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Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
 
Okay so I heard it was from back migration, is that true? And if it is, are populations of men with ~95% v88 ~50% Eurasian? Or would you regard them as fully African? Also, if we know lineages from the Levant contained plenty of L lineages for example, how do we know those lineages similar to the Eurasian lineages in Chad, didn't mix throughout Africa?? Would those Africans be "African?" I'm just asking because I'm trying to sort at what point people think an African is "African."
 

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Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 
Good question, .... Bump.
 

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Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
 
This is the new Phylogentic tree leading to haplgroup R which is now a small sublcalde of K2b2


Some folks (Nobody that has posted) really need to get off Europeans nuts.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
R-V88 is not Eurasian because the mutation did NOT occur in Eurasia. The Mutation occurred in Africa. The oldest know R-V88 is Villabruna dated to about 14,000bc. Fu et al. Guess what? Born in Italy, but had black complexion based upon SLC45A2 and SLC24A5. But the real kicker is he had tropical body proportion . So here is a black skinned man with tropical body proportions, NOT cold adapted like Europeans, carrying R-V88. Off course he was not born in Africa since his body was found in Italy dated 14,000BC. So let me ask YOU the question. Is he and African or European?

My answer ...he is a European since he was born in Italy. But biologically and politically he is a Black European with forefathers from Africa. Is a Nigerian 4 generation down born in Sweden a Swede? Now you see why I don't believe there is any such thing as "race".
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
I understand the confusion. If a Nigerian born in Sweden 4 generations ago is still a Nigerian then Villabruna born in Italy 14000 years ago is still African since he is balck and had tropical body proportions. Right? Man this all twisted? Plasticity?

In case you missed the salient point. Yes, Villabruna is European only because he was born in Europe. But since R-V88 was "born" in Africa it is African.
 

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Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
 

Off the nutsack.
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Oshun:
Okay so I heard it was from back migration, is that true? And if it is, are populations of men with ~95% v88 ~50% Eurasian? Or would you regard them as fully African? Also, if we know lineages from the Levant contained plenty of L lineages for example, how do we know those lineages similar to the Eurasian lineages in Chad, didn't mix throughout Africa?? Would those Africans be "African?" I'm just asking because I'm trying to sort at what point people think an African is "African."

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quote:

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‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups. All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14]. In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome. Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1).

[...]

Three of the seven R-specific mutations (V45, V69 and V88) were previously mapped within haplogroup R [34], whereas the remaining four mutations have been here positioned at the root of haplogroups F (V186 and V205), K (V104) and P (V231) (Figure S1) through the analysis of 12 haplogroup F samples (samples 40–51, in Table S1).

[...]

Figure S1 Structure of the macro-haplogroup CT. For details on mutations see legend to Figure 1. Dashed lines indicate putative branchings (no positive control available). The position of V248 (haplogroup C2) and V87 (haplogroup C3) compared to mutations that define internal branches was not determined. Note that mutations V45, V69 and V88 have been previously mapped (Cruciani et al. 2010; Eur J Hum Genet 18:800–807).

(TIF)
Haplogroup affiliation for 51 Y chromosomes
Table S1 analyzed in this study. (XLS)

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
R-V88 is not Eurasian because the mutation did NOT occur in Eurasia. The Mutation occurred in Africa. The oldest know R-V88 is Villabruna dated to about 14,000bc.

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
R-V88 is not Eurasian because the mutation did NOT occur in Eurasia. The Mutation occurred in Africa. The oldest know R-V88 is Villabruna dated to about 14,000bc.

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
Born in Italy, but had black complexion based upon SLC45A2 and SLC24A5.

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quote:

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Off course he was not born in Africa since his body was found in Italy dated 14,000BC. So let me ask YOU the question. Is he and African or European?


If a Nigerian born in Sweden 4 generations ago is still a Nigerian then Villabruna born in Italy 14000 years ago is still African since he is balck and had tropical body proportions. Right? Man this all twisted? Plasticity?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
[QB] Haplogroups have little to do with the bulk of one's genetic profile

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
Born in Italy, but had black complexion based upon SLC45A2 and SLC24A5.

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You are saying that a black complexion is based on SLC45A2 and SLC24A5 but a white complexion is not based on SLC45A2 and SLC24A5.

I am sorry to tell you. That is also silliness. The statement makes no sense. It's called talking loud and sayin' nothing

quote:

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Off course he was not born in Africa since his body was found in Italy dated 14,000BC. So let me ask YOU the question. Is he and African or European?


If a Nigerian born in Sweden 4 generations ago is still a Nigerian then Villabruna born in Italy 14000 years ago is still African since he is balck and had tropical body proportions. Right? Man this all twisted? Plasticity?

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Talking about 4 generations ago is a complete red herring. You just made that up.

Basal R* is found only in remains from 24,000 years BP at Mal'ta' in Siberia. That is before R1 even existed.

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quote:

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This suggests a remarkable genetic uniformity and little phylogeographic structure over a large geographic area of the pre-Neolithic populations. Using Approximate Bayesian Computation, a model of genetic continuity from Mesolithic to Neolithic populations is poorly supported. Furthermore, analyses of 1.34% and 0.53% of their nuclear genomes, containing about 50,000 and 20,000 ancestry informative SNPs, respectively, show that these two Mesolithic individuals are not related to current populations from either the Iberian Peninsula or Southern Europe.

[...]

Indicate that La Bran ̃ a specimens (Figure 1) belong to the U5b haplotype (16192T-16270T).


Figure 2 | Ancestral variants around the SLC45A2 (rs16891982, above) and SLC24A5 (rs1426654, below) pigmentation genes in the Mesolithic genome.



The SNPs around the two diagnostic variants (red arrows) in these two genes were analysed. The resulting haplotype comprises neighbouring SNPs that are also absent in modern Europeans (CEU) (n = 112) but present in Yorubans (YRI) (n = 113). This pattern confirms that the La Braña 1 sample is older than the positive-selection event in these regions. Blue, ancestral; red, derived.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:


Basal R* is found only in remains from 24,000 years BP at Mal'ta' in Siberia. That is before R1 even existed.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:


Basal R* is found only in remains from 24,000 years BP at Mal'ta' in Siberia. That is before R1 even existed.

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The above is not a basal.

Here is the basal of R:


Three of the seven R-specific mutations (V45, V69 and V88) were previously mapped within haplogroup R [34], whereas the remaining four mutations have been here positioned at the root of haplogroups F (V186 and V205), K (V104) and P (V231) (Figure S1) through the analysis of 12 haplogroup F samples (samples 40–51, in Table S1).


This was taken outside of Africa.

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You don't understand

from the above article, the reference:

[34]

34. Cruciani F, Trombetta B, Sellitto D, Massaia A, Destro-Bisol G, et al. (2010) Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages. Eur J Hum Genet 18: 800–807

The R-V88 coalescence time was estimated at 9200–5600 kya




Anything to the left on this chart is an ancestor M173 aka R1 is the oldest shown before mutations split into R1a and R1b.
Progressive subclades to the right.
The ancestor to M173, basal R* aka M207 is not shown because the article is about R1


_____________________________________



^ M207 that is basal R*
It has only been found in Siberia thus far

After this basal R* two mutations formed R1 and R2
R1 is M173 and R2 is M479

Then from each of these, like children, emerged sub clades R1a and R1b (M343)
and further downstream of R1 are sub clades V88 and P297, far from being basal R, the oldest original form of R, M207
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
:rolleyes: You and your psychological issues.

Villabruna is a black man from the tropics. Do the research.

There is no unsupervised ADMIXTURE chart showing Villabruna with global populations as with KOS14. Why? When it was done for KOS14 it showed he was a black Makrani.

Time you catch up to how the game is played.

quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku:

Off the nutsack.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

The ancestor to M173, basal R* aka M207 is not shown because the article is about R1


_____________________________________



^ M207 that is basal R*
It has only been found in Siberia thus far

After this basal R* two mutations formed R1 and R2
R1 is M173 and R2 is M479

Then from each of these, like children, emerged sub clades R1a and R1b (M343)
and further downstream of R1 are sub clades V88 and P297, far from being basal R, the oldest original form of R, M207

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SuperEuronut LIAR. M207 is the same as African V45. As a result, M207/V45 was not only found in Siberia.

.



.

The earliest offshoot of M343 was V88, not M269. So V88 is much older than M269 as noted by Kivisld et al 2017.

Stop making stuff up!
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Click on Video
.



 

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Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 
V45 is 173, R1*.

Basal R is one step upstream from from V45.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Elmaestro:
V45 is 173, R1*.

Basal R is one step upstream from from V45.

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quote:

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The V45 mutation is phylogenetically equivalent to M173. Among the other five mutations, V88 defines a new monophyletic clade (R-V88 or R1b1a), which includes haplogroups R-M18 (R1b1a1, formerly R1b1a), R-V8 (R1b1a2), R-V35 (R1b1a3, further subdivided by the V7 mutation to R1b1a3* and R1b1a3a), and R-V69 (R1b1a4)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Elmaestro:
Uh V45 is unindexed in Isogg, can you give me a link to where it's placed phylogenetically?

Cruciani 2010

quote:

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The V45 mutation is phylogenetically equivalent to M173. Among the other five mutations, V88 defines a new monophyletic clade (R-V88 or R1b1a), which includes haplogroups R-M18 (R1b1a1, formerly R1b1a), R-V8 (R1b1a2), R-V35 (R1b1a3, further subdivided by the V7 mutation to R1b1a3* and R1b1a3a), and R-V69 (R1b1a4)

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10.1038/ejhg.2009.231

And would you mind posting a link to where basal V45/M173 being found in an extant population as well also???

I don't mind either way if R* is african or not, I just get excited when looking at this subclade because it has 'complex population history' written all over it, and to quote Xyyman, "not all Africans are Africans"

most African V88 carriers are considered SSA's lol and look there's obviously deep-rooted interactions between ancient Africans (both north and south of the Sahara) and Eurasians. A lot of factors point to there being minimal/neglegent Europe -> Africa migrations. R1 in africa could have came from the east and dispersed in multiple directions shaped by the geographic landscape.

Western european R1 could have very well came from north Africa, and bidrectional geneflow could have shaped North africa AND Southwest Europe during the dryphase via interactions over Gibraltar.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
LOL. It is unindexed in ISOGG today, this was not the case in 2010. Now it is not indexed to allow researchers rewrite the genetic history of African R1. now that researchers are accepting the fact that V88 emerged first from 343, how long before they claim it is also the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa.

I was not relying on Cruciani 2010.My source was ISOGG 2010. As my Grandma used to say :Find a fool and Bump his head." In otherwords, if a person does no do adequate research you tell him any lie and he will believe it.

. [/QB]

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LOL,
ISOGG source on V88 is based solely on Cruciani 2010,
Cruciani who discovered V88 in that same year!!


 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

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Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
[QB] Haplogroups have little to do with the bulk of one's genetic profile

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stop living in denial, thanks

Haplogroups have a lot to do with the bulk of one's genetic profile

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
[QB] Haplogroups have little to do with the bulk of one's genetic profile

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stop living in denial, thanks

Haplogroups have a lot to do with the bulk of one's genetic profile

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I have nothing to deny. No denial here. So I will say it again. Haplogroups have little to do with your total ancestry.

Arent your charts missing the Fang thus giving west Africa a false 0%?

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The Fang are a Central African group, estimated population 1.2 million




^ Map of Central Africa

The Fang people live in the tiny Equatorial Guinea as well as northern Gabon, and southern Cameroon.

.


,




https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987365/

Published online 2010 Jan 6. doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2009.231
PMCID: PMC2987365
Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages

Fulvio Cruciani,
 

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Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
 
...
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
Lioness can you explain why the title is "Molecular Dissection Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree"? since I don't understand.


The "from the above article, the reference" is not from this paper. It's from a different paper. smh

Can you explain why Cruciani places this R-M207 as the starting point, connect to seven mutations?
Can you explain the existence with these seven mutations?

quote:

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‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups. All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14]. In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome. Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1).

[...]

Three of the seven R-specific mutations (V45, V69 and V88) were previously mapped within haplogroup R [34], whereas the remaining four mutations have been here positioned at the root of haplogroups F (V186 and V205), K (V104) and P (V231) (Figure S1) through the analysis of 12 haplogroup F samples (samples 40–51, in Table S1).

[...]

