for our purposes are Tables S5 & S6 with the Figure 4 pie.
Here are TS5 & TS6 with Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, and
Egypt population frequencies for select mtDNA & nrY Hgs.
Out of Ennafaa's selected African samples
* Egypt is not primarily African
quote:What the study showed is that, Non-Africans are closely related to Egyptians, because those were the likely first Africans to invade the rest of the world.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
MODERN EGYPTIANS on an average for the whole country
are mostly (51% +)
of FOREIGN ANCESTRY ???
prove it with genetics
.
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
MODERN EGYPTIANS on an average for the whole country
are mostly (51% +)
of FOREIGN ANCESTRY ???
prove it with genetics
.
quote:Please, your question quite clearly arose from yesterday's thread on the Humans Trekked Out of Africa Via Egypt study. You wrote:
I have no particular study in mind but I hear the claim on Egyptsearch all the time that the majority of Modern Egyptians are not descendants of the ancient Egyptians or if not have very little ancestry descendant of the ancient Egyptians
quote:And:
Let's see somebody prove with genetics they [modern Egyptians] are 80% foreign
quote:Again, why not contact the authors? Rather than speculating as to whether you think they're wrong, e-mail them. Then let us know what they say. I would suggest that to anyone else who has questions with their findings.
Not including this article do you think modern Egyptians on average for the whole country are more than half non-African
or less than half non-African ?
quote:^^^ O.k. somebody new comes in and there's no article title and link to see what they say about samples for the data etc, that is basic respect to the reader
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Here are TS5 & TS6 with Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, and
Egypt population frequencies for select mtDNA & nrY Hgs.
quote:
So you can ask me ten times to contact the authors of the OOA paper and I'm not going to do it. This is a new topic on Egyptian demographic ancestry not AMH OOA
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
.
- A good capsule of Ennafaa's (2011, Fregel co-author) data
for our purposes are Tables S5 & S6 with the Figure 4 pie.
Here are TS5 & TS6 with Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, and
Egypt population frequencies for select mtDNA & nrY Hgs.
Out of Ennafaa's selected African samples
* Egypt is not primarily African
.
-----------------------------------------------------
OLDER DNA TRIBES DATA + cranial data
new
quote:What makes it partially difficult is that Northeast Africa obviously had outgoing populations. So SNP's found in the region can be due to outgoing as it expanded outside of Africa.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
MODERN EGYPTIANS on an average for the whole country
are mostly (51% +)
of FOREIGN ANCESTRY ???
prove it with genetics
.
quote:Greetings Ledama. Where were you trying to email me at? My website (www.asarimhotep.com)?
Originally posted by LEDAMA:
Asar Imhotep.did you get my email.I have tried to email you with no success.I always get the msg,'u must log in first'but after I have logged in and rewrite my post again,I hit send,but it tells me the same thing.
quote:This is exactly what I'm talking about. Tukuler critcized xyyman for altering charts
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
Greetings Tukler
Is this study saying that the Egyptian admixture of EurAsians is 67%? This coming from the chart you posted below:
quote:Ok go to Tukular's version of this chart, top of post
We ran ADMIXTURE for k equal 2 to 7 and obtained CV errors, and determined that the best k (the one with lowest cross-validation error) is k = 4. Results (Figure 1) are coincident with those previously published [17] and show that North Morocco, Libya and Egypt carry high proportions of European and Near Eastern ancestral components, whereas Tunisian Berbers and Saharawi are those populations with highest autochthonous North African component....
The results of the f4 ancestry ratio test (Table 2 and Table S1) show that North African populations vary in the percentage of Neandertal inferred admixture, primarily depending on the amount of European or Near Eastern ancestry they present (Table 1). Populations like North Morocco and Egypt, with the highest European and Near Eastern component (∼40%), have also the highest amount of Neandertal ancestry (∼60–70%) (Figure 3). On the contrary, South Morocco that exhibits the highest Sub-Saharan component (∼60%), shows the lowest Neandertal signal (20%). Interestingly, the analysis of the Tunisian and N-TUN populations shows a higher Neandertal ancestry component than any other North African population and at least the same (or even higher) as other Eurasian populations (100–138%) (Figure 3).....
With the current data, however, it is not possible to discard the ancient African substructure hypothesis [8]. Although ours and some previous results [9] tend to favor the admixture hypothesis as the most plausible one, we think that a complete clarification of this issue can only be achieved with a Neandertal high coverage genome, such as this recently achieved for Denisova [32]. This, and sequencing data of North African populations, especially those with a high autochthonous component, may help elucidate more precisely the interbreeding process with Neandertals. In any case, our results show that Neandertal genomic traces do not mark a division between African and non-Africans but rather a division between Sub-Saharan Africans and the rest of modern human groups, including those from North Africa.
quote:HTP Asar Imhotep
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
Greetings Tukler
Is this study saying that the Egyptian admixture of EurAsians is 67%? This coming from the chart you posted below:
quote:.
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
Greetings Tukler
Is this study saying that the Egyptian admixture of EurAsians is 67%? This coming from the chart you posted below:
quote:.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Clyde and Swenet even felt compelled to write their own threads for alternative points of view
. . .
Although Tukualr might have some issues with how certain haplogroups are categorized bewteen African and Eurasian,
for the purposes of argument he accepted the authors of these articles indications.
He has not spent this thread questioning those indications. That was not the theme of this thread.
quote:.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
I am interested in the raw haplotype data and Tukuler understood this but instead of being concise to the topic he merely copy and pasted a lot of other remarks about berbers and didn't link article titles.
Anyway the info he posted might be applicable to the inquiry
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
quote:I tried to send you a private message using my Egypt search account but it was frustrating,now I got ur email account I will contact you soon.Thanks..htp
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
quote:Greetings Ledama. Where were you trying to email me at? My website (www.asarimhotep.com)?
Originally posted by LEDAMA:
Asar Imhotep.did you get my email.I have tried to email you with no success.I always get the msg,'u must log in first'but after I have logged in and rewrite my post again,I hit send,but it tells me the same thing.
quote:So what?
MODERN EGYPTIANS on average are mostly of FOREIGN ANCESTRY ???
quote:The thread title is a question hence the ?? marks
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:So what?
MODERN EGYPTIANS on average are mostly of FOREIGN ANCESTRY ???
We know modern egyptians are not the same as the ancient due mostly to post dynastic greek, roman, persian, arab, etc migrations. They are a nice mix of all those people including indigenous Ancient Egyptians (aka black Africans).
Since modern Egypt have a high proportion of African ancestry in their populations, it shows us that the original population was African. Especially considering Ramses III was E1b1a and the DNA analysis of the Ancient Egyptian mummies (JAMA, BMJ, DNA Tribes, etc).
quote:
The thread title is a question hence the ?? marks
Just becuase you can point to invasion that does not mean the people are not primarily native because of it
However they might not be
and that can be examined by DNA
sub title of the thread:
What is the genetic ancestry on average of modern Egypt?
I'm waiting to see if anybody has more articles on modern Egyptian DNA
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:What makes it partially difficult is that Northeast Africa obviously had outgoing populations. So SNP's found in the region can be due to outgoing as it expanded outside of Africa.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
MODERN EGYPTIANS on an average for the whole country
are mostly (51% +)
of FOREIGN ANCESTRY ???
prove it with genetics
.
Therefore are being claimed as "so called" Eurasian.
quote:It's the same hogwas with you over and over again.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:The thread title is a question hence the ?? marks
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:So what?
MODERN EGYPTIANS on average are mostly of FOREIGN ANCESTRY ???
We know modern egyptians are not the same as the ancient due mostly to post dynastic greek, roman, persian, arab, etc migrations. They are a nice mix of all those people including indigenous Ancient Egyptians (aka black Africans).
Since modern Egypt have a high proportion of African ancestry in their populations, it shows us that the original population was African. Especially considering Ramses III was E1b1a and the DNA analysis of the Ancient Egyptian mummies (JAMA, BMJ, DNA Tribes, etc).
Just becuase you can point to invasion that does not mean the people are not primarily native because of it
However they might not be
and that can be examined by DNA
sub title of the thread:
What is the genetic ancestry on average of modern Egypt?
I'm waiting to see if anybody has more articles on modern Egyptian DNA
quote:--Robert Morkot (2005) The Egyptians: An Introduction. p. 10)
"Ancient Egypt belongs to a language
group known as 'Afroasiatic' (formerly
called Hamito-Semitic) and its closest
relatives are other north-east African
languages from Somalia to Chad. Egypt's
cultural features, both material and
ideological and particularly in the earliest
phases, show clear connections with that
same broad area. In sum, ancient Egypt
was an African culture, developed by
African peoples, who had wide ranging
contacts in north Africa and western
Asia."
quote:--Robert Morkot (2005). The Egyptians: An Introduction. pp. 12-13
"The ancient Egyptians were not 'white' in any European sense, nor were they 'Caucasian'... we can say that the earliest population of ancient Egypt included African people from the upper Nile, African people from the regions of the Sahara and modern Libya, and smaller numbers of people who had come from south-western Asia and perhaps the Arabian penisula."
quote:--O'Connor, David B., Reid, Andrew
"Over the last two decades, numerous contemporary (Khartoum Neolithic) sites and cemeteries have been excavated in the Central Sudan.. The most striking point to emerge is the overall similarity of early neolithic developments inhabitation, exchange, material culture and mortuary customs in the Khartoum region to those underway at the same time in the Egyptian Nile Valley, far to the north." (Wengrow, David (2003) "Landscapes of Knowledge, Idioms of Power: The African Foundations of Ancient Egyptian Civilization Reconsidered," in Ancient Egypt in Africa, David O'Connor and Andrew Reid, eds. Ancient Egypt in Africa. London: University College London Press, 2003, pp. 119-137)
quote:You have been answered a few times all ready, but your intelligence and comprehension is lacking, thus you iterate. Then when the same is being posted you'll say it has been posted 166 times already.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:The thread title is a question hence the ?? marks
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:So what?
MODERN EGYPTIANS on average are mostly of FOREIGN ANCESTRY ???
We know modern egyptians are not the same as the ancient due mostly to post dynastic greek, roman, persian, arab, etc migrations. They are a nice mix of all those people including indigenous Ancient Egyptians (aka black Africans).
Since modern Egypt have a high proportion of African ancestry in their populations, it shows us that the original population was African. Especially considering Ramses III was E1b1a and the DNA analysis of the Ancient Egyptian mummies (JAMA, BMJ, DNA Tribes, etc).
