This is topic RACE WAR Among Muslims in Al-Andalus: How Berbers were treated in Spain due to color in forum Egyptology at EgyptSearch Forums.


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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
I found out quite recently that Berbers and Andalusians, Kurds and Berbers in the Fatimid alliance, Greek Copts and Egyptian Copts in Egypt had a lot of same color problems and conflict that is found in modern times. Apparently these problems were similar or an earlier cycle of what's going on today - in Libya especially. Even the so-called Zanj revolt turned out to be a revolt of a mainly black Arabs and a minority of black Africans all free in Iraq.


The Berbers especially during Almoravid and Almohad periods had a rather intense racial problem and rivalry with the native Muslim Andalusis or rulers of the Spanish Muslims. It may not have started out racial, but as usual it ended up that way.

Here are a few examples from texts of what I am talking about.

Al Raqiq who was a servant of the North African Sanhaja Zirids wrote about the conflict in Cordoba. He "illustrates through anecdote this animosity but this time gives his story racial overtones. We are told of a woman returning from an oven with a pot, which she dropped thus attracting attention to herself. On noticing she was black, the Cordobans shouted ‘there is a black Berber’, and she was killed.”. p. 75 The Fall of the Caliphate of Cordoba: Berbers and Andalusis in Conflict.


Cordoba although a slave state was at that time "the most sophisticated city in Europe".

Beginning in the 10th century with the "half-Basque" blue eyed Abdul Rahman III there had been a growing population of Muslims among the ruling classes that were partly descended from white slaves yet had claimed Arab ethnicity. There was also a large Slavic population that were the former slaves of the Umayyads occupying the Levant region in Spain.
The earliest Arabian population however was from the Yemen and from other tribes that are noted as being black in the Arabian peninsula during that same period. As Thomas Arnold put it in his book, Legacy of Islam (published 1931), the slaves were mostly “from the Slavonic peoples”, and in Spain, Muslims “preferred the mothers of their children to be those fair-complexioned slaves captured in the north of Spain, rather than, or in addition to, their own womenfolk…” Persians and Turks were also called "the freedmen" by the Umayyads at this time.

By the time the Almoravids arrived in the 11th century many of the Muslims are already other than the original Moorish Masmuda/Zanata populations i.e. other than black.

At the turn of the 11th century an ibn Abi Amir had begun to import a large number of Berber mercenaries especially from the Sanhaja tribe that had already a developed disliked for the Umayyads. This ibn Abi Amir was continuing what Abd er Rahman had done.

The imported Berbers were "professional soldiers known for their horsemanship and outstanding courage" Abi Amir used them for military campaigns against the Christian Europeans of Navarr,e LEon and Castille.

Each year Ibn abi Amir "would return from these campaigns with many thousands of captives, male and female" pp. 41-42 (1992) Jayyusi and Marin "The Political History of al-Andalus" in The Legacy of Muslim Spain

The Sanhaja groups (derived from the Tuareg/Songhai populations) had taken over Cordoba and apparently many of the Hispano Muslims resented it. Anger had grown against these Berbers in their Cordoban capital called Madinat al- Zahra, and it came to the point where they had to be armed to be safe. Much of this anger came from the upper classes who actually may have been quite different from the plebeians who are given the derogatory names such as "sawad".
In any case " it is difficult to ascertain whether it was all the Cordobans, both the mob and the nobility that who hated the Berbers, as the sources are vague as to who exactly were the initiators of this animosity: 'they say hatred of the Berbers was made known'". p. 67 The Fall of the Caliphate

According to historian Peter C. Scales sometime in the 11th century
"The fitna in Cordoba between the people and the Berbers flared up... The mob was given free reign to attack the Berber tribes. It was presumably in this pogrom that Abd Al Malik al Muzaffar's old teacher Ahmad bin Abda'l Azziz bin Faraj Ibn al-Hubab, a grammarian had died. Ibn Bashkuwal tells us that he was a Berber of the Masmuda tribe. It would seem that the murder of North Africans encouraged by Muhammed al-Mahdi's request to be brought Berber heads was not restricted to the capital." p 70


Also Ibn abdal Jabbar "a Hispano Muslim ordered any who had a similar appearance to a Berber to be killed.” p. 74

"There are certainly 2 instances documented of innocent Maghrebis being caught up in the racial animousity where vented by the local populations in the south of al-Andalus. In Elvira a pilgrim from Ceuta, a certain Khalaf b. Ali b. Nasir b. Mansur al Balawi al Sabti, ..." p. 70

The name Balawi is always a reference to the Baliyy or Baliyyun of Idrisi tribe of the Himyarites occupying Hadramaut and Africa, so this person could have been either Arabian or Berber.

"Another Khalaf (b.Masud al Jarawi) a faqir from Melilla was murdered by the people of Malaga 'during the Andalusi revolt against the Berbers at the time of the al-Mahdi's uprising.'" Fall of the Caliphate of Cordoba

Thus a man of the Jarawa tribe (i.e. Garawan or Wangara) who were "a huge portion" of the Zanata Berbers in that period was killed. The Daza inhabitants of Fezzan and Germa are largely descended from Garawan and still call themselves Garan or Goran.


At one point Berbers were concentrated in a segregated section of Cordoba.
“The Berbers had been quartered in the palace of al-Zahra but were in fear of their lives if they went out alone.” p. 73
After having to flee this place, "The Berbers returned to al-Zahra to evacuate their families and belongings…".(p. 77) For “Muhammed (al-mahdi)solemnly swore to never rest until he had rid himself of all the Berbers. " p. 77
The Fall of the Caliphate of Cordoba



After these Almoravid Berbers got back in power under a Sulayman al Musta'in Andalusia was distributed to various Berber tribes.
The Sanhaja (Tuareg/Songhai) received Elvira (Grenada), the Maghrawa branch of the Zanata received areas north of Cordoba, the Banu Yafran/Ifren or (Ifuren Tuareg tribe) received Jaen. Other Zenata received other fiefs.

Another example of white Muslim racial insults against the Berbers is evidenced in the story of Al Ja'far or Gafar a poet who fell in love with the same woman the son of the Almohad ruler had a thing for.

Abu Ga'far was already involved in a conspiracy against the Berbers and their leaders which at that time were Abd'Al-Mumin a Zanata member of the mostly Masmuda Almohades dynasty and his son.

He had been working for Abd-al Mumin but the last straw was when he mockingly insulted Abdal-Mumin's son saying "What do you see in that black fellow? If you wish, I could buy you ten better ones in the slave market."

"Hearing that he was to be imprisoned the poet fled to Malaga" where he was not long afterwards executed.

Some people just can't be trusted.

The idea that Berbers were of obviously different appearance from the Spaniards including their Spanish Muslim countrymen is born out by the documents.
 

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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
Full text of

"Granada, Or, The Expulsion of the Moors from Spain"
George Cubitt 1878

http://www.archive.org/stream/granadaorexpuls00cubigoog/

.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
Of course other early hints of racial contempt are found with documenters of the crusades when the Europeans mentions the "giant" black men in the Holy land amongst the foes wearing red turbans. (The other people they met were the non-black Kurds like Salah-ed-din.)


This black part of the Muslim enemy are described in a primary texts describing the crusades Itinerarium Peregrinorum as "...a fiendish race, forceful and relentless, deformed by nature and unlike other living beings, black in color, of enormous stature and inhuman savageness. Instead of helmets they wore red coverings (i.e. turbans) on their heads, brandishing in their hands clubs bristling with iron teeth, whose shattering blows neither helmets nor mailshirts could resist. As a standard they carried a carved effigy of Muhammad..."

These giant black men in red turbans were likely Hijazi Arabians who extending through Central Arabia not the Berbers.

"for turbans are the crowns the Arabs when a man's people made him a chief they bound his head with a turban as kings wore crowns so the chiefs of the Arabs wore red turbans: (L, TA:) there were brought to the desert, from Harah, red turbans, which the nobles among the Arabs wore..." (Lane, Arabic-English lexicon. Asian Educational Services, 1985, p. 2058).


There was also apparently contempt between these Arabs who had settled in Africa and the Syrians.

"Balj and his Syrians soon made themselves thoroughly hated by the African Arabs, especially the Ansars, who after the battle in the Harrah (683AD) had fled in large bodies to the west after the battle of Harra." E.G. Brill's Encyclopaedia of Islam 1913-1936 Vol. II p. 617

Syrians were also used against the Berbers in the earliest period of the Muslims in Spain. As early as the 8th century Spain had seen a considerable influx of men from Syria and Iraq.

The immigration of Berbers were the bulk of the Muslims in Spain between the 8th and the 13th centuries, unquestionably.

"The immigration of Berbers in the eigthh through twelfth centuries was so great that they were soon the majority of the Muslim population. By the end of the tenth century they were already 'the mainstay of the government under the Amirids' and had begun to establish independent states(Toledo, Badajoz, Malaga, Elvira, Granada, Algericas). By the end of the next century as we shall see, they already controlled all of Andalus. However the so-called "Arabs" (i.e. Syrians) generally controlled the government and made significant cultural contributions." p. 45, (1994). Jews, Visigoths, and Muslims in Medieval Spain. by N. Roth
 

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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by alTakruri:

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Libyan
Faience tile from the royal palace at Medinet Habu.
Ramesses III ( 1186–1155 BC)

Cheikh Anta Diop said the Berbers were descendants of Sea people and also intermarrtied with Vandals. Kabyles tend to have that look.
Diop said ancient Egyptians were unrelated to Berbers.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ LOL Typical Lyinass strawman post which has NOTHING to do with what Dana is talking about!

More to the point. Modern day Spaniards portraying the Moors who once occupied them.



Interesting findings by the way, Dana. There's no way getting around it. The Moors looked different from the native Spaniards as well as Syrians and Iraqis. What could it be?...
Oh yeah, they're black.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

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Originally posted by alTakruri:

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Libyan
Faience tile from the royal palace at Medinet Habu.
Ramesses III ( 1186–1155 BC)

Cheikh Anta Diop said the Berbers were descendants of Sea people and also intermarrtied with Vandals. Kabyles tend to have that look.
Diop said ancient Egyptians were unrelated to Berbers.

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Where is your evidence of a Berber tribe that wasn't described as black before the 15th century. I have been waiting for some months now.

Kabylia where tens of thousands of Germanic Vandal people - according to Procopius and other texts - settled is not a Berber tribe. Its a geographical place name.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
Full text of

"Granada, Or, The Expulsion of the Moors from Spain"
George Cubitt 1878

http://www.archive.org/stream/granadaorexpuls00cubigoog/

.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ So what do you make of this attack against Berbers? Do you think this was done by white natives against people who saw them as oppressors?

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quote:

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Originally posted by HERU:
jehosafats here

Don't forget the poor land allotments after the initial conquest of Iberia, which led to the Berber Revolt.

I figured it was well-known Berbers were widely discriminated against, especially in terms of housing and employment. They were mostly rural and did rather menial jobs. Also, the Caliph's Black Guard had a menacing presence in Cordoba.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ So what do you make of this attack against Berbers? Do you think this was done by white natives against people who saw them as oppressors?

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I think it also had something to do with what happened with the Almoravids got into power, but i can't remember. Would have to go back and look.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
"We are told of a woman returning from an oven with a pot, which she dropped thus attracting attention to herself. On noticing she was black, the Cordobans shouted ‘there is a black Berber’, and she was killed.”.

p. 75 The Fall of the Caliphate of Cordoba: Berbers and Andalusis in Conflict.

[/QB]

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http://books.google.com/books?id=m-Wvg__iHPAC&pg=PA103

More from your source:

The Fall of the Caliphate of Cordoba: Berbers and Andalusis in Conflict.

p 142

_________________

p 102


 

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Posted by HERU (Member # 6085) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
hi jehosafats - have you long been a member here, and just now returning, because if so I can see why you left with all of the trolls about? [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:

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Yes we know Berbers were not the only black people in Iberia, Neanderdull. Blacks from the Sudan and Arabia can be included.

Just as Masmuda Berbers were not the only blacks in the Fatimid army.

“the Fatimid army was largely an infantry force composed of blacks. (Nasir-i Khusrau included the Masamida among the blacks)” parentheses are the author's
State and Society in Fatimid Egypt. 1991, p. 94.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
"Most of the military slaves of Islam were white. . . . Black military slaves were, however, not unknown ."
"While the white units of the Fatimid army were incorporated by Saladin in his own forces, the black regiments were disbanded " Bernard Lewis pp. 65-67 Race and Slavery in the Middle East.

There was much racial conflict and discrimination against the blacks in general in the Fatimid army by the Kurdish leader Saladin.

In addition Heru/Jehoshaphat pointed me to a scholarly text providing evidence that the whole idea of a Zanj slave revolt includes was a European colonialist projection and not only were their mainly free men involve but they were mostly Arabians and not Zanj who were also mainly free men.

M. Shaban, “The vast majority of the rebels were Arabs of the Persian Gulf supported by free East Africans who had made their homes in the region.”
Shaban, M.A. (1976). Islamic history: A new interpretation. 750-1055. Vol. 2. Cambridge University Press. page 101

Maybe that is why the descendants of these Qays Arabs in Iraq are considered 2/3rd of the black population there.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ So what do you make of this attack against Berbers? Do you think this was done by white natives against people who saw them as oppressors?

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I think it also had something to do with what happened with the Almoravids got into power, but i can't remember. Would have to go back and look.

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The Almovarids are described as Berbers

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And the Berbers were described as black in that period as MOST of these Guddala and Lamtuna who were the Almoravids - still called Ilamtuna or Kel Aulammidden or Tuareg, still are.


in case you forgot

Sorry if you don't like the term black - the Muslim Spaniards sure did.
 

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Posted by claus3600 (Member # 19584) on :
 
^ Nice picture.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
LOL @ the lyinass still stuck in the delusion that Berbers were not black. I believe she is fixated on the white foreigners of the coastal areas who adopted the African Berber language and/or mixed with Berber men.
 

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Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
I found out quite recently that Berbers and Andalusians, Kurds and Berbers in the Fatimid alliance, Greek Copts and Egyptian Copts in Egypt had a lot of same color problems and conflict that is found in modern times. Apparently these problems were similar or an earlier cycle of what's going on today - in Libya especially. Even the so-called Zanj revolt turned out to be a revolt of a mainly black Arabs and a minority of black Africans all free in Iraq.


The Berbers especially during Almoravid and Almohad periods had a rather intense racial problem and rivalry with the native Muslim Andalusis or rulers of the Spanish Muslims. It may not have started out racial, but as usual it ended up that way.

Here are a few examples from texts of what I am talking about.

Al Raqiq who was a servant of the North African Sanhaja Zirids wrote about the conflict in Cordoba. He "illustrates through anecdote this animosity but this time gives his story racial overtones. We are told of a woman returning from an oven with a pot, which she dropped thus attracting attention to herself. On noticing she was black, the Cordobans shouted ‘there is a black Berber’, and she was killed.”. p. 75 The Fall of the Caliphate of Cordoba: Berbers and Andalusis in Conflict.


Cordoba although a slave state was at that time "the most sophisticated city in Europe".

Beginning in the 10th century with the "half-Basque" blue eyed Abdul Rahman III there had been a growing population of Muslims among the ruling classes that were partly descended from white slaves yet had claimed Arab ethnicity. There was also a large Slavic population that were the former slaves of the Umayyads occupying the Levant region in Spain.
The earliest Arabian population however was from the Yemen and from other tribes that are noted as being black in the Arabian peninsula during that same period. As Thomas Arnold put it in his book, Legacy of Islam (published 1931), the slaves were mostly “from the Slavonic peoples”, and in Spain, Muslims “preferred the mothers of their children to be those fair-complexioned slaves captured in the north of Spain, rather than, or in addition to, their own womenfolk…” Persians and Turks were also called "the freedmen" by the Umayyads at this time.

By the time the Almoravids arrived in the 11th century many of the Muslims are already other than the original Moorish Masmuda/Zanata populations i.e. other than black.

At the turn of the 11th century an ibn Abi Amir had begun to import a large number of Berber mercenaries especially from the Sanhaja tribe that had already a developed disliked for the Umayyads. This ibn Abi Amir was continuing what Abd er Rahman had done.

The imported Berbers were "professional soldiers known for their horsemanship and outstanding courage" Abi Amir used them for military campaigns against the Christian Europeans of Navarr,e LEon and Castille.

Each year Ibn abi Amir "would return from these campaigns with many thousands of captives, male and female" pp. 41-42 (1992) Jayyusi and Marin "The Political History of al-Andalus" in The Legacy of Muslim Spain

The Sanhaja groups (derived from the Tuareg/Songhai populations) had taken over Cordoba and apparently many of the Hispano Muslims resented it. Anger had grown against these Berbers in their Cordoban capital called Madinat al- Zahra, and it came to the point where they had to be armed to be safe. Much of this anger came from the upper classes who actually may have been quite different from the plebeians who are given the derogatory names such as "sawad".
In any case " it is difficult to ascertain whether it was all the Cordobans, both the mob and the nobility that who hated the Berbers, as the sources are vague as to who exactly were the initiators of this animosity: 'they say hatred of the Berbers was made known'". p. 67 The Fall of the Caliphate

According to historian Peter C. Scales sometime in the 11th century
"The fitna in Cordoba between the people and the Berbers flared up... The mob was given free reign to attack the Berber tribes. It was presumably in this pogrom that Abd Al Malik al Muzaffar's old teacher Ahmad bin Abda'l Azziz bin Faraj Ibn al-Hubab, a grammarian had died. Ibn Bashkuwal tells us that he was a Berber of the Masmuda tribe. It would seem that the murder of North Africans encouraged by Muhammed al-Mahdi's request to be brought Berber heads was not restricted to the capital." p 70


Also Ibn abdal Jabbar "a Hispano Muslim ordered any who had a similar appearance to a Berber to be killed.” p. 74

"There are certainly 2 instances documented of innocent Maghrebis being caught up in the racial animousity where vented by the local populations in the south of al-Andalus. In Elvira a pilgrim from Ceuta, a certain Khalaf b. Ali b. Nasir b. Mansur al Balawi al Sabti, ..." p. 70

The name Balawi is always a reference to the Baliyy or Baliyyun of Idrisi tribe of the Himyarites occupying Hadramaut and Africa, so this person could have been either Arabian or Berber.

"Another Khalaf (b.Masud al Jarawi) a faqir from Melilla was murdered by the people of Malaga 'during the Andalusi revolt against the Berbers at the time of the al-Mahdi's uprising.'" Fall of the Caliphate of Cordoba

Thus a man of the Jarawa tribe (i.e. Garawan or Wangara) who were "a huge portion" of the Zanata Berbers in that period was killed. The Daza inhabitants of Fezzan and Germa are largely descended from Garawan and still call themselves Garan or Goran.


At one point Berbers were concentrated in a segregated section of Cordoba.
“The Berbers had been quartered in the palace of al-Zahra but were in fear of their lives if they went out alone.” p. 73
After having to flee this place, "The Berbers returned to al-Zahra to evacuate their families and belongings…".(p. 77) For “Muhammed (al-mahdi)solemnly swore to never rest until he had rid himself of all the Berbers. " p. 77
The Fall of the Caliphate of Cordoba



After these Almoravid Berbers got back in power under a Sulayman al Musta'in Andalusia was distributed to various Berber tribes.
The Sanhaja (Tuareg/Songhai) received Elvira (Grenada), the Maghrawa branch of the Zanata received areas north of Cordoba, the Banu Yafran/Ifren or (Ifuren Tuareg tribe) received Jaen. Other Zenata received other fiefs.

Another example of white Muslim racial insults against the Berbers is evidenced in the story of Al Ja'far or Gafar a poet who fell in love with the same woman the son of the Almohad ruler had a thing for.

Abu Ga'far was already involved in a conspiracy against the Berbers and their leaders which at that time were Abd'Al-Mumin a Zanata member of the mostly Masmuda Almohades dynasty and his son.

He had been working for Abd-al Mumin but the last straw was when he mockingly insulted Abdal-Mumin's son saying "What do you see in that black fellow? If you wish, I could buy you ten better ones in the slave market."

"Hearing that he was to be imprisoned the poet fled to Malaga" where he was not long afterwards executed.

Some people just can't be trusted.

The idea that Berbers were of obviously different appearance from the Spaniards including their Spanish Muslim countrymen is born out by the documents.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ LOL Typical Lyinass strawman post which has NOTHING to do with what Dana is talking about!

More to the point. Modern day Spaniards portraying the Moors who once occupied them.



Interesting findings by the way, Dana. There's no way getting around it. The Moors looked different from the native Spaniards as well as Syrians and Iraqis. What could it be?...
Oh yeah, they're black.

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Oh boy here we go again.

Here are more folks dressing as Moors. Oops they ain't Black!

[img] http://www.midi-france.info/10history/spainmoors.gif [/img]

Oh Fudge..just click on it.


This is there here Santigo trampling the Moors.



And if you want to get silly. Here are the Black Moors right here.

 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by malcontent7:

All very interesting. But you imply here that Berber is synonymous with Black. I do not believe that is true.

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quote:

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Oh boy here we go again.

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quote:

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Here are more folks dressing as Moors. Oops they ain't Black!

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quote:

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This is there here Santigo trampling the Moors.

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quote:

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And if you want to get silly. Here are the Black Moors right here.

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LOL The only one getting silly is YOU since you have no proper defense to Spaniards donning black-face to portray Moors!
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 


LOL Funny how the Malcontent idiot would compare his picture of black faced monsters above with black faced men below who don Saharan Berber outfits complete with cross bandoliers and armed with spears.



This bears a striking resemblance to the outfit and arms of these Tuareg warriors below.



Though I can't help but to think your comparison of black men to black monsters is a Freudian slip on your part.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by melchior7:

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

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All very interesting. But you imply here that Berber is synomous with Black. I do not bleieve that is true.

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Why put words in my mouth. Why would Berber be a name synonymous with Black when Berber was a name for an ethnic group - unlike today in which it is used for a dialect and people who speak it.

of course Berbers were black though especially the ones that Muslim and Mozarabic Andalusians saw.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti:
[qb]
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

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Originally posted by malcontent7:


[QUOTE][qb]This is there here Santigo trampling the Moors.

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Where does it say Santiago is trampling Moors? Just wondering, because they look like Andalusian Muslims to me.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

A Morisco with Spaniards?


translation anybody?

Las pinturas de castas

A principios del siglo XVIII apareció en el arte la "pintura de castas", imágenes plásticas que representan a la gente de acuerdo a una clasificación racial de las personas mezcladas. Estas pinturas son muy interesantes porque reflejan la vida de la sociedad novohispana del siglo XVIII. Muestran las actividades a las que se dedicaban, la ropa que usaban y el lugar donde vivían.

A las personas que racialmente fueron el producto de mezclas de distintas etnias se les denominó "castas". Este heterogéneo grupo tuvo el mismo problema social que los mestizos. Si no se les podía ubicar claramente dentro de algún grupo racial, eran negados y discriminados por unos y otros. Las castas muestran la complicada estructura social que se formó en la Nueva España.

Algunas de ellas son:

De español con india - mestizo
De mestizo con india - coyote
De negro con española - mulato
De mulato con española- morisco
De español con morisca - albino
De español con albina - negro-torna-atrás
...
 

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Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
'Berber' itself is not synonymous with black because it is a language group spoken by peoples of many complexions including 'white' peoples; however, that does no change the FACT that Moor is synonymous with black as that was its very meaning!

We've been through this many times before Malcontent but you are too stubborn and stupid to accept it.

No, The Spanish called the muslim invaders Moors because they came from the area of North Africa called Mauretania. The Berber tribe directly across from Spain had been called Mauri ever since Roman times. The Spanish came to call all the muslim invaders Moros, and still call people from Morocco and North Africa Moros.

Also most Berber tribes are located near the coastal areas of North Africa which saw various migration down throught history from Europeans entering during the Ice Age, Megalithic builders, Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans,Byzantines, Germanic Vandals and Arabs etc. To believe they would have somehow preserved a Black phenotype if they ever had one is ludicrous.

