Is Kmtian wavy and straight hair the only trait not shared with Ancient Nubians?
^Skull excavated in Kerma
Ok, so I've decided to stay away from ES a few months ago, but I have something to share which I think a lot of people will find valuable to have as a confirmation.
I've been suspecting this for ages, but I just didn't have the hard evidence to boldly state it as fact. I had a hard time understanding why we had to look to areas distant from Ancient Egypt to find evidence of straight and wavy haired Africans. I also had a hard time understanding why their cross section index, unlike other (osteological) variables, didn't seem to change over time. For example, the Naqadans had affinity with more southern, Nile Valley Africans, in virtually all measurable respects; Nasal index, Limb length, head size, facial index, prognathism etc.
Studies generally converge on the idea that a change occurred, that morphed the predynastic Egyptian Nubian-like physique, to the coastal North African mean we see already preponderant in some areas in Late Dynastic times.
When those two ends of the spectrum (predynastic. vs Late dynastic) are compared, we get what Zakrezewski reported for the E-series: no continuation, and a staunch break in cranio-metric trends. This is all very logical and what one would expect, yet, for some reason, there was no similar change in their hair type and texture from whooly to wavy. Instead we get reports from several studies, about how the AE's, including the Southern ones, had cross section indices typical of coastal Northern Africans and Europeans since Predynastic times.
Even Keita, an avid supporter of the idea that Ancient Northern Sudanese were ethnically the closest to AE's must've felt uncomfortable lookings as far as the distant Kanuri, Fulani and Somali people to explain away the hair type of Predynastic Egyptians. Furthermore, of the populations he mentioned, only Somali hair aproaches the hair characteristics that Strouhal obtained for his Badarian sample.
I always took the absense of Nubians among the populations Keita cited, as an indication that reasonable research into Ancient Nubian hair led him to subscribe to the idea that it really was as whooly/tightly curled as the Egyptians made it out to be in so many of their tomb depictions, so I never bother to research it myself.
Anyway, to make a long story short, yesterday I remembered reading from a book written by Samual Morton (yeah, that pseudoscientist), and decided to dig it up. The information in it led me to do a thorough search on available sources that deal with Nubian hair.
The following is what I found, and wanted to share.
Notes
*In the pages that were available for viewing, there were more mentions of hair that don't talk about hair type. I left those out, because they're not relevant here.
*The text makes questionable references to Egyptic types and ‘’actual’’ Egyptians, you know, same ol, same ol. They also talk about so-called "aliens" (meaning foreigners) among the interred. I took all hair data, regardless of the conjecture that accompanied it, and placed the data in the table, since all of the covered regions are south of Egypt. If you feel that that’s a problem, step up playa. Show me how Elliot Smith were able to distinguish between Egyptian and Northern Sudanese, using their early 20th century crude Methods. *The exact pages from which I lifted the quotes are listed in the table, along with the burial nr.
*There are more quotes that list hair structure in the book, I only took those that were not hidden from view. If you want the remaining quotes, you can dig them up yourself.
*Since I used keywords to locate the citations, I might have missed two or three citations in the instances where the author worded his hair observations in a way that was incompatible with my keyword, eg, curly ''headed’’, instead of curly ''hair’’.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
The following screenshots are citations that describe the hair types found on individuals interred in areas that are (mostly) directly below the 1st cataract:
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Sources:
The Archological Survey of Nubia: Report For 1907-1908 -G. Elliot Smith,F. Wood Jones
Crania Ægyptiaca, or, Observations on Egyptian ethnography -Samuel George Morton
The specific pages from the book will have to wait. Imageshack is acting up. will be back tonight.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
You do realize the Euronuts will use the wavy-haired Nubians as proof that Nubians were mulattoes rather than actually Black, don't you?
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
^^^ The fact is Euronuts will have to explain how hair type is associated with race first off.
@Swenet..
First off whats up bro, Welcome back hope you are here to stay at least for a while.
second here is something Interesting I found from excavations from Senema South..
This one shows the same results, they even go as far as to claim that the X group(Later Nubians) became more "Negriod" despite the small population size. The Sennama South Study was the best preserved..
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:you do realize the Euronuts will use the wavy-haired Nubians as proof that Nubians were mulattoes rather than actually Black, don't you?
^Brace makes the following point:
quote: An earlier generation of anthropologists tried to explain face form in the Horn of Africa as the result of admixture from hypothetical “wandering Caucasoids,” (Adams, 1967, 1979; MacGaffey, 1966; Seligman, 1913, 1915, 19341, but that explanation founders on the paradox of why that supposedly potent “Caucasoid” people contributed a dominant quantity of genes for nose and face form but none for skin color or limb proportions.
To make it apply to our situation, change the words: ''genes for nose and face'', to ''genes for straighter hair'', so the sentence reads:
but that explanation founders on the paradox of why that supposedly potent “Caucasoid” people contributed a dominant quantity of genes for hair form but none for skin color or limb proportions Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^ The fact is Euronuts will have to explain how hair type is associated with race first off.
@Swenet..
First off whats up bro, Welcome back hope you are here to stay at least for a while.
second here is something Interesting I found from excavations from Senema South..
This one shows the same results, they even go as far as to claim that the X group(Later Nubians) became more "Negriod" despite the small population size. The Sennama South Study was the best preserved..
Hey Jari, thnx. I'm familiar with that paper, I believe Myra has a link to it on her website.
Gotta go for now.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
^ When you come back, I must ask you about this statement of yours:
quote:This is all very logical and what one would expect, yet, for some reason, there was no similar change in their hair type and texture from whooly to wavy. Instead we get reports from several studies, about how the AE's, including the Southern ones, had cross section indices typical of coastal Northern Africans and Europeans since Predynastic times.
Where did you read about these reports? As I recall, predynastic Egyptian hair has indices between 35 and 65, well within the range of curly hair.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] ^^^ The fact is Euronuts will have to explain how hair type is associated with race first off.
Once again you are at odd with forensic science, dermatologists and physical anthropology.
Different races have different hair follicles, hence different hair texture and growth.
Negroids have the shortest hair texture and slowest growth of hair at only 0.6 cm a month. Caucasoid hair can grow long with a hair growth of 1.2 cm a month, Mongoloids can grow the longest hair and fastest hair growth at 1. 4 cm a month.
Caucasoid hair texture is cymotrichous (wavy) while Negroid ulotrichous (wooly).
Negroids don't have straight-wavy hair. There is a lot of self-hate among blacks though that project this fantasy that they do. They hate their 'nappy hair' or afros. In fact black people call straight hair ''good hair'', while wooly hair 'bad'. Hence black woman go to the extremes to artificially straighten their hair.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
Here are some sources on the racial differences in hair -
Not only do Caucasoid, Mongoloids and Negroids differ in hair texture but also the levels of amino acids in the hair.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: You do realize the Euronuts will use the wavy-haired Nubians as proof that Nubians were mulattoes rather than actually Black, don't you?
what you said and the charts presented seem to contradict the thread title:
"Is Kmtian wavy and straight hair the only trait not shared with Ancient Nubians?"
The charts are showing that some ancient Nubians also had straight or wavy hair.
.
.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Ancient Egyptian hair
Across the web assorted "biodiversity" proponents, wage a 'racial war' using hair studies of ancient Egyptians to prove a "Caucasian Egypt". But in fact the hair of Africans is highly variable, debunking their simplistic claims.
The hair of Africans is highly variable, ranging from tight curls of South African Bantu, to the loose curls and straight hair of peoples of East and NE Africa, all indigenously evolved over millennia as part of Africa’s high genetic diversity. This diversity undermines and ultimately dismisses simplistic "racial" claims based on hair.
Inconsistencies of the skewed "true negro" model and definitions of African hair
Dubious assertions, double standards and outmoded racial hair claims: Czech anthropologist Strouhal's 1971 study touched on hair, and advanced the most extreme racial definitions, claiming Nubians to be white Europids overrun by later waves of Negroes, and that few Negroes appeared in Egypt until the New Kingdom. Indeed, Strouhal went so far as to argue that 'Negroes' failed to survive long in Egypt, because they were ill-adapted to its arid climate! Tell that to the Saharans, Sudanese and Nubians! Such dubious claims have been thoroughly debunked by modern scholarship, however they continue in various guises by those who attempt to use "hair" to assign race 'percents' and categories to the ancients. Attempts to define racial categories based on the ancient hair rely heavily on extreme definitions, with "Negroids" typically being defined as narrowly as possible. Everything not meeting the extreme "type" is then classified as something else, such as "Caucasian".
Kieta (1990, Studies of Crania from Northern Africa) notes that while many scholars in the field have used an extreme "true negro" definition for African peoples, few have attempted to apply the same model in reverse and define a "true white." Such racial double standards are typical of much scholarship on the ancient Nile Valley peoples. A consistent approach for example would define the straight hair in Strouhal's hair sample as an exclusive Caucasian marker (10 out of 49 or approximately 20%) and make the rest (wavy and curled) hybrid or negro, at >80%. Assorted writers who support the Aryan race percent model however, are careful to avoid such consistency and typically only run the comparison one way.
QUOTE: "Strouhal (1971) microscopically examined some hair which had been preserved on a Badarian skull. The analysis was interpreted as suggesting a stereotypical tropical African-European hybrid (mulatto). However this hair is grossly no different from that of Fulani, some Kanuri, or Somali and does not require a gene flow explanation any more than curly hair in Greece necessarily does. Extremely "wooly" hair is not the only kind native to tropical Africa.." (S. O. Y. Keita. (1993). "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54)
Disturbing attempts to use hair to prove race theories: Fletcher (2002) in Egyptian Hair and Wigs, gives an example of what she calls "disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender" involving 1800s European researcher F. Petrie, who sometimes sought to use excavation reports to prove his theories of Aegean settlers flowing into Egypt. Such disturbing attempts continue today in the use of hair for race category or percentage claims involving the ancient peoples, such as the "racial" analysis seen on several Internet blogs and websites, some thinly disguised fronts for neo-nazi groups or sympathizers.
Hair study applied a stereotyped "true negro" model and used late period samples of Egypt, after the coming of Greeks, Hyskos, etc as "representative" excluding the previous 2500 years of ancient civilization. A study of the hair of Egyptian mummies by Czech anthropologists Titlbachova and Titllbach (1977) (reported in Strouhal 1977) using only late period samples found a wide range of hair in mummies. Of the 14 samples, only 4 were from the south of Egypt, and none of the 14 samples were earlier than the 18th Dynasty. Essentially the previous 2,000 years + of Egyptain civilization and peopling are not represented. Only the narrowest definition is used to identify 'true negro' types'. All other intermediate types were deemed 'non-negroid.' If a similar procedure is used in reverse and designates only straight hair as a marker of a European, then only 4 out of 14 or 29% of the samples can be deemed "Caucasoid." Below is a breakdown of the Czech data:
Sample# 5- 18th-21st dynasties- Deir el medina- curly Sample# 8- 21st-25th dynasties- hair looks straight Sample# 11- Late to Greek Period- hair partly wavy Sample# 18- Late period Egypt- hair fine diameter Sample# 19- Greek period- wavy hair Sample# 29- 18-21st Dynasties- Deir El Medina- hair shape unascertainable - south Sample# 31- 18-21st dynasties- Deir El Median- wavy to curly - south Sample# 33- 21st-25th dynasties- appears straight Sample# 34- 21st-25th dynasties- shape difficult to determine Sample# 35- 21st-25th dynasties- wavy shape Sample# 40- 21-25th Dynasties- hair curly, Sample# 44- 21-25th Dynasties- appears straight Sample# 45- 21-25th Dynasties- appears wavy Sample# 46- Kharga Oasis- 4th-5th centuries AD
Using modern technology, the same Aryan Race models are undercut with the data actually showing that Egyptians group closer to Africans than vaunted white Nordics.
[1]"Nordic hair measurements"[/i]
Neo-Nazis and sympathizers tout the work of German researcher Pruner-Bey in the 1800s which derived racial indexes of hair including Negroes, Egyptians and Germans. Germanic hair is closer to that of the Egyptians they assert. But is it as they claim?
(Data of Bruner-Bey 1864- 'On human hair as a race character') - Negroid index: 57.40 - Egyptian index: 69.94 - White Germans: 66.33 Neo-Nazi conclusion: White German Nordics are 'closer' to Egyptians
Modern data using electron microscopes- Conti-Fuhrman & Massa (1972). Massa and Masali (1980)
Compare to Pruner Bey's 1864 data: - Negroid index: 57.40 - Egyptian index: 60.02 (modern electron microscope data) White Germans: 66.33 ______________________________________________________________________________ Conclusion using modern microscope data: Negroes much ‘closer’ to Egyptians than Nordics _____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Using hair for race identification as older research does can be shaky, but even when used, it undercuts ‘Aryan” clams as shown above.
Fletcher 2002 decries “"disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender..” Other credible scientists note:
"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories. Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable". --Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2
Environmental factors can influence hair color, and the Egyptians routinely placed hair from different sources in mummy wrappings, making claims of "Nordic-haired" or "white" Egyptians dubious.
Mummification practices and dyeing of hair. Hair studies of mummies note that color is often influenced by environmental factors at burial sites. Brothwell and Spearman (1963) point out that reddish-brown ancient color hair is usually the result of partial oxidation of the melanin pigment. Other causes of hair color "blonding" involve bleaching, caused by the alkaline in the mummification process. Color also varies due to the Egyptian practice of dyeing hair with henna. Other samples show individuals lightening the hair using vegetable colorants. Thus variations in hair color among mummies do not necessarily suggest the presence of blond or red-haired Europeans or Near Easterners flitting about Egypt before being mummified, but the influence of environmental factors.
Egyptian practice of putting locks of hair in mummy wrappings. Racial analysis is also made problematic by the Egyptian practice of burying hair, in many "votive or funerary deposits buried separately from the body, a practice found from Predynastic to Roman times despite its frequent omission from excavation reports." (Fletcher 2002) In examining hair samples Fletcher (2004) notes that care is needed to determine what is natural scalp hair, versus hair from a wig, versus hair extensions to natural locks. Tracking the exact source of hair is also critical since the Egyptians were known to have placed locks of hair from different sources among mummy wrappings. (The Search for Nefertiti, By Joann Fletcher, HarperCollins, 2004, p. 93-94, 96)
Egyptians shaved much of their natural hair off and used wigs extensively as covering, obtaining much of the hair for wigs through trade. Discoveries" of "Aryan" or 'Nordic" hair are thus hardly 'proof' of incoming Caucasoids, but may be simply hair purchased from some source and made into a wig. This is much less dramatic than the exciting picture of inflowing 'Aryan' hordes.
The ancient Egyptians shaved off much of their own natural hair as a matter of personal hygiene and custom, and wore wigs in public. According to the Encyclopedia of body adornment (Margo DeMello, 2007, Greenwood Publishing Group, p. 101), "Boys and girls until puberty wore their hair shaved except for a side locl left on the side of their head. Many adults- both men and women- also shaved their hair as a way of coping with heat and lice. However, adults did not go about bald, and instead wore wigs in public and in private.. Wigs were initially worn by the elites, but later worn by women of all classes.."
The widespread use of wigs in ancient Egypt thus complicates and contradicts attempts at 'racial' analysis. Fletcher (2002) shows that many Egyptian wigs have been found with what is defined as straighter 'cynotrichous' hair. This however is hardly a marker of massive European or Near Eastern presence or admixture. Fletcher notes that the Egyptians often eschewed their own personal hair, shaving carefully and using wigs widely. The hair for these wigs was often obtained through trade. Indeed, "hair itself being a valuable commodity ranked alongside gold and incense in account lists from the town of Kahun." Image gallery | Articles | Google
Egyptian trading links with other regions is well known, and a commodity like straighter 'cynotrichous' hair could have been easily obtained via the Sahara, Levant, the Maghreb, Mediterranean contacts, or even the hair of Asiatic war captives or casualties from Egypt's numerous conflicts. There is little need to postulate mass influxes of European admixtures or populations to account for hair types in wigs. The limb proportion studies of the ancient Egyptians showing them to be much more related to tropical types than to Europids, is further demonstration of the fallacy of using hair as 'proof' of a 'Aryan' or predominantly European admixed Egypt.
Nubian wigs and wigs in Egypt
Such exchanges or use of hair appear elsewhere in the Nile valley. Tomb finds show Nubians themselves wearing wigs of straight hair. But one Nubian from the Royal valley, of the 12th century, named Maherpra, was found to be wearing a wig himself, made up of tightly curled 'negroid' hair, on top of his natural covering (Fletcher 2002). The so-called "Nubian wig" also appears in Egyptian art relief's depicting daily life, a stylistic arrangement thought to imitate those found in southern Egypt or Nubia. Such wigs appear to have been popular with both Egyptians and Nubians. Fletcher 2004 notes that the famous queen Nefertiti made frequent use of the Nubian wig: "Nefertiti and her daughter seem to have set a trend for wearing the Nubian wig.. a coiffure first worn by Nubian mercenaries and clearly associated with the military." A detail of a wall scene in Theban tomb TT.55 shows the queen wearing the Nubian wig. Infantrymen from the Nubia. Note both bow and battle-axe carried into combat.
Nubian infantrymen shown with distinctive Nubian wig. From Deir el-Bahri, Temple of Hatshepsut New Kingdom, Eighteenth Dynasty, 1480 B.C.
Hair studies of Nubians show built-in African genetic variability
Hair studies of Nubians have also been undertaken. One study at Semna, in Nubia (Daniel Hrdy 1978- Analysis of Hair Samples of Mummies from Semna South, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, (1978) 49: 277-262), found curling patterns intermediate between Northwest European and African samples. The X-group, especially males, showed more African elements than the Meroitic in the curling variables. Crimping and curvature data patterned in a northwest Europe direction. These data plots however do not necessarily indicate race admixture or percentages, or the presence of European migrants or colonists (see Keita 2005 below), but rather a data pattern of variation in how hair curls, and native African diversity which cases substantial overlap with non-African groups. This is a routine occurrence within human groups.
Africa has the highest phenotypic variation, just as it has the highest geentic variation- accommodating a wide range of features for its peoples without the need for any "race mix: Relethford (2001) shows that ".. methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies." (Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5, October 2001, pp. 629-636) Hanihara 2003 notes that [significant] "..intraregional diversity are present in Subsaharan Africans.." While ancient Egypt had gene flow in various eras, hair variations easily fall under this pattern of built-in, indigenous diversity, as well as the above noted cultural practice of using wigs with hair from different places obtained through trade.
Among Europeans for example, some people have curlier hair and some have straighter hair than others. Various peoples of East and West Africa also have narrow noses, which are different from other peoples elsewhere in Africa, nevertheless they still remain Africans. DNA studies also note greater variation within selected populations that without. Since Africa has the highest genetic diversity in the world, such routine variation in characteristics such as hair need not indicate any racial percentage or admixture, but simply part of the built-in genetic diversity of the ancient peoples on the continent. Indeed, the Semna study author notes that blondism, especially in young children, is common in many dark-haired populations (e.g., Australian, Melanesian), and is still found in some Nubian villages. As regards hair color variation, reddish type hair is associated with the presence of pheomelanin, which can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well. See "Rameses" below. Albinism is another source of red hair.
Dubious attempts at 'racial analysis' using Nubian hair and crania. Assorted supporters of the stereotypical Aryan 'race' model attempt to use hair to argue for a predominantly 'white' Nubia. But as noted above, such attempts are dubious given built-in African genetic diversity. Often 'racial' hair claims attempt to link on with cranial studies purporting to match ancient Nubians with Swedes, Frenchmen, etc. But such claims are also dubious. In a detailed analysis of the Fordisc computer program used to put forward such claims, Williams, Armelagos, et al. (2005) found that the program created ludicrous "matches" between the ancient Nubian crania and peoples from Hungary, Japan, Easter Island and a host of others in far-flung regions! Their conclusion was that the diversity of human populations in the databank explained such wide ranging matches. Such objective mainstream analyses debunk obsolete and improbable claims of 'racial' migrations of alleged Frenchman, Hungarians, or other whites into ancient Nubia, or equally improbable racial 'percentages' supposedly quantifying such claims. (Frank l'engle Williams, Robert L. Belcher, and George J . Armelagos, "Forensic Misclassification of Ancient Nubian Crania: Implications for Assumptions about Human Variation," Current Anthropology, volume 46 (2005), pages 340-346)
Alleged massive influx of Europeans and Middle Easterners to give the ancient peoples hair variation did not happen. Such variation was already in place as part of Africa' built in genetic and phenotypic diversity. As regards diameter, the average diameter of the Semna sample was close to both the Northwest European and East African samples. This again suggests a range of built-in African indigenous variability, and calls into questions various migration theories to the Nile Valley. One study for example (Keita 2005) tested the model of C. Loring Brace (1993) as to the notion of incoming European migrants replacing indigenous peoples of the Nile Valley. Brace's work had also suggested a relationship between northwest Europeans such as Scandanavians and African peoples of the Horn. Data analysis failed to support this model, instead clustering samples much closer to African series than to Europeans. Keita concluded that similarities between African data in his survey (skulls, etc) and non-Africans was not due to gene flow, but a subset of built-in African variability.
Ancient Egyptians cluster much closer to other Egyptians and Nubians. A later study by Brace, (Brace 2005- The questionable contribution..) groups ancient Egyptian populations like the Naqada closer to Nubians and Somalis than European, Mediterranean or Middle Eastern populations, and places various Nubians samples closer to Tanzanian, Dahomeian, and Congoid data points than to Europeans and Middle easterners. The limb proportion studies of Zakrzewski (2003) (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.) showing the tropical body plan of the ancient Egyptians also undercuts theories of inflowing European or near Eastern colonists, or the 'native Europid' model of Strouhal (1971).
The yellowish-red-hair of Rameses: proof of a Nordic Egypt?
Red hair itself is within the range of African diversity or that of dark-skinned peoples. Native black Australoids for example routinely produce blonde hair:
Detailed microscopic analysis during the 1980s (Balout 1985) identified some of the hair of Egyptian Pharoah Rameses II as being a yellowish-red. Such a finding should not be surprising given the wide range of physical variability in Africa, the most genetically diverse region on earth, out of which flowed other population groups. Indeed, blondism and various other hair shades are not unknown in East Africa or Nubia, particularly in children, nor are such hair color variants uncommon in dark-haired or dark skinned populations like the Australians. (Hrdy 1978) Given the range of genetic variability in Africa, a red-haired Rameses is hardly unusual. Rameses' reign, in the 19th Dynasty, came over 1,500 years after the Egyptian state had been established, and after the Hyskos interlude. Such latecomers to Egypt, like the Hyskos, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs etc would add their own genetic strands to the nation’s mix. Whatever the blend of genes that occurred with Rameses, his hair offers little supposed "proof" of a "white" or "Nordic" Egypt. If anything, X-rays of the royal mummies from earlier Dynasties by mainstream scientists show that the Egyptians pharaohs and other royals had varied 'Negroid' leanings. See X-Rays of the Royal mummies here, or here.
Pheomelanin and Rameses- found in light and dark-haired populations: The finding of Rameses “red” hair also deserves further scrutiny. The analysis found evidence of dyeing to make the hair yellowish-red, but some elements were untouched by the dye. These elements of yellowish-red hair in Balout’s study, were established on the basis of the presence of pheomelanin, a red-brown polymeric pigment in the skin and hair of humans. However, pheomelanin can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well, which gives it a reddish hue. Most natural melanins contain sulfur, which is typically associated with pheomelanin. In scientific tests of melanin, black hair contained as much as 5% sulfur, 3% lower than the 8.8% found in Irish red hair, but exceeding the 2.3% found in Scandinavian blond hair. (Jolles, et al. 1996) Thus the yellowish-red hair discovered on Rameses is well within the range of human variation for dark haired people, whatever the exact gene combination that led to the condition.
Rameses hair was not a typical European red, but yellowish-red, within African variation. It was also not ultra straight, further undermining claims of "Nordic" influence. Somalians and Ethiopians are SUB-SAHARANS and they routinely produce straight-haired people without the need for any "race mix" to explain why. The analysis on Rameses also did not show classic "European" red hair but hair of a light red to yellowish tinge. Black haired or dark-skinned populations are quite capable of producing such yellowish-red color variants on their own, as can be seen in today's east and northeast Africa (see child's photo above). Nor is such color variation unusual to Africa. Native dark-skinned populations in Australia, routinely produce people with blond or reddish hair. As noted above, ultra diverse Africa is the original source of such variation.
The analysis also found the hair to be cymotrich or wavy, again a characteristic quite within the range of overall African or Nile valley physical and genetic diversity. A "pure" Nordic type of straight hair was thus not established for Rameses. Hence the notion of white Europeans or red-headed Caucasoids from other areas flowing into ancient Egypt to add hair variation, particularly the early centuries of the dynastic state is unlikely. Such flows may have occurred most heavily in the Greek and Roman era but say nothing about the thousands of years preceding. The presence of pheomelanin conditions or other genetic combinations also explains how the different hair used in Egyptian wigs could vary in color, aside from environmental oxidation, bleaching and dyeing.
Red hair is rare worldwide, and history shows little evidence of Northern Europeans or "Nordics" sweeping into Egypt to give the natives a bit of hair coloring or variation. Most red hair is found in northern and western Europe, especially in the British Isles, and even then it appears in minor frequencies in Europe- some 4% of the population. It is unlikely such populations had any major contact or influence in the ancient Nile Valley. As noted above, red hair is comparatively rare in the world’s populations and pheomelanin conditions are found in dark-haired populations, and thus is well within the range of variation from the Sahara, East Africa and the Nile valley. “White Aryan” theories of Egypt are seen in the works of HFK Gunther (1927), Archibald Sayce (1925) and Raymond Dart (1939), and still find traction on a number of 'Aryan', neo-nazi and "race" websites and blogs which purport to show a "white Nordic Egypt" using Rameses' "red" hair as an example. Today's scientific research however, has debunked these dubious views, showing that red hair, while not common world wide, is a well known variant within human populations, even those with dark hair.
Straight or curly hair is also routine among sub-Saharans like Somalians, who are firmly part of the East African populations. As regards Somalians for example, Somali DNA overwhelmingly links much more heavily with other Africans including Kenyans & Ethiopians (85%), than with Europeans & Middle Easterners. (15%) On Y-chromosome markers (E3b1), Somalis (77%) and other African populations dwarf small European (5.1%) or Middle Eastern (6.3%) frequencies. “The data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population..” (Sanchez et al., High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages.. in Somali males (2005)
As one mainstream researcher notes about the dubious value of "racial" hair analysis:
"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories. Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable". --Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: ^ When you come back, I must ask you about this statement of yours:
quote:This is all very logical and what one would expect, yet, for some reason, there was no similar change in their hair type and texture from whooly to wavy. Instead we get reports from several studies, about how the AE's, including the Southern ones, had cross section indices typical of coastal Northern Africans and Europeans since Predynastic times.
Where did you read about these reports? As I recall, predynastic Egyptian hair has indices between 35 and 65, well within the range of curly hair.
The info I'm referring to is implied in the very study you're mentioning right now, among other studies, some of which you've posted earlier.
Keep in mind that the Strouhal meassurements you're citing were obtained from what he saw as the ''racially intermediate'' componant of his total hair sample. In other words, the cross sections of the straight hairs were not a part of that specific examination, only a few of the wavy and curly ones.
Already forgot about posting this?
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: To be honest, though, I'm not so sure the Egyptians had curly hair on average. According to this study done on Egyptian hair, the average trichometer index ranged between 65.2 and 72.1, the latter rating being typical of straighter hair (though admittedly the 72.1 rating came from a small predynastic sample).
quote:Different races have different hair follicles, hence different hair texture and growth.
First you say Indians are Caucasians, then you say that wavy is a Caucasoid trait. Well, Indians don't have wavy hair. Chew on this:
The older terms “Mongoloid,” “Caucasoid,” and “Negroid” used to describe the major population groups of humankind are replaced in this atlas with the more modern terms East Asian, European, and African (meaning sub-Saharan African), respectively. These terms were adapted from Brace. 27 The populations of the Indian subcontinent are allied with the European populations in terms of anthropological kinship. 28 However, the scalp hair of the Indian subcontinent populations is more closely allied with the hair type of the East Asian populations, as is the scalp hair of the native populations of North, Central, and South America. Atlas of Human Hair -Robert R. Ogle, Jr.
As was explained by Jari, hair form has nothing to do with ''race''.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: As was explained by Jari, hair has nothing to do with ''race''. [/QB]
Different races have different hair textures. This is anthropological fact. Negroids don't have straight hair, and Caucasoids don't have wooly.
You are clearly not a man of science. You and Jari are two cranks who continue to dismiss anthropology and forensic science etc for your own political bias.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: 27 The populations of the Indian subcontinent are allied with the European populations in terms of anthropological kinship. 28 However, the scalp hair of the Indian subcontinent populations is more closely allied with the hair type of the East Asian populations, as is the scalp hair of the native populations of North, Central, and South America.[/i] Atlas of Human Hair -Robert R. Ogle, Jr.
India has been inhabited by many different races (Veddoids, Caucasoids, Negrito). You can find a diverse range of hair texture. Palaeolithic Indians were Negrito and Veddoid, later there was a Dravidian (Caucasoid) migration during the Neolithic, and later during the Iron Age Aryans (Caucasoids) further mixed.
The Veddahs (Veddoids) don't have straight hair, theirs is wavy.
You seriously need to do some research.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
Indians (Paniya) of Negrito strain from Kerala:
Are you saying these people are straight haired? Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:India has been inhabited by many different races (Veddoids, Caucasoids, Negrito). You can find a diverse range of hair texture. Palaeolithic Indians were Negrito and Veddoid, later there was a Dravidian (Caucasoid) migration during the Neolithic, and later during the Iron Age Aryans (Caucasoids) further mixed.
The Veddahs (Veddoids) don't have straight hair, theirs is wavy.
Pray tell, how is this relevant to what I just said to you? Are you actually dumb enough to think that Robert R. Ogle was talking about those minorities, when he wrote ''people of the Indian subcontinent''?
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
When those two ends of the spectrum (predynastic. vs Late dynastic) are compared, we get what Zakrezewski reported for the E-series: no continuation, and a staunch break in cranio-metric trends. This is all very logical and what one would expect, yet, for some reason, there was no similar change in their hair type and texture from whooly to wavy. Instead we get reports from several studies, about how the AE's, including the Southern ones, had cross section indices typical of coastal Northern Africans and Europeans since Predynastic times.
^^I see what you are saying but the mismatch, but as noted elsewhere, it does not necessarily follow that brown or black skin and tropical limb proportions HAVE TO ALSO be accompanied by kinky hair. There are tropically adapted peoples on the Indian sub-continent, who have wavy or looser hair. No one expects that dark brown Italians MUST also have kinky hair. But when it comes to Africa too often stereotypical models reign.
Sad to say, but it must be repeated multiple times: African peoples are diverse. Wavy hair is nothing special as part of the BUILT-IN, INDIGENOUS variation among tropical Africans, the most diverse population in the world. There could be Nubians with BOTH wavy and woolly hair, just as there are jet black Indian area peoples with BOTH woolly and wavy hair. Such a co-existence is nothing new, and nothing special in Africa. Narrow noses and broad noses for example, BOTH co-exist between tropical African peoples a few dozen kilometers apart.
I believe we have to be careful and not fall into the Euronut trap of using tightly curled hair as yet another "true negro" proxy element. Again, "kinky" hair is not an "African" thing. Such hair is found as far away as Papua New Guinea. Nor is it necessarily a "tropical" thing. Peoples in tropical zones elsewhere ALSO have straight or wavy hair. Let us not make African peoples out to be some sort of special case of stereotyped features where human variation is concerned.
Even Keita, an avid supporter of the idea that Ancient Northern Sudanese were ethnically the closest to AE's must've felt uncomfortable lookings as far as the distant Kanuri, Fulani and Somali people to explain away the hair type of Predynastic Egyptians. Furthermore, of the populations he mentioned, only Somali hair aproaches the hair characteristics that Strouhal obtained for his Badarian sample.
I always took the absense of Nubians among the populations Keita cited, as an indication that reasonable research into Ancient Nubian hair led him to subscribe to the idea that it really was as whooly/tightly curled as the Egyptians made it out to be in so many of their tomb depictions, so I never bother to research it myself.
I am not at all sure that Keita would feel uncomfortable, by the distant peoples used as a comparison. Why? He specifically fingers obsolete stereotypical thinking as a central problem.
Note Hrdy's 1978 Senna study above- it found that Nubians did not have one single type of woolly hair, but had variation. This in itself is nothing special. Africa is the home of variation. Again, tropical Africans are diverse. They CAN have a wide range of hair, just as they have a wide range of noses and skin colors.
As to Strouhal, he uses the same obsolete stereotyped models- circa 1971. He uses the "true negro" model applied to hair, but never the reverse. Why for example doenst he come up with a "true white" hair standard and only count pale people with very straight hair as "Caucasoid"? But he doesnt as it would undermine the dubious, stereotypical Eurocentric model of African diversity. This is the same Strouhal who claims that "negroes" allegedly, "did not enter" Egypt in any measurable numbers until the New Kingdom - long debunked and obsolete thinking that few modern scholars would support.
Here is what Keita says on hair:
QUOTE: "Strouhal (1971) microscopically examined some hair which had been preserved on a Badarian skull. The analysis was interpreted as suggesting a stereotypical tropical African-European hybrid (mulatto). However this hair is grossly no different from that of Fulani, some Kanuri, or Somali and does not require a gene flow explanation any more than curly hair in Greece necessarily does. Extremely "wooly" hair is not the only kind native to tropical Africa.."
-- (S. O. Y. Keita. (1993). "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54)
DIVERSITY RECAP The "African climate" incorporates diverse temperature, humidity, atmospheric pressure, wind, rainfall, atmospheric particle count and other meteorological elements in a wide range of environments -- from deserts, to high altitude snowy zones, to jungle, to savannah, to mixed woodlands, to higher altitude cloud forest, and all that is WITHIN the TROPICAL zone of Africa.
And just as tropical African environments are diverse, so are tropical African peoples as credible scientists note time and time again. QUOTES:
Most phenotypic variation "Both methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies." --- Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5, October 2001, pp. 629-636)
Most genetic variation "Africa contains tremendous cultural, linguistic and genetic diversity, and has more than 2,000 distinct ethnic groups and languages.. Studies using mitochondrial (mt)DNA and nuclear DNA markers consistently indicate that Africa is the most genetically diverse region of the world." ---Tishkoff SA, Williams SM., Genetic analysis of African populations: human evolution and complex disease. Nature Reviews Genetics. 2002 Aug (8):611-21.)
Most skin color variation "Previous studies of genetic and craniometric traits have found higher levels of within-population diversity in sub-Saharan Africa compared to other geographic regions. This study examines regional differences in within-population diversity of human skin color. Published data on skin reflectance were collected for 98 male samples from eight geographic regions: sub-Saharan Africa, North Africa, Europe, West Asia, Southwest Asia, South Asia, Australasia, and the New World. Regional differences in local within-population diversity were examined using two measures of variability: the sample variance and the sample coefficient of variation. For both measures, the average level of within-population diversity is higher in sub-Saharan Africa than in other geographic regions. This difference persists even after adjusting for a correlation between within-population diversity and distance from the equator. Though affected by natural selection, skin color variation shows the same pattern of higher African diversity as found with other traits."
-- Relethford JH.(2000). Human skin color diversity is highest in sub-Saharan African populations. Hum Biol. 2000 Oct;72(5):773-80.)
More tropically proportioned diversity ...... note brachial and cural indexes Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:^^As noted elsewhere, it does not necessarily follow that brown or black skin and tropical limb proportions HAVE TO ALSO be accompanied by straighter hair. There are tropically adapted peoples on the Indian sub-continent, who have wavy or looser hair. No one expects that dark brown Italians MUST also have kinky hair. But when it comes to Africa too often stereotypical models reign.
The point was made, clearly, from the perspective that the predynastic Egyptians were Nubian-like in all scientifically discernable manners, and since Nubians are commonly depicted as anything BUT straight/wavy haired, by both ancient Ethnographers, and Egyptian artwork, there is an obvious incongruence there.
This has nothing to do with being unfair to African variability, and being more acceptive of variation when it comes to other nations. Variability has limits, and it works logically, not spastically. Two sister populations don't just diverge on one single aspect, and remain the same in all others. I was operating from that perspective. I'm not going to sit there, and turn a blind eye to inconsistencies, under the guise of ''ow, every form of variation is because of indigenous variation''.
As it turns out, I was right about finding something incongruent about the picture of Nubians and Egyptians being alike in all manners aside from hair form. The thing that was inconsistent was the portrayal of the hair forms of Northern Sudanese groups, as the data in the OP's shows.
quote:I am not at all sure that Keita would feel uncomfortable, by the distant peoples used as a comparison. Why? He specifically fingers obsolete stereotypical thinking as a central problem
Well, because if he wasn't aware of the fact that (some) Nubians had the same hair forms, he could've been aware of the fact that he could be inadvertently reinforcing the idea that there IS something out of the ordinary about Ancient Egyptian hair, if other populations are invoked instead of their closest relatives, Nubians, to explain predynastic Egypian hair forms.
I have reason to believe that Keita in fact does NOT know about research of the kind presented in this thread, one of which, is him saying that only a certain percentage of Badarian hair is African (I believe it was 80%), rather than accepting ALL of it as African, as he clearly would have done, if he was aware of the fact that the people directly below the 1st cataract had identical hair.
This is not a shot at him either, I'm just stating that he likely felt uncomfortable being forced to cite examples of distant populatons as comparative examples, rather than the more appropriate Nubians.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
these charts distinguish wavy and straight as separate categories and list other types of hair:
straight
slightly wavy
wavy
curly
typical Negroid
typical Negroid peppercorn
one might expect there to be a tribe in North Africa with long straight hair
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
Let's correct your pseudo-science...
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: There are tropically adapted peoples on the Indian sub-continent, who have wavy or looser hair.
Indeed there is, but they are Australoid, not Negroid. No one has ever denied that Australoids are wavy-haired.
quote:But when it comes to Africa too often stereotypical models reign.
Sterotypical models exist for all races, since all races have different phenotypic traits.
quote:African peoples are diverse.
Africa has been inhabited, and still is - by many different races. So please clarify by what race you mean by 'african people'.
quote:Wavy hair is nothing special as part of the BUILT-IN, INDIGENOUS variation among tropical Africans, the most diverse population in the world.
Wavy hair in Africa is a product of Caucasoid genes. East Africans are partial Caucasoid hence some have straighter hair.
quote:There could be Nubians with BOTH wavy and woolly hair, just as there are jet black Indian area peoples with BOTH woolly and wavy hair.
There was a Caucasoid strain in Nubians hence some were wavy haired.
quote:Such a co-existence is nothing new, and nothing special in Africa. Narrow noses and broad noses for example, BOTH co-exist between tropical African peoples a few dozen kilometers apart.
The africans with narrower noses have Caucasoid genes - same for straighter hair.
quote:Peoples in tropical zones elsewhere ALSO have straight or wavy hair.
Because they are not Negroid.
quote: *picture*
The woman you posted has fake hair. A mere google search shows her afro hair roots and that her hair is completely artificial.
Negroids self-hate their natural hair texture. You rarely ever see a black woman with their natural afro hair.
This sort of self-hate exists in no other race.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Nubians are commonly depicted as anything BUT straight/wavy haired, by both ancient Ethnographers, and Egyptian artwork, there is an obvious incongruence there.
I am not so sure. I understand what you say about some artworks, but then again, many Egyptians depicted in artworks are not depicted with their natural hair, but in wigs. Hence some might say, we don't have an apples to apples, or in this case, a hair for hair comparison- natural to natural of Egyptians versus Nubians. COmplicating the picture is the fact that the Nubians themselves also wore wigs, and indeed the "Nubian wig" worn by hard-fighting Nubian mercenaries became a fashion statement for some Egyptians per Fletcher above.
We have studies like that of Strouhal, but again, Strouhal was using a rigid racial formula, lumping everything that did not meet an extreme stereotype as "Caucasoid" or "Mixed." Other hair studies like that of Strohual's Czech colleagues use mostly later period dynastic samples, cutting out a huge 2000 year old swath of prior history, and then still use the stereotypical formula -- all not "true negro" goes into the "mixed" or "Caucasoid" column. This stereotypical formula is never applied to whites in reverse.
ALso given the clear "Sudanic" influences in Southern Egypt from the very beginning, people with kinky hair are part and parcel of native Egyptian diversity, just like people with jet black skin have ALWAYS been part of NATIVE Egypt and are not foreign. In other words, just as Nubians themselves varied, so did Egyptians vary, natively, between a range of kinky to straight hair.
