the human race is so arranged that its practices and features vary: nations are fashioned with their own particular complexion; ____________________
.....The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it it a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone. The Sun-God dries up with dust the tribes of Africans amid their desert lands; the Moors derive their name from their faces, and their identity is proclaimed by the colour of their skins.
B|tch didn't you start a thread on this very topic before??! You might as well have bumped the older thread up. Not that it would make a difference since we can just debunk your lyinass here like we did in there. It's just a waste of bandspace.
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this complete English translation of the lines in question was not available for free on the internet until this thread. The older thread did not have this full translation. No commentary necessary people can read the whole segment and judge for themsleves
For this reason the human race is so arranged that its practices and features vary: nations are fashioned with their own particular complexions; and each stamps with a character of it's own like nature and anatomy of the human body which all share. Germany, towering high with tall off-spring, is blond: Gaul is tinged to a less degree with a near related redness; hardier Spain breeds close knit, sturdy limbs. The Father of the city endows the Romans with the features of Mars, and Venus joining the War-God fashions them with well-proportioned limbs. Quick witted Greece proclaims in the tanned faces of it's people the gymnasium and the manly wrestling schools. Curly hair about the temples betrays the Syrian. The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it it a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone. The Sun-God dries up with dust the tribes of Africans amid their desert lands; the Moors derive their name from their faces, and their identity is proclaimed by the colour of their skins.Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Manilius is another ancient historian like Herodotus, Aristotle, Heliodore, Diodorus Sicilus, Strabon, Lycinus, Appolodore, Eschyle, Achille Tatius, Ammien Marcelin, Diogene Laerce to described the Ancient Egyptian aka Kamite as Black African people.Because of those ancient testimonies the USA schools, colleges, universities, movies industry, publishing industry, TV documentaries should describes and portrait the Egyptian as black peoples in their books, classrooms, movies, documentaries etc.If they dont do it despite the overwhelming evidences they are racist.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
the Lioness didn't post to bump the previous thread because not wanting all to see the logic behind the interpretations given there.
At least the Lioness has finally accessed the Loeb.
Now clearly, despite previous statements to the same, the Lioness can see the cosmic significance re Manilius' two sided major grouping of nations per colour.
Do note that Goold could not avoid inserting interpretation wording into the translation that does not appear in the Latin original. This is unavoidable when translating otherwise meaning is lost.
However, Goold deliberately hid the meaning of Mauros in his footnote. Even today the word means black in Greek.
μαύρος
noun μαύρος => black, raven, Negro, nigger αράπης => nigger, black, Arab, Negro Νέγρος => Negro, nigger, black
adjective μαύρος => black, colored, sable, pitchy, coloured σκοτεινός => dark, obscure, dingy, murky, shady, black μαυρισμένος => black άσχημος => ugly, nasty, unsightly, seamy, homely, black άγριος => wild, feral, fierce, savage, ferocious, black δυσοίωνος => sinister, ominous, inauspicious, portentous, pessimistic, black
Now clearly, despite previous statements to the same, the Lioness can see the cosmic significance re Manilius' two sided major grouping of nations per colour. [/QB]
Manilus says Ethiopians are burnt toned. He says Indians are less 'burnt" He says Egyptians are "medium tone" more "mild" in tone and Mauri are lighter than that
I don't see any cosmic significance. As per Egyptians we already knew by looking at thousands of pieces of their art that many of them are portrayed as medium toned. The quote stated what was already obvious
lioness productions 2013
p.s. check out my Afrocentric post at Forum Biodoversity
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
The book is Astronomica and you see no cosmic significance? The forms and colours of peoples of the human race are due to the Zodiac's influence. This is clear from the phrase "For this reason..."
Stop being obtuse it ill becomes you.
Mauretanians at the end of the "dark" listing are noted as being self-named by the colour of their skin μαύρος i.e., black, and they were the lightest of the darks.
There's no escaping it and you can't cover it up.
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: The book is Astronomica and you see no cosmic significance? The forms and colours of peoples of the human race are due to the Zodiac's influence. This is clear from the phrase "For this reason..."
Stop being obtuse it ill becomes you.
Mauretanians at the end of the "dark" listing are noted as being self-named by the colour of their skin μαύρος i.e., black, and they were the lightest of the darks.
There's no escaping it and you can't cover it up.
You are correct there is no escaping it. Below examples of 'darks' as you call them or 'blacks' people of 'medium tone' as Manilius described the Egyptians
the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it it a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone.
As we see Will Smith is slightly lighter, he might correspond to the people Manilius described as lighter in skin complexion than the "medium tone" Egyptians, the 'Moors' or Mauri
(Credit to Doug for Black Korean)
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Typical Lyinass tactic. When words fail her-- as they usually do-- she tries to spin using picture spam.