Here is a depiction from Mideaval Spain


As you can see the Moors were a mixed bunch with Blacks being among the minority.
Can you produce a depiction from midieval Spain that proves the contrary? I don't think you can.


And to Dana Marnich, I challenge you to show me some remnant of a Black African cultural element or tradtion in Spain, or some Black African loan words in Spain from say Wolof or Bambara etc. You can't becuase the Blacks that came to Spain were in the service Muslims, stripped of their culture and thoroughly islamicized. They adopted Arab langauge and culture. All their learning, technology and science came from the Arabs. Nothing Black African. And you know thats a fact. Thats why to claim that Blacks supposedly brought civilization to Europe or whatever rings empty!
 

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Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
Algunas de ellas son:

De español con india - mestizo
De mestizo con india - coyote
De negro con española - mulato
De mulato con española- morisco
De español con morisca - albino
De español con albina - negro-torna-atrás

A morisco was a Moor who had supposedly converted to Christianity. You will notice that in their racial scheme, the spaniards liken a morisco to a quadroon, which mean failry light skinned probably Middle Eastern looking.
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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

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Originally posted by malcontent7:


[QUOTE][qb]This is there here Santigo trampling the Moors.

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Where does it say Santiago is trampling Moors? Just wondering, because they look like Andalusian Muslims to me.

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I can't believe you would ask this question after all the similar paintings I have posted

According to Spanish legend, Saint James the Apostle appeared as a ferocious sword wielding warrior on horseback to help Christian armies in battles against the Moors during the Reconquista.

note dates, try not to post something from a later period like Orientalists of the 19th/20th cent

Santiago Matamoros. 17th century ("Saint James the Moor-slayer").

Santiago Matamoros. 18th century ("Saint James the Moor-slayer").


"Moor" is a Eurocentric term.

I will mention now art that depicts Moors in the context of scenes which represent the Moors in conflict with Christians in Spain not blacks in places like Germany of which there were only several hundred by the 18th century most of them having nothing to do with the conquest of Iberia.

The above shows that some Spanish artists were interpreting Moors as tawny skinned not "black".
In other paintings you also see blacks depicted.
The people depicted in all of these items did not call themselves "Moors"

This term was being loosely by Europeans to apply to various people including tawny mullatoes, quadroons and blacks, all of these people had been living in Africa since before Christ, Muslims who they were in then at war with.
And relative to paler Europeans they lumped in all "colored" people as "blacks" or "Moors" including tan colored types some of whom had substancial ancestry from Phoenicians, Greeks, Visigoths, Arabs and various mixtures with indigenous black Africans. So you can't assume they had a mainstream American point of view that "blacks" are only people with afros and big lips.

Now in 2012 somebody might like to take this term "Moor" or "Berber" and say it applies only to purely indigenous Africans.

That's fine, but historically the Europeans who came up with these terms applied these terms loosely and the above paintings are an example.

google "Santiago Matamoros" or "Saint James the Moor-slayer".
These are the titles of many paintings and sculptures. Moor is in the title.
Why is Moor in the title? You would need to have some alternate explanation to that the reason Moor is in the title other than the percepetion of the artist is that people represented being slain by Saint James were Moors.

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Originally posted by the lioness:

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Originally posted by malibudusul:
The bloody Battle of El Puig, during the conquest of Valencia. Behind the king who pierces
with his spear the armor and breast of a Moor, there is Saint George fighting
and killing another Muslim with the sword.
http://www.studiolum.com/wang/jaume/jaume-i-9.jpg

Differences between the arms and tactics of the Moors and Christians. Altarpiece of St. George, Jérica, work of the circle of Marçal de Sax, c. 1420
http://www.studiolum.com/wang/jaume/jaume-i-10.jpg

http://riowang.blogspot.com.br/2010/11/i-did-not-say-that.html

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_______________________THE MOORS_______________________

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ There is obviously a confusion some folks have between Moors and Muslims. Not every Muslim in the Medieval Islamic world was a Moor and not all Moors were Muslims, though the vast majority who were in Europe at that time were.
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 

Dates from the 1400's
The term Moor predates Muslims, and it has always meant black we covered this time and again but Lioness like to keep rehashing old arguments and yes ,Djehuti every Black was a Moor but all Moors weren't Blacks especially by late medieval times, St Maurice for instance was a Moor but he was non Muslim and did not hail from North West Africa and below the Roman writer Martial inter change Moor with Ethiopians,so too did Juvenal
“Grieve not at this, poor wretch, and with thine own hand give thy wife the potion whatever is be for did she choose to bear her leaping children in her womb thou wouldst, perchance, become the sire of an Ethiop, a blackamoor would soon be your sole heir.”

- Juvenal, Satire VI, lines 596 – 600

“One of them, with wooly hair, like a Moor, seems to be the son of Santra, the cook. The second, with a flat nose and thick lips, is the image of Pannicus, the wrestler . . . of the two daughters, one is black . . . and belongs to Crotus, the flute player.”

Martial, VI, 39.

“When tired of each noblest matron, (Gildo) hands her over to the Moors. These Sidonian mothers, married in Carthage City, must needs be mate with barbarians. He thrusts upon me an Ethiopian son-in-law. This hideous hybrid affects the cradle.”
Claudian.

Read more: http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=bag&action=display&thread=25&page=3#ixzz1wqeojFyn
 

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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ There is obviously a confusion some folks have between Moors and Muslims. Not every Muslim in the Medieval Islamic world was a Moor and not all Moors were Muslims, though the vast majority who were in Europe at that time were.

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Coat of arms of Alcanadre. La Rioja, Spain. Depicting slayed heads of the Moors



this painting is called Santiago Matamoros (Saint james the Moorslayer)

Someone could say that the painters of paintings like this have incorrectly suggested that the people being slain are Moors and that people that look like that are not Moors.

People who appear to have some non-African ancestry like the slain people in the painting look had lived in Africa for many hundreds of years before the invasion of Iberia.

Since "Moor" throughout the centuries, a word first applied by Europeans has been applied to various including people like those in this painting and "black" is open to interpretation calling them Moors or not is up to whatever a person feels like.

Same thing with "black". Somebody might say that term is only for Africans. Others might say a dark Indian person is black.
Since "black" is not a precise term it is up to whatever a person feels like and Europeans historically have applied the term Moor to a variety of ethnic combinations.
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 

Dates from the 1400's
The term Moor predates Muslims, and it has always meant black we covered this time and again but Lioness like to keep rehashing old arguments and yes ,Djehuti every Black was a Moor but all Moors weren't Blacks especially by late medieval times, St Maurice for instance was a Moor but he was non Muslim and did not hail from North West Africa and below the Roman writer Martial inter change Moor with Ethiopians,so too did Juvenal
“Grieve not at this, poor wretch, and with thine own hand give thy wife the potion whatever is be for did she choose to bear her leaping children in her womb thou wouldst, perchance, become the sire of an Ethiop, a blackamoor would soon be your sole heir.”

- Juvenal, Satire VI, lines 596 – 600

“One of them, with wooly hair, like a Moor, seems to be the son of Santra, the cook. The second, with a flat nose and thick lips, is the image of Pannicus, the wrestler . . . of the two daughters, one is black . . . and belongs to Crotus, the flute player.”

Martial, VI, 39.

“When tired of each noblest matron, (Gildo) hands her over to the Moors. These Sidonian mothers, married in Carthage City, must needs be mate with barbarians. He thrusts upon me an Ethiopian son-in-law. This hideous hybrid affects the cradle.”
Claudian.

Read more: http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=bag&action=display&thread=25&page=3#ixzz1wqeojFyn
 

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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
Brada this thread is about Al-Andulus
not convert employees of the Christians


 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Melchoir7

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I challenge you to show me some remnant of a Black African cultural element or tradtion in Spain, or some Black African loan words in Spain from say Wolof or Bambara etc

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Brada this thread is about Al-Andulus not convert employees of the Christians

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Errr,,these were not converts,this was done by Iberian artist in 1400's Spain aka Iberia and they were not employees of Christians. goto Golden age Of The Moors.
BTW look how you zero in on the Moor on his knees before the anti-Christ but not the one sitting on his throne wearing a crown..ah tell gotta keep an eye on ya all the time.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

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Originally posted by melchior7:
[b]


As you can see the Moors were a mixed bunch with Blacks being among the minority.
Can you produce a depiction from midieval Spain that proves the contrary? I don't think you can.


And to Dana Marnich, I challenge you to show me some remnant of a Black African cultural element or tradtion in Spain, or some Black African loan words in Spain from say Wolof or Bambara etc. You can't becuase the Blacks that came to Spain were in the service Muslims, stripped of their culture and thoroughly islamicized. They adopted Arab langauge and culture. All their learning, technology and science came from the Arabs. Nothing Black African. And you know thats a fact. Thats why to claim that Blacks supposedly brought civilization to Europe or whatever rings empty!

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You people are really a trip. lol!. What I know is that you are definitely as block headed as your Neanderdull brethren. That's what I know. Are you telling me Berbers did not give anything to Moorish Spain.

Here is one thing of many things for you to learn about the black people called Berbers. The word for horsmanship in Spain "Jinete" is derived from the Zenetes or Zanata Berbers i.e. Zaghawa or Azuwagha horsemen.

"Originally, it meant a type of light cavalryman, proficient at skirmishing and rapid maneuver."

They also brought the jousting and javelins into Iberia, probably much like what was happening in the region of Bornu among Zaghawa related peoples there.


BTW - The sholarly i.e. non-Euronut sources on the Cantigas say they depict Muslims not necessarily Berbers and Arabs. in fact it is recognized they could be depicting people from anywhere in the Middle East.


So your Euronut site explanation is not going to work here.

The word Moor was a synonym for Negro among Mozarabs and I am just explaining why.


Hydraulics of course is another wonderful introduction of the Africans whose ancestors were the "pitch black" Garamantes, Gamphasantes Ghadmusii, Tidamensii and other peoples who possessed complex systems of irrigation and hydraulics as early as 4000 years ago.



A foggara of Gourara a town of Central Algeria, where live Zanata berbers. The technology for Afro Berber irrigation practices dates back thousands of years.

You are pitiful. Why are you so jealous of these Africans.


Zanata men or Berbers of Gourara in the region of Central Algeria

They are descendants of the Ibadites and Kharijites pushed southwards by later Arab invaders from northern parts of eastern Maghreb.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by melchior7:
[qb] Then don't confuse Morisco with Moors. Morisco means Moor-like. Probably due to their Muslim heritage.
 

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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 

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Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Loiness

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Brada this thread is about Al-Andulus not convert employees of the Christians

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Errr,,these were not converts,this was done by Iberian artist in 1400's Spain aka Iberia and they were not employees of Christians. goto Golden age Of The Moors.
BTW look how you zero in on the Moor on his knees before the anti-Christ but not the one sitting on his throne wearing a crown..ah tell gotta keep an eye on ya all the time.

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what is the page number in Golden Age of the Moors this appears. I suspect it is not made by a Mulsim artist or Iberian. What do you mean "on his knees before the anti-Christ?" Who is the man kneeling before and why is he kneeling and what is the primary source of this illustration?

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pages 38-40



http://www.scribd.com/bobbytx8/d/48499531-Golden-Age-of-The-Moor-Ivan-Van-Sertima
 

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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
Thanks,
According to the book I was wrong, these were not convert employees. Who would have guessed it's a Spanish propaganda piece depicting the Moors bowing to a (white!) anti-christ.
I looked at the book, the Brunson/Rashidi chapter had trouble figuring out where in the notes to the chapter there was the reference for the source of the ilustration

Also on page 37 immediately preceeding those illustrations is this statement:



Brunson, Rashidi
Golden Age of The Moor, ed. Ivan Vansertima
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Lioness

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Also on page 37 immediately preceeding those illustrations is this statement: Brunson, Rashidi Golden Age of The Moor, ed. Ivan Vansertima

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We already knew that coastal north Africans became diverse, my problem with you and others is for trying to diminished/minimized the role of those Africans with broader features and darker skin we know from genetics that by their fathers they are primarily Africans and by their mother Eurasians,see the above comments by Claudian


And not for nothing In the ancient sample of the Iberian Peninsula highlights the presence of 50% of sub-Saharan lines. These lines may have been introduced during the Solutrean, the Mesolithic or Neolithic.

Read more: http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=bag&action=display&thread=872#ixzz1wtQCjPIH
Golden Age Of The Moors is a classic work,should be in every ones library below is one of the book's many gems this portion tells of Taharka adventurism in Iberia the cartouche is from the preceding Libyan dynasty.


Read more: " target="_blank">http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=recent#ixzz1wtQnFCPY
 

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Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
You realize how dumb you sound demanding that folks don't post stuff from later Centuries after the Moors were expelled(15th Century) yet post stuff from later periods.

I mean you realize this makes your argument bunk right.

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness:

note dates, try not to post something from a later period like Orientalists of the 19th/20th cent

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness:

Santiago Matamoros. 17th century
Santiago Matamoros. 18th century [/QB]

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
You realize how dumb you sound demanding that folks don't post stuff from later Centuries after the Moors were expelled(15th Century) yet post stuff from later periods.

I mean you realize this makes your argument bunk right.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness:

note dates, try not to post something from a later period like Orientalists of the 19th/20th cent. The Santiagos are 17th and 18c so I didn't violate

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness:

Santiago Matamoros. 17th century
Santiago Matamoros. 18th century

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I specified don't post 19th cent/20th century orientalists.

I could go dig up the much older 13th c Alphonso X stuff depicting Moorish Almohad Berbers but we've already done many extensive threads on this



 

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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
Brada. on page 3 right after pg 2 you put up Van Sertima discusses dana's view that the Moors were black and contrasts it with Wayne Chandler's chapter who believes they were quite mixed as did Brunson/Rashidi.
The Golden Age of the Moor has different views coming from different authors of different chapters.
I also heard Wayne dumped dana and she was mad. It might just be a rumor
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Lioness don't go personal on this stuff even in rumor,that ain't cool!!

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Brada. on page 3 right after pg 2 you put up Van Sertima discusses dana's view that the Moors were black and contrasts it with Wayne Chandler's chapter who believes they were quite mixed as did Brunson/Rashidi. The Golden Age of the Moor has different views coming from different authors of different chapters. I also heard Wayne dumped dana and she was mad. It might just be a rumor

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quote:

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Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:

Dates from the 1400's
The term Moor predates Muslims, and it has always meant black we covered this time and again but Lioness like to keep rehashing old arguments and yes ,Djehuti every Black was a Moor but all Moors weren't Blacks especially by late medieval times, St Maurice for instance was a Moor but he was non Muslim and did not hail from North West Africa and below the Roman writer Martial inter change Moor with Ethiopians,so too did Juvenal
“Grieve not at this, poor wretch, and with thine own hand give thy wife the potion whatever is be for did she choose to bear her leaping children in her womb thou wouldst, perchance, become the sire of an Ethiop, a blackamoor would soon be your sole heir.”

- Juvenal, Satire VI, lines 596 – 600

“One of them, with wooly hair, like a Moor, seems to be the son of Santra, the cook. The second, with a flat nose and thick lips, is the image of Pannicus, the wrestler . . . of the two daughters, one is black . . . and belongs to Crotus, the flute player.”

Martial, VI, 39.

“When tired of each noblest matron, (Gildo) hands her over to the Moors. These Sidonian mothers, married in Carthage City, must needs be mate with barbarians. He thrusts upon me an Ethiopian son-in-law. This hideous hybrid affects the cradle.”
Claudian.

Read more: http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=bag&action=display&thread=25&page=3#ixzz1wqeojFyn

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Your depiction of Blacks in hooded garments looks very interesting. But is propaganda and likely racist showing that “Blacks” are supporters of the antichrist. This does not tell what most of the Moors in Spain looked like. The Cantigas portrayed scenes from everyday life.


Again they were initially called Moros in Spain because of where they came from ( Mauretania) not because of what they looked like. Most the Berbers who crossed over into Spain were light skinned. Tarik himself was described as having red hair and an early depiction shows him to be simply a tawny Berber.







Other Europeans may have associated the word Moor for Black but they really didn’t have the concept of race as we do today. Moor just referred to swarthy people coming from the other side of the Mediterranean. When the Spanish invented the term Negro, the English and others followed suit and a clear racial distinction was made..

You may be familiar with the color ranking of the Roman Manilius. It shows that among dark peoples the mauritanians were the lighest.

In Manilius' order swarthy complexions from the most
dark to the least dark are
- Aethiopes
- India
- Aegyptia
- Afrorum
- Mauretania


This would seem to be in accordance with the majority of light brown folk we see in North Africa today.



Most Blacks brought to Spain came with the Almoravids. They were not North Africans but recruited form Senegal and Mali. It’s documented.

“Yusuf ibn Tashfin , second Almoravid leader and man destined to conquer Andalus, reorganised these armies. Original Almoravid forces had been a tribal confederation, but yusuf changed the command structure and created a personal force of black slaves and foreigners. His bodyguard consisted of 500 non-Berber horsemen, including Arabs, Turks and Europeans, supported by a further 2,000 black African cavalry. Christian mercenaries as well as converted Spanish prisoners continued to fight for the Almoravids and their successors both in Andalus and North Africa throughout the late 11th and 12th centuries.
Cavalry also became more important than camel-mounted troops, particularly when operating in Andalus. There the high number of black Africans in Almoravid armies, many recruited from Senegal on the southern frontier of the empire, had a terrifying effect on Christian morale- as did the use of massed drums, unusual forms of bow, enormously long leather shields, bamboo spears and other unfamiliar weapons. A continuing use of large number camels also unsettled the Spaniards’ horses, in fact, such animals had been known in southern Andalus since at least the 10th century.”
http://www.oocities.org/ihusselbee/crusader/moors2.htm
 

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Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 

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Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Melchoir7

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I challenge you to show me some remnant of a Black African cultural element or tradtion in Spain, or some Black African loan words in Spain from say Wolof or Bambara etc

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How about Sufism,certain dances like say Flamenco,Fractal Mathematics introduced there by Hugo of Santalla in twelfth century Spain,this also worked itself in geomancy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXRvwk12atw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sAXdQP1RnM

Please clik the above


A non Islamic influence that was felt was that of the magician and may have influence European witch craft.
book a history of secret sociaties by arkon darul.the earliest mentions of the witches sabbats;which were also known as "synagogues" came in the eleventh century,and seem to show the assimilation of the diana cult with another:

one which involves the worship of a "black man". then we have mentions of brewing of potions,rubbing on oinyments,meetings and spells at cross-roads,renouncing christianity and the use of the wax image in a death-spell. by the fifteenth century,there was a remarkable similarity between witch meeting reported or confessed to,in many countries,some without much contact with one another. reference will be made later to the "sabbat" rituals reported from sweden,spain,scotland and france.

from the 7th~15th centuries the moors were ruling spain and north africa. cultral penetration from their universities into western europe was enormous; while their transltions of greek and other philosophical books posed a challenge which the theologians of the west were hard to meet during this very same period, a strange cult had arisen in morocco,crossed the strits into andaluisa, and wasactively-if secretly-followed in the centres of arab civilization with cosmopolitan populations. the latter consisted of arabized jews,christians scholors and wandering ascetics who travelled from one country to another in search of knowlage. the cult was called by the arab authorities{who tried to put it down} "the double horned", and it seemed to be connected moon-worship. it was certainly associated with magic, and its similarities to what were later reported as witch practises are very close.

the devotees of this cult met on thursday nights,were initiated by having a wound inflicted somewhere on their bodies{which left a smallscar},and beleived that they could raise magical power by dancing in or around a circle.

some of them claim that they at times carried out religious services which involved the saying of the moslem prayers backwards,and invoking el aswad(the black man)to help them. they served their priests, whom they saw only rarely, says the historian ibn jafar,after taking an oath of fealty of body and soul,they were drawn from all sections of the community, were of both sexes, and used ritual knives in the scarring ceremony. these knives were known as al-dhamme' or bloodletters. here is a typical initiation ceremony of the horned ones:we gathered by night, where two paths met and crossed; and he who had been so instructed bore with him a cock, which was to be sacrificed as the emblem of the new day. each carried a staff with two horns in brass upon the head; which is symbolical of the goat which is ridden,the sign of power and irresistiblity. "this meeting which is called the zabbat,the forceful or powerful one; and the circle of companions are the kafan(arabic for winding sheet).

we were thus termed, because each man wears over his naked flesh during the ritual only the white plain sheet in which he will be buried. "i was given the sanctity that night, and to join with the band of the elect who would spread joy throughout the world. those of us who are companions of the rabbna(our lord) examplified by the blacksmith".

in morocco to this day, blacksmiths are considered to be great sorcerers; and in the middle east in general(as well as in the arabian nights)it is the moor who is always the magician.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=001044
Old post of mine.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
You people are really a trip. lol!. What I know is that you are definitely as block headed as your Neanderdull brethren. That's what I know. Are you telling me Berbers did not give anything to Moorish Spain.

Here is one thing of many things for you to learn about the black people called Berbers. The word for horsmanship in Spain "Jinete" is derived from the Zenetes or Zanata Berbers i.e. Zaghawa or Azuwagha horsemen.

"Originally, it meant a type of light cavalryman, proficient at skirmishing and rapid maneuver."

They also brought the jousting and javelins into Iberia, probably much like what was happening in the region of Bornu among Zaghawa related peoples there.


BTW - The sholarly i.e. non-Euronut sources on the Cantigas say they depict Muslims not necessarily Berbers and Arabs. in fact it is recognized they could be depicting people from anywhere in the Middle East.


So your Euronut site explanation is not going to work here.

The word Moor was a synonym for Negro among Mozarabs and I am just explaining why.


Hydraulics of course is another wonderful introduction of the Africans whose ancestors were the "pitch black" Garamantes, Gamphasantes Ghadmusii, Tidamensii and other peoples who possessed complex systems of irrigation and hydraulics as early as 4000 years ago.


A foggara of Gourara a town of Central Algeria, where live Zanata berbers. The technology for Afro Berber irrigation practices dates back thousands of years.

You are pitiful. Why are you so jealous of these Africans.

They are descendants of the Ibadites and Kharijites pushed southwards by later Arab invaders from northern parts of eastern Maghreb.

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Let’s not start flinging insults so early in the game. And you don’t know what race I am but if it means anything to you, I am not white. Let me start by saying that I find it interesting that you would think that a stretch of water eight miles wide between Spain and North Africa would act as such an effective racial barrier where you would have Whites and one side and Blacks on the other despite the archaeological and historical evidence which shows migrations gong back and forth from continent to continent over many millennia. I wonder where in the world you have seen such a racial divide where one race suddenly ends and another begins within a short geographical distance? Normally the case is that racial changes occur gradually over a fair amount of distance. This you see in North Africa when you go south from the coast line into the Sahara.

As far as the Garamantes, I take nothing from them. I don’t know what their race was as there are varying reports. For example Herodotus claims they chased after Black trogolodytes. Others claim they were Blacks. But yet they have had the highest frequencies of Mtdna H1 a European marker than anywhere else in the world. In any case, it is a known fact that the irrigation systems in Spain are based on Arabic ones that have antecedents in Syria.

"With the spread of the Islamic Empire westward, agricultural and irrigation methods and techniques were introduced into the western regions of Islam. The rulers of al-Andalus and many of their followers were of Syrian origin, and the climate, terrain and hydraulic conditions in parts of southern Spain resemble those of Syria. It is hardly surprising, therefore, that the irrigation methods - technical and administrative - in Valencia closely resemble the methods applied in the Ghuta of Damascus".

Thomas F. Glick, Irrigation and Society in Medieval Valencia (Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press, 1970), 169-170, 186, 214, 230, 264-265.