Furthermore, wavy hair or straighter, looser hair, as has been noted elsewhere, even if it did depend on gene flow, does not necessarily mean gene flow from OUTSIDE Africa. Gene flow for example from the Horn or East Africa (as shown in the 2004 Gurna study) or ancient Sahara could well have added variation to the hair mix. But even in this case, the inflowing mix is from WITHIN indigenous tropical Africa, not outside from EUropeans or "Middle Easterners." Too often some folks (I do not mean you of course) seem to think that "gene flow" means outside Africa. Not necessarily.
Could it not then be thus said that there is nothing unusual or out of the ordinary at all about Egyptian hair- it is just another routine African pattern of variation? How do you see the possibility of BOTH Nubian and Egyptian hair being variable as part of an indigenous range?
The thing that was inconsistent was the portrayal of the hair forms of Northern Sudanese groups, as the data in the OP's shows.
^^I agree and raise the possibility for the flip side also- that the portrayal of Egyptian hair may not be fully accurate since the Egyptians used wigs heavily, often with hair purchased or obtained from a wide variety of sources. Egyptians portrayed themselves as they wanted to portray themselves- with wigs- not their natural "dos"..
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The point was made, clearly, from the perspective that the predynastic Egyptians were Nubian-like in all scientifically discernable manners, and since Nubians are commonly depicted as anything BUT straight/wavy haired, by both ancient Ethnographers, and Egyptian artwork, there is an obvious incongruence there.
Kushites
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
quote:In other words, just as Nubians themselves varied, so did Egyptians vary, natively, between a range of kinky to straight hair.
The self-hate continues...
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
Negroid hair -
Caucasoid hair -
Caucasoids don't claim to have afros/wooly hair, but Negroids are obsessed with claiming they have straight or wavy hair (when they don't).
It stems down to the fact as Confirming Truth (a black poster on this forum) admits - Negroid racial traits are ugly. Blacks don't want their natural hair (wooly or afro) texture. They crave straighter hair whites have and so troll internet forums claiming they have diverse hair textures.
So where are these straight haired negroids?
When ever i ask for a photo, people fail to show.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Casserites, make it quick, will ya? Stop spastically butting into conversations that don't involve you, and start adressing those that do:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:India has been inhabited by many different races (Veddoids, Caucasoids, Negrito). You can find a diverse range of hair texture. Palaeolithic Indians were Negrito and Veddoid, later there was a Dravidian (Caucasoid) migration during the Neolithic, and later during the Iron Age Aryans (Caucasoids) further mixed.
The Veddahs (Veddoids) don't have straight hair, theirs is wavy.
Pray tell, how is this relevant to what I just said to you? Are you actually dumb enough to think that Robert R. Ogle was talking about those minorities, when he wrote ''people of the Indian subcontinent''?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Nubians are commonly depicted as anything BUT straight/wavy haired, by both ancient Ethnographers, and Egyptian artwork, there is an obvious incongruence there.
I am not so sure. I understand what you say about some artworks, but then again, many Egyptians depicted in artworks are not depicted with their natural hair, but in wigs. Hence some might say, we don't have an apples to apples, or in this case, a hair for hair comparison- natural to natural of Egyptians versus Nubians. COmplicating the picture is the fact that the Nubians themselves also wore wigs, and indeed the "Nubian wig" worn by hard-fighting Nubian mercenaries became a fashion statement for some Egyptians per Fletcher above.
We have studies like that of Strouhal, but again, Strouhal was using a rigid racial formula, lumping everything that did not meet an extreme stereotype as "Caucasoid" or "Mixed." Other hair studies like that of Strohual's Czech colleagues use mostly later period dynastic samples, cutting out a huge 2000 year old swath of prior history, and then still use the stereotypical formula -- all not "true negro" goes into the "mixed" or "Caucasoid" column. This stereotypical formula is never applied to whites in reverse.
ALso given the clear "Sudanic" influences in Southern Egypt from the very beginning, people with kinky hair are part and parcel of native Egyptian diversity, just like people with jet black skin have ALWAYS been part of NATIVE Egypt and are not foreign. In other words, just as Nubians themselves varied, so did Egyptians vary, natively, between a range of kinky to straight hair.
Furthermore, wavy hair or straighter, looser hair, as has been noted elsewhere, even if it did depend on gene flow, does not necessarily mean gene flow from OUTSIDE Africa. Gene flow for example from the Horn or East Africa (as shown in the 2004 Gurna study) or ancient Sahara could well have added variation to the hair mix. But even in this case, the inflowing mix is from WITHIN indigenous tropical Africa, not outside from EUropeans or "Middle Easterners." Too often some folks (I do not mean you of course) seem to think that "gene flow" means outside Africa. Not necessarily.
Could it not then be thus said that there is nothing unusual or out of the ordinary at all about Egyptian hair- it is just another routine African pattern of variation? How do you see the possibility of BOTH Nubian and Egyptian hair being variable as part of an indigenous range?
The thing that was inconsistent was the portrayal of the hair forms of Northern Sudanese groups, as the data in the OP's shows.
^^I agree and raise the possibility for the flip side also- that the portrayal of Egyptian hair may not be fully accurate since the Egyptians used wigs heavily, often with hair purchased or obtained from a wide variety of sources. Egyptians portrayed themselves as they wanted to portray themselves- with wigs- not their natural "dos"..
Ok
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova and Swenet (the two self-hating blacks) here is my question to you:
Is your own hair texture like this:
What's funny is that every afronut on this forum claiming ''blacks are physicall diverse with straight hair'' just turns out to be precisely the stereotypical negro (wooly haired, prognathic, wide nose etc) they are so desperate out of self-hate to deny.
Here is Clyde Winters -
Clyde, like a typical afronut likes to claim blacks have phenotypic diversity such as thin noses and straight hair.
But look at himself. LOL.
Get out of cuckooland and stop the self-hate. Why are you obsessed with claiming Caucasoid features are black?
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
^^I don't know what makes you so dumb but it really works.
bogus claims exposed
Originally posted by cassitrides:
quote: The source is Cavalli-Sforza's book on the Pygmies entitled 'African pygmies' (Academic Press, 1986).
This work shows that Negroids mutated from an ancestral pygmy population around 9,000 BC in West Africa. So the 'true' Black African today is a recent mutation. Caucasoids and Mongoloids predate them. [Wink] Negroids only migrated into other parts of Africa during the Bantu expansion or slightly earlier. Prior to them, Caucasoids inhabited North Africa and Bushmen (Capoids) to the south who were displaced by the Caucasoids from the Mediterranean around 12,000 BC.
^^A bogus reference. Why should anyone take your word for it given past bogus references? Quote where Cavalli-Sforza says these so-called "negroids" "mutated" from Pygmies. The burden of proof is on you, since you made the claim.
While you scurry to cover your tracks with yet more bogus claims, Cavali Sforza, in his well known The History and Geography of Human Genes, 1994 Cavalli-Sforza summarizes his 1986 work on Pygmies and specifically debunks the "Pygmy as ancestor" theory held by other older writings. QUOTE:
"It remains difficult to pinpoint an ancient place of origin for the Negroid type which includes all West, Central and South Africans. Contrary to many earlier opinions, modern Pygmies and Khosians are not good candidates for a proto-African population."
--Cavalli Sforza et al, 1994. The history and geography of human genes. 194
SO much for your lying claims of "mutations" from "Pygymy" ancestors. In short, you lied about Cavalli-Sforza, creating a falsified claim and a bogus "supporting" reference to a claim that is nowhere supported in his work. You are once again exposed as yet another racist, who relies on bogus "evidence" to advance, dubious and debunked claims. You are not fooling anyone.
------------------------
YOu then tried to cover up your lie with even more bogus nformation and STILL fail
You "modified" your Cavalli Sforza claim by including page numbers, and then changing some wording to "adaptive radiation" hoping to divert attention from your exposure.. lmao..
However pages 361-362 of Cavalli Sforza's 1986 book says absolutely nothing about any Negroes "mutating" from pygmies, nor any "adaptive radiation." It merely discusses Pygmy history and geography. You picked out a page at random, not knowing it can be verified via Google Books. You were asked to provide a direct quote but are still running. Now why is that?
""It remains difficult to pinpoint an ancient place of origin for the Negroid type which includes all West, Central and South Africans. Contrary to many earlier opinions, modern Pygmies and Khosians are not good candidates for a proto-African population."
--Cavalli Sforza et al, 1994. The history and geography of human genes. 194
[/QB][/QUOTE]
--------------------------------------
And Your pathetic "modification" STILL turned out to be bogus. You then said:
[b]"True" Black Africans appear as a recent adaptive radiation apparently branching off from an ancestral Pygmy population — a line of ancestry also indicated by osteological data (Coon 1962:651-656; Watson et al. 1996).
^^But in fact, Watson 1996 has nothing to do with osteological data and does not even mention it. It has to do with mtDNA.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
Before we can determine whether or not wholly indigenous Africans can have less than tightly curled hair, we first need to figure out exactly why we have variation in human hair texture to begin with. Some might argue that straighter hair in modern humans is a derived trait characteristic of cold-adapted populations, but that doesn't explain why Australian aborigines, who are otherwise perfectly tropically adapted, have wavy rather than woolly hair (especially since they are sandwiched between woolly-haired populations in New Guinea and Tasmania). How can we determine whether less woolly hair in Africans is a product of admixture with cold-adapted people when we don't even know why most Africans have woolly hair in the first place?
BTW, hair curvature is only one variable of hair morphology; it could very well be that other aspects of Egypto-Nubian hair morphology are more in line with other Africans.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Before we can determine whether or not wholly indigenous Africans can have less than tightly curled hair, we first need to figure out exactly why we have variation in human hair texture to begin with. Some might argue that straighter hair in modern humans is a derived trait characteristic of cold-adapted populations, but that doesn't explain why Australian aborigines, who are otherwise perfectly tropically adapted, have wavy rather than woolly hair (especially since they are sandwiched between woolly-haired populations in New Guinea and Tasmania). How can we determine whether less woolly hair in Africans is a product of admixture with cold-adapted people when we don't even know why most Africans have woolly hair in the first place?
BTW, hair curvature is only one variable of hair morphology; it could very well be that other aspects of Egypto-Nubian hair morphology are more in line with other Africans.
. Also look at the crania of Austrailians, the brow ridge is prominent, closer to Europeans than Africans. Another mystery is if chimps have straight hair and are 94-98% genetically similar to humans with a common ancestor why don't humans have straight hair? Maybe they did originally that's what xxyman thinks.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
Negroid (left) Dravidian Indian (Right)
And the afronuts think they are the same race.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ And who in here besides Clyde Winters thinks Indians and Africans are the same 'race'?? In fact the rest of us don't even ascribe to 'race' as it doesn't really exist anyway!!
Your rants on Indian hair don't even have anything to do with topic of Nubian hair compared to Egyptians!
Begone you idiot! Your very presence here brings down the IQ of this very intelligent thread!...
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:: ^ And who in here besides Clyde Winters thinks Indians and Africans are the same 'race'?? In fact the rest of us don't even ascribe to 'race' as it doesn't really exist anyway!!
this statement is hypocritical it amounts to this:
"race doesn't exist, what idiot would think Africans and Indians were of the same race??? "
Djehuti Fail #6
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Now, back to ignoring the castrated fool...
Welcome back Swenet! I was about to say what Truthcentric and Zarahan have already pointed out that Strouhal found the average indices of predynastic Egyptian hair to be well within the average range of so-called "negroes". As for the wavy texture of the hair, I find it funny that you like Keita point to more distant African groups having such hair like Somalis and other Horn Africans and even Kanuri and Fulani. The Kanuri are found primarily in Chad, while the Fulani are found throughout the Sahel of West Africa. We know the Euronuts are obsessed with the false notion that Horn Africans and Fulani are "caucasian" admixed but what about the Kanuri?? I don't think most Euronuts have even heard of them let alone call them cockasian mixed. Yet the Kanuri look no different from other peoples in Chad despite their hair texture. And what of the Bilma of Uganda whom Ausar first mentioned. Uganda is all the way in central Africa and these people look stereotypically Bantu except their wavy hair texture! There is obviously no denying the inherent diversity of Africa.
While people point to more distant populations what about closer ones nearby such as the Nilo-Saharan speaking Teda people of southeast Libya, or the Siwa Berbers who despite their black appearance still have long wavy hair? In fact the earliest known Libyans, the Tehenu, were depicted by the Egyptians as having long wavy hair despite their African features and dark complexions no different from Egyptians.
Tehenu prisoner
In fact, judging by the incredibly high frequencies in that region I'd say the Sahara seems to be the very source of the long wavy texture among Egyptians and perhaps Nubians. I've long noticed that so many peoples in and around the Sahara (not just Berber speakers) despite their obvious black appearance have long flowing hair. Of course it's mostly the females who keep their hair long while males usually keep theirs short, but I've seen pictures of some men who grow their hair long and flowing as well. I go on further to suggest this also explains the presence of blacks with long hair in the Mediterranean basin as depicted in Minoan frescoes and in Egyptian paintings of Keftiu and maybe even some Sea Peoples, but that's another topic altogether! Again, my point goes back to what Zarahan has stated-- we should stop thinking that such hair forms like facial features are due to a non-African or Eurasian influence and acknowledge that such is very much part of indigenous African diversity. Getting back to Nubians, I notice that wavy or long hair is also not an uncommon trait among them. How prevalent it was in ancient times is another matter, but I do believe if a change in hair form occurred in Nubian populations it could have to do with immigrations of people from the Sahara, perhaps peoples like the Blemyes, Noba, and others.
Sudanese with straighter hair:
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:: ^ And who in here besides Clyde Winters thinks Indians and Africans are the same 'race'?? In fact the rest of us don't even ascribe to 'race' as it doesn't really exist anyway!!
this statement is hypocritical it amounts to this:
"race doesn't exist, what idiot would think Africans and Indians were of the same race??? "
Djehuti Fail #6
First of all, I put race in quotes to show that it is a loose and invalid term. Second, my question asked who thought that way besides Clyde since Clyde obviously believes in 'race' and so does the castrated. I don't, so how is that hypocritical??! You obviously have poor reading comprehension.
Lyinass B|TCH Fail #6000
BTW, YOU are also a troll not much better than castrated with your passive-aggressive tactics, so YOU need to get the hell out of this thread as well! Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Before we can determine whether or not wholly indigenous Africans can have less than tightly curled hair, we first need to figure out exactly why we have variation in human hair texture to begin with. Some might argue that straighter hair in modern humans is a derived trait characteristic of cold-adapted populations, but that doesn't explain why Australian aborigines, who are otherwise perfectly tropically adapted, have wavy rather than woolly hair (especially since they are sandwiched between woolly-haired populations in New Guinea and Tasmania). How can we determine whether less woolly hair in Africans is a product of admixture with cold-adapted people when we don't even know why most Africans have woolly hair in the first place?
BTW, hair curvature is only one variable of hair morphology; it could very well be that other aspects of Egypto-Nubian hair morphology are more in line with other Africans.
You must not forget that looser or relatively straighter hair does not mean thin or not wooly. Even African hair that is wavy or loose is still thick and 'wooly' to the touch compared to the smoother silky hair of Eurasians. This fact along with other tropical features also found among these populations and NO cold adapted traits at all suggest that such hair form are indeed indigenous and has nothing to do with influence from cold adapted populations.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
Kanuri have Toubou admixture, hence their occasional Caucasoid traits (Ferris, 1968).
Toubou show strong Caucasoid morphology, since they have mixed with Berbers for a long time.
Taubou Man (clearly visible Berber admixture) -
Afrocentrics are obsessed with Caucasoid traits yet are delusional and claim them as their own.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Now, back to ignoring the castrated fool...
Welcome back Swenet! I was about to say what Truthcentric and Zarahan have already pointed out that Strouhal found the average indices of predynastic Egyptian hair to be well within the average range of so-called "negroes". As for the wavy texture of the hair, I find it funny that you like Keita point to more distant African groups having such hair like Somalis and other Horn Africans and even Kanuri and Fulani. The Kanuri are found primarily in Chad, while the Fulani are found throughout the Sahel of West Africa. We know the Euronuts are obsessed with the false notion that Horn Africans and Fulani are "caucasian" admixed but what about the Kanuri?? I don't think most Euronuts have even heard of them let alone call them cockasian mixed. Yet the Kanuri look no different from other peoples in Chad despite their hair texture. And what of the Bilma of Uganda whom Ausar first mentioned. Uganda is all the way in central Africa and these people look stereotypically Bantu except their wavy hair texture! There is obviously no denying the inherent diversity of Africa.
While people point to more distant populations what about closer ones nearby such as the Nilo-Saharan speaking Teda people of southeast Libya, or the Siwa Berbers who despite their black appearance still have long wavy hair? In fact the earliest known Libyans, the Tehenu, were depicted by the Egyptians as having long wavy hair despite their African features and dark complexions no different from Egyptians.
Tehenu prisoner
In fact, judging by the incredibly high frequencies in that region I'd say the Sahara seems to be the very source of the long wavy texture among Egyptians and perhaps Nubians. I've long noticed that so many peoples in and around the Sahara (not just Berber speakers) despite their obvious black appearance have long flowing hair. Of course it's mostly the females who keep their hair long while males usually keep theirs short, but I've seen pictures of some men who grow their hair long and flowing as well. I go on further to suggest this also explains the presence of blacks with long hair in the Mediterranean basin as depicted in Minoan frescoes and in Egyptian paintings of Keftiu and maybe even some Sea Peoples, but that's another topic altogether! Again, my point goes back to what Zarahan has stated-- we should stop thinking that such hair forms like facial features are due to a non-African or Eurasian influence and acknowledge that such is very much part of indigenous African diversity. Getting back to Nubians, I notice that wavy or long hair is also not an uncommon trait among them. How prevalent it was in ancient times is another matter, but I do believe if a change in hair form occurred in Nubian populations it could have to do with immigrations of people from the Sahara, perhaps peoples like the Blemyes, Noba, and others.
Sudanese with straighter hair:
It may be more than a coincidence that the Sahara has a similar climate to much of Australia where the native inhabitants also have wavy hair despite being tropically adapted. Maybe living in an arid environment would for some reason select for less tightly curled hair?
That said, while I'm inclined to agree with you that wavy hair is indigenous to the Sahara, Euronuts will claim that the Saharan region would be an admixture zone between "true" black people and "Caucasoids" living on the Mediterranean coastline and therefore that the wavy-haired black peoples you named are not wholly African. Alternatively, some people might agree that the wavy-haired Saharans ARE more or less pure Africans but still maintain that they should be considered distinct from sub-Saharan peoples.
You wouldn't happen to have photos showing the Saharan groups you named, would you?
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
the chart doesn't only describe wavy hair it also distinguishes wavy hair from straight hair.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:: ^ And who in here besides Clyde Winters thinks Indians and Africans are the same 'race'?? In fact the rest of us don't even ascribe to 'race' as it doesn't really exist anyway!!
this statement is hypocritical it amounts to this:
"race doesn't exist, what idiot would think Africans and Indians were of the same race??? "
Djehuti Fail #6
First of all, I put race in quotes to show that it is a loose and invalid term. Second, my question asked who thought that way besides Clyde since Clyde obviously believes in 'race' and so does the castrated. I don't, so how is that hypocritical??! You obviously have poor reading comprehension.
Lyinass B|TCH Fail #6000
BTW, YOU are also a troll not much better than castrated with your passive-aggressive tactics, so YOU need to get the hell out of this thread as well!
You put race in quotes and then proceeded to convey the idea that Africans and Indians couldn't possibly be of the same race, that only Clyde could think such a thing. That makes no sense, you messed up.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Am J Phys Anthropol. 1978 Aug;49(2):277-82. Analysis of hair samples of mummies from Semma South (Sudanese Nubia).
Abstract Hair samples from 76 burials at Semna South (Sudanese Nubia) were examined using a variety of techniques. Electrophoresis and fluorescence microscopy indicated some oxidation of the cuticule and keratin protein had taken place. However, the cuticular structure and the lack of fluorescence of the cortex indicate that the low humidity and non-alkaline conditions preserved the physical and chemical properties of the hair well. Pigmentation, even allowing for oxidation of melanin, showed a higher proportion of lighter samples than is currently associated with the Nubian area. Hair form analysis showed medium diameter and scale count; the curling variables were intermediate between European and African samples. There was a high ratio of maximum to minimum curvature (a measure of irregularity), approached only by Melanesian samples. Meroitic and X-group burial types were not statistically significantly different (largely due to sample sizes), but the X-group, especially males, showed more African elements than the Meroitic in the curling variables. Principal components analysis showed the Semna sample to be significantly different from seven populations examined earlier.
the curling variables were intermediate between European and African samples.
This shows that if the Egyptians were form the South, that the South may have had people who were intermediate between Eurasian and African.
This is a possibility with evidence. The study in the OT supports this further. It list not only curly hair (of an intermediate type) and labels some samples curly as here but also lists wavy and straight, all separate categories.
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
the curling variables were intermediate between European and African samples.
This shows that if the Egyptians were form the South, that the South may have had people who were intermediate between Eurasian and African.
Dubious. "Intermediate" does not mean "Racially" mixed. It simply means that the hair pattern of the native peoples varied between 2 defined points. Your attempt to project some sort of "race" categorization based on hair fails dismally. Tropical Africans are the most diverse people in the world. And "gene flow" does not necessarily mean anything from outside Africa. The Horn, the Sudan, the Sahara, etc are all sources of documented "gene flow" from WITHIN Africa.
These data plots however do not necessarily indicate race admixture or percentages, or the presence of European migrants or colonists (see Keita 2005 below), but rather a data pattern of variation in how hair curls, and native African diversity which cases substantial overlap with non-African groups. This is a routine occurrence within human groups.
Africa has the highest phenotypic variation, just as it has the highest geentic variation- accommodating a wide range of features for its peoples without the need for any "race mix: Relethford (2001) shows that ".. methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies." (Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5, October 2001, pp. 629-636) Hanihara 2003 notes that [significant] "..intraregional diversity are present in Subsaharan Africans.." While ancient Egypt had gene flow in various eras, hair variations easily fall under this pattern of built-in, indigenous diversity, as well as the above noted cultural practice of using wigs with hair from different places obtained through trade.
Among Europeans for example, some people have curlier hair and some have straighter hair than others. Various peoples of East and West Africa also have narrow noses, which are different from other peoples elsewhere in Africa, nevertheless they still remain Africans. DNA studies also note greater variation within selected populations that without. Since Africa has the highest genetic diversity in the world, such routine variation in characteristics such as hair need not indicate any racial percentage or admixture, but simply part of the built-in genetic diversity of the ancient peoples on the continent. Indeed, the Semna study author notes that blondism, especially in young children, is common in many dark-haired populations (e.g., Australian, Melanesian), and is still found in some Nubian villages. As regards hair color variation, reddish type hair is associated with the presence of pheomelanin, which can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well. See "Rameses" below. Albinism is another source of red hair.
Dubious attempts at 'racial analysis' using Nubian hair and crania. Assorted supporters of the stereotypical Aryan 'race' model attempt to use hair to argue for a predominantly 'white' Nubia. But as noted above, such attempts are dubious given built-in African genetic diversity. Often 'racial' hair claims attempt to link on with cranial studies purporting to match ancient Nubians with Swedes, Frenchmen, etc. But such claims are also dubious. In a detailed analysis of the Fordisc computer program used to put forward such claims, Williams, Armelagos, et al. (2005) found that the program created ludicrous "matches" between the ancient Nubian crania and peoples from Hungary, Japan, Easter Island and a host of others in far-flung regions! Their conclusion was that the diversity of human populations in the databank explained such wide ranging matches. Such objective mainstream analyses debunk obsolete and improbable claims of 'racial' migrations of alleged Frenchman, Hungarians, or other whites into ancient Nubia, or equally improbable racial 'percentages' supposedly quantifying such claims. (Frank l'engle Williams, Robert L. Belcher, and George J . Armelagos, "Forensic Misclassification of Ancient Nubian Crania: Implications for Assumptions about Human Variation," Current Anthropology, volume 46 (2005), pages 340-346)
---------------------------------------------
The "African climate" incorporates diverse temperature, humidity, atmospheric pressure, wind, rainfall, atmospheric particle count and other meteorological elements in a wide range of environments -- from deserts, to high altitude snowy zones, to jungle, to savannah, to mixed woodlands, to higher altitude cloud forest, and all that is WITHIN the TROPICAL zone of Africa.
And just as tropical African environments are diverse, so are tropical African peoples as credible scientists note time and time again. QUOTES:
Most phenotypic variation "Both methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies." --- Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5, October 2001, pp. 629-636)
Most genetic variation "Africa contains tremendous cultural, linguistic and genetic diversity, and has more than 2,000 distinct ethnic groups and languages.. Studies using mitochondrial (mt)DNA and nuclear DNA markers consistently indicate that Africa is the most genetically diverse region of the world." ---Tishkoff SA, Williams SM., Genetic analysis of African populations: human evolution and complex disease. Nature Reviews Genetics. 2002 Aug (8):611-21.)
Most skin color variation "Previous studies of genetic and craniometric traits have found higher levels of within-population diversity in sub-Saharan Africa compared to other geographic regions. This study examines regional differences in within-population diversity of human skin color. Published data on skin reflectance were collected for 98 male samples from eight geographic regions: sub-Saharan Africa, North Africa, Europe, West Asia, Southwest Asia, South Asia, Australasia, and the New World. Regional differences in local within-population diversity were examined using two measures of variability: the sample variance and the sample coefficient of variation. For both measures, the average level of within-population diversity is higher in sub-Saharan Africa than in other geographic regions. This difference persists even after adjusting for a correlation between within-population diversity and distance from the equator. Though affected by natural selection, skin color variation shows the same pattern of higher African diversity as found with other traits."
-- Relethford JH.(2000). Human skin color diversity is highest in sub-Saharan African populations. Hum Biol. 2000 Oct;72(5):773-80.)
a tropical phenotype needing diverse study...
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Zarahan, just who is that chick you keep posting?? You keep using her as an example of tropical adaptation so is she from Africa or indigenous to some other tropical area??
quote:Originally posted by castrated: Kanuri have Toubou admixture, hence their occasional Caucasoid traits (Ferris, 1968).
Toubou show strong Caucasoid morphology, since they have mixed with Berbers for a long time.
Taubou Man (clearly visible Berber admixture) -
Afrocentrics are obsessed with Caucasoid traits yet are delusional and claim them as their own.
The only one obsessed with cacasoid traits are idiots like YOU, yet you are too stupid and delusional to realize that such an entity as "cacasoid" does not really exist! Do you know how stupid your statement sounds? You say the only reason for the Kanuri's traits are due to admixture from the Tubu yet the only reason for the Tubu's traits are admixture from another people! LOL As for the Berbers, these too are predominantly black in appearance yet another troll, Malcontent claims it is because of admixture from 'negro slaves'! Also if such traits are "cacasoid" then as others have explained in this thread, where are all the other cacasoid traits like light skin color and cold adapted limb proportions??
You like the malcontent are as deranged as you are delusional.
quote:Originally posted by the lyinassfool: You put race in quotes and then proceeded to convey the idea that Africans and Indians couldn't possibly be of the same race, that only Clyde could think such a thing. That makes no sense, you messed up.
By traditional definitions of "race", one means same population or peoples of common genetic descent. We know that Indians as Eurasians are very much diverged from Africans as much as other Asians which proves the point.
To someone with basic intelligence it makes perfect sense. So no I didn't mess up unlike YOUR dumbass who messed up in dozens of threads! LOL Again, don't try to nitpick my statements in a pathetic attempt to point our any mistakes of mine your twisted mind perceives but rather worry about your own blatantly obvious mistakes which you make over and over again despite our corrections, worm!
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Now, back to ignoring the castrated fool...
Welcome back Swenet! I was about to say what Truthcentric and Zarahan have already pointed out that Strouhal found the average indices of predynastic Egyptian hair to be well within the average range of so-called "negroes". As for the wavy texture of the hair, I find it funny that you like Keita point to more distant African groups having such hair like Somalis and other Horn Africans and even Kanuri and Fulani. The Kanuri are found primarily in Chad, while the Fulani are found throughout the Sahel of West Africa. We know the Euronuts are obsessed with the false notion that Horn Africans and Fulani are "caucasian" admixed but what about the Kanuri?? I don't think most Euronuts have even heard of them let alone call them cockasian mixed. Yet the Kanuri look no different from other peoples in Chad despite their hair texture. And what of the Bilma of Uganda whom Ausar first mentioned. Uganda is all the way in central Africa and these people look stereotypically Bantu except their wavy hair texture! There is obviously no denying the inherent diversity of Africa.
While people point to more distant populations what about closer ones nearby such as the Nilo-Saharan speaking Teda people of southeast Libya, or the Siwa Berbers who despite their black appearance still have long wavy hair? In fact the earliest known Libyans, the Tehenu, were depicted by the Egyptians as having long wavy hair despite their African features and dark complexions no different from Egyptians.
Tehenu prisoner
In fact, judging by the incredibly high frequencies in that region I'd say the Sahara seems to be the very source of the long wavy texture among Egyptians and perhaps Nubians. I've long noticed that so many peoples in and around the Sahara (not just Berber speakers) despite their obvious black appearance have long flowing hair. Of course it's mostly the females who keep their hair long while males usually keep theirs short, but I've seen pictures of some men who grow their hair long and flowing as well. I go on further to suggest this also explains the presence of blacks with long hair in the Mediterranean basin as depicted in Minoan frescoes and in Egyptian paintings of Keftiu and maybe even some Sea Peoples, but that's another topic altogether! Again, my point goes back to what Zarahan has stated-- we should stop thinking that such hair forms like facial features are due to a non-African or Eurasian influence and acknowledge that such is very much part of indigenous African diversity. Getting back to Nubians, I notice that wavy or long hair is also not an uncommon trait among them. How prevalent it was in ancient times is another matter, but I do believe if a change in hair form occurred in Nubian populations it could have to do with immigrations of people from the Sahara, perhaps peoples like the Blemyes, Noba, and others.
Sudanese with straighter hair:
Whatup Djehuty, thanks. As far as I know, Strouhal did not give a mean for the cross sections he obtained, so there is no way of telling whether it falls in the range of stereotyped African hair. Strouhal doesn't mention how many of the 7 hairs were curly, and how many were wavy, but, but judging by the fact that stereotyped African populations have transverse indices between 10-60%, it seems reasonable that from Strouhals microsopically analysed hairs (again, 7 strands), the curly hairs account for most of the indices that are in his range of 35-65%, and that the wavy hairs (assuming there were more wavy strands than one) account for the ones that scored around 65%.
If we then look at how large the curly componant is, of the total set of hairs, it only amounts to 6/49=12%. Using this line of thinking, then, it seems that 88% of Strouhals Badarian hair has a cross section index of 65% and higher, and falls outside of the range reported for most tropical Africans, but still within the limits of Tropical Africans like Somali's and, as this thread demonstrates, that of contemporary Northern Sudanese.
quote:Yet the Kanuri look no different from other peoples in Chad despite their hair texture.
Exactly what I'm saying. I have trouble understanding why Truthcentric is impressed by the false notion that this information can be used to suggest that the Nubians with straight and wavy hair were mulattoes, or that proponants that do, are worth worrying about. North Africans already occupy a mulatto position, cranio-facially. If those Nubians were mulattoes, we'd expect them to plot among the E-Series and Maghrebian series, and they obviously don't.
To Truth centric: Proto berbers arise from the same source as the Nubians discussed here, why did their transformation to mulattoes bring about a change in their cranio-facial structure and skin color, but not in straight haired Ancient Northern Sudanese?
Their hairs may be wavy and straight for the most part, but their facial complex evinces local evolution. I don't see how someone can sloppily throw that fact out of the window, or act like it isn't there, simply because of this new find. Remember Keita's seriation of population along the x axis of his cranial plot? He said all cranial series, from the Romano-british to the Gabonese series (and everything in between), are seriated in a manner that agrees roughly with their geographical lattitude. This obviously means that Naqada and Kerma, who were a part of that study, look cranially like what is predicted from their lattitute, and hence, their physique cannot be explained by admixture:
quote:A study of Howells’ (1973) results by Guglielmino- Matessi et al. (1979) demonstrates significant climatic (mainly temperature) correlations with the variables strongly associated with the first discriminant function. These variables overlap with the important ones observed here. Inspection of Howells’ plot of discriminant Function I versus I1 reveals a seriation of groups along I that corresponds to that obtained here: geographical groups from cold to tropical areas, with the second function, as in this study, separating the groups within these broad regions. The “E” series locates in an intermediate position to tropical African and European series.
An Analysis of Crania From Tell-Duweir Using Multiple Discriminant Functions -S.O.Y. KEITA
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djhoopti:
the source of this picture is Mike111, "real"history.com
in the section entitled "The True Negro"
the original source is not given. Is the man purely of African descent, we don't know Is his hair in it's natural state? We don't know Is there a tribe of people who look like him and have this hair? No
this one photo is not solid evidence. Also Sudan is about 40% Arab, 2% other foreigners
.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
^"Arab" is not a race, its a language and W.Asia is not 'pure' either.
LMAO @ lioness trying to sell her "intermediate" productions.
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: the curling variables were intermediate between European and African samples.
This shows that if the Egyptians were form the South, that the South may have had people who were intermediate between Eurasian and African.
Dubious. "Intermediate" does not mean "Racially" mixed. It simply means that the hair pattern of the native peoples varied between 2 defined points. Your attempt to project some sort of "race" categorization based on hair fails dismally. Tropical Africans are the most diverse people in the world. And "gene flow" does not necessarily mean anything from outside Africa. The Horn, the Sudan, the Sahara, etc are all sources of documented "gene flow" from WITHIN Africa.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Zarahan, just who is that chick you keep posting?? You keep using her as an example of tropical adaptation so is she from Africa or indigenous to some other tropical area??
^^A Black American as far as I know- Sasha Shelton.
Their hairs may be wavy and straight for the most part, but their facial complex evinces local evolution.
^Fair enough. Would the hair also be characterized as a local evolution?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: It may be more than a coincidence that the Sahara has a similar climate to much of Australia where the native inhabitants also have wavy hair despite being tropically adapted. Maybe living in an arid environment would for some reason select for less tightly curled hair?
That is a hypothesis that I've had for a while as well-- that extremely arid environments correlate with loose wavy hair. In fact not only is wavy hair found among Saharans but like the Australian aborigines, light colored hair including slight blondism can be found as a juvenile trait among children as well, though not as prominent (brightly colored) as Aussie aboriginal children.
quote:That said, while I'm inclined to agree with you that wavy hair is indigenous to the Sahara, Euronuts will claim that the Saharan region would be an admixture zone between "true" black people and "Caucasoids" living on the Mediterranean coastline and therefore that the wavy-haired black peoples you named are not wholly African. Alternatively, some people might agree that the wavy-haired Saharans ARE more or less pure Africans but still maintain that they should be considered distinct from sub-Saharan peoples.
Who gives a sh|t what the Euronuts claim or think?! I don't know about you, but I certainly dont! As for Saharans being distinct from sub-Saharans, how so??! We already know that so-called sub-Saharan populations are continuous with those of the Sahara and even the Mediterranean coasts! I just explained how wavy hair is found as far south as Uganda not to mention the Horn and among Sahelians.
quote:You wouldn't happen to have photos showing the Saharan groups you named, would you?
Well we've already seen photos of Siwan people. The girls usually have their hairs braided.
The Teda people are the same as the Tubu. I couldn't find any pictures of Tubu/Teda with long hair at least girls and women who don't have their hair covered but here are couple pics of them.
But here is one picture of an Egyptian man from Farafra oasis in the western desrert. You may remember him as the poster 'Maahes' from years back who was making ancient Egyptian movie 'Goddess of the Sun' featuring Halle Berry as Nefertiti.
Here is a Malian girl
Berber
You get the point.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Whatup Djehuty, thanks. As far as I know, Strouhal did not give a mean for the cross sections he obtained, so there is no way of telling whether it falls in the range of stereotyped African hair. Strouhal doesn't mention how many of the 7 hairs were curly, and how many were wavy, but, but judging by the fact that stereotyped African populations have transverse indices between 10-60%, it seems reasonable that from Strouhals microsopically analysed hairs (again, 7 strands), the curly hairs account for most of the indices that are in his range of 35-65%, and that the wavy hairs (assuming there were more wavy strands than one) account for the ones that scored around 65%.
If we then look at how large the curly componant is, of the total set of hairs, it only amounts to 6/49=12%. Using this line of thinking, then, it seems that 88% of Strouhals Badarian hair has a cross section index of 65% and higher, and falls outside of the range reported for most tropical Africans, but still within the limits of Tropical Africans like Somali's and, as this thread demonstrates, that of contemporary Northern Sudanese.
I take it you've probably read this article about Egyptian hair from Myra's site here. According to the authors, Strouhal's sample produced indices ranging from 35 to 65. Then there were other studies from other experts from samples of the 12th and 18th and 18-25th dynasties. They all produced an average well within the African range.
quote:"Yet the Kanuri look no different from other peoples in Chad despite their hair texture."
Exactly what I'm saying. I have trouble understanding why Truthcentric is impressed by the false notion that this information can be used to suggest that the Nubians with straight and wavy hair were mulattoes, or that proponents that do, are worth worrying about. North Africans already occupy a mulatto position, cranio-facially. If those Nubians were mulattoes, we'd expect them to plot among the E-Series and Maghrebian series, and they obviously don't.
Agreed, and let's not forget about the Bilma of Uganda and perhaps other people in that region who look stereotypically 'Bantu' yet still have wavy hair! This along with wavy hair being found amongst black aboriginals in Eurasia make it quite clear that such a trait is very ancient and has absolutely nothing to do with cold adaptation!
quote:To Truth centric: Proto berbers arise from the same source as the Nubians discussed here, why did their transformation to mulattoes bring about a change in their cranio-facial structure and skin color, but not in straight haired Ancient Northern Sudanese?
Their hairs may be wavy and straight for the most part, but their facial complex evinces local evolution. I don't see how someone can sloppily throw that fact out of the window, or act like it isn't there, simply because of this new find. Remember Keita's seriation of population along the x axis of his cranial plot? He said all cranial series, from the Romano-british to the Gabonese series (and everything in between), are seriated in a manner that agrees roughly with their geographical latitude. This obviously means that Naqada and Kerma, who were a part of that study, look cranially like what is predicted from their latitute, and hence, their physique cannot be explained by admixture:
A study of Howells’ (1973) results by Guglielmino-Matessi et al. (1979) demonstrates significant climatic (mainly temperature) correlations with the variables strongly associated with the first discriminant function.These variables overlap with the important ones observed here. Inspection of Howells’ plot of discriminant Function I versus I1 reveals a seriation of groups along I that corresponds to that obtained here: geographical groups from cold to tropical areas, with the second function, as in this study, separating the groups within these broad regions. The “E” series locates in an intermediate position to tropical African and European series. An Analysis of Crania From Tell-Duweir Using Multiple Discriminant Functions -S.O.Y. KEITA
Yes it makes perfect sense from a evolutionary biological point.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass: the source of this picture is Mike111, "real"history.com
in the section entitled "The True Negro"
the original source is not given. Is the man purely of African descent, we don't know. Is his hair in it's natural state? We don't know. Is there a tribe of people who look like him and have this hair? No
this one photo is not solid evidence. Also Sudan is about 40% Arab, 2% other foreigners
.
Actually that picture was originally presented to this forum by KING in one of his African people picture spam threads on Sudan.
We don't know if the man is purely African though the same can be said about a Sudanese or any other African whose hair is not loose but tight and kinky, in fact many Arabic speaking tribes actually have kinky hair!! Again, this all goes back to the point that such hair texture has NOTHING to do with foreign ancestry as such hair is found among rural inland peoples of the Horn as well as the Bilma of Uganda! Also by Sudan being 40% Arab, I take it you mean ethnically which says nothing about actual ancestry, lying worm!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: "Zarahan, just who is that chick you keep posting?? You keep using her as an example of tropical adaptation so is she from Africa or indigenous to some other tropical area??"
^^A Black American as far as I know- Sasha Shelton.
Okay. I'll be sure to look her up. Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Again, this all goes back to the point that such hair texture has NOTHING to do with foreign ancestry as such hair is found among rural inland peoples of the Horn as well as the Bilma of Uganda! Also by Sudan being 40% Arab, I take it you mean ethnically which says nothing about actual ancestry,queen[/QB]
I wonder if you would endorse the statement:
"hair type has nothing to do with climate"
I don't expect an answer. You will probably wait to see what somebody else says and then twirl your baton
Genetic heterogeneity among the Negroid and Arab tribes of the Sudan.
Tay JS, Saha N.
Department of Paediatrics, Faculty of Medicine, National University of Singapore.
