I got in my hand the book called The Meroitic Language and Writing System By Rilly and Voogt
In the Conclusion (p.174) you can read:
quote: Both the lexical and morphological correspondences have left no doubt that the Meroitic language shares an origin with Nilo-Saharan Group of North Eastern Sudanic.
It adds on p177:
quote:These lexical elements direct the Urheimat toward the Sahel region rather than the Nile. The geographic distribution of the NES languages follows the same idea. Out of the three branches of North Eastern Sudanic, Taman and Nyima are the last to split off and are found in the Darfur-Kordofan region. If the principle of least movement is followed, this would also be the area of origin for the Nubians. It is likely that here proto-NES first appeared.
It must also be noted that while modern Nubian languages, like Nobiin, are closely related to the Meroitic language, they are not a child language to Meroitic but a sister language. Nubian languages doesn't descend from Meroitic, they both share a common ancestor language.
quote:The movements of the Proto-Nubians, the third group of the Eastern branch, are more difficult to reconstruct. As argued elsewhere (Rilly 2008), it is not plausible that they ever reached the Nile prior to the end of the Meroitic Kingdom in the third century AD. On the other hand, the chronology of phonetics changes in the Nubian languages indicates that the split in the Nubian groups did not occur much prior to this date. The proximity of proto-Nubian and Meroitic , despite two millennia of separation, and Meroitic's conservative character in relation to proto-NES are such that they presuppose a relatively isolated position during a long period. The phonology of proto-Nubian, for instance, was not affected by influences that changed Meroitic or Nyimang phonology. It is likely that the Proto-Nubians were nomads wandering between still hospitable zones until the first millennium BC. Some portion of the middle part of Wadi Howar or the valley of Gebel Tageru may have served that purpose.
It must be said that this also goes in line with the ancient DNA (aDNA) analysis of neolithic remains in Sudan which shows A-M13 being the main haplogroup among early settlers. A-M13 is prevalent in Sudan among modern day Dinka (62%), Shilluk (53%), Borgu (35%).
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Rowan (2006, 2011), on the other hand, notes that the Meroitic sound inventory and phonotactics (the only aspects of the language which are secure) are similar to those of the Afroasiatic languages, and dissimilar from Nilo-Saharan languages.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Rowan (2006, 2011), on the other hand, notes that the Meroitic sound inventory and phonotactics (the only aspects of the language which are secure) are similar to those of the Afroasiatic languages, and dissimilar from Nilo-Saharan languages.
I'm not sure but I think, this is old news. Recent advancement in the decipherment of the Meroitic language leaves no doubt that it is a Nilo-Saharan language. You can also note the genetic correspondence from the aDNA study.
Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
I remember Clyde Winters saying that the Meroitic script was from India.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Unfortunate choice of words. Other than some enclaves here and there, there is not a single language in Africa, modern or ancient, which does not originate from black Africans.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Unfortunate choice of words. Other than some enclaves here and there, there is not a single language in Africa, modern or ancient, which does not originate from black Africans.
Well, nowadays there's also European and Arabic languages spoken in Africa. But I understand what you mean, those languages are not indigenous to Africa. They were brought "recently" during the European colonisation and Arab conquest respectively. By stating that Nilo-Saharans are black Africans, I'm stating the obvious of course. Which is always good imo. As everything starts with a strong foundation.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: I got in my hand the book called The Meroitic Language and Writing System By Rilly and Voogt
In the Conclusion (p.174) you can read:
quote: Both the lexical and morphological correspondences have left no doubt that the Meroitic language shares an origin with Nilo-Saharan Group of North Eastern Sudanic.
It adds on p177:
quote:These lexical elements direct the Urheimat toward the Sahel region rather than the Nile. The geographic distribution of the NES languages follows the same idea. Out of the three branches of North Eastern Sudanic, Taman and Nyima are the last to split off and are found in the Darfur-Kordofan region. If the principle of least movement is followed, this would also be the area of origin for the Nubians. It is likely that here proto-NES first appeared.
It must also be noted that while modern Nubian languages, like Nobiin, are closely related to the Meroitic language, they are not a child language to Meroitic but a sister language. Nubian languages doesn't descend from Meroitic, they both share a common ancestor language.
quote:The movements of the Proto-Nubians, the third group of the Eastern branch, are more difficult to reconstruct. As argued elsewhere (Rilly 2008), it is not plausible that they ever reached the Nile prior to the end of the Meroitic Kingdom in the third century AD. On the other hand, the chronology of phonetics changes in the Nubian languages indicates that the split in the Nubian groups did not occur much prior to this date. The proximity of proto-Nubian and Meroitic , despite two millennia of separation, and Meroitic's conservative character in relation to proto-NES are such that they presuppose a relatively isolated position during a long period. The phonology of proto-Nubian, for instance, was not affected by influences that changed Meroitic or Nyimang phonology. It is likely that the Proto-Nubians were nomads wandering between still hospitable zones until the first millennium BC. Some portion of the middle part of Wadi Howar or the valley of Gebel Tageru may have served that purpose.
It must be said that this also goes in line with the ancient DNA (aDNA) analysis of neolithic remains in Sudan which shows A-M13 being the main haplogroup among early settlers. A-M13 is prevalent in Sudan among modern day Dinka (62%), Shilluk (53%), Borgu (35%).
/ The Nubians were never part of the Meroitic empire. Meroitic was not a Nilo-Saharan language and definitely not Nubian.
The insistence on making Ethiopia=Kush has also affected how we percieve who the Kushites were. Whereas, the Kushites in Meroitic constantly acknowledged that the Nubians were their enemy people continue to maintain that the Nubians were Kushites.
/
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Meroitic Writing and Literature
Meroitic Writing and Literature is divided into three parts. The first part of the book explains how I used the Kushana hypothesis to decipher the Meroitic script. It will outline the Classical literature that informed my decipherment of Meroitic and how Buddhists early settled in Upper Egypt and the Meroitic Empire and spread their religion and writing system: Tocharian.
In Part two we outline the grammar of Meroitic. It will provide readers with a detailed overview of the Meroitic language and its grammar.
Part Three provides translations of key Meroitic text. These texts provide knowledge of the lifeway’s of the Meroites especially their religion and some historical data.
The Meroitic literature discussed in this book include : The Inscriptions of Tanyidamani; The Meroitic Chamber Inscription of Philae; and Meroitic Evidence for a Blemmy Empire in the Dodekaschoinas. These text were chosen because they include text written in archaic Meroitic (Tanyidemani), and other text written in late Meroitic.
Meroitic Writing and Literature, is the first account of the Meroitic language and literature. It will allow readers the opportunity to learn how to read/decipher Meroitic text, while acquiring an intimate knowledge of the Meroites as individuals.
The Meroitic Language, provides a detailed account of the language of the Kushites who founded the Meroitic Empire. In Meroitic Language, Dr. Winters explains his decipherment of the Meroitic language and provides an outline of the grammar of the Meroitic language.
Meroitic language provides readers with the necessary tools to read the Meroitic inscriptions.It also gives the reader key insight into the culture and religion of the Kushites.
Meroitic Language can be purchased at Scribd. Purchase the full version and... • Read the full version in your browser • Send to mobile device • Download as pdf (PDF) • Download as txt (Text file)
Clyde what language family is Meriotic in?
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
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I also present aspects of Meroitic grammar in my paper on the Kalabsha Inscription .
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There is increasing evidence that the Beja may provide a key to fully understanding the Meroitic language. Some years ago I deciphered the Kharamadoye inscription.
…… Hrmdoye ne qor ene ariteñ lne mdes ne mni-t kene mk lebne ye re qe-ne q yi-t hl-ne y es bo he-ne q r lebne tro. S-ne ariteñ net er ek li s-ne d-b li lh ne q r kene qor ene mnpte.
This was heard already before 1670 years at a moment the Blemmyan King Kharamadoye drove his compatriots to a point of national statehood at the northern area of the then ailing Meroitic kingdom in what is today's Sudanese North and Egyptian South. Using Meroitic scripture, the scribes of Kharamadoye immortalized down to our times an inscription on walls of the Mandulis temple at Talmis (modern Kalabsha). The beginning of the inscription reads in a plausible English translation as follows:
Kharamadoye the monarch and chief of the living Ariteñ, the great son and patron of Amani, you (who) revitalizes (man). The lord's voyage of discovery indeed gives the creation of Good. Act (now Amani) he travels to support good. Make a good welfare swell (for) the offering of the Chief, (he) desires indeed the restoration of eminence. The patron of good Ariteñ bows in reverence (before Amani) to evoke exalted nourishment (for) the patrons to leave a grand and exalted legacy to behold good. Oh Amani make indeed (a) revitalization (of) the monarch (and) commander of Great Napata…..”
When I first saw this claim that the Beja, represented the Blemmyan people of the Meroitic and Egyptian inscriptions I thought it might be hollow indeed. But after comparing Meroitic to Beja, the claim has considerable merit.
To test the hypothesis that the Beja language was related to meroitic, I compared Meroitic and Beja. The Beja material comes from Klaus and Charlotte Wedekind and Abuzeinab Musa, Beja Pedagogical Grammar (http://www.afrikanistik-online.de/archiv/2008/1283/beja_pedagogical_grammar_final_links_numbered.pdf ) ,
What I found from this cursory examination was most interesting. I will need to gather more vocabulary items from Beja, but I did find a number of matches:
Meroitic ……English……….. Beja i ‘arrive at this point’ ………… bi ‘went’ t ‘he, she’ ……………………..ta ‘she’ ya ‘go’………………………….yak ‘start’ rit ‘look’……………………….rhitaa ‘you saw’ an(a) plural suffix……………..aan ‘these’ d(d) ‘say’………………………di(y) ‘say’ lb ‘energy, dynamic…………liwa ‘burn’ ken ‘to realize’……………….kana ‘to know’ bk ‘ripen’……………………..bishakwa ‘to be ripe’
The vocabulary items are interesting, but since they come from a grammar book there was not enough to provide an extensive comparison.
Meroitic and Beja share many grammatical features. For example, the pronouns are usually can be placed in front or at the end verbs e.g., Beja ti bi ‘she went’, Meroitic t-i ‘he goes’. In Beja, adi is used to indicate complete action Taman adi ‘I ate it completely’, Meroitic –a, serves the same purpose akin ne a ‘he has become completely learned’. In both languages the adverb is placed behind the noun Beja takii-da ‘small man’, Meroitic pt ‘praise’: pt es ‘manifest praise’. In Beja the future tense is form by ndi, Tami a ndi “I will eat’, Meroitic –n, s-ne yo-n Aman ‘The patron will bow in reverence to Aman’.
This makes it clear to me that the Beja language may be related to Meroitic and that the Beja represent the Blemmy nation of Old.
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Clyde what language family is Meriotic in?
I used Tocharian to decipher the Meroitic language. Tocharian was a trade language and kharosthi script..
Meroitic is a Niger-Congo language.
Meroitic Relationships to African Languages
The great savant Cheikh Anta Diop (1974,1981) was convinced that many West African groups had formerly lived in the Egypto-Nubian region before they migrated to West Africa(Diop,1974). He supported this hypothesis with a discussion of the cognation between the names for gods in Egypt-Nubia and West Africa (Diop,1974), Egypto-Nubian and West African ethnomyns and toponyms common to both regions (Diop,1981) and West African and Egyptian languages.
There are many relationships between Meroitic and other African languages. For example, In Oromo/Galla, the term for queen is 'gifti'; and both 'naaga-ta" in Somali and Wolof 'jigen' mean woman. These terms appear to be related to Kdi > gti/e.
Yet even though we find cognition between some Cushitic and Nubian we can not use these languages to completely decipher Meroitic as proven by many past researchers. The Tocharian language on the otherhand, does allow us to read Meroitic and show its relationship with other African languages.
A comparison of Meroitic to African langauges indicate that Meroitic is closely related to langauges spoken in West Africa. Like Meroitic, the pronoun is often a suffix in other African languages. This suffix of the third person singular is usually n-, in other African languages. For example:
Bambara: no p r i 'his house' Kpelle: nyin 'his tooth' Akan: ni dan 'his house'
The Meroitic a- third person singular affix is also found in other African languages. For example: Swahili: (1) a-ta kwenda 'he's going to go' (2) a-li-kwenda 'he is here' Manding: (1) ya zo 'he has come' (2) ya shirya mana 'he prepared (it) for us'.
The use of -i particle to form nouns in Meroitic correspond to the use of the -it and -ayy suffixes to form nouns in Wolof. The Wolof abstract noun formative suffix is -it, -itt, e.g., dog 'to cut', dogit 'sharpness'.
In Wolof abstract nouns are also formed by the addition of the suffix -ayy, and in Dyolo -ay, e.g., baax 'good', baaxaay 'goodness'.
Prefixes are rarely used in Meroitic. The most common prefixes include the prefix of reinforcement -p, the intensive prefix -a and the imperfect prefix -b. The p-, can be either the prefix of reinforcement e.g., ŝ 'patron', p-ŝ 'the patron' ; or the imperfect prefix e.g.,ŝiñ'satisfaction', p-ŝiñ "continuous satisfaction'.
The Meroitic p- affix, means ‘the’. This Meroitic grammatical element corresponds to the Egyptian demonstrative pi 'the'.
In Meroitic, the –o element is used to change a noun into an adjective. The Meroitic –o suffix, agrees with the use affix –u, joined to a vowel, in other African languages to form adjectives. In Swahili, many adjectives are formed by the k- consonant plus the vowel -u : Ku. For example: (1) imba 'sing' ; zuri 'fine' Kuimba kuzuri 'Fine singing' (2) -bivu 'ripe' Kuiva 'to ripen' (3) -bovu 'rotten' Kuoza 'to rot'.
In Meroitic the plural case was made by the suffix -b, or reduplication. Reduplication was also used as a plural effect in Meroitic, e.g., d'donations',d-d 'considerable donations'.
Reduplication is also used in other African languages to express the idea of abundance and diversity. For example, Swahili: Chungu kikavunjika vipande vipnade. "The cooking pot broke into pieces".
The Meroitic use of the -b suffix to make the plural number, corresponds to the use of the -ba- affix in African languages. In the Bantu languages the plural is formed by the ba- affix. In the Manding group of languages we see use of the -ba suffix. In Manding, the -ba affix is joined to nouns to denote the idea of physical or moral greatness. For example: (1) na-folo 'good, rich' na-folo-ba 'great fortune' (2) so-kalo 'piece' so-kalo-ba 'considerable quarter of a village'.
In the Meroitic inscriptions there is constant mention of the khi 'body, spirit', the kha 'the abstract personality', the kho 'a shinning or translucent spirit soul'; and the Ba 'soul'. In many African languages the term Ba, is used to denote the terms 'soul or to be'. For example: Egyptian: Ba Mbachi : Ba Coptic : Bai Bambara : Be Fang : Be.
The kha, existed within and without the human body. It would remain with the body until its flesh decayed, then it would either leave the tomb or hunt it. The Meroitic idea of Kha, as a spirit corresponds to Ka, in many African languages. For example:
Egyptian : Ka Manding : Ka Banda : Ka.
The linguistic evidence makes it clear that some of the Meroites may have spoken languages that belonged to the Niger-Congo-Mande family of languages. This is supported by the linguistic evidence of shared grammatical forms and lexical items between Meroitic and Niger-Congo-Mande discussed in this chapter.
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
EGYPTIAN INFLUENCE ON MEROITIC
The Kushites and Egyptians had a close relationship for millennia. As a result the Egyptians had a tremendous influence on the culture of the Kushites, especially in the area of religion .
As early as the 12th dynasty the Egyptians controlled Nubia. After 1674 BC, the Kerma rulers regained control of Nubia until the raise of the New Kingdom. Pharaohs of the New Kingdom ruled Egypt for 500 years.
