posted
Hey guys, I'm a new member here, but I've been reading this forum for some time.
I have a question about the bust of King Narmer:
I’ve seen some people discount it as a 25th dynasty reproduction, and not from the Old Kingdom. Is there any truth to that claim? I always thought it was a lie, but I see it popping up and few people argue against it.
Even if it's not actually of Narmer himself, has this bust at least been accurately dated to the Old Kingdom?
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posted
The famous Egypologist Flinders Petrie bought the head in a shop and to the best of my knowledge did not write about the circumstances or exactly why he thought it may have been Narmer. I think a stone item like this, no wrting on it, not found near other artifacts or near possible organic matter in it's original location can't be dated accurately
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posted
Thanks. Yes it seems like the story behind Petrie finding or acquiring the head makes the authenticity kind of sketchy. I didn't hear he bought it from a shop, but from what I've read, he attributed it to Narmer without much evidence.
On a related note, are the figures, such as the following, of Old Kingdom rulers like Khufu proven to have been made in that early period? Posts: 100 | From: Canada | Registered: Oct 2013
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quote:Originally posted by blingdogg: Thanks. Yes it seems like the story behind Petrie finding or acquiring the head makes the authenticity kind of sketchy. I didn't hear he bought it from a shop, but from what I've read, he attributed it to Narmer without much evidence.
On a related note, are the figures, such as the following, of Old Kingdom rulers like Khufu proven to have been made in that early period?
as per that small Khufu statuette, Hawass wrote a paper stating they are not sure it's Khufu
posted
That Lady in the procession is the female Vizier or Prime minister of Narmer. Women had great power in ancient Egypt.
I think this head is Pharaoh Narmer head because it look like a West African black with round nose and big lips. The Old Kingdom Pharaohs look like West African. The New Kingdom Pharaohs look like East African
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I think this head is Pharaoh Narmer head because it look like a West African black with round nose and big lips. The Old Kingdom Pharaohs look like West African. The New Kingdom Pharaohs look like East African [/QB]
Show me a sculpture of any Old Kingdom Pharoah that doesn't have the nose broken off
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Show me a sculpture of any Old Kingdom Pharoah that doesn't have the nose broken off
It's already done in this thread by showing both the Narmer Bust and Palette, the subject of this thread. Anyway, what's the deal with you and the noses? Every African populations (like Ancient Egyptians, West Africans, East Africans, etc) have a wide range of noses types. Africans like Ancient Egyptians are composed of wide range of physical types. Mena is just being ridiculous with his female vizier stuff and African feature thingy (as most of his posts for that matter). Female pharaoh/king and vizier are actually rare in Ancient Egypt (and most African groups). In a traditional setting, even if women are viewed as equal, and, among other thing, can potentially become king/queen if no male succession exist, they are still ascribed certain role in the society (including leading some important deity shrines as priestess), while men are attributed other functions depending on the populations (like healer for example).
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb]Show me a sculpture of any Old Kingdom Pharoah that doesn't have the nose broken off
It's already done in this thread by showing both the Narmer Bust and Palette, the subject of this thread. Anyway, what's the deal with you and the noses?
he said that the Old Kingdom Pharoahs looked West African. Ok you got one, the Narmer Palette which is cartoonish but it could be West Afrtican. As I pointed out that famous stone head that might be Narmer is uncertain. So to make a general statement that OK Pharoahs look West African and NK Pharoahs look East African, thats what he said, he would have to begin with showing several OK Pharoahs. I say not with the nose broken off because that is one of the main features of the face.
Look at this for instance
you can't tell how he looked with the nose broken off
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posted
Thanks guys. Yes, that palette image of Narmer is a bit more ambiguous because it’s kind of cartoonish, but I guess that’s the most authentic depiction we have right now; I wish Petrie would have elaborated on how he acquired the figure-head. I mean, from what specific “shop” did he buy it, for example. That seems unknown.