Genetic distance analysis was carried out among seven tribes of the Sudan comprising three Negroid (Nuba, Fur, and Nilotes) and four Arab tribes (Beja, Gaalin, Hawazma, and Messeria) on the basis of six polymorphic loci (ABO and Rhesus blood groups; haemoglobin and red cell glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase; serum haptoglobin and transferrin polymorphisms) controlling 21 alleles and compared with the Arab and Negroid populations in neighbouring countries. The Nuba and Nilotes have been found to have Negroid genetic characteristics, while the Fur are intermediate between the Arabs and Negroids. The Beja and Gaalin tribes have more pronounced Arab genetic characteristics than the Hawazma and Messeria, who have a great deal of Negroid admixture.
PMID: 3414791 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
____________________________________________________ Some blood genetic markers of the Nuba and Hawazma tribes of western Sudan.
Bayoumi RA, Saha N.
Two hundred eighty subjects comprising 112 Nuba and 168 Hawazma of the Sudan were tested for the distribution of hemoglobins, eight red cell enzymes, and four serum proteins. The Nuba, the indigenous negroid tribe, had no HbS, HbO-Arab, or GdB(Khartoum) compared to the Hawazma tribe of Negro-Arab descent. The gene frequencies of the above polymorphic systems in the latter were as follows: HbS, 0.13; HbO-Arab, 0.01; GdB(Khartoum), 0.03. The frequency of GdA was higher in the Hawazma than in the Nuba. A high frequency of glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase (G6PD) deficiency and HpO was present in both the tribes. Essentially similar gene frequencies of Hp1, TfD, PGDC, pC, and PGM1 were observed in both Nuba and Hawazma. The average heterozygosity at five polymorphic loci was the same (0.23) in both the tribes. The above results agree with the social practice whereby people of mixed Hawazma and Nuba descent are considered members of the Hawazma tribe and confirm that racial admixture between the two groups can be seen as a process of gene flow from the Nuba to the Hawazma, even though the Nuba are the indigenous group, while the Hawazma are the new settlers.
PMID: 3475983 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
_____________________________________________________ The inter- and intra-tribal distribution of red cell G6PD phenotypes in Sudan.
Saha N, Samuel AP, Omer A, Hoffbrand AV.
1,416 males and 564 female subjects from four Negroid and five Arab tribes and a group of mixed tribes of the Sudan were investigated for the phenotypic distribution of red cell glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase by starch gel electrophoresis. In general, the tribes of Negroid origin had higher frequency of GdA compared to the tribes of Arab ancestry. However, the Nilotes showed a lower frequency of GdA allele and the Mahass tribe claiming an Arab origin had a higher frequency of GdA. The immigrant groups from the neighbouring African countries also had a higher frequency of GdA. GdB (Khartoum) was present in low frequencies in both the Arab and Negroid tribes. A great deal of intratribal variation in the phenotypic distribution of G6PD was observed in the Nuba and Gaali tribes from different localities.
Some blood genetic characteristics of several Sudanese tribes.
Saha N, el Seikh FS.
The distribution of ABO and Rhesus blood groups, serum haptoglobin, and transferrin; red cell glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase and acid phosphatase; and hemoglobin was studied among the two aboriginal negroid tribes (Nuba and Fur); the Nilotic tribe; five tribes of Arab ancestory; and a mixed group of other minor tribes of Arab origin. The Nilotic and Nuba tribes were genetically quite distinct from the rest, with lower R1, R2, and r in the Rhesus system and low HbS and Gd-. The Arab tribes had a genetic structure which was intermediate between that of the original negroid population of the Sudan and the Arabs to the north. However, some of the Arab tribes had special genetical characteristics, e.g., Messeria had high TfD1; both Messeria and Hawazma had high HbS and Gd-, while GdA was higher only in the Hawazma. The Gaalin had very low HbS, Ro, GdA, and Gd-, suggestive of less negroid admixture compared to Messeria and Hawazma. The Fur, though an aboriginal negroid tribe, had genetic characteristics similar to Arabs.
PMID: 3113266 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:^Fair enough. Would the hair also be characterized as a local evolution?
Already made my views widely known on that point. This exchange, among others, answers your question:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: you do realize the Euronuts will use the wavy-haired Nubians as proof that Nubians were mulattoes rather than actually Black, don't you?
^Brace makes the following point:
quote: An earlier generation of anthropologists tried to explain face form in the Horn of Africa as the result of admixture from hypothetical “wandering Caucasoids,” (Adams, 1967, 1979; MacGaffey, 1966; Seligman, 1913, 1915, 19341, but that explanation founders on the paradox of why that supposedly potent “Caucasoid” people contributed a dominant quantity of genes for nose and face form but none for skin color or limb proportions.
To make it apply to our situation, change the words: ''genes for nose and face'', to ''genes for straighter hair'', so the sentence reads:
but that explanation founders on the paradox of why that supposedly potent “Caucasoid” people contributed a dominant quantity of genes for hair form but none for skin color or limb proportions
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:I take it you've probably read this article about Egyptian hair from Myra's site here. According to the authors, Strouhal's sample produced indices ranging from 35 to 65.
Reread my post. The writers of that article are being vague, and seem to be lacking in the math department. What the authors don't say, is that only 7/49=12% of the macroscopically analysed hairs were microscopically studied. The former analysis (macroscopic) is how Strouhal catagorized the strands in wavy, curly and straight catagories, the latter analysis (microscopic) is how he obtained his indices.
Of the total of 49 hair strands, only the so-called ''racially mixed'', strands were sent to be analysed. This means the straight hairs, and the numerically dominant wavy hairs, are not proportionally represented in that range.
Additionally, I have trouble understanding what type of math led the author to make an average out of a range that is described as ''35-65''.
Last time I checked, to produce an average, one needs to know all the individual scores, and that is precisely what Strouhal didn't report. With the Badarian average not bringing down the weight that is raised by 2 of the total 4 studies that report a wavy average (around 65%), but actually contributing to it, the overal average of 60% they report becomes questionable.
To calculate the average Egyptian index from those four papers, one cannot sloppily re-average the four averages. To produce an acceptable number, all indices of all four papers, must be added and divided by the total number of strands. Recalculation of the indices of the four papers is made impossible by the undisclosed indices, and unrepresentativeness of at least one paper (Strouhal's), but possibly others as well (not sure if the Italian paper they report is a different version than the one uploaded by Truthcentric, or a different paper altogether, so I'm restricting my comments to ''one''), so like I said, their work is questionable.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
^^^^ see if you can send some emails to researchers for info
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^I'm not in it to know all the indices of each specific hair strand, I could care less. The only thing I wanted to demonstrate with this thread is that groups directly below the 1st cataract and Egyptians cluster on all scientifically discernable ways, and that wavy and straight haired Egyptians aren't an exception, or a marker of admixture that separates Egyptians from their direct neighbors to the south, as Mathilda tried to insinuate with this article:
The more appropriate contemporary sister populations can - and should - be used as a comparative population
Nobody has to buy this bullshit either:
quote:The reference to certain pharaohs resembling the Kushite Beja comes from the X-Ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies, by Wente et al (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980). This observation came from a study of the late Dynasty XVII royal mummies, particularly Seqenenre Ta'aa's mummy. If you look at this mummy, he has tightly curled hair, and along with the other royals of late Dynasty XVIII-Early Dynasty XVIII, they show marked prognatism in the upper jaw, with many exhibiting a bad case of "buck teeth". This, plus the occurence of Beja names in the Dynasty XVII tombs at El-Qab, led the authors to conclude that there may have been links between the Medja mercenaries so common in the armies of this period, and the royals in this family. However, after Amenhotep I, the male line died out, and Thutmose I brought new blood into the old royal line. So, the comment about the resemblance of the royals to the Medja applies only to the late Dynasty XVII and early Dynasty XVIII rulers starting with Tety-sheri and Senakhtenre of Dynasty XVII.
So, this is not a false story, but is based upopn the observation and study of the mummies of this group of royals.
Most sincerely,
Frank J. Yurco University of Chicago
^Here Yurco attempts to associate tightly curled hair (among other things) as a marker that can be used consistently to distinquish between Nubians and Egyptians.
Or this:
quote:“The physical features and hair of his properly mummified body make it certain that Maiherpri was of Nubian origin. He is the only known Nubian to be buried in this exclusive royal cemetery, and his position was of a valued servant…burial items included… a copy of the Book of the Dead in which he appears as the dark-skinned deceased.” (“Historical Dictionary Of Ancient And Medieval Nubia" Richard Lobban 2004)
Nor does anyone have to put up with this:
quote:“Hair was predominately used to construct the wigs and false braids which served as items of daily and funerary attire throughout the Pharaonic period (Fletcher 1995). The hair employed for this purpose was specifically human hair, and in almost every case can be identified as cynotrichous (Caucasian) rather than heliotrichous (Negroid) (Hrdy 1978; Titlbachova and Titlbach 1977; Brunton 1937; el-Tatrawi 1935).” (“Ancient Egyptian Materials and Technology" Paul Nicholson, Ian Shaw 2000)
Note that cynotrichous means wavy, not straight, and that it agrees with the hair form that seems to have been predominant among Egyptians and Northern Sudanese. The wigs should be considered as made out of indigenous hair first, before attempts are made to look outside of the Nile Valley.
It surprises me that ES veterans like Djehuty and Zaharan haven't embraced the data posted here with the same enthousiasm as me, and instead, actually partake in perpetuating the myth that is subscribed to by the likes of Yurco, that holds that Nile Valley populations (ought to) have the same hair as stereotyped Africans, when they obviously don't.
The bar should be raised; Somali's and Ethiopians aren't standalone exceptions, and the scientifically advocated range of African cross section indices should be raised from 0 - 60% to at least 65% (as population averages), and including with it wavy and occasional straight hair.
If people want to use hair to demonstrate Eurasian diffusion into Africa, they'll have to reinforce their hair data with osteological data a convincing case.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
^^^^ I agree man. This proves that the Egyptians and Nubians were not a "Black/White" or Mixed/Pure Black population as some try to claim.
Wavy and straight hair were obviously common among Nubians and Southern Nile Valley populations.
Will def. add this to my blog..
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass: I wonder if you would endorse the statement:
"hair type has nothing to do with climate"
I don't expect an answer. You will probably wait to see what somebody else says and then twirl your baton
You assume wrong as usual, lying worm. How many times must I tell you just because I agree with others does not make me a cheerleader, and you obviously have bad comprehensions since I specifically stated hair type does correlate with climate!
quote: Genetic heterogeneity among the Negroid and Arab tribes of the Sudan.
Tay JS, Saha N.
Department of Paediatrics, Faculty of Medicine, National University of Singapore.
Genetic distance analysis was carried out among seven tribes of the Sudan comprising three Negroid (Nuba, Fur, and Nilotes) and four Arab tribes (Beja, Gaalin, Hawazma, and Messeria) on the basis of six polymorphic loci (ABO and Rhesus blood groups; haemoglobin and red cell glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase; serum haptoglobin and transferrin polymorphisms) controlling 21 alleles and compared with the Arab and Negroid populations in neighbouring countries. The Nuba and Nilotes have been found to have Negroid genetic characteristics, while the Fur are intermediate between the Arabs and Negroids. The Beja and Gaalin tribes have more pronounced Arab genetic characteristics than the Hawazma and Messeria, who have a great deal of Negroid admixture.
PMID: 3414791 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
____________________________________________________ Some blood genetic markers of the Nuba and Hawazma tribes of western Sudan.
Bayoumi RA, Saha N.
Two hundred eighty subjects comprising 112 Nuba and 168 Hawazma of the Sudan were tested for the distribution of hemoglobins, eight red cell enzymes, and four serum proteins. The Nuba, the indigenous negroid tribe, had no HbS, HbO-Arab, or GdB(Khartoum) compared to the Hawazma tribe of Negro-Arab descent. The gene frequencies of the above polymorphic systems in the latter were as follows: HbS, 0.13; HbO-Arab, 0.01; GdB(Khartoum), 0.03. The frequency of GdA was higher in the Hawazma than in the Nuba. A high frequency of glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase (G6PD) deficiency and HpO was present in both the tribes. Essentially similar gene frequencies of Hp1, TfD, PGDC, pC, and PGM1 were observed in both Nuba and Hawazma. The average heterozygosity at five polymorphic loci was the same (0.23) in both the tribes. The above results agree with the social practice whereby people of mixed Hawazma and Nuba descent are considered members of the Hawazma tribe and confirm that racial admixture between the two groups can be seen as a process of gene flow from the Nuba to the Hawazma, even though the Nuba are the indigenous group, while the Hawazma are the new settlers.
PMID: 3475983 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
_____________________________________________________ The inter- and intra-tribal distribution of red cell G6PD phenotypes in Sudan.
Saha N, Samuel AP, Omer A, Hoffbrand AV.
1,416 males and 564 female subjects from four Negroid and five Arab tribes and a group of mixed tribes of the Sudan were investigated for the phenotypic distribution of red cell glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase by starch gel electrophoresis. In general, the tribes of Negroid origin had higher frequency of GdA compared to the tribes of Arab ancestry. However, the Nilotes showed a lower frequency of GdA allele and the Mahass tribe claiming an Arab origin had a higher frequency of GdA. The immigrant groups from the neighbouring African countries also had a higher frequency of GdA. GdB (Khartoum) was present in low frequencies in both the Arab and Negroid tribes. A great deal of intratribal variation in the phenotypic distribution of G6PD was observed in the Nuba and Gaali tribes from different localities.
Some blood genetic characteristics of several Sudanese tribes.
Saha N, el Seikh FS.
The distribution of ABO and Rhesus blood groups, serum haptoglobin, and transferrin; red cell glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase and acid phosphatase; and hemoglobin was studied among the two aboriginal negroid tribes (Nuba and Fur); the Nilotic tribe; five tribes of Arab ancestory; and a mixed group of other minor tribes of Arab origin. The Nilotic and Nuba tribes were genetically quite distinct from the rest, with lower R1, R2, and r in the Rhesus system and low HbS and Gd-. The Arab tribes had a genetic structure which was intermediate between that of the original negroid population of the Sudan and the Arabs to the north. However, some of the Arab tribes had special genetical characteristics, e.g., Messeria had high TfD1; both Messeria and Hawazma had high HbS and Gd-, while GdA was higher only in the Hawazma. The Gaalin had very low HbS, Ro, GdA, and Gd-, suggestive of less negroid admixture compared to Messeria and Hawazma. The Fur, though an aboriginal negroid tribe, had genetic characteristics similar to Arabs.
PMID: 3113266 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
^ Those sources were debunked in this forum years ago, dummy! First of all blood factors are not an accurate indicator especially since African prossess the greatest diversity of blood factors. Second, they obviously fail epically in using debunk racial terminology like "negroid"! The first source is mistaken for calling the Beja an "Arab" tribe when they are obviously NOT and don't even speak Arabic as their primary language let alone claim Arab descent! sources even go to show that some tribes claiming 'Arab' identity are actually "negroid" in their categorized affinities. Your sources pretty much suggest that so-called 'Arab' and other northern Sudanese peoples possess greater affinity with people farther north as in EGYPT! You realize that southern Egyptians like Sa'idi do NOT ethnically consider themselves 'Arab' even though they speak Arabic!
Keep wriggling! Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Reread my post. The writers of that article are being vague, and seem to be lacking in the math department. What the authors don't say, is that only 7/49=12% of the macroscopically analysed hairs were microscopically studied. The former analysis (macroscopic) is how Strouhal catagorized the strands in wavy, curly and straight catagories, the latter analysis (microscopic) is how he obtained his indices.
Of the total of 49 hair strands, only the so-called ''racially mixed'', strands were sent to be analysed. This means the straight hairs, and the numerically dominant wavy hairs, are not proportionally represented in that range.
Additionally, I have trouble understanding what type of math led the author to make an average out of a range that is described as ''35-65''.
Last time I checked, to produce an average, one needs to know all the individual scores, and that is precisely what Strouhal didn't report. With the Badarian average not bringing down the weight that is raised by 2 of the total 4 studies that report a wavy average (around 65%), but actually contributing to it, the overal average of 60% they report becomes questionable.
To calculate the average Egyptian index from those four papers, one cannot sloppily re-average the four averages. To produce an acceptable number, all indices of all four papers, must be added and divided by the total number of strands. Recalculation of the indices of the four papers is made impossible by the undisclosed indices, and unrepresentativeness of at least one paper (Strouhal's), but possibly others as well (not sure if the Italian paper they report is a different version than the one uploaded by Truthcentric, or a different paper altogether, so I'm restricting my comments to ''one''), so like I said, their work is questionable.
I understand now. So you were talking about the data not only from Strouhal but the other scientists. I concur that it's not necessary to use the index of each and every hair follicle. The point still stands that loose hair is indigenous and very much African!
quote: I'm not in it to know all the indices of each specific hair strand, I could care less. The only thing I wanted to demonstrate with this thread is that groups directly below the 1st cataract and Egyptians cluster on all scientifically discernable ways, and that wavy and straight haired Egyptians aren't an exception, or a marker of admixture that separates Egyptians from their direct neighbors to the south, as Mathilda tried to insinuate with this article: http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/07/21/mummies-and-mummy-hair-from-ancient-egypt/
The more appropriate contemporary sister populations can - and should - be used as a comparative population
Mathilda like Dienekes is just another Eurocentric propagandist. It's a shame the disinformation she spreads on the net which is why the only solution would be to call her out and others like her. I have only read a few of her pages years ago to get the gist of who she is but afte that avoided her blog.
quote:Nobody has to buy this bullshit either:
The reference to certain pharaohs resembling the Kushite Beja comes from the X-Ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies, by Wente et al (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980). This observation came from a study of the late Dynasty XVII royal mummies, particularly Seqenenre Ta'aa's mummy. If you look at this mummy, he has tightly curled hair, and along with the other royals of late Dynasty XVIII-Early Dynasty XVIII, they show marked prognatism in the upper jaw, with many exhibiting a bad case of "buck teeth". This, plus the occurence of Beja names in the Dynasty XVII tombs at El-Qab, led the authors to conclude that there may have been links between the Medja mercenaries so common in the armies of this period, and the royals in this family. However, after Amenhotep I, the male line died out, and Thutmose I brought new blood into the old royal line. So, the comment about the resemblance of the royals to the Medja applies only to the late Dynasty XVII and early Dynasty XVIII rulers starting with Tety-sheri and Senakhtenre of Dynasty XVII.
So, this is not a false story, but is based upopn the observation and study of the mummies of this group of royals.
Most sincerely,
Frank J. Yurco University of Chicago
^Here Yurco attempts to associate tightly curled hair (among other things) as a marker that can be used consistently to distinquish between Nubians and Egyptians.
Yes. It's strange how Yurco even goes to admit that Egyptians were black yet fails to connect them with Nubians until one looks very black(?)!!
quote:Or this:
“The physical features and hair of his properly mummified body make it certain that Maiherpri was of Nubian origin. He is the only known Nubian to be buried in this exclusive royal cemetery, and his position was of a valued servant…burial items included… a copy of the Book of the Dead in which he appears as the dark-skinned deceased.” (“Historical Dictionary Of Ancient And Medieval Nubia" Richard Lobban 2004)
Are they serious?! This is definitely erroneous and I dare say racist! The only reason why Maiherpri was interred in an exclusive royal cemetary was because he WAS a royal!! He was considered son of the pharaoh and thus a Prince of Egypt and not merely a "valued servant". I painstakingly explained this in other threads!!
quote:Nor does anyone have to put up with this:
“Hair was predominately used to construct the wigs and false braids which served as items of daily and funerary attire throughout the Pharaonic period (Fletcher 1995). The hair employed for this purpose was specifically human hair, and in almost every case can be identified as cynotrichous (Caucasian) rather than heliotrichous (Negroid) (Hrdy 1978; Titlbachova and Titlbach 1977; Brunton 1937; el-Tatrawi 1935).” (“Ancient Egyptian Materials and Technology" Paul Nicholson, Ian Shaw 2000)
Not that cynotrichous means wavy, not straight, and that it agrees with the hair form that seems to have been predominant among Egyptians and Northern Sudanese. The wigs should be considered as made out of indigenous hair first, before attempts are made to look outside of the Nile Valley.
Actually the literal translation of 'cynotrichous' is *DOG*-hair! In other words they compare so-called 'caucasian' hair to that of dogs! LOL Of course the authors find the hair to be indigenous, but they assume these were indigenous "caucasians" is the problem. The source is also inaccurate since apparently there were many wigs made from heliotrichous hair as well. Or maybe these Amun priest afro wigs are some sort of exception.
quote:It surprises me that ES veterans like Djehuty and Zaharan haven't embraced the data posted here with the same enthousiasm as me, and instead, actually partake in perpetuating the myth that is subscribed to by the likes of Yurco, that holds that Nile Valley populations (ought to) have the same hair as stereotyped Africans, when they obviously don't.
I don't know where you got this idea that I support such Euronut nonsense!! I clearly acknowledge that such type hair is indigenous to Africa and can be found as far south as Uganda for Godsakes! I also made it pretty clear that I believe the source of such hair forms among Egyptians can be found right in the Sahara!!
quote:The bar should be raised; Somali's and Ethiopians aren't standalone exceptions, and the scientifically advocated range of African cross section indices should be raised from 0 - 60% to at least 65% (as population averages), and including with it wavy and occasional straight hair.
Of course! 'Horners' are definitely not the exception but quite part of a norm that is grossly understated!
quote:If people want to use hair to demonstrate Eurasian diffusion into Africa, they'll have to reinforce their hair data with osteological data a convincing case.
Yes, which is why I've always went by Explorer's theory that such forms are very prehistoric and very well have originated in Africa during the paleolithic among early modern humans (in Africa) for it to be associated with OOA Eurasian populations as well as those populations indigenous to Africa!!
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^^ I agree man. This proves that the Egyptians and Nubians were not a "Black/White" or Mixed/Pure Black population as some try to claim.
Wavy and straight hair were obviously common among Nubians and Southern Nile Valley populations.
Will def. add this to my blog..
^Good idea.
Here are the specific pages, they may prove usefull:
The table I presented on the 1st page includes the burial nrs. You can use those to quicky identify the quotes that desribe hair, on each of the listed pages.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
WOW thanks Kalonji, useful stuff man!!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
"In sub-Saharan Africa, many anthropological characters show a wide range of population means or frequencies. In some of them, the whole world range is covered in the sub-continent. Here live the shortest and the tallest human populations, the one with the highest and the one with the lowest nose, the one with the thickest and the one with the thinnest lips in the world. In this area, the range of the average nose widths covers 92 per cent of the world range: only a narrow range of extremely low means are absent from the African record. Means for head diameters cover about 80 per cent of the world range; 60 per cent is the corresponding value for a variable once cherished by physical anthropologists, the cephalic index, or ratio of the head width to head length expressed as a percentage....." Jean Hiernaux, The People of Africa (1975)
If Africans possess tremendous diversity in stature, cranio-facial features, and even complexions, why not hair?! We know that tightly coiled (heliotrichous) or 'kinky' type hair is the most common type in Sub-Sahara, enough to be viewed as the stereotypical African hair, yet kinky hair is not the extreme for tight coiled hair but rather approaches it. The true extreme of tight follicle coiling is 'spiral-tuft' which is found among the Khoisan peoples of southern Africa though it is also found among certain aboriginal groups in the Pacific as well. Hair that is looser than kinky hair is tightly curled, and looser than that is loose curls. Even looser hair is wavy, and of course after that comes straight hair. Again my point is Africans possess tremendous genetic diversity that is reflected in their rather broad range of statures, physiques, and especially facial traits, so how come the same can't be for hair. I find it rather interesting how you have those Africans in one extreme with spiral-tuft hair in southern Africa and then Africans in the other extreme with wavy or straight hair in northern Africa. NO Eurasian or caca-soid input required!!
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^^ I agree man. This proves that the Egyptians and Nubians were not a "Black/White" or Mixed/Pure Black population as some try to claim.
Wavy and straight hair were obviously common among Nubians and Southern Nile Valley populations.
Will def. add this to my blog..
Actually what it suggests is that "Nubians" as opposed to the sub set Kushites might not have all indigenous Africans. That's what's startling about this.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
This has nothing to do with being unfair to African variability, and being more acceptive of variation when it comes to other nations. Variability has limits, and it works logically, not spastically. Two sister populations don't just diverge on one single aspect, and remain the same in all others. I was operating from that perspective. I'm not going to sit there, and turn a blind eye to inconsistencies, under the guise of ''ow, every form of variation is because of indigenous variation''.
As it turns out, I was right about finding something incongruent about the picture of Nubians and Egyptians being alike in all manners aside from hair form. The thing that was inconsistent was the portrayal of the hair forms of Northern Sudanese groups, as the data in the OP's shows.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote: Originally posted by Djehuty: I don't know where you got this idea that I support such Euronut nonsense!! I clearly acknowledge that such type hair is indigenous to Africa and can be found as far south as Uganda for Godsakes! I also made it pretty clear that I believe the source of such hair forms among Egyptians can be found right in the Sahara!!
I know about your position on the Bilma and Kanuri, but for some reason, when it comes to the Nile Valley, there seems to be this huge attempt by people who support an African origin of AE, to try to force those hairs into a range where some of it clearly does not belong. Instead of raising the bar of what African hair is capable of expressing, they rather try to force Egyptian and Nubian hair into the old stereotyped construct, just to be on the safe side. The article ''hanging in the hair'' is just a symptom of this tendency, some people here also seem to drool over Herodotus' description of AE hair, as whooly, which is only partly supported by examinations of mummy hair.
quote: Originally posted by Djehuty: If Africans possess tremendous diversity in stature, cranio-facial features, and even complexions, why not hair?! We know that tightly coiled (heliotrichous) or 'kinky' type hair is the most common type in Sub-Sahara, enough to be viewed as the stereotypical African hair, yet kinky hair is not the extreme for tight coiled hair but rather approaches it. The true extreme of tight follicle coiling is 'spiral-tuft' which is found among the Khoisan peoples of southern Africa though it is also found among certain aboriginal groups in the Pacific as well. Hair that is looser than kinky hair is tightly curled, and looser than that is loose curls. Even looser hair is wavy, and of course after that comes straight hair.
You make a great point; even when we speak about ''stereotyped African hair'', it implies that we're talking about one type of hair form, that is then readily contrastable, or distinctly different from wavy hair, when in realty, we're just dealing with a continuum. The question is asked, if wavy/straight hair is native to Africa, why do most Sub Saharan Africans have the same hair?
In all actuality, ''stereotyped African hair'', which is erroneously seen as consisting of a single type, covers 60% of all possible cross sections (0-60%), and since cross section and hair form are heavly correlated, this should as you've mentioned, be manifested in many hair appearances, and it does.
This range of 60% is without taking Somali and Ancient Nubian hair in account. Look at the following for example (note the indices of the first two quotes use indexes that look at cross section as the percentage of maximum diameter relative to minimun diameter, rather than the other way around, this produces indices above 100%, eg, Piedmont hair cross sections have a maximum diameter of 136%, relative to its minimum diameter. The other way of pronoucing the Piedmont average cross section index, ie, minimum diameter relative to max. diameter, would be 64%):
quote:Hair of European origin was found to be oval in cross section. Within this ethnic group the ellipticity index increased in the order Piedmont hair (1.36), light brown European hair (1.46), and finally dark brown European hair (1.52). African-American hair fiber had twisted ribbon shapes, which in cross section appeared as flattened or curved ovals. The average ellipticity index for the African hair was found to be 1.6.
quote:The variations in the ellipticity indices found in our study are in good agreement with the general trend reported in the literature (13,14). The hair of Asian background is generally reported to be the closest to having a circular cross section, with an ellipticity index around 1.25, oval European hair having a ratio of 1.35, and African-American hair, with the greatest deviation from circularity, having an average ellipticity index of 1.75. We note that the average ellipticity index of 1.6 obtained in our study for African hair is at the low end of the wide range of ellipticity indices (1.6-1.9) reported in the literature.
Note that even these authors don't seem to have their facts totally straight, as all the cross sections they report seem lower than reported elsewhere (they have dark brown Euro hair inside the African range as well). Their range of African hair (10/40%) certainly doesnt cover the full spectrum:
quote:Asian hair has the greatest fibre diameter and exhibits a circular sectional profile with a mean ellipticity of approximately 90%, giving it an almost fully circular profile. In contrast, African hair exhibits high inter-individual variability with regard to diameter but also with respect to the degree of ellipticity of the hair fibre cross-section. The mean ellipticity value is closer to 60%, although there is also much variability along the length of the hair fibres.
-Hair in Toxicology - An Important Bio-Monitor
This makes the question of whether African climates are capaple of producing more than one hair form, fundamentally assumptive, as ''stereotyped hair'', is - in terms of hair form and cross secton at least - way more varied than the hair of light-skinned Eurasians, so how could there be a question of whether African climates can select for more straighter hair?
Paradoxically, Eurasian hair is given two categories, despite being much less variable (consisting of much less than 35%, as hair cross sections cannot be perfectly round), and African hair, only one: heliotrichous.
Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
This is painful watching these afrocentrists come to grips with their whiteness, or lack of.lol
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^^ I agree man. This proves that the Egyptians and Nubians were not a "Black/White" or Mixed/Pure Black population as some try to claim.
Wavy and straight hair were obviously common among Nubians and Southern Nile Valley populations.
Will def. add this to my blog..
Actually what it suggests is that "Nubians" as opposed to the sub set Kushites might not have all indigenous Africans. That's what's startling about this.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
This has nothing to do with being unfair to African variability, and being more acceptive of variation when it comes to other nations. Variability has limits, and it works logically, not spastically. Two sister populations don't just diverge on one single aspect, and remain the same in all others. I was operating from that perspective. I'm not going to sit there, and turn a blind eye to inconsistencies, under the guise of ''ow, every form of variation is because of indigenous variation''.
As it turns out, I was right about finding something incongruent about the picture of Nubians and Egyptians being alike in all manners aside from hair form. The thing that was inconsistent was the portrayal of the hair forms of Northern Sudanese groups, as the data in the OP's shows.
Go do something you rarely do: read, and stop your rather odd habit of quoting people who don't support you, in any way, shape or form, for support. The same hair forms are also reported for the craniometrically morphologically more ''Negroid'' X group and Meroitic era Kushites. This is relayed in the chart I posted.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Simple Girl: This is painful watching these afrocentrists come to grips with their whiteness, or lack of.lol
Got any scientific data to counter what has been posted thusfar? Oops, silly me, of course you don't.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: WOW thanks Kalonji, useful stuff man!!
It's drenched with outdated terms, methods and interpretations, but yes, very useful if one is capable of filtering the gold out of the mud, so to speak.
Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Simple Girl: This is painful watching these afrocentrists come to grips with their whiteness, or lack of.lol
Got any scientific data to counter what has been posted thusfar? Oops, silly me, of course you don't.
Do you even know what scientific evidence is? Oops, silly me, of course you don't.lol
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Enlighten me, and tell me how any of the above isn't supported by science. No excuses or running away from this request; spit it out.
Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Enlighten me, and tell me how any of the above isn't supported by science. No excuses or running away from this request; spit it out.
You don't know the meaning of enlightenment if it were to smack you right dab in the middle of your face. I could post all the scientific evidence in the world and you would still ignore it.
The Sumerians brought your people civilization and they screwed it up. Get used to it.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
hair type does correlate with climate!
Swenet and zarahan may not agree with that statement.
If hair type does correlate to climate
1) what climate does straight hair correlate to?
2) what climate does afro-kinky hair correlate to?
.
.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Simple Girl:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Enlighten me, and tell me how any of the above isn't supported by science. No excuses or running away from this request; spit it out.
You don't know the meaning of enlightenment if it were to smack you right dab in the middle of your face. I could post all the scientific evidence in the world and you would still ignore it.
The Sumerians brought your people civilization and they screwed it up. Get used to it.
LOL, you puck'n troll, stop crawling around and get to it: tell me how any of the above isn't supported by science.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
lioness and her "aboriginal negroid tribes". lol
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
First, the term "wavy" also has to be qualified here. Second, i'm sure in the time this was written by Elliot Smith the effects of the chemicals and mummification and chemical processes after death on hair wasn't understood.
It probably isn't a true picture of the characteristics of Nubian hair previous to mummification in the early periods. Otherwise most Ethiopians and Nubians would have "wavy" hair.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: It may be more than a coincidence that the Sahara has a similar climate to much of Australia where the native inhabitants also have wavy hair despite being tropically adapted. Maybe living in an arid environment would for some reason select for less tightly curled hair?
That is a hypothesis that I've had for a while as well-- that extremely arid environments correlate with loose wavy hair. In fact not only is wavy hair found among Saharans but like the Australian aborigines, light colored hair including slight blondism can be found as a juvenile trait among children as well, though not as prominent (brightly colored) as Aussie aboriginal children.
quote:That said, while I'm inclined to agree with you that wavy hair is indigenous to the Sahara, Euronuts will claim that the Saharan region would be an admixture zone between "true" black people and "Caucasoids" living on the Mediterranean coastline and therefore that the wavy-haired black peoples you named are not wholly African. Alternatively, some people might agree that the wavy-haired Saharans ARE more or less pure Africans but still maintain that they should be considered distinct from sub-Saharan peoples.
Who gives a sh|t what the Euronuts claim or think?! I don't know about you, but I certainly dont! As for Saharans being distinct from sub-Saharans, how so??! We already know that so-called sub-Saharan populations are continuous with those of the Sahara and even the Mediterranean coasts! I just explained how wavy hair is found as far south as Uganda not to mention the Horn and among Sahelians.
quote:You wouldn't happen to have photos showing the Saharan groups you named, would you?
Well we've already seen photos of Siwan people. The girls usually have their hairs braided.
The Teda people are the same as the Tubu. I couldn't find any pictures of Tubu/Teda with long hair at least girls and women who don't have their hair covered but here are couple pics of them.
But here is one picture of an Egyptian man from Farafra oasis in the western desrert. You may remember him as the poster 'Maahes' from years back who was making ancient Egyptian movie 'Goddess of the Sun' featuring Halle Berry as Nefertiti.
H
Interesting, but this is what black hair looks like when it has a chemical relaxer on. lol!
I wonder whatever happened to that movie. Diana Ross's daughter might have been a better candidate though.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
are you saying Africans are not diverse enough for Rameses to have had straight hair?
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: are you saying Africans are not diverse enough for Rameses to have had straight hair?
Not only was he straight-wavy haired but he was also a redhead.
Negroids don't have straight hair let alone ginger/red hair.
Those features are Caucasoid.
Lol. I wonder if these afronuts are now going to spend hours on google images trying to find images of a ginger haired negro in attempt to refute me. Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:First, the term "wavy" also has to be qualified here.
It already is qualified, clearly, when it is accompanied with descriptions such as ''long and flowing''. There is enough space in between ''peppercorn'', ''curly'', ''wavy'', ''straight'', to know we're dealing with the real thing.
quote:Second, i'm sure in the time this was written by Elliot Smith the effects of the chemicals and mummification and chemical processes after death on hair wasn't understood.
What are the ''effects of mummification'', and what makes you think all those mummies were purposefully mummified? The predynastic hairs seem to be the ''straightest'' of the bunch, judging by the lesser fequencies of anything curlier than wavy and straight.
Are you suggesting that predynastic Nubians were practicing mummification in a correspondingly widespread manner, that can '0some sort of straightener would require? Or that mummification was the most intense in that period, and died down when the dynastic Egyptians were practicing it across the board?
quote:It probably isn't a true picture of the characteristics of Nubian hair previous to mummification in the early periods. Otherwise most Ethiopians and Nubians would have "wavy" hair.
I have no idea what Ethiopians have to do with this, maybe you can explain. I'm not going to speak out about so called modern Nubians, and their hair, because other than the pan grave Nubians, I have heard of no other archaeological complex that can be identified with any of the modern Sudanese groups.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Simpleton:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Enlighten me, and tell me how any of the above isn't supported by science. No excuses or running away from this request; spit it out.
You don't know the meaning of enlightenment if it were to smack you right dab in the middle of your face. I could post all the scientific evidence in the world and you would still ignore it.
The Sumerians brought your people civilization and they screwed it up. Get used to it.
LOL, you puck'n troll, stop crawling around and get to it: tell me how any of the above isn't supported by science.
Swenet, pay no attention to the Simpleminded one. She's just upset that your thread and the data therein shatter and obliterate the claims of her mistress Mathilda and other Euronut pseudo-academics! Now the Simpleton rants about "Sumerians" even though we've shown her in multiple threads that Nile Valley civilization is indigenous to the Nile Valley which is something even predominantly white mainstream Egyptology agrees. She is fertilizer. Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
hair type does correlate with climate!
Swenet and zarahan may not agree with that statement.
If hair type does correlate to climate
1) what climate does straight hair correlate to?
2) what climate does afro-kinky hair correlate to?
.
.
all I hear is crickets
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^^
Will def. add this to my blog..
Actually what it suggests is that "Nubians" as opposed to the sub set Kushites might not have all indigenous Africans. That's what's startling about this.
[/QUOTE]
Let's keep in mind that lower nubia before the meroitic period ended,was mostly red noba,not kushites.
There were BLEMMYES too in lower nubia. kushites from ever book i read had kinky hair while red noba and other nubians in lower nubia had varied hair forms and african features more closer to upper egyptians,of course they were african features,so euronuts lose either way.
It seems these hair studies or lot of studies dealing with head shapes etc is focus more on lower nubia.
IF you look at these studies of the meroitic period and see the location of what parts of nubia is the focus in these studies is lower nubia.
Every study i see a euronut trys to make a point and make nubians non- black is from lower nubia AND THEY TRY to say this was all nubia,and it's clear it's not.
Lower nubia is a abit of a different case then the rest of nubia,so we must be careful not to have lower nubia represent all of nubia,because it does not.
Let's make this simple and cut the bullcrap.
It's clear that kushites of upper and southern nubia had kinky hair and on average round faces,EXAMPLE TAHARQA A KUSHITE,CASE CLOSED.
So i will stick TO the facts that is well known FROM books from well known good scholars not the internet.
Greeks and others make this very clear while lower nubia before the kushite invasions had types more closer to blacks of upper egypt.
Modern scholars makes very this clear too.
In fact most kushites lived in southern nubia closer to central sudan.
MORE studies need to be done there but lower nubia is just easier to get to or study more so right now and historians will tell you that.
Lower nubia was conquered many more times then any other place in nubia as well if you get my point.
It's clear lower nubia had a population that was much smaller then other regions of nubia and it was more varied with different populations. Just saying.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: all I hear is crickets
Yeh, whenever you're asked to prove your holocau$t story or when evergreen asks you to specify your "intermediate" features. Crickets indeed. lol
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Let's keep in mind that lower nubia before the meroitic period ended,was mostly red noba,not kushites.
According to what source?
quote:It's clear that kushites of upper and southern nubia had kinky hair and on average round faces,EXAMPLE TAHARQA A KUSHITE,CASE CLOSED.
Would the facial features of Kermites agree with this discription?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass: all I hear is crickets
Because that is all that exists between your ears. Posted by Sahel (Siptah) (Member # 17601) on :
quote:Sources:
The Archological Survey of Nubia: Report For 1907-1908 -G. Elliot Smith,F. Wood Jones
Crania Ægyptiaca, or, Observations on Egyptian ethnography -Samuel George Morton
How do these scientists designate the term "wavy" and "curly?"
Kinky hair can also be wavy and curly and there are millions of kinky haired peoples in Africa who have curly, wavy, long and flowing hair.
Second, the authors describing the samples are prejudice for having to additionally throw in the term "typical." A term relative to the persons perspective for its existence.
What other information has been considered besides their subjective report of the hair structure on the samples given i.e. microscopic characteristics and analysis of the hair shafts / roots?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:How do these scientists designate the term "wavy" and "curly?".
What do you mean ''how do they designate the term ''wavy and curly''? The same way you would when you know what the terms mean according to their definition, and apply them in the real world. I find it interesting that both you and Dana question their ability to designate wavy, but not their ability to designate peppercorn hair. Surely, someone incapable of diagnosing the former, cannot be trusted diagnosing the latter, yet attention is focused on wavy, why?
quote:Kinky hair can also be wavy and curly and there are millions of kinky haired peoples in Africa who have curly, wavy, long and flowing hair.
By definition it is impossible for someone to have kinky, yet wavy long and flowing hair. Don't let that stop you from posting examples though, I'd appreciate pics of African people with kinky hair whose hair form matches your description.
quote:Second, the authors describing the samples are prejudice for having to additionally throw in the term "typical." A term relative to the persons perspective for its existence.
Yes, and that isn't the only questionable term they've been sprinkling around. However, how that effects the hair descriptons being made, I have yet to see.
quote:What other information has been considered besides their subjective report of the hair structure on the samples given i.e. microscopic characteristics and analysis of the hair shafts / roots?
None, unless I have been missing something. Remember, it reports the results of archaeolocal surveys, its not a hair study.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Let's keep in mind that lower nubia before the meroitic period ended,was mostly red noba,not kushites.
