quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Here is another chart I am proposing. Kivilsid have already propose something similar. Stay tuned.
^^^ Here it is, origin of H and R, the primary female and male haplogroups of modern Europeans and less than 12,000 years ago modern European were Africans -12,000 at most they were probably Africans even more recently within 6,000 years ago
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posted
It never stops. More data on discontinuity. That is the problem ….everyone and his brother have access to DNA machines.!!!!
1.0 HVS-I polymorphism screening of ancient human mitochondrial DNA provides evidence for N9a discontinuity and East Asian haplogroups in the Neolithic Hungary
Analysis of mitochondrial mutations in the HVS-I region is an effective method for ancient human populational studies. Discontinuous haplotype data between the first farmers and contemporary Europeans has been described before. Our contribution is based on a survey initiated on the Neolithic skeletons from Hungarian archaeological sites in the Alföld. This Lowland, the Hungarian Plain, is well excavated as an important region for spread of Neolithic culture from Near East and Balkans toward Central and Western Europe, started circa 8000 years ago. HVS-I sequences from nt15977 to nt16430 of 11 such specimens with sufficient mitochondrial DNA preservation among an extended Neolithic collection were analysed for polymorphisms, identifying 23 different ones. After assigning all single-nucleotide polymorphisms, a novel, N9a, N1a, C5, D1/G1a, M/R24 haplogroups were determined. On mitochondrial control mutations at nt16257 and nt16261, polymorphic PCRs were carried out to assess their distribution in remains. Neolithic data set was compared with contemporary Vác samples and references, resulting in higher frequency of N9a in Alföld as a remarkable genetic discontinuity. Our investigation is the first to study mutations form Neolithic of Hungary, resulting in an outcome of Far Eastern haplogroups in the Carpathian Basin. It is worth further investigation as a non-descendant theory, instead of a continuous population history, supporting genetic gaps between ancient and recent human populationsPosts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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You almost had me. Ha! Ha! I never argued that R0/Pre-HV was not found in aDNA in Europe. Over 12ya, that landmark paper on Neolithic farmers disclosed the Neolithics were pre-dominantly N1*.
So I repeat prove to me that mtDNA hg-H is older in Europe than in Africa. All live ancient genetic data thus far shows a presence hg- H in Africa BEFORE Europe indicating the mutation was spawned IN Africa and migrated to Europe. Kefi et al, past and present.
======--------- From the same study you quoted:
Specific mtDNA sites outside HVRI were also analyzed (by amplification, cloning, and sequencing of the surrounding region) to classify more precisely the ancient sequences within the phylogenetic network of present-time mtDNAs (35–36). Paglicci-25 has the following motifs: _7,025 AluI, 00073A, 11719G, and 12308A. Therefore, this sequence belongs to either haplogroups HV or pre-HV, two haplogroups rare in general but with a comparatively HIGH FREQUENCIES among TODAY’S NEAR- EASTERNERS (35). Paglicci-12 shows the motifs 00073G, 10873C, 10238T, and AACC between nucleotide positions 10397 and 10400, which allows the classification of this sequence into the MACROHAPLOGROUP N , containing haplogroups W, X, I, N1a, N1b, N1c, and N*. Following the definition given in ref. 36, the presence of a single mutation in 16,223 within HRVI suggests a classification of Paglicci-12 into the haplogroup N*, which is observed today in several samples from the Near East and, at lower frequencies, in the Caucasus (35). It is difficult to say whether the apparent evolutionary relationship between Paglicci-25 and Paglicci-12 and those populations is more than a coincidence. Indeed, the haplogroups to which the Cro- Magnon type sequences appear to belong are rare among modern samples, and therefore their frequencies are poorly estimated. However, genetic affinities between the first anatomically modern Europeans and current populations of the Near East make sense in the light of the likely routes of Upper Paleolithic human expansions in Europe, as documented in the archaeological record (37).
====----
So who are the Near Easterns. Ref 35? Source not disclosed. If am I a betting man I would say Negev Bedouins or Qataris. Near East is an ambiguos term which may include anyone from Algeria in Africa to the Iranians. The games these people play! They may the same African “basal Eurasian.” LOL!
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Here is another chart I am proposing. Kivilsid have already propose something similar. Stay tuned.
^^^ Here it is, origin of H and R, the primary female and male haplogroups of modern Europeans and less than 12,000 years ago modern European were Africans -12,000 at most they were probably Africans even more recently within 6,000 years ago
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posted
Oh! I came across who the “Near East” population are. Damn! Am I good or what?! From Ref 35. This is rediculous and not really funny. Including African populations and calling them “Near East” and “Middle East”. The games these people play. I believe it is a deliberate attempt to misdirect.. Meaning this has already been resolved by researchers. DTribes disclosure is the first step of many baby steps to acknowledging what I have been saying all along..