"At first, the land resembled the rest of Europe in all its squalor. But within two-hundred years the Moors had turned Al-Andalus into a bastion of culture, commerce and beauty. "Irrigation systems imported from Syria and Arabia turned the dry plains... into an agricultural cornucopia. Olives and wheat had always grown there. The Arabs added pomegranates, oranges, lemons, aubergines, artichokes, cumin, coriander, bananas, almonds, pams, henna, woad, madder, saffron, sugar-cane, cotton, rice, figs, grapes, peaches, apricots and rice." (Burke, 1985, p. 37)
Burke, James The Day The Universe Changed 1985

That the Mauritania were expert cavalrymen who brought some of their skill into Spain, I will grant you. The Zenata reference is correct is well. But as “African” influence that hardly amounts to much. Moreover I still do not believe most of the African Berbers were even Black. Ibn Battuta of Berber ancestry himself said that the land of the Blacks begins in Mauritania. Now you may come up with some convoluted argument that the term he used for White didn’t really mean white or whatever. I have heard it all before. Nonetheless, If you travel south today from Morocco you find that by the time you are well into Mauritania everyone is Black. Coincidence??? I think not.

And moriscos were former Moors whom the Spanish did not see as Blacks based on their racial scheme.
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Michloir7

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While many will argue that Sufism has its origins in Egypt, the practice of Sama that of the whirling dervish comes out of Turkey. In any case Flamenco dancing can be traced back to Northern India where it originated with the Romani. There may be some Moorish Arabic influences however. The reference about the witchcraft practice from North Africa is a good one. I had read about that before. I don’t doubt that there was some influence probably in Southern Spain. Historically however there are not a lot of records of witchcraft trial in Spain as compared to other European countries. The majority were in the Basque regions and reflect a lot of Basque derived superstition and folklore.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Michloir7

quote:

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While many will argue that Sufism has its origins in Egypt, the practice of Sama that of the whirling dervish comes out of Turkey. In any case Flamenco dancing can be traced back to Northern India where it originated with the Romani. There may be some Moorish Arabic influences however. The reference about the witchcraft practice from North Africa is a good one. I had read about that before. I don’t doubt that there was some influence probably in Southern Spain. Historically however there are not a lot of records of witchcraft trial in Spain as compared to other European countries. The majority were in the Basque regions and reflect a lot of Basque derived superstition and folklore.

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Well Michloir your original question was African influence on Islamic Spain so that was my answer,but what did Islamic science and technology
consist of in the first place!! Old Nile valley schools of thought most of the time filtered through Greek records plus Persian and other Mesopotamian influences but the point about African fractals was one of direct influence, today secret societies such as the Masons still make use of Kemetic,Islamic and Levantine concepts and paraphernalia,I cannot independently verify that Alchemy etymologically means of the blacks as in Kem=black in Mdu Ntr and the Arabic Al means the,And what was Alchemy but burning things over a fire in a flask to blacken it,hence Alchemy is the science of the Blacks Ie the Kemities AkA the Egyptians.

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Thats only if you believe that most Egyptians were BLack. The ones in upper Egypt were mostly Balck. But not those in lower Egypt. Its good to have some pride in your race. But one should be careful not to take it too far. Objectivity and truth is always best, my friend.

 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
It's not a belief that most of the Kemeties were Blacks it's a fact,for during most of it's history the bulk of the populous dwelt in Upper Kemet and I am not saying that lower Kemeties were not equally blacks but at-least the area lay closer to in-migration from West Asia and Europe,remember lower Kemet became important during the late period and foreign dominated eras.
 

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Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Show me where it says those below are "Almohad" Berbers, and yes we have several threads on this topic, where I have layed out countless times that the Bulk of the Andaluci Population were not Berbers but Muwalladun converts, Saqalibba, Turks, Syrians etc.

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
You realize how dumb you sound demanding that folks don't post stuff from later Centuries after the Moors were expelled(15th Century) yet post stuff from later periods.

I mean you realize this makes your argument bunk right.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness:

note dates, try not to post something from a later period like Orientalists of the 19th/20th cent. The Santiagos are 17th and 18c so I didn't violate

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:

Santiago Matamoros. 17th century
Santiago Matamoros. 18th century

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I specified don't post 19th cent/20th century orientalists.

I could go dig up the much older 13th c Alphonso X stuff depicting Moorish Almohad Berbers but we've already done many extensive threads on this

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quote:

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"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas." (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York: Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)

---

quote:

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Originally posted by melchior7:
The ones in upper Egypt were mostly Balck. But not those in lower Egypt.

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quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Other than pockets of Foreign migrants in later Times, you have proof to back up your claim that "Lower Egyptians were not Black" as opposed that Upper Egyptians were "Mostly" blacks

quote:

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"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas." (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York: Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)

---

quote:

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Originally posted by melchior7:
The ones in upper Egypt were mostly Balck. But not those in lower Egypt.

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quote:

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But let me ask you, if Blacks lived all the way up to the Delta region then what was the geographic limit for Blacks, and where did Middle Eatern types begin? Also why as it a limit?

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Who said there was any geographic limits for Blacks, Blacks live all way out in the pacific the ancients certainly did not believe that,nor do genetics and again Kemet for most of it's history was oriented towards inner Africa,only with the arrival of powerful states did they even bothered taking the Med and beyond seriously,namely the Hyksos and the Hittites at first.



Can you see the movement down the nile of the different Nomes.
 

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Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Melchior

quote:

---

But let me ask you, if Blacks lived all the way up to the Delta region then what was the geographic limit for Blacks, and where did Middle Eatern types begin? Also why as it a limit?

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Who said there was any geographic limits for Blacks, Blacks live all way out in the pacific the ancients certainly did not believe that,nor do genetics and again Kemet for most of it's history was oriented towards inner Africa,only with the arrival of powerful states did they even bothered taking the Med and beyond seriously,namely the Hyksos and the Hittites at first.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
My point was Melchoir that if Blacks were found all the way out into the Pacific then Blacks found nearer to Africa should surprise no one after all the Natufians are linked to the Mashubians who came from the Nile Valley.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:

My point was Melchoir that if Blacks were found all the way out into the Pacific then Blacks found nearer to Africa should surprise no one after all the Natufians are linked to the Mashubians who came from the Nile Valley.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ You keep repeating that there were back-migrations. The only significant back-migrations we know of only occurred during Islamic times unless you have proof--valid and uncontested proof-- of back-migrations before this.

As Brada has told you there was NO "limit" for blacks as per evidence of the multiple waves of emmigrations outside of Africa both into Southwest Asia as well as into Europe!! As for 'Middle Eastern' types, the 'Middle East' is a geo-political term of Europeans. If by Middle East you mean Southwest Asia, then there were multiple and diverse types due to its location as a crossroads with some types resembling Africans right next door while other types resembling colder-adapted Eurasian types. The latter which you are no doubt referring to when it comes to the stereotypical light-skinned Middle Easterners quite naturally first appeared in the northern most areas of the 'Middle East' and likely originated from Central Asia, the Caucasus, etc.

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I can't believe you would even question pre islamic back migrations. Is it the New Afrocentric theory now that no back migrations into North Africa ever took place? I guess I've been away too long. I guess genetics is bogus too.

You say Eurasians orginated in the Central Asia. Now that's a good start. Obviously they eventually made their way down into the Arabian peninsula, no? So here is another way to ask the question, how far south did these Eurasian types extend during the early days of the Egyptian kingdom??? As you can probably guess, I firmly believe they extended well into North Africa along the coastal areas, and that the Egyptians were a fusion of tropical Africans and these people. Hell even the Badarians seemed to have been mixed.

"By the individual analysis of nasal measurements and indices of the first Badarian series in comparison with the mixed Europoid-Negroid series from Wadi Qitna in Nubia (fourth-fifth century AD), with the Europoid series from Manfalout in Upper Egypt (Ptolemaic period) and with a series of recent Nilotes, I came to the conclusion that the distribution of the Badarian skulls extends from the Europoid to the Negroid range."

"Of the total 117 skulls, 15 were found to be markedly Europoid, 9 of these were of the gracile Mediterranean type, 6 were of very robust structure reminiscent of the North African Cromagnon type. Eight skulls were clearly Negroid... We may conclude that the share of both components was nearly the same, with some overweight to the Europoid side."

"In some of the Badarian crania hair was preserved, thanks to good conditions in the desert sand. In the first series, according to the descriptions of the excavators, they were curly in 6 cases, wavy in 33 cases and straight in 10 cases. They were black in 16 samples, dark brown in 11, brown in 12, light brown in 1 and grey in 11 cases."

Eugen Strouhal,The Journal of African History, Vol. 12, No. 1. (1971),


Say what you want be these folks showed admixture.
 

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Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
I really don't want to get into this sh!t again. But let me ask you, if Blacks lived all the way up to the Delta region then what was the geographic limit for Blacks, and where did Middle Eatern types begin? Also why was it a limit?

Likely if Blacks reached up to the Mediterranean coast then they would have spilled over into Europe and the Middle East, or else it was Eurasians who spilled over into North Africa. I think the evidence supports the later scenario.

Why did the Egyptians portray themselves as lighter than the Nubians to the south? Why would they be lighter if Egypt is hot as hell? Why do so many Egyptians mummies have fine features and striaght or wavy hair?
With Haplogroups R and T found in Egytians, how can anyone deny that a good part of their genetic make up reflects a back to Africa migration from West Asia?

1) Who says there is a "limit" for "blacks"? Define
also who is black and who is "non-black".

2) ANd who says tropically adapted Africans did not "spill over" into Europe? In fact they did.
The Delta region by the way shows plenty of
tropically adapted African features in ancient populations.



3) And who says Egypt is "hotter than hell" uniformly? Egypt has
a variable climate- from arid desert to cooler Mediterranean zones.
Light skin in Egypt is fundamentally an environmental adaptation
of indigenous tropical Africans, who founded the Kemetian
civilization when they came from south of the Sahara.
Even Mary Lefkowitz says they came from South of the Sahara.




4) And straighter noses reflect environmental adaptation,
along with built-in native diversity. Arid dry desert
air for example tends to make noses more straight
relatively speaking, compared to broad noses in
wetter, more humid environments. Ultra diverse Africans
however do not depend on mere environmental adaptation.
BUILT-IN native diversity, the most in the world
is highest among tropical Africans. They have said
diversity even without heavy environmental determiners.




5) Wavy hair is also quite within the range of the ancient
tribes of tropical Africa.



In short, the peoples of tropical Africa are the most
diverse in the world, both in terms of built-in
native diversity which gives them a range of features
AND also environmental adaptation. They don't need


"In some of the Badarian crania hair was preserved, thanks to good conditions in the desert sand. In the first series, according to the descriptions of the excavators, they were curly in 6 cases, wavy in 33 cases and straight in 10 cases. They were black in 16 samples, dark brown in 11, brown in 12, light brown in 1 and grey in 11 cases."
Eugen Strouhal,The Journal of African History, Vol. 12, No. 1. (1971),

Eugene Strouhal circa 1971 is not only obsolete
but has long since been debunked, as the hair data above shows.
As for his "skull analysis" it is mostly based on
his extreme juxtaposition against a stereotypical
"negroid" "other", and his interpretation of any variation
from the stereotypical pigeonhole as "mixed ace."
But the "mix" is only one way. A stereotypical "true white"
only "supposed" to have straight hair is never used by Strouhal.
Under this hypocritical Euro centric race model
Blacks are not "supposed" to have any variation except some "other race" gave it to them.
On top of that, Strouhal also has some shaky claims-
like "negroids" not being in Egypt until the New
Kingdom. This has long ago since been debunked.
Most credible analyses since 1971 show Badarian skulls
clustering with those of other tropical Africans.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

djehuti says:
^ You keep repeating that there were back-migrations. The only significant back-migrations we know of only occurred during Islamic times unless you have proof--valid and uncontested proof-- of back-migrations before this.



Indeed, but even in the case of back-migrations
the "backflowees" likely looked like tropical Africans.
We all know that later in the Dynastic civ there was
more influx from Hyskos, PErsans, Assyrians,
Greeks, Romans, Arabs, etc. No one denies this.
But by the time these folks showed up, over 2000 years of Kemet civ was already underway and 'done.' And we all know that there were small-time
traders, herders, slaves, captives etc that came in small numbers
to Egypt throughout its long history. No one disputes
that at all. But these small, minor movements did not
have much effect on the core Nile Valley founding populations.


-------------------------------------------------------------

MISC EGYPTIAN DNA INFO


 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by melchior7:

quote:

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Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:

Dates from the 1400's
The term Moor predates Muslims, and it has always meant black we covered this time and again but Lioness like to keep rehashing old arguments and yes ,Djehuti every Black was a Moor but all Moors weren't Blacks especially by late medieval times, St Maurice for instance was a Moor but he was non Muslim and did not hail from North West Africa and below the Roman writer Martial inter change Moor with Ethiopians,so too did Juvenal
“Grieve not at this, poor wretch, and with thine own hand give thy wife the potion whatever is be for did she choose to bear her leaping children in her womb thou wouldst, perchance, become the sire of an Ethiop, a blackamoor would soon be your sole heir.”

- Juvenal, Satire VI, lines 596 – 600

“One of them, with wooly hair, like a Moor, seems to be the son of Santra, the cook. The second, with a flat nose and thick lips, is the image of Pannicus, the wrestler . . . of the two daughters, one is black . . . and belongs to Crotus, the flute player.”

Martial, VI, 39.

“When tired of each noblest matron, (Gildo) hands her over to the Moors. These Sidonian mothers, married in Carthage City, must needs be mate with barbarians. He thrusts upon me an Ethiopian son-in-law. This hideous hybrid affects the cradle.”
Claudian.

Read more: http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=bag&action=display&thread=25&page=3#ixzz1wqeojFyn

---

Your depiction of Blacks in hooded garments looks very interesting. But is propaganda and likely racist showing that “Blacks” are supporters of the antichrist. This does not tell what most of the Moors in Spain looked like. The Cantigas portrayed scenes from everyday life.


Again they were initially called Moros in Spain because of where they came from ( Mauretania) not because of what they looked like. Most the Berbers who crossed over into Spain were light skinned. Tarik himself was described as having red hair and an early depiction shows him to be simply a tawny Berber.







Other Europeans may have associated the word Moor for Black but they really didn’t have the concept of race as we do today. Moor just referred to swarthy people coming from the other side of the Mediterranean. When the Spanish invented the term Negro, the English and others followed suit and a clear racial distinction was made..

You may be familiar with the color ranking of the Roman Manilius. It shows that among dark peoples the mauritanians were the lighest.

In Manilius' order swarthy complexions from the most
dark to the least dark are
- Aethiopes
- India
- Aegyptia
- Afrorum
- Mauretania


This would seem to be in accordance with the majority of light brown folk we see in North Africa today.



Most Blacks brought to Spain came with the Almoravids. They were not North Africans but recruited form Senegal and Mali. It’s documented.

“Yusuf ibn Tashfin , second Almoravid leader and man destined to conquer Andalus, reorganised these armies. Original Almoravid forces had been a tribal confederation, but yusuf changed the command structure and created a personal force of black slaves and foreigners. His bodyguard consisted of 500 non-Berber horsemen, including Arabs, Turks and Europeans, supported by a further 2,000 black African cavalry. Christian mercenaries as well as converted Spanish prisoners continued to fight for the Almoravids and their successors both in Andalus and North Africa throughout the late 11th and 12th centuries.
Cavalry also became more important than camel-mounted troops, particularly when operating in Andalus. There the high number of black Africans in Almoravid armies, many recruited from Senegal on the southern frontier of the empire, had a terrifying effect on Christian morale- as did the use of massed drums, unusual forms of bow, enormously long leather shields, bamboo spears and other unfamiliar weapons. A continuing use of large number camels also unsettled the Spaniards’ horses, in fact, such animals had been known in southern Andalus since at least the 10th century.”
http://www.oocities.org/ihusselbee/crusader/moors2.htm

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Kel Aulammiden Tuareg i.e Lamtuna are from Senegal and Mali dimwit. They brought their vassals which were the Songhai (who are their blacksmiths, craftsmen and musicians, etc).

Those are the blacks who came with other black Lamtuna and Guezula or veiled men called Tuareg, silly.

The black people were in fact the original peoples named Berbers, not the Tuareg who had been only called Imoshagh or Mazikes a very tall in fact "Ethiopian" people who had badgered Egypt since the period of the Hyksos.

You can not escape who we are losers. lol! Where is the mention of a fair-skinned Berber clan before the 15th century Melchior.

Populations the color of African Americans don't count as "whites".

Neither do early Scythians "peoples of the sea" who disappeared into early non-Berber and Greco-Roman populations of Libya count as Berbers.


Which Zanata and Sanhaja clan occupants of the Aures and Kabylia were called fair in color. Which Masmuda people. Which clan of the Mauri give me some single reference to a clan of people called Mauri and Berbers that were not described as black or Nigri by Near Eastern swarthy olive-colored people.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
Americans used to call the Africans Berbers because many were Songhai Mande people. The word Berber referred to the black Nilo-Saharan groups that lived amidst the Tuareg and in some places intermingled with them forming the Masmuda and Zenata peoples otherwise called in the North Zawagha/Zaghawa, Wangaraw or Garawan (Djarawa). These are the names of the Berbers my friend originally nilo-saharans who settled along the Niger adopted Niger Congo dialects in the Sudan and the Afro-Asiatic dialects in the North.

Americans have it in their laws that "the Negro" peoples of the Niger and the Berber were the same people.lol! Wonders never cease.

SECTION 4 The term Negro is confined to slave Africans (The ancient Berbers) and their descendants. It does not embrace the free inhabitants of Africa, such as the Egyptians, Moors, or the Negro Asiatics, such as Lascars.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Indeed Zarahan. LOL The Malcontent speaks of a "mixed" population based on a variation of nasal indices yet the measurements of skeletal body proportions show NO evidence whatsoever of anything else but tropically adapted people!

quote:

---

Originally posted by malcontent7:

I can't believe you would even question pre-islamic back migrations. Is it the New Afrocentric theory now that no back migrations into North Africa ever took place? I guess I've been away too long. I guess genetics is bogus too.

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quote:

---

You say Eurasians orginated in the Central Asia. Now that's a good start. Obviously they eventually made their way down into the Arabian peninsula, no? So here is another way to ask the question, how far south did these Eurasian types extend during the early days of the Egyptian kingdom??? As you can probably guess, I firmly believe they extended well into North Africa along the coastal areas, and that the Egyptians were a fusion of tropical Africans and these people. Hell even the Badarians seemed to have been mixed.

---

quote:

---

"By the individual analysis of nasal measurements and indices of the first Badarian series in comparison with the mixed Europoid-Negroid series from Wadi Qitna in Nubia (fourth-fifth century AD), with the Europoid series from Manfalout in Upper Egypt (Ptolemaic period) and with a series of recent Nilotes, I came to the conclusion that the distribution of the Badarian skulls extends from the Europoid to the Negroid range."

"Of the total 117 skulls, 15 were found to be markedly Europoid, 9 of these were of the gracile Mediterranean type, 6 were of very robust structure reminiscent of the North African Cromagnon type. Eight skulls were clearly Negroid... We may conclude that the share of both components was nearly the same, with some overweight to the Europoid side."

"In some of the Badarian crania hair was preserved, thanks to good conditions in the desert sand. In the first series, according to the descriptions of the excavators, they were curly in 6 cases, wavy in 33 cases and straight in 10 cases. They were black in 16 samples, dark brown in 11, brown in 12, light brown in 1 and grey in 11 cases."

Eugen Strouhal,The Journal of African History, Vol. 12, No. 1. (1971),

Say what you want be these folks showed admixture.

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LOL That old Strouhal study is outdated, as it was debunked by more valid assessments by his peers, which is something we've discussed many times over in this forum.

First of all, he focuses on cranial traits such as facial and nasal indices while relying on outdated stereotypes of "negroes". You realize that narrow noses and long narrow faces are indigenous to Africa as well. If he did a study on neolithic skulls in Kenya and Tanzania he would also find similar results of "Europoid" and "Europoid-mixed" individuals!

Secondly as for the hair, the color cannot expect to be the exact same as when the person was alive since certain chemical changes like oxidation and dry air can cause the eumelanin (black pigment) in hair to be lost while phaelomelanin responsible for reddish pigment (giving hair a brownish appearance) is durable. As for the texture, again wavy texture hair is not uncommon in Sub-Sahara and is in fact very frequent among rural Saharan populations isolated from foreigners and are very dark (black) in complexion. Not to mention that Strouhal did cross-section studies of the hair showing the follicle indices to fall in the same range as "negroids" and NOT Eurasians!
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by malcontent7:


Again they were initially called Moros in Spain because of where they came from ( Mauretania) not because of what they looked like. Most the Berbers who crossed over into Spain were light skinned. Tarik himself was described as having red hair and an early depiction shows him to be simply a tawny Berber.

---

Didn't you post this picture before last year or so only to have it refuted as NOT a Medieval portrait but a picture made in MODERN times by someone out of pure imagination??
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
For all the negroes or black Moors are descendants of Cush,the son of Ham,who was the son of Noah.But whatever difference there is between the negroes and the twany Moor,it is a fact that they are all of the same ancestry.
Leo Africanus Moor of Granada Spain.

Yeah propaganda indeed but it still remained that for them the Moors who they were at war with came in the form of this guy below so there must have been a significant amount of people like him

Another towering figure was Alagolfare the Ethiopian giant of the Sowdone of Babylone,who’s "skin was black and hard." It is said that:
This Astrogot (Alagolfare) of Ethiopia, he was a king of great strength; there was none such in Europe. So strong and so long in length, I trowe (?) he were a devil's son of Bezelbubb's line." There is also the legendary fight between William of Orange (an eleventh century count of Poitiers) and Ysore (a Black Saracen giant) Ysore the Black "Saracen" giant 1250 A.D.
And I have images that I can fill the page with,but what would be the point if one still cannot come to the realization that board featured dark-skinned Africans were not auxiliaries in their own story as was said before.
 

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Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
I have to say I disagree with many of your responses. I don't know that arguing with you for any length of time will change your minds as you are fervently committed to your beliefs for various reasons. I will say this however, the earliest Africans were Khoisans and Pygmy types carrying haplogroup A and B. We know that they were the earliest inhabitant in East Africa especially Ethiopia. I am pretty sure the current phenotypical "diversity" in Ethiopia and certain other parts of East Africa..you know with regard to "Caucasian features" which y'all claim resulted from the natural adaptation to their environment.. is really due to Eurasian admixture from back migrations going back many of thousands of years. Most Berbers prior to the Moorish invasion were also greatly mixed with Eurasians. You can either be objective and acccept this or continue with your make-believin'...

I'm outta here. Peace.
 

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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
From Golden Age of the Moor:


 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by malcontent7:

I have to say I disagree with many of your responses. I don't know that arguing with you for any length of time will change your minds as you are fervently committed to your beliefs for various reasons. I will say this however, the earliest Africans were Khoisans and Pygmy types carrying haplogroup A and B. We know that they were the earliest inhabitant in East Africa especially Ethiopia. I am pretty sure the current phenotypical "diversity" in Ethiopia and certain other parts of East Africa..you know with regard to "Caucasian features" which y'all claim resulted from the natural adaptation to their environment.. is really due to Eurasian admixture from back migrations going back many of thousands of years. Most Berbers prior to the Moorish invasion were also greatly mixed with Eurasians. You can either be objective and acccept this or continue with your make-believin'...

I'm outta here. Peace.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:
[QB] and where did Middle Eatern types begin? Also why was it a limit?

Likely if Blacks reached up to the Mediterranean coast then they would have spilled over into Europe and the Middle East, or else it was Eurasians who spilled over into North Africa. I think the evidence supports the later scenario.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:Why did the Egyptians portray themselves as lighter than the Nubians to the south?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:Why would they be lighter if Egypt is hot as hell? Why do so many Egyptians mummies have fine features and striaght or wavy hair?
With Haplogroups R and T found in Egytians, how can anyone deny that a good part of their genetic make up reflects a back to Africa migration from West Asia?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ You keep repeating that there were back-migrations. The only significant back-migrations we know of only occurred during Islamic times unless you have proof--valid and uncontested proof-- of back-migrations before this.