Nubia gained independence after the decline of Egypt in 1085 B.C. During this period the Kushites developed a highly developed civilization at Napata and Meroe (880 B.C.-A. D. 350). Over time the Kushites became strong enough to conqueror Egypt and found the 25th Dynasty.
The long association of Egypt and Nubia suggest that the Egyptians may have influenced more than the culture of the Kushites. In this paper we will review the affinities between the Egyptian and Meroitic languages.
Ll. Griffith during his decipherment of Meroitic (M.) found many Egyptian (E.) terms . These terms were especially used in the political culture area e.g., E. p-sy-n-nsw 'son of king' >M. pesto 'king's foothold/foundation of light' .
Now that we have more evidence about the Meroitic language we can now compare Egyptian and Meroitic to determine if there are any other similarities between these languages. Below are some Meroitic terms that illustrate the influence of Egyptian on Meroitic.
Egyptian Meroitic m 'do not' ma not, no nd 'homage' net 'bow in reverence'
r 'to, into' r id. se 'son' s id. s y 'satisfaction' se-ne 'to be satisfied' ss 'writing, scribe' ssor 'scribe' s w 'to protect' s 'to protect' di 'give' d id. t ' thou' t id. t 'earth' te 'land' k i 'high' kha 'great' hc'w 'body' khe 'spirit, body' rc 'likewise' r 'like' bi 'good deed' bli 'right, order' b 'soul' b, be id. ssmt 'stewart' ssimte id. p-mr-msc 'general, stategus' pelmos id. p-sy-n-nsw 'son of the king' pesto st "Isis' Wos id. Wsir 'Osiris Sore id. nfr 'good' na, n ti 'here' t
Several aspects of Demotic grammar agree with Meroitic structure. This is especially true in relation to the formation of the adjective case and the use of pronouns.
The Meroitic funerary tablets are written in the third or second person. Meroitic words are usually formed by the addition of post-positions or suffixes. The Meroitic pronouns are suffixed to Meroitic words. They include, -te 'you, thou'; -t 'her, he'; ne 'his'; -to 'your'; and the -n and a third person singular suffixes. For example:
-n s/he, it, her, his i "go", i-n 'he goes' de 'bequeathal', de-n 'his bequeathal' qe 'make' , qe-n 'he makes'
In Demotic we see use of suffixial pronouns. For example: sdm 'hear' sdmy 'I hear' sdm .f 'he hear' sdm hr-f 'he will hear'
In Meroitic the adjective is placed behind the noun. For example,
e 'complete' ŝ on tene 'The king commence(s) the rebirth'. ŝ on tene-e 'The king commence(s) the complete rebirth'.
Adjectives in Demotic are also placed behind the noun. For example:
rmt hm ' small man' ŝy nfr ' good fate' ssw sbk ' few days'
The -m suffix was used in Meroitic to denote the negative effect. The negative particle -m, is often joined to verbs along with the pronoun. For example: mi-n 'injure him', mi-m-n 'injure him not'.
In Meroitic tablets the negative suffix rarely appears.
The Egyptian negative particle m, agrees with Meroitic. In Demotic the negative particle mn-, is prefixed, e.g., mn lh gm hw 'no fool finds profit'.
In the short review above of Egyptian and Meroitic cognates we can see the obvious influence of Egyptian, especially Demotic on Meroitic. This influence was shown not only in vocabulary but also grammatical features.
This linguistic material discussed above clearly suggest some Egyptian substrata influence on Meroitic. It indicates Egyptian influence on both the structure and vocabulary of Meroitic.
It is very interesting to note that much of the affinity between Meroitic and Egyptian is based on Demotic examples. This may be explained by the fact that Demotic was used by the Kushites during the 25th Dynasty, and forms the foundation for the Meroitic writing.
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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Bob Offer-Westort
Rilly and de Voogt's book is meant to fill a perceived gap in English-language literature on recent advances in research into Meroitic—the as-yet untranslatable ancient language of Sudan, recorded in inscriptions in phonetic demotic and hieroglyphic scripts derived from Egyptian. The gap is real: The Répertoire d'Épigraphie Méroïtique (Directory of Meroitic Epigraphy) was published in three volumes in 2000, collecting all known Meroitic inscriptions published through 1999. After a fervor of Franco-American activity through the Meroitic Newsletter in the '60s, '70s, and early '80s, Rilly and de Voogt tell us that from 1991 to 2007, there were no published monographs on Meroitic. The drought was broken by Rilly's 2007 La langue du royaume de Méroé: Un panorama de la plus ancienne culture écrite d'Afrique subsaharienne and his 2010 La méroïtique et sa famille linguistique. The volume currently reviewed attempts to make the conclusions of Rilly's 2007 and 2010 works available to an anglophone audience.
The problem is that the author starts his exposition from his conclusions. We are issued assurances again and again that actually merit a grain of salt. We are rarely shown the background research that leads to conclusions. It appears that much of this research is presented in the original French publications, but this is of little use to the critical non-francophone reader, or the critical reader who does not have ready access to expensive French academic publications: It is only of use to the anglophone reader who will unquestioningly accept Rilly's claims as a starting point.
This comes up at many points, but it is perhaps nowhere clearest than in the third chapter, 'Linguistic Affiliation', which is central to the arguments of the book. First, Rilly not showing his work:
quote:Before lexical correspondences between Meroitic and North Eastern Sudanic (NES) languages are presented, it is necessary to explain why NES languages are the better candidate for the linguistic position of Meroitic. This was demonstrated at length by Rilly in 2010 through a large-scale comparison within all Nilo-Saharan branches. The presentation of such a comparison is beyond the scope of this volume. Similarly, the reconstructions of proto-Nubian and proto-NES are the result of extensive comparative research that necessarily precedes the lexical correspondences presented here. (p. 90)
In Rilly's defense, an appendix gives 200 lexemes used for the reconstruction of proto-North Eastern Sudanic. However, that appendix leaves more than ample room for questioning: Proto-NES is built on Nara (terms often collected by Rilly himself, though it seems more reasonable to extend some trust, here), and three proto-languages: proto-Nubian, proto-Taman, and proto-Nyima. We understand from earlier in the book that the proto-Nubian reconstruction is Rilly's own (from 2010), but it's not clear where the proto-Taman and proto-Nyima sources come from. Proto-languages are an area of linguistic work that is particularly susceptible to confirmation bias. A proto-language built on proto-languages is especially open to questioning. While it would make sense for a 2012 publication to build on research conducted in 2010 and not repeat that research, it is frustrating when that 2012 publication is meant to present the 2010 research to a new public, but does not show how results were achieved, or even adequately list sources.
Rilly and de Voogt then move on to the claim that there are 39 Meroitic lexemes 'with a confirmed meaning'. One of the most interesting things this book could have done would have been to demonstrate the confirmations of these meanings. This is not done, nor do Rilly and de Voogt give any reference that would demonstrate the confirmation of the meanings. Or, even, a full list of the 39 lexemes! We have, at the end of the book, a glossary of 76 Meroitic terms 'that have a reasonably certain translation'. One assumes that Rilly would want to omit the 12 that are apparent borrowings from Egyptian and Greek, which leaves 64. I'm not sure what 25 additional terms to omit.
It appears that most of the meanings were established in 1911 in Francis Llewellyn Griffith's monograph Karanòg: The Meroitic Inscriptions of Shablûl and Karanòg. But Griffith's assignation of meanings are reasonable hypotheses: not confirmations. For example, the term 'erike' (possibly 'erik') Griffith takes to mean 'to beget' because it recurs in funereal ablution tablets connected to a name that he takes to be female, connected to a person who appears to be the deceased. Even if Griffith's hypothesis that this person is the deceased's mother is correct (and I haven't paid enough attention to prosopographic work on Meroe to know if this is adequately substantiated to be considered confirmed, or if it's still just a strong hypothesis), the translation of 'erike' as 'to beget' is still quite a leap. Might not the child of a mother have been suckled? Or given a matrilineage? Or any number of things. I don't know of any work since 1911 that gives greater confirmation to Griffith's hypotheses. If it exists, Rilly and de Voogt have not cited it.
Of the supposed 39 Meroitic terms with 'confirmed meaning', Rilly identifies 'conclusive' correspondences for 24. But Rilly's conclusiveness leaves me with doubts. For the words abr, are, ato, dime, erike, l, lh, and yer, the correspondence rests on one phoneme. For most terms, the cognate is with an unattested form. For example, Meroitic 'dime', supposedly meaning 'cow', Is related to Nara 'dùù', meaning 'sheep', and reconstructed Nubian *tegi, Taman *te/*tigine, and proto-NES *teg-i. Somewhat obscured are the fact that the actual words for 'cow' in Nara and Nyima are completely unrelated. xlbi, apparently the word for 'bull', is supposed to be related to Nara bòrò, reconstructed Nubian *gur, and Nyima gósó. Meroitic X is believed by Rilly to be a velar fricative, so this isn't quite as wild as it might appear, but it's not a lot of evidence. There are no general rules for sound changes within North Eastern Sudanic, or between proto-NES and Meroitic to justify the lexical correspondences. Without phonetic correspondences, you have no lexical correspondences. It may be that this is work that Rilly has done in his French publications. Again, this book is intended for an audience for whom the French publications are not accessible. We're left in the dark.
That said, some of the correspondences are appealing. Meroitic 'dm' for 'to take, receive' corresponding to Nara 'nàm' and Nyima 'dúm' (as well as proto-Nubian 'dumm', for whatever proto-Nubian may be worth) looks good. As does 'kdi' 'woman' for Nara 'kàdè' 'sister', proto-Nubian *kar(r)i 'female' and proto-Nyima *kàrí. 'ked' 'to slaughter' for Kara 'kàd', proto-Taman 'kid'. 'pwrite' 'life' for proto-Nubian *beer-idi. However, while it is not shocking that the closest cognates would come from the proto-languages—they're closer together in time—when we don't know how those proto-languages were constructed, there has to be a suspicion of confirmation bias.
After his first 24 'conclusive' lexical correspondences, Rilly gives 7 more supplementary correspondences, some of which are very speculative, albeit plausible and intriguing. But something's amiss, here: 24 + 7 = 31. What happened to the other 39 terms? Rilly and de Voogt do not mention them and, as I point out above, we don't even know what the terms are.
This is not the only time in the book that information, theory, or publication that contradicts Rilly's NES hypothesis is obscured. He says that Carl Richard Lepsius proposed that Meroitic was ancestral to Nubian (p. 3), but Lepsius' Nubische Grammatik in fact says that he believes modern Beja (tu-Bidhaawi) to be the descendant of Meroïtic, not Nubian. I don't know what other text Rilly may be referring to (except, perhaps, Lepsius' Denkmäler of four decades earlier?), but Almkvist, writing a decade later, talks about Lepsius repeatedly assuring us that Beja is modern Meroitic. Similarly, Rilly draws dramatically on Fritz Hintze (especially his 1979 Beiträge zur meroitischen Grammatik, but ignores Hintze's 1974 critique of Bruce Trigger's attempt to show Meroitic to be a Nilo-Saharan language based on too few correspondences, often with a single phonetic correspondence, using a lexical set with too few known semantic values. (Important context: North Eastern Sudanic is a branch of Nilo-Saharan. Hintze later suggested a structural parallel between Meroitic and Old Nubian—an NES language—but his critique about method holds.) Finally, strikingly, Rilly cites Kirsty Rowan's 2006 dissertation 'Meroitic — a phonological investigation' because it confirms some of his phonetic readings of the Merotic script. But he completely ignores Rowan's working paper the same year that evidences serious phonetic problems with the hypothesis that Merotic could be a Nilo-Saharan language, and suggests instead that what we know of Meroitic consonant compatibility suggests that it may, instead, be Afro-Asiatic.
None of these critiques means that Rilly is wrong. The book is stimulating and suggestive. The writing is occasionally stilted, but it's accessible. I enjoyed it, have read most of it twice, and, while I am far from convinced by Rilly's most central claims, I will likely read the book again. But does Rilly and de Voogt's volume achieve their core aims? Just as the book begins with an explanation that it intends to fill a void in anglophone publication on Meroitic, it ends with a call for assistance: [
quote:The history of the Meroitic language and script is far from complete. The task of reconstructing proto-NES and gaining a full understanding of the Meroitic language is enormous and unlikely to be accomplished by a single researcher. The languages that form the key for reconstruction and translation will not necessarily survive the next decades, and some, such as Birgid, are currently on the verge of extinction. At the same time the collection of Meroitic texts, in the Répertoire d'Épigraphie Méroïtique, is still ongoing, and this task is perhaps as arduous as can be the necessary linguistic fieldwork. The past chapters have shown how much but also how little can be gained from all these efforts. In the end, a summary of years of scholarship that was condensed into this single-volume book should give a solid foundation to those who wish to gain a better understanding of the ancient African language of the Kingdom of Kush. (p. 181)
The fact that Rilly is the only researcher currently publishing on Meroitic is not a testament to his hypothesis' having won out: The objections from the '70s through 2006 remain unaddressed. We are unable, in this volume, to see the work that leads to Rilly's current conclusions. What does a solid foundation mean on contested ground? I think that it means a knowledge of the debates, and the grounds for the beliefs of the various positions. In this regard, The Meroitic Language and Writing System fails to deliver.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: I got in my hand the book called The Meroitic Language and Writing System By Rilly and Voogt
In the Conclusion (p.174) you can read:
quote: Both the lexical and morphological correspondences have left no doubt that the Meroitic language shares an origin with Nilo-Saharan Group of North Eastern Sudanic.
It adds on p177:
quote:These lexical elements direct the Urheimat toward the Sahel region rather than the Nile. The geographic distribution of the NES languages follows the same idea. Out of the three branches of North Eastern Sudanic, Taman and Nyima are the last to split off and are found in the Darfur-Kordofan region. If the principle of least movement is followed, this would also be the area of origin for the Nubians. It is likely that here proto-NES first appeared.
It must also be noted that while modern Nubian languages, like Nobiin, are closely related to the Meroitic language, they are not a child language to Meroitic but a sister language. Nubian languages doesn't descend from Meroitic, they both share a common ancestor language.
quote:The movements of the Proto-Nubians, the third group of the Eastern branch, are more difficult to reconstruct. As argued elsewhere (Rilly 2008), it is not plausible that they ever reached the Nile prior to the end of the Meroitic Kingdom in the third century AD. On the other hand, the chronology of phonetics changes in the Nubian languages indicates that the split in the Nubian groups did not occur much prior to this date. The proximity of proto-Nubian and Meroitic , despite two millennia of separation, and Meroitic's conservative character in relation to proto-NES are such that they presuppose a relatively isolated position during a long period. The phonology of proto-Nubian, for instance, was not affected by influences that changed Meroitic or Nyimang phonology. It is likely that the Proto-Nubians were nomads wandering between still hospitable zones until the first millennium BC. Some portion of the middle part of Wadi Howar or the valley of Gebel Tageru may have served that purpose.
It must be said that this also goes in line with the ancient DNA (aDNA) analysis of neolithic remains in Sudan which shows A-M13 being the main haplogroup among early settlers. A-M13 is prevalent in Sudan among modern day Dinka (62%), Shilluk (53%), Borgu (35%).
quote: proto-: When prefixed to the name of language, this term serves to designate the earliest known, at times the earliest artificially reconstructed, form of that language.
.
Rilly’s use of Proto-Northern Eastern Sudani can not be used to read Meroitic because there is no documented evidence this group of languages was ever spoken in the Meroitic Empire.
Rilly claims that lexicostatistics or glottochronology allows him to read Meroitic. Lexicostatistics is used to fit datable events among languages that theoretically are descendant from a common ancestor.