Note that she does not answer any of the valid points Tukuler raised, which were only a few.
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"Another frequent misconception in some discussions of the populations of the ancient world is the assumption that words or expressions describing people as dark--or black--skinned were always in classical usage the equivalents of "Ethiopians" i.e. Negroes, or, in twentieth century usage, blacks. Greeks and Romans, well acquainted with their contemporaries, differentiated between the various gradations of color in Mediterranean populations and made it clear that only some of the black- or dark-skinned peoples, those coming from the south of Egypt and the southern fringes of northwest Africa, were Ethiopians, i.e. Negroes. Ethiopians, known as the blackest peoples on earth, became the yardstick by which classical authors measured the color of others. In first century AD, Manilius described Ethiopians as the blackest; Indians, less sunburnt; Egyptians, mildly dark; with Moors the lightest in this color scheme. In other words, to all these peoples--Ethiopians, Indians, Egyptians, and Moors--who were darker than the Greeks and Romans, classical authors applied color-words but it should be emphasized that in general the ancients described only one of these--Ethiopians--as unmistakably Negroid. To summarize this point, there is no justification to equate Egyptians, Moors or any other north Africans, with Ethiopians, even when a color-word is applied to them, unless details are given as to other physical traits such as color, hair, nose, or lips, or unless there is additional evidence to support an equivalence with Ethiopian."
Frank M. Snowden, Jr. Professor Emeritus, Department of Classics Howard University
posted
[quote]You are correct there is no escaping it. Below examples of 'darks' as you call them or 'blacks' people of 'medium tone' as Manilius described the Egyptians[quote]
Manilius was Roman and lived in the Roman era. Did he ever travel to Egypt? Hegel, the German philosopher never traveled to Africa yet he wrote about Africa as if he were there. So question again: Did Manilius ever travel to Egypt and Kush?
Ammianus Marcellinus--also a Roman-- wrote: "Aegypti plerique[most] subfusculus[ below(sub), fusculus(dark)] et atrati[wearers of dark clothing].
At that time Egypt has already been colonised by the Greeks who settled in Northern Egypt and set up the city of Alexandria. Then the Romans came and intermingled with the Northerners many of whom were West Asian settlers from Persian and other places. In fact, at that time Egypt had long had its name changed from KMT to Egypt. The Greeks controlled Egypt under the Ptolemies for some 300 years then the Romans took over for another 600 years.
So let's go back to an eyewitness from before Roman times, Herodotus. His observations were up close hence more authentic. Unless Manilius had traveled to Egypt his claims are less credible than those of Herodotus. He was most likely referring the people who lived in Alexandria and the Mediterranean litoral.
But again, the best evidence is how the AEs portrayed themselves. And the sly ones keep averting their eyes. The Amarna realistic[that was the age of Egyptian artistic realism] busts of Akhenaten and his family is there for all to see. The artists painted them in the generic African mahagony brown. which covers about 50% of Africa's population. The other 50%, the darker portion is found in places like Sudan, Senegambia, much of the South Sahel area, etc.
And again, the AEs set up a 4 part colour scheme for themselves and other populations they knew. They portrayed themselves as mahogony brown, those in the Southern desert[today's South Sudanese] as dark/black, those from West Asia as heavily bearded with very fair/olive complexioned, and those from Europe proper as very fair and even pink in complexion.
Manilius's point about climate and complexion is interesting because in Southern Africa individuals with the same brown colour as Mandela and his wife Graca Machel are normal. In fact, when there were xenophobic riots in South Africa in 2008 people who were seen as "too dark to be South African" were singled out for beatings and other crimes. Ironically, that included some bona fide South Africans too.
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Snowden was perceived as a brainwashed mulatto by students at Howard University in the U.S. where he taught classics for many years. The story is that he was overjoyed when his daughter married an Italian.
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posted
Again, the national biography of Manilius--according to Wikipedia--is uncertain. He is not cited by any of the known Roman writers but is assumed to have lived during the era of Augustus and Tiberius.
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posted
That translation from Manilius is problematic in parts.
Consider: "Aethiopes maculant orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes".
The meaning of this is that Aethiopians--i.e. Africans who live far away from Roman Egypt--live in world unknown to others--i.e. in a world of darkness.
The Latin verb "maculo--maculare" also means to taint, or to spot. Thus the proper translation is something like: "The Ethiopians taint the world because they live in an [unknown] world--a dark world.
I say this because "tenebris" is a term the Romans used to describe skin colour. "Tenebris" can refer either to night-time or a dark place like the interior of a cave. For dark skin colour Latin uses "fusculus"(dark) or "sub-fusculus"(very dark).
"Populos" does not translate into the Eurocentric "tribe" at all. "Populos" means "people". The Latin word for "tribe" is "tribus".
