posted
Thanks but can you pad the thread with a lil discussion too? Like, for instance, thoughts on its relationship to late Maurusian and incipient Capsian.
Swenet Member # 17303
posted
I'm not familiar with this marker, other than having researched it a bit in the past to verify its non-Capsian and non-Iberomaurusian origin. I'm tempted to link it to Proto (Chado-)Berber speakers, but that's about it. A related clade (L3e1) is found in Siwa Berbers, but it seems to have a totally different history (not highly specific to Northwest Africans and older), although Soares says its tagged to L3e5. Maybe there'll be more segues to useful information if you specify the larger context for why you're researching this lineage.
the lioness, Member # 17353
posted
Becoming Eloquent: advances in the emergence of language, human cognition ... edited by F. d' Errico, Jean Marie Hombert 2009
Published online 2004 February 10. PMCID: PMC1182259
The African Diaspora: Mitochondrial DNA and the Atlantic Slave Trade
Antonio Salas,1,2,3 Martin Richards,
L3A types in the Americas are, again, probably of largely western African provenance, with lesser west-central and southeastern African components. L3b and L3d mtDNAs are mainly western African, with a few types shared with eastern, southeastern (and occasionally southern, through interaction between Bantu-speaking and Khoisan-speaking groups), and (for L3b) west-central Africans. The same is true of L3e2, which includes one of the most common and widespread American mtDNA types with a number of derivatives observed only in America, as well as the much less frequent L3e4. One American L3e3 type is shared with the Bubi of Bioko but is more common in Mozambique, with a one-step derived type in the Angolan sample; thus, it most likely derives from west-central or southeastern Africa. Other L3e types are also found in Bioko and neighboring Săo Tomé, as well as in Angola and Mozambique. American L3e1 lineages, however, largely match southeastern Africans, implying a likely origin either there or somewhere on the west-central coast of Africa, between Cameroon and Angola.
The proportion of L3e in the Angolan sample is 14%, of which 5/6 are members of L3e1, the subclade that is also particularly frequent in Mozambique, where the frequency is similar (Salas et al. 2002). On the basis of the phylogeographic distribution (see fig. 9 of Salas et al. 2002), L3e2 appears to be more northern and to have spread into western Africa, where the derived subclade L3e2b predominates, possibly accounting for its greater prevalence in the Caribbean. The minor subclade L3e4 seems to have a similar distribution. The wide distribution of L3e1 and L3e3 is likely to be due mainly to Bantu dispersals (Salas et al. 2002). However, the 18th-century transfer of slaves from Mozambique and Angola to work in the sugar plantations of Săo Tomé and probably also Bioko (Iliffe 1995) and their subsequent transfer to the Americas may also help to account for the sharing of mtDNA types across this wide area.
Djehuti Member # 6698
posted
^ Leave it to the lyinass troll to muck up the conversation with DNATribes wack about largely Levantine genetic contribution with a touch of East Asian and then a whole bunch about the slave trade of blacks.
Tukuler Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
Maybe there'll be more segues to useful information if you specify the larger context for why you're researching this lineage.
That post by the returned itinerant Mazigh piqued query to African specific mtDNA and nrY associated with Capsian and possibly earlier Maurusian targets.
Also interested in Saharo-Sudanese Neolithic ties.
Tukuler Member # 19944
posted
Thanks for the Dujougon chapter from d'Errico.
Please, no non-scientific digest entries like DNAtribes.
Non-proprietary Replicable scientific references preferred alongside any members' personal analyses always welcome.
And remember the focus is L3e5.
Swenet Member # 17303
posted
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
Maybe there'll be more segues to useful information if you specify the larger context for why you're researching this lineage.
That post by the returned itinerant Mazigh piqued query to African specific mtDNA and nrY associated with Capsian and possibly earlier Maurusian targets.
Also interested in Saharo-Sudanese Neolithic ties.
Ah, I see.
Don't know to what extend you've been reading the recent threads and thread bumps in low profile, but you'll like this, no doubt, if you haven't already read it:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^Bro, check this out:
Wow. Just wow. Have we stumbled upon the elusive Neolithic E-M81 carrying Proto-Berber speakers?
xyyman Member # 13597
posted
L3e5?
Origin, frequency and migration route? Nothing to add.