According to what source?
quote:It's clear that kushites of upper and southern nubia had kinky hair and on average round faces,EXAMPLE TAHARQA A KUSHITE,CASE CLOSED.
Would the facial features of Kermites agree with this discription?
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Let's keep in mind that lower nubia before the meroitic period ended,was mostly red noba,not kushites.
According to what source?
quote:It's clear that kushites of upper and southern nubia had kinky hair and on average round faces,EXAMPLE TAHARQA A KUSHITE,CASE CLOSED.
Would the facial features of Kermites agree with this discription?
QUOTE-
I’ve already mentioned Claudius Ptolemaeus’ Geographica, that in c.150 AD places the Nubae south of Egypt. Contrary to what many people assume, he puts them east of the Nile. Ptolemaeus says the Nubae live to the far west of the Avalitae. Point is: Ptolemaeus is in this paragraph generally talking about the people east of the Nile, and he places the Avalitae to the African coast of the bay of Eden. Actually, Ptolemaeus mentions several tribes living between the Nubae and the river Nile.
[…] the parts on the left side of the course of the Nile, in Libya, are inhabited by Nubae, a large tribe, who, beginning at Meroë, extend as far as the bends of the river, and are not subject to the Aethiopians but are divided into several separate kingdoms.
Anyway: the Kings of Meroe no longer cared much for Lower Nubia., and neither did the Romans: Procopius of Caesarea (500-565 AD), relates how the Emperor Diocletian (245–312 AD) decided to withdraw Roman troops from Lower Nubia. Two nations to the south worried him though: the Blemmyae (Beja) to the southeast and the Nobatae to the southwest at a place called Premnis:
[…] so he persuaded these barbarians [the Nobatae] to move from their own habitations, and to settle along the River Nile […]. For in this way he thought that they would no longer harass the country about Pselchis at least, and that they would possess themselves of the land given them, as being their own, and would probably beat off the Blemmyae and the other barbarians.
And since this pleased the Nobatae, they made the migration immediately, just as Diocletian directed them, and took possession of all the Roman cities and the land on both sides of the River beyond the city of Elephantine.
Clearly the Nobatae are no subjects of Meroe. At this time, around 300 AD, Meroe’s power declined rapidly, weakened by the advance of people from both East and West.
In the east Axum was coming up. This Kingdom in what is today Ethiopia, reached the hight of its power under its first Christian ruler Ezana (330–356 AD). In an inscription found in Meroe, he announces:
I took the field against the Noba when the people of Noba revolted and did violence to the Mangurto; Hasa and Barya, and the Black Noba waged war on the Red Noba. I fought on the Takkaze [Atbara] at the ford of Kemalke. They fled, and I pursued the fugitives twenty-three days slaying them and capturing others and taking plunder; I burnt their towns, and seized their corn and their bronze and the dried meat and the images in their temples and destroyed the stocks of corn and cotton; and the enemy plunged into the river Seda [Blue Nile].
I arrived at the Kasu [Kush], slaying them and taking others prisoner at the junction of the rivers Seda and Takkaze. I dispatched troops up the Seda against their towns of Alwa and Daro; they slew and took prisoners and threw them into the water and they returned safe and sound. And I sent the troops down the Seda against the towns of straw of the Noba and Negues; the towns of masonry of the Kasu which the Noba had taken were Tabito, Fertoti; and they arrived at the territory of the Red Noba, and my people returned safe and sound after they had taken prisoners and slain others and had seized their plunder.
Despite advances made by archaeologists and linguists in unravelling the complex situation around Meroe, it is still impossible to say what really happened. Apparently the Black Noba were the ones revolting; they attacked the neighbouring people, including the Red Noba and they took over some Kasu towns. But towns still held by the Kasu, were sacked just the same, and the Red Noba territory wasn’t spared by the Axumite armies either.
In the next few centuries three Christian Kingdoms emerged from the ruins of the Kushite Kingdom. The first one is Nobatia in Lower Nubia; there’s little doubt that Nobatia was established by the Nobatae mentioned by Procopius. The second one is Makuria, between the third cataract and somewhere between the fifth and the sixth; also known after its capital as Dongola, it could well have evolved from the part of the Kushite Kingdom that was taken over by the Black Noba. The third is Alodia to the South of Makuria; also known as Alwa, it could have been the remainder of the Kushite Kingdom. The rulers of these kingdoms were converted to Christianity by missionaries from different sects.
MORE OF THIS IN THE NEXT REPLY.
Here is a very idea what upper and southern nubians looked like.
1-THE DESTRUCTION OF BLACK civilization by chancellor williams. Some things are incorrect when it comes to other certain things or out of date but overall a good book.
The destruction of Black civilization: great issues of a race from 4500 B.C. to 2000 A.D.
^I have read p196-205 of the second book you mention, but there are no answers to my questions. Can you specify which source answers which question?
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
EDITED-
quote:Originally posted by kenndo:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Let's keep in mind that lower nubia before the meroitic period ended,was mostly red noba,not kushites.
According to what source?
quote:It's clear that kushites of upper and southern nubia had kinky hair and on average round faces,EXAMPLE TAHARQA A KUSHITE,CASE CLOSED.
Would the facial features of Kermites agree with this discription?
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Let's keep in mind that lower nubia before the meroitic period ended,was mostly red noba,not kushites.
According to what source?
quote:It's clear that kushites of upper and southern nubia had kinky hair and on average round faces,EXAMPLE TAHARQA A KUSHITE,CASE CLOSED.
Would the facial features of Kermites agree with this discription?
QUOTE-
I’ve already mentioned Claudius Ptolemaeus’ Geographica, that in c.150 AD places the Nubae south of Egypt. Contrary to what many people assume, he puts them east of the Nile. Ptolemaeus says the Nubae live to the far west of the Avalitae. Point is: Ptolemaeus is in this paragraph generally talking about the people east of the Nile, and he places the Avalitae to the African coast of the bay of Eden. Actually, Ptolemaeus mentions several tribes living between the Nubae and the river Nile.
[…] the parts on the left side of the course of the Nile, in Libya, are inhabited by Nubae, a large tribe, who, beginning at Meroë, extend as far as the bends of the river, and are not subject to the Aethiopians but are divided into several separate kingdoms.
Anyway: the Kings of Meroe no longer cared much for Lower Nubia., and neither did the Romans: Procopius of Caesarea (500-565 AD), relates how the Emperor Diocletian (245–312 AD) decided to withdraw Roman troops from Lower Nubia. Two nations to the south worried him though: the Blemmyae (Beja) to the southeast and the Nobatae to the southwest at a place called Premnis:
[…] so he persuaded these barbarians [the Nobatae] to move from their own habitations, and to settle along the River Nile […]. For in this way he thought that they would no longer harass the country about Pselchis at least, and that they would possess themselves of the land given them, as being their own, and would probably beat off the Blemmyae and the other barbarians.
And since this pleased the Nobatae, they made the migration immediately, just as Diocletian directed them, and took possession of all the Roman cities and the land on both sides of the River beyond the city of Elephantine.
Clearly the Nobatae are no subjects of Meroe. At this time, around 300 AD, Meroe’s power declined rapidly, weakened by the advance of people from both East and West.
In the east Axum was coming up. This Kingdom in what is today Ethiopia, reached the hight of its power under its first Christian ruler Ezana (330–356 AD). In an inscription found in Meroe, he announces:
I took the field against the Noba when the people of Noba revolted and did violence to the Mangurto; Hasa and Barya, and the Black Noba waged war on the Red Noba. I fought on the Takkaze [Atbara] at the ford of Kemalke. They fled, and I pursued the fugitives twenty-three days slaying them and capturing others and taking plunder; I burnt their towns, and seized their corn and their bronze and the dried meat and the images in their temples and destroyed the stocks of corn and cotton; and the enemy plunged into the river Seda [Blue Nile].
I arrived at the Kasu [Kush], slaying them and taking others prisoner at the junction of the rivers Seda and Takkaze. I dispatched troops up the Seda against their towns of Alwa and Daro; they slew and took prisoners and threw them into the water and they returned safe and sound. And I sent the troops down the Seda against the towns of straw of the Noba and Negues; the towns of masonry of the Kasu which the Noba had taken were Tabito, Fertoti; and they arrived at the territory of the Red Noba, and my people returned safe and sound after they had taken prisoners and slain others and had seized their plunder.
Despite advances made by archaeologists and linguists in unravelling the complex situation around Meroe, it is still impossible to say what really happened. Apparently the Black Noba were the ones revolting; they attacked the neighbouring people, including the Red Noba and they took over some Kasu towns. But towns still held by the Kasu, were sacked just the same, and the Red Noba territory wasn’t spared by the Axumite armies either.
In the next few centuries three Christian Kingdoms emerged from the ruins of the Kushite Kingdom. The first one is Nobatia in Lower Nubia; there’s little doubt that Nobatia was established by the Nobatae mentioned by Procopius. The second one is Makuria, between the third cataract and somewhere between the fifth and the sixth; also known after its capital as Dongola, it could well have evolved from the part of the Kushite Kingdom that was taken over by the Black Noba. The third is Alodia to the South of Makuria; also known as Alwa, it could have been the remainder of the Kushite Kingdom. The rulers of these kingdoms were converted to Christianity by missionaries from different sects.
MORE OF THIS IN THE NEXT REPLY.
Here is a very idea what upper and southern nubians looked like.
1-THE DESTRUCTION OF BLACK civilization by chancellor williams. Some things are incorrect when it comes to other certain things or out of date but overall a good book.
The destruction of Black civilization: great issues of a race from 4500 B.C. to 2000 A.D.
Introduction I. The name Nuba II. Kingdoms on the Nile III. The origins of the Nuba
Introduction
The Nuba are a group of peoples who share a common geography in Sudan’s Southern Kordofan Province, known as Jibal al-Nuba or Nuba Mountains. The origins of most Nuba peoples are obscure, but there is no doubt that they are Africans. They arrived to the area from various directions and in the course of thousands of years. Today there are over fifty Nuba tribes, who speak as many different languages. Their combined number is estimated at 2.5 million people.
Until the Egyptian occupation of Sudan during the nineteenth century, most Nuba tribes lived relatively isolated. Contiguous events that shaped their history are the short but extremely violent rule of the Mahdi and his successor, and colonial rule by the British. Sudan took its independence in 1956 and since the 1960s the Nuba have been at odds with their successive National Governments. From 1987 to 2001 the Nuba Mountains were a battle zone in one of the civil wars that continue to devastate the country.
Traditionally the Nuba are farmers, but they are now employed in all segments of society. Since the beginning of the twentieth century, labour migrants have formed large Nuba communities in the large cities of North Sudan, like El Obeid, Khartoum and Port Sudan. In the 1980s and 1990s, the migrants were joined by hundreds of thousands of people who fled from violence. Since fighting in the Nuba Mountains was officially ended in January 2002, many refugees are returning home.
The following brief history aims at providing a broad perspective on the history of the Nuba. I have drawn from many different sources, and consulted scientists considered to be expert in their field for the more remote history. For the most recent history I have relied largely on interviews with Nuba who were closely involved in the developemts leading to the war in the Nuba Mountains and eventually the signing of the Comprehensive Peace Agreement in 2004.
I. The name Nuba
For centuries, the geographical area where the Nuba tribes live has been known as Dar Nuba: the land of the Nuba. The Tegali Kingdom (a truly Nuba kingdom indeed) was known on its own accord, as were several individual hills, but to the Arab people living around the area, the people of the Mountains were all Nuba. The Europeans, relying on the Arabs for information, used the same name.
Until very recently the Nuba people themselves would rather use their tribal name and many didn’t really consider themselves to be Nuba. In the words of Yousif Kuwa Mekki:
It is one of the funniest things: when you were in the Nuba Mountains, you just knew your own tribe. We for example were Miri. So if we were asked: "Who are the Nuba?" we would try to say: "The other tribes - but not us." Only when we came out of the Nuba Mountains, to the north or south or west, we learned that we are all Nuba.1
Please note the word ‘try’ here: linguist and anthropologist A.C. Stevenson noticed that:
Some of the more educated are also shy of applying the term to themselves, they tend to reserve it for those they think of as rustic hill-dwellers: for them ‘Nuba’ is the reverse of a status symbol.2
An old theory supposes a relationship between the word ‘Nuba’ and the Archaic Egyption nbw [nebu], meaning ‘gold’. In ancient times the land south of Egypt produced a lot of gold and so the people were gold diggers; or the ‘land of gold’ would be called Nubia (which it wasn’t) and its people Nuba… Brief: lot’s of charming nonsense.3 And then there is A.J. Arkell’s expalantion:
The name of the Nuba apparently comes, like so many other tribal names in the Sudan (Berti, Berta, Burgu, etc-) from a word in their own language which means 'slaves'.4
Surely there is a connection: the Nuba were harassed by slave raiders for many centuries and to the Arabs ‘Nuba’ became nearly synonymous with ‘slave’. But since Arkell doesn’t mention in which of the many Nuba languages their name means ‘slave’, there is little we can say about his theory, except quoting anthropologist S.F. Nadel:
I will not attempt to trace the origin of this name or to speculate on its original meaning. Suffice to say that in none of the groups which I have studied is the term Nuba indigenous […]5
II. Kingdoms on the Nile
1. Nubia There are Nuba and there are Nubians and this is cause for great confusion. The Nuba are the different peoples living in the Nuba Mountains in Southern Kordofan. The Nubians today are a people who live along the Nile at the border between Egypt and Sudan. Many of them were relocated when the Nasser Dam was built. The Nubians are considered to be descendants of the great Nubian Kingdoms of Kush; Meroe; Nobatia; Makuria (Dongola) or Alodia (Alwa).
I will first run through Nubian history and then turn to the present insights on any connections between the Nuba of Kordofan and the Nubian Kingdoms.
The word ‘Nubia’ is used to describe the land along the Nile south of Egypt; divided into a ‘lower Nubia’ for the area between the first and the second cataract, and an ‘upper Nubia’ for the land beyond the second cataract. Historically however there never was any kingdom or tribe or civilisation by the name Nubia. The use of ‘Nubia’ for the region seems to originate with European atlas makers of the early renaissance who drew maps based on the work of the astrologist and geographer Claudius Ptolemaeus (90-168 AD).6
The earliest Egyptian kings (pre-dynastic and those of the first dynasties) referred to the people to their south as Ta Seti or ‘people of the bow’, for their skill as archers. The Ta Seti were well organised, and their civilisation was not unlike that of the first Egyptians. They disappeared however.
By the Sixth Dynasty (ca. 2323-2150 BC), Egyptian references to Wawat, Irtjet, and Setju seem to identify different small kingdoms in Lower Nubia. They also mention Yam, a kingdom in upper Nubia. There was trade between Yam and Egypt.
While the Middle Kingdom replaced the Old Kingdom in Egypt (ca. 2134-2040 BC), political changes also took place in Upper Nubia. ‘Yam’ disappeared from Egyptian texts and was replaced by Kush, which the Egyptians described as ‘vile’ or ‘contemptible’. Kush became a major power in the south and it took over Lower Nubia around 1700 BC.
Chances turned again and the Egyptians of the New Kingdom (c.1532-1070 BC) crushed the Kush kingdom and its capital Kerma. By the end of the reign of Thutmose I in 1520 BC, all of Upper Nubia had been annexed. The Egyptians built a new administrative and religious centre at Napata; the Nubian elite adopted the worship of Egyptian gods and the hieroglyphic writing system. This way a lot of the ancient Egyptian culture was kept alive for many centuries while the power of Egypt slowly declined.
By 800 BC Egypt had fragmented into rival states, but in 747 BC the Kushite king Piankhy (Piyi) marched north from his capital at Napata and reunified Egypt. Kushite kings ruled both Nubia and Egypt until the invasion of an Assyrian army in 667 BC. The Nubian king fled back to Napata and was defeated decisively in 664 BC.
In 656 BC Psamtik I, founder of the 26th Saite Dynasty, reunited Egypt. In 591 BC his successor Psamtik II invaded Kush and sacked and burned Napata. The kings of Kush moved their capital to Meroë, where they continued to build temples to Nubian and Egyptian gods. The kings were buried in pyramid tombs. Meroë developed a new script and began to write in the Meroitic language, which has yet to be fully deciphered.
Alexander the Great conquered Egypt in 332 BC. His empire was short lived and Egypt once again became a kingdom, under the Ptolemy Dynasty (306-30 BC). The Ptolemies were of Greek descent and in official records the people to the south are now referred to as Aethiopians: Greek for ‘burned faces’. This name, given to them by the first great historian Herodotus, was kept by the Romans, who took control over Egypt in 30 BC.
During the reign of the Ptolemies, Meroe prospered. The initial relationship with the Romans wasn’t that good. According to geographer Strabo (63 BC-24 AD), in 24 BC:
[the Aethiopians] attacked the Thebaïs and the garrison of the three cohorts at [Aswan], and by an unexpected onset took [Aswan] and Elephantine and Philae, and enslaved the inhabitants, and also pulled down the statues of Caesar.7
In 23 BC the Roman governor of Egypt, Petronius,
first compelled them to flee to Pselchis, an Ethiopian city, and sent ambassadors demanding the return of what they had taken, and the reasons why they had begun the war.
The Aethiopians didn’t respond, so in 22 BC Petronius attacked them at Pselchis. Defeating the Aethiopians there, he advanced to Premnis. He took the city and continued to the capital of the Aethiopians at Napata, which he sacked. After some more hostilities, the Aethiopians and the Romans came to a peace agreement, and trade between them flourished for several centuries.
Before turning to the Nuba, I want to stress once more that wherever Nubia is mentioned, we must remember that there are no historic sources from antiquity that use this name. For the word Nuba, it’s a different story.
2. The Nuba enter history Erastothenes (276 to 194 BC) is the first known author to mention a tribe called Nubae. We don’t have the original text, but Strabo was speaking on Erastothenes’ authority when he said:
[…] the parts on the left side of the course of the Nile, in Libya, are inhabited by Nubae, a large tribe, who, beginning at Meroë, extend as far as the bends of the river, and are not subject to the Aethiopians but are divided into several separate kingdoms.8
Erasthotenes is working his way downstream along the Nile, so he means that the Nubae lived between Meroe and Dongola.. It’s important that he makes a clear distinction between the Aethiopians and the Nubae.
I’ve already mentioned Claudius Ptolemaeus’ Geographica, that in c.150 AD places the Nubae south of Egypt. Contrary to what many people assume, he puts them east of the Nile. Ptolemaeus says the Nubae live to the far west of the Avalitae. Point is: Ptolemaeus is in this paragraph generally talking about the people east of the Nile, and he places the Avalitae to the African coast of the bay of Eden. Actually, Ptolemaeus mentions several tribes living between the Nubae and the river Nile.
Anyway: the Kings of Meroe no longer cared much for Lower Nubia., and neither did the Romans: Procopius of Caesarea (500-565 AD), relates how the Emperor Diocletian (245–312 AD) decided to withdraw Roman troops from Lower Nubia. Two nations to the south worried him though: the Blemmyae (Beja) to the southeast and the Nobatae to the southwest at a place called Premnis:
[…] so he persuaded these barbarians [the Nobatae] to move from their own habitations, and to settle along the River Nile […]. For in this way he thought that they would no longer harass the country about Pselchis at least, and that they would possess themselves of the land given them, as being their own, and would probably beat off the Blemmyae and the other barbarians. And since this pleased the Nobatae, they made the migration immediately, just as Diocletian directed them, and took possession of all the Roman cities and the land on both sides of the River beyond the city of Elephantine.9
Clearly the Nobatae are no subjects of Meroe. At this time, around 300 AD, Meroe’s power declined rapidly, weakened by the advance of people from both East and West.
In the east Axum was coming up. This Kingdom in what is today Ethiopia, reached the hight of its power under its first Christian ruler Ezana (330–356 AD). In an inscription found in Meroe, he announces:
I took the field against the Noba when the people of Noba revolted and did violence to the Mangurto; Hasa and Barya, and the Black Noba waged war on the Red Noba. I fought on the Takkaze [Atbara] at the ford of Kemalke. They fled, and I pursued the fugitives twenty-three days slaying them and capturing others and taking plunder; I burnt their towns, and seized their corn and their bronze and the dried meat and the images in their temples and destroyed the stocks of corn and cotton; and the enemy plunged into the river Seda [Blue Nile]. I arrived at the Kasu [Kush], slaying them and taking others prisoner at the junction of the rivers Seda and Takkaze. I dispatched troops up the Seda against their towns of Alwa and Daro; they slew and took prisoners and threw them into the water and they returned safe and sound. And I sent the troops down the Seda against the towns of straw of the Noba and Negues; the towns of masonry of the Kasu which the Noba had taken were Tabito, Fertoti; and they arrived at the territory of the Red Noba, and my people returned safe and sound after they had taken prisoners and slain others and had seized their plunder.10
Despite advances made by archaeologists and linguists in unravelling the complex situation around Meroe, it is still impossible to say what really happened. Apparently the Black Noba were the ones revolting; they attacked the neighbouring people, including the Red Noba and they took over some Kasu towns. But towns still held by the Kasu, were sacked just the same, and the Red Noba territory wasn’t spared by the Axumite armies either.
In the next few centuries three Christian Kingdoms emerged from the ruins of the Kushite Kingdom. The first one is Nobatia in Lower Nubia; there’s little doubt that Nobatia was established by the Nobatae mentioned by Procopius. The second one is Makuria, between the third cataract and somewhere between the fifth and the sixth; also known after its capital as Dongola, it could well have evolved from the part of the Kushite Kingdom that was taken over by the Black Noba. The third is Alodia to the South of Makuria; also known as Alwa, it could have been the remainder of the Kushite Kingdom. The rulers of these kingdoms were converted to Christianity by missionaries from different sects.
Nobatia was annexed by Makuria somewhere in the seventh century AD, probably just before the Muslim invasion of Egypt that commenced in 639 AD. The Muslims pushed southwards, but were halted by the army of the Makuria King, with whom they signed a treaty known as the Baqt, to which both parties seem to have kept for quite a long time. It wasn’t until the fourteenth century that Makuria collapsed, soon followed by Alodia, that was overtaken from the south by the newly emerging Funj empire.
The current state of understanding regarding the origin of the Nubians has been summarised by D. A. Welsby. After going through all the available information of historic sources and archeology, he concludes that:
In the sources we have a plethora of names which may refer to a single people, among them Nubae, Nobades, Nobates, Annoubades, Noba, Nouba and Red Noba. The significance of these names is unclear, they may be different names used loosely by our sources, Greek, Roman, Aksumite, Byzantine and Arab, for the same people, refer to sub-groups, or refer to different peoples altogether. Certainly archaeologically we cannot recognise different cultural assemblages to match each name, but we do not have a single culture covering the whole of the area occupied by these peoples. It is these people or peoples who coalesced into the three Nubian kingdoms first attested in the sixth century.
It is assumed that the Nubians gradually infiltrated the Kushite state, with or without the acquiescence of the Kushite rulers, and that, with the weakening of Kushite central authority, they were able to take over the reins of power and eclipse the Kushite ruling class. Another manifestation of this rise to prominence is the sudden appearance on the one hand of their traditional hand-made ceramics in the southern part of the middle Nile Valley, and the demise of the finer Kushite pottery as well as the apparent demise of the Kushite state and religious institutions, Kushite art, architecture, and literacy in the Meroitic language.
A graffito in Greek, carved on the wall of the former Temple of Isis at Philae some time after 537, reads ‘I, Theodosios, a Nubian’ (Nouba) and provides evidence for the name used by the Nubians to describe their ethnicity.11
3. The Nuba on the Nile and the Nuba in the Mountains. Of course it’s tempting to draw a line from the Nile south-eastward. Wouldn’t it be wonderful to provide the Nuba with an ancestry that goes well beyond the arrival of the Arab conquerors? Al right: the Nuba came to the Nile Kingdoms after the time of the Pharaohs, so we forget about Kush and the rule over Egypt… but three ancient Kingdoms that lasted from roughly 400 to 1600 BC wouldn’t be bad, would it?
Well, to begin with: for the majority of the Nuba tribes there is nothing to suggest a relationship with the Nuba on the Nile. No archaeological finds, no linguistic relationships. The only Nuba tribes that can be linked to the Nuba on the Nile, are those speaking one of the Nubian languages. In order to understand more about the relationship between the two groups, we need to look into linguistics classifications.
The basic idea behind linguistic classification is that people speaking the same language can drift apart, after which the language develops differently in the two groups. After so many hundreds of years this leads to the creation of two different languages. Linguists look at lexicological, grammatical and structural aspects of different languages to group them according to affiliation. With the help of standard word lists they can determine the level of proximity between two affiliated languages.
Researchers of the nineteenth century already acknowledged the linguistic affiliation between the Nuba on the Nile, several Nuba tribes in the Mountains and some scattered communities in Darfur.12 They all speak Nubian languages, classified with the Eastern Sudanic branch of the Nilo-Saharan language family. For a long time, the burning question was: did the Nuba in the Mountains come from the Nile, or did the Nuba on the Nile come from the west?
Despite the Arab conquest of Egypt and the ensuing Islamisation, the people along the Nile in Lower Nubia retained their original language, known as Nubian, or Nobiin for linguists. Closely related to Nobiin is Dongolawi, spoken up the river around Dongola in present day Sudan. Nobiin and Dongolawi probably drifted apart about 1100 years ago – give or take a century or two. Their languages, and specially Nobiin, are considered to be remnants of Old-Nubian, spoken in the Chrsitian Kingdoms of Nobatia, Dongola and Alwa.
Both Nobiin and Dongolawi are related to the so-called Hill Nubian languages of the Nuba Mountains and Darfur. The tribes that speak Hill-Nubian include those of Dilling, Kadaru and Ghulfan; Wali, Karko, Habila, Debri and some tribes more to the West like Tabag and Abu Jinuk.13 Looking at their geographical dispersion, you can imagine them coming from the northeast, some entering the Nuba Mountains from the side of Kadaru, some moving on westward around the Nyimang hills.
This combines well with events at the Nile in the 13th century AD. After centuries of stability, Bedouin tribes driven south by the Mameluks14 , started raiding Makuria. To the east the Beja were harassing Egypt and the Mameluks decided that if Makuria couldn’t keep the Beja in check, it was time to take matters in their own hands. The region was completely destabilised and we can imagine the people from Makuria fleeing south, until they found refuge in the Nuba Mountains. Makes sense, doesn’t it?
Well… to make a long story longer: linguistic evidence rules against it. Apart from Nobiin, Dongolawi and Hill-Nubian, there are two other Nubian language group: Birgid and Meidob, found further to the west scattered over Darfur (Meidob being extinct by now). Combining linguistic data from the different Nubian languages, J.H. Greenberg concluded that ‘to assume any split between Hill Nubian and Nile Nubian more recent than 2,500 years B.P. [before present] would be incorrect.’15
Of course we can’t give up a beautiful ancestry that easily: C. Herzog noticed that some Hill-Nubian languages have Christian words for days of the week, and other loan words too: the Nuba in Kordofan came from the Nile after all!16 But R. Thelwall wasn’t impressed:
We are very confident that Nobiin (and later Dongolawi) came to the Nile from a centre of dispersion in Darfur-Kordofan which they occupied and controlled for perhaps 4000 years. We know that there were Nubian speakers on the Nile at least as early as the 500s CE and probably much earlier. The fact that the Hill Nubian languages have words for the days of the week dating back to Christian Nubian indicates that these languages were in contact at least during the Christian Nubian period which probably covers 500 CE - 1400 CE. This does not necessarily mean that the Hill Nubians did more than expand from central Kordofan into the NubaMountains during the period of Nubian political dominance from Aswan to Kosti (at least). But given the location of the Hill Nubian speakers (Dair, Dilling, Karko etc) along the NE edge of the Mountains it appears that they were "incomers" settling among the existing Nyima and Temein groups who were there before them.17
It might be a disappointing conclusion for some Nuba, but by now no scholar would still argue that the Nuba in the Mountains are descendants of the Nubian Kingdoms. But let’s not linger with the Nubians any longer: there’s more to explore!
III. The origins of the Nuba
1. ‘We have always lived here.’ But if the Nuba didn’t come from the Nile, then were did they come from? Shall I just say that we have no idea where the Nuba people came from? It would not be far from the facts. S. F. Nadel puts it this way: We know little about the ancient history of the Nuba tribes. […] It often seems as if historical traditions had been cut short by the overpowering experience of the Mahdist regime (1881- 1898), which must have severed all links with a more distant […] past. In some tribes the tradition of past movements or previous places of settlement are summarized in one sentence: ‘we have always lived here.’ Other tribes have more definite and more illuminating traditions, which may even be supported by objective evidence. […] They shed no light on the question of the original home of the Nuba peoples, nor do they supply information as to when and how this area became the habitat of its large and varied population.18
There are simply neither written sources nor archaeological finds that can shed more light on what wanderings brought all the different Nuba tribes to their present place. Below we will see that for the groups that arrived most recently (within the past millennium or two) we have at least an idea of where they migrated from. But beyond that: nothing.
2. The classification of Nuba languages Maybe systematic archaeological research could shed more light on the origins of the Nuba people, but right now we will have to concentrate on linguistic findings. Linguistics is a complex field, not very sexy to be honest, but in many cases, it’s all we have. So we will first look at the classification of the different Nuba languages, and then move on to the question of who came to the Mountains at what time.
The Nuba Languages can be classified into members of two or perhaps three language families: Nilo-Saharan and Kordofanian. A. The Kordofanian languages consist of four groups located in the southern and eastern areas of the Nuba Mountains: Heiban, Talodi, Rashad and Katla. Kordofanian languages are considered a branch of the Niger-Congo family, which encompasses all Bantu languages, and in general most of the languages spoken in Sub-Saharan Africa. The only thing is: Kordofanian doesn’t resemble any of the other Niger-Congo languages closely. It constitutes a group of its own and geographically also, Kordofanian is isolated. In other words: we don’t have a clue as to how these Kordofanian speaking Nuba ended up in the Nuba Mountain. B. The Kadugli Group is located in the south east central fringe area near Kadugli. It was earlier classified as part of Kordofanian but is currently considered part of Nilo-Saharan. This is another large phylum: Dinka and Nuer are Nilo-Saharan languages, and so are many languages of Chad and Congo, as well as several languages spoken in Nigeria. C. The rest of the Nuba languages are classified as part of a major sub-group of Nilo-Saharan called Eastern Sudanic. They consist of Hill Nubian, Daju, Timein and Nyimang. The tribes speaking Eastern Sudanic languages can be found in the north western areas of the Mountains.
3. Linguistic settlement As we’ve just seen in the case of the Nubian speakers, shifts in related languages can tell us something about how long ago the speakers of those languages went their own way. Unfortunately this is not very exact, as Robin Thellwall explained to me: [the] reconstructions are based minimally on linguistic distance and extrapolated onto a fairly speculative time frame (glotto-chronology). Such a time framework is only a provisional and relative model to be tested against other evidence (archaeology, oral traditions, blood types, climate history, agricultural and animal husbandry terminology etc). This has not happened for the NubaMountains.19
However, for ‘The Linguistic Settlement of the Nuba in the Mountains’ Thelwall and Schadeberg20 analysed all the available data from the Nuba languages, and they came up with the following hypothesis regarding the relative chronology of the linguistic settlement of the Mountains: 1. Kordofanian language speakers came earlier than all the others 2. Nyimang; Temein and Kadugli language groups followed them 3. Daju speakers of Shatt and Liguri were next 4. Hill Nubian speakers – probably somewhere between 500 and 1400 AD 5. Daju speakers around Lagawa, who settled there relatively recently.
4. Kordofanian Heiban, Katla, Rashad and Talodi are the current names for the different groups of Kordofanian languages that cover the eastern half of the Nuba Mountains and a large part of the centre. Within the language group, differentiation has progressed much further than in the other Nuba language groups. According to R. Thelwall ‘the family has a time depth of a minimum of 6000 years.’21 This means that you would have to go back at least 6000 years in time to find all Kordofanian speakers speaking the same language. Kordofanian is classified with the Niger-Congo languages, and the nearest Niger-Congo speaking people would be found over the border of Sudan in southern Chad, in Central African Republic and in the Congo. The relationship between Kordofanian and the rest of Niger-Congo is not clear. The current subdivision of Kordofanian is as follows:
I. Heiban is spoken in a large area that has a geographical centre in the town of Heiban. It can be subdivided in an eastern section, with Kau and Werni in the south-east; a central section with Koalib, Laro, Heiban, Otoro, Shwai and Logol, and a western section with Moro and Tira.
For these tribes, memory doesn’t reach back far enough to retain any information about the origins of the people. We might learn that the Nuba of Kau, who became world-famous through the photographs of Leni Riefenstahl, have been living in their present location for at least 200 years. According to J. C. Faris: Oral traditions document that they were in place before the first Arab Movements into the area (c. 1800, see Cunnison, 1966: 3), and remains of surface habitation, genealogies, and linguistic separation from other of the Koalib-Moro language family all indicate an even greater time span.22 But what does this mean? It could be 500 years; 2000 years… we don’t know.
The Tira have an idea of where they came from, but their place of origin is still within the Nuba Mountains, and the time frame is also rather limited: According to their traditions, the Tira people […] came originally from a place called Rila, said to have been situated between Sheibun and Kadugli […]. They left for unknown reasons to settle on Tomboro hill, in the Moro massif. This tradition is corroborated by the Moro, who still remember that Tomboro […] was inhabited by Tira […] at the time when the Moro first settled in that region. Driven from Tombore by the Arabs, the Tira migrated east, a few groups to Tira Lomon, the rest to Tira el Akhdar. This final migration too place only three generations ago […]. When the fathers and grandfathers of the present generation arrived in Tira they found there already three Tira clans living, speaking the language of the immigrants and possessing an identical culture.23
In connection with Tira, it might be nice to include a story told by S. C. Dunn. Having researched gold washing practices in the Nuba Mountains, he writes that gold could be found mainly in Tira Mandi, with some small deposits in Dungur and Atoro. He also went to Sheibun, which was universally believed to be a place where gold was found… [At Jebel Shwai] Sheikh Naser, his son and several elders […] described to me roughly the position of the pits at Sheibun […]. An old Nuba who knew and had worked at Sheibun was provided as a guide; and I departed for Sheibun. During six hours of climbing around the group of little hills […] I had been led to a little hole on the hill side where some fine white clay had been extracted, to an old rain water pond, to the sites of the old villages and to some mounds of mountain debris. I then said that in my opinion there was not and never had been either gold or gold-washing at Sheibun; and the policemen with me said that was exactly what the Shawabna had told them privately the day before yesterday. [No one told me, because they] thought I would be angry.24 Sheibun did turn out to be the main market where the gold from Tira Mandi was sold though.
The Moro also have only a limited awareness of their history: The ancient home of the Moro people was on Lebu hill, in the western massif [of the Moro area]. Growing too numerous, the tribe [split: one] group remained in Lebu; the second moved to the northern edge of the massif […]; the third migrated to [Umm Dorein]. At that time the eastern massif was still uninhabited. Three or four generations ago the Moro began to settle there […]. This migration […] was prompted by the pressure of population and the search for new lanf, better protected from the Arab raiders.25
The Koalib have a tradition that says that: the northern Koalib lived originally in Kortala, side by side with [a tribe called] Nyemu. Arab (?) pressure drove the Nyemu to Jebel Dair, and some of the Koalib to their present habitat.26 In his 2003 Land Study, Simon Harragin writes: There is historical evidence that the Koalib were once resident on the plains much further west than their current position (Sagar, 1922: 138).27 Together with the Nyimang, the Koalib occupied the area around Dilling before Ghulfan and Kadaru drove a wedge between them. […] However, the historical claim mainly relies on oral history.28
II. Katla, which holds both Katla and Tima, is spoken in the hills southwest of Dilling. I didn’t even find any sources related to their origin.
III. Rashad can be divided into three languages: Tegali, spoken in the Tegali hills, the Rashad hills and the town of Rashad; Tagoi, spoken in Tagoi, Moreb and Tumale, and Tingal, also in the Tegali Hills.
The Nuba of the Tegali kingdom are basically the only ones to have a documented history that goes back beyond the 19th century. It doesn’t provide any clues however, to their origins. The founding stories of the kingdom speak of a ‘wise stranger’ coming to Tegali and starting a dynasty – a common theme in Sudanese traditions29 . I will gladly get back to the kingdom in the next chapter.
IV. Talodi is a group of languages mainly found in the southern part of the Mountains. It can be devided into Lafofa on the central Eliri range and some adjacent hills, and a large Talodi proper group that can be broken down into four groups: Talodi is spoken in Talodi town and on Jebel Talodi; Eliri on the southern Eliri range; Masakin, with Dagik and Ngile as two separate languages, is spoken in the Masakin hills; in Buram, Reikha and Daloka, and finally Tocho, branched into Acherun, Limun and Tocho.
The first Nuba people to hit the coffee tables in an impressive book by Leni Riefenstahl, were the Masakin Qisar, as she calls them. Reifenstahl stayed with the Masakin on several occasions, for weeks or months, but she doesn’t seem to have inquired after their origin. To her, they were ‘Menschen wie von einem anderen Stern’: people that might just as well have come from another star. And of course, in a sense, that is true. We don’t know where the Masakin came from, just as we don’t know where the other Nuba from the Talodi group originated.
5. Nyimang, Temein and Kadugli These three language groups are unique, like the Kordofanian languages, in the fact that they are only spoken in the Nuba Mountains. Judging from the large internal linguistic diversity within each group, the Nyimang, Temein and Kadugli speaking tribes might well have been in the Mountains for more than 2000 years.30 They seem to have come to the Nuba Mountains in tough times, with a lot of people on the move, losing touch with one another. In the words of Thellwal and Schadeberg: All three groups have a reasonably compact distribution within the NubaMountains: Kadugli along the southwestern edge, Temein to the West, and Nyimang to the north. This suggests outside origins and immigration from these respective directions. Assuming that equal internal diversity corresponds to some roughly consistent time depth we may argue that at this particular time in history conditions prevailed in the NubaMountains which resulted in population scattering and reduced inter-group communication. As it is more likely that such conditions originated outside the refuge area we may further speculate that migration to the NubaMountains and diversification occurred in close historical union.31
There is not an awful much to tell about the origins of each individual group, but let’s have a look at them anyway:
I. Nyimang is spoken by the people living on the seven hills of Nyimang: Salara, Tendiya, Kurmeti, Nitil, Fassu, Kelara and Kakara. It is also spoken by the people in the Mandal Hills and at Sobei, and by the more distantly related Afitti in Jebel Dair. The Nyimang call themselves Ama – ‘People’ – or ama mede kolat: people of the seven hills. Little is known about their origin, but S. F. Nadel reports that: the tribe [migrated] from a country ‘in the west’, ‘beyond Tima and Abu Ginuk’, whose name is given as Kugya.32 With R. C. Stevenson this becomes Kwuja or Kwija, which could be Kubja in the El Odaiya area. According to Stevenson the Nyimang: say that they settled first in the eastern hillsof the Nyimang range – Nitil, Kurmiti and Fassu – which they found unoccupied, and only later pushed westwards to Tendia and Salara. [At Salara] they claim to have found the Kunit (one of the Hill Nubian groups) there and to have driven them north after a severe struggle.33 The way the Hill Nubian tribes surround the Nyimang makes this scenario rather improbable. Stevenson remarks that it’s more likely that the Nyimang occupied a larger territory – stretching at least as far as Dilling, until the Hill Nubians arrived.
