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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Anticipating tL to delete this I park it here.


Fuckery, just as anticipated.
Lying about where the drawn heads originate.
Drudging up an old war to lose yet another battle.


I already accurately labeled the two at right.
Only far right is a Nehesi.
At left and center are Egyptians.
The two black skinned are the ones on Diops cover.




Like when I posted it over a decade ago, when I posted all available paintings of scene 30, Merenptah's brown skinned Egyptian and Ramesses black skinned Egyptian have nearly the same profile.
Ramesses' Nehesian's profile is unlike theirs.

All three are on the same Denkmaeler plate.

Originally posted 24 March 2007 by me.


Only serious comments and replies will get a reply.
I don't have time for lying stealing bullshitters.
Will gladly field any who want to discuss and learn.


I ask responsible administration how they expect people to learn anything while allowing their pet troll moderator to shit all over the facts.

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
Huh? It was you showed 'em here, eh?

Lemme amplify the Ramesses Egyptian and Nehesian Denkmaeler facs.
I'll add the Seti Egyptian up front for comparison.

Compare and contrast foreheads, eyes, ears, nose slopes, lips, and chins.

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^this brown head at left is apparently a facsimile of the tomb of Merenptah , the two at right, colored black, Nehesy from the tomb of Rameses III


So the above does not correspond to this book cover with the facsimile of Ramses III, Book of gates, KV11 where there is no such difference to amplify

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


Here are some figures from Rameses III. Two of a set of four of the same type.
They have hieroglyphs by them that are sometimes associated with Egyptians but it would be silly to assume that they are Egyptians because they are wearing Nubian clothing

And this Nubian clothing is exactly the same as another set of four figures in the same scene who are by hieroglyphics associated with Nubians

However the many other images of Egyptians in this same tomb, including the king are brown skinned and not wearing Nubian clothing. Obviously these figures are an anomaly within this tomb and also don't match the same 5th hour Book of Gates scene in other tombs.

Had this set of jet black skinned figures been wearing Egyptian clothing and not have matched exactly the same clothing as the Nubians are only then would it be reasonable to assume that they are Egyptians.



Here we have an illustration representing figures from two different tombs.
The top row is from the tomb of Merenptah and shows the typical arrangement of this 5th hour afterlife scene from the Book of Gates,
Egyptians, Asiatics, Nubians, Libyans

Then looking at the bottom row from another tomb. the one at issue, Rameses III KV11, in the Egyptian position a figure that is of the exact same skin color and clothing as the third figure with the Nubian glyphs
In the rest of the tomb you don't see more of these figures. It's an anomaly and you can't draw any conclusions from it
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

top row tomb of Merenptah (Egyptian,Asiatic, Nubian, Libyan)
bottom row tomb of Rameses III

quote:

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Originally posted by Tyrannohotep:




Has it occurred to anyone that they might be Egyptianized Kushites? As in, ethnically Kushite dudes who assimilated into the Egyptian nationality?

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I don't think so.
This scene from the 5th hour of the Book of Gates
includes Horus watching over four groups of four men


so if you propose
Egyptianized Kushites, that would be five groups not four
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Sure, anything you say!

Anybody interested in the facts?

@ TyrannoHotep
Would you like to introduce your thoughts yourself into this thead for discussion?
You can answer theLioness in her thread on Deshret where you actually posted.

Of course we've examined this umpteen times since 2004.
Still a sincere revisit might reveal previously unthought of insights.

At last look I concluded three of the Ramesses ethnic subscenes appear mistaken.
Their labels do not match their norm depictions in other Gate of Teka Hra scene 30 tomb paintings.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
___________________________________________




You say that the order can never change
1) RT RMT yw (Egyptian)
2) AAMW (Asiatic)
3) NHHSW (Nubian)
4) TMHHW (Libyan)

yes we see that order in the top row from Merenptah
but looking at the bottom row from Rameses III, the second figure is TMHHW(Libyan)
That breaks the order right there, they were supposed to be last. Instead the AAMW is last
-more problems for the traditional order in this tomb




we see the figures clothed Nubian here with the RMT glyphs
at right obliquely you can see the side locked Libyan, that shows that the illustration corresponds to the figure order as record of what is at this particular Rameses tomb
but it also shows it does not correspond to the order of these figures in other tombs where TMHHW does not follow RMT
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
See why I won't entertain tL.
Obvious trolling and drudging up old ass past bullshit.

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by alTakruri:
The textual order of the "Herd of RA" in BG4:5 s30 is:

1. RT RMT yw
2. AAMW
3. NHHSW
4. TMHHW

This order can never change because the AE viewed
themselves as first among all humanity and because
Ra

• first shines on the AAMW in the morning,
• then on the NHHSW as the day wears on,
• and finally sets on the TMHHW.