But this may be fairly simple to do for someone who is familiar with the history and migration route of the different ethnic groups in Africa...more so North Africa. simple but tedious. '
1. Literature search showing frequency in ethnic groups 2. Overlay that on known migration routes
Djehuti Member # 6698
posted
Well I for one don't have any info to add on this topic. I will say that since this haplotype is associated with North Africa, I won't be surprised if folks try to identify it with 'Eurasians'. LOL
the lioness, Member # 17353
posted
In human mitochondrial genetics, Haplogroup L5 is a human mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroup. It was previously known as L1e.
An Introduction to Haplogroups: An Interactive ... - Tufts University
I would not call it a North African marker. It seems to be West African/Sahelian or Chad Basin
_________________________________________
The Fali people (called the Bana in Nigeria) are a small ethnic group of west and central Africa. The Fali are concentrated in mountainous areas of northern Cameroon, but some also live in northeastern Nigeria.The Fali are composed of four major groups, each corresponding to a geographic region: The Bossoum Fali, the Kangou Fali, the Peske–Bori Fali, and the Tingelin Fali. The Fali in Cameroon have been described as being centered around Garoua as well as the rocky plateaus and peaks of the Adamawa mountains in the country's north.[ The Fali are sometimes referred to as the Kirdi, meaning "pagan," a term given by the neighboring Muslim Fulani; the term Kirdi also describes up to 25 other cultures and was originally a pejorative, although some writers have reappropriated it.
The term Fali is from a Fula word meaning "perched," a reference to how Fali compounds appear on the sides of mountains.The Fali in Nigeria primarily live in the Mubi District, Mubi Division of the former Gongola State.
The Fali speak the Fali language, one of the Chad-Adamawa languages.
Haplogroup L3 descendants notwithstanding, the designation "haplogroup L" is typically used to designate the family of mtDNA clades that are most frequently found in Sub-Saharan Africa. However, all non-African haplogroups coalesce onto either haplogroup M or haplogroup N, and both these macrohaplogroups have simply evolved from haplogroup L3. Consequently, L in its broadest definition is really a paragroup containing all of modern humanity, and all human mitochondrial DNA from around the world are subclades of haplogroup L. Haplogroups M and N are sometimes referred to as haplogroups L3M and L3N respectively. Mitochondrial Eve is defined as the female human ancestor who is the most recent common ancestor of the most deep-rooted lineages of humanity: haplogroups L, L0 and L1-6.
An alternative theory maintains that to call mtDNA macrohaplogroup L a paragroup containing all of modern humanity, or to assert that the other macrohaplogroups M and N constitute subsets/subclades of L, is incorrect. Though M and N may have evolved from L, each macrohaplogroup—L, M, and N-- is definitively different, separate, and independent. In addition, the Haplogroup L Phylogeny diagram (below, right) errs in depicting macrohaplogroup M as a linear extension of haplogroup L3; M should instead be depicted (analogous to macrohaplogroup N) above and perpendicular to L3.
L lineages are relatively infrequent (1% or less) throughout Europe with the exception of Iberia where frequencies as high as 22% have been reported and some regions of Italy where frequencies as high as 2 to 3% have been found. According to a study in 2012 by Cerezo et al., about 65% of the European L lineages most likely arrived in rather recent historical times (Romanization period, Arab conquest of the Iberian Peninsula and Sicily, Atlantic slave trade) and about 35% of L mtDNAs form European-specific subclades, revealing that there was gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa toward Europe as early as 11,000 yr ago.
L5 is a small African haplogroup from East Africa. The highest frequency is in Mbuti Pygmies at 15%. It is present in relatively small frequencies in Tanzania (Sandawe and others), Kenya, Ethiopia, Sudan, Nubia, Egypt and Saudi Arabia
Djehuti Member # 6698
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,: An Introduction to Haplogroups: An Interactive ... - Tufts University
"I would not call it a North African marker. It seems to be West African/Sahelian or Chad Basin"
Are the above words I put quotes around, YOURS or those of an expert? Since according to Soares et al.: North Africa The scan of founder lineage variation (fig. 4 C) in North Africa indicates two peaks at 0.6 and at 6.6 ka. The data set for North Africa includes a high fraction of direct matches (nearly 20%) which contribute to the more recent peak, most likely reflecting movements into North Africa from Central/Eastern Africa within the last 1,000 years, perhaps including lineages carried with the trans-Saharan slave trade (Harich et al. 2010). We performed a founder analysis stipulating three migration times, including a third one of 35.0 ka, based on the ages of U6, L3k and the pop- ulation increase in the BSP (supplementary fig. S7, Supple- mentary Material online) with results presented in table 1. The biggest slice corresponds to the peak at 6.6 ka, corre- sponding to one-third of the L3 lineages (table 2), mainly affiliated to haplogroup L3e5, which is largely restricted to Northwest Africa. It dates to 12.4–13.6 ka and so may have begun earlier than 6.6 ka. The other major lineages contrib- uting to the 6.6 ka partition (Central African L3b, L3e1, and L3e2 lineages: founders F17, F28, and F41 in supplementary table S4, Supplementary Material online), suggest the post- glacial period was characterized by gene flow across the Sahel belt (Cerny ́et al. 2007); these founder clades are mainly restricted to Northwest Africa and absent from Egypt.