The basic vocabulary is that part of the lexicon that shows slow change. These terms relate to basic cultural practices and universal human experiences.
Rilly can not use this method to read Meroitic because there are only 26 attested Meroitic terms accepted by the establishment. None of these terms are cognate to Nubian or Taman terms except the name for a Meroitic god. With only 1 cognate Meroitic and Northern Eastern Sudani languages, there is no way you can date the time Meroitic speakers and Nilo-Saharan speakers spoke a common ancestral language.
Rilly claims to be able to decipher Meroitic using a method that compares basic culural words to date the time languages separated, can not be used to read Meroitic, because none of the attested Meroitic terms have Nilo-Saharan cognates. The absence of Meroitic and Nubian cognates prevents any fruitful comparisons between these languages. Rilly Paper
There are three ways to verify a protolanguage is congruent with reality 1) there is documentary evidence of the ancestor or near ancestor of the target language that allows comparison of adctual terms and grammars to the construct (i.e., reconstructed lexical items and grammars); 2) written evidence in the form of inscriptions exist from systematic excavation that compare favorably to the contruct; and 3) the power of prediction that this or that construct will conforms to objective reality.
Rilly's ideas that he can read Meroitic based on Kushite names from Kerma, which he calls proto-Meroitic names (even though he knows full well that a protolanguage is artificial and comes from reconstruction); and a list of Northern Proto-Eastern Sudani terms from the Nubian, Nara, Taman and Nyima languages meets none of these standards. This meets none of the standards because there is no documentary evidence for Northern Proto-Eastern Sudani dating to the Meroitic period.
Moreover, the principle language he hopes to use to read Meroitic text: Nubian, was not spoken in the Meroitic Empire. A fact Rilly admits when he notes that Nubians invaded the Meroitic Empire during the declining days of the empire.
Theodora Bynon, Historical Linguistics, wrote that ,"a protolanguage is no more than a theorectical construct designed to link by means of rules the systems of historically related languages in the most economical way. It thus summarizes the present state of our knowledge regarding the systematic relationships of grammars of the related languages....When dealing with past language states it is possible to assess the distance between construct and reality only in cases where we possess documentated evidence regarding an ancestor or a near ancestor, such as is provided by Latin, in the case of the Romance languages"(p.71).
We can reject Rilly's claim he can use this protolanguage to read Meroitic because there is no documented evidence of Northern Eastern Sudani speakers ever living in the historic Meroitic Empire, until after the Meroitic Empire was in decline. The absence of documentary evidence of any Nilo-Saharan language spoken in the Meroitic Empire during the Meroitic period precludes any possibility that Rilly's alleged Proto-Northern Eastern Sudani has any relationship to Meroitic or reality for that matter.
Before my decipherment of Meroitic the attested vocabulary of Meroitic was only 26 terms. Researchers proved decades ago that none of these terms have Nubian and Nilo-Saharan cognates. This makes Rilly's ideas about deciphering Meroitic using Proto-Northern Eastern Sudani a farce.
This is a farce because we do have document evidence of Meroitic, but none for the Nilo-Saharan languages. As a result, any proto-term hfrom Northern Eastern Sudani Rilly compares with Meroitic will be conjecture since there is no documented evidence of Nilo-Saharan languages being spoken in the Meroitic Empire.
H.H. Hock, in Principles of Historical Linguistics (1986), observed that there are two major arguments against the idea that comparative reconstructions recover the "prehistoric reality" of a language.
The first principle, is that languages change over time. This makes it almost impossible to "fully" reconstruct the lexical items and grammar of the ancestral language. Secondly, there are few, if any dialect free languages. Constructs resulting from comparing lexical items and grammars from an available set of languages,produce a dialect free protolanguage, that is unnatural and "factually incorrect as shown by the insights of the wave theory" (p.568).
Granted, by comparing languages and associating them with a particular time period you can make comparative reconstructions that may eliminate dialectal diversity. But Rilly can not do this because none of the attested Meroitic terms have Nubian cognates. This along with the fact that we have no textual evidence of Nilo-Saharan during the Meroitic period demonstrating that Nilo-Saharan languages were spoken in the Meroitic Empire, especially Nubian,precludes using proto-Northern Eastern Sudani terms to read Meroitic. Using proto-Northern Eastern Sudani terms to read Meroitic will fail to provide a linguistically realistic situation in Nubia 2000 years ago. This is especially true for Nubian, which was not spoken in the Meroitic Empire. The Nubian speakers lived far to the north of the Meroitic Empire, a fact Rilly acknowledges.
The Kushana used the Kharosthi/Karosti script. Inscriptions written in Kharosti date back to 251 BC.
The first Meroitic inscription dates back to the reign of Shanakdakheto (c.177-155 BC). The date of the first Meroitic inscriptions is 100 years after people the Kushana were writing their works in Kharosti.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Clyde did you read the book being discussed? The Meroitic Language and Writing System By Rilly and Voogt
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Rilly's Proto-Nilo Saharah does not agree with the established Meroitic terms
“Established” Meroitic terms and their alternative Meanings
There are 26 Merotitic signs which researchers agreed had established Meanings before my decipherment of Meroitic. My identification of Tokharian/Kushana as the language of the Meroitic inscriptions has led me to accept some, but not all of the “established meanings for the Meroitic terms listed below:
“established meanings” alternative meanings at, ‘bread .......................‘down the road’ wi, ‘brother.......................‘ ‘honor’ sem, wife.............‘sm, ‘protection,refuge’ kdi, woman.......................‘ woman st,foot/feet.......................‘------ edhe,tedhe, born by.......................‘------ el,l,yel, give.......................‘ e ‘give’ mk, deity.......................‘‘diety’ lh, great.......................‘‘great’ mlo, good.......................‘ ml, ‘under influence, soul, ml-o, spiritual mte, small,little.......................‘‘to unlock, to open’ qore, ruler.......................‘qor, ‘royal’; female royal:‘qor-I’;male royal:‘qor-e’ kdike, queen’s sister.......................‘------ ‘tñyi, lion.......................‘------- abr, ‘man’.......................‘ab/ ap, ancestor, father ste, ‘mother’.......................‘‘mother’ s, person.......................‘s, man, king še, son šr, sister
abd, province land.......................‘ab ‘father, ancestor kdis, sister.......................‘kdi ‘woman’ ato, water.......................‘------- erike, terike, yerike ‘begotten of’.......................‘terike, ‘fashion and revitalize’ rike, ‘indeed to sojour’.......................‘yerike, ‘on a journey to;invigorate’, ‘revitalize ; to give form to’
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Clyde did you read the book being discussed? The Meroitic Language and Writing System By Rilly and Voogt
I read some of the book web page but it was just a continuation of his original paper.
Literacy in the Napatan and Meroitic Civilizations
Ancient Kush extended across a large part of the Sudan. In this vast region encompassing the Napatan and Meroitic civilizations there were many different nationalities, that spoke a myriad of languages.
Due to the ethnic diversity of the Napatans, it is clear that at least from the Napatan period of Kush the rulers of the empire had decided that no single language spoken in the empire would be used to record political, administrative and religious information. To maintain an equilibrium within and among the Napatan nationalities Egyptian was used as the lingua franca of the empire. The leaders of the Napatan empire probably used Egyptian because it was an international language, and few Kushites were of Egyptian ethnic origin.
Egyptian remained the lingua franca for the Kushites during the Napatan and early Meroitic periods in Kushite history. After the Assyrians defeated the Egyptians the ethnic composition of the Kushite empire began to change. As a result, many Egyptians began to migrate into Kushite, to avoid non-Egyptian rule.
Beginning with the Assyrian defeat of the Twenty-Fifth Dynasty large number of nomadic people from the Middle East began to migrate into Egypt. These people began to take over many Egyptian settlements, while other Egyptians fled to Nubia and Kush to avoid non-Egyptian rule.
Other political and military conflicts after the Assyrians led many Egyptians to migrate out of Egypt into Nubia and Kush. Herodotus’ mentions the mutiny of Psamtik I’s frontier garrison at Elephantine—these deserters moved into Kush. Moreover, the archaizing trend in Kush among the post Twenty-Fifth Dynasty Kings testify to a possible large migration of Egyptians into Kush.
In 343 BC Nectanebos II, fled to Upper Egypt. Later according to the Natasen period stela we evidence of other Egyptians migrating into Kush from Egypt (Torok, 1997, p.391).
Between the 260’s-270’s BC Upper Egyptian Nationalists were fighting the Ptolemy (Greek) rulers of Egypt. The rebellion was put down by Ptolemy II. This military action led to Egyptians migrating out of Egypt into Kush (Torok, pp.395-396). These rebellions continued in Egypt into the 2nd Century BC (Torok, p.426).
Between Ptolomy II and Ptolemy V, the Greeks began to settle Egypt. This was especially true in the 150’sBC and led to many Egyptians migrating back into Egypt.
By the time the Romans entered Egypt, many Egyptians had already left Egypt and settled. Roman politics also forced many Egyptians to migrate into Kush. This was compounded by the introduction of the Pax Agusta policy of the Romans which sought the establishment of Roman hegemony within territories under Roman rule (Torok, 454-456). This led to the emigration of many Romans into Egypt.
The Kush was a multi-ethnic society. It included speakers of many languages within the empire. During most of Kushite history the elites used Egyptian for record keeping since it was recognized as a neutral language.
As more and more Egyptians, led by Egyptian nationalists, fled to Kush as it became under foreign domination the Egyptians formed a large minority in the Empire. Because of Egyptian migrations to Kush, by the rule of the Meroitic Queen Shanakdakheto, we find the Egyptian language abandoned as a medium of exchange in official records, and the Meroitic script takes its place.
By the rise of Greeks in Egypt, the cultural ideology , like the people were changing. This is supported by the transition from Demotic writing (7th 5th Centuries BC) to Coptic (4th BC-AD 1400). The Coptic people are the best evidence for the change in the Egyptian population.
After the Egyptians became a sizable minority in Kush, the Kushites abandoned Egyptian as a lingua franca. Egyptian was replaced by the Meroitic writing.
Due to the fact that Meroite leaders were trying maintain unity within the Meroitic Confederacy/Empire they did not record any ethnic lexical items in the Meroitic inscriptions , that I have read so far, except ethnonyms and toponyms.
First of all, lexicostatistics do not show a genetic relationship. Lexicostatistics or glottochronology, according to Theodora Bynon, Historical Linguistics, "The process used to calculate the point in time at which two related or supposedly related languages separated" (pp.267-268).
Use of a proto-language to read Meroitic is pure conjecture and absent of any reality, because these terms are all made up.
In the graffito from Musawwarat Rilly correctly deciphers the inscription as follows: W l e qo ph n y qo-t tl Netror s(e)l-o . He translates this inscription as follows : “This dog was bought (???) three talents, it is Netarura’s” In this translation he claims that wl means ‘dog’ and I guess qo, means ‘this’.
Although this is his interpretation of the inscription he is wrong and failed to decipher the signs properly. For example, he interprets the three lines: ||| as the numeral three, this was wrong in Meroitic ||| is the ‘y’. In addition after correctly deciphering the Meroitic w and l signs, he failed to record the ‘e’, that follows the wl. Thus this should have read w-l-e, not wl.
If Rilly can be this careless in his interpretation of the Meroitic signs says much about his method of decipherment.
Now when we use my decipherment to read the text and the accompanying drawing we have the following : [Dog] exist indeed to grant a noble boon [of rabbits with] the intention to bring elevation to you, meritorious Netror”. The vocabulary items are as follows:
W, to be, exist, to drive, to conduct
L, indeed, or termination element
E, grant a boon, vouchsafe, favor
Qo, to live, to renew, to restore; noble, royal, honorable; to make , to form
A hypothesis must be supported by an experiment, and it should always be tested. If the evidence fails to support a hypothesis it is disconfirmed. To test a hypothesis, means you have to provide evidence of an alternative hypothesis, common sense does nothing to falsify a hypothesis.
Rilly's hypothesis that Meroitic can be read by reconstructing the proto-language is a good way to show how the scientific method works.
Rilly claims that Meroitic is Nilo-Saharan. He claims that this is supported by comparing the Proto-Nilo-Saharan to Meroitic, because the people living in Kush today are remnants of the Meroites.
We can disconfirm this theory because it is not supported by the historical and linguistic evidence we have concerning the linguistic and political history of Kush. We must reject Rilly's theory because ,we have no evidence that 1) Proto-Nilo-Saharan, as constructed by Rilly was ever spoken by a living being; 2) we have evidence that the Noba/Nubians entered Nubia long after the Kushites had founded Napatan and Meroitic civilizations, so eventhough they live in Nubia today, they are not representative of Kushite people who they were often in conflict with; 3) Egyptian documents make it clear that the Blymmes also entered the area after the founding of Napatan and Meroitic civilization, so even if some people claim that the Beja=Blymmes this is conjecture.
Consequently, even if Beja= Blymmes, they donot represent the Kushite people who founded the Napata and Meroe civilizations, because both the Noba and Blymmes entered Kush after its founding. This makes it clear that although Rilly's evidence looked promising, the data presented in support of the hypothesis fails to support his claim.
Rilly claims that Meroitic is Nilo-Saharan. He claims that this is supported by comparing the Proto-Nilo-Saharan to Meroitic, because the people living in Kush today are remnants of the Meroites.
This theory is not supported by the historical and linguistic evidence we have concerning the linguistic and political history of Kush. We must reject Rilly's theory because ,we have no evidence that 1) Proto-Nilo-Saharan, as constructed by Rilly was ever spoken by a living being; 2) we have evidence that the Noba/Nubians entered Nubia long after the Kushites had founded Napatan and Meroitic civilizations, so eventhough they live in Nubia today, they are not representative of Kushite people who they were often in conflict with; 3) Egyptian documents make it clear that the Blymmes also entered the area after the founding of Napatan and Meroitic civilization, so even if some people claim that the Beja=Blymmes this is conjecture. Consequently, even if Beja= Blymmes, they donot represent the Kushite people who founded the Napata and Meroe civilizations, because both the Noba and Blymmes entered Kush after its founding. This makes it clear that although Rilly's evidence looked promising, the data presented in support of the hypothesis fails to support his claim.
King Tañyidamani, and the Meroitic lion-god Apedemek (110 BC-90 BC)
The most interesting Meroitic text concerning Apedemak is found on the votive tablet of Tañyidamani which is now found in the Paris Museum. On this votive tablet Tañyidamani is depicted on the obverse side , and the god Apedemak on the reverse side.
On the reverse side of the Tañyidamani votive tablet the god Apedemak is depicted wearing a short apron and hemhem crown. On this votive tablet Apedemak also wears armlets, bracelets, a collar and pectoral. Inside a panel in front of Apedemak we find a cursive Meroitic inscription.
The inscriptions in the panel on the reverse side of the votive tablet of King Tañyidamani make it clear that the king acknowledged the important role the god Apedemak played in his life. These inscriptions can be read either from right to left or top to bottom. Reading from right to left we read:
TRANSLITERATION OF REVERSE SIDE OF VOTIVE TABLET OF KING TAÑYIDAMANI
1. w e to
2. q tel
3. w to si
4.tone m-k
5. d.[l]..r-i
6.te i
TRANSLATION
1. You (it is Apedemak who) gives guidance.
2. Revitalize support (for me King Tañyidamani).
3. You guide (me) to satisfaction.
4. (And ) much reverence (for your patron).
5. Give (it) amicably (to me).
6. May (it go forth).
Reading this same inscription top to bottom we find the following:
TRANSLITERATION OF THE REVERSE SIDE OF THE VOTIVE TABLET OF KING TAÑYIDAMANI
1. w q b-to d-te.
2. e te to m ne l.
3. toe i skr-i.
TRANSLATION
1. (Oh Apedemak) Guide and Make Honor (for your patron).