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You seem to have left out the AAMW Asiatics in your sun shining sequence commentary. Why?

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:


Here are some figures from Rameses III. Two of a set of four of the same type.
They have hieroglyphs by them that are sometimes associated with Egyptians but it would be silly to assume that they are Egyptians because they are wearing Nubian clothing

And this Nubian clothing is exactly the same as another set of four figures in the same scene who are by hieroglyphics associated with Nubians

However the many other images of Egyptians in this same tomb, including the king are brown skinned and not wearing Nubian clothing. Obviously these figures are an anomaly within this tomb and also don't match the same 5th hour Book of Gates scene in other tombs.

Had this set of jet black skinned figures been wearing Egyptian clothing and not have matched exactly the same clothing as the Nubians are only then would it be reasonable to assume that they are Egyptians.



Here we have an illustration representing figures from two different tombs.
The top row is from the tomb of Merenptah and shows the typical arrangement of this 5th hour afterlife scene from the Book of Gates,
Egyptians, Asiatics, Nubians, Libyans

Then looking at the bottom row from another tomb. the one at issue, Rameses III KV11, in the Egyptian position a figure that is of the exact same skin color and clothing as the third figure with the Nubian glyphs
In the rest of the tomb you don't see more of these figures. It's an anomaly and you can't draw any conclusions from it

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


Here are some figures from Rameses III. Two of a set of four of the same type.
They have hieroglyphs by them that are sometimes associated with Egyptians but it would be silly to assume that they are Egyptians because they are wearing Nubian clothing

And this Nubian clothing is exactly the same as another set of four figures in the same scene who are by hieroglyphics associated with Nubians

However the many other images of Egyptians in this same tomb, including the king are brown skinned and not wearing Nubian clothing. Obviously these figures are an anomaly within this tomb and also don't match the same 5th hour Book of Gates scene in other tombs.

Had this set of jet black skinned figures been wearing Egyptian clothing and not have matched exactly the same clothing as the Nubians are only then would it be reasonable to assume that they are Egyptians.



Here we have an illustration representing figures from two different tombs.
The top row is from the tomb of Merenptah and shows the typical arrangement of this 5th hour afterlife scene from the Book of Gates,
Egyptians, Asiatics, Nubians, Libyans

Then looking at the bottom row from another tomb. the one at issue, Rameses III KV11, in the Egyptian position a figure that is of the exact same skin color and clothing as the third figure with the Nubian glyphs
In the rest of the tomb you don't see more of these figures. It's an anomaly and you can't draw any conclusions from it

---

the lioness "They have hieroglyphs by them that are sometimes associated with Egyptians but it would be silly to assume that they are Egyptians because they are wearing Nubian clothing "

what is the difference between "Nubian" clothing and "Egyptian" clothing?

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Nubian Tribute Presented to the King, Tomb of Huy

things common in many depictions of Nubians are:
- many, not all figures, groups of them depicted with jet black skin*
- hoop earrings
- a long reddish brown sash that goes diagonally across the chest and wraps around the waist
- a large dot pattern in the shoulder portion of the garment
- pleated hat or hair, sometimes reddish
- single feather in hat (but sometimes left out not to occupy hieroglyphic text space)

*in depictions of Egyptians,in professional well lit photos of the art you don't see multiple jet black skin figures as you do in depictions of Nubians.
You do sometimes see as an individual figure Osiris depicted jet black or the King in funerary scenes personifying Osiris depicted jet black


Statue of Tutankhamun. Guardian Ka statue (#29) of Tutankhamun. It once stood to the left, guarding the entrance to his burial chamber.


Tutankhamen, wooden bust


Mentuhotep II as Osiris


Mentuhotep II
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the questioner:
Bottom-line Ancient Egyptians were black Africans

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
This is how ancient Egypt portrayed themselves, as can be seen in the Book of Gates rendition; with text that reads RMTYW (Remetu, ie Egyptians) although the garb is NHSW (Nehesi, ie 'Nubian').

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
At last look I concluded three of the Ramesses ethnic subscenes appear mistaken.
Their labels do not match their norm depictions in other Gate of Teka Hra scene 30 tomb paintings.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


Here are some figures from Rameses III. Two of a set of four of the same type.
They have hieroglyphs by them that are sometimes associated with Egyptians but it would be silly to assume that they are Egyptians because they are wearing Nubian clothing

And this Nubian clothing is exactly the same as another set of four figures in the same scene who are by hieroglyphics associated with Nubians

However the many other images of Egyptians in this same tomb, including the king are brown skinned and not wearing Nubian clothing. Obviously these figures are an anomaly within this tomb and also don't match the same 5th hour Book of Gates scene in other tombs.