Because now anyone can argue that it’s not Narmer, and there’s no legit counter to that. I’m personally going on Petrie’s word that it is in fact Narmer, since there’s no way to prove otherwise and so he should know best. It’s generally agreed that it’s Narmer, more-so than not, so I’ll stick to that.
As for the other pharaohs like Khufu, I’m going to read up on Hawass’ claim that that figurine may not be authentically Old Kingdom. Then I’ll get back to you.
Posts: 100 | From: Canada | Registered: Oct 2013
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Show me a sculpture of any Old Kingdom Pharoah that doesn't have the nose broken off
It's already done in this thread by showing both the Narmer Bust and Palette, the subject of this thread. Anyway, what's the deal with you and the noses? Every African populations (like Ancient Egyptians, West Africans, East Africans, etc) have a wide range of noses types. Africans like Ancient Egyptians are composed of wide range of physical types. Mena is just being ridiculous with his female vizier stuff and African feature thingy (as most of his posts for that matter). Female pharaoh/king and vizier are actually rare in Ancient Egypt (and most African groups). In a traditional setting, even if women are viewed as equal, and, among other thing, can potentially become king/queen if no male succession exist, they are still ascribed certain role in the society (including leading some important deity shrines as priestess), while men are attributed other functions depending on the populations (like healer for example).
I agree about the noses. Having a figure without the nose broken off gives a better assessment of their facial features, but like you said, not all Egyptians and African groups have the same type of nose or features.
And also, having a broken off nose doesn't stop you from seeing if that individual had stereotypical "black" features. I believe the statue Lioness posted has African features.... but of course many Egyptian portrayals are up to interpretation. Someone else could see it as non-African too.
Posts: 100 | From: Canada | Registered: Oct 2013
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quote:Originally posted by asante-Korton: Bling dogg ?? I smell another white guy pretending to be black
What a way to respond to a guy asking a legitimate question. So I’m white just because of this screen-name I chose? (FYI, ever heard of the Jamaican reggae singer Bling Dawg?)
You automatically know the personal history of any internet member by their screen-name? Get outta here with that nonsense. Yes, I'm a black man. Who cares.
Posts: 100 | From: Canada | Registered: Oct 2013
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Asante-Korton is right. blingdogg is more interested into repeating false internet rumors than anything else. Since he hasn't proven any of his sayings, there's nothing to disprove.
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posted
@Lioness: Yes I've seen most of those before, but thanks.
EDIT: I'll look at some scribe and priest pics though, didn't search for that.
@Amun-Ra: My goodness.... are you serious? Re-read my posts... Tell me where I "repeated false internet rumors". I explicitly said in my opening post that I think it's a lie that people call it a 25th dynasty fraud:
quote:Originally posted by blingdogg: I’ve seen some people discount it as a 25th dynasty reproduction, and not from the Old Kingdom. Is there any truth to that claim? I always thought it was a lie, but I see it popping up and few people argue against it.
I asked a question about a detailed history of the figure head, because in my internet searches I haven’t found an official statement documenting it as 100% Narmer, created during his time. I never said it’s not him, you guys are seriously distorting my words:
quote:Originally posted by blingdogg: I’m personally going on Petrie’s word that it is in fact Narmer, since there’s no way to prove otherwise and so he should know best. It’s generally agreed that it’s Narmer, more-so than not, so I’ll stick to that.
The fact that I don't blindly accept something means I'm a white troll? I’m white because I’m asking for proof about something and looking at both sides to an argument?
You guys need to stop being so eager to attack someone for no reason, and work on your reading skills.
