some of the Tuareg look like the native Malians at top but others don't. I would bet their DNA and history reflects this
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I bet, people can move from place to place. I also bet, that you don't know the background of the people you post about.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Lioness raises an interesting point; however her point was addressed to her lyinass many times before in the various threads about Moors, Tuaregs, Sanhaja etc.
The Tuareg in general regardless of country whether Mali, Algeria, Mauritania, etc. are divided into different kels or clans and each clan is divided into different castes based on ancestry. The noble clans are traditionally matrilineal though most castes have been affected by Arabization to certain degrees where some Tuareg claim paternal ancestry from Arabs like Beni Hassan. To make things more complicated, various foreigners were incorporated into segments of the kels. Either Arab men into the noble castes or Sub-Saharan men in other castes. Not to mention the incorporation of foreign (either European or Sub-Saharan) women via Islamic slave trade by more Islamicized men. All of this has tended to give the Tuareg a somewhat diverse range of appearance.
It's interesting though not at all surprising that the most 'pristine' looking Tuareg tend to reside in the most rural areas of the central Sahara, while those with 'foreign' looks tend to reside in nearby more cosmopolitan areas. Hence Tuareg with so-called "sub-Saharan" looks tend to live in the Sahel among typical Sub-Saharans while those with Eurasian looks tend to reside further north with Arab tribes.
Of course the 'pristine' Tuareg have a look that has been traditionally described by Western scholars as typically "Hamitic" like the Egyptians and we all know what this entails.
So the lyinass can stop obfuscating. Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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What is a "native Malian"? Bambara? Susu? Moor? Dogon? Fula? Mandinka? None of them were there all that long. The oldest inhabitants are the Pygmies that once lived there. Taller blacks pushed in from Mauritania and the Sahara. So this idea of someone being "native" to a area in West Africa, who isn't a midget is rather silly. We also have to remember the Kingdom of Kukiya which was situated in West Africa and said to have been as old as Egypt, was also dominated demographically by Pygmies.
One most also be bright enough to realize light skinned Touregs are half castes, who are mixed with European slaves and black africans. People have been mixing there for a LONG time.
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How do you define a native Malian??? Not only that but Tuaregs have been native to Mali(northern part) before even the Mali Empire. How do we know those ones that "look like Malians" are the real Malian Tuaregs.
But more importantly Tuaregs in different African countries have different origins. IIRC Tuareg was really just a confederacy.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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What is the documented evidence of Pygmies inhabiting anywhere within the extensive territory of today's nation Mali?
Mali has two major climate zones that connect with each other but when did it ever have a tropical rainforest zone?
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: What is the documented evidence of Pygmies inhabiting anywhere within the extensive territory of today's nation Mali?
Mali has two major climate zones that connect with each other but when did it ever have a tropical rainforest zone?
Well there is the story as related in Herodotus book the histories when he speaks about Libyans from North Africa venturing down to the Niger and being captured by pygmies. Then there is what local inhabitants say about the Tellem people who lived in Mali before taller Africans arrived. Oh and then there are the midget homes the Tellem left behind in the Bandiagara escarpment in Mali. Last but not least there is the famous story of the ancient kingdom of Kukiya that is as old as Egypt. It was situated in Mali somewhere and it was said to be ruled by a tall man but the rest of the inhabitants were Pygmies. You can read that in Tarikh al Fattash if I remember right. Pygmies were in West Africa before modern day Mande people or other groups. They were displaced as Mandes and other groups moved south.
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Tukuler
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Herodotus? Niger river? It was unknown to the Greco-Latins. Their Niger is no more than an application of Gir, a Tamazight word for river.
Yes, stories of little red men abound in Africa from west to south but what's behind these stories? What do the Mbuti or Biaka themselves have to say about once living in grassland environments or building towns?
OK, other than "stories" you can present no real evidence of Pygmy populations or culture in Mali.