Just becuase you can point to invasion that does not mean the people are not primarily native because of it
However they might not be
and that can be examined by DNA
sub title of the thread:
What is the genetic ancestry on average of modern Egypt?
I'm waiting to see if anybody has more articles on modern Egyptian DNA
quote:The masked likely can be found in older papers by the leading author Luca Pagani.
Originally posted by xyyman:
Rosenberger et al. Dog chasing his tail
That is why the frequency in "Eurasain" increases AWAY from Africa in some studies.
But in the Trekk paper(Pagani) they masked/removed the "Eurasian" components and indentified true "back-migration" as foriegn. The debate is "when", Turk or Saudi? .
The author referenced TS2 for an explanation of the "mid-point ". The table does not explain how they came up with the Islamic Expansion. It shows the "event" took place 750ya +-25y. midpoint 750ya
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:What makes it partially difficult is that Northeast Africa obviously had outgoing populations. So SNP's found in the region can be due to outgoing as it expanded outside of Africa.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
MODERN EGYPTIANS on an average for the whole country
are mostly (51% +)
of FOREIGN ANCESTRY ???
prove it with genetics
.
Therefore are being claimed as "so called" Eurasian.
quote:--Luca Pagani et al.
The presence of three diverse Afro-Asiatic branches (Omotic, Semitic, and Cushitic) makes the Horn of Africa one potential source of this family, although the Ethio- Semitic branch is likely to have originated at a later stage in the Middle East. 23 The Nilotic languages, represented in Ethiopia by the East Sudanic, Kunama, and Koman branches, are more widespread in Sudan, and their presence in Ethiopia is probably the result of recent demo- graphic processes.24 Similarly, genetic studies indicate that a major component of recent Ethiopian ancestry originates outside Africa: for example, half of the mtDNA haplo- types16 and more than one-fifth of Y haplotypes17 found in Ethiopia belong to lineages that, on the basis of phylo- geographic criteria, have been attributed to a non-African rather than a sub-Saharan African origin. These historical admixture events are themselves of interest to historians, anthropologists, and linguists, as well as to geneticists.
Our current study is motivated by four questions. First, where do the Ethiopians stand in the African genetic landscape? Second, what is the extent of recent gene flow from outside Africa into Ethiopia, when did it occur, and is there evidence of selection effects? Third, do genomic data support a route for out-of-Africa migration of modern humans across the mouth of the Red Sea? Fourth, assuming temporal stability of current popula- tions, what are the estimated ages of Ethiopian popula- tions relative to other African groups? In order to address these questions, we generated genome-wide SNP geno- types from Ethiopian individuals.
Given that little genetic information on Ethiopian pop- ulations was available in advance, we sought to analyze a broad sample of 188 Ethiopians from ten diverse popula- tions, chosen from a collection of > 5,000 samples assem- bled by N.B.25,26 The samples genotyped included repre- sentatives of a range of geographical regions and all four linguistic groups (Semitic, Cushitic, Omotic, and Nilotic). For comparative studies, we combined our Ethiopian data with published data from the HGDP27 and HapMap39 projects, as well as more focused studies.28,29 Furthermore, to compensate for the lack of published data of popula- tions immediately surrounding Ethiopia, we additionally genotyped 24 South Sudanese and 23 Somali samples.
quote:--Jibril Hirbo, Sara Tishkoff et al.
Human genetic variation particularly in Africa is still poorly understood. This is despite a consensus on the large African effective population size compared to populations from other continents. Based on sequencing of the mitochondrial Cytochrome C Oxidase subunit II (MT-CO2), and genome wide microsatellite data we observe evidence suggesting the effective size (Ne) of humans to be larger than the current estimates, with a foci of increased genetic diversity in east Africa, and a population size of east Africans being at least 2-6 fold larger than other populations. Both phylogenetic and network analysis indicate that east Africans possess more ancestral lineages in comparison to various continental populations placing them at the root of the human evolutionary tree. Our results also affirm east Africa as the likely spot from which migration towards Asia has taken place. The study reflects the spectacular level of sequence variation within east Africans in comparison to the global sample, and appeals for further studies that may contribute towards filling the existing gaps in the database. The implication of these data to current genomic research, as well as the need to carry out defined studies of human genetic variation that includes more African populations; particularly east Africans is paramount.
[...]
Table 1 shows the population parameters and selective neutrality test (Tajima’s D) based on MT-CO2 variation of all continental groups, mean values and test of significance for the obtained values. Tajima’s D (Table 1) scored negative values consistent with human expansion within and outside of Africa (or exchange of alleles between neighboring demes, see discussion below) with satisfactory statistical scores. The transition to transversion ratio of 2:1 in our reported Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNPs) is consistent with being at the root of the gene tree and with neutral evolution distance based analysis using FST for mtDNA sequences and RST for microsatellite data were carried out for subsequent MDS plotting and a population by population correlation comparison using Mantel Test. The result showed no correlation with a P value of 0.66 similar to comparison between mitochondria and Y chromosome variations reported earlier [16].
[...]
The third cluster (C), includes members of almost all world populations particularly non-Africans who share a major haplo- type that seems to have originated within an east African gene pool (Table S1 and Figure 3).
[...]
Mutations and Haplotypes Frequencies in the MT-CO2
The sheer number of haplotypes, a basic measurement of genetic diversity, is also taken as an indication of Ne. As mitochondria are non-recombining the number of mutations and haplotypes is quite correlated. In the MT-CO2 sequence 68 haplotypes were estimated using Arlequin ver3.11 and assigned numbers from 1 to 68. Haplotype relative and absolute frequencies in the studied populations were also calculated. Strikingly, of the total 68 haplotypes, 43 occurred solely in east Africa (Table S1) of which 25 were in Sudanese, 9 in Eritreans and 5 in Ugandans and one Kenyan. The rest of the haplotypes were derived from or included east Africans with exception of 13 haplotypes, 4 in Africa 2 in Australia, 3 in Europe 1 in Arabia 1 America/Africa and 1 Europe/Africa. Of the 42 haplotype defining mutations (Table S2) in Sudanese and Eritreans 11 (26.2%) were non-synonymous (replacements) occurring in trans-membrane domain of COII protein while 31 (73.8%) were synonymous with transitions representing the majority of the mutations. Out of the 42 mutations (Table S2), 31 were previously reported in the literature and 11 were novel. All mutations in Ugandan MT-CO2 samples are synonymous and reported at http://dspace.nwu.ac.za/handle/10394/4221). All published haplogroups associated with the mutations are indicated in Table S2.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
quote:One poster is one opinon, one set of sources for modern Egyptian DNA
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
You have been answered a few times all ready, but your intelligence and comprehension is lacking, thus you iterate. Then when the same is being posted you'll say it has been posted 166 times already.
quote:Therefore to claim that Egypt is not primarily African one has to assume that there are non African haplogroups in this chart (which ones? ) and that their percentages total more than 50% of the average modern Egyptian DNA
Originally posted by Tukuler:.
- A good capsule of Ennafaa's (2011, Fregel co-author) data
for our purposes are Tables S5 & S6 with the Figure 4 pie.
Here are TS5 & TS6 with Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, and
Egypt population frequencies for select mtDNA & nrY Hgs.
Out of Ennafaa's selected African samples
* Egypt is not primarily African
.
quote:I leave the additional article sources up to you.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
so xxyman, modern Egyptians are 88% African and only 12% i Ottoman Turk ?
quote:--Manni F1, Leonardi P, Barakat A, Rouba H, Heyer E, Klintschar M, McElreavey K, Quintana-Murci L.
The geographic location of Egypt, at the interface between North Africa, the Middle East, and southern Europe, prompted us to investigate the genetic diversity of this population and its relationship with neighboring populations. To assess the extent to which the modern Egyptian population reflects this intermediate geographic position, ten Unique Event Polymorphisms (UEPs), mapping to the nonrecombining portion of the Y chromosome, have been typed in 164 Y chromosomes from three North African populations. The analysis of these binary markers, which define 11 Y-chromosome lineages, were used to determine the haplogroup frequencies in Egyptians, Moroccan Arabs, and Moroccan Berbers and thereby define the Y-chromosome background in these regions. Pairwise comparisons with a set of 15 different populations from neighboring European, North African, and Middle Eastern populations and geographic analysis showed the absence of any significant genetic barrier in the eastern part of the Mediterranean area, suggesting that genetic variation and gene flow in this area follow the "isolation-by-distance" model. These results are in sharp contrast with the observation of a strong north-south genetic barrier in the western Mediterranean basin, defined by the Gibraltar Strait. Thus, the Y-chromosome gene pool in the modern Egyptian population reflects a mixture of European, Middle Eastern, and African characteristics, highlighting the importance of ancient and recent migration waves, followed by gene flow, in the region.
quote:http://www.cell.com/cms/attachment/1088206/8032906/mmc1.pdf
9 Northern Egyptians
10 Egyptian Berbers from Siwa
11 Egyptians from Baharia
12 Egyptians from Gurna Oasis
13 Southern Egyptians
quote:It doesn't have to be a population replacement. It can be an increase of the segment (population of region wise). Most Egyptians life in urban areas like Cairo. These places also had most foreign people migrating there. Which is an historical fact.
Originally posted by xyyman:
@lioness. To be honest. No. I don't believe Pagani's 80% numbers. Why? For two reasons.
1. 80% implies almost total population replacement. Very unlikely.
2. We have to look at things holistically ie all inclusive. The SNP must corroborate the HG. Most modem Egyptians carry African lineage with an African origin. Male J2 is the only one with Turk/Levantine origin.
So. DNATRIBE numbers for SNP Is more in line with HG and not Pagani's. irregardless, modern Egytptians is the most admixed of modern North African populations!!!
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:I dopen t have to be a population replacement. It can be an increase go the segment.
Originally posted by xyyman:
@lioness. To be honest. No. I don't believe Pagani's 80% numbers. Why? For two reasons.
1. 80% implies almost total population replacement. Very unlikely.
2. We have to look at things holistically ie all inclusive. The SNP must corroborate the HG. Most modem Egyptians carry African lineage with an African origin. Male J2 is the only one with Turk/Levantine origin.
So. DNATRIBE numbers for SNP Is more in line with HG and not Pagani's. irregardless, modern Egytptians is the most admixed of modern North African populations!!!
http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/egypt-population/
quote:Yes, you can consider that population replacement as well.