Figure S1 Structure of the macro-haplogroup CT. For details on mutations see legend to Figure 1. Dashed lines indicate putative branchings (no positive control available). The position of V248 (haplogroup C2) and V87 (haplogroup C3) compared to mutations that define internal branches was not determined. Note that mutations V45, V69 and V88 have been previously mapped (Cruciani et al. 2010; Eur J Hum Genet 18:800–807).

(TIF)
Haplogroup affiliation for 51 Y chromosomes
Table S1 analyzed in this study. (XLS)

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--Fulvio Cruciani et al.

Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
This chart is totally contradictory. This version of ISOGG does not even mention V45, The version I saw claimed M207 and V45 were the same.
.


.

lioness you claim that it was based on Crusiani 2010, this is false if it was based on his paper it would have noted that V45 was " phylogenectically equivalent to M173", as stated by Crusiani in the first paragraph of the paper below the alledged ISOGG 2010 image in this photograph.

Moreover, the ISOGG page under Corrections/Additions since January 2010 mentions the addition of V45 and V88 yet only V88 is listed and not not V45 in the index. When I saw the index in 2010 it was stated that V45 was equivalent to M207. Clearly you removed it to support your lie.

Euronut. Stop making stuff up!

.

Reference:

https://www.academia.edu/17205175/POSSIBLE_AFRICAN_ORIGIN_OF_Y-CHROMOSOME_R1-M173

.
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
Clyde,

The chart from above by ISOGG is based on older data, not the younger data.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Moreover, the ISOGG page under Corrections/Additions since January 2010 mentions the addition of V45 and V88 yet only V88 is listed and not not V45 in the index. When I saw the index in 2010 it was stated that V45 was equivalent to M207. Clearly you removed it to support your lie.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Lioness can you explain why the title is "Molecular Dissection Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree"? since I don't understand.


The "from the above article, the reference" is not from this paper. It's from a different paper. smh

Can you explain why Cruciani places this R-M207 as the starting point, connect to seven mutations?
Can you explain the existence with these seven mutations?

quote:

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‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups. All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14]. In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome. Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1).

[...]

Three of the seven R-specific mutations (V45, V69 and V88) were previously mapped within haplogroup R [34], whereas the remaining four mutations have been here positioned at the root of haplogroups F (V186 and V205), K (V104) and P (V231) (Figure S1) through the analysis of 12 haplogroup F samples (samples 40–51, in Table S1).

[...]

Figure S1 Structure of the macro-haplogroup CT. For details on mutations see legend to Figure 1. Dashed lines indicate putative branchings (no positive control available). The position of V248 (haplogroup C2) and V87 (haplogroup C3) compared to mutations that define internal branches was not determined. Note that mutations V45, V69 and V88 have been previously mapped (Cruciani et al. 2010; Eur J Hum Genet 18:800–807).

(TIF)
Haplogroup affiliation for 51 Y chromosomes
Table S1 analyzed in this study. (XLS)

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--Fulvio Cruciani et al.

Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree

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quote:

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Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree
Rosaria Scozzari, Andrea Massaia, Eugenia D’Atanasio, Natalie M. Myres, Ugo A. Perego, Beniamino Trombetta, Fulvio Cruciani
Published: November 7, 2012

Abstract

One hundred and forty-six previously detected mutations were more precisely positioned in the human Y chromosome phylogeny by the analysis of 51 representative Y chromosome haplogroups and the use of 59 mutations from literature. Twenty-two new mutations were also described and incorporated in the revised phylogeny. This analysis made it possible to identify new haplogroups and to resolve a deep trifurcation within haplogroup B2. Our data provide a highly resolved branching in the African-specific portion of the Y tree and support the hypothesis of an origin in the north-western quadrant of the African continent for the human MSY diversity.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Clyde,

The chart from above by ISOGG is based on older data, not the younger data.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Clyde,

The chart from above by ISOGG is based on older data, not the younger data.

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What Clyde likes to do is if he doesn't like current information he goes digging in outdated data, articles when the data was brand new and not well understood. That way he can add the "Winter's Spin"

However as you point out this is 2017 not 2010 and genetic discoveries have been made since 2010 and they have to update the phylogenetic sequence to reflect reality.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
The Fang are like 80% of Guinea and they were reported to have the highest frequency of R1. They are a west African tribe. Meh I see only 4 west African groups were sampled. Sample size issues.

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quote:

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• (i) Motivation
  There were a number of populations for which we did not have access to unadmixed samples. To learn about the history of such populations, we needed to adjust for the presence of non-Native ancestry. We used three complementary approaches to do this. The concordance of results from all these approaches increases our confidence in the key findings of this study.
  
  (1) Restricting to unadmixed samples: We restricted some analyses to 163 Native American samples (34 populations) without any evidence of recent European or African admixture (Note S2). A limitation of these studies, however, is that we could not analyze 16 populations in which all individuals were inferred to have some degree of recent admixture.
  
  (2) Local ancestry masking: We identified segments of the genome in each individual that had an appreciable probability of harboring non-Native American or Siberian ancestry. We then created a “masked” dataset that treated genetic data in these sections as missing (Note S4).
  
  (3) Ancestry Subtraction: We explicitly corrected for the effect of the estimated proportion of European and African in each sample by adjusting the value of f4-statistics by the amount that is expected from this admixture. This is discussed in what follows.
  
  (ii) Details of Ancestry Subtraction
  Assume that we have an accurate estimate of African and European ancestry for each sample (whether it is an individual or a pool of individuals). In practice, we used the ADMIXTURE k=4 estimates, because as described below, they appear to be accurate for Native American populations (with the possible exception of Aleuts as we discuss below). We can then define:
  
  a = % African ancestry in a test sample
  e = % European ancestry in a test sample
  1-a-e = % Native ancestry
  
  For many of our analyses, we are computing f4 statistics, whose values are affected in a known way by European and African admixture. Thus, we can algebraically correct for the effect of recent European or African admixture on the test statistics, obtaining an “Ancestry Subtracted” statistic that is what is expected for the sample if it had no recent European or African ancestry.
  
  The main context in which we compute f4 statistics is in our implementation of the 4 Population Test, to evaluate whether the allele frequency correlation patterns in the data are consistent with the proposed tree ((Unadmixed, Test),(Outgroup1, Outgroup2)), where the Unadmixed population is a set of Native American samples assumed to derive all of their ancestry from the initial population that peopled America, the Test population is another Native American population, and the two outgroups are Asian populations. An f4 statistic consistent with zero suggests that the Unadmixed and Test populations form a clade with no evidence of ancestry from more recent streams of gene flow from Asia. If the Test population harbors recent European or African ancestry, however, a significant deviation of this statistic from zero would be expected, making it difficult to interpret the results. We thus compute a linear combination of f4 statistics that is expected to equal what we would obtain if we had access to the Native American ancestors of the Test population without recent European or African admixture:
  
  S_1=(f_4 (Unadmixed,Test;Out1,Out2)-(a) f_4 (Unadmixed,Yoruba;Out1,Out2)-(e) f_4 (Unadmixed,French;Out1,Out2))/(1-a-e) (S3.1)
  
  Intuitively, this statistic is subtracting the contribution to the f4 statistic that is expected from their proportion a of West African-like ancestry (Yoruba), and their proportion e of West Eurasian-like ancestry (French). We then renormalize by 1/(1-a-e) to obtain the statistic that would be expected if the sample was unadmixed.
  
  A potential concern is that the African and European ancestry in any real Native American test sample is not likely to be from Yoruba and French exactly; instead, it will be from related populations. However, S1 is still expected to have the value we wish to compute if we choose the outgroups to be East Asians or Siberians. The reason is that genetic differences between Yoruba and the true African ancestors, and French and the true European ancestors, are not expected to be correlated to the frequency differences between two East Asian or Siberian outgroups. Specifically, the allele frequency differences are due to history within Africa or Europe, which is not expected to be correlated to allele frequency differences within East Asia and within Siberia.
  
  (iii) Ancestry Subtraction gives results concordant with those on unadmixed samples
  To compare the performance of our three approaches to address the confounder of recent European and African admixture, we computed 48 = 8×6 statistics of the form f4(Unadmixed, Test; Han, San). We choose “Unadmixed” to be one of 8 Native American groups from Meso-America southward that have sample sizes of at least two and for which all samples are inferred to be unadmixed by ADMIXTURE k=4 (Chane, Embera, Guahibo, Guaymi, Karitiana, Kogi, Surui and Waunana). We choose “Test” to be one of 8 Native American populations from Meso-America southward with at least two samples that are entirely unadmixed, and that also have at least two samples that have >5% non-Native admixture according to the ADMIXTURE k=4 analysis (Aymara, Cabecar, Pima, Tepehuano, Wayuu and Zapotec1). This allows us to compare results on admixed and unadmixed samples from the same population.
  
  If the Test population harbors European or West African admixture that we have not corrected, we expect to see a significant deviation of the statistic from zero. For example, f4(Karitiana, French; Han, San), corresponding to the statistic expected for an entirely European-admixed Native American population, is significant at Z = 45 standard errors from zero, and f4(Karitiana, Yoruba; Han, San), which gives the f4-value we would expect for an entirely West African-admixed Native American population, is significant at Z = 101.
  
  Figure S3.1 shows the scatterplots of Z-scores we obtain without Ancestry Subtraction, with Ancestry Subtraction, and with local ancestry masking (Note S4). The x-axis shows data for the unadmixed samples from each Test population, while the y-axis shows the results for the >5% admixed samples from the same populations. We find that:
  • Without Ancestry Subtraction there are significant deviations from zero (|Z|>3) (Fig. S3.1A)
  • With Ancestry Subtraction, there are no residual |Z|-scores >3 (Figure S3.1B)
  • With local ancestry masking (Note S4), there are again no residual |Z|-scores >3 (Figure S3.1C), showing that this method also appears to be appropriately correcting for the admixture.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Moreover, the ISOGG page under Corrections/Additions since January 2010 mentions the addition of V45 and V88 yet only V88 is listed and not not V45 in the index. When I saw the index in 2010 it was stated that V45 was equivalent to M207. Clearly you removed it to support your lie.

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I out up an image of the summary, not the whole indexing of all the numerous clades and alleles as per 2010.
ISOGG doesn't do the primary research. They compile informations from researchers, in this case Cruciani. He is the one who mapped these clades. "V45" is not even current terminology. The current terminology is R173

Only one confirmed example of basal R* has been found, in 24,000 year old remains, known as MA1, found at Mal'ta near Lake Baikal in Siberia.

That is M207 and the DNA analysis on those remains was only published in 2014

That's in Siberia and it far predates any form of R in Africa or elsewhere, so stop the nonsense

Also notice the very scant occurrence of M269 in Africa as I have shown in the charts

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Malta Man was not M207, he was just R1.

.

.

The researchers characterized Malta man as M207 to make it appear that he was ancestral to the R haplogroup to make it appear haplogroup R originated in Europe.

The Figure SI 5a, is interesting because if you notice while there were 8 mutations for haplogroup R, there were 11 mutations for haplogroup E. The researchers could have claimed that Malta man was any Y-chromosome haplogroup that supported the assumptions they already held about this hominid.
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Lioness can you explain why the title is "Molecular Dissection Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree"? since I don't understand.


The "from the above article, the reference" is not from this paper. It's from a different paper. smh

Can you explain why Cruciani places this R-M207 as the starting point, connect to seven mutations?
Can you explain the existence with these seven mutations?

quote:

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‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups. All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14]. In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome. Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1).

[...]

Three of the seven R-specific mutations (V45, V69 and V88) were previously mapped within haplogroup R [34], whereas the remaining four mutations have been here positioned at the root of haplogroups F (V186 and V205), K (V104) and P (V231) (Figure S1) through the analysis of 12 haplogroup F samples (samples 40–51, in Table S1).

[...]

Figure S1 Structure of the macro-haplogroup CT. For details on mutations see legend to Figure 1. Dashed lines indicate putative branchings (no positive control available). The position of V248 (haplogroup C2) and V87 (haplogroup C3) compared to mutations that define internal branches was not determined. Note that mutations V45, V69 and V88 have been previously mapped (Cruciani et al. 2010; Eur J Hum Genet 18:800–807).

(TIF)
Haplogroup affiliation for 51 Y chromosomes
Table S1 analyzed in this study. (XLS)

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--Fulvio Cruciani et al.

Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree

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Your assumption is that in an article entitled Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree that any clade discussed is the earliest form of a haplogroup. That is not the case.

quote:

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Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree
Rosaria Scozzari, Andrea Massaia, Eugenia D’Atanasio, Natalie M. Myres, Ugo A. Perego, Beniamino Trombetta, Fulvio Cruciani
Published: November 7, 2012

Abstract

One hundred and forty-six previously detected mutations were more precisely positioned in the human Y chromosome phylogeny by the analysis of 51 representative Y chromosome haplogroups and the use of 59 mutations from literature. Twenty-two new mutations were also described and incorporated in the revised phylogeny. This analysis made it possible to identify new haplogroups and to resolve a deep trifurcation within haplogroup B2. Our data provide a highly resolved branching in the African-specific portion of the Y tree and support the hypothesis of an origin in the north-western quadrant of the African continent for the human MSY diversity.

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^ They are discussing mutations stemming out of CT, they are not all basal clades

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quote:

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Abstract

Our data provide a highly resolved branching in the African-specific portion of the Y tree and support the hypothesis of an origin in the north-western quadrant of the African continent for the human MSY diversity.

[…]


A new deep branch within the “out of Africa” haplogroup C was also identified

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Clyde,

The chart from above by ISOGG is based on older data, not the younger data.

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What Clyde likes to do is if he doesn't like current information he goes digging in outdated data, articles when the data was brand new and not well understood. That way he can add the "Winter's Spin"

However as you point out this is 2017 not 2010 and genetic discoveries have been made since 2010 and they have to update the phylogenetic sequence to reflect reality.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Clyde,

The chart from above by ISOGG is based on older data, not the younger data.

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What Clyde likes to do is if he doesn't like current information he goes digging in outdated data, articles when the data was brand new and not well understood. That way he can add the "Winter's Spin"

However as you point out this is 2017 not 2010 and genetic discoveries have been made since 2010 and they have to update the phylogenetic sequence to reflect reality.

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I think what Clyde is doing is comparison of old and new data. How it sometimes contradicts, changes or expands.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Clyde,

The chart from above by ISOGG is based on older data, not the younger data.

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What Clyde likes to do is if he doesn't like current information he goes digging in outdated data, articles when the data was brand new and not well understood. That way he can add the "Winter's Spin"

However as you point out this is 2017 not 2010 and genetic discoveries have been made since 2010 and they have to update the phylogenetic sequence to reflect reality.

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I think what Clyde is doing is comparison of old and new data. How it sometimes contradicts, changes or expands.

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You are correct. For example R-M207 in Africa is given new nomenclatures every time you see new studies, to make it appear that R-M207 is only found in Europe. We have already noted how ISOGG 2010, listed V45 as the same as M207. Interestingly, Scozzari, R., Massaia, A., D’Atanasio, E., Myres, N. M., Perego, U. A., Trombetta, B., & Cruciani, F. (2012). Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree. PLoS ONE, 7(11), e49170, http://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0049170, notes that another former M207 clade in Cameroon is now named V69 or R1b1a4, as noted in Table S1 (SUPPLEMENT).

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quote:

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The R-V88 coalescence time was estimated at 9200–5600 kya, in the early mid Holocene.

--Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages.
Fulvio Cruciani

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So you are getting the figure from Cruciani as referenced by ISOGG. They didn't do the primary research. It was Cruciani.

But you didn't reference the source of that date.
Additionally it said "9200–5600 kya"

meaning they don't know if it's 9,200 years old or 5,600 years old or somewhere in that range.

But you want it to be as old as possible so you left that part out and say this newly discovered haplogroup is 9,200 years old as if it's written in stone

That is the like of what you routinely. You only pick out information that confirms what you already believe, what you want to believe and if the you don't like all the current information you go back to older information paste that on and play the semantics game and mix old with new to match your preconceived propaganda aka "The Winter's Spin"
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
^ Since you mentioned Cruciani as the prime source.

I am still waiting for you to explain why, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and are positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1), before leaving Africa. Why is that? lol


Explain why are the four remainder mutations of R positioned at the root of haplogroups F (V186 and V205)? Why is that? lol


Further more do C, CT, CF, F and DE have an African origin? lol
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
The TMRCA of V88 was 9200 (Cruciani et al, 2010). Kivisild et al 2017 appears to date V88 to around 18,000 kya according to Figure 7.Toomas Kivisild (2017).The study of human Y chromosome variation through ancient DNA. web page

The article is interesting. It is most interesting because it places V88 in ancient Europe. Kivisild (2017) also made it clear that V88 is the earliest offshoot of R-M343 .


.



.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


I'm going to explain how to properly read this chart because Clyde has a version up to small to read
At top is the full chart. Then we have a detail of the left portion of the chart. That potion uses the color red to show branches of R that correspond to locations in Europe.

The next chart is the enlarged left portion of the top chart showing the locations on a map of Europe.

At the bottom is the right portion of the top chart.
Where it says R1b there is a split, the branch at left is P297.

The branch at right has four red colored European branches of R1b.
These are not R-V88 but instead distant relatives

V88 is the black branch at far right only. It the earliest offshoot of R1b but it is not the ancestor of it's distant relatives indicated by the red lines.

The descendants of V88 would be under the black line extending down from V88 but not shown on this chart the sub clades M18, V35 and V69.
As referenced in the article, all of the primary DNA analysis regarding V88 in the above Kivisild 2017 comes from

Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages.

Cruciani 2010


Clyde wants to detach the information from it's source so he can spin and slant the information for use as propaganda
 

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Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 
From what data I've seen the Central African groups with high proportions of R1b-V88 have modest to almost no Eurasian admixture.

The first known branch off of R1b is R1b2-PH155, a rare branch scattered around Eurasia; the second is R1b1c-V88, which separated from the rest of R1b1-L754 about 15-19 000 years ago. At present the most basal branches of V88 are known from Europe, but this is based on private DNA testing, which is obviously not evenly distributed. Cruciani and others did test for one of the older branches, R1b-M18, which was found in Sardinia, Corsica, and Lebanon, but not in Africa.

Few African R1b-V88 samples have been tested to high resolution, but so far they are almost all R1b1c2b1-Y7771, which is about 5-6000 years old; this is in agreement with the Y STR haplotype network and TMRCA estimate from Cruciani's reasonably large sample. This subclade is found in both North and Sub-Saharan Africa, also in Eurasia but much more rarely, so I would guess the Eurasian examples back-migrated from Africa.

The recent paper on the Sahel turned up a Toubou from Chad who seems to be on the R1b1c2b2-FGC20973 branch, which is mostly known from the Near East. Including that one we have a TMRCA of Sahelian R1b-V88 (R1b1c2b-Y8447) of about 6-8000 years. But there is too little data to say whether this is the actual founding age of African V88, it could be older or younger.

The only R1b-V88 found in ancient DNA so far AFAIK was R1b1c2-Y7771 found in an early Neolithic (Epicardial culture) farmer from northern Spain dating to about 5100 BC.

The usual theory is that pastoralists carrying V88 spread south during the Green Sahara pastoralist period (~8-5000 years ago) and settled in the Sahel as the climate dried out. When and from where they got to North Africa is debatable; likely with some of the first farmers or pastoralists to bring livestock from the Near East.
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
Lioness what are the chromosomes for M173 and M343?

https://static-content.springer.com/image/art%3A10.1007%2Fs00439-017-1773-z/MediaObjects/439_2017_1773_Fig7_HTML.gif


So lioness, explain.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Since you mentioned Cruciani as the prime source.

I am still waiting for you to explain why, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and are positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1), before leaving Africa. Why is that? lol


Explain why are the four remainder mutations of R positioned at the root of haplogroups F (V186 and V205)? Why is that? lol


Further more do C, CT, CF, F and DE have an African origin? lol

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quote:

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Besides the haplogroup C lineages that are atypical to present-day populations living in the area the Y chromosome pool of the early Holocene hunter-gatherer and farmer populations of Europe and Middle East was characterised by a diverse set of haplogroups, such as G, H, I, J and R, which are restricted in their present-day distribution by and large to Europe, Middle East, North Africa, South and Central Asia.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Since you mentioned Cruciani as the prime source.

I am still waiting for you to explain why, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and are positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1), before leaving Africa. Why is that? lol


Explain why are the four remainder mutations of R positioned at the root of haplogroups F (V186 and V205)? Why is that? lol


C, CT, CF, F and DE have an African origin, the chromosomes that make up R cluster with the aforementioned Hg's before leaving Africa! lol

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quote:

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We estimated the TMRCA of human Y chromosomes as 338 kya (95% CI = 237–581 kya). Using a joint likelihood20 and the same mutation rate, we also estimated a divergence time between A0 chromosomes and the human reference as 202 kya (95% CI = 125–382 kya), a time that is older than that previously obtained by Cruciani et al. (142 kya).6 This discrepancy in the age of A0 is due to the fact that the earlier study did not utilize mutation rates based on recently obtained whole-genome sequence data.14; 15; 16; 17 ; 18 If we were to use the higher mutation rate (1.0 × 10−9 per base per year6) rather than a realistic range derived from whole-genome sequencing (4.39 × 10−10 − 7.07 × 10−10), the estimated TMRCA for the tree incorporating A00 as the basal lineage would be 209 kya, which is only slightly older than current estimates of the TMRCA of mtDNA and the age of the oldest AMH fossil remains. We note, however, that the higher mutation rate produces an estimate for the common ancestor of all non-African Y chromosome haplogroups (C through T) of ∼39 kya6 (i.e., versus ∼63 kya for the mutation rate used here). It is difficult to reconcile the younger estimate with the timing of the out-of-Africa dispersal on the basis of the analyses of autosomal DNA21 and the fossil record outside of Africa.22; 23; 24 ; 25 Regardless of which mutation rate is applied, the analysis of relative ages of nodes26 shows that the TMRCA of the A00-rooted tree is 67% older (95% CI = 35%–126%) than that of the A0-rooted tree.


Genotyping of a DNA sample that was submitted to a commercial genetic-testing facility demonstrated that the Y chromosome of this African American individual carried the ancestral state of all known Y chromosome SNPs. To further characterize this lineage, which we dubbed A00 (see Figure S1, available online, for proposed nomenclature), we sequenced multiple regions (totaling ∼240 kb) of the X-degenerate portion of this chromosome, as well as a subset of these regions (∼180 kb) on a chromosome belonging to the previously known basal lineage A1b (which we rename here as A0).

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quote:

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The deepest branching separates A1b from a monophyletic clade whose members (A1a, A2, A3, B, C, and R) all share seven mutually reinforcing derived mutations (five transitions and two transversions, all at non-CpG sites). To retain the information from the reference MSY tree13 as much as possible, we named this clade A1a-T (Figure 1). Within A1a-T, the transversion V221 separates A1a from a monophyletic clade (called A2-T) consisting of three branches: A2, A3, and BT, the latter being supported by ten mutations (Figure 1)


.

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—Fulvio Cruciani et al

A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal Diversity in Africa

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929711001649
 

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Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 
i'm bumping this old thread so that the interesting new one about Green Sahara Y DNA doesn't get dragged down by people being retarded about V88. please put all bitching lying crying and denial about V88 in this thread not the other one.

okay the new paper provides some welcome finer detail about African V88 but the big picture is the same. xyyman should look at figure S6 and plot the subclades on a map lol. basal clades still in Sardinia. btw pre-V88 of some kind has been found in Mesolithic fishermen of the Danube in Serbia (~8000 years old). there is also the early farmer (~7000 years old) from northern Spain who belongs to V1589/Y7771, which is old news.

main clade (V4963, prob Y8447) about 7-9 000 years old which fits with beginning of arid phase pastoralism; V4963* in North Cameroon makes it as early in the Sahel as elsewhere. quite a bit of sharing with North Africa in the not too distant past (5000 years and less). V4553 looks like the Jewish clade FGC20980 or thereabouts. V5776 is new, Egyptian.

too bad no samples from Gabon and very few from South Cameroon. (1 Ewondo R1b-V1589*, close kin to Fang but what can you say with n=1). still good though.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 

 

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Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 
don't just look at the tree of NGS samples sequenced in this study, there is a lot more than that. Figure S6 and Table S4 in the supplementary information include a much larger set of samples.

there are 2 R1b-V1589* from Central Africa - a Fulani and a Moundang from North Cameroon - which would go where you have marked "basal node", but they are not on the NGS tree.

the R1b-V88 tree goes:
I) R1b-M18 - Sardinia and Corsica
II) R1b-V2197/Y8451 (~8000-9500 years old)
...A) R1b-V35 - Sardinia
...B) R1b-V4963/Y8447 (~7000-8800 years old)
......1) R1b-V1589/Y7771 - main African clade (~5200-6200 years old)
......2) R1b-V4453/FGC20980 - Jewish (~1200 years old, pink sample on the NGS tree)
......3) R1b-V5776 - 1 North Egyptian (dark blue sample on NGS tree)
......4) R1b-V4963* - 1 man from Benin and 2 from Northern Cameroon - may be same or different branches (Beninese is dark brown on the NGS tree)

then under R1b-V1589 loads of branches.

branch 234, with Beninese S184 (dark brown) and Moroccan Berber S200 (light blue), is R1b-V4759 (~3700-5700 years old). it also includes a Yoruba and 13 Siwa Berbers (14% frequency, most common subclade for them).

branch 240, which you have marked as "Sahel", is R1b-V6255. it seems most common in Sara (Central Sudanic) people from southern Chad (not Sahelian), but is found at lower frequency in a variety of people from Lake Chad region and again in 2 Siwa Berbers and 1 North Egyptian.