----- Edit/Update: Quote from ref 35
The Near Eastern populations analyzed for sequence variation in HVS-I of the mtDNA control region were as follows: 80 Nubians and 67 Egyptians (Krings et al. 1999); 29 Bedouin (Di Rienzo and Wilson 1991); 43 Yemeni Jews, including 5 from the study by Di Rienzo and Wilson (1991); 116 Iraqis, sampled from four regions of Iraq; 12 Iranians, sampled in Iran and Germany; 69 Syrians from Damascus; 146 Jordanians (45 from the Dead Sea region and 101 from the Amman region [V. Cabrera and N. Karadsheh, personal communication]); 117 Israeli Palestinians, including 8 from the study by Di Rienzo and Wilson (1991); 45 Israeli Druze (Macaulay et al. 1999); 218 Turks from Turkey, including 74 from the studies by Comas et al. (1996) and Calafell et al. (1996); 53 Kurds from
PROVE ME WRONG. LOL! Oh! Back in 2000 and 2003 when these papers were written Maghrebians eg Saharawis weren’t sampled for HV/Pre-HV. It is only recently Saharawis and other Amazigh were found to have the highest frequency of HV. BTW – Ethiopians carry the one of the highest frequency of pre-HV/R0 along with Southern Arabians.. Kivilsid et al.
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6-12,000 years ago the ancestors of modern Europeans were living in Africa, their original homeland
It's the H connection, R1b same deal, see the live DATA
Modern Euroepans are much more African than people like Austrailians who have been out of Africa over 50,000 years, perhaps 70Kya
In other words modern Europeans can't be distinguished form African genetically. They were Africans a short time ago, proably 6,000 years ago. All their haplogroups are African, they're Africans
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: xyyman, you convinced me
6-12,000 years ago the ancestors of modern Europeans were living in Africa, their original homeland
It's the H connection
So modern Euroepans are much more African than people like Austrailians who have been out of Africa over 50,000 years, perhaps 70Kya
In other words modern Europeans can't be distinguished form African genetically. They were Africans a short time ago, proably 6,000 years ago. All their haplogroups are African, they're Africans
What do you waste your time discussing stupidity with xyyman?
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Because he knows it's true ....and he is starting to understand genetics a lot more. He is getting my point. And it is getting under his skin. You wouldn't get it.
That said. Ignoring the comment above ....for now.
@ Lioness - just got my hands on the raw data for Ref 25.
And surprise! surprise!
I welcome any counter argument.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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The chart above, pre-HV, is based upon what you cited ref 35. This is an illustration. the raw data is available at University of Oxford website. Maghrebians were NOT sampled in that paper.
Oh! and the chart with M/N is based upon Kivilsid hypothesis which propose that L3/M/N evolved IN Africa. Don't ask me what I am talking about or we are done here. He! He!
Listen - I need to hang out with more intelligent people...sigh.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: xyyman, you convinced me
6-12,000 years ago the ancestors of modern Europeans were living in Africa, their original homeland
It's the H connection
So modern Euroepans are much more African than people like Austrailians who have been out of Africa over 50,000 years, perhaps 70Kya
In other words modern Europeans can't be distinguished form African genetically. They were Africans a short time ago, proably 6,000 years ago. All their haplogroups are African, they're Africans
What do you waste your time discussing stupidity with xyyman?
for his benefit
and that he reads more of the recent articles than other people here
He should post on a forum where there are more people who have genetic backgrounds rather than having it easy on ESR or only me to challenge him
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Sigh retention ...AND comprehension.
Do I have to explain everything?!
If you are going to put up a map that you made and claim it is based on data from an article do a proper job and put up the citation reference and quote along with the map. Otherwise get laughed at. Nobody should be required to retain or have read some earlier post of yours
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Tracing European Founder Lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA Pool
Martin Richards,
===
Many cannot challenge me because many don't understand and just blowing smoke. I understand the frustration of ARTU.
I lurk at a few other sites recently - posters there aren't much better than ES. Infact ESR is much better. Lurkers go there to learn and ask questions. That is why ESR is growing.
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posted
Now finsh the job like other people do with the relevant quote.
Then put it under your chart so readsers can make an easy comparision and see if you ae interpreting the article correctly or distorting cherry picked bits out of it
Does anybody want to read the whole article ?
you need to do this because you have a habit of quoting articles of which the authors are demonstrating a point often opposite of what you are claiming:
_You keep talking about live DATA
-where is the live data in this article that supports your maps?
Just copy and paste the data quotes,
I'm the only one who engages you here, the rest ignore your rantings except for the occaional wink to the crazy Uncle
I read the article yesterday
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
I lurk at a few other sites recently - posters there aren't much better than ES. Infact ESR is much better.
what sites?