We bear in mind too that Manilius was writing about Roman Egypt--not KMT.
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Correction above: "I say this because 'tenebris' is NOT a term the Romans used to describe skin colour. Tenebris is a word about the environment not people.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
To each his own but ...
Wiki is just another opinion.
All words have other than primary meaning and double that when poetry's involved.
Stain's not necessarily derogatory. To beautify a wood product stain it.
Snowden and alternate meanings and a word for word "translation" and two interprative translations of the text are covered in the old thread.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Typical Lyin' Arse distraction totally unrelated to the topic. So I'll repost this ode to the wench which despite my hiatus I should've known better.
quote:Originally posted 17 February, 2012 08:20 PM by Tukuler:
Education was given to all and rejected by Snaky.
There is no reasoning with a Lyin' Ass reptile for whom questions are nothing but a pretense.
Let all who would enter into dialog be ware all your effort will eventually be met with inanity!
On her way to work one morning Down the path along side the lake A tender hearted woman saw a poor half frozen snake His pretty colored skin had been all frosted with the dew "Poor thing," she cried, "I'll take you in and I'll take care of you"
"Take me in tender woman Take me in, for heaven's sake Take me in, tender woman," sighed the snake
She wrapped him all cozy in a comforter of silk And laid him by her fireside with some honey and some milk She hurried home from work that night and soon as she arrived She found that pretty snake she'd taken to had revived
"Take me in, tender woman Take me in, for heaven's sake Take me in, tender woman," sighed the snake
She clutched him to her bosom, "You're so beautiful," she cried "But if I hadn't brought you in by now you might have died" She stroked his pretty skin again and kissed and held him tight Instead of saying thanks, the snake gave her a vicious bite
"Take me in, tender woman Take me in, for heaven's sake Take me in, tender woman," sighed the snake
"I saved you," cried the woman "And you've bitten me, but why? You know your bite is poisonous and now I'm going to die" "Oh shut up, silly woman," said the reptile with a grin "You knew damn well I was a snake before you took me in
"Take me in, tender woman Take me in, for heaven's sake Take me in, tender woman," sighed the snake
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: The book is Astronomica and you see no cosmic significance? The forms and colours of peoples of the human race are due to the Zodiac's influence. This is clear from the phrase "For this reason..."
Stop being obtuse it ill becomes you.
Mauretanians at the end of the "dark" listing are noted as being self-named by the colour of their skin μαύρος i.e., black, and they were the lightest of the darks.
There's no escaping it and you can't cover it up.
You are correct there is no escaping it. Below examples of 'darks' as you call them or 'blacks' people of 'medium tone' as Manilius described the Egyptians
the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it it a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone.
As we see Will Smith is slightly lighter, he might correspond to the people Manilius described as lighter in skin complexion than the "medium tone" Egyptians, the 'Moors' or Mauri
(Credit to Doug for Black Korean)
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posted
Mike what is your opinion on classical writer and astrologer Manilius describing the Germania, Gallia, Hispania,Romania, Graecia, Syria as white.Manilius describing the European as white go against your theory and Egmond theory of a black European population later genocided and shipped to slavery in America by white people.
Proff Frank M Snowden book black in Antiquity have the most beautiful pictures of Ancient black Ethiopian, black Egyptian, black Greek, black Roman and black West Asian.Unfortunately Snowden described the Egyptian as being non black and the black Roman and Greek as being Ethiopian.
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: [QB] [quote]You are correct there is no escaping it. Below examples of 'darks' as you call them or 'blacks' people of 'medium tone' as Manilius described the Egyptians[quote]
Manilius was Roman and lived in the Roman era. Did he ever travel to Egypt?
When the senate called a meeting to consider the matter, Scipio Nasica advised receiving the Carthaginian embassy and making a truce with them, but Marcus Cato declared that no truce ought to be made nor the declaration of war rescinded. Nevertheless, the senators listened to the entreaties of the envoys, promised to grant them a truce, and demanded hostages for the fulfilment of the conditions. These hostages were sent to Sicily, and Lucius Marcius and Marcus Manilius went there, took charge of them, and sent them on to Rome, while they themselves made haste to reach Africa. After encamping they summoned the magistrates of Carthage to appear before them.
Casssius Dio Book XXI
quote:Originally posted by lamin:
But again, the best evidence is how the AEs portrayed themselves. And the sly ones keep averting their eyes. The Amarna realistic[that was the age of Egyptian artistic realism] busts of Akhenaten and his family is there for all to see. The artists painted them in the generic African mahagony brown. which covers about 50% of Africa's population. The other 50%, the darker portion is found in places like Sudan, Senegambia, much of the South Sahel area, etc.
