkestan. The Sudan only came third."
The reason I keep mentioning the Zanj is because they were the most frequent of Africans to be enslaved, right after the Slavs and Turks! BLACK AFRICANS WERE NOT THE MAJORITY OF SLAVES IN THE ISLAMC WORLD! GET THAT INTO YOUR THICK SKULL!
Again that's not true Ibn Battuta himself who went to west africa and saw the slaves said that each year 3000-4000 black slaves were sold in NA :
I posted genetic studies highlighted the recent impact of this slave trade but this delusional afrocentrist is denying that any trans-saharan slave ever existed LOL XD You're going to far go visit Timbuktu yourself to see all the slave records there ...first time I see someone denying this trade lol
What do "no large body of blacks historically linked to the trans-Saharan slave trade existed anywhere in the Arab world" mean to you?
Your body count of African Slaves were not significantly affective in making North Africans what they were already, AFRICANS! Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
Are you done?
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith:
You illiterate! That was just a summary! Again, how many times do I have repost this quote!
"Except for the Zanj (Swahili slaves) from lower Iraq, no large body of blacks historically linked to the trans-Saharan slave trade existed anywhere in the Arab world"
"Until the Crusades the Muslim world drew its slaves from two main sources: Eastern and Central Europe (Slavs) and Turkestan. The Sudan only came third."
The reason I keep mentioning the Zanj is because they were the most frequent of Africans to be enslaved, right after the Slavs and Turks! BLACK AFRICANS WERE NOT THE MAJORITY OF SLAVES IN THE ISLAMC WORLD! GET THAT INTO YOUR THICK SKULL! [/qb][/QUOTE]Again that's not true Ibn Battuta himself who went to west africa and saw the slaves said that each year 3000-4000 black slaves were sold in NA :
I posted genetic studies highlighted the recent impact of this slave trade but this delusional afrocentrist is denying that any trans-saharan slave ever existed LOL XD You're going to far go visit Timbuktu yourself to see all the slave records there ...first time I see someone denying this trade lol [/qb][/QUOTE]What do "no large body of blacks historically linked to the trans-Saharan slave trade existed anywhere in the Arab world" mean to you?
Your body count of African Slaves were not significantly affective in making North Africans what they were already, AFRICANS [/QB][/QUOTE]
Do you do it on purpose ?? 5500 slaves each year during 1200 years = 6.600 000 (and that's only for morocco ...ottomans also had their own slave trade) + you add the 150 000 abid al bukhari (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Guard)
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Ish what's that Uthman % in the Algerian genome again? You know, them coast dwelling Kouloughlis, the Anatoli on those mix graphs must coming from them.
What don't you understand by "no large body of blacks historically linked to the trans-Saharan slave trade existed anywhere in the Arab world"
Mentioning someone's interaction with Slaves is not disputing this quote! JUST STOP! Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith: What don't you understand by "no large body of blacks historically linked to the trans-Saharan slave trade existed anywhere in the Arab world"
Mentioning someone's interaction with Slaves is not disputing this quote! JUST STOP!
Your source has no scientific value stop your comedy I posted enough genetic studies what can't you understand in this ???
How french people depicted my ancestors in the slave market :
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
Also, here's this....
The history of the slave trade has given rise to numerous debates amongst historians. For one thing, specialists are undecided on the number of Africans taken from their homes; this is difficult to resolve because of a lack of reliable statistics: there was no census system in medieval Africa. Archival material for the transatlantic trade in the 16th to 18th centuries may seem useful as a source, yet these record books were often falsified. Historians have to use imprecise narrative documents to make estimates which must be treated with caution: Luiz Felipe de Alencastro states that there were 8 million slaves taken from Africa between the 8th and 19th centuries along the Oriental and the Trans-Saharan routes.
Olivier Pétré-Grenouilleau has put forward a figure of 17 million African people enslaved (in the same period and from the same area) on the basis of Ralph Austen's work. Ronald Segal estimates between 11.5 and 14 million were enslaved by the Arab slave trade. Other estimates place it around 11.2 million.
Oops, contradictions.
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
So? Here's how the Medieval French portrayed their ancestors.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith: Also, here's this....
The history of the slave trade has given rise to numerous debates amongst historians. For one thing, specialists are undecided on the number of Africans taken from their homes; this is difficult to resolve because of a lack of reliable statistics: there was no census system in medieval Africa. Archival material for the transatlantic trade in the 16th to 18th centuries may seem useful as a source, yet these record books were often falsified. Historians have to use imprecise narrative documents to make estimates which must be treated with caution: Luiz Felipe de Alencastro states that there were 8 million slaves taken from Africa between the 8th and 19th centuries along the Oriental and the Trans-Saharan routes.
Olivier Pétré-Grenouilleau has put forward a figure of 17 million African people enslaved (in the same period and from the same area) on the basis of Ralph Austen's work. Ronald Segal estimates between 11.5 and 14 million were enslaved by the Arab slave trade. Other estimates place it around 11.2 million.
Numbers vary But they are all above the million and not far from my calculation
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
My source contradicts all scientific values associating gene flow from Sub Saharan Africa during Medieval times!
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith: Also, here's this....
The history of the slave trade has given rise to numerous debates amongst historians. For one thing, specialists are undecided on the number of Africans taken from their homes; this is difficult to resolve because of a lack of reliable statistics: there was no census system in medieval Africa. Archival material for the transatlantic trade in the 16th to 18th centuries may seem useful as a source, yet these record books were often falsified. Historians have to use imprecise narrative documents to make estimates which must be treated with caution: Luiz Felipe de Alencastro states that there were 8 million slaves taken from Africa between the 8th and 19th centuries along the Oriental and the Trans-Saharan routes.
Olivier Pétré-Grenouilleau has put forward a figure of 17 million African people enslaved (in the same period and from the same area) on the basis of Ralph Austen's work. Ronald Segal estimates between 11.5 and 14 million were enslaved by the Arab slave trade. Other estimates place it around 11.2 million.
Numbers vary But they are all above the million and not far from my calculation
As well as the Eurasian Slave Trade! Your point!
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
Are we done?
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith: So? Here's how the Medieval French portrayed their ancestors.
French never meet any moors they portray them as dark to belittle them and because of their ignorance.
This is how people who really saw them portrayed them :
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith: Also, here's this....
The history of the slave trade has given rise to numerous debates amongst historians. For one thing, specialists are undecided on the number of Africans taken from their homes; this is difficult to resolve because of a lack of reliable statistics: there was no census system in medieval Africa. Archival material for the transatlantic trade in the 16th to 18th centuries may seem useful as a source, yet these record books were often falsified. Historians have to use imprecise narrative documents to make estimates which must be treated with caution: Luiz Felipe de Alencastro states that there were 8 million slaves taken from Africa between the 8th and 19th centuries along the Oriental and the Trans-Saharan routes.
Olivier Pétré-Grenouilleau has put forward a figure of 17 million African people enslaved (in the same period and from the same area) on the basis of Ralph Austen's work. Ronald Segal estimates between 11.5 and 14 million were enslaved by the Arab slave trade. Other estimates place it around 11.2 million.
Numbers vary But they are all above the million and not far from my calculation
As well as the Eurasian Slave Trade! Your point!
No sir because as I showed you most white slaves were redeemed by christian associations and the great majority of them were men (slave men weren't allowed to mate with berber women) and their number was way way lower than the number of black slaves.
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith: Also, here's this....
The history of the slave trade has given rise to numerous debates amongst historians. For one thing, specialists are undecided on the number of Africans taken from their homes; this is difficult to resolve because of a lack of reliable statistics: there was no census system in medieval Africa. Archival material for the transatlantic trade in the 16th to 18th centuries may seem useful as a source, yet these record books were often falsified. Historians have to use imprecise narrative documents to make estimates which must be treated with caution: Luiz Felipe de Alencastro states that there were 8 million slaves taken from Africa between the 8th and 19th centuries along the Oriental and the Trans-Saharan routes.
Olivier Pétré-Grenouilleau has put forward a figure of 17 million African people enslaved (in the same period and from the same area) on the basis of Ralph Austen's work. Ronald Segal estimates between 11.5 and 14 million were enslaved by the Arab slave trade. Other estimates place it around 11.2 million.
Numbers vary But they are all above the million and not far from my calculation
As well as the Eurasian Slave Trade! Your point!
No sir because as I showed you most white slaves were redeemed by christian associations and the great majority of them were men (slave men weren't allowed to mate with berber women) and their number was way way lower than the number of black slaves.
Yeah, that's not cutting it, especially when people were freeing African Slaves the same way!
Arab slave trader in Royal Navy custody aboard HMS Sphinx off the Zanzibar and Mozambique coast in about 1907
Also, STOP SPAMMING MORISCOS! Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
This manuscript don't even represent Iberians, it portrays Iraqis!
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
"This could also explain the depiction of Samarra figure types while the rest of the features belong to the Baghdad school of painting."
"The presence of the Samarra style in human types can be explained on account of the survival of the human types in the Fatimid minor arts, particularly textiles and pottery but also in terms of imports directly form Iraq."
How the French people photographed a ggg-ancestress in a 1900 slave market:
Description Bound slave girl Date Circa 1900 Source Delcampe, Verdeau, Liveauctioneers, eBay Author Lehnert & Landrock
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith: What don't you understand by "no large body of blacks historically linked to the trans-Saharan slave trade existed anywhere in the Arab world"
Mentioning someone's interaction with Slaves is not disputing this quote! JUST STOP!
Your source has no scientific value stop your comedy I posted enough genetic studies what can't you understand in this ???
How french people depicted my ancestors in the slave market :
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
You, illiterate! Go to the thread I posted! Better yet I'll bring the thread to you!
QUOTE:
The Hadith Bayad wa Riyad manuscript is believed to be the only illustrated manuscript known to have survived from more than eight centuries of Muslim and Arab presence in Spain. So out of all the Moorish Manuscripts we have only 1 image survives also:
"Since this manuscript is the only reproduction of the text that has survived, there is not enough evidence to tell whether the al-Andalus manuscript had copied other manuscripts from the east, or the artistic influences arrived in al-Andalus by other means such as pottery or textiles. This could also explain the depiction of Samarra figure types while the rest of the features belong to the Baghdad school of painting."
The presence of the Samarra style in human types can be explained on account of the survival of the human types in the Fatimid minor arts, particularly textiles and pottery but also in terms of imports directly form Iraq.
It is particularly noteworthy that in this manuscript the old Samarra style has survived long after it has apparently died out in the eastern Mediterranean what it is typical of the archaic emphasis of Muslim Spanish art and culture. The human faces are represented in three-quarter view, the bodies in frontal view, and the feet in profile. This archetype does not fit all the figures but it certainly does in most of them, although the refinement of the depiction is greater than in Samarra. This may be explained by the medium alone, manuscript painting instead of pottery. It is especially obvious in the depiction of faces (fig. 5). Richard Ettinghausen describes the Samarran ideal of female beauty, which I believe fits the ladies in our manuscript perfectly.
“The women have very large heads and small feet. Their heavy-set moon-shaped faces are expressionless and show large eyes, slightly crooked noses, and full cheeks and chins. The rich coiffure has scalloped curls across the forehead, spiraled curls in front of the ears, and heavy braids. The bodies are heavy, even clumsy, but this heaviness like all the other anatomical features expresses the Arabic and early Persian ideal of female beauty”.
The convention for the folds also have their origin in the Samarran style. An illustrative example is the painting of the figures of the “two dancers”. The style was continued in the frescoes in the Capella Palatina in Palermo and in many examples in Fatimid painting which could be the source for the figure type in this manuscript (see fig 1-2). According to Ettinghausen the Perso-Iraqi style was the predominant one in Fatimid Egypt.
Close examination of the garments does not reveal any indication of al-Andalus textile designs. The figures wear plain robes in dark green, orange, pink and grey-blue. The range of colours that has been used (pink, dark green, dark grey blue, gold, ivory, light brown and orange) can be found in paintings in Syria, the forty-second Maqâmât 6094 in the Biblioteque National and the Schefer Maqâmât Hariri from Iraq. However in the Maqamat, figures wear patterned robes very often. It is worth noting the absence of red, light blue and green.
Kudos to Jari!
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
^^^Yes..The Bayad and Riyad Hadith was heavily influenced by styles from the East, also there is no proof that the images depict Berbers, the Ruling elite for most of the history of Al-Andalus were Arabs not Berbers, and the Andaluci Arabs preferred White European slaves for wives, at least the ruling class.
quote:Saqaliba slaves are well attested in Spain, again mainly as domestic servants: at least several thousand of them are said to have lived in Madinat al-Zahra under the caliph ‘Abd al-Rahman III in the mid-10th century (7). But the Saqaliba also played in Spain a role which in the eastern part of the Islamic world was reserved for the Turks. They constituted a significant part of the caliphal administration and guard, and used these positions as springboards to spectacular careers. A recent study lists by name over 100 Saqaliba from Umayyad Spain )8), a result impressive both by the number of the known individuals and by the diversity of positions in the army and administration they were filling. Spain was thus another important zone of demand for Slavic slaves.
We find a hint in the description of al-Andalus by yet another geographer, Ibn Hawqal, who travelled extensively between 943 and 973 and visited both Spain and Central Asia: “One of the famous items of their merchandise is handsome slave-girls and slave-boys captured in the land of the Franks and in Galicia, as well as Saqaliba eunuchs. All the Saqaliba eunuchs on the surface of the earth are imported from al-Andalus, because they are castrated near that country, and this is done by Jewish merchants. (...) The country [of the Saqaliba] is long and wide. (…) The sea-arm stretching from the ocean towards the country of Gog and Magog traverses their country (...) cutting it into two halves. Thus half of their country, along its whole length, is raided by the Khurasanis who take prisoners from it, while its northern half is raided by the Andalusians. (…) In these areas, many captives can still be obtained” (9)
(7) Ibn Idhari, Kitāb al-bayān al-mughrib fī akhbār al-Andalus wa-al-Maghrib , ed. G.S. Colin, E. Lévi-Provençal, Leiden 1948-1951, II, 232. (8) M. Meouak, Ṣaqāliba, eunuques et esclaves à la conquête du pouvoir. Géographie et histoire des élites politiques "marginales" dans l'Espagne umayyade , Helsinki 2004 (Annales Academiae Scientiarum Fennicae 331), 156-207 (9') Ibn Hauqal, Configuration de la terre (Kitab surat al-Ard) , tr. J. H. Kramers, G. Wiet, Beyrouth 1964, vol. 1, p.109
Also majority of the "Moorish" population were comprised of native Spanish converts, or Muwalladun.
quote: The Muwallads were also referred to as Muslima (Islamized), and elches (ilj,pl ulus), as a reference to the society from which they sprang, and also came to be referred to as Aljamiados, as a reference to their non Arabic-tongue, the term having particular reference to Persian.
Through the cultural Arabization of muladies and their increasing inter-marriage with some Berbers and Arabs present in Iberia, the distinctions between the different Muslim groups became increasingly blurred in the 11th and 12th centuries. The populations mixed with such rapidity that it was soon impossible to distinguish ethnically the elements of foreign origin from the natives. Therefore, they merged into a more homogeneous group of Andalusi Arabs generally also called Moors. Poems in Aljamiado.
The Muwallads primarily spoke Andalusian Arabic, along with a wide variety of Iberian Romance languages. Andalusian Arabic was a mixture of Iberian languages and Classical Arabic, though derived especially from Latin. This local dialect of Arabic was also spoken by the Berbers and Arabs from the 9th century onwards.
In the process of acculturation, Muwallads may well have adopted an agnatic model of descent, but without abandoning the bilaterality of late Roman kinship. According to Abu Jafar ibn Harun of Trujillo vast but silent majority of Muladi Muslims thrived especially in the Extremadura region of Spain.[6]
Among the Muwalladun were the free-born, enfranchised and slaves. A significant part of the Muwalladun was formed by freed slaves. These were the Saqaliba, or Slavs who became a very important social group in Al-Andalus during the 10th and 11th centuries. Upon adopting the ethnic name of their patrons, the emancipated slaves gradually forgot all about their own ethnic origin. The Slavic Muslim slaves, saqaliba led by Muyahid ibn Yusuf ibn Ali their leader, who could take profit from the progressive crumbling of the Umayyad Caliphate's superstructure to gain control over the province of Denia. The Saqaliba managed to free themselves and run the Taifa which extended its reach as far as the islands of Majorca and its capitol Medina Mayurqa.The intermarriage of foreign Muslims with native Christians made many Muwallads mindless of their Iberian origin. As a result, their descendants and many descendants of Christian converts forgot the descent of their ancestors and assumed forged Arab genealogies. However, there were a few who were proud of their Roman and Visigothic origins. These included the Banu Angelino and Banu Sabarico of Seville, Banu Qasi of Aragon, Banu l' Longo and Banu Qabturno. Several Muwallad nobles also used the name Al-Quti (The Goth), and some may have been actual descendants from the family of the Visigothic King of Hispania, Wittiza.
quote:Originally posted by Ase: race is a social construct, not a rational and genetically sound construct.
quote:Originally posted by Ase: When you say "half black" you're likely trying to drag genotypes back into the discussion to bring pseudoscience back into the conversation.
genotypes are a rational and genetically sound analysis so why would bringing up genotypes be pseudoscience?
Yes genotypes are biological constructs, but they do not operate the way "race" as a social concept is used. An Aboriginal and Nigerian have some of the largest genetic distances between humans on Earth. If races need to be closely related to one another, relative to other racial groups this could not happen. You have East Asians and whites that are closer to blacks living below the Sahara than Aboriginals but they aren't considered the same race as those Sub Saharan Africans.
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Ase: A black person either has a black phenotype or doesn't
"black" is the social construct, correct?
and "white" and "yellow" etc
Yes. They are all as concepts social constructs.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ase:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb]
quote:Originally posted by Ase: race is a social construct, not a rational and genetically sound construct.
quote:Originally posted by Ase: When you say "half black" you're likely trying to drag genotypes back into the discussion to bring pseudoscience back into the conversation.
genotypes are a rational and genetically sound analysis so why would bringing up genotypes be pseudoscience?
Yes genotypes are biological constructs
why did you say talking about genotypes is pseudoscience?
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Ase: A black person either has a black phenotype or doesn't, Nassbean. Blacks with so-called "Caucasoid" features are still labeled black socially. And that's important because race is a social construct, not a rational and genetically sound construct. When you say "half black" you're likely trying to drag genotypes back into the discussion to bring psuedoscience back into the conversation.
You see ? That's exactly what I meant by "american identity concepts" no madam race is not a social construct in the old world someone like will smith or Barack obama won't be seen as "black" but as mixed because no one in SSA have their features.
Someone has never properly been to South Africa, then. Aborginals aren't even Native to Africa and they've been treated as black people. How did that happen if race as a social construct is only American? There's well understood phenotype that has been treated as black by whites for centuries now. It includes the "Will Smith" types. Throughout the west those men are treated as Blacks, not just America. Barack Obama has been hailed as the "first black president" in more places than the United States. Europeans did not spare the horners from colonialism that looked like Egyptians. At first I wondered if you were inferring that you didn't practice racism. No, you're implying you are on equal footing to decide what race does and does not mean when you're not.
It's not that the "Old World" doesn't have race consciousness. They've just got so many people trying to tell themselves they're not black to cope with how their phenotype would be judged by REAL whites. If Nigeria said "we're not black" tomorrow, it doesn't change that they're black. Not because they are below the Sahara, fool. If geographic origin was the deciding factor, we wouldn't have Australian Aboriginals living their lives as blacks. And then of course you SAY Sub Saharan Africa is the geographic location that determines blackness but pick and choose when to acknowledge the Horn is below the Sahara. And don't act like you guys don't discriminate against Sudanese, who are closer to the rest of North Africa than say Ethiopians. Ethiopians and Horners that resembled the oldest Upper Egyptians aren't black because of some "Caucasoid" nonsense? Ridiculous.
You guys can play make believe all you want. Race isn't something you choose. Blacks never chose what a black phenotype is and neither do you. It's the status that globalized power affords you. And you. don't. have. that. North Africa doesn't get to "choose" against what white globalized power deems is a black phenotype anymore than Sub Saharan Africans, Australian Aboriginals, Arabs, Latinos and so on.
In fact, the "Old Worlds" place in a racialized society by white supremacy has been violently upheld for decades. Decades of wars and casualties...and MENA thinks it chooses what race is here? If the Old world has resources the west wants for the benefit of white people, and a small group of people from the Near East perform an act of terror, then a "war on terror" will become the pretense to keep those resources for white westerners. Meanwhile Dylan Roof can commit an act of terror and law enforcement took ass to burger king. How you want race to work doesn't change the fact that what race now means to the world depends on power and trillions of dollars in institutional cohesion you do not have. Get over it.
quote:As a good friend told me : "They claim all of the various cultures of MENA (the middle east & north Africa), Babylon, moors, Phoenicians, Egyptians, etc... Funny how they dont care for zulu bantu or whatever else in sub saharan africa.
That's why I schooled you on West African history. Only someone uneducated in West African history (like you) would write would you did earlier. I wonder how I even knew how to respond if all that mattered to me is North Africa? Lol we've extensively covered other civilizations here. It's just that Egypt gets the most news and has the most research compared to the rest of the black world. There being more news to discus from Egypt because people invest more research into it than the rest of Africa does not mean there's no interest in the rest of Africa.
Second, I've not claimed all of the cultures of MENA are black. I said I know of ONE North African civilization that was made by blacks and you lost your shit and called me an "Afrocentrist." I said that the non-black phenotype is native to the region just like the black one. I said there is native ancestry in non black North Africans. and you STILL are trying to pour this attitude of yours onto me. As for your "friend" he's cherrypicking a few black people over the majority. The majority of black people that do discuss North Africa at all, only discuss Egypt. They neither know nor care about the Phonecians if I'm being very honest.
quote: All of this stems from the African American inferiority complex. Reality is there grandparents were slaves on plantations, so its very exciting for them to claim that they were actually royal kings and queens with awesome achievements. "
And before we became slaves we came from civilizations like Mali. And Mali as a nation descends from prior nation states like Ghana. The initial attempt at state formation began around 2k B.C. Around the time the Sahara started to dry to modern levels. Remember when I said there was mass immigration due to climate change that pushed people to Egypt from the Near East? Well it affected North Africa too. Blacks living in Mauritania moved south and the emerging civilizations that were growing there that the time were halted until a new location was found and the situation stabilized. We're discovering adinkra symbols and nsidbidi--secret writing systems that even took account for a legal proceeding. We've had kingdoms and empires of our own.
Yes it was interesting to find out blacks ruled a nation that commanded a similar level of authority to the western world powers today. But I don't need to know blacks had that level of control over other people's lives for a sense of pride. In spite of global anti-blackness, there's still plenty from my culture that is so flavorful and fun, right now. So much so that my people are still imitated all over the world by the very anti-blacks who hate us. I see non-black Latinos and peoples throughout Europe and Asia dressing like Afro diasporans, mimicking the civil rights movements we've made for their sociopolitical woes, making music like the diaspora, emulating our dances, our slang and referencing to the masculinity of black men.
Even as my ancestors suffered to get me here, there is plenty in the present I can now be proud of because of their hard work in recent times. I'll never be ashamed of them. Please don't mistake my simply stating a fact that the Egyptians had a black phenotype with the idea I feel inferior to you. Some people look to the more recent things they've brought to the world and find a sense of pride in that. Other people may have more pride in the achievements of ancestors hundreds or thousands of years ago. While either is fine, what's not fine are those among them that take it to an extreme to think that because that's how they choose to live their lives, it's necessary for everyone to have sense of pride.
quote: If you need to go back to the Phonecians to feel better about the fact you have no globalized presence in the world, have at it.
"Go back?" My culture is imitated all over the world today. There are more people in the world right now that know or imitate my people's music, style, slang or dance alone than those that know where a Phonecian came from or what they have ever done to be perfectly honest. I'm not saying you should find whatever they've achieved to be worthless, I'm not even advocating your worldview on this matter. I'm just saying that even as you insist my people require a globalized presence to feel good about ourselves, we don't need to look that far back should we wish to think in such a way.
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ase:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb]
quote:Originally posted by Ase: race is a social construct, not a rational and genetically sound construct.
quote:Originally posted by Ase: When you say "half black" you're likely trying to drag genotypes back into the discussion to bring pseudoscience back into the conversation.
genotypes are a rational and genetically sound analysis so why would bringing up genotypes be pseudoscience?
Yes genotypes are biological constructs
why did you say talking about genotypes is pseudoscience?
No, I'm saying talking about genotypes within the context of race is pseudoscience. Because genetics do not divide human beings the way people are divided socially by races. You can have human beings that are the same race, but genetically are most closely related to people of another race.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Issued by the government I never vetted accuracy when first posting nearly a decade ago.
Seeing two seasons in photos snapped in the museum prompts me to retract my conclusions on their colour identity.
I still think the women rep coast/tell N Afr phenotypes. Source architectural site needs a looking into for more details.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Example of certain ancient North African phenotype(s). Roman mosaic of North Africans as the Four Seasons
Compare w/t same season in this contemporaneous one from Gaul
Compare agriculture workers from this Neptune a/t 4 Seasons 2nd c. Chebba Tunisia mosaic. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
I agree with Tukuler that white Berbers should not be disavowed as Berbers as they speak Berber languages and partake of Berber culture but the problem is when those same white Berbers try to invalidate the black Berbers as not being true, even though Berber language and culture originated in Africa and is closely related to Egyptian and other Afrasian languages in the region that are spoken originally if not exclusively by black Africans! The same goes for Semites with people stereotyping white or off-white Middle Easterners such as Assyrians, Jews, or Palestinians as quintessential Semites but not the very dark or black skinned Omanis, Qataris, Yemenis, Temani Jews, or even Semitic Ethiopians, even though Proto-Semitic languages descend from Afrasian speakers who entered the Levant from Africa and were also likely black in appearance. The common assumption was that the first Berbers or Amazigh were the Libyans who dwelt in the Western Deserts of ancient Egypt, but linguistics show that proto-Berber likely originated in the end of the 1st millennium BCE if not the beginning of the 1st millennium CE. That said the inhabitants of the Western Desert during dynastic times were likely precursors to Proto-Berber. The Egyptians knew two main groups of Libyans—the Tjehenu and the Tamahu. The former are the older group known from the Old Kingdom and perhaps predynastic times while the latter was acquainted during the New Kingdom.
https://www.temehu.com/Temehu.htm As one is often lured to talk of 'colour' and 'race' when the whole of humankind is found to be of one type, genetically sharing around 99.8% of its DNA material with chimpanzees and 58% with bananas, one can only say that (some of) the Temehu people were said to be 'fair skinned' and 'blue eyed'. Generally speaking the Libyans were in the Old Kingdom shown "red brown", with an Osiris-like chin-beard and tattoos. The Temehu, like the Tehenu, adored the Goddess Neith in tattoos.
Tjehenu man
As the Amazigh website I cited above and ~ has shown even the Tamahu who come from farther west were typically dark in coloring but there were white peoples amongst them or other groups like the Libu. This brings us to back to the fact that modern genetic studies of Amazigh populations show a significant presence of European, specifically maternal ancestry amongst them. The genetic affinities of Amazigh actually vary by population and region but the greatest difference is between Maghrebi populations as a whole and Egyptian populations as shown here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/49827665_Mitochondrial_DNA_Structure_in_North_Africa_Reveals_a_Genetic_Discontinuity_in_the_Nile_Valley
^ The highlighted borders in white represent genetic boundaries and just east of the Egypt-Libyan border within Egypt the Amazigh have nil European maternal ancestry with all maternal ancestry being African. So if we are to go by your theory that Proto-Amazigh come from the Western Deserts of Egypt than that would mean they were ENTIRELY African!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
As much as I hate the picture spamming here we go.
Mozabite Berbers
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Example of certain ancient North African phenotype(s). Roman mosaic of North Africans as the Four Seasons
^ The above Roman mosaic of indigenous Algerians bear a remarkable resemblance to modern Nafusa Berbers like the ones below.
Apparently those stamp images prepared in 1977 are not facsimiles.
I retract what I introduced here on RS many years ago.
I do so in the interest of an authentic Africana.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Wow Did the Algerian government stamp issuer alter the colors even if the Italian website imgs are kinda off color its resolution is superior.
I been had I been took Algeria's gov Made me a schnook
The high percentage of Anatolian genome points to Ottoman infusion as anywhere from 4-25% of Algerians are of Ottoman descent.
Also Tjemehu enter the picture long before the New Kingdom. Harkhuf left primary documentation Of Tjemehu in vicinity to Yam.
And yes anything near Tamazight language is no older than the Sea Peoples.
That leads me to think before the Meshwesh came to dominate Libu, Tjehenu, Tjemehu, and others there were no Imazighen nor Tamazight.
The Meshwesh were the Ma who took over AE introducing several dynasties. It's probably from them the eponymic ancestor Mazigh originates.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Example of certain ancient North African phenotype(s). Roman mosaic of North Africans as the Four Seasons
^ The above Roman mosaic of indigenous Algerians bear a remarkable resemblance to modern Nafusa Berbers like the ones below.
Winter and Spring, details of the Mosaic of the Four Seasons from Ain Beida near Timgad (2nd century AD) Algeria
These are the original versions of the re-made postage stamps at top of the post
We are not looking at scenes from life here. We are looking at mythological personifications of the seasons made by Romans and if we look at who they were calling Goddess of Africa it shows the context of how this foreign occupier viewed things
We have seen these stamps for years at Egyptsearch presented as native Algerians but there is no reason to believe they are supposed to be anything other than Roman mythological personification of the Seasons.
Why are the stamps darker? Perhaps the modern artist who made them in 1977 wanted to make them look darker than the Roman originals so modern Algerians who are darker than Italians on average might relate to them more. For whatever reason, they are not photos of the mosaic they are a modern artist's re-make
The art is occupier art more details on the mosaics here in this other thread>
Algerian Postage stamp: The Seasons - Roman mosaic at Ain Beida
We have seen Gaulish season Winter is of different phenotype than Algerian season winter.
This winter season personage is from Gaul and it's the same age as the one from Algeria.
Neither ancient North Algerians nor Gauls are mythological creatures of imagination.
An example from Spain in the same era. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Bust of Africa (Goddess Africa) Museum El Djem. Tunisia .
.
_________________________________The Goddess Africa and the Four Seasons
Goddess Africa with Four Seasons at the corner, a mosaic in El Djem Museum Tunisia.jpg DescriptionGoddess Africa with Four Seasons at the corner, a mosaic in El Djem Museum
Goddess Africa, also known as Dea Africa, was the personification of Africa by the Romans in the early centuries of the common era. She was one of the fertility and abundance deities to some. ______________________________
No need to go to the Gauls, we have the Goddess of Africa phenotype here and the seasons from Tunisia according to our friends the Romans
Notice the Numidian dreds
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Yes we need imgs from everyplace to attest the fact the facial features are true to the locale. Lyons Winter is obviously of different phenotype than Timgad Winter.
We've seen Goddess Africa on ES before noting her elephant headress. Notice her Numidi style tresses. She resembles this living Amazigh girl and woman.
I have no time for rushed replies serving indefensible purely arguative tripe. I slipped into that nonproductive mode w/Nassbe unfortunately. Greek and Roman mosaics didn't invent nonexistent phenotypes. When dealing with characters from time periods earlier than their own they may have goofed by using contemporary models of a region or followed artistic guidelines similar to coinage typifying the heroic figure instead of photolike exactness of the subject.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Yes we need imgs from everyplace to attest the fact the facial features are true to the locale. Lyons Winter is obviously of different phenotype than Timgad Winter.
We've seen Goddess Africa on ES before noting her elephant headress. She resembles this living Amazigh woman.
[img] [/img]
I have no time for rushed replies serving indefensible purely arguative tripe. I Greek and Roman mosaics didn't invent nonexistent phenotypes. When dealing with characters from time periods earlier than their own they may have goofed by using contemporary models of a region or followed artistic guidelines similar to coinage typifying the heroic figure instead of photolike exactness of the subject.
These are simply Romans like most of their art in their Algerian colony using their standard personification of seasons motif, a Roman phenotype not North African
The Goddess Africa is the one where it's some type of North African berber mixed type of person, perhaps part Phoenician, Greek, African
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Argument to the detriment of learning? All know Roman is "nationality" not ethnicity. Roman phenotype? Even Italian Romans were of various phenotypes pending relatively major Gaul and Greek admixture not to mention relatively minor Levant and Arabian admixture. This remains true of Italy to this very day.
Septimus Severus was Roman, didn't stop him from being native North African.
Italian Romans constantly remarked how he just couldn't enunciate Latin properly.
Nonetheless, t/4 Seasons of Timgad look like North Africans. T/4 Seasons of ancient Spain and Gaul faces look like Iberian and trans Alps ppl. The owners wanted art relecting themselves.
quote: These are simply Romans like most of their art in their Algerian colony using their standard personification of seasons motif, a Roman phenotype not North African
The Goddess Africa is the one where it's some type of North African berber mixed type of person, perhaps part Phoenician, Greek, African
Here's one Italian Winter phenotype.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
still think these are supposed to be indigenous North Africans?
So the Romans came in, colonized and decided to change over all their traditional mythological art to reflect the locals?
They had this big multicultural program going on? Some kind of benevolent occupiers?
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
still think these are supposed to be indigenous North Africans?
So the Romans came in, colonized and decided to change over all their traditional mythological art to reflect the locals?
They had this big multicultural program going on? Some kind of benevolent occupiers?
these mosaics were made by north africans not romans and : "Mosaics, a particularly African art, because in no other region has the tradition of historically paved floors been so widespread. "The Roman Africa of Louis Leschi
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
from Morocco :
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
Another from Morocco :
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
Here from Algeria :
Posted by Forty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
Me thinks the white Africans are white for the same reasons North Africa is white. Clipped by an ice age with a sort of random mixing of light skin genes.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: these mosaics were made by north africans not romans and : "Mosaics, a particularly African art, because in no other region has the tradition of historically paved floors been so widespread. "The Roman Africa of Louis Leschi
that does not mean the mosaics in Roman buildings Timgad were indigenous art
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
still think these are supposed to be indigenous North Africans?
I even warned you to look into the site for details, why didn't you?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
still think these are supposed to be indigenous North Africans?
So the Romans came in, colonized and decided to change over all their traditional mythological art to reflect the locals?
They had this big multicultural program going on? Some kind of benevolent occupiers?
After explaining to you that Roman desn't equal just Rome Italy why persist with speculative nonsense, just arguing to be contrary and combative?
I think those are indigenous African phenotypes just as the Spain, south France and Italy examples rep indigenees of those places. Plainly seen none of the others resembles Italy's Mrs Winter. On top of that Italians often did the Four Seasons in black and white.
Degreed scholars have written about the local nature of North African mosaics before you were born you should know. The Four Seasons motif is common and widespread from N Afr to Spain to Gaul to Britain to Italy to Greece to Cyprus to Syria/Jordan to ... get the picture?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
_______________________________________you don't like this one on the right? You keep leaving him out.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
SMH The blank post above shows fast trigger knee jerk reaction. Egyptology forum deserves better than that, it deserves time taking well thought out messages for readers who really want to learn.
Finally filled in, the post is senseless adding nothing to my series of posts as Winter is the Season of my close up focus because readily available from different countries. The poster is requested to show Spring from Lyons, Britain, and Italy. All Timgad Four Seasons are indigenous North African females w/o exception.
Years ago I stashed these away in my Tamazgha folder.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
All Timgad Four Seasons are indigenous North African females w/o exception.
Are you saying these are supposed to be indigenous North Africans?
A lot of your remarks are not that clear to me
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Oh boy another knee jerk reactionary blank post followed by a redundant already answered post proves the poster is just out for playing around not bothering to read my last couple of posts just blindly lashing out due to frustration of inability to confront the academics substituting jibes for knowledge to win a so-called debate. Nothing debateable here, just the facts. I don't debate because debate here is just ragging the opponent with no thought inanities like repeating an already answered question again and again to stall for time, even the answer was already there before the 1st time the question was asked.
Didn't read, didn't read. No wanna share and pool knowledge to everybody's benefit just nag nag nag confrontation where nobody learns nothing. Such a waste of mind and talent SMH
There's no rush.The race is not to the swift. Take time, do research. Like 8 or more man hrs of research time, then come back w/something worth reading.
Nor am I repeating myself beyond the 3 times I already have. Can't see where it's answered? Then aks somebody!
This behaviour is uncalled for. Go to time-out. Do some research while chillin y don't you.
Not wasting my time on you again till you come back with some research.
Capice?
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
still think these are supposed to be indigenous North Africans?
I even warned you to look into the site for details, why didn't you?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Your comments are cryptic, not clear. Not just now but often
You said the stamp fell short but then showed me all these comparisons. I don't understand it.
You said the stamp fell short but then said all Timgad Four Seasons are indigenous North African females w/o exception. Does this apply to all the Timgad mosaics or just the seasons?
I don't get it. This is not clear. It fell short just on color accuracy but they are still indigenous North Africans? This is what your are saying?
You also said look at a site for details but it's a broken link.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: these mosaics were made by north africans not romans and : "Mosaics, a particularly African art, because in no other region has the tradition of historically paved floors been so widespread."
The Roman Africa of Louis Leschi
Eugène Albertini L'Afrique romaine. Le texte a été mis à jour par Louis Leschi. Alger: Direction de l'interieur et des beaux-arts, Service des antiquités, 1950
See? This poster did the homework referencing an academic on the Ain Beida site and others.
Azul Nassbean
I have some more mosaics I would like your opinion of if you will refrain and control yourself from rhetoric and anti-black prejudgements of comments w/o really digesting what was said.
Are you game?
Ar tufat.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: these mosaics were made by north africans not romans and : "Mosaics, a particularly African art, because in no other region has the tradition of historically paved floors been so widespread. "The Roman Africa of Louis Leschi
that does not mean the mosaics in Roman buildings Timgad were indigenous art
Technically yes because they developed their own type of mosaics and they were entirely made by them (sometimes they even represented the goddess africa who was not represented in other parts of the roman world except on some coins)
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: these mosaics were made by north africans not romans and : "Mosaics, a particularly African art, because in no other region has the tradition of historically paved floors been so widespread."
The Roman Africa of Louis Leschi
Eugène Albertini L'Afrique romaine. Le texte a été mis à jour par Louis Leschi. Alger: Direction de l'interieur et des beaux-arts, Service des antiquités, 1950
See? This poster did the homework referencing an academic on the Ain Beida site and others.
Azul Nassbean
I have some more mosaics I would like your opinion of if you will refrain and control yourself from rhetoric and anti-black prejudgements of comments w/o really digesting what was said.
Are you game?
Ar tufat.
Yes no problem show me
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
"white/leuco berbers are not indigenous" ok then explain this :
we used the same G25 model. Here the result of a tunisian haratin :
I'm mainly north african/berber while he's mainly SSA ...and people here said I was dishonest/racist/anti-black. Sure.
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
I said you were anti-black because in spite of evidence a black phenotype existed among ancient people, you deny North African phenotypic diversity included blacks as well, let alone that such phenotypes were prominent in founder populations of a civilization like Ancient Egypt.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ase: I said you were anti-black because in spite of evidence a black phenotype existed among ancient people, you deny North African phenotypic diversity included blacks as well, let alone that such phenotypes were prominent in founder populations of a civilization like Ancient Egypt.
No sorry you have no evidence for this you just try to impose on us your complexed vision so you can claim our history and culture but nothing support your claims. The only thing I've read in my books about this was that some black groups were indeed indigenous in some parts of the sahara and they were seen as aethiopians by ancient writers but what you still don't understand is that the modern borders of North africa are not representative of the ancient ones. Saying that North africa was not black is totally objective and not "anti-black" simply because I don't want to follow your afrocentrist propaganda.
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Ase: I said you were anti-black because in spite of evidence a black phenotype existed among ancient people, you deny North African phenotypic diversity included blacks as well, let alone that such phenotypes were prominent in founder populations of a civilization like Ancient Egypt.
No sorry you have no evidence for this you just try to impose on us your complexed vision so you can claim our history and culture but nothing support your claims.
I just showed you a study where Ethiopians/Horners were found to be the closest modern people to the (ancient) Upper Egyptian phenotype. You then tried moving goalposts by saying that the Ethiopian phenotype is not black but part of some made-up "Caucasoid" race that has no meaning in the real world sociopolitical sphere. “Caucasoid” blacks still faced colonialism and general oppression. You’re complaining about Ramses when blonde haired blacks have also been facing the same thing. THEN in a separate conversation you alluded to blackness being determined by being part of Sub Saharan African (guess you forgot where the hell Ethiopia is on a map).
North Africa had black cultures and black people. It is possible for certain civilizations and people to be both part of the history of the black phenotype and the ancestral history of Northern Africans (regardless of race). But you hate blacks so much, that such a thought pains you. You are attempting to make a false dichotomy: That race is the same as genetics and therefore if a North African is black, they could not be related to modern North Africans. Oh no, There must have been some Sub Saharan ancestry to account for differences in phenotype which scientifically we find to be untrue. If you have to be closely related to Sub Saharan Africans to look black, how can all these blonde Aboriginal Australians look black but be even more distantly related to Sub Saharan Africans than you? The phenotypic blackness of the original Upper Egyptians does not seem to be so much of a question anymore. The only question is who these blacks were more closely related to genetically. And that’s only an issue of interest because pseudoscientists like you still assume race is a genetic construct and not a social one that judges phenotypes. Your hope is that review of their genetics will somehow make them non-black when it won’t.
quote: The only thing I've read in my books about this was that some black groups were indeed indigenous in some parts of the sahara and they were seen as aethiopians by ancient writers but what you still don't understand is that the modern borders of North africa are not representative of the ancient ones.
Again more modern research on Egyptian remains has found the Upper Egyptians to look Blacks/Ethiopians, while northern Egyptians have been found to look closer to modern non-blacks. Even many of the most racist of Egyptologists said it, which is why the original presumption that Egyptian culture came from the north was so popular. There were at least two races in Egypt and that has been known since very early in Egyptology. But like you, they tried to create a pejorative narrative for the presence of black phenotypes in Egypt. "Subjugated" peoples civilized by northern Semites, and the like. Unless you're saying Egypt doesn't count as North Africa anymore, your comment above is meaningless.
quote:Saying that North africa was not black is totally objective and not "anti-black" simply because I don't want to follow your afrocentrist propaganda.
What you're saying is anti-black. Not only did you deny the phenotype existed, you insist in the few instances it did it was always marginalized. Despite evidence, you are only willing to accept blacks had anything to do with North Africa, if it fits in modern racist ideas of subjugation and subordination.
All black people are not native to Africa so how is saying someone is black always a position related to Afrocentrism? It is not. You harbor hate and phobia of the black phenotype and that is the issue here. You cannot accept the idea people with a black phenotype did anything of repute and you can dodge it with crying about your heritage as though sharing heritage with your ancestors is the same as being the same race.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ase: I said you were anti-black because in spite of evidence a black phenotype existed among ancient people, you deny North African phenotypic diversity included blacks as well, let alone that such phenotypes were prominent in founder populations of a civilization like Ancient Egypt.I just showed you a study where Ethiopians/Horners were found to be the closest modern people to the (ancient) Upper Egyptian phenotype. You then tried moving goalposts by saying that the Ethiopian phenotype is not black but part of some made-up "Caucasoid" race that has no meaning in the real world sociopolitical sphere. “Caucasoid” blacks still faced colonialism and general oppression. You’re complaining about Ramses when blonde haired blacks have also been facing the same thing. THEN in a separate conversation you alluded to blackness being determined by being part of Sub Saharan African (guess you forgot where the hell Ethiopia is on a map).
Again why are you dishonest like that ? Your study show that upper egyptians were craniometrically close to ethiopians but that doesn't mean they had the exact same features, the same type of hair or the same skin color. Just read : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craniometry
here I have other datas too :
I'm ready to bet anything that even modern upper egyptians are craniometrically close to ethiopians but still different in phenotypes ...you can't put ethiopians and afro-americans such as you in the same bag simply because "socially" both are seen as black no sorry miss it doesn't work like that. You have no connection to north or north-east africa focus on your real ancestors instead of stealing every african culture you can because your people have no roots and therefore a deep inferiority complex.
quote:Originally posted by Ase: North Africa had black cultures and black people. It is possible for certain civilizations and people to be both part of the history of the black phenotype and the ancestral history of Northern Africans (regardless of race). But you hate blacks so much, that such a thought pains you. You are attempting to make a false dichotomy: That race is the same as genetics and therefore if a North African is black, they could not be related to modern North Africans. Oh no, There must have been some Sub Saharan ancestry to account for differences in phenotype which scientifically we find to be untrue. If you have to be closely related to Sub Saharan Africans to look black, how can all these blonde Aboriginal Australians look black but be even more distantly related to Sub Saharan Africans than you? The phenotypic blackness of the original Upper Egyptians does not seem to be so much of a question anymore. The only question is who these blacks were more closely related to genetically. And that’s only an issue of interest because pseudoscientists like you still assume race is a genetic construct and not a social one that judges phenotypes. Your hope is that review of their genetics will somehow make them non-black when it won’t.
Again show me evidence of this pls ...Show me that ancient moors,numidians,carthaginians were black. Good luck.
"race is a social construct"... reality :
the only social construct here is your american "black" label : horners are horners they are not the same people as you, same with negritos and aboriginal australians you will not claim them focus on your bantu west african ancestors be proud of them.
with your dumb american logic this indian woman is black and part of your community :
Are you going to say : "ancient south indians were black and we can claim their civilizations because they are socially viewed as black" ...smh
quote:Originally posted by Ase:Again more modern research on Egyptian remains has found the Upper Egyptians to look Blacks/Ethiopians, while northern Egyptians have been found to look closer to modern non-blacks. Even many of the most racist of Egyptologists said it, which is why the original presumption that Egyptian culture came from the north was so popular. There were at least two races in Egypt and that has been known since very early in Egyptology. But like you, they tried to create a pejorative narrative for the presence of black phenotypes in Egypt. "Subjugated" peoples civilized by northern Semites, and the like. Unless you're saying Egypt doesn't count as North Africa anymore, your comment above is meaningless.
Again upper egyptians were not black and certainly didn't look like this lmao :
wtf is that ? SMH
quote:Originally posted by Ase:What you're saying is anti-black. Not only did you deny the phenotype existed, you insist in the few instances it did it was always marginalized. Despite evidence, you are only willing to accept blacks had anything to do with North Africa, if it fits in modern racist ideas of subjugation and subordination.
All black people are not native to Africa so how is saying someone is black always a position related to Afrocentrism? It is not. You harbor hate and phobia of the black phenotype and that is the issue here. You cannot accept the idea people with a black phenotype did anything of repute and you can dodge it with crying about your heritage as though sharing heritage with your ancestors is the same as being the same race. [/QB]
I didn't denied the fact that some black people existed in some part of the sahara but they were a tiny minority even less numerous than the modern black communities that's why they never contributed to our ancient civilizations : BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT NUMEROUS/PRESENT IN THE FERTILE AREAS ...AND NOT BECAUSE THEY WERE BLACK. You're simply an afro-american that has lost her roots and is desesperate to find any african civilization that can feed your ego especially in the social american context where race is always a hot topic and where blacks have been heavily marginalized...Sorry but your racist card won't work with me I'm only talking about facts I don't care about your ideological wars or your tears.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Mosaic, Tipaza Algeria
Nassbean what did North West Africans look like before the Phoenicians or Sea People? Did they look like the above?
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Mosaic, Tipaza Algeria
Nassbean what did North West Africans look like before the Phoenicians or Sea People? Did they look like the above?
They looked like modern coastal north africans :
"The results of this study show that there is a native genetic component that defines North Africans. In-depth study of these markers shows that the people inhabiting North Africa today are not descendants of the earliest occupants of this region fifty thousand years ago, but shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were a group of populations that already lived in the region around thirteen thousand years ago. Furthermore, this local North African genetic component is very different from the one found in the populations in the south of the Sahara, which shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were members of a subgroup of humanity who left Africa to conquer the rest of the world and who subsequently returned to the north of the continent to settle in the region" (https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1002397)
Here as you can see I'm very close to the guanches and punics :
Guanches were never under arab, roman or phoenician rule btw
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
If this woman isn't black then the word black has no meaning. But to be more precise she is charcoal grey like certain Sudanis. Of course she is Indian not African. Anti-black racism began in India millenia ago against those of hers and related phenotypes. Black skinned Brahmins face discrimination in India to this day bearing the brunt of openly voiced barbs even by politicians.
In Africa she'll face discrimination and bias.
Majority of Coolies (E Indians in the West Indies) are black. That doesn't make them African. There's much mutual "hatred" between these two black peoples.
What parallels this? Vast majority of coastal N Afrs are either white, near white, off-white. Does that mean they are claiming Europe cultures as Imazighen? It's also true many Maghrebi's have a European white parent, up to 3 European white grandparents. Yet they claim to be 'pure' Amazigh and swell the ranks of the activists.
If something is misunderstood please ask for clarification. I have lived and interacted with Mzabis, N Libyans, and various Moroccans since 1975. I first interacted with Amazigh activists in 1998 as a matter of solidarity with an oppressed African people. I quit when they increasingly verbally oppressed African descent black peoples.
No flame bait please. Reread and digest before commenting. Thank you.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Vast majority of coastal N Afrs are either white, near white, off-white.
Morocco
Algeria
Tunisia .
.
brown people
Nassbean, would the above people self identify as white in your opinion? Obviously they are not going to say "Hi I'm Habib, I'm Off-White" and they are darker than "Off-white".
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Nassbean what did North West Africans look like before the Phoenicians or Sea People? Did they look like the above?
They looked like modern coastal north africans :
"The results of this study show that there is a native genetic component that defines North Africans. In-depth study of these markers shows that the people inhabiting North Africa today are not descendants of the earliest occupants of this region fifty thousand years ago, but shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were a group of populations that already lived in the region around thirteen thousand years ago.(https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1002397)
This means the modern North Africans go back 12,000 years ago (according to the reference article) but beyond that time outside of Africa
from the article:
quote:Our North African population samples are clearly differentiated from other African populations (Figure 1, Figure 2). MDS component 1 separates sub-Saharan Africans from populations that currently reside outside of Africa (OOA), and the North African populations cluster closest to the Near Eastern Qatari.
However there is not evidence of settlements for around 1000 years in coastal North Africa prior to the Phoenician and Greek colonies starting around 800 BC or earlier
So people living in that time may have been Nomadic. But if "people inhabiting North Africa today are not descendants of the earliest occupants of this region fifty thousand years ago" I don't see archaeological evidence of them prior to Phoenicians and Greeks so this thing about going back 12K is speculative genetics only
Possibly berbers of today are to some extent Phoenicians originally from the Lebanon region with some more African nomadic types mixed in, a touch of Greek, Roman and some Arabs
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
White Berbers should not be disavowed as Berbers as they speak Berber languages and partake of Berber culture but the problem is when those same white Berbers try to invalidate the black Berbers as not being true, even though Berber language and culture originated in Africa and is closely related to Egyptian and other Afrasian languages in the region that are spoken originally if not exclusively by black Africans! The same goes for Semites with people stereotyping white or off-white Middle Easterners such as Assyrians, Jews, or Palestinians as quintessential Semites but not the very dark or black skinned Omanis, Qataris, Yemenis, Temani Jews, or even Semitic Ethiopians, even though Proto-Semitic languages descend from Afrasian speakers who entered the Levant from Africa and were also likely black in appearance. The common assumption was that the first Berbers or Amazigh were the Libyans who dwelt in the Western Deserts of ancient Egypt, but linguistics show that proto-Berber likely originated in the end of the 1st millennium BCE if not the beginning of the 1st millennium CE. That said the inhabitants of the Western Desert during dynastic times were likely precursors to Proto-Berber. The Egyptians knew two main groups of Libyans—the Tjehenu and the Tamahu. The former are the older group known from the Old Kingdom and perhaps predynastic times while the latter was acquainted during the New Kingdom.
https://www.temehu.com/Temehu.htm As one is often lured to talk of 'colour' and 'race' when the whole of humankind is found to be of one type, genetically sharing around 99.8% of its DNA material with chimpanzees and 58% with bananas, one can only say that (some of) the Temehu people were said to be 'fair skinned' and 'blue eyed'. Generally speaking the Libyans were in the Old Kingdom shown "red brown", with an Osiris-like chin-beard and tattoos. The Temehu, like the Tehenu, adored the Goddess Neith in tattoos.
Tjehenu man
Temehou men
As the Amazigh website I cited above and ~ has shown even the Tamahu who come from farther west were typically dark in coloring but there were white peoples amongst them or other groups like the Libu. This brings us to back to the fact that modern genetic studies of Amazigh populations show a significant presence of European, specifically maternal ancestry amongst them. The genetic affinities of Amazigh actually vary by population and region but the greatest difference is between Maghrebi populations as a whole and Egyptian populations as shown here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/49827665_Mitochondrial_DNA_Structure_in_North_Africa_Reveals_a_Genetic_Discontinuity_in_the_Nile_Valley
^ The highlighted borders in white represent genetic boundaries and just east of the Egypt-Libyan border within Egypt the Amazigh have nil European maternal ancestry with all maternal ancestry being African. So if we are to go by your theory that Proto-Amazigh come from the Western Deserts of Egypt than that would mean they were ENTIRELY African!
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Ase: I said you were anti-black because in spite of evidence a black phenotype existed among ancient people, you deny North African phenotypic diversity included blacks as well, let alone that such phenotypes were prominent in founder populations of a civilization like Ancient Egypt.I just showed you a study where Ethiopians/Horners were found to be the closest modern people to the (ancient) Upper Egyptian phenotype. You then tried moving goalposts by saying that the Ethiopian phenotype is not black but part of some made-up "Caucasoid" race that has no meaning in the real world sociopolitical sphere. “Caucasoid” blacks still faced colonialism and general oppression. You’re complaining about Ramses when blonde haired blacks have also been facing the same thing. THEN in a separate conversation you alluded to blackness being determined by being part of Sub Saharan African (guess you forgot where the hell Ethiopia is on a map).
Again why are you dishonest like that ? Your study show that upper egyptians were craniometrically close to ethiopians but that doesn't mean they had the exact same features, the same type of hair or the same skin color.
Craniometrics are important because they give us an idea on the morphology of the face. It can be used to understand a person's phenotype/race, but not their genetic closeness to someone else. Blacks with albinism are still black. Igbo with skin as light as yours if not lighter are still black. Why? Because the morphology of the face is indicative of their race. Hair color and texture as physical features can indicate blacks but even when they deviate from textures that are found mostly in blacks it doesn't change their status as black people. No matter the hair texture, blacks face discrimination and Aboriginals can be black with (naturally) looser blonde hair for goodness sake. The Upper Egyptians were also more inclined to utilize darker tones for their skin compared to more northern peoples.
quote:here I have other datas too :
I recall on ESR some criticism Charlie Bass mentioned about the study. I'll quote him because I'm bored and why make more work out of talking to a brick wall:
quote:After reading an anthropology book from W.W. Howells [Who's Who in Skulls: Ethnic Identification of Crania From Measurements (pg. 95)] I must make some comments about C. Loring Brace and his methods. Howells noted that Brace's 24 measurements that he uses emphasize the nasal area of the skull and not much more, well as has been pointed out in another thread I started, nasal form alone is not a good way of evaluating population relationships since nasal form is correlated with climate, Brace tries to skirt this issue by admitting that nasal form indeed is correlated to climate but then says based on nonadaptive traits Somalis and Northeast African Nile Valley inhabitants are more related to Northwest Europeans than to "sub-Saharan" Africans. He never states nor points out what these nonadaptive traits are.
Secondly, Brace used posterior probabilities which do *NOT* cluster populations by membership and can be misleading because a group with higher probability of membership in a cluster is not necessarily closely related. If anyone remembers anymore of Brace's work you would remember that based on posterior probabilities modern Europeans and Neanderthals are related, but every other study done shows Neanderthals to be more than significantly distant from *ALL* modern populations, Europeans included.
Looks like mostly nasal values. I take it you've got something else?
quote:I'm ready to bet anything that even modern upper egyptians are craniometrically close to ethiopians but still different in phenotypes
Yes, they were closer to Nubians in appearance than Ethiopians, you know...those people that you said were blacks but at war with Egyptians for being black? That nonsense you still haven't proved happened yet? Yes that. Notice the LOWER Egyptians cluster more with modern North Africans and Europeans though. The Lower Egyptians are far more likely to have shared your phenotype than the Upper Egyptians. Some studies show Abydos to be intermediate of lower and upper Egypt Abydos had Northerners that moved in during the late predynastic to early dynastic. These samples aren't really reflective of how non-mixed Upper Egyptians (that created the dominant culture) looked.
quote:...you can't put ethiopians and afro-americans such as you in the same bag simply because "socially" both are seen as black no sorry miss it doesn't work like that.
Yes it does work that way if the "bag" is race. If this weren't so you wouldn't have multi trillion dollar institutions and nations having fought the colonize and subjugate the Ethiopian people because they were black. We wouldn't have had racist Egyptologists cast the Ethiopian looking Upper Egyptians as black savages that were civilized by Norther Lower Egyptians.
quote: You have no connection to north or north-east africa focus on your real ancestors instead of stealing every african culture you can because your people have no roots and therefore a deep inferiority complex.
I never claimed a genetic connection. Almost no blacks that aren't East Africans do. Also I do not really understand what you say about roots: I have a lot of roots that are spread out all over West Africa--quite the opposite. And as I told you last time, we had our own civilizations too. I really can't believe stating a fact on phenotype produced this much bile and hate from another human being. This just shows how bad anti blackness is and that is so sad.
All I said was that North-East Africa (especially in ancient times) had phenotypes that are black. Only anti science nuts like you will read this much research and still make no distinction between race and genetics. If you're going to still twist social constructs to seem like valid genetic ones, then that's a lack of cognitive ability for you to deal with. It has nothing to do with anyone else's inferiority.
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Ase: North Africa had black cultures and black people. It is possible for certain civilizations and people to be both part of the history of the black phenotype and the ancestral history of Northern Africans (regardless of race). But you hate blacks so much, that such a thought pains you. You are attempting to make a false dichotomy: That race is the same as genetics and therefore if a North African is black, they could not be related to modern North Africans. Oh no, There must have been some Sub Saharan ancestry to account for differences in phenotype which scientifically we find to be untrue. If you have to be closely related to Sub Saharan Africans to look black, how can all these blonde Aboriginal Australians look black but be even more distantly related to Sub Saharan Africans than you? The phenotypic blackness of the original Upper Egyptians does not seem to be so much of a question anymore. The only question is who these blacks were more closely related to genetically. And that’s only an issue of interest because pseudoscientists like you still assume race is a genetic construct and not a social one that judges phenotypes. Your hope is that review of their genetics will somehow make them non-black when it won’t.
Again show me evidence of this pls ...Show me that ancient moors,numidians,carthaginians were black. Good luck.
More of the ol' goalpost shift eh? I wasn't talking about ALL ancient North African civilizations or all North African people. I said some were black, and people with a black phenotype DID do more than just be oppressed in North Africa, they were the founder of at least one major civilization: Ancient Egypt.
quote: "race is a social construct"... reality :
Let's take the image at face value for a moment: Why are the West Africans and the Hadza people more closely related North Africans than South Africans? And...am I seeing the colors wrong or are those Somali and Afar next to Taforalt? And are those three closer to North Africans than West Africans? Uh... you can't notice how this thing shows that the idea of race as a genetic construct makes no sense? There are blacks that are more closely related genetically to other races than each other all over the place. That wouldn't happen if genetics were interchangeable with race.
quote:
And East African blacks can be more closely related to (presumably non-black) Northern Africans than they are to West Africans blacks. You start to see on this graph (like the last) how people can be the same race but be more closely related to a people of another race. When you compare genetic distances between say a Yoruba to an Australian Aboriginal, the genetic distances would be even greater than any group on these graphs. As in: it'd make the idea of race as something that's roots well in genetics look even more stupid.
quote: the only social construct here is your american "black" label
Negritos and Aboriginal Australians are not even Americans, nor make a significant portion of the black population in America ...and yet I'm only evaluating phenotypes based strictly on race in America? No I'm considering how blacks are labeled in general not just in America. And North Africans didn't even make the concept of race, nor do they have the money nor military might to enforce any alternative ideas they may have against the west's. America alone spends more on it's global military presence than all of you combined. And you think you can dictate to the west as a whole some shit they created? Lol poor thing, you want to have the position of the West to decide race and you don't.
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Ase:
All black people are not native to Africa so how is saying someone is black always a position related to Afrocentrism? It is not. You harbor hate and phobia of the black phenotype and that is the issue here. You cannot accept the idea people with a black phenotype did anything of repute and you can dodge it with crying about your heritage as though sharing heritage with your ancestors is the same as being the same race.
I didn't denied the fact that some black people existed in some part of the sahara but they were a tiny minority even less numerous than the modern black communities
You didn't just say they weren't very present, you then went on to say they only existed as marginalized people. Not only did you minimize their presence, you attempted to give it low social value when modern races didn't have the social consequence they do today. You assumed racial conflicts existed where they didn't and still can't prove it. Only someone anti black would say such things with no evidence. We're STILL waiting for you to produce proof that Egyptian fights with Nubians were over race.
quote:that's why they never contributed to our ancient civilizations : BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT NUMEROUS/PRESENT IN THE FERTILE AREAS ...AND NOT BECAUSE THEY WERE BLACK.
Majority of Early period Egyptians numerically were Upper Egyptians. The major cities/proto states were Southern Egyptian with the black phenotypes I just discussed. This is precisely the problem. You're saying the black phenotype wasn't present in fertile areas but they were. You KEEP ignoring any data that shows people that looked this way shaped the dominant culture. You just rambling about the same stuff over and over because you're anti-black.
quote:You're simply an afro-american that has lost her roots and is desesperate to find any african civilization that can feed your ego especially in the social american context
Learn to put a period somewhere. You don't have to speak English well to know the difference between a paragraph and a sentence. That is so annoying and so yeah I've snipped this. And for that record I already responded to you:
quote:
quote:If you need to go back to the Phonecians to feel better about the fact you have no globalized presence in the world, have at it.
"Go back?" My culture is imitated all over the world today. There are more people in the world right now that know or imitate my people's music, style, slang or dance alone than those that know where a Phonecian came from or what they have ever done to be perfectly honest. I'm not saying you should find whatever they've achieved to be worthless, I'm not even advocating your worldview on this matter. I'm just saying that even as you insist my people require a globalized presence to feel good about ourselves, we don't need to look that far back should we wish to think in such a way.
If you're gonna try and be a bigot, at least be smart enough to assemble the criteria for your bigotry in a way where you're not throwing stones from a glass house.
Answer the above or shut up already. I hate when people pick and choose when to be "defenders of culture and heritage" while overlooking the modern people in their own communities making millions if not billions of dollars off other people's cultures. (Non-black) MENA has numerous examples of people that make a ton of money this way that don't do shit for our people. And it's not just people from MENA that can get away with that. People from all over the world do it. The Koreans' pop music takes heavily from black culture and for decades they've been trying to take over the material culture black hair care industry. Making cheap dupes of our products to force buy outs, or to put us out of business. Wealthy whites have fought hard to own the commercial rights to our culture. Who studies another culture and uses vast time and/or resources own it? Many people apparently, if the people negatively affected are black.
You'd be a damn lie to say we're out there immigrating to MENA to set up billion dollar corporations that eat, sleep and breathe your culture to survive while the native people are left poorer than before. Their motive is to express pride in people that proved having a particular appearance doesn't mean you CAN'T achieve something. My people already do cultural exchange with other blacks for those reasons.
It'd be a little easier to deal with some of what's been going on if people would truly accept us being that exploitative, or if there was a mutual cultural exchange, but there's no way in hell as many of you can see. Nassbean is only on here bitching when a few blacks want cultural exchange with other blacks that are related to him. But do you think think that if it was just a bunch of non-blacks (including MENA) wanting to make money off our culture, he'd be here to complain? No. Not only has this fool not said anything about it, he erases the contributions our cultures are making to the world today to make way for the multi billionaires and millionaires to leech off us.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^ can you reduce the size of this huge post? It looks like it has a lot of repetitive stuff in it
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Ase
Leave it alone unless the Egyptology moderators make that call.
But I'll tell you one thing. Only negroes allow others be disrespectful in their house. Don't think for a moment if an African blk descendant wrote on an Amazigh forum the way N ass being does here mgmt would a gave one warning and if ignored they'd ban and delete the black or maybe if known in advance a registrant was blk wouldn't allow em on board to start with.
Negroes feel they have to prove how liberal they are to every ppl who put a foot up they asz but will chastise a blk for speaking up for blx especially if a yte buddy tells em too.
But the biggest joke of all besides all the "Free People" ranting is stealing AE origin for her own ppls' (mothers side? fathers side?) when everyone ever studied history and archaeology knows the AE knew nothing of the Maghreb until the Meshwesh came along in the New Kingdom.
She said her rag should be in every African Studies dept library in universities to set the blx straight. But then what to expect from a Zigh who says its a fact Berbers originated western Beled es Sudan civilization!
Eldridge Cleaver told us [coastal] Algeria is the most racist country.
quote:“having lived intimately for several years among the Arabs, I know them to be among the most racist people on earth.”
Cleaver’s article, written from his jail cell, was published in the Boston Herald-American. He said that many wealthy Arab families owned one or two Black slaves. “Sometimes they own an entire family. I have seen such slaves with my own eyes,” he wrote describing his experience in Algeria where he lived after fleeing the United States.
I never experienced any racism from Mzabis though its true even Mzabis with recognizable African blk admixture deny it (See Briggs 1958 pp71-2).
The days of Rai were the last I dealt with non-Jewish Berbers.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Again why are you dishonest like that ? Your study show that upper egyptians were craniometrically close to ethiopians but that doesn't mean they had the exact same features, the same type of hair or the same skin color. Just read : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craniometry
here I have other datas too:
I'm ready to bet anything that even modern upper egyptians are craniometrically close to ethiopians but still different in phenotypes ...you can't put ethiopians and afro-americans such as you in the same bag simply because "socially" both are seen as black no sorry miss it doesn't work like that. You have no connection to north or north-east africa focus on your real ancestors instead of stealing every african culture you can because your people have no roots and therefore a deep inferiority complex.
Craniometrics alone cannot properly assess genetic relations, if it did then according to the euclidian graph above Sub-Saharan Africans are genetically closer to Melanesians than they are to North Africans and Nubians are genetically closer to Indians than to Egyptians. It makes absolutely no sense.
quote:Again show me evidence of this pls ...Show me that ancient moors,numidians,carthaginians were black. Good luck.
The word 'Moor' MEANS black and comes from the Greek Maure which was used to describe Africans (on the coast) and not simply Sub-Saharans. I suggest you do a search in this forums archives on the word Moor so you can see all the evidence that has been shown already.
quote:"race is a social construct"... reality :
Yes. Interesting how Taforalt the presumed ancestor of all Maghrebi displays an intermediate proximity to the Yemeni on on hand and the Somali on another, with the latter in turn being closer to the East African aboriginal Hadza. Race is a social construct because it is arbitrary grouping based largely on phenotype and the PCA above proves that with the ancient Taforalt closer related to modern (black) Afar Ethiopians than modern Tunisians and that even Taforalt is closer related to modern West Africans much more so than West Africans are to South African aboriginals!! So your own data shot you in your face! LOL
quote: the only social construct here is your american "black" label : horners are horners they are not the same people as you, same with negritos and aboriginal australians you will not claim them focus on your bantu west african ancestors be proud of them.