2. Give here your (full) measure of Good indeed.
3. (It is) thou (Apedemak who) give(s) leave to eminence (for your patron).
...... This is the point I am trying to make: the Nubians were not Kushites.If they were not Kushites, how could they have played a role in Meroitic literacy?
If the Nubians were not Kushites how can Rilly use proto-terms constructed via Nubian languages to read Meroitic, a writing systems the Noba / Nubians never employed to write any of their inscriptions throughout their literate history? ...
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Meroitic Writing and Literature
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Bob Offer-Westort The fact that Rilly is the only researcher currently publishing on Meroitic is not a testament to his hypothesis' having won out: The objections from the '70s through 2006 remain unaddressed. We are unable, in this volume, to see the work that leads to Rilly's current conclusions. What does a solid foundation mean on contested ground? I think that it means a knowledge of the debates, and the grounds for the beliefs of the various positions. In this regard, The Meroitic Language and Writing System fails to deliver.
The view that Rilly is the only scholar researching Meroitic is Eurocentric. I have published numerous articles and books on Meroitic even before my recent book.
You can read more about my decipherment of Meroitic in the following articles:
Winters,Clyde Ahmad. (Juin 1984b). "A Note on Tokharian and Meroitic", Meroitic Newsletter\Bulletin d"Information Meroitiques , No.23 , pages 18-21.
Winters,Clyde Ahmad. (1989b). "Cheikh Anta Diop et le dechiffrement de l'ecriture meroitique",Cabet: Revue Martinique de Sciences Humaines et de Litterature 8, pp. 149-152.
Winters, Clyde Ahmad.(1998). Meroitic funerary Text. Part1, Inscription Journal of Ancient Egypt 1,(1), pp. 29-34.
Winters, Clyde Ahmad.(1998). Meroitic funerary Text. Part1, Inscription Journal of Ancient Egypt 1,(2), pp. 41-55.
Winters, Clyde Ahmad. (1999). The inscriptions of Tanyidamani. Nubica IV und Nubica V., pp.355-388.
___________ (1998c). The inscriptions of Tanyidamani. Nubica et Ethiopica IV \ V, 355-388.
'
. The Meroitic Language, provides a detailed account of the language of the Kushites who founded the Meroitic Empire. In Meroitic Language, Dr. Winters explains his decipherment of the Meroitic language and provides an outline of the grammar of the Meroitic language.
Meroitic language provides readers with the necessary tools to read the Meroitic inscriptions.It also gives the reader key insight into the culture and religion of the Kushites.
Meroitic Language can be purchased at Scribd. Purchase the full version and... • Read the full version in your browser • Send to mobile device • Download as pdf (PDF) • Download as txt (Text file)
and what do you think are all the languages related to Meriotic?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
People who have looked into this for a while know that it's probably best to take any 'results' that come from this field with a chunk of salt, as several proposals are already on the table without any meaningful adoptions by the scientific community. Also, contrary to what the OP seems to be making up on the spot, if Hassan's aDNA results are taken literal, they would suggest affinity of Meroitic speakers with Afro-Asiatic speakers, not at all with stereotypical Nilo-Saharan speakers. However, taking these aDNA results literal is for the naive. Its easy to take something and just run with it, without cross-referencing other facts on the ground. The haplogroup landscape in n.Africa and e.Africa is such that Nilo-Saharan speakers may have haplogroup profiles that resemble Afroasiatic speakers and vice versa. Beta Israel look somewhat Nilo-Saharan on their paternal side, as do many Chadic speakers, while the Masai, Datog and Nubian speakers look like Afro-Asiatic speakers on their paternal side. Some Omotic speakers look Nilo-Saharan on their maternal side compared to other Cushitic speakers. Imagine the mistakes that would take place if one were to classify these populations linguistically based on their uniparental lineages.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Dr. Winters
Never Been to Africa so Can't really teach about the people or customs. Want to, All I have is what I read on the net and books use to think that sources posted by Euros and so called academia were more valid then other sources but starting to realize that you have to question EVERYTHING. Peer Review, To Me is just an agreed upon lie. ALL research should be investigated because there is an nugget of truth in all.
moving on
Buddhism I think not sure, loves and respects all life. So if the Merowe's were taught this religion then probably they would of been Pacifists?
I think that Ethiopia at the Time was not about the Nubians, But the Southern Sudanese. Why I say this Is because from what I have read From sources South Sudanese are Tall and Smooth skinned etc and Nubians, Maybe Wrong, are short or Medium Height whatever that is. Its also stated that The Ethiopians were the bravest of the Ancient world.
Now Bravery does not mean you attack and hurt your brothers, but that you support each other through good times and Bad. When your brother slips up, you pick him up. South Sudanese(Dinka, Nuer, Shilluk, Bari, Arab Sudanese etc)are brothers(not talking about the Human race now but African ethnicities). brothers Fight. The Good thing is that no one will be there for you like your brother. friends come and go, but the bond you share with your brother brings forth love, respect, life and support.
Instead of dismissing Dr. Winters work because the so called "peer review" "science" does not support him, people should look to see Where and HOW he is wrong and critique him.
I made that mistake like this in disrespecting Islam's prophet and only reading what I wanted to read about him. Now, I don't believe the negative things stated about Muhammad are true but is posted to create division and strife. So its an learning experience. We learn something new everyday so for all those hating on Dr. Winters, man up, show him Where he is wrong and don't shove an "oh, well this peer review said this, so its more plausible then winters research. blah"
Remember people, We're all look for Truth sometimes the dirtiest rock can hide an gem and the shiniest stone can hide coal.
Lastly, Your Brother is not always someone who has the same color as you, but is the person who will stand by you when everyone else turns there back.
Peace
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
There are many people who do things that we just expect to happen.
Look at the newspaper man or woman, they deliver the paper to people in snow, heat etc and when they don't bring the paper, we whine about not getting our paper for that day and call the office. The office says "Sorry" and credits you for the lost paper. What you don't realize is that when you get that credit, it comes out of the pay of the paper delivery person. He\She loses money so your sad and they are sad. It does not have to be like that. THINK people, be considerate. Maybe the paper person has the flu. Happiness is not just your happiness but others also. Stomach the loss of the paper and don't compound the problem by hurting the other person.
Next you wonder who cleans all the waste you make when you use the bathroom? PEOPLE. Jobs you look down on are done by people trying to make an living. When was the last time you went to an waste management building and just said over the speakers "Excuse me sirs and madams, I would like to thank you for the hardwork you do in keeping our city and homes clean. THANK YOU"
Thankless Jobs are all around us people. Just showing Love to others makes you happy, and them happy. If they are grouches don't get angry but understand where they are coming from. When we understand eachother that's when we grow.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Clyde why haven't you sought one of the academic publishers?
Also which of the following languages do you think are related?
and what do you think are all the languages related to Meriotic?
I am not part of the club, so it would be a waste of time trying to publish within the field. To become a member of the club you have to attend conference and be a member of specific academic staffs-which I don't belong.
Meroitic is related to Egypytian which I recognize as a lingua franca, as I pointed out above.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING: Dr. Winters
Never Been to Africa so Can't really teach about the people or customs. Want to, All I have is what I read on the net and books use to think that sources posted by Euros and so called academia were more valid then other sources but starting to realize that you have to question EVERYTHING. Peer Review, To Me is just an agreed upon lie. ALL research should be investigated because there is an nugget of truth in all.
moving on
Buddhism I think not sure, loves and respects all life. So if the Merowe's were taught this religion then probably they would of been Pacifists?
I think that Ethiopia at the Time was not about the Nubians, But the Southern Sudanese. Why I say this Is because from what I have read From sources South Sudanese are Tall and Smooth skinned etc and Nubians, Maybe Wrong, are short or Medium Height whatever that is. Its also stated that The Ethiopians were the bravest of the Ancient world.
Now Bravery does not mean you attack and hurt your brothers, but that you support each other through good times and Bad. When your brother slips up, you pick him up. South Sudanese(Dinka, Nuer, Shilluk, Bari, Arab Sudanese etc)are brothers(not talking about the Human race now but African ethnicities). brothers Fight. The Good thing is that no one will be there for you like your brother. friends come and go, but the bond you share with your brother brings forth love, respect, life and support.
Instead of dismissing Dr. Winters work because the so called "peer review" "science" does not support him, people should look to see Where and HOW he is wrong and critique him.
I made that mistake like this in disrespecting Islam's prophet and only reading what I wanted to read about him. Now, I don't believe the negative things stated about Muhammad are true but is posted to create division and strife. So its an learning experience. We learn something new everyday so for all those hating on Dr. Winters, man up, show him Where he is wrong and don't shove an "oh, well this peer review said this, so its more plausible then winters research. blah"
Remember people, We're all look for Truth sometimes the dirtiest rock can hide an gem and the shiniest stone can hide coal.
Lastly, Your Brother is not always someone who has the same color as you, but is the person who will stand by you when everyone else turns there back.
Peace
King:
Thanks for your support. My Meroitic research has not been ignored because it was not published in peer reviewed journals because it has, e.g.:
Cabet: Revue Martinique de Sciences Humaines et de Litterature
Nubica
My decipherment is ignored because of jealousy. Europeans ignore my research because they believe only “whites” have the intelligence to accomplish the numerous decipherments I have made.
Most Black africalogists feel inferior to whites and only write on topics supported by whites who have written a book. Obenga and the old school Afrocalogist ignore my work because they are jealous and decided that due to feelings of inferiority they will not support me until my work is accepted or attacked by europeans. Obenga and the Kametic “tricksters” of the Center for InterCity Studies in Chicago have been against my work since the 1970’s, because while Carruthers and others pretended to know africana and Egyptian history I was publishing articles back in the day while I only possessed a Master’s degree.
Eventhough Carruthers is long dead his followers continue to privately attack my work, while they publish nothing and pimp off the samelectures they have presented for the past 20 years; while my research is always fresh . LOL, while they claim to be “Dr.” so-and so, they have neither a ED, or PhD while I have a PhD, the highest degree you can get which recognies you have made a contribution to science. To write a dissertation you have to do it by yourself. Many Blacks are ABD (all but the Dissertation), but since they can’t write or are waiting for some European to guide them, they remain ABD.
I have never made race an issue in my research. While afro-Americans were waiting for Europeans to recognize my research A. von Wuthenau popularized my decipherment of Olmec back in 1977. Sadly, I have more European supporters of my research than old school Blacks.
I have been writing afrocentric ancient history themes since the 1970’s so I don’t fear teaching and spreading knowledge. That is why I have been publishing peer reviewed articles even when I was not a faculty member of any institution of higher learning. .
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Was the Merowe's pacifists?
college and university is good for some and not for others, there are plenty of people who never been to those institutions who could teach higher learning people about life and understanding what makes the common man and what unites us under the banner of the human race. No one should be forced to do anything against there own will
Learning comes from action and doing what is right regardless of disrespect. You think your research is valid, others don't. even though others try to tear you down you keep pushing forward. That's because you think you found truth. Truth ain't always a click away or what you were taught in some higher learning institution, truth also ain't always found outside these places either. I guess that's why people hate what they don't understand and fear what they don't know.
Sometimes the loudest drunk talks the most truth and the smartest man is a clown.
look at Muhammad, Muslims claim he was an prophet yet also claim he was unlearned in the ways of books. Jesus was claimed to be an gluttonous man who ate with sinners and publicans yet the image of Jesus is always with thin build and so called "handsome" features. Mike is ranting in his thread about an eunuch being "ugly". Image sadly is still something very confusing and messed up. maybe there are big people healthier then thin. thin people who "eat" right exercise yet get heart attacks. dirty people that are clean and clean people that are dirty. really man the world is an jumble. What people gotta understand is that you can't stay image driven. talk to an homeless person learn. talk to people in houses learn. Speak to dancers learn. Speak to the haters of dancing learn. and it goes on and on. just remember when learning, HAVE FUN. Don't let learning bog you down,
why people do the things they do is confusing but understood properly you could see life in an better light.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Obenga and the old school Afrocalogist ignore my work because they are jealous and decided that due to feelings of inferiority they will not support me until my work is accepted or attacked by europeans. Obenga and the Kametic “tricksters” of the Center for InterCity Studies in Chicago have been against my work since the 1970’s,
have you met Obenga? he's in his late 70's now
And how do you define a Kametic trickster?
Also do you think there there are any important ideas in the Merotic writings or is it just mainly religious text only of interest to historians or academics?
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Obenga and the old school Afrocalogist ignore my work because they are jealous and decided that due to feelings of inferiority they will not support me until my work is accepted or attacked by europeans. Obenga and the Kametic “tricksters” of the Center for InterCity Studies in Chicago have been against my work since the 1970’s,
have you met Obenga? he's in his late 70's now
And how do you define a Kametic trickster?
Also do you think there there are any important ideas in the Merotic writings or is it just mainly religious text only of interest to historians or academics?
I have never met Obenga, but one of his Associates from San Francisco informed me of their position.
The kametic trickters, were a group of people who pretended they were worshiping the egyptian religion as a way to get sex from women, and not really worship of religion.
In my book: The Kushite Prince Akinidad: And the Roman-Kushite War
I review the life and history of Prince Akinidad. I use Meroitic textual material to explain the position of Akinidad in Meroitic politics and interaction between the Meroitic State and the Roman rulers of Egypt. The textual material makes it clear that Akinidad never became King because he was killed by the Romans in battle.
The kametic trickters, were a group of people led by Jacob Carruthers who pretended they were worshiping the egyptian religion as a way to get sex from women, not really worship of religion.
I suppose Ashra Kwesii fits into that also
I think he's married and takes people on Egypt tours
I read somebody on destee call these groups " Hpy River Valley " schools (I don't know that term) Sometimes they call themselves of the craft or masons, but the origial Egyptian version. there's the Ausar Auset Society going back to 1973 And the Sema institute , they are into that "Egyptian yoga" + sex stuff
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Dr. Winters were the Merowe's pacifists?
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING: Dr. Winters were the Merowe's pacifists?
No. they had to contend with nomads and the Romans who wanted to dominate them.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: .
The kametic trickters, were a group of people led by Jacob Carruthers who pretended they were worshiping the egyptian religion as a way to get sex from women, not really worship of religion.
I suppose Ashra Kwesii fits into that also
I think he's married and takes people on Egypt tours
I read somebody on destee call these groups " Hpy River Valley " schools (I don't know that term) Sometimes they call themselves of the craft or masons, but the origial Egyptian version. there's the Ausar Auset Society going back to 1973 And the Sema institute , they are into that "Egyptian yoga" + sex stuff
I don't know Ashra Kwesii so I can not class him with this group. The members of the Ausar Auset society are sincere.
.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: I don't know Ashra Kwesii so I can not class him with this group.
He's a Dr. Ben student Take a look at his website:
If the Merowe were not pacifists, then how was the Buddhism religion spread?
No expert on this field but really I thought that Buddhism teaches the value of life for all including animals.
I think that buddihst believe in reincarnation and that being good in life will allow you to return to earth as an higher lifeform. being bad, and you come back as an cockroach.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING: Dr. Winters
If the Merowe were not pacifists, then how was the Buddhism religion spread?
No expert on this field but really I thought that Buddhism teaches the value of life for all including animals.
I think that buddihst believe in reincarnation and that being good in life will allow you to return to earth as an higher lifeform. being bad, and you come back as an cockroach.