Had this set of jet black skinned figures been wearing Egyptian clothing and not have matched exactly the same clothing as the Nubians are only then would it be reasonable to assume that they are Egyptians.



Here we have an illustration representing figures from two different tombs.
The top row is from the tomb of Merenptah and shows the typical arrangement of this 5th hour afterlife scene from the Book of Gates,
Egyptians, Asiatics, Nubians, Libyans

Then looking at the bottom row from another tomb. the one at issue, Rameses III KV11, in the Egyptian position a figure that is of the exact same skin color and clothing as the third figure with the Nubian glyphs
In the rest of the tomb you don't see more of these figures. It's an anomaly and you can't draw any conclusions from it

---

the lioness "They have hieroglyphs by them that are sometimes associated with Egyptians but it would be silly to assume that they are Egyptians because they are wearing Nubian clothing "

what is the difference between "Nubian" clothing and "Egyptian" clothing?

---

Nubian Tribute Presented to the King, Tomb of Huy

things common in many depictions of Nubians are:
- many, not all figures, groups of them depicted with jet black skin*
- hoop earrings
- a long reddish brown sash that goes diagonally across the chest and wraps around the waist
- a large dot pattern in the shoulder portion of the garment
- pleated hat or hair, sometimes reddish
- single feather in hat (but sometimes left out not to occupy hieroglyphic text space)

*in depictions of Egyptians,in professional well lit photos of the art you don't see multiple jet black skin figures as you do in depictions of Nubians.
You do sometimes see as an individual figure Osiris depicted jet black or the King in funerary scenes personifying Osiris depicted jet black


Statue of Tutankhamun. Guardian Ka statue (#29) of Tutankhamun. It once stood to the left, guarding the entrance to his burial chamber.


Tutankhamen, wooden bust


Mentuhotep II as Osiris


Mentuhotep II

---

^^^ then why are these ancient Egyptians depicted the same way ancient Nubians are?
It proves there is no difference between the dress of Egyptians and Nubians
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
The painting is only an illustration of the sacred text written above the drawings.
Per religious decree a preperation for resurrection and judgement before Osiris on the Throne.
The first recorded afterlife judgement and reward theology borrowed by later Semitic religions.

Egyptians are always first after Horus.
In the text they are r-[m]-T rmT w.
Ie., literally men of men, "The best of humanity".
Some wrongfully think that means they thought everybody else was subhuman.

They didn't.
Because along the Sun's path all were eligible for Osirian Resurrection to judgement and reward or punishment.
Sunrise up on the aAm rmT w
Noon upriver over nHs rmT w
Sunset down past TmH rmT w
This holy order never changes, it reflects nature.

Now the caption written between each of the men abbreviates.
Only Egyptians are spelled with rmT signs there.
Sometimes text and caption use different glyphs to spell the same name.


From Seti I's tomb.
This scene is also in another chamber of his tomb.
It no doubt has mistakes in both art and text.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
At last look I concluded three of the Ramesses ethnic subscenes appear mistaken.
Their labels do not match their norm depictions in other Gate of Teka Hra scene 30 tomb paintings.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:



^^^ then why are these ancient Egyptians depicted the same way ancient Nubians are?
It proves there is no difference between the dress of Egyptians and Nubians

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
At last look I concluded three of the Ramesses ethnic subscenes appear mistaken.
Their labels do not match their norm depictions in other Gate of Teka Hra scene 30 tomb paintings.

---

.

.

quote:

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Originally posted by the questioner:



^^^ then why are these ancient Egyptians depicted the same way ancient Nubians are?
It proves there is no difference between the dress of Egyptians and Nubians

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why are you calling them Egyptians?

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rmtw= egyptian
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

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Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
At last look I concluded three of the Ramesses ethnic subscenes appear mistaken.
Their labels do not match their norm depictions in other Gate of Teka Hra scene 30 tomb paintings.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
ultimately ancient Egyptians have a variety of looks and fashions. it is silly to stereotype them

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
That's true about the kfw but you ignore this >

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
At last look I concluded three of the Ramesses ethnic subscenes appear mistaken.
Their labels do not match their norm depictions in other Gate of Teka Hra scene 30 tomb paintings.

---

.

and that is the problem, you have blinders on when it comes to contextual and circumstantial evidence
and a belief that nothing could ever be mislabeled

quote:

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Originally posted by the questioner:
ultimately ancient Egyptians have a variety of looks and fashions. it is silly to stereotype them

---

The ancient Egyptians have a variety of looks and fashions but dressing exactly like Nubians depicted in the same scene is not one of them
It is an anomaly found nowhere else and probably a mistake by the artisans or scribe
-and researchers have recorded other errors in other Egyptian art with text, it does happen

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:



From Seti I's tomb.
This scene is also in another chamber of his tomb.
It no doubt has mistakes in both art and text.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:



From Seti I's tomb.
This scene is also in another chamber of his tomb.
It no doubt has mistakes in both art and text.