Originally posted by xyyman:
Agreed. The Turks simply had more babies is another possibility. But isn't that also a form of population replacement? But you get my point.
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:I dopen t have to be a population replacement. It can be an increase go the segment.
Originally posted by xyyman:
@lioness. To be honest. No. I don't believe Pagani's 80% numbers. Why? For two reasons.
1. 80% implies almost total population replacement. Very unlikely.
2. We have to look at things holistically ie all inclusive. The SNP must corroborate the HG. Most modem Egyptians carry African lineage with an African origin. Male J2 is the only one with Turk/Levantine origin.
So. DNATRIBE numbers for SNP Is more in line with HG and not Pagani's. irregardless, modern Egytptians is the most admixed of modern North African populations!!!
http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/egypt-population/
quote:Of course you are absolutely correct. But these scientists play games with the facts and will sample a few people in Cairo and claim that those samples represent "all Egypt". Never will you see samples of people from different parts of Egypt just to compare the dna results between populations WITHIN the country. Obviously the DNA of folks closer to Aswan will be different to those closer to Israel. And the DNA of he bedouins in the Sinai different from the Siwa folks in the West of the country. So there would be different clusters of DNA reflecting different population histories in different parts of the country. Not to mention the DNA for folks like the Bedja nomads in Upper Egypt. And this is not acceptable for so-called scientists in the year 2015 to be playing these games where even a lowly non scientific layman can call them on their BS.
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:Yes, you can consider that population replacement as well.
Originally posted by xyyman:
Agreed. The Turks simply had more babies is another possibility. But isn't that also a form of population replacement? But you get my point.
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:I dopen t have to be a population replacement. It can be an increase go the segment.
Originally posted by xyyman:
@lioness. To be honest. No. I don't believe Pagani's 80% numbers. Why? For two reasons.
1. 80% implies almost total population replacement. Very unlikely.
2. We have to look at things holistically ie all inclusive. The SNP must corroborate the HG. Most modem Egyptians carry African lineage with an African origin. Male J2 is the only one with Turk/Levantine origin.
So. DNATRIBE numbers for SNP Is more in line with HG and not Pagani's. irregardless, modern Egytptians is the most admixed of modern North African populations!!!
http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/egypt-population/
It's also the most logical explanation. Considering the statistics on population density.
44% of the population is urban (36,713,659 people in 2014).
The population more than tripled since the 1950. Going from 25,000,000 to 84,627,891. Centuries ago it was way smaller, only a few million.
This source also shows the Sinai.
Migrants
quote:
Of course you are absolutely correct. But these scientists play games with the facts and will sample a few people in Cairo and claim that those samples represent "all Egypt". Never will you see samples of people from different parts of Egypt just to compare the dna results between populations WITHIN the country. Obviously the DNA of folks closer to Aswan will be different to those closer to Israel. And the DNA of he bedouins in the Sinai different from the Siwa folks in the West of the country. So there would be different clusters of DNA reflecting different population histories in different parts of the country. Not to mention the DNA for folks like the Bedja nomads in Upper Egypt. And this is not acceptable for so-called scientists in the year 2015 to be playing these games where even a lowly non scientific layman can call them on their BS.
But of course this is the whole point. To promote such BS as 'scientific' when it is only really just irrelevant data used to reinforce the nonsense arguments put forward by idiots online who want to pretend to know what they are talking about.
Just think about this and you will see how OBVIOUSLY intentional it is that they DON'T do a comprehensive DNA study across Egypt or ANY North African country. Egypt has been long the site of much European research since Napoleon. It has been debated over in terms of the origins of the ancient Egyptians for hundreds of years. Not to mention it has been identified as one of the routes for humans out of Africa. Yet to this day you don't have a comprehensive study of the DNA across the various population across the entire country. Yet you will keep seeing studies comparing Egyptian DNA, other North African DNA, European and Arab DNA all over the net. So how does that make sense if it isn't intentional. If all populations in Egypt don't have the same DNA cluster then which population are you using as the basis for comparison? And given the population changes over the last 50 years, what does that say about the DNA clusters of folks in Cairo vs isolated population still in and around Aswan or Siwa or in various desert communities? Obviously they don't care about that because they just want to claim that Europeans are close to the ancient Egyptians which is nonsense. The population density maps of ancient Egypt would have been exactly the opposite of what you have today which means the DNA clusters would have been totally different.
quote:
The great majority of the people in Cairo and Alexandria migrated from the villages to those bigger cities. So, basically, a big city like Cairo has people from all over Egypt, North (Delta Farmers), Upper Egypt, Aswan, Nubians, Gypsies, Bedouins, Copts, and many others. Almost every Egyptian ethnic group has some relatives that live and work in Cairo.
quote:Statistics and historical accounts tell otherwise. LOL
Originally posted by Caveman:
This sounds like a response from someone who has never studied anything about the internal migration patterns within Egypt.
The great majority of the people in Cairo and Alexandria migrated from the villages to those bigger cities. So, basically, a big city like Cairo has people from all over Egypt, North (Delta Farmers), Upper Egypt, Aswan, Nubians, Gypsies, Bedouins, Copts, and many others. Almost every Egyptian ethnic group has some relatives that live and work in Cairo.
The scientists are actually very smart people and know what they're doing and most of the facts point to a differentiated North African Population that had close affinities to Eurasian before Ancient Egypt, During Ancient Egypt's Dynastic Era, and the same pattern seems to hold true in Modern Egypt as well.
You're upset, because they're Not Related to West Africans. But reasonable People should be able to connect the dots and stop believing in Santa Claus.
quote:
Of course you are absolutely correct. But these scientists play games with the facts and will sample a few people in Cairo and claim that those samples represent "all Egypt". Never will you see samples of people from different parts of Egypt just to compare the dna results between populations WITHIN the country. Obviously the DNA of folks closer to Aswan will be different to those closer to Israel. And the DNA of he bedouins in the Sinai different from the Siwa folks in the West of the country. So there would be different clusters of DNA reflecting different population histories in different parts of the country. Not to mention the DNA for folks like the Bedja nomads in Upper Egypt. And this is not acceptable for so-called scientists in the year 2015 to be playing these games where even a lowly non scientific layman can call them on their BS.
But of course this is the whole point. To promote such BS as 'scientific' when it is only really just irrelevant data used to reinforce the nonsense arguments put forward by idiots online who want to pretend to know what they are talking about.
Just think about this and you will see how OBVIOUSLY intentional it is that they DON'T do a comprehensive DNA study across Egypt or ANY North African country. Egypt has been long the site of much European research since Napoleon. It has been debated over in terms of the origins of the ancient Egyptians for hundreds of years. Not to mention it has been identified as one of the routes for humans out of Africa. Yet to this day you don't have a comprehensive study of the DNA across the various population across the entire country. Yet you will keep seeing studies comparing Egyptian DNA, other North African DNA, European and Arab DNA all over the net. So how does that make sense if it isn't intentional. If all populations in Egypt don't have the same DNA cluster then which population are you using as the basis for comparison? And given the population changes over the last 50 years, what does that say about the DNA clusters of folks in Cairo vs isolated population still in and around Aswan or Siwa or in various desert communities? Obviously they don't care about that because they just want to claim that Europeans are close to the ancient Egyptians which is nonsense. The population density maps of ancient Egypt would have been exactly the opposite of what you have today which means the DNA clusters would have been totally different.
quote:So what, they had a high fertility rate that is not relevant to ancestry unless it's primarily due to immigration which it's not
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
The population more than tripled since the 1950. Going from 25,000,000 to 84,627,891.
quote:Agreed ,you are the only person who makes sense here.others just want to argue,argue,argue.No progress in understanding,another study will come,then they argue,no conclusions,no progress in knowledge and understanding.
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Of course you are absolutely correct. But these scientists play games with the facts and will sample a few people in Cairo and claim that those samples represent "all Egypt". Never will you see samples of people from different parts of Egypt just to compare the dna results between populations WITHIN the country. Obviously the DNA of folks closer to Aswan will be different to those closer to Israel. And the DNA of he bedouins in the Sinai different from the Siwa folks in the West of the country. So there would be different clusters of DNA reflecting different population histories in different parts of the country. Not to mention the DNA for folks like the Bedja nomads in Upper Egypt. And this is not acceptable for so-called scientists in the year 2015 to be playing these games where even a lowly non scientific layman can call them on their BS.
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:Yes, you can consider that population replacement as well.
Originally posted by xyyman:
Agreed. The Turks simply had more babies is another possibility. But isn't that also a form of population replacement? But you get my point.
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:I dopen t have to be a population replacement. It can be an increase go the segment.
Originally posted by xyyman:
@lioness. To be honest. No. I don't believe Pagani's 80% numbers. Why? For two reasons.
1. 80% implies almost total population replacement. Very unlikely.
2. We have to look at things holistically ie all inclusive. The SNP must corroborate the HG. Most modem Egyptians carry African lineage with an African origin. Male J2 is the only one with Turk/Levantine origin.
So. DNATRIBE numbers for SNP Is more in line with HG and not Pagani's. irregardless, modern Egytptians is the most admixed of modern North African populations!!!
http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/egypt-population/
It's also the most logical explanation. Considering the statistics on population density.
44% of the population is urban (36,713,659 people in 2014).
The population more than tripled since the 1950. Going from 25,000,000 to 84,627,891. Centuries ago it was way smaller, only a few million.
This source also shows the Sinai.
Migrants
But of course this is the whole point. To promote such BS as 'scientific' when it is only really just irrelevant data used to reinforce the nonsense arguments put forward by idiots online who want to pretend to know what they are talking about.
Just think about this and you will see how OBVIOUSLY intentional it is that they DON'T do a comprehensive DNA study across Egypt or ANY North African country. Egypt has been long the site of much European research since Napoleon. It has been debated over in terms of the origins of the ancient Egyptians for hundreds of years. Not to mention it has been identified as one of the routes for humans out of Africa. Yet to this day you don't have a comprehensive study of the DNA across the various population across the entire country. Yet you will keep seeing studies comparing Egyptian DNA, other North African DNA, European and Arab DNA all over the net. So how does that make sense if it isn't intentional. If all populations in Egypt don't have the same DNA cluster then which population are you using as the basis for comparison? And given the population changes over the last 50 years, what does that say about the DNA clusters of folks in Cairo vs isolated population still in and around Aswan or Siwa or in various desert communities? Obviously they don't care about that because they just want to claim that Europeans are close to the ancient Egyptians which is nonsense. The population density maps of ancient Egypt would have been exactly the opposite of what you have today which means the DNA clusters would have been totally different.
quote:LOL @ this dumbass. You have trouble with statistics? lol
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:So what, they had a high fertility rate that is not relevant to ancestry unless it's primarily due to immigration which it's not
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
The population more than tripled since the 1950. Going from 25,000,000 to 84,627,891.
quote:Both of these positions are invalid and wrong.