Siwa Oasis (and Egypt generally) is actually quite diverse in R1b-V88 subclades.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
So the oldest node of R-V88 is found in Africa(Fulbe-Sahel) and NOT Sardinia, although there was an ancient separation. They did not include SSA further south? . Added to that the diversity of R-V88 in Africa is off the charts. All this point to the Sahara was probably the source populations for most of the lineage. The Sahel and parts of Europe is where these people fled to with the encroaching desert.


To those who are following. Cape Verde phenotype is reflective of ancient La Brana, Villabruna, Loschbour and now Cheddar man. They have a high frequency of R1b but it has not been resolved whether it is R1b-V88. I am thinking if the Cape Verde R1b is tested at higher resolution it may be R-V88 and much older than those in not only in Europe but the Fulbe/Sahel.



@Capra – What do you say to the Cape Verdeans? Are they “love children” from the Portuguese colonialist ala Davidski? Get their dataset.



-

edit- I will look at what you just posted next
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Eugenia D’Atanasio†, Beniamino Trombetta†, Maria Bonito, Andrea Finocchio, Genny Di Vito, Mara Seghizzi, Rita Romano, Gianluca Russo, Giacomo Maria Paganotti, Elizabeth Watson, Alfredo Coppa, Paolo Anagnostou, Jean-Michel Dugoujon, Pedro Moral, Daniele Sellitto, Andrea Novelletto and Fulvio Cruciani. (2018).The peopling of the last Green Sahara revealed by high-coverage resequencing of trans-Saharan patrilineages. Genome Biology 201819:20 . https://doi.org/10.1186/s13059-018-1393-5


The study claims that V88 is of European origin.

quote:

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Outside Africa, both A3-M13 and R-V88 harbour sub-lineages geographically restricted to the island of Sardinia and both seem to indicate ancient trans-Mediterranean contacts. The phylogeography of A3-M13 suggests that the direction of the movement was from Africa to Sardinia, while R-V88 topology indicates a Europe-to-Africa migration. Indeed, our data suggest a European origin of R-V88 about 12.3 kya, considering both the presence of two Sardinian R-V88 basal clades (R-M18 and R-V35) and that the V88 marker arose in the R-M343 background, which in turn includes Near-Eastern/European lineages [52].

It is worth noting that the arrival of R-V88 in the Sahara seems to have occurred between 8.67 and 7.85 kya (considering as an upper limit the time estimates of the last node including a European-specific lineage, while the lower limit is the coalescence age of all the African-specific lineages), refining the time frame of the trans-Saharan migration proposed in previous studies [37, 56]. The route of R-V88 toward the lake Chad basin probably passed through northeastern Africa rather than Arabia, considering the absence of R-V88 in the Horn of Africa. Interestingly, both A3-M13 and R-V88 European sub-clades coalesced in ancient times (> 7.62 kya for A3-M13/V2742 and between 12.34 and 8.67 kya for R-V88/M18 and R-V88/V35) (Additional file 2: Figures S2 and S5). So it is possible that both clades were widespread in southern Europe, where they have been replaced by the Y haplogroups brought by the following recurrent migration waves from Asia

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quote:

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Outside Africa, both A3-M13 and R-V88 harbour sub-lineages geographically restricted to the island of Sardinia and both seem to indicate ancient trans-Mediterranean contacts. The phylogeography of A3-M13 suggests that the direction of the movement was from Africa to Sardinia, while R-V88 topology indicates a Europe-to-Africa migration. Indeed, our data suggest a European origin of R-V88 about 12.3 kya, considering both the presence of two Sardinian R-V88 basal clades (R-M18 and R-V35) and that the V88 marker arose in the R-M343 background, which in turn includes Near-Eastern/European lineages [52].

It is worth noting that the arrival of R-V88 in the Sahara seems to have occurred between 8.67 and 7.85 kya (considering as an upper limit the time estimates of the last node including a European-specific lineage, while the lower limit is the coalescence age of all the African-specific lineages), refining the time frame of the trans-Saharan migration proposed in previous studies [37, 56]. The route of R-V88 toward the lake Chad basin probably passed through northeastern Africa rather than Arabia, considering the absence of R-V88 in the Horn of Africa. Interestingly, both A3-M13 and R-V88 European sub-clades coalesced in ancient times (> 7.62 kya for A3-M13/V2742 and between 12.34 and 8.67 kya for R-V88/M18 and R-V88/V35) (Additional file 2: Figures S2 and S5). So it is possible that both clades were widespread in southern Europe, where they have been replaced by the Y haplogroups brought by the following recurrent migration waves from Asia

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This article is nothing more than conjecture. whereas, we have archaeological evidence of Africans migrating into Europe, practicing Bell Beaker Culture, who introduced V88, there is no archaeological evidence of a back migration from Europe to Africa.

This article is nothing more than a White Supremacist article, based solely on statistical analysis without any ancient DNA. Sardinia was not the source of V88 in Europe. LOL, they have now made the African clades R-V88 (R-M18 and R-V35) European.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
2010 appears to have been an important year for geneticists. It was then that they developed the idea that African R1 carriers were mainly V88.

This was a momentous time because at the same time they found the DNA of the ancient Europeans. It was after this finding that researchers and ISOGG started changing the terminology and nomenclature for V88 and its clades to attempt to make the ancient Europeans Indo-Europeans, eventhough the craniometrics illustrated they were Blacks not whites.

It amazes me that Eurocentric researchers can white Black people out of history even when the evidence tells a different story.


Fu et al (2016) gives a fine discussion of the genetic history of Europe. It is interesting to note that the authors claim that the oldest R1b-M343 lineages, is 14 KYA Villabruna Man from Italy. The Villabruna man carried R1b1.

To disguise the African ancestry of the ancient Europeans Geno-Hamiticists change the name/number of African haplogroups to differentiate them from Europeans carrying the same haplogroup. R1b1 and Rlb1a were clades belonging to V88.

R1b1 and R1b1a do not change just because you give it a different number. Below is Cruciani et al (2010).
.


.


References:


Fu, Q., Posth, C., Hajdinjak, M., Petr, M., Mallick, S., Fernandes, D., … Reich, D. (2016). The genetic history of Ice Age Europe. Nature, 534(7606), 200–205. http://doi.org/10.1038/nature17993

.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


^^ fake chart made by Clyde
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:


^^ fake chart made by Clyde

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]

^^ fake chart made by Clyde

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Lying Euronut.

http://olmec98.net/v88_12.png

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Here is your reference

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987365/

Eur J Hum Genet. 2010 Jul; 18(7): 800–807.
Published online 2010 Jan 6. doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2009.231
PMCID: PMC2987365

Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages

Fulvio Cruciani et al





________________________

You are misrepresenting the branching.

You snuck in R-M73 as downstream of V88 but it is not downstream of V88 it is part of a separate branch downstream of
P297

R-M73 is common only in Siberia and Central Asia.

M73 is the dominant haplogroup among the Kumandin a Turkic people of the Altai Republic in Russia

___________

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3276666/

Mitochondrial DNA and Y Chromosome Variation Provides Evidence for a Recent Common Ancestry between Native Americans and Indigenous Altaians

Matthew C. Dulik,1 Sergey I. Zhadanov,1,2 Ludmila P. Osipova,2 Ayken Askapuli,1,3 Lydia Gau,1 Omer Gokcumen,1,4 Samara Rubinstein,1,5 and Theodore G. Schurr1,∗


As with the mtDNA data set, we also observed differences in NRY haplogroup composition among northern Altaian populations, where each ethnic group shared haplogroups with the other two, yet had distinct haplogroup profiles. Overall, Kumandins had the most disparate haplogroup frequencies of the northern Altaians, exhibiting similar number of N-P43 chromosomes as the Chelkans, which were quite similar to those found in Khanty and Mansi populations in northwestern Siberia. In addition, a large proportion of Kumandin Y chromosomes belonged to R-M73. This haplogroup is largely restricted to Central Asia but has also been found in Altaian Kazakhs and other southern Siberians. In fact, Myres et al. noted two distinct clusters of R-M73 STR haplotypes, with one of them containing Y chromosomes bearing a 19 repeat allele for DYS390, which appears to be unique to R-M73. Interestingly, the majority of Kumandin R-M73 haplotypes fell into this category, although haplotypes from both clusters are found in southern Siberia
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-018-1393-5


R1b-V88 migration through Southern Italy into Green Sahara corridor, and the Afroasiatic connection

Carlos Quiles Afroasiatic, Anthropology, Archaeology, Culture, Genetics, Indo-European, Linguistics, Proto-Indo-European, Uralic February 13, 2018


Abstract

Background

Little is known about the peopling of the Sahara during the Holocene climatic optimum, when the desert was replaced by a fertile environment.

Results

In order to investigate the role of the last Green Sahara in the peopling of Africa, we deep-sequence the whole non-repetitive portion of the Y chromosome in 104 males selected as representative of haplogroups which are currently found to the north and to the south of the Sahara. We identify 5,966 mutations, from which we extract 142 informative markers then genotyped in about 8,000 subjects from 145 African, Eurasian and African American populations. We find that the coalescence age of the trans-Saharan haplogroups dates back to the last Green Sahara, while most northern African or sub-Saharan clades expanded locally in the subsequent arid phase.

Conclusions

Our findings suggest that the Green Sahara promoted human movements and demographic expansions, possibly linked to the adoption of pastoralism. Comparing our results with previously reported genome-wide data, we also find evidence for a sex-biased sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africans, suggesting that historical events such as the trans-Saharan slave trade mainly contributed to the mtDNA and autosomal gene pool, whereas the northern African paternal gene pool was mainly shaped by more ancient events.


A consequence of this is that there is a strong differentiation in the Y chromosome haplogroup composition between the northern and sub-Saharan regions of the African continent. In the northern area, the predominant Y lineages are J-M267 and E-M81, with the former being linked to the Neolithic expansion in the Near East and the latter reaching frequencies as high as 80 % in some north-western populations as a consequence of a very recent local demographic expansion [8, 9, 10]. On the contrary, sub-Saharan Africa is characterised by a completely different genetic landscape, with lineages within E-M2 and haplogroup B comprising most of the Y chromosomes. In most regions of sub-Saharan Africa, the observed haplogroup distribution has been linked to the recent (~ 3 kya) demic diffusion of Bantu agriculturalists, which brought E-M2 sub-clades from central Africa to the East and to the South [11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17]. On the contrary, the sub-Saharan distribution of B-M150 seems to have more ancient origins, since its internal lineages are present in both Bantu farmers and non-Bantu hunter-gatherers and coalesce long before the Bantu expansion [18, 19, 20].

In spite of their genetic differentiation, however, northern and sub-Saharan Africa share at least four patrilineages at different frequencies, namely A3-M13, E-M2, E-M78 and R-V88.

A3-M13 is typical of eastern Africa, where it is found with a frequency as high as 40 % and is prevalent in the Nilo-Saharan populations, in particular among Nilotic pastoralists [14, 18, 21]. A3-M13 chromosomes have also been observed in central and northern Africa, at frequencies ranging from 1 to 7 % [12, 18, 22, 23]. Outside Africa, this haplogroup has been found at very low frequency in both the Middle East and Sardinia [23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30].

As described above, E-M2 is a sub-Saharan clade which has been often associated with the Bantu expansion. However, E-M2 chromosomes have also been found at low frequencies (2–10 %) in northern Africa [8, 9, 22, 23, 31, 32].