---

what are the mistakes?

I'm also wondering why this illustration has the beginning of the herd at the bottom instead of the top

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quote:

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Originally posted by the questioner:
i hope you know this is a copy of the original

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yes I know that and have seen photos of the original, that's why I referred to it as an "illustration" not an actual wall painting
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 




The figures at top are also in the lower photo left side wall, two of the four
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Here, let me reword it clearer.

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:


From Seti I's tomb.
This scene is also in another chamber of his tomb.
In that other chamber it no doubt has mistakes in both art and text.

---

what are the mistakes?

I'm also wondering why this illustration has the beginning of the herd at the bottom instead of the top

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:

Another mistake, or anomaly, is a pastiche person, part TmHw and part aAmw.
It's an earlier wted ethnic swap, or rather a conflation really.

---

In Seti I ?

Is there a photo of that?
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 


Nehesi at lower right.
Would love HD head zoom.
Wanna make non-metric comparison of the profiles.

Is Ramesses the only one with available photos?
Burton photoed the error free Seti but the painting was in bad shape.
The mistaken Seti is a Lepsius Denkmaeler facs.
What about the Merneptah? Any photos?
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Seti I



 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Merneptah

LINK







https://www.pinterest.com/pin/395050198535763797/



 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

the second form left glpyh is Gardiner A1 correct? Is it commonly this abstracted?




Rameses III

______________________________

two legit photos of the tomb wall.
As we can see the color settings on the camera will emphasize certain colors according to the preference of the photographer
 

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Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

the second form left glpyh is Gardiner A1 correct? Is it commonly this abstracted?




Rameses III

______________________________

two legit photos of the tomb wall.
As we can see the color settings on the camera will emphasize certain colors according to the preference of the photographer

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quote:

---

One thing though.
Here we see very Nehesy looking Rt Rmt.
Where are Aamu or Temehu looking Rt Rmt in any authentic painting of this very same scene?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:

Another mistake, or anomaly, is a pastiche person, part TmHw and part aAmw.

---

what photo or illustration shows this?



I don't know if you are referring to this but in my opinion this figure is TmHw (Libyan) with no suggestion of ambiguously aAmw
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
P'shaw but these aint no new news to your eyes.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=006463#000038

I posted this on ES March 25th 2007, some time in the past.
Manansala hipped me to it on his TaSeti yahoogroup ages ago.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the questioner:


i find it interesting that ancient Egyptians identified as ancient Ethiopians (Nubians)

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by the questioner:


i find it interesting that ancient Egyptians identified as ancient Ethiopians (Nubians)

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How did they go about identifying themselves as Nubians?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by the questioner:


i find it interesting that ancient Egyptians identified as ancient Ethiopians (Nubians)

---

How did they go about identifying themselves as Nubians?

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i don't get your question

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
P'sha but these aint no news to your eyes.


I posted this on ES some time in the past.
Manansala hipped me to it on his TaSeti yahoogroup ages ago.

---

.

^^^ This is from Seti I right?__________and about this figure on the right ^^^

If so please identify which figure below is the same




 

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Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:


i find it interesting that ancient Egyptians identified as ancient Ethiopians (Nubians)

---

How did they go about identifying themselves as Nubians?

---

i don't get your question

---

You said the Egyptians identified as ancient Nubians.
Please describe in words how they identified as Nubians.

---

quote:

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http://manuampim.com/ramesesIII.htm

AFRICANA STUDIES
THE “TABLE OF NATIONS” SCENE IN THE TOMB OF RAMSES III

Prof. Manu Ampim

The one thing that is consistent about these scenes is that the *order* does not change

: the Egyptians are always shown as the *first group* on the far left next to the god Heru (Horus);

then the Aamw second;

the Nubians are always the third group from the left;

and the Tjhnw are the fourth group from the left.

---

Above an error Manu Ampim makes.





denkmaler illustration
top row, tomb of Merenptah
bottom row Rameses III (KV11)

While the tomb of Merenptah corresponds to the aforementioned order that he said was consistent

1) Egyptians
2) Aamw
3) Nubians
4) Tjhnw

Yet in Rameses III the order is not consistent to that order

1) Egyptians (marked as Egyptians (?) in Nubian attire)
2) Tjhnw
3) Nubians
4) Aamw

Without even getting into who the first figures are in Rameses III they are followed by Tjhnw.
That is not the aforementioned order, it is supposed to be Aamw second





^^ this photo verifies the denkmaler which shows Libyans second at Rameses III
- but they are fourth position in the other tombs.