Even if northern Cameroon or the Chad Basin is the origin of this clade, what evidence do you have that it did not enter North Africa at an early date, even during the wet Holocene phase when the Sahara was verdant?
the lioness, Member # 17353
posted
quote:Originally posted by Djeshiti:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness
An Introduction to Haplogroups: An Interactive ... - Tufts University
"I would not call it a North African marker. It seems to be West African/Sahelian or Chad Basin"
Are the above words I put quotes around, YOURS or those of an expert? Since according to Soares et al.: North Africa The scan of founder lineage variation (fig. 4 C) in North Africa indicates two peaks at 0.6 and at 6.6 ka. The data set for North Africa includes a high fraction of direct matches (nearly 20%) which contribute to the more recent peak, most likely reflecting movements into North Africa from Central/Eastern Africa within the last 1,000 years, perhaps including lineages carried with the trans-Saharan slave trade (Harich et al. 2010). We performed a founder analysis stipulating three migration times, including a third one of 35.0 ka, based on the ages of U6, L3k and the pop- ulation increase in the BSP (supplementary fig. S7, Supple- mentary Material online) with results presented in table 1. The biggest slice corresponds to the peak at 6.6 ka, corre- sponding to one-third of the L3 lineages (table 2), mainly affiliated to haplogroup L3e5, which is largely restricted to Northwest Africa. It dates to 12.4–13.6 ka and so may have begun earlier than 6.6 ka.[ The other major lineages contrib- uting to the 6.6 ka partition (Central African L3b, L3e1, and L3e2 lineages: founders F17, F28, and F41 in supplementary table S4, Supplementary Material online), suggest the post- glacial period was characterized by gene flow across the Sahel belt (Cerny ́et al. 2007); these founder clades are mainly restricted to Northwest Africa and absent from Egypt.
Even if northern Cameroon or the Chad Basin is the origin of this clade, what evidence do you have that it did not enter North Africa at an early date, even during the wet Holocene phase when the Sahara was verdant? [/QB]
read your own shyt (see new bolded)
and after that go to the supplement
Djehuti Member # 6698
posted
^ LOL I can tell by the cussing you are pissed. My point was that the clade is found in Northwest Africa. When it got there is still a matter of debate. Yes according to Soares et al. it most likely happened within the last thousand years, but that's usually the suggestion for so-called 'Sub-Saharan' clades until further assessment of distribution and/or refinement of micro-satellite clusters within a clade.
Tukuler Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
L3e5?
Origin, frequency and migration route? Nothing to add.
But this may be fairly simple to do for someone who is familiar with the history and migration route of the different ethnic groups in Africa...more so North Africa. simple but tedious. '
1. Literature search showing frequency in ethnic groups 2. Overlay that on known migration routes
OK, so expand please. And don't forget diversity.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
In human mitochondrial genetics, Haplogroup L5 is a human mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroup. It was previously known as L1e.
An Introduction to Haplogroups: An Interactive ... - Tufts University
I would not call it a North African marker. It seems to be West African/Sahelian or Chad Basin
Too much extraneous non-L3e5 material.
Behar found L3e5 in Burkina Mossi and otherwise unknown Egyptian, Libyan, Ethiopian, and USA samples.
the lioness, Member # 17353
posted
Some people include Chad in North Africa
Therefore if you are using the definition of North Africa = Maghreb + Sahel then L3e5 is North African, two points for Al Tak
( If either or both terms "Maghreb" and "Sahel" is used it eliminates the vagueness of the term "North Africa", thus I think "North Africa" should be ceased in more precise discussions and noy using it eliminates semantic arguments over what is and what is not "North Africa" -sorry classicists. It even used in my quote below, hard to avoid in these articles. They should stop using it too in my opinion)
Ann Hum Genet. 2007 Jul;71(Pt 4):433-52. Epub 2007 Jan 18. A bidirectional corridor in the Sahel-Sudan belt and the distinctive features of the Chad Basin populations: a history revealed by the mitochondrial DNA genome. Cerný V, Salas A, Hájek M, Zaloudková M, Brdicka R.