But Buddhism, like the other great faiths, has not always lived up to its principles - there are numerous examples of Buddhists engaging in violence and even war.
in the 14th century Buddhist fighters led the uprising that evicted the Mongols from China in Japan, Buddhist monks trained Samurai warriors in meditation that made them better fighters In the twentieth century Japanese Zen masters wrote in support of Japan's wars of aggression. For example, Sawaki Kodo (1880–1965) wrote this in 1942:
It is just to punish those who disturb the public order. Whether one kills or does not kill, the precept forbidding killing [is preserved]. It is the precept forbidding killing that wields the sword. It is the precept that throws the bomb. Sawaki Kodo
In Sri Lanka the 20th century civil war between the mostly Buddhist Sinhalese majority and the Hindu Tamil minority has cost 50,000 lives.
The times of Gautama's birth and death are uncertain: most historians in the early 20th century dated his lifetime as circa 563 BCE to 483 BCE, There is no credible scholarship saying with certainty that Gymnosophists were Buddhist rather than Hindu. Gymnosophists reported to have
The gymnosophists that the Greeks encountered in 3rd Century B.C. at Taxila, Pakistan, an ancient center of Vedic & Buddhist learning,
Gymnosophists is the name given by the Greeks to certain ancient Indian philosophers who pursued asceticism to the point of regarding food and clothing as detrimental to purity of thought (sadhus or yogis).They were probably an old sect of Hindu Naga sadhus. ____________________________________________________
Meroë was the southern capital of the Napata/Meroitic Kingdom, that spanned the period c. 800 BC — c. 350 AD.
Although the people of Meroë also had southern deities such as Apedemak, the lion-son of Sekhmet (or Bast, depending upon the region), they also continued worshipping Egyptian deities they had brought with them, such as Amun, Tefnut, Horus, Isis, Thoth and Satis, though to a lesser extent. The beliefs of the people of Meroë in Africa clearly have their beginnings in the Egyptian religion, with shared gods and architectural designs present at the site.
The similarities between the two religions included shared gods, such as Isis, Amun – who was revered on a level equal standing to that of the indigenous gods and kings – and Horus, as well as Bas, the household god. The presence of Bas suggests that these beliefs were spread throughout the Meroitic society, with the whole community following the ‘official’ state religion.
The foremost of the indigenous gods worshipped by the Meroites was Apedemak, the lion god, who appears on many engravings across the city. There were many temples across the city dedicated to the Egyptian and the Meroitic gods.
The Start of the Meroitic Religion The beginnings of the Meroitic religion can be traced back to the eighth century BC when the Naptalan Nubian kings entered Egypt as pharaohs took inspiration from the pyramids and temples there, and decided to bring that religious belief back to their own land to support their status as kings.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M Clyde, the problem here is that your "evidence" is only conjecture.
You have yet to prove:
1) Bhuddist communities in Meroitic Kush.
2) Long History of Buddhism in Upper Egypt and the Meroitic empire.
On top of that, there is no doubt that ancient Sudan and East Africa had strong ties to India, physically and culturally. However, your arguments are based too much on conjecture and not actual evidence. I would like to see more actual evidence for the Bhuddist presence in the Nile Valley in terms of actual inscriptions, writings, artwork, textiles and everything else.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING: Dr. Winters
If the Merowe were not pacifists, then how was the Buddhism religion spread?
No expert on this field but really I thought that Buddhism teaches the value of life for all including animals.
I think that buddihst believe in reincarnation and that being good in life will allow you to return to earth as an higher lifeform. being bad, and you come back as an cockroach.
Buddhism is a philosophy not a religion. Just because you believe in Buddhism did not stop one from fighting wars if they had too. The concept of "Goodness" is a key aspect of Maat and non-Indo- Aryan philosophy. this is the idea that you attain a great life and afterlife by being "Good".In this way to attain an intimate relationship with the Creator.
Buddhism, like other forms of spiritualism, seeks to bring peace to the individual within and without. religion on the otherhand is a codified system of beliefs and practices and method of worship used to unify a group of people.In a religion, the individual is "saved" through their external expression of these beliefs and practices and acceptance of the religious leader as the principal intermediary between man and God.
My hero is Jesus, He did not believe in religion. He believed in God. He taught us that we could pray directly to God without having to go through the cohen or rabbi. That's why he avoided Temple worship. Jesus taught us that to attain union with God,we had to acquire Goodness, by being Good.
As a result, you can not have a religion based on the teachings of Jesus, because he sought to help man attain salvation through communion with and direct prayer to God.This is why Christianity is based on the teachings of paul, since they allow for a class of religious leaders, who can lead you to God, and certify, through your execution of religious practices and membership in a church, you worship of god.
Hinduism teaches the idea that you can return to this world in different forms based on your prior existence. This was just a method to keep poor people in their place by giving them the hope that if they remained poor and hungrey in this life they would have a better life in the future. .
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Clyde you say that the the Indo European language Tocharian of the 6th to 8th century AD is related to Merotic language ( 800 BC- c. 350 AD.) It seems very odd that a region in North East China would be related to Sudan. How did you come up with that? What made you even think that there might be a connection between these two places?
The Tocharians or Tokharians were inhabitants of medieval oasis city-states on the northern edge of the Tarim Basin (modern Xinjiang, China).
Cherchen Man, Dated to about 1,000 B. C.Tian Chen mummy, Tarim Basin
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
My hero is Jesus, He did not believe in religion. He believed in God. He taught us that we could pray directly to God without having to go through the cohen or rabbi. That's why he avoided Temple worship. Jesus taught us that to attain union with God,we had to acquire Goodness, by being Good.
would it be accurate to say that Jesus represented a Middle Eastern philosphy of strict "one God only" monotheism rather than African?
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Hinduism teaches the idea that you can return to this world in different forms based on your prior existence. This was just a method to keep poor people in their place by giving them the hope that if they remained poor and hungrey in this life they would have a better life in the future.
The Gymnosophists were theought to be Hindu
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Meroë was the southern capital of the Napata/Meroitic Kingdom, that spanned the period c. 800 BC — c. 350 AD.
Although the people of Meroë also had southern deities such as Apedemak, the lion-son of Sekhmet (or Bast, depending upon the region), they also continued worshipping Egyptian deities they had brought with them, such as Amun, Tefnut, Horus, Isis, Thoth and Satis, though to a lesser extent. The beliefs of the people of Meroë in Africa clearly have their beginnings in the Egyptian religion, with shared gods and architectural designs present at the site.
The similarities between the two religions included shared gods, such as Isis, Amun – who was revered on a level equal standing to that of the indigenous gods and kings – and Horus, as well as Bas, the household god. The presence of Bas suggests that these beliefs were spread throughout the Meroitic society, with the whole community following the ‘official’ state religion.
There was more to Meroite religion than just worship of "community gods". Worship of these local community gods was used to unify people within their local community. The people in these communities worshipped their local deity, while recognizing that a Creator God, was the GOD, who the individual worshipped through his/her expression of Goodnesss toward others.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: would it be accurate to say that Jesus represented a Middle Eastern philosphy of strict "one God only" monotheism rather than African?
No. Jesus was against temple religion.
All african religions are based on monotheism. all africans are taught that there is One god, like Catholicism Africans believe there are intermediaries who are closer to GOD, who can get their prayers to GOD rapidly. In many ways it is similar to the Christian method of group church prayers, which are ended with the phrase "grant my prayer/request in Jesus's name".
Christians call on Jesus to deliver their prayer because he is the son of God. No Christian would accept they are not monotheistic just because they ask Jesus to deliver their prayer Asking Jesus to deliver one's prayer does not deny they believe in 'One God'.This is the same as Africans worshipping numerous gods and spirits,or Catholics calling on Saints for help.
.
.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: There was more to Meroite religion than just worship of "community gods". Worship of these local community gods was used to unify people within their local community. The people in these communities worshipped their local deity, while recognizing that a Creator God, was the GOD, who the individual worshipped through his/her expression of Goodnesss toward others.
. [/QB]
Gautama Buddha rejected the existence of a creator deity, refused to endorse many views on creation and stated that questions on the origin of the world are not ultimately useful for ending suffering.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Clyde you say that the the Indo European language Tocharian of the 6th to 8th century AD is related to Merotic language ( 800 BC- c. 350 AD.) It seems very odd that a region in North East China would be related to Sudan. How did you come up with that? What made you even think that there might be a connection between these two places?
The Tocharians or Tokharians were inhabitants of medieval oasis city-states on the northern edge of the Tarim Basin (modern Xinjiang, China).
Cherchen Man, Dated to about 1,000 B. C.Tian Chen mummy, Tarim Basin
The man above was not a Kushana,or Tocharian speaker. Tocharian was a trade language. It is not Indo-European. i discuss this fact in my book Ancient History of Tamils in Central Asia.
I arrived at this coclusion based on 1) mention of the Blymmys in Buddhist text,2)recognition that Asoka sent Buddhist missionaries to Egypt, and 3) Petrie's discovery of Buddhist at Memphis,Egypt; 4)Philostratus' : The Life of Apollonius of Tyana mention Buddhists in Egypt/Meroe.
Anta Diop in The African Origin of Civilization discussed Buddhism. Diop wrote:
quote:
“It would seem that Buddha was an Egyptian priest, chased from Memphis by the persecution of Cambyses. This tradition would justify the portrayal of Buddha with woolly hair. Historical documents do not invalidate this tradition…There is general agreement today on placing in the sixth century not only Buddha but the whole religious and philosophical movement in Asia with Confucius in China, Zoroaster in Iran. This would confirm the hypothesis of a dispersion of Egyptian priests at that time spreading their doctrine in Asia. (p.287)”
Diop's mention of Memphis is quite interested because it is here that Petrie (1908) found evidence of Buddhist colonist, which he claimed dated back to the Persian period of Egypt (c 525-405BC). Petrie wrote:
quote: "on the right side, at the top is the Tibetan Mongolian, below that the Aryan woman of the Punjab, and at the base a seated figure in Indian attitude with the scarf over the left shoulder. These are the first remains of Indians known on the Mediterranean. Hitherto there have been no material evidences for that connection which is stated to have existed, both by embassies from Egypt and Syria to India, and by the great Buddist mission sent by Asoka as far west as Greece and Cyrene. We seem now to have touched the Indian colony in Memphis, and we may hope for more light on that connection which seems to have been so momentous for Western thought" (W. M. Flinders Petrie, The peoples of the Persian Empire, Man (1908) No.71:pp.129).
If Petrie's dating is correct this puts Buddhists in Egypt two hundred years before Asoka, sent Buddhist missionaries to Egypt.
Philostratus:The Life of Apollonius of Tyana makes it clear that the Gymnosophist lived in Upper Egypt and the Meroitic Empire. The historical evidence makes it clear that there was probably two migrations of Buddhist Gymnosophists to Egypt and the Meroitic Empire.
Asoka was a supporter of Buddhism. Zacharias P. Thundy, in Buddha and Christ make it clear that the edits of Asoka (c.274-236 BC) indicate that this ruler sent missionaries to Egypt to preach the Buddhist Dharma(pp.242-243).
Thundy maintains that archaeological evidence exist for a community of Indian sages living in Memphis as early as 200 BC (p.243).
We know that decendents of these missionaries were still in Egypt over two hundred years later because they were visited by Apollonius of Tyana.
Asoka used Kharosthi to write his edits. The Buddhist also used this writing system to record their scriptures. This means that the Gymnosophists would have had a long tradition of employing Kharosthi to communicate their ideas. The Gymnosophists were probably well respected by the Meroites and some Meroites probably had knowledge of Buddhist teachings and literacy.
Some Meroites may have played an important role in Buddhist because Blemmyae, a prominent group in the Meroitic Sudan are mentioned in Pali text Tipitaka (see:JDM Derrett, (2002) A Blemmya in India, Numen 49:460-474). Dr.Derrett wrote that in early Pali text " we have a Blemmya (an African) in front rank Buddhist texts of very respectable age (p.465).
The Buddhist text where Blemmya were mentioned are very old. The Vinaya pitaka, is dated to the 4th century B.C.E.
If Blemmya are mentioned in Buddhists text we can be sure that Meroites were not ignorant of Kharosthi. This would explain why many of the Meroitic symbols agree with Kharosthi. They agree because some Meroites were probably already literate in Kharosthi due to the influence of Buddhism in the Meroitic Empire.
.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb]would it be accurate to say that Jesus represented a Middle Eastern philosphy of strict "one God only" monotheism rather than African?
No. Jesus was against temple religion.
All african religions are based on monotheism. all africans are taught that there is One god, like Catholicism Africans believe there are intermediaries who are closer to GOD, who can get their prayers to GOD rapidly. In many ways it is similar to the Christian method of group church prayers, which are ended with the phrase "grant my prayer/request in Jesus's name".
This is not accurate. In African religions there is often a main creator God and there are also good, bad and nature dieties. They have independant powers and are not simply relayers of messages to God. It's not montheism and saints The Abrahamic religions from before the time of Christ forbid that.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Tocharian was a trade language.
If it was a trade languge it was a trade language of the The Tocharian inhabitants of northern edge of the Tarim Basin (modern Xinjiang, China).
It seems strange with so many nations and cultures in between that there would be a connection between in the Sudan region and people in China
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb]would it be accurate to say that Jesus represented a Middle Eastern philosphy of strict "one God only" monotheism rather than African?
No. Jesus was against temple religion.
All african religions are based on monotheism. all africans are taught that there is One god, like Catholicism Africans believe there are intermediaries who are closer to GOD, who can get their prayers to GOD rapidly. In many ways it is similar to the Christian method of group church prayers, which are ended with the phrase "grant my prayer/request in Jesus's name".
This is not accurate. In African religions there is often a main creator God and there are also good, bad and nature dieties. They have independant powers and are not simply relayers of messages to God. It's not montheism and saints The Abrahamic religions from before the time of Christ forbid that.
Granted, the African deities had powers but the main god was supreme. This is the same as Catholic Saints who are suppose to have powers to perform miracles that's why they are considered Saints.
Are you saying that Christ followed the religion practiced by the Hebrews of his Day? The Bible says otherwise.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Tocharian was a trade language.
If it was a trade languge it was a trade language of the The Tocharian inhabitants of northern edge of the Tarim Basin (modern Xinjiang, China).
It seems strange with so many nations and cultures in between that there would be a connection between in the Sudan region and people in China
It only seems strange when you ignore the fact that 1) Blymmys are mentioned in Buddhist text, 2)Asoka sent Buddhist missionaries to Egypt, 3) Petrie's discovery of Buddhist at Memphis,Egypt; and 4)Philostratus' : The Life of Apollonius of Tyana mention Buddhists in Egypt/Meroe.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: There was more to Meroite religion than just worship of "community gods". Worship of these local community gods was used to unify people within their local community. The people in these communities worshipped their local deity, while recognizing that a Creator God, was the GOD, who the individual worshipped through his/her expression of Goodnesss toward others. . .
.Gautama Buddha rejected the existence of a creator deity, refused to endorse many views on creation and stated that questions on the origin of the world are not ultimately useful for ending suffering.
There is nothing in Buddhism that attacks any religion.
quote: THE NOBLE EIGHTFOLD PATH
When the Buddha gave his first sermon in the Deer Park, he began the 'Turning of the Dharma Wheel'. He chose the beautiful symbol of the wheel with its eight spokes to represent the Noble Eightfold Path. The Buddha's teaching goes round and round like a great wheel that never stops, leading to the central point of the wheel, the only point which is fixed, Nirvana. The eight spokes on the wheel represent the eight parts of the Noble Eightfold Path. Just as every spoke is needed for the wheel to keep turning, we need to follow each step of the path.
1. Right View. The right way to think about life is to see the world through the eyes of the Buddha--with wisdom and compassion.
2. Right Thought. We are what we think. Clear and kind thoughts build good, strong characters.
3. Right Speech. By speaking kind and helpful words, we are respected and trusted by everyone.
4. Right Conduct. No matter what we say, others know us from the way we behave. Before we criticize others, we should first see what we do ourselves.
5. Right Livelihood. This means choosing a job that does not hurt others. The Buddha said, "Do not earn your living by harming others. Do not seek happiness by making others unhappy."