E-M78 is a widespread lineage, with significant frequencies in Africa, Europe and the Middle East [33, 34]. Within the African continent, three E-M78 sub-clades (E-V22, E-V12 and E-V264) show different frequencies in different regions. E-V22 is mainly an eastern African sub-haplogroup, with frequencies of more than 80 % in the Saho population from Eritrea, but it has also been reported in Egypt and Morocco [34, 35, 36]. E-V12 is relatively frequent in northern and eastern Africa, but it has also been reported outside Africa at lower frequencies [33, 34, 35]. The vast majority of the eastern African E-V12 chromosomes belong to the internal clade E-V32, which has also been observed in northern and central Africa at very low frequencies [12, 33, 34, 35]. E-V264 is subdivided into two sub-clades: E-V65, common in northern Africa; and E-V259, which includes few central African chromosomes [33, 34, 35].

R-V88 has been observed at high frequencies in the central Sahel (northern Cameroon, northern Nigeria, Chad and Niger) and it has also been reported at low frequencies in northwestern Africa [37]. Outside the African continent, two rare R-V88 sub-lineages (R-M18 and R-V35) have been observed in Near East and southern Europe (particularly in Sardinia) [30, 37, 38, 39]. Because of its ethno-geographic distribution in the central Sahel, R-V88 has been linked to the spread of the Chadic branch of the Afroasiatic linguistic family [37, 40].

In order to investigate the role of the last Green Sahara in the peopling of Africa, we performed targeted next generation sequencing (NGS) of ~ 3.3 Mb of 104 Y chromosomes mostly belonging to these four lineages. We also analysed the geographic distribution of 142 informative single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) by genotyping about 8000 male subjects from 145 world-wide populations (including 17 populations from literature), with a particular focus on the African ethnic groups. Our findings were consistent with the hypothesis that the Green Sahara allowed extensive human movements, excluding recent historical events, such as the Arab slave trade, as a major determinant of the male gene pool of present-day northern African populations.


Outside Africa, both A3-M13 and R-V88 harbour sub-lineages geographically restricted to the island of Sardinia and both seem to indicate ancient trans-Mediterranean contacts.

The phylogeography of A3-M13 suggests that the direction of the movement was from Africa to Sardinia,

while R-V88 topology indicates a Europe-to-Africa migration.

Indeed, our data suggest a European origin of R-V88 about 12.3 kya, considering both the presence of two Sardinian R-V88 basal clades (R-M18 and R-V35) and that the V88 marker arose in the R-M343 background, which in turn includes Near-Eastern/European lineages [52]. It is worth noting that the arrival of R-V88 in the Sahara seems to have occurred between 8.67 and 7.85 kya (considering as an upper limit the time estimates of the last node including a European-specific lineage, while the lower limit is the coalescence age of all the African-specific lineages), refining the time frame of the trans-Saharan migration proposed in previous studies [37, 56]. The route of R-V88 toward the lake Chad basin probably passed through northeastern Africa rather than Arabia, considering the absence of R-V88 in the Horn of Africa. Interestingly, both A3-M13 and R-V88 European sub-clades coalesced in ancient times (> 7.62 kya for A3-M13/V2742 and between 12.34 and 8.67 kya for R-V88/M18 and R-V88/V35) (Additional file 2: Figures S2 and S5). So it is possible that both clades were widespread in southern Europe, where they have been replaced by the Y haplogroups brought by the following recurrent migration waves from Asia [57].




The multifurcated structure of the E-M2 is suggestive of a first demographic expansion, which occurred about 10.5 kya, at the beginning of the last Green Sahara (Fig. 2; Additional file 2: Figure S4). After this initial expansion, we found that most of the trans-Saharan lineages within A3-M13, E-M2 and R-V88 radiated in a narrow time interval at 8–7 kya, suggestive of population expansions that may have occurred in the same time (Fig. 2; Additional file 2: Figures S3, S4 and S6). Interestingly, during roughly the same period, the Saharan populations adopted pastoralism, probably as an adaptive strategy against a short arid period [1, 62, 63]. So, the exploitation of pastoralism resources and the reestablishment of wetter conditions could have triggered the simultaneous population expansions observed here. R-V88 also shows signals of a further and more recent (~ 5.5 kya) Saharan demographic expansion which involved the R-V1589 internal clade. We observed similar demographic patterns in all the other haplogroups in about the same period and in different geographic areas (A3-M13/V3, E-M2/V3862 and E-M78/V32 in the Horn of Africa, E-M2/M191 in the central Sahel/central Africa), in line with the hypothesis that the start of the desertification may have caused massive economic, demographic and social changes
 

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Posted by Lion (Member # 22807) on :
 
LOL

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-018-1393-5


R1b-V88 migration through Southern Italy into Green Sahara corridor, and the Afroasiatic connection

Carlos Quiles Afroasiatic, Anthropology, Archaeology, Culture, Genetics, Indo-European, Linguistics, Proto-Indo-European, Uralic February 13, 2018


Abstract

Background

Little is known about the peopling of the Sahara during the Holocene climatic optimum, when the desert was replaced by a fertile environment.

Results

In order to investigate the role of the last Green Sahara in the peopling of Africa, we deep-sequence the whole non-repetitive portion of the Y chromosome in 104 males selected as representative of haplogroups which are currently found to the north and to the south of the Sahara. We identify 5,966 mutations, from which we extract 142 informative markers then genotyped in about 8,000 subjects from 145 African, Eurasian and African American populations. We find that the coalescence age of the trans-Saharan haplogroups dates back to the last Green Sahara, while most northern African or sub-Saharan clades expanded locally in the subsequent arid phase.

Conclusions

Our findings suggest that the Green Sahara promoted human movements and demographic expansions, possibly linked to the adoption of pastoralism. Comparing our results with previously reported genome-wide data, we also find evidence for a sex-biased sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africans, suggesting that historical events such as the trans-Saharan slave trade mainly contributed to the mtDNA and autosomal gene pool, whereas the northern African paternal gene pool was mainly shaped by more ancient events.


A consequence of this is that there is a strong differentiation in the Y chromosome haplogroup composition between the northern and sub-Saharan regions of the African continent. In the northern area, the predominant Y lineages are J-M267 and E-M81, with the former being linked to the Neolithic expansion in the Near East and the latter reaching frequencies as high as 80 % in some north-western populations as a consequence of a very recent local demographic expansion [8, 9, 10]. On the contrary, sub-Saharan Africa is characterised by a completely different genetic landscape, with lineages within E-M2 and haplogroup B comprising most of the Y chromosomes. In most regions of sub-Saharan Africa, the observed haplogroup distribution has been linked to the recent (~ 3 kya) demic diffusion of Bantu agriculturalists, which brought E-M2 sub-clades from central Africa to the East and to the South [11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17]. On the contrary, the sub-Saharan distribution of B-M150 seems to have more ancient origins, since its internal lineages are present in both Bantu farmers and non-Bantu hunter-gatherers and coalesce long before the Bantu expansion [18, 19, 20].

In spite of their genetic differentiation, however, northern and sub-Saharan Africa share at least four patrilineages at different frequencies, namely A3-M13, E-M2, E-M78 and R-V88.

A3-M13 is typical of eastern Africa, where it is found with a frequency as high as 40 % and is prevalent in the Nilo-Saharan populations, in particular among Nilotic pastoralists [14, 18, 21]. A3-M13 chromosomes have also been observed in central and northern Africa, at frequencies ranging from 1 to 7 % [12, 18, 22, 23]. Outside Africa, this haplogroup has been found at very low frequency in both the Middle East and Sardinia [23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30].

As described above, E-M2 is a sub-Saharan clade which has been often associated with the Bantu expansion. However, E-M2 chromosomes have also been found at low frequencies (2–10 %) in northern Africa [8, 9, 22, 23, 31, 32].

E-M78 is a widespread lineage, with significant frequencies in Africa, Europe and the Middle East [33, 34]. Within the African continent, three E-M78 sub-clades (E-V22, E-V12 and E-V264) show different frequencies in different regions. E-V22 is mainly an eastern African sub-haplogroup, with frequencies of more than 80 % in the Saho population from Eritrea, but it has also been reported in Egypt and Morocco [34, 35, 36]. E-V12 is relatively frequent in northern and eastern Africa, but it has also been reported outside Africa at lower frequencies [33, 34, 35]. The vast majority of the eastern African E-V12 chromosomes belong to the internal clade E-V32, which has also been observed in northern and central Africa at very low frequencies [12, 33, 34, 35]. E-V264 is subdivided into two sub-clades: E-V65, common in northern Africa; and E-V259, which includes few central African chromosomes [33, 34, 35].

R-V88 has been observed at high frequencies in the central Sahel (northern Cameroon, northern Nigeria, Chad and Niger) and it has also been reported at low frequencies in northwestern Africa [37]. Outside the African continent, two rare R-V88 sub-lineages (R-M18 and R-V35) have been observed in Near East and southern Europe (particularly in Sardinia) [30, 37, 38, 39]. Because of its ethno-geographic distribution in the central Sahel, R-V88 has been linked to the spread of the Chadic branch of the Afroasiatic linguistic family [37, 40].

In order to investigate the role of the last Green Sahara in the peopling of Africa, we performed targeted next generation sequencing (NGS) of ~ 3.3 Mb of 104 Y chromosomes mostly belonging to these four lineages. We also analysed the geographic distribution of 142 informative single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) by genotyping about 8000 male subjects from 145 world-wide populations (including 17 populations from literature), with a particular focus on the African ethnic groups. Our findings were consistent with the hypothesis that the Green Sahara allowed extensive human movements, excluding recent historical events, such as the Arab slave trade, as a major determinant of the male gene pool of present-day northern African populations.


Outside Africa, both A3-M13 and R-V88 harbour sub-lineages geographically restricted to the island of Sardinia and both seem to indicate ancient trans-Mediterranean contacts.

The phylogeography of A3-M13 suggests that the direction of the movement was from Africa to Sardinia,

while R-V88 topology indicates a Europe-to-Africa migration.

Indeed, our data suggest a European origin of R-V88 about 12.3 kya, considering both the presence of two Sardinian R-V88 basal clades (R-M18 and R-V35) and that the V88 marker arose in the R-M343 background, which in turn includes Near-Eastern/European lineages [52]. It is worth noting that the arrival of R-V88 in the Sahara seems to have occurred between 8.67 and 7.85 kya (considering as an upper limit the time estimates of the last node including a European-specific lineage, while the lower limit is the coalescence age of all the African-specific lineages), refining the time frame of the trans-Saharan migration proposed in previous studies [37, 56]. The route of R-V88 toward the lake Chad basin probably passed through northeastern Africa rather than Arabia, considering the absence of R-V88 in the Horn of Africa. Interestingly, both A3-M13 and R-V88 European sub-clades coalesced in ancient times (> 7.62 kya for A3-M13/V2742 and between 12.34 and 8.67 kya for R-V88/M18 and R-V88/V35) (Additional file 2: Figures S2 and S5). So it is possible that both clades were widespread in southern Europe, where they have been replaced by the Y haplogroups brought by the following recurrent migration waves from Asia [57].




The multifurcated structure of the E-M2 is suggestive of a first demographic expansion, which occurred about 10.5 kya, at the beginning of the last Green Sahara (Fig. 2; Additional file 2: Figure S4). After this initial expansion, we found that most of the trans-Saharan lineages within A3-M13, E-M2 and R-V88 radiated in a narrow time interval at 8–7 kya, suggestive of population expansions that may have occurred in the same time (Fig. 2; Additional file 2: Figures S3, S4 and S6). Interestingly, during roughly the same period, the Saharan populations adopted pastoralism, probably as an adaptive strategy against a short arid period [1, 62, 63]. So, the exploitation of pastoralism resources and the reestablishment of wetter conditions could have triggered the simultaneous population expansions observed here. R-V88 also shows signals of a further and more recent (~ 5.5 kya) Saharan demographic expansion which involved the R-V1589 internal clade. We observed similar demographic patterns in all the other haplogroups in about the same period and in different geographic areas (A3-M13/V3, E-M2/V3862 and E-M78/V32 in the Horn of Africa, E-M2/M191 in the central Sahel/central Africa), in line with the hypothesis that the start of the desertification may have caused massive economic, demographic and social changes

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
R-V88


 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]

^^ fake chart made by Clyde

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Lying Euronut.

http://olmec98.net/v88_12.png

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Here is your reference

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987365/

Eur J Hum Genet. 2010 Jul; 18(7): 800–807.
Published online 2010 Jan 6. doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2009.231
PMCID: PMC2987365

Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages

Fulvio Cruciani et al





________________________

You are misrepresenting the branching.