II. Temein is spoken in the Temein hills (north of Julud); the related Keiga and Teisei are found in Keiga Jirru (west of Debri) and Teisei um-Danab (north-east of Kadugli) respectively. There is nothing to tell about the origin of the Temein, except that: the people of Keiga Jirru claim to have migrated from Temein in the ‘distant past’, and this is supported by Temein tradition which relates that the people of both Keiga Jirru and Teisei-Umm-Danab migrated during a time of famine.34
III. Kadugli as a collective name is not really covering the large range of related languages that are grouped together here. Usually Kadugli is mentioned together with Katcha and Miri; they are so closely related that they could be considered dialects rather then separate languages. There are a number of Nuba languages put together with Kadugli-Miri-Katcha as ‘unclassified’ Nilo-Saharan languages: Tulishi, Kanga, Keiga, Korongo and Tumtum. They are clearly related to each other and to Kadugli-miri-Katcha, but the exact affiliation hasn’t been determined. R. C. Stevenson calls them the Kadugli-Krongo group: [‘the area covered by the group is very widespread; running along the south-west, its limits are Tullishi in the west and Kurondi in the south-east.] The most important hill ranges are Miri, Kadugli and Krongo, after two of which the group has been named.’ 35 In recent publications the group is referred to as the Kadu languages; I will use this term for convenience. The languages from north-west to south-east:
Tulishi is spoken around Jebel Tulishi, Lagawa, Kamdang and Dar El Kabira. Keiga at Jebel Demik (north of Miri): Ambong, Lubung and Tumuro Miri in Miri Bara, Miri Guwa, Luba etc.; all lie west of Kadugli. Kadugli is spoken in Kadugli and the in villages surrounding the town. Katcha is spoken in villages of Katcha, Tuna, Kafina, Dabakaya (Donga), Belanya, and Farouq, a short distance south of Kadugli and southeast of the Miri Hills. Kanga in Abu Sinun, Chiroro-Kursi, Kanga, Kufa-Lima, Krongo Abdalla Korongo towards the south in Tabanya, Toroji, Dar and Angolo; in Damaguto, Dimadragu and Dimodongo, and in Fama, Teis and Kua. Tumtum on Jebel Eliri: Karondi, Talassa and Tumtum
There is not much to tell about the origins of the people speaking one of the Kadu languages: no one knows where they came from. The linguistic and cultural affiliation among the different tribes is clear though. G. Baumann, who spent 18 months among the Miri people, doing research, says: The Miri form part of a larger cultural and linguistic unit known as the Kadugli-Krongo group. […] My own travels in the Kadugli-Krongo region produced a recurring impression of a common cultural heritage that encompassed not only linguistic affinity, but institutions, customs, verbal concepts, and sensitivities shared across boundaries. It is true that each of the Kadugli-Krongo communities has gone its own, different way in the processes of change over recent decades. [But] recent diversification has not as yet been able to obscure or supersede the shared cultural heritage of the neighbouring groups.36
Relationships between the communities are usually recognised by the people themselves, and some myths of origin exist, but only for movements within the Nuba Mountains. S. F. Nadel recorded for example that the people of Korongo: claim close cultural and linguistic affinity with [...] Tumtum on Jebel Talodi, Dere on Jebel Illiri, and three small hill groups in the west: Tesh, Fama and Shatt Safiya. [...] I have checked its truth in Talodi, Tesh and Fama. But the people of Shatt, as I discovered, have a different language and culture and are altogether of a different ethnic stock. The Korongo attribute this community of culture to the common origin of the today widely scattered groups. According to Korongo tradition, Jebel Tabuli, a large, now uninhabited, hill massif east of Korongo, was the ancient home of these different groups.37
Another example can be given for the people of Tulishi: The Tullishi people assert, with the rigidity of a dogma, that they have ‘always’ lived in their hills, unaffected by immigrations. […] The Tullishi people are fully aware of [the] affinity with Kamdang and Truj, but have no traditions of origin or past migrations which might attempt to explain this tribal kinship. They have such traditions with regard to the people of Miri (as also of Jebel Damik and Keiga), with whom they claim a common, or closely similar, language, and common clans. [They lived closely together once, but they split up after a dispute.] The Miri people, we may add, share the tradition of the ancient kinship of the two tribes.38 This is confirmed by G. Baumann, who writes: The mythical link with Tulishi is quite universally recalled […]. Formerly, the Tulishi people lived here on top of a hill called Igyol. [They did something wrong] so they migrated to present home. 39
And that’s it as far as these the Nyimang, the Temein and the Kadugli language speaking Nuba are concerned.
6. Hill Nubian As discussed at length above, the Hill Nubian speaking tribes came to the Mountains from the North, probably before 1400 AD. The different languages are classified as follows:
Ghulfan and Kadaru are grouped together. Ghulfan is spoken in Ghulfan Kurgul and Ghulfan Morung; Kadaru in the hill communites of Kadaru, Kururu, Kafir, Kurtala, Dabatna and Kuldaji. Dilling is spoken in the town and the surrounding villages Dair, in the western and southern parts of Jebel Dair Karko in the Karko Hills and Dulman; maybe also Abu Jinik and Tabaq. Wali in the Wali Hills
Thelwall and Schadeberg can’t say more as to why or when exactly the Hill Nubians migrated south: Whether this occurred due to pressure from Arab nomads as Arkell40 proposes, or whether an earlier date should be assumed is not clear. The relative closeness of the Hi1l Nubian dialects to each other does not suggest the presence of isolated Nubian communities in these hills for several millennia.41 It was probably a gradual process. R. C. Stevenson writes: Nubian speech was brought to the northern NubaMountains by tribal movements accelerated by the Arab influx during the past few centuries. In Rüppell’s time (mid 1820s) it was still spoken on the plains south of El Obeid.42
The most detailed account of how some of the Hill Nubians came to the Nuba Mountains is given by S. F. Nadel: The Warke, or Dilling people, have preserved very clear traditions of their origin and past history. Originally, these traditions state, the tribe was living at Abdel Baka in the Ghadayat, under the ‘Sultans’ of that Kingdom, The Ghadayat are said to have been of Fung origin, and ethnically related to the Warke. Later Arab attacks forced the latter to emigrate. They moved first to Boti (now known as Sungikai) , then to Shirma, or Jebel Tukuma (ten miles east of Dilling), and finally to Dilling. The Ghadayat, in their old home, are said to have become ‘like Arabs’, while the Warke ‘became Nuba’. The ancient link, however, survived in the political sphere; the Dilling people remained tributary to the Sultans of Abdel Baka and still recognize, symbolically, their suzerainty […] The genealogy of Dilling chiefs mentions ten who already resided in Dilling. Their relationship is not remembered, but we may assume that their reign embraces a period of no less, and probably more, than 100 years. The Dilling know of their close cultural and linguistic links with Kaduru and Ghulfan [...]. The most widely accepted tradition is this: that the people of Kaduru have lived together with the Warke in the Ghadayat, but later separated; that the Ghulfan groups are of Fung origin, but unknown home; and that a small, isolated group, akin to Dilling in language and culture, and living today on Jebel Tabak in Western Kordofan, had shared with the Warke their old home on Jebel Takuna, but afterwards migrated to its present habitat.43
7. The Daju speaking tribes The Daju speaking tribes came to the Nuba Mountains from the west, from a Daju Kingdom that we know conveniently little about. The Kingdom was based, as early perhaps as 1200 AD, in Jebel Marrah, a rain-fed mountain range in an otherwise arid country. The Daju controlled the area between southern Jebel Marra and the western edges of the Nuba Mountains. They were displaced by the Tunjur at the end of the fourteenth century, and left no records besides a list of kings that ends with King Kasi Furogé. The Daju were scattered by the Tunjur and we find them back in some isolated pockets across a wide area of Chad and Sudan, in the regions of Kordofan, Darfur, and Wadai.
Linguistically things don’t seem to be too complicated: following R.C. Stevenson44 we differentiate between Eastern and Western Daju. The Eastern Daju speakers all live in the Nuba Mountains. They are the Shatt in the Shatt Hills south-west of Kadugli (Shatt Damam, Shatt Safaia and Shat Tebeldia), and Liguri and Soburi in the hills north-east of the city. The Western Daju are more scattered. In Chad we find the Mongo in Dar Daju and the Sila in Dar Sila. In Sudan the Nyala around Nyala in Darfur; the Beigo (extinct) in southern Darfur; and the Njalgulgule in southern Sudan on the Sopo River. Also belonging to the Western Daju are the Daju living near Lagawa. and that brings us back to the Nuba Mountains.
Looking at the linguistic data, Robin Thelwall is convinced that the Eastern Daju languages separated from the others long ago, perhaps as much as 2000 years. The Shatt and Liguri have been in the Mountains much longer than the Lagawa, and because of the considerable linguistic distance between the Shatt and the Liguri, it is likely that their migration into the Nuba Mountains predates not only the Lagawa, but also the Nubian arrival in this area45 .
So linguistically it seems clear. Historically it’s a bit hazy though. There is no doubt that 250 years ago there were two people, Daju and Shatt, living in the area of Muglad west of the Nuba Mountains. K. D. D. Henderson, one of the first British district commissioners of Western Kordofan District, says the Daju and Shatt arrived there from Darfur around 1710.46 According to Ian Cunnison they were driven away by the Messyria: When [the Messeria Homr] reached where they are now, they found two pagan tribes: the Shatt and Daju in Muglad [Deinga]. Homr therefore drove the two tribes out of the area. Shatt escaped further south where they met the Ngok Dinka and were further driven west [...]. The Daju escaped [east] and settled among the Nuba.47
Henderson says the Messeria Baggara came to Muglad around the decade of 1765-1775,48 so we have a pretty exact indication of when the Daju came to Lagawa. But what about the Shatt? They went south until they met the Ngok Dinka and were driven west? Please, don’t let the name confuse you: these are not the Shatt in the Nuba Hills. The Ethnologue: Languages of the World explains: 'Caning' is their own name for themselves. 'Shatt' is applied by Arabic speakers to inhabitants of the Kordofan Hills. It means 'dispersed', 'scattered', and is applied to various groups. Distinct from Shatt (Thuri) in the Lwo group, or the Shatt dialect of Mundu.49 The last two groups are living in South Sudan, so that makes sense. It doesn’t explain however why Watkiss Lloyd, the first Governor of Kordofan, would report: The natives of [Shat el Safia, and Shat el Damman] say they formerly occupied the whole of Dar Homr, and this is confirmed by the Homr Arabs, who say there is still a small settlement of the same tribe at a place they call Shat, a few miles over our border.50 We must asume that he just listened to the wrong natives. And what to make of the reconstruction of the Daju and Shatt migration that R.C. Stevenson distilled from K.D.D. Henderson’s data? In his account, the Daju and the Shatt were migrating east together, reaching Muglad around 1710 and moving sort of leisurely towards the area west of Lagawa in the following decennia. From there some of them continued to Liguri and Soburi while others (the Shatt) settled south of Kadugli.51 Stevenson was a distinguished linguist; but somehow he didn’t realise that the differences between the Daju and the Shatt were too big for them to have come to the Nuba Mountains together.
And this, for now, brings me to the end of the investigation into the origins of the Nuba. The results can’t be called glorious, can they? (But the struggle is heroic.) In the next chapter we will focus on more substantial stories of the period before the Mahdiya.
History, part II History, part III
NOTES
1. Interviewed by N.op ‘t Ende; London, February 12 and 13, 2001 2. A.C. Stevenson: The Nuba People of Kordofan Province, 1984, pp. 3. 3. A.H. Keane already dismissed it in 1885: Ethnology of Egyptian Sudan; The Journal of the Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol. 14 (1885), pp. 101. 4. A. J. Arkell: A History of the Sudan to A.D. 1821, 1955. 5. S.F. Nadel: The Nuba, an anthropological study of the hill tribes in Kordofan, 1947, pp. 2. 6. Claudius Ptolemy: Geography IV, ch.7. The strangest thing is that he locates the Nubae east of the Nile while the European maps invariably put Nubia to the west of the river. 7. Strabo: Geographica, book XVII;54 8. Strabo: Geographica, book XVII;2 9. Procopius: History of the Wars, c. 550 CE: Book I;19 10. Abbreviated text of the Ezana inscription 11. D. A. Welsby: The Medieval Kingdoms of Nubia, 2002. 12. A. H. Keane for example: opus cit. 13. R. C. Stevenson: The Nuba People of Kordofan Province, 1984 14. Slave soldiers of the Ayyubid rulers who rose to high esteem and then rid themselves of their masters, founding the Mameluk Empire that dominated the Middle East for two centuries. 15. J. H. Greenberg: The Languages of Africa, 1963; Int. journal of American linguistics, 29, 1, part 2. 16. R. Herzog: Die Nubier, I957. 17. R. Thelwall: Nuba Languages and History: Who is related to who in and outside of the Nuba Mountains and did they come from anywhere else?; Nuba Vision, Volume 1, Issue 3, February 2002. 18. S.F. Nadel: The Nuba, an anthropological study of the hill tribes in Kordofan, 1947, pp. 4-5. 19. R. Thelwall, private correspondence. 20. R. Thelwall and T. C. Schadeberg: The Linguistic Settlement of the Nuba Mountains; Sprache und Geschichte in Afrika 5 (1983) 219-231 21. R. Thelwall: Nuba Languages and History […]; Nuba Vision, Volume 1, Issue 3, February 2002. 22.J. C. Faris: Nuba Personal Art, 1972, pp. 14. 23. S.F. Nadel: The Nuba, an anthropological study of the hill tribes in Kordofan, 1947, pp. 176-177. 24. S. C. Dunn: Native Gold Washings in the Nuba Mountains Province; Sudan Notes and Records, VoL IV. No. 3, October 1921, pp. 143-144. 25. S.F. Nadel: The Nuba, an anthropological study of the hill tribes in Kordofan, 1947, pp. 178 26. Idem, pp. 358. 27. J. W. Sagar: Notes on the History, Religion and Customs of the Nuba; Sudan Notes and records 5 (1922), pp. 137 - 156. 28. S. Harragin: Nuba Mountains Land and Natural Resources Study; Part I – Land Study, 2003. 29. J. J. Ewald: Experience and Speculation: History and Founding Stories in the Kingdom of Tagali, 1780- 1935; the International Journal of African Historical Studies, Vol 18, No. 2 (1985), pp.265-287. 30. R. Thelwall: Nuba Languages and History […]; Nuba Vision, Volume 1, Issue 3, February 2002. 31. R. Thelwall and T. C. Schadeberg: The Linguistic Settlement of the Nuba Mountains; Sprache und Geschichte in Afrika 5 (1983) 219-231 32. S.F. Nadel: The Nuba, an anthropological study of the hill tribes in Kordofan, 1947, pp. 362. 33. R. C. Stevenson: The Nuba People of Kordofan Province, 1984, pp. 85. 34. Idem, pp. 122. 35. R. C. Stevenson: A Survey of the Phonetics and Grammatical Structure of the Nuba Mountains Languages, with Particular Reference to Otoro, Katcha and Nyimang; Africa und Übersee 40 (1956), pp. 103. 36. G. Baumann: National Integration and Local Integrity, the Miri of the Nuba Mountains in the Sudan, 1987, pp. 22-24. 37. S.F. Nadel: The Nuba, an anthropological study of the hill tribes in Kordofan, 1947, pp. 368. 38. Idem, pp. 319. 39. G. Baumann: opus cit., pp. 140 40. A. J. Arkell: A History of the Sudan from the Earliest Times to 1821, 1955. 41. R. Thelwall and T. C. Schadeberg: The Linguistic Settlement of the Nuba Mountains; Sprache und Geschichte in Afrika 5 (1983), pp. 219-231 42. R. C. Stevenson: Linguistic Research in the Nuba Mountains; Sudan Notes and Records 45 (1963), pp. 79-102. 43. S. F. Nadel: the Nuba, an anthropological study of the Hill Tribes in Kordofan, 1947. 44. R. C. Stevenson: A survey of the phonetics and grammatical structure of the Nuba Mountains languages, with particular reference to Otoro, Katcha and Nyimang; Afrika und Übersee 40, 1956-7 45. R. Thelwall: Nuba Languages and History […]; Nuba Vision, Volume 1, Issue 3, February 2002. 46. K. D. D. Henderson: The Migration of the Messiria into South West Kordofan; Sudan Notes & Records 22/1, 1939 47. I. Cunnison: The Baggara Arabs: Power and Lineage in the Sudanese Nomadic Tribe, 1966 48. Idem, pp. 54 49. Gordon, Raymond G., Jr. (ed.), 2005. Ethnologue: Languages of the World, Fifteenth edition. Dallas, Tex.: SIL International. Online version: http://www.ethnologue.com/. 50. Watkiss Lloyd: Notes on Kordofan Province; The Geographical Journal, Vol. 35, No. 3 (Mar. 1910) pp. 249 - 267 51. R. C. Stevenson: The Nuba People of Kordofan Province, 1984, pp. 35-37
This text was written by the designer of the homepage, Nanne op 't Ende. The Nuba Mountains Homepage was made by Nanne op 't Ende. You can contact me here.
All of this information is unnecessary, and I won't bother reading it. I asked for more specificity to my question, and what you posted is even more out there. None of that information is tied to my questions, in traditional ES format.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
It surprises me that ES veterans like Djehuty and Zaharan haven't embraced the data posted here with the same enthousiasm as me, and instead, actually partake in perpetuating the myth that is subscribed to by the likes of Yurco, that holds that Nile Valley populations (ought to) have the same hair as stereotyped Africans, when they obviously don't.
The bar should be raised; Somali's and Ethiopians aren't standalone exceptions, and the scientifically advocated range of African cross section indices should be raised from 0 - 60% to at least 65% (as population averages), and including with it wavy and occasional straight hair.
^^My position has been and remains that Africans are the most diverse people in the world, and that hair variety is merely another indicator of that diversity.
Tropical Africans can have straight, wavy, loose, curly or "kinky" hair as part of their BUILT-IN indigenous diversity, without needing any "race mix" from so-called "Eurasians." WHether it be skin color, gene variation, dental diversity, nose diversity, cranial diversity, or general phenotype, tropical Africans are the originals and have it all, and/or the capability of creating it all over time. If nukes wiped out humanity and left say only 10,000 tropical Africans, they can repopulate the earth, and with enough time and migration, reproduce all that we have now.
So I see "kinky" hair in the Nile Valley as just another routine slice of built-in NATIVE diversity. It is not and was never "foreign." It is part of the native range of variation. This is the crucial point EUrocentrics, and the idiotic trolls seek to deny so desperately. They are desperate because African diversity puts a fatal spike in their race hierarchy models and ideology, a killing spike driven into the heart of their racial project, which is to show that whites are so-called "role models" of human perfection, goodness and virtue
But when the hard data is examined, their precious little "race" project falls apart, and the "role models" all are supposed to bow down to are revealed as nothing special- just another human group riddled with corruption, filth and violence.
I would agree with you that the bar should be raised and that Somalians or Ethiopians are nothing standalone. It is from eastern Africa that humanity began its global expansion, including expansion within Africa. That area is nothing standalone- to the contrary it is at the very heart of tropical African diversity.
They can deny all they want, but their denials are ultimately irrelevant to the bare facts on the ground.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: All of this information is unnecessary, and I won't bother reading it. I asked for more specificity to my question, and what you posted is even more out there. None of that information is tied to my questions, in traditional ES format.
Yeah right! I mean seriously Kenndo, what does all of that stuff have to do with the topic of this thread??
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by kenndo: Let's keep in mind that lower nubia before the meroitic period ended,was mostly red noba,not kushites.
There were BLEMMYES too in lower nubia. kushites from ever book i read had kinky hair while red noba and other nubians in lower nubia had varied hair forms and african features more closer to upper egyptians,of course they were african features,so euronuts lose either way.
It seems these hair studies or lot of studies dealing with head shapes etc is focus more on lower nubia.
IF you look at these studies of the meroitic period and see the location of what parts of nubia is the focus in these studies is lower nubia.
Every study i see a euronut trys to make a point and make nubians non- black is from lower nubia AND THEY TRY to say this was all nubia,and it's clear it's not.
Lower nubia is a abit of a different case then the rest of nubia,so we must be careful not to have lower nubia represent all of nubia,because it does not.
Let's make this simple and cut the bullcrap.
It's clear that kushites of upper and southern nubia had kinky hair and on average round faces,EXAMPLE TAHARQA A KUSHITE,CASE CLOSED.
So i will stick TO the facts that is well known FROM books from well known good scholars not the internet.
Greeks and others make this very clear while lower nubia before the kushite invasions had types more closer to blacks of upper egypt.
Modern scholars makes very this clear too.
In fact most kushites lived in southern nubia closer to central sudan.
MORE studies need to be done there but lower nubia is just easier to get to or study more so right now and historians will tell you that.
Lower nubia was conquered many more times then any other place in nubia as well if you get my point.
It's clear lower nubia had a population that was much smaller then other regions of nubia and it was more varied with different populations. Just saying.
Yes, ever since Reisner's findings I've noticed a lot of old sources I've read on Nubia love to make a distinction between lower Nubia and upper Nubia with the former being closely related to Egyptians and thus 'caucasoid' while the latter is 'negroid'. In fact I remember years ago reading a passage from Rex Keating's book Nubian Twilight where he describes tribute in the form of cattle and slaves from Nubia. From Lower Nubia these were slaves but from Upper Nubia these were 'negro' slaves. LOL
Anyway as far as features go, Lower Nubians even in recent literature are stereotyped as being taller and darker than even Upper Egyptians but with more pronounced "caucasian" features like narrower noses and thinner lips. I haven't read any info on hair texture, but we all know that epipaleolithic Nubians of the same area looked much different with more robust facial features but I wonder if the hair was the same as in wavy or loose.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: All of this information is unnecessary, and I won't bother reading it. I asked for more specificity to my question, and what you posted is even more out there. None of that information is tied to my questions, in traditional ES format.
I want to post some info about the noba and nubia for a while now here because it's always brought up that nubians did not live in the noba hills or in darfur or central sudan,so i just remind myself about that,so instead of creating a new thread i just posted here. maybe i should create a thread about this.read the whole thing,this is good info about the noba and nuba anyway.
EVERY TIME i come TO THIS FORUM there is always someone that says nubians and nuba are different and i kept saying some are some are not,so i am not saying you are saying this but i just put the info out just in case because i have a funny feeling it will come up again and i keep repeating myself.
The info about the noba living in lower nubia i posted above.
My point was that noba live in lower nubia and were mostly the main group before kush fell in lower nubia,at least a large part of the the lower nubian population before 350 a.d.
The books kingdom of kush explains this and quote and The destruction of Black civilization. when i read the book that what i get out of it.
I COULD BE WRONG and if so okay,but to me the books i have read always mentions that the population or at least a large part of it was noba and most were called red noba by roman historians by 350 a.d.
when a new nubian kingdom is set up it seem the noba at least in lower nubia have become the larger group,of course the kushites still had the major power there until 350 a.d.
The kushites and the noba lived in lower nubia so my my point is that many of the bodies and hair studied are not kushites if you break the nubian population down in lower nubia.
I JUST READ AGAIN many kushites retreat back to upper nubia before kush fell.
Has for what kushites look like I WAS talking more so about the later kushites not those of kerma.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
ONE point i have to make it seems when the term meriotic population is used i do not believe they are just talking about kushites but other nubians in the nile valley too.every study i tend to see says the nubians since we all know nubians vary.THey are all lump in together has meriotic AND I HAVE NO PROBLEM if that's the case.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Let's keep in mind that lower nubia before the meroitic period ended,was mostly red noba,not kushites.
According to what source?
THE DESTRUCTION OF BLACK civilization by chancellor williams.
read page 139.
This is one of the main books that talk about the red noba was a large or the major group by 350 a.d. so if that's the case they were in lower nubia before kush fell.I am going mainly by this info i have read in this book.
Let me make THIS point here,alot of my info about kush i got from this book, THE MORE UPDATE BOOKS,the two kingdom of kush books and a few african and afro-centric scholars.
SO WHEN SOMEONE ASK ME about where i get the info from i tell them about these books mostly .
I DO NOT TRUST to many other BOOKS ON THIS SUBJECT. I will leave it at that.
and
quote:It's clear that kushites of upper and southern nubia had kinky hair and on average round faces,EXAMPLE TAHARQA A KUSHITE,CASE CLOSED.
Would the facial features of Kermites agree with this discription?
I BELIEVE the kerma population basically looked like the later kushite population,or at least closer looking to southern nubians then lower nubians like the a- group.
Head of a Nubian. Faience, Kerma, Cemetery, Eastern Deffufa (K II), ...
Harvard University–Boston Museum of Fine Arts Expedition: 20.1305a
This faience head clearly represents a Nubian with tightly curled hair. It was excavated at Kerma by George A. Reisner, who thought it was originally an inlay. Since faience at Kerma could have been locally manufactured or have come from Egypt, it is not certain whether this head represents an Egyptian or a Nubian perspective.
Of course the napatan/meriotic population that started the napatan period came from southern nubia.david o-conner in his book ancient nubia has some details about this.
THIS WAS A NEW WAVE of kushites that spread and took over upper nubia and later lower nubia.
has you know egypt never conqured the southern nubia and southern nubia was not called kush in new kingdom times,that was upper nubia,later kush won it's freedom and later around 900 b.c. waves of southern nubians took over and created the new kingdom of kush and they included in this new kush kingdom southern nubia for the first time.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Yes, ever since Reisner's findings I've noticed a lot of old sources I've read on Nubia love to make a distinction between lower Nubia and upper Nubia with the former being closely related to Egyptians and thus 'caucasoid' while the latter is 'negroid'. In fact I remember years ago reading a passage from Rex Keating's book Nubian Twilight where he describes tribute in the form of cattle and slaves from Nubia. From Lower Nubia these were slaves but from Upper Nubia these were 'negro' slaves. LOL
Anyway as far as features go, Lower Nubians even in recent literature are stereotyped as being taller and darker than even Upper Egyptians but with more pronounced "caucasian" features like narrower noses and thinner lips.
That's because the Euronuts realize deep down that there would have to be genetic blending between the Egyptians and Nubians, so they want to move the point where K-zoids grade into Black people somewhere in Lower Nubia in order to free their Egyptians of as much Black ancestry as possible.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Suffice to say it hasn't stopped with Lower Nubians but crazy cacasoidizing trend reached as far south as Tanzania!
Posted by Sahel (Siptah) (Member # 17601) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: What do you mean ''how do they designate the term ''wavy and curly''? The same way you would when you know what the terms mean according to their definition, and apply them in the real world. I find it interesting that both you and Dana question their ability to designate wavy, but not their ability to designate peppercorn hair. Surely, someone incapable of diagnosing the former, cannot be trusted diagnosing the latter, yet attention is focused on wavy, why?
Peppercorn as a designation is more precise as compared to "wavy and curly."
quote:By definition it is impossible for someone to have kinky, yet wavy long and flowing hair.
Why, and who's definition are you going by; your own or the scientists? As stated by the scientists some samples had hair clearly defined as crispy curled (p118) and even frizzy (p125), all terms used to additionally describe the hair of black peoples yet simply because these samples show hair which gravitate away from samples showing peppercorn hair they are not illustrated as "typically negro."
quote:Don't let that stop you from posting examples though, I'd appreciate pics of African people with kinky hair whose hair form matches your description.
With regard to your request:
quote:
These girls are a good case in point. Their hair is kinky, long, and wavy textured.
quote:Yes, and that isn't the only questionable term they've been sprinkling around. However, how that effects the hair descriptons being made, I have yet to see.
It doesn't, although the usage of the word "typical" together with the racial label "negro" when describing hair is unnecessary if you ask me. I don't see them interjecting non "negro" racial labels and together applying the word "typical" in report of their other samples.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Peppercorn as a designation is more precise as compared to "wavy and curly."
No, it isn’t. Can you provide the meaning of each of the words?
quote:Why, and who's definition are you going by; your own or the scientists?
Because kinky hair means tightly curled, and wavy hair doesn’t spiral in a circular manner, at all. You’ve already made your mind up about a deviation between ''my'' definition of the word, and how the scientists have used it. What evidence do you have for this, and what are other definitions of wavy hair, for them to follow other than the one used by anyone with basic knowledge of hair form?
quote:As stated by the scientists some samples had hair clearly defined as crispy curled (p118) and even frizzy (p125), all terms used to additionally describe the hair of black peoples
Yes, and if you notice, the descriptions add further weight to the idea that they were not applied by someone not versed in the basics of hair. The descriptions can be added to a spectrum of hair forms that go from peppercorn to straight, and covering (mostly) everything within it. They also correctly make distinctions between loosely curled and tightly curled, and thereby, correctly identiying both hair forms as continuous, under the curly header.
quote:With regard to your request:
The first two pics don’t show kinky hair, and appear to fall in between wavy and straight. Difficult to tell whether some of it is loosely curled or wavy because their hair is braided, stretched and flattened on their scalp. The girl in the last picture definitely has kinky hair, no indication of loosely curled hair whatsoever, let alone wavy hair. I don’t mean to be rude, but after posting the bottom pic, I wonder what makes you suspect the authors definition of the descriptions may need polishing, and not your own.
quote:It doesn't, although the usage of the word "typical" together with the racial label "negro" when describing hair is unnecessary if you ask me. I don't see them interjecting non "negro" racial labels and together applying the word "typical" in report of their other samples.
The reports often mention ''typical Nubian'', and ''typical Egyptian'' in reference to the impression imparted by the crania, so to be fair, they were applying ''typical'' to things other than what they considered ''negro''. But those descriptions are all equally dubious and oudated.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ I concur with everything above.
In regards to the lady in the last picture, although it's not as clear because of the small size it appears that she has curly hair though it looks like it may have been altered by something like a hot iron.
By the way, the look reminds me of the sort of wigs worn by ancient Egyptian women.
LOL @ the white woman playing the part.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^There is definitely a semblance there.
I wonder if their wigs really looked like that, or whether it changed in some way shape or form throughout time. I can't imagine that something as big, bulky and messy as that would've been seen as attractive, and similar wigs in their art look much more attractive for some reason (minus the crown):
We know they also made other wigs, think Maherpri, and those look much more realistic, and like what we today would call a non-recreational wig. The wig above and the wig of the Amun priest you've posted earlier look more like something thats a part of costume, but hey, thats just my opinion.
Posted by Sahel (Siptah) (Member # 17601) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: No, it isn’t. Can you provide the meaning of each of the words?
Why should my definition of each words be provided?
"Wavy" as a meaning can have many interpretations. The same cannot be said for peppercorn hair, a label marked by clear expression and detail.
quote:Because kinky hair means tightly curled, and wavy hair doesn’t spiral in a circular manner, at all. You’ve already made your mind up about a deviation between ''my'' definition of the word, and how the scientists have used it. What evidence do you have for this, and what are other definitions of wavy hair, for them to follow other than the one used by anyone with basic knowledge of hair form?
If kinky hair can be so tightly curled in a manner to give a peppercorn appearance for what reason can the same not be said to the contrary > kinks are looser in a manner for a wavy appearance? I was basing my presumption on whatever way you or the scientists define the words. When looking at the survey, descriptions of the hair structure can be generally understood within the range, still i would say their description of just wavy for instance is open to more than one interpretation. Under the wavy header it would great if the authors could have touched more on these variances: e.g.; "moderately" -to- "very" wavy as they did when describing other hair forms e.g. "crispy" -to- "loosely" curly et al.
quote:The first two pics don’t show kinky hair, and appear to fall in between wavy and straight. Difficult to tell whether some of it is loosely curled or wavy because their hair is braided, stretched and flattened on their scalp.
Aside from their hair being fashionably done, you can observe kinky strands of hair sticking out from the other part of girl's hair being stretched. For this reason their hair is naturally kinky and the straightness of their hair is unnatural. Constant tending to their hair in such a fashion has achieved a state you view not of the kinky variety but wavy and straight.
quote:The girl in the last picture definitely has kinky hair, no indication of loosely curled hair whatsoever, let alone wavy hair. I don’t mean to be rude, but after posting the bottom pic, I wonder what makes you suspect the authors definition of the descriptions may need polishing, and not your own.
Leastwise, we both agree on her hair being kinky. And in my opinion i would go on further to say her hair is long, flowing and even qualifies as wavy in its own right as i mentioned earlier. I hope i'm also not coming off as attacking you personally just offering an opinion. Your survey is useful. If only there were pics.
Posted by Sahel (Siptah) (Member # 17601) on :
@ Djehuti,
Supposing it was natural or altered, I don't see how any of that is important. It's her hair. It's long, flowing, wavy and most importantly kinky in texture.
quote:In regards to the lady in the last picture, although it's not as clear because of the small size it appears that she has curly hair though it looks like it may have been altered by something like a hot iron.
I couldn't help but notice how you described her hair as curly. and being reminiscent of kmtian / egyptic hairstyles. Interesting. Makes me wonder if some of the samples in the survey had hair in a similar manner as the ladys hair in the pic.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Why should my definition of each words be provided?
"Wavy" as a meaning can have many interpretations. The same cannot be said for peppercorn hair, a label marked by clear expression and detail.
quote:If kinky hair can be so tightly curled in a manner to give a peppercorn appearance for what reason can the same not be said to the contrary > kinks are looser in a manner for a wavy appearance?
Because you’d be venturing outside of the definition of kinky hair: KINKY 1. Slang given to unusual, abnormal, or deviant sexual practices 2. Informal exhibiting unusual idiosyncrasies of personality; quirky; eccentric 3. Informal attractive or provocative in a bizarre way kinky clothes 4. tangled or tightly looped, as a wire or rope 5. tightly curled, as hair
quote:I was basing my presumption on whatever way you or the scientists define the words. When looking at the survey, descriptions of the hair structure can be generally understood within the range, still i would say their description of just wavy for instance is open to more than one interpretation. Under the wavy header it would great if the authors could have touched more on these variances: e.g.; "moderately" -to- "very" wavy as they did when describing other hair forms e.g. "crispy" -to- "loosely" curly et al.
Wavy hair form has more of a distinct pattern. Hair either zig zags in an ’’S’’ shape (wavy), coils in a helix shape (loose curly or tight curly) or requires very long length to notice a curve (curved or straight hair).
quote:Aside from their hair being fashionably done, you can observe kinky strands of hair sticking out from the other part of girl's hair being stretched.
Already commented on those particular hairs, and from what’s observable from behind my screen they’re are tiny S shaped (wavy) patterns, not helix patterns. This could be because their hair is streched, which if true, would disqualify their hair from being wavy. The overal picture one gets though, is that stretching has nothing to do with some of their scalp region hair looking S shaped.
quote:For this reason their hair is naturally kinky and the straightness of their hair is unnatural. Constant tending to their hair in such a fashion has achieved a state you view not of the kinky variety but wavy and straight.
There is absolutely no ounce of truth to the above. African American women tend to their hair all the time, spend more money on hair products than most Euro-American women. Nowhere will you find their hair achieving an unnatural straight state, because of ’’constant tending’’. Your constant use of kinky to refer to their hair, or to wavy hair, shows you don’t really know what that term means. Their hair is not kinky, it is obviously no different from hair of many eurasians.
quote:Leastwise, we both agree on her hair being kinky. And in my opinion i would go on further to say her hair is long, flowing and even qualifies as wavy in its own right as i mentioned earlier. I hope i'm also not coming off as attacking you personally just offering an opinion. Your survey is useful. If only there were pics.
You don’t come off as attacking, but I am puzzled as to why you would question the descriptions, if you don’t really know what the descriptions mean?
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sahel (Siptah):
what country are these girls from and what is the source of the photo? can it be assumed that they have naturally wavy straight hair that hangs down and has been braided or that they have afro-kinky hair that has been straightened or that they are purely African in ancestry?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ ah STFU since you apparently did not comprehend any of the info in the first page.
quote:Originally posted by Sahel (Siptah): @ Djehuti,
Supposing it was natural or altered, I don't see how any of that is important. It's her hair. It's long, flowing, wavy and most importantly kinky in texture.
Again I don't know about it being necessarily kinky but yes it is her hair. This also makes me wonder if Egyptian women (at least those who didn't shave) did things to alter their hair like using some sort of ancient version of hot irons.
quote:I couldn't help but notice how you described her hair as curly. and being reminiscent of kmtian / egyptic hairstyles. Interesting. Makes me wonder if some of the samples in the survey had hair in a similar manner as the lady's hair in the pic.
I used 'curly' to describe it because that is what it is.
^ If you look closely at left of the picture-- the girl's right side-- you can see a couple of strands that are loose curls. This same exact hair texture can be seen on these banqueting ladies.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: There is definitely a semblance there.
I wonder if their wigs really looked like that, or whether it changed in some way shape or form throughout time. I can't imagine that something as big, bulky and messy as that would've been seen as attractive, and similar wigs in their art look much more attractive for some reason (minus the crown):
We know they also made other wigs, think Maherpri, and those look much more realistic, and like what we today would call a non-recreational wig. The wig above and the wig of the Amun priest you've posted earlier look more like something that's a part of costume, but hey, that's just my opinion.
Egyptian wig styles like all fashion styles varied with the times, though what remained constant was that larger more elaborate wigs reflected higher status. Such large wigs were usually composed of the hairs of multiple individuals. Of course in death an elite member was usually buried with smaller more realistic head pieces so as not to take so much space in a sarcophagus.
As for the Amun priest wigs, yes they were worn during special religious occasions. In fact, I'm automatically reminded of Discovery Channel's 'Nefertiti Resurrected' which featured the Amun chief priest wearing a gigantic afro wig! LOL No wonder the Euronuts are mad.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^So the Amun wig was worn for religious purposes only? Since physically acting out the reputed behaviors of deities was a big part of AE religion and ceremony, I wonder if the hair texture of the wig has anything to do with him wanting to look more like the conceptualised Amun, to add more umph to his religious ceremonies.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Originally posted by Djehuti: Yes, ever since Reisner's findings I've noticed a lot of old sources I've read on Nubia love to make a distinction between lower Nubia and upper Nubia with the former being closely related to Egyptians and thus 'caucasoid' while the latter is 'negroid'. In fact I remember years ago reading a passage from Rex Keating's book Nubian Twilight where he describes tribute in the form of cattle and slaves from Nubia. From Lower Nubia these were slaves but from Upper Nubia these were 'negro' slaves. LOL
^^Typical hypocrisy and double standards, even though they had evidence way back then that the Nubians were the closest people ethnically to the Egyptians.
Definitely all Nubian... Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Let's remember that for the longest time from the advent of Egyptology in the 1800s the Egyptians were classified by Western anthropologists as being of the 'Abyssinian type'.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^So the Amun wig was worn for religious purposes only?...
I would assume so since all Egyptian priests usually went about with clean shaven heads wearing no wigs at all.
quote:Since physically acting out the reputed behaviors of deities was a big part of AE religion and ceremony, I wonder if the hair texture of the wig has anything to do with him wanting to look more like the conceptualised Amun, to add more umph to his religious ceremonies.
I've always wondered about that myself. I have never seen any depictions of the god Amun with an afro. What I do find interesting as I pointed out in another thread is that the Amun priest wigs remind me of Beja warrior hairstyles featuring an Afro with braids hanging down the back. This makes me wonder if the cult of Amun may have some roots in the eastern desert among proto-Beja or Beja predecessors.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
.
what's remarkable about this thread is that Swenet believes some Nubians had straight hair.
I wonder who else would come out an agree with that.
Either it's African diversity at it again
or they straightened their hair in some way.
this thread is like one of those Truthcentric slips that happens occasionally
.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Let's remember that for the longest time from the advent of Egyptology in the 1800s the Egyptians were classified by Western anthropologists as being of the 'Abyssinian type'.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^So the Amun wig was worn for religious purposes only?...
I would assume so since all Egyptian priests usually went about with clean shaven heads wearing no wigs at all.
quote:Since physically acting out the reputed behaviors of deities was a big part of AE religion and ceremony, I wonder if the hair texture of the wig has anything to do with him wanting to look more like the conceptualised Amun, to add more umph to his religious ceremonies.
I've always wondered about that myself. I have never seen any depictions of the god Amun with an afro. What I do find interesting as I pointed out in another thread is that the Amun priest wigs remind me of Beja warrior hairstyles featuring an Afro with braids hanging down the back. This makes me wonder if the cult of Amun may have some roots in the eastern desert among proto-Beja or Beja predecessors.
May be of use here:
It may seem surprising, but there is a strong ancient tradition linking the white crown to Upper Nubia. In the first century BC, Diodorus Siculus (3.2.1–3.6) wrote that at the beginning of time the Egyptians and Nubians (‘Aithiopians’) were one people and that Osiris (i.e. their first king) came from ‘Aithiopia’ and colonized Egypt after it was created by the out-flowing Nile. This, he states, explains why Nubian and Egyptian customs are similar and why the kings of both countries wear ‘tall pointed felt hats ending in a knob’ (Eide et al. 1996, 645). This story can be traced back to the early 18th Dynasty, when the Thutmosid pharaohs established their southern cultic frontier at Jebel Barkal, near the Fourth Cataract. This mountain is distinguished by a 75 m high pinnacle, in whose natural shape the Egyptians saw the vague features of a gigantic figure (i.e.Osiris) as well as a rearing uraeus (Nekhbet of el-Kab), both wearing the white crown. Because they also recognized the rock as an erect phallus, they believed they had discovered here the original mound of Creation — a Nubian Heliopolis and Karnak—and the birthplace and residence of the primeval ithyphallic Amun (= Min). Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: .
what's remarkable about this thread is that Swenet believes some Nubians had straight hair.
I wonder who else would come out an agree with that.
Either it's African diversity at it again
or they straightened their hair in some way.
this thread is like one of those Truthcentric slips that happens occasionally
.
I have come to believe this Lioness character is genuinly crazy.
Even though I've clearly layed out the reports on which I base my conclusions, for everyone to read, the contents of this thread (as well as that of others I've made/contributed to) somehow get morphed in her diminutive brain as reducable to merely ''Swenet believes''. We've went back and forth about Somali's possessing occasional straight hair according observations made by Coon, and now the b!tch wants to act like Africans possessing occasional straight hair is an entirely new concept. What a crackhead.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
^ They posess straight hair because they have Caucasoid admixture. This was observed by Grafton Elliot Smith (1910), Junker (1921), Batrawi (1946) and Coon (1962).