Manu Ampim said the order was consistent but made no mention that Tjhnw and Aamw are not in an order consistent with the other tombs

So when we wonder why the first figures marked as Egyptians have the same skin tone and clothing as the Nubians we notice that the Libyans and Asiatics are also not in the traditional order
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the questioner:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:


i find it interesting that ancient Egyptians identified as ancient Ethiopians (Nubians)

---

How did they go about identifying themselves as Nubians?

---

i don't get your question

---

You said the Egyptians identified as ancient Nubians.
Please describe in words how they identified as Nubians.

---

i don't know why your asking the question when you know the answer

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:


i find it interesting that ancient Egyptians identified as ancient Ethiopians (Nubians)

---

How did they go about identifying themselves as Nubians?

---

i don't get your question

---

You said the Egyptians identified as ancient Nubians.
Please describe in words how they identified as Nubians.

---

i don't know why your asking the question when you know the answer

---

I am asking the question because I do not believe the premise assumption you believe. That would be clarified if you simply answered the question

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quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:


i find it interesting that ancient Egyptians identified as ancient Ethiopians (Nubians)

---

How did they go about identifying themselves as Nubians?

---

i don't get your question

---

You said the Egyptians identified as ancient Nubians.
Please describe in words how they identified as Nubians.

---

i don't know why your asking the question when you know the answer

---

I am asking the question because I do not believe the premise assumption you believe. That would be clarified if you simply answered the question

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your trying to troll

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
The dark brown white kilted man reps rT rmT as glyph left of his hand indicates.
The glyph under his hands is the plural.
He is the last of four Egyptians.

By sacred text the aAm rank must be next.

The tawny kilt of many colors with tsitsith man reps aAM.
The throwstick and owl glyphs right of his hand spells aAm.
He is the first of four! Asiatics'.

But see.
His head, hairlock behind ear falling onto chest and goatee.
That's like Tjehenu since Dyn 5.
Tjehenu are a subset of toward Maghreb TmH peoples.

A pastiche Libyan 'Asiatic'.

Not only that, the text above the pastiche is from the next scene, scene 31.
Normally that text would come after the last of four TmHw.

This crew must've been in a big hurry! 😂

---

^^ Is this Denkmaeler ?

I just verified the Denkmaeler on Rameses III corresponds with the weird herd order in the actual tomb photo.
But whoever made the above Seti I illustration (assuming you are certain is from that tomb) I don't see it corresponding to the photo.
The first aAm doesn't have a side lock nor do any of the other aAm and as you said the gylphs don't seem to be placed right



 

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Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:


i find it interesting that ancient Egyptians identified as ancient Ethiopians (Nubians)

---

How did they go about identifying themselves as Nubians?

---

i don't get your question

---

You said the Egyptians identified as ancient Nubians.
Please describe in words how they identified as Nubians.

---

i don't know why your asking the question when you know the answer

---

I am asking the question because I do not believe the premise assumption you believe. That would be clarified if you simply answered the question

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your trying to troll

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"trolling" is when somebody goes off a topic, get personal and tries to get people to react emotionally

None of that going on here.

You may not even realize it but your avoidance in answering that question reveal a logical fallacy
called a False Dilemma or False Dichotomy - Giving two choices when in actuality there could be more choices possible.

Example: You either knocked the glass over this morning or you did it this afternoon. Which is it? .
Example: Do you still beat your wife?

So here the person is asked a question which if one were to answer it one would be tricked into accepting a premise. The other choices are unfairly excluded, that the person may not have knocked the glass over or beaten their wife. It's like a police interrogation type tactic.

You may not know it but you presented a False Dilemma and I have noticed it and won't be falling into that trap

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
You are in error.
Manu Ampim is correct.

You have the tail wagging the dog.

The sacred religious afterlife text is the principal thing.

You're acting like the text was meant to illustrate the painting.

Ludicrous.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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http://manuampim.com/ramesesIII.htm

AFRICANA STUDIES
THE “TABLE OF NATIONS” SCENE IN THE TOMB OF RAMSES III

Prof. Manu Ampim

The one thing that is consistent about these scenes is that the *order* does not change

: the Egyptians are always shown as the *first group* on the far left next to the god Heru (Horus);

then the Aamw second;

the Nubians are always the third group from the left;

and the Tjhnw are the fourth group from the left.

---

---

Manu Ampim is wrong here. The statement here is about the order of the figures and he said

" The one thing that is consistent about these scenes is that the *order* does not change"

"scenes" is visual and in his article he shows the scene just like Diop put it on the cover of his book.

Yet when we look at the scene Libyans comes before Nubians. So it's messed up right there, they are supposed to be last " the order does not change" he said but in the scene (keyword scene as opposed to text the very example we are looking at the order did change.