You snuck in R-M73 as downstream of V88 but it is not downstream of V88 it is part of a separate branch downstream of
P297

R-M73 is common only in Siberia and Central Asia.

M73 is the dominant haplogroup among the Kumandin a Turkic people of the Altai Republic in Russia

___________

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3276666/

Mitochondrial DNA and Y Chromosome Variation Provides Evidence for a Recent Common Ancestry between Native Americans and Indigenous Altaians

Matthew C. Dulik,1 Sergey I. Zhadanov,1,2 Ludmila P. Osipova,2 Ayken Askapuli,1,3 Lydia Gau,1 Omer Gokcumen,1,4 Samara Rubinstein,1,5 and Theodore G. Schurr1,∗


As with the mtDNA data set, we also observed differences in NRY haplogroup composition among northern Altaian populations, where each ethnic group shared haplogroups with the other two, yet had distinct haplogroup profiles. Overall, Kumandins had the most disparate haplogroup frequencies of the northern Altaians, exhibiting similar number of N-P43 chromosomes as the Chelkans, which were quite similar to those found in Khanty and Mansi populations in northwestern Siberia. In addition, a large proportion of Kumandin Y chromosomes belonged to R-M73. This haplogroup is largely restricted to Central Asia but has also been found in Altaian Kazakhs and other southern Siberians. In fact, Myres et al. noted two distinct clusters of R-M73 STR haplotypes, with one of them containing Y chromosomes bearing a 19 repeat allele for DYS390, which appears to be unique to R-M73. Interestingly, the majority of Kumandin R-M73 haplotypes fell into this category, although haplotypes from both clusters are found in southern Siberia

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‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups. All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14]. In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome. Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1).

[...]

Three of the seven R-specific mutations (V45, V69 and V88) were previously mapped within haplogroup R [34], whereas the remaining four mutations have been here positioned at the root of haplogroups F (V186 and V205), K (V104) and P (V231) (Figure S1) through the analysis of 12 haplogroup F samples (samples 40–51, in Table S1).

[...]

Figure S1 Structure of the macro-haplogroup CT. For details on mutations see legend to Figure 1. Dashed lines indicate putative branchings (no positive control available). The position of V248 (haplogroup C2) and V87 (haplogroup C3) compared to mutations that define internal branches was not determined. Note that mutations V45, V69 and V88 have been previously mapped (Cruciani et al. 2010; Eur J Hum Genet 18:800–807).

(TIF)
Haplogroup affiliation for 51 Y chromosomes
Table S1 analyzed in this study. (XLS)

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quote:

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“Our data provide a highly resolved branching in the African-specific portion of the Y tree and support the hypothesis of an origin in the north-western quadrant of the African continent for the human MSY diversity.

[…]

A new deep branch within the “out of Africa” haplogroup C was also identified”

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Brit333:
Haplogroup R originated in EURASIA and any R Africans carry is through a back migration into Africa.

Haplogroup R1B is a Middle Eastern Haplogroup in origin. The Bell Beaker peoples like the majority of Europeans originated in the Middle East.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2010146

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Nope, it DID NOT. It originated in Africa and drifted from there into the near East etc…

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
That was a funny post, considering that Cruciani had another paper out 2 years later.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
why am I supposed to enjoy it says nothing in contradiction to his earlier paper

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quote:

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Abstract

Our data provide a highly resolved branching in the African-specific portion of the Y tree and support the hypothesis of an origin in the north-western quadrant of the African continent for the human MSY diversity.

[…]

A new deep branch within the “out of Africa” haplogroup C was also identified

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
Ish won Egyptsearch Spammer of the Year Award three years in a row , 2014, 2015,2016
he's trying to make a comeback for 2018.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Since you mentioned Cruciani as the prime source.

I am still waiting for you to explain why, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and are positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1), before leaving Africa. Why is that? lol


Explain why are the four remainder mutations of R positioned at the root of haplogroups F (V186 and V205)? Why is that? lol


C, CT, CF, F and DE have an African origin, the chromosomes that make up R cluster with the aforementioned Hg's before leaving Africa! lol

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We estimated the TMRCA of human Y chromosomes as 338 kya (95% CI = 237–581 kya). Using a joint likelihood20 and the same mutation rate, we also estimated a divergence time between A0 chromosomes and the human reference as 202 kya (95% CI = 125–382 kya), a time that is older than that previously obtained by Cruciani et al. (142 kya).6 This discrepancy in the age of A0 is due to the fact that the earlier study did not utilize mutation rates based on recently obtained whole-genome sequence data.14; 15; 16; 17 ; 18 If we were to use the higher mutation rate (1.0 × 10−9 per base per year6) rather than a realistic range derived from whole-genome sequencing (4.39 × 10−10 − 7.07 × 10−10), the estimated TMRCA for the tree incorporating A00 as the basal lineage would be 209 kya, which is only slightly older than current estimates of the TMRCA of mtDNA and the age of the oldest AMH fossil remains. We note, however, that the higher mutation rate produces an estimate for the common ancestor of all non-African Y chromosome haplogroups (C through T) of ∼39 kya6 (i.e., versus ∼63 kya for the mutation rate used here). It is difficult to reconcile the younger estimate with the timing of the out-of-Africa dispersal on the basis of the analyses of autosomal DNA21 and the fossil record outside of Africa.22; 23; 24 ; 25 Regardless of which mutation rate is applied, the analysis of relative ages of nodes26 shows that the TMRCA of the A00-rooted tree is 67% older (95% CI = 35%–126%) than that of the A0-rooted tree.


Genotyping of a DNA sample that was submitted to a commercial genetic-testing facility demonstrated that the Y chromosome of this African American individual carried the ancestral state of all known Y chromosome SNPs. To further characterize this lineage, which we dubbed A00 (see Figure S1, available online, for proposed nomenclature), we sequenced multiple regions (totaling ∼240 kb) of the X-degenerate portion of this chromosome, as well as a subset of these regions (∼180 kb) on a chromosome belonging to the previously known basal lineage A1b (which we rename here as A0).

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The deepest branching separates A1b from a monophyletic clade whose members (A1a, A2, A3, B, C, and R) all share seven mutually reinforcing derived mutations (five transitions and two transversions, all at non-CpG sites). To retain the information from the reference MSY tree13 as much as possible, we named this clade A1a-T (Figure 1). Within A1a-T, the transversion V221 separates A1a from a monophyletic clade (called A2-T) consisting of three branches: A2, A3, and BT, the latter being supported by ten mutations (Figure 1)


.

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quote:

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Originally posted by capra:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
That was a funny post, considering that Cruciani had another paper out 2 years later.

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oh right! i forgot, Ish hasn't passed the Turing test yet. maybe today will be the day, Ish, what's the significance of Cruciani et al 2012?

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Brit333:
Haplogroup R originated in EURASIA and any R Africans carry is through a back migration into Africa.

Haplogroup R1B is a Middle Eastern Haplogroup in origin. The Bell Beaker peoples like the majority of Europeans originated in the Middle East.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2010146

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Nope, it DID NOT. It originated in Africa and drifted from there into the near East etc…

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show us any article that argues R1 originates in Africa

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quote:

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An ancient human back migration from Asia to Africa had already been proposed by Altheide and Hammer (1997) and Hammer et al. (1998, 2001), on the basis of nested cladistic analysis of Y-chromosome data. They suggested that the presence of YAP+ chromosomes in Africa was due to such an event, but this has recently been questioned by Underhill et al. (2001b) and Underhill and Roseman (2001), primarily on the basis of the Asian-specific YAP+ subclade that neutralizes the previous phylogenetic inferences. Thus, the only evidence of a migration from Asia to sub-Saharan Africa that is fully supported by Y-chromosome data relies, at least for the moment, on the finding of haplogroup IX chromosomes in Cameroon.

Group IX Chromosomes in Sub-Saharan Africa: An Asian Origin?

How can the presence of Group IX chromosomes at considerable frequency in Cameroon be explained? A priori, we can envision three possibilities. First, group IX chromosomes in Cameroon are due to rather recent male gene flow from Europe or the Near East. Second, the entire M9 superclade (haplogroups VII–X) has an African origin. Third, group IX chromosomes in Cameroon represent a footprint of a male back migration from Asia to Africa. The first scenario seems to be very unlikely, because only derived haplotypes, carrying the M269 or M17/SRY10831 mutations, have been detected in western Eurasia. The second hypothesis, an African origin of the M9 superclade that includes haplotype 117, would imply a subsequent impressive extinction of derivative lineages in sub-Saharan Africa, since no other haplotypes carrying the M9 mutation (haplogroups VII–X) have been observed in this region (the only exception being represented by a few haplotype 109 chromosomes found in the Fulbe from Cameroon). The last scenario, that of a back migration from Asia to Africa, currently appears to be by far the most plausible. This is because most of the M9 haplotypes (the majority of group VII and VIII lineages, as well as some group IX and X lineages reported by Underhill et al. [2000]) have been observed only in Asia. Moreover, this possibility appears to be further supported by the recent finding of the UTY2+/M173− intermediate haplotype (Karafet et al. 2001) in central and northeastern Asia (the UTY2 marker in the study by Karafet et al. [2001] corresponds to M207 in the present study).

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In conclusion, we present here a Y chromosome phylogenetic tree deeply revised in its root and earliest branches. Our data do not uphold previous models of Y chromosomal emergence 15, 16 and demand a reevaluation of some fundamental ideas concerning the early history of the human genetic diversity we find today. 38–40 Our phylogeny shows a root in central-northwest Africa. Although this point requires further attention, we think that it offers a new prospect from which to view the initial development of our species in Africa.

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I don’t know the technical details of the calibration well here, last I checked the dates for Y chromosomal lineages were a total mess. So I’m not going to express confidence in this specific value, but, it does align well with a suspicion among many people that the idea of modern humans all tracing back to ancestors on the order of ~50,000 years B.P. just isn’t tenable any longer (this excludes the issue of possible admixture with other lineages such as Neandertals).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
It’s in the title:

“Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree “


I have addressed math problems here:

---

ah, i think we'll count that as a pass. congratulations!

you still have absolutely no earthly idea what you are talking about, of course.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 


Subsequent studies dealing with the MSY diversity in Africa have confirmed the presence of R-P25*(xM269) in northern Cameroon at high frequencies23 and, at lower frequencies (mean 5%, range 0–20%), of R-P25* immediately south of Cameroon, in several populations from Gabon.25 Interestingly, chromosomes of haplogroup R-P25/R-M173, ancestral for M269 as well as for other ‘EURASIAN’ DOWNSTREAM MARKERS, have been found to be present in northern Africa (1% in Algeria, 4% in Tunisia, and 2–4% in Egypt).20,23,26 The presence of R-P25 Y chromosomes has also been reported in population groups from the Sudan;27 however, as no internal markers were typed, the sub-haplogroup affiliation of these chromosomes remains undefined. To shed some light on the past demographic processes that determined the present distribution of R-P25* in Africa, we searched for new MSY mutations refining the phylogeny of haplogroup R1b, and surveyed a wide range of African populations (4180 males from 69 populations) for the presence of the R1b haplogroup. More than 3500 subjects from Europe and Asia were also analyzed for the same haplogroup to obtain a better insight into the Asia-to-Africa back migration associated with this haplogroup.


Read more: http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/1458/white-males#ixzz58tUDKFwl


http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/1458/white-males
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
It’s in the title:

“Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree “


I have addressed math problems here:

---

ah, i think we'll count that as a pass. congratulations!

you still have absolutely no earthly idea what you are talking about, of course.

---

quote:

---

According to the current data East Africa is home to nearly 2/3 of the world genetic diversity independent of sampling effect. Similar figure have been suggested for sub-Saharan Africa populations [1]. The antiquity of the east African gene pool could be viewed not only from the perspective of the amount of genetic diversity endowed within it but also by signals of uni-modal distribution in their mitochondrial DNA (Hassan et al., unpublished) usually taken as an indication of populations that have passed through ‘‘recent’’ demographic expansion [33], although in this case, may in fact be considered a sign of extended shared history of in situ evolution where alleles are exchanged between neighboring demes [34].

---

--Jibril Hirbo, Sara Tishkoff et al.

The Episode of Genetic Drift Defining the Migration of Humans out of Africa Is Derived from a Large East African Population Size

PLoS One. 2014; 9(5): e97674.
Published online 2014 May 20. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0097674


So tell, did you solve the bayesian riddle?

Let’s put it this way.