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The only other site that comes close to ESR is Dienekes. And it s well moderated also. Europedia is not bad idea.
The following populations have the highest diversity of pre-HV of the populations in that studied. Now I know why they were included in "Near East". Maghrebians were NOT included back in 2000/2003
Quote: ----- Edit/Update: Quote from ref 35
The Near Eastern populations analyzed for sequence variation in HVS-I of the mtDNA control region were as follows: 80 Nubians and 67 Egyptians (Krings et al. 1999); 29 Bedouin (Di Rienzo and Wilson 1991); 43 Yemeni Jews, Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: The only other site that comes close to ESR is Dienekes. And it s well moderated also. Europedia is not bad idea.
The following populations have the highest diversity of pre-HV of the populations in that studied. Now I know why they were included in "Near East". Maghrebians were NOT included back in 2000/2003
Quote: ----- Edit/Update: Quote from ref 35
The Near Eastern populations analyzed for sequence variation in HVS-I of the mtDNA control region were as follows: 80 Nubians and 67 Egyptians (Krings et al. 1999); 29 Bedouin (Di Rienzo and Wilson 1991); 43 Yemeni Jews,
You are talking about modern populations not anceint remains
Abstract In 1965 and 1967, two United Arab Republic - Czechoslovak expeditions examined 600 Egyptian Nubian men, 542 women and 1,744 children, i.e. almost 6% of inhabitants of Old Nubia who had been transferred from their native country to a former desert plain south of the South-Egyptian town of Kom Ombo. Main results were published in about 40 scientific reports, but a comprehensive monograph is still missing. The present report represents one of its basic parts, together with a report on women by F. H. Hussien, defended as a CSc. thesis in 1971. It deals with the original Lower Nubia, its geography, climate, settlement pattern, anthropological development and history of its population as well as with previous anthropological notions on living Nubians. Also the main features of the New Nubia are mentioned. The histories of negotiations with Egyptian authorities, a preparatory course at the Cairo University, both expeditions and their achievements have been outlined. The aims, programme and methods of research and investigation introduce chapters with results. The anamnestic data acquired from the probands included personal data, family structure with data on the number of wives and children and their mortality, birthplaces of the probands, seasonal periodicity of their birth and their health condition. Methods of popular medical treatment are described and the descent group concept is introduced. Anthropometric data divided into cephalometric, somatometric, body composition and functional features are presented for the three Egyptian Nubian ethnic groups and a small sample of the Ababda, the nomads of the Eastern Desert, gradually settling down in Egyptian Nubia. The same features have been analyzed also in four Kenuz, three Arab and five Fadidja village samples. Statistical significance of mutual differences has been tested and discussed. The ancient Arab custom of prevailing endogamous marriages caused in the Nubians an inbreeding depression, connected with delay in growth and development of young males as well as eruption of their third molars. Various dental morphological and orthodontic anomalies were found. Several changes of metric features were proved to affect the 56 to 78-year-old Nubians. Anthroposcopic parameters reflect the influence of dry and hot climate as well as the geographic position of Egyptian Nubia. Of its three ethnic groups, the Kenuz are physically more similar to the Fadidja than both these groups to Nubian Arabs, who are the later immigrants. Egyptian Nubians retained, from the Neolithic times until now, their prevailing Caucasoid character in spite of their successful adaptation to the climate and an almost permanent Black Sudanese gene inflow. The ancient descent group concept still plays a role as an important social bond but creates no physical differences except for a few remnants between members of descent groups with names of Nubian, Arab and Turkish origins.
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Mitochondrial Haplogroup H1 in North Africa: An Early Holocene Arrival from Iberia
you looked a Ottoni ignoring the title and because he noted modern Libyan Tuareg 61% Hap H and you take that to means they are the origin of H, this time ignoring Taforalt "live data" (whatever that means, it's Morocco 12kya. Yet recently you have said that diversity rather than frequency is key
read this agin you didn't retain it:
As for the Libyan Tuareg, the extremely low values of the diversity indices confirm that the outstanding high frequency of H1 in this population is the result of even more recent founder events.
their goes the diversity argument
(an the explanation for the high frequency)
Second problem wiki and other sources date H to 20,000-25,000 YBP that's up to two times plus the Taforalt remains
Did you think to look for other remains older than 12kya that carried H ? Did you consider the time of origin ??
Now looking back to modern population, source: Ottoni
With the exception of Libyan Tuaregs and their founder effect some of the Spanish have higher frequenices of H
So you can throuw out your eyeballing about what "real" and "fake" berbers look like on Clyde's thread
You don't know wht Basques or Libyan Tuaregs look like anyway
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posted
I usually save my best work for ESR but I will indulge you this time.