6. Right Effort. A worthwhile life means doing our best at all times and having good will toward others. This also means not wasting effort on things that harm ourselves and others.
7. Right Mindfulness. This means being aware of our thoughts, words, and deeds.
8. Right Concentration. Focus on one thought or object at a time. By doing this, we can be quiet and attain true peace of mind.
Following the Noble Eightfold Path can be compared to cultivating a garden, but in Buddhism one cultivates one's wisdom. The mind is the ground and thoughts are seeds. Deeds are ways one cares for the garden. Our faults are weeds. Pulling them out is like weeding a garden. The harvest is real and lasting happiness.
The aim of the Noble Eightfold Path was a path that would lead man to Goodness, which would end his suffering by guiding man to do what is Right and Good.
.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Tocharian was a trade language.
If it was a trade languge it was a trade language of the The Tocharian inhabitants of northern edge of the Tarim Basin (modern Xinjiang, China).
It seems strange with so many nations and cultures in between that there would be a connection between in the Sudan region and people in China
It only seems strange when you ignore the fact that 1) Blymmys are mentioned in Buddhist text, 2)Asoka sent Buddhist missionaries to Egypt, 3) Petrie's discovery of Buddhist at Memphis,Egypt; and 4)Philostratus' : The Life of Apollonius of Tyana mention Buddhists in Egypt/Meroe.
Ashoka sent missionaries to Ptolemy
This means the Meroites were buddhist ?
A mention in a Buddhist text of Blemmyes means the Blemmyes were Buddhits?
what is the name of the text and the quote where they are mentioned ?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb]would it be accurate to say that Jesus represented a Middle Eastern philosphy of strict "one God only" monotheism rather than African?
No. Jesus was against temple religion.
All african religions are based on monotheism. all africans are taught that there is One god, like Catholicism Africans believe there are intermediaries who are closer to GOD, who can get their prayers to GOD rapidly. In many ways it is similar to the Christian method of group church prayers, which are ended with the phrase "grant my prayer/request in Jesus's name".
This is not accurate. In African religions there is often a main creator God and there are also good, bad and nature dieties. They have independant powers and are not simply relayers of messages to God. It's not montheism and saints The Abrahamic religions from before the time of Christ forbid that.
Granted, the African deities had powers but the main god was supreme. This is the same as Catholic Saints who are suppose to have powers to perform miracles that's why they are considered Saints.
Are you saying that Christ followed the religion practiced by the Hebrews of his Day? The Bible says otherwise.
"Therefore, the man who infringes even the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be considered the least in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:17-19).
_______________________________
In John 4:21-26 Jesus identifies himself as a Jew:
John 4:21-26 King James Version (KJV) 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
_________________________
The word "Messiah" had a different meaning than it has today. Contemporary believers usually think of the Messiah as a wholly spiritual figure. Then, it meant a military leader who would free the Jews from foreign (i.e., Roman) rule, bring them back from the four corners of the earth, and usher in an age of universal peace. A century after Jesus, many Jews accepted the military general, Bar-Kokhba as the Messiah, although even his greatest supporter, Rabbi Akiva, made no claims regarding his spiritual greatness. Indeed, it was precisely because of the military association with the word "Messiah" that the occupying Roman authorities must have seen Jesus as dangerous and decided to crucify him. That the Romans hung over Jesus' body a sign proclaiming his crime, KING OF THE JEWS, again underscores the apparently militant and political direction of his activities.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Tocharian was a trade language.
If it was a trade languge it was a trade language of the The Tocharian inhabitants of northern edge of the Tarim Basin (modern Xinjiang, China).
It seems strange with so many nations and cultures in between that there would be a connection between in the Sudan region and people in China
It only seems strange when you ignore the fact that 1) Blymmys are mentioned in Buddhist text, 2)Asoka sent Buddhist missionaries to Egypt, 3) Petrie's discovery of Buddhist at Memphis,Egypt; and 4)Philostratus' : The Life of Apollonius of Tyana mention Buddhists in Egypt/Meroe.
Ashoka sent missionaries to Ptolemy
This means the Meroites were buddhist ?
A mention in a Buddhist text of Blemmyes means the Blemmyes were Buddhits?
what is the name of the text and the quote where they are mentioned ?
Meroites played an important role in Buddhism because Blemmyae, a prominent group in the Meroitic Sudan are mentioned in Pali text Tipitaka.see:JDM Derrett, (2002) A Blemmya in India, Numen 49:460-474. Dr.Derrett wrote that in early Pali text " we have a Blemmya (an African) in front rank Buddhist texts of very respectable age (p.465).
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb]would it be accurate to say that Jesus represented a Middle Eastern philosphy of strict "one God only" monotheism rather than African?
No. Jesus was against temple religion.
All african religions are based on monotheism. all africans are taught that there is One god, like Catholicism Africans believe there are intermediaries who are closer to GOD, who can get their prayers to GOD rapidly. In many ways it is similar to the Christian method of group church prayers, which are ended with the phrase "grant my prayer/request in Jesus's name".
This is not accurate. In African religions there is often a main creator God and there are also good, bad and nature dieties. They have independant powers and are not simply relayers of messages to God. It's not montheism and saints The Abrahamic religions from before the time of Christ forbid that.
Granted, the African deities had powers but the main god was supreme. This is the same as Catholic Saints who are suppose to have powers to perform miracles that's why they are considered Saints.
Are you saying that Christ followed the religion practiced by the Hebrews of his Day? The Bible says otherwise.
"Therefore, the man who infringes even the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be considered the least in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:17-19).
_______________________________
In John 4:21-26 Jesus identifies himself as a Jew:
John 4:21-26 King James Version (KJV) 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
_________________________
The word "Messiah" had a different meaning than it has today. Contemporary believers usually think of the Messiah as a wholly spiritual figure. Then, it meant a military leader who would free the Jews from foreign (i.e., Roman) rule, bring them back from the four corners of the earth, and usher in an age of universal peace. A century after Jesus, many Jews accepted the military general, Bar-Kokhba as the Messiah, although even his greatest supporter, Rabbi Akiva, made no claims regarding his spiritual greatness. Indeed, it was precisely because of the military association with the word "Messiah" that the occupying Roman authorities must have seen Jesus as dangerous and decided to crucify him. That the Romans hung over Jesus' body a sign proclaiming his crime, KING OF THE JEWS, again underscores the apparently militant and political direction of his activities.
There is nothing in these quotes about temple worship. That is why Christian churches go to the Old Testement to support paying dues to the church.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
THE MEROITIC SPIRITUAL FORMS
Obviously the Meroitic language in the funerary texts include many Egyptian cognates. For example:
Meroitic Egyptian
Khi khat 'body, external body, spirit'
Kha ka 'the abstract personality of man'
Kho, Khe khu 'a shinning or translucent spirit soul.
The Khu, was suppose to reside in heaven when a man dies. In the Meroitic inscriptions there is constant mention of the khi; kha; kho and the Ba 'soul'.
The Kha was seen as the supreme offering of the deceased. It was to be taken along the ate (path), to be judged by Isis and Osiris as eligible for rebirth. The ate was the path taken by the Kha's ascent to rebirth.
In the archaic Meroitic text we find mention of the mlo, 'inner heart'. The mlo is often referred to as the mlo ol 'grand inner heart'. The heart of the departed Meroite was therefore weighed for goodness.
The Meroitic texts indicate that the mlo was suppose to determine if the Meroites piety was great enough to guarantee his Kha's transmigration. It would appear from the Tañyidamani text that the Good of a man was believed to be contained in the inner heart. The migration of the inner heart from the tomb full of the deceased person's Kha, was meant to elevate the Good Meroite to a high status. This indicates that the deceased Meroite was suppose to be free of wrong doing and a full supporter of the divine order, if s/he was to enter the afterworld kingdom of Osiris.
Thusly the mlo ol, was recognized as a guide down the grand path (ate) to a new vivification of the deceased. The mlo ol, was the guide, sent ahead of the Kha, to insure the departed person's rebirth. This was necessary because if the deceased person's Kha and mlo ol were found to be full of n(a)ne (Goodness), s/he was granted a revitalized soul and rebirth.
It would appear that a major function of the škh was to also prop up Good. The škh was therefore often made an offering to the Meroite gods.
It appears from the Meroitic funerary text that the (Kho), would remain with the body until its flesh decayed, then it would wither away, leave the tomb or hunt it. The deceased person usually requested that Isis and Osiris escort this Kho, safely to one of the Meroite afterworlds.
In the funerary inscriptions we also find much mention of the Ba or Be. I have interpreted the term Ø ba #, as 'soul'. The ba, united the conception of the Kha, and the Khe/Kho. The best place to find this term in the Meroitic funerary literature include the Tañyidamani, Armina West and Karanog steleas.
In the Tañyidamani stela, for example, the Ba,Am and Kha, had to play specific roles. In the ancient Meroitic text the term am meant 'spirit soul' (Winters, 1999). In the late and transitional Meroitic text there is very little mention of the am. The Kho replaced it.
In the Tañyidamani stela , line 146, we discover that the ŝkh (spirit body) and the kha , were to be released from the body to protect his soul. Upon release the Ŝkh was to prop up Goodness. It was also suppose to be an offering to the Meroitic gods.
The spirit body of the King was to sustain Good at the burial site. For example the Ba of Tañyidamani was to remain at Jebel Barkal (Tañyidamani stela, lines 33-34) for a period of time continuing to serve Aman, while it represented a talisman of blessing for the pilgrims that visited his tomb. According to the Tañyidamani stela ,line 139, the Ba was a gift to Aman (Winters, 1999). This may explain the placement of the Meroitic carved items such as the ba statues and funerary tablets outside the Meroite tombs. (Adams 1977: 377-378) Placement outside the tomb probably tolerated the ba's effortless access to flight.
In the late Meroitic text. The Ba, was no longer forced to stay at the tomb. In these inscriptions it is made clear that the Ba, retired in B(a)ne.
THE GODS
Many Meroitic gods were formerly worshipped in Egypt. These gods include Isis, Osiris, Mash, Bes, Nephthys and Anubis. Other Meroitic gods were of Meroitic origin. These gods include Apedemak and Sebewyemeker (Sbomeker). Sebewyemeker is believed to have been recognized as the creator god by some southern Meroites. The Lion-god Apedemak was the warrior god.
In the steleas and offering tables of the Meroites we find mention of the various characteristics of their gods. But there are two sacral inscriptions, which provide us with important information about the Meroitic gods, which we will discuss in detail below.
AMAN
The principal god of the Meroites was Amun or Aman. Aman had been worshipped by the Kushites since the Kerma dynasty. The long worship of Aman by the Kushites may explain his high standing throughout the Meroitic Empire (O'Connor 1993:79). This would explain the establishment of large Aman temples at Jebel Barkal and Meroe.
The center of Aman worship was Napata. Aman, the hidden god was closely connected to Meroitic kingship. as a result there are Aman temples in Meroe City, Napata and Kawa.
Millet (1984:116-117) believes that the Meroitic king was probably recognized as a "trusted and privileged paramount agent of the gods than either their brother or their servant". The Meroitic inscription on the other hand make it clear that both the Meroite king and commoners all recognized themselves as the ŝ 'servant’, 'patron' of the gods.
Napata was the main religious center of the Kushites. Jebel Barkal was both the companion site of Napata , and the sacred mountain of the city of Napata. It was identified as the holy southern abode of the god Amon. Jebel Barkal, was considered the southern most center for Amun/Amon worship in north Africa. Reisner excavated this rock outcrop between 1913 and 1916.
Aman had long been worshiped by the Kushites. The Kushites/C-Group people of Kerma first worshiped Amun long before the founding of the temple of Aman at Jebel Barkal.. Many of the Meroitic kings were buried at Jebel Barkal after 300 B.C.(1). The Egyptians called Jebel Barkal, dw w Ʒ b 'holy mountain'. At the foot of Jebel Barkal, the Egyptians erected the great temple of Amon in the 15th century B.C.
Aman was recognized by the Kushites as a supreme creator god, the god of the Sun, and progenitor of the king. In addition to Aman, the Kushites also worshipped the Egyptian gods Isis and Osiris. The goddess Isis watched over the rites of metamorphosis, while Osiris was suppose to lead the dead to paradise.(2).
Aman was also referred to as Amani and Amnpe or Amanape. The term Amanape probably should be interpreted as Amn p-ne or 'Aman the foundation (of Good)'. The Meroites often called the god Aman, Amani. Amani was recognized as the creator of the Kushites and supporter of all existence in the inscriptions from Armina West (Trigger 1970).
The Meroites recognized Aman as a god that 'inclined' man towards good. Aman was also considered a guide to the rebirth. The Meroites believed that Aman had the ability to make his
s 'patron, supporter', a sign of honor. In the Armina West inscription (Trigger 1970), we see the following passage:
Si ye qo wi-ne nt-ne Amni se-ne-a bo y /or/ 'Content to live everlasting bowing in reverence to Amani, (who is) supporting (now) all existence'.
ISIS AND OSIRIS
The most popular gods in the Meroitic texts were Isis and Osiris. On the offering tables we also find the goddess Nephthys and the god Anubis depicted pouring libations for the departed.
Among the Meroites Osiris was recognized as the maker of merit. He was also the guide to the Meroitic afterworld.
It would appear that Wos-i (Isis) was responsible for giving the dead person's Kha, the right to leave for paradise while she watched over other aspects of the metamorphosis of the Meroitic King into the Kha, Ba, Khi, and Am.
Wos was responsible for the deceased person's transmigration. It was Isis who authorized a new vivification for the departed. In Armina West stela no. 1, Side B, lines 14-15 (Trigger 1970), we discover that:
(14) Te s-ne Wos p e y ke /or/ 'Bring the new vivification Isis, give (its) foundation, make (its) authorization'.
(15) S-ne-l qe te h no ne-i hre. 'The new vivification to give birth to the Kha anew, in truth and dignity'.
The Napata inscription-statue no.75, gives us some very interesting information about Isis. Napata statue no.75 is made of black granite. This statue depicts Isis on a throne nursing Horus.(3). This Meroitic piece is found in the Berlin Museum (Inv. no.2258).
TRANSLITERATION OF NAPATA STATUE NO.75
1. ALE E QE S-NE E QE E TER.
2. TK Ŝ W-NE SOH-NE ATe RE.
3. KE-B E-NE TeNE KEL HENEL.
4. TeM WI-NE S E Y-S-NE-I D I.
5. PQ ODE NE-I PL-E-TO NENO-B.
6.TeNE KL NE I PL MK L-TONE.
7. ATER LK-E BO KE TEM OTE.
8. TO E W-NE EK-TE R L-TE E TE.
9. Ŝ D TeM OTE NE WOŜ NE-TE W-NE.
10. W E O I TE LO-NE-TE NEK EL.
11. S S N S LI-NE-L NO.
12. KED D-NE ATeR-E ŜB.
13. TeL-NE Te W WI-NE PL-E.
14. Te S-NE WOŜ PE Y KE.
15. S-NE-L QE Te H NEI HRE.
16. S-NE KE K-NE...WOŜ QO.
17. Ŝ-NE AB ENE...TO.