As Brada has told you there was NO "limit" for blacks as per evidence of the multiple waves of emmigrations outside of Africa both into Southwest Asia as well as into Europe!! As for 'Middle Eastern' types, the 'Middle East' is a geo-political term of Europeans. If by Middle East you mean Southwest Asia, then there were multiple and diverse types due to its location as a crossroads with some types resembling Africans right next door while other types resembling colder-adapted Eurasian types. The latter which you are no doubt referring to when it comes to the stereotypical light-skinned Middle Easterners quite naturally first appeared in the northern most areas of the 'Middle East' and likely originated from Central Asia, the Caucasus, etc.

---

I can't believe you would even question pre islamic back migrations. Is it the New Afrocentric theory now that no back migrations into North Africa ever took place? I guess I've been away too long. I guess genetics is bogus too.

You say Eurasians orginated in the Central Asia. Now that's a good start. Obviously they eventually made their way down into the Arabian peninsula, no? So here is another way to ask the question, how far south did these Eurasian types extend during the early days of the Egyptian kingdom??? As you can probably guess, I firmly believe they extended well into North Africa along the coastal areas, and that the Egyptians were a fusion of tropical Africans and these people. Hell even the Badarians seemed to have been mixed.

"By the individual analysis of nasal measurements and indices of the first Badarian series in comparison with the mixed Europoid-Negroid series from Wadi Qitna in Nubia (fourth-fifth century AD), with the Europoid series from Manfalout in Upper Egypt (Ptolemaic period) and with a series of recent Nilotes, I came to the conclusion that the distribution of the Badarian skulls extends from the Europoid to the Negroid range."

"Of the total 117 skulls, 15 were found to be markedly Europoid, 9 of these were of the gracile Mediterranean type, 6 were of very robust structure reminiscent of the North African Cromagnon type. Eight skulls were clearly Negroid... We may conclude that the share of both components was nearly the same, with some overweight to the Europoid side."

"In some of the Badarian crania hair was preserved, thanks to good conditions in the desert sand. In the first series, according to the descriptions of the excavators, they were curly in 6 cases, wavy in 33 cases and straight in 10 cases. They were black in 16 samples, dark brown in 11, brown in 12, light brown in 1 and grey in 11 cases."

Eugen Strouhal,The Journal of African History, Vol. 12, No. 1. (1971),


Say what you want be these folks showed admixture.

---

So who exactly were those "europoid"? lol


And where is the admixture you claim, when did this happen?

But yes, multiple times it was stated that North Egypt especially the Delta region has a most admixed population.











Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions


Sonia R. Zakrzewski*


American Journal of Physical Anthropology
Volume 121, Issue 3, pages 219–229, July 2003

quote:

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Stature and the pattern of body proportions were investigated in a series of six time-successive Egyptian populations in order to investigate the biological effects on human growth of the development and intensification of agriculture, and the formation of state-level social organization. Univariate analyses of variance were performed to assess differences between the sexes and among various time periods. Significant differences were found both in stature and in raw long bone length measurements between the early semipastoral population and the later intensive agricultural population. The size differences were greater in males than in females. This disparity is suggested to be due to greater male response to poor nutrition in the earlier populations, and with the increasing development of social hierarchy, males were being provisioned preferentially over females. Little change in body shape was found through time, suggesting that all body segments were varying in size in response to environmental and social conditions. The change found in body plan is suggested to be the result of the later groups having a more tropical (Nilotic) form than the preceding populations. Am J Phys Anthropol, 2003.

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quote:

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The origins of the ancient Egyptian state and its formation have received much attention through analysis of mortuary contexts, skeletal material, and trade. Genetic diversity was analyzed by studying craniometric variation within a series of six time-successive Egyptian populations in order to investigate the evidence for migration over the period of the development of social hierarchy and the Egyptian state. Craniometric variation, based upon 16 measurements, was assessed through principal components analysis, discriminant function analysis, and Mahalanobis D2 matrix computation. Spatial and temporal relationships were assessed by Mantel and Partial Mantel tests. The results indicate overall population continuity over the Predynastic and early Dynastic, and high levels of genetic heterogeneity, thereby suggesting that state formation occurred as a mainly indigenous process. Nevertheless, significant differences were found in morphology between both geographically-pooled and cemetery-specific temporal groups, indicating that some migration occurred along the Egyptian Nile Valley over the periods studied. Am J Phys Anthropol, 2007.

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quote:

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"The clustering of the Nubian and Egyptian samples together supports this paper's hypothesis and demonstrates that there may be a close relationship between the two populations. This relationship is consistent with Berry and Berry (1972), among others, who noted a similarity between Nubians and Egyptians. If Nubians and Egyptians were not biologically similar, one would expect the scores to separately cluster by population (e.g. Nubians compared to Nubians would have small biological distances, and Nubians compared to Egyptians would have high biological distances). However, this was not the case in the current analysis and the Results suggest homogeneity between the two populations."

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quote:

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Morphological variation of the skeletal remains of ancient Nubia has been traditionally explained as a product of multiple migrations into the Nile Valley. In contrast, various researchers have noted a continuity in craniofacial variation from Mesolithic through Neolithic times. This apparent continuity could be explained by in situ cultural evolution producing shifts in selective pressures which may act on teeth, the facial complex, and the cranial vault.

A series of 13 Mesolithic skulls from Wadi Halfa, Sudan, are compared to Nubian Neolithic remains by means of extended canonical analysis. Results support recent research which suggests consistent trends of facial reduction and cranial vault expansion from Mesolithic through Neolithic times.

---

"....inhabitants of East Africa right on the equator have appreciably longer, narrower, and higher noses than people in the Congo at the same latitude. A former generation of anthropologists used to explain this paradox by invoking an invasion by an itinerant "white" population from the Mediterranean area, although this solution raised more problems than it solved since the East Africans in question include some of the blackest people in the world with characteristically wooly hair and a body build unique among the world's populations for its extreme linearity and height.... The relatively long noses of East Africa become explicable then when one realizes that much of the area is extremely dry for parts of the year." (C. Loring Brace, "Nonracial Approach Towards Human Diversity," cited in The Concept of Race, Edited by Ashley Montagu, The Free Press, 1980, pp. 135-136, 138)

















 

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Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ You keep repeating that there were back-migrations. The only significant back-migrations we know of only occurred during Islamic times unless you have proof--valid and uncontested proof-- of back-migrations before this.

As Brada has told you there was NO "limit" for blacks as per evidence of the multiple waves of emmigrations outside of Africa both into Southwest Asia as well as into Europe!! As for 'Middle Eastern' types, the 'Middle East' is a geo-political term of Europeans. If by Middle East you mean Southwest Asia, then there were multiple and diverse types due to its location as a crossroads with some types resembling Africans right next door while other types resembling colder-adapted Eurasian types. The latter which you are no doubt referring to when it comes to the stereotypical light-skinned Middle Easterners quite naturally first appeared in the northern most areas of the 'Middle East' and likely originated from Central Asia, the Caucasus, etc.

---

I can't believe you would even question pre islamic back migrations. Is it the New Afrocentric theory now that no back migrations into North Africa ever took place? I guess I've been away too long. I guess genetics is bogus too.

You say Eurasians orginated in the Central Asia. Now that's a good start. Obviously they eventually made their way down into the Arabian peninsula, no? So here is another way to ask the question, how far south did these Eurasian types extend during the early days of the Egyptian kingdom??? As you can probably guess, I firmly believe they extended well into North Africa along the coastal areas, and that the Egyptians were a fusion of tropical Africans and these people. Hell even the Badarians seemed to have been mixed.

"By the individual analysis of nasal measurements and indices of the first Badarian series in comparison with the mixed Europoid-Negroid series from Wadi Qitna in Nubia (fourth-fifth century AD), with the Europoid series from Manfalout in Upper Egypt (Ptolemaic period) and with a series of recent Nilotes, I came to the conclusion that the distribution of the Badarian skulls extends from the Europoid to the Negroid range."

"Of the total 117 skulls, 15 were found to be markedly Europoid, 9 of these were of the gracile Mediterranean type, 6 were of very robust structure reminiscent of the North African Cromagnon type. Eight skulls were clearly Negroid... We may conclude that the share of both components was nearly the same, with some overweight to the Europoid side."

"In some of the Badarian crania hair was preserved, thanks to good conditions in the desert sand. In the first series, according to the descriptions of the excavators, they were curly in 6 cases, wavy in 33 cases and straight in 10 cases. They were black in 16 samples, dark brown in 11, brown in 12, light brown in 1 and grey in 11 cases."

Eugen Strouhal,The Journal of African History, Vol. 12, No. 1. (1971),


Say what you want be these folks showed admixture.

---

Yale Egyptological Institute in Egypt

Early Neolithic to Predynastic/A-Group

"Remains in the immediate eastern foreland of Kurkur, just east of the Sinn el-Kiddab escarpment, are sparse. Numerous and widely distributed hearth mounds18 occur in the area. Pottery, though sparse, further demonstrates the association of early Nile Valley and Western Desert cultures. "

http://www.yale.edu/egyptology/ae_kurkur.htm












The Wadi of the Horus Qa-a:
A Tableau of Royal Ritual Power in the Theban Western Desert

John Coleman Darnell 1

http://www.yale.edu/egyptology/ae_alamat_wadi_horus.htm


Baboon mummy analysis reveals Eritrea and Ethiopia as location of land of Punt

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/history/baboon-mummy-analysis-reveals-eritrea-and-ethiopia-as-location-of-land-of-punt-1954547.html

quote:

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Northern Egypt near the Mediterranean shows the same pattern- limb length data puts its peoples closer to tropically adapted Africans that cold climate Europeans

"...sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into southern Palestine.


The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans."

---

quote:

---

"When the Elephantine results were added to a broader pooling of the physical characteristics drawn from a wide geographic region which includes Africa, the Mediterranean and the Near East quite strong affinities emerge between Elephantine and populations from Nubia, supporting a strong south-north cline."

---

Barry Kemp. (2006) Ancient Egypt: Anatomy of a Civilization. p. 54



 

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Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:
I have to say I disagree with many of your responses. I don't know that arguing with you for any length of time will change your minds as you are fervently committed to your beliefs for various reasons. I will say this however, the earliest Africans were Khoisans and Pygmy types carrying haplogroup A and B. We know that they were the earliest inhabitant in East Africa especially Ethiopia. I am pretty sure the current phenotypical "diversity" in Ethiopia and certain other parts of East Africa..you know with regard to "Caucasian features" which y'all claim resulted from the natural adaptation to their environment.. is really due to Eurasian admixture from back migrations going back many of thousands of years. Most Berbers prior to the Moorish invasion were also greatly mixed with Eurasians. You can either be objective and acccept this or continue with your make-believin'...

I'm outta here. Peace.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Omo Baba:
^So Duncie, tell us when did this "eurasian admixture" came to east Africa?

Omo I Homo sapiens remain from Ethiopia 190,000 years ago

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Melchior

quote:

---

But let me ask you, if Blacks lived all the way up to the Delta region then what was the geographic limit for Blacks, and where did Middle Eatern types begin? Also why as it a limit?

---

Who said there was any geographic limits for Blacks, Blacks live all way out in the pacific the ancients certainly did not believe that,nor do genetics and again Kemet for most of it's history was oriented towards inner Africa,only with the arrival of powerful states did they even bothered taking the Med and beyond seriously,namely the Hyksos and the Hittites at first.

---

There were early neolithic populations in the Delta area early on.

Also Blacks in the Pacific have nothing to do with Blacks in Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ You keep repeating that there were back-migrations. The only significant back-migrations we know of only occurred during Islamic times unless you have proof--valid and uncontested proof-- of back-migrations before this.

As Brada has told you there was NO "limit" for blacks as per evidence of the multiple waves of emmigrations outside of Africa both into Southwest Asia as well as into Europe!! As for 'Middle Eastern' types, the 'Middle East' is a geo-political term of Europeans. If by Middle East you mean Southwest Asia, then there were multiple and diverse types due to its location as a crossroads with some types resembling Africans right next door while other types resembling colder-adapted Eurasian types. The latter which you are no doubt referring to when it comes to the stereotypical light-skinned Middle Easterners quite naturally first appeared in the northern most areas of the 'Middle East' and likely originated from Central Asia, the Caucasus, etc.

---

I can't believe you would even question pre islamic back migrations. Is it the New Afrocentric theory now that no back migrations into North Africa ever took place? I guess I've been away too long. I guess genetics is bogus too.

You say Eurasians orginated in the Central Asia. Now that's a good start. Obviously they eventually made their way down into the Arabian peninsula, no? So here is another way to ask the question, how far south did these Eurasian types extend during the early days of the Egyptian kingdom??? As you can probably guess, I firmly believe they extended well into North Africa along the coastal areas, and that the Egyptians were a fusion of tropical Africans and these people. Hell even the Badarians seemed to have been mixed.

"By the individual analysis of nasal measurements and indices of the first Badarian series in comparison with the mixed Europoid-Negroid series from Wadi Qitna in Nubia (fourth-fifth century AD), with the Europoid series from Manfalout in Upper Egypt (Ptolemaic period) and with a series of recent Nilotes, I came to the conclusion that the distribution of the Badarian skulls extends from the Europoid to the Negroid range."

"Of the total 117 skulls, 15 were found to be markedly Europoid, 9 of these were of the gracile Mediterranean type, 6 were of very robust structure reminiscent of the North African Cromagnon type. Eight skulls were clearly Negroid... We may conclude that the share of both components was nearly the same, with some overweight to the Europoid side."

"In some of the Badarian crania hair was preserved, thanks to good conditions in the desert sand. In the first series, according to the descriptions of the excavators, they were curly in 6 cases, wavy in 33 cases and straight in 10 cases. They were black in 16 samples, dark brown in 11, brown in 12, light brown in 1 and grey in 11 cases."

Eugen Strouhal,The Journal of African History, Vol. 12, No. 1. (1971),


Say what you want be these folks showed admixture.

---

quote:

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Pharaoh Ptolemy I

Black basalt bust of Pharaoh Ptolemy I of Egypt, dating from the 4th century BC, which was the period of the 30th Dynasty.

Ptolemy I was also known as Ptolemy Soter, meaning 'saviour', and before becoming Pharaoh of Egypt, was a Macedonian general who served under Alexander the Great. With Alexander, he served in many military campaigns, including those in India, Babylon, Persia, and Afghanistan. After Alexander's death, Ptolemy was appointed Satrap (governor) of Egypt, and later took the title of Pharaoh, founding the Ptolemaic dynasty.

---

quote:

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Series
The Cambridge Ancient History

Volume 3 Part 3
The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C.

Chapter Title
Chapter 36b: The Greeks in Egypt

Publication Date
1982

Author
T. F. R. G. Braun
Digital Object Identifier (DOI)
10.1017/CHOL9780521234474.003


Overview
Greek-Egyptian relations before Psammetichus I

Greeks arrived to settle in Egypt in the reign of Psammetichus I (664–610 B.C.). For the period that follows, Herodotus found that Egyptian and non-Egyptian information could be combined (II. 147). Thanks to Greek settlers mingling with the Egyptians, knowledge was now accurate (II. 154). Significantly, no Greek pottery datable to the period between Mycenaean times and 664 B.C. has so far been found in Egypt. Egyptian trinkets, on the other hand, were reaching the Greek world in the eighth century, and a bronze Egyptian jug at Lefkandi in Euboea would seem to date back as far as the ninth. These could have arrived by way of Phoenicia or Cyprus.

Some contact then, even if indirect, there must have been in the disturbed century before Psammetichus I. The Greeks retained some recollection of the Egyptian history of this time. We have seen how the king of Ethiopia and Egypt, who must have been Shabako (c. 716–c. 702 B.C.) in 711 surrendered Yamani of Ashdod, possibly a Greek (above, p. 16). This ‘Sabakōs’ is an historical figure for Herodotus (II. 137, 139) who in the fifth century could get a fair amount of information about the 25th (Nubian or Kushite) dynasty. Shabako's enemy was the delta king Bakenrenef son of Tefnakhte (c. 720–715 ?), whom he eventually captured and burnt alive. Bakenrenef, as Bocchoris, was to figure in Greek imagination, though Herodotus does not mention him. He is celebrated as a sagacious lawgiver in the Egyptian account of Diodorus (I. 45, 65, 79, 94) which derives from earlier Greek writing – probably in large measure from Hecataeus of Abdera, c. 300 B.C.

---

 

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Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
As I repeat,


Comparisons of linear body proportions of Old Kingdom and non-Old Kingdom period individuals, and workers and high officials in our sample found no statistically significant differences among them. Zakrzewski (2003) also found little evidence for differences in linear body proportions of Egyptians over a wider temporal range.

























 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ I presume Malcontent would count all these rural Egyptian men above to be 'mixed' since we all know how 'pure' (true) negroes look like. LOL

Notice how he ignored my more detailed postings especially about neolithic skulls showing "Europoid" traits in Kenya and Tanzania.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
You people are really a trip. lol!. What I know is that you are definitely as block headed as your Neanderdull brethren. That's what I know. Are you telling me Berbers did not give anything to Moorish Spain.

Here is one thing of many things for you to learn about the black people called Berbers. The word for horsmanship in Spain "Jinete" is derived from the Zenetes or Zanata Berbers i.e. Zaghawa or Azuwagha horsemen.

"Originally, it meant a type of light cavalryman, proficient at skirmishing and rapid maneuver."

They also brought the jousting and javelins into Iberia, probably much like what was happening in the region of Bornu among Zaghawa related peoples there.


BTW - The sholarly i.e. non-Euronut sources on the Cantigas say they depict Muslims not necessarily Berbers and Arabs. in fact it is recognized they could be depicting people from anywhere in the Middle East.


So your Euronut site explanation is not going to work here.

The word Moor was a synonym for Negro among Mozarabs and I am just explaining why.


Hydraulics of course is another wonderful introduction of the Africans whose ancestors were the "pitch black" Garamantes, Gamphasantes Ghadmusii, Tidamensii and other peoples who possessed complex systems of irrigation and hydraulics as early as 4000 years ago.


A foggara of Gourara a town of Central Algeria, where live Zanata berbers. The technology for Afro Berber irrigation practices dates back thousands of years.

You are pitiful. Why are you so jealous of these Africans.

They are descendants of the Ibadites and Kharijites pushed southwards by later Arab invaders from northern parts of eastern Maghreb.

---

Let’s not start flinging insults so early in the game. And you don’t know what race I am but if it means anything to you, I am not white. Let me start by saying that I find it interesting that you would think that a stretch of water eight miles wide between Spain and North Africa would act as such an effective racial barrier where you would have Whites and one side and Blacks on the other despite the archaeological and historical evidence which shows migrations gong back and forth from continent to continent over many millennia.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

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Originally posted by malcontent7:


Again they were initially called Moros in Spain because of where they came from ( Mauretania) not because of what they looked like. Most the Berbers who crossed over into Spain were light skinned. Tarik himself was described as having red hair and an early depiction shows him to be simply a tawny Berber.

---

Didn't you post this picture before last year or so only to have it refuted as NOT a Medieval portrait but a picture made in MODERN times by someone out of pure imagination??

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
You people are really a trip. lol!. What I know is that you are definitely as block headed as your Neanderdull brethren. That's what I know. Are you telling me Berbers did not give anything to Moorish Spain.

Here is one thing of many things for you to learn about the black people called Berbers. The word for horsmanship in Spain "Jinete" is derived from the Zenetes or Zanata Berbers i.e. Zaghawa or Azuwagha horsemen.

"Originally, it meant a type of light cavalryman, proficient at skirmishing and rapid maneuver."

They also brought the jousting and javelins into Iberia, probably much like what was happening in the region of Bornu among Zaghawa related peoples there.


BTW - The sholarly i.e. non-Euronut sources on the Cantigas say they depict Muslims not necessarily Berbers and Arabs. in fact it is recognized they could be depicting people from anywhere in the Middle East.


So your Euronut site explanation is not going to work here.

The word Moor was a synonym for Negro among Mozarabs and I am just explaining why.


Hydraulics of course is another wonderful introduction of the Africans whose ancestors were the "pitch black" Garamantes, Gamphasantes Ghadmusii, Tidamensii and other peoples who possessed complex systems of irrigation and hydraulics as early as 4000 years ago.


A foggara of Gourara a town of Central Algeria, where live Zanata berbers. The technology for Afro Berber irrigation practices dates back thousands of years.

You are pitiful. Why are you so jealous of these Africans.

They are descendants of the Ibadites and Kharijites pushed southwards by later Arab invaders from northern parts of eastern Maghreb.

---

...
As far as the Garamantes, I take nothing from them. I don’t know what their race was as there are varying reports. For example Herodotus claims they chased after Black trogolodytes. Others claim they were Blacks. But yet they have had the highest frequencies of Mtdna H1 a European marker than anywhere else in the world.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:
I have to say I disagree with many of your responses. I don't know that arguing with you for any length of time will change your minds as you are fervently committed to your beliefs for various reasons. I will say this however, the earliest Africans were Khoisans and Pygmy types carrying haplogroup A and B. We know that they were the earliest inhabitant in East Africa especially Ethiopia. I am pretty sure the current phenotypical "diversity" in Ethiopia and certain other parts of East Africa..you know with regard to "Caucasian features" which y'all claim resulted from the natural adaptation to their environment.. is really due to Eurasian admixture from back migrations going back many of thousands of years. Most Berbers prior to the Moorish invasion were also greatly mixed with Eurasians. You can either be objective and acccept this or continue with your make-believin'...

I'm outta here. Peace.

---

Hammer the second. You will never no peace. I guarantee it.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Other than pockets of Foreign migrants in later Times, you have proof to back up your claim that "Lower Egyptians were not Black" as opposed that Upper Egyptians were "Mostly" blacks

quote:

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"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas." (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York: Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)

---

quote:

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Originally posted by melchior7:
The ones in upper Egypt were mostly Balck. But not those in lower Egypt.

---

---

I really don't want to get into this sh!t again. But let me ask you, if Blacks lived all the way up to the Delta region then what was the geographic limit for Blacks, and where did Middle Eatern types begin? Also why was it a limit?

Likely if Blacks reached up to the Mediterranean coast then they would have spilled over into Europe and the Middle East, or else it was Eurasians who spilled over into North Africa. I think the evidence supports the later scenario.

Why did the Egyptians portray themselves as lighter than the Nubians to the south? Why would they be lighter if Egypt is hot as hell? Why do so many Egyptians mummies have fine features and striaght or wavy hair?
With Haplogroups R and T found in Egytians, how can anyone deny that a good part of their genetic make up reflects a back to Africa migration from West Asia?


Something I just found:

"There is an Egyptian-specific component, of West Eurasian affinity (look at the Fst table), what implies that it's surely descendant of the pre-Neolithic Egyptians of Asian origin. Paleolithic Egyptians that I presume existed based on other genetics (mtDNA X1, M1 and such), as well as Eurasian-like iconography like the Qurta rock art, similar to materials from SW Europe and Anatolia (but admittedly the Egyptian Paleolithic, with a few exceptions, is not well known on archaeological grounds being such a sedimentary and then desertic area overall, and also because archaeology in Egypt has been largely focused on the quite impressive pharaonic period).


This Egyptian-specific component represents 29% of one sample but only 19% of the other one, being also of some relevance in Ethiopia (9%). This and other differences between the two samples suggest some structure to be unveiled within Egypt but I lack the means (diverse enough samples) to do it. Anyhow the two samples are only somewhat different.

Besides this component, Egyptians show a diverse array of external influences, possibly Neolithic immigrants (?). The most important ones are the Kurdish or Highland West Asian component (17-20%) and the two Arab components together (14-25%) but others (Berber, Palestinian, East African) are also quite influential. The Iberian influence was largely a mirage (although still weights 4-8%)".

http://forwhattheywereweare.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/egyptian-autosomal-genetics-in-the-regional-context-quick-admixture-run/

NEVER FORGET that Egypt is not deep into Africa but at the crossroads bordering the Mediterrean and the Middle East!

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Kurds?! You will forever be a wacko like your brethren incapable of separating the current north Levant descended Egyptians from ancient Great lakes African pharaohs!