If a Canadian is Egyptsearch and complains about law enforcement mistreatment, how likely is it that the average Canadian complains about law enforcement mistreatment, based on a bayesian model? In fact how many would complain about mistreatment by law enforcement.
 

---

Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 
population 30+ million, sample of 1. why are you making a frigging Bayesian model? your prior is already the answer. holy god man you are trying to teach me statistics now? have you bothered to learn what a gene is yet?

now HOW do you still think, somehow, that R cannot have back-migrated unless E did too? here, a nice simple historical scenario: CT, CF, DE, E all originated in Africa. C, F, D migrated out of Africa, E remained. much later on R arose from F in Asia. some R descendants migrated back to Africa. what is preventing this? don't just cut and paste some shit, don't suddenly change the subject to archaeology. explain. then we can fix whatever your fundamental misunderstanding is.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
It’s in the title:

“Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree “


I have addressed math problems here:

---

ah, i think we'll count that as a pass. congratulations!

you still have absolutely no earthly idea what you are talking about, of course.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
The origin of a haplogroup is suggested by

1) location of oldest human remains found carrying the haplogroup
2) subclade diversity of the haplogroup
4) frequency of the haplogroup
*)


*5) inside of circles xyyman draws on charts

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:

6) For haplogroups flowing from Africa to Eurasia and not the other way around. proof: it is self-evident that all haplogroups found in Africa are African. therefore, if the same haplogroup is found in Eurasia it is still African. therefore it must have originated in Africa. this holds for all haplogroups.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:
^lol

6) Xyyman's Arrow - haplogroups always flow from Africa to Eurasia and not the other way around. proof: it is self-evident that all haplogroups found in Africa are African. therefore, if the same haplogroup is found in Eurasia it is still African. therefore it must have originated in Africa. this holds for all haplogroups.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
It’s in the title:

“Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree “


I have addressed math problems here:

---

ah, i think we'll count that as a pass. congratulations!

you still have absolutely no earthly idea what you are talking about, of course.

---

He thinks CT is R

---

quote:

---

However, clade CT (two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R)

[…]

The phylogenetic relationships we observed among chromosomes belonging to haplogroups B, C, and R are reminiscent of those reported in the tree by Karafet et al.13 These chromosomes belong to a clade (haplogroup BT) in which chromosomes C and R share a common ancestor (Figure 2).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:
population 30+ million, sample of 1. why are you making a frigging Bayesian model? your prior is already the answer. holy god man you are trying to teach me statistics now? have you bothered to learn what a gene is yet?

now HOW do you still think, somehow, that R cannot have back-migrated unless E did too? here, a nice simple historical scenario: CT, CF, DE, E all originated in Africa. C, F, D migrated out of Africa, E remained. much later on R arose from F in Asia. some R descendants migrated back to Africa. what is preventing this? don't just cut and paste some shit, don't suddenly change the subject to archaeology. explain. then we can fix whatever your fundamental misunderstanding is.

---

quote:

---

"haplogroup CF and DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations that successfully colonized Asia. While not proof, the DE and CF bifurcation (Figure 8d ) is consistent with independent colonization impulses possibly occurring in a short time interval."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
[qb]It’s in the title:

“Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree “


I have addressed math problems here:

---

ah, i think we'll count that as a pass. congratulations!

you still have absolutely no earthly idea what you are talking about, of course.

---

He thinks CT is R

---

No dimwit, I never claimed anything like that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:
dude can you please for once in your life just answer the damn question. why does E back-migrating or not have anything to do with R back-migrating like 50 000 years later?

---

So which are older? C, F, D or CF, DE? You can apply a Bayesian model if you want.

The sneaky intrusion of "back migration".

quote:

---

deepest branching separates A1b from a monophyletic clade whose members (A1a, A2, A3, B, C, and R) all share seven mutually reinforcing derived mutations (five transitions and two transversions, all at non-CpG sites).

[…]

clade A (four chromosomes belonging to haplogroups A1a, A1b, A2, and A3), clade B, and clade CT (two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
[qb]It’s in the title:

“Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree “


I have addressed math problems here:

---

ah, i think we'll count that as a pass. congratulations!

you still have absolutely no earthly idea what you are talking about, of course.

---

He thinks CT is R

---

No dimwit, I never claimed anything like that.

---

I'm not sure you're sure what you claimed,
you seem a "little" mixed up

---

quote:

---

However, clade CT (two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R)

[…]

The phylogenetic relationships we observed among chromosomes belonging to haplogroups B, C, and R are reminiscent of those reported in the tree by Karafet et al.13 These chromosomes belong to a clade (haplogroup BT) in which chromosomes C and R share a common ancestor (Figure 2).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:
^lol

6) Xyyman's Arrow - haplogroups always flow from Africa to Eurasia and not the other way around. proof: it is self-evident that all haplogroups found in Africa are African. therefore, if the same haplogroup is found in Eurasia it is still African. therefore it must have originated in Africa. this holds for all haplogroups.

---

^Afrocentricity

---

Says the eurocen-tricks. Because "white is right".

Any mutation from a drift out of African into the near east is acclaimed as eurasian. Tell this is not true.
 

---

Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 
ffs

long ago, about 75 000 years ago, a certain man had two sons, who grew up to have sons of their own. this man (the most recent common ancestor of CT) had a particular set of mutations in his Y chromosome. he transmitted a copy of his Y chromosome (with all these mutations) to his sons, who in turn transmitted it to their sons, and so on. one of the two sons was the forefathers of all CF, one was the forefather of all DE.

now as copies of this Y chromosome were transmitted from father to son, over thousands of years, from time to time new mutations occurred, added to the mutations that the forefather of CT already had. since all of C, DE, and R are descendants of CT, they all have CT's mutations, plus their own sets of mutations.

so, a set of mutations shared by C, R and DE go back to CT. in fact they define CT, they are the reason CT exists. and these CT mutations occurred (probably) before Out-of-Africa. many tens of thousands of years before R came into existence.

okay?
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:
ffs

long ago, about 75 000 years ago, a certain man had two sons, who grew up to have sons of their own. this man (the most recent common ancestor of CT) had had a particular set of mutations in his Y chromosome. he transmitted a copy of his Y chromosome (with all these mutations) to his sons, who in turn transmitted it to their sons, and so on. one of the two sons was the forefathers of all CF, one was the forefather of all DE.

now as copies of this Y chromosome were transmitted from father to son, over thousands of years, from time to time new mutations occurred, added to the mutations that the forefather of CT already had. since all of C, DE, and R are descendants of CT, they all have CT's mutations, plus their own sets of mutations.

so, a set of mutations shared by C, R and DE go back to CT. in fact they define CT, they are the reason CT exists. and these CT mutations occurred (probably) before Out-of-Africa. many tens of thousands of years before R came into existence.

okay?

---

The problem is, your timing is made up (off), because the mutation already was present with in the group (s) who carried the older clades. Okey?

quote:

---

Recently, in a re-sequencing study of the Y chromosome, the root of the tree moved to a new position and several changes at the basal nodes of the phylogeny were introduced [16]. Interestingly, the estimated coalescence age and deep branching pattern of the revised MSY tree appear to be more similar to those of the mtDNA phylogeny [17], [18] than previously reported [1].

[…]


Figure 1. Revised topology of the deepest portion of the human MSY tree.
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/ppreviews-plos-725668748/292707/preview.jpg

---

quote:

---

In conclusion, we present here a Y chromosome phylogenetic tree deeply revised in its root and earliest branches. Our data do not uphold previous models of Y chromosomal emergence 15, 16 and demand a reevaluation of some fundamental ideas concerning the early history of the human genetic diversity we find today. 38–40 Our phylogeny shows a root in central-northwest Africa. Although this point requires further attention, we think that it offers a new prospect from which to view the initial development of our species in Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Either E and R came from outside of Africa ie Eurasia (same region), or both originated in Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QB] The origin of a haplogroup is suggested by

1) location of oldest human remains found carrying the haplogroup
2) subclade diversity of the haplogroup
3) frequency of the haplogroup

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Either E and R came from outside of Africa ie Eurasia (same region), or both originated in Africa.

---

why would they both have to originate on the same continent?

---

Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree

—Fulvio Cruciani, Beniamino Trombetta,Rosaria Scozzari et al.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Either E and R came from outside of Africa ie Eurasia (same region), or both originated in Africa.

---

why would they both have to originate on the same continent?

---

Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree

—Fulvio Cruciani, Beniamino Trombetta,Rosaria Scozzari et al.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:
what part of this are you not getting?

the forefather of CT inherited most of his mutations from BT, those are shared with B. the forefather of BT inherited most of his mutations from A2-T, those are shared with A2 and A3. the forefather of A2-T inherited most of his mutations from A1a-T, those are shared with A1a. and so on. the same mutations are passed on all the way to the present. you and i both carry the mutations that occurred way back then.

that's what the whole tree is based on, which mutations are shared and which aren't.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:
what part of this are you not getting?

the forefather of CT inherited most of his mutations from BT, those are shared with B. the forefather of BT inherited most of his mutations from A2-T, those are shared with A2 and A3. the forefather of A2-T inherited most of his mutations from A1a-T, those are shared with A1a. and so on. the same mutations are passed on all the way to the present. you and i both carry the mutations that occurred way back then.

that's what the whole tree is based on, which mutations are shared and which aren't.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Stop playing games Capra. It is difficult to distinguish between C and R depending on resolution. Thus CT is sometimes the best the result may show. This is seen with some of the Natufian results. Eg E??(xE1b1??). The results or the mutation is not resolved.

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:
what part of this are you not getting?

the forefather of CT inherited most of his mutations from BT, those are shared with B. the forefather of BT inherited most of his mutations from A2-T, those are shared with A2 and A3. the forefather of A2-T inherited most of his mutations from A1a-T, those are shared with A1a. and so on. the same mutations are passed on all the way to the present. you and i both carry the mutations that occurred way back then.

that's what the whole tree is based on, which mutations are shared and which aren't.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Either E and R came from outside of Africa ie Eurasia (same region), or both originated in Africa.

---

why would they both have to originate on the same continent?

---

Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree

—Fulvio Cruciani, Beniamino Trombetta,Rosaria Scozzari et al.

---

Are you capable of answering the question or do you just post article titles?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:
the mutations specific to R are the ones *not* shared with A, C, DE, etc.

---

Okay.



C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome. Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1).


It's a trembling anxious experience for whites to have this nigga ancestry.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
when Ish Gebor can't answer a question he posts an article title, hoping some sense of authority will leave a residue on the question
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
when Ish Gebor can't answer a question he posts an article title, hoping some sense of authority will leave a residue on the question

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:
ok, now actually READ the previous posts again until you get it.

---

You mean this?

The "shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT"


I wonder how the shared chromosomes of haplogroups R were already present in the DE sample? It's really head scratching. Even crazier, is it these are positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT"?
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Where is Beyoku? You want this one brotha? Explain to Lioness the flaws of HIS question

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Stop playing games Capra. It is difficult to distinguish between C and R depending on resolution. Thus CT is sometimes the best the result may show. This is seen with some of the Natufian results. Eg E??(xE1b1??). The results or the mutation is not resolved.

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:
[qb] what part of this are you not getting?

the forefather of CT inherited most of his mutations from BT, those are shared with B. the forefather of BT inherited most of his mutations from A2-T, those are shared with A2 and A3. the forefather of A2-T inherited most of his mutations from A1a-T, those are shared with A1a. and so on. the same mutations are passed on all the way to the present. you and i both carry the mutations that occurred way back then.

that's what the whole tree is based on, which mutations are shared and which aren't.

---

---

The origin of a haplogroup is suggested by

1) location of oldest human remains found carrying the haplogroup
2) subclade diversity of the haplogroup
3) frequency of the haplogroup


what do you get when you apply the above criteria to haplogroup CT ? [/]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
why? - R, T, Q, O, E, G, etc are all found in Africa....ditz!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QB] The origin of a haplogroup is suggested by

1) location of oldest human remains found carrying the haplogroup
2) subclade diversity of the haplogroup
3) frequency of the haplogroup

---

Ish Gebor, what do you get when you apply the above criteria to haplogroup CT ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QB] The origin of a haplogroup is suggested by

1) location of oldest human remains found carrying the haplogroup
2) subclade diversity of the haplogroup
3) frequency of the haplogroup

---

Ish Gebor, what do you get when you apply the above criteria to haplogroup CT ?

---

I posted all of the answers, but for the sake of the argument.

1) Hg A is the oldest. As can be seen in the tree I have posted.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
You mean this?