Ramesses II Relief Brooklyn Museum
Tutamkhamun, wooden bust, black background
Above, the "medium tone" as described by Manilius He said the Moors or Mauritanians were a bit lighter than this and the Indians were a bit blacker
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posted
Yes, the medium tone is mahogony brown. No doubt, you are one of the sly ones because you didn't jump to post that exquisite bust of Akhenaten's daughter--"Amarna Princess". LOL.
And you keep denying your post re the Moors. A footnote clarified things for you saying that the Moors--i.e. the Mauri were dark. Now, I will say its slowly: "Dark--is--not--light".
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posted
I queried whether Manilius ever traveled to Egypt. You answered by dredging up some comment whereby he assumedly traveled to Africa. But where? Was it Egypt or not?
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: I queried whether Manilius ever traveled to Egypt. You answered by dredging up some comment whereby he assumedly traveled to Africa. But where? Was it Egypt or not?
Egypt is enroute to Carthage but what does it matter at this point?He said the Egyptians were medium tone. I put up artifacts showing that medium tone. You confirmed " Yes, the medium tone is mahogony brown" So what is your point?
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posted
The reliability of Herodotus is particularly criticized when writing about Egypt. Alan B. Lloyd author of 'Herodotus' states that as a historical document, the writings of Herodotus are seriously defective, and that he was working from "inadequate sources". Nielsen, author of The Tragedy in History: Herodotus and the Deuteronomistic History,writes that: "Though we cannot entirely rule out the possibility of Herodotus having been in Egypt, it must be said that his narrative bears little witness to it."Fehling states that Herodotus never traveled up the Nile River, and that almost everything he says about Egypt and Ethiopia is doubtful. About the claim of Herodotus that the Pharaoh Sesostris campaigned in Europe, and that he left a colony in Colchia, Fehling states that "there is not the slightest bit of history behind the whole story". Fehling concludes that the works of Herodotus are intended as fiction. Depew and Obbink concur that much of the content of the works of Herodotus are literary devices. Although the factual accuracy of the works of Herodotus is defended by some,] others regard his works as being unreliable as historical sources. Fehling writes of "a problem recognized by everybody", namely that much of what Herodotus tells us cannot be taken at face value.
The accuracy of the works of Herodotus have been criticized since his own era. Sparks writes that "In antiquity, Herodotus had acquired the reputation of being unreliable, biased, parsimonious in his praise of heroes, and mendacious". His ancient critics included Cicero, Aristotle, Josephus and Plutarch.Cicero said the works of Herodotus were full of legends or “fables”, and Harpocration wrote a book on "the lies of Herodotus". Duris of Samos called Herodotus a myth-monger.Voltaire described Herodotus as both "the father of history" and the "father of lies", and Hartog more recently also called him "The father of all liars".
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posted
Same old BS. Alex Haley was accused of plagiarism and fabricating the Kunta Kinte story, ergo the transportation of Africans from the Gambia to the U.S. didn't really occur.
Grow a brain and learn to think critically instead of just spamming, cutting and pasting.
Herodotus may be wrong on some things--as those who just dislike his observations that the AEs were African blacks, claim--as if the massive Sphinx and thousands of murals don't calmly make the same point. Even a mad man runs for shelter when it's raining. Herodotus saw the Egyptians and Ethiopians(Nubians) and noted their blackness. Nothing strange about blacks being in Africa.
But, as Diop pointed out, many are peeved that Herodotus should write that sort of thing. So the racist strategy kicks in: claim that Herodotus is a liar and fabricator. Bring in also Greek writers who criticised his works, as if that would mean anything re the real authenticity of his observations.
In the end only the gullible and the racists will doubt what Herodotus claimed about the Egyptians. LOL. It hasn't worked, and it can't work.
But not just Herodotus. Aristotle, Lucian, and a host of other Greeks all noted that the AEs were Africans and were close kin with the Kushites/Nubians. Confirmed much later by the man who deciphered the Rosetta Stone. Jean-Francois Champollion.
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Western Academia is saying Herodotus is unreliable because he described the Egyptian and Colchian as having black skin, wooly hair, and large mouth.Western Academia want the Egyptian to be white or semite/mulato/metis.Herodotus was reliable on Egypt because 11 ancient historians described the Egyptian as being a black skin people with wooly hair.Those historians are Aristotle, Herodotus, Heliodore, Diodorus Sicilus, Strabon, Lucian the navigator, Apollodore,Eschyle, Achille Tatius, Ammien Marcellin, Diogene Laerce.