You are a pathetic individual. Ancient Egyptians didn't not come from abroad, the came from inner Africa. You have played your game for 6 years or even longer, day in day out. And it has brought you nowhere. Your claims only have made you look stupid.
quote:Where did I use the words West Africa, loony toon?
Originally posted by Caveman:
quote:Both of these positions are invalid and wrong.
You are a pathetic individual. Ancient Egyptians didn't not come from abroad, the came from inner Africa. You have played your game for 6 years or even longer, day in day out. And it has brought you nowhere. Your claims only have made you look stupid.
Egyptians did not come from West Africa or Inner Africa. They're North- East Africans with some minor Admixture with Other Egyptians who populated Eurasia and comeback to Egypt.
There's some likely chance that Ancient Egyptians did venture into Sub-Saharan Africa, but that does not mean that they're from there.
Ancient Egypt was the Mecca of Knowledge during its Great Zenith, just like Europe and the U.S. are these days and therefore, it would have attracted many people from near and far.
quote:--Mae Goder-Goldberger
There is clear evidence of lithic technological variability in Middle Paleolithic (MP) assemblages along the Nile valley and in adjacent desert areas. One of the identified variants is the Khormusan, the type-site of which, Site 1017, is located north of the Nile's Second Cataract. The industry has two distinctive characteristics that set it apart from other MP industries within its vicinity. One is the use of a wide variety of raw materials; the second is an apparent correlation between raw material and technology used, suggesting a cultural aspect to raw material management. Stratigraphically, site 1017 is situated within the Dibeira-Jer formation which represents an aggradation stage of the Nile and contains sediments originating from the Ethiopian Highlands. While it has previously been suggested that the site dates to sometime before 42.5 ka, the Dibeira-Jer formation can plausibly be correlated with Nile alluvial sediments in northern Sudan recently dated to 83 ± 24 ka (MIS 5a). This stage coincides with the 81 ka age of sapropel S3, indicating higher Nile flow and stronger monsoon rainfall at these times.
Other sites which reflect similar raw material variability and technological traditions are the BNS and KHS sites in the Omo Kibish Formation (Ethiopia) dated to ∼100 ka and ∼190 ka respectively. Based on a lithic comparative study conducted, it is suggested that site 1017 can be seen as representing behavioral patterns which are indicative of East African Middle Stone Age (MSA) technology, adding support to the hypothesis that the Nile Valley was an important dispersal route used by modern humans prior to the long cooling and dry trend beginning with the onset of MIS 4. Techo-typological comparison of the assemblages from the Khormusan sites with other Middle Paleolithic sites from Nubia and East Africa is used to assess the possibility of tracing the dispersal of technological traits across the landscape and through time.
quote:-- Karen Exell
The Origin of the Predynastic: Western Desert and Central Sudan
With the intensification of archaeological research in the Egyptian Western Desert evidence of prehistoric humanoccupation has been consistently found in both the oasesregion and the playas region to the south. Major breaks in the chrono-cultural sequence are related to climaticvariations. After a major arid event during the latePleistocene, which completely dried up the Sahara,forcing the people to cluster along the Nile (and in theCentral Sahara massifs), the Holocene period wascharacterised by better climatic conditions due to anorthward shifting of the monsoon summer rain regime(Kuper and Kropelin 2006; Wendorf and Schild 2001).The desert was again settled, although cyclical minor aridspells required the population to move back and forthfrom the desert to the Nile or to remain in the oases. Fromthe 4th millennium BC another major arid event forcedthe people to concentrate in the oases area and to settlemore permanently to the Nile Valley"
quote:--University of Cambridge
What does Kemet mean?
"Prior to Europe’s involvement with Egypt, the people of Ancient Egypt had many names for their country such as ‘Ta Mery’ (the beloved land), ‘Ta Sety’ (the land of the bow) which was used for the southern most regions of the country and Nubia (see below). Another name was 'Kemet', which means ‘the black land’. All of these names were originally spelt without vowels, so for example Kmt."
Today, for obvious reasons, the name Kemet is associated with a more African-centred approach to looking at ‘Egypt’. For this reason the gallery that you are currently viewing is called Virtual Kemet. In adopting this name we hope to remind people that the ‘Ancient Egypt’ is an African civilization and that whilst the culture had contact with people from other civilizations, it was essentially African in its culture and well as its geographical placement.
[...]
There are many links between ancient Egyptian and modern African culture, ranging from objects such as headrests to hairstyles such as the side lock, and this and other evidence support the idea that it was an African culture in addition to being geographically in Africa. For these reasons Egypt is seen by people of African descent as part of their cultural heritage and history. The concept of Egypt as part of Africa is not a new one. Some of the earliest travellers to Egypt came from the ancient cultures of Greece and Rome, including Greek philosophers, mathematicians, scientists, writers and poets who came to learn from the priests. To the Greeks and Romans, Egypt was an African country, and their artists depicted the Egyptians as Africans, with black skin and tightly curled hair, described by the Greek historian Herodotos in the fifth century BC as 'woolly'.
quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
quote:This one is a real dumbass. LOL.
Originally posted by Caveman:
The Ancient Egyptian culture was dominant and therefore, if you find their artifacts in Syria or West Africa or South Sudan, does not mean that they came from there. If you know anything about anything, you will understand that by wearing blue jeans, does not make someone American.
It is known as Diffusion of Culture, which is something you seem to have a hard time understanding.
All that matters is Genetic DNA and all that Crazy Stuff about language, bones, skeletons, body types, is immaterial and does not matter.
Get this through your thick head:
THERE ARE NO HUMAN RACES!!
BLACK SKINNED PEOPLE ARE NOT ALL RELATED.
BONES DO NOT DESIGNATE RACES. (DO NOT EXIST!)
ANCIENT EGYPTIANS ARE AND WERE RELATED TO EURASIANS.
EURASIANS ARE ALL CHILDREN OF PRE ANCIENT EGYPTIANS.
OUT OF ALL AFRICANS, MODERN EGYPTIANS ARE THE NEAREST PEOPLE TO EURASIANS GENETICALLY.
I hope you have learned something! LOL
quote:--D. ADAMSON*, J. D. CLARK† & M. A. J. WILLIAMS‡
Barbed bone points, typical of those from the early Holocene settlement of “Early Khartoum”, have been found at three sites along the White Nile, south of Khartoum. The form of the fragments and the stratigraphy of the sites throw light on the environment and technology of the early settlements along this part of the Nile.
quote:Science 12 January 2007:
The lack of Late Pleistocene human fossils from sub-Saharan Africa has limited paleontological testing of competing models of recent human evolution. We have dated a skull from Hofmeyr, South Africa, to 36.2 ± 3.3 thousand years ago through a combination of optically stimulated luminescence and uranium-series dating methods. The skull is morphologically modern overall but displays some archaic features. Its strongest morphometric affinities are with Upper Paleolithic (UP) Eurasians rather than recent, geographically proximate people. The Hofmeyr cranium is consistent with the hypothesis that UP Eurasians descended from a population that emigrated from sub-Saharan Africa in the Late Pleistocene.
quote:---Trenton Holliday
"What we can say, however, is that in the Holocene, humans from southwest Asia do not exhibit tropically adapted body shape (Crognier 1981; Eveleth and Tanner 1976; Schreider 1975).... "
quote:--Holliday TW, Hilton CE.
In fact, in terms of body shape, the European and the Inuit samples tend to be cold-adapted and tend to be separated in multivariate space from the more tropically adapted Africans, especially those groups from south of the Sahara.
quote:--Barry Kemp.(Ancient Egypt: Anatomy of a Civilization. p. 54)(2006)
"When the Elephantine results were added to a broader pooling of the physical characteristics drawn from a wide geographic region which includes Africa, the Mediterranean and the Near East quite strong affinities emerge between Elephantine and populations from Nubia, supporting a strong south-north cline."
quote:--Barry Kemp, Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation.( Routledge. p. 52-60)(2005)
"..sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into southern Palestine. *The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans."
quote:--Sonia R. Zakrzewski,
"Little change in body shape was found through time, suggesting that all body segments were varying in size in response to environmental and social conditions. The change found in body plan is suggested to be the result of the later groups having a more tropical (Nilotic) form than the preceding populations."
quote:--Brace, (2005)
"The Niger-Congo speakers, Congo, Dahomey and Haya, cluster closely with each other and a bit less closely with the Nubian sample, both the recent and the Bronze Age Nubians, and more remotely with the Naqada Bronze Age sample of Egypt, the modern Somalis, and the Arabic-speaking Fellaheen (farmers) of Israel. When those samples are separated and run in a single analysis as in Fig. 1, there clearly is a tie between them that is diluted the farther one gets from sub-Saharan Africa"
quote:--S.O.Y. Keita. Early Nile Valley Farmers from El-Badari: Aboriginals or "European" Agro-Nostratic Immigrants? Craniometric Affinities Considered With Other Data.
"An examination of the distance hierarchies reveals the Badarian series to be more similar to the Teita in both analyses and always more similar to all of the African series than to the Norse and Berg groups (see Tables 3A & 3B and Figure 2). Essentially equal similarity is found with the Zalavar and Dogon series in the 11-variable analysis and with these and the Bushman in the one using 15 variables. The Badarian series clusters with the tropical African groups no matter which algorithm is employed (see Figures 3 and 4).. In none of them did the Badarian sample affiliate with the European series."
quote:-- Burial practices of the Final Neolithic pastoralists at Gebel Ramlah, Western Desert of Egypt
"Ancient finds in the Western Desert of Egypt at Gebel Ramlah circa 5,000 BC show culture closely linked with indigenous tropical Africans of both the Saharan and sub-Saharan regions, not Europe or the Middle East. Dental studies put the inhabitants of Gebel Ramlah, closest to indigenous tropical African populations.