1. Frequency is NOT a primary indicator of origin(it was used in the early stages until better technology, high resolution came on the scene;-of course some geneticist still use it). Why? Frequency is a indication of greater population growth. That is all. In others words, who fugked the most, ate well and had more bables. Only novice beginners like ARTU and Sweetness use frequency or Coalescence age as an indicator. Coalescene age is, although more reliable than frequency is based on assumptions of the mutation rate. No one knows the exact mutation rate that is why dependinging on author coalescence age can span a 50,000y range swing!!!. 2. Genetic diversity is a better indicator. Why? Because it depends on the amount of mutation in that “gene block” being observed. Gene block may be STR, haplotypes, a gene etc. The origin population usual have a greater number of mutation(variation) in that gene block. Eg that is why Shriver concluded AMH humans left Africa with light skin capability. Also that is why La Brana, although black skinned, is NOT considered recent African ie unlike modern Africans. His diverisity in the studied gene block for skin pigmentation is fixed for dark pigmentation unlike YRI. Hard to believe but YRI is NOT fixed for dark pigmentation. All indication are light skin is a recent phenotype or at least, recently started expanding. Why? I still believe light skin is ancestral. Why? Makova/Rees et al. But that is another topic I covered several years ago. 3. Agreed the low diversity of H1 in Taureg combined with high frequency is consistent with , more fugking, lots of babies and good food, ie founders effect. 4. But as I said before. The only paper that compares diversity on both sides of the Mediterranean Sea is “Pillars of Hercules…”. The authors demonstated that diversity of mtDNA hg-H is more diverse in North Africa compared to Europe. And in Europe, lower Europeans are much more diverse than upper Europeans. See the trend? Get it? 5. I can’t wait to get my hands on the new Kefi 2014 paper which may shed more light on diversity within hg-H along both coast. 6. The other paper you cited, “founding lineage in the near east….” does not included Maghrebians. But even with that there is clear indication that African groups, like Egyptians, Nubians, Bedoiuns and Yemenese have the highest diversity. Granted Iraqis are very high also.(there is no break down of the Iraqi population that was sampled- some Iraqi ethnic groups have strong African influence). 7. “Live data” = results from ACTUAL skeletons from a confirmed period. As I said, Coalscence age is based on mathematical models, assumed mutation rate and statiscal manipulation. Ie NOT as accurate as live data. 8. Agreed, I don’t know what Berbers look like. But two can play that pic spam game. IRREGARDLESS, I did research on the independent struggle of the Amazigh, and my pic spam is a better representation of what these people look like. 9. Oh! Another indicator of origin is UNIQUE haplotyes. That paper on “SLC24A5 in South Asians” disclosed that pygmies have unique haplotypes for, SLC24A5, although the frequency for the A111T? mutation was low in that group.
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I welcome any challenges…that goes for you ARTU. Let’s see what you got? Or shut up and take notes.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] I usually save my best work for ESR but I will indulge you this time.
1. Frequency is NOT a primary indicator of origin(it was used in the early stages until better technology, high resolution came on the scene;-of course some geneticist still use it). Why? Frequency is a indication of greater population growth. That is all. In others words, who fugked the most, ate well and had more bables. Only novice beginners like ARTU and Sweetness use frequency or Coalescence age as an indicator. Coalescene age is, although more reliable than frequency is based on assumptions of the mutation rate. No one knows the exact mutation rate that is why dependinging on author coalescence age can span a 50,000y range swing!!!.
Frequency was why you had the arrows stemming from Libya so you are the guilty party
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: 4. But as I said before. The only paper that compares diversity on both sides of the Mediterranean Sea is “Pillars of Hercules…”. The authors demonstated that diversity of mtDNA hg-H is more diverse in North Africa compared to Europe. And in Europe, lower Europeans are much more diverse than upper Europeans. See the trend? Get it?
it seems to be saying the reverse of what you claim What page and paragraph are you saying that they say Haplogroup H is more diverse in NA than in Europe?
Joining the Pillars of Hercules: mtDNA Sequences. Show Multidirectional Gene Flow in the Western. Mediterranean. S. Plaza1, 2003
posted
Wow! Is this from Pillars of Hercules? I don't remember see this chart. I have to revisit the supplementals.
I expected to see somethng like this in the new Kefi's paper.
Highest diversity is in North Africa cf to Iberia. I am suprise Sicily and Sardinia is that low.
The link is dead.
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4. But as I said before. The only paper that compares diversity on both sides of the Mediterranean Sea is “Pillars of Hercules…”. The authors demonstated that diversity of mtDNA hg-H is more diverse in North Africa compared to Europe. And in Europe, lower Europeans are much more diverse than upper Europeans. See the trend? Get it?