LOL "Black" as a descriptive label for skin color was not something invented in America, but was used far long before the advent of Christopher Columbus. Again it was initially used by Europeans to describe Africans with the older word being 'Moor'. It just so happens that Africans being the oldest peoples in the world (since humanity originated there) are the most genetically diverse hence the distance between Africans from different regions of the continent.
quote:with your dumb american logic this indian woman is black and part of your community:
Are you going to say : "ancient south indians were black and we can claim their civilizations because they are socially viewed as black" ...smh
Yes the woman above is obviously BLACK! That does not mean she is of recent African descent or closely related to those of the African diaspora or even African Americans. I'm sure you're intelligent enough to know that not only is she called 'black' by Westerners but even in her own country she is called "kali" which means black in Hindi!!
quote:Again upper egyptians were not black and certainly didn't look like this lmao :
[straw-doll picture spam]
wtf is that ? SMH
Upper Egyptians were black in antiquity times...
Tut & his wife
They were black in medieval times...
Saint MOORius a.k.a. St. Maurice of Thebes Egypt the patron saint of warriors and the 1st black saint
And they are still black today!
Luxori children
quote:I didn't denied the fact that some black people existed in some part of the sahara but they were a tiny minority even less numerous than the modern black communities that's why they never contributed to our ancient civilizations : BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT NUMEROUS/PRESENT IN THE FERTILE AREAS ...AND NOT BECAUSE THEY WERE BLACK.
You do realize that there were wet periods of climatic shift when the Sahara did not even exist and all of North Africa was green and fertile so what limited blacks to only 'Sub-Saharan' regions then?? You speak of "our ancient civilizations" but I and others in this forum have shown you countless pictures of dynastic Egyptians who look closer to African Americans than 'fair and lovely' types.
Also, what makes you think the white Berbers and other North Africans represent the original type of North Africans?!! Even the racist anthropologist Carlton Coon claimed that the original North African or Proto-Berbers were of the "Brown Mediterranean" type and called white Berbers a "alien incursion".
In fact here a couple examples of his pristine "brown Mediterraneans".
Algerian
Moroccan
At least Coon is more honest than you are in calling such Africans "brown". LOL
quote:You're simply an afro-american that has lost her roots and is desperate to find any African civilization that can feed your ego especially in the social american context where race is always a hot topic and where blacks have been heavily marginalized...Sorry but your racist card won't work with me I'm only talking about facts I don't care about your ideological wars or your tears.
And you're simply a white Amazigh in desperate denial about your BLACK heritage that you want to stuff into the closet you've labeled Sub-Sahara. It's YOU who doesn't care about facts but your own negrophobic, wash-white, ideology!!
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
You mean his likely black ancestors. In some cases we can have ancestors of different races, but saying people can have "black heritage" gives ideas of genetic relationship and that may confuse lurkers. I'd like to get people's thoughts on what language would be best to communicate race is not genetic but social. But anyway, I tried showing him a climate map of ancient North Africa when Egyptian civilization formed. It was more Sahel like. It's conditions only became more like modern north Africa 4,000 years ago. He responded by giving me an earlier map of what scientists described as a temporary dry period in North Africa. Not sure if he ever got around to explaining how a Sahel climate would've created a barrier when many blacks live in it today. I guess they'll believe anything to scrub blacks out of North African history.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
See here in brown is where blx dominated Sahara as soon as it became liveable again after ~20,000 years as a wasteland. Even the humbel chiclid fish swam from Zambia to Tunisia. Tawny shows the Gafsian Sahara.Very important notice tawnies dip into the country Sudan. Proto Tjemehu no doubt. NW at the border of todays Maroc & Sahrawi near El Aaiun blx may've been where L3ab1 was launched to Canaria. At the Med coast is a little known culture probably in touch with SW Eur so I colored it pink <wink>.
Neolithic North Africa built from various ethnies * Sudanic * Gafsian * South Mediterranean * Atlantic
This is why no one phenotype is THE North African phenotype.
Finally the only origin map for Tamazight I know of. See proto-North Berber to North Tamehu arrow? Meshwesh? But 1400 BCE seems more reasonable than 2k.
So what's the beef? Amazigh inferiority and wannabe complexes over Phoenicians, Greeks, Italy Romans, Visigoths, Vandals, Byzantine Romans, Arabs, Ottoman Turks, and French/Italians/Spaniards whuppin they butt since the birth of E-M183 and Tamazight speech.
The Amazigh Voice activists idea is, yeah that may be so, but at least we're not black "the N-words". And that's how they made it after the days of Pan-Africanism when they were then at least cordial and often in solidarity.
The great African divide today, just as climate driven as early and mid Holocene.
Yessiiiirrr issa nuthuh Tukuler redux
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Vast majority of coastal N Afrs are either white, near white, off-white.
Morocco
Algeria
Tunisia .
.
brown people
Nassbean, would the above people self identify as white in your opinion? Obviously they are not going to say "Hi I'm Habib, I'm Off-White" and they are darker than "Off-white".
When I say we're "white" I'm not using the american label but I say "white" in contrast to black africans but I do not imply that we're europeans or that we look like them
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Nassbean what did North West Africans look like before the Phoenicians or Sea People? Did they look like the above?
They looked like modern coastal north africans :
"The results of this study show that there is a native genetic component that defines North Africans. In-depth study of these markers shows that the people inhabiting North Africa today are not descendants of the earliest occupants of this region fifty thousand years ago, but shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were a group of populations that already lived in the region around thirteen thousand years ago.(https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1002397)
This means the modern North Africans go back 12,000 years ago (according to the reference article) but beyond that time outside of Africa
from the article:
quote:Our North African population samples are clearly differentiated from other African populations (Figure 1, Figure 2). MDS component 1 separates sub-Saharan Africans from populations that currently reside outside of Africa (OOA), and the North African populations cluster closest to the Near Eastern Qatari.
However there is not evidence of settlements for around 1000 years in coastal North Africa prior to the Phoenician and Greek colonies starting around 800 BC or earlier
So people living in that time may have been Nomadic. But if "people inhabiting North Africa today are not descendants of the earliest occupants of this region fifty thousand years ago" I don't see archaeological evidence of them prior to Phoenicians and Greeks so this thing about going back 12K is speculative genetics only
Possibly berbers of today are to some extent Phoenicians originally from the Lebanon region with some more African nomadic types mixed in, a touch of Greek, Roman and some Arabs
Not really because we have two bronze age samples from iberia and sardinia with a genetic profile similar to modern north africans ...they predates any phoenician colonization.
And in the ancient testimonials berbers are already mentionned when Dido try to settled in Tunisia :
" Eventually Dido and her followers arrived on the coast of North Africa where Dido asked the Berber king Iarbas for a small bit of land for a temporary refuge until she could continue her journeying, only as much land as could be encompassed by an oxhide. They agreed. Dido cut the oxhide into fine strips so that she had enough to encircle an entire nearby hill, which was therefore afterwards named Byrsa "hide". (This event is commemorated in modern mathematics: The "isoperimetric problem" of enclosing the maximum area within a fixed boundary is often called the "Dido Problem" in modern calculus of variations.) That would become their new home. Many of the local Berbers joined the settlement and both Berbers and envoys from the nearby Phoenician city of Utica urged the building of a city. In digging the foundations an ox's head was found, indicating a city that would be wealthy but subject to others. Accordingly, another area of the hill was dug instead where a horse's head was found, indicating that the city would be powerful in war."
How can you say that there was no one in north africa before phoenicians if we found iberomaurusian,capsian and KEB remains ?? Phoenicians only came in 1100 BCE while egyptians mentionned berbers way before this date ...
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: When I say we're "white" I'm not using the american label but I say "white" in contrast to black africans but I do not imply that we're europeans or that we look like them
The west in general doesn't take your labels seriously, not just America. Or do you think it's just America stationed throughout the Near East to secure profits? Some of you would be considered white enough. But MENA has strong religious affiliations to Islam and too many people that can't pass for white? Full acceptance as whites seems impossible. If you're still going to wait on that while the west is still dropping bombs in the Near East to make money good luck.
It's sad that people who identify with a geopolitical region that has faced wars for decades still has so many people trying to believe they're white. My country alone has spent trillions alongside other western countries to exploit the Near East because many of you in "MENA" aren't white. I guess they believe if they can tell themselves they're white they can feel better about it. Ironically the same people will say blacks can only look Bantu and pigeonhole blackness to one look but will swear that their brown or black looking cousins, mothers and fathers are white. Hahahahaha!
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ase: Craniometrics are important because they give us an idea on the morphology of the face. It can be used to understand a person's phenotype/race, but not their genetic closeness to someone else. Blacks with albinism are still black. Igbo with skin as light as yours if not lighter are still black. Why? Because the morphology of the face is indicative of their race. Hair color and texture as physical features can indicate blacks but even when they deviate from textures that are found mostly in blacks it doesn't change their status as black people. No matter the hair texture, blacks face discrimination and Aboriginals can be black with (naturally) looser blonde hair for goodness sake. The Upper Egyptians were also more inclined to utilize darker tones for their skin compared to more northern peoples.
Yes but what you still don't understand is that when it comes to "the morphology of the face" horners are closer to eurasians than to west africans like you :
an ethiopian woman like this :
is craniometrically closer to this :
than this :
That's why your datas contradict your statements not mine.
Also where do you see black upper egyptians here ?? :
quote:Originally posted by Ase: I recall on ESR some criticism Charlie Bass mentioned about the study. I'll quote him because I'm bored and why make more work out of talking to a brick wall:
quote:After reading an anthropology book from W.W. Howells [Who's Who in Skulls: Ethnic Identification of Crania From Measurements (pg. 95)] I must make some comments about C. Loring Brace and his methods. Howells noted that Brace's 24 measurements that he uses emphasize the nasal area of the skull and not much more, well as has been pointed out in another thread I started, nasal form alone is not a good way of evaluating population relationships since nasal form is correlated with climate, Brace tries to skirt this issue by admitting that nasal form indeed is correlated to climate but then says based on nonadaptive traits Somalis and Northeast African Nile Valley inhabitants are more related to Northwest Europeans than to "sub-Saharan" Africans. He never states nor points out what these nonadaptive traits are.
Secondly, Brace used posterior probabilities which do *NOT* cluster populations by membership and can be misleading because a group with higher probability of membership in a cluster is not necessarily closely related. If anyone remembers anymore of Brace's work you would remember that based on posterior probabilities modern Europeans and Neanderthals are related, but every other study done shows Neanderthals to be more than significantly distant from *ALL* modern populations, Europeans included.
Looks like mostly nasal values. I take it you've got something else?
Lol charlie bass the same guy who used the nubian mummy of Maiherpri as a proof that ancient egyptians were black ...I will certainly not trust any of his claims that's for sure.
quote:Originally posted by Ase: Yes, they were closer to Nubians in appearance than Ethiopians, you know...those people that you said were blacks but at war with Egyptians for being black? That nonsense you still haven't proved happened yet? Yes that. Notice the LOWER Egyptians cluster more with modern North Africans and Europeans though. The Lower Egyptians are far more likely to have shared your phenotype than the Upper Egyptians. Some studies show Abydos to be intermediate of lower and upper Egypt Abydos had Northerners that moved in during the late predynastic to early dynastic. These samples aren't really reflective of how non-mixed Upper Egyptians (that created the dominant culture) looked.
Why are you lying ? Where did I say that egyptians were at war with nubians simply because they were black ??? Egyptians had multiple ennemies including nubians and we clearly see a huge differences between how they portrayed themselves and how they portrayed nubians. Again stop your propaganda upper egyptians were not black and didn't look like horners they looked like modern upper egyptians :
quote:Originally posted by Ase:Yes it does work that way if the "bag" is race. If this weren't so you wouldn't have multi trillion dollar institutions and nations having fought the colonize and subjugate the Ethiopian people because they were black. We wouldn't have had racist Egyptologists cast the Ethiopian looking Upper Egyptians as black savages that were civilized by Norther Lower Egyptians.
lol they colonized the whole world not only SSA stop playing the victim. Horners are not your people and do not bring pseudo-scientific claims from the XIXth century so it supports your agenda.
quote:Originally posted by Ase: I never claimed a genetic connection. Almost no blacks that aren't East Africans do. Also I do not really understand what you say about roots: I have a lot of roots that are spread out all over West Africa--quite the opposite. And as I told you last time, we had our own civilizations too. I really can't believe stating a fact on phenotype produced this much bile and hate from another human being. This just shows how bad anti blackness is and that is so sad.
All I said was that North-East Africa (especially in ancient times) had phenotypes that are black. Only anti science nuts like you will read this much research and still make no distinction between race and genetics. If you're going to still twist social constructs to seem like valid genetic ones, then that's a lack of cognitive ability for you to deal with. It has nothing to do with anyone else's inferiority.
lol it still doesn't change the fact that upper egyptians didn't have a black phenotype you will not reduce all the african diversity because of your one drop rule ...in america people like Rachel Dolezal can be seen as black LMAO West africans like you have phenotypes that don't exist in the horn or in ancient Egypt stop being delusional.
quote:Originally posted by Ase: North Africa had black cultures and black people. It is possible for certain civilizations and people to be both part of the history of the black phenotype and the ancestral history of Northern Africans (regardless of race). But you hate blacks so much, that such a thought pains you. You are attempting to make a false dichotomy: That race is the same as genetics and therefore if a North African is black, they could not be related to modern North Africans. Oh no, There must have been some Sub Saharan ancestry to account for differences in phenotype which scientifically we find to be untrue. If you have to be closely related to Sub Saharan Africans to look black, how can all these blonde Aboriginal Australians look black but be even more distantly related to Sub Saharan Africans than you? The phenotypic blackness of the original Upper Egyptians does not seem to be so much of a question anymore. The only question is who these blacks were more closely related to genetically. And that’s only an issue of interest because pseudoscientists like you still assume race is a genetic construct and not a social one that judges phenotypes. Your hope is that review of their genetics will somehow make them non-black when it won’t.More of the ol' goalpost shift eh? I wasn't talking about ALL ancient North African civilizations or all North African people. I said some were black, and people with a black phenotype DID do more than just be oppressed in North Africa, they were the founder of at least one major civilization: Ancient Egypt.
LOL I just posted tons of north african and haratin results...and as I've said these black "berbers" have a big ssa component that is not indigenous to north africa ofc you avoided it. If these blacks are indigenous why they don't score as much north african ancestry as us ? why they are not close to guanches like us ?? the answer is simple : they are the product of the recent slave trade. And no blacks were not the founders of Ancient Egypt only afrocentrists like yourself believe in this.
quote:Originally posted by Ase: Let's take the image at face value for a moment: Why are the West Africans and the Hadza people more closely related North Africans than South Africans? And...am I seeing the colors wrong or are those Somali and Afar next to Taforalt? And are those three closer to North Africans than West Africans? Uh... you can't notice how this thing shows that the idea of race as a genetic construct makes no sense? There are blacks that are more closely related genetically to other races than each other all over the place. That wouldn't happen if genetics were interchangeable with race.
here the south africans are represented by khoisans not the modern bantus of south africa. West africans like yourself have taforalt admixture :
"Moreover, our model predicts that West Africans (represented by Yoruba) had 12.5±1.1% ancestry from a Taforalt-related group rather than Taforalt having ancestry from an unknown Sub-Saharan African source11 ; this may have mediated the limited Neanderthal admixture present in West Africans23. An advantage of our model is that it allows for a local North African component in the ancestry of Taforalt, rather than deriving them exclusively from Levantine and Sub-Saharan sources." https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/423079v1.full
And again you don't understand if race was only a social construct why don't we all plot in the same place ? Why do west africans form their own homogeneous group? Why do horners (who have a big eurasian component and look different from people like you) form also their own group ? That's why I said you can't put horners in the same bag as you they are not your people and look totally different from bantus only their skin is black. They plot close to us because they have a big eurasian component they are not like you and your people.
quote:Originally posted by Ase: East African blacks can be more closely related to (presumably non-black) Northern Africans than they are to West Africans blacks. You start to see on this graph (like the last) how people can be the same race but be more closely related to a people of another race. When you compare genetic distances between say a Yoruba to an Australian Aboriginal, the genetic distances would be even greater than any group on these graphs. As in: it'd make the idea of race as something that's roots well in genetics look even more stupid.
East african blacks ?? lol horners have only a black skinned color but genetically and craniometrically they are closer to other eurasians.
quote:Originally posted by Ase: Negritos and Aboriginal Australians are not even Americans, nor make a significant portion of the black population in America ...and yet I'm only evaluating phenotypes based strictly on race in America? No I'm considering how blacks are labeled in general not just in America. And North Africans didn't even make the concept of race, nor do they have the money nor military might to enforce any alternative ideas they may have against the west's. America alone spends more on it's global military presence than all of you combined. And you think you can dictate to the west as a whole some shit they created? Lol poor thing, you want to have the position of the West to decide race and you don't.
Wtf are you talking about ?? I live in the West (Europe) and no one would ever put negritos or aboriginal australians in the same bag as congolese or senegalese I already told you that your american point of view is not valid and doesn't exist in the old world here we accept divesity we do not simplify everything like you do.
quote:Originally posted by Ase: Answer the above or shut up already. I hate when people pick and choose when to be "defenders of culture and heritage" while overlooking the modern people in their own communities making millions if not billions of dollars off other people's cultures. (Non-black) MENA has numerous examples of people that make a ton of money this way that don't do shit for our people. And it's not just people from MENA that can get away with that. People from all over the world do it. The Koreans' pop music takes heavily from black culture and for decades they've been trying to take over the material culture black hair care industry. Making cheap dupes of our products to force buy outs, or to put us out of business. Wealthy whites have fought hard to own the commercial rights to our culture. Who studies another culture and uses vast time and/or resources own it? Many people apparently, if the people negatively affected are black.
LMAO so your culture is hip-hop and twerk ?? You're extremelly delusional if you think we praise it...nobody gives a fuc* about this in the MENA area.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ase:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: When I say we're "white" I'm not using the american label but I say "white" in contrast to black africans but I do not imply that we're europeans or that we look like them
The west in general doesn't take your labels seriously, not just America. Or do you think it's just America stationed throughout the Near East to secure profits? Some of you would be considered white enough. But MENA has strong religious affiliations to Islam and too many people that can't pass for white? Full acceptance as whites seems impossible. If you're still going to wait on that while the west is still dropping bombs in the Near East to make money good luck.
It's sad that people who identify with a geopolitical region that has faced wars for decades still has so many people trying to believe they're white. My country alone has spent trillions alongside other western countries to exploit the Near East because many of you in "MENA" aren't white. I guess they believe if they can tell themselves they're white they can feel better about it. Ironically the same people will say blacks can only look Bantu and pigeonhole blackness to one look but will swear that their brown or black looking cousins, mothers and fathers are white. Hahahahaha!
hahah wtf are you talking about ?? Are you going to question my own skin color ?? sorry for you but it's white but a white skin doesn't imply being automatically related to europeans wtf North africans and Middle easterners are proud people we don't care about europeans or complexed blacks like you we enslaved both of you and we controlled parts of SSA and europe at the same time We certainly don't care about any of your opinions We are our own people stop having this childish and dichotomical view of ethnicities there is not just white and black in this world ....Afro-americans have clearly been heavily brainwashed it's crazy.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
How can you say that there was no one in north africa before phoenicians if we found iberomaurusian,capsian and KEB remains ?? Phoenicians only came in 1100 BCE while egyptians mentionned berbers way before this date ...
I didn't say that. I'm saying prior to the Phoenicians there isn't evidence of settlement for about 1000 years in coastal North Africa. You have to go back to the Capsians 8,000 to 2,700 BC
2700-1100 = 1,600 year gap
so you can't establish continuity after Capsian
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
How can you say that there was no one in north africa before phoenicians if we found iberomaurusian,capsian and KEB remains ?? Phoenicians only came in 1100 BCE while egyptians mentionned berbers way before this date ...
I didn't say that. I'm saying prior to the Phoenicians there isn't evidence of settlement for about 1000 years in coastal North Africa. You have to go back to the Capsians 8,000 to 2,700 BC
2700-1100 = 1,600 year gap
so you can't establish continuity after Capsian
Again not really :
the Bovidian phase (IVth millenium - to the middle of the IIth millenium BCE) where we see the intrusion of caucasoid populations coming from the north into the sahara ( Tassili ) but they were still surrounded by melanoderm populations who were more numerous. It was a pastoralist society : Scene camp Iheren (Tassili n'Ajjer), recent phase of the bovidian style (statement J. Colombel).
Next they are followed by the Equidians the first drivers of chariots in Africa and it is also with them that horses are now represented on cave paintings. Their specific painting style is considered less realistic in comparison to bovidians : the attitude of the animals, the gestures of the characters are steeper and, importantly, the faces are not represented but replaced systematically by a palette or a bifid rod. Also according to C.depuy :
"If these images of spearmen clearly attest to the advent of bellicose pastoralism in the southern Sahara at a time when the biotope was deteriorating, in a more particular way, the elements of adornment and ceremonial objects. figuratives testify, by their diversity, to a race for embellishment, and to the prestige in which to permanently figure up to its social rank was important."
According to Gabriel Camps (this one is for Ase) :
" Equidians chariot drivers seem to have constituted a warrior caste which imposed its domination on the negroid population, or more exactly on melanoderms, which had preceded them and had not disappeared "
Now let's enter into the Historical era : for proto-historical times we have funerary monuments who are specific of North africa like for instance the "bazina" :
This architecture seems post-Neolithic. The term comes from the Berber word meaning mound.
When phoenicians came they met berbers : "When the Tyrian lady founded Carthage, the king of the Libyans, Hiarbas, wanted to marry her. Rather, says the legend, that to be unfaithful to her first husband, killed by Pygmaion at Tire, Didon pretended to perform an expiatory ceremony and mounted herself at the stake she had lit. Justin makes Hiarbas king of Maxitani "
Also according to S.lancel :
"If this fable enhances the commercial ingenuity of Phoenician immigrants, at the expense of the naive ingenuousness of Libyans, it must also be emphasized that it intends to show that newcomers do not take foot in a no-man's land. "
"It will be remembered that Phoenician immigrants did not introduce their own social organization and their artisanal and mercantile know-how in a totally empty space from the ethnic and political point of view. What will be called later Punic civilization was born from the meeting in Africa of a Libyan-Berber substrate still immersed in protohistory and a Semitic culture already experienced by history."
Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Ase:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: When I say we're "white" I'm not using the american label but I say "white" in contrast to black africans but I do not imply that we're europeans or that we look like them
The west in general doesn't take your labels seriously, not just America. Or do you think it's just America stationed throughout the Near East to secure profits? Some of you would be considered white enough. But MENA has strong religious affiliations to Islam and too many people that can't pass for white? Full acceptance as whites seems impossible. If you're still going to wait on that while the west is still dropping bombs in the Near East to make money good luck.
It's sad that people who identify with a geopolitical region that has faced wars for decades still has so many people trying to believe they're white. My country alone has spent trillions alongside other western countries to exploit the Near East because many of you in "MENA" aren't white. I guess they believe if they can tell themselves they're white they can feel better about it. Ironically the same people will say blacks can only look Bantu and pigeonhole blackness to one look but will swear that their brown or black looking cousins, mothers and fathers are white. Hahahahaha!
hahah wtf are you talking about ?? Are you going to question my own skin color ?? sorry for you but it's white but a white skin doesn't imply being automatically related to europeans wtf North africans and Middle easterners are proud people we don't care about europeans or complexed blacks like you we enslaved both of you and we controlled parts of SSA and europe at the same time We certainly don't care about any of your opinions We are our own people stop having this childish and dichotomical view of ethnicities there is not just white and black in this world ....Afro-americans have clearly been heavily brainwashed it's crazy.
Tragic mulatto derangement syndrome, wrapped in a failed sense of self.. EGO
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
the Bovidian phase (IVth millenium - to the middle of the IIth millenium BCE) where we see the intrusion of caucasoid populations coming from the north into the sahara ( Tassili ) but they were still surrounded by melanoderm populations who were more numerous. It was a pastoralist society : Scene camp Iheren (Tassili n'Ajjer), recent phase of the bovidian style (statement J. Colombel).
1) how are you determining populations were Caucasoid?
2) you said "intrusion of caucasoid populations coming from the north into the sahara" - was this population from the North always from Africa or was there a time they that they were living outside of Africa?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Vast majority of coastal N Afrs are either white, near white, off-white.
Morocco Algeria Tunisia . . brown people
Nassbean, would the above people self identify as white in your opinion? Obviously they are not going to say "Hi I'm Habib, I'm Off-White" and they are darker than "Off-white".
When I say we're "white" I'm not using the american label but I say "white" in contrast to black africans but I do not imply that we're europeans or that we look like them
'
Yes, as I explained elsewhere, in Africa today as documented for at least the last 1300 years white is used for the 'racial colour' of N Afrs. In ancient Egypt black and red were the two colour categories BLACK = Egyptians and Sudanese RED = Libyans and Levantines
We don't know any brown or yellow 'racial colour'.
We do not confuse N Afrs w/Euros, whom Atlantic speakers call Red Ears. We never call Berbers or Arabs red ears.
African blx do tend to label 'mulattos' and even some Blk Americans white, as older Kenyans call Obama mzungu.
No reason we of Africa should adapt EuroAmerican colour definitions for ourselves as if we are their children or pets, we name ourselves.
North Africans are whites as they have been for over 1300 years.
How old is the USA? No modern NW European countries were around in the 7th century
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
I can't find the post I made on * Phoenicians paying the Afri to lease land for their "New City" * the original Haratin before Gnawa admixture and confusion * Masmuda as white to themselves but black to Mizrahhi 'Arabs' * Leo Aficanus on same origin of Berber & Blacks from Hham * and I wish I could remember what else
and I had this pic to show sports teams pic spam is stupid Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Vast majority of coastal N Afrs are either white, near white, off-white.
Morocco Algeria Tunisia . . brown people
Nassbean, would the above people self identify as white in your opinion? Obviously they are not going to say "Hi I'm Habib, I'm Off-White" and they are darker than "Off-white".
When I say we're "white" I'm not using the american label but I say "white" in contrast to black africans but I do not imply that we're europeans or that we look like them
'
Yes, as I explained elsewhere, in Africa today as documented for at least the last 1300 years white is used for the 'racial colour' of N Afrs. In ancient Egypt black and red were the two colour categories BLACK = Egyptians and Sudanese RED = Libyans and Levantines
We don't know any brown or yellow 'racial colour'.
We do not confuse N Afrs w/Euros, whom Atlantic speakers call Red Ears. We never call Berbers or Arabs red ears.
African blx do tend to label 'mulattos' and even some Blk Americans white, as older Kenyans call Obama mzungu.
No reason we of Africa should adapt EuroAmerican colour definitions for ourselves as if we are their children or pets, we name ourselves.
North Africans are whites as they have been for over 1300 years.
How old is the USA? No modern NW European countries were around in the 7th century
Black wasn't used for egyptians it was used for nubians and some deities as a symbol of fertility
egyptians were represented with a reddish skin tone :
(from the tomb of Khuwy, Vth dynasty)
(here prince Kawab from the IVth dynasty) :
(Ptah Hotep, Vth dynasty) :
(Here you can see the contrast between Ramses II and nubians ) :
their reddish skin tone was similar to the modern egyptian one :
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
the Bovidian phase (IVth millenium - to the middle of the IIth millenium BCE) where we see the intrusion of caucasoid populations coming from the north into the sahara ( Tassili ) but they were still surrounded by melanoderm populations who were more numerous. It was a pastoralist society : Scene camp Iheren (Tassili n'Ajjer), recent phase of the bovidian style (statement J. Colombel).
1) how are you determining populations were Caucasoid?
2) you said "intrusion of caucasoid populations coming from the north into the sahara" - was this population from the North always from Africa or was there a time they that they were living outside of Africa?
It depends in some contexts these pastoralists depicted themselves with a white skin color and "caucasoid" traits while they depicted their black neighbours with a darker skin color and different traits. There is also craniometry based on the remains we have ofc (all of these informations come from the book of Gabriel Camps about berbers that I have here)
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
All you got is stupid picture spam The Book of Gates divides Egyptians and Sudanese as blacks Libyans and Levantines as reds
Read the 4 lines of hieroglyphics above Hor's head
Hagan's Northafrocentric propaganda is clouding your ability to reason.
You don't want to discuss and learn you want to win a debate no matter what My goal is authenticity where ever it lays. To whit I have post both pro&con on you white africans All you do is keep keep denying black roles using severe tunnel vision
What's the use you won't even listen ponder and analyze you immediately go into knee jerk reaction
You act like your pic spam is all the artwork from 3000 years of AE history
We did the pic count thing a decade ago here. There are tons of black imgs.
You act just like the westerners who refuse you being white when you refuse the AEs own self definition as black
Just as you aren't white like northern Europeans AEs weren't black like many western Africans Yet you are white and AEs are black
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: All you got is stupid picture spam The Book of Gates divides Egyptians and Sudanese as blacks Libyans and Levantines as reds
Read the 4 lines of hieroglyphics above Hor's head
Hagan's Northafrocentric propaganda is clouding your ability to reason.
You don't want to discuss and learn you want to win a debate no matter what My goal is authenticity where ever it lays. To whit I have post both pro&con on you white africans All you do is keep keep denying black roles using severe tunnel vision
What's the use you won't even listen ponder and analyze you immediately go into knee jerk reaction
You act like your pic spam is all the artwork from 3000 years of AE history
We did the pic count thing a decade ago here. There are tons of black imgs.
You act just like the westerners who refuse you being white when you refuse the AEs own self definition as black
Just as you aren't white like northern Europeans AEs weren't black like many western Africans Yet you are white and AEs are black
These are not egyptians but nubians from the land of Wawat near the egyptian border while the black nubians are from the land of kush further south.
You don't teach me anything here because I have a book who speak about it :
And I'm not racist or "-centric" I'm only focusing on scientific facts
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Watch out you guys herded goats My people herded cows and are still noted for it to this day. We were the pastoralists and we made the art
oh boy this all so stupid and useless but mgmnt is allowing it I don't know why
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Oh like you're the only one with a book SMH
Kushites, not Nubians, aren't the only ones open your eyes
Quit dancing and hiding you can't read the primary document
Again translate the hieroglyphic above Hor's head that is if you can
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] All you got is stupid picture spam The Book of Gates divides Egyptians and Sudanese as blacks Libyans and Levantines as reds
No it doesn't the Egyptians did use racial terms like "blacks" and "reds" That is not in your own translations nor other translations, stop the nonsense
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
You can't read hierglyphics either so shut up and don't bother rehashing what we did time and time again about the book of gates
Egyptology forum is abandoned
Mgmnt doesn't care its slid to the level of Deshret
I give up
Negroes whites and fake blx run ES now and non-african descent people come here with no inherent interest in Africana they just want to beef with trolls because its just academics to them because they aren't african no skin off their teeth
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Ase: Craniometrics are important because they give us an idea on the morphology of the face. It can be used to understand a person's phenotype/race, but not their genetic closeness to someone else. Blacks with albinism are still black. Igbo with skin as light as yours if not lighter are still black. Why? Because the morphology of the face is indicative of their race. Hair color and texture as physical features can indicate blacks but even when they deviate from textures that are found mostly in blacks it doesn't change their status as black people. No matter the hair texture, blacks face discrimination and Aboriginals can be black with (naturally) looser blonde hair for goodness sake. The Upper Egyptians were also more inclined to utilize darker tones for their skin compared to more northern peoples.
Yes but what you still don't understand is that when it comes to "the morphology of the face" horners are closer to eurasians than to west africans like you :
an ethiopian woman like this :
is craniometrically closer to this :
than this :
The Ethiopian is still black, even if you want to argue that some blacks are morphologically closer to non-blacks. I have no idea why you're trying to rationalize race. It's not about it making rational sense, it's about telling people what they are to the west so that they don't have their heads in the sand like your dumbass, thinking they're white while their nations get colonized and bombed to smithereens.
Also: the Ancient Upper Egyptians were between an Ethiopian and Nubian. Which means relative to the Ethiopian they looked even MORE like people you already said were black and faced discrimination in Egypt.
quote:
quote:
Looks like mostly nasal values. I take it you've got something else?
Lol charlie bass the same guy who used the nubian mummy of Maiherpri as a proof that ancient egyptians were black ...I will certainly not trust any of his claims that's for sure.
I see you have no response to the methodological shortcomings mentioned. He could believe the moon is made of cheese for all I care. Unless you can prove what was measured wasn't mostly focused on nasal metrics GTFOH! Read those metrics and explain how they're not mostly focused on nasal values.
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Ase: Yes, they were closer to Nubians in appearance than Ethiopians, you know...those people that you said were blacks but at war with Egyptians for being black? That nonsense you still haven't proved happened yet? Yes that. Notice the LOWER Egyptians cluster more with modern North Africans and Europeans though. The Lower Egyptians are far more likely to have shared your phenotype than the Upper Egyptians. Some studies show Abydos to be intermediate of lower and upper Egypt Abydos had Northerners that moved in during the late predynastic to early dynastic. These samples aren't really reflective of how non-mixed Upper Egyptians (that created the dominant culture) looked.
Why are you lying ? Where did I say that egyptians were at war with nubians simply because they were black ???
So you didn't say the following?
quote:and egyptians discriminated black people :
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Ase:Yes it does work that way if the "bag" is race. If this weren't so you wouldn't have multi trillion dollar institutions and nations having fought the colonize and subjugate the Ethiopian people because they were black. We wouldn't have had racist Egyptologists cast the Ethiopian looking Upper Egyptians as black savages that were civilized by Norther Lower Egyptians.
lol they colonized the whole world not only SSA stop playing the victim.
They did colonize the world, but they tried colonizing Ethiopia like the rest of Africa on the belief it was black. TODAY the western world will still openly tell you ALL of Sub Saharan Africa is black. Even YOU sit there and say "Sub Sahara" and then pivot to exclude the Horn when you realize you done fuuuucked up! The west's very hatred of the Nubian/Ethiopian phenotype in Upper Egypt as black helped popularized the dynastic race attitudes among early Egyptologists. They would go on to say that the non-black northerners civilized the south.
quote: Horners are not your people and do not bring pseudo-scientific claims from the XIXth century so it supports your agenda.
Saying race is a social construct is not psuedo science. Saying horners are judged as black racially is an accurate description of where they are classified socially. It's not about whether people want to claim them or not. Race isn't something we chose in the first place. It's a label forced upon you at birth.
quote:lol it still doesn't change the fact that upper egyptians didn't have a black phenotype you will not reduce all the african diversity because of your one drop rule ...
Like I said: In the west Ethiopians are generally considered black. Not just in America.
quote:in america people like Rachel Dolezal can be seen as black
Then why did she change her natural features? Because she could never pass for black the way she was born. To even TRY to promote herself as a "white passing black" she had to regularly alter her complexion and hair, and pictured herself with a black man she alluded to skeptical journalists had been her father.
quote: LMAO West africans like you have phenotypes that don't exist in the horn or in ancient Egypt stop being delusional.
All blacks aren't going to have the same phenotype. Saying West African features aren't as often found in the horn doesn't mean that one group is black and not the other. It means there's a lot of phenotypic diversity among black people.
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Ase: North Africa had More of the ol' goalpost shift eh? I wasn't talking about ALL ancient North African civilizations or all North African people. I said some were black, and people with a black phenotype DID do more than just be oppressed in North Africa, they were the founder of at least one major civilization: Ancient Egypt.
LOL I just posted tons of north african and haratin results...and as I've said these black "berbers" have a big ssa component that is not indigenous to north africa ofc you avoided it.
Because it hasn't shit to do with my point dumbass. Explain how saying "modern black berbers have a big SSA component that's not indigenous" has shit to do with the fact that a black phenotype existed in ancient Egypt.
quote: If these blacks are indigenous why they don't score as much north african ancestry as us ? why they are not close to guanches like us ?? the answer is simple : they are the product of the recent slave trade.
I could debate this, but I'm not going to waste my time taking detours on irrelevant BS. How is this relevant? My only point was that a black phenotype existed ancient times. If it was the result of people from SSA coming into north Africa or if it was always there and the people were mostly related to North Africans, the phenotype is still black and that's really the only thing I was arguing in the first place.
quote: And no blacks were not the founders of Ancient Egypt only afrocentrists like yourself believe in this.
Lol no.
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Ase: Let's take the image at face value for a moment: Why are the West Africans and the Hadza people more closely related North Africans than South Africans? And...am I seeing the colors wrong or are those Somali and Afar next to Taforalt? And are those three closer to North Africans than West Africans? Uh... you can't notice how this thing shows that the idea of race as a genetic construct makes no sense? There are blacks that are more closely related genetically to other races than each other all over the place. That wouldn't happen if genetics were interchangeable with race.
here the south africans are represented by khoisans not the modern bantus of south africa.
So what? They're still black people. My point that blacks can be more closely related to people of other races than each other still stands.
quote:And again you don't understand if race was only a social construct why don't we all plot in the same place ?
Huh? You may as well ask why cows lactate when they give birth. Proving it does or doesn't happen is not necessary for us to prove race is a social construct.
quote: Why do west africans form their own homogeneous group? Why do horners (who have a big eurasian component and look different from people like you) form also their own group ?
Again saying "West Africans are a homogenous group" does not change the fact that West Africans are more closely related to non-Africans than they are to other black Africans. Blacks simply cannot be more closely related to non-blacks than they are each other if this was a genetic construct. That's not how the concept of genetic races works. Whites should always cluster with whites before all non whites, Blacks should genetically cluster with all blacks. That doesn't happen. West Africans are closer to non-Africans than South Africans. West Africans are closer to North Africans and Europeans than they are to Aboriginal Australians.
quote:Wtf are you talking about ?? I live in the West (Europe) and no one would ever put negritos or aboriginal australians in the same bag as congolese or senegalese
I live in the west too. And while people don't argue they're the same, they've been historically judged as black. You may live in Europe but you are still very naive. It's almost pitiful assuming whites really told you they're not black. It'd be EASY for some to lie when they're that stand to make trillions off Australian land. They're not trying to displace newly "discovered" indigenous people for their own ends. They've done that already.
Rather, I'll go by what white Australians that came from multiple areas in Europe did once they got there, and what the rest of the west allowed them to do. They all got together and decided Aboriginals to be black. When truly faced with blacks in Australia the record speaks for itself.
...As for Negrito.....what they've thought is literally in the name NEGRITO. There's just some levels of stupidity I simply cannot entertain today.
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Ase: Answer the above or shut up already. I hate when people pick and choose when to be "defenders of culture and heritage" while overlooking the modern people in their own communities making millions if not billions of dollars off other people's cultures. (Non-black) MENA has numerous examples of people that make a ton of money this way that don't do shit for our people. And it's not just people from MENA that can get away with that. People from all over the world do it. The Koreans' pop music takes heavily from black culture and for decades they've been trying to take over the material culture black hair care industry. Making cheap dupes of our products to force buy outs, or to put us out of business. Wealthy whites have fought hard to own the commercial rights to our culture. Who studies another culture and uses vast time and/or resources own it? Many people apparently, if the people negatively affected are black.
LMAO so your culture is hip-hop and twerk ??
We're behind a lot of "pop music" today. Popular Kpop music is imitating white imitators of our music like Nsync. We also made rock music, Reggae and jazz. That's our recent stuff. We don't need the Phonecians, most people on planet Earth don't know who the hell that is. And yes we have hip hop. And for all the complaining you're doing about it why are people from MENA fighting so hard to own it and make billions? You call yourself a defender of heritage, so how come you've never said anything about people from MENA being very heavily embedded in our entertaiment industry? Something that's been going on long before hip hop (or twerking). If you asked people what a Phonecian is, they'd guess it's an indie band or casino.But if you play rock they know what that is. Micheal Jackson, they know who the fuck that is. Prince? Yup. Reggae? Jazz? All day. Don't throw stones from a glass house If you're going to be a bigot and say I need to be validated by the world. If you do, you'd better at least put up and tell me some shit the world has validated you for doing. The world don't even know who the Phonecians are.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Oh like you're the only one with a book SMH
Kushites, not Nubians, aren't the only ones open your eyes
Quit dancing and hiding you can't read the primary document
Again translate the hieroglyphic above Hor's head that is if you can
four nubians from the Land of Kush (south of the second cataract) and four nubians from the Land of wawat (between the second and first cataract) there are no egyptians on your pic
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
Hey Nass can you tell me where in Egypt the material culture outlined in the photos came from. They'd better not be from northern Egypt Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: You can't read hierglyphics either so shut up
Again, I can go to the same translations resources you can, Gardiner, etc but what I can do or cannot do irrelevant management of this forum will be informed of this fraud you are trying to perpetrate that the Egyptians had racial terms for "blacks" and "reds" applied them to people and that they used them in the Book of Gates. It's a LIE
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: four nubians from the Land of Kush (south of the second cataract) and four nubians from the Land of wawat (between the second and first cataract) there are no egyptians on your pic [/QB]
seriously?, you are trying to shoot yourself in the foot now?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
No that is not what the text above Hor's head says
You can't even the script next to each set of persons that spells their ethnicity
Quit dancing and regurgitating Northafrocentricism
Translate the the 4 lines of text above Hor's head if you even know who Hor is
No Egyptians in the tomb painting of a sacred Pharaonic ressurection book?
What a laughing stock, can't take you even a smidgeon seriously
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: four nubians from the Land of Kush (south of the second cataract) and four nubians from the Land of wawat (between the second and first cataract) there are no egyptians on your pic
seriously?, you are trying to shoot yourself in the foot now?
I think it's worse. The guy has shot himself in the face in his attempts to spite us!
By the way, note how Nasbean ignores my posts that totally debunk his claims.
quote:Originally posted by Ase: You mean his likely black ancestors. In some cases we can have ancestors of different races, but saying people can have "black heritage" gives ideas of genetic relationship and that may confuse lurkers. I'd like to get people's thoughts on what language would be best to communicate race is not genetic but social. But anyway, I tried showing him a climate map of ancient North Africa when Egyptian civilization formed. It was more Sahel like. It's conditions only became more like modern north Africa 4,000 years ago. He responded by giving me an earlier map of what scientists described as a temporary dry period in North Africa. Not sure if he ever got around to explaining how a Sahel climate would've created a barrier when many blacks live in it today. I guess they'll believe anything to scrub blacks out of North African history.
But that's exactly it! All these peoples of North Africa who may not look black DO have black ancestry! How do you explain the predominant paternal clade among Berbers being E-M81?
But it gets even worse him...
^ The reason why not only modern North Africans but Western Eurasians e.g. Middle-Easterners and Europeans cluster close to Africans in general is because they ALL have recent black African ancestry!
^ And that is just the paternal clade alone, namely E1b1b. This doesn't include African maternal clades which are prevalent in the light areas where the paternal clades are not prevalent. Hence African maternal lineages are prevalent in the Iberian peninsula where they are not in the Balkan and they are also prevalent in Arabia some of which predates the slave trade. In fact genetic studies for the past several decades have confirmed that as much as ONE-THIRD of Europeans have black ancestry dating as far back as the Neolithic if not Bronze Age!
And here you have so-called 'Mediterranean race' nationalists ethnically divide the E1b1b subclades in Africa on ethnic lines.
The Euronuts are so crazy they attempt to divorce E1b1b from Africa and claim it as 'Eurasian' even though the predominant paternal clade in Sub-Sahara is its sister clade E1b1a, so now some have attempted to say the entire E macroclade is Eurasian, so Bantus and Guinea West Africans are Eurasian too! LMAO
So where does that leave Nasbean and his fantasy white Berbers who have nothing to do with black Africa even though they live on that continent?? Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
I will not repeat myself again ...It's not a coincidence if she still focus on ethiopians because it's the only detail that can maybe create a link between AE and SSA but again craniometry won't be helpful when it comes to features, skin color or hair type. Period.
This is how ancient upper egyptians looked like :
Of course she never brings any genetic evidence because she knows damn well that genetics doesn't support her claims quite the opposite. She dare to speak about replacements,mixing,asiatics, ethiopians but where is the genetic reality of all of this ? why do modern upper egyptians don't show all those admixtures ? Why the ancient egyptian samples we have show even less ssa admixtures than modern egyptians ? "not enough samples" "asiatic settlers in abusir"....yeah sure.
What about reconstructions ? --> "fake made by eurocentrists" or " represent asiatic settlers but the founders were black" LOL seriously it's a clear waste of time debating with these people I'm only here for my own entertainment...hopefully no one outside this site take you seriously and historians/egyptologists already know the truth so I don't care about the opinion of a bunch of complexed low IQ afro-americans.
look at these degenerates whorshipping our history :
Claiming all civilizations except their own...lmao and after that they dare to say "we're not obsessed with NA" " we are proud of our west african roots" yeah sure that's what we can see here XD
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Oooh that Northafrocentric is making me sooooo mad I'm loosing it to a Umar Tall rage and I apologize
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
Honestly I was expecting strong and concrete arguments from this djehuty especially when he told me that he will write me later but all I saw was even more ridiculous than what ASE or Tukuler post. This guy clearly don't really understand genetics ...yes keep believing that e-m81 is ssa and that e1b1b is ssa lmao
Even if all our haplogroups were A and L2 this guy still don't understand that it means nothing when it comes to autosomal dna or even phenotypes. He also wasn't able to contradict all the dna results I've posted : Where is the famous "arab" component ? Where is the famous big "european" component ? Why the so called "black berbers" have less north african ancestry than the white ones ? Why berbers are close to guanches while haratin are not ?
I also posted tons of depictions but the only explanation I got from afrocentrists here is "roman mixed with NAs" "arab mixed" loool where are your evidence for this ???
Lol go claim the moors and ancient egyptians I'm simply an arab mixed with euro slaves hahaha
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Quit trying to cover over your inabilty to read hieroglyphics with your Northafrocentric myopic focus and Nubians Kushites and Black Americans
Nope not letting you weasel your way out Anybody following you can see your inadequacy
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Be quiet. I did my own translation, you and everybody else knows it. You don't know how to read hieroglyphics at all.
Punos Askia and Maestro all witnessed it and if honest will recognize you are the fraud. Only staff solidarity will save you from being reprimanded for lowering the standards of Egyptology to the chaos of Deshret So go ahead do your worst I stand my ground and I won't back down, there ain't no easy way out!
The proof is in the archive where I spanked and sent you to bed w/o supper on this but you love to be humiliated so carry on
Book of gates isn't the only place. Sabalour offered it from a different sacred Pharaonic afterlife ressurection book
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: You can't read hierglyphics either so shut up
Again, I can go to the same translations resources you can, Gardiner, etc but what I can do ot cannot do irrelevant management of this forum will be informed of this fraud you are trying to perpetrate that the Egyptians had racial terms for "blacks" and "reds" applied them to people and that they used them in the Book of Gates. It's a LIE
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
four nubians from the Land of Kush (south of the second cataract) and four nubians from the Land of wawat (between the second and first cataract) there are no egyptians on your pic
You might want to retract this, calling the Egyptians here nubians from the Land of wawat
This is the book of Gates, Hour Five it always has the same four starting on lower row "Rmt" (Egyptians), "Aamu" (Asiatics),
"Nehesu" (Nubians), "Themehu" (Libyans),
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Yes but what you still don't understand is that when it comes to "the morphology of the face" horners are closer to eurasians than to west africans like you :
an ethiopian woman like this :
is craniometrically closer to this :
than this :
That's why your datas contradict your statements not mine.
Again, metric data is of little relevance to genetics. By your same argument the West African woman above is craniometrically closer to the Andamanese woman below.
That does not mean they are closely related genetically.
I already explained that to you..
By the euclidian graph above Sub-Saharan Africans are genetically closer to Melanesians than they are to North Africans and Nubians are genetically closer to Indians than to Egyptians. It makes absolutely no sense.
If you're going to use cranial features to assess genetic relations then it is best to use non-metric traits of the skull, as these show an actual population genetic link. But I take it you won't like the results.
quote:Also where do you see black upper egyptians here ?? : [more straw-spam of unpainted statues or statues that have lost most of their paint]
Don't play dumb, we've already shown you many portraits of ancient Upper Egyptians with their original painted skin complexions still on.
Now I know you are trolling.
quote:Why are you lying ? Where did I say that egyptians were at war with nubians simply because they were black ??? Egyptians had multiple ennemies including nubians and we clearly see a huge differences between how they portrayed themselves and how they portrayed nubians. Again stop your propaganda upper egyptians were not black and didn't look like horners they looked like modern upper egyptians :
The first picture is of Upper Egyptians but the one below it is of Lower Egyptians, I believe. You keep saying Upper Egyptians were not black to the contrary. Also modern Upper Egyptians are not exactly the same as their ancient ancestors due to centuries of foreign migrations including the Arabs. Funny how your claim contradicts the recent Nature study of the Fayum mummies which claim modern Egyptians show significant 'Sub-Saharan' ancestry compared to the mummies they sampled.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Quit trying to cover over your inabilty to read hieroglyphics with your Northafrocentric myopic focus and Nubians Kushites and Black Americans
Nope not letting you weasel your way out Anybody following you can see your inadequacy
Who said I can read hieroglypics ?? It doesn't matter in this case all my books say the same thing so I don't see what's your point here ? As lioness have said egyptians didn't have terms like "black people" or "white people" stop with your anachronisms your propaganda won't work with me
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Yes but what you still don't understand is that when it comes to "the morphology of the face" horners are closer to eurasians than to west africans like you :
an ethiopian woman like this :
is craniometrically closer to this :
than this :
That's why your datas contradict your statements not mine.
Again, metric data is of little relevance to genetics. By your same argument the West African woman above is craniometrically closer to the Andamanese woman below.
That does not mean they are closely related genetically.
I already explained that to you..
By the euclidian graph above Sub-Saharan Africans are genetically closer to Melanesians than they are to North Africans and Nubians are genetically closer to Indians than to Egyptians. It makes absolutely no sense.
If you're going to use cranial features to assess genetic relations then it is best to use non-metric traits of the skull, as these show an actual population genetic link. But I take it you won't like the results.
A big thanks to you because you just debunked ASE's argument about ancient upper egyptians looking like ethiopians simply based on craniometry...so we both agree that craniometry means nothing when it comes to phenotypes and dna.
As for upper egyptians being mostly arab you have of course no evidence for this while I posted evidence of the impact of the trans-saharan slave trade you were of course not able to contradict them.
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
He's saying THAT the specific graph you posted (that is mainly focused on nasal values) is worthless. Not that ALL craniometry is invalid.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Helene Hagan taught Amazigh Voice activist to steal Ancient Egypt culture for coastal North Africans when everyone else knows Can you spell overcompensating for an inferiority complex by ppl under domination by Phoenicians Greeks ItalyRomans Visigoths ByzantineRomans Arabs Ottomans and the French/Spanish/Italians.
Note AE didn't see anything of value to either trade or conquer.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Nice try but epic L fail.
The text reads black community red community (one of the exceedingly rare times community is used for reds)
not race not people anywhere in the passage theLioness, knows that, she played you for a sucker
You admit you can't even read the primary document for yourself yet keep babbling
Black and red are the oldest colour designations in recorded African history Arabic writers used Black and white colour designations for the two reis of Africa's people. Nowadays we use red black and white for the 3 major divisions. Pending usage a red can be Fulani African ppls or European yte ppls.
This failure will haunt you the rest of your life as long as you remain an eyes shut tight fingers plugged in ears refuse to take time to digest the whole picture anti-black racist Northafrocentic taunting Black Americans while letting white American Shriners, British Israelites etc., off the hook for stealing Moorish or Jewish culture.
Neither you or your book authors know what the hieroglyphic says. Worse yet you don't even want to know because you know it'll burst your Helene Hagan Shining Ones bubble
She said her rag should be in every African Studies dept library in universities to set the blx straight revealing her hatred and condescension toward black ppl.
A search on WorldCat find-a-book says not even one library in the whole world owns her academically useless shmatta
Hahahahahahaha
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] Nice try but epic L fail.
The text reads black community red community
not race not people anywhere in the passage
stop the foolishness a community is a group of people
"black community" is a common term in America and it means "dark skinned people of African descent"
So now you are trying to manipulate the Egyptian text to say mean "dark skinned people of African descent"
and you do the same semantic racialization tricks with Manilius in an attempt to that text instead of describing gradations of skin tone alone is also classifying (your) 2 part racial duality of "black" and "white" which it is not
___________________________________ Book of Gates: Hour Five
“Horus says to the creatures of Ra who dwell in Kemet and in Deshret ‘Magical protection be over you, O creatures of Ra, who have come into being from the Great One who is at the head of heaven. Let there be breath to your nostrils, and let your linen wrappings be loosened. You are the tears of the eye of my splendour in your name of Reth. Mighty of issue you have come into being in your name of Aamu; Sekhmet has created them, and it is she who delivers (avenges) their souls. I masturbated (to produce you), and I was content with the hundreds of thousands (of beings) who came forth from me in your name of Nehesu; Horus made them to come into being, and it is he who avengeth their souls. I sought out mine Eye, and you came into being in your name of Themenu; Sekhmet has created them, and she avenges their souls.”
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Oh go run tell daddy uncle and cousin
Show me the word people or person in the text
Too bad you can't drudge up the imgs from all the times I smacked yo asz about this your lack of reading hierglyphics
In the words of Arnold Schwartzenegger "gi gi gi git your ass to Mars" and show us all the word 'people' in the hieroglyphic texts
Now if a called you a female dog for lying that i wrote anything about blkNyte duality in that txt I'd be as wrong as you.
All these years and you still sit in your stew about this Your jealousy is so bad you want to report me for correctly translating hieroglphics But you have no report threat for all the breach of forum decorum by Nassbean
We're not talking American terminology We're reading Ancient Egyptian text
Your hatred and dishonesty shows in not accepting the facts and precisioning yourself the way I did when you showed me the actual Ain Beida mosaics and I immediately retracted my error though I'd only seen the stamps so my conclusion was wrong not backed by primary artifacts
That's what an honest scholar does Admits error when proven Adopts and spreads the newly revealed fact
Why? cos not out to win a debate goal is an authentic Africana neither blackwashed whitewashed or berberwashed personal propaganda
See here the AEL word for community (last paragraph 3rd sentence) and find it in Book of Gates 4:5
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: I will not repeat myself again ...It's not a coincidence if she still focus on ethiopians because it's the only detail that can maybe create a link between AE and SSA but again craniometry won't be helpful when it comes to features, skin color or hair type. Period.
Generally Upper Egyptians depicted themselves with skin colors in range for being deemed black so that's not a problem. Hair colors and texture don't matter as much either since you can be a blonde loose haired aboriginal and still be cast as black. I didn't bring up Ethiopians to argue they are a genetic link between SSA and Upper Egyptians of ancient times. I was saying that if someone wants to know what Upper Egyptians looked like, a modern Ethiopian is a good approximation.
quote:Of course she never brings any genetic evidence because she knows damn well that genetics doesn't support her claims quite the opposite.
Genetics can neither confirm or disprove what I'm talking about. Studying the gender identity of Caitylyn Jenner would be equally as relavant. Race is not a genetic construct so why would I use it? You tried (and failed) to post graphs that proved races existed, and I demonstrated that if anything they show the opposite. Why go through all the extra effort to discuss genetics to someone who barely has an elementary understanding of how they work, when I don't really have to?
quote:She dare to speak about replacements,mixing,asiatics, ethiopians but where is the genetic reality of all of this ? why do modern upper egyptians don't show all those admixtures ? Why the ancient egyptian samples we have show even less ssa admixtures than modern egyptians ? "not enough samples" "asiatic settlers in abusir"....yeah sure.
Um Abusir is right next to Faiyum. Anyone indigenous to that region in the predynastic was Lower Egyptian. It's been known that Northerners were racially different a long time ago so why would I care? The race of Upper Egyptians is already known. The only thing we don't know if the Upper Egyptian blacks were closer to SSA or not.
And we aren't going to know that with selecting Northern Egyptian samples from a location that wasn't very populated until the late period (as per admission of the researchers), had a bunch of non Egyptian names in the graves (As per their admission) and dates after mass immigration THE RESEARCHERS said happened from Canaan in the second millennium B.C.
quote:What about reconstructions ?
Cite the reconstructions you're talking about? Probably not this guy:
quote:Claiming all civilizations except their own...lmao
Most blacks are not saying Egyptian culture is the same as their culture. Of all the pictures you can find of blacks, you're focusing on handful of individuals with no socioeconomic impact to MENA. Why? Because you want to disparage the majority of blacks who aren't doing that because they state the AE phenotype is black. Blacks here not only don't dress up in Egyptian costumes to deny their west African heritage, They also mock and ostracize people who might do that openly as "Hoteps." We'll nip the most extremist expressions of it in the bud for you. But what the fuck do you do in return?
You guys LET people from MENA come to make billions off my culture every year. We REALLY now have people trying own something my people made. But that's okay, we're just supposed to stay silent and let everyone take money out our culture. They don't have to do shit for the community. And worse we're then supposed to just let the same bigots from MENA bitch and whine about our "global presence." It's surprising they even can hear themselves talk shit over the loud suckling their billionaires make while feeding off the tit of our culture. All that money they make from that very global cultural presence they saying doesn't exist! But what's that? Oh no Darius tattooed a fucking ankh to his arm? BOO fucking HOO! A couple of black people online are talking about the Phonecians? Why does that concern you when the mass majority of people from ALL races don't even know who they were? Poor baby thinks his little problems are in ballpark of what wealthy people from MENA have done to our economy by taking our culture for decades.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
I don't see your translation in this thread so you have nothing on the table
What you are trying to do is imply "Kemet" means black skinned people as is what the term "black community" means
and likewise attempt to connote "Deshret" refers to "red skinned peoples"
yet in the texts are no references to skin as per these words, no context in many texts that associate these words with skin color
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
What you're suceeding in doing is the a baboon's striped bare butt putting words in my mouth to poison unsuspecting readers.
Build a strawman knock him down much easier than addressing what was actually said
And no I'm not posting my last translation for you You think you can manipulate me like I'm stupid? You just tried that mess with Brandon and it didn't work so you shut him down, a fellow staff member no less. Now you think it'll work on me? Fool's Paradise.
Find it and post it yourself, don't dictate to me Others may accept you acting like you own ES and ordering them around but I'm superior to you
And YOU can't spitefully delete me breaking your teeth here on Egyptology like you picked on Brandon for no reason at all. So run go tell your fellow mgmnt personel on me, if you're lucky Askia himself will delete my posts and ban me after 16 years of loving devotion and academic contribution to EgyptSearch And if I'm banned just go on and permanently delete my account cos I'm not going to stand here while you or anybody else not Afrikan effs with my continental heritage from Dakar to Caseyr, Cape Agulhas to Tunis.
Back to target Wrong they're not along the Nile or in the Desert they're in the Duat (afterworld where the dead reside) That's why the AEL text author wrote black.community red.community That old translation is poor
See here the AEL word for community (last paragraph 3rd sentence) and find it in Book of Gates 4:5
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
This is how ancient upper egyptians looked like :
If this is who Nassbean is saying the Egyptians looked like so why are yall complaining as per what he is saying about Egypt?
Aren't these reasonable examples?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Honestly I was expecting strong and concrete arguments from this djehuty especially when he told me that he will write me later but all I saw was even more ridiculous than what ASE or Tukuler post. This guy clearly don't really understand genetics ...yes keep believing that e-m81 is ssa and that e1b1b is ssa lmao
When did I tell you anything about when I'd write you?? I respond whenever I can. What exactly was "ridiculous" about what I wrote?? I used your own data to debunk your claims! Apparently it is YOU who doesn't understand genetics as you don't even know that craniometrics have no basis in genetic relations. LOL Tell me then if E1b1b is not SSA in origin then what is it? How is its sister clade E1b1a SSA but not E1b1b? You haven't even bothered addressing any of the points in my rebuttal but instead go after Ase? Even in this latest post you don't address me directly but mention my name. I hate to think that I intimidate you now do I??
quote:Even if all our haplogroups were A and L2 this guy still don't understand that it means nothing when it comes to autosomal dna or even phenotypes. He also wasn't able to contradict all the dna results I've posted : Where is the famous "arab" component ? Where is the famous big "european" component ? Why the so called "black berbers" have less north african ancestry than the white ones ? Why berbers are close to guanches while haratin are not ?
That's because you fail to understand the difference between cultural or ethnic identity and physical or genetic identity, numbskull. Berber is a linguisto-cultural group that encompasses many populations so it says nothing about the genetic nuances of these populations. I also question exactly what you consider "black Berbers" as I and other posters have shown you examples of some the people you consider to be "white Berbers" do have black peoples among them such as the Mozabite and Shlueh. So I don't know whether you are disingenuous or totally ignorant of your alleged fellow Amazigh peoples. Also, exactly what do you mean by "North African ancesty"? I take it you are referring to paternal clades if so, then E-M81 is the predominant clade in the Maghreb while E-M78 predominates in the Nile Valley. You do realize that E-M81 has a significant presence among Berber speaking Tuareg and Moors who don't look white at all but are readily identified as 'black'. Also, as I've previously shown E-M78 is found among white GREEKS, does this mean the original carriers of that clade were white?! Especially when that clade has its highest concentration and diversity in Nubia! LOL Berbers of the Western Sahara and Maghrebi coast show close affinities to the Guanches not all Berber do like the Tuareg who not only carry E-M81 but even older clades like E-M75 and I already cited a study from adhlaoui-Zid et al. that show the Berbers of Egypt have a totally different maternal ancestry from Maghrebi Berbers so no, not all Berbers are alike genetically. You're as confused as the other troll who thinks Nilo-Saharan speakers constitute a homogeneous genetic group. And the Haratin are simply a generic servile caste. I don't know of any genetic studies done on them, but I wouldn't be surprised by results showing them to be heterogeneous also as Haratin are found throughout the Amazigh speaking domain.
quote:I also posted tons of depictions but the only explanation I got from afrocentrists here is "roman mixed with NAs" "arab mixed" loool where are your evidence for this ???
You posted the typical cherry picked images of Greco-Roman Egyptians OR dynastic Egyptians that are unpainted or have their paint faded off. While we posted tons of portraits of dynastic Egyptians in their original phenotype with dark (black) complexions and all.
quote:Lol go claim the moors and ancient egyptians I'm simply an arab mixed with euro slaves hahaha
No you are just a confused white North African in denial of his black ancestry.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] What you're suceeding in doing is the a baboons stiped bare butt
And YOU can't spitefully delete me breaking your teeth here on Egyptology so run go tell your fellow mgmnt personel on me, if you're lucky Askia will delete my posts and ban me after 16 years of loving devotion and academic contribution to EgyptSearch
you're the one that started with threats of report to management, so don't try to play vic
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
KweiKwai
Ain't no vic here unless you mean victorious Victor, which I am again, naturally.
This has gone so far south due to your cattiness that its just personal chit chat now
so what ? this a throwaway excessive pg count thread anyhow
More 'community' for you baby Please transcribe the second sentence onto this thread thank you
Knowing you don't know hieroglyphics why you wanna challenge somebody who's studied them off and on for over 20 years is surely beyond reason, totally irrational.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
this guy is Khnum-Nakht :
this is a small statue of him :
and this is his coffin :
You see how dishonest she is ?
Of course she will accept this reconstruction of Khnum but strangely she will not accept those ones :
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
^^^^Damn Lioness...you kinda took an L on this..
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Everybody knows Egypt was a multi ethnic society because it was a First World type economy drawing anybody who wanted a better life the same way USA and Europe attact foreigners.
Unlike USA/Europe, AE didn't discriminate. Once nationalized a foreigner was officially Egyptian and accepted in the populace as Egyptian.
That wasn't good enough for the Meshwesh and north Mediterraneans who came to take over. Finally the Meshwesh did take over as "Libyo-Egyptians" adopting the main civilization though keeping elements of their heritage and culture.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Mr. Toomy does'nt have a coherent argument. His whole argument rests on cherry picking the "True Negro" stereotype and pretending that thats the only type of black in Africa.
Notice how he cheanges his Biodiversity eyeball anthropology standards as his agenda changes.
The Upper Egyptians display way more SSA affinities than the Tunisian...but the girl is a SSA admixed slave and the Egyptians are non Black authentic North Africans...
Mr. Toomy is so pent up with his racist North Afrocentrism he cant even argue consistantly...
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
These people descend from haratins I already explained you multiple times they are way less indigenous than the white skinned berbers :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
This is how ancient upper egyptians looked like :
If this is who Nassbean is saying the Egyptians looked like so why are yall complaining as per what he is saying about Egypt?
Aren't these reasonable examples?
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
You can try to cherry pick the lightest Fellahin or pretend that no black penetrated that magical barrier of SSA, but you're not fooling anyone. esp. not me....or any of the vets on ES for that matter..
Ta-Seti was incorporated by 1st or 2nd Dynasty Unification/state formation and though evidence exists of their influence as early as the 4th dynasty Unification, definitive proof exists for the 12th Dynasty Middle Kingdom, with full-blubery lipped True Negro Sutens.
Even worse we have Ta-Seti Aristocracy well into the New Kingdom, when some of them slipped up and used their Neheshy names...
Their influence extends farther that that too...If you want to play games...
Your smoke and mirrors might work for coastal North Africa but we can slap you down on Egypt.
I already spun you into a web with the Tunisian girl, and the brown berbers you were forced to admit were isolated and authentic...
So go ahead keep it up Mr. Toomy....keep being disrespectful, This is'nt forum biodiversity or historum...
So the ball is in your court...
Ill await you next move.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: [QB] this guy is Khnum-Nakht :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] Mr. Toomy does'nt have a coherent argument. His whole argument rests on cherry picking the "True Negro" stereotype and pretending that thats the only type of black in Africa.
Notice how he cheanges his Biodiversity eyeball anthropology standards as his agenda changes.
The Upper Egyptians display way more SSA affinities than the Tunisian...but the girl is a SSA admixed slave and the Egyptians are non Black authentic North Africans...
Mr. Toomy is so pent up with his racist North Afrocentrism he cant even argue consistantly...
strangely you avoided this post of me :
"white/leuco berbers are not indigenous" ok then explain this :
we used the same G25 model. Here the result of a tunisian haratin :
I'm mainly north african/berber while he's mainly SSA ...and people here said I was dishonest/racist/anti-black. Sure.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Nassbean: [QB] this guy is Khnum-Nakht :
No, this is Nakht-ankh
Yes my bad I didn't read correctly the legend of the pic but the coffin I posted is his coffin
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: You can try to cherry pick the lightest Fellahin or pretend that no black penetrated that magical barrier of SSA, but you're not fooling anyone. esp. not me....or any of the vets on ES for that matter..
Ta-Seti was incorporated by 1st or 2nd Dynasty Unification/state formation and though evidence exists of their influence as early as the 4th dynasty Unification, definitive proof exists for the 12th Dynasty Middle Kingdom, with full-blubery lipped True Negro Sutens.
Even worse we have Ta-Seti Aristocracy well into the New Kingdom, when some of them slipped up and used their Neheshy names...
Their influence extends farther that that too...If you want to play games...
Your smoke and mirrors might work for coastal North Africa but we can slap you down on Egypt.
I already spun you into a web with the Tunisian girl, and the brown berbers you were forced to admit were isolated and authentic...
So go ahead keep it up Mr. Toomy....keep being disrespectful, This is'nt forum biodiversity or historum...
So the ball is in your court...
Ill await you next move.
Yes some nubians were integrated into the egyptian society It does not contradict what I said (there were also asiatics who were integrated) but most of the ancient egyptians weren't black nor horner looking
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Nasabean Mr.Toomy Cherry picking...pretending the blubbery lipped N#gger is the only black in the world....
You mistake ES's current state for weakness...forgetting who pioneered arguments that inspired media outlets like the Max Plank to create their dog-whistling sensational articles to give ammo to you bio-diversity scholars...
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Tried this via PM a coupla hours ago. Butcha know what? I acted out publicly. As a man I must do this publicly too.
@ Djehuti I'm sorry. I owe you this apology. Surely u r a soldier in the fight for authentic Africana. Nassbean flared my temper to lash out blindly. Forgive me.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
@ Jari
Yeah, get up stand up don't give up the fight!
Even though if on any forum we acted like Nassbean they'd a canned us long ago.
Disrespecting ppl in their own house SMH
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
This is how ancient upper egyptians looked like :
Jari are these blacks?
Nassbean are these blacks?