TRANSLATION OF NAPATA STATUE NO.75
"(1) Give noble renewal (Oh Isis) to the new vivification. Give renewal--give (its) erection. (2) Reflect (on) the patron (and) guide good prosperity (on the) good path indeed. (3) Desire (patron) the bestowal of a rebirth to resound in Henel.(4) (4) (Goodness) come(s) into being as an Object of Respect (for) the patron. Give existence to the new vivification. Go (now) and give (it) leave. (5) Fashion wonderment (and) order (Oh Isis)--you will commence (to make wonderment) in abundance. (6) The good Supporter even go(es) to wipe out much non-existence. (7) The hero to behold all. Act (now) to bear approbation.(5) (8) You give guidance and nourishment. This (is done) by transmigration--give (its) existence. (9) The disciple indeed to reflect (on) Isis the good,(she) puts ( on you guidance). (10) (Isis) lead(s). She commences to arrange your transmigration. Arrange now the gifts. (11) The patron (of Isis) s/he (is) to be exalted, like new. (12) Spread the bequeathal of the hero in a pile. (13) Rise to arrange and guide (us to) honor (Oh Isis). Much praise go(es) forth, (14) Isis (is) to also bring authorization for the new vivification. (15) The new vivification to give birth to the Kha anew in truth and dignity. (16) The Patron has permission to realize (it)...Isis (is) to make it (happen) (17) (For) the good patron, the ancestor, (and) the Commander...."
Meroites played an important role in Buddhism because Blemmyae, a prominent group in the Meroitic Sudan are mentioned in Pali text Tipitaka.see:JDM Derrett, (2002) A Blemmya in India, Numen 49:460-474. Dr.Derrett wrote that in early Pali text " we have a Blemmya (an African) in front rank Buddhist texts of very respectable age (p.465). [/QB]
without the example it is just an obscure claim. The quote above doesn't say Blemmyae played an important role in Buddhism. It only says Blemmya are mentioned in prominant Buddhist texts. That doesn't mean they necessarily had a role in Buddhist ideas.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Meroites played an important role in Buddhism because Blemmyae, a prominent group in the Meroitic Sudan are mentioned in Pali text Tipitaka.see:JDM Derrett, (2002) A Blemmya in India, Numen 49:460-474. Dr.Derrett wrote that in early Pali text " we have a Blemmya (an African) in front rank Buddhist texts of very respectable age (p.465).
without the example it is just an obscure claim. The quote above doesn't say Blemmyae played an important role in Buddhism. It only says Blemmya are mentioned in prominant Buddhist texts. That doesn't mean they necessarily had a role in Buddhist ideas. [/QB]
LOL. I never said the Blemmyae influenced the ideas of Buddhism, because these ideas are of Buddha himself.
The fact is Blemmyae, i.e., East Africans were familiar with Buddhism at an early date and explains the presence of Buddhists in Meroitic Empire and Egypt. A presence noted by greco-Roman writers.
.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Here's a pdf document written by the same author of the book on the Meroitic language in 2011.
From The Double Kingdom Under Taharqo: Studies in the History of Kush and Egypt, C. 690 664 BC by Jeremy W. Pope (2014)
In textual form:
quote:At the outset, it is necessary to eliminate one point of potential distraction. For scholars specializing in regions beyond the Middle Nile, the assertion that the Twenty-Fifth Dynasty originated at Meroë may appear a natural one, for it has been routinely observed in the literature that the dynasts themselves bore Meroitic nomina.13 Yet the apparent linkage between these two points is based upon a confusion of geographic and linguistic terminology. The Meroitic language was first named as such by Heinrich Brugsch, because the texts available to him had been collected by Lepsius from precisely the Meroë region.14 To the ancients, the language was more likely designated by some variant of ’Ikš, “Kushite.”15 The “Meroitic” label has been retained in later scholarship as a convenient means of periodization: the grammar of the language first assumed written form during an era when the kings were buried in the vicinity of Meroë City at the Begrawiya North cemetery.
quote:In all other respects, there is nothing distinctly Meroitic about the language which bears this name, for the Meroë region would seem to correspond neither to the language’s area of origin nor to its geographic range of distribution , insofar as both have been reconstructed in recent scholarship. Based upon the linguistic principle of least moves and certain suggestive lexical considerations, Claude Rilly has argued that Proto-North Eastern Sudanic—the sub-family of the Nilo-Saharan phylum from which Meroitic and Old (medieval) Nubian equally derive—may have spread from the region between Dongola and Darfur , as the Wadi Howar succumbed to increasing aridity during the middle of the third millennium BC and its inhabitants dispersed in search of more favorable conditions along the Middle Nile and the southern savannah.16 By the first half of the second millennium BC, an early form of the Meroitic language appears to have been spoken already by Kushite individuals known to Egypt’s Hyksos regime, for Papyrus Golenischeff at Krokodilopolis lists several anthroponyms with recognizably Meroitic linguistic features.17 Given the political landscape of that era, the residence of the individuals named in Papyrus Golenischeff would seem to be in the vicinity of Kerma, home of the Hyksos’s Kushite allies and terminus of the desert routes leading from the Fayum. Thus, the later use of Meroitic nomina by the Twenty-Fifth Dynasty no more proves their origin from Meroë than it does their origin from Kerma, where the language had likely been in use for a millennium. Consequently, the authors who have proposed Meroë as the origin of the Twenty-Fifth Dynasty have not done so on exclusively linguistic grounds.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: More about Meroitic
From The Double Kingdom Under Taharqo: Studies in the History of Kush and Egypt, C. 690 664 BC by Jeremy W. Pope (2014)
In textual form:
quote:At the outset, it is necessary to eliminate one point of potential distraction. For scholars specializing in regions beyond the Middle Nile, the assertion that the Twenty-Fifth Dynasty originated at Meroë may appear a natural one, for it has been routinely observed in the literature that the dynasts themselves bore Meroitic nomina.13 Yet the apparent linkage between these two points is based upon a confusion of geographic and linguistic terminology. The Meroitic language was first named as such by Heinrich Brugsch, because the texts available to him had been collected by Lepsius from precisely the Meroë region.14 To the ancients, the language was more likely designated by some variant of ’Ikš, “Kushite.”15 The “Meroitic” label has been retained in later scholarship as a convenient means of periodization: the grammar of the language first assumed written form during an era when the kings were buried in the vicinity of Meroë City at the Begrawiya North cemetery.
quote:In all other respects, there is nothing distinctly Meroitic about the language which bears this name, for the Meroë region would seem to correspond neither to the language’s area of origin nor to its geographic range of distribution , insofar as both have been reconstructed in recent scholarship. Based upon the linguistic principle of least moves and certain suggestive lexical considerations, Claude Rilly has argued that Proto-North Eastern Sudanic—the sub-family of the Nilo-Saharan phylum from which Meroitic and Old (medieval) Nubian equally derive—may have spread from the region between Dongola and Darfur , as the Wadi Howar succumbed to increasing aridity during the middle of the third millennium BC and its inhabitants dispersed in search of more favorable conditions along the Middle Nile and the southern savannah.16 By the first half of the second millennium BC, an early form of the Meroitic language appears to have been spoken already by Kushite individuals known to Egypt’s Hyksos regime, for Papyrus Golenischeff at Krokodilopolis lists several anthroponyms with recognizably Meroitic linguistic features.17 Given the political landscape of that era, the residence of the individuals named in Papyrus Golenischeff would seem to be in the vicinity of Kerma, home of the Hyksos’s Kushite allies and terminus of the desert routes leading from the Fayum. Thus, the later use of Meroitic nomina by the Twenty-Fifth Dynasty no more proves their origin from Meroë than it does their origin from Kerma, where the language had likely been in use for a millennium. Consequently, the authors who have proposed Meroë as the origin of the Twenty-Fifth Dynasty have not done so on exclusively linguistic grounds.
The problem for this researcher is that the Meroites used the Egyptian language as a lingua franca to unite the Meroites who were probably of different ethnic origins and therefore you would not find Merotic used by the members of the 25th Dynasty.
Meroitic came into being only after vast numbers of Egyptians entered the Meroitic Empire and the lingua franca was changed to Meroitic.
.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
^^^A lingua franca is not the mother tongue of the majority of the people (although it can become the mother tongue, but then, we don't talk of 'lingua franca' anymore). People can speak proper Ancient Egyptian as a second language or as a lingua franca and still speak other languages in their regions and among their people. Of course, the best example is modern Africa, many people speak english, french or portuguese as a lingua franca or second language or trade language but speak their own languages too like Zulu, Dogon, Wolof, etc. Same with Europe too in fact, where each nations have their own languages but use English as second language/lingua franca between Europeans. At the moment, English is pretty much the lingua franca of the world but not the mother tongue of the world.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: ^^^A lingua franca is not the mother tongue of the majority of the people (although it can become the mother tongue, but then, we don't talk of 'lingua franca' anymore). People can speak proper Ancient Egyptian as a second language or as a lingua franca and still speak other languages in their regions and among their people. Of course, the best example is modern Africa, many people speak english, french or portuguese as a lingua franca or second language or trade language but speak their own languages too like Zulu, Dogon, Wolof, etc. Same with Europe too in fact, where each nations have their own languages but use English as second language/lingua franca between Europeans. At the moment, english is pretty much the lingua franca of the world but not the mother tongue of the world.
You are correct a lingua franca can be a 'mother tongue'.The idea of mother tongue is complicatrd when children live in a bilingual enviroment. The definition of mother tongue is" The language which a person has grown up speaking from early childhood". In Kenya people speak varios languages--but they grow up speaking Swahili, just like people in India speak numerous Indo-Aryan languages--yet they are able to speak Hindi; and in China the Chinese speak numerous languages--but the mother tongue is Mandarin. In the case of Swahili and Hindi people living in a bilingual society learn multiple languages that might be considered mother tongues.
As a result Egyptian was a lingua franca, and also the mother tongue of the Egyptians.
In Africa many Africans can speak more than one language fluently.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Swahili is mostly a trade language, spoken as a second language by many people. Relatively few people speak it natively. A bit like English around the world.
Ancient Egyptian may have been a lingua franca in the region but many people spoke other languages as their regional languages including Meroitic (and its ancestor/descendant languages).
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Swahili is mostly a trade language, spoken as a second language by many people. Relatively few people speak it natively. A bit like English around the world.
Ancient Egyptian may have been a lingua franca but many people imo spoke another language as their regional languages including Meroitic (and its ancestor/descendant languages).
Correct. The Meroites used Egyptian as their national language uhtil the fall of Egypt as illustrated by the discussion above of the language spoken by rulers of the 25th Dynasty.
.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Swahili is mostly a trade language, spoken as a second language by many people. Relatively few people speak it natively. A bit like English around the world.
Ancient Egyptian may have been a lingua franca but many people imo spoke another language as their regional languages including Meroitic (and its ancestor/descendant languages).
Correct. The Meroites used Egyptian as their national language uhtil the fall of Egypt as illustrated by the discussion above of the language spoken by rulers of the 25th Dynasty.
.
So, I don't understand the problem you have with the quote from the book. Kushites from the 25th Dynasty can use Ancient Egyptian as the national language and still speak Meroitic or related languages.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Ancient Egypt was probably a multi-ethnic society like the United States where people speak different mother tongues, in addition to English. Riggs and Baines have suggested that distinctive types of burial and pottery assemblages associated with different periods of Egyptian history may indicate the acculturation of people with different ethnic backgrounds into Egyptian society, who may have continued to distinguish their ethnic identity.
This would explain why each sepat or nome had its own god, while the nation had its on god recognized by the Egyptians, e.g., first Ra and later with the New Kingdom kings the god Amma/Ammon. Biggs and Baines (2012) wrote: “…any notion that the ancient Egyptian population was ethnically unified should be abandoned as a fiction projected by the dominant ideology and often largely accepted by Egyptologists.” Since the Assyrians first conquered the Egyptians there has been a slow replacement of ancient Egyptians by Middle Eastern and Western European peoples.
Beginning with the Assyrian defeat of the Twenty-Fifth Dynasty large number of nomadic people from the Middle East began to migrate into Egypt. These people began to take over many Egyptian settlements, while other Egyptians fled to Nubia and Kush to avoid non-Egyptian rule.
Other ancient Egyptian caused political and military conflicts that led many Egyptians to migrate out of Egypt into Nubia and Kush. Herodotus’ mentions the mutiny of Psamtik I’s frontier garrison at Elephantine—these deerters moved into Kush. Moreover, the archaizing trend in Kush among the post Twenty-Fifth Dynasty Kings testfy to a possible large migration of Egyptians into Kush.
In 343 BC Nectanebos II, fled to Upper Egypt. Later according to the Natasen period stela we evidence of other Egyptians migrating into Kush from Egypt (Torok, 1997, p.391).
Between the 260’s-270’s BC Upper Egyptian Nationalists were fighting the Ptolemy (Greek) rulers of Egypt. The rebellion was put down by Ptolemy II. This military action led to Egyptians migrating out of Egypt into Kush (Torok, pp.395-396). These rebellions continued in Egypt into the 2nd Century BC (Torok, p.426).
Between Ptolomy II and Ptolemy V, the Greeks began to settle Egypt. This was especially true in the 150’sBC and led to many Egyptians migrating back into Egypt.
By the time the Romans entered Egypt, many Egyptians had already left Egypt and settled. Roman politics also forced many Egyptians to migrate into Kush. This was compounded by the introduction of the Pax Agusta policy of the Romans which sought the establishment of Roman hegemony within territories under Roman rule (Torok, 454-456). This led to the emigration of many Romans into Egypt.
Just like Egypt, and most African countries today, Kush was a multi-ethnic society. It included speakers of many languages within the empire. During most of Kushite history the elites used Egyptian for record keeping since it was recognized as a neutral language.
As more and more Egyptians, led by Egyptian nationalists, fled to Kush as it became under foreign dominantion the Egyptians formed a large minority in the Empire. Because of Egyptian migrations to Kush, by the rule of the Meroitic Queen Shanakdakheto, we find the Egyptian language abandoned as a medium of exchange in official records, and the Meroitic script takes its place.
By the rise of Greeks in Egypt, the cultural ideology , like the people were changing. This is supported by the transition from Demotic writing (7th 5th Centuries BC) to Coptic (4th BC-AD 1400). The Coptic people are the best evidence for the change in the Egyptian population due to the change in the Egyptian population.
Statue of Queen Shanakdakhete /Shanakdakheto (170-150 BCE) ruling queen of Kush, and a male member of her family giving her royal power.
Her name is carved in a ruined temple where the earliest inscriptions in Meroitic hieroglyphic writing are found. Her pyramid at Meroe is one of the largest ever built for a Kushite ruler. It has a unique chapel with two rooms and two pylons. The chapel is among the most elaborately carved of any known. The scenes in the chapel show military campaigns to the south and the capture of numerous cattle and prisoners.
Red sandstone relief from the pyramid chapel of Queen Shanakdakhete
From Meroe, Nubia Meroitic Period
Check out my books: Meroitic Writing and Literature
Meroitic Writing and Literature is divided into three parts. The first part of the book explains how I used the Kushana hypothesis to decipher the Meroitic script. It will outline the Classical literature that informed my decipherment of Meroitic and how Buddhists early settled in Upper Egypt and the Meroitic Empire and spread their religion and writing system: Tocharian.
In Part two we outline the grammar of Meroitic. It will provide readers with a detailed overview of the Meroitic language and its grammar.
Part Three provides translations of key Meroitic text. These texts provide knowledge of the lifeway’s of the Meroites especially their religion and some historical data.
The Meroitic literature discussed in this book include : The Inscriptions of Tanyidamani; The Meroitic Chamber Inscription of Philae; and Meroitic Evidence for a Blemmy Empire in the Dodekaschoinas. These text were chosen because they include text written in archaic Meroitic (Tanyidemani), and other text written in late Meroitic.
Meroitic Writing and Literature, is the first account of the Meroitic language and literature. It will allow readers the opportunity to learn how to read/decipher Meroitic text, while acquiring an intimate knowledge of the Meroites as individuals.
The Meroitic Language, provides a detailed account of the language of the Kushites who founded the Meroitic Empire. In Meroitic Language, Dr. Winters explains his decipherment of the Meroitic language and provides an outline of the grammar of the Meroitic language.