"revisit the supplimentals" or whatever to prove your claim with page reference or quote that this article says diversity of H is higher in NA than in Europe
get your shyt together
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posted
The Magdalenian refers to one of the later cultures of the Upper Paleolithic in western Europe, dating from around 17,000 to 12,000 years ago.[1] It is named after the type site of La Madeleine, a rock shelter located in the Vézère valley, commune of Tursac, in the Dordogne department of France.
Ancient DNA from Hunter-Gatherer and Farmer Groups from Northern Spain Supports a Random Dispersion Model for the Neolithic Expansion into Europe2012
Montserrat Hervella, Neskuts Izagirre, Santos Alonso, Rosa Fregel, Antonio Alonso, Vicente M. Cabrera, Concepción de la Rúa mail
Published: April 25, 2012DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0034417
Results
Authenticity of the results
We have successfully analyzed 49 individuals from nine prehistoric sites and obtained 25 different mitochondrial haplotypes belonging to eight mitochondrial haplogroups (H, U, K, J, HV, I, T and X) (Table 2). Haplogroup H is the major one, showing a frequency of 45% in the ancient samples analysed. This figure is similar to that observed in some present-day European populations including the North of the Iberian Peninsula [13], [32]–[34].
The second most frequent haplogroup was haplogroup U (34.7%) (Table 2), being the Neolithic populations of Navarre (Los Cascajos and Paternanbidea) the ones that showed the highest frequencies for this haplogroup (29.6% and 11.1%, respectively). A special mention should be made of sub-haplogroup U5, as it is one of the oldest found in Europe (~36.9 kya), and has been linked to the colonisation of Europe by anatomically modern Homo sapiens (AMHS) in the Early Upper Paleolithic [13], [35]–[37]. The average frequency of U5 in the present study was 12%, considering hunter-gatherer samples (Erralla and Aizpea), Neolithic samples (Los Cascajos and Marizulo) and the Bronze Age sample (Urtiaga)
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posted
You got an B+ for effort. A decent grade. But more misdirection and deception from Lioness Production.
Your crew need a pay increase. lol!
1. The other link is also dead. 2. What you posted, CAS PAT is ~5000ya for H, AS I SAID. 3. U is predominant in Older populations. AS I SAID.
Seems you are posting stuff to support my view.
YOu got to get your BS together. I don't blow smoke. I know what I am talking about. I check sources!!!!
I need to revisit "Pillars" to source that diversity chart.
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Oh! does your crew read this stuff before posting?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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this is why you can't trust xyyman and it's a waste of time even conversing with him.
The 3 sites at the top of the charts are upper paleolithic European sites in Iberia, not Southern Iberia neigboring Africa but Northern Iberia neighboring France. This destroys what he's been saying for the past several months. The Magdalenian samples in Cantabria, Northern Spain are the oldest 100% confirmed H on Planet Earth,
Ancient DNA from Hunter-Gatherer and Farmer Groups from Northern Spain Supports a Random Dispersion Model for the Neolithic Expansion into Europe 2012
posted
The crackpot quacks on ES crack me up. The quacks use the lack of extant Epi-Palaeolithic Y DNA from Iberia as evidence against Epipalaeolithic Iberian gene-flow to coastal Maghreb, but what they "forget" to mention is that the Y chromosomes that define northern African males are all recent arrivals to the Maghreb; none of them stretch back to the 10-30kya period in which most maternal Maghrebi lineages inhabited the region. For some reason it doesn't seem to dawn on these charlatans that if we're going to use their argument (i.e. "the lack of extant Upper Palaeolithic Eurasian lineages is indicative of a lack of Ibero-Maurusian contact with Europe and asia") at face value, the conclusion will have to be that U6, M1, H1, H3, V and U5 females had offspring on their own (through some as of yet to be substantiated virginal conception mechanism) 30-10kya, until E-M81 and J-M267 arrived in the mid-Holocene and introduced the idea of male-female intercourse. That's the type of dogmatic, faith-based crap we're dealing with.
posted
Someone needs to also inform the H1 crackpots on ES that, despite all their sleight of mouth and deceptions, they can't escape the inconvenient fact that Maghrebi H1 lineages are partitioned into small little sub-clades within the larger H1 clade, which, barring those minor Maghrebi sub-clades, is overwhelming Eurasian. Iberian H1 clades aren't outgrowths of the few Maghrebi- specific H1 subclades. Fraudulently and deceptively calling H1 "Alboran" (I notice these crackpots are quite devious with their labelling [e.g. authors' use of the label "Maghreb" or "Saharan-Arabian" or "basal Eurasian" magically turns into "African", and predictably, every time the slippery charlatans refuse to provide evidence]) isn't going to change that. Of course, they deliberately neglect to inform the unaware public of these inconvenient facts, as desperate and needy as they are to make whatever ancestry they seek to appropriate, seem compatible with crappy claims.