Pure-blooded Negroids don't have straight hair - they have wooly.
The Badarian remains of predynastic egypt (c. 4000 BC) are also Caucasoid - thin nosed, orthognathic etc as observed by A. Wiercinski (1965). Heres the paper -
Wiercinski A.,1965.The analysis of racial structure of early dynastic populations in Egypt. Materialy i Prace AntropoL 71:3-48.
According to Wiercinski the vast majority of the Badarian crania is Caucasoid (76 %) while only 4% show negroid 'traits' such as prognathism.
E. Strouhol (1968, 1971) came to the same conclusion. Of 177 crania only 8 were labelled as having Negroid traits.
Regarding Badarian hair -
wavy in 33 cases curly in 6 cases straight in 10 cases no wooly
- Guy Brunton, Gertrude Caton-Thompson, The Badarian Civilization and Predynastic Remains near Badari, London, 1928.
Clearly not Negroid. No nappy hair...
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
Evidently ALL the Badarians and earliest Nubians were straight or wavy haired. None were wooly. See the sources above.
Where today do you see a whole country or place of negroes who are all straight-wavy haired and not wooly?
Doesn't exist. Even if i play along with you and say Negroids can have straight hair (even though they don't) the earliest remains from egypt and nubia are entirely straight-wavy haired never wooly. Its simply impossible to get a whole country of only straight haired negroids. Even the afronuts have to spend hours scanning google images for the odd straight haired ethiopian...
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
quote:b!tch wants to act like Africans possessing occasional straight hair is an entirely new concept
Well you are going to have to do better than ''occasional'' LOL.
Regarding Badarian hair -
wavy in 33 cases curly in 6 cases straight in 10 cases no wooly
- Guy Brunton, Gertrude Caton-Thompson, The Badarian Civilization and Predynastic Remains near Badari, London, 1928.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:^ They posess straight hair because they have Caucasoid admixture. This was observed by Grafton Elliot Smith (1910), Junker (1921), Batrawi (1946) and Coon (1962).
Well, Elliot Smith, Junker, Batrawi and Coon didn’t know Somali male lineages overwhelmingly belong to E-M78, did they? With that being said, all their pre-genetic era speculations become obselete.
quote:Pure-blooded Negroids don't have straight hair - they have wooly.
^Strawman. No one mentioned Rainforest adapted Africans.
quote:The Badarian remains of predynastic egypt (c. 4000 BC) are also Caucasoid - thin nosed, orthognathic etc as observed by A. Wiercinski (1965). Heres the paper
The earliest sample, the Badarian, frequently appears to be relatively distinct. This could be due to their very gracile nature (Gaballah et al., 1972), with very little development of the muscular relief; hence they have often been considered to have a generally feminine" character (Strouhal, 1971). In early studies the Badarian sample were usually also described as having rather small absolute dimensions, especially in terms of breadth, horizontal circumference, and cranial capacity (Stoessiger, 1927; Morant, 1935). Stoessinger (1927) described the group as being distinct from Later Predynastic (LPD) populations through being more dolichocephalic and prognathic, somewhat narrower in the parietal region, and having shorter faces (and a lower nasal index). In contrast, Strouhal (1971) considered them to have high nasal indices. He also summarized them as being dolichocranial, orthocranial, mesenic to leptic, and chamaerrhine[], i.e. having narrow, average height skulls with average to narrow upper faces, and [b]a rather broad nose with marked prognathism.
-Sonia R. Zakrzewski (2007)
Badarians as described as following, according to Zakrzewski, who has summerized descriptions made by various authors:
-frequently appears to be relatively distinct. -hence they have often been considered to have a generally feminine" character -rather small absolute dimensions, especially in terms of breadth, horizontal circumference, and cranial capacity -distinct from Later Predynastic (LPD) populations through being more dolichocephalic and prognathic, -having shorter faces (and a lower nasal index) than other Predynastic populations. -high nasal indices. -chamaerrhine -a rather broad nose with marked prognathism.
So, which one of the above traits cause them to be ’’Caucasoids’’?
quote:Regarding Badarian hair -
wavy in 33 cases curly in 6 cases straight in 10 cases no wooly
- Guy Brunton, Gertrude Caton-Thompson, The Badarian Civilization and Predynastic Remains near Badari, London, 1928.
Clearly not Negroid. No nappy hair...
Exactly. Not typical of the variety of hair found in most African populations. It is similar to Somali hair in its proportions of wavy, straight and curly hairs, and Badarians were clearly more divergent from Europeans than Somali’s, as demonstrated by the above descriptions (broad nose, marked prognathism). Very simple math: the closest Euro’s can come to making Somali Caucasians is 40% using controversial markers such as N and M. This means, according to your own typological model, Badarian Eurasian input would be around 20%, as evinced by their ’’Negroid’’ facial traits. This is, mind you, lower than the non-European input of Greeks and Yugoslavians, and comes closer to the German non-European input.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
funny coincidence how African straight hair decided to be coastal near Arabia
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^Funny how modern coastal North African hair is more or less the same as European hair, according to hair studies (eg, Guilbeau-Frugier C et al, 2006), even though they're 50/50 hybrids genetically.
How do you explain that, crackhead, if not that fully indigenous proto-berbers, and their particularly close relatives in the Nile Valley, already had hair that was more or less wavy and straight. I mean, why is it that coastal North African hair doesn't look like Obama's hair, and that of other African American Mulatto's?
Just give it up already, pesky insect.
The previous time you raised the silly objection of the closeness of Arabia to Somalia, I asked you to explain why Ethiopian groups with known genetic contribution from Arabia (40% haplogroup J) don't approach the wavy/straight hair frequencies detected among Somali's, whose J frequencies are negligible (3%).
I take it you bring the issue up again because you have stumbled on a scientific explanation. I mean, you wouldn't regurgitate arguments, knowing full well they've been refuted in the past, would you? Because we all know how genuine you are when it comes to knowing when to quit.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LMAO @ dat b|tch lyinass! She's obviously lost track of all the facts no doubt due to ignoring them while continuing to spout her questions which we've already answered!
Apparently she missed the part in this thread that such straighter hair is largely found in the Sahara far away from any coastal areas-- either near Arabia or Europe-- and that such hair can also be found in the Sahel regions among people like the Kanuri and other Chadians and Fulani, or that the Bilma of Niger have that hair despite looking no different from other Bantu people in the rest of their features.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Oh and speaking of the Sahara region being a large source of people with loose hair...
Sundjata first posted this excerpt from a description by the first westerner (an African-American) to supposedly reach Timbuktu and live to tell about it:
"The place which was called El Gazie, ( 2 ) was a low sandy beach, having no trees in sight, nor any verdure. There was no appear-ance of mountain or hill ; nor (excepting only the rock on which the ship was wrecked) any thing but sand as far as the eve could reach. The Moors [of Mauritania] were straight haired, but quite black; their dress consisted of little more than a rug or a skin round their waist, their upper parts and from their knees downwards, being wholly naked."--Robert Adams (1810)
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sweetnet: modern coastal North African hair is more or less the same as European hair, according to hair studies (eg, Guilbeau-Frugier C et al, 2006), even though they're 50/50 hybrids genetically.
How do you explain that, egghead, if not that fully indigenous proto-berbers, and their particularly close relatives in the Nile Valley, already had hair that was more or less wavy and straight.
Djheuti said hair type correlates to climate. San hair is peppercorn So why is modern coastal North African hair is more or less the same as European hair?
Because much of costal North Africa was not populated a few thousand years ago. Various migrants, Phoenicians, Vandals, Romans, Arabs settled into these areas. These people became people who historians were to call "indigenous" just as American Indians, technically came from Asia. These costal North African Atlas people mingled with some Africans but were in larger part Eurasian. That's why they have straight hair and desert dwelling Khosians' is not even wavy or curly, not even on the way to straight hair. A strong case of common sense
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Oh and speaking of the Sahara region being a large source of people with loose hair...
Sundjata first posted this excerpt from a description by the first westerner (an African-American) to supposedly reach Timbuktu and live to tell about it:
"The place which was called El Gazie, ( 2 ) was a low sandy beach, having no trees in sight, nor any verdure. There was no appear-ance of mountain or hill ; nor (excepting only the rock on which the ship was wrecked) any thing but sand as far as the eve could reach. The Moors [of Mauritania] were straight haired, but quite black; their dress consisted of little more than a rug or a skin round their waist, their upper parts and from their knees downwards, being wholly naked."--Robert Adams (1810)
^Nice, goes together nicely with what I just said about the possibility of proto Berbers taking such characteristics further West.
quote:Djheuti said hair type correlates to climate. San hair is peppercorn So why is modern coastal North African hair is more or less the same as European hair?
For this sloppy mumbo jumbo to be entertained (ie, your idea that the Sahara is no different from Khoisan habitat), you'd have to first demonstrate this, and while you're at it, demonstrate that Khoisan people have been living under those Saharan-like cumstances long enough for the hypothesis to be falsifyable.
quote:Because much of costal North Africa was not populated a few thousand years ago. Various migrants, Phoenicians, Vandals, Romans, Arabs settled into these areas. These people became people who historians were to call "indigenous" just as American Indians, technically came from Asia. These costal North African Atlas people mingled with some Africans but were in larger part Eurasian. That's why they have straight hair
All you did was citing a fairytale about Eurasian migrants being numerically dominant (which you've just pulled out of your ass), and tying that falsehood to your braid dead logic that ''thats why they have straight hair'', as if that's an explanation.
Crackhead, didn't I just tell you that coastal North Africans have, on average, an Eurasian contribution of around 50%? How can a 50% genetic contribution of Eurasian groups, create a hair form that is nearly the exact same as that of the Eurasian group, if the local hair form was kinky prior to that? Do you imagine it is possible to end up with fresh milk after mixing it with cereal? Crackhead all over again. Maybe you'll get it now that I've dumbed it down for you.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: All you did was citing a fairytale about Eurasian migrants being numerically dominant (which you've just pulled out of your ass),
Carthage, a Phoenician colony, at it's height had 500,000 people.
That you have any evidence of large populations of littoral N. Africans BCE who were not Eurasian is a joke.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass dummy: Djheuti said hair type correlates to climate. San hair is peppercorn So why is modern coastal North African hair is more or less the same as European hair?
Hey dummy what does San have to do with anything?! Yes I believe hair form does correlate with climate and I think wavy hair forms in general correlate with dry desert conditions like Australian aborigines. As Swenet says, what evidence do you have that the San adapted to such just because their environment today is arid?!
Also, you speak of coastal North Africa but what about inner North Africa away from the coasts where people have such hair, dummy?!
quote:Because much of coastal North Africa was not populated a few thousand years ago. Various migrants, Phoenicians, Vandals, Romans, Arabs settled into these areas. These people became people who historians were to call "indigenous" just as American Indians, technically came from Asia. These coastal North African Atlas people mingled with some Africans but were in larger part Eurasian. That's why they have straight hair and desert dwelling Khosians' is not even wavy or curly, not even on the way to straight hair. A strong case of common sense
More lyinass assumptions. What makes you think the coastal areas were not populated until a few thousand years ago?!! Also, how the hell can you call recent immigrants in the last thousand years "indigenous" and compare them to Native Americans who were actually the first people to settle the Americas tens of thousands of years ago?! Do you know who incredibly stupid you look?? I guess not!
And again, though the Khoisan today are largely restricted to the Kalahari, such was not always the case as their range was much larger and even the Kalahari is not as dry as the Sahara nor does it remain as dry for as long periods.
More Lyinass productions down the toilet!! Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: All you did was citing a fairytale about Eurasian migrants being numerically dominant (which you've just pulled out of your ass),
Carthage, a Phoenician colony, at it's height had 500,000 people.
That you have any evidence of large populations of littoral N. Africans BCE who were not Eurasian is a joke.
^Dumbass, now demonstrate that the predominant nr of those people were Phoenicians, and not locals. It may not have occurred to your grey matter deficit brain, but colonies are generally political constructs that involve the local peoples, not exclude them.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QB]
quote:^ They posess straight hair because they have Caucasoid admixture. This was observed by Grafton Elliot Smith (1910), Junker (1921), Batrawi (1946) and Coon (1962).
Well, Elliot Smith, Junker, Batrawi and Coon didn’t know Somali male lineages overwhelmingly belong to E-M78, did they? With that being said, all their pre-genetic era speculations become obselete.
Can you explain how they become obsolete? And how does the fact Somali male lineages are E-M78 help you?
quote:The earliest sample, the Badarian, frequently appears to be relatively distinct. This could be due to their very gracile nature (Gaballah et al., 1972), with very little development of the muscular relief; hence they have often been considered to have a generally feminine" character (Strouhal, 1971).
No. Stouhal (1971) labels these gracile remains as ''gracile meditterenean''. This was the ancestral Caucasoid phenotype which evolved out of the earliest proto-Caucasoid Upper Paleolithics (Cro-Magnon). Its basically a reduced, smaller-boned derivative :
Earnest Hooton -
''The brunet, long-headed, delicate and gracile type that is ordinarily thought of under the name Mediterranean, I propose to call Classic Mediterranean. There can be little doubt that it is a reduced, refined, smaller-boned derivative of either or both of the massive dolichocephals -Upper Palaeolithic''
Classic Mediterranean
Reduced derivatives of the Upper Palaeolithic
a) Skeleton: gracile, skull smooth with small brow-ridges and mastoids
(b) Beard and body hair: sparse
(c) Face narrow, oval; chin pointed
(d) Nose form: in the Upper Palaeolithic derivative, straight with medium thick tip, elevated or horizontal; in the Iran Plateau derivative, very thin, high-bridged, often aquiline nose, always convex, with thin, depressed tip and recurved alae
(e) Stature: usually under 166 cm.
(f) Body build: usually slender
quote:He also summarized them as being dolichocranial, orthocranial, mesenic to leptic, and chamaerrhine[], i.e. having narrow, average height skulls with average to narrow upper faces, and [b]a rather broad nose with marked prognathism.
-Sonia R. Zakrzewski (2007)
No. His 1971 covers 177 Badarian crania. Of those he distinguishes between the ''Gracile Meditterenean'' (Caucasoid) to robust Europid (Caucasoid) crania, and then he puts the majority as 'Negroid-Europid' mixed. He took the position that Negroids entered North Africa before Coon, Junker etc had proposed and that it was already a melting pot by 4000 BC.
He maintains that the original racial substratum was Gracile Med, never Negroid.
quote:-frequently appears to be relatively distinct. -hence they have often been considered to have a generally feminine" character -rather small absolute dimensions, especially in terms of breadth, horizontal circumference, and cranial capacity -distinct from Later Predynastic (LPD) populations through being more dolichocephalic and prognathic, -having shorter faces (and a lower nasal index) than other Predynastic populations. -high nasal indices. -chamaerrhine -a rather broad nose with marked prognathism.
The 177 Badarian crania is put in the following groups -
Gracile Med (Caucasoid) Robust Europid (Caucasoid) Negroid-Caucasoid (Hybrid)
quote:So, which one of the above traits cause them to be ’’Caucasoids’’?
They are different races.
The gracile med skulls have no prognathism, thin nasal holes, are dolichocephalic with small teeth. They are Caucasoid. In contrast the hybrid skulls show negroid prognathism and are far larger with wider nasal holes.
quote:Clearly not Negroid. No nappy hair Exactly. Not typical of the variety of hair found in most African populations. It is similar to Somali hair in its proportions of wavy, straight and curly hairs, and Badarians were clearly more divergent from Europeans than Somali’s, as demonstrated by the above descriptions (broad nose, marked prognathism). Very simple math: the closest Euro’s can come to making Somali Caucasians is 40% using controversial markers such as N and M. This means, according to your own typological model, Badarian Eurasian input would be around 20%, as evinced by their ’’Negroid’’ facial traits. This is, mind you, lower than the non-European input of Greeks and Yugoslavians, and comes closer to the German non-European input.
Again you are distorting the sources.
The badarian crania belong to different races.
You afronuts though are obsessed with this bizarre idea that the variation is ''inbuilt'' diversity among africans - its a way for you to claim racial traits as your own which are never yours - which is what black people do out of self-hate. They don't want afros, wide noses, thick lips or prognathism - they crave Caucasoid features such as straight-wavy hair, thin noses etc - so they then claim those features are apart of their own phenotypic diversity (when in reality everyone knows this is false).
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Sweetnet, if your crap was true people looking like Kabyles would be all over Sudan. It's too late. I heard zarahan is kicking you out out the click due to that straight haired Nubian joint. You think coming at me is going to save you now?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Can you explain how they become obsolete? And how does the fact Somali male lineages are E-M78 help you?
Because after all this talk about the Caucasian family of people ultimately coming from the Caucasus region, this appears to have no foundation. Such authors went by phenotype, and didn’t take into account that a common phenotype doesn’t necessarily correlate with the phylogenetic signature of two populations. And it doesn’t stop there; sound statistical metric/non-metric/dental analysis never place Somali’s among Europeans. The order of population means is always: Broadly featured Africans, Elongated Africans, North Africans and THEN Europeans.
quote:No. Stouhal (1971) labels these gracile remains as ''gracile meditterenean''. This was the ancestral Caucasoid phenotype which evolved out of the earliest proto-Caucasoid Upper Paleolithics (Cro-Magnon). Its basically a reduced, smaller-boned derivative
This is garbage. Gracialisation is not a phenomenon that is exclusive to Europe. This is something that occurred in many places, so it's NOT a marker that can be used to distinguish between populations. If you’re so confident it can function as such a marker, list one modern European population of which it can be said that the remains are difficult to assign to a sex, like it has been frequently said of Badarians. In fact, you yourself have created threads about how Europeans supposedly have the most sexual dimorphism and Africans the least. Where do you think that places ''feminine'', little muscle relief having Badarians. Nearer to Africans or nearer to Europeans?
quote:He maintains that the original racial substratum was Gracile Med, never Negroid.
I take it, that by ''original substratum'' you mean the 9 craniums out of the total 115 that were thought to be gracial meds? How can a substratum consist of 9 out of 115 craniums?
quote:The 177 Badarian crania is put in the following groups -
Gracile Med (Caucasoid) Robust Europid (Caucasoid) Negroid-Caucasoid (Hybrid)
You’re lying, as usual, and you can't even get your facts straight. The amount of crania he analysed was 115, not 177.
And why do lie about the types? There were not three, but four. 15 were ’’Europid’’ according to Strouhal. These were internally composed of remains that he thought of as resembling Robust North African Epipaleolithic material (6), and the others resembled the gracile Mediterranean type (9). Some were thought of as close to Negro types (8), and the rest seemed mixed to him and exhibiting various degrees of traits of both extremes (94).
Aside from the questionable labels that try to force Europe into the equation (contemporary Nubian remains contained gracile and robust configurations that equally fit the bill as explained earlier), Strouhal’s work holds no currency when scrutinized by modern scientific standards. ALL individuals of a given cranial series, whether African or European, can be distributed to various groups according to their individual appearances.
quote:They are different races.
The gracile med skulls have no prognathism, thin nasal holes, are dolichocephalic with small teeth. They are Caucasoid. In contrast the hybrid skulls show negroid prognathism and are far larger with wider nasal holes.
They were found to have rather small absolute dimensions, especially the breadth measurements, the horizontal circumference and the cranial capacity, they were not very robust, their muscular relief was developed only slightly and their general character was described as feminine. According to the indices, they were dolichocranial, orthocranial, mesenic to leptenic and chamaerrhine (i.e. narrow, average height skull, average to narrow upper face, and rather broad nose). A rather high nasal index (men 54.8, women 55.2) together with marked prognathism distinguished them from the following Predynastic series and inclined towards the Negroid direction.
Lying Cash-in-the-minus says:
-no prognathism -thin nasal holes -only the hybrids Badarians show prognathism -only the hybrid Badarians show wider nasal apertures’
Strouhal said:
-Marked prognathism for the entire series as a whole -A relatively broad nose for the entire series as a whole
quote:Again you are distorting the sources. The badarian crania belong to different races.
You’re talking out of your ass. The Badarian arrow is clearly short on the following graph, indicating them to be much more homogenous than known mulatto groups such as the Gizeh E-series depicted above all the other series:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Sweetnet, if your crap was true people looking like Kabyles would be all over Sudan. It's too late. I heard zarahan is kicking you out out the click due to that straight haired Nubian joint. You think coming at me is going to save you now?
You can't even formulate sound arguments, much less a well put together case. Your responses have nothing to do with what was asked of you.
Bye Lioness.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Because after all this talk about the Caucasian family of people ultimately coming from the Caucasus region, this appears to have no foundation.
Caucasoids did not originate in the Caucasus region. The name derived from Blumenbach who used the inhabitants of that region as a representation of Homo Albus (Whites) in Linnaeus' earlier racial classification. The term has since stuck.
quote:Such authors went by phenotype, and didn’t take into account that a common phenotype doesn’t necessarily correlate with the phylogenetic signature of two populations.
quote:And it doesn’t stop there; sound statistical metric/non-metric/dental analysis never place Somali’s among Europeans. The order of population means is always: Broadly featured Africans, Elongated Africans, North Africans and THEN Europeans.
Negroids have macrodont (megadont) meaning large however the teeth of Somalis are mesodont (medium) and microdont (small). I don't know what sources you've been reading.
Lefkowitz covers this in her work 'Black Athena revisited' p. 150 noting how Somaliis have smaller teeth than sub-saharan africans and lists the scientific sources.
However the debate is that larger teeth could change through diet. Others however regard teeth as a strong marker of racial ancestry. Negroids have the largest teeth, Caucasoids have the smallest. This is linked to the prognathic skull in Negroids which prevents dental overcrowding as found in Caucasoids because they have non-protuding jaws.
Gill (1986:149-150) describes the Caucasoid parabolic palate as triangular, and states that the reduced prognathism seen in Caucasoid skulls is due to consistent dental crowding.
Krogman and Iscan (1986:369) describe Caucasoid dental roots as shorter, straighter, and less splayed than Negroid or Mongoloid dental roots.
- Gill, George W. 1986. "Craniofacial Criteria in Forensic Identification." In Forensic Osteology: Advances in the identification of Human Remains. Reichs, KI(ed.). pp. 143- 159. Springfield: Charles C.
- Krogman, Wilton Marion and Mehmet Yascar Iscan 1986. The Human Skeleton in Forensic Medicine. Springfield: Charles C.Thomas.
quote:This is garbage. Gracialisation is not a phenomenon that is exclusive to Europe. This is something that occurred in many places, so it's NOT a marker that can be used to distinguish between populations. If you’re so confident it can function as such a marker, list one modern European population of which it can be said that the remains are difficult to assign to a sex, like it has been frequently said of Badarians. In fact, you yourself have created threads about how Europeans supposedly have the most sexual dimorphism and Africans the least. Where do you think that places ''feminine'', little muscle relief having Badarians. Nearer to Africans or nearer to Europeans?
Gracialisation appears in all races but you overlooked the fact the Gracile Med skulls are orthognathic with thin nasal holes. They are Caucasoid. Negroids in contrast are prognathic with wide nasal holes.
You are delusional though and think blacks can have no prognathism and thin noses, which is why this is pointless to further debate.
First post. Read all of it.
Posted by MissJennifer (Member # 16083) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sahel (Siptah):
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: What do you mean ''how do they designate the term ''wavy and curly''? The same way you would when you know what the terms mean according to their definition, and apply them in the real world. I find it interesting that both you and Dana question their ability to designate wavy, but not their ability to designate peppercorn hair. Surely, someone incapable of diagnosing the former, cannot be trusted diagnosing the latter, yet attention is focused on wavy, why?
Peppercorn as a designation is more precise as compared to "wavy and curly."
quote:By definition it is impossible for someone to have kinky, yet wavy long and flowing hair.
Why, and who's definition are you going by; your own or the scientists? As stated by the scientists some samples had hair clearly defined as crispy curled (p118) and even frizzy (p125), all terms used to additionally describe the hair of black peoples yet simply because these samples show hair which gravitate away from samples showing peppercorn hair they are not illustrated as "typically negro."
quote:Don't let that stop you from posting examples though, I'd appreciate pics of African people with kinky hair whose hair form matches your description.
With regard to your request:
quote:
These girls are a good case in point. Their hair is kinky, long, and wavy textured.
quote:Yes, and that isn't the only questionable term they've been sprinkling around. However, how that effects the hair descriptons being made, I have yet to see.
It doesn't, although the usage of the word "typical" together with the racial label "negro" when describing hair is unnecessary if you ask me. I don't see them interjecting non "negro" racial labels and together applying the word "typical" in report of their other samples.
the first girl looks mixed. they are not pure black
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ And exactly how is a pure African suppose to look like to you??
If you haven't noticed, Africans are very diverse in features so skin close to jet black, kinky hair, broad nose, and everted lips aren't exactly the only features found among fully indigenous Africans.
To Swenet. You waste your time and energy arguing with the idiot Castrated. This is the same white loser who works as an orderly in a mental hospital. Not that such a job can hinder someones intellect and further education but I'm pretty sure there are patients in that facility that are way more educated in matters of science and anthropology than the idiot.
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass: Sweetnet, if your crap was true people looking like Kabyles would be all over Sudan. It's too late. I heard zarahan is kicking you out out the click due to that straight haired Nubian joint. You think coming at me is going to save you now?
Are you nuts?? First of all which Kabyle are you referring to? The white types or the ORIGINAL types like the ones below?
And if you were paying attention, straight hair is found in people from Chad to Uganda, so what is so contradictory about it being found in Lower Nubia? I don't know what you "heard" but last time I checked Zarahan agrees with Swenet and neither of them are part of any clique the way you trolls are with you and Simpleton etc.
GTFOH Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Caucasoids did not originate in the Caucasus region. The name derived from Blumenbach who used the inhabitants of that region as a representation of Homo Albus (Whites) in Linnaeus' earlier racial classification. The term has since stuck.
It doesn’t matter whether that Caucasian source originated in the Caucus region or some other place. If there is no common source from which all those who are termed ’’Caucasoid’’ derive, then the whole premise is undermined. The ancestors of Somali’s, Masai, Nubians, Tutsi et al didn’t lose their paleolithic generalized modern pattern in the vicinity/because of admixture with the ancestors of Swedes for example. Therefore, their elongated physique cannot be considered evidence of them being or allied with Europeans.
quote:Negroids have macrodont (megadont) meaning large however the teeth of Somalis are mesodont (medium) and microdont (small).
Tooth size is not a common ancestry marker, wake up and remove the crust from your eyes.
quote:Negroids have the largest teeth, Caucasoids have the smallest.
You’re lying and talking out of your neck. Australian Aboriginals are among the people with the largest teeth, not the people who originated in West Africa. The tooth size of West African groups such as Nigerians is right on par with Native Americans; would you say that Nigerians and Native Americans belong to the same race? Non-Metric dental traits group Somali’s with Africans such as Kenyans and Khoisan.
quote:You are delusional though and think blacks can have no prognathism and thin noses
Of course this is impossible. It’s because you’ve already made up your mind that ’’blacks’’ means wide nosed and prognathous. In other words, you’ve already correlated ’’blacks’’ with a single exaggerated appearance, which then makes all posting of indigenous elongated featured Africans non-black, because the very glance at anything narrow nosed/orthochnatous, would disqualify them from conforming to your shabby definition of black, which is based on appearance, not phylogenetic positioning. Then you ask the question, why do all blacks have broad noses and prognathism? Well, it’s because your restricted definition of ’’black’’ excludes all groups that are phenotypically strongly deviating from Rainforest adapted Africans, but phylogenetically similar (eg, the Masai) outside of the ’’black’’ bracket. You have to have a brain deficit to be walking around with such logical inconsistencies for years, and not notice it.
quote:Gracialisation appears in all races but you overlooked the fact the Gracile Med skulls are orthognathic with thin nasal holes. They are Caucasoid. Negroids in contrast are prognathic with wide nasal holes.
No, YOU’RE the one who is overlooking facts. Just like gracialisation occurred globally, nasal indices changed according to the climate in which each of the generalised moderns settled, not because Europeans were there to regulate it worldwide with their genes. Hence, remains that look like ’’Gracile Meds’’, whether found among Amerindians, Africans, or Indians, doesn’t require the presence of actual Mediterraneans.
^Dolichocephalic, Gracile, ortochnathous, narrow nosed/faced Masai require no Mediterraneans to occur.
According to Zakrzewski (2002), discriminant function analysis assigns 83.3% of the Badarian material correctly in the ’’Badarian’’ series, and the rest of the remaining Badarian remains classify with the the succeeding Early Predynastic period. None go in the hybrid Late Gizeh series, nor do any of the hybrid Late Gizeh remains fall in the Badarian cluster. Again, wipe the crust from your eyes, and get it out of your head that Badarians were mixed race.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
The Maasai are Nilo-Hamites, meaning they are recent hybrids between Nilotes and Hamites (Ethiopians), therefore they have Caucasoid ancestry due to their Ethiopian bloodlines. They are not pure blooded Negroids.
It's funny how Afronuts always use Caucasoid admixed groups like Fulanis, Maasai, Ethiopians, Beja etc to claim Caucasoid traits.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^Hilarious.
The Masai are phenotypically DEFINITELY more divergent from forest adapted Africans, and closer to Europeans than Ethiopians/Somali's are. If anything, Cushitic admixture in Masai would make them more in line with other Africans, both in cranial size, as well as cranio-facial meassurements.
Horner admixture causing Masai to have their elongated features is the equivalent of expecting Greeks to look more like Swedes, after their 25% African contribution; it just won't happen.
The Iraqw are a good example of what Cushites mixed with a tad bit of broad featured Africans would look like. The Iraqw definitely don't approach the Masai in cranial features.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
The Maasai are genetically 25% Caucasoid (due to Ethiopian admixture). They cluster away from pure Negroids and pull in the direction of their Hamitic ancestors.
True Negroids do not have these traits nor do they have any genetic affinity with Eurasians, unlike the Maasai.
Posted by asante (Member # 18532) on :
^ Very outdated study, with only 40 markers tested. He could be 90% Negroid with modern tests.
However, the Maasai have been tested on modern 1 million marker genotyping chips. They still cluster far away from pure Negroids like the Yoruba/Igbo and pull strongly in the direction of Caucasoids.
Across the web assorted "biodiversity" proponents, wage a 'racial war' using hair studies of ancient Egyptians to prove a "Caucasian Egypt". But in fact the hair of Africans is highly variable, debunking their simplistic claims.
The hair of Africans is highly variable, ranging from tight curls of South African Bantu, to the loose curls and straight hair of peoples of East and NE Africa, all indigenously evolved over millennia as part of Africa’s high genetic diversity. This diversity undermines and ultimately dismisses simplistic "racial" claims based on hair.
Inconsistencies of the skewed "true negro" model and definitions of African hair
Dubious assertions, double standards and outmoded racial hair claims: Czech anthropologist Strouhal's 1971 study touched on hair, and advanced the most extreme racial definitions, claiming Nubians to be white Europids overrun by later waves of Negroes, and that few Negroes appeared in Egypt until the New Kingdom. Indeed, Strouhal went so far as to argue that 'Negroes' failed to survive long in Egypt, because they were ill-adapted to its arid climate! Tell that to the Saharans, Sudanese and Nubians! Such dubious claims have been thoroughly debunked by modern scholarship, however they continue in various guises by those who attempt to use "hair" to assign race 'percents' and categories to the ancients. Attempts to define racial categories based on the ancient hair rely heavily on extreme definitions, with "Negroids" typically being defined as narrowly as possible. Everything not meeting the extreme "type" is then classified as something else, such as "Caucasian".
Kieta (1990, Studies of Crania from Northern Africa) notes that while many scholars in the field have used an extreme "true negro" definition for African peoples, few have attempted to apply the same model in reverse and define a "true white." Such racial double standards are typical of much scholarship on the ancient Nile Valley peoples. A consistent approach for example would define the straight hair in Strouhal's hair sample as an exclusive Caucasian marker (10 out of 49 or approximately 20%) and make the rest (wavy and curled) hybrid or negro, at >80%. Assorted writers who support the Aryan race percent model however, are careful to avoid such consistency and typically only run the comparison one way.
QUOTE: "Strouhal (1971) microscopically examined some hair which had been preserved on a Badarian skull. The analysis was interpreted as suggesting a stereotypical tropical African-European hybrid (mulatto). However this hair is grossly no different from that of Fulani, some Kanuri, or Somali and does not require a gene flow explanation any more than curly hair in Greece necessarily does. Extremely "wooly" hair is not the only kind native to tropical Africa.." (S. O. Y. Keita. (1993). "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54)
Disturbing attempts to use hair to prove race theories: Fletcher (2002) in Egyptian Hair and Wigs, gives an example of what she calls "disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender" involving 1800s European researcher F. Petrie, who sometimes sought to use excavation reports to prove his theories of Aegean settlers flowing into Egypt. Such disturbing attempts continue today in the use of hair for race category or percentage claims involving the ancient peoples, such as the "racial" analysis seen on several Internet blogs and websites, some thinly disguised fronts for neo-nazi groups or sympathizers.
Hair study applied a stereotyped "true negro" model and used late period samples of Egypt, after the coming of Greeks, Hyskos, etc as "representative" excluding the previous 2500 years of ancient civilization. A study of the hair of Egyptian mummies by Czech anthropologists Titlbachova and Titllbach (1977) (reported in Strouhal 1977) using only late period samples found a wide range of hair in mummies. Of the 14 samples, only 4 were from the south of Egypt, and none of the 14 samples were earlier than the 18th Dynasty. Essentially the previous 2,000 years + of Egyptain civilization and peopling are not represented. Only the narrowest definition is used to identify 'true negro' types'. All other intermediate types were deemed 'non-negroid.' If a similar procedure is used in reverse and designates only straight hair as a marker of a European, then only 4 out of 14 or 29% of the samples can be deemed "Caucasoid." Below is a breakdown of the Czech data:
Sample# 5- 18th-21st dynasties- Deir el medina- curly Sample# 8- 21st-25th dynasties- hair looks straight Sample# 11- Late to Greek Period- hair partly wavy Sample# 18- Late period Egypt- hair fine diameter Sample# 19- Greek period- wavy hair Sample# 29- 18-21st Dynasties- Deir El Medina- hair shape unascertainable - south Sample# 31- 18-21st dynasties- Deir El Median- wavy to curly - south Sample# 33- 21st-25th dynasties- appears straight Sample# 34- 21st-25th dynasties- shape difficult to determine Sample# 35- 21st-25th dynasties- wavy shape Sample# 40- 21-25th Dynasties- hair curly, Sample# 44- 21-25th Dynasties- appears straight Sample# 45- 21-25th Dynasties- appears wavy Sample# 46- Kharga Oasis- 4th-5th centuries AD
Using modern technology, the same Aryan Race models are undercut with the data actually showing that Egyptians group closer to Africans than vaunted white Nordics.
[1]"Nordic hair measurements"[/i]
Neo-Nazis and sympathizers tout the work of German researcher Pruner-Bey in the 1800s which derived racial indexes of hair including Negroes, Egyptians and Germans. Germanic hair is closer to that of the Egyptians they assert. But is it as they claim?
(Data of Bruner-Bey 1864- 'On human hair as a race character') - Negroid index: 57.40 - Egyptian index: 69.94 - White Germans: 66.33 Neo-Nazi conclusion: White German Nordics are 'closer' to Egyptians
Modern data using electron microscopes- Conti-Fuhrman & Massa (1972). Massa and Masali (1980)
Compare to Pruner Bey's 1864 data: - Negroid index: 57.40 - Egyptian index: 60.02 (modern electron microscope data) White Germans: 66.33 ______________________________________________________________________________ Conclusion using modern microscope data: Negroes much ‘closer’ to Egyptians than Nordics _____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Using hair for race identification as older research does can be shaky, but even when used, it undercuts ‘Aryan” clams as shown above.
Fletcher 2002 decries “"disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender..” Other credible scientists note:
"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories. Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable". --Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2
Environmental factors can influence hair color, and the Egyptians routinely placed hair from different sources in mummy wrappings, making claims of "Nordic-haired" or "white" Egyptians dubious.
Mummification practices and dyeing of hair. Hair studies of mummies note that color is often influenced by environmental factors at burial sites. Brothwell and Spearman (1963) point out that reddish-brown ancient color hair is usually the result of partial oxidation of the melanin pigment. Other causes of hair color "blonding" involve bleaching, caused by the alkaline in the mummification process. Color also varies due to the Egyptian practice of dyeing hair with henna. Other samples show individuals lightening the hair using vegetable colorants. Thus variations in hair color among mummies do not necessarily suggest the presence of blond or red-haired Europeans or Near Easterners flitting about Egypt before being mummified, but the influence of environmental factors.
Egyptian practice of putting locks of hair in mummy wrappings. Racial analysis is also made problematic by the Egyptian practice of burying hair, in many "votive or funerary deposits buried separately from the body, a practice found from Predynastic to Roman times despite its frequent omission from excavation reports." (Fletcher 2002) In examining hair samples Fletcher (2004) notes that care is needed to determine what is natural scalp hair, versus hair from a wig, versus hair extensions to natural locks. Tracking the exact source of hair is also critical since the Egyptians were known to have placed locks of hair from different sources among mummy wrappings. (The Search for Nefertiti, By Joann Fletcher, HarperCollins, 2004, p. 93-94, 96)
Egyptians shaved much of their natural hair off and used wigs extensively as covering, obtaining much of the hair for wigs through trade. Discoveries" of "Aryan" or 'Nordic" hair are thus hardly 'proof' of incoming Caucasoids, but may be simply hair purchased from some source and made into a wig. This is much less dramatic than the exciting picture of inflowing 'Aryan' hordes.
The ancient Egyptians shaved off much of their own natural hair as a matter of personal hygiene and custom, and wore wigs in public. According to the Encyclopedia of body adornment (Margo DeMello, 2007, Greenwood Publishing Group, p. 101), "Boys and girls until puberty wore their hair shaved except for a side locl left on the side of their head. Many adults- both men and women- also shaved their hair as a way of coping with heat and lice. However, adults did not go about bald, and instead wore wigs in public and in private.. Wigs were initially worn by the elites, but later worn by women of all classes.."
The widespread use of wigs in ancient Egypt thus complicates and contradicts attempts at 'racial' analysis. Fletcher (2002) shows that many Egyptian wigs have been found with what is defined as straighter 'cynotrichous' hair. This however is hardly a marker of massive European or Near Eastern presence or admixture. Fletcher notes that the Egyptians often eschewed their own personal hair, shaving carefully and using wigs widely. The hair for these wigs was often obtained through trade. Indeed, "hair itself being a valuable commodity ranked alongside gold and incense in account lists from the town of Kahun." Image gallery | Articles | Google
Egyptian trading links with other regions is well known, and a commodity like straighter 'cynotrichous' hair could have been easily obtained via the Sahara, Levant, the Maghreb, Mediterranean contacts, or even the hair of Asiatic war captives or casualties from Egypt's numerous conflicts. There is little need to postulate mass influxes of European admixtures or populations to account for hair types in wigs. The limb proportion studies of the ancient Egyptians showing them to be much more related to tropical types than to Europids, is further demonstration of the fallacy of using hair as 'proof' of a 'Aryan' or predominantly European admixed Egypt.
Nubian wigs and wigs in Egypt
Such exchanges or use of hair appear elsewhere in the Nile valley. Tomb finds show Nubians themselves wearing wigs of straight hair. But one Nubian from the Royal valley, of the 12th century, named Maherpra, was found to be wearing a wig himself, made up of tightly curled 'negroid' hair, on top of his natural covering (Fletcher 2002). The so-called "Nubian wig" also appears in Egyptian art relief's depicting daily life, a stylistic arrangement thought to imitate those found in southern Egypt or Nubia. Such wigs appear to have been popular with both Egyptians and Nubians. Fletcher 2004 notes that the famous queen Nefertiti made frequent use of the Nubian wig: "Nefertiti and her daughter seem to have set a trend for wearing the Nubian wig.. a coiffure first worn by Nubian mercenaries and clearly associated with the military." A detail of a wall scene in Theban tomb TT.55 shows the queen wearing the Nubian wig. Infantrymen from the Nubia. Note both bow and battle-axe carried into combat.
Nubian infantrymen shown with distinctive Nubian wig. From Deir el-Bahri, Temple of Hatshepsut New Kingdom, Eighteenth Dynasty, 1480 B.C.
Hair studies of Nubians show built-in African genetic variability
Hair studies of Nubians have also been undertaken. One study at Semna, in Nubia (Daniel Hrdy 1978- Analysis of Hair Samples of Mummies from Semna South, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, (1978) 49: 277-262), found curling patterns intermediate between Northwest European and African samples. The X-group, especially males, showed more African elements than the Meroitic in the curling variables. Crimping and curvature data patterned in a northwest Europe direction. These data plots however do not necessarily indicate race admixture or percentages, or the presence of European migrants or colonists (see Keita 2005 below), but rather a data pattern of variation in how hair curls, and native African diversity which cases substantial overlap with non-African groups. This is a routine occurrence within human groups.