He is so anxious to state that the " order does not change" with intent to show that the first figures are Egyptian that he completely ignores that the order is messed up already, before we even looked at the two sets of Nubian garbed figures!


http://manuampim.com/ramesesIII.htm

this is not to say some of his critique of the other researchers is correct in that they avoid the reality of what is on that wall more than he does

but the thing is when you actually look at it is questionable in more ways than one - and that is what he avoids
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Trust me.
I let the painting wag the text when I first looked into this 20 years ago too.
So I argued with Manu Ampim about it on either Manansala's or Robin Walker's yahoogroup.

Then I buckled down and really studied.
I studied to learn.
I didn't study to prove a point.

It took weeks of researching through books in physical libraries as well as net sources.

I read the text on tomb walls.
I read the text on various sarcophagi.
I compared them for nuances.

The textual order never varied, nowhere, not once.

Whether in the running text or the caption the hieroglyphs order is

code:

---

TEXT                CAPTION
r-T rmT             r-T rmT 
aAm rmT w           aA-m w
nH H-s rmT w        nH-H-s w
T-m-H rmT w         T-mH w

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
[QB] You're not paying attention.

I told you the anomaly is in a different chamber.

Seti I's tomb replicates BG 4:5:30 twice, each in it's own chamber.

---

So when you said "This crew must've been in a big hurry! "
you meant the Egyptian artisans crew making possible erros not a flaw in this facsimile illustration crew.

You are saying it doesn't match the photos I showed because it is the same scene done again in another chamber in the same tomb. I didn't realize that
So I would like to see a photo of it but there may not be one online, if not very hard to find.

This thing, plus the text skipping thing it just raises more questions in my mind as to assuming that these Nubian garbed figures

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
... is how ancient Egypt portrayed themselves,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:


i find it interesting that ancient Egyptians identified as ancient Ethiopians (Nubians)

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^^ these assumptions disregard other possibilities

- and these other problems with Seti I, and wth the Asiatic and Libyan order switch at Rameses III only add more questionability to these assumptions
and assumption stated again below



 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Moral of the story.

Don't rely on a holy afterlife resurrection for judgement text's illustration be your trump card for ethnic identity.

Tribute scenes are way much better than that.
Also triumphal scenes and those head blow ones too.
 

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Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
 
the lioness please explain the "false dilemma" i supposedly presented
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

'.

.


 

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Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
 

^^^
here are the facts
1. the name of these men according to the hieroglyphics are Rmtw which means Egyptian

2. according to you and the walls these men are indistinguishable from the Nehesu (kushites)

3. there are no depictions of ancient Egyptians as Asiatics or indo-European.

4. by the appearance of these men, proves that the Egyptians identified with the physicality of the Ethiopians(kushites)

if any of these facts are incorrect please correct me
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:



^^^ then why are these ancient Egyptians depicted the same way ancient Nubians are?
It proves there is no difference between the dress of Egyptians and Nubians

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quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
the lioness please explain the "false dilemma" i supposedly presented

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:



^^^ then why are these ancient Egyptians depicted the same way ancient Nubians are?
It proves there is no difference between the dress of Egyptians and Nubians

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
the lioness please explain the "false dilemma" i supposedly presented

---

After I put a lot of work in suggesting that when an artist put in a figures dressed like a Nubians and with the same skin tone as the Nubians are commonly depicted in Egyptian art into the Egyptian text position in this scene it could have been a mistake

you then ask me "why are these ancient Egyptians depicted the same way ancient Nubians are? "

So your question assumes the figure is an Egyptian
who happens to be dressed like a Nubian and you are speaking to me, someone who does not believe that is an Egyptian despite being labeled that way.
That is a waste of time. If I believe the figure is not Egyptian then there is no need for me to explain why the figure is dressed like a Nubian

So if I were to answer the question about why the figure was dressed like a Nubian it would confirm that i think figure is an Egyptian and I just need to explain why the figure is dressed that way.

Let's say a person is accused of beating their child but the person said they didn't do it.

You then ask the person "was last Thursday the first time you beat your child?"

The person says "no"
The question is a set up

The next question is "so when was the first time?"

Then the person said "there was no first time I never did that"

So the person asking the question is wasting the person's time with that question about Thursday.
That is the false dilemma. The questioner already knows the person is claimng to have not beaten their child yet against logic they ask about Thursday

- they think if the person is lying they can use this trick them with the question to make them slip up and confess to beating the child and instead say something like "no it was on Sunday" oops

I don't have time for these rhetorical games and trick questions.

I already made argumentation why, right or wrong,an opinion why I don't think that is an Egyptian.

A legitimate question posed to me would be "how could that not be an Egyptian if it was labeled that way?"