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
You're really not goot at this Nassa, stick to smoke and mirror tactics for Coastal North Africa
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Yes some nubians were integrated into the egyptian society It does not contradict what I said (there were also asiatics who were integrated) but most of the ancient egyptians weren't black nor horner looking
Listen to what I said and let it skin in...
1)Ta-Seti was incorporated early and produced Sutens by 12th Dynasty. No Scholar familiar with Egyptian history argues against that, and Ta-Seti is standard teaching in Ancient History.
2)Ta-Seti familes from Uah-ka to Kings sons of Kush were aristocracy for thousands of Years in Upper Egypt
3) Ta-Seti influence extended far beyond native Sutens on the Throne, Ptolemaic Authorities document Ta-Seti/Neheshi rebels.
4)The last person to write Mdu-Netr were Neheshi, possibly related to Ta-Seti aristocracy..
They were more than incorporated they were full, functioning, aristocracy inhabiting the highest positions in ancient Egypt, from Nomarch, Aristocracy, to full fledged Sutens.
It just don't make no sense to me To play a game you'll never win
You want to keep play..lets go..
Your move..
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
This is how ancient upper egyptians looked like :
Jari are these blacks?
Nassbean are these blacks?
No these are not blacks to me they have nothing to with west africans culturally and genetically They also look way less ssa shifted than horners
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
Again why this Jari is avoiding my post :
"white/leuco berbers are not indigenous" ok then explain this :
we used the same G25 model. Here the result of a tunisian haratin :
I'm mainly north african/berber while he's mainly SSA ...and people here said I was dishonest/racist/anti-black. Sure.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
authentic Egyptians according to Nassabean...Shades darker than the Tunisian girl who he claims is Hertin SSA slave...
[/quote]Yes some nubians were integrated into the egyptian society It does not contradict what I said (there were also asiatics who were integrated) but most of the ancient egyptians weren't black nor horner looking [/quote]
I have'nt even posted those blubbery lipped N-gget Sutens from the 1th dynasty...or blubbery lipped Djoser
Im using folks who fit your egenda and you're still losing...
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
These people descend from haratins I already explained you multiple times they are way less indigenous than the white skinned berbers :
[QUOTE]
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Jari, can you answer if those Egyptians posted by Nassabean are blacks, I think most ES members would say they are blacks , am I wrong?
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
As I've said haratin are not indigenous compared to us :
Again why this Jari is avoiding my post :
"white/leuco berbers are not indigenous" ok then explain this :
we used the same G25 model. Here the result of a tunisian haratin :
I'm mainly north african/berber while he's mainly SSA ...and people here said I was dishonest/racist/anti-black. Sure.
Keep avoiding it Jari you're simply a dishonest member.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Yes, Of course they are...Most importantly they are what their ancestors portrayed them as...
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Jari, can you answer if those Egyptians posted by Nassabean are blacks, I think most ES members would say they are blacks , am I wrong?
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
Jari is talking like if the trans-saharan slave trade didn't happen lol
Here authentic upper egyptians representative only of ancient upper egyptians :
It's crazy to see how modern egyptians look exactly like their ancestors :
here a good artistic representation :
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
We're talking about Ancient Egypt, not Coastal North Africa, so your smoke and mirrors isnt working with me....
You tried to claim a black Tunisian(Who is featured on an Amazigh media site btw) as a SSA, but pretend the Upper Egyptians who are the same shade or darker are authentic North Africans..
Its your flimsey eye-ball biodiversity trolling at fault not me...again post where I said white berbers were not authentic Mr. Toomy.....your delusions are showing again...
We're discussing Egypt...
So Show me authentic evidence that disproves Neheshi whom you designated as the True Negros were not a vital part of Km.t as far back as early dynastic and continued with their influence well into the common era..
Ill give you an easy one...
Who were the last people to scribe Mdu-Netr on the Temple Walls of Km.T Was it you coastal North Africans who were licking the boots of the Romans, or Neheshi Blubbery lipped True Negros..
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: As I've said haratin are not indigenous compared to us :
Again why this Jari is avoiding my post :
"white/leuco berbers are not indigenous" ok then explain this :
we used the same G25 model. Here the result of a tunisian haratin :
I'm mainly north african/berber while he's mainly SSA ...and people here said I was dishonest/racist/anti-black. Sure.
Keep avoiding it Jari you're simply a dishonest member.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Nassbean, black or not?
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
This moron is trying to discredit the Ancient Egyptians African heritage by spamming f*@cking Black Egyptians!
Guys this thread has become a sh!tshow! We are going around in circles! WOULD SOMEONE JUST BAN HIM ALREADY! Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Typical tactic of a troll losing the debate is to diverty to the Slave Trade, you were already beat down on that by Baal, who you avoided like the plague so we can dismiss your red-herring
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
Here authentic upper egyptians representative only of ancient upper egyptians :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
These people descend from haratins I already explained you multiple times they are way less indigenous than the white skinned berbers :
[QUOTE]
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
SSA in one breath...Authentic North African in the other...
Mr. Toomy and his delusional bio-diversity arguments...
Focus Nassa...didnt you just say..
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: [qb Yes some nubians were integrated into the egyptian society /QB]
Why are you bringing up slaves?
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
Here authentic upper egyptians representative only of ancient upper egyptians :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
These people descend from haratins I already explained you multiple times they are way less indigenous than the white skinned berbers :
[QUOTE]
So now I adressed you, do the same....I even made it easy for you...
Ill give you an easy one...
Who were the last people to scribe Mdu-Netr on the Temple Walls of Km.T Was it you coastal North Africans who were licking the boots of the Romans, or Neheshi Blubbery lipped True Negros
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
if upper egyptians are black then half of the world is black ....again these dumb american labels.
Jari I don't see what contradicts what I said : the upper egyptians I posted are not blacks nor do they look like any ssa populations. Moreover the tunisian haratin girl has this phenotype because of her ssa component coming from the trans-saharan slave trade I posted the comparison between me and a tunisian haratin. Thanks.
and Again : there were some nubians in egypt but the egyptians were not black.
Here your true negros :
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
quote:hopefully no one outside this site take you seriously and historians/egyptologists already know the truth so I don't care about the opinion of a bunch of complexed low IQ afro-americans.
DID THIS GUY JUST SUGGEST THAT BLACK AMERICANS HAVE A LOW IQ!
WOULD SOMEONE BAN THIS JACK@SS ALREADY! Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: if upper egyptians are black then half of the world is black ....again these dumb american labels.
We have Greek/classical, Arab, and Early European descriptions of Upper Egyptians, even today its undenialable, Didn't Frank J. Yurco not make it clear to you dummies?
quote:Jari I don't see what contradicts what I said : the upper egyptians I posted are not blacks nor do they look like any ssa populations.
Do I need to post the Tunisian girl again?
quote:Here your true negros :
[/qb]
Cute, but those people and other Neheshi had more influence in Egypt than you Coastal North Africans ever did...
Even the 26th Dynasty portrayed themselves in the 25th Dynasty style of coloring.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
Things have to be clear :
- ancient coastal north africans were absolutely not black -Ancient egyptians were not black - We have testimonials of aethiopian groups in North Africa but they didn't play any relevant role in our societies/civilizations except the XXVth dynasty in egypt and some nubian nobles.
- By "black" here I'm not talking about the ridiculous one drop rule but every indigenous population of sub-saharan africa (which includes haratin in NA) and people who have more than 65% of his/her ancestry being from this region. I do not consider some malagasy people to be black because they have a bigger south-east asian component.
Some afro-american phenotypes are also too altered compared to what we found in West or central africa because of the european component most of them have.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Thats right keep avoiding my questions...keep sticking your hands in your ears and yelling like a child.
Your beatdown is clear for all to see...When you man up and answer my questions Ill continue the beatdown...
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Cute, but those people and other Neheshi had more influence in Egypt than you Coastal North Africans ever did...
Even the 26th Dynasty portrayed themselves in the 25th Dynasty style of coloring. [/QB]
Even if that was true I don't really care because I'm not claiming egypt like you all I simply know that ancient egyptians were not black and have absolutely nothing to do with bantu people like you.
look at your ridiculous community XD :
You're really proud of your west african ancestors hahaha. Africa is a continent not your country people like us are totally indigenous to North Africa and it's our ancestors that were the founders of every civilizations that appeared in NA that you like it or not.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
You're 100% right brotha Al, look at how he gets when pushed into a corner(I even went easy on him lol)...Baal quoted him before he edited...
Its how they get, been licking the boots of Cathage, Romans, and Visogothic Spaniards for so long they want to be whiter than the whites...
To bad Europeans cant stand them...The only time Europeans even care about them is to claim them as less advanced off-shoots of Aryans/Indo-Europeans
I was gonna post about the IQ of his Coastal Nomadic ancestors, who needed outside help to create any sort of high culture....but I respect Amazigh, like the ones who host a dark skinned Tunisian as authentic Amazigh...
No need to roll in the mud with a pig..
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: @ Jari
Yeah, get up stand up don't give up the fight!
Even though if on any forum we acted like Nassbean they'd a canned us long ago.
Disrespecting ppl in their own house SMH
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith:
quote:hopefully no one outside this site take you seriously and historians/egyptologists already know the truth so I don't care about the opinion of a bunch of complexed low IQ afro-americans.
DID THIS GUY JUST SUGGEST THAT BLACK AMERICANS HAVE A LOW IQ!
WOULD SOMEONE BAN THIS JACK@SS ALREADY!
Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
Nassbean is a moron. No one here has suggested that the AE looked like Nilotes -- the darkest people in Africa. People are talking of King Narmer, Huni, Sahure, Ahmose, Queen Tiye, Amenhotep III and many more.
Narmer -- First Pharaoh:
Amenhotep III
Queen Tiye
Sahure
Ahmose
Posted by Ty Daniels (Member # 23186) on :
People with LOW IQ believe in "True Negroes". Yet you claim "African Americans" are the ones with "Low IQ".
All data points to so called "Sub Saharan Africans" to have the highest genetic diversity, WIDE PHENOTYPE diversity, skin color, hair texture, nose width, skull shape, height etc...
So NO there isn't now, NOR EVER have there been any "TRUE NEGROS".
Only people with VERY LOW intelligence continue to beat their heads up against walls to parrot concepts DEVOID OF REALITY.
If there are "True Negroes" there are "True Blancos".
"Blancos"/Whites have less genetic diversity than so-called "Sub Saharan Africans", as well as lower phenotype diversity. So the criteria for classifying one as "White" should be more stringent.
Disqualifying anyone that even slightly deviates from the "True Blancos" in Europe.
So your "White North Africans" aren't "TRUE WHITES"
Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
This is a map of all the kingdoms of ancient Sudan -- kingdoms that were contemporaries of ancient Egypt. The word "Nubian" is applied to all of them and this is where the confusion arises.
There was no kingdom or entity called "Nubia" in ancient times. There were no people (s) called "Nubians". These "Nubians" spoke different languages (belonging to different linguistic groups) and had markedly different physical appearances.
Some of Egypt's Southern neighbours [those to the immediate South] very closely resembled the ancient Egyptians. Those further South did not.
"Nubia" is a corruption of the ancient Egyptian word Nubt -- a word for gold. There was a city in Upper Egypt called Nubti, which would have been the original Nubia.
These are the people of Punt (modern day Northeast Sudan or Somalia) and they resemble the ancient Egyptians:
Ancient Egyptian soldiers and sailors
The pitch-black people we see on ancient Egyptian walls must have been the ancestors of the Nuba of Kordofan and/or the Nilotic tribes that used to live in the Gezira -- tribes like the Dinka and Nuer - the blackest people in Africa.
Upper Egypt has had shared affinities with specific people 'Nubia' for tens of thousands of years, and this is why specialists understand that 'Nubians' were ethnically the closest people to the ancient Egyptians since the predynastic period.
Eurocentrics [ignorant, dishonest cretins] insist on creating an artificial dichotomy between the people of the South and the ancient Egyptians by presenting the pitch-black ancestors of the "Nuba" and the Dinka as the quintessential "Nubians" while ignoring people that so very closely resembled the ancient Egyptians.
The Dinka and Nuer have significantly darker skin than all the Africans so its not necessary for the ancient Egyptians to be as black as the Dinka to be called black just as the Greeks, Italians and Portugese don't need to be as white as the Norwegians and Swedes to be called White.
Here's a picture of a black man from Swaziland standing next to a Hematite mine and his skin tone matches the red ochre that we see used to represent the ancient Egyptians. Contrast him to a Dinka, and what he's not black anymore?
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] You're 100% right brotha Al, look at how he gets when pushed into a corner(I even went easy on him lol)...Baal quoted him before he edited...
Its how they get, been licking the boots of Cathage, Romans, and Visogothic Spaniards for so long they want to be whiter than the whites...
To bad Europeans cant stand them...
I was gonna post about the IQ of his Coastal Nomadic ancestors, who needed outside help to create any sort of high culture....but I respect Amazigh, like the ones who host a dark skinned Tunisian as authentic Amazigh...
No need to roll in the mud with a pig..
Visigoths never controlled north africa but ok ...
anyway adding this would be good too :
"Among the part-time and full-time nomads the interracial relationship is more complicated. The Ait Atta for example, who pasture their sheep ion the middle Atlas in summer and in the Dades Valley to the south in winter, have their castles and gardens in Dades valley. There they delegate the agricultural work to caste of Negroid serfs, the Haratin . Other Haratin are found in oases all along the northern fringe of the Sahara, and indeed throughout the desert.The camel nomads, particular the famed Tuareg, or People of Vel, are divided into castes of nobles, imghad, or camel-breeding dependents who also have their Haratin, and slaves.The merchant communities of the great oases, like the Mzabites of Ghardaia, foster endogamy as they belong to a schismatic sect of Islam, that of the Khawarij, or Kharijites. They to have their gardens tilled by Haratin . " From "THE LIVING RACES OF MAN" by Carleton S. Coon, 1965
"The measurements were principally of adaptively trivial traits that display patterns of regional similarities based solely on genetic relationships. The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia, Oceania, or the New World . We conclude that the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations " Brace, C. L., D. P. Tracer, L. A. Yaroch, J. Robb, K. Brandt, and A. R. Nelson. 1993. Clines and Clusters Versus "Race": A Test in Ancient Egypt and the Case of a Death on the Nile. Yearbook of Physical Anthropology 36:1-31.
" A proportion of 1/4 to 1/2 of North African female pool is made of typical sub-Saharan lineages, in higher frequencies as geographic proximity to sub-Saharan Africa increases.The Sahara was a strong geographical barrier against gene flow, at least since 5,000 years ago, when desertification affected a larger region, but the Arab trans-Saharan slave trade could have facilitate enormously this migration of lineages. " " The interpolation analyses and complete sequencing of present mtDNA sub-Saharan lineages observed in North Africa support the genetic impact of recent trans-Saharan migrations, namely the slave trade initiated by the Arab conquest of North Africa in the seventh century. Sub-Saharan people did not leave traces in the North African maternal gene pool for the time of its settlement, some 40,000 years ago. "
"The attempt to force the Egyptians into either a “black” or a “white” category has no biological justification. Our data show not only that Egypt clearly had biological ties to the north and to the south, but that it was intermediate between populations to the east and the west, and that Egypt was basically Egyptian from the Neolithic right on up to historic times. In this, our analysis simply reinforces the findings of other recent studies " https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/ajpa.1330360603
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15694?fbclid=IwAR3UbRWTkPOX8eRRU5B2JJDjlgaTIS1KBAmneMRGFDRLs0Wn4whlK9qQbu4 ---> "By comparing ancient individuals from Abusir el-Meleq with modern Egyptian reference populations, we found an influx of sub-Saharan African ancestry after the Roman Period, which corroborates the findings by Henn and colleagues16. Further investigation would be needed to link this influx to particular historic processes. Possible causal factors include increased mobility down the Nile and increased long-distance commerce between sub-Saharan Africa and Egypt49. Trans-Saharan slave trade may have been particularly important as it moved between 6 and 7 million sub-Saharan slaves to Northern Africa over a span of some 1,250 years, reaching its high point in the nineteenth century "
" Considering the deep unity of the Berber over a considerable area, we could even very legitimately hypothesize that the initial cradle of the Chamito-Semitic languages, contrary to all classical theses, could well be North Africa, the only mole of stability and continuity in the Chamito-Semitic ensemble, from which the branches and languages of the family would have diversified, by migration to the southeast (Cushitic and Chadian domain), to the East (Egyptian domain In any case, the hypothesis is no less legitimate than all the other previously issued and even seems to be supported by linguistic material, notably grammatical, because the Berber system often appears both as prototypical and particularly transparent in the whole Chamito-Semitic " "https://journals.openedition.org/encyclopedieberbere/314
"Herodotus lists two new peoples - the Greeks and the Phoenicians - and two indigenous peoples - the Libyans to the north and the Aethiopes * to the south - living in" Libya "(IV 197, 2). their geographic connotations: in Herodotus as in the following centuries, the term "Libyans" serves above all as a collective name for the indigenous population of North Africa, distinguished by its lighter skin and other characters compared to the Ethiopians negroids (for a detailed catalog of "Libyan" tribes in this sense, attested through antiquity, cf. Desanges 1962). " https://journals.openedition.org/encyclopedieberbere/338
" Among ancient populations, early Neolithic Moroccans share affinities with Levantine Natufian hunter-gatherers (~9,000 BCE) and Pre-Pottery Neolithic farmers (~6,500 BCE). Late Neolithic (~3,000 BCE) Moroccan remains, in comparison, share an Iberian component of a prominent European-wide demic expansion, supporting theories of trans-Gibraltar gene flow. Finally, the Andalusian Early Neolithic samples share the same genetic composition as the Cardial Mediterranean Neolithic culture that reached Iberia ~5,500 BCE. The cultural and genetic similarities of the Iberian Neolithic cultures with that of North African Neolithic sites further reinforce the model of an Iberian intrusion into the Maghreb "https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/09/21/191569
"The results of this study show that there is a native genetic component that defines North Africans. In-depth study of these markers shows that the people inhabiting North Africa today are not descendants of the earliest occupants of this region fifty thousand years ago, but shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were a group of populations that already lived in the region around thirteen thousand years ago. Furthermore, this local North African genetic component is very different from the one found in the populations in the south of the Sahara, which shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were members of a subgroup of humanity who left Africa to conquer the rest of the world and who subsequently returned to the north of the continent to settle in the region" (https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1002397)
Ase thinking the Sahara was all green :
"The Sahara was wetter and greener during multiple interglacial periods of the Quaternary, when some have suggested it featured very large (mega) lakes, ranging in surface area from 30,000 to 350,000 km2. In this paper, we review the physical and biological evidence for these large lakes, especially during the African Humid Period (AHP) 11–5 ka. Megalake systems from around the world provide a checklist of diagnostic features, such as multiple well-defined shoreline benches, wave-rounded beach gravels where coarse material is present, landscape smoothing by lacustrine sediment, large-scale deltaic deposits, and in places, tufas encrusting shorelines. Our survey reveals no clear evidence of these features in the Sahara, except in the Chad basin. Hydrologic modeling of the proposed megalakes requires mean annual rainfall =1.2 m/yr and a northward displacement of tropical rainfall belts by =1000 km. Such a profound displacement is not supported by other paleo-climate proxies and comprehensive climate models, challenging the existence of megalakes in the Sahara. Rather than megalakes, isolated wetlands and small lakes are more consistent with the Sahelo-Sudanian paleoenvironment that prevailed in the Sahara during the AHP. A pale-green and discontinuously wet Sahara is the likelier context for human migrations out of Africa during the late Quaternary ." (https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/quaternary-research/article/megalakes-in-the-sahara-a-review/7515BC9AAFE40606D3FC30C9D0C7D9D7?fbclid=IwAR36_bsGGbeKA5sJyJsxNv8rcPS8QQU2m2op FfLWPSqfu9wPzASp95VUrvE)
A handful of mHGs characterized ancient Egyptian mtDNA. 44% belonged to the following mHGs: R0a 7.8%, HV1 6.7%, J2a2 6.7%, T1a 14.4%, M1a 5.6%, I 4.4%. Every single one of those mHGs is specific to the Near East-North Africa except for U6a and M1a which make a significant presence Iberia and many parts of Africa. Today R0a, HV1, and J2a2 interesting all peak in Egypt. And the ancient Egyptians had as high of a frequency in those mHGs as you’ll find in any modern population. Their high frequency of J2a2(6.7%) is even more interesting considering it has been found in the Natufians. J2a2 seldom appears outside of the SouthWest Asia-North Africa. Last year I classified it Near Easter(See here). J in Europe is dominated by J1c while J1b-J1d dominates J in much of the Middle East. Saying the ancient Egyptians had a lot of T1a doesn’t say much considering T1a is equally popular in most of West Eurasia(from Ireland to Iran). The T1a clades the ancient Egyptians belonged to: T1a7, T1a2, T1a5, T1a8, all are Near Eastern-specific. None of them belonged to European-SC Asian T1a1. Most of my modern T1a7 samples are from Egypt. All of my Egyptian T1a7 samples belong to an unclassified T1a7 clade, it’ll be interesting to see if these ancient Egyptians belonged to that clade.
"Our Copper Age dataset includes a newly reported male (I4246) from Camino de las Yeseras in central Iberia, radiocarbon dated to 2473–2030 calibrated years BCE, who clusters with modern and ancient North Africans in the PCA (Fig. 1C and fig. S3) and, like ~3000 BCE Moroccans (8), can be well modeled as having ancestry from both Late Pleistocene North Africans(15) and Early Neolithic Europeans (tables S9 and S10). His genome-wide ancestry and uniparental markers (tables S1 and S4) are unique among Copper Age Iberians, including individuals from sites with many analyzed individuals such as Sima del Ángel, and point to a North African origin. Our genetic evidence of sporadic contacts with North Africa during the Copper Age fits with the presence of African ivory at Iberian sites (16) and is further supported by a Bronze Age individual (I7162) from Loma del Puerco in southern Iberia who had 25% ancestry related to individuals like I4246 (Fig. 1D and table S16)."
The Saharan rock representations make it possible to distinguish 3 morphotypically identifiable populations which lived separated from each other (from 8000 to 1000 BC) : 1) a leucoderm population (linked to the naturalistic bubaline art) which occupied all of northern sahara - -> Border with blacks with the 25-27th parallels which separates the neolithic capsian from the neolithic saharo-sudanais. 2) a non-negroid melanoderm group like the Peuls or the Nilotics. 3) a Negro group confined to the southernmost areas and Tassili but also in certain areas such as the Tibesti, the Ennedi and Ouenat (Bernard lugan, p29-30)
the presence of mitochondrial DNA patterns geographically specific to the populations of North West Africa and their age of coalescence in this region, around 30,000 years (Maca-Meyer, et al. 2003) supports an ancient continuity of man in this region. This is also confirmed by the presence of specific haplotypes of the Y chromosome (Lucotte et al. 2000; Bosch et al. 2001). Likewise, Flores et al. (2001) demonstrated a large number of paternal lines of North African origin (over 75%), supporting long-term population continuity in this region. "(http://www.didac.ehu.es/antropo/20/20-5/Chadli.pdf)
" Moreover, our model predicts that West Africans (represented by Yoruba) had 12.5±1.1% ancestry from a Taforalt-related group rather than Taforalt having ancestry from an unknown Sub-Saharan African source11; this may have mediated the limited Neanderthal admixture present in West Africans23. An advantage of our model is that it allows for a local North African component in the ancestry of Taforalt, rather than deriving them exclusively from Levantine and Sub-Saharan sources ." https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/423079v1.full
And I have tons of other quotes so you better refute this before talking to me
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: A big thanks to you because you just debunked ASE's argument about ancient upper egyptians looking like ethiopians simply based on craniometry...so we both agree that craniometry means nothing when it comes to phenotypes and dna.
LOL You obviously have poor reading comprehension. I never contradicted Ase's claims! He's right that Egyptians cranometrically resemble Ethiopians this is a fact that has been touted by anthropologists since the 19th century up until today.
Loring Brace's 1994 craniometric clustering
^ Note the position of Somali people
Brace's 2004 craniometric study
^ Again Somali people cluster closer to early Egyptians than Berbers.
My point was simply that craniometric data only gives one an indication of craniofacial resemblance. Craniofacial resemblance does NOT necessarily correlate to close genetic relation as again an Andamanese people aboriginal to Southeast Asia are metrically close to stereotypical i.e. "negroid" Africans but obviously they are no closer genetically than Japanese or Indigenous Americans! And even according to Brace's findings Somali are closer to Egyptians than the Nubians right next to them.
quote:As for upper egyptians being mostly arab you have of course no evidence for this while I posted evidence of the impact of the trans-saharan slave trade you were of course not able to contradict them.
When did I say they were "mostly Arab", I simply said they were not the exact same as their ancient ancestors due to foreign influence not only from Arabs but other peoples including Sub-Saharans! Again, learn how to read what is actually, written.
quote:Originally posted by Ase: He's saying THAT the specific graph you posted (that is mainly focused on nasal values) is worthless. Not that ALL craniometry is invalid.
It's not just nasal values but also other values of the face. As I said, craniometry is valid in only assessing general features of the face and skull of a population and who they generally resemble. Usually populations tend to resemble neighboring populations close by whom they tend to be related to genetically, but historical processes of migration tend to change such features over time. Plus by circumstance one population in one part of the world may closely resemble another population from another part of the world without having any close genetic relation hence Melanesians and Andamanese looking like Sub-Saharan West Africans.
The features of the skull that are the best to use for close genetic relations are non-metric features that is those features of the skull that cannot be measured like certain like bump patterns on the skull.
Posted by Mansamusa (Member # 22474) on :
Oh, boy! Another North African nationalist on the loose.
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote: "The measurements were principally of adaptively trivial traits that display patterns of regional similarities based solely on genetic relationships. The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia, Oceania, or the New World. We conclude that the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations " Brace, C. L., D. P. Tracer, L. A. Yaroch, J. Robb, K. Brandt, and A. R. Nelson. 1993. Clines and Clusters Versus "Race": A Test in Ancient Egypt and the Case of a Death on the Nile. Yearbook of Physical Anthropology 36:1-31.
Didn't we discuss already that Brace's findings were based mostly on nasal metrics?
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: " A proportion of 1/4 to 1/2 of North African female pool is made of typical sub-Saharan lineages, in higher frequencies as geographic proximity to sub-Saharan Africa increases. The Sahara was a strong geographical barrier against gene flow, at least since 5,000 years ago, when desertification affected a larger region, but the Arab trans-Saharan slave trade could have facilitate enormously this migration of lineages. " " The interpolation analyses and complete sequencing of present mtDNA sub-Saharan lineages observed in North Africa support the genetic impact of recent trans-Saharan migrations, namely the slave trade initiated by the Arab conquest of North Africa in the seventh century. Sub-Saharan people did not leave traces in the North African maternal gene pool for the time of its settlement, some 40,000 years ago. "
Depends on where in North Africa you're talking about:
"Furthermore, SSA groups indicated to have contributed to modern Egypt do not match the Muslim trade routes that have been well documented as SSA groups from the great lakes and southern African regions were largely absent in the internal trading routes that went north to Egypt."
Ancient Egyptian Genomes from northern Egypt: Further discussion -- SOY Keita
quote:"The attempt to force the Egyptians into either a “black” or a “white” category has no biological justification. Our data show not only that Egypt clearly had biological ties to the north and to the south, but that it was intermediate between populations to the east and the west, and that Egypt was basically Egyptian from the Neolithic right on up to historic times. In this, our analysis simply reinforces the findings of other recent studies " https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/ajpa.1330360603
The entirety of Egypt would've been accurately described as intermediate. However when discussing the origins of of the dominant culture: How OLDER Upper Egyptians when looked at specifically? They would've been black.
quote:https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15694?fbclid=IwAR3UbRWTkPOX8eRRU5B2JJDjlgaTIS1KBAmneMRGFDRLs0Wn4whlK9qQbu4 ---> "By comparing ancient individuals from Abusir el-Meleq with modern Egyptian reference populations, we found an influx of sub-Saharan African ancestry after the Roman Period, which corroborates the findings by Henn and colleagues16. Further investigation would be needed to link this influx to particular historic processes. Possible causal factors include increased mobility down the Nile and increased long-distance commerce between sub-Saharan Africa and Egypt49.
The same study says:
quote: It is possible that populations in the south of Egypt were more closely related to those of Nubia and had a higher sub-Saharan genetic component, in which case the argument for an influx of sub-Saharan ancestries after the Roman Period might only be partially valid and have to be nuanced.
As in: Mixture from an indigenous population to the south of the sample site could explain why we see Sub Saharan genetic components. I'll be clear to note that these findings don't matter to my argument specifically. But you're trying to make the study say more than it can. And...oh yes it also said:
quote:Especially from the second millennium BCE onwards, there were intense, historically- and archaeologically documented contacts, including the large-scale immigration of Canaanite populations, known as the Hyksos, into Lower Egypt, whose origins lie in the Middle Bronze Age Levant
Asiatics populated Egypt and eventually took control of Egypt all the way south to Cusae. The Egyptian site selected is not only near Faiyum, the mummies predate what it just admitted was large scale immigration from Canaan.
quote:Trans-Saharan slave trade may have been particularly important as it moved between 6 and 7 million sub-Saharan slaves to Northern Africa over a span of some 1,250 years, reaching its high point in the nineteenth century "[/b]
Again:
quote: Furthermore, SSA groups indicated to have contributed to modern Egypt do not match the Muslim trade routes that have been well documented as SSA groups from the great lakes and southern African regions were largely absent in the internal trading routes that went north to Egypt.
Areas like the Great Lakes were not really subject to the slave trade.
quote:Ase thinking the Sahara was all green :
"The Sahara was wetter and greener during multiple interglacial periods of the Quaternary, when some have suggested it featured very large (mega) lakes, ranging in surface area from 30,000 to 350,000 km2. In this paper, we review the physical and biological evidence for these large lakes, especially during the African Humid Period (AHP) 11–5 ka. Megalake systems from around the world provide a checklist of diagnostic features, such as multiple well-defined shoreline benches, wave-rounded beach gravels where coarse material is present, landscape smoothing by lacustrine sediment, large-scale deltaic deposits, and in places, tufas encrusting shorelines. Our survey reveals no clear evidence of these features in the Sahara, except in the Chad basin. Hydrologic modeling of the proposed megalakes requires mean annual rainfall =1.2 m/yr and a northward displacement of tropical rainfall belts by =1000 km. Such a profound displacement is not supported by other paleo-climate proxies and comprehensive climate models, challenging the existence of megalakes in the Sahara. Rather than megalakes, isolated wetlands and small lakes are more consistent with the Sahelo-Sudanian paleoenvironment that prevailed in the Sahara during the AHP. A pale-green and discontinuously wet Sahara is the likelier context for human migrations out of Africa during the late Quaternary ."
It says:
quote:Rather than megalakes, isolated wetlands and small lakes are more consistent with the Sahelo-Sudanian paleoenvironment that prevailed in the Sahara during the AHP. A pale-green and discontinuously wet Sahara is the likelier context for human migrations out of Africa during the late Quaternary."
Sounds like they're saying it's a Sahel. Do blacks in Africa live in and travel through the Sahel all the time? Yes, they do. Wasn't arguing the Sahara had big megalakes and was a tropical rainforest. But it's modern aridity happened at about 2,000 BC. This stood to kill humans that couldn't adapt to the desert environments, pumping more non-black foreigners into Egypt from Canaan and possibly other parts of north Africa.
Snipped and skimmed through passages that discuss non blacks in north Africa and genotypes not shared with SSA in ancient north Africa because I already argued that was a thing and so I really don't care.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Here are more Sa'idi (Upper Egyptians):
famous Sa'idi singer Sheikh Ahmad Al-Tuni
Sa'idi performing traditional stick fight-dance
Sa'idi boys
Sa'idi ladies
The most famous Sa'idi in Christianity Saint Moorius Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
this kid again? year after year with the invisible bow?
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Things have to be clear :
- ancient coastal north africans were absolutely not black
They didn't make the dominant culture of Egypt so no one cares.
quote:-Ancient egyptians were not black
Southern Egyptians that founded the dominant culture were, even if they weren't all black.
quote:- We have testimonials of aethiopian groups in North Africa but they didn't play any relevant role in our societies/civilizations except the XXVth dynasty in egypt and some nubian nobles.
Nope! they closely matched the phenotypes of the original upper Egyptians. Upper Egyptians clustered between Nubians and Ethiopians.
quote:- By "black" here I'm not talking about the ridiculous one drop rule but every indigenous population of sub-saharan africa (which includes haratin in NA) and people who have more than 65% of his/her ancestry being from this region.
Yawn genetics don't ultimately determine who winds up black. You can have people with less SSA ancestry than that but would pass as black. And since you want to play that game let's show:
You'd probably be surprised how common this is. The woman above only has 34 percent European ancestry. 66 percent of her ancestry is from SSA. You can find North Africans that look like this too:
And this woman was probably darker than the skintone given in the reconstruction too.
Also: Aboriginals have NO SSA ancestry and still live as blacks in Australia. So again it's about phenotype, not genotype.
quote: I do not consider some malagasy people to be black because they have a bigger south-east asian component.
No one cares what you want to believe. If you don't have a trillion dollar military and financial infrastructure it don't mean shit. NO ONE chooses their race. Aboriginals are even more distantly related to SSA than Malagasy and are black. So it doesn't matter if they have a larger Asian component, what is the phenotype? If black then they're black.
quote:Some afro-american phenotypes are also too altered compared to what we found in West or central africa because of the european component most of them have.
And yet we navigate the west as blacks, not just the Americas. Which I might add was the result of multiple waves of European immigration that's people all continuously decided we were blacks. The one drop rule doesn't really exist in U.S politics. It's more like any trace of features that are considered black gets you treated as black. And that attitude has been something many famous blacks in the political world have faced over and over and in more western places than just the U.S.
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: [QUOTE]
look at your ridiculous community XD :
At least they're not robbing indigenous people of their billions like non-blacks from MENA that have come to own our culture. Or doing this
with the ambition to make a multi million dollar financial empire built on being a culture vulture that preys on blacks
And she's just a small fry compared to the others. I could've posted even more ridiculous shit but I'm not going to get the banhammer over it. Come get your rich non-black vultures that come here trying to make money off our culture. They are out here making porn and popping their vaginas on camera for the opportunity to make money off my people. No shame!
quote:Africa is a continent not your country people like us are totally indigenous to North Africa and it's our ancestors that were the founders of every civilizations that appeared in NA that you like it or not.
Maybe, that's not really what anyone cares about though. Was there phenotype black is the only thing of interest and yes the dominant culture's phenotype was originally black.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: this guy is Khnum-Nakht :
this is a small statue of him :
and this is his coffin :
You see how dishonest she is?
How is she dishonest when she posts a reconstruction based on Khnum-Nakht's skull while YOU post merely a sarcophagus portrait. If anything it is YOU who is being dishonest.
The author of the above thread makes it clear that art is subjective and may not reflect the physical reality of the person. In fact F.Y.I. the manufacturing let alone customization of sarcophagi was a time consuming and expensive process. Most sarcophagus owners seemed to have been satisfied with a generic face as long as the funerary epitaphs and spells for a blessed afterlife were correctly painted, written, or etched. The thread author makes it clear with photographs that Khnum-Nakht's skull possessed clear features typically labeled as "negroid" despite the non-negroid looking portrait but he is far from being the only one.
quote:Of course she will accept this reconstruction of Khnum but strangely she will not accept those ones :
It's not unusual to see multiple constructions of the same mummy which isn't surprising considering that some folks such as yourself are discomforted by earlier perhaps more accurate reconstructions that display the Africoid features usually associated with Sub-Saharans. But even with the reconstructions above, their so-called "caucasoid" features would still not look out of place for some black peoples in Africa. This is why the biased artists of later reconstructions prefer using lighter if not actual white skin tones to perpetuate fantasy while obfuscating reality.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Note Khnum-Nakht's actual skull next to the white-washed reconstruction.
Here are some closer looks.
Here are some more obvious white-washed reconstructions (Tut not included):
the Gilded Lady
child
priestess Amunet Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Reconstruction of Upper Egyptian priest Nesperennub from Waset (Thebes).
Modern Sa'idi boy from the same area.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Tried this via PM a coupla hours ago. Butcha know what? I acted out publicly. As a man I must do this publicly too.
@ Djehuti I'm sorry. I owe you this apology. Surely u r a soldier in the fight for authentic Africana. Nassbean flared my temper to lash out blindly. Forgive me.
Sorry for what? Did I miss something? For the 15 years I've been on this forum you've known that I've done nothing but fought for the truth of Egypt and greater North Africa's 'Africanity' which on the face of it sounds ridiculous. Never do Europeans have to fight for the Europeaness of Mediterranean Europe despite the African influence of the Neolithic. I may not be of African descent or part of the diaspora and am just an Asian but like the white poster Brandon I care about the truth. Some folks like Nassbean are just too consumed by ideology to acknowledge the truth when it smacks them on the face.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: if upper egyptians are black then half of the world is black ....again these dumb american labels.
Half the world IS black, as 'black' is a description of very dark skin color which is not only confined to indigenous Africans but indigenous peoples of the tropics and subtropics including Arabia, India, and aboriginals to Southeast Asia, Australia and the Pacific! Again 'black' as a label for skin color is NOT confined to America as the black Indian woman you posted is called 'kali' (black) in her own country you nitwit!
quote:Jari I don't see what contradicts what I said : the upper egyptians I posted are not blacks nor do they look like any ssa populations. Moreover the tunisian haratin girl has this phenotype because of her ssa component coming from the trans-saharan slave trade I posted the comparison between me and a tunisian haratin. Thanks.
More lies and/or excuses. Newsflash: not all black Berbers are "Haratin" there are black Mozabites, black Kabyle, and of course all Berber speaking Egyptians are black as well!
quote:and Again : there were some nubians in egypt but the egyptians were not black.
According to whom?
A-M Mekota1, M Vermehren Department of Biology I, Biodiversity Research/Anthropology1and Department of Veterinary Anatomy II2, Ludwig-Maximilians University Munich, Germany Submitted January 8, 2002; revised May 4, 2004; accepted August 12, 2004 Abstract During an excavation headed by the German Institute for Archaeology, Cairo, at the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt, three types of tissues from different mummies were sampled to compare 13 well known rehydration methods for mummified tissue with three newly developed methods. Furthermore, three fixatives were tested with each of the rehydration fluids. Meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and a placenta were used for this study. The rehydration and fixation procedures were uniform for all methods.
Materials and methods In 1997, the German Institute for Archaeology headed an excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. At this time, three types of tissues were sampled from different mummies: meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and placenta. Archaeological findings suggest that the mummies dated from the New Kingdom (approximately 1550-1080 BC).
Skin Skin sections showed particularly good tissue preservation, although cellular outlines were never distinct. Although much of the epidermis had already separated from the dermis, the remaining epidermis often was preserved well (Fig. 1). The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin. In the dermis, the hair follicles, hair, and sebaceous and sweat glands were readily apparent (Fig. 2). Blood vessels, but no red blood cells, and small peripheral nerves were identified unambiguously (Fig. 3). The subcutaneous layer showed loose connective tissue fibers attached to the dermis, and fat cell remnants were observed.
So much for your non-black Egyptians. LOL
quote:Here your true negros :
There is no such thing as "true negroes" anymore than there are "true caucasians". You realize the term "true negro" is an outdated anthropological term used to deny the phenotypic diversity of black Africans which is exactly what you're doing.
But to play your silly game here are your true blanko caucasians!:
Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
The above pictures are from the Mastaba-Chapel of Hetepherakhet and they seem to show two different types of AE -> Upper Egyptians and Lower Egyptians.
Beyoku mentioned something along these lines in ABF not too long ago. What do posters think?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Jari asked: Why are you bringing up slaves?
Remember the words of Eldridge Cleaver, not that I admire him in any way whatsoever.
quote:“having lived intimately for several years among the Arabs, I know them to be among the most racist people on earth.”
Cleaver’s article, written from his jail cell, was published in the Boston Herald-American. He said that many wealthy Arab families owned one or two Black slaves. “Sometimes they own an entire family. I have seen such slaves with my own eyes,” he wrote describing his experience in Algeria where he lived after fleeing the United States.
.
The reasons Nassabe keeps mentioning slaves is the word for slave and the word for an African black are exactly the same in many Arabic speaking countries and most Tamazight speaking peoples.
That's something non-continental blk ppl don't understand or if known to them gets compartmentalized since free people of African descent in Indo-European speaking lands have seperate terms for a blk person and for a slave.
Arab and Arabic speakers in Euro descent dominated nations are surprised and embarrassed when confronted with facts from their homeland are thrown in their face by a non-continental African by descent. Why? So many of them under 40 have adapted Hip Hop culture and throw around the word nigger even calling each other bitch ass nigger as a jibe and of course the kids and the lower class blx won't bust em in the lip like most blx used to do when anybody but a Spanish speaker uses the word.
Negrita means sweetheart just like blk grlz last millenium called their boyfriend that's my nigger. Negra is reserved for a "wife" and otherwise is an insult.
Gone are the days when young blx would smack the shiss outta anybody else flying the N bomb.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
These are Descendant of American Slavery or Foundational Black Americans your average African Americans who overwhelmingly belong to no religious minority groups. Noble Drew Ali type Moors and Black Hebrew Israelite types are atypical of cultural practices and clothing of American blx.
[img][/img]
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Please don't call yourself "just an Asian", you know what I'm saying.
There's mostly positive interaction of ADOS/FBA and Filipinos over a centry and not just hair for weaves.
Heads up, an Americas black rabbi is there in the Phillipines assisting those who have decided to practice Hokmat Yisra'el (traditional Judaism - Sefer Torah, sidduriym, synagogue, Yomiym Tobiym, etc)
I know blk is reserved for the short statured indigenees in the east of Asia, from China southward to Indonesia and the periphery.
Funny thing is an Askenazi man at a cong in a city I used to live in for no reason at all felt the need to tell me and my wife that his Filipina wife is black. Of course he didn't mean of African descent and honestly her complexion and underlying skin tone is in no wise one I've seen on anybody I'd call black. Man, they had three beautiful children!
BTW That rabbi of Black American descent is married to a Filipina and they too have one Bee-A-Utiful toddler!
buck the pm back to me if you'd the pics
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Sorry for what? Did I miss something? For the 15 years I've been on this forum you've known that I've done nothing but fought for the truth of Egypt and greater North Africa's 'Africanity' which on the face of it sounds ridiculous.
Never do Europeans have to fight for the Europeaness of Mediterranean Europe despite the African influence of the Neolithic.
I may not be of African descent or part of the diaspora and am just an Asian but like the white poster Brandon I care about the truth. Some folks like Nassbean are just too consumed by ideology to acknowledge the truth when it smacks them on the face.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Jari asked: Why are you bringing up slaves?
Remember the words of Eldridge Cleaver, not that I admire him in any way whatsoever.
The reasons Nassabe keeps mentioning slaves is the word for slave and the word for an African black are exactly the same in many Arabic speaking countries and most Tamazight speaking peoples.
That's something non-continental blk ppl dom't understand or if known to them gets compartmentalized since free people of African descent in Indo-European speaking lands have seperate terms for a blk person and for a slave.
Arab and Arabic speakers in Euro descent dominated nations are surprised and embarrassed when confronted from facts from their homeland are thrown in their face by a non-continental African by descent. Why? So many of them under 40 have adapted Hip Hop culture and throw around the word nigger even calling each other bitch ass nigger as a jibe and of course the kids and the lower class blx won't bust em in the lip like most blx used to do when anybody but a Spanish speaker uses the word.
Negrita means sweetheart just like blk grlz last millenium called their boyfriend that's my nigger. Negra is reserved for a "wife" and otherwise is an insult.
Gone are the days when young blx would smack the shiss outta anybody else flying the N bomb.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: These are Descendant of American Slavery or Foundational Black Americans your average African Americans who overwhelmingly belong to no religious minority groups. Noble Drew Ali type Moors and Black Hebrew Israelite types are atypical of cultural practices and clothing of American blx.
[img][/img]
Unfortunately I've seen plenty of them wearing ankh or hamsa necklace as if it was part of their culture I've rarely seen any afro-american being proud of his west african roots in general they prefer egypt or the moors.
Here a delusional mixed afro american with a very big euro component thinking her ancestors were egyptians :
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
More pictures of how black people were portrayed by egyptians :
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
In comparison here egyptians :
They looked exactly like their modern descendents
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Doesn't care if something is true? Denying Northafrocen-trick claims on AE?
Please click and read the CONTENTS, PREFACE, and two chapters - AMAZIGHT ROOTS OF EGYPTIAN CLTURE - HUNTERS OF THE NILE.
She said her rag should be in every African Studies dept library in universities to set the blx straight. But then what to expect from a Zigh who says its a fact Berbers originated western Beled es Sudan civilization!
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Cute, but those people and other Neheshi had more influence in Egypt than you Coastal North Africans ever did...
Even the 26th Dynasty portrayed themselves in the 25th Dynasty style of coloring.
Also here how the ancestors of afro-americans portrayed themselves :
They looked exactly like modern west africans I see no ressemblance with ancient egyptians
Posted by Chol (Member # 22252) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: More pictures of how black people were portrayed by egyptians :
No, just pictures of Nilotes; the Nilotes have a very distinct phenotype and are undoubtedly the blackest people in Africa.
Even in Sudan, they are much darker than some of the tribes in the South. The ancient Egyptians I showed were a different kind of black people, and you're pretending that they don't exist in order to maintain your fragile ego.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chol: No, just pictures of Nilotes; the Nilotes have a very distinct phenotype and are undoubtedly the blackest people in Africa.
Even in Sudan, they are much darker than some of the tribes in the South. The ancient Egyptians I showed were a different kind of black people, and you're pretending that they don't exist in order to maintain your fragile ego. [/QB]
No we clearly see a difference in the morphological representation with nubians having typical negroid traits while egyptians being represented with caucasoid traits and a reddish skin tone exactly like modern egyptians. You have no evidence that only nilotes were represented.
Posted by Chol (Member # 22252) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: In comparison here egyptians :
They looked exactly like their modern descendents
So a random Berber lunatic (with an inferiority complex) gets to decide that Narmer and Queen Tiye are not Egyptian? ROFL!
You've already been told that showing Lower Egyptians is not going to help you; Upper Egypt matters far more and they did not look like coastal Berbers.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
An official in Oyotunji a village in Sheldon NC where decades ago some ADOS/FBA re-established tight links to the Gulf of Guinea cultures many but no all of them hail from.
[insert more imgs here later]
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chol: So a random Berber lunatic (with an inferiority complex) gets to decide that Narmer and Queen Tiye are not Egyptian? ROFL!
You've already been told that showing Lower Egyptians is not going to help you; Upper Egypt matters far more and they did not look like coastal Berbers. [/QB]
Lol look at your queen Tiye here :
her statue that all afrocentrists are always posting is made of unpainted wood that is oxidised due to its age.
Now about Narmer ...specialists are not even sure this bust portrays him :
this bust is damaged and I see no skin color nor negroid traits. It's not a coincidence if afrocentrists always post the same 5 or 6 pics of very damaged statues.
Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Chol: No, just pictures of Nilotes; the Nilotes have a very distinct phenotype and are undoubtedly the blackest people in Africa.
Even in Sudan, they are much darker than some of the tribes in the South. The ancient Egyptians I showed were a different kind of black people, and you're pretending that they don't exist in order to maintain your fragile ego.
No we clearly see a difference in the morphological representation with nubians having typical negroid traits while egyptians being represented with caucasoid traits and a reddish skin tone exactly like modern egyptians. You have no evidence that only nilotes were represented. [/QB]
"Negroid" like Narmer and Queen Tiye? You're a joke. You've already been told (a million times) that "Nubians" were not homogenous and that some "Nubians" (Lower "Nubians" and Puntites) were almost identical to the ancient Upper Egyptians.
Lower "Nubians" as portrayed by ancient Egyptians:
Kushites portraying themselves
Egyptian soldiers
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
I've already said that nubians from the land of wawat had the same skin tone as upper egyptians ...Moreover queen tiye or narmer were not negroid nor black.
Also people should stop posting pictures of little unpainted statues made of oxidised wood.
Here how kushites portrayed themselves (completely different from ancient egyptians) :
They also complained about me posting busts from the New Kingdom because according to them they all represent mixed asiatic individuals but strangely posting queen tiye from the XVIIIth dynasty is not a problem. You see the hypocrisy here ?
anyway here queen tiye with beautiful straight hair :
in comparison here a nubian mummy :
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ase:
Nah, you didn't. Dear Yvette? Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: In comparison here egyptians :
It's nit wise to go into a picture spam battle, especially when you only have a very small sample set from what is available.
When you show is not what the majority of images show. In fact is makes up less than 10%.
I know you don't comprehend very well.
Predominantly all over Egypt you will find these images (guess what, that's the 90% remainder:
The reason for the is, because of:
quote:Abstract
Post-Pleistocene climatic improvement in the Northern Hemisphere after ca. 9550 BC allowed human populations to recolonize large parts of North Africa in what is today the Sahara Desert. In the Egyptian Western Desert, the beginnings of human occupation date as early as ca. 9300 BC. Occupation continued until the middle of the third millennium BC when final desertification of the area no longer afforded human occupation. The settlement of the Neolithic cattle and sheep/goat herders developed along with the rhythm of alternating wet and dry climatic oscillations. One of the areas occupied intensively during the early and middle Holocene was Gebel Ramlah. Pastoral populations established their settlements around the shores of a paleo-lake adjacent to a rocky massif, to exploit the local savannah environment. During most of the Neolithic, they buried their dead dispersed outside of their settlements. Only during the Final Neolithic (after ca. 4600 BC) did they place them exclusively in cemeteries. Of six Final Neolithic cemeteries investigated at Gebel Ramlah to date, one is entirely unprecedented, not only in North Africa but also globally at such an early date. For just under 200 years (ca. 4500–4300 BC), it served exclusively for the inhumation of infants who died around (perinate) or shortly after the time of birth (neonate). Thirty-two
burial pits contained skeletal remains of 39 individuals, not only infants but also at least two adult females accompanied by perinates/neonates. Older children (> 3 years) were interred at a nearby cemetery that primarily comprised adults.
[…]
The area around Gebel Ramlah was settled since the beginning of the Early Neolithic, and the density of settlement reached its maximum during the El Jerar phase (climatic optimum of the Holocene). Traces from the Middle, Late, and Final Neolithic are less intensive and random. In fact, for the Final Neolithic, we have more information on mortuary behavior than for the settlement pattern and subsistence. Between 4500 and 4300 BC, south-western fringes of the Gebel Ramlah lake served as an extended burial ground for different populations. Different ancestry and relationships of these populations can be followed on the basis of archaeological and, partially, bioarchaeological arguments. Some groups (using cemeteries E-01-2, E-03-1, E-03-2, and E-09-4) show some affiliation with sub-Saharan Africans, readable in the pottery assemblage and other grave goods, as well as some morphological features (Irish 2010; Kobusiewicz and Kabaciński 2010; Czekaj-Zastawny and Kabaciński 2015). These people were certainly mobile, perhaps spending only a few months per year at Gebel Ramlah. The E-09-02 cemeteries for neonates and adults belonged to another, more sedentary group with limited mobility; however, we cannot trace their origins based on the available record. An almost complete lack of grave goods does not allow comparative analyses. On the other hand, peculiar characters of the skeletal remains at these cemeteries—numerous neonatal/perinatal individuals and poorly preserved subadults/adults—do not allow reliable studies based on craniometric or dental data. But, qualitatively, there are no obvious differences among all populations from Gebel Ramlah at the beginning of the Final Neolithic. Thus, the two groups, culturally different, were likely not much different biologically, possibly deriving from the same region of Africa.
[…]
Ethnographic data offer support by showing how radically different children are treated in various African societies (Gottlieb 2004a, b; Pawlik 2004; Kabaciński et al. 2018).
For more see link:
~Agnieszka Czekaj-Zastawny & Tomasz Goslar & Joel D. Irish & Jacek KabacińskiGebel Ramlah—a Unique Newborns’ Cemetery of the Neolithic Sahara African Archaeological Review volume 35, pages393–405(2018) https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10437-018-9307-1 Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ase:
Southern Egyptians that founded the dominant culture were, even if they weren't all black. Nope! they closely matched the phenotypes of the original upper Egyptians. Upper Egyptians clustered between Nubians and Ethiopians.
Again no Upper egyptians were not black and based on your pics they craniometrically plot between horners and other north africans Its probably still the case today. Craniometry means nothing when it comes to skin color.
quote:Originally posted by Ase: Yawn genetics don't ultimately determine who winds up black. You can have people with less SSA ancestry than that but would pass as black. And since you want to play that game let's show:
You'd probably be surprised how common this is. The woman above only has 34 percent European ancestry. 66 percent of her ancestry is from SSA. You can find North Africans that look like this too:
And this woman was probably darker than the skintone given in the reconstruction too.
The woman doesn't even look black lol no one look like her in sub-saharan africa and no one has 34% european ancestry in SSA ...her phenotype is typically from the new world and only americans would consider her as "black" here in europe she would see as "métisse"/biracial. And no the skintone wasn't darker for the reconstruction you have again no evidence for this.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Oh yeah, he's the one 1st or 2nd on notice for whuppin serious Libyan butt, though it's true the Tjehenu are absolutely not related to but feared the Meshwesh (Mazigh ancestral east Maghrebis}. Neuserre and Sahure's exploitation of Tjehenu are the first written documents mentioning eastern Libyan people.
quote: One of the most important temples illustrating the description of the Tehenu people is the temple of the King Sahu-Ra (of the fifth dynasty). The Tehenu were portrayed as * tall people, * dark skinned (or bronze-skinned), * with long black hair, * short pointed beards, * slender faces and * thick lips; features which closely relates them to their relatives from East Africa, such as the Ethiopians, whose languages both were of the same group and both were of East African origin: the Hamito-Semitic family which is now known as Afro-Asiatic.
from temehu.com website by honest fact driven North Africans.
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Nassbean is a moron.
People are talking of King Narmer, Huni, Sahure, Ahmose, Queen Tiye, Amenhotep III and many more. Sahure
- During Sahure's reign expeditions were sent to Byblos in Lebanon, reliefs in his mortuary and valley temple depict a counting of foreigners and the return of a fleet, with a huge cedar tree
- Another inscription depict four cargo ships bringing goods from a foreign expedition to Punt, namely dogs, monkeys and myrrh trees.
- Due to this naval activity, Sahure is credited with establishing the first Egyptian navy.
- He also led a campaign against the Libyans in the north-western desert, which yielded cattle, and showed Sahure smiting the local enemies
- He quarried for turquoise in Sinai at Wadi Maghara, along with the diorite quarries in Nubia
- Sahure also built a sun temple as most of the other 5th Dynasty Pharaohs, but it's location has not been discovered. The textual evidence shows that this temple was named Sekhet-Ra, meaning "The Fields of Ra"
- Sahure was responsible for the construction of the best preserved of the 5th Dynasty pyramid at Abusir
- He also sent the first documented expedition to the land of Punt, inscriptions depicts king Sahure cultivating two potted myrrh tree brought from Punt in his garden.
About 2500 B.C. during the reign of King Sahure, an expedition to Punt returned with 80,000 measures of 'ntyw, which scholars believe to be myrrh. Derived from a tree of the same name, myrrh is a resin used to make incense, which the Egyptians coveted for temple rituals; myrrh was the most prized commodity from Punt. Sahure's expedition also brought back 23,030 staves—wood being precious to a desert country like Egypt—and 6,000 measures of electrum, a natural alloy of gold and silver, among other items.
Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
Nassbean:
You're mentally ill and clearly unravelling; you've based your entire sense of worth on associating yourself with the Nile Valley.
The bust of Narmer is legitimate and is recognised as such, so you'll need to do better than claiming that "specialists" say otherwise.
What about Sahure and Ahmose? What's your facile explanation for that?
So, the AE were so inept that they made Queen Tiye look like a black woman and also made paintings showing themselves to be almost identical to mahogany-brown people further South in Lower Nubia and Punt?
How do do you explain this painting of Tut?
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: In comparison here egyptians :
It's nit wise to go into a picture spam battle, especially when you only have a very small sample set from what is available.
When you show is not what the majority of images show. In fact is makes up less than 10%.
I know you don't comprehend very well.
Predominantly all over Egypt you will find these images (guess what, that's the 90% remainder:
The reason for the is, because of:
quote:Abstract
Post-Pleistocene climatic improvement in the Northern Hemisphere after ca. 9550 BC allowed human populations to recolonize large parts of North Africa in what is today the Sahara Desert. In the Egyptian Western Desert, the beginnings of human occupation date as early as ca. 9300 BC. Occupation continued until the middle of the third millennium BC when final desertification of the area no longer afforded human occupation. The settlement of the Neolithic cattle and sheep/goat herders developed along with the rhythm of alternating wet and dry climatic oscillations. One of the areas occupied intensively during the early and middle Holocene was Gebel Ramlah. Pastoral populations established their settlements around the shores of a paleo-lake adjacent to a rocky massif, to exploit the local savannah environment. During most of the Neolithic, they buried their dead dispersed outside of their settlements. Only during the Final Neolithic (after ca. 4600 BC) did they place them exclusively in cemeteries. Of six Final Neolithic cemeteries investigated at Gebel Ramlah to date, one is entirely unprecedented, not only in North Africa but also globally at such an early date. For just under 200 years (ca. 4500–4300 BC), it served exclusively for the inhumation of infants who died around (perinate) or shortly after the time of birth (neonate). Thirty-two
burial pits contained skeletal remains of 39 individuals, not only infants but also at least two adult females accompanied by perinates/neonates. Older children (> 3 years) were interred at a nearby cemetery that primarily comprised adults.
[…]
The area around Gebel Ramlah was settled since the beginning of the Early Neolithic, and the density of settlement reached its maximum during the El Jerar phase (climatic optimum of the Holocene). Traces from the Middle, Late, and Final Neolithic are less intensive and random. In fact, for the Final Neolithic, we have more information on mortuary behavior than for the settlement pattern and subsistence. Between 4500 and 4300 BC, south-western fringes of the Gebel Ramlah lake served as an extended burial ground for different populations. Different ancestry and relationships of these populations can be followed on the basis of archaeological and, partially, bioarchaeological arguments. Some groups (using cemeteries E-01-2, E-03-1, E-03-2, and E-09-4) show some affiliation with sub-Saharan Africans, readable in the pottery assemblage and other grave goods, as well as some morphological features (Irish 2010; Kobusiewicz and Kabaciński 2010; Czekaj-Zastawny and Kabaciński 2015). These people were certainly mobile, perhaps spending only a few months per year at Gebel Ramlah. The E-09-02 cemeteries for neonates and adults belonged to another, more sedentary group with limited mobility; however, we cannot trace their origins based on the available record. An almost complete lack of grave goods does not allow comparative analyses. On the other hand, peculiar characters of the skeletal remains at these cemeteries—numerous neonatal/perinatal individuals and poorly preserved subadults/adults—do not allow reliable studies based on craniometric or dental data. But, qualitatively, there are no obvious differences among all populations from Gebel Ramlah at the beginning of the Final Neolithic. Thus, the two groups, culturally different, were likely not much different biologically, possibly deriving from the same region of Africa.
[…]
Ethnographic data offer support by showing how radically different children are treated in various African societies (Gottlieb 2004a, b; Pawlik 2004; Kabaciński et al. 2018).
For more see link:
~Agnieszka Czekaj-Zastawny & Tomasz Goslar & Joel D. Irish & Jacek KabacińskiGebel Ramlah—a Unique Newborns’ Cemetery of the Neolithic Sahara African Archaeological Review volume 35, pages393–405(2018) https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10437-018-9307-1
I don't see any black features and their skin is similar to modern upper egyptians but if you want more pics no problem :
Here ramses II giving a good lesson to afrocentrists :
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
Southern Egyptians that founded the dominant culture were, even if they weren't all black. Nope! they closely matched the phenotypes of the original upper Egyptians. Upper Egyptians clustered between Nubians and Ethiopians. BLAH BLAH BLAH … "it's true because I SAY SO"!
You are terrible at math. This is what 90% of aalllllll the ancient Egyptians art looks like!
I can tell that you have NEVER, NEVUUUR been to Egypt. lol
quote:"Many of the sites reveal evidence of important interactions between Nilotic and Saharan groups during the formative phases of the Egyptian Predynastic Period (e.g. Wadi el-Hôl, Rayayna, Nuq’ Menih, Kurkur Oasis). Other sites preserve important information regarding the use of the desert routes during the Protodynastic and Pharaonic Periods, particularly during periods of political and military turmoil in the Nile Valley (e.g. Gebel Tjauti, Wadi el-Hôl)."
quote: “There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.
In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas
[...]
Any interpretation of the biological affinities of the ancient Egyptians must be placed in the context of hypothesis informed by the archaeological, linguistic, geographic or other data.
In this context the physical anthropological evidence indicates that the early Nile Valley populations can be identified as part of an African lineage, but exhibiting local variation.
This variation represents the short and long term effects of evolutionary forces, such as gene flow, genetic drift, and natural selection influenced by culture and geography"
~Kathryn A. Bard (STEPHEN E. THOMPSON) Egyptians, physical anthropology of Physical anthropology
quote:"The Mahalanobis D2 analysis uncovered close affinities between Nubians and Egyptians. [B]Table 3 lists the Mahalanobis D2 distance matrix. As there is no significance testing that is available to be applied to this form of Mahalanobis distances, the biodistance scores must be interpreted in relation to one another, rather than on a general scale. In some cases, the statistics reveal that the Egyptian samples were more similar to Nubian samples than to other Egyptian samples (e.g. Gizeh and Hesa/Biga) and vice versa (e.g. Badari and Kerma, Naqada and Christian).
These relationships are further depicted in the PCO plot (Fig. 2). Aside from these interpopulation relationships, some Nubian groups are still more similar to other Nubians and some Egyptians are more similar to other Egyptian samples. [B]Moreover, although the Nubian and Egyptian samples formed one well-distributed group, the Egyptian samples clustered in the upper left region, while the Nubians concentrated in the lower right of the plot. One line can be drawn that would separate the closely dispersed Egyptians and Nubians. The predynastic Egyptian samples clustered together (Badari and Naqada), while Gizeh most closely groups with the Lisht sample. The first two principal coordinates from PCO account for 60% of the variation in the samples. The graph from PCO is basically a pictorial representation of the distance matrix and interpretations from the plot mirror the Mahalanobis D2 matrix.”
~Godde K. An Examination of Nubian and Egyptian biological distances: Support for biological diffusion or in situ development? Homo. 2009;60(5):389-404. Epub 2009 Sep 19.
quote:“Abstract
The process of the peopling of the Nile Valley likely shaped the population structure and early biological similarity of Egyptians and Nubians. As others have noted, affinity among Nilotic populations was due to an aggregation of events, including environmental, linguistic, and sociopolitical changes over a great deal of time. This study seeks to evaluate the relationships of Nubian and Egyptian groups in the context of the original peopling event. Cranial nonmetric traits from 18 Nubian and Egyptian samples, spanning Lower Egypt to Lower Nubia and approximately 7400 years were analyzed using Mahalanobis D2 as a measure of biological distance. A principal coordinates analysis and spatial-temporal model were applied to these data. The results reveal temporal and spatial patterning consistent with documented events in Egyptian and Nubian population history. Moreover, the Mesolithic Nubian sample clustered with later Nubian and Egyptian samples, indicating that events prior to the Mesolithic were important in shaping the later genetic patterning of the Nubian population. Later contact through the establishment of the Egyptian fort at Buhen, Kerma’s position as a strategic trade center along the Nile, and Egyptian colonization at Tombos maintained genetic similarity among the populations”
~Godde K July 2018 A new analysis interpreting Nilotic relationships and peopling of the Nile Valley
quote: "The question of the genetic origins of ancient Egyptians, particularly those during the Dynastic period, is relevant to the current study. Modern interpretations of Egyptian state formation propose an indigenous origin of the Dynastic civilization (Hassan, 1988). Early Egyptologists considered Upper and Lower Egyptians to be genetically distinct populations, and viewed the Dynastic period as characterized by a conquest of Upper Egypt by the Lower Egyptians. More recent interpretations contend that Egyptians from the south actually expanded into the northern regions during the Dynastic state unification (Hassan, 1988; Savage, 2001), and that the Predynastic populations of Upper and Lower Egypt are morphologically distinct from one another, but not sufficiently distinct to consider either non-indigenous (Zakrzewski, 2007). The Predynastic populations studied here, from Naqada and Badari, are both Upper Egyptian samples, while the Dynastic Egyptian sample (Tarkhan) is from Lower Egypt. The Dynastic Nubian sample is from Upper Nubia (Kerma). Previous analyses of cranial variation found the Badari and Early Predynastic Egyptians to be more similar to other African groups than to Mediterranean or European populations (Keita, 1990; Zakrzewski, 2002). In addition, the Badarians have been described as near the centroid of cranial and dental variation among Predynastic and Dynastic populations studied (Irish, 2006; Zakrzewski, 2007). This suggests that, at least through the Early Dynastic period, the inhabitants of the Nile valley were a continuous population of local origin, and no major migration or replacement events occurred during this time.
Studies of cranial morphology also support the use of a Nubian (Kerma) population for a comparison of the Dynastic period, as this group is likely to be more closely genetically related to the early Nile valley inhabitants than would be the Late Dynastic Egyptians, who likely experienced significant mixing with other Mediterranean populations (Zakrzewski, 2002). A craniometric study found the Naqada and Kerma populations to be morphologically similar (Keita, 1990). Given these and other prior studies suggesting continuity (Berry et al., 1967; Berry and Berry, 1972), and the lack of archaeological evidence of major migration or population replacement during the Neolithic transition in the Nile valley, we may cautiously interpret the dental health changes over time as primarily due to ecological, subsistence, and demographic changes experienced throughout the Nile valley region.”
~AP Starling, JT Stock. (2007), Dental Indicators of Health and Stress in Early Egyptian and Nubian Agriculturalists: A Difficult Transition and Gradual Recovery. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 134:520–528 Introduction to Research at Naqada Region
Now, go cry yourself asleep.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Where did I say Visigoths controlled North Africa you illiterate pig?
I said your nomadic Berber(Barbarian) ancestors were in awe of the culture they encountered in Visigothic Hispania that they conquered.
The Ave. IQ of North Africa ranges from 81-84, on par or lower than the Ave. for African Americans you little barbarian(Berber)
You people didnt create anything during the heyday of Andalusia, that was done by Muwalladun Convert Europeans(Native Spanish and Saqalibba), Jews and Eastern Syrian/Persian influenced Arabs.
The first time Berbers gained a foothold was by the dark skinned Almoravids...
So stop stealing Spanish Moorish culture you Barbarian(Berber)
As far as Morocco goes...African Americans have a right to identify with Morocco, considering this is who were representing Morocco to Europeans and the world
Source: The Illustrated London News, 15 June 1901, p 853 The Moorish Embassy {1901} For the first time since the reign of Charles II., a Moorish Embassy has waited upon the British Sovereign. The mission, which has been sent by the Sultan of Morocco to congratulate King Edward on his accession, arrived at Portsmouth on June 6.
17th painting depicting the ruler of the Hafsid dynasty King Mulay Ahmad of Tunisia 🇹🇳
17th century caricature of Moulay al-Rashid of Morocco 🇲🇦
Mulay Slimane or Suleiman (1766 – 28 November 1822) was the Sultan of Morocco from 1792 to 1822. Slimane was one of five sons of Mohammed III who fought a civil war for control of the kingdom. Slimane emerged victorious in 1795, and the country remained largely passive for the subsequent decades of his rule. He was a member of the Alaouite dynasty.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] You're 100% right brotha Al, look at how he gets when pushed into a corner(I even went easy on him lol)...Baal quoted him before he edited...
Its how they get, been licking the boots of Cathage, Romans, and Visogothic Spaniards for so long they want to be whiter than the whites...