quote:All Tuareg sequences clustered into three clades that had not been previously reported and thus were termed H1v, H1w and H1x. Five sequences grouped into the sub-clade H1v1 defined by the transition at np 4313. One Tunisian sequence (# 8) did not cluster into H1v1 but was closely related, since it harbored the mutation at 10314 that defines the clade H1v (Figure 1). The sub-clade H1v1 splits into two branches defined by the transitions at np 9148 (clade H1v1a) and 14560 (clade H1v1b). Three Tuareg mtDNAs formed the novel clade H1w that is defined by the transition at np 8966, while the last three Tuareg mtDNAs, apart from the HVS-I transitions at 16037 and 16256, were found to harbor mutations at nps 7765 and 10410 in the coding region (clade H1x).
posted
(smile)I am not sure I follow the argument. Is that brotha proposing that YDNA Haplogroup E is Eurasian? Wake me up from the dream. Someone?
Let me see if I got this right. MtDNA H from Iberia and YDNA E migrants from Arabia? North Africa seems to be a mating ground. you know...a brothel.
Arabs hooking up with white women who left their white men behind in Europe.
Sweetness , did I get that right?
Wake me up someone this is a really bad movie script. Would only come from the imagination of creative writer.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The crackpot quacks on ES crack me up. The quacks use the lack of extant Epi-Palaeolithic Y DNA from Iberia as evidence against Epipalaeolithic Iberian gene-flow to coastal Maghreb, but what they "forget" to mention is that the Y chromosomes that define northern African males are all recent arrivals to the Maghreb; none of them stretch back to the 10-30kya period in which most maternal Maghrebi lineages inhabited the region. For some reason it doesn't seem to dawn on these charlatans that if we're going to use their argument (i.e. "the lack of extant Upper Palaeolithic Eurasian lineages is indicative of a lack of Ibero-Maurusian contact with Europe and asia") at face value, the conclusion will have to be that U6, M1, H1, H3, V and U5 females had offspring on their own (through some as of yet to be substantiated virginal conception mechanism) 30-10kya, until E-M81 and J-M267 arrived in the mid-Holocene and introduced the idea of male-female intercourse. That's the type of dogmatic, faith-based crap we're dealing with.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: (smile)I am not sure I follow the argument. Is that brotha proposing that YDNA Haplogroup E is Eurasian? Wake me up from the dream. Someone?
Let me see if I got this right. MtDNA H from Iberia and YDNA E migrants from Arabia? North Africa seems to be a mating ground. you know...a brothel.
Arabs hooking up with white women who left their white men behind in Europe.
Sweetness , did I get that right?
Wake me up someone this is a really bad movie script. Would only come from the imagination of creative writer.
admittedly what he wrote was not that clearly written for the layman but the brotha is still correct
we are dealing with Upper Paleolithic remains for example the Erralia (Gipuzkoa) site in Spain is dated
12,310 BP
The thing is this article did not analyze Y DNA
>> nor did Kefi on the Taforalt, it was mitochondrial only
(and the Y may have been unrecoverable)
so don't assume that they were E carriers
The Taforalt were of the Iberomaurusian culture. They had a robust bone structure similar to Northern Europeans
They were replaced by the Capsians, the last hunter gatherers who had more gracile proportions. They are more recent
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posted
Deleted post. If anyone H1 crackpot feels like taking a crack (no pun intended) at refuting my post about H1, it's up there. If not, carry on. Very entertaining.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
The problem is 'Iberomaurusian' mostly describes a microlithic industry. Similar assemblages existed in central Africa.
Posts: 318 | Registered: Dec 2004
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I analyzed the paper on the Taureg several years ago. I will revist your H1.
@Lioness. Let me get this straight. So you and Sweetness are stating that the both studies did not analyze aYDNA only mtDNA. And you are suggesting that European aYDNA remains to be discovered in North Africa?
So we are back to the European men got killed off or "went back home". LOL! Good God!
This is like Rocky 8....a really really bad movie that has been played out.
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My bad! I just took a quick browse on the Taureg paper(H1). Goes to show Sweetness do NOT understand what he reads. Just reading the abstract their hypothesis is clear.
The clown does not understand they are back to "coalescene age". They are using Achilli/Torronni paper on back migration from Iberia as their starting point....which is based on coalescene age. From that "jump off" point they then analyzed H1 in the Taureg.
Man..you are proving to be dumber everyday. Why don't you give up on the coalescene age nonsense and do some indepth research. Stop reading the title/headlines and assume it supports your view.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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You can't have it both ways Sweetness. Based upon H1 frequency migration direction is to Europe(see chart below). Based upon H1 diversity migraton direction is also to Europe.
Goes to shows you don't understand what you read ...crack put??
This is from YOUR study. give it up man. You are no match for me. Argue with ARTU he has a simple mind. Lioness is manipulative, stay away from him!