Posts: 100 | From: Canada | Registered: Oct 2013
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And also, having a broken off nose doesn't stop you from seeing if that individual had stereotypical "black" features. I believe the statue Lioness posted has African features.... but of course many Egyptian portrayals are up to interpretation. Someone else could see it as non-African too. [/QB]
Of course there is a wide variety of noses in Africa. However if you want to talk about the sterotypical flat rounded nose obviously if the nose is broken off on a statue you can't tell if it's that type of nose
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Here's another book cover with short extract:
So we're talking about the colonisation of the Delta from the south. A delta which btw seems to have nice conditions (rivers) for occupation and agriculture (so outsiders would probably settle there first). It also mentions the climate change which brought, as we know, many African ethnic groups from the Sahara toward the Nile before that time, during the (re)-desertification of the Green Sahara.
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It should feel good to be yourself from time to time.
As for the quote, it's an obvious errata unless Wilkinson knows something everybody else don't know. I think the head was found in a 1st Dynasty tomb (to be verified).
In another more recent book (Egypt's Making), the caption says:
Figure 5.3 This limestone head of a ruler has been described as a portrait of King Narmer; it does bear some resemblance to Narmer depicted on the famous palette ascribed to him.
Sure there's nothing 100% certain in Ancient Egypt archeology (or archeology in general). But when you combine archeology, genetics (Ramses III= haplogroup E-M2/E1b1a, DNA Tribes/JAMA, DNA Tribes/BMJ, Beyoku's preview study), linguistics, history, geography, etc, knowledge and facts. You get a much better picture of the whole situation.
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quote:Originally posted by asante-Korton: Bling dogg ?? I smell another white guy pretending to be black
What a way to respond to a guy asking a legitimate question. So I’m white just because of this screen-name I chose? (FYI, ever heard of the Jamaican reggae singer Bling Dawg?)
You automatically know the personal history of any internet member by their screen-name? Get outta here with that nonsense. Yes, I'm a black man. Who cares.
yeah using the name blingdogg with a banana as your dp you must be a black man
Posts: 1064 | Registered: Jan 2011
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^^^ Wilkinson's caption says it's Second Dynasty, (Narmer is first dyn)
-another white dude trying to confuse things
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
-another white dude trying to confuse things
It should feel good to be yourself from time to time.
As for the quote, it's an obvious errata unless Wilkinson knows something everybody else don't know. I think the head was found in a 1st Dynasty tomb (to be verified).
In another more recent book (Egypt's Making), the caption says:
Figure 5.3 This limestone head of a ruler has been described as a portrait of King Narmer; it does bear some resemblance to Narmer depicted on the famous palette ascribed to him.
Sure there's nothing 100% certain in Ancient Egypt archeology (or archeology in general). But when you combine archeology, genetics (Ramses III= haplogroup E-M2/E1b1a, DNA Tribes/JAMA, DNA Tribes/BMJ, Beyoku's preview study), linguistics, history, geography, etc, knowledge and facts. You get a much better picture of the whole situation.
Yes I don’t get why Wilkinson would say it’s 2nd dynasty. I wonder if he made a mistake.
That book “Egypt’s Making” by Michael Rice seemed interesting so I got a copy of it online. I saw the caption you were talking about, Amun-Ra The Ultimate, and I agree there’s a resemblance. Scanning through the book, I found two other passages I thought interesting:
This one on the portrayal of Menkaure:
quote:“The distinctly African cast of the king’s features, like those of Khufu in the tiny ivory piece which was found at Abydos and of Net- jerykhet in his serdab statue, prompts the speculation whether the pyramid builders were not, after all, black Africans or that at least there was a strong African strain in their ancestry.... But the Giza kings of the Fourth Dynasty do share a notably African cast of feature.”
And this remark on the Badarians of early Egypt:
quote:“They also manufactured a very striking range of combs in ivory; the shape of these is distinctly African and is like the combs used even today by Africans and those of African descent.”
I agree, the evidence shows a black element in the Egyptians since pre-dynastic times. So it’s not surprising the Narmer head and palette look the way they do.
And even if the Narmer head isn't actually Narmer, it's similar to the palette and other Old Kingdom portrayals so that it at least represents an Old Kingdom ruler (ie. maybe Toby Wilkinson has proof it's 2nd dynasty). But the racist and ignorant people out there clearly have no basis to say that the head was made in the 25th dynasty.