Lascaux cave art comparable to Qurta of Kom ombo.

"Can one speak of direct influence or cultural exchange over such a long distance? It is not as improbable as it seems. Finds of Pleistocene rock art in southern Italy and Sicily bear analogies to the Egyptian rock art. In northern Libya, near the coast, a cave site is known with similar naturalistic images of aurochs. Considering the fact that the level of the Mediterranean Sea at the time of the last Ice Age was at least 100m lower than it is today, it cannot be excluded that Palaeolithic people established an intercontinental exchange of iconographic and symbolic concepts."

Now you are telling me you can't see the difference between these Africans and you Europeans!

Moral: Don't confuse black Eurasians with you Europeans.
 

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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by malcontent7:


Again they were initially called Moros in Spain because of where they came from ( Mauretania) not because of what they looked like. Most the Berbers who crossed over into Spain were light skinned. Tarik himself was described as having red hair and an early depiction shows him to be simply a tawny Berber.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Didn't you post this picture before last year or so only to have it refuted as NOT a Medieval portrait but a picture made in MODERN times by someone out of pure imagination??

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

---

Originally posted by malcontent7:


Again they were initially called Moros in Spain because of where they came from ( Mauretania) not because of what they looked like. Most the Berbers who crossed over into Spain were light skinned. Tarik himself was described as having red hair and an early depiction shows him to be simply a tawny Berber.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Didn't you post this picture before last year or so only to have it refuted as NOT a Medieval portrait but a picture made in MODERN times by someone out of pure imagination??

---

no such refutation was made

There are three different accounts of Tariq ibn Ziyad origins given by Arabic histories.

1) He was a Persian from Hamadan.
2) He was an Arab of the Sadf tribe.
3) He was a Berber from North Africa.

The 13th-century historian Ibn Idhari states he was from the Ulhasa (French: Oulhaça) tribe.
the Ulhasa originate from a branch of the Nefzaouas people and part of the Zeneta .

According to Ibn Khaldun, the Ulhasa could be found at that time on both sides of the Tafna river in Tlemcen, Algeria.
Most historians, Arab and Spanish, seem to agree that he was a slave of the emir of Ifriqiya (North Africa), Musa bin Nusayr, who gave him his freedom and appointed him a general in his army. But his descendants centuries later denied he had ever been Musa's slave.

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If he was a Hasa of the Nafzawa that would make it even less likely that he was "red haired" unless he was of course using henna.

Modern Jebel Nafusa Berbers certainly don't look much like that painting. Neither did the Zanata of Ibn Khaldun's time evidently since he writes of people saying Berbers were black because they were cursed descendants of Canaan and claimed the Zanata were the largest of the Berber tribes of his day.

Sergi describes the peoples of the oases of Nafzawa and Wed Suef and Wed Regh and other Berbers of the Sus as “of very dark complexion” in Guiseppi Sergi The Mediterranean Race.
 

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Posted by HERU (Member # 6085) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
If he was a Hasa of the Nafzawa that would make it even less likely that he was "red haired" unless he was of course using henna.

Modern Jebel Nafusa Berbers certainly don't look much like that painting. Neither did the Zanata of Ibn Khaldun's time evidently since he writes of people saying Berbers were black because they were cursed descendants of Canaan and claimed the Zanata were the largest of the Berber tribes of his day.

Sergi describes the peoples of the oases of Nafzawa and Wed Suef and Wed Regh and other Berbers of the Sus as “of very dark complexion” in Guiseppi Sergi The Mediterranean Race. [/QB]

---

quote:

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Originally posted by HERU:

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
If he was a Hasa of the Nafzawa that would make it even less likely that he was "red haired" unless he was of course using henna.

Modern Jebel Nafusa Berbers certainly don't look much like that painting. Neither did the Zanata of Ibn Khaldun's time evidently since he writes of people saying Berbers were black because they were cursed descendants of Canaan and claimed the Zanata were the largest of the Berber tribes of his day.

Sergi describes the peoples of the oases of Nafzawa and Wed Suef and Wed Regh and other Berbers of the Sus as “of very dark complexion” in Guiseppi Sergi The Mediterranean Race.

---

What's more, Ibn Khaldun called himself correcting other historians but he relied, like them, on biblical mythology.

“Ham, having become black because of a curse pronounced against him by his father, fled to the Maghrib to hide in shame...Berber, son of Kesloudjim [Casluhim], one of his descendants, left numerous posterity in the Maghrib." - Ibn Khaldun, Histoire I, 177–178 [/QB]

---

But at least the Andalusian Khaldun said that most people believed this is why the Berbers of his time (14th century) were black, and incidentally that Central Arabia, Hijaz and Yemen etc were a "zone of Sudan".
 

---

Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HERU:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
If he was a Hasa of the Nafzawa that would make it even less likely that he was "red haired" unless he was of course using henna.

Modern Jebel Nafusa Berbers certainly don't look much like that painting. Neither did the Zanata of Ibn Khaldun's time evidently since he writes of people saying Berbers were black because they were cursed descendants of Canaan and claimed the Zanata were the largest of the Berber tribes of his day.

Sergi describes the peoples of the oases of Nafzawa and Wed Suef and Wed Regh and other Berbers of the Sus as “of very dark complexion” in Guiseppi Sergi The Mediterranean Race.

---

What's more, Ibn Khaldun called himself correcting other historians but he relied, like them, on biblical mythology.

“Ham, having become black because of a curse pronounced against him by his father, fled to the Maghrib to hide in shame...Berber, son of Kesloudjim [Casluhim], one of his descendants, left numerous posterity in the Maghrib." - Ibn Khaldun, Histoire I, 177–178

---

But at least the Andalusian Khaldun said that most people believed this is why the Berbers of his time (14th century) were black, and incidentally that Central Arabia, Hijaz and Yemen etc were a "zone of Sudan". [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HERU:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
If he was a Hasa of the Nafzawa that would make it even less likely that he was "red haired" unless he was of course using henna.

Modern Jebel Nafusa Berbers certainly don't look much like that painting. Neither did the Zanata of Ibn Khaldun's time evidently since he writes of people saying Berbers were black because they were cursed descendants of Canaan and claimed the Zanata were the largest of the Berber tribes of his day.

Sergi describes the peoples of the oases of Nafzawa and Wed Suef and Wed Regh and other Berbers of the Sus as “of very dark complexion” in Guiseppi Sergi The Mediterranean Race.

---

What's more, Ibn Khaldun called himself correcting other historians but he relied, like them, on biblical mythology.

“Ham, having become black because of a curse pronounced against him by his father, fled to the Maghrib to hide in shame...Berber, son of Kesloudjim [Casluhim], one of his descendants, left numerous posterity in the Maghrib." - Ibn Khaldun, Histoire I, 177–178

---

But at least the Andalusian Khaldun said that most people believed this is why the Berbers of his time (14th century) were black, and incidentally that Central Arabia, Hijaz and Yemen etc were a "zone of Sudan".

---

"The Christians of Iberia used the term Moor to describe all the Muslims black and not black at that time."[/QB]

---

quote:

---

"The Moors who invaded Iberia were largely Berber who came from the ancient Roman provinces in costal North Africa, Numidia and Mauretania."

---

quote:

---

"You could redefine what the world calls "Berber" and say Berbers are only 100% indigenous Africans. "

---

The word Berber has already been redefined by north african nationalists, Neandernutcase.

If you don't mind we are all here just learning about and explaining why Moors were called black as night (Isidore)as pitch Corippus, as ravens (Corippus), as ink (Chanson de Roland)for so long and why in Spanish-speaking countries like Ecuador EVEN TODAY variants of the word still mean "NEGRO".


You do know that in the earliest periods even before the "black-skinned negroid" Masmuda ruled Almohades and the Tuareg dominated Almoravids, negroid black-skinned Berbers including Negroid Zanata and Masmuda and Azuwagh along with Tuareg and black Arabians were the predominant Muslims in Spain - hence the phrase "MOORISH SPAIN"!

Over 900,000 Berbers according to Aline Angoustoures i.e. black-skinned Masmuda (Barghuwata, Gumeri etc), Garawa and Zawagha clans of the Zanata and near black Tuareg (Sanhaja,Zanata, Gaezula) Africans were at one time settled in Iberia.
I know it hurts, but youll get it over it one day.
 

---

Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

Exactly and the Syrians, Iranians, Andalusians call all of them "black-skinned".

---

correct all the above people would be regarded as black by the ancient writers

Before the Moors invaded Iberia there was Carthage, founded by Phoenicians, populated by half a million people in the same region that was to become the Roman Provinces of Numidia and Mauritania

Carthage


Numidia [11] and Mauritania [25]



the picture is obvious,most of these regions overlap, the foreignes who came into the area did not disappear. They became Muslims and joined the invasion

.
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

Exactly and the Syrians, Iranians, Andalusians call all of them "black-skinned".

---

correct all the above people would be regarded as black by the ancient writers

Before the Moors invaded Iberia there was Carthage, founded by Phoenicians, populated by half a million people in the same region that was to become the Roman Provinces of Numidia and Mauritania

Carthage


Numidia [11] and Mauritania [25]



the picture is obvious,most of these regions overlap, the foreignes who came into the area did not disappear. They became Muslims and joined the invasion

.

---

It's funny how you wholeheartedly fight with tooth and nail every contribution of the African. Trying to reduce it at every cost. Now it has even come to the point, where you now are making up sh*t again. It's "science fiction" in the true sense of the word.


Why don't you go into details like Dana does? Is it because you lack the actual knowledge? Instead of generalizing with baseless random picture spamming.


So many times it has been explained the coastal North Africans have mostly admixture or are at times completely foreign to the continent. I wonder, when will it sink into your thick skull?






 

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Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
Am J Phys Anthropol. 1996 Mar;99(3):413-28.

Cranial variation in the Iberian Peninsula and the Balearic Islands: inferences about the history of the population.

Fox et. al

A multivariate analysis of four prehistoric and nine historic populations from the Iberian Peninsula and Balearic Islands with large sample sizes (n > 30 individuals for the neurocranium and n > 15 for the facial skeleton) is presented, considering 874 male and 557 female skulls and using 20 craniometric measurements. Cluster analyses have been undertaken using the squared Euclidean distance as a measure of proximity and the average linkage between groups (UPGMA), and neighbor-joining algorithms as a branching method, and a bootstrap analysis was used to assess the robustness of the clustering topology. The study was complemented with a principal coordinate analysis and with the application of the Mantel test to measure the degree of correspondence between the information furnished by the female and the male samples. The analyses show that the main source of morphometric variability in the Iberian Peninsula is the Basque population. The second source of variation is provided by two populations (Muslims and Jews), different from the rest from an archaeological and cultural point of view, and can probably be attributed to influences from sub-Saharan Africa. The massive deportations of the Jews in 1492 and of the Moors between the 15th and 17th centuries may have erased this source of variability from the present population of the Iberian Peninsula. The remaining studied populations, including samples from Castile, Cantabria, Andalusia, Catalonia and Balearic Islands, are grouped together, showing a notable morphological homogeneity, despite their temporal and geographic heterogeneity. These results are in general agreement with those obtained in synthetic maps, by analyzing multiple genetic markers. In such studies, the Basque population is described as the main source of genetic variability, not only in the Iberian Peninsula, but also in Western Europe.


Polimorfismos de DNA mitocondrial en poblaciones antiguas de la cuenca mediterránea.


Fernández Domínguez, E. et al.

(2005)

The presence of almost 50% of sub-Saharan lineages L1b, L2 and L3 in Abauntz Chalcolithic deposits and Tres Montes, in Navarre, suggests the existence of an important gene flow from Africa to this geographic region.


The low frequency of these lineages in the current Spanish population indicates that it has gene produced a replacement from the Chalcolithic period.


The entry of African lineages could occur during the Paleolithic, during the Neolithic period, or during both periods.


The phylogenetically related sequences present in the Chalcolithic deposit Iberian Peninsula and Neolithic and Chalcolithic samples of the Middle East points to Neolithic as most likely time of entry into the peninsula of these lineages.


Description: SUMMARY OF DOCTORAL THESIS The origins of European populations have been addressed from different disciplines, highlighting the contribution of population genetics studies. Shuffle two moments in prehistory in which it has been possible to model the gene pool of populations in Europe: the spread of Neolithic and Palaeolithic period expansions. The ability to recover from bygone population genetics provides a unique opportunity to test the assumptions made in situ from other disciplines. We studied 197 samples from 115 dental and bone individuals 17 archaeological sites Sumerian Neolithic and Middle East, when Meroitic Nubia and Paleolithic era, post-Neolithic and Neolithic of the Iberian Peninsula. We obtained complete sequences of mitochondrial DNA of 244 bp of 35 different individuals, were compared with sequences from the same region of present individuals from 38 populations in Europe, Africa and Middle East. In phylogenetic reconstructions based on Reynolds distance groups of ancient samples are grouped together, separated from the rest of current populations. However, phylogenetic reconstructions made from the haplotypes of ancient and modern samples denote that although the majority of ancient mitochondrial variants are not present in current populations sampled, may relate more or less closely with them. The composition of haplotypes and haplogroups of ancient samples from the Near East and the Iberian Peninsula differs markedly from that found in the current populations of these geographical regions. In the ancient Middle East show highlights in particular the absence of mitochondrial haplogroup J, U3, W and X, associated with the Neolithic expansion into Europe. This may be due either to the sample obtained is not old chronologically or geographically-representative populations of the Middle East that spread during the Neolithic well that these variants were not introduced in Europe during the Neolithic. In the ancient sample of the Iberian Peninsula highlights the presence of 50% of sub-Saharan lines. These lines may have been introduced during the Solutrean, the Mesolithic or Neolithic. This work also delved into various technical aspects of obtaining authentic ancient DNA and the influence of several variables in the preservation of genetic material. ABSTRACT The origins of the European Populations Studied extensively from Have Been Different disciplines. It is Thought That ancient demic expansions, like occurred After the Late Those Glacial Maximum or DURING the Middle East from neolithic diffussion to Europe. The Possibility to recover DNA from past Populations offers an unique Opportunity to test in situ These hypothesis. 197 It Were Analyzed teeth and bones from 115 individuos Archaeological Sites and 17 Different from Middle East and the Iberian Peninsula. It WAS possible to recover mitochondrial DNA sequences 244pb-35 from Different Individuals. They Were 38 Compared to sequences from European, African and Middle Eastern Populations present-day. Phylogenetic Reconstructions from Reynolds genetic distance Showed That ancient samples clustered together, extant from Clearly Separated Populations. Howeve, based phylogenetic Reconstructions on ancient and modern mitochondrial haplotypes Showed That ancient haplotypes are related to extant ones. Haplotype frequencies and haplogroup in samples from the ancient Middle East and the Iberian Peninsula are Different from Those Clearly present in the Same Geographical Nowadays regions. Haplogroups related to J neolithic expansion to Europe, U3, W and X-are absent in ancient middle eastern sample. There are two possible Explanations to this fact. First, It Could Be That the ancient samples possible Analyzed wont be representative of the Middle Eastern Populations That expanded the neolithic. Second, It Could Be That Those haplogroups Also possible wont Have Been made to them in Europe associated with expansions to neolithic demic. At This work It Were Also Examined technical Several Aspects related to the obtention of genuine ancient DNA and the Influence of Different variables in DNA preservation.



 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

Exactly and the Syrians, Iranians, Andalusians call all of them "black-skinned".

---

correct all the above people would be regarded as black by the ancient writers

Before the Moors invaded Iberia there was Carthage, founded by Phoenicians, populated by half a million people in the same region that was to become the Roman Provinces of Numidia and Mauritania

Carthage


Numidia [11] and Mauritania [25]



the picture is obvious,most of these regions overlap, the foreignes who came into the area did not disappear. They became Muslims and joined the invasion

.

---

Sorry Patrol - you misunderstood me. I said Syrian, Roman and Iranian looking people like these referred to ALL Berbers as blacks. So Syrians and Romans didn't consider themselves black. And neither do I.

Neanderdummy here is trying to confuse matters as usual. I, like the Syrians and Persians personally don't see anything black about Romans and Syrians like other people on this site. But people from Sweden where this white woman is apparently from - judging from her original profile - do.

Obama and millions of other African Americans who are not mulattos who are the color of Tuareg look nothing like Romans and Syrians regardless of what Neanderdummy thinks camera lighting can do and neither did the Garamantes, whom theyGreeks like Ptolemy 2 said were "more like Ethiopians" than Libyans.




So I am not sure what her point is. Although that it is true very black people in Africa have asked Richard Pryor if he is Italian and will call woolly haired African Americans white, and very white skinned people in Europe/Sweden will call Turks black. One is mostly African in origin, and one is clearly not - but rather in fact directly related to other hairsute non-African Eurasiatic people.

Of course North Africans being where they are display a variety of traits - the fairer ones in particular exhibiting stronger links to the Levant and Europe than they do to African AMericans and Saharan Africans.

And since modern Tuareg like modern African Americans for the most part are not purely representative of their ancient AFrican ancestors i.e. black people. I'm not sure what she keeps posting them for.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

Exactly and the Syrians, Iranians, Andalusians call all of them "black-skinned".

---

correct all the above people would be regarded as black by the ancient writers

Before the Moors invaded Iberia there was Carthage, founded by Phoenicians, populated by half a million people in the same region that was to become the Roman Provinces of Numidia and Mauritania

Carthage


Numidia [11] and Mauritania [25]



the picture is obvious,most of these regions overlap, the foreignes who came into the area did not disappear. They became Muslims and joined the invasion

.

---

It's funny how you wholeheartedly fight with tooth and nail every contribution of the African. Trying to reduce it at every cost. Now it has even come to the point, where you now are making up sh*t again. It's "science fiction" in the true sense of the word.


Why don't you go into details like Dana does? Is it because you lack the actual knowledge? Instead of generalizing with baseless random picture spamming.


So many times it has been explained the coastal North Africans have mostly admixture or are at times completely foreign to the continent. I wonder, when will it sink into your thick skull?

---

Yes it is probably a Neanderthick skull that a baseball wouldn't make a dent in. However, I am certain the Neandernut blockheadedness this wacko exhibits like other wackos persistently is based on jealousy of blacks. Only some kind of animal half-crazed with jealousy could be that persistent in its irrationality and attempt to sabotage like a Ku Klux Klansmen or an perhaps autistic person of some sort.
There is literally something wrong with them. The woman hasn't said a single thing in support of black culture outside of slavery on this site. We are not allowed to exist except accept in Tarzan movies. This is why not only do I not take her seriously anymore but she is in my book rather diabolical and was very likely brought up racist.
Now because black people are expressing themselves and are able to discover their roots she feels threatened. It literally hurts them physically. They feel pain when they realize they are not the tanned Pharaohs. This is the way certain kinds of white people are in the United States in fact trollpatrol and in fact in AFrica. There are still places here where you have to walk in the back of the restaurant if you are black in the United States, and it is a large part of the reason we have such a backlash against Obama.

They literally can not stand the fact that he is black. They are used to thinking of themselves as better than "the Negro" so they will do everything in their power to attack him for the silliest reasons and furthermore show him disrespect that they have shown no other president.



Now a white Mediterranean man such as this isn't allowed to claim his heritage European because other white Neanderdummies would like to make them into ancient Egyptians and the like, so they can say at least we were there too and feel better than "the Negro" - again.

We are "Afro-centric" for saying this EuroMediterranean was not Afro-Mediterranean and was more related to a European than to an ancient people that all descriptions said were black and woolly haired like the Berbers and Mauri.
 

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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 

Numidia [11] and Mauritania [25]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

So many times it has been explained the coastal North Africans have mostly admixture or are at times completely foreign to the continent. I wonder, when will it sink into your thick skull?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

Some of the people in your post aren't Berber, but Tuareg.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:

Numidia [11] and Mauritania [25]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

So many times it has been explained the coastal North Africans have mostly admixture or are at times completely foreign to the continent. I wonder, when will it sink into your thick skull?

---

You are saying the same thing I am saying.
I'm saying is that most of the people in Africa who invaded the Iberian peninsula came from these coastal North African regions, Numidia and Maurentania.
Those are mixed regions that include many foreigners and have been mixed since before the birth of Christ.
They are part of the Berbers and Berbers also include indigenous Africans.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

Some of the people in your post aren't Berber, but Tuareg.

---

You said this in the Kabyle thread. It's wrong Tuareg are Berbers also but most of them live South of other Berbers. They live mainly in Mali and Niger but also some other places.

Let me inform you of some recent threads I made:

1)
Senegambian stone circles/Serer Religion

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008161;p=1#000000

ONE REPLY

_______________________________________________

2)
DNATribes: Atlantic Megalith Builders: Basque and North African

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008157;p=1#000000

a few replies

_______________________________________________

3)
Sign Petition: keep subsidy for N.I.N.S.E study of Dutch Slavery

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=006989;p=1#000000

NO REPLIES, PATHETIC people would rather worship European aristocrats rather than see their relation to the slave trade

___________________________________________________

4)
Africapitalism-Tony Elumelu

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=006885;p=1#000000

TWO REPLIES FROM ONE PERSON ONLY

___________________________________________________

5)
real Moorish literature

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=006887;p=1#000000


people would rather have wet dreams about the Hapsburgs being Moors than read actual Moorish literature

______________________________________________

6)
New York police frisk more people despite criticism

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=006868;p=1#000000

ZERO REPLIES

______________________________________________________


7)

In Egypt Turmoil, Thieves Hunt Pharaonic Treasures

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008143;p=1#000000

ZERO REPLIES

_________________________________________________________


so I blame all of you for preferring "RACE WAR" topics

.

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What I wrote in my previous post was. You can't go in to detailed arguments like Dana. So all you have as a response is a picture spam. And you still have no argument to the original inhabitants of North Africa. So much for your sarcasm, I don't see, what this has to do what a billion threads you have started. As if I have time to sit here all day...reading and responding to all your "race argument" threads. Day-in-day-out.lol


So, I blame you for having your head stuck in your ass...very deep. Not able to think critically.





However, it is you who is fighting the historic contribution of the African. You are a paper thin racist. Who has been exposed multiple times, for not being a African American black woman. But merely a fake!


Oh, before I forget. Tuaregs aren't Berbers. I repeat, Tuaregs aren't Berbers. It only goes as far as some in the North having mixture. But that doesn't make Tuaregs Berbers.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lyinass:

quote:

---

Originally posted by malcontent7:


Again they were initially called Moros in Spain because of where they came from ( Mauretania) not because of what they looked like. Most the Berbers who crossed over into Spain were light skinned. Tarik himself was described as having red hair and an early depiction shows him to be simply a tawny Berber.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Didn't you post this picture before last year or so only to have it refuted as NOT a Medieval portrait but a picture made in MODERN times by someone out of pure imagination??

---

no such refutation was made

There are three different accounts of Tariq ibn Ziyad origins given by Arabic histories.

1) He was a Persian from Hamadan.
2) He was an Arab of the Sadf tribe.
3) He was a Berber from North Africa.

The 13th-century historian Ibn Idhari states he was from the Ulhasa (French: Oulhaça) tribe.
the Ulhasa originate from a branch of the Nefzaouas people and part of the Zeneta .

According to Ibn Khaldun, the Ulhasa could be found at that time on both sides of the Tafna river in Tlemcen, Algeria.
Most historians, Arab and Spanish, seem to agree that he was a slave of the emir of Ifriqiya (North Africa), Musa bin Nusayr, who gave him his freedom and appointed him a general in his army. But his descendants centuries later denied he had ever been Musa's slave.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lyinass:

quote:

---

Originally posted by malcontent7:


Again they were initially called Moros in Spain because of where they came from ( Mauretania) not because of what they looked like. Most the Berbers who crossed over into Spain were light skinned. Tarik himself was described as having red hair and an early depiction shows him to be simply a tawny Berber.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Didn't you post this picture before last year or so only to have it refuted as NOT a Medieval portrait but a picture made in MODERN times by someone out of pure imagination??

---

no such refutation was made

There are three different accounts of Tariq ibn Ziyad origins given by Arabic histories.