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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You are citing studies that you think supports your point of view. In the words of Mike...Damn...
Please don't waste my time. It took me all but 10min to break this down and you want do discuss this stuff with me. GTFOH!
Oh! to the Brothas who propose hg-H are from white women slaves during historical time. You do realize that Kefi work on 12000ya skeletons debunks that theory.
Man I can't wait for her(Kefi) new paper comparing ALL mediterranean populations. That will put a nail in the coffin of Achille and Torroni.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I expect Kefi(2014) paper will reinforce!!
We don't deal with expectations and wishful thinking just facts. And expecting a new paper from an an author who recorded and indicated European haplgroups in prehistoric North Africa to reinforce you is counterintuitive
Montserrat Hervella,2012
^^^ see this?
H
ERRALLA, Northern Spain
12,310 BP
^^this destroys the BS you have been spewing for months
further, LA PASIEGA and LA CHORA are older than that
forget it xyyman, this wraps you up
now you can stop saying 5,000 years, misleading people
Cold Adapted people from Europe brought their haplogroups to the Maghreb. They settled on the North coast coast and were isolated from the rest of Africa Later they were repalaced by other hunter gatherers, the Capsians
Posts: 42925 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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So, which of the Tuareg H1 types spawned all the European H1 types? H1v, H1w or H1x? There are only three basic H1 subclades among the Tuareg, gramps.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [qb] You can't have it both ways Sweetness. Based upon H1 frequency migration direction is to Europe(see chart below). Based upon H1 diversity migraton direction is also to Europe.
posted
xyyman the other Pillars of Hercules chart you circled in red is not a chart of hap H It is a chart compiling all of these below hgs Hg H is only one of them
posted
Right! right!...Tauregs are the ONLY hg-H carring Amazigh in North Africa? sic Guess you still missing the point. Highest diverity is IN Africa!!!
Stick to the dozebs with the lunatic
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: So, which of the Tuareg H1 types spawned all the European H1 types? H1v, H1w or H1x? There are only three basic H1 subclades among the Tuareg, gramps.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [qb] You can't have it both ways Sweetness. Based upon H1 frequency migration direction is to Europe(see chart below). Based upon H1 diversity migraton direction is also to Europe.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Look, I am out. This is childs play. when the Kefi paper is posted we can talk then.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
I told you the H1 fruitbaskets are lying ass charlatans. They lie, deceive, misrepresent and manipulate the data, just to preserve their little fantasies. Disgusting.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: He is showing this diversity chart of 21 haplogroups including H (and L) and is pretending it it is only H
posted
Just when I was about to leave they drag me back in....
This is from ESR Jan 2013!!! Johnny come lately...Yaaaawn!!. I am bored.
=== Mitochondrial Haplogroup H1 in North Africa: An Early Holocene Arrival from Iberia
Antonio Torroni5 , Alessandro Achilli et al
Excerpt
There is an evident frequency peak in the Central Sahara associated with the Libyan Tuareg, who show the highest frequency value (61%) among all the populations considered in the analysis. Since the high frequency of H1 in the Libyan Tuareg is most likely the result of random genetic drift and founder events, we also investigated the H1 distribution removing the Libyan Tuareg sample and thus leaving only previously reported data (Figure 3). As expected, frequency peaks in the European continent were observed in the Iberian Peninsula, whereas in Northern Africa the rather high frequency values in Morocco and [u]Tunisia [/u]became apparent. More southward, among the Tuareg from the Sahel region [37], a frequency peak is also observed. To further evaluate the extent of H1 variation in the Tuareg from Libya relative to that of Moroccans, Tunisians and Sahelian Tuareg samples (****AND IBERIAN!!!!****), HVS-I data from the four groups were employed to calculate the diversity indices reported in Table 2. The sharp homogeneity of H1 in the Libyan Tuareg, who show extremely low values of haplotype diversity (0.165), is straightforward. Moroccans, Tunisians and the Tuareg from Sahel were found to be much more diverse than the Libyan Tuareg, with haplotype diversities of 0.577, 0.633 and 0.595, respectively. Similarly, the values of nucleotide diversity and average number of nucleotide differences observed in Morocco (0.309 and 1.056), Tunisia (0.316 and 1.081) and among the Tuareg from Sahel (0.234 and 0.800) are all much higher than those of the Libyan Tuareg (0.098 and 0.335).
Indeed, Moroccans and TUNISIANS, the populations geographically closest to Europe, harbor the highest diversity values for all considered indices. Thus, the coastal areas of northwestern Africa, after the arrival of the Iberian founder H1 mtDNAs, probably acted as centers for the subsequent diffusion of H1 in the internal regions of North Africa.