Some Egyptian had dark black skin, other Egyptian had brown skin.Egypt was made up of different African tribes.Different tribes rule at different period in Egyptian history.Predynastic AEgypt was ruled by the brown skin Twa/Anu people.The old kingdom and middle kingdom was ruled by dark black skin tribes like Ibo,Yoruba, Akan, Kongo, Mande etc.For exemple the statues of Khufu, Uni,Mentuhotep I and Amenemhet III.The new kingdom of Egypt was ruled by brown skin African like the Amhara, Tigre, Somalian, Oromo,Fulani etc.Exemple the statues of Ramses II,Tuthmosis III, Hatshepsut etc.
The tribes of lower Egypt had brown skin,the tribes of upper Egypt had black skin during the time of Roman occupation.
posted
The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it it a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone. The Sun-God dries up with dust the tribes of Africans amid their desert lands; the Moors derive their name from their faces, and their identity is proclaimed by the colour of their skins. - Manilius Astronomica Book IV
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Yes, the medium tone is mahogony brown.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Goold adds words that aren't there and leaves out words that are there in lines 725 - 727. Try lining up his translation as is mine and see for yourself.
Looking at the Latin and keeping to its punctuation Egyptians have bodies of graduating darkness like the Nile irrigates the fields.
My interpretation of that is just as inundation moves from south to north darkening the fields so Egyptian colour is darkest in the south gradually getting less dark heading toward the delta. (Of course the silt is darkest next to the Nile and less dark as the field stretches away from the Nile but the river moved the silt up from Abyssinia.)
Once at the delta the middle zone (Mediterranean) is reached. It's this middle which moderates tones.
code:
tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis the earth inundate Egypt Nile gradual irrigated darkens bodies field
Egypt's Nile inundates the earth, darkens bodies in grades, like the irrigated field
code:
iam propior mediumque facit moderata tenorem. now nearer the middle produce observing moderate tenor
now nearer the middle which produces a tone observing moderation.
After now at the middle --delta Egypt on the Mediterranean-- Manilius goes on to Afrorum and Mauretania which both have Mediterranean borders.
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In Manilius' order black complexions from the most dark to the least dark are - Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
Snowden and others do not indicate an intent that 'Afrorum" are a separate category from Mauritanians, that the Mauritanians are Afrorum. If Afrorum is separate from Mauretanians who are they?
____________________________________
next point:
In the quote at the top of this post you say that Manilius orders black complexions from the most dark to the least dark
But below you claim that he stopped doing that in the middle to say that Egyptians not one of the steps in the order, they are graded unto themsleves and therefore not part of the overall gradation, Ethiopians, Indians and so on, they are not of the order, they have all tones:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
My interpretation of that is just as inundation moves from south to north darkening the fields so Egyptian colour is darkest in the south gradually getting less dark heading toward the delta. (Of course the silt is darkest next to the Nile and less dark as the field stretches away from the Nile but the river moved the silt up from Abyssinia.)
Once at the delta the middle zone (Mediterranean) is reached. It's this middle which moderates tones.
code:
tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis the earth inundate Egypt Nile gradual irrigated darkens bodies field
Egypt's Nile inundates the earth, darkens bodies in grades, like the irrigated field
code:
iam propior mediumque facit moderata tenorem. now nearer the middle produce observing moderate tenor
now nearer the middle which produces a tone observing moderation.
After now at the middle --delta Egypt on the Mediterranean-- Manilius goes on to Afrorum and Mauretania which both have Mediterranean borders. [/QB]
what you are saying doesn't make sense. If he was breaking the pattern of gradation to side bar that the Egyptians have all tones he would not concluded the thought> " nearer the middle which produces a tone observing moderation"
If he was pointing to a range he would not conclude the thought pointing to just the middle tone. It is stretching to ignore that. The poetic language of the first part of the thought is unclear. It is made clear by the conclusion of the thought Egyptians are "the middle which produces a tone observing moderation". And after arriving at the middle tone we proceed to the next step Moors (blacks) and you say it's even two steps further than the Egyptians who you say are followed by "Afrorum". So 'black" in this sense, "Moor" is one to two steps lighter than "the middle" .
But we don't need Manilius we have thosands of artworks and as in the examples I gave many of them have a medium tone.
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Snowden knew what he was talking about. He rejected Afrolunacy. His work shows with many sources that Egyptians are never described as Negroid or "Black" by the ancient Greeks, but instead are portrayed as lighter skinned, with wavy hair (not woolly).
"Among the most blatant examples of methodological weakness is the claim that the inhabitants of Africa in antiquity were pre dominantly black?a claim not supported by linguistic, archaeological, or historical evidence. Afrocentrists have assumed that the word "African" and color adjectives used by ancient writers were always the equivalents of words such as "Negroes" and "blacks" in twentieth-century usage. The only Greek or Latin word, and I emphasize only, that most frequently referred to a black or Negroid type from the sixth century BC onward is Aithiops or Aethiops (Ethiopian), literally a person with a burnt face. These Negroid peoples, who exhibited various shades of pigmentation and whose facial features encompassed a variety of types, came from either the south of Egypt (Kush, Ethiopia, Nubia) or the interior of northwest Africa. Ancient sources also differentiate clearly between people who lived along the coastal areas of northwest Africa (i.e., modern Libya to Morocco) and those who inhabited the interior. "Aethiops," it should be emphasized, with few exceptions, was applied neither to Egyptians nor to inhabitants of northwest Africa, such as Moors, Numidians, or Carthaginians.