The "shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT"


I wonder how shared by chromosomes was already present in the DE sample? Even crazier, is it is positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT"?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
why? - R, T, Q, O, E, G, etc are all found in Africa....ditz!

---

because if something is found in Africa it doesn't instantly mean it originated in that form in Africa because some mutations have occurred outside of Africa


The origin of a haplogroup is suggested by

1) location of oldest human remains found carrying the haplogroup
2) subclade diversity of the haplogroup
3) frequency of the haplogroup

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
You mean this?

The "shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT"


I wonder how shared by chromosomes was already present in the DE sample? Even crazier, is it is positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT"?

---

yes, that thing i just explained to you in great detail. you should actually read the explanation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:
i'm demoting you to spambot again Ish. bye.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QB] The origin of a haplogroup is suggested by

1) location of oldest human remains found carrying the haplogroup
2) subclade diversity of the haplogroup
3) frequency of the haplogroup

---

Ish Gebor, what do you get when you apply the above criteria to haplogroup CT ?

---

I posted all of the answers, but for the sake of the argument.

1) Hg A is the oldest. As can be seen in the tree I have posted.

---

CT has some difference from A so in regard to CT
what do you get when you apply the above criteria to haplogroup CT ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Lioness! Lioness! Lioness! A-T is found is Africa!.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
[QB] Remarkable this latest study shows that the genetic drift in human genome diversity came from Africa. And was carried out by small pockets of outmigration Africans, who populated the world. Especially east Africa.

"Why are other populations of humans so much less genetically varied than Africans? The answer, Henn explains, lies in our ancestors’ history; the groups of people that migrated out of Africa and spread throughout other continents were smaller subsets of that original, genetically diverse population. "

"AND WITHIN EACH OF THESE GROUPS THERE IS AN AMAZING AMOUNT OF DIVERSITY,[...] THE DIVERSITY IS INDIGNIOUS TO AFRICAN POPULATIONS":

http://youtu.be/Pjf0qKdzmrc

quote:

---

Colored dots indicate genetic diversity. Each new group outside of Africa represents a sampling of the genetic diversity present in its founder population. The ancestral population in Africa was sufficiently large to build up and retain substantial genetic diversity.

---

--Brenna M. Henna,
L. L. Cavalli-Sforzaa,1, and
Marcus W. Feldmanb,2
Edited by C. Owen Lovejoy, Kent State University, Kent, OH, and approved September 25, 2012 (received for review July 19, 2012)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
The point is ...ALL Major haplogroups from A-T to C-T is found in Africa. ALL!!!!!!!!!

Since Africa is the place of human origins and ALL Major haplogroups are found there we have no other alternatives but conclude all occurred IN Africa. The sub-sub-sub-sub-clades? Maybe not. Like R1b1a2a2aXXXXX etc. All ancestral clades are African. Genes mimic geography. It always had.


Just writing a piece on ESR on Djehutynahkt(U5b2b5) And I am surprised but it looks like the dispoersal of AMH OOA has been very recent. I being more convinced about that.

If the ancestral form of U5b and the major sub-clade U5b1a are BOTH found in Africans. My money is Djehutynahkt(U5b2b5) is an indigenous African

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
The point is ...ALL Major haplogroups from A-T to C-T is found in Africa. ALL!!!!!!!!!

Since Africa is the place of human origins and ALL Major haplogroups are found there we have no other alternatives but conclude all occurred IN Africa. The sub-sub-sub-sub-clades? Maybe not. Like R1b1a2a2aXXXXX etc. All ancestral clades are African. Genes mimic geography. It always had.


Just writing a piece on ESR on Djehutynahkt(U5b2b5) And I am surprised but it looks like the dispoersal of AMH OOA has been very recent. I being more convinced about that.

If the ancestral form of U5b and the major sub-clade U5b1a are BOTH found in Africans. My money is Djehutynahkt(U5b2b5) is an indigenous African

---

because a haplogroup is found in Africa it originated in Africa because some mutations, including major groups have occurred outside of Africa


The origin of a haplogroup is suggested by

1) location of oldest human remains found carrying the haplogroup
2) subclade diversity of the haplogroup
3) frequency of the haplogroup

---

“Yu beez gcracie, yu wuz travbilin ul du wai buck tu thu midle uf Aphricu.”

 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
The point is ...ALL Major haplogroups from A-T to C-T is found in Africa. ALL!!!!!!!!!

Since Africa is the place of human origins and ALL Major haplogroups are found there we have no other alternatives but conclude all occurred IN Africa. The sub-sub-sub-sub-clades? Maybe not. Like R1b1a2a2aXXXXX etc. All ancestral clades are African. Genes mimic geography. It always had.


Just writing a piece on ESR on Djehutynahkt(U5b2b5) And I am surprised but it looks like the dispoersal of AMH OOA has been very recent. I being more convinced about that.

If the ancestral form of U5b and the major sub-clade U5b1a are BOTH found in Africans. My money is Djehutynahkt(U5b2b5) is an indigenous African

---

because a haplogroup is found in Africa it originated in Africa because some mutations, including major groups have occurred outside of Africa


The origin of a haplogroup is suggested by

1) location of oldest human remains found carrying the haplogroup
2) subclade diversity of the haplogroup
3) frequency of the haplogroup

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
[QB] Remarkable this latest study shows that the genetic drift in human genome diversity came from Africa. And was carried out by small pockets of outmigration Africans, who populated the world. Especially east Africa.

"Why are other populations of humans so much less genetically varied than Africans? The answer, Henn explains, lies in our ancestors’ history; the groups of people that migrated out of Africa and spread throughout other continents were smaller subsets of that original, genetically diverse population. "

"AND WITHIN EACH OF THESE GROUPS THERE IS AN AMAZING AMOUNT OF DIVERSITY,[...] THE DIVERSITY IS INDIGNIOUS TO AFRICAN POPULATIONS":

http://youtu.be/Pjf0qKdzmrc

quote:

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Colored dots indicate genetic diversity. Each new group outside of Africa represents a sampling of the genetic diversity present in its founder population. The ancestral population in Africa was sufficiently large to build up and retain substantial genetic diversity.

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--Brenna M. Henna,
L. L. Cavalli-Sforzaa,1, and
Marcus W. Feldmanb,2
Edited by C. Owen Lovejoy, Kent State University, Kent, OH, and approved September 25, 2012 (received for review July 19, 2012)

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capra this is Ish Gebor's favorite chart. He believes the dots in Africa represent the whole human genetic spectrum and after humankind left Africa it simply decreased in diversity and nothing new happened, no new mutations occurred outside of Africa

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You are one big jackass, “diversity present in its founder population.”? Ok!!! Nowhere did I ever say all or “whole”, but it certainly covers a lot of it. “The ancestral population in Africa“.Ok?!!

Can you even read, let alone do analysis, “fly catcher”?

You are obsessed with “back migrations” and “Africans as slaves”, while you don’t know that backstory of these theories!!! Orrrrrr, perhaps you DO!

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Founder effects

• A founder effect occurs when a new colony is started by a few members of the original population. This small population size means that the colony may have:
• reduced genetic variation from the original population.
  a non-random sample of the genes in the original population.

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The peopling of the last Green Sahara revealed by high-coverage resequencing of trans-Saharan patrilineages

by D’Atanasio, Trombetta, Bonito, et al., Genome Biology (2018) 19:20.

After the African humid period, the climatic conditions became rapidly hyper-arid and the Green Sahara was replaced by the desert, which acted as a strong geographic barrier against human movements between northern and sub-Saharan Africa.

A consequence of this is that there is a strong differentiation in the Y chromosome haplogroup composition between the northern and sub-Saharan regions of the African continent. In the northern area, the predominant Y lineages are J-M267 and E-M81, with the former being linked to the Neolithic expansion in the Near East and the latter reaching frequencies as high as 80 % in some north-western populations as a consequence of a very recent local demographic expansion [8–10]. On the contrary, sub-Saharan Africa is characterised by a completely different genetic landscape, with lineages within E-M2 and haplogroup B comprising most of the Y chromosomes. In most regions of sub-Saharan Africa, the observed haplogroup distribution has been linked to the recent (~ 3 kya) demic diffusion of Bantu agriculturalists, which brought E-M2 sub-clades from central Africa to the East and to the South [11–17]. On the contrary, the sub-Saharan distribution of B-M150 seems to have more ancient origins, since its internal lineages are present in both Bantu farmers and non-Bantu hunter-gatherers and coalesce long before the Bantu expansion [18–20].

R-V88 has been observed at high frequencies in the central Sahel (northern Cameroon, northern Nigeria, Chad and Niger) and it has also been reported at low frequencies in northwestern Africa [37]. Outside the African continent, two rare R-V88 sub-lineages (R-M18 and R-V35) have been observed in Near East and southern Europe (particularly in Sardinia) [30, 37–39]. Because of its ethno-geographic distribution in the central Sahel, R-V88 has been linked to the spread of the Chadic branch of the Afroasiatic linguistic family [37, 40].

Finally, the R-V88 lineages date back to 7.85 kya and its main internal branch (branch 233) forms a “star-like” topology (“Star-like” index = 0.55), suggestive of a demographic expansion. More specifically, 18 out of the 21 sequenced chromosomes belong to branch 233, which includes eight sister clades, five of which are represented by a single subject. The coalescence age of this sub-branch dates back to 5.73 kya, during the last Green Sahara period. Interestingly, the subjects included in the “star-like” structure come from northern Africa or central Sahel, tracing a trans-Saharan axis. It is worth noting that even the three lineages outside the main multifurcation (branches 230, 231 and 232) are sister lineages without any nested sub-structure. The peculiar topology of the R-V88 sequenced samples suggests that the diffusion of this haplogroup was quite rapid and possibly triggered by the Saharan favourable climate (Fig. 2b).

Finally, the R-V88 lineages date back to 7.85 kya and its main internal branch (branch 233) forms a “star-like” topology (“Star-like” index = 0.55), suggestive of a demographic expansion. More specifically, 18 out of the 21 sequenced chromosomes belong to branch 233, which includes eight sister clades, five of which are represented by a single subject. The coalescence age of this sub-branch dates back to 5.73 kya, during the last Green Sahara period. Interestingly, the subjects included in the “star-like” structure come from northern Africa or central Sahel, tracing a trans-Saharan axis. It is worth noting that even the three lineages outside the main multifurcation (branches 230, 231 and 232) are sister lineages without any nested sub-structure. The peculiar topology of the R-V88 sequenced samples suggests that the diffusion of this haplogroup was quite rapid and possibly triggered by the Saharan favourable climate (Fig. 2b).


Outside Africa, both A3-M13 and R-V88 harbour sub-lineages geographically restricted to the island of Sardinia and both seem to indicate ancient trans-Mediterranean contacts. The phylogeography of A3-M13 suggests that the direction of the movement was from Africa to Sardinia, while R-V88 topology indicates a Europe-to-Africa migration. Indeed, our data suggest a European origin of R-V88 about 12.3 kya, considering both the presence of two Sardinian R-V88 basal clades (R-M18 and R-V35) and that the V88 marker arose in the R-M343 background, which in turn includes Near-Eastern/European lineages [52]. It is worth noting that the arrival of R-V88 in the Sahara seems to have occurred between 8.67 and 7.85 kya (considering as an upper limit the time estimates of the last node including a European-specific lineage, while the lower limit is the coalescence age of all the African-specific lineages), refining the time frame of the trans-Saharan migration proposed in previous studies [37, 56]. The route of R-V88 toward the lake Chad basin probably passed through northeastern Africa rather than Arabia, considering the absence of R-V88 in the Horn of Africa. Interestingly, both A3-M13 and R-V88 European sub-clades coalesced in ancient times (> 7.62 kya for A3-M13/V2742 and between 12.34 and 8.67 kya for R-V88/M18 and R-V88/V35) (Additional file 2: Figures S2 and S5). So it is possible that both clades were widespread in southern Europe, where they have been replaced by the Y haplogroups brought by the following recurrent migration waves from Asia


In spite of their genetic differentiation, however, northern and sub-Saharan Africa share at least four patrilineages at different frequencies, namely A3-M13, E-M2, E-M78 and R-V88.

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Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
Haplogroups have little to do with the bulk of one's genetic profile and one's genetic profile does not determine modern racial definitions. Vin Diesel is E-M2. He could produce a son that is lily white with a pale or melinated woman. I have an 'anglo' haplogroup and I dont pass as anglo.

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