To bad Europeans cant stand them...
I was gonna post about the IQ of his Coastal Nomadic ancestors, who needed outside help to create any sort of high culture....but I respect Amazigh, like the ones who host a dark skinned Tunisian as authentic Amazigh...
No need to roll in the mud with a pig..
Visigoths never controlled north africa but ok ...
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by N assbean: Here ramses II giving a good lesson to afrocentrists :
What you are showing is still under 10%. And Ramses himself was African. So that babble made no sense.
Go learn basic history first, before you make a fool out of yourself once more!
quote:"The ancient Egyptians were not 'white' in any European sense, nor were they 'Caucasian'... we can say that the earliest population of ancient Egypt included African people from the upper Nile, African people from the regions of the Sahara and modern Libya, and smaller numbers of people who had come from south-western Asia and perhaps the Arabian penisula."
~Robert Morkot (2005). The Egyptians: An Introduction. pp. 12-13
quote:Ancient finds in the Western Desert of Egypt at Gebel Ramlah circa 5,000 BC show culture closely linked with indigenous tropical Africans of both the Saharan and sub-Saharan regions, not Europe or the Middle East. Dental studies put the inhabitants of Gebel Ramlah, closest to indigenous tropical African populations.
~Michal Kobusiewicz, Jacek Kabacinski, Romuald Schild, Joel D. Irish and Fred Wendorf
Burial practices of the Final Neolithic pastoralists at Gebel Ramlah, Western Desert of Egypt
British Museum Studies in Ancient Egypt and Sudan 13 (2009): 147–74
Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: I've already said that nubians from the land of wawat had the same skin tone as upper egyptians ...Moreover queen tiye or narmer were not negroid nor black.
Also people should stop posting pictures of little unpainted statues made of oxidised wood.
Here how kushites portrayed themselves (completely different from ancient egyptians) :
They also complained about me posting busts from the New Kingdom because according to them they all represent mixed asiatic individuals but strangely posting queen tiye from the XVIIIth dynasty is not a problem. You see the hypocrisy here ?
anyway here queen tiye with beautiful straight hair :
in comparison here a nubian mummy :
So you concede that the "Nubians" of Wawat and Punt looked most like the founders of the Egyptian civilization?
It's nice that you've conceded that the people that created virtually all the material elements of Egyptian civilization and were the demographic majority from the predynastic until the New Kingdom period, looked like like people in Sudanese kingdoms.
You seem to think that black means Bantu, so you lash out when people point out that Upper Egyptians were related to other Northeast Africans.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: So you concede that the "Nubians" of Wawat and Punt looked most like the founders of the Egyptian civilization?
It's nice that you've conceded that the people that created virtually all the material elements of Egyptian civilization and were the demographic majority from the predynastic until the New Kingdom period, looked like like people in Sudanese kingdoms.
You seem to think that black means Bantu, so you lash out when people point out that Upper Egyptians were related to other Northeast Africans. [/QB]
lol even today lower nubians have the same skin tone as upper egyptians nothing has changed.
Here upper egyptians :
and here lower nubians "from the land of wawat" :
You all are delusional if you think ancient egyptians looked like this :
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
My use of Visigoth is technically inaccurate. Vandals are Goths and much of their history is in western Europe but though western Goths no they are not proper Visigoths by any stretch.
I'm not out to win a debate. I'm out to increase factual knowledge and reasonable hypothesized new paradigms.
Others pushing Northafrocen-tricks refuse to precision themselves when confronted with facts disconfirming propaganda
quote:Procopius Book III Justinian's wars:
"There were many Gothic nations in earlier times, just as also at the present, but the greatest and most important of all are the Goths, Vandals, Visigoths, and Gepaedes.
All these, while they are distinguished from one another by their names, as has been said, do not differ in anything else at all. For they all have white bodies and fair hair and are tall and handsome to look upon, and they use the same laws and practice a common religion. For they are all of the Arian faith, and have one language called Gothic; and, as it seems to me, they all came originally from one tribe, and were distinguished later by the names of those who led each group."
.
Only technically a Gothic people in the west, Vandals conquered and colonized the Maghreb after actual Visigoths proper defeated them in Spain.
But propaganda can be heedless of fact as its geared to rouse emotion not intellect,
Its how they get, been licking the boots of Cathage, Romans, and Visogothic Spaniards for so long they want to be whiter than the whites...
I was gonna post about the IQ of his Coastal Nomadic ancestors, who needed outside help to create any sort of high culture....but I respect Amazigh,
No need to roll in the mud with a pig..
Visigoths never controlled north africa but ok ..
Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
Where have I claimed that the AE looked like African-Americans? I've always intimated AE with certain kingdoms in Sudan, so how do I lose here? AE was created by a group of closely related people in Upper Egypt and North Sudan -- Nile Valley cultures. Your coastal Berber had nothing to do with this, so concentrate on your Maghrebi history.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
Here reconstruction of the face of Ramses II made by japanese specialists from the university of Kanagawa :
So now even japaneses are eurocentrists who hide the truth or is ramses a canaanite invader ?? LOOL
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Where have I claimed that the AE looked like African-Americans? I've always intimated AE with certain kingdoms in Sudan, so how do I lose here? AE was created by a group of closely related people in Upper Egypt and North Sudan -- Nile Valley cultures. Your coastal Berber had nothing to do with this, so concentrate on your Maghrebi history.
I've never denied this
Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Here reconstruction of the face of Ramses II made by japanese specialists from the university of Kanagawa :
So now even japaneses are eurocentrists who hide the truth or is ramses a canaanite invader ?? LOOL
The colour cannot be inferred from reconstructions, but the features are not alien to parts of Sudan, so what do you imagine you've accomplished here?
You have finally understood that AE was created by people resembling certain Sudanese and their kin in Upper Egypt, so why are you still talking? Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Oh Im fully aware of this. Ive studied Islamic and Moorish history for years.
Ive actually read books, unlike the Bio-diversity google scholars.
I also know their dirty little secret, that being Bidane is passed on paternally, or that the people who currently control many of the Sanhadja or Saharan Berber manuscripts look like this...
“They compare favorably with [those of] Maghribi societies of an earlier date.” Adds Muhammad Shahab Ahmed, a historian of Arab philosophy and a fellow at Harvard University, “The fact that the only existing copy of a work by Averroës has been preserved in Mauritania is a remarkable illustration of the southern migration of the scholarly corpus of al-Andalus and the Maghrib”—Muslim Spain and North Africa.
Mohameden Ould Ahmad Salem is a young self-taught calligrapher who recently published his university thesis on the history and development of Mauritanian scripts. “Many people think Mauritanian scripts are purely derivative of Maghribi styles,” he says, “but this is not so. At a very early period, [/b]we adopted Andalusi calligraphy, which in Morocco developed into Maghribi, but we went our own way with it.
[b]“Historians said that Andalusi script had long ago disappeared, but the more I looked at Mauritanian scripts, the more they looked like Andalusi. If you compare an Andalusi manuscript from the 12th century and a Mauritanian manuscript from the 19th century, they are so close in style that they could be by the same calligrapher.”
These are the descendants of the first Berbers to gain full state wide 1st class power in Andalus. Tafia's be damned.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Jari asked: Why are you bringing up slaves?
Remember the words of Eldridge Cleaver, not that I admire him in any way whatsoever.
The reasons Nassabe keeps mentioning slaves is the word for slave and the word for an African black are exactly the same in many Arabic speaking countries and most Tamazight speaking peoples.
That's something non-continental blk ppl dom't understand or if known to them gets compartmentalized since free people of African descent in Indo-European speaking lands have seperate terms for a blk person and for a slave.
Arab and Arabic speakers in Euro descent dominated nations are surprised and embarrassed when confronted from facts from their homeland are thrown in their face by a non-continental African by descent. Why? So many of them under 40 have adapted Hip Hop culture and throw around the word nigger even calling each other bitch ass nigger as a jibe and of course the kids and the lower class blx won't bust em in the lip like most blx used to do when anybody but a Spanish speaker uses the word.
Negrita means sweetheart just like blk grlz last millenium called their boyfriend that's my nigger. Negra is reserved for a "wife" and otherwise is an insult.
Gone are the days when young blx would smack the shiss outta anybody else flying the N bomb.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Here reconstruction of the face of Ramses II made by japanese specialists from the university of Kanagawa :
So now even japaneses are eurocentrists who hide the truth or is ramses a canaanite invader ?? LOOL
The colour cannot be inferred from reconstructions, but the features are not alien to parts of Sudan, so what do you imagine you've accomplished here?
You have finally understood that AE was created by people resembling certain Sudanese and their kin in Upper Egypt, so why are you still talking?
Actually they can :
"In 1975, the mummy of Ramesses II was taken to France for preservation. The mummy was also forensically tested by Professor Pierre-Fernand Ceccaldi, the chief forensic scientist at the Criminal Identification Laboratory of Paris. Professor Ceccaldi determined that: "Hair, astonishingly preserved, showed some complementary data - especially about pigmentation: Ramses II was a ginger haired ' cymnotricheleucoderma'." The description given here refers to a fair-skinned person with wavy ginger hair.[70][71] Subsequent microscopic inspection of the roots of Ramesses II's hair proved that the king's hair originally was red, which suggests that he came from a family of redheads.[72] This has more than just cosmetic significance: in ancient Egypt people with red hair were associated with the deity Set, the slayer of Osiris, and the name of Ramesses II's father, Seti I, means "follower of Seth."[73]"
And I've only said that I don't deny the fact that the craddle of the egyptian civilization was in upper egypt ....but saying that all egyptians throughout all the eras looked like nubians is far-fetched and not true at all. Most egyptians and pharaohs looked like other middle easterners and north africans.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
One minute Authentic North Africans, the next SSA mixed slaves..
Ill continue to post this, you wont get away with it...
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
Here upper egyptians :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
These people descend from haratins I already explained you multiple times they are way less indigenous than the white skinned berbers :
Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
Nassbean:
So you think that the majority of the native Dynasties came from Lower Egypt? What evidence do you have for this?
Upper Egypt was dominant for most of Egyptian history; it was dominant demographically, militarily, economically, politically and culturally, so I find it impossible for the Eurasian admixed Lower Egyptians to be dominant. .
Lower Egypt was nothing before the South conquered and absorbed it, so how do you imagine they had more Pharaohs?
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
Again this jari talking like if the trans-saharan slave trade never happened and he himself admit that " being Bidane is passed on paternally" so if these berber mixed with black slaves it clearly affect the genetic pool and phenotypes of those berber descendents.
Anyway here the reality :
"Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) variation was analyzed in Mauritania and Mali, and compared to other West African samples covering the considerable geographic, ethnic and linguistic diversity of this region. The Mauritanian mtDNA profile shows that 55% of their lineages have a west Eurasian provenance, with the U6 cluster (17%) being the best represented. Only 6% of the sub-Saharan sequences belong to the L3A haplogroup a frequency similar to other Berber speaking groups but significantly different to the Arabic speaking North Africans. The historic Arab slave trade may be the main cause of this difference. "
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: One minute Authentic North Africans, the next SSA mixed slaves..
Ill continue to post this, you wont get away with it...
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
Here upper egyptians :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
These people descend from haratins I already explained you multiple times they are way less indigenous than the white skinned berbers :
So according to your logic upper egyptians can be compared to haratin in tunisia just based on skin color ??? with that logic indians are related to upper egyptians and are indigenous to north africa ...You can't compare the two the maghreb has a way different genetic history than Egypt. Let alone the trans-saharan slave trade.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Here the barbarian(Berber) tries to use Wa-Wat Neheshi as proof of black victims of racist Ancient Egyptians...
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
While this one isn't photoshopped and clearly show the reality back then :
Now he claiming Wa-Wat Neheshi as authentic North African, seperate from True Negro blacks..
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: [QUOTE]lol even today lower nubians have the same skin tone as upper egyptians nothing has changed. [/IMG]
This is what happens when a bio-diversity google scholar steps outside of his safe space...
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Nassbean:
So you think that the majority of the native Dynasties came from Lower Egypt? What evidence do you have for this?
Upper Egypt was dominant for most of Egyptian history; it was dominant demographically, militarily, economically, politically and culturally, so I find it impossible for the Eurasian admixed Lower Egyptians to be dominant. .
Lower Egypt was nothing before the South conquered and absorbed it, so how do you imagine they had more Pharaohs?
Why do you oversimplify everything like that ?? only people from the southernmost part of upper egypt looked like their nubian neighbours but most egyptians (included upper egyptians) looked quite homogeneous there was not a big contrast between upper and lower egypt as you try to imply. Also elites are not always a good representation of all the egyptian population.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: So according to your logic upper egyptians can be compared to haratin in tunisia just based on skin color ???
Where did I say that you illiterate pig? Im posting YOUR Posts, you imbicile.
quote:with that logic indians are related to upper egyptians and are indigenous to north africa ...You can't compare the two the maghreb has a way different genetic history than Egypt. Let alone the trans-saharan slave trade. [/QB]
So then you admit that populations with skin tone you called black/SSA in one post is native to North Africa then...
got it moving on...
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Here the barbarian(Berber) tries to use Wa-Wat Neheshi as proof of black victims of racist Ancient Egyptians...
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: [qb]
While this one isn't photoshopped and clearly show the reality back then :
Now he claiming Wa-Wat Neheshi as authentic North African, seperate from True Negro blacks..
This is what happens when a bio-diversity google scholar steps outside of his safe space...
Lol so now wawat nubians are the same as the nubians from the land of kush ? that's not what we see on the walls lol
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: So according to your logic upper egyptians can be compared to haratin in tunisia just based on skin color ???
Where did I say that you illiterate pig? Im posting YOUR Posts, you imbicile.
quote:with that logic indians are related to upper egyptians and are indigenous to north africa ...You can't compare the two the maghreb has a way different genetic history than Egypt. Let alone the trans-saharan slave trade.
So then you admit that populations with skin tone you called black/SSA in one post is native to North Africa then...
got it moving on... [/QB]
None of the people I posted looked black or are black skinned...
Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
Here's a map of Egypt. Do you see that red circle around that small sliver of land? That's Lower Egypt.
"It is nonetheless probable that settlements were far more dispersed than they were in Upper Egypt, that overall population density was significantly lower, and that the northernmost one-third of the Delta was ALMOST UNDERPOPULATED in Old Kingdom times. In effect, a considerable body of information can be marshalled to show that the Delta was UNDERDEVELOPED and that internal colonization continued for some three millennia, until the late Ptolemaic era."
There is a chart in the source above showing the demographic reality in AE.
The chart is broken up into 3 categories. A standing for cultivable land in square km. B standing for population density per square km. And C standing for hypothetical population in thousands.
Lower Egypt does not eclipse Upper Egypt in the two columns concerning population numbers -- B and C at any period in that chart. The population of Lower Egypt is considerably smaller than Upper Egypt in all the cited periods and only approaches the population of Upper Egypt relatively late - at 150 B.C, when (I assume) advances in technology would have enabled the complete drainage of the marshes in the Delta.
Most ancient Egyptians (Pharaohs included) looked like the people of Wawat and Punt -- not Middle-Easterners.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
The is no identifying source that this is Kush,
This scene comes from a temple built in Wa-Wat
"The Beit el-Wali temple is located in the area south of Egypt known to the Egyptians as Wawat, and to us as ancient 'Nubia'."
The Red Nubians are the exact same color as the Egyptians..be they Kushi or Wa-Wat Neheshi
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Here the barbarian(Berber) tries to use Wa-Wat Neheshi as proof of black victims of racist Ancient Egyptians...
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: [qb]
While this one isn't photoshopped and clearly show the reality back then :
Now he claiming Wa-Wat Neheshi as authentic North African, seperate from True Negro blacks..
This is what happens when a bio-diversity google scholar steps outside of his safe space...
Lol so now wawat nubians are the same as the nubians from the land of kush ? that's not what we see on the walls lol
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
One minute Authentic North Africans, the next SSA mixed slaves..
Ill continue to post this, you wont get away with it...
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
Here upper egyptians :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
These people descend from haratins I already explained you multiple times they are way less indigenous than the white skinned berbers :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Nassbean: So according to your logic upper egyptians can be compared to haratin in tunisia just based on skin color ???
None of the people I posted looked black or are black skinned...
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
and the beat goes on...
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: lol even today lower nubians have the same skin tone as upper egyptians nothing has changed.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
and here lower nubians "from the land of wawat" :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
These people descend from haratins I already explained you multiple times they are way less indigenous than the white skinned berbers :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: None of the people I posted looked black or are black skinned... [/qb]
[/QB][/QUOTE]
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: So you concede that the "Nubians" of Wawat and Punt looked most like the founders of the Egyptian civilization?
It's nice that you've conceded that the people that created virtually all the material elements of Egyptian civilization and were the demographic majority from the predynastic until the New Kingdom period, looked like like people in Sudanese kingdoms.
You seem to think that black means Bantu, so you lash out when people point out that Upper Egyptians were related to other Northeast Africans.
lol even today lower nubians have the same skin tone as upper egyptians nothing has changed.
You are the only one who is posting images of West Africans and making these rhetorical crazy arguments. And only a fool laughs at his own stupidity. smh
Hmmm ancient Egyptians (90% of the images all over Egypt):
quote: Figure 1: Images of North African prehistoric rock and cave paintings. From (a, b) Swimmer’s Cave (Wadi Sura, southern Egypt), (c) the Ennedi massif (northeastern Chad) and (d) Zolat el Hammad, Wadi Howar (northern Sudan).
Evidence for the African Humid Period
The Early Holocene AHP is one of the most thoroughly documented and well-dated climate change events in the geologic record, and the number and diversity of paleoclimate records is remarkable (COHMAP Members, 1988; deMenocal et al., 2000; Gasse, 2000; Hoelzmann et al., 1998; Jolly, 1998; Kroepelin, 2008; Kuper and Kröpelin, 2006). Through these terrestrial and marine records we can document both the timing and extent of the humid interval.
Geological evidence for past lake basins in the Sahara are commonly found near interdune depressions and other low-lying regions, where ancient lake bed sediment outcrops and shoreline deposits are exposed. Most of the early Holocene paleolakes were small, but numerous and widespread (Figure 2b). Some lake basins in North Africa were exceptionally large, as large as the Caspian Sea today. These so-called megalakes occurred in the North (Megalake Fezzan, Libya), South (Megalake Chad, Chad/Niger/Nigeria), West (Chotts Megalakes, Algeria) and East (Megalakes Turkana and Kenya) (Drake and Bristow, 2006). Based on their stratigraphic records, these must have been permanent, open-basin lakes, indicating that annual moisture supply exceeded evaporation for many millennia during the AHP, even in the driest regions of the modern-day Sahara.
A continent-wide compilation of past lake-level reconstructions (the Oxford Lake Level Database (OLLD) (COHMAP Members, 1988; Street-Perrott et al., 1989)) updated with lake-level reconstructions published in the last twenty years (Tierney et al., 2011) chronicles the changes in lake levels that occurred across Africa as a result of the African Humid Period (Figure 2b). This database classifies lakes as "low" (lake is within 0–15% of its potential volume or dry), "intermediate" (lake is within 15–70% of its potential volume) or "high" (lake is within 70–100% of its potential volume or overflowing) every 1000 years during the late-glacial period and the Holocene. The difference in lake levels at 9000 years — the height of the African Humid Period — relative to the conditions today shows that the extent of the AHP across the continent was vast — extending from the far northern Sahara to as far south as 10˚S in East Africa (Figure 3).
Paleoclimate and archaeological evidence tells us that, 11,000-5,000 years ago, the Earth's slow orbital 'wobble' transformed today's Sahara desert to a land covered with vegetation and lakes.
So you think that the majority of the native Dynasties came from Lower Egypt? What evidence do you have for this?
Upper Egypt was dominant for most of Egyptian history; it was dominant demographically, militarily, economically, politically and culturally, so I find it impossible for the Eurasian admixed Lower Egyptians to be dominant. .
Lower Egypt was nothing before the South conquered and absorbed it, so how do you imagine they had more Pharaohs?
Why do you oversimplify everything like that ?? only people from the southernmost part of upper egypt looked like their nubian neighbours but most egyptians (included upper egyptians) looked quite homogeneous there was not a big contrast between upper and lower egypt as you try to imply. Also elites are not always a good representation of all the egyptian population.
What on earth are you on about? So you object to the existence of a phenotypical distinction between Upper Egyptians and Lower Egyptians, but think that it's perfectly reasonable to argue for this distinction within Upper Egypt itself?
What evidence do you have that only the people in Aswan, and Luxor looked like each other and that the other Upper Egyptians were more like you, all the way on the Coast in the Maghreb? You're delusional.
In either case, it just so happens that most ancient Egyptians were concentrated around Aswan and Luxor:
quote:Karl Butzer has estimated that two areas of greatest population denisty in dyanstic times were between Luxor{Waset} and Aswan {Elephantine} at the first cataract,and from Medium at the fayum entrance northwards to the apex of the Delta. IN between was Middle Egypt,a geogrpahic buffer zone with a lower population density. It is worth bearing in mind that the total population of egypt at the time the Giza pyramids were built is estimated to have been 1.6 million,compared with 58 million in Ad 1995.
Page 7
Mark Lehner
THe complete Pyramids
You should also understand that the Faiyum was actually part of Upper Egypt until the concept of "Middle Egypt" was created in the 19th Century for administrative purposes.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
More Bio-Diversity circular reasoning by the coastal barbarian-centric(Berber)
one is 30-40% SSA, the other is authentic non-black North Africans
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: [QUOTE]Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [qb] They have quite significant Iranian and Arab ancestry, could be a remnant from the various Caliphates that ruled North Africa.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: lol even today lower nubians have the same skin tone as upper egyptians nothing has changed.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
and here lower nubians "from the land of wawat" :
BTW, here is that Image of the Tunisian president and (Mixed)Obama and Michelle(Full African American)...
beating a dead f-king horse at this point..
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Flay the hide of the dead horsie prep te carcass for dog food render the fat for soap the bones for whatever
CODIS STR genetics of Amenhotep III
Somali individuals are closest to this Pharaoh. Upper Egyptians and Sudanis are nearly as close. This is expected for Northeast Africans as they all are.
Bantu speakers from Kenya and South Africa, Mbuti (Great Lakes, Congo), and Yoruba all are closer than Mzabi who have but one locus in common with this dynasty founding pharaoh.
Atlantic Africans sampled furthest away.
Mzabi alleles in common with A III peak or originate in these peoples
* Bantu speaking South Africans: D2S1338 = 16; FGA = 23 * Mbuti residents of Rainforest: D13S317 = 10; D16S539 = 8; D18S51 = 16 * San people of southern Africa: D16S539 = 13
The Uah ka (sp) nobility of AE is a sound alike of Waka a Galla deity Complete conjoint facial features of AE and Galla are in the archive.
Somalia is a "sub-Sahara Africa" country same longitude as * South Sudan * Central African Republic * Cameroon * Benin * Togo * Ghana * Cote de Voire * Liberia * Sierra Leone
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
even if his delusion was true, these people were a vital part of Ancient Egyptian history, more so than his Coastal Barbarian(Berber) ancestors.
Even the 26th Dynasty Saharans painted themselves in 25th Dynasty style...Even the Kushi Neheshi played their part, Taraqo and Kushites revitalized Classical Km.t and Saites utilized their innovations..
^^^^ Which one is Kushite and which is Saite Lybians?
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Nassbean:
So you think that the majority of the native Dynasties came from Lower Egypt? What evidence do you have for this?
Upper Egypt was dominant for most of Egyptian history; it was dominant demographically, militarily, economically, politically and culturally, so I find it impossible for the Eurasian admixed Lower Egyptians to be dominant. .
Lower Egypt was nothing before the South conquered and absorbed it, so how do you imagine they had more Pharaohs?
Why do you oversimplify everything like that ?? only people from the southernmost part of upper egypt looked like their nubian neighbours but most egyptians (included upper egyptians) looked quite homogeneous there was not a big contrast between upper and lower egypt as you try to imply. Also elites are not always a good representation of all the egyptian population.
What on earth are you on about? What evidence do you have that only the people in Aswan, and Luxor looked like each other and that the other Upper Egyptians were more like you, all the way on the Coast in the Maghreb? You're delusional.
In either case, it just so happens that most ancient Egyptians were concentrated around Aswan and Luxor:
quote:Karl Butzer has estimated that two areas of greatest population denisty in dyanstic times were between Luxor{Waset} and Aswan {Elephantine} at the first cataract,and from Medium at the fayum entrance northwards to the apex of the Delta. IN between was Middle Egypt,a geogrpahic buffer zone with a lower population density. It is worth bearing in mind that the total population of egypt at the time the Giza pyramids were built is estimated to have been 1.6 million,compared with 58 million in Ad 1995.
Page 7
Mark Lehner
THe complete Pyramids
You should also understand that the Faiyum was actually part of Upper Egypt until the concept of "Middle Egypt" was created in the 19th Century for administrative purposes.
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: The is no identifying source that this is Kush,
This scene comes from a temple built in Wa-Wat
"The Beit el-Wali temple is located in the area south of Egypt known to the Egyptians as Wawat, and to us as ancient 'Nubia'."
The Red Nubians are the exact same color as the Egyptians..be they Kushi or Wa-Wat Neheshi
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Here the barbarian(Berber) tries to use Wa-Wat Neheshi as proof of black victims of racist Ancient Egyptians...
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: [qb]
While this one isn't photoshopped and clearly show the reality back then :
Now he claiming Wa-Wat Neheshi as authentic North African, seperate from True Negro blacks..
This is what happens when a bio-diversity google scholar steps outside of his safe space...
Lol so now wawat nubians are the same as the nubians from the land of kush ? that's not what we see on the walls lol
He took that crap from Reddit, where even there is has been removed.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Again this jari talking like if the trans-saharan slave trade never happened and he himself admit that " being Bidane is passed on paternally" so if these berber mixed with black slaves it clearly affect the genetic pool and phenotypes of those berber descendents.
Anyway here the reality :
"Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) variation was analyzed in Mauritania and Mali, and compared to other West African samples covering the considerable geographic, ethnic and linguistic diversity of this region. The Mauritanian mtDNA profile shows that 55% of their lineages have a west Eurasian provenance, with the U6 cluster (17%) being the best represented. Only 6% of the sub-Saharan sequences belong to the L3A haplogroup a frequency similar to other Berber speaking groups but significantly different to the Arabic speaking North Africans. The historic Arab slave trade may be the main cause of this difference. "
Although the above is nonsense. Still, here is where you start to become desperate. Up to the point that you try to impose that something as degenerate, as if enslaving another people is something great to brag about.
So now even japaneses are eurocentrists who hide the truth or is ramses a canaanite invader ?? LOOL
I think you have an improper understanding of how Egyptian history happened. Throughout Egyptian history Native Upper Egyptians mixed with non-black Lower Egyptians AND Asiatic immigrants. The Asiatics didn't see themselves as "invaders" but as citizens that deserved the right to lead the country just as any other Egyptian. However many of the southern rulers called them invaders because they didn't agree.
Asiatics that immigrated and mixed with locals. Ramses II was born around 1300 B.C. Several hundred years after Asiatics had began moving into Egypt in response to the Sahara reaching modern aridity and displacing people from their initial lands. And through all that Upper Egyptians also had thousands of years of mixing with lower non-black Egyptians. Two sources of mixing to dilute black features found in the original upper Egyptians. It would not surprise me if Ramses had some Semetic features or wasn't black at all. But if so, he wouldn't have had the most common phenotype of the original Upper Egyptians, but a mix of northern Egyptians and Asiatics.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: And I've only said that I don't deny the fact that the craddle of the egyptian civilization was in upper egypt ....but saying that all egyptians throughout all the eras looked like nubians is far-fetched and not true at all.
uh...thanks for debunking something we generally don't even argue here? I for one have been saying the opposite.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Most egyptians and pharaohs looked like other middle easterners and north africans.
Most UPPER Egyptians that were the ORIGINAL founders looked like Ethiopians and Nubians. No one was arguing ALL Egyptians through all eras looked like them. But that the founders DID.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Amenhotep III
.
Head of Amenophis III (Amenhotep III) from the tomb of Onsou, 18th Dynasty, 1550-1295 BC (mural) Louvre Museum, Paris, France
Nassbean, above are two depictions of Amenhotep III. Wouldn't you agree they could pass for a West African?
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
Upper egyptians don't look like haratin at all so your comparison Mr.Jari is ridiculous :
haratin :
While upper egyptians with non recent ssa admixture look like this :
What you still don't understand is that some north africans have recent haratin ancestors and so a big ssa component :
here for example a berber man who is married to a haratin woman
here a member of the royal guard (descendent of the abid al bukhari)
they are not fully haratin but have a big ssa component that's why their skin can appear as similar to some upper egyptians.
For example, You can have nilote looking people being indigenous to north africa and at the same time black skinned people being non indigenous because of recent foreign admixture
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
The Mosaic of Dominus Julius depicting the agricultural life in ancient "Tunisia" :
another proof that they were not black.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Here a member of the royal guard (descendent of the abid al bukhari)
they are not fully haratin but have a big ssa component that's why their skin can appear as similar to some upper egyptians.
.
Pure fantasy. Current Maroc Royal Guard is equal opportunity. They are procured from Morocco's military ranks.
They aren't dispanded since the 1800's Bukhari, once an inbred by royal edict black people. Their descendants now fill royal civil service careers.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Nassbean can you please reply to the Amenhotep III pics I just put up please?
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Nassbean can you please reply to the Amenhotep III pics I just put up please?
yep based on what you posted it seems he looked black indeed but I don't see where it contradicts what I said earlier. I've never denied that some blacks played a role in Ancient egypt but saying that ancient egyptians were black and therefore AE is a black civilization is totally absurd
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
here the opinion of a congolese about complexed afro-americans and their afrocentrism :
"As a proud Congolese who is well informed about his heritage, I state with certainty based on anthropological evidence that we are indeed the direct descendants of our Congolese forefathers not Ancient Egyptians. And I’m more certain of my ancestry than you are of your paternity. Many black Americans claim that they are descendants of the Ancient Egyptians because they’re ashamed of their lineage, their kinship and believe that their erudite forebears were nothing other than slaves, which leads them to research Pseudo-Histories just to make them feel better.
Furthermore, I also think it all comes down to inadequate education about our pre-slavery history. Blacks are referred to as “African-American” so Blacks assume that the entire continent is “ours.” Even then, many have such shame in being African that they try to claim other civilizations like Native Americans, Germanics, Slavs, Celts, Mediterraneans and Nords. And that Europeans came from other galaxy as extraterrestrial invaders just 100 years ago.
Yes Afrocentric is toxic, and spreads like wildfire among the Black communities, they act is if they’re gods gift to the world... Ready to judge and belittle anyone who begs to differ from their way of thinking.. I argue back at them here on many comments, but it seems to fall on deaf ears.... They have nothing but loathing in their mind sets, and only they can change. It’s a futile attempt at times."
Big respect to him that's a smart guy and real african Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: "As a proud Congolese who is well informed about his heritage, I state with certainty based on anthropological evidence that we are indeed the direct descendants of our Congolese forefathers not Ancient Egyptians.And I’m more certain of my ancestry than you are of your paternity. Many black Americans claim that they are descendants of the Ancient Egyptians because they’re ashamed of their lineage, their kinship and believe that their erudite forebears were nothing other than slaves, which leads them to research Pseudo-Histories just to make them feel better.
Most African Americans do not claim they come from Egypt, nor ANY group of blacks from the diaspora. They claim the original AE shared the same race. They might say they're all Africans. But that's not inferring direct descent. Funny how this person wouldn't allege people in the African Diaspora think they're south African, for believing the indigenous people there are black. People that aren't from America are not going to know everything about our culture just because they're black. You keep saying Africa's a continent and not a country, but act as though people who aren't African Americans or even from the Diaspora are automatic cultural experts just because they're black or African. Stupid.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Even then, many have such shame in being African that they try to claim other civilizations like Native Americans, Germanics, Slavs, Celts, Mediterraneans and Nords. And that Europeans came from other galaxy as extraterrestrial invaders just 100 years ago.
HAHAHAHAHA oh heeeeeeeeelll no. Most people know this is bullshit.... That was funny though. I wonder if this person quoted is white pretending to be black. MOST blacks in the U.S truly will HAVE Germanic or Nordic ancestry and will if anything reluctantly accept or completely deny a relationship with Europe due to racism in the country. Some will say they're of some Native American ancestry. In some states there was more mixing with Native Americans and some blacker/Melanesian looking Natives were pretty much labeled blacks. Most blacl people focus on their African ancestry with only a very tiny few that say they're black but not African (and clearly aren't). Any you dumbasses will always focus on the small minority to divert from the initial point of whether the original founders of Egypt were black.
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Upper egyptians don't look like haratin at all so your comparison Mr.Jari is ridiculous :
haratin :
While upper egyptians with non recent ssa admixture look like this :
What you still don't understand is that some north africans have recent haratin ancestors and so a big ssa component :
here for example a berber man who is married to a haratin woman
here a member of the royal guard (descendent of the abid al bukhari)
they are not fully haratin but have a big ssa component that's why their skin can appear as similar to some upper egyptians.
For example, You can have nilote looking people being indigenous to north africa and at the same time black skinned people being non indigenous because of recent foreign admixture
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ase:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: "As a proud Congolese who is well informed about his heritage, I state with certainty based on anthropological evidence that we are indeed the direct descendants of our Congolese forefathers not Ancient Egyptians.And I’m more certain of my ancestry than you are of your paternity. Many black Americans claim that they are descendants of the Ancient Egyptians because they’re ashamed of their lineage, their kinship and believe that their erudite forebears were nothing other than slaves, which leads them to research Pseudo-Histories just to make them feel better.
Most African Americans do not claim they come from Egypt, nor ANY group of blacks from the diaspora. They claim the original AE shared the same race. They might say they're all Africans. But that's not inferring direct descent. Funny how this person wouldn't allege people in the African Diaspora think they're south African, for believing the indigenous people there are black. People that aren't from America are not going to know everything about our culture just because they're black. You keep saying Africa's a continent and not a country, but act as though people who aren't African Americans or even from the Diaspora are automatic cultural experts just because they're black or African. Stupid.
Lol you think you teach me something here ? I've debated with people like you for years now it's useless to deny the truth most afrocentrists believe they descend from AEs and that AEs looked like west africans. They also tend to believe that in the past the whole continent was inhabited by bantu looking people and that's why they think they have the right to claim every african civilizations.
Black Hebrew Israelites really believe that they descent directly from ancient Hebrews who according to them were exiled to west africa and then were deported to America It's useless to say I'm lying here the evidence :
Completely pathetic.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Nassbean can you please reply to the Amenhotep III pics I just put up please?
yep based on what you posted it seems he looked black indeed but I don't see where it contradicts what I said earlier. I've never denied that some blacks played a role in Ancient egypt but saying that ancient egyptians were black and therefore AE is a black civilization is totally absurd
Australian actor David Gulpili
black or not black?
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Nassbean can you please reply to the Amenhotep III pics I just put up please?
yep based on what you posted it seems he looked black indeed but I don't see where it contradicts what I said earlier. I've never denied that some blacks played a role in Ancient egypt but saying that ancient egyptians were black and therefore AE is a black civilization is totally absurd
Australian actor David Gulpili
black or not black?
No looks more indian to me
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
Black:
-Of any human group having dark-colored skin, especially of African or Australian Aboriginal ancestry.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Show me where I posted or compared anything..
I posted Your Posts....
So keep resorting to strawman fallacy....Ill keep reposting your trash arguments against you..
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: U your comparison Mr.Jari is ridiculous :
More Bio-Diversity circular reasoning by the coastal barbarian-centric(Berber)
one is 30-40% SSA, the other is authentic non-black North Africans
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: [QUOTE]Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [qb] They have quite significant Iranian and Arab ancestry, could be a remnant from the various Caliphates that ruled North Africa.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: lol even today lower nubians have the same skin tone as upper egyptians nothing has changed.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
and here lower nubians "from the land of wawat" :
BTW, here is that Image of the Tunisian president and (Mixed)Obama and Michelle(Full African American)...
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Stupid is as stupid does...
One is Authentic non Black North African...one is SSA Heratin...Biodiversity logic101
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: lol even today lower nubians have the same skin tone as upper egyptians nothing has changed.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
and here lower nubians "from the land of wawat" :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
These people descend from haratins I already explained you multiple times they are way less indigenous than the white skinned berbers :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: None of the people I posted looked black or are black skinned... [/qb]
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Show me where I posted or compared anything..
I posted Your Posts....
So keep resorting to strawman fallacy....Ill keep reposting your trash arguments against you..
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nassbean: [qb] U your comparison Mr.Jari is ridiculous :
More Bio-Diversity circular reasoning by the coastal barbarian-centric(Berber)
one is 30-40% SSA, the other is authentic non-black North Africans
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: [QUOTE]Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [qb] They have quite significant Iranian and Arab ancestry, could be a remnant from the various Caliphates that ruled North Africa.
He's a descendent of haratin again what's your point ?? stop comparing two different regions (two different genetic history). Also barack obama is half black...
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Ase:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: "As a proud Congolese who is well informed about his heritage, I state with certainty based on anthropological evidence that we are indeed the direct descendants of our Congolese forefathers not Ancient Egyptians.And I’m more certain of my ancestry than you are of your paternity. Many black Americans claim that they are descendants of the Ancient Egyptians because they’re ashamed of their lineage, their kinship and believe that their erudite forebears were nothing other than slaves, which leads them to research Pseudo-Histories just to make them feel better.
Most African Americans do not claim they come from Egypt, nor ANY group of blacks from the diaspora. They claim the original AE shared the same race. They might say they're all Africans. But that's not inferring direct descent. Funny how this person wouldn't allege people in the African Diaspora think they're south African, for believing the indigenous people there are black. People that aren't from America are not going to know everything about our culture just because they're black. You keep saying Africa's a continent and not a country, but act as though people who aren't African Americans or even from the Diaspora are automatic cultural experts just because they're black or African. Stupid.
Lol you think you teach me something here ?
Yep, its my culture. You only know some of them debating online for a few years like I said. I've been around my people-- the GENERAL population. I am fully integrated into my culture my whole life. You don't know what you're talking about.
quote: most afrocentrists believe they descend from AEs and that AEs looked like west africans.
If that's how you define a "afrocentrist" then most blacks in the diaspora aren't Afrocentrist, nor would I. Some may think that the a subset of west African diversity was possibly also part of Egypt to some degree (even if a minority). But the idea they looked like West Africans hasn't been very relevant to the position among blacks that the AE are black. We're aware that dominant west African phenotypes are NOT the only way to look black. In fact important/popular portrayals of Egyptians have incorporated East Africans like Somali.
quote: They also tend to believe that in the past the whole continent was inhabited by bantu looking people and that's why they think they have the right to claim every african civilizations.
We don't even know about the Phonecians. How could we be claiming "every African civilization?" MOST blacks here are incorporating Dashiki, Kente cloths, adinkra symbols and mud cloths--stuff from West African countries.
quote:Black Hebrew Israelites really believe that they descent directly from ancient Hebrews who according to them exiled to west african and then were deported to America It's useless to say I'm lying here the evidence :
Nearly no blacks are Hebrew Israelites though. Again you're cherrypicking blacks in America so that you can divert the conversation about the race of the Egyptians.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Stupid is as stupid does...
One is Authentic non Black North African...one is SSA Heratin...Biodiversity logic101
yes one is indigenous while the other is not what's wrong with that ?? So according to you I'm indigenous to the middle east and south europe because I have the same skin tone as them ...you see how ridiculous your argument sound ?
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Stop pretending like posters have'nt debunked your silly smoke and mirrors you Barbarian-centric liar..
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: But it gets even worse him...
^ The reason why not only modern North Africans but Western Eurasians e.g. Middle-Easterners and Europeans cluster close to Africans in general is because they ALL have recent black African ancestry!
^ And that is just the paternal clade alone, namely E1b1b. This doesn't include African maternal clades which are prevalent in the light areas where the paternal clades are not prevalent. Hence African maternal lineages are prevalent in the Iberian peninsula where they are not in the Balkan and they are also prevalent in Arabia some of which predates the slave trade. In fact genetic studies for the past several decades have confirmed that as much as ONE-THIRD of Europeans have black ancestry dating as far back as the Neolithic if not Bronze Age!
And here you have so-called 'Mediterranean race' nationalists ethnically divide the E1b1b subclades in Africa on ethnic lines.
The Euronuts are so crazy they attempt to divorce E1b1b from Africa and claim it as 'Eurasian' even though the predominant paternal clade in Sub-Sahara is its sister clade E1b1a, so now some have attempted to say the entire E macroclade is Eurasian, so Bantus and Guinea West Africans are Eurasian too! LMAO
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Origins
Tamazight & E-M81 relatively recent origins.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: [QB] stop comparing two different regions (two different genetic history). /QB]
Stop pretending you coastal barbarians dont have African ancestry, and the the berber language isnt linked to East Africa...
How many times do people have to keep posting the same info for you to comprehend...
What was the Average IQ of your home country...81 or 83?
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
How many times so I have to f-king repeat my self?
Are you really this slow?
Where did I say anything...Directly quote me where I said a damn thing about skin color and where someone is indigenous to...
The next post to me better be a direct quote or the whole forum and anyone lurking will know how dishonest you are...
or maybe you have a low-IQ...
The Ave. ranging in North Africa being 81-84 and all...
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Stupid is as stupid does...
One is Authentic non Black North African...one is SSA Heratin...Biodiversity logic101
yes one is indigenous while the other is not what's wrong with that ?? So according to you I'm indigenous to the middle east and south europe because I have the same skin tone as them ...you see how ridiculous your argument sound ?
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ase:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Ase:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: "As a proud Congolese who is well informed about his heritage, I state with certainty based on anthropological evidence that we are indeed the direct descendants of our Congolese forefathers not Ancient Egyptians.And I’m more certain of my ancestry than you are of your paternity. Many black Americans claim that they are descendants of the Ancient Egyptians because they’re ashamed of their lineage, their kinship and believe that their erudite forebears were nothing other than slaves, which leads them to research Pseudo-Histories just to make them feel better.
Most African Americans do not claim they come from Egypt, nor ANY group of blacks from the diaspora. They claim the original AE shared the same race. They might say they're all Africans. But that's not inferring direct descent. Funny how this person wouldn't allege people in the African Diaspora think they're south African, for believing the indigenous people there are black. People that aren't from America are not going to know everything about our culture just because they're black. You keep saying Africa's a continent and not a country, but act as though people who aren't African Americans or even from the Diaspora are automatic cultural experts just because they're black or African. Stupid.
Lol you think you teach me something here ?
Yep, its my culture. You only know them debating online for a few years like I said. I've been around my people-- the GENERAL population. I have been fully integrated into my culture my whole life. You don't know what you're talking about.
quote: most afrocentrists believe they descend from AEs and that AEs looked like west africans.
If that's how you define a "afrocentrist" then most blacks in the diaspora aren't Afrocentrist, nor would I. Some may think that the a subset of west African diversity was possibly also part of Egypt to some degree (even if a minority). But the idea they looked like West Africans hasn't been very relevant to the position among blacks that the AE are black. We're aware that dominant west African phenotypes are NOT the only way to look black. In fact important/popular portrayals of Egyptians have incorporated East Africans like Somali.
quote: They also tend to believe that in the past the whole continent was inhabited by bantu looking people and that's why they think they have the right to claim every african civilizations.
We don't even about the Phonecians. Why would be claiming "every African civilization." MOST blacks here are incorporating Dashiki, Kente cloths, adinkra symbols and mud cloths--stuff from West African countries.
quote:Black Hebrew Israelites really believe that they descent directly from ancient Hebrews who according to them exiled to west african and then were deported to America It's useless to say I'm lying here the evidence :
Nearly no blacks are Hebrew Israelites though. Again you're cherrypicking blacks in America so that you can divert the conversation about the race of the Egyptians.
I think the problem resides in our different persepectives : You include certain people under the "black" label while in the same time I do not include them under this label. That's because of your social american context where even very mixed black individuals can be seen or identify as black.
People like them are considered "black" in america :
while their phenotypes don't exist in SSA ...their skin aren't even black/dark. That's why when I posted upper egyptians that I don't view as "black" some members here were suprised because they would consider them black.
I view Africa as a complex entity and I don't simply divide it between black and white. There is also the problem of admixture : North africa is genetically quite diverse when it comes to admixtures even though the main component is the NA one. So some individuals can appear darker or lighter and it can be quite confusing.
If you say AEs were black because you consider upper egyptians as black then yes ok no problem (I don't) but it's still not fair because lower egyptians and the rest were also egyptians. Also it can be confusing because when people think of blacks they do not think of the specific upper egyptians or even nubians but they think about the most dominant/numerous group : the bantu one that's why you should say that AE was neither a white or black civilization.
Also even if you view them as "black" why do you claim it ? why do you waste all your days on a forum about egypt while your true ancestors lived in West africa and North-west Europe ? I find it weird to claim a whole civilization just based on your skin color ...I will never claim Persia,Assyria or Sumer just because they had the same skin color as me. I don't even claim egypt lol
Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Ase:
Southern Egyptians that founded the dominant culture were, even if they weren't all black. Nope! they closely matched the phenotypes of the original upper Egyptians. Upper Egyptians clustered between Nubians and Ethiopians.
Again no Upper egyptians were not black and based on your pics they craniometrically plot between horners and other north africans Its probably still the case today. Craniometry means nothing when it comes to skin color.
quote:Originally posted by Ase: Yawn genetics don't ultimately determine who winds up black. You can have people with less SSA ancestry than that but would pass as black. And since you want to play that game let's show:
You'd probably be surprised how common this is. The woman above only has 34 percent European ancestry. 66 percent of her ancestry is from SSA. You can find North Africans that look like this too:
And this woman was probably darker than the skintone given in the reconstruction too.
The woman doesn't even look black lol no one look like her in sub-saharan africa and no one has 34% european ancestry in SSA ...her phenotype is typically from the new world and only americans would consider her as "black" here in europe she would see as "métisse"/biracial. And no the skintone wasn't darker for the reconstruction you have again no evidence for this.
Aha! You are in Europe.. which explains your low self esteem... White folks ain't treating you right are they? Them Frenchies.. are racist and consider you a Sand N... ya know...
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
How much scholarly sources need to be posted to this illiterate troll before he can comprehend basic English?
Smoke and Mirrors for 11 pages, and has the gall to pretend his particular corner of North Africa is unique or not connected to Africans below his magical barrier...
You're smoke and mirrors wont work with me...Ill keep posting your own crap Bio-diversity rants all day...
You can get away with it on FBD or Youtube...Spam "We Wuz Kangs" and beat your chest...but Ill be damned if you try it here at ES...
I was civil with you....
How many times will I have to keep posting this...
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith: “To what extent Carthaginians employed Negro slaves is doubtful. Punic cemeteries have yielded numerous skulls of a negroid character, and there were some very dark-skinned Africans, perhaps negroes, in the Carthaginian army which invaded Sicily early in the fifth century B.C. Frontinus tells us that as prisoners they were paraded naked before the Greeks soldiery in order to bring the Carthaginians into contempt. On the other hand, as the Carthaginians customarily enslaved prisoners of war and the victims of their piracy, two sources of supply which they must have found very fruitful, they were far from being dependent on Africa for slave labour. It is unlikely that they hesitated to enslaved as many Berbers as they required, nor were so brutal a people likely to have drawn the line at doing the same to their own peasantry. The evidence of negro blood, is, however, significant and it seems probable that they imported slaves from the Fezzan. It was a likely source, for the Garamantes cannot have hunted the Troglodyte Ethiopians except to enslave them. The slave trade with the Fezzan may have been important to the Carthaginians, but there are no grounds for assuming that it was.”
Source: The golden trade of the Moors: West African kingdoms in the fourteenth century, By E. W. Bovill, Robin Hallet, pp. 21-22
“In the Punic burial grounds, negroid remains were not rare and there were black auxiliaries in the Carthaginian army who were certainly not Nilotics. Furthermore, if we are to believe Diodorus(XX, 57.5), a lieutenant of Agathocles in northern Tunisia at the close of the fourth century before our era overcame a people who skin was similar to the Ethiopian. There is much evidence of the presence of 'Ethiopians' on the southern borders of Africa Minor. Throughout the classical period, mention is also made of peoples belonging to intermediate races, the Melano-Getules, or Leuco-Ethiopians in particular in Ptolemy.”
Source: General History of Africa: Ancient civilizations of Africa By G. Mokhtar, Unesco. International Scientific Committee for the Drafting of a General History of Africa, p. 427
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: But it gets even worse him...
^ The reason why not only modern North Africans but Western Eurasians e.g. Middle-Easterners and Europeans cluster close to Africans in general is because they ALL have recent black African ancestry!
^ And that is just the paternal clade alone, namely E1b1b. This doesn't include African maternal clades which are prevalent in the light areas where the paternal clades are not prevalent. Hence African maternal lineages are prevalent in the Iberian peninsula where they are not in the Balkan and they are also prevalent in Arabia some of which predates the slave trade. In fact genetic studies for the past several decades have confirmed that as much as ONE-THIRD of Europeans have black ancestry dating as far back as the Neolithic if not Bronze Age!
And here you have so-called 'Mediterranean race' nationalists ethnically divide the E1b1b subclades in Africa on ethnic lines.
The Euronuts are so crazy they attempt to divorce E1b1b from Africa and claim it as 'Eurasian' even though the predominant paternal clade in Sub-Sahara is its sister clade E1b1a, so now some have attempted to say the entire E macroclade is Eurasian, so Bantus and Guinea West Africans are Eurasian too! LMAO
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Origins
Tamazight & E-M81 relatively recent origins.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: [QB] stop comparing two different regions (two different genetic history). /QB]
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Nassbean: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Ase:
Aha! You are in Europe.. which explains your low self esteem... White folks ain't treating you right are they? Them Frenchies.. are racist and consider you a Sand N... ya know...
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] How much scholarly sources need to be posted to this illiterate troll before he can comprehend basic English?
Smoke and Mirrors for 11 pages, and has the gall to pretend his particular corner of North Africa is unique or not connected to Africans below his magical barrier...
You're smoke and mirrors wont work with me...Ill keep posting your own crap Bio-diversity rants all day...
You can get away with it on FBD or Youtube...Spam "We Wuz Kangs" and beat your chest...but Ill be damned if you try it here at ES...
I was civil with you....
How many times will I have to keep posting this...
].”
Lol I've posted enough evidence go check previous pages refute them and we'll talk ...And yes modern and ancient north africans had some SSA and ANA ancestry I don't see where I've denied this. The problem is the amount and the period.
Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nassbean: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Nassbean: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Ase:
Aha! You are in Europe.. which explains your low self esteem... White folks ain't treating you right are they? Them Frenchies.. are racist and consider you a Sand N... ya know...
Yes you have tragic mulatto syndrome... being in Europe has exposed you to the fact that the whites will never accept you... so you reaction is to reject the part of yourself that the whites won't accept...
hence your anti blackness...
That's the tea
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Nassbean: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Ase:
Aha! You are in Europe.. which explains your low self esteem... White folks ain't treating you right are they? Them Frenchies.. are racist and consider you a Sand N... ya know...
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: [qb]Lol I've posted enough evidence go check previous pages refute them and we'll talk ...
Again Directly post where I disputed your North Africans as legit. Stop the smoke and mirror crap and post it..Im still waiting...
quote:And yes modern and ancient north africans had some SSA and ANA ancestry I don't see where I've denied this. The problem is the amount and the period.
There was'nt "Some" the defining paternal Clad of the Berbers e1b1b originated in East Africa...
...Carthage anthropological remains yeild significant numbers of SSA remains...
That's just some, a fraction of the stuff posters have posted to you...
so keep pretending like you're unique .... that one set of Africans is Authentic non Black North African and the other a SSA slave....despite them having more stereotypical SSA features than the Berber Girl..
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: [qb] lol even today lower nubians have the same skin tone as upper egyptians nothing has changed.
/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Nassbean: [qb]
and here lower nubians "from the land of wawat" :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: [qb]
These people descend from haratins I already explained you multiple times they are way less indigenous than the white skinned berbers :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: None of the people I posted looked black or are black skinned...
I have'nt even gotten to similarities between Berber and Saharan/Sahaelian cultures...Kasbar was utilized as far south as Mali...I have gotten the fact that you Berbers lived as subjects in Walata and Adwoghast safe, protected, and respected by my ancestors...They never treated your ancestors the way you disrespectful pigs treat us.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Nassbean: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Nassbean: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Ase:
Aha! You are in Europe.. which explains your low self esteem... White folks ain't treating you right are they? Them Frenchies.. are racist and consider you a Sand N... ya know...
Yes you have tragic mulatto syndrome... being in Europe has exposed you to the fact that the whites will never accept you... so you reaction is to reject the part of yourself that the whites won't accept...
hence your anti blackness...
That's the tea
hahah that's funny because I've already posted my genetic results multiple times I've nothing to hide or to hate :
Stop projecting your insecurities on me. We north africans are proud people we do not seek to be accepted by anyone.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: [qb]Lol I've posted enough evidence go check previous pages refute them and we'll talk ...
Again Directly post where I disputed your North Africans as legit. Stop the smoke and mirror crap and post it..Im still waiting...
quote:And yes modern and ancient north africans had some SSA and ANA ancestry I don't see where I've denied this. The problem is the amount and the period.
There was'nt "Some" the defining paternal Clad of the Berbers originated in East Africa...Carthage anthropological remains yeild significant numbers of SSA remains...
so keep pretending like you're unique .... that one set of Africans is Authentic non Black North African and the other a SSA slave....despite them having more stereotypical SSA features than the Berber Girl..
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: [qb] lol even today lower nubians have the same skin tone as upper egyptians nothing has changed.
/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Nassbean: [qb]
and here lower nubians "from the land of wawat" :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: [qb]
These people descend from haratins I already explained you multiple times they are way less indigenous than the white skinned berbers :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: None of the people I posted looked black or are black skinned...
I have'nt even gotten to similarities between Berber and Saharan/Sahaelian cultures...Kasbar was utilized as far south as Mali...I have gotten the fact that you Berbers lived as subjects in Walata and Adwoghast safe, protected, and respected by my ancestors...They never treated your ancestors the way you disrespectful pigs treat us.
Haplogroups have nothing to do with autosomal. Modern north africans are mainly E-m81 not the east african or west african subclades of E :
"We find M81 at an average frequency of 45% in the Maghreb and in Libya, with peaks at more than 60% in Tunisia as well as in the center and the south of Morocco. M81 is also found in Portugal (8%), Spain (4%), as well as in France (from 0 to 6%) and in Italy (from 0 to 4%) where regional variations are very significant. M81 is particularly frequent in western Iberia, especially in Extremadura (15.5%), Andalusia (13.5%), in the south of Portugal (11%), in the north-west of Castile (10%) and in Galicia (10%). The highest percentage of E-M81 in Europe is found among the Pasiegos (30%, n = 101), an isolated community living in the mountains of Cantabria."
are you going to say that E-v13 carriers in south-east europe are black africans ?? Also the oldest african haplogroups we have are from from iberomaurusians and they were mainly E-m78 and mtdna U6 ...the exact origin of those haplogroups are still in debate and most of them tend to be in favor of a north african origin (region around libya and Egypt) instead of a east african one. I've also posted evidence of the craddle of the afro-asiatic family being in North africa but of course you avoided it.
Btw I'm not even E-M81. And there are no carthaginian remains being "black" give me the source pls. Also you definitely don't understand what you're talking about : "similarities with berber" ---> yes because the region is directly in contact with berbers especially tuaregs.
"I have gotten the fact that you Berbers lived as subjects in Walata and Adwoghast safe" --> I smell inferiority complex here but anyway I'm pretty sure those "berbers" were black and not coastal north africans.
Moreover I've already explained you about haratin in North Africa I will not repeat myself again and again.
Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Nassbean: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Nassbean: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Ase:
Aha! You are in Europe.. which explains your low self esteem... White folks ain't treating you right are they? Them Frenchies.. are racist and consider you a Sand N... ya know...
Yes you have tragic mulatto syndrome... being in Europe has exposed you to the fact that the whites will never accept you... so you reaction is to reject the part of yourself that the whites won't accept...
hence your anti blackness...
That's the tea
hahah that's funny because I've already posted my genetic results multiple times I've nothing to hide or to hate :
Stop projecting your insecurities on me. We north africans are proud people we do not seek to be accepted by anyone.
Dude you are the one here trying to prove something...
the need to state your whiteness or prove your non blackness speaks for itself..
You are here projecting your insecurities about blackness.. in the guise of superiority
You have a need to separate or overcome your 2.4 %
Question to those who might know. aren't Tauregs the original Amazighs.. and aren't they related to Beja?
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Nassbean can you please reply to the Amenhotep III pics I just put up please?
yep based on what you posted it seems he looked black indeed but I don't see where it contradicts what I said earlier. I've never denied that some blacks played a role in Ancient egypt but saying that ancient egyptians were black and therefore AE is a black civilization is totally absurd
In 1288 and again in 1293 the Venetian traveler Marco Polo visited the Pandyan kingdom and left a vivid description of the land and its people. Polo exclaimed that:
"The darkest man is here the most highly esteemed and considered better than the others who are not so dark. Let me add that in very truth these people portray and depict their gods and their idols black and their devils white as snow. For they say that God and all the saints are black and the devils are all white. That is why they portray them as I have described.”
Indian Man
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Nassbean can you please reply to the Amenhotep III pics I just put up please?
yep based on what you posted it seems he looked black indeed but I don't see where it contradicts what I said earlier. I've never denied that some blacks played a role in Ancient egypt but saying that ancient egyptians were black and therefore AE is a black civilization is totally absurd
Americans and their identity issues...smh They can only see the world as White vs Black they don't care about genetics,culture,anthropology, etc
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
[quote]The average European will see not see the difference between a biracial Black and Magrebi. I have seen this many times.[/quo]
You are not from here, tho. We’re too indifferent to North Africa to notice/blow up/liken every smidgen of overlap in their diversity, to our diversity.
You have certain beliefs. Fine. But don’t involve us in what is an American phenomenon. It doesn’t live here.
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: I think the problem resides in our different persepectives : You include certain people under the "black" label while in the same time I do not include them under this label. That's because of your social american context where even very mixed black individuals can be seen or identify as black.
It's not "American" but it's an issue throughout the west. People with NO African mixture have been labeled as blacks by the west. The issue is also context. You're injecting a perspective on what is "same enough" or genetically "close enough" to a conversation where we've been discussing what is "same enough" to the west for reasons of personal safety. Most blacks understand that race is an irrational assemblage of what white westerners have decided among themselves is "same enough" looking to get the same treatment. Discussing genetics and the like is ultimately irrelevant because it's not what enforces their opinions no matter what they say. If it was about SSA, how come Aboriginals that have NO connection to Africa are involved? WE are more closely related genetically than to an Aboriginal and you're not black. While you don't have to personally believe the Aboriginal to look "same enough" to other blacks, the many white ethnic groups that moved in ultimately did. That's our point.
You can discuss physical likeness within another context if you want, but within the western RACIAL context most of us speak within, all that matters is who looks same enough to the westerners because it might be the difference between preferential treatment or getting bombed in conflicts over indigenous land and resources. Average blacks will get angry when people interject a conversation that is clearly discussing this specific contextual phenomenon to discuss an entirely different perspective as though it's on topic or has the level of impact to their daily lives.
Truth be told many black in the DIASPORA don't think the man below:
"same enough" to them personally (though many do). But when he says he says his race is black, they will not challenge it. Why? Because they know that within the WHITE CREATED social construct of race-- the man above will likely live his life as a black man. Conversations of how blacks feel outside the context of race exists, some will say "so and so looks Exxxotical" or discuss colorism to suggest that the features look much different from standard West Africans. BUT unless there are virtually no black features, that person is still black from a white supremacy perspective.
quote:while their phenotypes don't exist in SSA ...their skin aren't even black/dark. That's why when I posted upper egyptians that I don't view as "black" some members here were suprised because they would consider them black.
Aboriginals have phenotypes that don't exist in SSA. They're still judged as blacks. It's not about race being rational. If you're not white and running trillion dollar institutions what you "view" as black is not relevant to the context of a white supremacist worldview
quote:If you say AEs were black because you consider upper egyptians as black then yes ok no problem (I don't) but it's still not fair because lower egyptians and the rest were also egyptians.
Didn't argue that. Most modern Egyptians whether they are black or not whether they are dark are light are a combination of Upper Egyptian founders, Lower Egyptian assimilates, and foreigners. MOST can claim heritage to the founders. Would they, by a western racial model be able to say they are the same race as the upper Egyptian founders...NO. But the whole point of showing that Egyptian founders were black by these peoples standards is to show how irrational and stupid race is. It's stupid to suggest that a person's appearance should determine their potential in life. It's STUPID to say that there's a genetic foundation to such an attitude to make it sound better. Especially when people that are NOT related to one another (or even close) are all labeled the same race. Only a very SMALL handful of people are taking the larger practice of showing supremacist stupidity to imply a direct genetic relationship. And often they have a similar goal to the white supremacist and have no interest of ending racism (they just want to reverse positions).
quote: Also it can be confusing because when people think of blacks they do not think of the specific upper egyptians or even nubians but they think about the most dominant/numerous group : the bantu one that's why you should say that AE was neither a white or black civilization.
We don't need to say that, because the racial construct doesn't honestly care about those differences. If we're discussing them to show the construct is STUPID (most are NOT saying we descend from them) why is that important? I'm not saying I descend from an Egyptian, I'm saying this white supremacists irrational ideas that these two people look "same enough" and can't achieve because of a "certain" look is dumb. Also, while "bantu black" is very numerous, the Horn and the lighter more southernly Africans below the equator are not at all numerically negligible in number.
quote:Also even if you view them as "black" why do you claim it ? why do you waste all your days on a forum about egypt while your true ancestors lived in West africa and North-west Europe ?
I don't waste "all my days." I can go long periods sparsely visiting or not coming to the site at all. Asking "why" I talk about it is like asking why East Asian Buddhists that aren't Indian claim an ideological relationship to the Buddha. They're not saying they're Indian. They're saying they relate to him as Buddhists. Relating to someone one level of a social context does not automatically mean those people have a close genetic relationship.
Oh and you said why do I "claim" blackness? Race isn't something people claim. You don't even have a choice. You're forced into this at birth and there is no escape.
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ase: It's not "American" but it's an issue throughout the west. People with NO African mixture have been labeled as blacks by the west. The issue is also context. You're injecting a perspective on what is "same enough" or genetically "close enough" to a conversation where we've been discussing what is "same enough" to the west for reasons of personal safety. Most blacks understand that race is an irrational assemblage of what white westerners have decided among themselves is "same enough" looking to get the same treatment. Discussing genetics and the like is ultimately irrelevant because it's not what enforces their opinions no matter what they say. If it was about SSA, how come Aboriginals that have NO connection to Africa are involved? WE are more closely related genetically than to an Aboriginal and you're not black. While you don't have to personally believe the Aboriginal to look "same enough" to other blacks, the many white ethnic groups that moved in ultimately did. That's our point.
I still think there is some kind of Hypocrisy because if you know that it's an eurocentric social construct why putting ancient upper egyptians under this same eurocentric label ?
I honestly think this quote is fair and correct :
"The attempt to force the Egyptians into either a “black” or a “white” category has no biological justification. Our data show not only that Egypt clearly had biological ties to the north and to the south, but that it was intermediate between populations to the east and the west, and that Egypt was basically Egyptian from the Neolithic right on up to historic times. In this, our analysis simply reinforces the findings of other recent studies" https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/ajpa.1330360603
Also you are aware than most people on this site don't share your opinions because they clearly imagine AEs to have looked like modern bantus some of them even think AE was a panafrican civilization. My point since the beginning was just to show that berbers such as me are indigenous to north africa since at least the Neolithic era and also that AEs were similar to modern egyptians (that you consider some of them to be "black" is not a problem but it's not my opinion).
You also can't deny the trans-saharan slave trade we have tons of historical and genetic evidence ...I mean what's next ? Are you going to deny the atlantic slave trade too lol ? It can't be questioned imo what's questionable is the impact of this slave trade.
quote:Originally posted by Ase: You can discuss physical likeness within another context if you want, but within the western RACIAL context most of us speak within, all that matters is who looks same enough to the westerners because it might be the difference between preferential treatment or getting bombed in conflicts over indigenous land and resources. Average blacks will get angry when people interject a conversation that is clearly discussing this specific contextual phenomenon to discuss an entirely different perspective as though it's on topic or has the level of impact to their daily lives.
I partially agree : "western racial context" I swear in europe most upper egyptians I posted wouldn't be seen as black but more as dark arab (same for some nubians) and the american players I posted would be seen as mixed/biracial/métisse not black I don't even think black africans here would consider them to be "black" and I'm pretty sure of this (If you still don't believe me ask any european you'll meet).
quote:Originally posted by Ase: Didn't argue that. Most modern Egyptians whether they are black or not whether they are dark are light are a combination of Upper Egyptian founders, Lower Egyptian assimilates, and foreigners. MOST can claim heritage to the founders. Would they, by a western racial model be able to say they are the same race as the upper Egyptian founders...NO. But the whole point of showing that Egyptian founders were black by these peoples standards is to show how irrational and stupid race is. It's stupid to suggest that a person's appearance should determine their potential in life. It's STUPID to say that there's a genetic foundation to such an attitude to make it sound better. Especially when people that are NOT related to one another (or even close) are all labeled the same race. Only a very SMALL handful of people are taking the larger practice of showing supremacist stupidity to imply a direct genetic relationship. And often they have a similar goal to the white supremacist and have no interest of ending racism (they just want to reverse positions).
The way you speak of them is disrespectful : lower egyptians were not "assimilates" even prior to the unification their culture was similar to what was found in the south and Narmer simply unified both kingdoms. The south was probably more influential because of a bigger demography but that's it...Also Ancient Egypt lasted 3100 years no need to focus only on the pre-dynastic era all the inhabitants of this region during 3000 years played a role not only the "founders".
"It's STUPID to say that there's a genetic foundation to such an attitude to make it sound better." --> Indeed but there is nothing wrong with saying that the founders of x civilization had x ancestry and were similar to modern y population. People have the right to say such population wasn't black or white or east asian don't interpret this as some kind of ideological war it's not.
quote:Originally posted by Ase: I don't waste "all my days." I can go long periods sparsely visiting or not coming to the site at all. Asking "why" I talk about it is like asking why East Asian Buddhists that aren't Indian claim an ideological relationship to the Buddha. They're not saying they're Indian. They're saying they relate to him as Buddhists. Relating to someone one level of a social context is not automatically mean those people have a close genetic relationship.
Alright then in this case I totally accept your point of view no problem but be honest with yourself you already know that your opinion is not shared by most people here if not all of them based on what I saw. Moreover be open minded and also accept my point of view that it is relevant to whites or not I still have the right to not see upper egyptians as black.
btw I want your opinion on this : do you consider the presentator in this video to be "black" ? (he's egyptian and he looks exactly like how I imagine AEs to have looked like in average) --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIyTTulb7GI Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Is anyone able to find more information about this picture?
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
quote:Americans and their identity issues...smh They can only see the world as White vs Black they don't care about genetics,culture,anthropology, etc
Historic Definition of “Negroid”:
“Negroid (used as both a synonym and superset of Congoid) is a historical grouping of human beings, once purported to be an identifiable race and applied as a political class by another dominant 'non-negroid' culture. The term had been used by forensic and physical anthropologists to refer to individuals and populations that share certain morphological and skeletal traits that are frequent among populations in most of Sub-Saharan Africa and isolated parts of South and Southeast Asia (Negritos).”
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Nassbean can you please reply to the Amenhotep III pics I just put up please?
yep based on what you posted it seems he looked black indeed but I don't see where it contradicts what I said earlier. I've never denied that some blacks played a role in Ancient egypt but saying that ancient egyptians were black and therefore AE is a black civilization is totally absurd
Americans and their identity issues...smh They can only see the world as White vs Black they don't care about genetics,culture,anthropology, etc
And the funniest thing about your little response is that these weren’t even Americans that gave their definition of a “Black” person, these were Australians, ”Black” Australians, self-identifying as “Black”! 🇦🇺
Fair enough.