"During three seasons of research (in 2000, 2001 and 2003) carried out by the Combined Prehistoric Expedition at Gebel Ramlah in the southern part of the Egyptian Western Desert, three separate Final Neolithic cemeteries were discovered and excavated. Skeletal remains of 67 individuals, comprising both primary and secondary interments, were recovered from 32 discrete burial pits. Numerous grave goods were found, including lithics, pottery and ground stone objects, as well as items of personal adornment, pigments, shells and sheets of mica. Imports from distant areas prove far-reaching contacts.
Analysis of the finds sheds important light on the burial rituals and social conditions of the Final Neolithic cattle keepers inhabiting Ramlah Playa. This community, dated to the mid-fifth millennium B.C. (calibrated), was composed of a phenotypically diverse population derived from both North and sub-Saharan Africa. There were no indications of social differentiation. The deteriorating climatic conditions probably forced these people to migrate toward the Nile Valley where they undoubtedly contributed to the birth of ancient Egyptian civilization."
quote:You clearly have debunked yourself again. There's no difference in these STRs in E1b1a, E1b1
Originally posted by Caveman:
You need to go back to school.
I have made it easy for everyone to understand and I have taken the hard concepts and made them as simple as ABC, except for someone who is a total "Dunce".
You my little friend, amount to a little black radical bitch without any hope for reform. Ancient Egypt will not save your ass, even if they were related to idiots like you.
Lesson 101 is over for now! LOL
quote:--Zahi Hawass, Somaia Ismai et al.
Genetic kinship analyses revealed identical haplotypes in both mummies (table 1⇓); using the Whit Athey’s haplogroup predictor, we determined the Y chromosomal haplogroup E1b1a. The testing of polymorphic autosomal microsatellite loci provided similar results in at least one allele of each marker (table 2⇓). Although the mummy of Ramesses III’s wife Tiy was not available for testing, the identical Y chromosomal DNA and autosomal half allele sharing of the two male mummies strongly suggest a father-son relationship.
quote:--Kuper R, Kröpelin S.
"Radiocarbon data from 150 archaeological excavations in the now hyper-arid Eastern Sahara of Egypt, Sudan, Libya, and Chad reveal close links between climatic variations and prehistoric occupation during the past 12,000 years. Synoptic multiple-indicator views for major time slices demonstrate the transition from initial settlement after the sudden onset of humid conditions at 8500 B.C.E. to the exodus resulting from gradual desiccation since 5300 B.C.E.
Southward shifting of the desert margin helped trigger the emergence of pharaonic civilization along the Nile, influenced the spread of pastoralism throughout the continent, and affects sub-Saharan Africa to the present day".
quote:http://www.yale.edu/egyptology/ae_kurkur.htm
Remains in the immediate eastern foreland of Kurkur, just east of the Sinn el-Kiddab escarpment, are sparse. Numerous and widely distributed hearth mounds18 occur in the area. Pottery, though sparse, further demonstrates the association of early Nile Valley and Western Desert cultures. "
quote:--Nick Brooks et al.
Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).
[...]
Conical tumuli, platform burials and a V-type monument represent structures similar to those found in other Saharan regions and associated with human burials, appearing in sixth millennium BP onwards in northeast Niger and southwest Libya (Sivilli, 2002). In the latter area a shift in emphasis from faunal to human burials, complete by the early fifth millennium BP, has been interpreted by Di Lernia and Manzi (2002) as being associated with a changes in social organisation that occurred at a time of increasing aridity. While further research is required in order to place the funerary monuments of Western Sahara in their chronological context, we can postulate a similar process as a hypothesis to be tested, based on the high density of burial sites recorded in the 2002 survey. Fig. 2: Megaliths associated with tumulus burial (to right of frame), north of Tifariti (Fig. 1). A monument consisting of sixty five stelae was also of great interest; precise alignments north and east, a division of the area covered into separate units, and a deliberate scattering of quartzite inside the structure, are suggestive of an astronomical function associated with funerary rituals. Stelae are also associated with a number of burial sites, again suggesting dual funerary and astronomical functions (Figure 2). Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.
quote:--O'Connor, David B., Reid, Andrew
"Over the last two decades, numerous contemporary (Khartoum Neolithic) sites and cemeteries have been excavated in the Central Sudan.. The most striking point to emerge is the overall similarity of early neolithic developments inhabitation, exchange, material culture and mortuary customs in the Khartoum region to those underway at the same time in the Egyptian Nile Valley, far to the north." (Wengrow, David (2003) "Landscapes of Knowledge, Idioms of Power: The African Foundations of Ancient Egyptian Civilization Reconsidered," in Ancient Egypt in Africa, David O'Connor and Andrew Reid, eds. Ancient Egypt in Africa. London: University College London Press, 2003, pp. 119-137)
quote:--Kathryn A. Bard - (2015)
"Occupation at Ma’adi came to an end in the later 4th millennium bc (equivalent to the Naqada IIc phase), when the site was abandoned. At Buto, the stratigraphic evidence suggests the assimilation of the Lower Egyptian Predynastic Buto-Ma’adi culture in Layer III, and the continuation into Dynastic times of a material culture that had its roots in the Predynastic Naqada culture of Upper Egypt."
[...]
What may be seen at the Badarian sites is the earliest evidence in Egypt of pronounced ceremonialism surrounding burials, which become much more elaborate in the 4thmillennium bc Naqada culture. Brunton excavated about 750 Badarian burials, most of which were contracted ones in shallow oval pits. Most burials were placed on the left side, facing west with the head to the south. This later became the standard orientation of Naqada culture burials. Although the Badarian burials had few grave goods, there was usually one pot in a grave. Some burials also had jewelry, made of beads of seashell, stone, bone, and ivory. A few burials contained stone cosmetic palettes or chert tools.
[...]
Burials such as the Badarian ones represent the material expression of important beliefs and practices in a society concerning the transition from life to death (see Box 5-B).
Burial evidence may symbolize roles and social status of the dead and commemoration of this by the living, expressions of grief by the living, and possibly also concepts
of an afterlife.
quote:--Jibril Hirbo, Sara Tishkoff et al.
Human genetic variation particularly in Africa is still poorly understood. This is despite a consensus on the large African effective population size compared to populations from other continents. Based on sequencing of the mitochondrial Cytochrome C Oxidase subunit II (MT-CO2), and genome wide microsatellite data we observe evidence suggesting the effective size (Ne) of humans to be larger than the current estimates, with a foci of increased genetic diversity in east Africa, and a population size of east Africans being at least 2-6 fold larger than other populations. Both phylogenetic and network analysis indicate that east Africans possess more ancestral lineages in comparison to various continental populations placing them at the root of the human evolutionary tree. Our results also affirm east Africa as the likely spot from which migration towards Asia has taken place. The study reflects the spectacular level of sequence variation within east Africans in comparison to the global sample, and appeals for further studies that may contribute towards filling the existing gaps in the database. The implication of these data to current genomic research, as well as the need to carry out defined studies of human genetic variation that includes more African populations; particularly east Africans is paramount.
[...]
Table 1 shows the population parameters and selective neutrality test (Tajima’s D) based on MT-CO2 variation of all continental groups, mean values and test of significance for the obtained values. Tajima’s D (Table 1) scored negative values consistent with human expansion within and outside of Africa (or exchange of alleles between neighboring demes, see discussion below) with satisfactory statistical scores. The transition to transversion ratio of 2:1 in our reported Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNPs) is consistent with being at the root of the gene tree and with neutral evolution distance based analysis using FST for mtDNA sequences and RST for microsatellite data were carried out for subsequent MDS plotting and a population by population correlation comparison using Mantel Test. The result showed no correlation with a P value of 0.66 similar to comparison between mitochondria and Y chromosome variations reported earlier [16].
[...]
The third cluster (C), includes members of almost all world populations particularly non-Africans who share a major haplo- type that seems to have originated within an east African gene pool (Table S1 and Figure 3).
[...]
Mutations and Haplotypes Frequencies in the MT-CO2
The sheer number of haplotypes, a basic measurement of genetic diversity, is also taken as an indication of Ne. As mitochondria are non-recombining the number of mutations and haplotypes is quite correlated. In the MT-CO2 sequence 68 haplotypes were estimated using Arlequin ver3.11 and assigned numbers from 1 to 68. Haplotype relative and absolute frequencies in the studied populations were also calculated. Strikingly, of the total 68 haplotypes, 43 occurred solely in east Africa (Table S1) of which 25 were in Sudanese, 9 in Eritreans and 5 in Ugandans and one Kenyan. The rest of the haplotypes were derived from or included east Africans with exception of 13 haplotypes, 4 in Africa 2 in Australia, 3 in Europe 1 in Arabia 1 America/Africa and 1 Europe/Africa. Of the 42 haplotype defining mutations (Table S2) in Sudanese and Eritreans 11 (26.2%) were non-synonymous (replacements) occurring in trans-membrane domain of COII protein while 31 (73.8%) were synonymous with transitions representing the majority of the mutations. Out of the 42 mutations (Table S2), 31 were previously reported in the literature and 11 were novel. All mutations in Ugandan MT-CO2 samples are synonymous and reported at http://dspace.nwu.ac.za/handle/10394/4221). All published haplogroups associated with the mutations are indicated in Table S2.
quote:Asshole, Israel demographics is not at all a proxy for Egypt
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:LOL @ this dumbass. You have trouble with statistics? lol
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:So what, they had a high fertility rate that is not relevant to ancestry unless it's primarily due to immigration which it's not
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
The population more than tripled since the 1950. Going from 25,000,000 to 84,627,891.
We know that places like Cairo and Alexandria had foreign migrations.
Most migrations took place in urban areas, for many centuries.
http://www.indexmundi.com/egypt/demographics_profile.html
This is how it works, with population segments:
unless it's primarily due to immigration which it's not
O_0
You are a pathetic individual. Ancient Egyptians didn't not come from abroad, the came from inner Africa. We see a decrease at the ending at the dynasties, when invasions took place. You have played your game for 6 years, or even longer, day in day out. And it has brought you nowhere. Your claims only have made you look stupid. And this statement by you is even more so.
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
@Swenet.
??? DNAconclutant and their games...hit me up.
I will walk you through it. Only TWO STR is gives you a preliminary indication of geographic origin. Want me to explain it to you. I did it before but you probably forgot....