Meanwhile there is archaeology to show the cultures and industries of West Africa in both the LGAM and early Holocene that do not indicate Pygmies were involved.
Why are the Pygmies shorties? Does tropical rain forest environment factor?
Still awaiting standard documentary evidence of Pygmy Mali in either the north central or south zones of Mali in any time period.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] Herodotus? Niger river? It was unknown to the Greco-Latins. Their Niger is no more than an application of Gir, a Tamazight word for river.
Where does the "Ni" part come from?
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Tukuler
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Check Niger in the Latin lexicon(s) at Tufts and GOOGLE Gir or even ES archive where is your own post on Gir.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Herodotus? Niger river? It was unknown to the Greco-Latins. Their Niger is no more than an application of Gir, a Tamazight word for river.
Yes, stories of little red men abound in Africa from west to south but what's behind these stories? What do the Mbuti or Biaka themselves have to say about once living in grassland environments or building towns?
OK, other than "stories" you can present no real evidence of Pygmy populations or culture in Mali.
Meanwhile there is archaeology to show the cultures and industries of West Africa in both the LGAM and early Holocene that do not indicate Pygmies were involved.
Why are the Pygmies shorties? Does tropical rain forest environment factor?
Still awaiting standard documentary evidence of Pygmy Mali in either the north central or south zones of Mali in any time period.
Have you even read Herodotus book the histories? Apparently you have not. I suggest you read it before speaking on something you have no knowledge of.
As for you calling out two ethnic groups, what does that have to do with the price of rice in China? In the case of Mali the pygmies there called themselves Thellem, so i am not sure what the groups you have named have to do with anything. As to the evidence, as previously stated, the pygmies built homes that are still in Mali, standing today. They also have bones there. There is no denying or arguing the fact they were in Mali, there is evidence. So once again i am at a loss as to what you are on about. There was also a graveyard found on the southern edge of the Sahara not to long ago. They found bones of short statured people there averaging around 5ft/5'-1/2". There is to much evidence to support what I am saying and little to validate your assumptions.
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Tukuler
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I've perused Herodotus since a child. I owned the Rawlinson xlation hard and now own it soft. In addition I used to vend a pamphlet in the GK Osei series defending Herodotus from those who called him "Father of Lies."
Have you ever heard of Ounjougou? What about nrY Chromosome E-M33? When did you look into the "Mechtoids" of northern Mali? How old are Mande ceramics?
Stories? Sheesh. Hooboy!
You claimed Pygmies as the only indigenees of Mali but examining evidence that holds up in classroom we find Mechtoids possibly ancestral to Berber/Tuareg peoples were first in the north.
The central zone seems the birthplace of nrY E-M33 and possibly represents the 1st (pottery inventors) & the 2nd post-LGAM inhabitants of Ounjougou.
In the south, from what I can gather from the ceramics, Mande appear the earliest.
The above covers a period from 10,000 BCE to ~4000BCE. Meanwhile you have failed to show Pygmies in the record as quartz handlers, ceramic producers, or grindstone users boiling cultivated grains for food.
Mbenga would be the closest Pygmy ethny to Mali. Do they know of the Tellem? What are the Tellem dates? They were there when the Dogon moved in in which century?
You do realize Ounjougou is a mere 10 kms from the Bandiagara Cliffs. Do you propose the Tellem responsible for the worlds first pottery and the other characteristics of the early and mid Holocene?
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Tukuler
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Corregia:
You claimed Pygmies as the only indigenees of Mali but examining evidence that holds up in classroom we find Mechtoids possibly ancestral to Berber/Tuareg peoples were first in the north.
should read
You claimed Pygmies as the only indigenees of Mali but if examining evidence that holds up in a classroom we find "Mechtoids" possibly ancestral to Tamazight peoples were first in the north.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
WHAT IS THIS?
Youze gyze got nothing to say unless it's "Black black black?"
I mean it takes a guy from the FB hide-the -knowledge-so-nobody but-us-will-learn to give some value add (even though he didn't really tell us nothing).