"As to the physical characteristics of the ancient Egyptians, both iconographie and written evidence differentiated between the physical traits of Egyptians and the populations south of Egypt. The art of ancient Egypt frequently painted Egyptian men as reddish brown, women as yellow, and people to the south as black... [A]s the Egyptologist David O'Connor has pointed out, "Thousands of sculpted and painted representatives from Egypt as well as hundreds of well preserved bodies from its cemeteries [n]show that the typical physical type was neither Negro nor Negroid."[/b]
Misconceptions about African Blacks in the Ancient Mediterranean World: Specialists and Afrocentrists Frank M. Snowden Jr. Arion: A Journal of Humanities and the Classics Third Series, Vol. 4, No. 3 (Winter, 1997) (pp. 28-50)
posted
^ LOL @ "some". It is a FACT pointed out by Ausar that MANY Egyptians, particularly those in the north in the Delta area had kinky hair. Wavy hair is actually more common in the south, but the Delta is the area the Greco-Romans were most familiar with.
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,: The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of** Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it it a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone.** The Sun-God dries up with dust the tribes of Africans amid their desert lands; the Moors derive their name from their faces, and their identity is proclaimed by the colour of their skins. - Manilius Astronomica Book IV
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Yes, the medium tone is mahogony brown.
An even better photo of Tut's bust.
Of course the Lyinass would paint a smaller more obscure version but oh well.
Tut and his wife's throne image.
Also, as Tukuler pointed out the Egyptians' medium tone is NOT medium among all the populations listed but medium ONLY among the dark/black races of people.
Thus from darkest to lightest among the black peoples:
^ Note Egyptians are smack in between with two peoples darker and two peoples lighter. The Afori and Moors inhabit the Maghreb which are at a higher latitude than Egypt and are actually closer to Romans geographically.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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DJ asshole, if I put up examples of a medium skin tone what it's in relation to doesn't matter we are looking at it, it's self explanatory dimwit -it does not effect the example which clarifies
and "Mauri' "Moor", "black" is one to two discernable steps lighter than this according to Manilius
The Latin has been shown An English translation by a scholar has been shown Literal word for word translation has been shown
Your interpretation does not need to be added you may leave now
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
^ LMAOH But of course it matters you dumbass! Words like 'medium' are relative terms that depend on context! One cannot use such terms without specifying the exact context! The TRUTH (which you so desperately try to deny) is that the Egyptians are medium tone among BLACK peoples. Note that the examples of Egyptians you provide all have a milk chocolate type of complexion. That there are people one or two grades lighter than this does NOT change the fact that they are still dark/black compared to Romans like Manilius himself who makes this observation, twit. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ LMAOH Words like 'medium' are relative terms that depend on context! One cannot use such terms without specifying the exact context! The TRUTH (which you so desperately try to deny) is that the Egyptians are medium tone among BLACK peoples. Note that the examples of Egyptians you provide all have a milk chocolate type of complexion. That there are people one or two grades lighter than this does NOT change the fact that they are still dark/black compared to Romans like Manilius himself who makes this observation, twit.
I have shown the medium tone. I have put up the full text for context:
The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it it a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone. The Sun-God dries up with dust the tribes of Africans amid their desert lands; the Moors derive their name from their faces, and their identity is proclaimed by the colour of their skins.
your interpretation is not needed. It's not relative at this point. The examples are there, a group of people with similar medium of the dark set of people skin tone as per Manilus. It's time for you to shut up
Whether I say the medium tone is of blacks or not is irrelevant what the text says is relevant
" it it a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone."
^^^ this is the quote. In the initial thread I have the whole two pages for context. If you want Manilus to say it your way take it up with him.
AlTak said "the middle" which in case you hadn't noticed is the same thing as medium People in the middle of the dark people as the photos show
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:some ancient Egyptians probably had wooly hair
.
Probability estimates run from zero to 1. So what is it?
In Aristotle's Physiognomica we find the following(Book 14, Paragraph 4)
Why are Ethiopians(Nubians/Kushites, etc.) and Egyptians bandy-legged? Is it because the bodies of living creatures become distorted by the heat, like logs of wood when they become dry? The condition of their hair supports this theory, for it is curlier than that of other nations, and curliness is as it were, crookedness of the hair..