1) He was a Persian from Hamadan.
2) He was an Arab of the Sadf tribe.
3) He was a Berber from North Africa.

The 13th-century historian Ibn Idhari states he was from the Ulhasa (French: Oulhaça) tribe.
the Ulhasa originate from a branch of the Nefzaouas people and part of the Zeneta .

According to Ibn Khaldun, the Ulhasa could be found at that time on both sides of the Tafna river in Tlemcen, Algeria.
Most historians, Arab and Spanish, seem to agree that he was a slave of the emir of Ifriqiya (North Africa), Musa bin Nusayr, who gave him his freedom and appointed him a general in his army. But his descendants centuries later denied he had ever been Musa's slave.

---

Yet what you said has nothing to do with the issue of that picture Malcontent keeps posting which was found to be made in recent modern times.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Yet what you said has nothing to do with the issue of that picture Malcontent keeps posting which was found to be made in recent modern times.

---

yet you keep claiming the picture was made in recent times but have zero proof.

"but I remember in some old thread it was proven to be a fake"

^^^^ that is not proof. It is based on the assumption that because the image (an incomplete version with the top cut off) was put into wikipedia by a a person that paints miniature medieval figures that it is recent. It is not recent:

http://www.blackbirdmedia.org/miniatures/?view=articles&which=al_andalus

^^^ The person paints medieval figurines today in 2012.
and he also put up two authentic medieval paintings one of Tariq ibn Ziyad.
So the fact that he also paints figurines is not a debunk on the painting

You stepped out and made a statement that tha painting is modern, prove it or don't bother stating it as fact
 

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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
At the bottom of page of Volume I of the book of Ibn Khaldun on the origins of the Berbers figures, without any reference or date or place, the following annotation: “the branch of Ulhasa (French: Oulhaça), information it would return the writings of the historian Ibn Idhari author of the Al Bayan Al Moghrib (News of Morocco)..In fact, Ibn khaldun has never clearely wrote that Tariq is an Ulhasa berber.
But Ibn Khaldun gave us sone informations about the Ulhasa tribes.He wrote that the nomads Ulhasa tribes could be found at that time on both sides of the Tafna river , frontier between modern Algeria and Morocco.. Today there also exist Ulhasa tribes in the Aurès (east modern Algeria) which proves that these tribes are nomads.
The armies of Tariq landed at Gibraltar (the name Gibraltar is derived from the Arabic name Jabal al Tariq, which means mountain of Tariq.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
The Ul-hasa are probably the Libyans mentioned as Hasa or "Hes" along with the Beken, Esbet, Imukehek, Kehek, and Meshwesh as part of the Libou confederation - "the Great Chiefs of the Meshwesh (including the kings of the 22nd Dynasty) are stated to be the descendants of "Buyuwawa the Libyan. The Libyo-Amazigh origin of the Meshwesh is also indicated in their personal names (such as Osorkon, Takelot, Nimlot, Shoshenq, etc.) and a handful of non-Egyptian titles used by these people that are related to both ancient and modern Berber languages." This quote brought to you from the Eurasiatics of Wikipedia. Thank you my, Eurasiatic friends for the precious information! Too bad there was no citation for this though.


And I see people in the "Amazigh" identity movement going around saying Osorkon the Libyan wasn't "black" or didn't have "black" features.


Yet, his stelae here tells a different story.
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/mharrsch/684587872/


So does this from his tomb. 22nd dynasty

If he is not "black" he was at least sub-Saharan related like the Fulani, Beja and Ethiopian i.e. indigenous Libyan.

Some people just can't be trusted.


Shoshenq I
 

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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^^^you can't get a good look at the person if the nose is broken off.



Shoshenq I (young before he became king)
Originally chief of the Ma (Meshwesh - a group of people with Libyan origins, thought to have been living in Egypt for some time, at Bubastis - it is possible that Herihor was of Libyan origins as were his successors)

Here's Shoshenq II, there are more intact items

Shoshenq II , Silver sarcophagus of Pharaoh Heqakheperre Shoshenq II (circa 900-885 B.C.), twenty-second Dynasty, third intermediate period

________________


Shoshenq II, Gold mask
(looks a little like Ramesses)

Shoshenq II, Gold mask

Funeral mask of Psusennes I (Libyan ?)


Triad of Osorkon II: Osiris Flanked by Isis and Horus T
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ All depictions show nothing atypical of Africans. Your point?
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:

Dates from the 1400's
The term Moor predates Muslims, and it has always meant black we covered this time and again but Lioness like to keep rehashing old arguments and yes ,Djehuti every Black was a Moor but all Moors weren't Blacks especially by late medieval times, St Maurice for instance was a Moor but he was non Muslim and did not hail from North West Africa and below the Roman writer Martial inter change Moor with Ethiopians,so too did Juvenal
“Grieve not at this, poor wretch, and with thine own hand give thy wife the potion whatever is be for did she choose to bear her leaping children in her womb thou wouldst, perchance, become the sire of an Ethiop, a blackamoor would soon be your sole heir.”

- Juvenal, Satire VI, lines 596 – 600

“One of them, with wooly hair, like a Moor, seems to be the son of Santra, the cook. The second, with a flat nose and thick lips, is the image of Pannicus, the wrestler . . . of the two daughters, one is black . . . and belongs to Crotus, the flute player.”

Martial, VI, 39.

“When tired of each noblest matron, (Gildo) hands her over to the Moors. These Sidonian mothers, married in Carthage City, must needs be mate with barbarians. He thrusts upon me an Ethiopian son-in-law. This hideous hybrid affects the cradle.”
Claudian.

Read more: http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=bag&action=display&thread=25&page=3#ixzz1wqeojFyn

---

Your depiction of Blacks in hooded garments looks very interesting. But is propaganda and likely racist showing that “Blacks” are supporters of the antichrist. This does not tell what most of the Moors in Spain looked like. The Cantigas portrayed scenes from everyday life.


Again they were initially called Moros in Spain because of where they came from ( Mauretania) not because of what they looked like. Most the Berbers who crossed over into Spain were light skinned. Tarik himself was described as having red hair and an early depiction shows him to be simply a tawny Berber.







Other Europeans may have associated the word Moor for Black but they really didn’t have the concept of race as we do today. Moor just referred to swarthy people coming from the other side of the Mediterranean. When the Spanish invented the term Negro, the English and others followed suit and a clear racial distinction was made..

You may be familiar with the color ranking of the Roman Manilius. It shows that among dark peoples the mauritanians were the lighest.

In Manilius' order swarthy complexions from the most
dark to the least dark are
- Aethiopes
- India
- Aegyptia
- Afrorum
- Mauretania


This would seem to be in accordance with the majority of light brown folk we see in North Africa today.



Most Blacks brought to Spain came with the Almoravids. They were not North Africans but recruited form Senegal and Mali. It’s documented.

“Yusuf ibn Tashfin , second Almoravid leader and man destined to conquer Andalus, reorganised these armies. Original Almoravid forces had been a tribal confederation, but yusuf changed the command structure and created a personal force of black slaves and foreigners. His bodyguard consisted of 500 non-Berber horsemen, including Arabs, Turks and Europeans, supported by a further 2,000 black African cavalry. Christian mercenaries as well as converted Spanish prisoners continued to fight for the Almoravids and their successors both in Andalus and North Africa throughout the late 11th and 12th centuries.
Cavalry also became more important than camel-mounted troops, particularly when operating in Andalus. There the high number of black Africans in Almoravid armies, many recruited from Senegal on the southern frontier of the empire, had a terrifying effect on Christian morale- as did the use of massed drums, unusual forms of bow, enormously long leather shields, bamboo spears and other unfamiliar weapons. A continuing use of large number camels also unsettled the Spaniards’ horses, in fact, such animals had been known in southern Andalus since at least the 10th century.”
http://www.oocities.org/ihusselbee/crusader/moors2.htm

---

http://www.oocities.org/ihusselbee/crusader/moors2.htm [/QB
Where are your Moors/Mauri here. Moroccan doesn't equal Moor and neither does the geographical term Mauritania.

"The Moors have bodies black as night, while the skin of the Gauls is white..." from
The Etymologies of Isidore of Seville - by Steven A. Barney published 2007. p. 386 Description of the Masmuda of the coasts of North AFrica and pre-Islamic invaders of Spain

Yusuf bin Tachfin was a dark brown near black veiled Sanhaja Berber with "woolly hair". (See Roudh al Kartas)
Sanhaja = Tuareg previous to the white slave trade = Almoravid

Pure Tuareg = East African = woolly- haired black African

Their was nothing swarthy about the Sanhaja people.

At the exact time of the Almoravid invasions Ibn Butlan describes the Sanhaja as follows - “The Berber women are from the island of Barbara (sic), which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters,..."


Berber women are "black" in the 11th century while Beja women are "golden".


Not even your thick, Neanderskulled, irrational responses can change that.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness:
[qb]



I can see you like our men Neanderwoman since you post them so much

MG]
Osorkon's tomb

"Originally chief of the Ma (Meshwesh - a group of people with Libyan origins, thought to have been living in Egypt for some time, at Bubastis - it is possible that Herihor was of Libyan origins as were his successors)" copied and pasted by Neanderwoman from Wikipedia probably


These are all the same Libyan families from the 22nd-23rd dynasty. MESHWESH or MAAZAWAZAOU as the Tuareg name individuals.

You lose.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:
[qb]Yusuf bin Tachfin's favorite wife,captured concubine was a European Christian, Fadh-el-Hassen. Tuareg/Sanhaja men have been taking white women as slaves for several hundred years as shown in their DNA.
 

---

Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
Djehuti, don't get brainwashed by dana

she says this never happened:

Greeks from Europe and the Phoenicians from Asia also settled along the coast of Northern Africa. Both societies drew their prosperity from the sea and from ocean-born trade. They found only limited trading opportunities with the native inhabitants, and instead turned to colonization. The Greek trade was based mainly in the Aegean, Adriatic, Black, and Red Seas and they only established major cities in Cyrenaica, directly to the south of Greece. In 332 BC, Alexander the Great conquered Egypt and for the next three centuries it was ruled by the Greek Ptolemaic dynasty.
The Phoenicians developed an even larger presence in North Africa with colonies from Tripoli to the Atlantic. One of the most important Phoenician cities was Carthage, which grew into one of the greatest powers in the region. At the height of its power, Carthage controlled the Western Mediterranean and most of North Africa outside of Egypt. However, Rome, Carthage's major rival to the north, defeated it in a series of wars known as the Punic Wars, resulting in Carthage's destruction in 146 BC and the annexation of its empire by the Romans. In 30 BC, Roman Emperor Octavian conquered Egypt, officially annexing it to the Empire and, for the first time, unifying the North African coast under a single ruler.
The Carthaginian power had penetrated deep into the Sahara ensuring the quiescence of the nomadic tribes in the region. The Roman Empire was more confined to the coast, yet routinely expropriated Berber land for Roman farmers. They thus faced a constant threat from the south. A network of forts and walls were established on the southern frontier, eventually securing the region well enough for local garrisons to control it without broader Imperial support.
When the Roman Empire began to collapse, North Africa was spared much of the disruption until the Vandal invasion of 429 AD. The Vandals ruled in North Africa until the territories were regained by Justinian of the Eastern Empire in the 6th century. Egypt was never invaded by the Vandals because there was a thousand mile buffer of desert.

___________________________________________

^^^^ descendants of these people and others are called Berbers.

If you prefer to have a blacks only defintion you can say people of the above ancestry are not Berbers. But Europeans have been calling these people as well as Tuaregs and others "Berbers" for centuries. The Berbers didn't historically call themselves "Berber"
Not "barbari" or any of this unrelated but similar sounding words, fancy linguistic footwork dana is trying to pull.

It comes down to alternative Semantics if you want to change the conventional meaning of "Berber" to mean "blacks only of North Africa" or "not Kabyle", it's never going to stick and it's racial exclusivism
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
Djehuti, don't get brainwashed by dana

she says this never happened:

Greeks from Europe and the Phoenicians from Asia also settled along the coast of Northern Africa. Both societies drew their prosperity from the sea and from ocean-born trade. They found only limited trading opportunities with the native inhabitants, and instead turned to colonization. The Greek trade was based mainly in the Aegean, Adriatic, Black, and Red Seas and they only established major cities in Cyrenaica, directly to the south of Greece. In 332 BC, Alexander the Great conquered Egypt and for the next three centuries it was ruled by the Greek Ptolemaic dynasty.
The Phoenicians developed an even larger presence in North Africa with colonies from Tripoli to the Atlantic. One of the most important Phoenician cities was Carthage, which grew into one of the greatest powers in the region. At the height of its power, Carthage controlled the Western Mediterranean and most of North Africa outside of Egypt. However, Rome, Carthage's major rival to the north, defeated it in a series of wars known as the Punic Wars, resulting in Carthage's destruction in 146 BC and the annexation of its empire by the Romans. In 30 BC, Roman Emperor Octavian conquered Egypt, officially annexing it to the Empire and, for the first time, unifying the North African coast under a single ruler.
The Carthaginian power had penetrated deep into the Sahara ensuring the quiescence of the nomadic tribes in the region. The Roman Empire was more confined to the coast, yet routinely expropriated Berber land for Roman farmers. They thus faced a constant threat from the south. A network of forts and walls were established on the southern frontier, eventually securing the region well enough for local garrisons to control it without broader Imperial support.
When the Roman Empire began to collapse, North Africa was spared much of the disruption until the Vandal invasion of 429 AD. The Vandals ruled in North Africa until the territories were regained by Justinian of the Eastern Empire in the 6th century. Egypt was never invaded by the Vandals because there was a thousand mile buffer of desert.

___________________________________________

^^^^ descendants of these people and others are called Berbers.

If you prefer to have a blacks only defintion you can say people of the above ancestry are not Berbers. But Europeans have been calling these people as well as Tuaregs and others "Berbers" for centuries. The Berbers didn't historically call themselves "Berber"
Not "barbari" or any of this unrelated but similar sounding words, fancy linguistic footwork dana is trying to pull.

---

Don't put words in my mouth Neanderwoman. I said people can be whatever they want.




If you prefer to be a fake black woman rather than the Neanderwoman u r - that's your prerogative.


BTW - real Berbers do and have always called themselves Berber/Beriberi. Sorry they weren't what you thought they were.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
Djehuti, don't get brainwashed by dana

she says this never happened:

Greeks from Europe and the Phoenicians from Asia also settled along the coast of Northern Africa. Both societies drew their prosperity from the sea and from ocean-born trade. They found only limited trading opportunities with the native inhabitants, and instead turned to colonization. The Greek trade was based mainly in the Aegean, Adriatic, Black, and Red Seas and they only established major cities in Cyrenaica, directly to the south of Greece. In 332 BC, Alexander the Great conquered Egypt and for the next three centuries it was ruled by the Greek Ptolemaic dynasty.
The Phoenicians developed an even larger presence in North Africa with colonies from Tripoli to the Atlantic. One of the most important Phoenician cities was Carthage, which grew into one of the greatest powers in the region. At the height of its power, Carthage controlled the Western Mediterranean and most of North Africa outside of Egypt. However, Rome, Carthage's major rival to the north, defeated it in a series of wars known as the Punic Wars, resulting in Carthage's destruction in 146 BC and the annexation of its empire by the Romans. In 30 BC, Roman Emperor Octavian conquered Egypt, officially annexing it to the Empire and, for the first time, unifying the North African coast under a single ruler.
The Carthaginian power had penetrated deep into the Sahara ensuring the quiescence of the nomadic tribes in the region. The Roman Empire was more confined to the coast, yet routinely expropriated Berber land for Roman farmers. They thus faced a constant threat from the south. A network of forts and walls were established on the southern frontier, eventually securing the region well enough for local garrisons to control it without broader Imperial support.
When the Roman Empire began to collapse, North Africa was spared much of the disruption until the Vandal invasion of 429 AD. The Vandals ruled in North Africa until the territories were regained by Justinian of the Eastern Empire in the 6th century. Egypt was never invaded by the Vandals because there was a thousand mile buffer of desert.

___________________________________________


I

---

Use quotes, Neanderwoman! When someone taught you to write they should have taught you to use quotes when copying from someone else.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
Djehuti, don't get brainwashed by dana

If you prefer to have a blacks only defintion you can say people of the above ancestry are not Berbers. But Europeans have been calling these people as well as Tuaregs and others "Berbers" for centuries.

---

yes Neanderwoman - The Tuaregs have been called Berbers for centuries. And what else were they called.

"The Berber women are from the island of Barbara (sic), which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly BLACK though some pale ones can be found among them." Butlan 11th century

“Diodorus Siculus speaks in reference to the expedition of Agathocles , of three Libyan tribes on the coast of Tunisia, the Micatani and Zufoni (see Zafan )who were nomads and the Asfodelodi, who by the color of their skin resembled the Ethiopians” p. 50 The Mediterranean Race Book XX, 38, 57 Guiseppe Sergi

Imakitan and pure Tuareg are still Ethiopian in color remember.

"Fut settled in India and Sind and their inhabitants are his descendants ..Kush and Kanaan's descendants are the various races of BLACKS, Nubian , zanj, qaran, Zaghawa Habasha, Copts and BARBARS.” Ibn Qutayba 8th century - found on page 124 in Race and Slavery in the Middle East. an Historical Enquiry, Oxford University Press, 1992.


“…BLACK faces filled up the tents" Corripus on the Moors of Tunisia (Byzacium)



Zanata Berbers of modern Central Algeria (Gourara)

I know you hate these facts, Neanderwoman.


The jealousy of the Neanderkind never ceases.


Near perfect match. Did you see I thanked you for this?
 

---

Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
dana keep in mind that the Neanderthal died out 30,000 year ago
It means that either there were white people then or it was blacks who slept with them, take your pick
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
dana keep in mind that the Neanderthal died out 30,000 year ago
It means that either there were white people then or it was blacks who slept with them, take your pick

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:


“Diodorus Siculus speaks in reference to the expedition of Agathocles , of three Libyan tribes on the coast of Tunisia, the Micatani and Zufoni (see Zafan )who were nomads and the Asfodelodi, who by the color of their skin resembled the Ethiopians” p. 50 The Mediterranean Race Book XX, 38, 57 Guiseppe Sergi

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
dana keep in mind that the Neanderthal died out 30,000 year ago
It means that either there were white people then or it was blacks who slept with them, take your pick

---

Not that I really care, but...


From what I know a few Neanderthals copulated with the Homo Sapien Sapien at Eurasia. Because they died out 30.000 having a very small population. Perhaps it was a bottleneck insertion. Which seems most likely to me.

---

No they didn't patrol as evidenced by Neanderwoman here, who has been pretending to be one of us.lol!


 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by HERU:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:


“Diodorus Siculus speaks in reference to the expedition of Agathocles , of three Libyan tribes on the coast of Tunisia, the Micatani and Zufoni (see Zafan )who were nomads and the Asfodelodi, who by the color of their skin resembled the Ethiopians” p. 50 The Mediterranean Race Book XX, 38, 57 Guiseppe Sergi

---

Incredible. I'm assuming this "Zafun" is a much earlier reference to the Berbers of 'Diafunu' mentioned by Yaqut (c. 13). They just happened to live far to the north in Diodorus Siculus' day.

Yaqut made it clear the Almoravid, at least Ali ibn Yusuf, was submissive to the Zafun king. And to add to your point, the Zafun king was "tall, of deep black complexion and veiled." - Levtzion and Spaulding, "Medieval West Africa: Views From Arab Scholars and Merchants" pg 40

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
[qb] dana keep in mind that the Neanderthal died out 30,000 year ago
It means that either there were white people then or it was blacks who slept with them, take your pick

---

Not that I really care, but...


From what I know a few Neanderthals copulated with the Homo Sapien Sapien at Eurasia. Because they died out 30.000 having a very small population. Perhaps it was a bottleneck insertion. Which seems most likely to me.

---

No they didn't patrol as evidenced by Neanderwoman here, who has been pretending to be one of us.lol!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
[qb] dana keep in mind that the Neanderthal died out 30,000 year ago
It means that either there were white people then or it was blacks who slept with them, take your pick

---

Not that I really care, but...


From what I know a few Neanderthals copulated with the Homo Sapien Sapien at Eurasia. Because they died out 30.000 having a very small population. Perhaps it was a bottleneck insertion. Which seems most likely to me.

---

No they didn't patrol as evidenced by Neanderwoman here, who has been pretending to be one of us.lol!

---

dana you simply didn't understand what Troll Patrol said it did not contradict at all what I said.

He said:

"Neanderthals copulated with the Homo Sapien Sapien at Eurasia. Because they died out 30,000"

^^^
This can only mean two things:

-Either the homo sapiens that fukced the Neanderthal were white people who existed at that time 30,000 years ago or earlier
or only black people lived at that time and it was them that fukced the Neanderthal


when you take your pick let me know who had sex with Neanderthals 30,000 years ago...

---

Sorry, Neanderwoman but you would know better than me about this than I.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
This was received in my email recently.

Looks like the war continues

"As some of you may know the 'uprising' in Libya against Gaddafi had serious racial undertones...it always did have...Gaddafi was right too about the so-called Rebels...they were a mixture of Western Agents, Criminals and al-Qaeda......Gaddafi himself did not hide his strong affiliation for dark skinned people...he more than any Arab leader or African leader for that matter did more for supporting Pan Africanist movements or causes for black and oppressed people worldwide....Libyan terrestial TV was full of positive pro-Black programmes...historical, Political and religious....in 1998 Gaddafi made the following statement



"I would like Libya to become a black country. Hence, I recommend to Libyan men to marry only black women and to Libyan women to marry black men."

sources: Orlandoweekly.com – COLUMNS: Brand recognition,Libya: News and Views, Kadafi Lambastes Arab Allies' Stance in Pan Am Blast Case – Los Angeles Times

A significant number of fair skinned Libyans hated his affiliation with Sub-Saharan Black Africa and the uprising gave them the opportunity to express that hatred by violently attacking any dark skinned person they saw even the original dark skinned Libyans in Benghazi, Tripoli and the mainly black skinned region known as the Fezzan.



In the attached video clip some of these dark skinned Libyans are being interviewed about the Rebels and their real motive....the person who uploaded the interview put subtitles so that those who don’t understand Arabic can understand what is being said...but even this ‘liberal’ person showed their prejudice by leaving out the last 4 minutes of translation...i have summarised what was said from 7:40 onwards



Libya is an African country

The original people of Libya were black

Libya was previously known as Gumra as-Sumra ( the Dark skinned Country )

That the white Libyans have only been in Libya less than 300 years

That Gaddafi has been protecting the dark skinned Libyans from the racist fair skinned Libyans

That many of the Rebels were known criminals

There is blatant lynching of dark skinned Libyans and other dark skinned Africans that the media has ignored



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzmamhtoAPU





In the second video...you can see a lynch mob in action....here they have captured a dark skinned Libyan..an original Libyan not a migrant worker from Nigeria, Ghana or Sudan..he was walking home from the shops in Benghazi when the mob approached him...they accused him of being a Gaddafi supporter....during the video clip he is racially insulted..in response he tells them that he is a Libyan national like them and not a Mercenary...he says he is a family man..the Mob say he is a liar...they later on Lynch him and mutilate his body...they even had the wickedness of heart to record themselves doing it...his family later appear in the video explaining that he was not a mercenary.....that he was born in Libya and worked in construction...the images of him in uniform show him when he was doing his national Service...the family go on to say that the Rebels who opposed Gaddafi are wicked Devils masquerading as Muslims.