Abstract The Chad Basin was sparsely inhabited during the Stone Age, and its continual settlement began with the Holocene. The role played by Lake Chad in the history and migration patterns of Africa is still unclear. We studied the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) variability in 448 individuals from 12 ethnically and/or economically (agricultural/pastoral) different populations from Cameroon, Chad, Niger and Nigeria. The data indicate the importance of this region as a corridor connecting East and West Africa; however, this bidirectional flow of people in the Sahel-Sudan Belt did not erase features peculiar to the original Chad Basin populations. A new sub-clade, L3f2, is described, which together with L3e5 is most probably autochthonous in the Chad Basin. The phylogeography of these two sub-haplogroups seems to indicate prehistoric expansion events in the Chad Basin around 28,950 and 11,400 Y.B.P., respectively. The distribution of L3f2 is virtually restricted to the Chad Basin alone, and in particular to Chadic speaking populations, while L3e5 shows evidence for diffusion into North Africa at about 7,100 Y.B.P. The absence of L3f2 and L3e5 in African-Americans, and the limited number of L-haplotypes shared between the Chad Basin populations and African-Americans, indicate the low contribution of the Chad region to the Atlantic slave trade
Tukuler Member # 19944
posted
This thread's title is a query. Unaware of L3e5 until last week when I read it was restricted to North Africa. But thanks to this thread that statement appears false. So far it more likely seems a Tschad basin marker of Saharo-Sudanese neolithic provenance not Capsian much less Maurusian.
My definition of North Africa is geo-cultural and includes the littoral from the Maghreb al Aqsa to far west Egypt; the Tell, Atlas, and the pre-Sahara; the Sahara down to ~17° N lattitude. The major peoples it includes are "Berbers," Tibbu, "Arabs," Kel Tamasheq, Maurs, and some Soninke among others.
I exclude the Nile Valley corridor and the Sahel/"Sudan."
Thanks for saving me the effort of posting the below abstract. I'll just add a bit of hi-liting I'd've included.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Some people include Chad in North Africa
Therefore if you are using the definition of North Africa = Maghreb + Sahel then L3e5 is North African, two points for Al Tak
( If either or both terms "Maghreb" and "Sahel" is used it eliminates the vagueness of the term "North Africa", thus I think "North Africa" should be ceased in more precise discussions and noy using it eliminates semantic arguments over what is and what is not "North Africa" -sorry classicists. It even used in my quote below, hard to avoid in these articles. They should stop using it too in my opinion)
Ann Hum Genet. 2007 Jul;71(Pt 4):433-52. Epub 2007 Jan 18. A bidirectional corridor in the Sahel-Sudan belt and the distinctive features of the Chad Basin populations: a history revealed by the mitochondrial DNA genome. Cerný V, Salas A, Hájek M, Zaloudková M, Brdicka R.
Abstract The Chad Basin was sparsely inhabited during the Stone Age, and its continual settlement began with the Holocene. The role played by Lake Chad in the history and migration patterns of Africa is still unclear. We studied the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) variability in 448 individuals from 12 ethnically and/or economically (agricultural/pastoral) different populations from Cameroon, Chad, Niger and Nigeria. The data indicate the importance of this region as a corridor connecting East and West Africa; however, this bidirectional flow of people in the Sahel-Sudan Belt did not erase features peculiar to the original Chad Basin populations. A new sub-clade, L3f2, is described, which together with L3e5 is most probably autochthonous in the Chad Basin. The phylogeography of these two sub-haplogroups seems to indicate prehistoric expansion events in the Chad Basin around 28,950 and 11,400 Y.B.P., respectively. The distribution of L3f2 is virtually restricted to the Chad Basin alone, and in particular to Chadic speaking populations, while L3e5 shows evidence for diffusion into North Africa at about 7,100 Y.B.P. The absence of L3f2 and L3e5 in African-Americans, and the limited number of L-haplotypes shared between the Chad Basin populations and African-Americans, indicate the low contribution of the Chad region to the Atlantic slave trade
posted 
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