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: here the opinion of a congolese about complexed afro-americans and their afrocentrism :
"As a proud Congolese who is well informed about his heritage, I state with certainty based on anthropological evidence that we are indeed the direct descendants of our Congolese forefathers not Ancient Egyptians. And I’m more certain of my ancestry than you are of your paternity. Many black Americans claim that they are descendants of the Ancient Egyptians because they’re ashamed of their lineage, their kinship and believe that their erudite forebears were nothing other than slaves, which leads them to research Pseudo-Histories just to make them feel better.
Furthermore, I also think it all comes down to inadequate education about our pre-slavery history. Blacks are referred to as “African-American” so Blacks assume that the entire continent is “ours.” Even then, many have such shame in being African that they try to claim other civilizations like Native Americans, Germanics, Slavs, Celts, Mediterraneans and Nords. And that Europeans came from other galaxy as extraterrestrial invaders just 100 years ago.
Yes Afrocentric is toxic, and spreads like wildfire among the Black communities, they act is if they’re gods gift to the world... Ready to judge and belittle anyone who begs to differ from their way of thinking.. I argue back at them here on many comments, but it seems to fall on deaf ears.... They have nothing but loathing in their mind sets, and only they can change. It’s a futile attempt at times."
Big respect to him that's a smart guy and real african
Here’s a response from a intelligent Brother G-checking this dimwitted fool’s crappy answer. Made by a real African! 💪🏿
EXCERPT:
Ben Kakengo Emangongo, What you’ve asserted here is completely incorrect and well thought out. Here is why. First, let’s unwrap some of what you’ve actually asserted here.
“…Many black Americans claim that they are descendants of the Ancient Egyptians because they’re ashamed of their lineage, their kinship and believe that their erudite forebears were nothing other than slaves, which leads them to research Pseudo-Histories just to make them feel better.”
Yes, many of us are ashamed of our Afrikan Heritage. But completely based on your incomplete reasons why. Most Afrikan-Americans’ do not ascribe to any such ideas of being descendants of the ancient Kemetu (misnomered Egyptians). In fact, the actual documented history proves the ancient Kemetu migrated into West and central-East Afrikan after countless invasions by foreigners.
The general population and rulership during the first 12 Dynasties were decidedly, indigenously Afrikan in blood type, phenotype, racial composition, linguistically, Culturally, etc. In fact, not until the foreign Hyksos invaded from Western Asia and conquered Lower Kemet in 2545 B.C.E.-1709 B.C.E. do we even see foreigners (non-Afrikans) rule any part of Kemet (Egypt). The Hyksos rule Lower Kemet—The Delta for over 500 years or so, from the mid13th- 17th Dynastic period. So, while the Hyksos ruled in Lower Kemet-The Delta in the North, simultaneously, there was a competing indigenous Nile Valley Afrikan rulership in Upper Kemet ruling in Upper (Southern part of) Kemet.
However, there came a time when the indigenous, Nile Valley Afrikans wished to unite both Upper and Lower Kemet and rule their entire country once again. This occurred when Pharaoh Ahmose and his wife, Ahmose-Nefertari composed an army of Nubians from Ta-Seti and Upper Kemetu (Egyptians) who invaded Lower Kemet—the Delta and once again, re-established indigenous, Nile Valley Afrikan rulership and re-uniting Upper and Lower Kemet once again, ushering in the ‘Glorious 18th Dynasty’ 1709 B.C.E.-1450 B.C.E. It was at this time that the Hyksos were finally expelled from Lower Kemet and back into Western Asia where they originated from. It must be noted here that people of Ta-Seti (the Nubians) were not considered foreigners, as the original people of the indigenous Nile Valley Afrikans were descendants of the Nubians anyway. The people further up the Nile were generally referred to as Khentiu (Foremost, The Beginning, Original). And in fact, Nile Valley Afrikan Civilization originally sprang from that area and further from the interior of Afrika. Foreigners did not invade, colonize, and rule any other part of Kemet or rule the entire Nation until 667 B.C.E. with the invasion of the Assyrians. Then the Persians invaded in 525 B.C.E. Then the Greeks under Alexander the Macedonian and the Greeks (Ptolemies) invaded in 332 B.C.E. Then the Romans invaded in 30 B.C.E. And then the Arabs invaded in 640 C.E. Then the Ottoman Turks invaded in 1517 C.E. The French invasion in 1798 C.E., and lastly, the British in 1882 C.E.
Generally, the racial makeup of the general population of the ancient Kemetu (Egyptians) was unchanged until the invasions of the Greeks, Romans, and Arabs. Up to this time, there was little, if any miscegenation among the general population. Even today, there is still a large general population of indigenous Kemetu/ Nubians (Egyptians) in Southern Kemet (Egypt).
You then make this incorrect and a-historical assertion.
“Furthermore, I also think it all comes down to inadequate education about our pre-slavery history. Blacks are referred to as “African-American” so Blacks assume that the entire continent is “ours.” In fact, the entire continent is ‘ours, as it is the original home of indigenous Afrikans—Homo Sapien Sapiens.
Then you ascribe a wholesale incorrect stance on the collective group of Afrikan-Americans. This is the false assertion you have ascribed to us.
You say, “Even then, many have such shame in being African that they try to claim other civilizations like Native Americans, Germanics, Slavs, Celts, Mediterraneans and Nords. And that Europeans came from other galaxy as extraterrestrial invaders just 100 years ago”. The overwhelming majority of those who are proud descends of kidnapped, enslaved Afrikans, myself included, DO NOT ascribe to such nonsense.
You said, “Yes Afrocentric is toxic, and spreads like wildfire among the Black communities, they act is if they’re gods gift to the world... Ready to judge and belittle anyone who begs to differ from their way of thinking.. I argue back at them here on many comments, but it seems to fall on deaf ears.... They have nothing but loathing in their mind sets, and only they can change. It’s a futile attempt at times.”
You assertion is clearly based on an incorrect Euro-Centric notion of what you think being ‘Afrocentric’ actually is. There is absolutely nothing ‘toxic’ about being Afrikan-Centered or what you describe as ‘Afrocentric’ at all.
So, let me help you out here.
What is Afrikan-Centeredness?
To be ‘Afrikan-Centered’ is to know your dynamic balance point. It means seeing the world thru an indigenous Afrikan prism. It means seeing the world thru Afrikan eyes, not thru Caucasian eyes, or Arab eyes, or Chinese eyes, etc. It is our core. It means we always know where to go to find our proper direction. We go back to Afrika, not always physically, but we always do so, in mind, body, and in our souls, and by tapping into the best of our ancient, indigenous Ancestral Culture, to know where we are, what we must do, and what time it is. We go back to Afrika to our Center. We go back to Afrika to find the best of our Ideology, Philosophy, Spirituality, Culture, etc. We do this because we are Afrikans, whether we are from the Diaspora or from the continent itself.
“Afrikan-Centeredness is to be grounded in a working knowledge of our uncompromised, indigenous Afrikan traditions. It is to be crystal clear about the fact that our indigenous Afrikan Traditions are purely Afrikan and, for this reason, we should interpret the world through the Universe-based, humanistic understanding of our Afrikan Ancestors. It is to think about and act on all planes of reality as they would, knowing they are we and we are they.
Being Centered is to be in sync with the indigenous Afrikan Way, which refers to the manner in which Afrikans have traditionally interpreted and acted in this world (i.e. before European, Arabs, and other foreign contamination). It is reflected in our evolved Cultural imperatives and the spiritual, psychological, and physical manifestations in which we naturally immerse ourselves. It is reflected in that common core of values, beliefs, and practices that run through all Afrikan ethnic groups…. The knowledge that we are our Afrikan Ancestors is enough to know that their traditions are ours. We respect ourselves when, and only when, we think and act in the spirit and Way of our Afrikan Ancestors.
The Afrikan-Centered warrior scholar thinks, speaks, and acts in the tradition of Ancestors. But does so aware of where we are and why we are here.”—from the book entitled, “Centered” pp 20-21, by Mwalimu K. Bomani Baruti
“Being centered means actively thinking and living in the revolutionary consciousness and dynamic sacred space where the essence of what our Ancestors defined and lived as Afrikan people is at its purest and densely concentrated. Centeredness is the highest level of ourstorical and visionary consciousness, giving an unqualified, complete sense of meaning and purpose to being Afrikan. It is spiritual, mental, and physical state of being. Without centered, Afrikans are merely rotting pieces of driftwood floating directionlessly around in another’s sea of insanity.” From the book entitled, “Centered” page 139, by Mwalimu K. Bomani Baruti
So, I must say, I am terribly disappointed in this piece you’ve written as it isn’t very researched nor thought out at all. We don’t need to steal anyone’s History. However, we need to be crystal clear as to what belongs to us and what belongs to others. Only then can we assign what doesn’t belongs to us. Ancient Kemet is a uniquely indigenous Afrikan Civilization and it is ours and we should claim because it belongs to us and not to anyone else.
Here are some books that are written by Scholars who possess Doctorates in the fields of Archaeology, Anthropology, Etymology, Linguistics, etc. which proves my assertions.
So, the information contained within them isn’t based on opinions, nor is it based on any misguided notion of what some would incorrectly refer to as Racism or what some like to refer to as ‘Afrocentrism’ either.
The information contained in them is based on the scientific disciplines I alluded to above.
How many of these books have you read and how many times?
(1) "The Destruction of Black Civilization: Great Issues Of A Race From 4500 B.C.-2000 A.D."
(2) "The Rebirth of African Civilization", both by Dr. Chancellor Williams
(3) "The African Origin of The Major Western Religions"
(4) "Africa: Mother of Western Civilization"
(5) "Black Man of The Nile And His Family"
(6) "We, The Black Jews", all written by Dr. Yosef Ben Jochannan
(7) "The African Origin of Civilization: Myth or Reality"
(8) "The Cultural Unity of Black Africa"
(9) "Civilization or Barbarism"
(10) "Black Africa: The Economic and Cultural Basis For A Federated State"
(11) “Precolonial Black Africa” all written by Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop
(12) "Nile Valley Civilizations"
(13) "Egypt: Daughter of Africa"
(14) "Egypt Revisited"
(15) "Blacks In Science: Ancient And Modern", all written by Dr. Ivan Van Sertima
(16) "Echoes of The Old Dark Land"
(17) "The Star of Deep Beginnings", both written by Dr. Charles Finch
(18) "Stolen Legacy", by George G. M. James
(19) "African Time: Universe to 1896 A.D.", by Tdka Maat Kilimanjaro, Ph.D. Ife Kilimanjaro, Ph.D., and Yahra Aaneb, Seba
(21) “The Art of Research”, by Tdka Maat Kilimanjaro, Ph.D.
(22) "The Peopling of Ancient Egypt And The Deciphering Of The Meoroitic Script
(23) "Ancient Egypt And Black Africa"
(24) “African Philosophy--The Pharaonic Period: 2780—330 B.C.”, all 3 written by Dr. Theophile Obenga
(25) “When We Ruled”, by Robin Walker
(26) “Essays In Ancient Egyptian Studies” by Dr. Jacob Carruthers
(27) “Mdw Ntr: Divine Speech” by Dr. Jacob Carruthers
(28) “The Ruins of Empires”, by Count Volney
(29) “Egypt: Light of Worlds”, by Gerald Massey
Revisiting the harem conspiracy and death of Ramesses III: anthropological, forensic, radiological, and genetic study
So now even japaneses are eurocentrists who hide the truth or is ramses a canaanite invader ?? LOOL
I think you have an improper understanding of how Egyptian history happened. Throughout Egyptian history Native Upper Egyptians mixed with non-black Lower Egyptians AND Asiatic immigrants. The Asiatics didn't see themselves as "invaders" but as citizens that deserved the right to lead the country just as any other Egyptian. However many of the southern rulers called them invaders because they didn't agree.
Asiatics that immigrated and mixed with locals. Ramses II was born around 1300 B.C. Several hundred years after Asiatics had began moving into Egypt in response to the Sahara reaching modern aridity and displacing people from their initial lands. And through all that Upper Egyptians also had thousands of years of mixing with lower non-black Egyptians. Two sources of mixing to dilute black features found in the original upper Egyptians. It would not surprise me if Ramses had some Semetic features or wasn't black at all. But if so, he wouldn't have had the most common phenotype of the original Upper Egyptians, but a mix of northern Egyptians and Asiatics.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: And I've only said that I don't deny the fact that the craddle of the egyptian civilization was in upper egypt ....but saying that all egyptians throughout all the eras looked like nubians is far-fetched and not true at all.
uh...thanks for debunking something we generally don't even argue here? I for one have been saying the opposite.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Most egyptians and pharaohs looked like other middle easterners and north africans.
Most UPPER Egyptians that were the ORIGINAL founders looked like Ethiopians and Nubians. No one was arguing ALL Egyptians through all eras looked like them. But that the founders DID.
Dude, sorry I have to interject here.....
Ramses was from Upper Egypt and his family upper Egyptian and not very mixed. The point being that if there was any mixture it was between Upper Egyptians and people further south. Sure some mixture did occur from elsewhere but as mentioned before the power base and origin of Egyptian culture was always in the South and derived from Southern populations.
Anwar Sadat is a modern example of features similar to Ramses:
19th dynasty rulers: Ramses 1: Seti 1: Ramses II Merenptah: Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: here the opinion of a congolese about complexed afro-americans and their afrocentrism :
"As a proud Congolese who is well informed about his heritage, I state with certainty based on anthropological evidence that we are indeed the direct descendants of our Congolese forefathers not Ancient Egyptians. And I’m more certain of my ancestry than you are of your paternity. Many black Americans claim that they are descendants of the Ancient Egyptians because they’re ashamed of their lineage, their kinship and believe that their erudite forebears were nothing other than slaves, which leads them to research Pseudo-Histories just to make them feel better.
Furthermore, I also think it all comes down to inadequate education about our pre-slavery history. Blacks are referred to as “African-American” so Blacks assume that the entire continent is “ours.” Even then, many have such shame in being African that they try to claim other civilizations like Native Americans, Germanics, Slavs, Celts, Mediterraneans and Nords. And that Europeans came from other galaxy as extraterrestrial invaders just 100 years ago.
Yes Afrocentric is toxic, and spreads like wildfire among the Black communities, they act is if they’re gods gift to the world... Ready to judge and belittle anyone who begs to differ from their way of thinking.. I argue back at them here on many comments, but it seems to fall on deaf ears.... They have nothing but loathing in their mind sets, and only they can change. It’s a futile attempt at times."
Big respect to him that's a smart guy and real african
Here’s a response from a intelligent Brother G-checking this dimwitted fool’s crappy answer. Made by a real African! 💪🏿
EXCERPT:
Ben Kakengo Emangongo, What you’ve asserted here is completely incorrect and well thought out. Here is why. First, let’s unwrap some of what you’ve actually asserted here.
“…Many black Americans claim that they are descendants of the Ancient Egyptians because they’re ashamed of their lineage, their kinship and believe that their erudite forebears were nothing other than slaves, which leads them to research Pseudo-Histories just to make them feel better.”
Lol just with one pic I can debunk his "negroid pre-hyksos egypt" ...also using sources made by known afrocentrists who are not supported by any academy today won't help him. lol quoting sheikh anta diop the same guy that said that north africans are white because of vandals and that he found a hieroglyph on a baobab lmao.
Posted by Ty Daniels (Member # 23186) on :
His premise was RETARDED and misinformed from the beginning.
1. MOST AMERICANS, don't even know that Egypt is in Africa (This includes So-Called Afro Americans)
2. Many "African Americans" don't even consider themselves "Africans" (regardless how wrong they are about this) to begin with, so no, they aren't looking to Africa/Egypt for a sense of "Self Esteem".
3. Most "African Americans" can give 2-F**Ks about Egypt, and don't think about Egypt AT ALL.
4. The average "African American" is Christian by religion, and believes that "Ancient Egyptians were Evil".
Bring an Ankh into the "Average Christian" Black American home, and they will look at you like you are a "Devil Worshiper", especially with the older "Black American" population.
There is a reason why Harriet Tubman is paralleled to Moses and NOT PHARAOH.
Your General lack of knowledge about "African Americans" continues to drive your WRONG, ILL-FORMED BABBLE.
5. The Average "Black American" couldn't tell you jack $**t about the Moors, so no they aren't trying to be "Moors".
6. White "Europeans" (as a group/historically) have "Appropriated" Ancient Egypt, to a level that would make the most uncompromising "Afrocentric" seem moderate.
Damn near 100% of every movie, video game, comic book, children's book, school textbook, biblical illustration, "historical reenactment" about Ancient Egypt, is portrayed by "White Europeans" ( WITH BRITISH F**KING ACCENTS ).
Damn near all of them!
Yet NOT ONE SINGLE WORD out of you and the OTHER HYPOCRITES who seek to chastise "Afro Americans".
You even used some of those fake-a** modern illustrations in your post to "Prove" your point.
Your Anti-Black hypocrisy is so blatant it's repulsive.
Yet you "play" like you are only concerned with presenting the truth, as you "Protect Egypt" from the "Darkies".
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
quote:Lol just with one pic I can debunk his "negroid pre-hyksos egypt" ...also using sources made by known afrocentrists who are not supported by any academy today won't help him. lol quoting sheikh anta diop the same guy that said that north africans are white because of vandals and that he found a hieroglyph on a baobab lmao.
And you can do that, but your up against this....
Recent studies find the ancient Egyptians had a tropical body plan like sub-Saharan 'black' Africans and were not cold-adapted like European type populations. Tropical body plans also indicate darker-skin.
QUOTE
"The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the "super-Negroid" body plan described by Robins (1983).. This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations." (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.
a 2008 Study puts the ancient Egyptians closer to US Blacks than whites:
Quotes:
"Intralimb (crural and brachial) indices are significantly higher in ancient Egyptians than in American Whites (except crural index among females), i.e., Egyptians have relatively longer distal segments (Table 4). Intralimb indices are not significantly different between Egyptians and American Blacks... Many of those who have studied ancient Egyptians have commented on their characteristically ''tropical'' or ''African'' body plan (Warren, 1897; Masali, 1972; Robins, 1983; Robins and Shute, 1983, 1984, 1986; Zakrzewski, 2003). Egyptians also fall within the range of modern African populations (Ruff and Walker, 1993), but close to the upper limit of modern Europeans as well, at least for the crural index (brachial indices are definitely more ''African'').. In terms of femoral and tibial length to total skeletal height proportions, we found that ancient Egyptians are significantly different from US Blacks, although still closer to Blacks than to Whites.
Comparisons of linear body proportions of Old Kingdom and non-Old Kingdom period individuals, and workers and high officials in our sample found no statistically significant differences among them. Zakrzewski (2003) also found little evidence for differences in linear body proportions of Egyptians over a wider temporal range. In general, recent studies of skeletal variation among ancient Egyptians support scenarios of biological continuity through time. Irish (2006) analyzed quantitative and qualitative dental traits of 996 Egyptians from Neolithic through Roman periods, reporting the presence of a few outliers but concluding that the dental samples appear to be largely homogeneous and that the affinities observed indicate overall biological uniformity and continuity from Predynastic through Dynastic and Postdynastic periods.
Zakrzewski (2007) provided a comprehensive summary of previous Egyptian craniometric studies and examined Egyptian crania from six time periods. She found that the earlier samples were relatively more homogeneous in comparison to the later groups. However, overall results indicated genetic continuity over the Egyptian Predynastic and Early Dynastic periods, albeit with a high level of genetic diversity within the population, suggesting an indigenous process of state formation. She also concluded that while the biological patterning of the Egyptian population varied across time, no consistent temporal or spatial trends are apparent. Thus, the stature estimation formulae developed here may be broadly applicable to all ancient Egyptian populations.." ("Stature estimation in ancient Egyptians: A new technique based on anatomical reconstruction of stature." Michelle H. Raxter, Christopher B. Ruff, Ayman Azab, Moushira Erfan, Muhammad Soliman, Aly El-Sawaf, (Am J Phys Anthropol. 2008, Jun;136(2):147-55
Older limb studies find the same:
"In this regard it is interesting to note that limb proportions of Predynastic Naqada people in Upper Egypt are reported to be "Super-Negroid," meaning that the distal segments are elongated in the fashion of tropical Africans.....skin color intensification and distal limb elongation are apparent wherever people have been long-term residents of the tropics." (C.L. Brace, 1993. Clines and clusters..")
"An attempt has been made to estimate male and female Egyptian stature from long bone length using Trotter & Gleser negro stature formulae, previous work by the authors having shown that these rather than white formulae give more consistent results with male dynastic material... When consistency has been achieved in this way, predynastic proportions are founded to be such that distal segments of the limbs are even longer in relation to the proximal segments than they are in modern negroes. Such proportions are termed "super-negroid"...
Robins (1983) and Robins & Shute (1983) have shown that more consistent results are obtained from ancient Egyptian male skeletons if Trotter & Gleser formulae for negro are used, rather than those for whites which have always been applied in the past. .. their physical proportions were more like modern negroes than those of modern whites, with limbs that were relatively long compared with the trunk, and distal segments that were long compared with the proximal segments. If ancient Egyptian males had what may be termed negroid proportions, it seems reasonable that females did likewise." (Robins G, Shute CCD. 1986. Predynastic Egyptian stature and physical proportions. Hum Evol 1:313-324. Ruff CB. 1994.)
Modern anthropology shows that the ancient Egyptians are well within the range of tropical Africa, contradicting older research in the 1990s that sought to deny any relationship. The anthropologist below, Nancy Lovell was recommended by Mary lefkowitz in Black Athena Revisted.
"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas." (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York: Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)
The ancient Badarians were quite representative of ancient Egyptians as a whole and showed clear links with tropical Africans to the south. They have been sometimes excluded in studies of the ancient Egyptian population, which shows continuity in its history, not mass influxes of foreigners until the late periods.
Quotes: "As a result of their facial prognathism, the Badarian sample has been described as forming a morphological cluster with Nubian, Tigrean, and other southern (or "Negroid") groups (Morant, 1935, 1937; Mukherjee et al., 1955; Nutter, 1958, Strouhal, 1971; Angel, 1972; Keita, 1990). Cranial nonmetric trait studies have found this group to be similar to other Egyptians, including much later material (Berry and Berry, 1967, 1972), but also to be significantly different from LPD material (Berry et al., 1967). Similarly, the study of dental nonmetric traits has suggested that the Badarian population is at the centroid of Egyptian dental samples (Irish, 2006), thereby suggesting similarity and hence continuity across Egyptian time periods. From the central location of the Badarian samples in Figure 2, the current study finds the Badarian to be relatively morphologically close to the centroid of all the Egyptian samples. The Badarian have been shown to exhibit greatest morphological similarity with the temporally successive EPD (Table 5). Finally, the biological distinctiveness of the Badarian from other Egyptian samples has also been demonstrated (Tables 6 and 7).
These results suggest that the EDyn do form a distinct morphological pattern. Their overlap with other Egyptian samples (in PC space, Fig. 2) suggests that although their morphology is distinctive, the pattern does overlap with the other time periods. These results therefore do not support the Petrie concept of a \Dynastic race" (Petrie, 1939; Derry, 1956). Instead, the results suggest that the Egyptian state was not the product of mass movement of populations into the Egyptian Nile region, but rather that it was the result of primarily indigenous development combined with prolonged small-scale migration, potentially from trade, military, or other contacts.
This evidence suggests that the process of state formation itself may have been mainly an indigenous process, but that it may have occurred in association with in-migration to the Abydos region of the Nile Valley. This potential in-migration may have occurred particularly during the EDyn and OK. A possible explanation is that the Egyptian state formed through increasing control of trade and raw materials, or due to military actions, potentially associated with the use of the Nile Valley as a corridor for prolonged small scale movements through the desert environment. (Sonia R. Zakrzewski. (2007). Population Continuity or Population Change: Formation of the Ancient Egyptian State. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 132:501-509)
Ancient Egyptians most related to other Africans and are part of a Nilotic continuity rather than something Mediterranean or Middle Eastern
"Certainly there was some foreign admixture [in Egypt], but basically a homogeneous African population had lived in the Nile Valley from ancient to modern times... [the] Badarian people, who developed the earliest Predynastic Egyptian culture, already exhibited the mix of North African and Sub-Saharan physical traits that have typified Egyptians ever since (Hassan 1985; Yurco 1989; Trigger 1978; Keita 1990.. et al.,)... The peoples of Egypt, the Sudan, and much of East African Ethiopia and Somalia are now generally regarded as a Nilotic continuity, with widely ranging physical features (complexions light to dark, various hair and craniofacial types) but with powerful common cultural traits, including cattle pastoralist traditions.." (Frank Yurco, "An Egyptological Review," 1996 -in Mary R. Lefkowitz and Guy MacLean Rogers, Black Athena Revisited, 1996, The University of North Carolina Press, p. 62-100)
African peoples are the most diverse in the world whether analyzed by DNA or skeletal or cranial methods. Attempts to deny this are rooted in racism and error. African people, particularly SUB-SAHARAN Africans, vary the most in how they look, more so than any other population in the world.
"Estimates of genetic diversity in major geographic regions are frequently made by pooling all individuals into regional aggregates. This method can potentially bias results if there are differences in population substructure within regions, since increased variation among local populations could inflate regional diversity. A preferred method of estimating regional diversity is to compute the mean diversity within local populations. Both methods are applied to a global sample of craniometric data consisting of 57 measurements taken on 1734 crania from 18 local populations in six geographic regions: sub-Saharan Africa, Europe, East Asia, Australasia, Polynesia, and the Americas. Each region is represented by three local populations.
Both methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies." (Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5, October 2001, pp. 629-636)
"In addition, craniometric variation also shows agreement with genetic data in showing highest levels of diversity in sub-Saharan Africa than in other geographic regions (Relethford and Harpending, 1994). Further, there is a clear decline in levels of craniometric variation as geographic distance from East Africa increases (Manica et al., 2007; von Cramon-Taubadel and Lycett, 2008; Betti et al., 2009)." -- John H. Relethford* (2010). Population-Specific Deviations of Global Human Craniometric Variation From a Neutral Model. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 2010
"The living peoples of the African continent are diverse in facial characteristics, stature, skin color, hair form, genetics, and other characteristics. No one set of characteristics is more African than another. Variability is also found in "sub-Saharan" Africa, to which the word "Africa" is sometimes erroneously restricted. There is a problem with definitions. Sometimes Africa is defined using cultural factors, like language, that exclude developments that clearly arose in Africa. For example, sometimes even the Horn of Africa (Somalia, Ethiopia, Eritrea) is excluded because of geography and language and the fact that some of its peoples have narrow noses and faces.
However, the Horn is at the same latitude as Nigeria, and its languages are African. The latitude of 15 degree passes through Timbuktu, surely in "sub-Saharan Africa," as well as Khartoum in Sudan; both are north of the Horn. Another false idea is that supra-Saharan and Saharan Africa were peopled after the emergence of "Europeans" or Near Easterners by populations coming from outside Africa. Hence, the ancient Egyptians in some writings have been de-Africanized. These ideas, which limit the definition of Africa and Africans, are rooted in racism and earlier, erroneous "scientific" approaches." (S. Keita, "The Diversity of Indigenous Africans," in Egypt in Africa, Theodore Clenko, Editor (1996), pp. 104-105. [10])
Modern DNA studies find even though some African peoples look different, they are genetically related through the PN2 transition clade of the Y-chromosone. Haplogroup E links numerous peoples together even though they don't look exactly the same.
"But the Y-chromosome clade defined by the PN2 transition (PN2/M35, PN2/M2) shatters the boundaries of phenotypically defined races and true breeding populations across a great geographical expanse. African peoples with a range of skin colors, hair forms and physiognomies have substantial percentages of males whose Y chromosomes form closely related clades with each other, but not with others who are phenotypically similar. The individuals in the morphologically or geographically defined 'races' are not characterized by 'private' distinct lineages restricted to each of them." (S O Y Keita, R A Kittles, et al. "Conceptualizing human variation," Nature Genetics 36, S17 - S20 (2004)
"Recall that the Horn-Nile Valley crania show, as a group, the largest overlap with other regions. A review of the recent literature indicates that there are male lineage ties between African peoples who have been traditionally labeled as being ''racially'' different, with ''racially'' implying an ontologically deep divide. The PN2 transition, a Y chromosome marker, defines a lineage (within the YAPþ derived haplogroup E or III) that emerged in Africa probably before the last glacial maximum, but after the migration of modern humans from Africa (see Semino et al., 2004). This mutation forms a clade that has two daughter subclades (defined by the biallelic markers M35/215 (or 215/M35) and M2) that unites numerous phenotypically variant African populations from the supra-Saharan, Saharan, and sub-Saharan regions.." (S.O.Y Keita. Exploring northeast African metric craniofacial variation at the individual level: A comparative study using principal component analysis. Am. J. Hum. Biol. 16:679-689, 2004.)
"Africa contains tremendous cultural, linguistic and genetic diversity, and has more than 2,000 distinct ethnic groups and languages.. Studies using mitochondrial (mt)DNA and nuclear DNA markers consistently indicate that Africa is the most genetically diverse region of the world." (Tishkoff SA, Williams SM., Genetic analysis of African populations: human evolution and complex disease. Nature Reviews Genetics. 2002 Aug (8):611-21.)
DNA of some modern Egyptians found a genetic ancestral heritage to East Africa: "The mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) diversity of 58 individuals from Upper Egypt, more than half (34 individuals) from Gurna, whose population has an ancient cultural history, were studied by sequencing the control-region and screening diagnostic RFLP markers. This sedentary population presented similarities to the Ethiopian population by the L1 and L2 macrohaplogroup frequency (20.6%), by the West Eurasian component (defined by haplogroups H to K and T to X) and particularly by a high frequency (17.6%) of haplogroup M1. We statistically and phylogenetically analysed and compared the Gurna population with other Egyptian, Near East and sub-Saharan Africa populations; AMOVA and Minimum Spanning Network analysis showed that the Gurna population was not isolated from neighbouring populations. Our results suggest that the Gurna population has conserved the trace of an ancestral genetic structure from an ancestral East African population, characterized by a high M1 haplogroup frequency. The current structure of the Egyptian population may be the result of further influence of neighbouring populations on this ancestral population." (Stevanovitch A, Gilles A, Bouzaid E, et al. (2004) Mitochondrial DNA sequence diversity in a sedentary population from Egypt.Ann Hum Genet. 68(Pt 1):23-39.)
Tishkoff et al on Africa having the most genetic diversity:
"Africa contains tremendous cultural, linguistic and genetic diversity, and has more than 2,000 distinct ethnic groups and languages (see online link to Ethnologue). Studies using mitochondrial (mt)DNA and nuclear DNA markers consistently indicate that Africa is the most genetically diverse region of the world(TABLE 1).However,most studies report only a few markers in divergent African populations, which makes it difficult to draw general conclusions about the levels and patterns of genetic diversity in these populations (FIG. 1). Because genetic studies have been biased towards more economically developed African countries that have key research or medical centres, populations from more underdeveloped or politically unstable regions of Africa remain undersampled (FIG. 1). Historically, human population genetic studies have relied on one or two African populations as being representative of African diversity, but recent studies show extensive genetic variation among even geographically close African populations, which indicates that there is not a single 'representative' African population." -- Tishkoff NATURE REVIEWS | GENETICS VOLUME 3 | AUGUST 2002
Mainstream scholars note that genetic studies often usen a narrow range of stereotyped samples to represent 'Africans', even splitting off peoples of the Horn of Africa as some seperate "non african" type or race.[b]
"Genetic studies that attempt to recover the biological history of the species have generally found that there is a split between their restricted African samples and "the rest of the world." These approaches conceptualize human population history as a series of bifurcations with each node being relatively uniform. The "Africans" usually used are either the short statured Aka or Mbuti, Khoisan speakers, or West African stereotypes, in keeping with a socially, not scientifically constructed concept of African. Studies using individuals as the unit of analysis evince a different pattern. A select subset of Africans called the "group of 49" forms a unit versus the rest of humankind. However the latter individuals ("rest of humankind") also includes non-East African sub-Saharans. Hence there is no "racial" split. As has been stated, the idea that human variation can be described as being structured by subspecies(races) that are treated as lineages is fundamentally false. In actuality, also, although averages are used, the gene studies usually give us histories that are not necessarily the same as population histories." (Writing African History Chapter 4, Physical Anthropology and African History, Shomarka Keita University of Rochester Press p.134
[b]Continent wide African DNA linkages "The most extensive pan-African haplotype (16189 16192 16223 16278 16294 16309 16390) is in the L2a1 haplogroup. This sequence is observed in West Africa among the Malinke, Wolof, and others; in North Africa among the Maure, Hausa, Fulbe, and others; in Central Africa among the Bamileke, Fali, and others; in South Africa among the Khoisan family including the Khwe and Bantu speakers; and in East Africa among the Kikuyu. Closely related variants are observed among the Tuareg in North and West Africa and among the East African Dinka and Somali." (-- Bert Ely , Jamie Lee Wilson , Fatimah Jackson and Bruce A Jackson. (2006). African-American mitochondrial DNAs often match mtDNAs found in multiple African ethnic groups. BMC Biology 2006, 4:34)
"It is of interest that the M35 and M2 lineages are united by a mutation - the PN2 transition. This PN2 defined clade originated in East Africa, where various populations have a notable frequency of its underived state. This would suggest that an ancient population in East Africa, or more correctly its males, form the basis of the ancestors of all African upper Paleolithic populations - and their subsequent descendants in the present day." (--Bengston, John D. (ed.), In Hot Pursuit of Language in Prehistory: Essays in the four fields of anthropology. 2008. John Benjamins Publishing: pp. 3-16)
Egyptian Y-chromosome haplotypes show preponderance is with African clusters not Europe or the Near East
Recent DNA studies of the Sudan show genetic unity and linkage between the Sudanic, Horn, Egyptian, Nubian and other Nilotic peoples, confirming earlier skeletal/cranial studies and historical data. (Yurco (1989, 1996), Keita (1993,2004, 2005) Lovell (1999), Zakrewski (2003, 2007) et. al). Of note is that DNA data shows that some peoples linked to one of the oldest Egyptian populations, the original Copts, have a significant frequency of the B-M60 marker, indicating early colonization of Egypt by Nilotics in the state formation period.
QUOTES:
"Haplogroup E-M78, however, is more widely distributed and is thought to have an origin in eastern African. More recently, this haplogroup has been carefully dissected and was found to depict several well-established subclades with defined geographical clustering (Cruciani et al., 2006, 2007). Although this haplogroup is common to most Sudanese populations, it has exceptionally high frequency among populations like those of western Sudan (particularly Darfur) and the Beja in eastern Sudan... Although the PC plot places the Beja and Amhara from Ethiopia in one sub-cluster based on shared frequencies of the haplogroup J1, the distribution of M78 subclades (Table 2) indicates that the Beja are perhaps related as well to the Oromo on the basis of the considerable frequencies of E-V32 among Oromo in comparison to Amhara (Cruciani et al., 2007)...
These findings affirm the historical contact between Ethiopia and eastern Sudan (1998), and the fact that these populations speak languages of the Afroasiatic family tree reinforces the strong correlation between linguistic and genetic diversity (Cavalli-Sforza, 1997)."
"Genetic continuum of the Nubians with their kin in southern Egypt is indicated by comparable frequencies of E-V12 the predominant M78 subclade among southern Egyptians." [Hassan et al. Y-chromosome variation.." Am J. Phy Anthro. v137,3. 316-323
"The Copt samples displayed a most interesting Y-profile, enough (as much as that of Gaalien in Sudan) to suggest that they actually represent a living record of the peopling of Egypt. The significant frequency of B-M60 in this group might be a relic of a history of colonization of southern Egypt probably by Nilotics in the early state formation, something that conforms both to recorded history and to Egyptian mythology." Source: (Hisham Y. Hassan 1, Peter A. Underhill 2, Luca L. Cavalli-Sforza 2, Muntaser E. Ibrahim 1. (2008). Y-chromosome variation among Sudanese: Restricted gene flow, concordance with language, geography, and history. Am J Phys Anthropology, 2008. Volume 137 Issue 3, Pages 316 - 323)
Older research notes the physical makeup of the original Copts, now confirmed by recent DNA data above: "In Libya, which is mostly desert and oasis, there is a visible Negroid element in the sedentary populations, and at the same is true of the Fellahin of Egypt, whether Copt or Muslim. Osteological studies have shown that the Negroid element was stronger in predynastic times than at present, reflecting an early movement northward along the banks of the Nile, which were then heavily forested." (Encyclopedia Britannica 1984 ed. "Populations, Human")
Haplogroup E3A and E3B represent more than 70% of the Y-chromosones on the African continent, with varying proportions found in different parts of the continent. In some African populations for example, E3B exceeds 80%. Migrations out of Africa, are responsible for the spread of E3b to Europe. Non-Africans thus acquired a sub-set f African genes through this migration.
"In Europe, the overall frequency pattern of haplogroup E-M78 does not support the hypothesis of a uniform spread of people from a single parental Near Eastern population... The Y chromosome specific biallelic marker DYS271 defines the most common haplogroup (E3a) currently found in sub-Saharan Africa. A sister clade, E3b (E-M215), is rare in sub-Saharan Africa, but very common in northern and eastern Africa. On the whole, these two clades represent more than 70% of the Y chromosomes of the African continent. A third clade belonging to E3 (E3c or E-M329) has been recently reported to be present only in eastern Africa, at low frequencies.. The new topology of the E3 haplogroup is suggestive of a relatively recent eastern African origin for the majority of the chromosomes presently found in sub-Saharan Africa."
"In conclusion, we detected the signatures of several distinct processes of migration and/or recurrent gene flow associated with the dispersal of haplogroup E3b lineages. Early events involved the dispersal of E-M78d chromosomes from eastern Africa into and out of Africa, as well as the introduction of the E-M34 subclade into Africa from the Near East. Later events involved short-range migrations within Africa (E-M78? and E-V6) and from northern Africa into Europe (E-M81 and E-M78ß), as well as an important range expansion from the Balkans to western and southern-central Europe (E-M78a). This latter expansion was the main contributor to the present distribution of E3b chromosomes in Europe."
(Cruciani, F, et. al. (2004) Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa, Am J Hum Genet. 74(5): 1014-1022.)
Somalis link much more heavily with African populations such as those in Kenya and Ethiopia than Middle Eastern or European ones according to DNA evidence. Eurasian genes only accounted for about 15% of the mix among Somalis, typically associated with recent Arab influence. On such key common DNA markers as E3b1, Europeans only weighed in at 5%, and Middle Easterners at approximately 6%. The overwhelming link of Somalis- over 85% of the total is with Africans. Kenya and Ethiopia are located in "sub-Saharan" Africa.
"The high frequency (77.6%) of haplogroup E3b1 was characteristic of male Somalis. The frequency of E3b1 was significantly lower in Ethiopian Oromos (35.9%), Ethiopian Amharas (22.9%), Egyptians (20.0%), Sudanese (17.5%), Kenyans (15.1%),10 Iraqis (6.3%), Northern Africans (6.1%), Southern Europeans (0.5-5.1%) and sub-Saharan populations." (Sanchez et al.,(2005) High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages characterized by E3b1, DYS19-11, DYS392-12 in Somali males, Eu J of Hum Genet (2005) 13, 856-866)[/i]
More on Haplogroup E here: from GENEBASE: http://www.genebase.com/app/item.php?aiId=35 "E1 is the predominant subclade, while E2 is much less frequent. Within E1, E1b1 (defined by SNP P2) is the most abundant and widespread representative, and accounts for most of Haplogroup E worldwide. E1b1 lineages vary in abundance over Africa and three main regions are evident from the distribution peaks of three subclades: E1b1a (SNP M2) in Sub-Saharan Africa, E1b1b1a (SNP M78) in East Africa and E1b1b1b (SNP M81) in Northwest Africa. The difference in geographic location of Haplogroup E subclades also aligns with distinct language groups supporting the idea that there is prevailing father to son transmission of language in Africa. "
------------------------------------------------------------------ Simplistic "race percentage" models are dubious in Africa which has the highest genetic diversity in the world. That diversity proceeded from deeper sub-Saharan Africa, to East and N.E. Africa, then to the rest of the globe. All other populations, including Europeans and "Middle easterners" carry this diversity which was built into Africa to begin with. Africans thus don't need any "race mix" to look different. Their diversity is built-in and supplied the whole globe. Any returnees or "backflow" to Africa looked like Africans. (Brace 2005, Hanihara 1996, Holliday 2003).
" These studies suggest a recent and primary subdivision between African and non-African populations, high levels of divergence among African populations, and a recent shared common ancestry of non-African populations, from a population originating in Africa. The intermediate position, between African and non-African populations, that the Ethiopian Jews and Somalis occupy in the PCA plot also has been observed in other genetic studies (Ritte et al. 1993; Passarino et al. 1998) and could be due either to shared common ancestry or to recent gene flow. The fact that the Ethiopians and Somalis have a subset of the sub-Saharan African haplotype diversity and that the non-African populations have a subset of the diversity present in Ethiopians and Somalis makes simple-admixture models less likely; rather, these observations support the hypothesis proposed by other nuclear-genetic studies (Tishkoff et al. 1996a, 1998a, 1998b; Kidd et al. 1998) that populations in northeastern Africa may have diverged from those in the rest of sub-Saharan Africa early in the history of modern African populations and that a subset of this northeastern-African population migrated out of Africa and populated the rest of the globe. These conclusions are supported by recent mtDNA analysis (Quintana-Murci et al. 1999)." [Tishkoff et al. (2000) Short Tandem-Repeat Polymorphism/Alu Haplotype Variation at the PLAT Locus: Implications for Modern Human Origins. Am J Hum Genet; 67:901-925]
Data on Ethiopian peoples like the Oromo are underreported even though they make up the largest group percentage wise in the Ethiopian population, (50%) and are often pooled with others, hiding and obscuring their overall contribution to the Ethiopian gene pool.
"This difference, not revealed in the study by Passarino et al. (1998), in which the Oromo were underrepresented, might reflect distinct population histories." (--Semino, et al. (2002). Ethiopians and Khoisan Share the Deepest Clades of the Human Y..")
"These data, together with those reported elsewhere (Ritte et al. 1993a, 1993b; Hammer et al. 2000) suggest that the Ethiopian Jews acquired their religion without substantial genetic admixture from Middle Eastern peoples and that they can be considered an ethnic group with essentially a continental African genetic composition." (Cruciani, et. al Am J Hum Genet. 2002 May; 70(5): 1197-1214. "A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes)
"An earlier generation of anthropologists tried to explain face form in the Horn of Africa as the result of admixture from hypothetical “wandering Caucasoids,”.. but that explanation founders on the paradox of why that supposedly potent “Caucasoid” people contributed a dominant quantity of genes for nose and face form but none for skin color or limb proportions." --CL Brace, 1993
[Afrocentric critic Mary Leftokwitz says Egypt was peopled by persons from sub-Saharan Africa:
"Recent work on skeletons and DNA suggests that the people who settled in the Nile valley, like all of humankind, came from somewhere south of the Sahara; they were not (as some nineteenth-century scholars had supposed) invaders from the North. See Bruce G. Trigger, "The Rise of Civilization in Egypt," Cambridge History of Africa (Cambridge, Cambridge University Press, 1982), vol I, pp 489-90; S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54. (Mary Lefkotitz (1997). Not Out of Africa: How Afrocentrism Became an Excuse to Teach Myth as History. Basic Books. pg 242) [/QB][/QUOTE]
In Black Athena Revisited, Lefkowitz finds similarity between Egyptians and Sudanics and recommends the work of conservative anthropologist Nancy Lovell for more research on the subject.
Quote: "not surprisingly, the Egyptian skulls were not very distance from the Jebel Moya [a Neolithic site in the southern Sudan] skulls, but were much more distance from all others, including those from West Africa. Such a study suggests a closer genetic affinity between peoples in Egypt and the northern Sudan, which were close geographically and are known to have had considerable cultural contact throughout prehistory and pharaonic history... Clearly more analyses of the physical remains of ancient Egyptians need to be done using current techniques, such as those of Nancy Lovell at the University of Alberta is using in her work.."
Lefkotitz cites Keita 1993 in Not Out of Africa. Here is Keita on the Jebel Moya studies?
"Overall, when the Egyptian crania are evaluated in a Near Eastern (Lachish) versus African (Kerma, Jebel Moya, Ashanti) context) the affinity is with the Africans. The Sudan and Palestine are the most appropriate comparative regions which would have 'donated' people, along with the Sahara and Maghreb. Archaeology validates looking to these regions for population flow (see Hassan 1988)... Egyptian groups showed less overall affinity to Palestinian and Byzantine remains than to other African series, especially Sudanese." [/img] S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54
Hereis the work of the anthropologist so strongly recommended by Lefkowitz, Nancy Lovell:
"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas." (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York: Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)
and
"must be placed in the context of hypotheses informed by archaeological, linguistic, geographic and other data. In such contexts, the physical anthropological evidence indicates that early Nile Valley populations can be identified as part of an African lineage, but exhibiting local variation. This variation represents the short and long term effects of evolutionary forces, such as gene flow, genetic drift, and natural selection, influenced by culture and geography." ("Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York: Routledge, 1999). pp 328-332)
Obviously, this shows that the Egyptians were completely white, and how foolish the Afrocentrists are to reject this notion. After all Afrocentric critic Mary Lefkowitz recommends Lovell's research..
The same Nancy Lovell recommended by Lefkowitz studied dental traits among some high status persons of the key Egyptian Naqada group and found that they resembled the peoples of Nubia.
T. Prowse, and N. Lovell "Concordance of cranial and dental morphological traits and evidence for endogamy in ancient Egypt" American journal of physical anthropology. 1996, vol. 101, no2, pp. 237-246 (2 p.1/4)
A biological affinities study based on frequencies of cranial nonmetric traits in skeletal samples from three cemeteries at Predynastic Naqada, Egypt, confirms the results of a recent nonmetric dental morphological analysis. Both cranial and dental traits analyses indicate that the individuals buried in a cemetery characterized archaeologically as high status are significantly different from individuals buried in two other, apparently non-elite cemeteries and that the non-elite samples are not significantly different from each other. A comparison with neighboring Nile Valley skeletal samples suggests that the high status cemetery represents an endogamous ruling or elite segment of the local population at Naqada, which is more closely related to populations in northern Nubia than to neighboring populations in southern Egypt.
Lefkowitz warns against Eurocentric "racial" analysis as to the Egyptians and Nubians.
Quote: "The Nubian tribute-bearers are painted in two skin tones, black and dark brown. These tones do not necessarily represent actual skin tones in real life but may serve to distinguish each tribute-bearer from the next in a row in which the figures overlap. Alternatively, the brown-skinned people may be of Nubian origin, and the black-skinned ones may be farther south 9Trigger 1978, 33). The shading of skin tones in Egyptian tomb paintings, which varies considerably, may not be a certain criterion for distinguishing race. Specific symbols of ethnic identity can also vary. Identifying race in Egyptian representational art, again, is difficult to do- probably because race (as opposed to ethnic affiliation, that is, Egyptians versus all non-Egyptians) was not a criterion for differentiation used by the ancient Egyptians...
Northern Egypt shows more physical variation than the south, but not necessarily as part of any significant 'race' mix, but local, built-in variation. They were closer to southerners than any other peoples. In comparisons with "Middle Eastern" populations of the same ancient period, the Egyptians link more closely with other Africans than the Middle Easterners. Africans vary in how they look because they have the highest built-in molecular diversity to begin with.
QUOTE(s): "..sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into southern Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans." (Barry Kemp, "Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation. (2005) Routledge. p. 52-60)
"Individuals from different geographical regions frequently plotted near each other, revealing aspects of variation at the level of individuals that is obscured by concentrating on the most distinctive facial traits once used to construct ''types.''The high level of African interindividual variation in craniometric pattern is reminiscent of the great level of molecular diversity found in Africa." (S.O.Y Keita. Exploring northeast African metric craniofacial variation at the individual level: A comparative study using principal component analysis. Am. J. Hum. Biol. 16:679-689, 2004.)
Quote on northern Egypt analysis- the Qarunian (Faiyum) remains (c. 7000 BC) "The body was that of a forty-year old woman with a height of about 1.6 meters, who was of a more modern racial type than the classic 'Mechtoid' of the Fakhurian culture (see pp. 65-6), being generally more gracile, having large teeth and thick jaws bearing some resemblance to the modern 'negroid' type." (Beatrix Midant-Reynes, Ian Shaw (2000). The Prehistory of Egypt. Wiley-Blackwell. pg. 82)
Modern studies show diversity in how people look is heavily based on distance from sub-Saharan Africa, not merely climate. In genetically diverse Africa, broad-nosed people live on the cool or cold mountain slopes of East Africa or the hot, dry Sahara, and narrow-nosed peoples like many Fulani like in the wet tropics of West Africa. Yellowish-skinned San tribes live in the hot zones of Southern Africa.
"The relative importance of ancient demography and climate in determining worldwide patterns of human within-population phenotypic diversity is still open to debate. Several morphometric traits have been argued to be under selection by climatic factors, but it is unclear whether climate affects the global decline in morphological diversity with increasing geographical distance from sub-Saharan Africa. Using a large database of male and female skull measurements, we apply an explicit framework to quantify the relative role of climate and distance from Africa. We show that distance from sub-Saharan Africa is the sole determinant of human within-population phenotypic diversity, while climate plays no role. By selecting the most informative set of traits, it was possible to explain over half of the worldwide variation in phenotypic diversity. These results mirror those previously obtained for genetic markers and show that 'bones and molecules' are in perfect agreement for humans." (Distance from Africa, not climate, explains within-population phenotypic diversity in humans. (2008) by: Lia Betti, François Balloux, William Amos, Tsunehiko Hanihara, Andrea Manica, Proceedings B: Biological Sciences, 2008/12/02)
Analysis of skeletal and cranial remains reveals that the ancient Egyptians of the early Dynastic and pre-Dynastic phases, link closer to nearby Saharan, Sudanic and East African populations than Mediterranean and Middle Eastern peoples. Greeks, Romans, Hyskos, Arabs and others were to appear later in Egyptian history. Craniometric studies generally place ancient Upper Egyptian populations closer to the range of tropical Africans in the Nile Valley and East Africa than to Mediterraneans, or Middle Easterners.
QUOTE(s): S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54
"Overall, when the Egyptian crania are evaluated in a Near Eastern (Lachish) versus African (Kerma, Kebel Moya, Ashanti) context) the affinity is with the Africans. The Sudan and Palestine are the most appropriate comparative regions which would have 'donated' people, along with the Sahara and Maghreb. Archaeology validates looking to these regions for population flow (see Hassan 1988)... Egyptian groups showed less overall affinity to Palestinian and Byzantine remains than to other African series, especially Sudanese." (Keita 1993)
"When the unlikely relationships [Indian matches] and eliminated, the Egyptian series are more similar overall to other African series than to European or Near Eastern (Byzantine or Palestinian) series." (Keita 1993)
"Populations and cultures now found south of the desert roamed far to the north. The culture of Upper Egypt, which became dynastic Egyptian civilization, could fairly be called a Sudanese transplant."(Egypt and Sub-Saharan Africa: Their Interaction. Encyclopedia of Precolonial Africa, by Joseph O. Vogel, AltaMira Press, Walnut Creek, California (1997), pp. 465-472 )
"Analysis of crania is the traditional approach to assessing ancient population origins, relationships, and diversity. In studies based on anatomical traits and measurements of crania, similarities have been found between Nile Valley crania from 30,000, 20,000 and 12,000 years ago and various African remains from more recent times (see Thoma 1984; Brauer and Rimbach 1990; Angel and Kelley 1986; Keita 1993). Studies of crania from southern predynastic Egypt, from the formative period (4000-3100 B.C.), show them usually to be more similar to the crania of ancient Nubians, Kushites, Saharans, or modern groups from the Horn of Africa than to those of dynastic northern Egyptians or ancient or modern southern Europeans." (S. O. Y and A.J. Boyce, "The Geographical Origins and Population Relationships of Early Ancient Egyptians", in Egypt in Africa, Theodore Celenko (ed), Indiana University Press, 1996, pp. 20-33)
"There is no archaeological, linguistic, or historical data which indicate a European or Asiatic invasion of, or migration to, the Nile Valley during First Dynasty times. Previous concepts about the origin of the First Dynasty Egyptians as being somehow external to the Nile Valley or less native are not supported by archaeology... In summary, the Abydos First Dynasty royal tomb contents reveal a notable craniometric heterogeneity. Southerners predominate. (Kieta, S. (1992) Further Studies of Crania From Ancient Northern Africa: An Analysis of Crania From First Dynasty Egyptian Tombs, Using Multiple Discriminant Functions. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 87:245-254)"
"The predominant craniometric pattern in the Abydos royal tombs is 'southern' (tropical African variant), and this is consistent with what would be expected based on the literature and other results (Keita, 1990). This pattern is seen in both group and unknown analyses... Archaeology and history seem to provide the most parsimonious explanation for the variation in the royal tombs at Abydos.. Tomb design suggests the presence of northerners in the south in late Nakada times (Hoffman, 1988) when the unification probably took place. Delta names are attached to some of the tombs at Abydos (Gardiner, 1961; Yurco, 1990, personal communication), thus perhaps supporting Petrie's (1939) and Gardiner's contention that north-south marriages were undertaken to legitimize the hegemony of the south. The courtiers of northern elites would have accompanied them.
Given all of the above, it is probably not possible to view the Abydos royal tomb sample as representative of the general southern Upper Egyptian population of the time. Southern elites and/or their descendants eventually came to be buried in the north (Hoffman, 1988). Hence early Second Dynasty kings and Djoser (Dynasty 111) (Hayes, 1953) and his descendants are not buried in Abydos. Petrie (1939) states that the Third Dynasty, buried in the north, was of Sudanese origin, but southern Egypt is equally likely. This perhaps explains Harris and Weeks' (1973) suggested findings of southern morphologies in some Old Kingdom Giza remains, also verified in portraiture (Drake, 1987). Further study would be required to ascertain trends in the general population of both regions. The strong Sudanese affinity noted in the unknown analyses may reflect the Nubian interactions with upper Egypt in predynastic times prior to Egyptian unification (Williams, 1980,1986)..." (S. Keita (1992) Further Studies of Crania From Ancient Northern Africa: An Analysis of Crania From First Dynasty Egyptian Tombs, Using Multiple Discriminant Functions. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 87:245-254)
"When the Elephantine results were added to a broader pooling of the physical characteristics drawn from a wide geographic region which includes Africa, the Mediterranean and the Near East quite strong affinities emerge between Elephantine and populations from Nubia, supporting a strong south-north cline. (Barry Kemp. (2006) Ancient Egypt: Anatomy of a Civilization. p. 54)
Gene flow into the Nubian area during the Neolithic was not from reputed "wandering Caucasoids" but from tropical, Sub-Saharan types.
"Prior to the Neolithic, populations of the Nile Valley in Nubia are very robust, and, because of a gap in the fossil record, it is difficult to connect them to later populations. Some have postulated a local evolution, due to diet change, while others postulated migrations, especially from the Sahara area. But between 5000 and 1000 BC, many cemeteries have supplied a large amount of skeletons, and the anatomical characters of Nubian populations are easier to follow-up. Twenty-seven archaeological samples (4 at 5000 BC, 5 at 4000 BC, 10 at 3000 BC, 3 at 2000 BC, 5 at 1000 BC), and 10 craniofacial measurements, have been considered. While cerebral skull is fairly stable, facial skull displays several regular modifications, and specially a reduction of facial and nasal heights, a broadening of the nose, and an increase of prognathism, while bizygomatic breadth is unchanged. These features illustrate a trend towards a growing resemblance with populations of Sub-Saharan Africa living in wet environments. However, paleoclimatological studies show that Nubia experienced an increasing aridification during that period. It is then unlikely that such a morphological change could be related to any local adaptive evolution to environment. Random drift is also unlikely, because the anatomical trend is relatively uniform during these millennia. It then seems more plausible that these changes correspond to the increasing presence of Southern populations migrating northward." -- Froment, A. (2002) Morphological micro-evolution of Nubian Populations from, A-Group to Christian Epochs: gene flow, not local adaptation. Am J Phys Anthropol [Suppl] 34:72.
Afrocentric critic Froment also notes: "Black populations of the Horn of Africa (Tigré and Somalia) fit well into Egyptian variations." (Froment, Alain, Origines du peuplement de l’Égypte ancienne: l’apport de l’anthropobiologie, Archéo-Nil 2 (Octobre 1992), 79-98)
Afrocentric critic C. Loring Brace's 2005 study groups ancient Egyptian populations like the Naqada closer to Nubians and Somalis than European, Mediterranean or Middle Eastern populations. Brace's study shows that the closest European linking with Africans in Egypt or Nubia are Middle Stone Age Portugese and Neolithics, OLDER populations more closely resembling AFRICANS than modern Europeans. Early Neolithic populations, like the Nautifians, in what is now Israel, show sub-Saharan 'negroid' affinities. (Brace, et al. The questionable contribution of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to European craniofacial form, Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2006 January 3; 103(1): p. 242-247.)
"The Niger-Congo speakers, Congo, Dahomey and Haya, cluster closely with each other and a bit less closely with the Nubian sample, both the recent and the Bronze Age Nubians, and more remotely with the Naqada Bronze Age sample of Egypt, the modern Somalis, and the Arabic-speaking Fellaheen (farmers) of Israel. When those samples are separated and run in a single analysis as in Fig. 1, there clearly is a tie between them that is diluted the farther one gets from sub-Saharan Africa" (Brace, 2005)
"The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants, although the prehistoric/modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa... Interestingly enough, however, the small Natufian sample falls between the Niger-Congo group and the other samples used. Fig. 2 shows the plot produced by the first two canonical variates, but the same thing happens when canonical variates 1 and 3 (not shown here) are used. This placement suggests that there may have been a Sub-Saharan African element in the make-up of the Natufians (the putative ancestors of the subsequent Neolithic), .. When canonical variates are plotted, neither sample ties in with Cro-Magnon as was once suggested. The data treated here support the idea that the Neolithic moved out of the Near East into the circum-Mediterranean areas and Europe by a process of demic diffusion but that subsequently the in situ residents of those areas, derived from the Late Pleistocene inhabitants, absorbed both the agricultural life way and the people who had brought it." (Brace, 2005)
Both skeletal/cranial and DNA studies by other authors confirm that some Neolithics did not derive from the Near East. They most likely resembled African populations. Hence comparisons using older European Neolithics versus Africans are comparisons with older prehistoric Europeans who looked more like Africans, than modern 'white' Europeans, as shown by Brace (2005), and Hanihara (1996) also, who states "Early West Asians looked like Africans."
"The absence of mtDNA haplogroup J in the ancient Portuguese Neolithic sample suggests that this population was not derived directly from Near Eastern farmers. The Mesolithic and Neolithic groups show genetic discontinuity implying colonisation at the Neolithic transition in Portugal." (CHANDLER, H.; SYKES, B.; ZILHÃO, J. (2005) - Using ancient DNA to examine genetic continuity at the Mesolithic-Neolithic transition in Portugal, in ARIAS, P.; ONTAÑÓN, R.; GARCÍA-MONCÓ, C. (eds.) - «Actas del III Congreso del Neolítico en la Península Ibérica», Santander, Monografías del Instituto Internacional de Investigaciones Prehistóricas de Cantabria 1, p. 781-786.)
"Early Europeans still resembled modern tropical peoples - some resemble modern Australian and Africans, more than modern Europeans.. Nor does the picture get any clearer when we move on to the Cro-Magnons, the presumed ancestors of modern Europeans. Some were more like present-day Australians or Africans, judged by objective anatomical observations." (Christopher Stringer, Robin McKie (1998). African Exodus. Macmillan, p. 162)
Early Europeans, as recently as 6,000-9000 years ago, looked somewhat like Africans in terms of retained 'tropical' characteristics. Cold adaptation was to bring about several physical changes over time from the initial Out of Africa migrations to Europe. Retained traces of 'tropical' characteristics, indicate a "large African role in the origins of anatomically modern Europeans." (Holliday and Churchill 2003).
"Body proportions covary with climate, apparently as the result of climatic selection. Ontogenetic research and migrant studies have demonstrated that body proportions are largely genetically controlled and are under low selective rates; thus studies of body form can provide evidence for evolutionarily short-term dispersals and/or gene flow. Replacement predicts that the earliest modern Europeans will possess "tropical" body proportions (assuming Africa is the center of origin), while Regional Continuity permits only minor shifts in body shape, due to climatic change and/or improved cultural buffering. .. results refute the hypothesis of local continuity in Europe, and are consistent with an interpretation of elevated gene flow (and population dispersal?) from Africa, followed by subsequent climatic adaptation to colder conditions." (Holliday, Trenton (1997) Body proportions in Late Pleistocene Europe and modern human origins. Journal of Human Evolution, Volume 32, Issue 5, 1997, Pages 423-447)
".. while the Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic humans have significantly higher (i.e., tropically-adapted) brachial and crural indices than do recent Europeans, they also have shorter (i.e., cold-adapted) limbs. The somewhat paradoxical retention of "tropical" indices in the context of more "cold-adapted" limb length is best explained as evidence for Replacement in the European Late Pleistocene, followed by gradual cold adaptation in glacial Europe." (Holliday, Trenton (1999) Brachial and crural indices of European Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic humans. Journal of Human Evolution. Volume 36, Issue 5, May 1999, Pages 549-566)
"Stature, body mass, and body proportions are evaluated for the Cheddar Man (Gough's Cave 1) skeleton. Like many of his Mesolithic contemporaries, Gough's Cave 1 evinces relatively short estimated stature (ca. 166.2 cm [5' 5']) and low body mass (ca. 66 kg [146 lbs]). In body shape, he is similar to recent Europeans for most proportional indices. He differs, however, from most recent Europeans in his high crural index and tibial length/trunk height indices. Thus, while Gough's Cave 1 is characterized by a total morphological pattern considered 'cold-adapted', these latter two traits may be interpreted as evidence of a large African role in the origins of anatomically modern Europeans." (TRENTON W. HOLLIDAY a1 and STEVEN E. CHURCHILL. (2003). Gough's Cave 1 (Somerset, England): an assessment of body size and shape, Bulletin of the Natural History Museum: Geology, 58:37-44 Cambridge University Press)
More data showing early Europeans were tropically adapted types like Africans "Body proportions are under strong climatic selection and evince remarkable stability within regional lineages. As such, they offer a viable and robust alternative to cranio-facial data in assessing hypothesised continuity and replacement with the transition to agro-pastoralism in central Europe. Humero-clavicular, brachial and crural indices in a large sample (n=75) of Linienbandkeramik (LBK), Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age specimens from the middle Elbe-Saale-Werra valley (MESV) were compared with Eurasian and African terminal Pleistocene, European Mesolithic and geographically disparate recent human specimens. Mesolithic Europeans display considerable variation in humero-clavicular and brachial indices yet none approach the extreme "hyper-polar" morphology of LBK humans from the MESV. In contrast, Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age peoples display elongated brachial and crural indices reminiscent of terminal Pleistocene and "tropically adapted" recent humans. These marked morphological changes likely reflect exogenous immigration during the terminal Fourth millennium cal BC. Population expansion and diffusion is a function of increased mobility and settlement dispersal concomitant with significant technological and subsistence changes in later Neolithic societies during the late fourth millennium cal BCE." -- Gallagher et al. "Population continuity, demic diffusion and Neolithic origins in central-southern Germany: the evidence from body proportions." Homo. 2009;60(2):95-126. Epub 2009 Mar 4.
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
And this....
Early West Asians looked like Africans. Thus any ancient returnees or "backflow" from West Asia back to Africa is by people who look like Africans to begin with. Brace 2005 shows this as to Europeans. Hanihara 1996, demonstrates this below as to West Asians (i.e. 'Middle easterners'). Also see above.
quote: "Distance analysis and factor analysis, based on Q-mode correlation coefficients, were applied to 23 craniofacial measurements in 1,802 recent and prehistoric crania from major geographical areas of the Old World. The major findings are as follows: 1) Australians show closer similarities to African populations than to Melanesians. 2) Recent Europeans align with East Asians, and early West Asians resemble Africans. 3) The Asian population complex with regional difference between northern and southern members is manifest. 4) Clinal variations of craniofacial features can be detected in the Afro-European region on the one hand, and Australasian and East Asian region on the other hand. 5) The craniofacial variations of major geographical groups are not necessarily consistent with their geographical distribution pattern. This may be a sign that the evolutionary divergence in craniofacial shape among recent populations of different geographical areas is of a highly limited degree. Taking all of these into account, a single origin for anatomically modern humans is the most parsimonious interpretation of the craniofacial variations presented in this study." (Hanihara T. Comparison of craniofacial features of major human groups. Am J Phys Anthropol. 1996 Mar;99(3):389-412.)
Older studies often show misclassification or exclusion of Nile Valley remains deemed 'negroid'. Although clearly of the "African" type, such remains were frequently relabeled "Mediterranean."
"Analyses of Egyptian crania are numerous. Vercoutter (1978) notes that ancient Egyptian crania have frequently all been lumped (implicitly or explicitly) as Mediterranean, although Negroid remains are recorded in substantial numbers by many workers... "Nutter (1958), using the Penrose statistic, demonstrated that Nagada I and Badari crania, both regarded as Negroid, were almost identical and that these were most similar to the Negroid Nubian series from Kerma studied by Collett (1933). [Collett, not accepting variability, excluded "clear negro" crania found in the Kerma series from her analysis, as did Morant (1925), implying that they were foreign..." (S. Keita (1990) Studies of Ancient Crania From Northern Africa. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 83:35-48)
Different features among Africans, particularly EAST AFRICANS, like narrow noses are not due to different "race" mixes but are part of the built-in physical diversity and variation of African peoples. Narrow noses appear in the oldest African populations for example, in Kenya's Gamble Cave complex. East Africans like Somalians or Kenyans do not need any outside race "mix" or migration to make them look the way they do.