The answer is a scribe could have laid out the text with gaps for the artist to come in later and put in the figures.
But the artists confused the hieroglyphs and put the wrong figure next to them. That is one possibility

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
by the appearance of these men, proves that the Egyptians identified with the physicality of the Ethiopians(kushites)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
you can continue to call something that is not trolling "trolling"
and maybe if you say it enough times it will come true

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:
by the appearance of these men, proves that the Egyptians identified with the physicality of the Ethiopians(kushites)

---

this is called circular logic another logic fallacy

and this item in this one tomb looked at in isolation and ignorance to the context is not proof

And it's a much bigger assumption than the one I make, that maybe something is a mistake by an artist. Compared to you who is trying to make a statement that this picture and text proves the Egyptians thought this thing you think they thought

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you can call it "fallacy" all you want but i just stick to the facts


Are these men not indistinguishable from the Nubians?

by the appearance of these men, proves that the Egyptians identified with the physicality of the Ethiopians(kushites)
 

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Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
 
their name (rmt) is the identity

their portrait is the physicality

"by the appearance of these men, proves that the Egyptians identified with the physicality of the Ethiopians(kushites)"

in case your confused about the meaning of this sentence
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:


Are these men not indistinguishable from the Nubians?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:


Are these men not indistinguishable from the Nubians?

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yes, if you are familiar with Egyptian art you would realize that is a problem and suggests that they are Nubians mislabeled as Egyptian

You are like someone who has never seen a banana.
So I show you one painted blue

and since you have never seen one before you don't sense anything wrong with it

As usual you come to the table with no research, only attempts a rhetorical arguments

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by AshaT:
Which was drawn first the text or the figures? Are there any images of Nehesi from the same tomb?

---

yes there are Nehesi images in the same tomb.
The nehesi are mentioned right after the Tamahu


 

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Posted by AshaT (Member # 22658) on :
 
Idk man seems a bit too deliberate to be a mistake. Are there any more incidents of this labeling "mishap"? If there was info on how the Egyptians made the...murals(?), then it would be settled.
 

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Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by AshaT:
Idk man seems a bit too deliberate to be a mistake. Are there any more incidents of this labeling "mishap"? If there was info on how the Egyptians made the...murals(?), then it would be settled.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by AshaT:
Which was drawn first the text or the figures? Are there any images of Nehesi from the same tomb?

---

 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
No.

Nehesi always follow Asiatic and precede Libyans.

Why Tjemehu are painted where text dictates Aamu?
Nobody alive knows.
Why Assyrians are painted where text dictates Tjemehu?
Nobody alive knows.

Nobody alive knows why Egyptians were painted looking like Nehesians.
Mistake or intentional.
If intentional, then yes.
I agree with the Ramesses III's Nubian/Kushite affinities speculation.

There is no Indo-European breed/herd in the Cattle of Ra.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:

quote:

---

Originally posted by AshaT:
Which was drawn first the text or the figures? Are there any images of Nehesi from the same tomb?

---

yes there are Nehesi images in the same tomb.
The nehesi are mentioned right after the Tamahu

---

 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
I sure wish there's a foto of this.

At the very least, the complete text.

Reading Lepsius' Denkmaeler repro* text for the first time in years.
Now that I'm not working from memory I can tell you.
I can tell you there's potential here for another black-black switcheroo.

The text above the dark brown guy with Egyptian dress and 'du.
That text introduces the Tjemehu.
That means the last Nehesians should be pictured under it.
Yet the caption reads [...]rmT |||

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

Another mistake, or anomaly, is a pastiche person, part TmHw and part aAmw.
It's an earlier wted ethnic swap, or rather a conflation really.

---

In Seti I ?

Is there a photo of that?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
No.

Nehesi always follow Asiatic and precede Libyans.

Why Tjemehu are painted where text dictates Aamu?
Nobody alive knows.
Why Assyrians are painted where text dictates Tjemehu?
Nobody alive knows.

Nobody alive knows why Egyptians were painted looking like Nehesians.
Mistake or intentional.
If intentional, then yes.
I agree with the Ramesses III's Nubian/Kushite affinities speculation.

There is no Indo-European breed/herd in the Cattle of Ra.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:

quote:

---

Originally posted by AshaT:
Which was drawn first the text or the figures? Are there any images of Nehesi from the same tomb?

---

yes there are Nehesi images in the same tomb.
The nehesi are mentioned right after the Tamahu

---

---

^^^
Due to the fact that we do not have all of Ramses III's documents we must assume it was done intentional before we assume it was a mistake. Ramses III's artisans were probably trying to make some kind of point or statement.

The Ancient Egyptians had a great respect for dead kings, so i find it hard that they would disrespect him with a mistake.
 

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Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
 
ultimately shouldn't we be talking about the race of the ancient Egyptians?

I say they were Black Africans.
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Why are you trying to tell me what I created this thread for?

Deshret forum for if you just wanna talk black this black that.