Posts: 100 | From: Canada | Registered: Oct 2013
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quote:Originally posted by asante-Korton: Bling dogg ?? I smell another white guy pretending to be black
What a way to respond to a guy asking a legitimate question. So I’m white just because of this screen-name I chose? (FYI, ever heard of the Jamaican reggae singer Bling Dawg?)
You automatically know the personal history of any internet member by their screen-name? Get outta here with that nonsense. Yes, I'm a black man. Who cares.
yeah using the name blingdogg with a banana as your dp you must be a black man
Talk about being paranoid ..... Looks like the evil White Man really got to you. You’re thinking way too much on this.
I’ve used this screen name for years on internet forums. And you’re an idiot if you think a name like this can tell anyone what race someone is. And what does a banana have to do with anything? It looked funny so I chose it.
You’re insecure and need help, go see a doctor.
Posts: 100 | From: Canada | Registered: Oct 2013
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the features here aren't distinctly African. They might be African or they might not be African. Distinctly means "unique to"
The statue of the Pharaoh Menkaure (Mycerinus) and his Queen in the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, carved out of slate and dating to 2548-2530 BCE, Old Kingdom 4th Dynasty
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by mena7: That Lady in the procession is the female Vizier or Prime minister of Narmer. Women had great power in ancient Egypt.
I think this head is Pharaoh Narmer head because it look like a West African black with round nose and big lips. The Old Kingdom Pharaohs look like West African. The New Kingdom Pharaohs look like East African
Yeah, one thing I admire about a lot of African societies is the important role women had in society, often as rulers (like Hatshepsut).
But I don’t know about the West African and East African thing.... I mean there was a variety in features all throughout the different Kingdoms. Some people shared features with West or East Africans (and some did not), but it looks like this happened all throughout their history.
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posted
I'm thinking of a new avatar and screen name. I was thinking of using a basketball and my new name will be Sizzurp, what do you think?
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posted
lol yeah, I think Asante-Korton would let you in da club with that.
Good thing I didn’t choose the name Walter-White99 and a hockey stick for an avatar or the homeboys would’ve gone even more buckwild.
Posts: 100 | From: Canada | Registered: Oct 2013
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the features here aren't distinctly African. They might be African or they might not be African. Distinctly means "unique to"
The statue of the Pharaoh Menkaure (Mycerinus) and his Queen in the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, carved out of slate and dating to 2548-2530 BCE, Old Kingdom 4th Dynasty
The author didn't actually have a picture of the Menkaure statue he was referring to, so I posted that pic because it matched his description:
quote: presented not only as the ruler of the gods but as a man of great and vigorous physical beauty, is shown as it were coming out of the stone itself, supported by two divine companions. The king is depicted as smiling, almost as if welcoming the observer, his head lifted confidently, assured both of his divinity and his beauty.
But yeah, I can see how it’s not “distinct” black in the sense that others could have those features. Unlike others like the Narmer head or someone like Akhenaten or Amenhotep III with stronger features. The features of Egyptians are subjective and so I can’t disagree on that.
Posts: 100 | From: Canada | Registered: Oct 2013
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quote:Originally posted by blingdogg: But yeah, I can see how it’s not “distinct” black in the sense that others could have those features. Unlike others like the Narmer head or someone like Akhenaten or Amenhotep III with stronger features. The features of Egyptians are subjective and so I can’t disagree on that. [/QB]
The head looks stereotypically African however the head is also very very broad.
. the only thing stereotypic African about this Akenhaten statue are the lips. This head is the opposite of the thought to be Narmer head, it's very narrow. So Narrow by artistic stylization as to be not realistic
here are two other Akhenaten sculptures, small statues
this is thought to be Khufu, a very small quite worn statuette several inches high. Hawass wrote an article questioning it's provenance. Also very broad headed. Could the head thought to be Narmer actually be be 4th dyn Khufu? That will never be known. There is no evidence that indicates the provinance of the head thought by Petrie to be Narmer/Menes (ironically the same guy who held the Dynastic Race theory- how could that be?)