===
The genetic characteristics of these loci, such as chromosomal locations, repeat motifs, range of repeat sizes commonly found in different populations, are available in the product brochures of the commercial kits currently validated for such purposes [6, 7]. Several features are clear from the summary characteristics of these STR loci. First, all but two of the 13 STR loci are located on different chromosomes. The two (CSF1PO and D5S818) that are located on the same chromosome are also far apart (CSF1PO is localized to 5q33.3-34 and D5S818 to 5q23.3-32).
Read more: http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/1364/introduction-str-population-codis#ixzz3bwUoqz00
quote:Stinking asshole, it's an examples of population segment in birth rate. Which shows increase and decrease in segments.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Asshole, Israel demographics is not at all a proxy for Egypt
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:LOL @ this dumbass. You have trouble with statistics? lol
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:So what, they had a high fertility rate that is not relevant to ancestry unless it's primarily due to immigration which it's not
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
The population more than tripled since the 1950. Going from 25,000,000 to 84,627,891.
We know that places like Cairo and Alexandria had foreign migrations.
Most migrations took place in urban areas, for many centuries.
http://www.indexmundi.com/egypt/demographics_profile.html
This is how it works, with population segments:
unless it's primarily due to immigration which it's not
O_0
You are a pathetic individual. Ancient Egyptians didn't not come from abroad, the came from inner Africa. We see a decrease at the ending at the dynasties, when invasions took place. You have played your game for 6 years, or even longer, day in day out. And it has brought you nowhere. Your claims only have made you look stupid. And this statement by you is even more so.
either you have immigration statistics for Egypt or you don't
.
quote:Asshole, without data specific to Egypt you could make the argument that any modern country's population anywhere is primarily foreign
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
This is how it works, with population segments:
quote:^^^ posting this is meaningless to the topic
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:It's very valid to the topic of statistical population segment, increase and decrease. You dumb frustrated racist asshole.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Asshole, without data specific to Egypt you could make the argument that any modern country's population anywhere is primarily foreign
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
This is how it works, with population segments:
when you have data pertaining to modern Egypt rather than Israel, let us know, otherwise continue to spam
quote:^^^ posting this is meaningless to the topic
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:You kicked it up a notch, good to see. It correlates with the already provided data. Anymore words lioness?
Originally posted by xyyman:
The chart below is part of the FBI database on STR pop-affl. YOU can do the "analysis" manually, yourself. Get a ruler and compare the number of "repeats" on the chart below with the Amarnas. Pen, paper , spreadsheet, ruler is all you need. You can even eyeball/estimate. By the 3rd STR the affiliation becomes clearly apparent.
Now!! Can you all stop the BS distraction, the game is over. Lets move on.
quote:
But in any event, there is plenty to link ancient Egyptians
with other "sub-Saharan" Africans- let's see:
--DNA
--Cranial
--Dental
--Limb proportion
--Linguistic
--Cultural
--Foundational movements into the Nile Valley
quote:Everything summed, has already been posted here, and you have been debunked with peer reviewed sources.
Originally posted by Caveman:
Again, Human Races Do Not Exist!
The only thing that matters is DNA, which clearly shows that the Modern, Ancient, and Pre-Ancient Egyptians are closely related to Eurasians. West Africanw are nowhere close to them, genetically.
quote:
But in any event, there is plenty to link ancient Egyptians
with other "sub-Saharan" Africans- let's see:
--DNA
--Cranial
--Dental
--Limb proportion
--Linguistic
--Cultural
--Foundational movements into the Nile Valley
quote:Proof it!
Originally posted by Caveman:
Yfkng Idiot:
Even after removing the supposedly foreign admixture, the Egyptians are still the nearest Africans to Eurasians.
Something that bone heads can't seems to grasp!
Very elementary my boy!
Re:
Bone Head #13597
quote:--Jibril Hirbo, Sara Tishkoff et al.
Human genetic variation particularly in Africa is still poorly understood. This is despite a consensus on the large African effective population size compared to populations from other continents. Based on sequencing of the mitochondrial Cytochrome C Oxidase subunit II (MT-CO2), and genome wide microsatellite data we observe evidence suggesting the effective size (Ne) of humans to be larger than the current estimates, with a foci of increased genetic diversity in east Africa, and a population size of east Africans being at least 2-6 fold larger than other populations. Both phylogenetic and network analysis indicate that east Africans possess more ancestral lineages in comparison to various continental populations placing them at the root of the human evolutionary tree. Our results also affirm east Africa as the likely spot from which migration towards Asia has taken place. The study reflects the spectacular level of sequence variation within east Africans in comparison to the global sample, and appeals for further studies that may contribute towards filling the existing gaps in the database. The implication of these data to current genomic research, as well as the need to carry out defined studies of human genetic variation that includes more African populations; particularly east Africans is paramount.
[...]
Table 1 shows the population parameters and selective neutrality test (Tajima’s D) based on MT-CO2 variation of all continental groups, mean values and test of significance for the obtained values. Tajima’s D (Table 1) scored negative values consistent with human expansion within and outside of Africa (or exchange of alleles between neighboring demes, see discussion below) with satisfactory statistical scores. The transition to transversion ratio of 2:1 in our reported Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNPs) is consistent with being at the root of the gene tree and with neutral evolution distance based analysis using FST for mtDNA sequences and RST for microsatellite data were carried out for subsequent MDS plotting and a population by population correlation comparison using Mantel Test. The result showed no correlation with a P value of 0.66 similar to comparison between mitochondria and Y chromosome variations reported earlier [16].
[...]
The third cluster (C), includes members of almost all world populations particularly non-Africans who share a major haplo- type that seems to have originated within an east African gene pool (Table S1 and Figure 3).
[...]
Mutations and Haplotypes Frequencies in the MT-CO2
The sheer number of haplotypes, a basic measurement of genetic diversity, is also taken as an indication of Ne. As mitochondria are non-recombining the number of mutations and haplotypes is quite correlated. In the MT-CO2 sequence 68 haplotypes were estimated using Arlequin ver3.11 and assigned numbers from 1 to 68. Haplotype relative and absolute frequencies in the studied populations were also calculated. Strikingly, of the total 68 haplotypes, 43 occurred solely in east Africa (Table S1) of which 25 were in Sudanese, 9 in Eritreans and 5 in Ugandans and one Kenyan. The rest of the haplotypes were derived from or included east Africans with exception of 13 haplotypes, 4 in Africa 2 in Australia, 3 in Europe 1 in Arabia 1 America/Africa and 1 Europe/Africa. Of the 42 haplotype defining mutations (Table S2) in Sudanese and Eritreans 11 (26.2%) were non-synonymous (replacements) occurring in trans-membrane domain of COII protein while 31 (73.8%) were synonymous with transitions representing the majority of the mutations. Out of the 42 mutations (Table S2), 31 were previously reported in the literature and 11 were novel. All mutations in Ugandan MT-CO2 samples are synonymous and reported at http://dspace.nwu.ac.za/handle/10394/4221). All published haplogroups associated with the mutations are indicated in Table S2.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Caveman:
DNA Tribes has been Debunked and their results are NOT RELIABLE!!
Read my threads and get a free education! LOL
quote:So which DNA haplogroups are not heavily related to the ancients
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
DNA shows that many MODERN Egyptians
with their Arabized background, are not heavily related
to the ancients.
quote:It's time to get down to the nitty gritty
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Here are TS5 & TS6 with Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, and
Egypt population frequencies for select mtDNA & nrY Hgs.
quote:Here is the nitty gritty, boy!
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:So which DNA haplogroups are not heavily related to the ancients
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
DNA shows that many MODERN Egyptians
with their Arabized background, are not heavily related
to the ancients.
proving your point?
(I hope you're not fronting)
quote:It's time to get down to the nitty gritty
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Here are TS5 & TS6 with Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, and
Egypt population frequencies for select mtDNA & nrY Hgs.
quote:--Jibril Hirbo, Sara Tishkoff et al.
According to the current data East Africa is home to nearly 2/3 of the world genetic diversity independent of sampling effect. Similar figure have been suggested for sub-Saharan Africa populations [1]. The antiquity of the east African gene pool could be viewed not only from the perspective of the amount of genetic diversity endowed within it but also by signals of uni-modal distribution in their mitochondrial DNA (Hassan et al., unpublished) usually taken as an indication of populations that have passed through ‘‘recent’’ demographic expansion [33], although in this case, may in fact be considered a sign of extended shared history of in situ evolution where alleles are exchanged between neighboring demes [34].
- Figure S1 Neighbor joining (NJ). NJ tree of the world populations based on MT-CO2 sequences. The evolutionary relationship of 171 sequences and evolutionary history was inferred using the Neighbor-Joining method. The optimal tree with the sum of branch length = 0.20401570 is shown. The evolutionary distances were computed using the Maximum Composite Likelihood method and are in the units of the number of base substitutions per site. Codon positions included were 1st+2nd+3rd+Noncoding. All positions containing gaps and missing data were eliminated from the dataset. There were a total of 543 positions in the final dataset. Phylogenetic analyses were conducted in MEGA4. Red dots: east Africa, Blue: Africa, Green: Asia, Yellow: Australia, Pink: Europe and gray: America. (TIF)
- Figure S2 Multidimensional Scaling Plot (MDS). The 2nd and 3rd coordinates of an MDS plot of 848 nuclear microsatellite loci from 469 individuals of 24 world populations. MDS uses pairwise IBS data based on the 848 loci generated by PLINK software and plotted using R version 2.15.0. The figure, besides a separate clustering of east Africans, indicates the substantial contribution of Africans and east Africans to the founding of populations of Europe and Asia.
(TIF)
- Figure S3 Multidimensional Scaling Plot (MDS). The 3rd and 4th coordinates of an MDS plot of 848 Microsatellite loci, across the human genome in 469 individuals from 24 populations from Africa, Asia and Europe. MDS uses pairwise IBS data based on the 848 loci generated by PLINK software and plotted using R version 2.15.0. The central position of east Africans and some other Africans emphasizes the founding role of east African gene pool and the disparate alignment on coordinates along which the world populations were founded including populations of Aftica aligning along the 4th dimension.