Again, Herodotus's observations about the "wooliness" of the hair of AEs is confirmed.
And then, of course, we have the well-known comparative statement(Physiognomica, Chp. 6, 812a) on skin colour: "Too black a hue as you see with Egyptians and Ethiopians(Nubians, Kushites, etc.) marks a coward[In our PC age that would be considered "racist"]. Or too white a hue as you see with women. A tawny colour signifies courage as you see with lions. It is the intermediate colour. A colour that is too ruddy marks a rogue as you see with foxes"
Racist fools have commented on this passage saying that it is doubtful Aristotle wrote such a thing. Same ole[sic] "believe me or your lying eyes" story. Pitiful!
Since these facts cannot be denied the trick these days is to cement "the sub-Saharan Africa" ideological firewall and come up with obfuscatory BS about "Eurasian haplogroups entering Africa deep in Paleolithic". Recall too in all this the old saying about supposedly hard data: "lies, damned lies, and statistics".
With uncheckable data for the posters on ES who don't have access to labs and the data gathering methodology of the mostly--there are some though who are committed more to science than to ideology--Eurocentric researchers hope to extend to the whole of North Africa these new-fangled theories about African archeology and anthropological genetics.
some believe un-wooly hair evolved in Africa and is indigenous to Africa, particulary in certain regions for certain reasons
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:some believe un-wooly hair evolved in Africa and is indigenous to Africa, particulary in certain regions for certain reasons
.
LOL. Goalpost on wheels. The subject is the AEs and others according to Manilius. Specifically now, on the AEs.
The Greeks were the eyewitnesses and the Greeks were closer in time to Pharaonic Egypt than the Romans.
Analogically, Conquistador Hernan Cortes is closer in time to what Mexico's original populations looked like than someone visiting Mexico some 500 years later. The Greeks colonised Egypt for about 300 years then the Romans entered and stayed for approx. 600 years.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: [QUOTE]some believe un-wooly hair evolved in Africa and is indigenous to Africa, particulary in certain regions for certain reasons /QUOTE].
LOL. Goalpost on wheels. The subject is the AEs and others according to Manilius. Specifically now, on the AEs.
then why are you bringing up hair, that is not in the text ????
quote:Originally posted by lamin:
The Greeks were the eyewitnesses and the Greeks were closer in time to Pharaonic Egypt than the Romans.
Analogically, Conquistador Hernan Cortes is closer in time to what Mexico's original populations looked like than someone visiting Mexico some 500 years later. The Greeks colonised Egypt for about 300 years then the Romans entered and stayed for approx. 600 years. [/qb]
Arrian (one of the main ancient historians of Alexander the Great) (Indica 6.9):
The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia: the southern Indians are rather more like Ethiopians as they are black to look on, and their hair is black; only they are not so snub-nosed or woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians physically.
__________________________________________
Strabo, Geography 15.1.13,
As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in color, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Egyptians.
posted
Yeh, I brought up hair just to irritate the Eurocentrics. LOL.
Imagine if the Ancient Egyptians were Americans. You would be hearing no end of "bad hair", "brillo pad", "kinky hair" "n---r hair", "raisin head", etc. LOL.
Imagine the purveyors of the world's first technological civilisation being described in those terms. LOL. But live with it.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Even your idiotic picture spam betrays you for Tut's complexion is much darker than your ridiculous collage of North Asians, a mixed Maghrebi, and light-skinned African American! You are pathetic as you are dumb! LOL
quote:asshole. I have shown the medium tone. I have put up the full text for context:
You have shown us worthless picture spam ant the text speaks for itself.
quote: The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it it a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone. The Sun-God dries up with dust the tribes of Africans amid their desert lands; the Moors derive their name from their faces, and their identity is proclaimed by the colour of their skins.
your interpretation is not needed. It's not relative at this point. The examples are there, a group of people with similar medium of the dark set of people skin tone as per Manilus. It's time for you to shut up.
LOL You say it's "my" interpretation when the context Manilius provides is clear to anyone with a decent functioning brain!--That obviously excludes YOU! LOL And then the "examples" you provide have nothing to do with the people Manilius described but YOUR own twisted interpretation! LOL You are not only an idiot but a hypocrite who desperately denies the obvious even when you post it!
quote:Whether I say the medium tone is of blacks or not is irrelevant what the text says is relevant
Exactly and the text lists black peoples from darkest to lightest, dummy!! That IS the context!
quote:" it it a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone."
LOL Again without context. Egypt IS nearer to Rome than 'Aethiopia' and 'India' but Afora (Africa) and Maure are even nearer. The climate of Egypt is moderate compared to Aethiopia and India, NOT Rome because Egypt is still a HOT country compared to Rome for obvious reasons! LOL Again your leaving out the context is distortion but with the entire text it becomes quite clear.
quote:^^^ this is the quote. In the initial thread I have the whole two pages for context. If you want Manilus to say it your way take it up with him.