^^ maybe Petrie thought the head was Narmer just based on he thought it looked lokie the Narmer Palette figure.
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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^^ maybe Petrie thought the head was Narmer just based on he thought it looked lokie the Narmer Palette figure.
Again maybe not. I think Petrie must have good reasons to think identify the figure as Narmer. Why would he identify the figure as being Narmer otherwise? The reason why both the palette and the limestone head of Narmer looks like the same person is because they are actually the same person.
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: I think Petrie must have good reasons to think
In the early 20th century, Egyptologist Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie deduced that skeletal remains found at pre-dynastic sites at Naqada (Upper Egypt) indicated the presence of two different races, with the Dynastic Race, also referred to as the "Followers of Horus",[1] differentiated physically by a noticeably larger skeletal structure and cranial capacity.[2] Petrie concluded that the physical differences of the remains in conjunction with the previously unknown burials styles, uncharacteristic tomb architecture, and abundance of foreign artifacts inferred this race must have been an invading ruling elite that was responsible for the seemingly sudden rise of Egyptian civilization. Based on plentiful cultural evidence, such as architectural styles-most notably the distinctly Mesopotamian "niched-facade" architecture, pottery styles, cylinder seals and a few artworks, as well as numerous Predynastic rock and tomb paintings depicting Mesopotamian style boats, symbols, and figures, Petrie determined that the invader race had come from Mesopotamia, and imposed themselves on the native Badarian culture and became their rulers. This came to be called the “Dynastic Race Theory”[3][4] The theory further argued that the Mesopotamians then conquered both Upper and Lower Egypt and founded the First Dynasty. Predynastic and First Dynasty burial sites similar to Naqada were also found at Abydos, Sakkara, and Hieraconpolis
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posted
^^^ Not because somebody is wrong about some things, that he's wrong about everything. Your quote shows that Petrie was a scientific man, of course, making his analysis based on observations and arguments. So he probably didn't attribute the limestone artifact to Narmer without good reasons.
Anyway both the palette and the limestone head looks similar. So if Narmer truly looks like one or the other, then we know how he looks like (if he doesn't, then we don't know how he looks like).
Analyzing the origin of Ancient Egyptians is a much more complex issue than analyzing an artifact. Especially in that time and with their level of knowledge (about Ancient Egyptians) and technology. With advances in archeology, linguistic and new findings, as well as advances in DNA, the aDNA analysis of Ancient Egyptian mummies particularly, it gives us much better insights into the origin of Ancient Egyptians than Petrie who was just starting the development of Egyptology as a science. He didn't have the knowledge about the Ancient Egyptians and access to all the technology we have now.
Now with everything we know, the origin of Ancient Egyptians makes almost no doubt. New archeological findings and further aDNA analysis will probably go along the same line and further our knowledge of Ancient Egyptians and other ancient African societies.
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posted
its funny how the white boy picked the most "negroid" looking statues and asks if there fake or not
Posts: 1064 | Registered: Jan 2011
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quote:Originally posted by asante-Korton: its funny how the white boy picked the most "negroid" looking statues and asks if there fake or not
Cosigned,
What a King Is This: Narmer and the Concept of the Ruler Toby A. H. Wilkinson The Journal of Egyptian Archaeology Vol. 86, (2000), pp. 23-32 Published by: Egypt Exploration Society
posted
You people are a bunch of dumbasses. It’s unbelievable how you can twist someone’s words into something entirely different. I never claimed the Narmer head is fake because of black features.