(TIF)
Figure 4. Multidimensional Scaling Plot (MDS). A. First and second coordinates of an MDS plot of 848 Microsatellite Marshfield data set across the human genome for 24 populations from Africa, Asia and Europe. MDS plot was constructed from pairwise differences FST generated by Arlequin program (Table S3). B. First and second coordinates of an MDS plot of 848 Microsatellite loci, across the human genome in 469 individuals from 24 populations from Africa, Asia and Europe. MDS uses pairwise IBS data based on the 848 loci generated by PLINK software and plotted using R version 2.15.0. East Africans cluster to the left of the plot, while Beja (red cluster in the middle), assumes intermediate position. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0097674.g004
- Figure S4 Multidimensional Scaling Plot (MDS). First and second coordinates of an MDS plot based on MT-CO2 data set constructed from pairwise differences FST generated by Arlequin v3.11. Population code as follows: Nara: Nar, Kunama (Kun), Hidarb (Hid), Afar (Afa), Saho (Sah), Bilen (Bil), Tigre (Tgr), Tigrigna (Tig), Rashaida (Rsh), Nilotics (Nil), Beja (Bej), Ethiopians(Eth), Egyptians (Egy), Moroccans (Mor), Southern Africans (Sth), Pygmy (Pyg), Saudi Arabia (Sdi), Asia (Asi), Europe (Eur), Native Americans (NA), Australians (Ast), Nubians (Nub), Nuba (Nba)
(TIF)
quote:Your threads are mainly hit and run actions, mostly retrieved from pseudo websites. You are so delusional you actually think its meanigfull. LOL
Originally posted by Caveman:
DNA Tribes has been Debunked and their results are NOT RELIABLE!!
Read my threads and get a free education! LOL
quote:LMAO
Originally posted by Tukuler:
[list]
[*]Sanchez-Quinto's (2012 with Botigue, Comas & Lalueza-Fox
co-authors) Table 1 clearly quantifies their Figure 1.
Here are those charts reordered from inner Africa to
Atlantic and Mediterranean North Africa to Arabian
Peninsula to European Union Mediterranean countries
along with the Canaries.
My Maghreb, Berber, and North African frequencies respect
Sanchez-Quinto's assignment of geographic ancestries, which
are in his own words, labeled according to the region where
the component is the commonest.
How does Sanchez-Quinto's genetic report show support or
disconfirmation of the statement Berbers are not primarily African?
His pertinent national samples say
* Egypt is not primarily African
* Libya is not primarily African
* Tunisia is primarily African
* S Maroc is primarily African
* W Sahara is primarily African
* Algeria is primarily African
* N Maroc is primarily African.
I fail to see what is so difficult in understanding the above data. What Tukuler provided above was not just about 'Berbers' but North African nations and general and it is quite clear from the SNP findings that modern Egyptians are by and large NOT of African ancestry which only affirms Zakrewski's cranial findings as well as all the historical reports such as what Ausar cited years ago which state that during dynastic times the majority of the population resided in the Nile valley but the majority of the MODERN Egyptian population lies in the Delta. Hello?? The Delta was the very entry point of the various successive invasions and immigrations.
quote:The Sanchez-Quinto graph does show a significant Qatari-like component in modern Egyptian ancestry, so like you said the Islamic Arab contribution can't be ignored. But I'm also seeing a Southern European-like element in the Egyptian cluster pool that may even be more significant than the Arab influence as per Table 1. Might some of that relate to admixture with Greeks and Romans?
Originally posted by Djehuti:
I fail to see what is so difficult in understanding the above data. What Tukuler provided above was not just about 'Berbers' but North African nations and general and it is quite clear from the SNP findings that modern Egyptians are by and large NOT of African ancestry which only affirms Zakrewski's cranial findings as well as all the historical reports such as what Ausar cited years ago which state that during dynastic times the majority of the population resided in the Nile valley but the majority of the MODERN Egyptian population lies in the Delta. Hello?? The Delta was the very entry point of the various successive invasions and immigrations.
Also, it makes me wonder about the Arab-Islamic invasions as reported not only from the Byzantines but also the Arabs themselves in documents like Al Faruq and Al Maqrizi which talk about massacres of the Egyptian people from the Delta to the Faiyum or "neck" of the Nile. And then during the Umayyad Caliphate there was actually a program of settlement of Arabian tribes to the Nile Valley as well. Ausar knows very well about the history of Medieval Egypt and all of this seems to corroborate the genetic evidence.
This is like asking are Modern Brazilians of mostly foreign ancestry??? LOL
quote:It's also interesting how the data on the k values compare with the NRY data of Luis et. al (2004) in the case of Egypt.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tukuler:
[qb]
[list]
[*]Sanchez-Quinto's (2012 with Botigue, Comas & Lalueza-Fox
co-authors) Table 1 clearly quantifies their Figure 1.
Here are those charts reordered from inner Africa to
Atlantic and Mediterranean North Africa to Arabian
Peninsula to European Union Mediterranean countries
along with the Canaries.
My Maghreb, Berber, and North African frequencies respect
Sanchez-Quinto's assignment of geographic ancestries, which
are in his own words, labeled according to the region where
the component is the commonest.
How does Sanchez-Quinto's genetic report show support or
disconfirmation of the statement Berbers are not primarily African?
His pertinent national samples say
* Egypt is not primarily African
* Libya is not primarily African
* Tunisia is primarily African
* S Maroc is primarily African
* W Sahara is primarily African
* Algeria is primarily African
* N Maroc is primarily African.
quote:http://www.zohry.com/pubs/alyaa.pdf
Originally posted by Doug M:
.
quote:http://www.grist.org/article/2011-02-05-egypt-has-a-population-crisis-as-well-as-a-democracy-crisis
...
The country's populace has soared from 44 million when Mubarak took power in 1981 to more than 80 million today, making Egypt by far the most populous country in the Middle East and the Arab world. And Egyptians are densely concentrated, living in a narrow band along the Nile, as the rest of the country is dry and largely uninhabitable. If Egypt's current growth rate continues, its population could hit 160 million by 2050.
quote:http://countrystudies.us/egypt/55.htm
[b]
quote:If that were the case then modern Egyptians on average would be 82 % African
Originally posted by xyyman:
Like I said. And as DNATribe stated 18% foreign presence in modern Egypt…Turks! Nothing new.
quote:Europeans usually have 1 or 2 children. While the populations you cited have at least 3.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
.
Algeria, Morocco , Tunisia >
.
quote:But there is not such thing as the average. Doug explained it before. If samples are retrieved in the South, West or North the outcome will show different. The only average will be because certain segments of the population have become larger, as I showed before.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:If that were the case then modern Egyptians on average would be 82 % African
Originally posted by xyyman:
Like I said. And as DNATribe stated 18% foreign presence in modern Egypt…Turks! Nothing new.
That is in the realm of the average African American
quote:there is such thing as an average, stop being silly
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
But there is not such thing as the average.
quote:Now apply it to Egypt
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:Europeans usually have 1 or 2 children. While the populations you cited have at least 3.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
.
Algeria, Morocco , Tunisia >
.
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
xyyman is the only one in the thread who thinks modern Egyptians on average are mostly African (82%)
quote:I think the 'least' is higher. Remember polygyny is a common Islamic practice with men being allowed to have as many as four wives. This practice is usually limited to those men who are 'well off' and especially rich since they are expected to support all wives and children. Even the majority who are poor and only marry one wife at a time still produce more than just three children on average and in Islamic law a man can easily divorce is wife by saying so three times and then is free to marry another woman. This is in part explains why the high population growth rate in many Islamic nations including Egypt.
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:Europeans usually have 1 or 2 children. While the populations you cited have at least 3.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
.
Algeria, Morocco , Tunisia >
.
quote:The explanation is given above.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Now apply it to Egypt
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:Europeans usually have 1 or 2 children. While the populations you cited have at least 3.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
.
Algeria, Morocco , Tunisia >
.
quote:The one who is always silly is you, since population genetics is based on demographics. Recent incoming populations have shifted the demographic settings of Egypt. Ironically modern Northern Egyptians aren't as tropical adapted as the ancient populations. Yet further to the South they do.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:there is such thing as an average, stop being silly
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
But there is not such thing as the average.
The average United states citizen is around 75% European and under 1% Hawaiian.
That includes counting all the Hawaiian people
The average person in the state of Hawaii is a lot more Hawaiian than the United States as a whole.
That includes counting all the non-Hawaiian people in Hawaii
This is called demographics
You count all the different types of people in a given area and then see what percentage of each type is compared to the whole population
The average Jamaican is largely African.
The fact that you can find some locale in Jamaica where there is a large portion of Europeans doesn't change that
This is called demographics
Anybody who claims that Egypt is mainly people of foreign descent is dealing with averages.
If someone said the people with the most foreign descent in Egypt are in the North that tells you nothing about proportion in looking at the country as a whole
there could be a half million of them or there could be 80 million of them.
And if you come up with a number inevitably an Egyptsearch member will jump in and say they forgot to sample a population with higher African ancestry that lives in the North
-but not realizing it might be statistically insignificant.
People on Egyptsearch don't understand what demographics is
If we were to discuss the demograpics of Ethiopia and a statement was made about the average Ethiopian somebody could step in an say "but there's a community of Armenians in Ethiopia, you forgot them"
But they weren't forgotten. They just have very little relevance to who the average Ethiopian is because their population is so small. Yet in the Armenian neighborhood in Ethiopia maybe the average person is 90% Armenian.
"You forgot to sample them you must hate Armenians"
No, we are talking about the average type of the whole country
Next you're going to claim the recent euro-American population is ancestral to the ancient American populations. This is how frantic you are on the head.quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Egypt is far from homogenous but at the current rate of growth and the way populations are being moved out of their ancient ancestral homelands, it will soon be homogenous and the original indigenous element wiped out. Of course Europeans would be none the happier.
https://books.google.com/books?id=MRJgAwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
quote:Is there evidence for Ottoman J2 correlations?
Originally posted by xyyman:
But , in addition, modern Egyptians are the most foreign infiltrated African population in the Northern part of the continent. And unlike some Afro-centric I don’t use “books” to make that claim. I use available scientific data. There is NO significant genetic footprint of Greeks, Romans, Vandals, Gauls or whatever existing in modern Egyptians.
My interpretation – These invasions were overated or overstated.. Just as the so called Arabian expansion in North Africa or the Bantu expansion. Etc.
There only genetic or scientific evidence of foreign occupation in North Africa are the J2 which correlates with the Ottomans. This I agree with Mike.
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
xyyman is the only one in the thread who thinks modern Egyptians on average are mostly African (82%)
quote:Demographics deals with averages
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
The one who is always silly is you, since population genetics is based on demographics. Recent incoming populations have shifted the demographic settings of Egypt. Ironically modern Northern Egyptians aren't as tropical adapted as the ancient populations. Yet further to the South they do.