I wonder what the reaction of that Satanic Lynch mob who claim to be Muslims and anyone else of the same mentality...i wonder what their reaction would be if they ever knew that the same Prophet Mohamed, His Family and the majority of the early supporters of Islam looked just like the very same man they racially abused and murdered?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtuIZozNryo&feature=related




Rabbana Islah al hal......La Hawl Wala Quwutta Illah Billah ( There is no power no strength but from Allah )"
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lyinass:

Djehuti, don't get brainwashed by dana

she says this never happened:

Greeks from Europe and the Phoenicians from Asia also settled along the coast of Northern Africa. Both societies drew their prosperity from the sea and from ocean-born trade. They found only limited trading opportunities with the native inhabitants, and instead turned to colonization. The Greek trade was based mainly in the Aegean, Adriatic, Black, and Red Seas and they only established major cities in Cyrenaica, directly to the south of Greece. In 332 BC, Alexander the Great conquered Egypt and for the next three centuries it was ruled by the Greek Ptolemaic dynasty.
The Phoenicians developed an even larger presence in North Africa with colonies from Tripoli to the Atlantic. One of the most important Phoenician cities was Carthage, which grew into one of the greatest powers in the region. At the height of its power, Carthage controlled the Western Mediterranean and most of North Africa outside of Egypt. However, Rome, Carthage's major rival to the north, defeated it in a series of wars known as the Punic Wars, resulting in Carthage's destruction in 146 BC and the annexation of its empire by the Romans. In 30 BC, Roman Emperor Octavian conquered Egypt, officially annexing it to the Empire and, for the first time, unifying the North African coast under a single ruler.
The Carthaginian power had penetrated deep into the Sahara ensuring the quiescence of the nomadic tribes in the region. The Roman Empire was more confined to the coast, yet routinely expropriated Berber land for Roman farmers. They thus faced a constant threat from the south. A network of forts and walls were established on the southern frontier, eventually securing the region well enough for local garrisons to control it without broader Imperial support.
When the Roman Empire began to collapse, North Africa was spared much of the disruption until the Vandal invasion of 429 AD. The Vandals ruled in North Africa until the territories were regained by Justinian of the Eastern Empire in the 6th century. Egypt was never invaded by the Vandals because there was a thousand mile buffer of desert.

___________________________________________

^^^^ descendants of these people and others are called Berbers.

If you prefer to have a blacks only defintion you can say people of the above ancestry are not Berbers. But Europeans have been calling these people as well as Tuaregs and others "Berbers" for centuries. The Berbers didn't historically call themselves "Berber"
Not "barbari" or any of this unrelated but similar sounding words, fancy linguistic footwork dana is trying to pull.

It comes down to alternative Semantics if you want to change the conventional meaning of "Berber" to mean "blacks only of North Africa" or "not Kabyle", it's never going to stick and it's racial exclusivism

---

LOL B|tch, first of all Djehuti does not get 'brainwashed' by anyone! If Dana's powers of persuasion are so great, then why do I disagree with some of what she says?!
Second, as usual you're lyingass is trying to attribute things to Dana which she never said! Of course the North African coast was settled by Phoenicians, Greeks, and various others, but when has Dana ever denied that?! In fact Dana herself has expressed in many occasions the presence of whites with blonde or red hair inhabiting the coasts of North Africa from ancient times up until the Vandals and Alani immigrations. But what does all of this have to do with the fact that the ORIGINAL inhabitants were and have always been black? What does this have to do with the fact that Berber languages as a branch of Afroasiatic was first spoken and propagated by indigenous Africans i.e. black peoples and not by the foreigners who adopted those languages?!

GTFOH with your lyingass.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by malcontent7:

Again they were initially called Moros in Spain because of where they came from ( Mauretania) not because of what they looked like. Most the Berbers who crossed over into Spain were light skinned. Tarik himself was described as having red hair and an early depiction shows him to be simply a tawny Berber.

---

quote:

---

Other Europeans may have associated the word Moor for Black but they really didn’t have the concept of race as we do today. Moor just referred to swarthy people coming from the other side of the Mediterranean. When the Spanish invented the term Negro, the English and others followed suit and a clear racial distinction was made..

---

quote:

---

You may be familiar with the color ranking of the Roman Manilius. It shows that among dark peoples the mauritanians were the lighest.

In Manilius' order swarthy complexions from the most dark to the least dark are
- Aethiopes
- India
- Aegyptia
- Afrorum
- Mauretania


This would seem to be in accordance with the majority of light brown folk we see in North Africa today.

---

quote:

---

Most Blacks brought to Spain came with the Almoravids. They were not North Africans but recruited form Senegal and Mali. It’s documented.

“Yusuf ibn Tashfin , second Almoravid leader and man destined to conquer Andalus, reorganised these armies. Original Almoravid forces had been a tribal confederation, but yusuf changed the command structure and created a personal force of black slaves and foreigners. His bodyguard consisted of 500 non-Berber horsemen, including Arabs, Turks and Europeans, supported by a further 2,000 black African cavalry. Christian mercenaries as well as converted Spanish prisoners continued to fight for the Almoravids and their successors both in Andalus and North Africa throughout the late 11th and 12th centuries.
Cavalry also became more important than camel-mounted troops, particularly when operating in Andalus. There the high number of black Africans in Almoravid armies, many recruited from Senegal on the southern frontier of the empire, had a terrifying effect on Christian morale- as did the use of massed drums, unusual forms of bow, enormously long leather shields, bamboo spears and other unfamiliar weapons. A continuing use of large number camels also unsettled the Spaniards’ horses, in fact, such animals had been known in southern Andalus since at least the 10th century.”
http://www.oocities.org/ihusselbee/crusader/moors2.htm

---

Moron! The only thing your documented source shows is that the Almoravids recruited non-Berber peoples into their army regardless of color. Some were other blacks from south of the Sahara while others were fairer skinned Muslim folks like Syrians and Turks. Your source however does NOT prove that the Almoravids themselves or other Berbers were not black! It's also hilarious that you point out the Almoravids recruiting people from areas to the south like Senegal considering that the Almoravid dynasty itself can be said to be from Senegal! The Almoravids descend from the Sanhaja division of Berbers who were Saharan nomads whose territory stretched to the Senegal River! In fact the very name 'Senegal' is derived from the Amazigh (Berber) word Zenaga!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almoravid_dynasty#Origins

The Berber peoples of the Maghreb in the early Middle Ages could be roughly classified into three major groups - the Zenata across the north, the Masmuda concentrated in central Morocco and the Sanhaja, clustered in two areas - the western part of the Sahara and the hills of the eastern Maghreb.[8][9] The eastern Sanhaja included the Kutama Berbers, who had been the base of the Fatimid rise in the early 10th C., and the Zirid dynasty who ruled Ifriqiya as vassals of the Fatimids after the latter moved to Egypt in 972. The western Sanhaja were divided into several tribes - the Gazzula and the Lamta in the Draa valley and the foothills of the Anti-Atlas range, further south, encamped in the western Sahara desert, were the Massufa, the Lamtuna and the Banu Warith, and most southerly of all, the Gudala (or Judala), in littoral Mauritania down to the borderlands of the Senegal river.
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
Description
English: illustration intended for the mid-nineteenth-century history of the European Middle Ages.

Author Theodor Hosemann (1807-1875)




http://books.google.com/books?id=8x322-89x3MC&pg=PA37&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false


Andalusian. 710AD-1172AD
DBA III/34

Neldoreth, April 8, 2008




Source: it's a bit funny. lol


http://www.blackbirdmedia.org/miniatures/?view=articles&which=al_andalus
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Yeah well the malcontent poster of the picture is little funny in the head himself.
 

---

Posted by Tahir Ali Bey (Member # 20422) on :
 
I wonder why there is so much disruption over the North African coastal regions. I find it most disturbing that people don't do the historical research that's necessary in finding the resolve.

History:

1.)

quote:

---

In 1452, Nicholas V issued the papal bull 'Dum Diversas', granting the King of Portugal the right to reduce any "Saracens, pagans and any other unbelievers" to hereditary slavery. Dum Diversas legitimised the colonial slave trade that begun around this time with the expeditions by Henry the Navigator to find a sea route to India, which were financed with African slaves. This approval of slavery was reaffirmed and extended in his Romanus Pontifex of 1455.

He was compelled, however, to add that the lustre of his pontificate would be forever dulled by the fall of Constantinople, which the Turks took in 1453. The Pope bitterly felt this catastrophe as a double blow to Christendom and to Greek letters.

Pope Nicholas V and slavery

Nicholas issued the bull "Dum Diversas" (June 18 1452) in response to a request from the Portuguese monarchy. King Alfonso V was conferred the right to "attack, conquer, and subjugate Saracens, Pagans and other enemies of Christ wherever they may be found." It gave title over all lands and possessions seized and permitted the Portuguese to take the inhabitants and consign them to perpetual slavery. (my notes: The taking over of North Coastal Africa)

The geographical area of the concession given in the bull is not explicit but Richard Raiswell argues that the use of the terms "pagans" and "other enemies of Christ" indicates the scope of the bull was applicable to the newly discovered lands along the west coast of Africa and that the ambiguity of the text was such that it encouraged the Portuguese to extend their explorations further afield.

He further argues that the use of crusading language in the bull served to make the Christian-Muslim relationship the model for Africa.

The bull issued by Nicholas "Romanus Pontifex" (8 January 1455) reaffirmed "Dum Diveras" and also sanctioned the purchase of black slaves from "the infidel".

According to Raiswell (1997) he expressed enthusiasm when recalling the number of slaves that had been captured, brought back to Portugal, baptised and expressed his hope that the entire populations of these new found lands would be converted.

military force, rather than peaceful evangelisation,

Stogre (1992) notes that this bull, perhaps in part due to misleading information provided by the Portuguese, introduced the concept of military force, rather than peaceful evangelisation, for missionary purposes and that it applied to lands that had never previously been subject to Christian ownership, subsequently leading to the "brutal dispossession and enslavement of the indigenous population".

The bull also conferred exclusive trading rights to the Portuguese between Morocco and the Indies with the rights to conquer and convert the inhabitants. A significant concession given by Nicholas in a brief issued to King Alfonso in 1454 extended the rights granted to existing territories to all those that might be taken in the future.

It is argued that collectively the two bulls issued by Nicholas gave the PORTUGUESE THE RIGHT TO ACQUIRED SLAVES ALONG THE AFRICAN COAST BY FORCE OR TRADE. The concessions given in them were confirmed by bulls issued by

Pope Calixtus III "Inter Caetera quae" (1456),

Sixtus IV "Aeterni regis" (1481) and

Leo X (1514) and they became the models for subsequent bulls issued by

Pope Alexander VI: "Eximiae devotionis" (May 3 1493),

"Inter Caetera" (May 4 1493) and

"Dudum Siquidem (September 23 1493) when he conferred similar rights to Spain in relation to the new found lands in the Americas.

http://www.ministers-best-friend.com/Colonization-Doctrine-of-Discovery.html

---

quote:

---

The Roman pontiff, successor of the key-bearer of the heavenly kingdom and vicar of Jesus Christ, contemplating with a father's mind all the several climes of the world and the characteristics of all the nations dwelling in them and seeking and desiring the salvation of all, wholesomely ordains and disposes upon careful deliberation those things which he sees will be agreeable to the Divine Majesty and by which he may bring the sheep entrusted to him by God into the single divine fold, and may acquire for them the reward of eternal felicity, and obtain pardon for their souls. This we believe will more certainly come to pass, through the aid of the Lord, if we bestow suitable favors and special graces on those Catholic kings and princes, who, like athletes and intrepid champions of the Christian faith, as we know by the evidence of facts, not only restrain the savage excesses of the Saracens and of other infidels, enemies of the Christian name, but also for the defense and increase of the faith vanquish them and their kingdoms and habitations, though situated in the remotest parts unknown to us, and subject them to their own temporal dominion, sparing no labor and expense, in order that those kings and princes, relieved of all obstacles, may be the more animated to the prosecution of so salutary and laudable a work.

We have lately heard, not without great joy and gratification, how our beloved son, the noble personage Henry, infante of Portugal, uncle of our most dear son in Christ, the illustrious Alfonso, king of the kingdoms of Portugal and Algarve, treading in the footsteps of John, of famous memory, king of the said kingdoms, his father, and greatly inflamed with zeal for the salvation of souls and with fervor of faith, as a Catholic and true soldier of Christ, the Creator of all things, and a most active and courageous defender and intrepid champion of the faith in Him, has aspired from his early youth with his utmost might to cause the most glorious name of the said Creator to be published, extolled, and revered throughout the whole world, even in the most remote and undiscovered places, and also to bring into the bosom of his faith the perfidious enemies of him and of the life-giving Cross by which we have been redeemed, namely the Saracens and all other infidels whatsoever, [and how] after the city of Ceuta, situated in Africa, had been subdued by the said King John to his dominion, and after many wars had been waged, sometimes in person, by the said infante, although in the name of the said King John, against the enemies and infidels aforesaid, not without the greatest labors and expense, and with dangers and loss of life and property, and the slaughter of very many of their natural subjects, the said infante being neither enfeebled nor terrified by so many and great labors, dangers, and losses, but growing daily more and more zealous in prosecuting this his so laudable and pious purpose, has peopled with orthodox Christians certain solitary islands in the ocean sea, and has caused churches and other pious places to be there founded and built, in which divine service is celebrated. Also by the laudable endeavor and industry of the said infante, very many inhabitants or dwellers in divers islands situated in the said sea, coming to the knowledge of the true God, have received holy baptism, to the praise and glory of God, the salvation of the souls of many, the propagation also of the orthodox faith, and the increase of divine worship.

http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/indig-romanus-pontifex.html

---

quote:

---

The term Negro is confined to slave Africans (The ancient Berbers) and their descendants. It does not embrace the free inhabitants of Africa, such as the Egyptians, Moors, or the Negro Asiatics, such as Lascars.

---

quote:

---

Vol. VI. Philadelphia, January 13, 1827. Whole 285.


FOR THE SATURDAY EVENING POST.
IMPORTANT HISTORICAL AND PHILOLOGICAL
DISCOVERY -- ON AMERICAN HISTORY.

To Peter Duponceau, Esq.

I have the pleasure to announce and communicate to you, that during the course of my present researches into the history of America, I have been successful in discovering the existence of several Alphabetical Glyphic Inscriptions, belonging to this continent.

The wonderful discoveries lately made in Europe by Champollin and others, relating to the Alphabetical Inscriptions of Egypt and actual attempts to reduce the Chinese characters, to primitive Alphabetical or syllabic elements, evince that much is yet to be learned of the ancient modes of expressing and communicating ideas.

My late discovery will form another link in the chain of philological investigation, and become a very important auxiliary in our historical researches. I allude principally to the inscriptions on the ruins of the ancient city of OTOLUM, near PALENQUE, in CHIAPA, one of the primitive cities of America, whose ruins are 32 miles in circumference! They have been partly made known by a work of Del Rio and Cabrera, published in 1822; but so imperfectly, that a high reward is offered in France, for an account more perfect. Meantime it is from the plates of Del Rio, that I have been enabled already to ascertain the nature of the chracaters inscribed in the walls of this American Thebes, to reduce them to their Alphabetical elements, and read many of them.

My intention, at present, is merely to announce to you, and to the friends of historical knowledge, this additional discovery, stating also how I was led to the result, but leaving for future communications, the numerous details which are involved therein.

The characters of OTOLUM are totally different from any other we are aquainted with, since they are formed by many curvilinear figures, compactly connected or blended together, and forming square groups in vertical series.

Comparing them with the Chinese characters, that are groups of plain rectangular elements; or the Persian, that form rows of [narrow] lines; or the Egyptian, that seem rows of distinct figures, &c. I found unity of purpose, but no identity nor similarity of execution.

Searching throughout the whole of the ancient Alphabets for this similarity, I found none that offered the curvilinear elements of the OTOLUM characters, except the Old Lybian, or primitive Alphabet of North Africa, given us by Gramay, Purchas, Gebelin, &c. This Alphabet (one of the most ancient, since it may have been that of the Atlantes or Getulians, the ancestors of the actual Berbers) is quite symbolical, like the Egyptian phonetic: it has 16 letters only -- 5 are vowels, each being the first letter of the five senses; and 11 consonants, being the first letters of the 4 elements and 7 planets. BY some slight variations, these consonants are increased to 16, giving 21 letters altogether. In this complex Alphabet, every letter is a symbol: thus the 5 vowels A. E. I. O. U. are represented by coarse delineations of the ear, the eye, the nose, the tongue and the hand. It is in this philosophical Alphabet, that I found the elements of the OTOLUM characters and inscriptions. But the letters instead of being rows, for compact groups, each group being a word, or short sentence.

All the Lybian letters or sumbols are found; but they are sometimes modified or ornamented: these ornaments and additions increase the difficulty of reading them, which is very great, owing to the modes of ascertaining the succession of the letters in the groups -- however, the main letters are generally larger, and succeed each other from right to left. Appearances of syllabic combinations are often evident, and numbers are perspicuously delineated by long ellipsoids marking 10 with little balls for unities, standing apart.

These OTOLUM characters, are totally different from the Azteca or Mexican paintings, which are true symbols, and also from every other American mode of expressing ideas by carvings, paintings, or quipos. They appear besides to belong to a peculiar language, distinct from the Azteca, probably the Tiendal, (called also Chontal, Celtal, &c.) yet spoken from Chiapa to Panama, and connected with the Mayas of Yucatan. The following are some of the words decyphered: Teoo, Uobac, Ben, Ereo, Balke XIII, Pre-ulu, Pit-Ab, Are XIV, Er XXIII, &c. &c.

Thus we have another clue to our historical and philological researches: The Empire of OTOLUM in central America, founded on the river Tulija, by the Dinasty of VOTAN, who perhaps were of the Neiton (Neptunes) of North Africa and South Europe, and a branch of the Atlantes or Betulians or Autololes, will become interesting to study. The statues of OTOLUM, represent a peculiar race of men with large aquiline noses, thick lips, and conical heads, and appear different from most of the actual American tribes. They were one of the numerous colonies established in America in ancient times, and who brought with them the civilization, language, arts, sciences, &c. of primitive antiquity. Whence the striking analogies detected between the ancient Etruscans, Egyptians, Persians, Turanians, Hindoos, &c. and the polished nations of America, namely, the Mexicans, Peruvians, [Muhiyeas], Chilians, Apalachians, Haytians, Mayans, Utatlans and Otolans.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
This was received in my email recently.

Looks like the war continues

"As some of you may know the 'uprising' in Libya against Gaddafi had serious racial undertones...it always did have...Gaddafi was right too about the so-called Rebels...they were a mixture of Western Agents, Criminals and al-Qaeda......Gaddafi himself did not hide his strong affiliation for dark skinned people...he more than any Arab leader or African leader for that matter did more for supporting Pan Africanist movements or causes for black and oppressed people worldwide....Libyan terrestial TV was full of positive pro-Black programmes...historical, Political and religious....in 1998 Gaddafi made the following statement



"I would like Libya to become a black country. Hence, I recommend to Libyan men to marry only black women and to Libyan women to marry black men."

sources: Orlandoweekly.com – COLUMNS: Brand recognition,Libya: News and Views, Kadafi Lambastes Arab Allies' Stance in Pan Am Blast Case – Los Angeles Times

A significant number of fair skinned Libyans hated his affiliation with Sub-Saharan Black Africa and the uprising gave them the opportunity to express that hatred by violently attacking any dark skinned person they saw even the original dark skinned Libyans in Benghazi, Tripoli and the mainly black skinned region known as the Fezzan.



In the attached video clip some of these dark skinned Libyans are being interviewed about the Rebels and their real motive....the person who uploaded the interview put subtitles so that those who don’t understand Arabic can understand what is being said...but even this ‘liberal’ person showed their prejudice by leaving out the last 4 minutes of translation...i have summarised what was said from 7:40 onwards



Libya is an African country

The original people of Libya were black

Libya was previously known as Gumra as-Sumra ( the Dark skinned Country )

That the white Libyans have only been in Libya less than 300 years

That Gaddafi has been protecting the dark skinned Libyans from the racist fair skinned Libyans

That many of the Rebels were known criminals

There is blatant lynching of dark skinned Libyans and other dark skinned Africans that the media has ignored



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzmamhtoAPU





In the second video...you can see a lynch mob in action....here they have captured a dark skinned Libyan..an original Libyan not a migrant worker from Nigeria, Ghana or Sudan..he was walking home from the shops in Benghazi when the mob approached him...they accused him of being a Gaddafi supporter....during the video clip he is racially insulted..in response he tells them that he is a Libyan national like them and not a Mercenary...he says he is a family man..the Mob say he is a liar...they later on Lynch him and mutilate his body...they even had the wickedness of heart to record themselves doing it...his family later appear in the video explaining that he was not a mercenary.....that he was born in Libya and worked in construction...the images of him in uniform show him when he was doing his national Service...the family go on to say that the Rebels who opposed Gaddafi are wicked Devils masquerading as Muslims.



I wonder what the reaction of that Satanic Lynch mob who claim to be Muslims and anyone else of the same mentality...i wonder what their reaction would be if they ever knew that the same Prophet Mohamed, His Family and the majority of the early supporters of Islam looked just like the very same man they racially abused and murdered?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtuIZozNryo&feature=related




Rabbana Islah al hal......La Hawl Wala Quwutta Illah Billah ( There is no power no strength but from Allah )"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Yeah well the malcontent poster of the picture is little funny in the head himself.

---

Someone like that I can't take seriously.


And is indeed malcontent. Malware!


 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Remember the beating the malcontent received here for arguing that proto-Berbers were not black and that black types like the relatively isolated Siwa are slave descendants! LOL Even his arguments about coastal Berbers who are of obvious mixed-black appearance can't hold weight. Perhaps the funniest post he made was using as his source of info a 'new age' spiritualist, here! LMAO
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Remember the beating the malcontent received here for arguing that proto-Berbers were not black and that black types like the relatively isolated Siwa are slave descendants! LOL Even his arguments about coastal Berbers who are of obvious mixed-black appearance can't hold weight. Perhaps the funniest post he made was using as his source of info a 'new age' spiritualist, here! LMAO

---

Actually it is very sad someone will go this far, thus because of his deep hatred for a people. He believes they do not deserve any credit.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Actually a distinction should be made between a belief in being superior and bigotry which is hatred. For example, I think my dog is inferior to me (which it is) but I don't hate it at all but to the contrary love it a lot.

This guy may not have an ounce of hatred in his heart for blacks or anyone. In fact I wouldn't be at all surprised if he had black friends, but he obviously shares the debunked notions of black inferiority which is why he tries desperately to white-wash North Africans like Berbers and Egyptians who were black. The Egyptians because of their advanced civilization, the Berbers because they were the Moors who invaded Europe, and remember that he personally does not consider Afroasiatic to be African despite all the evidence. No doubt it is because if he considered otherwise, it would mean he has to admit that Africans had a significant impact on the 'Near East' and thus world history itself especially religion.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
This was received in my email recently.

Looks like the war continues

"As some of you may know the 'uprising' in Libya against Gaddafi had serious racial undertones...it always did have...Gaddafi was right too about the so-called Rebels...they were a mixture of Western Agents, Criminals and al-Qaeda......Gaddafi himself did not hide his strong affiliation for dark skinned people...he more than any Arab leader or African leader for that matter did more for supporting Pan Africanist movements or causes for black and oppressed people worldwide....Libyan terrestial TV was full of positive pro-Black programmes...historical, Political and religious....in 1998 Gaddafi made the following statement



"I would like Libya to become a black country. Hence, I recommend to Libyan men to marry only black women and to Libyan women to marry black men."

sources: Orlandoweekly.com – COLUMNS: Brand recognition,Libya: News and Views, Kadafi Lambastes Arab Allies' Stance in Pan Am Blast Case – Los Angeles Times

A significant number of fair skinned Libyans hated his affiliation with Sub-Saharan Black Africa and the uprising gave them the opportunity to express that hatred by violently attacking any dark skinned person they saw even the original dark skinned Libyans in Benghazi, Tripoli and the mainly black skinned region known as the Fezzan.