Meroitic language provides readers with the necessary tools to read the Meroitic inscriptions.It also gives the reader key insight into the culture and religion of the Kushites.
Meroitic Language can be purchased at Scribd. Purchase the full version and... • Read the full version in your browser • Send to mobile device • Download as pdf (PDF) • Download as txt (Text file)
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Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Extract from Historical Linguistics and the Comparative Study of African Languages By Gerrit J. Dimmendaal (2011)
In textual form: "Greenberg (1971) supports the hypothesis by Trigger (1964) of an Eastern Sudanic (Nilo-Saharan) affiliation for Meroitic, the language of the Kingdom of Cush. Rilly (2003, 2009) presents further convincing evidence that the extinct language of the Meroitic empire, preserved in written records which have been only partly deciphered, shows Eastern Sudanic affinity. It probably is most closely related to Eastern Sudanic groups such as Nubian, Taman, Nara and Nyimang (plus Dinik), i.e. to Northern East ern Sudanic (Rilly 2003; Dimmendaal 2008b)." Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Historical linguistics and the comparative study of African languages (review) Larry M. Hyman, Florian Lionnet From: Language Volume 88, Number 3, September 2012 pp. 640-644 | 10.1353/lan.2012.0067
In lieu of an abstract, here is a brief excerpt of the content:
As indicated by the title, this important new work attempts to wed the traditional field of historical linguistics with the comparative study of African languages. This is a particularly welcome effort by one of the world's most distinguished scholars in African linguistics. Although most of Gerrit Dimmendaal's research has centered around Nilotic and adjacent areas of East Africa, much of which he cites, D makes a serious effort to treat other areas and linguistic groups from throughout the continent./b] The result is an impressive reference work that students and scholars alike will want to own and consult. D's coverage of issues is extensive, as he addresses not only linguistic reconstruction and language classification, but also issues that arise in the study of language in context. As a result one gets a feel not only for the forms and where they come from, but also for how they are actually used in various African communities. The over thirty pages of references (373-406) further attest to the serious scholarship that went into the production of this work.
Although there have been recent books introducing African linguistics (Heine & Nurse 2000, Mutaka & Tamanji 2000, Childs 2003), areal linguistics (Heine & Nurse 2008), and language history (Blench 2006), D's goal in writing this book is quite unique. As he states in the preface, his original intention was to produce a historical linguistics textbook drawing mostly from African languages, wishing especially to target 'many students in African countries [who] do not have access to more recent developments in historical-comparative linguistics or to the literature published on language families in their home countries' (ix).
[b]What this book in part represents, then, is an experiment: as opposed to the standard texts based on Indo-European, the question is whether one can successfully teach historical linguistics drawing primarily from African languages (or similarly for other language areas, for example, Australia and the Pacific; Crowley & Bowern 2010). D goes on to say, however, that the ultimate publication strays from his original intention:
The initial plan was to write an introduction to comparative linguistics with special focus on Africa. Due to the fact that the original manuscript had to be reduced considerably, the end result was a much more dense presentation of information on different topics, which also requires more extensive basic knowledge of linguistics. As a result, the text probably is no longer suitable as an introduction for undergraduates. Instead, it has become a textbook for more advanced students of linguistics and colleagues working on language families outside of Africa with an interest in a state of the art in African linguistics as seen by the present author.
D thus often refers to the book as 'a monograph on the comparative study of African languages' (245). This pinpoints two problems, which we note in our review. The first is that this is not one book, but two: in Part 1 (Chs. 1-7) it starts out as an introductory textbook in historical linguistics, but it gradually transforms in Parts 2 and 3 (Chs. 8-16) into D's view of how African languages bear on comparative and historical issues, including controversial ones. Beyond the early chapters on the comparative method that cite well-accepted concepts and Indo-European examples, the later topics are increasingly qualified by the phrase 'in the present author's view'. This duality produces certain organizational as well as conceptual problems, which students and other readers will have to disentangle.
The second problem concerns the content itself. At various points in reading the book, we came away with the feeling that it needed more serious editing and proofreading. Although most of the infelicities that occur should be quite easy to correct, the organizational issues will likely require some revision, should D (and the publisher) consider a second edition.
As indicated, the volume consists of three parts. Part 1, 'The comparative method' (Chs. 1-7), is concerned with methodology and the mechanisms of linguistic change as they affect sound systems, morphology, syntax, and semantics. Part 2, 'The linguistic manifestation of contact' (Chs. 8-12), treats the role of language contact and its historical effects, for example, in producing pidgins and creoles, mixed...
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Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: This is a particularly welcome effort by one of the world's most distinguished scholars in African linguistics. Although most of Gerrit Dimmendaal's research has centered around Nilotic and adjacent areas of East Africa, much of which he cites, D makes a serious effort to treat other areas and linguistic groups from throughout the continent. The result is an impressive reference work that students and scholars alike will want to own and consult. D's coverage of issues is extensive, as he addresses not only linguistic reconstruction and language classification, but also issues that arise in the study of language in context.
I don't know why you post this review of the book beside as some kind of misguided knee-jerk reaction because I don't see anything good for you in it.
We learn that Gerrit Dimmendaal is one of the world's most distinguished scholars, a specialist of "Nilotic and adjacent areas of East Africa" , and that "The result is an impressive reference work that students and scholars alike will want to own and consult."
Thanks for posting a review of that impressive reference book written by one of the world's most distinguished scholars.
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
I actually have this text as well. It is good. Get it. And for the record, all linguistic works should be considered 'in the present author's view', because they are not, in the strictest sense of the term, quantitative studies; but qualitative. This is something you'll learn very fast once you start reading the data from a wide variety of linguists. In the end, you just end up belonging to one "camp" or another.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: I actually have this text as well. It is good. Get it. And for the record, all linguistic works should be considered 'in the present author's view', because they are not, in the strictest sense of the term, quantitative studies; but qualitative. This is something you'll learn very fast once you start reading the data from a wide variety of linguists. In the end, you just end up belonging to one "camp" or another.
I don't have it but been reading some part of it through google books. It is very good and affordable. Your "endorsement" makes it even more tempting.
Especially in social sciences there's always camps among scholars sometimes even in things we take for granted such as the theory of evolution or some well known aspect of the monarchy history in Britain.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: This is a particularly welcome effort by one of the world's most distinguished scholars in African linguistics. Although most of Gerrit Dimmendaal's research has centered around Nilotic and adjacent areas of East Africa, much of which he cites, D makes a serious effort to treat other areas and linguistic groups from throughout the continent. The result is an impressive reference work that students and scholars alike will want to own and consult. D's coverage of issues is extensive, as he addresses not only linguistic reconstruction and language classification, but also issues that arise in the study of language in context.
I don't know why you post this review of the book beside as some kind of misguided knee-jerk reaction because I don't see anything good for you in it.
We learn that Gerrit Dimmendaal is one of the world's most distinguished scholars, a specialist of "Nilotic and adjacent areas of East Africa" , and that "The result is an impressive reference work that students and scholars alike will want to own and consult."
Thanks for posting a review of that impressive reference book written by one of the world's most distinguished scholars.
He is a distinguished scholar with extensive background in studying the Nilotic Family of languages. That's why he frequently cites his own work throughout his book..
I like the book too. I wish he would have provided more information on the Mande and Atlantic group of languages.
Most of the examples as he admits, come from his study of the Nilotic group and kordafanian. His exposition on the Bantu languages is a good review of the large body of work on this family of languages.
I hope you pay attention to the examples he provide for Proto-African terms you will note that most proto-African terms are*-vcv, *cvcv , and very little evidence of aspiration. After reviewing the proto-African terms cited in the text you may recognize my concern about Moboli's Negro-Egyptian reconstructions.
The main shortcoming of the book is that he fails to review the work of any African comparative linguists such as Diop and Obenga. I also noticed that he did not discuss the work of Homburger or Anselin, linguist who have pointed out the genetic relationship between Black African and Egyptian languages. .
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I hope you pay attention to the examples he provide for Proto-African terms you will note that most proto-African terms are*-vcv, *cvcv , and very little evidence of aspiration. After reviewing the proto-African terms cited in the text you may recognize my concern about oboli's Negro-Egyptian reconstructions.
I can't discuss much the validity of books I don't have. Just to make it clear, since it seems you're talking to me. I didn't read Mboli's book so I know almost nothing about his reconstruction. I also have some interrogations about the little I read about it. What I support is Obenga's Negro-Egyptian classification . What is proposed seems to be in line with other bio(genetic)-archeological line of evidence (E-P2,etc). It is also somewhat very close to the mainstream viewpoints about African languages classification. It only add a common ancestor language at the top of well known African language families. Considering all African languages families are said to have originated in the same approximate area in Eastern Africa by mainstream linguistic, it seems to make sense those African people shared a common language further back in time ("Niger-Saharan" is already proposed by other linguists). They also share common ancestor genes like E-P2.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I hope you pay attention to the examples he provide for Proto-African terms you will note that most proto-African terms are*-vcv, *cvcv , and very little evidence of aspiration. After reviewing the proto-African terms cited in the text you may recognize my concern about oboli's Negro-Egyptian reconstructions.
I can't discuss much the validity of books I don't have. Just to make it clear, since it seems you're talking to me. I didn't read Mboli's book so I know almost nothing about his reconstruction. I also have some interrogations about the little I read about it. What I support is Obenga's Negro-Egyptian classification . What is proposed seems to be in line with other bio(genetic)-archeological line of evidence (E-P2,etc). It is also somewhat very close to the mainstream viewpoints about African languages classification. It only add a common ancestor language at the top of well known African language families. Considering all African languages families are said to have originated in the same approximate area in Eastern Africa by mainstream linguistic, it seems to make sense those African people shared a common language further back in time ("Niger-Saharan" is already proposed by other linguists). They also share common ancestor genes like E-P2.
Sorry, I thought you had said you had read the pages from Mboli's work at Google books.
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Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I hope you pay attention to the examples he provide for Proto-African terms you will note that most proto-African terms are*-vcv, *cvcv , and very little evidence of aspiration. After reviewing the proto-African terms cited in the text you may recognize my concern about oboli's Negro-Egyptian reconstructions.
I can't discuss much the validity of books I don't have. Just to make it clear, since it seems you're talking to me. I didn't read Mboli's book so I know almost nothing about his reconstruction. I also have some interrogations about the little I read about it. What I support is Obenga's Negro-Egyptian classification . What is proposed seems to be in line with other bio(genetic)-archeological line of evidence (E-P2,etc). It is also somewhat very close to the mainstream viewpoints about African languages classification. It only add a common ancestor language at the top of well known African language families. Considering all African languages families are said to have originated in the same approximate area in Eastern Africa by mainstream linguistic, it seems to make sense those African people shared a common language further back in time ("Niger-Saharan" is already proposed by other linguists). They also share common ancestor genes like E-P2.
Sorry, I thought you had said you had read the pages from Mboli's work at Google books.
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I've read some of it but it's only part of the book. What I support is Obenga's Negro-Egyptian classification. I also have some interrogations about Mboli's work.
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
To understand the work of Mboli, you have to understand the greater field of linguistics. Within the greater field of historical linguistics, it is the custom to establish the relationships via the comparative method, and then attempt to explain the relationship with a theory we call a "language phylum." The Africanist school, however, did not do this. They, using typological and surface circumstantial 'evidence', created the families 'first', then tried to find the evidence to support their conclusion.
This aspect of the Africanist school is what is being challenged here by Mboli. He goes after each so-called super-phylum and debunks these arbitrary families and shows the important weaknesses in the method used to come to their conclusions. For instance, pp 40-78 is spent on debunking Afro-Asiatic. You come to find out that not a single criteria pertaining to the very rigorous comparative method has been used by those linguists who argue for Afro-Asiatic: i.e., Ehret, Orel & Stobolva, Bomhart, etc.
What Mboli does, in reality, is harden the criteria as evidenced in his Chapter III: Méthode comparative et langues africaines………... What you often find are linguists in Africana comparing large lists of vocabulary words, but they never compare two languages fully, e.g., Egyptian and Arabic, in an extended and consistent way as required by the comparative method, even though they claim both languages are genetically related.
quote: Chapitre III. Méthode comparative et langues africaines………... 87 III.1 La méthode comparative et son emploi........................................ 88 III.2 Caractéristiques générales des langues africaines ........................ 92 III.3 Conditions d'application de la méthode comparative en Afrique.......................................................................................... 94 III.3.1 Emploi exclusif des seuls faits réellement attestés................... 95 III.3.2 Exclusion de tout élément dont l'étymologie ne peut être 6 établie à partir de la langue à laquelle il appartient................. 95 III.3.3 Étude approfondie de toutes les formes d'une racine............... 98
As it regards the syllabic structure of the Negro-Egyptienne languages, Mboli notes:
quote: L’établissement de cet arbre généalogique nous permet déjà de rendre compte de la dynamique et de la typologie des langues étudiées et même de toutes les langues négro-africaines telles qu’on les connaît actuellement. Tout d’abord on constate que les structures syllabiques de loin les plus fréquentes sont CV et CVC. Cette dernière est incontestablement liée à l’innovation à l’origine du dialecte beer, tandis que la première peut être le fait des deux dialectes. p. 444
As it regards the migrations of Negro-Egyptienne, Mboli demonstrates that there were two primary dialectical branches he calls BERE and BEER respectively. The following are two migration maps based on the research and it would generally agree with what you have been arguing.
I wish I had time to do a detailed analysis on this forum of Mboli's work. It's so extensive and covers a lot of ground. Get the book, learn French, apply the method and see for yourself. This is an African-Centered work of the highest quality and challenges every Eurocentric supposition in regards to the classification of African languages.
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I hope you pay attention to the examples he provide for Proto-African terms you will note that most proto-African terms are*-vcv, *cvcv , and very little evidence of aspiration. After reviewing the proto-African terms cited in the text you may recognize my concern about oboli's Negro-Egyptian reconstructions.
I can't discuss much the validity of books I don't have. Just to make it clear, since it seems you're talking to me. I didn't read Mboli's book so I know almost nothing about his reconstruction. I also have some interrogations about the little I read about it. What I support is Obenga's Negro-Egyptian classification . What is proposed seems to be in line with other bio(genetic)-archeological line of evidence (E-P2,etc). It is also somewhat very close to the mainstream viewpoints about African languages classification. It only add a common ancestor language at the top of well known African language families. Considering all African languages families are said to have originated in the same approximate area in Eastern Africa by mainstream linguistic, it seems to make sense those African people shared a common language further back in time ("Niger-Saharan" is already proposed by other linguists). They also share common ancestor genes like E-P2.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Move it up.
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Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Ancient DNA from the Kushite population in various era:
In the Neolithic, Meroitic (Kingdom) and Post-Meroitic era all the haplogroups collected from the Kushite individuals are from the African A(M13) and E(YAP) haplogroups. In the Christian Era, there's no more specimen from the A haplogroup and the Eurasian F (M89) haplogroup begin to appear. In the whole study, three individuals are from unknown haplogroups (probably from other African A and B haplogroups by the process of elimination).
The haplogroup A(M13) as well as various E haplogroups are often associated with modern Nilo-Saharan populations living in Sudan like the Dinka.
From Hassan(2009) Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Ancient DNA from the Kushite population in various era:
In the Neolithic, Meroitic (Kingdom) and Post-Meroitic era all the haplogroups collected from the Kushite individuals are from the African A(M13) and E(YAP) haplogroups. In the Christian Era, there's no more specimen from the A haplogroup and the Eurasian F (M89) haplogroup begin to appear. In the whole study, three individuals are from unknown haplogroups (probably from other African A and B haplogroups by the process of elimination).
The haplogroup A(M13) as well as various E haplogroups are often associated with modern Nilo-Saharan populations living in Sudan like the Dinka.