Africa has the highest phenotypic variation, just as it has the highest geentic variation- accommodating a wide range of features for its peoples without the need for any "race mix: Relethford (2001) shows that ".. methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies." (Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5, October 2001, pp. 629-636) Hanihara 2003 notes that [significant] "..intraregional diversity are present in Subsaharan Africans.." While ancient Egypt had gene flow in various eras, hair variations easily fall under this pattern of built-in, indigenous diversity, as well as the above noted cultural practice of using wigs with hair from different places obtained through trade.
Among Europeans for example, some people have curlier hair and some have straighter hair than others. Various peoples of East and West Africa also have narrow noses, which are different from other peoples elsewhere in Africa, nevertheless they still remain Africans. DNA studies also note greater variation within selected populations that without. Since Africa has the highest genetic diversity in the world, such routine variation in characteristics such as hair need not indicate any racial percentage or admixture, but simply part of the built-in genetic diversity of the ancient peoples on the continent. Indeed, the Semna study author notes that blondism, especially in young children, is common in many dark-haired populations (e.g., Australian, Melanesian), and is still found in some Nubian villages. As regards hair color variation, reddish type hair is associated with the presence of pheomelanin, which can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well. See "Rameses" below. Albinism is another source of red hair.
Dubious attempts at 'racial analysis' using Nubian hair and crania. Assorted supporters of the stereotypical Aryan 'race' model attempt to use hair to argue for a predominantly 'white' Nubia. But as noted above, such attempts are dubious given built-in African genetic diversity. Often 'racial' hair claims attempt to link on with cranial studies purporting to match ancient Nubians with Swedes, Frenchmen, etc. But such claims are also dubious. In a detailed analysis of the Fordisc computer program used to put forward such claims, Williams, Armelagos, et al. (2005) found that the program created ludicrous "matches" between the ancient Nubian crania and peoples from Hungary, Japan, Easter Island and a host of others in far-flung regions! Their conclusion was that the diversity of human populations in the databank explained such wide ranging matches. Such objective mainstream analyses debunk obsolete and improbable claims of 'racial' migrations of alleged Frenchman, Hungarians, or other whites into ancient Nubia, or equally improbable racial 'percentages' supposedly quantifying such claims. (Frank l'engle Williams, Robert L. Belcher, and George J . Armelagos, "Forensic Misclassification of Ancient Nubian Crania: Implications for Assumptions about Human Variation," Current Anthropology, volume 46 (2005), pages 340-346)
Alleged massive influx of Europeans and Middle Easterners to give the ancient peoples hair variation did not happen. Such variation was already in place as part of Africa' built in genetic and phenotypic diversity. As regards diameter, the average diameter of the Semna sample was close to both the Northwest European and East African samples. This again suggests a range of built-in African indigenous variability, and calls into questions various migration theories to the Nile Valley. One study for example (Keita 2005) tested the model of C. Loring Brace (1993) as to the notion of incoming European migrants replacing indigenous peoples of the Nile Valley. Brace's work had also suggested a relationship between northwest Europeans such as Scandanavians and African peoples of the Horn. Data analysis failed to support this model, instead clustering samples much closer to African series than to Europeans. Keita concluded that similarities between African data in his survey (skulls, etc) and non-Africans was not due to gene flow, but a subset of built-in African variability.
Ancient Egyptians cluster much closer to other Egyptians and Nubians. A later study by Brace, (Brace 2005- The questionable contribution..) groups ancient Egyptian populations like the Naqada closer to Nubians and Somalis than European, Mediterranean or Middle Eastern populations, and places various Nubians samples closer to Tanzanian, Dahomeian, and Congoid data points than to Europeans and Middle easterners. The limb proportion studies of Zakrzewski (2003) (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.) showing the tropical body plan of the ancient Egyptians also undercuts theories of inflowing European or near Eastern colonists, or the 'native Europid' model of Strouhal (1971).
The yellowish-red-hair of Rameses: proof of a Nordic Egypt?
Red hair itself is within the range of African diversity or that of dark-skinned peoples. Native black Australoids for example routinely produce blonde hair:
Detailed microscopic analysis during the 1980s (Balout 1985) identified some of the hair of Egyptian Pharoah Rameses II as being a yellowish-red. Such a finding should not be surprising given the wide range of physical variability in Africa, the most genetically diverse region on earth, out of which flowed other population groups. Indeed, blondism and various other hair shades are not unknown in East Africa or Nubia, particularly in children, nor are such hair color variants uncommon in dark-haired or dark skinned populations like the Australians. (Hrdy 1978) Given the range of genetic variability in Africa, a red-haired Rameses is hardly unusual. Rameses' reign, in the 19th Dynasty, came over 1,500 years after the Egyptian state had been established, and after the Hyskos interlude. Such latecomers to Egypt, like the Hyskos, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs etc would add their own genetic strands to the nation’s mix. Whatever the blend of genes that occurred with Rameses, his hair offers little supposed "proof" of a "white" or "Nordic" Egypt. If anything, X-rays of the royal mummies from earlier Dynasties by mainstream scientists show that the Egyptians pharaohs and other royals had varied 'Negroid' leanings. See X-Rays of the Royal mummies here, or here.
Pheomelanin and Rameses- found in light and dark-haired populations: The finding of Rameses “red” hair also deserves further scrutiny. The analysis found evidence of dyeing to make the hair yellowish-red, but some elements were untouched by the dye. These elements of yellowish-red hair in Balout’s study, were established on the basis of the presence of pheomelanin, a red-brown polymeric pigment in the skin and hair of humans. However, pheomelanin can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well, which gives it a reddish hue. Most natural melanins contain sulfur, which is typically associated with pheomelanin. In scientific tests of melanin, black hair contained as much as 5% sulfur, 3% lower than the 8.8% found in Irish red hair, but exceeding the 2.3% found in Scandinavian blond hair. (Jolles, et al. 1996) Thus the yellowish-red hair discovered on Rameses is well within the range of human variation for dark haired people, whatever the exact gene combination that led to the condition.
Rameses hair was not a typical European red, but yellowish-red, within African variation. It was also not ultra straight, further undermining claims of "Nordic" influence. Somalians and Ethiopians are SUB-SAHARANS and they routinely produce straight-haired people without the need for any "race mix" to explain why. The analysis on Rameses also did not show classic "European" red hair but hair of a light red to yellowish tinge. Black haired or dark-skinned populations are quite capable of producing such yellowish-red color variants on their own, as can be seen in today's east and northeast Africa (see child's photo above). Nor is such color variation unusual to Africa. Native dark-skinned populations in Australia, routinely produce people with blond or reddish hair. As noted above, ultra diverse Africa is the original source of such variation.
The analysis also found the hair to be cymotrich or wavy, again a characteristic quite within the range of overall African or Nile valley physical and genetic diversity. A "pure" Nordic type of straight hair was thus not established for Rameses. Hence the notion of white Europeans or red-headed Caucasoids from other areas flowing into ancient Egypt to add hair variation, particularly the early centuries of the dynastic state is unlikely. Such flows may have occurred most heavily in the Greek and Roman era but say nothing about the thousands of years preceding. The presence of pheomelanin conditions or other genetic combinations also explains how the different hair used in Egyptian wigs could vary in color, aside from environmental oxidation, bleaching and dyeing.
Red hair is rare worldwide, and history shows little evidence of Northern Europeans or "Nordics" sweeping into Egypt to give the natives a bit of hair coloring or variation. Most red hair is found in northern and western Europe, especially in the British Isles, and even then it appears in minor frequencies in Europe- some 4% of the population. It is unlikely such populations had any major contact or influence in the ancient Nile Valley. As noted above, red hair is comparatively rare in the world’s populations and pheomelanin conditions are found in dark-haired populations, and thus is well within the range of variation from the Sahara, East Africa and the Nile valley. “White Aryan” theories of Egypt are seen in the works of HFK Gunther (1927), Archibald Sayce (1925) and Raymond Dart (1939), and still find traction on a number of 'Aryan', neo-nazi and "race" websites and blogs which purport to show a "white Nordic Egypt" using Rameses' "red" hair as an example. Today's scientific research however, has debunked these dubious views, showing that red hair, while not common world wide, is a well known variant within human populations, even those with dark hair.
Straight or curly hair is also routine among sub-Saharans like Somalians, who are firmly part of the East African populations. As regards Somalians for example, Somali DNA overwhelmingly links much more heavily with other Africans including Kenyans & Ethiopians (85%), than with Europeans & Middle Easterners. (15%) On Y-chromosome markers (E3b1), Somalis (77%) and other African populations dwarf small European (5.1%) or Middle Eastern (6.3%) frequencies. “The data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population..” (Sanchez et al., High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages.. in Somali males (2005)
As one mainstream researcher notes about the dubious value of "racial" hair analysis:
"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories. Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable". --Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^You've already posted that information here. Please don't make the thread a pain to read by having to scroll past all that information. Thanks.
quote:The Maasai are genetically 25% Caucasoid (due to Ethiopian admixture). They cluster away from pure Negroids and pull in the direction of their Hamitic ancestors.
True Negroids do not have these traits nor do they have any genetic affinity with Eurasians, unlike the Maasai.
^I will ignore reiterated and already addressed arguments
quote: Posted a few minutes ago: The Masai are phenotypically DEFINITELY more divergent from forest adapted Africans, and closer to Europeans than Ethiopians/Somali's are. If anything, Cushitic admixture in Masai would make them more in line with other Africans, both in cranial size, as well as cranio-facial meassurements.
Horner admixture causing Masai to have their elongated features is the equivalent of expecting Greeks to look more like Swedes, after their 25% African contribution; it just won't happen.
The Iraqw are a good example of what Cushites mixed with a tad bit of broad featured Africans would look like. The Iraqw definitely don't approach the Masai in cranial features.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The Masai are phenotypically DEFINITELY more divergent from forest adapted Africans, and closer to Europeans than Ethiopians/Somali's are. If anything, Cushitic admixture in Masai would make them more in line with other Africans, both in cranial size, as well as cranio-facial meassurements.
Nonsense.
Craniometrically the Maasai are in between Horners and Negroids, in agreement with their hybrid origins. They have stronger Negroid (Nilotid) infleunce, but still are partly Caucasoid nonetheless. See this study (p. 184):
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The Masai are phenotypically DEFINITELY more divergent from forest adapted Africans, and closer to Europeans than Ethiopians/Somali's are. If anything, Cushitic admixture in Masai would make them more in line with other Africans, both in cranial size, as well as cranio-facial meassurements.
Nonsense.
Craniometrically the Maasai are in between Horners and Negroids, in agreement with their hybrid origins. They have stronger Negroid (Nilotid) infleunce, but still are partly Caucasoid nonetheless. See this study (p. 184):
This had better not be another case of you mistaking the Masai for another ethnic group, like how you took the Hema to be Tutsi's.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
Page 184
Maasai appear intermediate between the Southern Sudanese and Northeast Africans.
Fulanis (Peuls) appear intermediate between the West Africans and North Africans.
Both are clearly admixed groups.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Got the graph in front of me. This should be hilarious, as soon as I find out what those 6 variables are based on.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Originally posted by alTakruri: As nothing but a propaganda peddler Tin Isles keeps repeating non-existant sources even after being shown that there is no so-called reference as he put up.
A favoured tactic of propagandists is repetition. It is known that false information can eventually be assimilated by the majority of people who find it appealing regardless of factuality if it is but repeated over and over and over again. Just ask the mad ad men on Madison Avenue who's televised cigarette advertisements were so inculcating that the USA government had to step in and ban for the health concerns of that nation.
No matter how many times Coonian pseudo-anthropology is repeated it will never be true. It was even rejected by his colleagues in the very years Coon presented it. And Baker, Coon's disciple, was just as soundly rejected.
Unfortunately, the only way to counter Tinman is to re-post the exposure of the lies even though this ties up time and distracts from positive sourced presentations of non-racialist subjects.
Indeed. Regretabble, but as long as trolls keep creating multiple threads denying the same data dealt with on other threads then it will be fire with fire. Its a 2-way street.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Got the graph in front of me. This should be hilarious, as soon as I find out what those 6 variables are based on.
They clearly separate Negroids from Caucasoids! And your beloved Fulani, Maasai, Tutsi etc appear intermediate.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
The guy who did the craniometric study Perahu cited is Alan Froment, who has also given us this:
quote:FROMENT, Alain, Origines du peuplement de l’Égypte ancienne: l’apport de l’anthropobiologie, Archéo-Nil 2 (Octobre 1992), 79-98. (fig., tables).
The origin of the Ancient Egyptians has long been a subject of interest for physical anthropologists. Aside from some fanciful theories, a general consensus used to present them as Mediterranean, or "leucoderm Africans with a Hamitic background". However, some African nationalists, like Diop, whose theories now have a large scholarly audience, challenged this opinion. Using linguistic and cultural criteria, studies of paintings and carvings, and texts from Antiquity, he tried to demonstrate that the Ancient Egyptians were Black. Besides this typological, or raciological view, a more biologically acceptable, non-racial approach considers human variation as a clinal, environmental adaptation. Numerical computations are possible from cranial, or cephalic measurements, which enable populations to be compared by discriminant analysis. Such an analysis was carried out on a set of 384 skull samples from Egypt, Nubia, India, Maghreb, Europe and Subsaharan Africa. Two very discriminant measurements showed a strong correlation with the axes: nose breadth and bizygomatic breadth. This representation of population distribution maps very closely onto their geographic location: on average, the Ancient Egyptian people is morphologically equidistant from Europe and Africa. Nile Valley inhabitants display a wide range of variation, as a consequence of a long process of mixing. Black populations of the Horn of Africa (Tigré and Somalia) fit well into Egyptian variations.
And a graph supposedly from that study:
My questions are which ancient Egyptians does Froment use in this study and how many variables did he measure their skulls by? I get the impression that he doesn't use a lot of variables in his research (he names only two in the study I cited above and six in the study cited by Perahu).
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Got the graph in front of me. This should be hilarious, as soon as I find out what those 6 variables are based on.
They clearly separate Negroids from Caucasoids! And your beloved Fulani, Maasai, Tutsi etc appear intermediate.
I have no idea what the factor loadings are, nor what the clouds and trangles represent. Fig 2b is different from the straight forward traditional PCA and DFA. The authors themselves seem to convey as much in their descriptions of what figure 2a is supposed to represent. There also seems to be no information on the provenances of the examined populations, so there is no way of knowing whether we're dealing with actual Masai people, or other peoples frequently mistaken to be them, such as the Samburu.
The variables used to construct the plot in fig 2b are based on the exact same as those used by Hiernaux to describe Masai, Tutsi, Oromo and Somali populations, and in Hiernaux Saab Somali's and Masai have nearly identical meassurements in facial, nasal and cephalic index. This is not reflected in the plot you've provided a link to.
You've got some s'plainin' to do.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: The guy who did the craniometric study Perahu cited is Alan Froment, who has also given us this:
quote:FROMENT, Alain, Origines du peuplement de l’Égypte ancienne: l’apport de l’anthropobiologie, Archéo-Nil 2 (Octobre 1992), 79-98. (fig., tables).
The origin of the Ancient Egyptians has long been a subject of interest for physical anthropologists. Aside from some fanciful theories, a general consensus used to present them as Mediterranean, or "leucoderm Africans with a Hamitic background". However, some African nationalists, like Diop, whose theories now have a large scholarly audience, challenged this opinion. Using linguistic and cultural criteria, studies of paintings and carvings, and texts from Antiquity, he tried to demonstrate that the Ancient Egyptians were Black. Besides this typological, or raciological view, a more biologically acceptable, non-racial approach considers human variation as a clinal, environmental adaptation. Numerical computations are possible from cranial, or cephalic measurements, which enable populations to be compared by discriminant analysis. Such an analysis was carried out on a set of 384 skull samples from Egypt, Nubia, India, Maghreb, Europe and Subsaharan Africa. Two very discriminant measurements showed a strong correlation with the axes: nose breadth and bizygomatic breadth. This representation of population distribution maps very closely onto their geographic location: on average, the Ancient Egyptian people is morphologically equidistant from Europe and Africa. Nile Valley inhabitants display a wide range of variation, as a consequence of a long process of mixing. Black populations of the Horn of Africa (Tigré and Somalia) fit well into Egyptian variations.
And a graph supposedly from that study:
My questions are which ancient Egyptians does Froment use in this study and how many variables did he measure their skulls by? I get the impression that he doesn't use a lot of variables in his research (he names only two in the study I cited above and six in the study cited by Perahu).
The Ancient Egyptian sample is probably the E-series, or Sedment, as indicated by its closeness to the Maghrebian sample, its intermediacy between Nubia/Europe and by the two mentioned variables.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
^ That's what I thought too for the same reason.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Why do you guys bother to argue with the likes of Paironuts in the first place? This is the same idiot that claims a "caca-soid" origin for Bantu Tutsi and Nilo-Saharan Hema!! This liar and idiot was debunked many times especially here.
He is a nutcase not even worthy of addressing let alone arguing with. Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: It doesn’t matter whether that Caucasian source originated in the Caucus region or some other place. If there is no common source from which all those who are termed ’’Caucasoid’’ derive, then the whole premise is undermined.
All Caucasoids evolved from Cro-Magnon, that was their ancestral Mediterranean racial type - olive skinned, wavy haired, orthognathic, leptorrhine. Cro-Magnon's penetrated North Africa and are linked to the Mechtoids/Proto-Mediterraneans and later Caspian culture, ancestral to the North African Berbers.
quote:The ancestors of Somali’s, Masai, Nubians, Tutsi et al didn’t lose their paleolithic generalized modern pattern in the vicinity/because of admixture with the ancestors of Swedes for example. Therefore, their elongated physique cannot be considered evidence of them being or allied with Europeans.
They have admixture from North African Caucasoids. No one said anything about Swedes.
quote:You’re lying and talking out of your neck. Australian Aboriginals are among the people with the largest teeth, not the people who originated in West Africa. The tooth size of West African groups such as Nigerians is right on par with Native Americans; would you say that Nigerians and Native Americans belong to the same race? Non-Metric dental traits group Somali’s with Africans such as Kenyans and Khoisan.
Negroid teeth appear far earlier in age, and are larger and thicker than Caucasoid teeth.
The reason Caucasoid teeth are small is because they have a lack of prognathism. In contrast the Negroid jaw protudes giving more dental space.
Gill (1986:149-150) describes the Caucasoid parabolic palate as triangular, and states that the reduced prognathism seen in Caucasoid skulls is due to consistent dental crowding.
quote:Of course this is impossible. It’s because you’ve already made up your mind that ’’blacks’’ means wide nosed and prognathous. In other words, you’ve already correlated ’’blacks’’ with a single exaggerated appearance, which then makes all posting of indigenous elongated featured Africans non-black, because the very glance at anything narrow nosed/orthochnatous, would disqualify them from conforming to your shabby definition of black, which is based on appearance, not phylogenetic positioning. Then you ask the question, why do all blacks have broad noses and prognathism? Well, it’s because your restricted definition of ’’black’’ excludes all groups that are phenotypically strongly deviating from Rainforest adapted Africans, but phylogenetically similar (eg, the Masai) outside of the ’’black’’ bracket. You have to have a brain deficit to be walking around with such logical inconsistencies for years, and not notice it.
The Masai have Caucasoid admixture - which is clearly visible.
quote:No, YOU’RE the one who is overlooking facts. Just like gracialisation occurred globally, nasal indices changed according to the climate in which each of the generalised moderns settled, not because Europeans were there to regulate it worldwide with their genes. Hence, remains that look like ’’Gracile Meds’’, whether found among Amerindians, Africans, or Indians, doesn’t require the presence of actual Mediterraneans.
They are gracile med because they are dolichocephalic, orthognathic with thin nasal holes - all Caucasoid features. In contrast Negroids have wide nasal holes and prognathism.
This fact is still recognised in forensic labs. Negroid skulls look nothing like Caucasoid.
quote: Again, wipe the crust from your eyes, and get it out of your head that Badarians were mixed race.
You ignore the 33 (or whatever figure i posted before) hair samples we have on badarian crania.
None is wooly.
So the Badarians were not wooly haired, but wavy haired like Caucasoids.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^^
Why do we even bother with your dumbass?? Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I have no idea what the factor loadings are, nor what the clouds and trangles represent. Fig 2b is different from the straight forward traditional PCA and DFA. The authors themselves seem to convey as much in their descriptions of what figure 2a is supposed to represent. There also seems to be no information on the provenances of the examined populations, so there is no way of knowing whether we're dealing with actual Masai people, or other peoples frequently mistaken to be them, such as the Samburu.
These are just excuses. The Samburu are collectively less Negroid than the Maasai, because they live closer to Hamites like the Oromo.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The variables used to construct the plot in fig 2b are based on the exact same as those used by Hiernaux to describe Masai, Tutsi, Oromo and Somali populations, and in Hiernaux Saab Somali's and Masai have nearly identical meassurements in facial, nasal and cephalic index. This is not reflected in the plot you've provided a link to.
You've got some s'plainin' to do.
This graph is in agreement with the genetics on said groups. The Maasai are genetically in between the Dinka/Nuer and Hamitic Horners and it clearly shows in craniometric measurements.
These variables also clearly separate Negroids (to the left) from Caucasoids (to the right).
The Dinka and Nuer are more Negroid (pure bloods) compared to Caucasoid admixed Maasai and Tutsi.
Egyptian Nubians are also clearly part Caucasoid.
Posted by HabariTess (Member # 19629) on :
^Anything to claim Africans huh? You guys must have some serious self-hate to be so envious of African features. It aint bad being european(or whatever eurasian mix).
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:All Caucasoids evolved from Cro-Magnon, that was their ancestral Mediterranean racial type - olive skinned, wavy haired,
Again, you’re talking out of your neck; no one knows what generalized moderns looked like outside of their osteological traits. People allied with the immediate ancestors of Cro-Magnon 1 have been found all over the world, before Europe was even populated by modern humans. And like I said, their subsequent evolution was dictated by the environment they settled in.
You’re lying, again. Generalized humans looked little like modern Europeans. They had, on average, rectangular eye sockets, broadish faces, low vaults, receeding foreheads, and relatively broad noses, as indicated by the following graph (Grines 2007), where their confidence ellipse (red circle) gravitates towards the upper left corner.
On the whole, generalized moderns, including European UP remains had traits reminiscent of tropically adapted people, especially their limbs length, linearity as well as their nasal morphology (Trinkaus 1981, Holliday 1997, Franciscus 2003).
The South African Hofmeyer cranium, with its date of just 4000 years prior to the settling of Europe, proves that anatomically modern humans from Europe and certain areas in Africa looked alike (Grines 2007). Outside of Africa, in places such as the new world, this is demonstrated as well (Neves WA et al, 2005). If the Cockasian race is determined by having evolved from generalised moderns, the whole world would have to be Cock-asian.
quote:Cro-Magnon's penetrated North Africa and are linked to the Mechtoids/Proto-Mediterraneans and later Caspian culture, ancestral to the North African Berbers.
You have no idea what you’re talking about. So called ’’Mechtoid’’ status is not mutually exclusive with having tropical traits, nor can the same be said about European Upper Paleolithic people. So called ’’Mechtoid’’ Hassi el aBiod, Jebel Sahaba and Wadi Halfa specimen confirm this. ’’Mechtoid’’ is a temporal, not an ethnic designation, which is why populations with such traits are found all over North Africa, and why such traits are not not mutually exclusive with tropical traits.
- Only Caucasoids posess the highly evolved small microdont teeth (Coon 1962, 354).
No one denied that many West African people have megadont teeth. You said ’’blacks have the largest teeth’’. Prove it by providing data of populations over the world.
quote:The Masai have Caucasoid admixture - which is clearly visible.
Prove that this admixture is enough to cause their features by citing their lineages, and showing that such Eurasian lineages are in accord with their craniometric deviation from broad features Africans.
quote:They are gracile med because they are dolichocephalic, orthognathic with thin nasal holes - all Caucasoid features. In contrast Negroids have wide nasal holes and prognathism.
By simply regurgitating the same non-sense in response to something I’ve already addressed, I take it you’re throwing in the towel? Here try refuting this the next time, instead of stressing your beliefs:
No, YOU’RE the one who is overlooking facts. Just like gracialisation occurred globally, nasal indices changed according to the climate in which each of the generalised moderns settled, not because Europeans were there to regulate it worldwide with their genes. Hence, remains that look like ’’Gracile Meds’’, whether found among Amerindians, Africans, or Indians, doesn’t require the presence of actual Mediterraneans.
quote:You ignore the 33 (or whatever figure i posted before) hair samples we have on badarian crania.
None is wooly.
So the Badarians were not wooly haired, but wavy haired like Caucasoids.
LOL at this slimy snake, going back and forth between already refuted arguments.
First he says they’re caucasoid because their hair is wavy:
quote:Regarding Badarian hair -
wavy in 33 cases curly in 6 cases straight in 10 cases no wooly
Clearly not Negroid. No nappy hair...
Then, when I compare their hair to (genetically predominantly African) Somali’s who present the similar proportions of wavy, straight and curly hair forms, he says I’m overlooking Badarian crania, and that their crania indicate that they’re a mixture of races:
quote:Again you are distorting the sources. The badarian crania belong to different races.
Then, when showed him 80%+ of their crania were correctly assigned to the series to which they belong, and that none went into the known hybrid E-series, he wants to go back to talk about Badarian hair again, even though I’ve just demonstrated it’s no different from Somali hair, and even though he chickened out of addressing my argument that Badaria hair is no different from Somali hair:
quote:You ignore the 33 (or whatever figure i posted before) hair samples we have on badarian crania.
None is wooly.
This dude is literally arguing in circles, lol. A few days ago he was talking about how ''negroids'' have the least sexual dimorphism, and Europeans the most. Well, if that’s the case, Badarians are as African as it gets, and have nothing to do with Europeans, per your own description of what is characteristically European.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: These are just excuses. The Samburu are collectively less Negroid than the Maasai, because they live closer to Hamites like the Oromo.
Exactly, actual lineages for the Samburu are not needed, because common heritage with Oromo is dictated/necessitated by geographic distance.
quote:This graph is in agreement with the genetics on said groups. The Maasai are genetically in between the Dinka/Nuer and Hamitic Horners and it clearly shows in craniometric measurements.
Shut your trap, idiot. Though both Elongated Africans, Somali and Masai are worlds apart, both in cranial size as well as in phenotypic closeness, as indicated by the following graph, where Masai plot vertically away from Somali (cranial size), as well as horizontally (craniometric distance):
quote:Originally posted by HabariTess: ^Anything to claim Africans huh? You guys must have some serious self-hate to be so envious of African features. It aint bad being european(or whatever eurasian mix).
Caucasoid features did not evolve in Sub-Saharan Africa.
Sub-Saharan groups who have semi-Caucasoid features like the Ethiopians, Somali, Beja and to a lesser degree Tutsis, Nubians, Maasai, Fulanis etc got these features through gene-flow from Northern groups.
All these groups cluster genetically away from true Negroids and pull in the direction of Caucasoids. Indicative of their hybrid origins.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LOL Just to bust this moron's logic wide open, basically he is saying that there was a process of caca-soidization from the north into the south through I assume a process of miscegenation or admixture. However admixture works both ways. Why is it the case that "negroids" become more caca-soid through admixture only but NEVER the other way around with caca-soids becoming more negroid through admixture with them??!
I mean what are we to make of these peoples north of Sub-Sahara?:
"The female of forty-plus years of age from Grave 2 was examined by J. L. Angel who noted what he interpreted as a number of 'negroid' (not full negro) traits in the face. There is marked maxillary prognathism and the orbits may be described as rectangular, traits frequently used in forensic diagnosis of Negro crania..."--Al B. Wesolowsky
"They [Natufians] were clearly a Negroid people with wide faces flat-noses and long large heads."-- Sir Arthur Keith
"One can identify Negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters and in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers probably from Nubia via the predecesors of the Badarians and Tasians"-- J. L. Angel
By the Paironut's logic, this "caca-soidizing" of 'negroes' must have began far in the north in the Balkans, Turkey, and Levant! Clearly the peoples of these areas were hybrids. LOL Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
...
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
LMAO @ Cash-in-the-minus and Pamperhu running away from my previous posts. The poor guys are scared sh!tless.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:All Caucasoids evolved from Cro-Magnon, that was their ancestral Mediterranean racial type - olive skinned, wavy haired,
Again, you’re talking out of your neck; no one knows what generalized moderns looked like outside of their osteological traits. People allied with the immediate ancestors of Cro-Magnon 1 have been found all over the world, before Europe was even populated by modern humans. And like I said, their subsequent evolution was dictated by the environment they settled in.
You’re lying, again. Generalized humans looked little like modern Europeans. They had, on average, rectangular eye sockets, broadish faces, low vaults, receeding foreheads, and relatively broad noses, as indicated by the following graph (Grines 2007), where their confidence ellipse (red circle) gravitates towards the upper left corner.
On the whole, generalized moderns, including European UP remains had traits reminiscent of tropically adapted people, especially their limbs length, linearity as well as their nasal morphology (Trinkaus 1981, Holliday 1997, Franciscus 2003).
The South African Hofmeyer cranium, with its date of just 4000 years prior to the settling of Europe, proves that anatomically modern humans from Europe and certain areas in Africa looked alike (Grines 2007). Outside of Africa, in places such as the new world, this is demonstrated as well (Neves WA et al, 2005). If the Cockasian race is determined by having evolved from generalised moderns, the whole world would have to be Cock-asian.
quote:Cro-Magnon's penetrated North Africa and are linked to the Mechtoids/Proto-Mediterraneans and later Caspian culture, ancestral to the North African Berbers.
You have no idea what you’re talking about. So called ’’Mechtoid’’ status is not mutually exclusive with having tropical traits, nor can the same be said about European Upper Paleolithic people. So called ’’Mechtoid’’ Hassi el aBiod, Jebel Sahaba and Wadi Halfa specimen confirm this. ’’Mechtoid’’ is a temporal, not an ethnic designation, which is why populations with such traits are found all over North Africa, and why such traits are not not mutually exclusive with tropical traits.
- Only Caucasoids posess the highly evolved small microdont teeth (Coon 1962, 354).
No one denied that many West African people have megadont teeth. You said ’’blacks have the largest teeth’’. Prove it by providing data of populations over the world.
quote:The Masai have Caucasoid admixture - which is clearly visible.
Prove that this admixture is enough to cause their features by citing their lineages, and showing that such Eurasian lineages are in accord with their craniometric deviation from broad features Africans.
quote:They are gracile med because they are dolichocephalic, orthognathic with thin nasal holes - all Caucasoid features. In contrast Negroids have wide nasal holes and prognathism.
By simply regurgitating the same non-sense in response to something I’ve already addressed, I take it you’re throwing in the towel? Here try refuting this the next time, instead of stressing your beliefs:
No, YOU’RE the one who is overlooking facts. Just like gracialisation occurred globally, nasal indices changed according to the climate in which each of the generalised moderns settled, not because Europeans were there to regulate it worldwide with their genes. Hence, remains that look like ’’Gracile Meds’’, whether found among Amerindians, Africans, or Indians, doesn’t require the presence of actual Mediterraneans.
quote:You ignore the 33 (or whatever figure i posted before) hair samples we have on badarian crania.
None is wooly.
So the Badarians were not wooly haired, but wavy haired like Caucasoids.
LOL at this slimy snake, going back and forth between already refuted arguments.
First he says they’re caucasoid because their hair is wavy:
quote:Regarding Badarian hair -
wavy in 33 cases curly in 6 cases straight in 10 cases no wooly
Clearly not Negroid. No nappy hair...
Then, when I compare their hair to (genetically predominantly African) Somali’s who present the similar proportions of wavy, straight and curly hair forms, he says I’m overlooking Badarian crania, and that their crania indicate that they’re a mixture of races:
quote:Again you are distorting the sources. The badarian crania belong to different races.
Then, when showed him 80%+ of their crania were correctly assigned to the series to which they belong, and that none went into the known hybrid E-series, he wants to go back to talk about Badarian hair again, even though I’ve just demonstrated it’s no different from Somali hair, and even though he chickened out of addressing my argument that Badaria hair is no different from Somali hair:
quote:You ignore the 33 (or whatever figure i posted before) hair samples we have on badarian crania.
None is wooly.
This dude is literally arguing in circles, lol. A few days ago he was talking about how ''negroids'' have the least sexual dimorphism, and Europeans the most. Well, if that’s the case, Badarians are as African as it gets, and have nothing to do with Europeans, per your own description of what is characteristically European.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Either their scared or their psychosis prevents them from accepting let alone retaining valid info.
quote:Originally posted by Castrated: All Caucasoids evolved from Cro-Magnon, that was their ancestral Mediterranean racial type - olive skinned, wavy haired,
And you can tell such traits as skin complexion and hair type from skeletal remains only??! LMAO
As for actual traits you can find on skeletal remains, here is what is said about Cro-Magnon:
"...Nor does the picture get any clearer when we move on to the Cro-Magnons, the presumed ancestors of modern Europeans. Some were more like present-day (aboriginal) Australians or Africans, judged by objective anatomical observations."
LOL So much for Mediterranean caca-soid.
Oh yeah and let's not forget my last post addressing gracilization which you call "cacasoidization" but never any 'negritization'. Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
^ We have a 26k year old Cro-Magnon bust. It has wavy-straight hair, and no prognathism. Its been posted on this forum by Simplegirl, but the afronuts just continue to ignore it because it looks most like a modern white man.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ And again I ask, how do you reconstruct traits like hair form and skin complexion from bone, you nitwit?? Neither have you answered my questions on "negritization" nor Swenet's questions.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ^ We have a 26k year old Cro-Magnon bust. It has wavy-straight hair, and no prognathism. Its been posted on this forum by Simplegirl, but the afronuts just continue to ignore it because it looks most like a modern white man.
^dumbass, you mean that fraudulent piece of sh!t Madildo touted around?
Dumb ass Cash-in-the-minus and pimpleton need to take a look at prehistoric Venus figurines, and explain how such depictions corroborate wavy hair delusions.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Indeed. More Euronut fantasies in portraying their Cro-Magnon ancestors as themselves. At least it's not as nutty as portraying other peoples' ancestors as themselves.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^dumbass, you mean that fraudulent piece of sh!t Madildo touted around?
I'm on your side of the argument over whether the first Cro-Magnon people were tropically adapted, but if I may play devil's advocate again, what makes you think the bust is fake?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ I'm sure the bust is real in the sense that it was made by actual forensic experts, but that doesn't mean it is accurate. Were these experts double-blinded? Do they even know what to make of Paleolithic traits? And surely hair form and skin color are out of the question. That's my deal.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I'm sure the bust is real in the sense that it was made by actual forensic experts, but that doesn't mean it is accurate. Were these experts double-blinded? Do they even know what to make of Paleolithic traits? And surely hair form and skin color are out of the question. That's my deal.
I was referring to the ivory bust which is said to be 26,000 years old.
That said, even if the bust is authentic, the "hair" looks like it could be a fur hood to me.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^dumbass, you mean that fraudulent piece of sh!t Madildo touted around?
I'm on your side of the argument over whether the first Cro-Magnon people were tropically adapted, but if I may play devil's advocate again, what makes you think the bust is fake?
Because almost all ancient artefacts that seem to be way ahead of their time, that are originally touted as coo-coo zoid (think some of the North African cave art depictions for example), turn out to be either false, or significantly younger than originally reported.
If proponants are so sure that its authentic, and that it dates to 26.000 bp, they should have no problem reproducing contemporary art that looks that modern. The piece has ''incongruent'' and ''anachronistic'' written all over it.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
Dumb ass Cash-in-the-minus and pimpleton need to take a look at prehistoric Venus figurines, and explain how such depictions corroborate wavy hair delusions. [/QB]
The Venus figurines are wearing hair nets.
Secondly the afronut claim they have steatopygia is debunked in my thread here -
White woman with thin buttocks can produce the same appearance of the Venus figurines from looking down at an aerial perspective.
See the photos in the thread i linked. They compared a 30 year old Caucasian female to the venus figures from an aerial perspective and both look identical.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^So what you're saying is, women all over prehistoric Europe decided to depict themselves through their own eyes, wearing hair nets?
Yeah, definitely more credible than the straight forward explanation that it was simply the phenotype of the subject that was depicted, whether the subject was a deity, or a person:
The Ivory Head The palaeolithic settlement of Dolní Věstonice Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Guys, perhaps you should discuss all this in a topic of its own in the Ancient Egypt section. This thread here is about wavy hair among Egyptians & Nubians!
As usual you let the castrated idiot bait you off track! It ain't gonna work, castrated one!
quote:Originally posted by castrated: The Venus figurines are wearing hair nets.
ROTFLOL
Yes, Paleolithic women of Europe wore hairnets like lunch ladies I take it too keep their hair from going into the food they cooked and served.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
It isn't necessarily off track, as this issue is a natural one to tackle, for the discussion to progress.
His stance that wavy Egypto-Nubian hair was Coo-coo-zoid led to the exploration of what a coo-coo-zoid really is. According to Cash-in-the-minus, they originated from the being off-shoots of ''Cro-magnons''. The nut then sees the features (long hair, light skin) of the UP figurine as a continuation of modern straight/wavy haired coo-coo-zoids, even though the bust obviouslly doesn't sport a narrow nose, which he has claimed earlier as characteristically Cro-magnon. Of course, this further contradicts his schizophrenic case.
Posted by AGÜEYBANÁ(Mind718) (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^dumbass, you mean that fraudulent piece of sh!t Madildo touted around?
I'm on your side of the argument over whether the first Cro-Magnon people were tropically adapted, but if I may play devil's advocate again, what makes you think the bust is fake?
Because almost all ancient artefacts that seem to be way ahead of their time, that are originally touted as coo-coo zoid (think some of the North African cave art depictions for example), turn out to be either false, or significantly younger than originally reported.
If proponants are so sure that its authentic, and that it dates to 26.000 bp, they should have no problem reproducing contemporary art that looks that modern. The piece has ''incongruent'' and ''anachronistic'' written all over it.
I had the same skepticism the first time around that bust was touted a few years back as cro-magnon 26kya, after some research there were scientists who felt the same way, in essence it doesn't fit in with other art from the same period at all or even later periods, figurines were still not that modern looking. I remember reading about how it was made to promote the Neanderthal geneflow into AMH in Europe during the early 19th century.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^Bump for the Lioness and others interested in exploring (and hopefully adding to) this thread.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^ no, for Firewall
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
Joann Fletcher, a consultant to the Bioanthropology Foundation in the UK, in what she calls an "absolute, thorough study of all ancient Egyptian hair samples" — relied on various techniques, such as electron microscopy and chromatography to analyze hair samples (Parks, 2000). She discovered that most of the natural hair types and those used for hairpieces were made of what she calls "Caucasian-type" hair, including even instances of blonde and red hair.
"The vast majority of hair samples discovered at the site were cynotrichous (Caucasian) in type as opposed to heliotrichous (Negroid), a feature which is standard through dynastic times." - Fletcher, Joann. (2002). "Ancient Egyptian Hair and Wigs", The Ostracon: The Journal of the Egyptian Study Society, xiii. 2.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^Circular reasoning: ''Wavy-straight hair is caucasian because its caucasian, and kinky hair is negroid because its negroid''.
quote:Circular reasoning is an attempt to support a statement by simply repeating the statement in different or stronger terms. In this fallacy, the reason given is nothing more than a restatement of the conclusion that poses as the reason for the conclusion.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
^ No dummy.
Wavy-straight hair is not an adaptation to Africa.
The most recent studies on the origin of wavy-straight hair have linked it to low-UV northern latitudes.
Iyengar B (1998) The hair follicle: a specialized UV receptor in the human skin? Biol Signals Recept 7:188–194 26.
Africa recieves the highest levels of UV radiation, so straight hair certainly didn't appear there. The hair of indigenous Africans is crisp or wooly.
Also - you have a huge problem if you want to claim "Blacks have straight hair" since if you look at Africa, the entire continent has the same high level of UV (look up Solar UV Index per country). Historically the only places straight hair appeared (e.g. around 5,000 BC) was in the Horn, and North Africa - the places Caucasoids settled. Straighter hair was just brought with them. Cymotrichous hair is Caucasoid.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^Circular reasoning: ''Wavy-straight hair is caucasian because its caucasian, and kinky hair is negroid because its negroid''.
quote:Circular reasoning is an attempt to support a statement by simply repeating the statement in different or stronger terms. In this fallacy, the reason given is nothing more than a restatement of the conclusion that poses as the reason for the conclusion.
Btw, do you have straight hair and a thin nose?