QUOTE(s): ".. all their features can be found in several living populations of East Africa, like the Tutsi of Rwanda and Burundi, who are very dark skinned and differ greatly from Europeans in a number of body proportions.. There is every reason to believe that they are ancestral to the living 'Elongated East Africans'. Neither of these populations, fossil and modern, should be considered to be closely related to the populations of Europe and western Asia.. In skin colour, the Tutsi are darker than the Hutu, in the reverse direction to that leading to the caucasoids. Lip thickness provides a similar case: on an average the lips of the Tutsi are thicker than those of the Hutu." [Jean Hiernaux, The People of Africa (1975), pgs 42-43, 62-63)
"In sub-Saharan Africa, many anthropological characters show a wide range of population means or frequencies. In some of them, the whole world range is covered in the sub-continent. Here live the shortest and the tallest human populations, the one with the highest and the one with the lowest nose, the one with the thickest and the one with the thinnest lips in the world. In this area, the range of the average nose widths covers 92 per cent of the world range: only a narrow range of extremely low means are absent from the African record. Means for head diameters cover about 80 per cent of the world range; 60 per cent is the corresponding value for a variable once cherished by physical anthropologists, the cephalic index, or ratio of the head width to head length expressed as a percentage....." - Jean Hiernaux, "The People of Africa" 1975 p.53, 54
"Prehistoric human crania from Bromhead's Site, Willey's Kopje, Makalia Burial Site, Nakuru, and other localities in the Eastern Rift Valley of Kenya are reassessed using measurements and a multivariate statistical approach. Materials available for comparison include series of Bushman and Hottentot crania. South and East African Negroes, and Egyptians. Up to 34 cranial measurements taken on these series are utilized to construct three multiple discriminant frameworks, each of which can assign modern individuals to a correct group with considerable accuracy. When the prehistoric crania are classified with the help of these discriminants, results indicate that several of the skulls are best grouped with modern Negroes. This is especially clear in the case of individuals from Bromhead's Site, Willey's Kopje, and Nakuru, and the evidence hardly suggests post-Pleistocene domination of the Rift and surrounding territory by "Mediterranean" Caucasoids, as has been claimed. Recent linguistic and archaeological findings are also reviewed, and these seem to support application of the term Nilotic Negro to the early Rift populations." (Rightmire GP. New studies of post-Pleistocene human skeletal remains from the Rift Valley, Kenya. Am J Phys Anthropol. 1975 May;42(3):351-69. )
"....inhabitants of East Africa right on the equator have appreciably longer, narrower, and higher noses than people in the Congo at the same latitude. A former generation of anthropologists used to explain this paradox by invoking an invasion by an itinerant "white" population from the Mediterranean area, although this solution raised more problems than it solved since the East Africans in question include some of the blackest people in the world with characteristically wooly hair and a body build unique among the world's populations for its extreme linearity and height.... The relatively long noses of East Africa become explicable then when one realizes that much of the area is extremely dry for parts of the year." (C. Loring Brace, "Nonracial Approach Towards Human Diversity," cited in The Concept of Race, Edited by Ashley Montagu, The Free Press, 1980, pp. 135-136, 138)
"The .... excavations at Gogoshiis Qabe (Somalia) uncovered eleven virtually complete and articulated primary burials...Closest morphological affinities are with early Holocene skeletons from Lake Turkana, Kenya...and Lake Besaka, Ethiopia.." (S. Brandt, (1986) The Upper Pleistocene and early Holocene prehistory of the Horn of Africa. Journal African Archaeological Review. Volume 4, Number 1, Pages 41-82 )
"The role of tall, linearly built populations in eastern Africa's prehistory has always been debated. Traditionally, they are viewed as late migrants into the area. But as there is better palaeoanthropological and linguistic documentation for the earlier presence of these populations than for any other group in eastern Africa, it is far more likely that they are indigenous eastern Africans. ... prehistoric linear populations show resemblances to both Upper Pleistocene eastern African fossils and present-day, non-Bantu-speaking groups in eastern Africa, with minor differences stemming from changes in overall robusticity of the dentition and skeleton. This suggests a longstanding tradition of linear populations in eastern Africa, contributing to the indigenous development of cultural and biological diversity from the Pleistocene up to the present." (L . A . SCHEPARTZ, "Who were the later Pleistocene eastern Africans?" The African Archaeological Review, 6 (1988), pp. 57- 72)
Recent study shows ancient Egyptians physically more like tropically adapted Black Americans than White Americans, confirming older studies that show today's Egyptians in general are closer to US blacks than Northern Europeans, and Southern Europeans as well.
QUOTE(s): "We also compare Egyptian body proportions to those of modern American Blacks and Whites... Long bone stature regression equations were then derived for each sex. Our results confirm that, although ancient Egyptians are closer in body proportion to modern American Blacks than they are to American Whites, proportions in Blacks and Egyptians are not identical... Intralimb indices are not significantly different between Egyptians and American Blacks. ..brachial indices are definitely more 'African'... There is no evidence for significant variation in proportions among temporal or social groupings; thus, the new formulae may be broadly applicable to ancient Egyptian remains." ("Stature estimation in ancient Egyptians: A new technique based on anatomical reconstruction of stature." Michelle H. Raxter, Christopher B. Ruff, Ayman Azab, Moushira Erfan, Muhammad Soliman, Aly El-Sawaf, (Am J Phys Anthropol. 2008, Jun;136(2):147-55
Africa is the most genetically diverse region in the world with the original man being from East Africa according to conservative scholars:
"Africa contains tremendous cultural, linguistic and genetic diversity, and has more than 2,000 distinct ethnic groups and languages.. Studies using mitochondrial (mt)DNA and nuclear DNA markers consistently indicate that Africa is the most genetically diverse region of the world." (Tishkoff SA, Williams SM., Genetic analysis of African populations: human evolution and complex disease. Nature Reviews Genetics. 2002 Aug (8):611-21.)
" In other words, all non-Africans carry M168. Of course, Africans carrying the M168 mutation today are the descendants of the African subpopulation from which the migrants originated.... Thus, the Australian/Eurasian Adam (the ancestor of all non-Africans) was an East African Man." (Linda Stone, Paul F. Lurquin, L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Genes, Culture, and Human Evolution: A Synthesis, Wiley-Blackwell: 2006, pg 108)
The Natufians, early inhabitants of the Sinai - Israel- Palestine area, and reputed pioneers of several Neolithic agricultural and technological developments, appear to have had "Negroid" affinities. Important Natufian sites include Mt. Carmel, Jericho and several others.
"Against this background of disease, movement and pedomorphic reduction of body size one can identify Negroid (Ethiopic or Bushmanoid?) traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers, probably from Nubia via the unknown predecesors of the Badarians and Tasians....". (Biological Relations of Egyptians and Eastern Mediterranean Populations during pre-Dynastic and Dynastic Times. J. Lawrence Angel. Journal of Human Evolutiom. 1972:1, 1, Pg 307)
"The Mushabians moved into Sinai from the Nile Delta, bringing North African lithic chipping tecniques." ("Pleistocene connections between Africa and Southwest Asia: an archaeological perspective. O. Bar-Yosef. African Archaeological Review. 5 (1987) Pg 29)
"It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa... Interestingly enough, however, the small Natufian sample falls between the Niger-Congo group and the other samples used... This placement suggests that there may have been a Sub-Saharan African element in the make-up of the Natufians (the putative ancestors of the subsequent Neolithic.." (C.L Brace, et. al. 2005. The Questionable contribution of the Neolithic...)
Early inhabitants of the general Natufian Israel area show limb proportions suited to tropical peoples- similar to sub-Saharan's homeland
"However, the real revelation came when Erik [Trinkhaus] inserted his data on the Cro-Magnons of Europe and the Skhul-Qafzeh skeletons from Israel into the equations. In this case, he got a figure of 85 percent for the shinbone-thighbone ratio. Not only were they unlike the Neanderthals, but these people actually fell at the other extreme in their readings on the limb thermometer. The predicted average temperature of origin for folk with an 85% shin-thigh fraction, indicating much longer extremities relative to trunk length - was about 20 degrees higher than the Neanderthals', suggesting a subtropical- if not tropical- homeland!" (African Exodus By Christopher Stringer, Robin McKie, McMillan: pg 79-83)
The 1993 'Clines and Clusters' study by C.L. Brace, et. al. has been used to minmize or downplay the realtionship between Egypt and its African neighbors. For example it:
--Created an "African" or "sub-Saharan" group, but excluded the Maghreb (including parts of the Sahara and Sahel), the Sudan and the Horn area (Ethiopia and Somalia) even though these latter two are BELOW the Sahara, and thus "sub-Saharan".
--Excluded the Badari, and Naqada I and II, key Egyptian groups, thus obscuring the Sudanic/Saharan character of numerous early samples, noted in several earlier analyses. Ignored the formative range of the Saharans on Egypt, from the megaliths and cattle cults of the Nabta Playa to early mummification practices was ignored.
--Excluded the Nubian population of the Badari and early Naqada period, including the rich remains of the well documented Qustul culture, near the present Sudanese-Egyptian border, again obscuring the close relationship between the two peoples.
--Created a vague "Bronze Age" grouping of Nubians, and a "modern" group of medieval samples, an era long after the dynasties and when Nubia had experienced more gene flow of that and the later Arab incursions, beginning in the 700s. Sampling thus ignored the early Badari/Naqada Nubians, jumped the 25th Dynasty era, and shifted to the medieval era in the age range of the Arab conquests. Used Somalian samples that were modern, and thus within the range of recent gene flow (such as the Arab era), particularly on the coast.
--The result was a "comparison" finding that the ancient Egyptians had no relationship "at all" to other "sub-Saharan" peoples and were relatively distant from the Nubians and Somalians. peoples. This finding has been undermined by the subsequent research of several scholars, including limb proportion studies.
QUOTE(s):
"However, Brace et al. (1993) find that a series of upper Egyptian/Nubian epipalaeolithic crania affiliate by cluster analysis with groups they designate "sub-Saharan African" or just simply "African" (from which they incorrectly exclude the Maghreb, Sudan, and the Horn of Africa), whereas post-Badarian southern predynastic and a late dynastic northern series (called "E" or Gizeh) cluster together, and secondarily with Europeans. In the primary cluster with the Egyptian groups are also remains representing populations from the ancient Sudan and recent Somalia. Brace et al. (1993) seemingly interpret these results as indicating a population relationship from Scandinavia to the Horn of Africa, although the mechanism for this is not clearly stated; they also state that the Egyptians had no relationship with sub-Saharan Africans, a group that they nearly treat (incorrectly) as monolithic, although sometimes seemingly including Somalia, which directly undermines aspects of their claims. Sub-Saharan Africa does not define/delimit authentic Africanity." (S.O.Y. Keita. "Early Nile Valley Farmers from El-Badari: Aboriginals or "European" Agro-Nostratic Immigrants? Craniometric Affinities Considered With Other Data". Journal of Black Studies, Vol. 36 No. 2, pp. 191-208 (2005)
Brace carefully excluded the Badari- a key native pre-dynastic group that led into the dynasties, and suggested possible European immigration to ancient Egypt. Keita put this to the test and found that the excluded group matched up more closely with Africans than Europeans.
"An examination of the distance hierarchies reveals the Badarian series to be more similar to the Teita in both analyses and always more similar to all of the African series than to the Norse and Berg groups (see Tables 3A & 3B and Figure 2). Essentially equal similarity is found with the Zalavar and Dogon series in the 11-variable analysis and with these and the Bushman in the one using 15 variables. The Badarian series clusters with the tropical African groups no matter which algorithm is employed (see Figures 3 and 4).. In none of them did the Badarian sample affiliate with the European series."(S.O.Y. Keita. Early Nile Valley Farmers from El-Badari: Aboriginals or "European" Agro-Nostratic Immigrants? Craniometric Affinities Considered With Other Data. Journal of Black Studies, Vol. 36 No. 2, pp. 191-208 (2005)
More on the biased and skewed 'true negro' model
"Another example of the use of a socially constructed typological paradigm is in studies of the Nile Valley populations in which the concept of a biological African is restricted to those with a particular craniometric pattern (called in the past the 'True Negro' though no 'True White' was ever defined). Early Nubians, Egyptians, and even Somalians are viewed essentially as non-Africans, when in fact numerous lines of evidence and an evolutionary model make them a part of African biocultural/biogeographical history. The diversity of 'authentic' Africans is a reality. This diversity prevents biogeographical/biohistorical Africans from clustering into a single unit, no matter the kind of data." (The Persistence of Racial Thinking and the Myth of Racial Divergence, S. O. Y. Keita, Rick A. Kittles, American Anthropologist, New Series, Vol. 99, No. 3 (Sep., 1997), pp. 534-544)
"..presents all tropical Africans with narrower noses and faces as being related to or descended from external, ultimately non-African peoples. However, narrow-faced, narrow-nosed populations have long been resident in Saharo-tropical Africa... and their origin need not be sought elsewhere. These traits are also indigenous. The variability in tropical Africa is expectedly naturally high. Given their longstanding presence, narrow noses and faces cannot be deemed `non-African."(S.O.Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993), page 134 )
"Another example of the use of a socially constructed typological paradigm is in studies of the Nile Valley populations in which the concept of a biological African is restricted to those with a particular craniometric pattern (called in the past the 'True African' though no 'True White' was ever defined). Early Nubians, Egyptians, and even Somalians are viewed essentially as non-Africans, when in fact numerous lines of evidence and an evolutionary model make them a part of African biocultural/biogeographical history. The diversity of 'authentic' Africans is a reality. This diversity prevents biogeographical/biohistorical Africans from clustering into a single unit, no matter the kind of data." ---Keita and Kittles. "The Persistence of Racial Thinking and the Myth of Racial Divergence." American Anthropologist 99, no. 3 (September 1997): 534-544
Hair and the 'true negro' "Strouhal (1971) microscopically examined some hair which had been preserved on a Badarian skull. The analysis was interpreted as suggesting a stereotypical tropical African-European hybrid (mulatto). However, this hair is grossly no different from that of Fulani, some Kanuri, or Somali and does not require a gene flow explanation any more than curly hair in Greece necessarily does. Extremely "woolly" hair is not the only kind native to tropical Africa." --(S. O. Y. Keita. (1993). "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54)
Sampling bias and the true negro. In some Nile Valley research sampling bias persists such as drawing samples from the far north of Egypt, boscuring the region's genetic complexity. The stereotypical "true negro" type is still used to artifically separate related peoples and obscure a fuller, more accurate picture of African genetic diversity. Sampling bias appears both in DNA studies (noted by Keita) and in cranial studies (noted by Egyptologist Barry Kemp).
QUOTE(s):
Keita on DNA studies drawing samples from the far north, an area with more foreign settlement and gene flow
"However, in some of the studies, only individuals from northern Egypt are sampled, and this could theoretically give a false impression of Egyptian variability (contrast Lucotte and Mercier 2003a with Manni et al. 2002), because this region has received more foreign settlers (and is nearer the Near East). Possible sample bias should be integrated into the discussion of results." (S.O.Y. Keita, A.J. Boyce, "Interpreting Geographical Patterns of Y Chromosome Variation1," History in Africa 32 (2005) 221-246 )
Egyptologist Barry Kemp on the worldwide CRANID database that used northern samples near the Mediterranean as "representative" of the ancient Egyptians, and classifying them in a "European" direction, while excluding key historic sites further south..
"If, on the other hand, CRANID had used one of the Elephantine populations of the same period, the geographic association would be much more with the African groups to the south. It is dangerous to take one set of skeletons and use them to characterize the population of the whole of Egypt." (Barry Kemp, Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation, Routledge: 2005, p. 55)
One of the oldest remains from Upper Egypt, shows strong sub-Saharan affinities, and early northern Egypt also shows sub-Saharan affinities through cultural traits- the 'Nubian complex' of technology and production.
"The morphometric affinities of the 33,000 year old skeleton from Nazlet Khater, Upper Egypt are examined using multivariate statistical procedures.. The results indicate a strong association between some of the sub-Saharan Middle Stone Age (MSA) specimens, and the Nazlet Khater mandible. Furthermore, the results suggest that variability between African populations during the Neolithic and Protohistoric periods was more pronounced than the range of variability observed among recent African and Levantine populations." (PINHASI Ron, SEMAL Patrick (2000). The position of the Nazlet Khater specimen among prehistoric and modern African and Levantine populations. Journal of human evolution. 2000, vol. 39, no3, pp. 269-288 )
"..Middle Paleolithic and the transition to the Upper Paleolithic in the Lower Nile Valley are described... the Middle Paleolithic or, more appropriately, Middle Stone Age of this region starts with the arrival of new populations from sub-Saharan Africa, as evidenced by the nature of the Early to Middle Stone Age transition in stratified sites. Throughout the late Middle Pleistocene technological change occurs leading to the establishment of the Nubian Complex by the onset of the Upper Pleistocene." (Van Peer, Philip. Did middle stone age moderns of sub-Saharan African descent trigger an upper paleolithic revolution in the lower nile valley? Anthropologie. vol. 42, no3, pp. 215-225)
Dental studies provide evidence that the ancient Egyptian population maintained a high degree of continuity into the early, mid and late Dynastic periods. A key ancient group, the Badari, found to link to tropical African metrics, was excluded by such studies as Brace (1993) but dental research shows they link well with later pre and Dynastic populations. J. Irish's 2006 dental study examined the ancient Badarian people excluded by Brace and found that they were a "good representative of what the common ancestor to all later predynastic and dynastic Egyptian peoples would be like." His dental results show that:
QUOTE:
"Despite the difference, Gebel Ramlah [the Western Desert- Saharan region] is closest to predynastic and early dynastic samples from Abydos, Hierakonpolis, and Badari.."
the Badarians were a "good representative of what the common ancestor to all later predynastic and dynastic Egyptian peoples would be like"
"A comparison of Badari to the Naqada and Hierakonpolis samples .. contradicts the idea of a foreign origin for the Naqada (Petrie, 1939; Baumgartel, 1970)"
Evidence in favor of continuity is also demonstrated by comparison of individual samples. "Naqada and especially Hierakonpolis share close affinities with First-Second Dynasty Abydos.. These findings do not support the concept of a foreign dynastic ''race''"
"Thus, despite increasing foreign influence after the Second Intermediate Period, not only did Egyptian culture remain intact (Lloyd, 2000a), but the people themselves, as represented by the dental samples, appear biologically constant as well."
(Joel D. Irish (2006). Who Were the Ancient Egyptians? Dental Affinities Among Neolithic Through Postdynastic Peoples. Am J Phys Anthropol. 2006 Apr;129(4):529-43.)
Africans have the highest dental diversity "Previous research by the first author revealed that, relative to other modern peoples, sub-Saharan Africans exhibit the highest frequencies of ancestral (or plesiomorphic) dental traits... The fact that sub-Saharan Africans express these apparently plesiomorphic characters, along with additional information on their affinity to other modern populations, evident intra-population heterogeneity, and a world-wide dental cline emanating from the sub-continent, provides further evidence that is consistent with an African origin model." (Irish JD, Guatelli-Steinberg D.(2003) Ancient teeth and modern human origins: an expanded comparison of African Plio-Pleistocene and recent world dental samples. Hum Evol. 2003 Aug;45(2):113-44. )
Dental studies confirm the data yielded by skeletal and cranial studies. The inhabitants of ancient Egypt, particularly in the formative era on into the early Dynastic ages, cluster more closely with African populations that with Europeans or Middle Easterners. These Nile Valley populations are continuous and of local origin, with no major contemporaneous migration or replacement events.
[quotes:]
"The question of the genetic origins of ancient Egyptians, particularly those during the Dynastic period, is relevant to the current study. Modern interpretations of Egyptian state formation propose an indigenous origin of the Dynastic civilization (Hassan, 1988). Early Egyptologists considered Upper and Lower Egyptians to be genetically distinct populations, and viewed the Dynastic period as characterized by a conquest of Upper Egypt by the Lower Egyptians. More recent interpretations contend that Egyptians from the south actually expanded into the northern regions during the Dynastic state unification (Hassan, 1988; Savage, 2001), and that the Predynastic populations of Upper and Lower Egypt are morphologically distinct from one another, but not sufficiently distinct to consider either non-indigenous (Zakrzewski, 2007). The Predynastic populations studied here, from Naqada and Badari, are both Upper Egyptian samples, while the Dynastic Egyptian sample (Tarkhan) is from Lower Egypt. The Dynastic Nubian sample is from Upper Nubia (Kerma). Previous analyses of cranial variation found the Badari and Early Predynastic Egyptians to be more similar to other African groups than to Mediterranean or European populations (Keita, 1990; Zakrzewski, 2002). In addition, the Badarians have been described as near the centroid of cranial and dental variation among Predynastic and Dynastic populations studied (Irish, 2006; Zakrzewski, 2007). This suggests that, at least through the Early Dynastic period, the inhabitants of the Nile valley were a continuous population of local origin, and no major migration or replacement events occurred during this time.
Studies of cranial morphology also support the use of a Nubian (Kerma) population for a comparison of the Dynastic period, as this group is likely to be more closely genetically related to the early Nile valley inhabitants than would be the Late Dynastic Egyptians, who likely experienced significant mixing with other Mediterranean populations (Zakrzewski, 2002). A craniometric study found the Naqada and Kerma populations to be morphologically similar (Keita, 1990). Given these and other prior studies suggesting continuity (Berry et al., 1967; Berry and Berry, 1972), and the lack of archaeological evidence of major migration or population replacement during the Neolithic transition in the Nile valley, we may cautiously interpret the dental health changes over time as primarily due to ecological, subsistence, and demographic changes experienced throughout the Nile valley region."
-- AP Starling, JT Stock. (2007). Dental Indicators of Health and Stress in Early Egyptian and Nubian Agriculturalists: A Difficult Transition and Gradual Recovery. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 134:520–528
Recent dental analyses show that reductions in tooth wear among ancient Nile Valley populations due to routine evolutionary processes and better food preparation techniques- contradicting claims of sweeping European or Middle Eastern influxes into the Nile Valley.
quote: "The study of ancient Egyptian skeletons from Amarna, Egypt reveals extensive tooth wear but very little dental crowding, unlike in modern Americans. In the early 20th century, Percy Raymond Begg focused his research on extreme tooth wear coincident with traditional diets to justify teeth removal during orthodontic treatment. Anthropologists studying skeletons that were excavated along the Nile Valley in Egypt and the Sudan have demonstrated reductions in tooth size and changes in the face, including decreased robustness associated with the development of agriculture, but without any increase in the frequency of dental crowding and malocclusion. For thousands of years, facial and dental reduction stayed in step, more or less. These analyses suggest it was not the reduction in tooth wear that increased crowding and malocclusion, but rather the tremendous reduction in the forces of mastication, which produced this extreme tooth wear and the subsequent reduced jaw involvement. Thus, as modern food preparation techniques spread throughout the world during the 19th century, so did dental crowding. This research provides support for the development of orthodontic therapies that increase jaw dimensions rather than the use of tooth removal to relieve crowding."
--Rose JC, Roblee RD. (2009) Origins of dental crowding and malocclusions: an anthropological perspective. Compend Contin Educ Dent. 2009 Jun;30(5):292-300.
Older dental studies contradicting claims of mass European or Middle Easter influxes, confirmed by modern cranial analysis.
"However, as is well known and accepted, rapid evolution can occur. Also, rapid change in northeast Africa might be specifically anticipated because of the possibilities for punctuated microevolution (secondary to severe micro-selection and drift) in the early Holocene Sahara, because of the isolated communities and cyclical climatic changes there, and their possible subsequent human effects. The earliest southern predynastic culture, Badari, owes key elements to post-desiccation Saharan and also perhaps "Nubian" immigration (Hassan 1988). Biologically these people were essentially the same (see above and discussion; Keita 1990). It is also possible that the dental traits could have been introduced from an external source, and increased in frequency primarily because of natural selection, either for the trait or for a growth pattern requiring less energy. There is no evidence for sudden or gradual mass migration of Europeans or Near Easterners into the valley, as the term "replacement" would imply. There is limb ratio and craniofacial morphological and metric continuity in Upper Egypt-Nubia in a broad sense from the late paleolithic through dynastic periods.." -- S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54.
"Overall, when the Egyptian crania are evaluated in a Near Eastern (Lachish) versus African (Kerma, Jebel Moya, Ashanti) context) the affinity is with the Africans. The Sudan and Palestine are the most appropriate comparative regions which would have 'donated' people, along with the Sahara and Maghreb. Archaeology validates looking to these regions for population flow (see Hassan 1988)... Egyptian groups showed less overall affinity to Palestinian and Byzantine remains than to other African series, especially Sudanese."
"An examination of the distance hierarchies reveals the Badarian series to be more similar to the Teita in both analyses and always more similar to all of the African series than to the Norse and Berg groups (see Tables 3A & 3B and Figure 2). Essentially equal similarity is found with the Zalavar and Dogon series in the 11-variable analysis and with these and the Bushman in the one using 15 variables. The Badarian series clusters with the tropical African groups no matter which algorithm is employed (see Figures 3 and 4).. In none of them did the Badarian sample affiliate with the European series." --(S.O.Y. Keita. Early Nile Valley Farmers from El-Badari: Aboriginals or "European" Agro-Nostratic Immigrants? Craniometric Affinities Considered With Other Data. Journal of Black Studies, Vol. 36 No. 2, pp. 191-208 (2005) S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54[/i]
Ancient Egyptian civilization was indigenous with continuity among its peoples, not an influx of Middle Easterners, Europeans or other outsiders like Arabs until relatively late in history
QUOTE(s): "Some have argued that various early Egyptians like the Badarians probably migrated northward from Nubia, while others see a wide-ranging movement of peoples across the breadth of the Sahara before the onset of desiccation. Whatever may be the origins of any particular people or civilization, however, it seems reasonably certain that the predynastic communities of the Nile valley were essentially indigenous in culture, drawing little inspiration from sources outside the continent during the several centuries directly preceding the onset of historical times..." (Robert July, Pre-Colonial Africa, 1975, p. 60-61)
"overall population continuity over the Predynastic and early Dynastic, and high levels of genetic heterogeneity, thereby suggesting that state formation occurred as a mainly indigenous process." (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2007). "Population continuity or population change: Formation of the ancient Egyptian state". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 132 (4): 501-509)
"the peoples of the steppes and grasslands to the immediate south of Egypt domesticated cattle, as early as 9000 to 8000 B.C. They included peoples from the Afroasiastic linguistic group and the second major African language family, Nilo-Saharan (Wendorf, Schild, Close 1984; Wendorf, et al. 1982). Thus the earliest domestic cattle may have come to Egypt from these southern neighbors, circa 6000 B.C., and not from the Middle East.[148] Pottery, another significant advance in material cultural may also have followed this pattern, initiatied "as early as 9000 B.C. by the Nilo-Saharans and Afrasians who lived to the south of Egypt. Soon thereafter, pots spread to Egyptian sites, almost 2,000 years before the first pottery was made in the Middle East." (Christopher Ehret, "Ancient Egyptian as an African Language, Egypt as an African Culture," in Egypt in Africa, Theodore Celenko (ed), Indiana University Press, 1996, pp. 25-27)
X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies show some to be linked physically to Nubian types, and some documented royal officials are clearly "Negroid' like Pepi-seneb, an eminent scribe c. 2745 BC. Some royal New Kingdom mummies also show melanin frequencies consistent with Negroid origin.
Harris and Wente note the prevalence of dental prognathism among Nubians. Often this is combined with malocclusion. Similar incidence can be found in other African peoples. For example, one study found that a sample taken from the Kenya showed 61.3% of Maasai had diastema; 84% of Kikuyu had overbite and 99% had overjet; and 24% of Kalenjin had anterior open bite. (J. Hassanali, GP Pokhariyal, "Anterior tooth relations in Kenyan Africans, Archives of Oral Biology 38 [Apr 1993] 337-42). Although these dental traits can often be acquired through habits like thumb-sucking, as noted by Harris and Wente, the high frequency in the royal mummies indicates a genetic origin as found in Africans.
quotes: "In terms of head shape, the XVIV and XX dynasties look more like the early Nubian skulls from the mesolithic with low vaults and sloping, curved foreheads.The XVII and XVIII dynasty skulls are shaped more like modern Nubians with globular skulls and high vaults." (An X-ray atlas of the royal mummies. Edited by J.E. Harris and E.F. Wente. (The University of Chicago Press, Chicago, 1980.) Review: Michael R. Zimmerman, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, Volume 56, Issue 2 , (1981) Pages 207 - 208)
"While the Upper Nile Egyptians show phenotypic features that occur in higher frequencies in the Sudan and southward into East Africa (namely, facial prognathism, chamaerrhiny, and paedomorphic cranial architecture with specific modifications of the nasal aperature), these so-called Negroid features are not universal in the region of Thebes, Karnak, and Luxor." (Kennedy, Kenneth A.R., T. Plummer, J. Chinment, "Identification of the Eminent Dead: Pepi, A Scribe of Egypt," In Katherine J. Reichs (ed.), Forensic Osteology, 1986.)
X-Ray analysis of some royal mummies reveal strong Nubian affinities, also confirming Egyptologist Frank Yurco's findings as to such affinities. "The late XVII Dynasty and XVIII Dynasty royal mummies display the strongest Nubian affinities. In terms of maxillary protrusion as measured by SNA, the mean value for these Pharaohs is 84.21 comparable to that of African Americans. .. They exceed the latter in terms of ANB and SN-M Plane, but are closer to Caucasians in regards to SNB. However, the ability of SNA and SNB to predict maxillary and mandibular protrusion respectively has been questioned. Some studies suggest that measuring prognathism from the Frankfort horizontal would produce more reliable results (See RM Ricketts, RJ Schulhof, L Bagha. Orientation-sella-nasion or Frankfort horizontal. Am J Orthod 1976 Jun;69(6):648-654; also JW Moore. Variation of the sella-nasion plane and its effect on SNA and SNB. J Oral Surg. 1976 Jan; 34(1): 24-26).
In regards to head shape, the late XVII and XVIII dynasty mummies are very close to Nubian samples intermediate between the Mesolithic and Christian periods. The zygomatic arches are almost always vertical or forward and not receding."
--James Harris & Edward Wente, X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980)
2009 study finds the Nubians were ethnically the closest population to the ancient Egyptians not Europeans or Middle Easterners, confirming Egyptologist Frank Yurco's data from the 1980s and 1990s. Quotes: "The Mahalanobis D2 analysis uncovered close affinities between Nubians and Egyptians. Table 3 lists the Mahalanobis D2 distance matrix... In some cases, the statistics reveal that the Egyptian samples were more similar to Nubian samples than to other Egyptian samples (e.g. Gizeh and Hesa/Biga) and vice versa (e.g. Badari and Kerma, Naqada and Christian). These relationships are further depicted in the PCO plot (Fig. 2).
The clustering of the Nubian and Egyptian samples together supports this paper's hypothesis and demonstrates that there may be a close relationship between the two populations. This relationship is consistent with Berry and Berry (1972), among others, who noted a similarity between Nubians and Egyptians.
Both mtDNA (Krings et al., 1999) and Y-Chromosome data (Hassan et al., 2008; Keita, 2005; Lucotte and Mercier, 2003) indicate that migrations, usually bidirectional, occurred along the Nile. Thus, the osteological material used in this analysis also supports the DNA evidence.
On this basis, many have postulated that the Badarians are relatives to South African populations (Morant, 1935 G. Morant, A study of predynastic Egyptian skulls from Badari based on measurements taken by Miss BN Stoessiger and Professor DE Derry, Biometrika 27 (1935), pp. 293–309.Morant, 1935; Mukherjee et al., 1955; Irish and Konigsberg, 2007). The archaeological evidence points to this relationship as well. (Hassan, 1986) and (Hassan, 1988) noted similarities between Badarian pottery and the Neolithic Khartoum type, indicating an archaeological affinity among Badarians and Africans from more southern regions. Furthermore, like the Badarians, Naqada has also been classified with other African groups, namely the Teita (Crichton, 1996; Keita, 1990).
Nutter (1958) noted affinities between the Badarian and Naqada samples, a feature that Strouhal (1971) attributed to their skulls possessing “Negroid” traits. Keita (1992), using craniometrics, discovered that the Badarian series is distinctly different from the later Egyptian series, a conclusion that is mostly confirmed here. In the current analysis, the Badari sample more closely clusters with the Naqada sample and the Kerma sample. However, it also groups with the later pooled sample from Dynasties XVIII–XXV.
The reoccurring notation of Kerma affinities with Egyptian groups is not entirely surprising. Kerma was an integral part of the trade between Egypt and Nubia.
However, the archaeological evidence actually showed slow change in form over time (Adams, 1977) and the biological evidence demonstrated a similar trend in the skeletal data (e.g. Godde, in press; Van Gerven et al., 1977). These conclusions negate the possibility of invasion or migration causing the shifts in time periods. The results in this study are consistent with prior work; the Meroites and X-Group cluster with the remaining Nubian population and are not differentiated.
Gene flow may account for the homogeneity across these Nubian and Egyptian groups and is consistent with the biological diffusion precept. Small geographic distances between groups allow for the exchange of genes. The similarities uncovered by this study may be explained by another force, adaptation.. resemblance may be indicative of a common adaptation to a similar geographic location, rather than gene flow Egypt and Nubia have similar terrain and climate. Because of the similarity between and the overlapping of the two territories that would require similar adaptations to the environment, common adaptation cannot be discounted.
Gene flow appears likely between the Egyptians and Nubians, although common adaptations to a similar environment may have also been a factor in their cranial similarities. This study does not rule out the possibility that in situ biological evolution occurred at other times not represented by the samples in this analysis. "
-- Godde K. (2009) An Examination of Nubian and Egyptian biological distances: Support for biological diffusion or in situ development? Homo. 2009;60(5):389-404.
German Institute for Archaeology -excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. In several of the noble specimens: "The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin." (Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues", Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13) Nubians are no "prequisite" for dark skin in ancient Egypt.
Nubians were ethnically the closest people to the Egyptians. Conflict between the two were typical clashes between kingdoms without the simplistic "racial" models drawn by some 20th century writers. Quote 1: "The ancient Egyptians referred to a region, located south of the third cataract the Nile River, in which Nubians dwelt as Kush.. Within such context, this phrase is not a racial slur. Throughout the history of ancient Egypt there were numerous, well documented instances that celebrate Nubian-Egyptian marriages. A study of these documents, particularly those dated to both the Egyptian New Kingdom (after 1550 B.C.E.) and to Dynasty XXV and early Dynasty XXVI (about 720-640 BCE), reveals that neither spouse nor any of the children of such unions suffered discrimination at the hands of the ancient Egyptians. Indeed such marriages were never an obstacle to social, economic, or political status, provided the individuals concerned conformed to generally accepted Egyptian social standards. Furthermore, at times, certain Nubian practices, such as tattooing for women, and the unisex fashion of wearing earrings, were wholeheartedly embraced by the ancient Egyptians." (Bianchi, 2004: p. 4)
'It is an extremely difficult task to attempt to describe the Nubians during the course of Egypt's New Kingdom, because their presence appears to have virtually evaporated from the archaeological record.. The result has been described as a wholesale Nubian assimilation into Egyptian society. This assimilation was so complete that it masked all Nubian ethnic identities insofar as archaeological remains are concerned beneath the impenetrable veneer of Egypt's material; culture.. In the Kushite Period, when Nubians ruled as Pharaohs in their own right, the material culture of Dynasty XXV (about 750-655 B.C.E.) was decidedly Egyptian in character.. Nubia's entire landscape up to the region of the Third Cataract was dotted with temples indistinguishable in style and decoration from contemporary temples erected in Egypt. The same observation obtains for the smaller number of typically Egyptian tombs in which these elite Nubian princes were interred. (Bianchi, 2004, p. 99-100)
- Robert Bianchi ( 2004). Daily Life of the Nubians. Greenwood Publishing Group
Yet more mainstream research shows the ancient Egyptians did not practice the racism of today's whites, and that Nubians and Egyptians mingled and intermarried freely despite OFFICIAL state dogma regarding foreign "enemies."
"..the Egyptians did not engage in the kind of racial prejudice seen in modern times. Modern racism largely revolves around differences in skin color. In particular, dark skin color was (and with some groups unfortunately still is) a sign of inferiority, regardless of individual achievement and sophistication. Miscegenation, or racial intermarriage, was considered immoral. At its worst, skin color distinguished between slaves and slaves and free people in the American South. In contrast, the ancient Egyptians, and indeed ancient Mediterranean peoples in general, did not make skin color a definitive criterion for racial discrimination (Snowden 1983). Slavery was not connected to race or even class. Royce (1982) notes that ethnic definitions stressing phenotype can inhibit the ability of individuals to cross ethnic boundaries, but the separation of language and culture (costume, hair style, etc) from biological phenotype (skin color, facial features), in social practice if not ideology, meant that foreigners could cross ethnic boundaries.
For example, Nubians like solider and royal confidant Mahirper achieved high position in Egyptian society as long as they assimilated to Egyptian cultural norms. Mahirper was raised at the Egyptian court with the future Pharaoh, and so may have been son of a Nubian prince. He held the important military title 'Fanbearer to the Right of the King." he was buried in the valley of the Kings, a privilege reserved only for kings and there immediate relatives. the burial itself was quote Lavish, with, among other things, high -quality coffins and expensive jewelry, reflecting Mahirper''s wealth and position.. In his Book of the Dead, he appears in every way Egyptian, except for his skin color and facial features (phenotype), which fit the Nubian stereotype.. In a similar way, Nubian mercenaries who settled in Egypt during the First Intermediate Period (c. 2150-2050 B.C.) were depicted on Egyptian funerary stelae in Egyptian dress with their Egyptian wives, but with Nubian physiognomy... Nubians, Asiatics and other peoples married freely with the Egyptians, and slaves were sometimes adopted into Egyptian families, at least among the elite. Asiatic gods and goddesses even found a place in the Egyptian pantheon (Redford 1992). It was the cultural identity of immigrants to Egypt that mattered to their success in Egyptian society, not their skin color or ancestry. Even when foreigners remained culturally foreign, more prosaic sources allowed that foreigners could act in positive ways and be incorporated into the civilized sphere. the ancient Egyptian construction of ethnic identities this reflects cultural chauvinism more than racism."
--Stuart Tyson Smith. (2003) Wretched Kush: ethnic identities and boundaries in Egypt's Nubian empire. Routledge, pp. 22-24
One of Egypt's greatest dynasties, the 12th, originated from dark-skinned Nubian stock, according to conservative Egyptologist F. Yurco (1989). The 12th Dynasty ruled approximately 1000 years BEFORE the well known "black" 25th Dynasty. Quote 2:
"the XIIth Dynasty (1991-1786 B.C.E.) originated from the Aswan region.4 As expected, strong Nubian features and dark coloring are seen in their sculpture and relief work. This dynasty ranks as among the greatest, whose fame far outlived its actual tenure on the throne. Especially interesting, it was a member of this dynasty- that decreed that no Nehsy (riverine Nubian of the principality of Kush), except such as came for trade or diplomatic reasons, should pass by the Egyptian fortress at the southern end of the Second Nile Cataract. Why would this royal family of Nubian ancestry ban other Nubians from coming into Egyptian territory? Because the Egyptian rulers of Nubian ancestry had become Egyptians culturally; as pharaohs, they exhibited typical Egyptian attitudes and adopted typical Egyptian policies."
- (F. J. Yurco, 'Were the ancient Egyptians black or white?', Biblical Archaeology Review (Vol 15, no. 5, 1989)
"Among the foreigners, the Nubians were closest ethnically to the Egyptians. In the late predynastic period (c. 3700 - 3150 B.C.E.), the Nubians shared the same culture as the Egyptians and even evolved the same pharaonic political structure." - (F. J. Yurco, 'Were the ancient Egyptians black or white?', Biblical Archaeology Review (Vol 15, no. 5, 1989)
Ancient Egyptian religion closer to the religion of African regions than to Mesopotamia, Europe or the Middle East
QUOTE(s): Encyclopedia Britannica 1984 ed. Macropedia Article, Vol 6: "Egyptian Religion" , pg 506-508 "A large number of gods go back to prehistoric times. The images of a cow and star goddess (Hathor), the falcon (Horus), and the human-shaped figures of the fertility god (Min) can be traced back to that period. Some rites, such as the "running of the Apil-bull," the "hoeing of the ground," and other fertility and hunting rites (e.g., the hippopotamus hunt) presumably date from early times.. Connections with the religions in southwest Asia cannot be traced with certainty." "It is doubtful whether Osiris can be regarded as equal to Tammuz or Adonis, or whether Hathor is related to the "Great Mother." There are closer relations with northeast African religions. The numerous animal cults (especially bovine cults and panther gods) and details of ritual dresses (animal tails, masks, grass aprons, etc) probably are of African origin. The kinship in particular shows some African elements, such as the king as the head ritualist (i.e., medicine man), the limitations and renewal of the reign (jubilees, regicide), and the position of the king's mother (a matriarchal element). Some of them can be found among the Ethiopians in Napata and Meroe, others among the Prenilotic tribes (Shilluk)." (Encyclopedia Britannica 1984 ed. Macropedia Article, Vol 6: "Egyptian Religion" , pg 506-508)
Egyptian dynastic civilization based from the 'darker' south (Upper Egypt) not the north (Lower Egypt)
QUOTE(s): "While not attempting to underestimate the contribution that Deltaic political and religious institutions made to those of a united Egypt, many Egyptologists now discount the idea that a united prehistoric kingdom of Lower Egypt ever existed."
"While communities such as Ma'adi appear to have played an important role in entrepots through which goods and ideas form south-west Asia filtered into the Nile Valley in later prehistoric times, the main cultural and political tradition that gave rise to the cultural pattern of Early Dynastic Egypt is to be found not in the north but in the south.": The Cambridge History of Africa: Volume 1, From the Earliest Times to c. 500 BC, (Cambridge University Press: 1982), Edited by J. Desmond Clark pp. 500-509
"..the early cultures of Merimde, the Fayum, Badari Naqada I and II are essentially African and early African social customs and religious beliefs were the root and foundation of the ancient Egyptian way of life." (Source: Shaw, Thurston (1976) Changes in African Archaeology in the Last Forty Years in African Studies since 1945. p. 156-68. London.)
Egyptian state founded from the south, and indigenous in character. Egyptians dominated Palestine in some eras.
"What is truly unique about this state is the integration of rule over an extensive geographic region, in contrast to other contemporaneous Near Easter polities in Nubia, Mesopotamia, Palestine and the Levant. Present evidence suggests that the state which emerged by the First Dynasty had its roots in the Nagada culture of Upper Egypt, where grave types, pottery and artifacts demonstrate an evolution of form from the Predynastic to the First Dynasty, This cannot be demonstrated for the material culture of Lower Egypt, which was eventually displaced by that which originated in Upper Egypt. Hierarchical society with much social and economic differentiation, as symbolized in the Nagada II cemeteries of Upper Egypt, does not seem to have been present, then, in Lower Egypt, a fact which supports an Upper Egyptian origin for the unified state. Thus archaeological evidence cannot support earlier theories that the founders of Egyptian civilization were an invading Dynastic race from the east.."
"Egyptian contact in the 4th millennium B.C. with SW Asia is undeniable, but the effect of this contact on state formation is Egypt is less clear... The unified state which emerged in Egypt in the 3rd millenium B.C. however, was unlike the polities in Mesopotamia, the Levant, northern Syria, or Early Bronze Age Palestine- in sociopolitical organization, material culture, and belief system. There was undoubtedly heightened commercial contact with SW Asia in the 4th millennium B.C., but the Early Dynastic state which emerged in Egypt is unique and religious in character." (Bard, Kathryn A. 1994 The Egyptian Predynastic: A Review of the Evidence. Journal of Field Archaeology 21(3):265-288.)
"From Petrie onwards, it was regularly suggested that despite the evidence of Predynastic cultures, Egyptian civilization of the 1st Dynasty appeared suddenly and must therefore have been introduced by an invading foreign 'race'. Since the 1970s however, excavations at Abydos and Hierakonpolis have clearly demonstrated the indigenous, Upper Egyptian roots of early civilization in Egypt.
Contact between northern Egypt and Palestine was overland, as evidence in northern Sinai demonstrates.. Israeli archealogists suggest that this evidence represents a commercial network established and controlled by the Egyptians as early as EBA Ia, and that this network was a major factor in the rise of the urban settlements found later in Palestine EBA II. Naomi Porat's technological study of ceramics from EBA sites in southern Palestine clearly demonstrates that in EBA Ib strata many of the pottery vessels used for food preparation were probably manufactured by Egyptian potters using Egyptian technology but local Palestinian clays. In EBA Ib strata there are also many storage jars made from Nile silt and marl wares, which must have been imported from Egypt. Not only did the Egyptians establish camps and way stations in northern Sinai, but the ceramic evidence also suggests that they established a highly organized network of settlements in southern Palestine where an Egyptian population was in residence." (Ian Shaw ed. (2003) The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt By Ian Shaw. Oxford University Press, page 40-63)
Posted by One Third African (Member # 3735) on :
Honestly, the discussion over who does and doesn't count as "black" and how "black" is defined became a tired one long ago. We all know that, not only do definitions differ across cultures and countries, but also that people will shift the goal posts whenever it's convenient.
That said, somehow I doubt your typical "WE WUZ WHITEZ N SHIET" Amazigh nationalist would be too pleased if it turned out that, say, the Numidian king Juba II had this pigmentation in life.
Posted by Ty Daniels (Member # 23186) on :
quote:Originally posted by One Third African: Honestly, the discussion over who does and doesn't count as "black" and how "black" is defined became a tired one long ago. We all know that, not only do definitions differ across cultures and countries, but also that people will shift the goal posts whenever it's convenient.
That said, somehow I doubt your typical "WE WUZ WHITEZ N SHIET" Amazigh nationalist would be too pleased if it turned out that, say, the Numidian king Juba II had this pigmentation in life.
Naturally they would, because the "Pigmentation Phobia" is PATHOLOGICAL, it's not based on any form of logical rationality.
Thus the need to fight tooth-and-nail against "The Darkies"
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: here the opinion of a congolese about complexed afro-americans and their afrocentrism :
"As a proud Congolese who is well informed about his heritage, I state with certainty based on anthropological evidence that we are indeed the direct descendants of our Congolese forefathers not Ancient Egyptians. And I’m more certain of my ancestry than you are of your paternity. Many black Americans claim that they are descendants of the Ancient Egyptians because they’re ashamed of their lineage, their kinship and believe that their erudite forebears were nothing other than slaves, which leads them to research Pseudo-Histories just to make them feel better.
Furthermore, I also think it all comes down to inadequate education about our pre-slavery history. Blacks are referred to as “African-American” so Blacks assume that the entire continent is “ours.” Even then, many have such shame in being African that they try to claim other civilizations like Native Americans, Germanics, Slavs, Celts, Mediterraneans and Nords. And that Europeans came from other galaxy as extraterrestrial invaders just 100 years ago.
Yes Afrocentric is toxic, and spreads like wildfire among the Black communities, they act is if they’re gods gift to the world... Ready to judge and belittle anyone who begs to differ from their way of thinking.. I argue back at them here on many comments, but it seems to fall on deaf ears.... They have nothing but loathing in their mind sets, and only they can change. It’s a futile attempt at times."
Big respect to him that's a smart guy and real african
Here’s a response from a intelligent Brother G-checking this dimwitted fool’s crappy answer. Made by a real African! 💪🏿
EXCERPT:
Ben Kakengo Emangongo, What you’ve asserted here is completely incorrect and well thought out. Here is why. First, let’s unwrap some of what you’ve actually asserted here.
“…Many black Americans claim that they are descendants of the Ancient Egyptians because they’re ashamed of their lineage, their kinship and believe that their erudite forebears were nothing other than slaves, which leads them to research Pseudo-Histories just to make them feel better.”
Lol just with one pic I can debunk his "negroid pre-hyksos egypt" ...also using sources made by known afrocentrists who are not supported by any academy today won't help him. lol quoting sheikh anta diop the same guy that said that north africans are white because of vandals and that he found a hieroglyph on a baobab lmao.
It’s interesting that you mentioned Diop, because a number of his claims and theories are supported by contemporary scholarship!
Diop's early condemnation of European bias in his 1954 work Nations Negres et Culture, and in Evolution of the Negro World has been supported by some later scholarship. Diop's view that the scholarship of the 19th century and the first half of the 20th century was based on a racist view of Africans was regarded as controversial when he wrote in the 1950s through to the early 1970s, the field of African scholarship still being influenced by Carleton S. Coon and others. Coon used racial rankings of inferiority and superiority, defined "true Blacks" as only those of cultures south of the Sahara, and grouped some Africans with advanced cultures with Caucasian clusters. Based on Coon's work, the Hamitic Hypothesis held that most advanced progress or cultural development in Africa was due to the invasions of mysterious Caucasoid Hamites. Similarly, the Dynastic Race Theory of Egypt asserted that a mass migration of Caucasoid peoples was needed to create the Egyptian kingships, as slower-witted Negro tribes were incapable. Genetic studies have disproved these notions. A 2004 review of DNA research in African Archaeological Review supports some of Diop's criticisms. It found that some European researchers had earlier tried to make Africans seem a special case, somehow different from the rest of the world's population flow and mix. This seemed to apply in matters both of evolution and gene pool makeup. The reviewers found that some researchers seemed to have shifted their categories and methods to maintain this "special case" outlook.
Diop consistently held that Africans could not be pigeonholed into a rigid type that existed somewhere south of the Sahara, but they varied widely in skin color, facial shape, hair type, height, and a number of additional factors, just like other human populations. In his "Evolution of the Negro World" in Présence Africaine (1964), Diop castigated European scholars who posited a separate evolution of various types of humankind and denied the African origin of homo sapiens.
"But it is only the most gratuitous theory that considers the Dinka, the Nouer and the Masai, among others, to be Caucasoids. What if an African ethnologist were to persist in recognizing as white-only the blond, blue-eyed Scandinavians, and systematically refused membership to the remaining Europeans, and Mediterraneans in particular—the French, Italians, Greek, Spanish, and Portuguese? Just as the inhabitants of Scandinavia and the Mediterranean countries must be considered as two extreme poles of the same anthropological reality, so should the Negroes of East and West Africa be considered as the two extremes in the reality of the Negro world. To say that a Shillouk, a Dinka, or a Nouer is a Caucasoid is for an African as devoid of sense and scientific interest as would be, to a European, an attitude that maintained that a Greek or a Latin were not of the same race"
Critics of Diop cite a 1993 study that found the ancient Egyptians to be more related to North African, Somali, European, Nubian and, more remotely, Indian populations, than to Sub-Saharan Africans. Diop always maintained that Somalians, Nubians, Ethiopians and Egyptians were all part of a related range of African peoples in the Nilotic zone that also included peoples of the Sudan and parts of the Sahara. He said that their cultural, genetic and material links could not be defined away or separated into a regrouped set of racial clusters. Critics of this study in turn hold that it achieves its results by manipulation of data clusters and analysis categories, casting a wide net to achieve generic, general statistical similarities with populations such as Europeans and Indians. At the same time, the statistical net is cast much more narrowly in the case of 'blacks', carefully defining them as an extreme type south of the Sahara and excluding related populations like Somalians, Nubians and Ethiopians, as well as the ancient Badarians, a key indigenous group.
It is held by Keita et al. that when the data are looked at in toto, without the clustering manipulation and selective exclusions above, then a more accurate and realistic picture emerges of African diversity. For example, ancient Egyptian matches with Indians and Europeans are generic in nature (due to the broad categories used for matching purposes with these populations) and are not due to gene flow. Ancient Egyptians such as the Badarians show greater statistical affinities to tropical African types and are not identical to Europeans. As regards the key Badarian group, a 2005 study by anthropologist S. O. Y. Keita of Badarian crania in predynastic upper Egypt found that the predynastic Badarian series clusters much closer with the tropical African series than European samples.
Diop's theory on variability is also supported by a number of scholars mapping human genes using modern DNA analysis. This has shown that most of human genetic variation (some 85–90%) occurs within localized population groups, and that race only can account for 6–10% of the variation. Arbitrarily classifying Maasai, Ethiopians, Shillouk, Nubians, etc., as Caucasian is thus problematic, since all these peoples are northeast African populations and show normal variation well within the 85–90% specified by DNA analysis. Modern physical anthropologists also question splitting of peoples into racial zones. They hold that such splitting is arbitrary insertion of data into pre-determined pigeonholes and the selective grouping of samples.
From our friend Wikipedia, a very reliable source!
Nassbean, the man in the middle appears to have afro type hair. The other men are unknown due to the turbans
Would you say dark skin + afro type hair is definitely a "black person" ?
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
Also, didn't you use Carleton Coon as a source? Thee Carleton Coon, whose racialist theories had a major impact on Southern Segregationists?
In 2001, John P. Jackson, Jr. researched Coon's papers to review the controversy around the reception of The Origin of Races, stating in the article abstract
"Segregationists in the United States used Coon's work as proof that African Americans were "junior" to white Americans, and thus unfit for full participation in American society. The paper examines the interactions among Coon, segregationist Carleton Putnam, geneticist Theodosius Dobzhansky, and anthropologist Sherwood Washburn. The paper concludes that Coon actively aided the segregationist cause in violation of his own standards for scientific objectivity."
From again our friend Wikipedia, a very very reliable source!
Yet, you have the nerve to criticize Diop, whose claims and theories are actually supported by contemporary Anthropologists, as well as Geneticists!
quote:"Among the part-time and full-time nomads the interracial relationship is more complicated. The Ait Atta for example, who pasture their sheep ion the middle Atlas in summer and in the Dades Valley to the south in winter, have their castles and gardens in Dades valley. There they delegate the agricultural work to caste of Negroid serfs, the Haratin . Other Haratin are found in oases all along the northern fringe of the Sahara, and indeed throughout the desert.The camel nomads, particular the famed Tuareg, or People of Vel, are divided into castes of nobles, imghad, or camel-breeding dependents who also have their Haratin, and slaves. The merchant communities of the great oases, like the Mzabites of Ghardaia, foster endogamy as they belong to a schismatic sect of Islam, that of the Khawarij, or Kharijites. They to have their gardens tilled by Haratin . " From "THE LIVING RACES OF MAN" by Carleton S. Coon, 1965
The Tuareg (White/Biden)
The Haratin (Black/Sudan)
quote:Paoli 1972 for example found a significant resemblance between ABO frequencies of dynastic Egyptians and the black northern Haratin who are held to be the probable descendants of the original Saharans (Hiernaux, 1975). In Paoli's analysis the q gene frequencies between the two groups showed up in high frequencies (over 20%) and were close together. In European populations though this gene frequency is below 10%. The Haratin, as a broad group, are considered by (Cabot-Briggs 1958, Hiernaux 1975) to be not simply recent populations, but to also incorporate part of the ancient aboriginal population of North Africa as well. The Haratin are considered Berbers according to the Encyclopedia Brittanica
Nassbean has been very disingenuous throughout these exchanges. He has campaigned (for years now) to extricate Nubians of any kind from AE by intimating his coastal Berbers in their place instead. He now says that he never claimed AE despite this being a laughable reversal of his long-standing position.
He pretends to not understand that cultures in the Nubian desert like Nabta Playa were important to the rise of Dynastic Egypt and that Ta-Seti and the Upper Egyptian predynastic cultures were closely related.
Nassbean was adamant that Egyptians could not be linked with populations in Northeast Africa Africa or the Horn; he conceded that Lower Nubians and Upper Egyptians were virtually identical but then tries to assuage his battered ego by claiming that only a small amount of Upper Egyptians looked like this and does not provide an iota of evidence for this... preferring the idea that AE in Aswan and Luxor were outliers; that most Upper Egyptians looked more like Lower Egyptians, Maghrebis and Middle-Easterners.
The Berber Nationalist is then showed that the area between Aswan and Luxor was one of the most heavily populated areas in Egypt, but he then brushes this off without so much as an attempt to address it.
The AE don't need to look like Niger-Congo people or Nilotes; links with Northeast Africa is what any sane person would argue for.
Posted by Ty Daniels (Member # 23186) on :
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Nassbean has been very disingenuous throughout these exchanges. He has campaigned (for years now) to extricate Nubians of any kind from AE by intimating his coastal Berbers in their place instead. He now says that he never claimed AE despite this being a laughable reversal of his long-standing position.
He pretends to not understand that cultures in the Nubian desert like Nabta Playa were important to the rise of Dynastic Egypt and that Ta-Seti and the Upper Egyptian predynastic cultures were closely related.
Nassbean was adamant that Egyptians could not be linked with populations in Northeast Africa Africa or the Horn; he conceded that Lower Nubians and Upper Egyptians were virtually identical but then tries to assuage his battered ego by claiming that only a small amount of Upper Egyptians looked like this and does not provide an iota of evidence for this... preferring the idea that AE in Aswan and Luxor were outliers; that most Upper Egyptians looked more like Lower Egyptians, Maghrebis and Middle-Easterners.
The Berber Nationalist is then showed that the area between Aswan and Luxor was one of the most heavily populated areas in Egypt, but he then brushes this off without so much as an attempt to address it.
The AE don't need to look like Niger-Congo people or Nilotes; links with Northeast Africa is what any sane person would argue for.
Because his goal like every other Anti-Black cookie-cutter "bio-diversity" troll, is to antagonize Black people.
Black "Americans" to be specific.
It's pathological, their ego is tied up in "Getting One Over" on the "Darkies".
It speaks to a greater problem, a projection of a deep-seeded, unconscious inferiority complex.
These types aren't interested in learning, or very rarely concede points, when proven wrong.
Because the mind is fixed from the beginning.
So-Called "Negro" Phenotypes, Darkly pigmented skin, and "Sub Saharan" dna = "Inferior" to them, thus automatically wrong.
This position has to maintained at all costs, thus the constant contradictions, and discrepancies in his "arguments".
Quoting Carleton Coon, while simultaneously disparaging and dismissing Diop.
See Diop is "black" so "automatically wrong" regardless of his education, actual accomplishments/training, skill etc...
It's pathological.
On the other hand If a "Black" person disparages another Black person, while taking on "Anti-Afrocentric" talking points, that person in the low-comprehension, anti-black's "brain" is "Smart", a "True African".
Like the Congolese dude, he posted a link to taking bad about Black American "Afrocentrics".
Random Black dude talking bad about "Afrocentric" = Smart.
"Afrocentric" Black Scientist with actual hands on experience = "Automatically Wrong".
Once again its pathological.
Get the straight jacket!
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
quote:Among ancient populations, early Neolithic Moroccans share affinities with Levantine Natufian hunter-gatherers (~9,000 BCE) and Pre-Pottery Neolithic farmers (~6,500 BCE). Late Neolithic (~3,000 BCE) Moroccan remains, in comparison, share an Iberian component of a prominent European-wide demic expansion, supporting theories of trans-Gibraltar gene flow. Finally, the Andalusian Early Neolithic samples share the same genetic composition as the Cardial Mediterranean Neolithic culture that reached Iberia ~5,500 BCE. The cultural and genetic similarities of the Iberian Neolithic cultures with that of North African Neolithic sites further reinforce the model of an Iberian intrusion into the Maghreb
quote:"Our Copper Age dataset includes a newly reported male (I4246) from Camino de las Yeseras in central Iberia, radiocarbon dated to 2473–2030 calibrated years BCE, who clusters with modern and ancient North Africans in the PCA (Fig. 1C and fig. S3) and, like ~3000 BCE Moroccans (8), can be well modeled as having ancestry from both Late Pleistocene North Africans(15) and Early Neolithic Europeans (tables S9 and S10). His genome-wide ancestry and uniparental markers (tables S1 and S4) are unique among Copper Age Iberians, including individuals from sites with many analyzed individuals such as Sima del Ángel, and point to a North African origin. Our genetic evidence of sporadic contacts with North Africa during the Copper Age fits with the presence of African ivory at Iberian sites (16) and is further supported by a Bronze Age individual (I7162) from Loma del Puerco in southern Iberia who had 25% ancestry related to individuals like I4246 (Fig. 1D and table S16)."
Wow, this is really a gamechanger. Guys, I think it's time to accept the facts and to stop drowning ourselves in denialism! I can't believe that i'm saying this but North Africa never had a significant Black population. North Africans were always Caucasian and not Negroid! The contemporary population were the same as their ancestors and are thus the rightful heirs to Ancient North Africa's heritage! The Blacks that was once prominent in North Africa were displaced by Eurasians from the Iberian Peninsula and the Levant, therefore no getting around that. Any Blacks that were present across North Africa's history were Slaves or outcasts. It time to accept the truth! Ou history isn't rooted in North Africa, but Sub-Saharan Congolese Bantuid Negroid Africa and her satellite the Iberian Peninsula, plus the Levant! I mean, Afrocentrists were going at it the wrong way! It wasn't North Africa that we made significant contributions, but I Erica and the Levant! That explains a lot! Remember, after the Eurasians took over North Africa, our people made their way to the South to the land of Nig Nog, but a few of us made our way up North and secretly settled our enemies homelands Iberia and the Levant. We made a sneak attack on the invaders own homelands and took over their domains, massacring and enslaving any pale-faced Devil we saw! Yes, it makes all sense. We occupied the Levant and Iberia until those pesty White Devils eventually recolonized their homelands! We have been played guys, lets forget North Africa and accept our true heritage, Sub-Sahara Negroidia and the Levant/Iberia! Don't believe me? These quotes will back my claims up!
Genetic and Anthropological evidence of African presence in the Levant
From the Mesolithic to the early Neolithic period different lines of evidence support an out-of-Africa Mesolithic migration to the Levant by northeastern African groups that had biological affinities with sub-Saharan populations. From a genetic point of view, several recent genetic studies have shown that sub Saharan genetic lineages (affiliated with the Y-chromosome PN2 clade; Underhill et al. 2001) have spread through Egypt into the Near East, the Mediterranean area, and, for some lineages, as far north as Turkey (E3b-M35 Y lineage; Cinniogclu et al. 2004; Luis et al. 2004), probably during several dispersal episodes since the Mesolithic. This finding is in agreement with morphological data that suggest that populations with sub-Saharan morphological elements were present in northeastern Africa, from the Paleolithic to at least the early Holocene, and diffused northward to the Levant and Anatolia beginning in the Mesolithic…This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations...”
Source: (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005)
They were clearly a Negroid people, said Sir Arthur, with wide faces flat-noses and long large heads."
Source: 1932 NY Times “BONES OF CANNIBALS A PALESTINE RIDDLE” (Discovery of the Natufians)
The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants, although the prehistoric/modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa. Basques and Canary Islanders are clearly associated with modern Europeans. When canonical variates are plotted, neither sample ties in with Cro-Magnon as was once suggested.
Source: A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal Diversity in Africa
In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005), in concordance with a process of demie diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994)."
A late Pleistocene-early Holocene northward migration (from Africa to the Levant and Anatolia) of these populations has been hypothesized from skeletal data (Angel 1972, 1973; Brace 2005) and from archaeological data, as indicated by the probable Nile Valley origin of the "Mesolithic" (epi-Paleolithic) Mushabi culture found in the Levant (Bar Yosef 1987). This migration finds some support in the presence in Mediterranean populations (Sicily, Greece, southern Turkey, etc.; Patrinos et al.; Schiliro et al. 1990) of the Benin sickle cell haplotype.”
Source: Ricaut et al 2008. Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Popion Hum Bio 80:5 535-64
I accidentally forgot to mention that we had satellites in Anatolia and the Balkans.
Genetic and Anthropological evidence of African presence in the Iberian Peninsula
"Being at the western fringe of Europe, Iberia had a peculiar prehistory and a complex pattern of Neolithization. A few studies, all based on modern populations, reported the presence of DNA of likely African origin in this region, generally concluding it was the result of recent gene flow, probably during the Islamic period. Here, we provide evidence of much older gene flow from Africa to Iberia by sequencing whole genomes from four human remains from northern Portugal and southern Spain dated around 4000 years BP (from the Middle Neolithic to the Bronze Age). We found one of them to carry an unequivocal sub-Saharan mitogenome of most probably West or West-Central African origin, to our knowledge never reported before in prehistoric remains outside Africa. Our analyses of ancient nuclear genomes show small but significant levels of sub-Saharan African affinity in several ancient Iberian samples, which indicates that what we detected was not an occasional individual phenomenon, but an admixture event recognizable at the population level. We interpret this result as evidence of an early migration process from Africa into the Iberian Peninsula through a western route, possibly across the Strait of Gibraltar.”
"To this end, in the present work we have screened entire mtDNA sequences belonging to U6, M1 and L haplogroups in Andalusians —from Huelva and Granada provinces—and Moroccan Berbers. We present here pioneer data and interpretations on the role of NW Africa and the Iberian Peninsula regarding the time of origin, number of founders and expansion directions of these specific markers. The estimated entrance of the North African U6 lineages into Iberia at 10 ky correlates well with other L African clades, indicating that U6 and some L lineages moved together from Africa to Iberia in the Early Holocene. Still, founder analysis highlights that the high sharing of lineages between North Africa and Iberia results from a complex process continued through time, impairing simplistic interpretations. In particular, our work supports the existence of an ancient, frequently denied, bridge connecting the Maghreb and Andalusia."
"The composition of haplotypes and haplogroups of ancient samples from the Near East and the Iberian Peninsula differs markedly from that found in the current populations of these geographical regions. In the ancient Middle East show highlights in particular the absence of mitochondrial haplogroup J, U3, W and X, associated with the Neolithic expansion into Europe. This may be due either to the sample obtained is not old chronologically or geographically-representative populations of the Middle East that spread during the Neolithic well that these variants were not introduced in Europe during the Neolithic. In the ancient sample of the Iberian Peninsula highlights the presence of 50% of sub-Saharan lines. These lines may have been introduced during the Solutrean, the Mesolithic or Neolithic. This work also delved into various technical aspects of obtaining authentic ancient DNA and the influence of several variables in the preservation of genetic material."
Nassbean, I give up! I have finally come to truth of World history! Eurocentric history is all supported by credible scholars and Afrocentrism is disease! Let's rid ourselves of this psychotic menace by spreading true history once and for all! I now accept my true cross-cultural heritage of the Negroid people! Caucasian heritage for the Caucasians, Negro heritage for the Negroes!
Behold a Natufian Man! Descendant of the Negroid Conquerors of the Levant!
......Wait, wasn't the Natufians the Eurasian Invaders?
......"Oops, Contradiction!" Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Most UPPER Egyptians that were the ORIGINAL founders looked like Ethiopians and Nubians. No one was arguing ALL Egyptians through all eras looked like them. But that the founders DID.
Dude, sorry I have to interject here.....
Oi. But of course..
quote:Ramses was from Upper Egypt and his family upper Egyptian and not very mixed.
Huh? Upper Egypt had been mixing for thousands of years with both Asiatics and Lower Egyptians by the time he was born. The phenotype becomes less dominant by the New Kingdom so it's certainly possible he didn't have it. It wasn't completely erased, but it lacked it's prior dominance. Oh, and in the case of mass immigration and Asiatic rule, a large portion of Upper Egypt was theirs to control as well. That reconstruction could well be accurate, it's not impossible.
quote: The point being that if there was any mixture it was between Upper Egyptians and people further south.
That is wishful thinking. We know from the first dynasty Upper Egyptians had no reservations taking northern wives. Neithotep's name would suggest she came from the Delta, as Neith's cult primarily resided there. In the sparsely populated Abusir el-Meleq, two skeletal types lived there, one associated with Upper Egypt, and the other with Lower Egypt. Years of contact plus a large scale migration from Canaan (following increased aridity of the Sahara at about 2,000 B.C) could very EASILY explain that reconstruction if true. I've no pony in the discussion of what Ramses is.So whatever.
quote: Sure some mixture did occur from elsewhere but as mentioned before the power base and origin of Egyptian culture was always in the South and derived from Southern populations.
Always? No. But the cultural origin developed there.
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by Ase: It's not "American" but it's an issue throughout the west. People with NO African mixture have been labeled as blacks by the west. The issue is also context. You're injecting a perspective on what is "same enough" or genetically "close enough" to a conversation where we've been discussing what is "same enough" to the west for reasons of personal safety. Most blacks understand that race is an irrational assemblage of what white westerners have decided among themselves is "same enough" looking to get the same treatment. Discussing genetics and the like is ultimately irrelevant because it's not what enforces their opinions no matter what they say. If it was about SSA, how come Aboriginals that have NO connection to Africa are involved? WE are more closely related genetically than to an Aboriginal and you're not black. While you don't have to personally believe the Aboriginal to look "same enough" to other blacks, the many white ethnic groups that moved in ultimately did. That's our point.
I still think there is some kind of Hypocrisy because if you know that it's an eurocentric social construct why putting ancient upper egyptians under this same eurocentric label ?
There's nothing "hypocritical" in saying what regional Egyptian phenotypes under this system would be. It's stating the fact of how it'd be judged. Nor is the purpose of doing that to affirm the legitimacy of Eurocentric/white supremacist ideology. In fact it's the opposite.
quote: "The attempt to force the Egyptians into either a “black” or a “white” category has no biological justification.
Didn't I just tell you race is a social construct? So why would what I'm saying require genetic justification? It HAS none, much to the dismay of white supremacists. That's the point. It's not an issue of us forcing anything either. We're saying that is the way the Upper Egyptian phenotypes are judged. ANY people judged have no choice. Nobody wants to be treated like shit for their appearance by westerners.
quote: Our data show not only that Egypt clearly had biological ties to the north and to the south, but that it was intermediate between populations to the east and the west, and that Egypt was basically Egyptian from the Neolithic right on up to historic times. In this, our analysis simply reinforces the findings of other recent studies" https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/ajpa.1330360603
Not sure what you're quoting this for. It contradicts nothing I've said.
quote:Also you are aware than most people on this site don't share your opinions because they clearly imagine AEs to have looked like modern bantus some of them even think AE was a panafrican civilization.