I started this thread to discuss BG 4:5 scene 30 in KV11.

To learn about its anomalies.
To learn its context.
To learn about tomb decoration.

Do you want to know what that scene is an illustration of?
Do you know what that scene's place is in The Gate of Teka Hra?
Do you know chapter 4's place in the whole book.
Do you know what set of literature BG belongs to?

Do you want to know who painted the KV tombs?
Do you know what other projects Ramses 3 had them working on?
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/medina.htm

This is the Egyptology forum where there's more to it than just the race issue.
On the 5 race model Red Indians, Brown Malays, and Yellow Asians are out.
That leaves Black Africans and White Europeans.
By the 5 race model Black Africans created Egypt.
White Europeans were a tiny minority then.
The two merged.
More whites immigrated and became nationalized.

Black scholarship never taught an all black Egypt.
When presenting BG 4:5:30 nHs and rT rmT back in 1981 Doc Ben said:
"Could there be any doubt that the ancient Egyptians of the reign of [pharaohs Ramesses2-6] were in every sense typical of their neighbors in Nubia after looking at the pictures/friezes above from Rameses III in the Valley of the Kings [...]! If so, then these pictures taken inside of the TOMB must change. And who can change them to what kind of evidence to the contrary? Certainly the ancient Egyptian/African artist and or scribes left no doubt who they meant when they painted AN EGYPTIAN from the pictures/friezes above. I am certain you too have realized that the "Egyptians" could have looked like anyone from "Africa, Asia" and/or "Europe" from at least 1675 BCE, at which time the Hyksos invaded and captured The indigenous Africans/Blacks who created the Nile Valley High cultures, Etc."

His caption for the rT rmT reads: Egyptians of Royal Status in Pharaoh Rameses' Family.

That's heavy speculation, but not unreasonable.
We know Ramesses 3 was heavy into Nehesi peoples.
Another theme for this thread, learning about the man who commissioned the tomb.
8 forensic autosome locations show him over half African.
75% of his alleles match today's Sudan and southern Egypt.
He has a rainforest Biaka (pygmy) allele.
San hold 17% of his highest frequency alleles.

Questioner, you can increase theknowledgebase and please help me out with some of the above themes.
Other related themes of your own, them too, please.

BTW Egyptians had so much respect for their dead kings that they busted into and looted tombs.
Sometimes the very men who worked a tomb robbed it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paneb skip to theft
https://www.arce-nc.org/Berens2.htm

Egyptians were just people like you and me.
They got 'thirsty' too.
Some were pious some weren't.
The quarries and mines cross the Wadi Hammamat were worked by the condemned as well as 'professional' miners.
They included villagers from the Valley of the Kings work Town.


Trust me, well worth your time in lieu of the book
John Romer - Ancient Lives 1 of 4 - YouTube
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hnsNwwwHm2I
 

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Posted by AshaT (Member # 22658) on :
 
Yo, a movie or short film or wte with that Paneb guy would be lit! The audacity, lmao.

Thank you so much for the rec, Tukuler, this documentary is amazing! And sort of answers the question. These people were way too meticulous to make such a huge mistake.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Huh, this issue again?




My only issue is not so much the difference in physical appearance, but the difference in dress. Why is the attire of the presumed dark-skinned Egyptian not different from the Nhsy unless he is a Nhsy who became naturalized.
 

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Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
 
Yeah I noticed that too. The man's attire looks like a variation of NK Egypt.
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
What is the purpose of scene 30 in the Gate of Teka Hra?

Why must each herd represent only its own biological breed?

Are any breeds of human cattle related to each other?

There were nationalized Libyans and Asiatics.
Once an Asiatic descendant served as vizier, 2md to the king.

Yet where are Libyan or Asiatic stock or dress reps for rT rmT in the Book of Gates?
Where are these reds repping for native rT rmT or even nationalized Kmtyw anywhere in even non-holy art?


This is not a table of nations.
These are basic stocks of humankind by Nile relative geography.


The painting illumines the text.
What does the text say?
How do you talk about a picture in the scriptures (Bible, Baghavad Gita)?
How can you know what it's about without reading the sacred never changing holy scripture it illustrates?

Analysis without grounding.
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the questioner:

quote:

---

Originally posted by AshaT:
Which was drawn first the text or the figures? Are there any images of Nehesi from the same tomb?

---

yes there are Nehesi images in the same tomb.
The nehesi are mentioned right after the Tamahu

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nassbean:
Cheikh Anta Diop is absolutely not reliable and his works are extremely outdated. Also he never worked in egypt and he compared the ancient egyptian language to sub saharan african languages who were not even from the same linguistic family...And of course at his time genetic data were not yet available. He even said that he found an hieroglyph on a baobab lol ( I can provide the source if needed)

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