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Tukuler
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posted
Not a soul interested in mapping out post-LGAM (last glacial-arid maximum) peopling within the territory of Mali to ascertain who are "native" Malien and/or when the first peoples got there to become the various ethnies there now?
Meanwhile there's post after post of Gor related bullshit?
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Niger River - "Mud cloth, or bogolan fini* as it is called in Mali, Africa, consists of white designs, often geometric, on a black background". Mud Cloth/Bogolan Fini article
Tellum? Red Pygmies? Unknown to me. Wiki mentions also Toloy people. Dwellings cf Pueblo & Petra, Jordan.
Parts of Morocco have red cliffs similar to Red Sea area, so I'd expect reddish skin tone in longtime dwellers there, and similarly along the drainages and cliffs of the Bandiagara escarpment of red sandstone.
Djehuti: "The Tuareg in general regardless of country whether Mali, Algeria, Mauritania, etc. are divided into different kels or clans"
posted
It's good you bring up the Toloy who preceeded the Tellem at Bandiagara going back to about 300 BCE.
From all the talk on the 'net about the so-called Pygmy Tellem one thing is missing. The earliest Tellem date is just 900 years ago, the 11th century near the end of the Soninke's cosmopolitan Wagadu/Ghana empire.
This makes it impossible to view Tellem as proof that incoming Nilo-Saharans and Niger-Kordofanians were greeted by Pygmies in Mali.
"Tellem" culture continued to the 15th century's complete Dogon "displacement". Pre-Dogon had livestock and practiced farming. Burial goods include distinctive three footed pottery cups tying them in with somewhat distant neighboring sites.
Iron arrow points, iron jewelry, and lip plugs made of quartz were also interred. Even some of their tunics and caps remain.
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re. "Do you propose the Tellem responsible for the worlds first pottery and the other characteristics of the early and mid Holocene?" Tukuler asked typeZeiss
XianRenDong Cave in South China: H&G paleolithic group during ice age LGM (up from Borneo 44ka or east via Black Sea Lake?) made pottery 20,000 yrs ago.
( 10k years before Neolithic pottery in sedentary villages )
Yuchanyan Cave, Hunan province 18,500 yrs ago pottery with deer bone marrow extraction - (grease? coracle waterproofing? cf yak butter waterproofed coracles/kudru in Tibet)
14,500 Jomon Japan pottery
10,500 North China/Russ far east - pottery w/ microblades/polishing/wild millet/acorns
re S. China: Samre Pear/Por (Negrito/Proto-Malayan H&G group at Cambodian hills/cliffs)
chiton(Gk)(skin-ton(e/ic)/tunic(L)/tabac(Can.isla.Bimbache:tunic) =tobacco(AmerInd)=tembakau(Malay)=large leaves used to cover wigwams & fumigate (s.ntr(AEg:scenter/(frankincense=pr.ankh.s.ntr)house.life.incense/-insect/-infest)huts = mongongo(Mb) leaves cover Afr. pygmy dome huts = banana(Malian word meaning what? cover? incense?) leaves covered Austral. pygmy dome huts(Mbababaram)
ps. how to shrink column width?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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posted
quote:Originally posted by DD'eDeN:
re. "Do you propose the Tellem responsible for the worlds first pottery and the other characteristics of the early and mid Holocene?" Tukuler asked typeZeiss
- - -
I can't be specific about Malians, not familiar.
That was a reference to Ounjougou Africa's and maybe the world's first example of pottery ceramics.
Way back in 2007 Myra hipped us to Ounjougou, Bandiagara Plateau, Mali.
Many don't realize ES is resource unto itself. Search its archive by using this key site:egyptsearch.com and whatever subject key you want to research. You can even include a user tag key to see what somebody may have had to say.
I was rhetorically asking TypeZeiss if he really imagined the Tellem were Ounjougou's 9000 BCE potters, which of course we know they were not.
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