Dummy! I am saying the way Manilius says it! He lists blacks of the southern countries from darkest to lightest from southern most to northernmost after he lists whites from lightest to darkest from northernmost to southernmost. The context and implications are quite clear!
quote:AlTak said "the middle" which in case you hadn't noticed is the same thing as medium People in the middle of the dark people as the photos show
LOL Which photos? The ones of the north Asians you spam who live farther north and at higher latitudes than Rome yet was never described by Manilius?? Or the modern mixed-Maghrebi and light-skinned African American?? LOL B|tch either you dumb act is too good or you are really that dumb! Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:some ancient Egyptians probably had wooly hair
.
Probability estimates run from zero to 1. So what is it?
In Aristotle's Physiognomica we find the following(Book 14, Paragraph 4)
Why are Ethiopians(Nubians/Kushites, etc.) and Egyptians bandy-legged? Is it because the bodies of living creatures become distorted by the heat, like logs of wood when they become dry? The condition of their hair supports this theory, for it is curlier than that of other nations, and curliness is as it were, crookedness of the hair..
Again, Herodotus's observations about the "wooliness" of the hair of AEs is confirmed.
And then, of course, we have the well-known comparative statement(Physiognomica, Chp. 6, 812a) on skin colour: "Too black a hue as you see with Egyptians and Ethiopians(Nubians, Kushites, etc.) marks a coward[In our PC age that would be considered "racist"]. Or too white a hue as you see with women. A tawny colour signifies courage as you see with lions. It is the intermediate colour. A colour that is too ruddy marks a rogue as you see with foxes"
Racist fools have commented on this passage saying that it is doubtful Aristotle wrote such a thing. Same ole[sic] "believe me or your lying eyes" story. Pitiful!
Since these facts cannot be denied the trick these days is to cement "the sub-Saharan Africa" ideological firewall and come up with obfuscatory BS about "Eurasian haplogroups entering Africa deep in Paleolithic". Recall too in all this the old saying about supposedly hard data: "lies, damned lies, and statistics".
With uncheckable data for the posters on ES who don't have access to labs and the data gathering methodology of the mostly--there are some though who are committed more to science than to ideology--Eurocentric researchers hope to extend to the whole of North Africa these new-fangled theories about African archeology and anthropological genetics.
Again, pitiful
what does the anthropology say on the predominant hair type of the ancient Egyptians and also Kushites?
some believe un-wooly hair evolved in Africa and is indigenous to Africa, particulary in certain regions for certain reasons
As I explained several times before, Ausar (an Egyptian) has mentioned that kinky hair is actually more common in the north (the Delta) than in the south. This is why even today many 'Arab' Egyptians have kinky or frizzy afro type hair. Wavy hair is more common in the south yet the lyinass dummy does not know that the wavy hair of Africans is NOT like the wavy hair of Europeans because it is still thicker and 'wooly' to the touch and not as smooth or 'silky' as European hair.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Even your idiotic picture spam betrays you for Tut's complexion is much darker than your ridiculous collage of North Asians, a mixed Maghrebi, and light-skinned African American! You are pathetic as you are dumb! LOL
As we can see Djehutie now resorts to outright lies as we can easily see that all the people shown here have the same skin tone as the Egyptian some even darker and this despite the fact that the Tutankhamun bust is shown in dark gallery lighting. And if one were to follow through his logic Will Smith is not black. But furthermore. Manilus descibed 'Moors' i.e . "Mauri" ie " black skinned people" as one to two decirnably lighter tones than the above medium dark toned people including Egyptian "Tut's complexion is much darker" < the kid is stupid, see for yourself folks Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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So after your pathetic and ridiculous picture spam fails, you now up the anti on your spin by making them all black-and-white!
I swear, sometimes I wonder if you're really here to spread some anti-black agenda or here just to entertain the hell out of us! LOLPosts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
^^^^ you're the only one it fails, normal people can see these people have the same skin tone. It becomes even more obvious when made in black and white.
You have an unspoken racial theory that certain ethnicities cannot have the same skin tone as Tut. No matter how many times shown otherwise you won't admit it. So even whenyour theory is disproven so many times, like looking at a naked emerpor, you still insist he wears clothes. This is why you are incapabale of being objective and honest, instead patronizing and True Blacksist. Will Smith according to your concepts is not black. Your cute cartoons and LOL's can't save you
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
We already know what Tut's skin tone was and who has the closest in appearance to him..
Like I said I don't even understand why this subject is being debated, when this idiocracy was debunked long ago.
As Altakruri said, You repeat a Lie often enough one will start to believe it.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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