Some people have taken southern Egyptian STRs and found the closest relationships to be SSA, yes. But I'm talking about race. The original Upper Egyptian phenotype is generally understood to be like Nubians or Ethiopians.
quote: My point since the beginning was just to show that berbers such as me are indigenous to north africa since at least the Neolithic era and also that AEs were similar to modern egyptians (that you consider some of them to be "black" is not a problem but it's not my opinion).
Yes but our opinions is about what whites will deem a phenotype racially based on what they've done historically. You having a personal take of phenotype outside of that racial context is not an opinion on RACE. No one black wanted race or got to choose. No one asks who we think looks enough like us or not. It's FORCED. That's the whole point. You don't think it's rational? Join the club. I honestly don't know who the southern Egyptians most closely resembled genetically. I don't think there's enough data yet and that people are attempting to stretch what the data CAN say more than what the data can honestly vouch for. But it wouldn't bother me or refute my point if it were the truth. I've been cautious to assume northern Egyptian genotypes are exactly the same as the original southerners after seeing those Amarna STRs, but their race doesn't have anything to do with that either way. So as far as race discussions go? In the grand scheme of things I don't care.
White supremacists may ARGUE that it matters because they're spreading the lie race is nestled deep in genetics. And some have a knee jerk reaction to refute EVERYTHING they talk about when discussing race, regardless of whether it's necessary. But like I said before about white supremacists: They've said phenotypes that aren't even African are "black" and I'm in no way related to an Aboriginal or Negrito. So as far as I'm concerned, that's the same ol' intellectual dishonesty many of us have come to expect.
quote: You also can't deny the trans-saharan slave trade we have tons of historical and genetic evidence ...I mean what's next ? Are you going to deny the atlantic slave trade too lol ? It can't be questioned imo what's questionable is the impact of this slave trade.
I'm not denying a trans saharan slave trade happened. I'm saying that it's impact to Saharan societies is not uniform. Great Lakes African ancestry has been detected around the Egyptian portion of North Africa, but that wasn't really a place subject to the trans Saharan trade.
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Ase: You can discuss physical likeness within another context if you want, but within the western RACIAL context most of us speak within, all that matters is who looks same enough to the westerners because it might be the difference between preferential treatment or getting bombed in conflicts over indigenous land and resources. Average blacks will get angry when people interject a conversation that is clearly discussing this specific contextual phenomenon to discuss an entirely different perspective as though it's on topic or has the level of impact to their daily lives.
I partially agree : "western racial context" I swear in europe most upper egyptians I posted wouldn't be seen as black but more as dark arab (same for some nubians) and the american players I posted would be seen as mixed/biracial/métisse not black I don't even think black africans here would consider them to be "black" and I'm pretty sure of this (If you still don't believe me ask any european you'll meet).
And see, that's your problem. We (including people like Steph Curry) orient our conversations on what Europeans DO. Those of us who remember the Native Americans know what happened when people developed a worldview concerning whiteness that carried too little a regard for how their behavior measured against it. They lost their sacred lands and were pretty much annihilated with few exceptions in the Northern Hemisphere. Not much better happened in the Southern Hemisphere.
Look, it's not that whites don't sometimes try to use those labels here from time to time. But when we say we are "black" regardless, they don't check us or get very defensive about it. We BOTH know when blacks say that (and when they say it), what is meant is just "lighter black." "Multatto" (or "mixed" which is more PC) acknowledges the European/Asiatic ancestry, but whether it's "Mulatto" "Negrito" or whatever, they are ultimately talking people who will more than likely be treated the way blacks get treated. Like I said, blacks with NO ancestry from Africa get the label. So why do you think it matters when the west exercises anti-blackness if someone's mixed with SSA or not? Unless those mixed people with black ancestors manage pass for another race, the west will still respond with anti blackness. The issue of interest is treatment--actions. Not getting caught up in what they SAY and don't follow up on.
...Oh. and a lot of the pictures of southerners in modern Egypt I've seen in this thread would NOT be "mulatto-black."
quote:The way you speak of them is disrespectful : lower egyptians were not "assimilates" even prior to the unification their culture was similar to what was found in the south and Narmer simply unified both kingdoms.
....No. No it wasn't. Lower Egyptians didn't have kinglets or protostates before Abydos started colonizing the north, Abydos WAS it's first one. Nekhen, and Ta Seti which spanned from southern Egypt into northern Sudan did. Lower Egyptian sites also show signs of greater Near Eastern influences --most especially stuff that you cannot explain by mere imports like subterranean dwellings. The technology of the societies were also underdeveloped compared to the south and they've yet to find anything in the pre-colonial (northern) predynastic that was comparable to the development of southern Egypt.
Obviously I'm not making a blanket statement of all peoples with the northern phenotype, and believe people with the phenotype had founded other civilizations. But within an Egyptian context the founders didn't look like that and the cultural complex was built around southern Egypt and northern Sudan.
quote: The south was probably more influential because of a bigger demography but that's it...
Whether they overwhelmed the North through numbers or not, it doesn't really matter. They were culturally dominant and quintessential to both the creation of the Egyptian state and the cultural complex we associate with it. The North adapted to that culture.
quote:Also Ancient Egypt lasted 3100 years no need to focus only on the pre-dynastic era all the inhabitants of this region during 3000 years played a role not only the "founders".
Didn't argue they didn't, but if someone's saying black people CANNOT build civilizations when there are a bunch of people with the phenotype that did do it, obviously I'm going to call bullshit. Certain developments in Egypt like the alphabet and stuff made by Lower Egyptians (like Coptic) I do NOT say confidently were black in origin. So yes, I agree that over the course of the history all phenotypes contributed. However I'm mostly talking about a specific contribution: I'm saying the peoples whose culture and presence was most quintessential to Egypt ever coming into being as we know it were black in phenotype.
quote:"It's STUPID to say that there's a genetic foundation to such an attitude to make it sound better." --> Indeed but there is nothing wrong with saying that the founders of x civilization had x ancestry and were similar to modern y population.
Yes to the extent the science can show it. We don't have the genetic data of the founders. We have genetic data at best of people thousands of yeas later after much mingling. I mean we have southern samples from what? The Amarnas and Rameses III? The Dakhleh remains are not a good stand in because they didn't identify with Egyptians, had contacts with foreigners, were very inbred, and what contact they had with Egypt was northern. The genetic similarity to ALL of Egypt is something that's too soon to say. That's not me trying to convince you of race, I don't need the DNA for that. I'm saying what I'm saying because the science has mostly focused on mid to later periods and/or northern sites.
quote: People have the right to say such population wasn't black or white or east asian don't interpret this as some kind of ideological war it's not.
Yes but what got people defensive was that people tried to discuss the matter in more specific terms: saying that people in very specific regions in specifically outlined periods in Egypt were black. That got rejected too so at that point, more people understandably interpret that as the presence of blacks in Egypt being scrubbed out.
quote:Alright then in this case I totally accept your point of view no problem but be honest with yourself you already know that your opinion is not shared by most people here if not all of them based on what I saw. Moreover be open minded and also accept my point of view that it is relevant to whites or not I still have the right to not see upper egyptians as black.
You can have an opinion, I've said this to black posters too. However like I told them: If some of us are having a very specific conversation about race (a western social construct) for the purpose of debunking it and showing it's stupid-- understand that people will take it as deflecting, self hate or defense of it when you interject into the conversation with no consideration of context. And within that context, if you don't have the power to make the decision on who gets to be what, what you personally think looks same enough to be black does not matter. Many BLACKS don't personally think they look "same enough" to one another either! But they accept the other person is black because when discuss blackness within a RACIAL construct, what we're all really asking is: What does the historical record show us as far as what phenotypes whites will treat as black? We don't decide that, so we evaluate the history of those that do! And that's an important discussion for us to have because to do so is a matter of our safety.
quote: btw I want your opinion on this : do you consider the presentator in this video to be "black" ? (he's egyptian and he looks exactly like how I imagine AEs to have looked like in average) --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIyTTulb7GI
He's what I'd think you'd find in the north to mid regions of Egypt, especially depending on the time period. Older/Southern locations like Aswan? Not so much. Would he be "black?" in some photos he could be light skinned
Other photos not so much.
I'll say he could probably get by without worrying too much about anti black discrimination and treatment. If he were a bit darker with a bit of a wave or curl to his hair...like ...well....
He'd have more to worry about. Also.. this woman below that was posted earlier? Even though she's not Old Kingdom, she would be black. And yes, even with the skin tone. Her artistic representation seems like the tone was darker, but it doesn't really matter.
Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
quote:The south was probably more influential because of a bigger demography but that's it...
That's a hilarious lie, Nassbean. My previous response to you on this mater will suffice:
You're absolutely right, Maghrebi... the Predynastic cultures of Upper Egypt were only responsible for State formation; Upper Egypt was only responsible for the creation of both the White Crown and the Red Crown - symbols of Egyptian kingship; Upper Egypt was only much larger; Upper Egypt was only more populous, actually organised as one kingdom, was more advanced and richer at the heels of their conquest of the divided and poorer North -> introducing the Pharaonic kingship that forever defined Egypt; and Upper Egypt only invented (hieroglyphics) and introduced it to the North and imposed the powerful priestly class in Thebes that did much to shape Egyptian spirituality and religion.
Foreign invaders were also almost invariably expelled by Upper Egyptian warrior-kings, but hey, all of this means nothing, right?
quote: While not attempting to underestimate the contribution that Deltaic political and religious institutions made to those of a united Egypt, many Egyptologists now discount the idea that a united prehistoric kingdom of Lower Egypt ever existed." ...."While communities such as Ma'adi appear to have played an important role in entrepots through which goods and ideas form south-west Asia filtered into the Nile Valley in later prehistoric times, the main cultural and political tradition that gave rise to the cultural pattern of Early Dynastic Egypt is to be found not in the north but in the south.":
The Cambridge History of Africa: Volume 1, From the Earliest Times to c. 500 BC, (Cambridge University Press: 1982), Edited by J. Desmond Clark pp. 500-509
The two portions of Egypt were never equal in terms of size, importance, sophistication, power, organisation, wealth and demographics.
Upper Egypt truly was the heart of ancient Egypt and most of Upper Egypt's population was concentrated in the area between Aswan and Luxor, so most AE looked like the people of Wawat and Punt.
Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
The dude looks like Vin Diesel ... and you know..
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Jari I know value appreciate and use your scholarship. You are one of the rare ppl bothering to actual team up w/me in investigating Africana. And you've payed the price for exposing the evil side of Islam here on ES as if blx are on equal playing ground with West Eurasians and MENA or shouldn't express pain when struck out of consideration for the striker.
Since slavery became shunted onto African blx, our women are viewed as free kitty by every ppl on earth. No Beydane recognizes offspring from one as a legitimate son or daughter.
Unfortunately Blk American female recording artist don't understand or believe that and Nigerian Ulra-pimps serve out their women like pizza delivery all over the world. Saudi once banned them from hajj due to whoring the hajjis.
Yes trick babies are Maur but not Beydane Maur. They totally id as Maur and are the goons used to thug on non-Maur blx in Mauritania.
And true Beydane Maurs are the least light skinned Asio-African speakers in the greater NW sector of Africa.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Oh Im fully aware of this. Ive studied Islamic and Moorish history for years.
Ive actually read books, unlike the Bio-diversity google scholars.
I also know their dirty little secret, that being Bidane is passed on paternally
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Here're CODIS STRs of that funny looking guy Yuya re Africa and Eurasia
Hmm, the guy himself is a person with admixture from outside of Africa.
If you claim that Hassan Hakimi is "pure Berber" like the proto-Berbers you are absolutely crazy. Achraf Hakimi's mother looks like the proto-Berbers. But lets say that his mom is haratin, doesn't that make Achraf a haratin as well? That's the most logical thing to go by, isn't it?
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
here a member of the royal guard (descendent of the abid al bukhari)
quote: North Africa is a key region for understanding human history, but the genetic history of its people is largely unknown. We present genomic data from seven 15,000-year-old modern humans from Morocco, attributed to the Iberomaurusian culture. We find a genetic affinity with early Holocene Near Easterners, best represented by Levantine Natufians, suggesting a pre-agricultural connection between Africa and the Near East. We do not find evidence for gene flow from Paleolithic Europeans into Late Pleistocene North Africans. The Taforalt individuals derive one third of their ancestry from sub-Saharan Africans, best approximated by a mixture of genetic components preserved in present-day West and East Africans. Thus, we provide direct evidence for genetic interactions between modern humans across Africa and Eurasia in the Pleistocene.
~Marieke van de Loosdrecht Pleistocene North African genomes link Near Eastern and sub-Saharan African human populations Science 15 Mar 2018: eaar8380 DOI: 10.1126/science.aar8380
quote: Analysis of uniparental markers have found two Y-chromosome lineages (E1b1b1a-M78 and E1b1b1b-M81) at high frequency in North African populations, although the origin and emergence of these lineages have been controversial, with some studies suggesting a Paleolithic component [28], while other studies pointing to a Neolithic origin [29]–[33]. E1b1b1a-M78 has probably emerged in Northeastern Africa [31] and is today widely distributed in North Africa, East Africa, and West Asia. E1b1b1b-M81 show high frequencies in Northwestern Africa and a high prevalence among Berbers. In particular, the Tuareg have 50% to 80% of their paternal lineages E1b1b1b-M81 [34], [35]. The Tuareg are seminomadic pastoralist groups that are mostly spread between Libya, Algeria, Mali, and Niger. They speak a Berber language and are believed to be the descendents of the Garamantes people of Fezzan, Libya (500 BC - 700 CE) [34].
[…]
As previously reported [28]–[30], [39], the two specific North African haplogroups, E1b1b1a-M78 and E1b1b1b-M81, are predominant in North African populations.
[…]
E-M78 network (Figure S3B) reveals high diversity within the haplogroup. This clade is mostly found in Middle Eastern populations and Northeastern Africans (27% in Libya and 33% in Egypt). Diversity values within haplogroup E-M78 are higher than for E-M81 (0.9903 ± 0.0017 and 4.1361 ± 2.0666, for HD and MPD respectively).
~Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid Genome-Wide and Paternal Diversity Reveal a Recent Origin of Human Populations in North Africa PLoS One. 2013 Nov 27;8(11):e80293. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0080293. eCollection 2013.
quote: E-M78 represents 74.5% of haplogroup E, the highest frequencies observed in Masalit and Fur populations.
~Hassan HY1, Underhill PA, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Ibrahim ME. Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History Am J Phys Anthropol. 2008 Nov;137(3):316-23. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.20876.
Here is the physical aspect of Fur/ Masalit:
quote:The group L3c of Watson et al. (1997) is renamed here as U6 (Richards et al. 1998) since it proves to constitute a part of haplogroup U (Richards et al. 1998) since it proves to constitute a part of haplogroup U.
[…]
In contrast, subhaplogroups L3c and L3d have somewhat younger divergence times—28,300–37,300 YBP and 17,600–23,200 YBP, respectively (table 4)—suggesting that they emerged after the evolution of L3a and L3b.
[…]
This analysis confirmed the distinctive nature of haplogroups L1–L3, which we previously had described (Chen et al. 1995), and also revealed that haplogroup L3 has three distinct sublineages: L3a, L3b, and L3c (Watson et al. 1997).
[…]
Since two of the L3d haplotypes (i.e., AF01 and AF02) identified in our study possess the HinfI np-12308 site-gain marker for haplogroup U (Torroni et al. 1996), haplotype U could have arisen in Africa and migrated into Europe. Consistent with this hypothesis, the third haplotype in this subhaplogroup (i.e., AF03) lacks this haplogroup U marker but clusters with the haplogroup U mtDNAs. Hence, AF03 could be an African precursor to haplogroup U; alternatively, the haplogroup U mtDNAs in our sample may have been introduced into Africa by a back-migration/flow of European mtDNAs. Additional L3d mtDNAs, from other African populations, will need to be analyzed to further clarify the relationship of African haplogroup L3 and L3d mtDNAs to European mtDNA haplogroups.
After the dispersal of modern humans Out of Africa, around 50–70 ky cal BP1,2,3,4 or earlier based on fossil evidence5, hominins with similar morphology to present-day humans appeared in the Western Eurasian fossil record around 45–40 ky cal BP, initiating the demographic transition from ancient human occupation [Neandertals] to modern human [Homo sapiens] expansion on to the continent1"
[...]
The haplogroup of PM1 falls within the U clade [Fig. 1B and Supplementary Table 3], which derived from the macro-haplogroup N possibly connected to the Out of Africa migration around 60–70 ky cal BP1,2,3,4. In line with this, the Peştera cu Oase individual that lived on the current territory of Romania, albeit slightly earlier than PM1 [37–42 ky cal BP] also displays haplogroup N9.
~Hervella et al. 2016
quote: Originally posted by Nassbean: Also the oldest african haplogroups we have are from from iberomaurusians and they were mainly E-m78 and mtdna U6 ...the exact origin of those haplogroups are still in debate and most of them tend to be in favor of a north african origin (region around libya and Egypt) instead of a east african one. I've also posted evidence of the craddle of the afro-asiatic family being in North africa but of course you avoided it.
You have some explain to do.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith:
The Tuareg (White/Biden)
.
.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Oh Im fully aware of this. Ive studied Islamic and Moorish history for years.
Ive actually read books, unlike the Bio-diversity google scholars.
I also know their dirty little secret, that being Bidane is passed on paternally, or that the people who currently control many of the Sanhadja or Saharan Berber manuscripts look like this...
notes Jari, you might want to go back and use this image hosted URL, the one you used keep breaking
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: :
Stop projecting your insecurities on me. We north africans are proud people we do not seek to be accepted by anyone.
You descent from immigrants who moved into North Africa, within the last millennium or so. You are not indigenous to the region. This was already exposed early in this thread. You yourself admitted to this.
Swallow this …
quote: E-M78 represents 74.5% of haplogroup E, the highest frequencies observed in Masalit and Fur populations.
~Hassan HY1, Underhill PA, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Ibrahim ME. Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History Am J Phys Anthropol. 2008 Nov;137(3):316-23. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.20876.
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: I think the problem resides in our different persepectives : You include certain people under the "black" label while in the same time I do not include them under this label. That's because of your social american context where even very mixed black individuals can be seen or identify as black.
People like them are considered "black" in america :
while their phenotypes don't exist in SSA ...their skin aren't even black/dark. That's why when I posted upper egyptians that I don't view as "black" some members here were suprised because they would consider them black.
Well, that claim is false. There are people with those facial traits and color complexion in SSA. And these Black Americans have a history in America for at that goes back at least 500 years!
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: I view Africa as a complex entity and I don't simply divide it between black and white. There is also the problem of admixture : North africa is genetically quite diverse when it comes to admixtures even though the main component is the NA one. So some individuals can appear darker or lighter and it can be quite confusing.
Black Americans didn't create this racial concept, in case you haven't noticed yet. So how you view things here is not relevant.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: If you say AEs were black because you consider upper egyptians as black then yes ok no problem (I don't) but it's still not fair because lower egyptians and the rest were also egyptians. Also it can be confusing because when people think of blacks they do not think of the specific upper egyptians or even nubians but they think about the most dominant/numerous group : the bantu one that's why you should say that AE was neither a white or black civilization.
Don't be ridiculous!
Sanaa and Sanaa.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: Also even if you view them as "black" why do you claim it ? why do you waste all your days on a forum about egypt while your true ancestors lived in West africa and North-west Europe ? I find it weird to claim a whole civilization just based on your skin color ...I will never claim Persia,Assyria or Sumer just because they had the same skin color as me. I don't even claim egypt
We can ask you the same questions. Where from the Middle East do you originally hail?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Stop pretending like posters haven't debunked your silly smoke and mirrors you Barbarian-centric liar..
That's exactly it! I and others have debunked this guys multiple times yet he just blantantly ignores the information to maintain his delusion.
The guy uses craniometric data when that same data shows (black) Somalis cluster with early Egyptians.
He claims E1b1b is "not Sub-Saharan" when the highest concentration and diversity lies in the Horn region which is sub-Sahara, and not to mention that both Middle-Easterners and Europeans have significant African admixture with Europeans on the whole being one-third African!
He claims ancient Egyptians weren't black even though I cited the 2004 Mekota study on dynastic mummy skins from Germany stating "The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin". And he consistently ignores the tons of pictures of non-Arab Baladi (indigenous) Egyptians who are clearly black in appearance.
Speaking of which he doesn't even accept the label of 'black' unless it is on a Sub-Saharan "true negro" archetype or West or Central African diasporan!
Behold!..
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Australian actor David Gulpili
black or not black?
No looks more Indian to me
ROTFL
'Black' is a description of skin color, while 'Indian' is a description of national or geographic origin. There are people who are both-- black and Indian as the idiot himself posted this example already!
Of course in his desperate denial he claims 'black' is somehow only used by Americans even though Indians use the same skin color terms in their languages. The Hindi word for black people is kalu which the Indian woman and Australian aborigine guy obviously are!
All you people in this forum with sense, leave Nassbean alone! The guy is done, he has been thoroughly debunked and beaten to death already. You're now just fighting with a mental zombie akin to 'The Walking Dead' except you can't destroy washed-brain on this one.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Thanks man, I appreciate the compliments, and you are right, Ill take your first hand knowledge. TBH I have'nt really studied the Heratin, All I remember is that some consider them the natives of Mariatania and Tunisia who were pushed south and enslaved by Arabs and Berbers, Then I read about them being slaves from sedintary Sudani people like Wolof, Songhai, Tekrur...etc.
Then I see black and tawny "Bidane" in their "Noble" or high caste robes, again my American culture sees them as black, and I know various Muslim cultures consider one an "Arab" through the Father, producing Jet Black Self Identified "Arabs" like the Sultans of Oman, and Blond Hair Blue Eyed Arabs sultans like the Al-Rahman caliphs of Andalus.
Even the Berber nationalist woman you posted considers Heratin as native North Africans and thus Berber and not Abid...
All I know is that the Heratin are still suffering, unlike white Europeans, the Arabs and Berbers are still proud of what they did and continue to do. Even the Confederates and sypathizers with the South, out shame tried to downplay slavery...claiming instead they were fighting for states rights.
Also notice how he attacks African Americans but tries to kiss the ass of Africans. We're low hanging fruit, and yes a fringe and very vocal part of our community identifies and claims to be Jews, Arabs and Moors. But Ive met Africans who spout Afrocentrism, Pan-Africanism, and Black Egypt. Zanj Africans claimed a black Egypt thousands of years before America even existed.
Back in the day when I posted stuff about Islam, I was actually reading, what they said, did and believed. I never understood black diasporan obsession with the Moors and North Africa. The Berbers themselves were second class serfs in Andalucia heyday(The same status they had in other "North African" empires.....If they love Islamic African Empires...the Swahili are perfect, and while they do have tales of Persian founding lineages, they produced a culture, Islamic-African, on African soil, without the help of Jews, Visogoth Spanish, Syrian and Ummyad Arabs like the Berbers did.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Jari I know value appreciate and use your scholarship. You are one of the rare ppl bothering to actual team up w/me in investigating Africana. And you've payed the price for exposing the evil side of Islam here on ES as if blx are on equal playing ground with West Eurasians and MENA or shouldn't express pain when struck out of consideration for the striker.
Since slavery became shunted onto African blx, our women are viewed as free kitty by every ppl on earth. No Beydane recognizes offspring from one as a legitimate son or daughter.
Unfortunately Blk American female recording artist don't understand or believe that and Nigerian Ulra-pimps serve out their women like pizza delivery all over the world. Saudi once banned them from hajj due to whoring the hajjis.
Yes trick babies are Maur but not Beydane Maur. They totally id as Maur and are the goons used to thug on non-Maur blx in Mauritania.
And true Beydane Maurs are the least light skinned Asio-African speakers in the greater NW sector of Africa.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Oh Im fully aware of this. Ive studied Islamic and Moorish history for years.
Ive actually read books, unlike the Bio-diversity google scholars.
I also know their dirty little secret, that being Bidane is passed on paternally
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
"debunked" wtf did you debunk ?? posting old and debunked sources won't help you it's not a coicidence if all their sources are from the XXth century or before 2005...
Meanwhile they couldn't refute all the dna results I posted , they couldn't refute the ancient depictions I posted , they couldn't refute the genetic and anthropological data I posted ...
Just a bunch of new world blacks with a heavy inferiority complex who try to claim every non-black civilizations they can ....pathetic They only see the world through their american dichotomical view.
No sorry you bantus are not related to horners let alone north africans.
Egypt was not a black or white civilization. It was a northafrican/middle eastern civilization that had no link with west,central,east and south Africa. The modern descendents of AEs are modern egyptians. Period. You have not a single evidence that they are genetically non-indigenous so your rhetorical arguments won't work with me.
I only talk here because of quarantine lol you're just clowns to me none of you debunked me and none of you convinced me.
Admin: ENOUGH!
[ 31. March 2020, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: Punos_Rey ]
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: they couldn't refute the ancient depictions I posted
You mean those few repetitive pictures that keep circulation on the internet that make up less than 10% of all images that can be seen in Egypt?
And you still fail to explain why 90% of all the images in Egypt look like this?
Copenhagen. På Carlsberg Glyptotek. AEIN 659, face of bust most likely showing king Senusret II., see M. Joergensen: Catalogue Egypt I (3000 - 1550 B.C.), Ny Carlsberg Glyptotek 1996
Relief aus dem Totentempel der Königin Hatschepsut Festprozession der ägyptischen Soldaten bei der Feier des 'schönen Fests im Wüstental'. Dynasty 18, 1479-1458 BC Limestone Thebes 33 x 58,5 cm Inv.-No. ÄM 14507
Period: Middle Kingdom Dynasty: Dynasty 12 Reign: reign of Amenemhat I–Senwosret I Date: ca. 1981–1952 B.C. Geography: From Egypt, Memphite Region, Lisht North, Pyramid Temple of Amenemhat I, MMA excavations, 1907 Medium: Limestone, paint Dimensions: H. 36.8 cm (14 1/2 in.); W. 172.7 cm (68 in.); D. 13.3 cm (5 1/4 in.) Credit Line: Rogers Fund, 1908 Accession Number: 08.200.5
quote: E-M78 represents 74.5% of haplogroup E, the highest frequencies observed in Masalit and Fur populations.
~Hassan HY1, Underhill PA, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Ibrahim ME. Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History Am J Phys Anthropol. 2008 Nov;137(3):316-23. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.20876.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by One Third African: Honestly, the discussion over who does and doesn't count as "black" and how "black" is defined became a tired one long ago. We all know that, not only do definitions differ across cultures and countries, but also that people will shift the goal posts whenever it's convenient.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
All you people in this forum with sense, leave Nassbean alone! The guy is done, he has been thoroughly debunked and beaten to death already. You're now just fighting with a mental zombie akin to 'The Walking Dead' except you can't destroy washed-brain on this one.
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: It was a northafrican/middle eastern civilization that had no link with west,central,east and south Africa.
Ok, if you say so it must be "true."
quote: “Meanwhile, in the Western Sahara, Joel Irish’s (2005) dental study, of 671 individuals spanning the Late Pleistocene through to the Christian periods, reveals a break in population continuity between the Pleistocene (Jebel Sahaba) and the Final Neolithic (Gebel Ramlah, dating to the first half of the fifth millennium BC) samples. The dental traits from Jebel Sahaba align more closely with modern sub-Saharan populations, while Gebel Ramlah and later align closer to Egypt specifically and to the Sahara in general.
Irish’s results are particularly informative in light of his earlier study of the human mortuary remains from Nabta Playa (Irish, 2001). Analyses of dental and osseous non-metric traits exhibit both sub-Saharan and North African linkages, with cranial morphologies yielding a similar result.
Taken together, the unexplored potential of the data from Saharan isotopic, genetic and skeletal studies lays in demonstrating the degree to which populations grade into each other, as well as intra-and inter-regional patterns of interactions and integration.”
quote: QUEEN HATASU has been happily described as the Queen Elizabeth of Egyptian history; and she was undoubtedly one of the most extraordinary women in the annals of the ancient East. A daughter of Thothmes I., third Pharaoh of the Eighteenth Dynasty, and of his wife, Queen Ahmes Nefertari, she inherited sovereign rights in virtue of her maternal descent from the old Twelfth Dynasty line.
quote: "There is still some debate regarding the precise location of Punt, which was once identified with the region of modern Somalia. A strong argument has now been made for its location in either southern Sudan or the Eritrean region of Ethiopia, where the indigenous plants and animals equate most closely with those depicted in the Egyptian reliefs and paintings.
~Ian Shaw, The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt, p. 317, 2003:
Men of Punt
King and Queen of Punt
quote: At a recent meeting in Oakland of the American Research Center in Egypt three scientists announced with confidence they had ruled out all of those five locations, and there was no disagreement from the 300 archaeologists there.
The Land of Punt, the scientist said, must have existed in eastern North Africa - either in the region where Ethiopia and Eritrea confront each other, or east of the Upper Nile in a lowland area of eastern Sudan.
More than a score of wooden cargo boxes coated with gypsum were found in the sand-filled cave, one of a series which lies at Wadi Gawasis, just south of Safaga on the western Red Sea coastline and about 300 miles southeast of Cairo. The ancient harbour, now inland from the present beach, lay at the point where an overland trade route from Qena on the Nile, and thus from the southern capital at Thebes and Luxor, reached the sea.
One of the boxes had a painted hieroglyphic inscription with a royal cartouche, probably of the Pharaoh Nimaatra Amenemhat III (1831-1786BC). It dates to Year 8 of his reign, and describes the contents of the box as "The wonderful things of Punt". Exactly what these "wonderful things" are will have to await the opening of the boxes.
Men from Punt Carrying Gifts, Tomb of Rekhmire Artist: Nina de Garis Davies (1881–1965) Period: New Kingdom Dynasty: Dynasty 18 Reign: reign of Thutmose III–early Amenhotep II Date: ca. 1479–1420 B.C. Geography: Original from Egypt, Upper Egypt, Thebes, Sheikh Abd el-Qurna, Tomb of Rekhmire (TT 100) Medium: Tempera on paper Dimensions: Facsimile: H. 46 cm (18 1/8 in.); W. 61.5 cm (24 3/16 in.) scale 1:1 Frame: H. 49 cm (19 5/16 in.); W. 65.5 cm (25 13/16 in.) Credit Line: Rogers Fund, 1930 Accession Number: 30.4.152
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: I only talk here because of quarantine lol you're just clowns to me none of you debunked me and none of you convinced me.
What is so special about that? We all are in quarantine. And nobody is here to "convince" you, you are not that special.
Anyway, is she haratin as well? If so, why? If not, why?
Is she haratin?
Are these haratin?
How do you think the people above are being viewed at in America?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Haratin is a multifaceted designation.
Usage is applied to different populations pending local meanings.
Algerian oasis Haratin aren't the same as Maurianian Hartini. They are Masters of the Waters and no oasis could live w/o them.
The former is much more a few millenia old mostly endogamous breeding population.
The latter is more a class designation for people.
I aint saying I know more n you but my resources go back farther plus this old man's held company of students and expatriates from the NW sector of Africa.
Just a few hours ago I went to buy couscous from Egyptian merchants who always show me nothng but respect expected in human interactions. But when I left and pulled opened the door an 'Arab' tried to walk in. I had to physically push him two feet back and told him I'm not his slave as he tried to walk through me after I told him I'm not holding the door for him but opening it for me. As he walked in the door after my exit he started to mouth off something until I turned around with fiery eyes and loudly told him again I'm not your slave. I stood ready. This burly man 30 yrs my junior turned and entered the store.
I am glad and thankful I did not have to go to jail for defending my honour. I do not the HipHop era blk kids who freely call themselves niggers in the presence of non-blx to disrespect me either. I suspect one o dem gon murder me once I'm too too old to defend myself w/o a firearm.
BTW bypasser harassing BHI are a far cry from "Black Jews". Obama's in-law Chief Rabbi Capers Funnye sits on the Chicago Board of Rabbis.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Thanks man, I appreciate the compliments, and you are right, Ill take your first hand knowledge. TBH I have'nt really studied the Heratin, All I remember is that some consider them the natives of Mariatania and Tunisia who were pushed south and enslaved by Arabs and Berbers, Then I read about them being slaves from sedintary Sudani people like Wolof, Songhai, Tekrur...etc.
Then I see black and tawny "Bidane" in their "Noble" or high caste robes, again my American culture sees them as black, and I know various Muslim cultures consider one an "Arab" through the Father, producing Jet Black Self Identified "Arabs" like the Sultans of Oman, and Blond Hair Blue Eyed Arabs sultans like the Al-Rahman caliphs of Andalus.
Even the Berber nationalist woman you posted considers Heratin as native North Africans and thus Berber and not Abid...
All I know is that the Heratin are still suffering, unlike white Europeans, the Arabs and Berbers are still proud of what they did and continue to do. Even the Confederates and sypathizers with the South, out shame tried to downplay slavery...claiming instead they were fighting for states rights.
Yeah it no funny Amazigh activist crying bout oppression and staging that "Berber Spring" while at the same time oppressing Berbers who are black and blx who aren't. Even though I taught Fanon as an undergrad I have as much use for him as 21st century Imazighen do who spit on that black man's efforts to champion Algeria against French colonialist abuses.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Baalberith:
The Tuareg (White/Biden)
. This one photo is not representative for upper caste Tuare. It also depends on what country the particular Tuaregs are from. Niger actually has the highest population but their social structure will look different from Libyan, Malian or Algerian. And also Burkina Fasp has the 3rd highest population after Mali (although population data might not be reliable)
I don't think that Mauritanian term bidane is used there. And the somewhat equivalent term to Haratin as regards the Tuareg is "Bella" or "Ikelan".
In Mali some Tuaregs claim to be racially marginalized by the "blacker" much larger population of non-Tuareg Malians (but in Niger perhaps upper caste less so color distinguished)
_______________________________
wikipedia
Tuareg
Slaves
Bellah constitute the historic slave strata within Tuareg society.[61] The Tuareg confederations acquired slaves as well as tribute paying states by conducting raids on communities to their south in West Africa.[7] They also secured captives as war booty or purchased slaves in markets.[62] The slaves or servile communities are locally called Ikelan (or Iklan, Eklan), and slavery was inherited, with the descendants of the slaves known as irewelen.[7][56]
According to the ethnographer Johannes Nicolaisen (1963), the Ikelan are of assimilated Nilotic origin rather than of Berber heritage like the ethnic Tuareg. They often live in communities separated from other castes. The Ikelan's Nilotic extraction is denoted via the Ahaggar Berber word Ibenheren (sing. Ébenher), which alludes to slaves that only speak a Nilo-Saharan language. The slaves of the Tuareg were generally of Sub-Saharan African heritage (Nilo-Saharan or Niger-Congo ethno-linguistic origins) and were captured during raids.[63]
The word ikelan itself means "to be black",[64] an allusion to most of the slaves.[62] In the post-colonial literature, the alternate terms for Ikelan include "Bellah-iklan" or just "Bellah" derived from a Songhay word.[61][65]
According to the historian Starratt (1981), the Tuareg evolved a system of slavery that was highly differentiated. They established strata among their slaves, which determined rules as to the slave's expected behavior, marriageability, inheritance rights if any, and occupation.[66] The Ikelan later became a bonded caste within Tuareg society, and they now speak the same Tamasheq language as the Tuareg nobles and share many customs.[63] According to Heath, the Bella in the Tuareg society were the slave caste whose occupation was rearing and herding livestock such as sheep and goats.[48]
When French colonial governments were established, they stopped acquisition of new slaves and slave trading in markets, but they did not remove or free domestic slaves from the Tuareg owners who had acquired their slaves before the French rule started.[67][68] In the Tuareg society, like with many other ethnic groups in West Africa, slave status was inherited, and the upper strata used slave children for domestic work, at camps and as a dowry gift of servants to the newlyweds.[69][70][71]
According to Bernus (1972), Brusberg (1985) and Mortimore (1972), French colonial interests in the Tuareg region were primarily economic, with no intention of ending the slave-owning institution.[72] The historian Klein (1998) states instead that, although French colonial rule indeed did not end domestic slavery within Tuareg society, the French reportedly attempted to impress upon the nobles the equality of the Imrad and Bella and to encourage the slaves to claim their rights.[73] He suggests that there was a large scale attempt by French West African authorities to liberate slaves and other bonded castes in Tuareg areas following the 1914–1916 Firouan revolt.[74] Despite this, French officials following the Second World War reported that there were some 50,000 "Bella" under direct control of Tuareg masters in the Gao–Timbuktu areas of French Soudan alone.[75] This was at least four decades after French declarations of mass freedom had happened in other areas of the colony.
In 1946, a series of mass desertions of Tuareg slaves and bonded communities began in Nioro and later in Menaka, quickly spreading along the Niger River valley.[76] In the first decade of the 20th century, French administrators in southern Tuareg areas of the French Sudan estimated that "free" to "servile" groups within Tuareg society existed at ratios of 1 to 8 or 9.[77] At the same time, the servile "rimaibe" population of the Masina Fulbe, roughly equivalent to the Bella, constituted between 70% to 80% of the Fulbe population, while servile Songhay groups around Gao made up some 2/3 to 3/4 of the total Songhay population.[77] Klein concludes that approximately 50% of the population of French Soudan at the beginning of the 20th century was in some servile or slave relationship.[77]
While post-independence states have sought to outlaw slavery, results have been mixed. Certain Tuareg communities still uphold the institution.[78] Traditional caste relationships have continued in many places, including slaveholding.[79][80] In Niger, where the practice of slavery was outlawed in 2003, according to the ABC News, almost 8% of the population are still enslaved.[81] The Washington Post reported that many slaves held by the Tuareg in Mali were liberated during 2013-14 when French troops intervened on behalf of the Malian government against Islamic radicals allied to the Tuareg.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Yeah man I hear you. Like I said in my research and readings and esp. from knowledge dropped by folks like Doug M., Dana, and DJ Ive came across countless folks, whole towns of people calling themselves Berbers, from various Kels, Timmimoun, Tissint, Tamegroute etc. all calling themselves Berber, but of course these folks are Saharan Natives not Coastal so they probably would be Heratin to Berber Nationalists...
As far as Egyptians go, I remember a few years back I was lurking on a history forum discussing the Egypt Race debate...mind you this was during its hey-day when the question was truly up in the air,(id say 2007-2010) and wiki-perdia was constantly being edited from various sides providing new evidence....Anyway I remember in that forum an Egyptian poster said to another that he didnt understand the big deal, that everyone in Egypt know that the current people are Egyptians but that Ancient Egypt was created by "black" Egyptians who now lived in the South.....I wish I had been more computer saavy or Id taken a screenshot...but I was a youngin' and my mind wasnt made up yet....anyway This was'nt an Africentist, but a native Egyptian who didn't have love for Afrocentrism.
This has been repeated by other Egyptians...even our resident troll Big-Moe to Aswani-Aswad in Arabic that the Black population were the "Innocent Doves" of Ancient Egypt, The Middle Egyptian woman in Truthteacher's video had no problem claiming Upper Egypt as older and the Upper Egyptians looked like Somali's and Ethiopians...but they could be outliers....All I know is that the Nubians are different, they recognize and love their blackness..
I remember a Youtube series...long gone, of an African American who girl was traveling through Egyptian Nubia, and living with a Nubian Family and she talked about he first hand experience of hospitality and how the Nubians called he their "Black Sister"...etc. She chalked it up to Muslim hospitality to strangers but also to a genuine pride for African Americans for the strides we made in further the plight of blackness.
Anyways Long Rant...sorry lol.
but before I go, not all Muslims or North Africans are like that...some of the DNA videos I watch are proud of DNA links to West Africans..
This one is interesting...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52poF8rJatc ^^^^ She exposes the desperation to be white by her kinsmen, rolling her eyes the way Blacks in America roll out eyes are the lightskin folks who think they're gods gift to earth..
She's probably African American imposing our standards on people
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Haratin is a multifaceted designation.
Usage is applied to different populations pending local meanings.
Algerian oasis Haratin aren't the same as Maurianian Hartini. They are Masters of the Waters and no oasis could live w/o them.
The former is much more a few millenia old mostly endogamous breeding population.
The latter is more a class designation for people.
I aint saying I know more n you but my resources go back farther plus this old man's held company of students and expatriates from the NW sector of Africa.
Just a few hours ago I went to buy couscous from Egyptian merchants who always show me nothng but respect expected in human interactions. But when I left and pulled opened the door an 'Arab' tried to walk in. I had to physically push him two feet back and told him I'm not his slave as he tried to walk through me after I told him I'm not holding the door for him but opening it for me. As he walked in the door after my exit he started to mouth off something until I turned around with fiery eyes and loudly told him again I'm not your slave. I stood ready. This burly man 30 yrs my junior turned and entered the store.
I am glad and thankful I did not have to go to jail for defending my honour. I do not the HipHop era blk kids who freely call themselves niggers in the presence of non-blx to disrespect me either. I suspect one o dem gon murder me once I'm too too old to defend myself w/o a firearm.
BTW bypasser harassing BHI are a far cry from "Black Jews". Obama's in-law Chief Rabbi Capers Funnye sits on the Chicago Board of Rabbis.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Thanks man, I appreciate the compliments, and you are right, Ill take your first hand knowledge. TBH I have'nt really studied the Heratin, All I remember is that some consider them the natives of Mariatania and Tunisia who were pushed south and enslaved by Arabs and Berbers, Then I read about them being slaves from sedintary Sudani people like Wolof, Songhai, Tekrur...etc.
Then I see black and tawny "Bidane" in their "Noble" or high caste robes, again my American culture sees them as black, and I know various Muslim cultures consider one an "Arab" through the Father, producing Jet Black Self Identified "Arabs" like the Sultans of Oman, and Blond Hair Blue Eyed Arabs sultans like the Al-Rahman caliphs of Andalus.
Even the Berber nationalist woman you posted considers Heratin as native North Africans and thus Berber and not Abid...
All I know is that the Heratin are still suffering, unlike white Europeans, the Arabs and Berbers are still proud of what they did and continue to do. Even the Confederates and sypathizers with the South, out shame tried to downplay slavery...claiming instead they were fighting for states rights.
Yeah it no funny Amazigh activist crying bout oppression and staging that "Berber Spring" while at the same time oppressing Berbers who are black and blx who aren't. Even though I taught Fanon as an undergrad I have as much use for him as 21st century Imazighen do who spit on that black man's efforts to champion Algeria against French colonialist abuses.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by Ase:
Nah, you didn't. Dear Yvette?
Probably Black America's closest to best political analysist.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
America is changing drastically over coronovirus, health threat and huge economic repercussions and the poor will get it worse If you look at Yvette Carnell's youtube she's not talking about, she is behind
Is anyone able to find more information about this picture?
Um I think the brown is the orignal bronze/brass/copper. You know like the green disease you see covering a penny sometimes. Malachite.
Will add more on the artpiece later after research.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Hey, the title tells nothing about the whole video. Vette even tells you about work around titling due to YouTube policy on Coronavirus, how YT might delete even appropriate vids to avoid lawsuits over pimping CoViD 19 mania.
Always with the know nothing controversy like you been watching Breakin Brown or Tone Talks solidly over any length of time.
You can't data mine troves of 90 minute long vids in 10 seconds.
Ppl need 2 shut up talkin what they know not about. Didn't ES just prove that with Nassbean?
Hood denizens follow Xyyman and shootin hoops like no invisible killer's on the court.
Up to 3 weeks before symptoms, sometimes no symptoms, but still infected and spreading to moms and fam w/o even knowing it.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Description: Ethiopian head. His hair is worked in very thick curls staged symmetrically around the head. The beard wraps in small twists along the cheeks and chin. The top of the head is pierced with a circular hole and there are still two hinges on the cover.
Mode of acquisition: legacy Donor (s), testator (s) or seller (s): Janzé, Hippolyte, viscount of Date of act of acquisition: 1865 Former membership (s): Janzé, Hippolyte, viscount of Inventory number: bronze.1018 Other number (s): Janzé.br.31 Bibliography: Snowden, Jr .. Blacks in Antiquity. 1970, p. 28, p. 81 no.54.
Volubilis (Berber languages: Wolubilis, Arabic: وليلي) is a partly excavated Berber city in Morocco situated near the city of Meknes, and commonly considered as the ancient capital of the kingdom of Mauretania.[1] Built in a fertile agricultural area, it developed from the 3rd century BC onward as a Berber, then proto-Carthaginian, settlement before being the capital of the kingdom of Mauretania. It grew rapidly under Roman rule from the 1st century AD onward and expanded to cover about 42 hectares (100 acres) with a 2.6 km (1.6 mi) circuit of walls.
______________________
_____________________________
A anthropomorphic balsarium, a vessel to contain ointment, balm or salve, in the shape of a bust with Nubian resemblance. Second century AD, made of bronze. Probable origin: Egypt.
Currently on view in the permanent collections of the Art & History Museum in Brussels, Belgium.
A Roman bronze balsamarium in the form of a head, 2nd - 3rd century, Hollow worked head of an African man with braided hair and expressive face, teeth visible between the open lips. The eyes and teeth separately inlaid in silver. At the back of the head a loop hinge which enables the lifting of the lid. the top layer of hair. Two lateral eyelets already broken off during the time of use, which formerly held the carrying handle of the balsamarium. Green patina with slight incrustations. Height 9.5 cm. Provenance: Austrian private collection,
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] Hey, the title tells nothing about the whole video. Vette even tells you about work around titling due to YouTube policy on Coronavirus, how YT might delete even appropriate vids to avoid lawsuits over pimping CoViD 19 mania.
I have probably been watching her videos before you have She doesn't monetize her videos with ads. People who monetize are the ones concerned because they leave the video but take away the ads so it can't make ad money.
So to prove you know what you are talking about reference a video title where she spends substantial time talking about coronavirus but it's not in the title, I'll wait
I made a thread on her in 2018 (although I know she goes back much further)
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Wait forever! I don't jump for you. Have nothing to prove to you. So continue w/yr blab blab woof woof Sekhmet chaos for those who'll eat it.
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: America is changing drastically over coronovirus, health threat and huge economic repercussions and the poor will get it worse If you look at Yvette Carnell's youtube she's not talking about, she is behind
Description: Ethiopian head. Her hair is worked in very thick curls staged symmetrically around the head. The beard wraps in small twists along the cheeks and chin. The top of the head is pierced with a circular hole and there are still two hinges on the cover.
1) How did they figure out this is the head of a slave?
2) Why is the has claimed to be from a female, while there clearly is a mustache visible?
The same was done here, when there clearly is facial hair:
The face and bust of the woman almost face completely forward and are painted against a gray background. Her face is chubby, her chin round and prominent. The support consists of a thin strip of limewood glued to a more recent plank. Recent restoration work removed modern additions on the upper corners, which were intended to give this portrait a rectangular form. It has been returned to its original curved shape.
Portrait of a woman
The woman's face is painted quite graphically. The eyes have a black pupil, brown iris, and highlights for the whites of the eyes. The eyelashes are depicted by lines all around the two eyelids. The thick eyebrows, which meet at the bridge of the nose, are indicated by crosshatching. The nose is round and fleshy, and her forehead is marked by two deep lines. Curls form black rings all around her head, against the gray background. She has small black curls on her forehead, as well as spots of gray that create shadows. Her ears are partly hidden by her hair.
Sober attributes
The white tunic is decorated with purple bands, or clavii, over the shoulders. The thick folds of the cloak over her left shoulder cross over her chest; these folds are indicated by sketchy brushstrokes. The woman is wearing a large necklace; the links are represented by light-colored lines. An oval pendant stands out against her white tunic. She is also wearing earrings consisting of three beads.
An adapted encaustic technique
The portrait was painted without an undercoat. The gray background was applied directly to the wood in a single layer. The paint itself, which has a wax binder (the Greek encaustic technique), is very smooth and applied in thin layers. This technique was usually used by the Egyptians for distemper painting, which uses a water-soluble binder. The painter therefore first applied a red ocher background over the entire surface. He then applied light ocher to the cheeks, the chin and the forehead. Finally, he completed the shading using yellow-ocher hatching, notably on the chin, above the lips, to the right of the nose, and on the forehead. The painter also rendered the brilliance of the bridge and the tip of the nose with white paint. Shadows were represented with black under the lips, under and to the left of the nose, and finally, around the eyes.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: America is changing drastically over coronovirus, health threat and huge economic repercussions and the poor will get it worse If you look at Yvette Carnell's youtube she's not talking about, she is behind
Ok, good she did that one, that counts
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
1) How did they figure out this is the head of a slave?
2) Why is the has claimed to be from a female, while there clearly is a mustache visible?
1) There are many of these balsarium containers some depicting Africans others Greco-latin types I'm not sure how they determined slave but it probably pertains to the all of these balsariums, the ones that depict Africans
Is anyone able to find more information about this picture?
^^ from the above link we get this> _____________________
Bronze head of a Numidian man, bearing traces of dark brown pigment on one eyelid and on the lips. He wears an ancient Egyptian/Kushite short coiled hairstyle. Volubilis, Roman Mauretania. 200BC… More Tried this Pin? Add a photo to show how it went
Add photo Amina Bari Amina Bari saved to MELANO-MEDITERRANEAN Bronze head of a Numidian man, bearing traces of dark brown pigment on one eyelid and on the lips. He wears an ancient Egyptian/Kushite short coiled hairstyle. Volubilis, Roman Mauretania. 200BC. Museum of Rabat, Morocco.
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^^ this is pinterest
It seems like the person who made this caption is assuming it's a Numidian must simultaneously wearing a "Nubian" hairstyle
It reminds me of a post Tukular had I think in this thread. I'm not sure if he deleted it the Bardo herm head, I did a thread on it
"Crown pillar-shaped head of a man from probably Western Sudan, at the Bardo Museum. Unknown origin or dating (Baths of Antoninus, Roman Carthage)"
(this was the wiki caption)
but when he made the post on it he called it a Numidian. Read the page from Blacks in Antiquity: Ethiopians in the Greco-Roman Experience, p 142
Snowden calls it an Ethiopian and he says it in context of similar looking Roman art and the Romans often refer to Ethiopians in their texts
I would not assume that the bronze Balsarium or Bardo herm are Numidians because the items were found in North Africa and resembles the hair styles of Numidians on Trajan's Column or that all the mosaics in Roman Africa represent berbers
We know the Romans had about 20% slaves in many of their settlements, slaves of different ethnicity but I don't know if that bronze balsarium depicts a slave
In my opinion the bronze balsarium above and the black stone herm from Bardo look like Africans but one cannot assume they are North Africans just because the piece was found or made in North Africa and that this hairstyle is particular only to Mauretania
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Can ya imagine a 21st cent intelligent blk person drudging up slave or "ethiopian" explanations by ytes for everything blk in antiquity north of 15 degrees latitude?
My copy of Snowden (1970) bought at Una's Liberation Bookstore in the good ole days has this caption for fig 54
54. Bronze head, Roman -- hair arranged in long rows of tight curls, broad nose, high cheek- bones, subnasal prognathism, thick lips. E. Babelon, "Tete de negre de la collection de Janze au Cabinet des Medailles/" Gazette archaeologique IX (1884) 204-206 and plate 27; E. Babelon and J. Adrien Blanchey, Catalogue des bronzes antiques de la Biblio- theque Nationale (Paris 1895) 443-444, no. 1018
The book got plenty of corkscrew haired bronzes.
The original Image of the Black in Western Art v1 (1976) fig 304
304. Perfume vase: head of a Negro. Roman Period. Bronze H: 15.8 cm Paris Bibliotheque Nationale. "one, a vase, a careful study of a lively face, with a painstaking rendering of the unusual beard,"
same source notation as above
I no longer own Before Color Prejudice so can't reference it.
Snowden doesn't say anything about the figure's nationality.
Doubt anybody along the Nile was meant --(because mustachioed and bearded).
Is anyone able to find more information about this picture?
Um I think the brown is the orignal bronze/brass/copper. You know like the green disease you see covering a penny sometimes. Malachite.
Will add more on the artpiece later after research.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
-- Blacks in Antiquity: Ethiopians in the Greco-Roman Experience by Frank M. Snowden Jr.
Posted by Forty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by Ase:
Nah, you didn't. Dear Yvette?
Probably Black America's closest to best political analysist.
Indeed. Unfortunately there isn't much competition.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Forty2Tribes, you heard Jabari has coronavirus for 2 weeks?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Forty2Tribes:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by Ase:
Nah, you didn't. Dear Yvette?
Probably Black America's closest to best political analysist.
Indeed. Unfortunately there isn't much competition.
It's tough to be a non-negro mentalitied leader in Black America.
Sometimes her prejudice dives into the deep end but I can easily overlook that.
It's time Descendants of American Slaves see themselves as a particular nation of black people.
Some blk immigrants are surely out they mind thinking they're Foundational Black Americans while they eat fufu and stinking fish and'd never touch cornbread hogmaws and chitlins or eating callaloo and saltfish but clueless about collards and catfish.
At s*la we have cou cou and codfish but then we're Pan-Africa Israel I know, I know.
=-=-=
<<meow>>
I had always wanted to post Snowden 1970 fig 85 w/t two previously posted herms side by side. Got no flatbed, hand-scanner dropped and broken long long ago, library one out of commission.
So I did the best I could via internet imgs but then what's a mobile device good for?
Issa phone to me not a tricorder
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^ they are of unknown ethnicity
but I'm wondering what that mohawk looking hairstyle on the left bust, if I'm seeing it right, if that corresponds to some group in Africa or maybe the Egyptian foreigner pantheon. Also noticeably, the left figure has a narrower face than the one on the right, an egghead
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Unknown to you, sure.
Both are "libyans" of Tunis association.
Check ethnic coif descriptions in ethno-geographies of Herodotus Scylax Strabo Diodorus Pliny Ptolemy and even the Byzantines to figger out tribe
Look it up don't make it up
Have fun, let's see what the Cat can drag in. This Dog done ruined the rug already. http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009649;#000046 (64) G. Charles-Picard, "Tunisia" s.v. Archaeology News: Classical Lands, AJA LII (1948) 498 and plate XLVI; G. and C. Charles Picard, Daily Life in Carthage at the Time of Hannibal (New York 1961) 216 and G. Picard, Carthage (new York 1965) plate 2, p.18.
Whoops better tack this here less it disappear like Energy's whole Hebrew thread did. Egyptian foreigner pantheon? What dat?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^ they are of unknown ethnicity
but I'm wondering what that mohawk looking hairstyle on the left bust, if I'm seeing it right, if that corresponds to some group in Africa or maybe the Egyptian foreigner pantheon. Also noticeably, the left figure has a narrower face than the one on the right, an egghead
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
.
Macai (Makai)
____________________________________
THE HISTORY OF HERODOTUS
By Herodotus
Translated into English by G. C. Macaulay
IN TWO VOLUMES
VOL. I
BOOK IV. THE FOURTH BOOK OF THE HISTORIES, CALLED MELPOMENE
174. Above these towards the South Wind in the region of wild beasts dwell the Garamantians, 157 who fly from every man and avoid the company of all; and they neither possess any weapon of war, nor know how to defend themselves against enemies.
175. These dwell above the Nasamonians; and next to the Nasamonians along the sea coast towards the West come the Macai, who shave their hair so as to leave tufts, letting the middle of their hair grow long, but round this on all sides shaving it close to the skin; and for fighting they carry shields made of ostrich skins. Through their land the river Kinyps runs out into the sea, flowing from a hill called the "Hill of the Charites." This Hill of the Charites is overgrown thickly with wood, while the rest of Libya which has been spoken of before is bare of trees; and the distance from the sea to this hill is two hundred furlongs.
176. Next to these Macai are the Gindanes, whose women wear each of them a number of anklets made of the skins of animals, for the following reason, as it is said:—for every man who has commerce with her she binds on an anklet, and the woman who has most is esteemed the best, since she has been loved by the greatest number of men.
______________________________
Excavations at thera - Volumes 5-7 - Page 45books.google.com › books Spyridon Marinatos - 1972 FOUND INSIDE - PAGE 45 Happily, Herodotus says that both these features characterize a Libyan clan inhabiting the shore. Its name is given in Greek as Makai (Maxai). They are the Mashuasha or Mashasha of the Egyptian sources. They were warlike people and ...
_________________________
Pharaohs, Fellahs and Explorers - Page Amelia Ann Blanford Edwards - 1891 PAGE 84 The side-lock was a fashion peculiar to the Libyans and Mashu- asha outside Egypt ; and it is stated by Herodotus that the Maxyans (who are in all probability identical with the Mashuasha of Egyptian inscriptions), allowed their hair to grow in ...
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Sho far sho good ... tilt
Mrroww u did do it in no time n did it right
I'm old and slow As yr teacher u just made me proud now lemme go git loud
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
look at the added part, I added to the end of my previous post
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The Student's Manual of Oriental History: A Manual of the Ancient ..., Volume 2 By François Lenormant, Elisabeth Chevallier 1891
There is, however, much still to be done before the importance of Libyan myths in primitive Grecian mythology is fully understood. The existence and origin of these traditions, for a long time inexplicable, is now easily understood, when the Egyptian monuments have revealed the relationship of the Pelasgic populations to the Libyans, the bonds of alliance and incessant communication in the times of the nineteenth and twentieth Egyptian dynasties between the Achaeans of the Peloponnesus and the Arian tribes of Northern Africa, and the part taken by the Achaeans, Tyrrhenians, Laconians, and Philistines of Crete, in the attacks of the Libyans and Mashuash, or Maxyans, on Egypt. Herodotus mentions the nations beyond Lake Triton as being no longer nomadic. “Westward of the River Triton, and adjoining upon the Auseans, are other Libyans, who till the ground and live in houses; these people are named the Maxyans. They let the hair grow long on the right side of their heads, and shave it close on the left; they besmear their bodies with red paint, and they say that they are descended from the men of Troy. Their country and the remainder of Libya towards the west is far fuller of wild beasts and of wood than the country of the wandering people.” The Maxyans, as we have already said, are the Mashuash of the Egyptian monuments, who were at one time settled much nearer the valley of the Nile. In reading the description given of their costume, it seems to represent those Tamahu, or Japhetic Libyans, depicted on the Pharaonic monuments with a lock of braided hair falling on one side of the head, the rest of which is shaved, and the body tattooed all over. “Next to the Maxyan Libyans are the Zavecians, whose wives drive their chariots to battle.”f The Zavecians are evidently the ancestors of the Zuavas of Algeria, an essentially warlike population, from amongst whom were first raised the French Zouaves, and who have preserved their name for ages. “On them border the Gyzantians, in whose country a vast deal of honey is made by bees; very much more, however, by the skill of men. The people all paint themselves red, and eat monkeys, whereof there is inexhaustible store in the hills.”f These Gyzantians, or Byzantes, were among the tribes in whom the Arian blood was purest; for Scylax describes them as still in his time fair, and remarkably handsome. They formed a numerous nation; a small portion, however, alone was independent, and preserved its former customs. The greater part had joined the Liby-Phoenicians and
[ocr errors] the Carthaginian colonists (whose manners and language they adopted) in the province to which the name of Byzacium had been given. “It seems to me that Libya is not to compare for goodness of soil with either Asia or Europe, except the Cinyps region, which is named after the river that waters it. This piece of land is equal to any country in the world for cereal crops, and is in nothing like the rest of Libya. For the soil here is black, and springs of water abound, so that there is nothing to fear from drought; nor do heavy rains (and it rains in that part of Libya) do any harm when they soak the ground. The returns of the harvest come up to the measure which prevails in Babylonia. The soil is likewise good in the country of the Euesperites, for there the land brings forth in the best years a hundred-fold; but the Cinyps region yields three hundred-fold.”" What Herodotus here says of the extraordinary fertility of certain parts of Africa is confirmed by modern witnesses. The territory of Carthage, now the government of Tunis, was in this respect one of the most favoured regions of the African continent. 6. Herodotus does not mention the nations of the Atlas region, nor those of the districts now called Algeria and Morocco. We gather our information about these countries from the Greek and Roman historians of a later period. We have already quoted the valuable extracts on their original population, made by Sallust from the books of Hiempsal and other Carthaginian authors. The tradition, faithfully recorded by this historian, of the Medes, Persians, and Armenians, who arrived in Western Africa by sea, and who had belonged to the army of Hercules during his expedition into Spain, seemed formerly a fable invented by the Numidians, in order to claim for themselves an illustrious origin; but after the light thrown by the Egyptian inscriptions on the history of Northern Africa, it is impossible to avoid recognising a distorted but well-founded tradition of the establishment of a branch of the great Arian colony in Libya, probably not the one settled on the banks of Lake Triton, and possibly Iranian. Thus is explained the presence, among the Kabyles of Algeria, of fair-haired tribes, who have been there from time immemorial, and who plainly belong to the IndoEuropean stock—tribes among whom it was at one time thought were to be found the descendants of the Vandals. The union of the Arian invaders with the ancient populations of the coast sprung from Phut gave birth to the Mauri, or Maurusii, whose primitive name it has been asserted was Medes, probably an alteration of the word, Amazigh. The alliance of the same invaders with the Getulians beyond the Atlas, produced the Numidians. The Mauri were agriculturists, and of settled habits; the Numidians, as
[ocr errors] their Greek appellation indicates, led a nomadic life. They bore the same relation to each other as do now the two elements into which the population of Algeria and Morocco is divided. On one side the Moors of the towns, the Berbers, Kabyles, or Schillus, who lead in the mountains a settled agricultural life; and on the other the Arab tribes, who wander through the plains as nomadic shepherds.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
But we also know Herodotus is supposed not that accurate, and these other 19th century sources should have some later verification
The seminal Eastern Libyans is not that recent either (1914) By Oric Bates but is relativley more recent and more thorough
but I'm missing it but I don't Macai, Makai or Maxai
The tribe of Sea Peoples known as the Meshwesh rose to prominence during the reign of Ramesses III in Egypt. Some of the first references to this group appear in the Medinet Habu inscriptions, the Harris Papyrus and the Anastasi Papyrus. They are also depicted in several reliefs detailing the battles the Egyptians fought against the Sea Peoples. During the recurring, incessant border wars of the time, the Meshwesh first appeared as kindred tribes of the Tehenu and Temehu, but began to play increasingly substantial roles in the later campaigns. In 1182 BC, Egypt was under threat from an alliance between the Libyans and the Meshwesh -who possibly also coordinated an attack with the Peleset and the Tjekker. Even if it is not certain many Labu (Lybians) who wore the phallus sheath may have been Meshwesh. Following Ramesses III’s victory in the second Libyan war, the Meshwesh were left with enough strength and numbers to become Egypt’s chief opponent for the remainder of the conflict. Another historical record of the Meshwesh comes from inscriptions found at Karnak from Merneptah’s victory in Libya during the fifth year of his reign—when he fought against an army composed of the Libyans, Meshwesh, and other northern sea-borne forces. The Meshwesh are again found in the Classical writings of Herodotus, over a thousand years later. He refers to this group of peoples as the "Maxyes", and offers the most physical description outside of the pictorial reliefs. Herodotus describes their semi-barbaric hairstyle—consisting of shaving one side of the head while leaving the other—and the fact that they paint their bodies and lay claim to Trojan heritage. He goes on to talk about the land from which they came (eastern Libya), all the while making sure to guard himself by saying that he cannot vouch for any of these statements, he is merely passing along what he himself has heard. These are the two major sources for description, both physical and cultural, for the Meshwesh. They are initially identified in Egyptian battle records as having fought alongside the Libyans and their allies, but also recognized as having risen to their own respective seat of power following these skirmishes. The fact that they are again specifically singled out by Herodotus in his Histories serves notice to the fact that they were indeed a significant socio-political entity in the Eastern Mediterranean at this time.
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: stfu, thanks
I don't know what to make of this? It's like receiving lap-dance and a slap in the face at the same time. Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Macae/Makai are mentioned by six classical authors one of whom mentions their coif, a dead ringer for the coastal North African herm.
Anything else is sour grapes not champaigne.
Don't knock your A down to a D because of need to fight against knowledge I lead you to w/some cockamamie wishology like "I'm determined to make the herm unknown or an Egyptian foreign pantheon member." Nobody been doing this for decades, like me, and taught you where to look gonna accept you over all the ancient accounts or believe you trying to originate the art anywhere except where it's from, 2nd cent CE Carthage and the commisioner who wanted to depict the best mercenaries to the east (Macae) and to the west (Numidia) or pretending sidelocks are a center plait.
But gwan knock yourself out. Those really seeking knowledge have learned something they probably had no idea of till today.
Nah no thank me, it's my job --An Authentic Africana-- <<hear me o ancestored Cheikh Anta>>
BTW I always reread posts in a thread. Ppl maybe weren't finished composing it first time I read it. Like me, who's always tweaking for clarity or expanding w/a lil tidbit. This not a game for me. Been about this since a pre-teen when I was corporally punished for demonstrating w/t class geography map that Egypt is located in Africa although the correct test answer was Asia.
<<hey this guy's hell driven by ghosts of colonialism past>>
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: stfu, thanks
I don't know what to make of this? It's like receiving lap-dance and a slap in the face at the same time.
Some like it rough? Postman, ring twice.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
This says Maxyes aka Makai = Meshwesh
The Meshwesh are again found in the Classical writings of Herodotus, over a thousand years later. He refers to this group of peoples as the "Maxyes", and offers the most physical description outside of the pictorial reliefs. Herodotus describes their semi-barbaric hairstyle—consisting of shaving one side of the head while leaving the other—and the fact that they paint their bodies and lay claim to Trojan heritage.
Crown pillar-shaped head of a man, at the Bardo Museum. Unknown origin or dating (herm type) (Baths of Antoninus, Roman Carthage)
Meshwesh
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QB] .
Macai (Makai)
____________________________________
THE HISTORY OF HERODOTUS
By Herodotus
Translated into English by G. C. Macaulay
IN TWO VOLUMES
VOL. I
BOOK IV. THE FOURTH BOOK OF THE HISTORIES, CALLED MELPOMENE
175. These dwell above the Nasamonians; and next to the Nasamonians along the sea coast towards the West come the Macai, who shave their hair so as to leave tufts, letting the middle of their hair grow long, but round this on all sides shaving it close to the skin; and for fighting they carry shields made of ostrich skins.
So this raises two questions:
1) according to the two pictures at top do the correspond, are the Meshwesh corresponding to the Bardo sculpture? - does not seem to
2) Does the Bardo sculpture correspond to the Herodotus description of Maxyes (Makai): the Macai, who shave their hair so as to leave tufts, letting the middle of their hair grow long, but round this on all sides shaving it close to the skin;
the middle of the hair is not long, it's short tufts, although perhaps "long" meant long in relation to shaven. Another translation says "their hair resemble a crest" , yes that seems to fit
It's not competent scholarship to have this one sculpture and no other art and them say it corresponds to a Makai(Maxyes) for sure as described by Herodotus but maybe. It's a descent guess but other than the Greeks and Romans this Macae people is unknown
and let's say late 19th c writers I quoted earlier are wrong Makai are not Meshwesh (Mashuasha)
Meshwesh
^^so could this conform to the Herodtus description. I guess it could if their hair is shaved on the opposite side, both sides in fact but our view is of a limp "mohawk" that is very long so it is flapped over the side of head we are viewing. But it's not convincing, you could never tell the other side is shaved by looking and they have also have sidelock and that is not mentioned in the Herodotus description
Crown pillar-shaped head of a man, at the Bardo Museum. Unknown origin or dating (herm type) (Baths of Antoninus, Roman Carthage)
^^^Let's say that this Bardo sculpture is a Macai (Macae, Makai, Maxyes) a North African as described by Herodotus
and he is just not a Meshwesh, he is some type of North African (kind of Caucasoid-ish featured) and his hair type is not depicted in Egyptian art, that Herodotus is describing some type outside of the Egyptian art we have seen
^^ Does that then prove this entirely different looking head is also some other type of North African or Numidian because it was also at this Roman bathhouse in Tunisa?