I specifically said I saw people on the internet say it was made in the 25th dynasty, and asked you if they had any basis for that argument. I couldn’t understand what reason they could have to link it to that. From researching Old Kingdom history I’d never come across such a claim and came here to ask about it. Looks like I was wrong to assume people on this forum could look at something critically.
(Reading into the history of the palette I see it is also “thought to be Narmer”, same as the head, so I admit my mistake in saying the palette is more accurate than the head. I don’t know if that’s why you attacked me....)
Regardless, just because I’m looking at the opposite side to an argument doesn’t mean I’m on that side. And I asked about other Old Kingdom statues like Khufu because if those could be proven as authentic, then we could show that the Narmer head, with similar features, fits into that style and could without a doubt be an Old Kingdom production. If you had comprehension skills to read a post and see that I was asking for proof against a stupid claim that the head was made in the 25th dynasty you’d see I’m on your side, and was looking for facts, to put down those racists.
Instead you attack me and fail to see from the start that I never “questioned the most negroid looking statues”. I can’t believe how aggressive and blind you are, especially to a new member. I’m a fan of African history and Ancient Egypt, and joined this forum, hoping to join discussion with other people like myself who know its place in African history. No, I was wrong to come here and won’t waste my time any longer.
Posts: 100 | From: Canada | Registered: Oct 2013
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quote:Originally posted by asante-Korton: Bling dogg ?? I smell another white guy pretending to be black
He's not pretending to be black. He actually IS BLACK! He used that name on another site. Leave him alone. We NEED more members goddammit!
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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posted
come back dogg I was just kidding, don't worry anout assante he only posts once every two months. I'll take care of Amun Ra
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by blingdogg: Hey guys, I'm a new member here, but I've been reading this forum for some time.
I have a question about the bust of King Narmer:
I’ve seen some people discount it as a 25th dynasty reproduction, and not from the Old Kingdom. Is there any truth to that claim? I always thought it was a lie, but I see it popping up and few people argue against it.
Even if it's not actually of Narmer himself, has this bust at least been accurately dated to the Old Kingdom?
I don't know who these people are who discount it as being from the "25th dynasty". Whoever they are, they are obviously racist idiots since the ONLY people I've seen who make such claims come from racist retard websites like Stormfront. But to answer your question, virtually all Egyptologists from Petrie up to today acknowledge that the bust dates back to at least the first couple of dynasties if not earlier. Again these are not 'Afrocentric' claims but actual claims from the Egyptologists themselves.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Although as lioness points out there is a resemblance between Narmer depicted in his palette and the bust. I wouldn't be surprised that if not Narmer, then the bust depicts someone in his family.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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This bust of the Pharaoh Menkaura from Shenoc.com with round nose and round head look like a West African. It also look like Pharaoh Narmer head.
Pharaoh Narmer
Pharaoh Psammeticus (Shenoc.com) . Even one of the last Pharaoh of Egypt from the late kingdom look very black with round nose and large mouth.
Posts: 5374 | From: sepedat/sirius | Registered: Jul 2012
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quote:Originally posted by mena7: Hi Djehuti long time no post.
Yeah, well I've been busy these past several months. I was out of town at first but when I came back I had a lot of work, my laptop broke down and it's getting repaired so now I'm resorting to using my old desktop.
quote:... Even one of the last Pharaoh of Egypt from the late kingdom look very black with round nose and large mouth.
You really have to stay away from the stereotypical "black" or "negro" look via round face and round nose. I'm sure you know by know blacks of Africa come in a plethora of features. To focus on the stereotyped 'negro' look is what the white racists love to do so they can claim all those Egyptians (and other Africans) who don't conform to such a look as "caucasian" or "caucasian-mixed".
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Agreed...Thats is the main downfall for people supporting an African Ancient Egypt. They play the Eurocentrics game. Eurocentrics mostly focus on physical features, because thats ALL THEY HAVE...Like you said we already know Africans have a wide variety of looks. Especially Northeast Africans. And we do know that the Ancients also has a huge range of looks. but they were still African.
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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