In the attached video clip some of these dark skinned Libyans are being interviewed about the Rebels and their real motive....the person who uploaded the interview put subtitles so that those who don’t understand Arabic can understand what is being said...but even this ‘liberal’ person showed their prejudice by leaving out the last 4 minutes of translation...i have summarised what was said from 7:40 onwards



Libya is an African country

The original people of Libya were black

Libya was previously known as Gumra as-Sumra ( the Dark skinned Country )

That the white Libyans have only been in Libya less than 300 years

That Gaddafi has been protecting the dark skinned Libyans from the racist fair skinned Libyans

That many of the Rebels were known criminals

There is blatant lynching of dark skinned Libyans and other dark skinned Africans that the media has ignored



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzmamhtoAPU





In the second video...you can see a lynch mob in action....here they have captured a dark skinned Libyan..an original Libyan not a migrant worker from Nigeria, Ghana or Sudan..he was walking home from the shops in Benghazi when the mob approached him...they accused him of being a Gaddafi supporter....during the video clip he is racially insulted..in response he tells them that he is a Libyan national like them and not a Mercenary...he says he is a family man..the Mob say he is a liar...they later on Lynch him and mutilate his body...they even had the wickedness of heart to record themselves doing it...his family later appear in the video explaining that he was not a mercenary.....that he was born in Libya and worked in construction...the images of him in uniform show him when he was doing his national Service...the family go on to say that the Rebels who opposed Gaddafi are wicked Devils masquerading as Muslims.



I wonder what the reaction of that Satanic Lynch mob who claim to be Muslims and anyone else of the same mentality...i wonder what their reaction would be if they ever knew that the same Prophet Mohamed, His Family and the majority of the early supporters of Islam looked just like the very same man they racially abused and murdered?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtuIZozNryo&feature=related




Rabbana Islah al hal......La Hawl Wala Quwutta Illah Billah ( There is no power no strength but from Allah )"

---

The ugly part is that many of these so called white Arabs in Libya are really just Mulattoes who want to be Arab. But heck then again most Arabs are also Mulattoes as well....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Remember the beating the malcontent received here for arguing that proto-Berbers were not black and that black types like the relatively isolated Siwa are slave descendants! LOL Even his arguments about coastal Berbers who are of obvious mixed-black appearance can't hold weight. Perhaps the funniest post he made was using as his source of info a 'new age' spiritualist, here! LMAO

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Remember the beating the malcontent received here for arguing that proto-Berbers were not black and that black types like the relatively isolated Siwa are slave descendants! LOL Even his arguments about coastal Berbers who are of obvious mixed-black appearance can't hold weight. Perhaps the funniest post he made was using as his source of info a 'new age' spiritualist, here! LMAO

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tahir Ali Bey:
I wonder why there is so much disruption over the North African coastal regions. I find it most disturbing that people don't do the historical research that's necessary in finding the resolve.

History:

1.)

quote:

---

In 1452, Nicholas V issued the papal bull 'Dum Diversas', granting the King of Portugal the right to reduce any "Saracens, pagans and any other unbelievers" to hereditary slavery. Dum Diversas legitimised the colonial slave trade that begun around this time with the expeditions by Henry the Navigator to find a sea route to India, which were financed with African slaves. This approval of slavery was reaffirmed and extended in his Romanus Pontifex of 1455.

He was compelled, however, to add that the lustre of his pontificate would be forever dulled by the fall of Constantinople, which the Turks took in 1453. The Pope bitterly felt this catastrophe as a double blow to Christendom and to Greek letters.

Pope Nicholas V and slavery

Nicholas issued the bull "Dum Diversas" (June 18 1452) in response to a request from the Portuguese monarchy. King Alfonso V was conferred the right to "attack, conquer, and subjugate Saracens, Pagans and other enemies of Christ wherever they may be found." It gave title over all lands and possessions seized and permitted the Portuguese to take the inhabitants and consign them to perpetual slavery. (my notes: The taking over of North Coastal Africa)

The geographical area of the concession given in the bull is not explicit but Richard Raiswell argues that the use of the terms "pagans" and "other enemies of Christ" indicates the scope of the bull was applicable to the newly discovered lands along the west coast of Africa and that the ambiguity of the text was such that it encouraged the Portuguese to extend their explorations further afield.

He further argues that the use of crusading language in the bull served to make the Christian-Muslim relationship the model for Africa.

The bull issued by Nicholas "Romanus Pontifex" (8 January 1455) reaffirmed "Dum Diveras" and also sanctioned the purchase of black slaves from "the infidel".

According to Raiswell (1997) he expressed enthusiasm when recalling the number of slaves that had been captured, brought back to Portugal, baptised and expressed his hope that the entire populations of these new found lands would be converted.

military force, rather than peaceful evangelisation,

Stogre (1992) notes that this bull, perhaps in part due to misleading information provided by the Portuguese, introduced the concept of military force, rather than peaceful evangelisation, for missionary purposes and that it applied to lands that had never previously been subject to Christian ownership, subsequently leading to the "brutal dispossession and enslavement of the indigenous population".

The bull also conferred exclusive trading rights to the Portuguese between Morocco and the Indies with the rights to conquer and convert the inhabitants. A significant concession given by Nicholas in a brief issued to King Alfonso in 1454 extended the rights granted to existing territories to all those that might be taken in the future.

It is argued that collectively the two bulls issued by Nicholas gave the PORTUGUESE THE RIGHT TO ACQUIRED SLAVES ALONG THE AFRICAN COAST BY FORCE OR TRADE. The concessions given in them were confirmed by bulls issued by

Pope Calixtus III "Inter Caetera quae" (1456),

Sixtus IV "Aeterni regis" (1481) and

Leo X (1514) and they became the models for subsequent bulls issued by

Pope Alexander VI: "Eximiae devotionis" (May 3 1493),

"Inter Caetera" (May 4 1493) and

"Dudum Siquidem (September 23 1493) when he conferred similar rights to Spain in relation to the new found lands in the Americas.

http://www.ministers-best-friend.com/Colonization-Doctrine-of-Discovery.html

---

2.)The Bull Romanus Pontifex (Nicholas V), January 8, 1455

quote:

---

The Roman pontiff, successor of the key-bearer of the heavenly kingdom and vicar of Jesus Christ, contemplating with a father's mind all the several climes of the world and the characteristics of all the nations dwelling in them and seeking and desiring the salvation of all, wholesomely ordains and disposes upon careful deliberation those things which he sees will be agreeable to the Divine Majesty and by which he may bring the sheep entrusted to him by God into the single divine fold, and may acquire for them the reward of eternal felicity, and obtain pardon for their souls. This we believe will more certainly come to pass, through the aid of the Lord, if we bestow suitable favors and special graces on those Catholic kings and princes, who, like athletes and intrepid champions of the Christian faith, as we know by the evidence of facts, not only restrain the savage excesses of the Saracens and of other infidels, enemies of the Christian name, but also for the defense and increase of the faith vanquish them and their kingdoms and habitations, though situated in the remotest parts unknown to us, and subject them to their own temporal dominion, sparing no labor and expense, in order that those kings and princes, relieved of all obstacles, may be the more animated to the prosecution of so salutary and laudable a work.

We have lately heard, not without great joy and gratification, how our beloved son, the noble personage Henry, infante of Portugal, uncle of our most dear son in Christ, the illustrious Alfonso, king of the kingdoms of Portugal and Algarve, treading in the footsteps of John, of famous memory, king of the said kingdoms, his father, and greatly inflamed with zeal for the salvation of souls and with fervor of faith, as a Catholic and true soldier of Christ, the Creator of all things, and a most active and courageous defender and intrepid champion of the faith in Him, has aspired from his early youth with his utmost might to cause the most glorious name of the said Creator to be published, extolled, and revered throughout the whole world, even in the most remote and undiscovered places, and also to bring into the bosom of his faith the perfidious enemies of him and of the life-giving Cross by which we have been redeemed, namely the Saracens and all other infidels whatsoever, [and how] after the city of Ceuta, situated in Africa, had been subdued by the said King John to his dominion, and after many wars had been waged, sometimes in person, by the said infante, although in the name of the said King John, against the enemies and infidels aforesaid, not without the greatest labors and expense, and with dangers and loss of life and property, and the slaughter of very many of their natural subjects, the said infante being neither enfeebled nor terrified by so many and great labors, dangers, and losses, but growing daily more and more zealous in prosecuting this his so laudable and pious purpose, has peopled with orthodox Christians certain solitary islands in the ocean sea, and has caused churches and other pious places to be there founded and built, in which divine service is celebrated. Also by the laudable endeavor and industry of the said infante, very many inhabitants or dwellers in divers islands situated in the said sea, coming to the knowledge of the true God, have received holy baptism, to the praise and glory of God, the salvation of the souls of many, the propagation also of the orthodox faith, and the increase of divine worship.

http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/indig-romanus-pontifex.html

---

According to history the original inhabitants of the Northern Coastal region of Africa was delivered into the hands of slavery by the Portugal an in the process took over their kingdoms, possession and pretty much their birthright. The slaves became part of the slave trade slaves helped fund his trip to India and made the old inhabitants their slaves.

Its it also interesting that a poster brought up the South Carolina slave document which seems to become more specific when you link the histories together.

Slave Laws of South Carolina 1848 Section 4:

quote:

---

The term Negro is confined to slave Africans (The ancient Berbers) and their descendants. It does not embrace the free inhabitants of Africa, such as the Egyptians, Moors, or the Negro Asiatics, such as Lascars.

---

I read and interesting document today which outlines a lot of what I've been reading by some of the great scholars on this website in concerns to the Moors.

.3)

quote:

---

Vol. VI. Philadelphia, January 13, 1827. Whole 285.


FOR THE SATURDAY EVENING POST.
IMPORTANT HISTORICAL AND PHILOLOGICAL
DISCOVERY -- ON AMERICAN HISTORY.

To Peter Duponceau, Esq.

I have the pleasure to announce and communicate to you, that during the course of my present researches into the history of America, I have been successful in discovering the existence of several Alphabetical Glyphic Inscriptions, belonging to this continent.

The wonderful discoveries lately made in Europe by Champollin and others, relating to the Alphabetical Inscriptions of Egypt and actual attempts to reduce the Chinese characters, to primitive Alphabetical or syllabic elements, evince that much is yet to be learned of the ancient modes of expressing and communicating ideas.

My late discovery will form another link in the chain of philological investigation, and become a very important auxiliary in our historical researches. I allude principally to the inscriptions on the ruins of the ancient city of OTOLUM, near PALENQUE, in CHIAPA, one of the primitive cities of America, whose ruins are 32 miles in circumference! They have been partly made known by a work of Del Rio and Cabrera, published in 1822; but so imperfectly, that a high reward is offered in France, for an account more perfect. Meantime it is from the plates of Del Rio, that I have been enabled already to ascertain the nature of the chracaters inscribed in the walls of this American Thebes, to reduce them to their Alphabetical elements, and read many of them.

My intention, at present, is merely to announce to you, and to the friends of historical knowledge, this additional discovery, stating also how I was led to the result, but leaving for future communications, the numerous details which are involved therein.

The characters of OTOLUM are totally different from any other we are aquainted with, since they are formed by many curvilinear figures, compactly connected or blended together, and forming square groups in vertical series.

Comparing them with the Chinese characters, that are groups of plain rectangular elements; or the Persian, that form rows of [narrow] lines; or the Egyptian, that seem rows of distinct figures, &c. I found unity of purpose, but no identity nor similarity of execution.

Searching throughout the whole of the ancient Alphabets for this similarity, I found none that offered the curvilinear elements of the OTOLUM characters, except the Old Lybian, or primitive Alphabet of North Africa, given us by Gramay, Purchas, Gebelin, &c. This Alphabet (one of the most ancient, since it may have been that of the Atlantes or Getulians, the ancestors of the actual Berbers) is quite symbolical, like the Egyptian phonetic: it has 16 letters only -- 5 are vowels, each being the first letter of the five senses; and 11 consonants, being the first letters of the 4 elements and 7 planets. BY some slight variations, these consonants are increased to 16, giving 21 letters altogether. In this complex Alphabet, every letter is a symbol: thus the 5 vowels A. E. I. O. U. are represented by coarse delineations of the ear, the eye, the nose, the tongue and the hand. It is in this philosophical Alphabet, that I found the elements of the OTOLUM characters and inscriptions. But the letters instead of being rows, for compact groups, each group being a word, or short sentence.

All the Lybian letters or sumbols are found; but they are sometimes modified or ornamented: these ornaments and additions increase the difficulty of reading them, which is very great, owing to the modes of ascertaining the succession of the letters in the groups -- however, the main letters are generally larger, and succeed each other from right to left. Appearances of syllabic combinations are often evident, and numbers are perspicuously delineated by long ellipsoids marking 10 with little balls for unities, standing apart.

These OTOLUM characters, are totally different from the Azteca or Mexican paintings, which are true symbols, and also from every other American mode of expressing ideas by carvings, paintings, or quipos. They appear besides to belong to a peculiar language, distinct from the Azteca, probably the Tiendal, (called also Chontal, Celtal, &c.) yet spoken from Chiapa to Panama, and connected with the Mayas of Yucatan. The following are some of the words decyphered: Teoo, Uobac, Ben, Ereo, Balke XIII, Pre-ulu, Pit-Ab, Are XIV, Er XXIII, &c. &c.

Thus we have another clue to our historical and philological researches: The Empire of OTOLUM in central America, founded on the river Tulija, by the Dinasty of VOTAN, who perhaps were of the Neiton (Neptunes) of North Africa and South Europe, and a branch of the Atlantes or Betulians or Autololes, will become interesting to study. The statues of OTOLUM, represent a peculiar race of men with large aquiline noses, thick lips, and conical heads, and appear different from most of the actual American tribes. They were one of the numerous colonies established in America in ancient times, and who brought with them the civilization, language, arts, sciences, &c. of primitive antiquity. Whence the striking analogies detected between the ancient Etruscans, Egyptians, Persians, Turanians, Hindoos, &c. and the polished nations of America, namely, the Mexicans, Peruvians, [Muhiyeas], Chilians, Apalachians, Haytians, Mayans, Utatlans and Otolans.

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My opinion is shifting toward the idea that the ancient inhabitant of North Africa (Ancient Berbers) which region went far into West Africa, are in the Americas as the diaspora slaves. The documents don't lie and history seems to verify these claims.

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

Yes the sad part of what has happened is that these people probably all have black African blood but have been taught to believe that "white is right", just like in America and South Africa. Some of this comes from the period of Abbasid influence and Ottoman rule though. In fact from what it appears it is probably worse in some places in North Africa and Yemen than in America today. They have also been influenced by the early colonialist historians who have apparently been teaching that some imaginary "Caucasoids" related to Europeans are the original natives of North Africa.

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Originally posted by the lioness:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

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Originally posted by the lioness:
[qb] dana keep in mind that the Neanderthal died out 30,000 year ago
It means that either there were white people then or it was blacks who slept with them, take your pick

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Not that I really care, but...


From what I know a few Neanderthals copulated with the Homo Sapien Sapien at Eurasia. Because they died out 30.000 having a very small population. Perhaps it was a bottleneck insertion. Which seems most likely to me.

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No they didn't patrol as evidenced by Neanderwoman here, who has been pretending to be one of us.lol!

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dana you simply didn't understand what Troll Patrol said it did not contradict at all what I said.

He said:

"Neanderthals copulated with the Homo Sapien Sapien at Eurasia. Because they died out 30,000"

^^^
This can only mean two things:

-Either the homo sapiens that fukced the Neanderthal were white people who existed at that time 30,000 years ago or earlier
or only black people lived at that time and it was them that fukced the Neanderthal


when you take your pick let me know who had sex with Neanderthals 30,000 years ago

If you don't know please remain quiet, clever avoidant remarks won't save you

thanks lioness

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I did not see this post, until now. Be accident.


But you are trying to twist my words. And give it a total different meaning. "Neanderthals copulated with the Homo Sapien Sapien at Eurasia". It means the bottle neck occurrence. of a group of Sapien Sapien at Eurasia, probably "the tropical adapted Cro Magnon" had "sex" with a Neanderthals. (And we all know by know, they weren't "white", as this allele mutation only is 10ky old.)


This is what a documentary once showed. They showed the Neanderthal as male and Homo Sapien Sapien as female.

I don't know if this is genetically correct. I assume they will change it into such soon.


As they are doing with many things, momentarily. As time goes by....

It's a whole nother ball game now. And oit going to get bloody messy...
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Of course the lyingass twisted your words and corrupted what you meant. She does that all the time, but I don't think you need to worry now since that twit is out of commission. Hopefully for good.
 

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Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Of course the lyingass twisted your words and corrupted what you meant. She does that all the time, but I don't think you need to worry now since that twit is out of commission. Hopefully for good.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Of course. By the way, the reason why studies show a contrast between Palestinians and Egyptians including Delta people was because, as some like Angel and Brace have noted, the Natufians were absorbed into a larger population that was not of African or tropical affiliation. In fact, it was the Natufians' own appearance that made them distinct from contemporary peoples in the area and let's not forget when they were first discovered they were outright called "negroes". LOL

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

Yes the sad part of what has happened is that these people probably all have black African blood but have been taught to believe that "white is right", just like in America and South Africa. Some of this comes from the period of Abbasid influence and Ottoman rule though. In fact from what it appears it is probably worse in some places in North Africa and Yemen than in America today. They have also been influenced by the early colonialist historians who have apparently been teaching that some imaginary "Caucasoids" related to Europeans are the original natives of North Africa.

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Yes, this is sad and twisted state of affairs where the indigenous folks get oppressed in their own homelands and written out of their own histories. By the way such influence from colonial historians might explain the mentality of 'White Nubian' assuming he is actually even Nubian.

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

I am not so sure she is gone, I think she is here under another alter ego.

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Maybe. Perhaps she is 'White Nubian'! LOL

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Sorry for the typos in my earlier post, I was tired and rushed it.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ So that's what they mean by "basic white type"! They essentially mean gracile tropical forms or as a Euronut troll once called it "primitive or archaic Caucasoids"! LOL By the way, Explorer wrote an essay on the issue of Mechtoid identification here.

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

I am not so sure she is gone, I think she is here under another alter ego.

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Maybe. Perhaps she is 'White Nubian'! LOL

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ So that's what they mean by "basic white type"! They essentially mean gracile tropical forms or as a Euronut troll once called it "primitive or archaic Caucasoids"! LOL By the way, Explorer wrote an essay on the issue of Mechtoid identification here.

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

I am not so sure she is gone, I think she is here under another alter ego.

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Maybe. Perhaps she is 'White Nubian'! LOL

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Sorry for the typos in my earlier post, I was tired and rushed it.

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Trust me, I know exactly what you mean.

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Thanks for the Explorer site link.

There we find citations of scientists using the kind of doubletalk I meant to avoid saying these groups were in fact black sub-Saharan "Negro" affiliated people. The word "Negro" carries too many negative connotations and furthermore the Negro as a physiological type doesn't even exist, so they stick with phrases like "negroid increments", "negroid attributes", etc.

"The Negroid increment of which there is evidence in some of our Northern Neolithic Series, notably Kef-el-Agab 1 and Troglodytes 1, may have well come in the same way from the South to add to the already slightly Negroid Hamitic cast of the African Mediterraneans and of their partial derivative, the Mechta-Afalou Type."

...Type B which fits, in all essential respects, the usual definition of the Mediterranean racial type, but sometimes shows also certain morphological peculiarities commonly known as "Boskopid," as well as Negroid features among females. Type B therefore was classified as African Mediterranean...It may have well acquired its "Boskopid" traits on the road, near the headwaters of the Nile, and kidnapped a few Negro or heavily Negroid women on its way west before turning northward into Northwest Africa. The peculiar characteristics of such women could have been restricted largely to females, at least for a time, by artificial selection in the form of preferential mating."

Source: Briggs, Stone Age Races of Northwest Africa, pgs 81,89"

That supposition about kidnapped Negro women is an especially weird surmise though.lol!
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ LMAO At least the 'kidnapped negresses' theory sounds more plausible than the theory of a neolithic slave trade as explanation for the presence of African lineages in southern Europe, especially in Greece, even though such lineages are paternal. Perhaps these were paleolithic white Amazon women who kidnapped and enslaved 'negro men'! LOL

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

Yes "basic white type" is essentially "black Caucasoid". Angel. who I think invented the terminology identifies it with the 26th dynasty Libyo-Egyptians.

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lol!That would be too clever of Neanderdullwoman to be "white Nubian". on second thought. it is funny how she shows up right as the Lyin'ss neanderwoman disappears.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ LMAO At least the 'kidnapped negresses' theory sounds more plausible than the theory of a neolithic slave trade as explanation for the presence of African lineages in southern Europe, especially in Greece, even though such lineages are paternal. Perhaps these were paleolithic white Amazon women who kidnapped and enslaved 'negro men'! LOL

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

Yes "basic white type" is essentially "black Caucasoid". Angel. who I think invented the terminology identifies it with the 26th dynasty Libyo-Egyptians.

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If this was Angel, as in Dr. Larry Angel, I am a bit surprised. Especially considering Larry Angel was the mentor of Dr. Shomarka Keita. Thank God for scientific progress.

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lol!That would be too clever of Neanderdullwoman to be "white Nubian". on second thought. it is funny how she shows up right as the Lyin'ss neanderwoman disappears.

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It's precisely due to this coincidence of 'White Nubian' appearing when Lyinass disappears that I suspect they are one and the same.

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Yeah we will see if White Nubian makes the same Neanderdumb_ss statements and she is starting to.

Actually Angel's early theories to me explain some of the compromising vagueness in Keita's discussion with regard to the peopling of stone age North Africa.


As for Amazon women kidnapping Negro men - yes I am sure these must have been tall blonds too.lol!


Who knows maybe it continues today.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
What did the earliest Moors i.e. BERBERS from the mountains of Tangiers on the NORTH COAST OF MOROCCO across from Spain and how were they characterized by the Mozabic SPANIARDS.


"The Chronica Mozarabica" also called the "Latin Chronicle of 754" describes what happened when the Syrians met them.
“ They [i.e. the Syrian Arabs] decided on their own initiative to hasten to the sea, crossing the territory of the Moors to attack Tangiers with the Swords. But the army of the Moors, realizing this immediately burst forth from the mountains to the battle naked girded only with loin-cloths covering their shameful parts. When they joined with each other in battle at the Nava river, the Egyptian horses immediately recoiled in flight, as the Moors on their beautiful horses revealed their repulsive colour and gnashed their white teeth. Despairing, they launched another attack, the Arab cavalry again instantly recoiled due to the colour of the Moors’skin.”

See p. 71 Ibn Garcia’s Shu’ubiyya Letter: Ethnic and Theological Tensions in Medieval by Goran Larsson 2003 published by Brill.


Now I wonder if the Euronuts and their worshippers can tell us why the Syrians and their horses would be so repulsed at the skin color of the Moors bursting out of their northern Moroccan mountain strongholds, because I personally can hardly imagine.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
What did the earliest Moors i.e. BERBERS from the mountains of Tangiers on the NORTH COAST OF MOROCCO across from Spain and how were they characterized by the Mozabic SPANIARDS.


"The Chronica Mozarabica" also called the "Latin Chronicle of 754" describes what happened when the Syrians met them in that early period.
“ They [i.e. the Syrian Arabs] decided on their own initiative to hasten to the sea, crossing the territory of the Moors to attack Tangiers with the Swords. But the army of the Moors, realizing this immediately burst forth from the mountains to the battle naked girded only with loin-cloths covering their shameful parts. When they joined with each other in battle at the Nava river, the Egyptian horses immediately recoiled in flight, as the Moors on their beautiful horses revealed their repulsive colour and gnashed their white teeth. Despairing, they launched another attack, the Arab cavalry again instantly recoiled due to the colour of the Moors’ skin.”

See p. 71 Ibn Garcia’s Shu’ubiyya Letter: Ethnic and Theological Tensions in Medieval al-Andalus by Goran Larsson 2003 published by Brill.


Now I wonder if the Euronuts and their worshippers can tell us why the Syrians and their horses would be so repulsed at the skin color of these early Moors bursting out of their northern Moroccan mountain strongholds, because I personally can hardly imagine - unless of course they were as other Latin's had said "black as night" (St Isidore) and as "pitch" Alfonso X.
 

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