Of course not. One would have to call it a guess otherwise not be scholarly, it is assumption. It is unknown, both will remain unknown until the end of time
As we saw with the bronze balsarium, the Romans had an established motif of an African depicted with these types of hanging curls and these as well as small figure sculptures are found in different places and don't necessarily mean they are North African in particular or are native to the region where they were made. Scholars need more verification to identify these things.
As my teacher says:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: You can't tell a person's ethnicity by looking at their faces/heads.
Snowden, Jr .. Blacks in Antiquity. 1970,p 284, notes to 109-110
___________________
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
^ Another fine example of making it up instead of looking it up methodology from a N African history "greenie" out to be contrary to select personalities. Yes we we were all greenhorns in the beginning until buckling down to learn not to win debates.
I still own Bates among others. Camps or Fentress won't help much on this. The UNESCO is better and good luck acquiring volumes of Libya Antiqua, but don't forget the www.temehu.com site which rises far above its ethnocentricism when it came out over a decade ago (my apologies to Nemenser for language we had to use against Nassbe attacking us in our house.
The maps based on 6 classical authors I named above clearly delineate Macae from any rendering of Meshwesh and lists several ethnies with Ma in their first syllable.
Please post Bates' maps and lists to disconfirm that statement.
Liberating oneself from the colonial mentality that Snowden, until his death, adhered to as yte Academia's sole approved responsible 'cullert" voice, one finds the same conclusion of flanking mercenaries adjacently east and west of Carthage as was concluded above.
Not gonna go back and forth on this. If any believe the last voice is the right voice or won't go back and reread the analysis then go ahead.
I'm willing to discuss. I will fail at debate. Debate requires a debate winner, it's a kind of game or sport. This is why we see many attempts, each at odds to the last, jumping from two unsustained non-researched opinions ("unknown"; "Egyptian foreign pantheon" whatever that gobbledeegook supposed to mean) to more and more conflicting guesses overturning those wild stabs in the dark vainly attempting to kill a factual base opinion unaltered since first posted.
Egyptology should be free of Deshret methodology, in my opinion.
Discussion, on the other hand, enriches all participants makes everyone a winner if their goal is adding the knowledge base rather than catty paw swiping just to be contrary or rankle readers. Knowledge: giving it away makes the receiver wealthy w/o impoverishing the giver.
Well, gotta keep the post counter clicking although the Classified Bots are doing that job of making the owner $$$. There's nothing wrong with that as it supplies us with this platform no longer officially attached to Egypt tourism etc.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
You often bring up Neolithic to Bronze discontinuity in Northern Africa.
There's a old article focusing on Classical to Islamic discontinuity you might like.
Think the author's name is Smith
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
there is also a long dry gap on the Arabian peninsula where there are not sure about continuity, if there were people there in that period. The Libyans are mysterious in that they are militarily powerful enough to take on the Egyptians to some extent, be depicted in consistent clothing and hairstyle yet not have the ruins like the Nubians and Kermans. It's not clear if they were to a large extent sea people from the levant, maybe Iberia or if they go back 12,000 years. Also to what extent there were more African looking people in the area and for how long. Few of these details are known and probably never will be. Then there's the coins, the people look Greco-Roman but it is unclear to what extent the average berber at the time looked like that. The Juba I has a very European looking face yet prominent Numidian curls
this is bizarre to me. How to explain it. The beard is of inconsistent texture to the hair . It looks like a European type perhaps with dreaded hair which is possible but you don't see berbers who look "Caucasoid" or semi-Caucasoid dreading their hair in more recent times. Was it just leaders of the period that looked like this? Is it just a contrivance? I don't think we will ever know And what extent did the Romans bring in Africans from other regions into North Africa?
Libyan
^^ this could have been a darker brown skinned, hard to tell the original color, nevertheless it's a straight hair type. Why? Did this type come from across the Mediterranean or was the hair type indigenous? If so did the come 3,000 years ago or 12,000? We will probably never know
wikipedia:
Herodotus referred to the Troglodytae in his Histories as being a people hunted by the Garamantes. He said that the Troglodytae were the swiftest runners of all humans known and that they ate snakes, lizards, and other reptiles. He also stated that their language was unlike any known to him, and sounded like the screeching of bats. Alice Werner (1913) believed (in passing) that this was a clear allusion to the early Khoisan, indigenous inhabitants of Southern Africa, because their languages contain distinctive click sounds.
___________________________
Couldn't be Khosians, Garamantes were in Libya...
Unless it was Khsoian types were in NA at the time, a couple of photos we have seen
but then how reliable is this speculation just based on maybe a click language and Herodotus often being inaccurate?
Were Phoenician Cities laid on top of some other indigenous settlements? Not sure, more speculation. and who exactly were in the Atlas in those times?
yes, some forget it's just a sliver off to the West, but what did the density map look like 3,000 years ago or 10,000? Maybe there are some maps that might show more vegetation but human density would be more speculative
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ase:
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Most UPPER Egyptians that were the ORIGINAL founders looked like Ethiopians and Nubians. No one was arguing ALL Egyptians through all eras looked like them. But that the founders DID.
Dude, sorry I have to interject here.....
Oi. But of course..
quote:Ramses was from Upper Egypt and his family upper Egyptian and not very mixed.
Huh? Upper Egypt had been mixing for thousands of years with both Asiatics and Lower Egyptians by the time he was born. The phenotype becomes less dominant by the New Kingdom so it's certainly possible he didn't have it. It wasn't completely erased, but it lacked it's prior dominance. Oh, and in the case of mass immigration and Asiatic rule, a large portion of Upper Egypt was theirs to control as well. That reconstruction could well be accurate, it's not impossible.
The fact is that during the first and second intermediate eras, waves of Africans from the south came into Egypt as allies and Auxilliaries as testified in their own tombs and artwork. It was always these southern folks who helpe repel foreign invaders. These are hard facts testified in the tombs and writings from Egypt. So how did "Asiatics" and Eurasians counteract all this blood flow from the South? Not to mention the 18th Dynasty border of Egypt stretched way down into Kush. So there was always plenty of Southern blood flooding into the land.
Not to mention large parts of Upper Egypt remained in Southern hands long after the 19th dynasty right up to the Persian period because of the strong ties between Upper Egypt and Kush.
These are hard facts and not speculation.
Here is a late dynasty mummy of Nodjmet,wife of High Priest of Amun. The significance of this is that Amun was strongly affiliated with Kush.
Also note this:
quote: Herihor never really held power outside the environs of Thebes, and Ramesses XI may have outlived him by two years although Jansen-Winkeln argues that Ramesses XI actually died first and only then did Herihor finally assume some form of royal status at Thebes and openly adopted royal titles—but only in a "half-hearted" manner according to Arno Egberts who has adopted Jansen-Winkeln's views here.[7] Herihor's usurpation of royal privileges is observed "in the decoration of the court of the Khonsu temple" but his royal datelines "betray nothing of the royal status he enjoyed according to the contemporary scenes and inscriptions of the court of the Khonsu temple."[7] While both Herihor and his wife Nodjmet were given royal cartouches in inscriptions on their funerary equipment, their 'kingship' was limited to a few relatively restricted areas of Thebes whereas Ramesses XI's name was still recorded in official administrative documents throughout the country.[8] During the Wehem Mesut era, the Theban high priest—Herihor—and Ramesses XI quietly agreed to accept the new political situation where the High Priest was unofficially as powerful as Pharaoh. The report of Wenamun (also known as Wen-Amon) was made in Year 5 of Herihor and Herihor is mentioned in several Year 5 and Year 6 mummy linen graffitos.
The de facto split between Ramesses XI and his 21st Dynasty successors with the High Priests of Amun at Thebes (referred to in Ancient Egyptian as Wehem Mesut or 'Renaissance') resulted in the unofficial political division of Egypt between Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt, with the kings ruling Lower Egypt from Tanis. This division did not come to a complete end until the accession of the Libyan Dynasty 22 king Shoshenq I in 943 BC. Shoshenq was able to appoint his son Iuput to be the new High Priest of Amun at Thebes, thus exercising authority over all of ancient Egypt.
..... Traditional Ethiopian kinglists name Herihor, and his successors through Pinudjem II, among the rulers of Saba in the Semitic Agazyan Ethiopian dynasty,[14] and he is considered to have ruled Ethiopia for 16 years in addition to being de facto ruler in Egypt. According to Ethiopian historian Tekletsadiq Mekuria, Herihor's father was the former High Priest Amenhotep, and his mother was a daughter of Ramesses IV.
Also note the following (beginning of 3rd intermediate period):
quote: Sometime during the reign of Ramesses XI, Pinehesy succeeded in temporarily removing the Theban High Priest of Amun, Amenhotep from office. This action is often referred to as "the war against the High Priest" or "the suppression of the High Priest Amenhotep". However, in a very detailed study, Kim Ridealgh has shown that the traditional translation "suppression" of the Egyptian term "thj" is misleading, since it suggests that Amenhotep was somehow besieged and/or robbed of his freedom. The term rather denotes a more general act of aggression.[5] Therefore, a more neutral translation like "transgression against the High Priest" is to be preferred.
Although this "transgression against the High Priest of Amun" used to be dated quite early in the reign (prior to year 9 of the reign, on the basis of Pap. B.M. 10053),[6] recently the communis opinio has changed to the view that it took place only shortly before the start of the Whm Mswt or Renaissance, an era which was inaugurated in regnal Year 19, probably to stress the return of normal conditions following the coup of Pinehesy.
.... Unfortunately, due to the very limited nature of the sources, the exact relationships between the three main protagonists, Piankh, Pinehesy and Ramesses XI remain far from clear. Some scholars believe that the Nubian campaign was part of an ongoing power struggle between the High Priest of Amun and the Viceroy of Kush[15] However, it is equally possible that Piankh came to the rescue of Pinehesy against some common enemy. In fact, neither the aim of the expedition nor its outcome are beyond doubt. It has also been argued that shortly afterwards Piankh disappeared off the stage with the Viceroy Pinehesy being reinvested in his former position as Viceroy, which would only be possible with the consent of Ramesses XI, either willingly or not.[16]
It seems that Pinehesy died of old age while still in control of Lower Nubia.[17] He was buried in Aniba, where a tomb inscribed with his name was discovered.
quote: [QUOTE] The point being that if there was any mixture it was between Upper Egyptians and people further south.
That is wishful thinking. We know from the first dynasty Upper Egyptians had no reservations taking northern wives. Neithotep's name would suggest she came from the Delta, as Neith's cult primarily resided there. In the sparsely populated Abusir el-Meleq, two skeletal types lived there, one associated with Upper Egypt, and the other with Lower Egypt. Years of contact plus a large scale migration from Canaan (following increased aridity of the Sahara at about 2,000 B.C) could very EASILY explain that reconstruction if true. I've no pony in the discussion of what Ramses is.So whatever.
quote: Sure some mixture did occur from elsewhere but as mentioned before the power base and origin of Egyptian culture was always in the South and derived from Southern populations.
Always? No. But the cultural origin developed there.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
More "Herm Twins" imgs from Snowden's Before Colour Prejudice.
Note the negro profile of the corkscrewed Numidian? Where?
Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
Just did the US Census...
This is what is wrong... most modern Egyptians do not have "white" phenotype... yet here we are...
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^ yes, "white" and "black" should not be on the census
there's no "yellow' or "red"
none of these colors should be on the census.
Everyone else is by nationality background only except Europeans and Africans. Many other counties don't have these skin color codes in their census
I think "Black and proud" was a mistake because despite the all the racist history in the U.S. I think many people of African descent like being called a color because the people in power call themselves a color while Asians, Mexicans and others don't have that perceived "privilege", they go by "foreign" names
However if you take away the skin color system attaching the word "American" resolves the issue
African American European American Native American Arab American Egyptian American Asian American
etc. ^^ all consistent "Black" and "white" should be deleted from the census but we think color is power "white" power, "black power" , melanated this and that The color focus needs to end
Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
^^^
It is about power... Europeans & European Americans both in Government/Educational Institutions/Military seeks to expand power and influence by expanding "whiteness" and limiting "blackness"
Notice..
White is not = to all "Eurasians"
Indians ( India) are Caucasions but not white..
Hilarious
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: ^^^
It is about power... Europeans & European Americans both in Government/Educational Institutions/Military seeks to expand power and influence by expanding "whiteness" and limiting "blackness"
Notice..
White is not = to all "Eurasians"
one problem is identity based on "white"
or "black" That is an ideological problem
we should not play into that by agreeing to the terms
Nationalism is another problem
Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
Euro institutions are now playing the same game with DNA...
Declaring some DNA Haplogroups Eurasians.. Same game different day
In his monumental two-volume study, The Invention of the White Race (Revised edition, 2012), as early as in the 1960s Theodore W Allen had documented the manner in which the ruling elite in the United States had devised the category of "white people" by way of economic exploitation of the African slaves and the social control of the emerging polities. More recently, in her Birth of a White Nation: The Invention of White People and Its Relevance Today (2013), Jacqueline Battalora has offered an examination of the enduring issue of race in the US tracing it back to when "white people" were invented through legislations and enactment of laws.
The problem with this scholarly body of literature is not only the fact that its erudite message does not get through the thick skulls of illiterate racists like Donald Trump's white supremacist supporters. The problem is that such archaeology of hatred does not erase the fact that a massive body of humanity has suffered precisely because they have been branded as "black" or "red," or "yellow" or "brown". Racially constituted to divide and rule, those colourful delusions have become social facts.
Central to all such socially constructed delusions are the relations of power they entail and sustain - whether colour-coded, classed, racialised, or gendered. "One is not born, but rather becomes a woman", Simone de Beauvoir declared in her path-breaking book The Second Sex (1949). In later, critical expansion of this idea, scholars like Judith Butler have shown how varied social practices are definitive to the social constitution of gender. The same is true about race or ethnicity. One is not born, we may extend de Beauvoir's insight, but rather becomes white, or black, etc
Although many today consider race to be an immutable characteristic, that wasn’t always the case. Before the 17th century, whiteness didn’t even exist as a racial category. It emerged for the worst of reasons: slave-owning politicians invented “whiteness” as part of a political strategy intended to restrict the voting rights of free black men. Lawmakers subsequently refined “whiteness” by developing a “one-drop rule” — the idea that one drop of African blood would make a person “black.” In other words, race isn’t just connected to voter suppression; black voter suppression created whiteness.
The same people who make the census are the same people who classified all of MENA as white to avoid having to admit they worship a man that was probably not white every Sunday. If people who look black come from MENA thinking the census is how they'll really experience life, heaven be with them.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: Just did the US Census...
This is what is wrong... most modern Egyptians do not have "white" phenotype... yet here we are... Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: ^^^
It is about power... Europeans & European Americans both in Government/Educational Institutions/Military seeks to expand power and influence by expanding "whiteness" and limiting "blackness"
Notice..
White is not = to all "Eurasians"
Indians ( India) are Caucasions but not white..
Hilarious
.
Why black = African American but white ≠ European American
How come Chinese instead of Yellow American?
Why African nations lumped up as jus' all you n....s when Chinese Filipino AsianIndian Vietnamese each get they own separate little boxes no dashAmerican attached?
duh uh
Hello to the new census cats, same as the old census cats, we all been fooled again!
African American means African who belongs to America or dey y man cuzn countries dat colonised em.
Keep staying up on the dialectics ie read between the lines ie the loudly shouted unwritten assumption.
Posted by Forty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Forty2Tribes, you heard Jabari has coronavirus for 2 weeks?
Yep. Just heard about it.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Why black = African American but white ≠ European American
How come Chinese instead of Yellow American?
Chinese people are never going for yellow American. There is no justification for recording skin and to do so places undue significance on it and other countries don't do it.
West African descent specify nationalities__________________
South African descent specify nationalities__________________
East African descent specify nationalities__________________
South African descent specify nationalities__________________
_______________________________________________
None of this is going to be perfect and you might come up with a better breakdown
- but a geographic approach is better than adding in skin color at the same time
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
YES! Colour ID is stupid. Tack hyphenAmerican onto all other cats or dead it. HyphenAmerican is tacked onto Blx to remind them they are owned by America.
NO! ADOS/FBA are not African descent [free will] immigrants.
ADOS/FBA are not POC (People Of Choice, colour is meaningless re this subject).
ADOS/FBA en masse did not come to the USA by choice.
All others in the dis-United States of America chose to come and kept their languages faiths and names as in the nations they left.
.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Why black = African American but white ≠ European American
How come Chinese instead of Yellow American?
Chinese people are never going for yellow American. There is no justification for recording skin and to do so places undue significance on it and other countries don't do it.
One astute poster already pointed to need of a yte Jesus allows for modern Levantines to be yte.
Also the reason why genomics reports supporting even W Afr antecedents in pre-Babylonian exile Jewry by Price, Moorjani, are ignored. http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5076/ Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] NO! ADOS/FBA are not African descent immigrants.
ADOS/FBA are not POC (People Of Choice, colour is meaningless)
ADOS/FBA en masse did not come to the USA by choice.
All others in the dis-United States of America chose to come and kept their languages faiths and names as in the nations they left.
.
these are the type of categories I'm talking about >>
Now do something semi-intelligent like perusing the given links instead flinging back another thoughtless kneejerk reaction. Git busy.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I know what you're talking about There was no need to quote me in your post as if you took time to mentally digest it for its meaning.
yes there was a need because you said "no' in reply to my post
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] NO! ADOS/FBA are not African descent immigrants.
___________________________________
So if,
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tukuler: YES! Colour ID is stupid.
then you would have to describe how that would look on a census not just in conversation
__________________________
perhaps like this or
Pick one or more category
African descendant of slaves specify nationalities_________________
I don't have to do anything you tell me to do, I am superior to you. Save that kinda do this do that ordering around talk for those who fear and love you.
Now do something semi-intelligent like perusing the given links instead flinging back another thoughtless kneejerk reaction. Git busy.
Meanwhile
Tennis anyone?
Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: YES! Colour ID is stupid. Tack hyphenAmerican onto all other cats or dead it. HyphenAmerican is tacked onto Blx to remind them they are owned by America.
ADOS/FBA are not POC (People Of Choice, colour is meaningless re this subject).
ADOS/FBA en masse did not come to the USA by choice.
All others in the dis-United States of America chose to come and kept their languages faiths and names as in the nations they left.
.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Why black = African American but white ≠ European American
How come Chinese instead of Yellow American?
Chinese people are never going for yellow American. There is no justification for recording skin and to do so places undue significance on it and other countries don't do it.
One astute poster already pointed to need of a yte Jesus allows for modern Levantines to be yte.
Also the reason why genomics reports supporting even W Afr antecedents in pre-Babylonian exile Jewry by Price, Moorjani, are ignored. http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5076/
Indians suing to be yte and lost is again hilarious...
Wanna know what Corona is teaching yte amerikkka? That most of their prominent young doctors are Indian American...yes yte men are being replaced
Many ADOS/FBA are genetically more yte than Lebanese lol.. the Lebanese who I am sure have 2.4% sub saharan on average..but the one drop only applies to ADOS/FBA
I have a good friend who is Half Cypriot & Half Scottish.. even she has ancient roots on Cyprus and has 2% Nigerian on her 23 & Me test.. lol..
America's biggest failure is a moment of cutting their noses off to spite their face.. after the Spanish American war.. failing to annex Cuba because the population was to miscegentated...they couldn't trust that yte Cubanos where actually "yte"
LOL stupid!!
West African descent is a stupid category for Ados/FBA
They have pan African genetic inheritance... a lot of the trace N African is being hidden as Italian and Iberian...many ADOS/FBA have East African roots..
And don't get me started on Most Dominican's being Black.. & Puerto Ricans...and Some Cubans..
But they are not under the "black" category..
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: Just did the US Census...
This is what is wrong... most modern Egyptians do not have "white" phenotype... yet here we are...
The funniest part about this census is that a large part is actually not even white. It's only on paper, but in reality they are not. This is why rightwing whites like Doxie are upset.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Yatunde says:
America's biggest failure is a moment of cutting their noses off to spite their face.. after the Spanish American war.. failing to annex Cuba because the population was to miscegentated...they couldn't trust that yte Cubanos where actually "yte" LOL stupid!!
How could it be a "failure" for America to not annex Cuba? It is actually a blessing that America did not annex Cuba because that would have added a giant boost to the slaveocracy, and the southern slave regime. The main opposition against CUba's annexation was not primarily miscegnation, but the fact that the addition of Cuba would give the southern slavocrat bloc more influence on the national level. If Cuba was admitted to the Union as a single state, the island would have sent two senators and up to nine representatives to Washington. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostend_Manifesto
The expansion of the slave regime would have meant continued misery for blacks, and a prolongation of the brutal slave trade that killed millions. It is no surprise that one of the last countries to abolish slavery in the Americas was "miscegnated" Cuba in 1886.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Cardi B's Parents Mother is Trinidadian/Spanish Father , Dominican
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: "debunked" wtf did you debunk ?? posting old and debunked sources won't help you it's not a coincidence if all their sources are from the XXth century or before 2005...
I debunked your claims, idiot! Htf are the sources I posted "debunked", when you didn't even bother addressing them?! LOL Just because a source is old does not mean it is outdated or "debunked" as you say. Apparently you don't know how science works. It doesn't matter how old a source is as long as the findings are still valid. That is why research is replicated to either validate or refute the older sources yet you fail to post anything that refuted my old sources.
Here is an example of what I'm saying. The craniometric graph below comes from Keita's 1988 study.
^ Note how close late predynastic Naqada clusters close to Nubian Kerma followed by Abydos while the late dynastic E series clusters close to the Maghreb which in turn is closest to the Levantine Lachish.
Here is another craniometric graph this time by Brothwell in a 2016 study.
^ Again note how close the Naqada sample is to Kerma and other Nubian samples. Which again confirms the Egyptians close affinities to Nubians first and foremost.
Here are more studies this time showing non-metric traits as much better indicators of genetic relationships and they all show Egyptians grouping with Nubians.
So tell me again how any of the old sources including the melanin study from Germany is debunked?
quote:Meanwhile they couldn't refute all the dna results I posted , they couldn't refute the ancient depictions I posted , they couldn't refute the genetic and anthropological data I posted ...
You posted genetic studies but failed to properly convey what they mean. You even deny the fact that E1b1b originated in Sub-Saharan Africa as that is where it has its highest diversity and concentration NOT Eurasia, and all the ancient depictions you posted are cherry-picked portraits either unpainted or have completely lost their paint with the narrowest noses and thinnest lips in an attempt to white-wash while all the portraits we post show otherwise. You're anthropological data is also laughable as all you post is craniometric data showing Egyptians had narrow noses similar to Europeans who have narrow noses.
Meanwhile what about anthropological data about skeletal limb proportions like these?
"..sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into southern Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans."--Barry Kemp, Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation (2005)
Harris and Wente note the prevalence of dental prognathism among Nubians. Often this is combined with malocclusion. Similar incidence can be found in other African peoples. For example, one study found that a sample taken from the Kenya showed 61.3% of Maasai had diastema; 84% of Kikuyu had overbite and 99% had overjet; and 24% of Kalenjin had anterior open bite. Although these dental traits can often be acquired through habits like thumb-sucking, as noted by Harris and Wente, the high frequency in the royal mummies indicates a genetic origin as found in Africans... The late XVII Dynasty and XVIII Dynasty royal mummies display the strongest Nubian affinities. In terms of maxillary protrusion as measured by SNA, the mean value for these Pharaohs is 84.21 comparable to that of African Americans...--P. K. Manansala 2006 on James Harris & Edward Wente, X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980)
quote:Just a bunch of new world blacks with a heavy inferiority complex who try to claim every non-black civilizations they can ....pathetic They only see the world through their american dichotomical view.
Ad-hominem nonsense. Not all of us here are even blacks or from America. How about addressing the facts.
quote:No sorry you bantus are not related to horners let alone north africans.
So first, we're American blacks but now we are Bantus! Okay.
Meanwhile you never bothered explaining how West Africans are as close to Horners as North Africans, Middle-Easterners, and Europeans and how all are closer to Bantu speaking Biaka and Mbuti Pygmies than Southern African Khoisan.
quote:Egypt was not a black or white civilization. It was a northafrican/middle eastern civilization that had no link with west,central,east and south Africa. The modern descendents of AEs are modern egyptians. Period. You have not a single evidence that they are genetically non-indigenous so your rhetorical arguments won't work with me.
First of all 'black' and 'white' are color labels while North Africa and the Middle East are geographic labels. Apparently you don't know that there are black people in both regions just as there are white people! And of course modern Egyptians are the descendants of ancient Egyptians nobody said otherwise. We've shown you tons of pictures of modern day [black] Baladi (non-Arab indigenous) Egyptians. But being descended does not necessarily mean same according to the genetic findings of the Schuenemann et. al 2017 study published in Nature.
^ Assuming the late period mummies they sampled were truly indigenous (which I doubt they were) they don't have Sub-Saharan alleles whereas modern Egyptians do. Yet interestingly, modern Algerians and Tunisians possess even higher Sub-Saharan alleles than modern Egyptians do so where does that leave your claims??! LOL
quote:I only talk here because of quarantine lol you're just clowns to me none of you debunked me and none of you convinced me.
Says the clown who has been debunked over a dozen times. They say when people are shut in the crazies show themselves and you are a perfect example.
quote:Admin: ENOUGH!
Indeed enough of your insanity.
Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Yatunde says:
America's biggest failure is a moment of cutting their noses off to spite their face.. after the Spanish American war.. failing to annex Cuba because the population was to miscegentated...they couldn't trust that yte Cubanos where actually "yte" LOL stupid!!
How could it be a "failure" for America to not annex Cuba? It is actually a blessing that America did not annex Cuba because that would have added a giant boost to the slaveocracy, and the southern slave regime. The main opposition against CUba's annexation was not primarily miscegnation, but the fact that the addition of Cuba would give the southern slavocrat bloc more influence on the national level. If Cuba was admitted to the Union as a single state, the island would have sent two senators and up to nine representatives to Washington. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostend_Manifesto
The expansion of the slave regime would have meant continued misery for blacks, and a prolongation of the brutal slave trade that killed millions. It is no surprise that one of the last countries to abolish slavery in the Americas was "miscegnated" Cuba in 1886.
Dude.. the Civil War ended in 1865... the south and slavery was already defeated..
In order to prevent the possibility of US annexation of Cuba, Congress passed the Teller Amendment, which proclaimed that the United States would help the Cuban people gain their freedom from Spain but would not annex the island after victory Under the Treaty of Paris, Cuba became a U.S. protectorate from 1898–1902; the U.S. gained a position of economic and political dominance over the island, which persisted after it became formally independent in 1902. Following the Cuban Revolution of 1959, bilateral relations deteriorated substantially.
Economically and strategically it was a dumb move. 90 miles south of Florida....
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Self-entitled smugness to ask anyone this in the first place, especially using the term SLAVES instead of ENSLAVED.
Still waiting for the answer you will never ever give.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Whatever else, and no matter how little, Cardi B is one proud of Afr descent DR. Who else in HipHop has applied for dual citizenship w/an African nation?
Spanish kidnapped Afrs i/t western hemisphere have worshipped African deities in syncretism w/American Gods and European saints and Jesus
There was a similar thread on ES w/pics like below until you-know-who deleted it quietly behind the scenes w/no reprimand from mgmnt for altering the permanent ES archive destroying the work put into composing its posts.
One of the three Original Last Poets was a PR https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWhNe1ju1HI Now defunct, Pan-Africanism was taken up back then by quite a few PRs, at least in NY Philly Chi-Town etc.
The last PR/AA combined music effort in the vein of Harlem River Drive was MAW's Nuyorican Soul Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
America's biggest failure is a moment of cutting their noses off to spite their face.. after the Spanish American war.. failing to annex Cuba because the population was to miscegentated...they couldn't trust that yte Cubanos where actually "yte" LOL stupid!!
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Dude.. the Civil War ended in 1865... the south and slavery was already defeated..
.
Really? Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
America's biggest failure is a moment of cutting their noses off to spite their face.. after the Spanish American war.. failing to annex Cuba because the population was to miscegentated...they couldn't trust that yte Cubanos where actually "yte" LOL stupid!!
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Dude.. the Civil War ended in 1865... the south and slavery was already defeated..
.
Really?
What is the question?
White people failed to annex a huge island 90 miles south of mainland America.
It was a dumb move.. economically and strategically.
Manifest Destiny and US Imperialism
Hawaii, Guam, Philippines , Puerto Rico Yes.. but Cuba no?
US racism made it an inept Imperialist power, proven later by Russia's influence on Cuban politics.
Honestly, I am glad the US is so stupid.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
During full blown chattel slavery Blacks were a permanent underclass.
Right now Blacks are a permanent underclass.
<< When I write Blacks I mean the foundational Black American community
I do not mean any and all black skinned ppl & their descendants all around the world blx.
Americans adapted Black as their ethnic identity after cycling thru Negro Coloured and African identities.
They rejected African identity in fear of various re-colonization --deportation-- schemes. >
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
They rejected African identity in fear of various re-colonization --deportation-- schemes. >
I don't think so
Noble Drew Ali and Fard Muhammad were identifying with Islam and Garvey had a back to Africa movement
"black" is merely English for "negro" a long established color term applied by Europeans
"African American" was only popularized in the 1980s by Jesse Jackson (although it goes back further) but it has only stuck somewhat, "black" is still the much more popular word
I think what should happen first is "white" should constantly questioned and de-legitimized That is the main problem, color terms to be identity but it can't be done consistently without also de-legitimizing "black"
Africans did not step off the slave ships and represent themselves by a color, that concept come from Europeans. It was an easy visual thing to do but disrespected nationality
Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
I have a question: Do non-metric traits give just as good an idea of how the Egyptian phenotype was like, than use of metric traits? When would it be more appropriate to rely on metric traits?
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: Dude.. the Civil War ended in 1865... the south and slavery was already defeated..
In order to prevent the possibility of US annexation of Cuba, Congress passed the Teller Amendment, which proclaimed that the United States would help the Cuban people gain their freedom from Spain but would not annex the island after victory Under the Treaty of Paris, Cuba became a U.S. protectorate from 1898–1902; the U.S. gained a position of economic and political dominance over the island, which persisted after it became formally independent in 1902. Following the Cuban Revolution of 1959, bilateral relations deteriorated substantially.
Economically and strategically it was a dumb move. 90 miles south of Florida....
A dumb move? Not really. Before the start of the Civil War in 1854, as shown by the linked Ostend Manifesto, there was talk of annexing Cuba. There was talk about miscengation by a few, but the main driver hampering annexation was northeners fearing that the Southern slavocracy would grow in dominance and influence. It was actually a SMART move to NOT annex Cuba, and good for blacks in that it meant less of the slave trade.
Under the Treaty of Paris, Cuba became a U.S. protectorate from 1898–1902; the U.S. gained a position of economic and political dominance over the island, which persisted after it became formally independent in 1902. Following the Cuban Revolution of 1959, bilateral relations deteriorated substantially.
Well, let's fast forward to after the US Civil War. Fact is that the US gained much of what it wanted without the messy task of getting entangled in local politics and fights. US capital dominated the economy, controlling most sugar and ore production for example, - reaping the profits- and all this without a long expensive military occupation. It wasn’t dumb at all but a SMART setup- you get the bulk of what you want- economic dominance and profits, while the locals handle the messy local details and keep the natives quiet. Roman empire sometimes ran the same playbook by cultivating client kings. Why dispatch the legions for another long draining border war against raiding nomads for example, when clients in place can get the job done so much more cheaply and keep the tribute flowing to Rome? Smart, not dumb.
White people failed to annex a huge island 90 miles south of mainland America. It was a dumb move.. economically and strategically.
Manifest Destiny and US Imperialism Hawaii, Guam, Philippines , Puerto Rico Yes.. but Cuba no?
US racism made it an inept Imperialist power, proven later by Russia's influence on Cuban politics.
Honestly, I am glad the US is so stupid
Not dumb at all but smart economy of force. The US already dominated the Caribbean. Once it had the essentials- like the base at Guantanamo, why get into messy local fights when local clients, compradors and collaborators could keep the natives quiet much more efficiently, while guaranteeing cheap land and labor and low taxes and tariffs for US corporations? Hell that ain't dumb, that's smart management. Guam and the Philippines were needed to give the US a foothold in Asian waters, but in the Caribbean such a foothold was already assured. In the Philippines "smart" white people did not cut a deal with local clients and compradors, but opted for total hegemony, leading to a messy war of conquest (body count: about 6000 US dead, 2800 wounded, 20,000 Philippine patriot fighters dead, and some 100,000-250,000 Filipino civilians dead).
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Americans adapted Black as their ethnic identity after cycling thru * pre 1968 Negro * ~ 1880s and onward Coloured and * 18th - 19th cent African identities.
They rejected African identity in fear of various re-colonization --deportation-- schemes.
.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Blab blab woof woof
.
Self-entitled smugness to ask anyone this in the first place, especially using the term SLAVES instead of ENSLAVED.
Still waiting for the answer you will never ever give, scaredy cat.
One day you will answer for the sabotage of the ES archive, even if I have to buy this site to see to it.
yes if ADOS was going to be on the census it might be in the form of this question
"were your ancestors enslaved in America?"
or
"are you a Descendants Of a Slaves in America?"
________________________
but does the ADOS movement say that should be on the census?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Cheap saboteur trick, days later editing and re-contexting a personal question directed at me, as if it were something other than it meant when you first posted it.
Self-entitled smugness to ask anyone this in the first place, especially using the term SLAVES instead of ENSLAVED.
Still waiting for the answer you will never ever give, deep cover kitty.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ase: I have a question: Do non-metric traits give just as good an idea of how the Egyptian phenotype was like, than use of metric traits? When would it be more appropriate to rely on metric traits?
.
Personally I prefer non-metric as better. Metric is susceptible to statistical 'manipulations'; for instance formulae, measurer's errors, etc. Non-metric: the examined trait either exists or doesn't.
But note presumed racial stereotype conformity is practiced nonetheless. Traits should just be given for individual(s) within defined geo ethnic sub-populations.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Cheap saboteur trick, days later editing and re-contexting a personal question directed at me,
you took it the wrong way, I meant it as a census question, not about you I didn't edit anything
this is how I said it
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
I did not use the word immigrant, these categories indicate the person's ethnic background you are suggesting an additional category >
______________
Were your ancestors slaves in America? ______________
.
I put the lines there like the other questions and said you are suggesting that that should be a question
It would have been different if I had said "so were your ancestors slaves in America?"
I explicitly said "additional category"
I didn't ask that of you but so what if I did, you were talking about ADOS anyway
Carnel or Moore would have said yes. But I'm not going to ask, because I don't want to get on a personal level
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Self-entitled smugness to ask anyone this in the first place, especially using the term SLAVES instead of ENSLAVED.
I was talking about the census and you brought up ADOS and I said most AA's probably wouldn't like American Descendants of Slaves to be an option on the census. And here's the proof, you think it was directed at you and you didn't like it
If it was on a census it would have to explained not just abbreviated with a wink
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Yeah, that's why it took days for a comeback from you.
Too hot? On Deshret you simply delete (even threads archived long ago --5th column sabotage). On Egyptology, where you can only act like you run the show, you have to take a powder to regroup. You ain't foolin nobody but y-o-u .
"so what if I did" Answer it yourself, that's so what. Waiting and waiting since Apr 3, 3 days later still no answer just your typical patented 'Slipology' filibustering.
I make no claim on reparations from the US gov. I support the foundational Black American exclusive right to reparations, as is well known to my readership. Offspring from FBA mothers? It's their decision if they wanna fight for a FBA ID card. To me 3 out of four FBA grandparents would be enough. Would 4/4 FBAs agree? Who knows? FBAs on ES, speak up and tell us, pls.
Impossible to tell how many nowaday continental immigrants descend from "enslaved before 1776" to "post Jim Crow I" diasporans who made it back to the continent in that interim.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
It took you 3 days to be clearer that the particular reason you were offended is you thought I was asking you that personally
when I was talking about the census and said " you are suggesting an additional category>"
don't blame me for you comprehension issues and your failure to be clear ______________________________
This could be a question on the census
"Are you a descendants of a slave/s in America?"
Many AA's would probably be outraged and not like to be reminded for the sake of being reminded.
However if it was done where people of the ADOS movement explained it could be leverage for reparations in the future some might go for it.
It wouldn't be at an actionable stage at that point, people would give an answer without proof but people in the reparations movement might see it as a first step a recognition that it was a valid question to ask based on real history.
You're the one who brought up ADOS, I hadn't been talking about it
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
ignoring your expected inescapable vacuous and vapid troll reflex denial attempt at table turning -- i have no 2-3 day gap in posting to this thread in flight from any too hot questioning, YOU DO
As a permanent underclass and as movie watchers FBAs know and are constantly reminded of slavery ad nausea.
Americans who are descendants of the former/still enslaved have many self-identies. Ones like M. Freeman or W. Goldberg consider themselves no kind of African. Some with complexions from peanut butter to beige consider themselves no kinda black. Some, of a rare breed, consider themselves just African, no other word(s) attached. Some consider themselves American period no other word(s) attached. Others solely identify by religio-ethnicity. All this in place of former tribal or national identities that were punished, tortured, maimed, and murdered away from their centuries ago ancestral languages faiths and names.
Unfortunately the only descriptor fitting them all is the pejorative Tigger.
In a few days Jews of Hebrew ancestry will not only be reminded but celebrate the imagining that they were enslaved in Ta wi. Wow! What other ppl claim their national identity began in slavery?
No nationality can deny enslavement at some point in history.
Only Slavs and certain Afrikans always have it up in their face all the time. Only certain African blx are still in slavery today. The other Afrikan blx don't care and so ... Were your ancestors enslaved in the USA? Just answer the question.
Many pre-Ellis Island era Irish and Germans were. Some whites even tanned other whites and thus dismissed their own ppl into the ranks of the enslaved.
Capital is capital. Better born a child in fieldwork than early "more sir" industrial England? yes/no
<< Africa w/a "k", to mean continentals plus diasporans >>
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Latin American populations serve as an excellent example of admxiture. There are are many so-called 'white' Hispanics who are called so because of their white appearance but still have African or Amerindian ancestry.
Take Puerto-Ricans for example.
https://www.livescience.com/37624-mapping-puerto-rican-heritage.html One of these earlier studies, published in PLOS ONE in 2011, found that on average Puerto Ricans' ancestry is 15 percent American Indian (known as Taino), 21 percent African and nearly 64 percent European. But this ratio varies across the island, with more European background on the west side of the island and more African on the east side.
This explains certain attributes of Puerto Ricans
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^ fake
Posted by Askia_The_Great (Member # 22000) on :
Yea... Not sure what ADOS, Afro-Latinos or Hip Hop has to do with the genetic structure of modern North Africans?
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Cardi B's Parents Mother is Trinidadian/Spanish Father , Dominican
Can't they just surprise her on a show, with a DNA-test. Where her proximity relatedness to (West) Africans will exposed.
Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
The real deal.. no blue eyed berber pic spam..
Moroccan girls 🇲🇦❤️ (Glow Up Edition) 10,699 views•May 5, 2020
Great video....but the Blue eyed/Blond Berbers and SSA are all united by the Pn2 bridge, even the leuko Berber from Nassa's DNA tests shows they're majority African and match the features of the Tamahu and Tenahu of Km.t Temple walls.
The girl in one of the videos I posted talked about her naturally curly hair like the women in the video...
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: there is also a long dry gap on the Arabian peninsula where there are not sure about continuity, if there were people there in that period. The Libyans are mysterious in that they are militarily powerful enough to take on the Egyptians to some extent, be depicted in consistent clothing and hairstyle yet not have the ruins like the Nubians and Kermans. It's not clear if they were to a large extent sea people from the levant, maybe Iberia or if they go back 12,000 years. Also to what extent there were more African looking people in the area and for how long. Few of these details are known and probably never will be. Then there's the coins, the people look Greco-Roman but it is unclear to what extent the average berber at the time looked like that. The Juba I has a very European looking face yet prominent Numidian curls
this is bizarre to me. How to explain it. The beard is of inconsistent texture to the hair . It looks like a European type perhaps with dreaded hair which is possible but you don't see berbers who look "Caucasoid" or semi-Caucasoid dreading their hair in more recent times. Was it just leaders of the period that looked like this? Is it just a contrivance? I don't think we will ever know And what extent did the Romans bring in Africans from other regions into North Africa?
Libyan
^^ this could have been a darker brown skinned, hard to tell the original color, nevertheless it's a straight hair type. Why? Did this type come from across the Mediterranean or was the hair type indigenous? If so did the come 3,000 years ago or 12,000? We will probably never know
wikipedia:
Herodotus referred to the Troglodytae in his Histories as being a people hunted by the Garamantes. He said that the Troglodytae were the swiftest runners of all humans known and that they ate snakes, lizards, and other reptiles. He also stated that their language was unlike any known to him, and sounded like the screeching of bats. Alice Werner (1913) believed (in passing) that this was a clear allusion to the early Khoisan, indigenous inhabitants of Southern Africa, because their languages contain distinctive click sounds.
___________________________
Couldn't be Khosians, Garamantes were in Libya...
Unless it was Khsoian types were in NA at the time, a couple of photos we have seen
but then how reliable is this speculation just based on maybe a click language and Herodotus often being inaccurate?
Were Phoenician Cities laid on top of some other indigenous settlements? Not sure, more speculation. and who exactly were in the Atlas in those times?
yes, some forget it's just a sliver off to the West, but what did the density map look like 3,000 years ago or 10,000? Maybe there are some maps that might show more vegetation but human density would be more speculative
For the ones you described as having straight hair. To me it looks like braids or dread locked hair.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: My tests show that I'm even less "arab" than the average berber but I'm arab lol and stop posting north africans from southern areas so you can claim NA's history. Be proud of your West African ancestors.
have you done any YDNA only test like on familytreedna? Just out of curiosity. My grandfather was from Taza. I did YDNA test and it came back R1b.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
.
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
To me it looks like braids or dread locked hair.
.
.
Tehenu Libyan captive Relief from Sahure's pyramid complex in Abusir Old Kingdom 5th dynasty of Egypt ca 2487–2475 BC
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: here as you can see guanches were similar to modern coastal north africans (like me). It should be said that guanches never faced any kind of foreign invasions or slave trade so this break the myth of modern north africans being invaders :
I have read the claim in peer reviewed papers that there was an European component among guanches. Based on the idea that because of the presence of R1b it means Europeans sailed in to the area and intermixed with the locals.. Interestingly, R1b is significant among Kabyle in Algeria as well.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: .
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
To me it looks like braids or dread locked hair.
.
.
Tehenu Libyan captive Relief from Sahure's pyramid complex in Abusir Old Kingdom 5th dynasty of Egypt ca 2487–2475 BC
I would argue the second picture could represent braids as well. Do you know of any other pictures from other populations that have similar hair representations in Ancient Egyptian reliefs?
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Who says "Modern North Africans" are invaders? First off which "Modern North Africans" are we speaking about? Second when it comes to Leuko-Berbers the conventional explanation is that they are native with admixture from Europeans, specifically European females. Also from migrations from the Middle East, which is what you biodiversity google scholars also claim, is it not?
You can try to Eurasianize the Berbers all you want but these Berbers/North Africans still exist..
Africa | A Berber woman dressed for the celebration of Moussem. | Location: Tarhjijt, Morrocco. Image credit Oliver Martel
A Berber woman wears her prized silver jewelry at a friend’s wedding. Akka, Morocco
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: here as you can see guanches were similar to modern coastal north africans (like me). It should be said that guanches never faced any kind of foreign invasions or slave trade so this break the myth of modern north africans being invaders :
These are not indigenous north africans. They are haratins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haratin). Also I just posted my results where are your so called big euro component or arab one ?
based on what are you saying they are Haratin? I know many black/dark Imazighen from North Africa, born and raised, never left, and if you ask them about what is a haratin they wont even know what that refers to. So is this more of a eurocentric designation?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
A limestone relief depicting a nobleman, New Kingdom, Dynasty XIX or XX, c. 1295-1070 BCE. The figure is probably a scene from an offering in the Underworld. On the left side a hand is holding a sistrum and flower.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Obviously, no one is denying that Leuko-and Tawny white Berbers existed in Coastal North Africa from pre-historic times. They're depicted as Pale-yellow contrasting the Darker Brown Egyptians who are lighter than the black Neheshi on the tombs of Egypt.
No one is denying this, as far as I can tell. Nassa is a paranoid google scholar who needs at all costs to perpetuate his victim mentality to push his agenda.
quote:Originally posted by One Third African:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Just let these biodiversity google scholars rant, and their agenda and tactics become clear. Like I said these new ones are boring, ranting and raving against straw opponents and deflecting to the same tired arguments again and again...
For what it's worth, I don't have a problem with lighter-skinned people being present in North Africa during ancient times. What I would dispute is that they've always represented the entire region's population like some of these Amazigh nationalists have claimed or implied. Certainly, I doubt the proto-Afrasan people from Northeast Africa who moved into the Maghreb and gave rise to the earliest Libyco-Berber speakers looked anything like Nassbean and his buddies.
Doesn't Y-DNA data suggest that Amazigh speakers underwent a recent bottleneck a couple thousand years ago? Somebody on ForumBiodiversity correlated it with the Punic Wars and the destruction of Carthage. If so, modern Berbers may represent only a fraction of the diversity of ancient North Africa.
These leucoderm berbers represent the great great majority of ancient north africans...black north africans were probably even less common than what we can see today
source: What Happened to the Ancient Libyans? Chasing Sources across the Sahara from Herodotus to Ibn Khaldun Author(s): Richard L. Smith
Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: [qb]It was a northafrican/middle eastern civilization that had no link with west,central,east and south Africa.
Ok, if you say so it must be "true." [QB]
lol. At least "Hammer" in the old days kept it more entertaining... even when he was "replying" to his own "posts" via another account...
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
A limestone relief depicting a nobleman, New Kingdom, Dynasty XIX or XX, c. 1295-1070 BCE. The figure is probably a scene from an offering in the Underworld. On the left side a hand is holding a sistrum and flower.
yes, look at the tips of the hair (around the shoulder area). Those look like braids
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
North African has no link to subsaharan africa. Maybe. Though to me this makes no sense. We know some groups that are in current day subsaharan africa were from the north at earlier dates. So lumping someone as being SSA or NA isn't necessarily historically accurate given population movements. Eitherway, none of this negates the fact that some Imazighen were originally black in color and phenotype originally and still are. I think the best approach would be to look at the YDNA haplogroups involved. The predominate one being E, and from my understanding branches off from East Africa. The language also is African and branches off from other east african populations. So most likely the original group was black, and similar to other East African groups. I would then assume outside input along the maternal and paternal side via immigration took place in ancient and more recent times. While I do not know the MTDNA present in North Africa, I do know along with E there is J, R, I, T and G. Which shows external male presence. (this is assuming R is actually from outside of Africa). This would then have changed the physical appearance of SOME of Imazighen (the whiter ones) and not all (the darker ones). All are Imazighen, all are African, however they don't have the same paternal or maternal lineages. Also wasn't there a paper recently that stated the oldest remains in North Africa do not cluster with the current population? Maybe I am misremembering. My point being white imazighen do not have any more claim to what is or isn't an Amazigh, nor does the black Amazigh. The whites who try to lump black imazighen into some mythical haratin group are under the influence of eurocentrism, just as the black (often legacy african americans) who says the white Imazighen aren't true amazighen is under the influence of some extreme and perverse form of afrocentrism.
Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Yatunde says:
America's biggest failure is a moment of cutting their noses off to spite their face.. after the Spanish American war.. failing to annex Cuba because the population was to miscegentated...they couldn't trust that yte Cubanos where actually "yte" LOL stupid!!
How could it be a "failure" for America to not annex Cuba? It is actually a blessing that America did not annex Cuba because that would have added a giant boost to the slaveocracy, and the southern slave regime. The main opposition against CUba's annexation was not primarily miscegnation, but the fact that the addition of Cuba would give the southern slavocrat bloc more influence on the national level. If Cuba was admitted to the Union as a single state, the island would have sent two senators and up to nine representatives to Washington. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostend_Manifesto
The expansion of the slave regime would have meant continued misery for blacks, and a prolongation of the brutal slave trade that killed millions. It is no surprise that one of the last countries to abolish slavery in the Americas was "miscegnated" Cuba in 1886.
Dude.. the Civil War ended in 1865... the south and slavery was already defeated..
In order to prevent the possibility of US annexation of Cuba, Congress passed the Teller Amendment, which proclaimed that the United States would help the Cuban people gain their freedom from Spain but would not annex the island after victory Under the Treaty of Paris, Cuba became a U.S. protectorate from 1898–1902; the U.S. gained a position of economic and political dominance over the island, which persisted after it became formally independent in 1902. Following the Cuban Revolution of 1959, bilateral relations deteriorated substantially.
Economically and strategically it was a dumb move. 90 miles south of Florida....
Your spiel undermines your own argument. If as you say above- quote:
" the U.S. gained a position of economic and political dominance over the island, which persisted after it became formally independent in 1902.
Then the US gained the benefits it sought our of Cuba, including military bases and econ/politico dominance WITHOUT the expense and hassle of direct annexation and administration. They got local flunkies and compradors to do the dirty work on the ground, while they reaped the benefits. That is not a "dumb" move at all, but rather a smart one. In like manner the Roman empire discovered that it didn't need the expense and hassle of direct conquest and administration of every patch of ground, when pliant client regimes could do the dirty work, while keeping tribute flowing to Rome. That is smart, economical hegemony, and history 101, not "dumb."
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: While I do not know the MTDNA present in North Africa, I do know along with E there is J, R, I, T and G. Which shows external male presence. (this is assuming R is actually from outside of Africa).
The YDNA haplogroup considered to be indigenous to North Africa is E-M81 (common sub clade is M183)
and indigenous NA mtDNA haplogroup, U6 and M1
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
Tehenu Libyan captive Relief from Sahure's pyramid complex in Abusir Old Kingdom 5th dynasty of Egypt ca 2487–2475 BC
I would argue the second picture could represent braids as well.
why?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Hartini at core are intra-Saharan peoples.
Oasis Algerian Imazighen certainly know them.
There's no reason Mediterraneans would know of them.
My take is the core Hartini descend from those who stayed put as Sahara went from lush to sand.
Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Latin American populations serve as an excellent example of admxiture. There are are many so-called 'white' Hispanics who are called so because of their white appearance but still have African or Amerindian ancestry.
Take Puerto-Ricans for example.
https://www.livescience.com/37624-mapping-puerto-rican-heritage.html One of these earlier studies, published in PLOS ONE in 2011, found that on average Puerto Ricans' ancestry is 15 percent American Indian (known as Taino), 21 percent African and nearly 64 percent European. But this ratio varies across the island, with more European background on the west side of the island and more African on the east side.
This explains certain attributes of Puerto Ricans
^^LOL no doubt. The NA "Caucasian classification" is somewhat like the "honorary white" classification given to the Japanese under SA's old apartheid regime. What better way to demonstrate goodwill than removing one of the biggest humiliations and handicaps that diplomats, tourists or migrants might face- removal of the "taint" of blackness. The Arab types love it- why, the US is such a true friend.. fellaheem, it considers us white!
Meanwhile, back in the real world, non "white" diplomats and tourists from non "honorary" countries, got to learn plenty about "free world" segregation and Jim Crow. It got so bad that US President John Kennedy had to publicly appeal to Maryland realtors and other whites in the 1960s to ease up on the discrimination because it was creating all sorts of ugly diplomatic incidents with "Third World" diplomats. Various bandaid fixes were made so that the State Dept could hide and finesse the gnarly realities on the ground. No such special arrangements however were made for native American blacks. It took messy civil rights demonstrations that embarrassed the Kennedy regime internationally during the Cold War (i.e. Freedom Riders etc etc) before movement was made on certain things.
Eisenhower Admin had similar embarrassment. It had to call in the ambassador from newly created Ghana for a White House apology after the black diplomat was dissed multiple times at US restaurants and other facilities. Most honorary "white" Egyptians and Arabs however sailed right on through.
No such smooth sailing greeted a black diplomat from Haiti in the 1950s, who was going to a UN Conference where the Americans would ask for his vote on a human rights measure- a nice show or indicator of international cooperation and solidarity with the West against those pesky Soviets always accusing America of hypocrisy.
All looked good on the flight in, but no sooner had the Negro landed on US soil however, when he was shunted by white handlers into a noisy airplane hangar with a folding stool. Generously, the Negro was offered a cold sandwich in waxed paper. Meanwhile the white people on the plane got to stroll into a nice comfortable restaurant for a nice meal.
Sec of State Dean Rusk noted the incident, and the irony of the US asking this man for a vote in favor of the US on a human rights issue. Rusk believed that incidents like this were "a severe barrier to cordial relations with many foreign states." --Mark Dudziak 2000. Cold War Civil RIghts
Too bad for the black man - maybe he might have had better luck if classified as "North African"..
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
This is what I always assumed, I know that many Berbers consider Heritin to be a free people, and native to North Africa. But the Heratin of Mauritania are different...its confusing tbh
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Hartini at core are intra-Saharan peoples.
Oasis Algerian Imazighens certainly know them.
There's no reason Mediterraneans would know of them.
My take is the core Hartini descend from those who stayed put as Sahara went from lush to sand.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: While I do not know the MTDNA present in North Africa, I do know along with E there is J, R, I, T and G. Which shows external male presence. (this is assuming R is actually from outside of Africa).
The YDNA haplogroup considered to be indigenous to North Africa is E-M81 (common sub clade is M183)
and indigenous NA mtDNA haplogroup, U6 and M1
thank you. I knew of E. Didn’t know the mtdna info. Do your know where U6 and M1 is said to be from?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: While I do not know the MTDNA present in North Africa, I do know along with E there is J, R, I, T and G. Which shows external male presence. (this is assuming R is actually from outside of Africa).
The YDNA haplogroup considered to be indigenous to North Africa is E-M81 (common sub clade is M183)
and indigenous NA mtDNA haplogroup, U6 and M1
thank you. I knew of E. Didn’t know the mtdna info. Do your know where U6 and M1 is said to be from?
just start with wikipedia type "haplogroup U6 " in google
and then
"haplogroup M1" in google
usually the wiki will come up or just read a few source that comes up
then if you want something genetics journal level just not the references in the wiki article and then see where they are at the bottom
Some African haplogroups have African ancestors others have Eurasian ancestors but developed a unique variations of it when people returned to Africa and resettled for a while
The origin of many are uncertain and the detail complicated generally the origin is strongly suggested by
1) diversity of sub-clades of given haplogroup 2) frequency percentage in populations 3) location of oldest remains found
Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: "debunked" wtf did you debunk ?? posting old and debunked sources won't help you it's not a coincidence if all their sources are from the XXth century or before 2005...
I debunked your claims, idiot! Htf are the sources I posted "debunked", when you didn't even bother addressing them?! LOL Just because a source is old does not mean it is outdated or "debunked" as you say. Apparently you don't know how science works. It doesn't matter how old a source is as long as the findings are still valid. That is why research is replicated to either validate or refute the older sources yet you fail to post anything that refuted my old sources.
Here is an example of what I'm saying. The craniometric graph below comes from Keita's 1988 study.
^ Note how close late predynastic Naqada clusters close to Nubian Kerma followed by Abydos while the late dynastic E series clusters close to the Maghreb which in turn is closest to the Levantine Lachish.
Here is another craniometric graph this time by Brothwell in a 2016 study.
^ Again note how close the Naqada sample is to Kerma and other Nubian samples. Which again confirms the Egyptians close affinities to Nubians first and foremost.
Here are more studies this time showing non-metric traits as much better indicators of genetic relationships and they all show Egyptians grouping with Nubians.
So tell me again how any of the old sources including the melanin study from Germany is debunked?
quote:Meanwhile they couldn't refute all the dna results I posted , they couldn't refute the ancient depictions I posted , they couldn't refute the genetic and anthropological data I posted ...
You posted genetic studies but failed to properly convey what they mean. You even deny the fact that E1b1b originated in Sub-Saharan Africa as that is where it has its highest diversity and concentration NOT Eurasia, and all the ancient depictions you posted are cherry-picked portraits either unpainted or have completely lost their paint with the narrowest noses and thinnest lips in an attempt to white-wash while all the portraits we post show otherwise. You're anthropological data is also laughable as all you post is craniometric data showing Egyptians had narrow noses similar to Europeans who have narrow noses.
Meanwhile what about anthropological data about skeletal limb proportions like these?
"..sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into southern Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans."--Barry Kemp, Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation (2005)
Harris and Wente note the prevalence of dental prognathism among Nubians. Often this is combined with malocclusion. Similar incidence can be found in other African peoples. For example, one study found that a sample taken from the Kenya showed 61.3% of Maasai had diastema; 84% of Kikuyu had overbite and 99% had overjet; and 24% of Kalenjin had anterior open bite. Although these dental traits can often be acquired through habits like thumb-sucking, as noted by Harris and Wente, the high frequency in the royal mummies indicates a genetic origin as found in Africans... The late XVII Dynasty and XVIII Dynasty royal mummies display the strongest Nubian affinities. In terms of maxillary protrusion as measured by SNA, the mean value for these Pharaohs is 84.21 comparable to that of African Americans...--P. K. Manansala 2006 on James Harris & Edward Wente, X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980)
quote:Just a bunch of new world blacks with a heavy inferiority complex who try to claim every non-black civilizations they can ....pathetic They only see the world through their american dichotomical view.
Ad-hominem nonsense. Not all of us here are even blacks or from America. How about addressing the facts.
quote:No sorry you bantus are not related to horners let alone north africans.
So first, we're American blacks but now we are Bantus! Okay.
Meanwhile you never bothered explaining how West Africans are as close to Horners as North Africans, Middle-Easterners, and Europeans and how all are closer to Bantu speaking Biaka and Mbuti Pygmies than Southern African Khoisan.
quote:Egypt was not a black or white civilization. It was a northafrican/middle eastern civilization that had no link with west,central,east and south Africa. The modern descendents of AEs are modern egyptians. Period. You have not a single evidence that they are genetically non-indigenous so your rhetorical arguments won't work with me.
First of all 'black' and 'white' are color labels while North Africa and the Middle East are geographic labels. Apparently you don't know that there are black people in both regions just as there are white people! And of course modern Egyptians are the descendants of ancient Egyptians nobody said otherwise. We've shown you tons of pictures of modern day [black] Baladi (non-Arab indigenous) Egyptians. But being descended does not necessarily mean same according to the genetic findings of the Schuenemann et. al 2017 study published in Nature.
^ Assuming the late period mummies they sampled were truly indigenous (which I doubt they were) they don't have Sub-Saharan alleles whereas modern Egyptians do. Yet interestingly, modern Algerians and Tunisians possess even higher Sub-Saharan alleles than modern Egyptians do so where does that leave your claims??! LOL
quote:I only talk here because of quarantine lol you're just clowns to me none of you debunked me and none of you convinced me.
Says the clown who has been debunked over a dozen times. They say when people are shut in the crazies show themselves and you are a perfect example.
quote:Admin: ENOUGH!
Indeed enough of your insanity.
LOL. Some people drink from the fountain of knowledge, but looks like this Nassbeam fellow merely gargled..
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: While I do not know the MTDNA present in North Africa, I do know along with E there is J, R, I, T and G. Which shows external male presence. (this is assuming R is actually from outside of Africa).
The YDNA haplogroup considered to be indigenous to North Africa is E-M81 (common sub clade is M183)
and indigenous NA mtDNA haplogroup, U6 and M1
thank you. I knew of E. Didn’t know the mtdna info. Do your know where U6 and M1 is said to be from?
just start with wikipedia type "haplogroup U6 " in google
and then
"haplogroup M1" in google
usually the wiki will come up or just read a few source that comes up
then if you want something genetics journal level just not the references in the wiki article and then see where they are at the bottom
Some African haplogroups have African ancestors others have Eurasian ancestors but developed a unique variations of it when people returned to Africa and resettled for a while
The origin of many are uncertain and the detail complicated generally the origin is strongly suggested by
1) diversity of sub-clades of given haplogroup 2) frequency percentage in populations 3) location of oldest remains found
thank you! Isn’t oldest remains found a bit of a weak foundation to rest upon? For example not even 80% of possible archeologically significant sites in Africa have been excavated, let alone the entire world. I feel like it opens up the possibility for the theory of a given haplogroup will always be changing.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness
The origin of many are uncertain and the detail complicated generally the origin is strongly suggested by
1) diversity of sub-clades of given haplogroup 2) frequency percentage in populations 3) location of oldest remains found [/qb]
thank you! Isn’t oldest remains found a bit of a weak foundation to rest upon? For example not even 80% of possible archeologically significant sites in Africa have been excavated, let alone the entire world. I feel like it opens up the possibility for the theory of a given haplogroup will always be changing.
It is a consideration of all these factors and geneticists have way of estimating the age of haplogroup. So if they were analyzing the diversity and frequency of a haplogroup in a population and estimated that it's origin was in that place and it was a about 6,000 years old, if remains are later discovered in some other place and they find that haplogroup in those remains and they are dated (with a method independent of the DNA analysis) and those remains are, say, 9,000 years old then they would have to revise their conclusions as to the origin.
Also sometimes they find remains that seem to be of a haplogroup they have already identified but as they find out more about it and test people in the region they may discover previously unknown clade of it. Some of these clades could be the most recent mutations and others could be the basal clade, the first form of the haplogroup (usually indicated when written by * ) which is often rare and can be extinct in modern people.
This is the nature of science conclusions may continually be updated. But as time goes on many of these revisions become smaller revisions. Theses are estimates and best guesses.
Additional factors added
1) diversity of sub-clades of given haplogroup 2) frequency percentage in populations 3) location of oldest remains found 4) historical context 5) degree of isolation 6) genetic drift
An additional factor is historical factors. If a migration was recorded in the past it could influence the interpretations of the DNA results.
Then there's isolation. Some people with a given haplogroup go into an area and they don't leave it for a long time and not many outsiders intermarry with them (Endogamy) So you might see high frequency of a haplogroup in an area which is one of the factors suggesting origin. However if diversity is low and there aren't other variant clades it suggest isolation rather than origin in some cases
Similar to this is genetic drift. Suppose a given population has a certain amount of genetic genetic variation. Not everyone in it is exactly the same but are related. So if there are 9 typical variations within the group and a couple of families representing only two of them leave the group and resettle somewhere else then after they resettle just their two variants multiply.
So again the frequency of their sub clade could become high in their new location due to this arbitrary situation. The high frequency of the clade in the area might originally have suggested place of origin but in fact it is this genetic drift, particular individual leaving the group and their particular characteristics becoming prominent somewhere else.
In other cases the high frequency is the place of origin. So there are a lot of factors to consider. People who want the outcome to be a certain way might exaggerate one of these factors to fit and expectation or agenda so peer review and re-testing hypothesis is necessary.
I think as time goes on people will be viewed by their specific DNA rather than the origin of it. There will be new findings which will indicate more attributes to the specific DNA. And there are also new dangers in the interpretation of this.
Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Djehuti says: You posted genetic studies but failed to properly convey what they mean. You even deny the fact that E1b1b originated in Sub-Saharan Africa as that is where it has its highest diversity and concentration NOT Eurasia, and all the ancient depictions you posted are cherry-picked portraits either unpainted or have completely lost their paint with the narrowest noses and thinnest lips in an attempt to white-wash while all the portraits we post show otherwise. You're anthropological data is also laughable as all you post is craniometric data showing Egyptians had narrow noses similar to Europeans who have narrow noses.
Meanwhile what about anthropological data about skeletal limb proportions like these?
Indeed. And Smith 2002 laid out the allegedly "non existent" connections between Egyptians and FELLOW Africans in detail as well.
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: The real deal.. no blue eyed berber pic spam..
Moroccan girls 🇲🇦❤️ (Glow Up Edition) 10,699 views•May 5, 2020
Great video, very reminiscent of what I am familiar with. And that thee has to be miracle.
Posted by Forty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ty Daniels: His premise was RETARDED and misinformed from the beginning.
1. MOST AMERICANS, don't even know that Egypt is in Africa (This includes So-Called Afro Americans)
2. Many "African Americans" don't even consider themselves "Africans" (regardless how wrong they are about this) to begin with, so no, they aren't looking to Africa/Egypt for a sense of "Self Esteem".
3. Most "African Americans" can give 2-F**Ks about Egypt, and don't think about Egypt AT ALL.
4. The average "African American" is Christian by religion, and believes that "Ancient Egyptians were Evil".
Bring an Ankh into the "Average Christian" Black American home, and they will look at you like you are a "Devil Worshiper", especially with the older "Black American" population.
There is a reason why Harriet Tubman is paralleled to Moses and NOT PHARAOH.
Your General lack of knowledge about "African Americans" continues to drive your WRONG, ILL-FORMED BABBLE.
5. The Average "Black American" couldn't tell you jack $**t about the Moors, so no they aren't trying to be "Moors".
6. White "Europeans" (as a group/historically) have "Appropriated" Ancient Egypt, to a level that would make the most uncompromising "Afrocentric" seem moderate.
Damn near 100% of every movie, video game, comic book, children's book, school textbook, biblical illustration, "historical reenactment" about Ancient Egypt, is portrayed by "White Europeans" ( WITH BRITISH F**KING ACCENTS ).
Damn near all of them!
Yet NOT ONE SINGLE WORD out of you and the OTHER HYPOCRITES who seek to chastise "Afro Americans".
You even used some of those fake-a** modern illustrations in your post to "Prove" your point.
Your Anti-Black hypocrisy is so blatant it's repulsive.
Yet you "play" like you are only concerned with presenting the truth, as you "Protect Egypt" from the "Darkies".
lol do I have a clone? I don't think I would go as far as to say that the average African American still doesn't know Egypt is in Africa and thinks they were evil but I will say that when it comes to 'appropriating' Egyptian culture its a world wide phenomenon. When it comes to monetizing and racialising ancient Egypt, African Americans have nothing on Europeans and Euro Americans.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ty Daniels: His premise was RETARDED and misinformed from the beginning.
1. MOST AMERICANS, don't even know that Egypt is in Africa (This includes So-Called Afro Americans)
2. Many "African Americans" don't even consider themselves "Africans" (regardless how wrong they are about this) to begin with, so no, they aren't looking to Africa/Egypt for a sense of "Self Esteem".
lol do I have a clone? I don't think I would go as far as to say that the average African American still doesn't know Egypt is in Africa and thinks they were evil but I will say that when it comes to 'appropriating' Egyptian culture its a world wide phenomenon. When it comes to monetizing and racialising ancient Egypt, African Americans have nothing on Europeans and Euro Americans.
I'm from an older generation, as well as raised in a highly religious home (Father was a Minster).
So with my experience, and the church communities I grew up in and around, anything that wasn't "Christian" was "From The Devil".
I do agree, that there are a lot of modern/current Black Americans, that have a more balanced understanding of Egypt (Africa as a whole).
Learning about African history and using African iconography has become more "Mainstream" in the Black community.
Posted by Ty Daniels (Member # 23186) on :
Yeah this is just a small sample of the foolishness that goes on with "Appropriating Egypt".
Yet folks are only "concerned" when "Black" people do it.
The vitriol, and combativeness goes beyond level 1000 when Black folks discuss Egypt, yet those same folks who had "Smoke" for "Afrocentrics" are extra silent, when "Whites" and other "Non-Blacks" use Egypt.
It's hypocritical.
Posted by Punos_Rey (Member # 21929) on :
The personal attacks on posters WILL stop! Any more after this and this thread will be closed and vacation tickets granted for free.
Posted by Afrophagos (Member # 23409) on :
Moroccan from Fes - paternal Hg : E-M35 - Maternal hg : H20a1a (I noticed many fassi are highly mixed but from a historical point of view that's not surprising) :
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. You complain about how people shouldn't learn history beyond their most direct heritage and yet you're messing up because you don't know enough about West African history to hold this conversation. Imagine if I whined about you not being West African if you decided to educate yourself. Silly right? 
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