NOOOO!!! – conversely !!! Thus, the coastal areas of Europe, after the arrival of the Tunisian founder H1 mtDNAs, probably acted as centers for the subsequent diffusion of H1 in the internal regions of Europe
Someone talk me off the ledge. For those who can follow. See above. I wonder how long they will keep up the lie(delusion) of Iberia being a source of mt-DNA H1. The more I read the more I am convinced it is Central North Africa maybe present day Tunisia.
There are essentially two ways of determining origin of a Haplogroup eg mt-DNA H1.
1. Geographic Frequency
2. Resolution(think magnifying glass) = older HG shows more variation or diversity
Eg Africans have more genetic diversity ie older….The data shows, yet again, just as in other recent studies, the diversity of H1 is higher in Tunisia compared to all other African groups, even larger than Morocco the supposedly entry point of Europeans into North Africa.
Notice also they did NOT include the diversity value for Iberia or Sardinia(2nd Image table). Common sense or simple logic states they should have include Iberia. Why? Their premise. the H1 is older in Iberia and was the jump off point, Iberia should have the highest diversity. There wouldn’t be any doubt if Iberia was included. Iberia however was NOT included in the data set.
That is really suspicious. Now they may put it out there that the intent of the study was to the origin of H1 IN Africa. But even that is wrong, the data shows Tunisia NOT Morocco has the highest H1 diversity in Africa. Which proves their premise FALSE. Someone tell me I am wrong!! Am I the most intelligent here?
So the title of the study is…again…misleading. Their lies are really sophisticated. There is no proof of what they are saying. The data shows essentially there was H1 migration from Tunisia(CAN) to the rest of North Africa and not from Morocco to the rest of North Africa.
Essentially, they started with the premise/fantasy of Iberian women(not men-but give the impression men were included) migrating over to Africa without providing that data however the data prove the migration from Tunisia to the rest of North African….not even Morocco!! To date there is no genetic data showing European males migrating to Africa pre-Iron age.
They will soon rescind that nonsense theory about back-migration of European women into North Africa. Give Torroni a few more years , he is BSing just much as Cruciani. Remember Cruciani et al and back migration of E1b1b from Asia to North Africa. Which was proven wrong. Then R-V88 back-migration to Cameroon area which was also recently proven wrong.
Got to admit these guys got some Kahunas!!. I guess they believe no one can understand this stuff.
Note(2nd image):
MOST mtDNA H Haplotype diversity= Tunisia
MOST nucleotide diversity = Tunisia
MOST Avg number of nucleotide differences= Tunisia
Most Number of Haplotypes = Tunisia is a close second
Highest frequency H1 is Tunisia/Libya are (including Europe) – 1 st image
From previous study, highest frequency of H* is Tunisia and Iberians Peninsula/Levant.
There is a common theme here….Tunisia
The only thing they are relying on for an Iberian origin is COALESCENCE age , which error can vary by +/-10K years….ANYONE?!
Come to think of it was coalescence age also used to explain the back-migration of E1b1b to North Africa? Got to research that.
The only thing they are relying on for an Iberian origin is COALESCENCE age , which error can vary by +/-10K years….ANYONE?!
posted
Also noteworthy, from the same paper. Lioness, the answer to your question how I know that the Ibero- Maurusian Y Chromosomal counterparts to U6', which went (mostly) extinct when E-M81 and other mid-holocene haplogroups arrived from the east, weren't predominantly African haplogroups:
quote: U6 represents, thus, a local background in NW Africa. Its relatively low frequency (∼10% overall, although ranging from absence in Algeria to 28.2% in the Mozabites) is in stark contrast with the high frequency of Y-chromosome haplogroup E3b2∗ (64%; Bosch et al. 2001), which may also have originated (or expanded to such high frequency) locally in NW Africa. This discrepancy may be the result of ancient, random, locus-specific drift, and/or of a male-biased bottleneck or migration. A locus specific effect may be evidenced by the fact that AMOVA between Iberian and NW African populations is much higher for Y chromosome haplogroups than for multiple autosomal Alu insertion polymorphisms or mtDNA. Since men contribute their autosomes as well, the fact that population differentiation [between Europeans and NW Africans] as demonstrated by autosomal loci is much closer to that for mtDNA than to that for the Y chromosome may be taken as evidence for ancient, random, locus-specific drift affecting the Y chromosome.
I've been saying this for ages: the high levels of E-M81 among Berber speakers is not informative of their true amount of African ancestry. That E-M81 peaks in modern day Maghrebi populations is simply the result of founder effect and/or other drift mechanisms.
That's why people here resort to pathetic labelling games where they manipulate an autosomal ancestral component which is thoroughly Eurasian (as adjudged by Fst), and count it as African ancestry, simply because it's labelled "Maghreb". How people can lie, distort and deceive so much is beyond me.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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