Which explains that Southern Egyptians are closer to ancient Egyptians. This has been explained 6 years in a row. O_o
Apply "indigenous Americans" (Amerindians) to recent incoming euro-Americans and so what average results you'll come up with.
quote:If somebody wants to claim that the population of Egypt is mainly foreign you need DNA data to support historical facts.
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:Is there evidence for Ottoman J2 correlations?
Originally posted by xyyman:
But , in addition, modern Egyptians are the most foreign infiltrated African population in the Northern part of the continent. And unlike some Afro-centric I don’t use “books” to make that claim. I use available scientific data. There is NO significant genetic footprint of Greeks, Romans, Vandals, Gauls or whatever existing in modern Egyptians.
My interpretation – These invasions were overated or overstated.. Just as the so called Arabian expansion in North Africa or the Bantu expansion. Etc.
There only genetic or scientific evidence of foreign occupation in North Africa are the J2 which correlates with the Ottomans. This I agree with Mike.
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
xyyman is the only one in the thread who thinks modern Egyptians on average are mostly African (82%)
Historically their presence is evident,
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
[list]
[*]A good capsule of Ennafaa's (2011, Fregel co-author) data
for our purposes are Tables S5 & S6 with the Figure 4 pie.
Here are TS5 & TS6 with Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, and
Egypt population frequencies for select mtDNA & nrY Hgs.
quote:Really, prove it? LOL
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Demographics deals with averages
The population of the U.S. is about 99% foreign, mainly Europeans
quote:So, why do you think you need DNA? You sound like caveman right now. Coincidence?
Originally posted by the lioness,:
If somebody wants to claim that the population of Egypt is mainly foreign you need DNA data to support historical facts.
according to xyyman modern Egyptian DNA shown below, column G top, column H,
is all African except J2 which is Ottoman Turk
quote:Up and down streams.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
...
quote:Yes, geographically J2 clusters mainly with the Crescent.
Originally posted by xyyman:
Look up origin of J2
Also look at the geographic pattern of J2
quote:here's the PDF
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Quote
Per research by Di Giacomo 2004, J-M172 haplogroup spread into Southern Europe" from either the Levant or Anatolia,
Can you give the actual quote and citation?
quote:Yes, but history also puts those demographics into context. It is a historical fact that North America has been colonized by Europeans and the indigenous populations have been drastically reduced mainly by disease. What is also historical fact is that Egypt's indigenous population has also been displaced though not as bad as North Africa due to invasions since the end of dynastic times. As was discussed here
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Demographics deals with averages
The population of the U.S. is about 99% foreign, mainly Europeans
quote:And what exactly are these graphics that have been presented to you already if not DNA data?!!
If somebody wants to claim that the population of Egypt is mainly foreign you need DNA data to support historical facts.
quote:I find it funny how you now rely on xyyman as you do on certain occasions yet most times you question his interpretations and rightfully so. Could be you're just that desperate to prove that modern day light-skinned Eurasian looking Egyptians are the same as the ancients?? LOL
according to xyyman modern Egyptian DNA shown below, column G top, column H,
is all African except J2 which is Ottoman Turk
[list]
[*]A good capsule of Ennafaa's (2011, Fregel co-author) data
for our purposes are Tables S5 & S6 with the Figure 4 pie.
Here are TS5 & TS6 with Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, and
Egypt population frequencies for select mtDNA & nrY Hgs.
quote:Interesting how the title is named: "haplogroup J as a signature of the post-neolithic colonization of Europe"
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:here's the PDF
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Quote
Per research by Di Giacomo 2004, J-M172 haplogroup spread into Southern Europe" from either the Levant or Anatolia,
Can you give the actual quote and citation?
http://utenti.unife.it/guido.barbujani/pdf/30.pdf
quote:stop lying, thanks
Originally posted by xyyman:
Highest diversity of J1 is split between Yemen and East Africa. With East Africa having a slight edge for "unique" haplotypes.
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:here's the PDF
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Quote
Per research by Di Giacomo 2004, J-M172 haplogroup spread into Southern Europe" from either the Levant or Anatolia,
Can you give the actual quote and citation?
http://utenti.unife.it/guido.barbujani/pdf/30.pdf
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:Yes, geographically J2 clusters mainly with the Crescent.
Originally posted by xyyman:
Look up origin of J2
Also look at the geographic pattern of J2
Btw, I smell something fishy. It's a very nasty smell.
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Not sure how true it is ...from Wiki....
Quote
Per research by Di Giacomo 2004, J-M172 haplogroup spread into Southern Europe" from either the Levant or Anatolia,
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Yeah. Continue to quote OUTDATED studies(2004). You do know the oldest J1 is found in the Africanized Hadrahawat and the Soroqo Islands off Africa and Yemen...and Sudan/Nubia?
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:here's the PDF
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Quote
Per research by Di Giacomo 2004, J-M172 haplogroup spread into Southern Europe" from either the Levant or Anatolia,
Can you give the actual quote and citation?
http://utenti.unife.it/guido.barbujani/pdf/30.pdf
quote:So you mentioned an article on J2
Originally posted by xyyman:
Yeah. Continue to quote OUTDATED studies(2004). You do know the oldest J1 is found in the Africanized Hadrahawat and the Soroqo Islands off Africa and Yemen...and Sudan/Nubia?
quote:Idiot! I am not Hindu. I don't know how many times I have to keep repeating that. Plus, as far as I know J1's presence in Afria is dated to neolithic times not paleolithic unless you can cite data to back up your claims. Perhaps you are confusing J1 with J* which does have a paleolithic presence in Africa. And of course there was an Arab expansion. Not only has history stated this but it is also supported by genetics.
Originally posted by xyyman:
Hindu!! J1 has a paleolithic presence on Africa which could have originated IN Africa or Yemen. Most geneticist concluded there was no "Arab" expansion, only "historian" still maintain that belief.
quote:Yes and you are correct here. I never said "all" J1 in Africa is due to Islamic conquest.
Highest diversity of J1 is split between Yemen and East Africa. With East Africa having a slight edge for "unique" haplotypes.
quote:Incorrect, as all the info I cited above shows.
The only evidence of foreign expansion into Africa is Turks J2 and the geographic pattern confirms that.
quote:Yes and you are correct here.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by xyyman:
[QUOTE][qb]Highest diversity of J1 is split between Yemen and East Africa. With East Africa having a slight edge for "unique" haplotypes.
quote:enough with the racist comments
Originally posted by xyyman:
Stupid double speaking Hindu citing dated stuff again...SMH
quote:LOL You shouldn't be calling anyone stupid as you can't even properly comprehend anything you read. Exactly how am I double-speaking? And again, I don't know what bad experiences you've had with 'Hindus' but I'm not Hindu, you twit! It doesn't take a Hindu or Jew or anyone of any religious group or lack thereof to expose your stupidity.
Originally posted by xyyman:
Stupid double speaking Hindu citing dated stuff again...SMH
Are you a conman?
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
quote:Yes, I already know this as the map of J1 I posted shows, and how does that contradict anything I said?? Did you even understand anything I said??
We are moving off topic but ...here goes.
What does this all mean some of you may ask?
Anyone?
==============
The Emergence Of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup J1e Among Arabic-Speaking Populations(2010) - Jacques Chiaroni
Brenna M Henn4, Ornella Semino, Toomas Kivisild12 and Peter A Underhill2
The predominant categories of Y chromosomes in this region are varieties associated with haplogroup J-M304. This haplogroup essentially bifurcates into two main subclades, J1-M267(J1e) and J2-M172.1
Therefore, the J1e SNP information supports the previous inference that J1 chromosomes linked with DYS388¼13 repeats share a common ancestry .1 Network analysis of J1* chromosomes (Figure 2a) show a bifurcating substructure. One cluster is associated with DYS388¼15 and DYS390 423 repeats and the other cluster with DYS388¼13 repeats. The locale of highest J1* frequency occurs in the vicinity of eastern Anatolia (Figure 1c). ****BOTH**** J1* and J1e occur in Sudan and Ethiopia (Supplementary Table 1). Our data show that the YCAII 22-22 allele state is closely associated with J1e (Supplementary Table 2). Interestingly, in Ethiopia, all Cushitic Oromo and B29% of Semitic Amharic J1 chromosomes are J1*.
The high YSTR variance of J1e in Turks and Syrians (Table 1, Figure 1e) supports the inference of an origin of J1e in nearby eastern Anatolia. Moreover, the network analysis of J1e haplotypes (Figure 2b) shows that some of the populations with low diversity, such as Bedouins from Israel, Qatar, Sudan and UAE, are tightly clustered near high-frequency haplotypes suggesting founder effects with star burst expansion in the Arabian Desert.
A network analysis of J1e chromosomes (Figure 2b) also reflects situations of multiple founders. Although the haplogroup diversification within J1e remains incomplete, the somewhat rare J1e1-M368 provides an insight into the geographical origin of J1e.
Although the haplogroup relationships of YCAII alleles are unstable, nevertheless in the context of haplogroup J1, they are suggestive that the prevalent YCAII 22-22 variety may have evolved from a YCAII 19-22 ancestor.
The timing and geographical distribution of J1e is representative of a demic expansion of agriculturalists and herder–hunters from the Pre-Pottery Neolithic B to the late Neolithic era.24,26 The higher variances observed in Oman, Yemen and Ethiopia suggest either sampling variability and/or demographic complexity associated with multiple founders and multiple migrations. The expansion time associated with Yemen is somewhat older (7000 BCE) and may reflect a migration of herders into southern Arabia.27
Although J1e is one of the most frequent haplogroups in the region, haplogroup E-M123 also shows its highest frequency and haplotype diversity in regions of the Fertile Crescent, decreasing toward the Arabian Peninsula. 1,2,6 This ***CO-DISTRIBUTION*** pattern of Y-chromosome haplogroups J1e and E-M123 resembles mtDNA haplogroups J1b and (PreHV)1 distributions that also display low levels of diversity despite their high frequency in Saudi Arabia.32,33
Read more: http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/1450/haplogroup-dissected-search-origin#ixzz3eInTVmMf
quote:I don't think Hindu qualifies as a 'race' anymore than a Muslim or Jew, but I am baffled as to why he keeps calling me that. I'm telling you he suffers from some sort of mental affliction, perhaps the same that causes him not to interpret data properly. He needs professional help.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:enough with the racist comments
Originally posted by xyyman:
Stupid double speaking Hindu citing dated stuff again...SMH