Its always amusing you afroloons who spam the internet claiming "Blacks have straight hair!" have the 'true negroid' phenotype yourselves. Just take a look at Clyde Winters, Charlie Bass etcetc. Your obsession with claiming Blacks have straight hair is nothing more than your self-hatred complex for your Negroid traits.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^Circular reasoning: ''Wavy-straight hair is caucasian because its caucasian, and kinky hair is negroid because its negroid''.
quote:Circular reasoning is an attempt to support a statement by simply repeating the statement in different or stronger terms. In this fallacy, the reason given is nothing more than a restatement of the conclusion that poses as the reason for the conclusion.
Btw, do you have straight hair and a thin nose?
Its always amusing you afroloons who spam the internet claiming "Blacks have straight hair!" have the 'true negroid' phenotype yourselves. Just take a look at Clyde Winters, Charlie Bass etcetc. Your obsession with claiming Blacks have straight hair is nothing more than your self-hatred complex for your Negroid traits.
This Tamil man has 'Negroid' craniofacial features
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
^ That man isn't "Black". And i've personally known Indians darker, and yet they acknowledge the fact they have Caucasoid bone structure.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: [QB] ^ No dummy.
Wavy-straight hair is not an adaptation to Africa.
If it isn't then why do people in Arabia and the Levant have this hair type? Do you even realize that Egypt and Northern Sudan are at the same lattitude as most of the Middle East? You're just reasoning in circles. Just give it up. Egyptians have been in the Sahara for about as long as Europe has been populated by AMHs. Whatever the reason is that West Asians have this hair type, if its linked to ecology (which you've just admitted), then the same hair types should be expected in Egypt and Northern Sudan, as what we see in Arabia and the Levant.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: ^ That man isn't "Black". And i've personally known Indians darker, and yet they acknowledge the fact they have Caucasoid bone structure.
the man above is not Indians you have known. He is a specific individual Tamil person with Negroid facial features and straight hair
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: [QB] ^ No dummy.
Wavy-straight hair is not an adaptation to Africa.
If it isn't then why do people in Arabia and the Levant have this hair type? Do you even realize that Egypt and Northern Sudan are at the same lattitude as most of the Middle East? You're just reasoning in circles. Just give it up. Egyptians have been in the Sahara for about as long as Europe has been populated by AMHs. Whatever the reason is that West Asians have this hair type, if its linked to ecology (which you've just admitted), then the same hair types should be expected in Egypt and Northern Sudan, as what we see in Arabia and the Levant.
Annual UV radition levels (UV Index):
The hair type of the natives of Yemen:
Its not wooly, but extremely curly, bordering frizzy.
There is a clear link between latitude (UV index) and hair texture.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^Thanks for single handedly destroying yourself. Its not hard to imagine that hair type in more Northern regions (relative to Yemen) could easily produce more looser hair than what's visible on the head of that guy you've posted. Keep showing your mental retardation by proving my point.
LMAO. Get this: Modo-face calls common curly hair like this ''extremely curly'' and ''bordering frizzy'':
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
Here's something even more inconvenient for Farthead's hypothesis: Tasmanian aborigines
Imagine that, Tasmanians living in a "temperate" latitude having kinky hair. And they've been living that far away from the Equator for 40,000 years.
Seriously, it is odd that people living so far away from the Equator kept their dark skin and other "black" physical features...
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Arguing with Faheem is pointless because he a very rigid white nationalist fanatic, future Hitler and consistently ignores contrary information. I however take it all into account. For example my current position in Almoravids is that maybe they didn't invade Ghana save for some raids.
Anyway Tasmania is around 45 South Latitude At a similar latitude to the North is France that is bisected by 45 North latitude similarly , South Dakota
Tasmania is neither very hot or humid. The hair of the people above appears to afro, perhaps approaching curly. Sometimes curly hair looks like an afro when it is cut very short but there are Australians with full afros type hair but also straight wavy Why isn't their hair straighter? Why are their noses so broad? I can't explain it. Are such things random and not related to the environment? Some of the American Indians of the North are quite dark, another exception. Perhaps they weren't there long enough for the skin mutation for depigmenation to occur. - but are you then prepared to say skin depigmentation has no relation to latitude? But a general pattern we see in the North hemisphere is a lack of afro hair. Despite the Tasmanian exception I continue to believe that straight hair is a mutation that occurs in colder climates because it's all over the Northern hemisphere. Hair that grows flatly and long is warmer and if grown long more easily covers the back of the neck. Some of these mutations don't start occurring immediately. People have to be in the region for thousands of years before such mutations even start. Europeans for example are not thought to have developed pale skin only within the last 6-12,000 years yet have been in colder climates over 40,000 years. So taking the older figure 12k and taking 40-45kya origin = about 30,000 years for the depigmentation to occur Also some of the people in New Zealand and Australians have some unique metabolic adaptations to colder night time temperatures, so sometimes people develop different adaptations to similar conditions
The New Student's Reference Work: Volume 1" by Chandler B. Beach, Frank Morton McMurry and others.
1 North Australian 2 North Australian Woman 3 South Australian Woman 4 South Australian, Moroya
Tribe 5 Tasmanian Woman 6 Aboriginal of New Guinea 7 Fiji Chief 8 Fiji Girl
9 Assachoreter of Taling 10 Tonga Girl of New Caledonia 11 Man of
another possibility is that some Tasmanians/ Australians go back 35,000 years while others in Tasmania and Australians had ancestry that is more recent and they have deeper ancestry in the papua New Guinea region. This seems to me a reasonable explanation. If you are looking at ancient bones you can't tell the hair. So if we look at some of these photos of the last Tasmanian aboriginal they are not necessarily the same Tasmanian remains that are 30 + kya. They might be later Tasmanians who a few thousand years ago came from the much more equatorial Papua/ Solomon Island regions. That seems to me a likely possibility
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote: Originally posted by lioness,: Tasmania is neither very hot or humid. The hair of the people above appears to afro, perhaps approaching curly. Sometimes curly hair looks like an afro when it is cut very short but there are Australians with full afros type hair but also straight wavy Why isn't their hair straighter? Why are their noses so broad? I can't explain it. Are such things random and not related to the environment? Some of the American Indians of the North are quite dark, another exception. Perhaps they weren't there long enough for the skin mutation for depigmenation to occur. - but are you then prepared to say skin depigmentation has no relation to latitude? But a general pattern we see in the North hemisphere is a lack of afro hair. Despite the Tasmanian exception I continue to believe that straight hair is a mutation that occurs in colder climates because it's all over the Northern hemisphere. Hair that grows flatly and long is warmer and if grown long more easily covers the back of the neck. Some of these mutations don't start occurring immediately. People have to be in the region for thousands of years before such mutations even start. Europeans for example are not thought to have developed pale skin only within the last 6-12,000 years yet have been in colder climates over 40,000 years. So taking the older figure 12k and taking 40-45kya origin = about 30,000 years for the depigmentation to occur Also some of the people in New Zealand and Australians have some unique metabolic adaptations to colder night time temperatures, so sometimes people develop different adaptations to similar conditions
I like how lioness is learning and (seemingly) coming around. BTW, it might be useful to first tease out where these peoples' ancestors lived before we use them as examples that confirm or fly in the face of commonly accepted selective presures. For example, looking at present day arid conditions in Australia might cause one to suspect that Australian are an exception to the dry ambient air explanation that is commonly accepted as a selective presure that selects for narrow(er) noses. However, Truthcentric and Djehuti recently posted information that suggests that Australian aboriginals lived mostly in wet and tropical areas, which would mean that their phenotype is not in violation of commonly accepted principles.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:and yet they acknowledge the fact they have Caucasoid bone structure.
And when we return back to reality, this is where indians cluster:
In this analysis, Indians and Asians are equidistant to Europe. And you called whom a 'lumper'?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: However, Truthcentric and Djehuti recently posted information that suggests that Australian aboriginals lived mostly in wet and tropical areas, which would mean that their phenotype is not in violation of commonly accepted principles. [/QB]
yet Truthcentric in his last post seemingly hiding the truth of that. used the Tasmanian's temperate latitude to take exception.
I haven't seen that info lately. It seems those areas were not tropical, just more forested than the inland arid regions. Austailian's wavy straight hair has been noted. I prefer my theory. Aboriginal Austrailans or Tasmanians who have more kinky hair are not the particular Austrailans or Tasmanians who lived longest in those areas. They are the ones who came relatively more recently from the Papua NG/Solomon areas. "recent' meaning within a couple thousand years or less Tasmania was inhabited by an indigenous population, the Evidence indicates Tasmanian Aborigines,presence in the territory, later to become an island, at least 35,000 years ago.The history of Tasmania begins at the end of the most recent ice age (approximately 10,000 years ago) when it is believed that the island was joined to the Australian mainland
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: However, Truthcentric and Djehuti recently posted information that suggests that Australian aboriginals lived mostly in wet and tropical areas, which would mean that their phenotype is not in violation of commonly accepted principles. [/QB]
yet Truthcentric in his last post seemingly hiding that used the Tasmanian's temperate latitude to take exception and suggest violation of commonly accepted principles
I haven't seen that info lately. It seems those areas were not tropical, just more forested than the inland arid regions. Austailian's wavy straight hair has been noted. I prefer my theory. Aboriginal Austrailans or Tasmanians who have more kinky hair are not the particular Austrailans or Tasmanians who lived longest in those areas. They are the ones who came relatively more recently from the Papua NG/Solomon areas. "recent' meaning within a couple thousand years or less Tasmania was inhabited by an indigenous population, the Evidence indicates Tasmanian Aborigines,presence in the territory, later to become an island, at least 35,000 years ago.The history of Tasmania begins at the end of the most recent ice age (approximately 10,000 years ago) when it is believed that the island was joined to the Australian mainland
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^Thanks for single handedly destroying yourself. Its not hard to imagine that hair type in more Northern regions (relative to Yemen) could easily produce more looser hair than what's visible on the head of that guy you've posted. Keep showing your mental retardation by proving my point.
LMAO. Get this: Modo-face calls common curly hair like this ''extremely curly'' and ''bordering frizzy'':
Is his hair anywhere near straight idiot? Show someone native with straight hair at that latitude. You are the one claiming "Blacks have straight hair" yet can't produce a single piece of evidence and in the process are denying peer-reviewed studies which have confirmed the link between UV index and hair texture.
Yes, 'looser' hair textures are found at that latitude. No one ever denied that. These hair types are though extremely curly or frizzy. This was even admitted by Snowden. And even other Afroloons on this site don't claim "Blacks have straight hair". Troll Patrol for example claimed African hair is only a loose as frizzy. You're basically in the extreme looney bin with Mike111.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: [QB] Here's something even more inconvenient for Farthead's hypothesis: Tasmanian aborigines
The Tasmanid phenotype is probably a cross between Murrayian and Negritic. This was the theory of Joseph Birdsell.
Birdsell JB (1949) The Racial Origin of the Extinct Tasmanians. Records of the Queen Victoria Museum 2:105-122.
Birdsell JB (1967) Preliminary data on the trihybrid origin of the Australian Aborigines. Archaeology and Physical Anthropology in Oceania 2:100-155
Further evidence is the fact the Tasmanian language has been proposed to be Indo-Pacific, which does not contain languages of the Australian aborigines (so this supports the idea Negritos moved in from the north around New Guinea bringing a new language with them).
quote:and yet they acknowledge the fact they have Caucasoid bone structure.
And when we return back to reality, this is where indians cluster:
In this analysis, Indians and Asians are equidistant to Europe. And you called whom a 'lumper'?
I don't lump, I classify as individuals. Those population-average studies prove nothing.
"Four morphological types — Australoids, Negritos, Mongoloids and Caucasoids — have been discerned in the contemporary Indian population. The Australoids appear to be the oldest and have evolved in India. The Caucasoids are physically heterogeneous and suggests incorporation of more than one physical type involving more than one migration. The within-type variance compared to between-type variance for characters studied is smaller. The paper further discusses the observed variability in terms of Indian social organization as well as in terms of endogamy, small numerical strength of the groups and varying ecological conditions prevalent in India." - K.C. Malhotra. (1978). "Morphological composition of the people of India". J. Hum. Evol. 7. pp. 45-53.
Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
Great thread..missed this one.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
According to the Farthead, these Sri-Lankan ladies above aren't 'black' because they have long loose hair. As if the label 'black' is based on hair type instead of skin color. Remember on another thread he dismissed the portraits of ancient Egyptians with mahogany complexions as being not black because their skin though very dark is not black enough. Now we have Indians above whose skin does match his examples of 'negroid' color. Note also the features of the Indians. This reminds me of Greco-Roman writers who called southern Indians 'Eastern Ethiopians' who were said to be the same in looks as the Western Ethiopians of Libya (Africa) except that they have long straight hair.
This all proves the point that Farthead relies totally on arbitrary classifications.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:As if the label 'black' is based on hair type instead of skin color.
Racial nomenclature is just a label, the label itself need not provide a valid description. This is basic biology. Even if you look at most subspecies names, you can find in cases something called "blacki"/"black" (as a suffix) and yet that geographical race may have not a single individual member who is very dark.
Quite obviously the females posted above are not "Black". They aren't Negroid.
And note the sheer hypocrisy in your views. You will label people with dark skin "black" solely on their skin, but why prioritise that feature? Why don't you base your classification on hair texture or nasal index? The obvious reason is because if you did that, they would always be seperated to Negroids and that wouldn't suite your Afrocentric agenda.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Feehmdom
quote:Quite obviously the females posted above are not "Black". They aren't Negroid. And note the sheer hypocrisy in your views. You will label people with dark skin "black" solely on their skin, but why prioritise that feature? Why don't you base your classification on hair texture or nasal index? The obvious reason is because if you did that, they would always be seperated to Negroids and that wouldn't suite your Afrocentric agenda.
Topic: Why we don't play the caucasus and other -oid games http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=004651 People who play oid games such as Negr-OID Cacas-OID, Mongol-OID end up as Ret-OIDS,the same goes for IDs like Bant-IDS,Ethio-IDS Med-IDS are just plain Stoop-ID
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Remind me again. What is a Caucasoid....?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: peer-reviewed studies which have confirmed the link between UV index and hair texture.
the theory is that kinky hair is related to high humidity and that people of the savannas were formerly frorm jungle areas. Straight hair is believed to be an adaptation to cold temperatures rather than UV
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
RECAP
Ancient Egyptian hair
Across the web assorted "biodiversity" proponents, wage a 'racial war' using hair studies of ancient Egyptians to prove a "Caucasian Egypt". But in fact the hair of Africans is highly variable, debunking their simplistic claims.
The hair of Africans is highly variable, ranging from tight curls of South African Bantu, to the loose curls and straight hair of peoples of East and NE Africa, all indigenously evolved over millennia as part of Africa’s high genetic diversity. This diversity undermines and ultimately dismisses simplistic "racial" claims based on hair.
Inconsistencies of the skewed "true negro" model and definitions of African hair
Dubious assertions, double standards and outmoded racial hair claims: Czech anthropologist Strouhal's 1971 study touched on hair, and advanced the most extreme racial definitions, claiming Nubians to be white Europids overrun by later waves of Negroes, and that few Negroes appeared in Egypt until the New Kingdom. Indeed, Strouhal went so far as to argue that 'Negroes' failed to survive long in Egypt, because they were ill-adapted to its arid climate! Tell that to the Saharans, Sudanese and Nubians! Such dubious claims have been thoroughly debunked by modern scholarship, however they continue in various guises by those who attempt to use "hair" to assign race 'percents' and categories to the ancients. Attempts to define racial categories based on the ancient hair rely heavily on extreme definitions, with "Negroids" typically being defined as narrowly as possible. Everything not meeting the extreme "type" is then classified as something else, such as "Caucasian".
Kieta (1990, Studies of Crania from Northern Africa) notes that while many scholars in the field have used an extreme "true negro" definition for African peoples, few have attempted to apply the same model in reverse and define a "true white." Such racial double standards are typical of much scholarship on the ancient Nile Valley peoples. A consistent approach for example would define the straight hair in Strouhal's hair sample as an exclusive Caucasian marker (10 out of 49 or approximately 20%) and make the rest (wavy and curled) hybrid or negro, at >80%. Assorted writers who support the Aryan race percent model however, are careful to avoid such consistency and typically only run the comparison one way.
QUOTE: "Strouhal (1971) microscopically examined some hair which had been preserved on a Badarian skull. The analysis was interpreted as suggesting a stereotypical tropical African-European hybrid (mulatto). However this hair is grossly no different from that of Fulani, some Kanuri, or Somali and does not require a gene flow explanation any more than curly hair in Greece necessarily does. Extremely "wooly" hair is not the only kind native to tropical Africa.." (S. O. Y. Keita. (1993). "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54)
Disturbing attempts to use hair to prove race theories:
Fletcher (2002) in Egyptian Hair and Wigs, gives an example of what she calls "disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender" involving 1800s European researcher F. Petrie, who sometimes sought to use excavation reports to prove his theories of Aegean settlers flowing into Egypt. Such disturbing attempts continue today in the use of hair for race category or percentage claims involving the ancient peoples, such as the "racial" analysis seen on several Internet blogs and websites, some thinly disguised fronts for neo-nazi groups or sympathizers.
Hair study applied a stereotyped "true negro" model and used late period samples of Egypt, after the coming of Greeks, Hyskos, etc as "representative" excluding the previous 2500 years of ancient civilization. A study of the hair of Egyptian mummies by Czech anthropologists Titlbachova and Titllbach (1977) (reported in Strouhal 1977) using only late period samples found a wide range of hair in mummies. Of the 14 samples, only 4 were from the south of Egypt, and none of the 14 samples were earlier than the 18th Dynasty. Essentially the previous 2,000 years + of Egyptain civilization and peopling are not represented. Only the narrowest definition is used to identify 'true negro' types'. All other intermediate types were deemed 'non-negroid.' If a similar procedure is used in reverse and designates only straight hair as a marker of a European, then only 4 out of 14 or 29% of the samples can be deemed "Caucasoid." Below is a breakdown of the Czech data:
Sample# 5- 18th-21st dynasties- Deir el medina- curly Sample# 8- 21st-25th dynasties- hair looks straight Sample# 11- Late to Greek Period- hair partly wavy Sample# 18- Late period Egypt- hair fine diameter Sample# 19- Greek period- wavy hair Sample# 29- 18-21st Dynasties- Deir El Medina- hair shape unascertainable - south Sample# 31- 18-21st dynasties- Deir El Median- wavy to curly - south Sample# 33- 21st-25th dynasties- appears straight Sample# 34- 21st-25th dynasties- shape difficult to determine Sample# 35- 21st-25th dynasties- wavy shape Sample# 40- 21-25th Dynasties- hair curly, Sample# 44- 21-25th Dynasties- appears straight Sample# 45- 21-25th Dynasties- appears wavy Sample# 46- Kharga Oasis- 4th-5th centuries AD
Using modern technology, the same Aryan Race models are undercut with the data actually showing that Egyptians group closer to Africans than vaunted white Nordics.
[1]"Nordic hair measurements"[/i]
Neo-Nazis and sympathizers tout the work of German researcher Pruner-Bey in the 1800s which derived racial indexes of hair including Negroes, Egyptians and Germans. Germanic hair is closer to that of the Egyptians they assert. But is it as they claim?
(Data of Bruner-Bey 1864- 'On human hair as a race character') - Negroid index: 57.40 - Egyptian index: 69.94 - White Germans: 66.33 Neo-Nazi conclusion: White German Nordics are 'closer' to Egyptians
Modern data using electron microscopes- Conti-Fuhrman & Massa (1972). Massa and Masali (1980)
Compare to Pruner Bey's 1864 data: - Negroid index: 57.40 - Egyptian index: 60.02 (modern electron microscope data)
White Germans: 66.33 ___________________________________________ ___________________________________ Conclusion using modern microscope data: Negroes much ‘closer’ to Egyptians than Nordics ___________________________________________ ___________________________________________ _______________
Using hair for race identification as older research does can be shaky, but even when used, it undercuts ‘Aryan” clams as shown above.
Fletcher 2002 decries “"disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender..” Other credible scientists note:
"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories. Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable". --Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2
Environmental factors can influence hair color, and the Egyptians routinely placed hair from different sources in mummy wrappings, making claims of "Nordic-haired" or "white" Egyptians dubious.
Mummification practices and dyeing of hair. Hair studies of mummies note that color is often influenced by environmental factors at burial sites. Brothwell and Spearman (1963) point out that reddish-brown ancient color hair is usually the result of partial oxidation of the melanin pigment. Other causes of hair color "blonding" involve bleaching, caused by the alkaline in the mummification process. Color also varies due to the Egyptian practice of dyeing hair with henna. Other samples show individuals lightening the hair using vegetable colorants. Thus variations in hair color among mummies do not necessarily suggest the presence of blond or red-haired Europeans or Near Easterners flitting about Egypt before being mummified, but the influence of environmental factors.
Egyptian practice of putting locks of hair in mummy wrappings. Racial analysis is also made problematic by the Egyptian practice of burying hair, in many "votive or funerary deposits buried separately from the body, a practice found from Predynastic to Roman times despite its frequent omission from excavation reports." (Fletcher 2002) In examining hair samples Fletcher (2004) notes that care is needed to determine what is natural scalp hair, versus hair from a wig, versus hair extensions to natural locks. Tracking the exact source of hair is also critical since the Egyptians were known to have placed locks of hair from different sources among mummy wrappings. (The Search for Nefertiti, By Joann Fletcher, HarperCollins, 2004, p. 93-94, 96)
Egyptians shaved much of their natural hair off and used wigs extensively as covering, obtaining much of the hair for wigs through trade. Discoveries" of "Aryan" or 'Nordic" hair are thus hardly 'proof' of incoming Caucasoids, but may be simply hair purchased from some source and made into a wig. This is much less dramatic than the exciting picture of inflowing 'Aryan' hordes.
The ancient Egyptians shaved off much of their own natural hair as a matter of personal hygiene and custom, and wore wigs in public. According to the Encyclopedia of body adornment (Margo DeMello, 2007, Greenwood Publishing Group, p. 101), "Boys and girls until puberty wore their hair shaved except for a side locl left on the side of their head. Many adults- both men and women- also shaved their hair as a way of coping with heat and lice. However, adults did not go about bald, and instead wore wigs in public and in private.. Wigs were initially worn by the elites, but later worn by women of all classes.."
The widespread use of wigs in ancient Egypt thus complicates and contradicts attempts at 'racial' analysis. Fletcher (2002) shows that many Egyptian wigs have been found with what is defined as straighter 'cynotrichous' hair. This however is hardly a marker of massive European or Near Eastern presence or admixture. Fletcher notes that the Egyptians often eschewed their own personal hair, shaving carefully and using wigs widely. The hair for these wigs was often obtained through trade. Indeed, "hair itself being a valuable commodity ranked alongside gold and incense in account lists from the town of Kahun." Image gallery | Articles | Google
Egyptian trading links with other regions is well known, and a commodity like straighter 'cynotrichous' hair could have been easily obtained via the Sahara, Levant, the Maghreb, Mediterranean contacts, or even the hair of Asiatic war captives or casualties from Egypt's numerous conflicts. There is little need to postulate mass influxes of European admixtures or populations to account for hair types in wigs. The limb proportion studies of the ancient Egyptians showing them to be much more related to tropical types than to Europids, is further demonstration of the fallacy of using hair as 'proof' of a 'Aryan' or predominantly European admixed Egypt.
Nubian wigs and wigs in Egypt
Such exchanges or use of hair appear elsewhere in the Nile valley. Tomb finds show Nubians themselves wearing wigs of straight hair. But one Nubian from the Royal valley, of the 12th century, named Maherpra, was found to be wearing a wig himself, made up of tightly curled 'negroid' hair, on top of his natural covering (Fletcher 2002). The so-called "Nubian wig" also appears in Egyptian art relief's depicting daily life, a stylistic arrangement thought to imitate those found in southern Egypt or Nubia. Such wigs appear to have been popular with both Egyptians and Nubians. Fletcher 2004 notes that the famous queen Nefertiti made frequent use of the Nubian wig: "Nefertiti and her daughter seem to have set a trend for wearing the Nubian wig.. a coiffure first worn by Nubian mercenaries and clearly associated with the military." A detail of a wall scene in Theban tomb TT.55 shows the queen wearing the Nubian wig. Infantrymen from the Nubia. Note both bow and battle-axe carried into combat.
Nubian infantrymen shown with distinctive Nubian wig. From Deir el-Bahri, Temple of Hatshepsut New Kingdom, Eighteenth Dynasty, 1480 B.C.
Hair studies of Nubians show built-in African genetic variability
Hair studies of Nubians have also been undertaken. One study at Semna, in Nubia (Daniel Hrdy 1978- Analysis of Hair Samples of Mummies from Semna South, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, (1978) 49: 277-262), found curling patterns intermediate between Northwest European and African samples. The X-group, especially males, showed more African elements than the Meroitic in the curling variables. Crimping and curvature data patterned in a northwest Europe direction. These data plots however do not necessarily indicate race admixture or percentages, or the presence of European migrants or colonists (see Keita 2005 below), but rather a data pattern of variation in how hair curls, and native African diversity which cases substantial overlap with non-African groups. This is a routine occurrence within human groups.
Africa has the highest phenotypic variation, just as it has the highest geentic variation- accommodating a wide range of features for its peoples without the need for any "race mix: Relethford (2001) shows that ".. methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies." (Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5, October 2001, pp. 629-636) Hanihara 2003 notes that [significant] "..intraregional diversity are present in Subsaharan Africans.." While ancient Egypt had gene flow in various eras, hair variations easily fall under this pattern of built-in, indigenous diversity, as well as the above noted cultural practice of using wigs with hair from different places obtained through trade.
Among Europeans for example, some people have curlier hair and some have straighter hair than others. Various peoples of East and West Africa also have narrow noses, which are different from other peoples elsewhere in Africa, nevertheless they still remain Africans. DNA studies also note greater variation within selected populations that without. Since Africa has the highest genetic diversity in the world, such routine variation in characteristics such as hair need not indicate any racial percentage or admixture, but simply part of the built-in genetic diversity of the ancient peoples on the continent. Indeed, the Semna study author notes that blondism, especially in young children, is common in many dark-haired populations (e.g., Australian, Melanesian), and is still found in some Nubian villages. As regards hair color variation, reddish type hair is associated with the presence of pheomelanin, which can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well. See "Rameses" below. Albinism is another source of red hair.
Dubious attempts at 'racial analysis' using Nubian hair and crania. Assorted supporters of the stereotypical Aryan 'race' model attempt to use hair to argue for a predominantly 'white' Nubia. But as noted above, such attempts are dubious given built-in African genetic diversity. Often 'racial' hair claims attempt to link on with cranial studies purporting to match ancient Nubians with Swedes, Frenchmen, etc. But such claims are also dubious. In a detailed analysis of the Fordisc computer program used to put forward such claims, Williams, Armelagos, et al. (2005) found that the program created ludicrous "matches" between the ancient Nubian crania and peoples from Hungary, Japan, Easter Island and a host of others in far-flung regions! Their conclusion was that the diversity of human populations in the databank explained such wide ranging matches. Such objective mainstream analyses debunk obsolete and improbable claims of 'racial' migrations of alleged Frenchman, Hungarians, or other whites into ancient Nubia, or equally improbable racial 'percentages' supposedly quantifying such claims. (Frank l'engle Williams, Robert L. Belcher, and George J . Armelagos, "Forensic Misclassification of Ancient Nubian Crania: Implications for Assumptions about Human Variation," Current Anthropology, volume 46 (2005), pages 340-346)
Alleged massive influx of Europeans and Middle Easterners to give the ancient peoples hair variation did not happen. Such variation was already in place as part of Africa' built in genetic and phenotypic diversity. As regards diameter, the average diameter of the Semna sample was close to both the Northwest European and East African samples. This again suggests a range of built-in African indigenous variability, and calls into questions various migration theories to the Nile Valley. One study for example (Keita 2005) tested the model of C. Loring Brace (1993) as to the notion of incoming European migrants replacing indigenous peoples of the Nile Valley. Brace's work had also suggested a relationship between northwest Europeans such as Scandanavians and African peoples of the Horn. Data analysis failed to support this model, instead clustering samples much closer to African series than to Europeans. Keita concluded that similarities between African data in his survey (skulls, etc) and non-Africans was not due to gene flow, but a subset of built-in African variability.
Ancient Egyptians cluster much closer to other Egyptians and Nubians. A later study by Brace, (Brace 2005- The questionable contribution..) groups ancient Egyptian populations like the Naqada closer to Nubians and Somalis than European, Mediterranean or Middle Eastern populations, and places various Nubians samples closer to Tanzanian, Dahomeian, and Congoid data points than to Europeans and Middle easterners. The limb proportion studies of Zakrzewski (2003) (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.) showing the tropical body plan of the ancient Egyptians also undercuts theories of inflowing European or near Eastern colonists, or the 'native Europid' model of Strouhal (1971).
The yellowish-red-hair of Rameses: proof of a Nordic Egypt?
Red hair itself is within the range of African diversity or that of dark-skinned peoples. Native black Australoids for example routinely produce blonde hair:
Detailed microscopic analysis during the 1980s (Balout 1985) identified some of the hair of Egyptian Pharoah Rameses II as being a yellowish-red. Such a finding should not be surprising given the wide range of physical variability in Africa, the most genetically diverse region on earth, out of which flowed other population groups. Indeed, blondism and various other hair shades are not unknown in East Africa or Nubia, particularly in children, nor are such hair color variants uncommon in dark-haired or dark skinned populations like the Australians. (Hrdy 1978) Given the range of genetic variability in Africa, a red-haired Rameses is hardly unusual. Rameses' reign, in the 19th Dynasty, came over 1,500 years after the Egyptian state had been established, and after the Hyskos interlude. Such latecomers to Egypt, like the Hyskos, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs etc would add their own genetic strands to the nation’s mix. Whatever the blend of genes that occurred with Rameses, his hair offers little supposed "proof" of a "white" or "Nordic" Egypt. If anything, X-rays of the royal mummies from earlier Dynasties by mainstream scientists show that the Egyptians pharaohs and other royals had varied 'Negroid' leanings. See X-Rays of the Royal mummies here, or here.
Pheomelanin and Rameses- found in light and dark-haired populations: The finding of Rameses “red” hair also deserves further scrutiny. The analysis found evidence of dyeing to make the hair yellowish-red, but some elements were untouched by the dye. These elements of yellowish-red hair in Balout’s study, were established on the basis of the presence of pheomelanin, a red-brown polymeric pigment in the skin and hair of humans. However, pheomelanin can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well, which gives it a reddish hue. Most natural melanins contain sulfur, which is typically associated with pheomelanin. In scientific tests of melanin, black hair contained as much as 5% sulfur, 3% lower than the 8.8% found in Irish red hair, but exceeding the 2.3% found in Scandinavian blond hair. (Jolles, et al. 1996) Thus the yellowish-red hair discovered on Rameses is well within the range of human variation for dark haired people, whatever the exact gene combination that led to the condition.
Rameses hair was not a typical European red, but yellowish-red, within African variation. It was also not ultra straight, further undermining claims of "Nordic" influence. Somalians and Ethiopians are SUB-SAHARANS and they routinely produce straight-haired people without the need for any "race mix" to explain why. The analysis on Rameses also did not show classic "European" red hair but hair of a light red to yellowish tinge. Black haired or dark-skinned populations are quite capable of producing such yellowish-red color variants on their own, as can be seen in today's east and northeast Africa (see child's photo above). Nor is such color variation unusual to Africa. Native dark-skinned populations in Australia, routinely produce people with blond or reddish hair. As noted above, ultra diverse Africa is the original source of such variation.
The analysis also found the hair to be cymotrich or wavy, again a characteristic quite within the range of overall African or Nile valley physical and genetic diversity. A "pure" Nordic type of straight hair was thus not established for Rameses. Hence the notion of white Europeans or red-headed Caucasoids from other areas flowing into ancient Egypt to add hair variation, particularly the early centuries of the dynastic state is unlikely. Such flows may have occurred most heavily in the Greek and Roman era but say nothing about the thousands of years preceding. The presence of pheomelanin conditions or other genetic combinations also explains how the different hair used in Egyptian wigs could vary in color, aside from environmental oxidation, bleaching and dyeing.
Red hair is rare worldwide, and history shows little evidence of Northern Europeans or "Nordics" sweeping into Egypt to give the natives a bit of hair coloring or variation. Most red hair is found in northern and western Europe, especially in the British Isles, and even then it appears in minor frequencies in Europe- some 4% of the population. It is unlikely such populations had any major contact or influence in the ancient Nile Valley. As noted above, red hair is comparatively rare in the world’s populations and pheomelanin conditions are found in dark-haired populations, and thus is well within the range of variation from the Sahara, East Africa and the Nile valley. “White Aryan” theories of Egypt are seen in the works of HFK Gunther (1927), Archibald Sayce (1925) and Raymond Dart (1939), and still find traction on a number of 'Aryan', neo-nazi and "race" websites and blogs which purport to show a "white Nordic Egypt" using Rameses' "red" hair as an example. Today's scientific research however, has debunked these dubious views, showing that red hair, while not common world wide, is a well known variant within human populations, even those with dark hair.
Straight or curly hair is also routine among sub-Saharans like Somalians, who are firmly part of the East African populations. As regards Somalians for example, Somali DNA overwhelmingly links much more heavily with other Africans including Kenyans & Ethiopians (85%), than with Europeans & Middle Easterners. (15%) On Y-chromosome markers (E3b1), Somalis (77%) and other African populations dwarf small European (5.1%) or Middle Eastern (6.3%) frequencies. “The data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population..” (Sanchez et al., High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages.. in Somali males (2005)
As one mainstream researcher notes about the dubious value of "racial" hair analysis:
"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories. Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable". --Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
Why is Fletcher listed above as someone who opposes racial hair categorization?
Joann Fletcher, a consultant to the Bioanthropology Foundation in the UK, in what she calls an "absolute, thorough study of all ancient Egyptian hair samples" — relied on various techniques, such as electron microscopy and chromatography to analyze hair samples (Parks, 2000). She discovered that most of the natural hair types and those used for hairpieces were made of what she calls "Caucasian-type" hair, including even instances of blonde and red hair:
"The vast majority of hair samples discovered at the site were cynotrichous (Caucasian) in type as opposed to heliotrichous (Negroid), a feature which is standard through dynastic times." - Fletcher, Joann. (2002). "Ancient Egyptian Hair and Wigs", The Ostracon: The Journal of the Egyptian Study Society, xiii. 2.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fartheadbonkers:
quote:As if the label 'black' is based on hair type instead of skin color.
Racial nomenclature is just a label, the label itself need not provide a valid description. This is basic biology. Even if you look at most subspecies names, you can find in cases something called "blacki"/"black" (as a suffix) and yet that geographical race may have not a single individual member who is very dark.
Quite obviously the females posted above are not "Black". They aren't Negroid.
And note the sheer hypocrisy in your views. You will label people with dark skin "black" solely on their skin, but why prioritise that feature? Why don't you base your classification on hair texture or nasal index? The obvious reason is because if you did that, they would always be seperated to Negroids and that wouldn't suite your Afrocentric agenda.
WRONG again dummy! 'Racial nomenclature' is indeed a labeling system that is arbitrary. Though the label 'black' itself is NOT necessarily even a racial label so much as a descriptive one that describes color. 'Black' is used to label anyone with very dark coloring. Dark-skinned Indians especially the ones from the example I posted are often called 'kalu' by other Indians. Kalu means BLACK in Hindi language and other Sanskrit derived languages. That does not mean they are grouped with or classified with Africans as a racial group you moron! LOL Even the Greeks called southern Indians 'Ethiopians' as well, even though they did not claim any close genetic relation to the Ethiopians of Africa!
Pseudoscience often contradicts itself, even in its own terms.
Before the rise of racial categories and groupings, labels like 'black' were used to describe color only. Thus Black Indians, Black Africans, even Black Southeast Asians (aboriginals). But according to the Farthead idiot the label should be restricted to Sub-Saharan Africans meeting the criteria of 'true Negro' only even if other peoples are just as dark! LOL
You are a total retard and loser. It's a wonder how you were even able to get into a university. But then again the whole university systems even in Europe are overrated and academically degenerated. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: WRONG again dummy! 'Racial nomenclature' is indeed a labeling system that is arbitrary. Though the label 'black' itself is NOT necessarily even a racial label so much as a descriptive one that describes color. 'Black' is used to label anyone with very dark coloring. Dark-skinned Indians especially the ones from the example I posted are often called 'kalu' by other Indians. Kalu means BLACK in Hindi language and other Sanskrit derived languages. That does not mean they are grouped with or classified with Africans as a racial group you moron! LOL Even the Greeks called southern Indians 'Ethiopians' as well, even though they did not claim any close genetic relation to the Ethiopians of Africa!
Pseudoscience often contradicts itself, even in its own terms.
Before the rise of racial categories and groupings, labels like 'black' were used to describe color only. Thus Black Indians, Black Africans, even Black Southeast Asians (aboriginals). But according to the Farthead idiot the label should be restricted to Sub-Saharan Africans meeting the criteria of 'true Negro' only even if other peoples are just as dark! LOL
You are a total retard and loser. It's a wonder how you were even able to get into a university. But then again the whole university systems even in Europe are overrated and academically degenerated. [/QB]
The term "dark skinned' or brown is not good enough for Djehutie. He insists on "black".
Of course he doesn't mean black in the modern sense. Djehutie is an ancient person who was teleported here in a time machine. He doesn't go by our modern ways. He speaks in the ancient tongues.
So whenever he uses words you have to look up it's definition from 2500 years ago. as he strokes his long gray beard
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I like how lioness is learning and (seemingly) coming around. BTW, it might be useful to first tease out where these peoples' ancestors lived before we use them as examples that confirm or fly in the face of commonly accepted selective pressures. For example, looking at present day arid conditions in Australia might cause one to suspect that Australian are an exception to the dry ambient air explanation that is commonly accepted as a selective presure that selects for narrow(er) noses. However, Truthcentric and Djehuti recently posted information that suggests that Australian aboriginals lived mostly in wet and tropical areas, which would mean that their phenotype is not in violation of commonly accepted principles.
Keyword seemingly. I doubt lyinass will ever come around so long as her anti-black bias prevails. But getting back to Australia, I assume you are referring to the following data:
Climate Swings of the Pleistocene in Australia Over the last 2.6 million years the fluctuations of the climate have had a profound effect on the Australian continent, in particular on the surface water and the groundwater. The rivers of Australia, as well as the lakes and dunefields, have been greatly affected by the alternating nature of the climate over the last 300,000 years, swinging from dry periods to wet and back again. There were periods in the last 2 interglacials when fluvial conditions dominated that allowed large sand loads in rivers in the Simpson Desert, as well as southeast Australia. White describes the central Australian palaeochannels as 'highly competent sand-load rivers during the last interglacial'. 110,000 years ago was the peak of their fluvial activity, behind world temperature and sea level maxima by about 5,000-10,000 years.
Following this wet period, aridity spread towards the margins of the continent, the spread of aridity peaking at the last glacial maximum. Between about 55,000 and 35,000 BP a wet phase, that was less widespread, has been associated with high sea levels and activity of palaeochannels in southeastern Australia. The sedimentary record in rivers and lakes, and the time of dune formation, documents the spread of aridity from central Australia towards the coast across the continent...
Over the last 10,000 years, the Holocene, there have been variations of temperature and sea level. At about 9,000 BP the temperatures were higher than at the present in Australia, and there was increased rainfall. The highest the sea levels reached in the Holocene was from about 7,500-6,000 BP. Since then the sea levels have been approximately stable, though the fact that some low-lying islands are shrinking, with the sea encroaching on villages that have existed on the coast for many years suggests things might be changing.
'Ecosystem Collapse in Pleistocene Australia and a Human Role in Megafaunal Extinction' Gifford H. Miller
'Did central Australian megafaunal extinction coincide with abrupt ecosystem collapse or gradual climate change?' Murphy, BP and Williamson, GJ and Bowman
'Late pleistocene vegetation and environmental shifts in Australia and their bearing on faunal extinctions' J.R. Dodson
'Late Pleistocene and Holocene climate of SE Australia reconstructed from dust and river loads deposited offshore the River Murray Mouth' Franz Gingele, Patrick De Deckker, Marc Norman
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
"Why is Fletcher listed above as someone who opposes racial hair categorization?"
^^Because she does exactly that. She notes that hair is variable, and that hair from OTHER people like war captives or trade is often found mixed with a person's normal hair in mummy wrappings, and that such hair was an item of trade- quote:
"hair for these wigs was often obtained through trade. Indeed, "hair itself being a valuable commodity ranked alongside gold and incense in account lists from the town of Kahun."
So yes, so called cyniotrich hair appearing is nothing surprising, either as an add-on from someplace else or built-in native variability.
Fletcher debunks notions of "incoming Caucasoids" as already shown above:
"Fletcher (2002) in Egyptian Hair and Wigs, gives an example of what she calls- quote: "disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender" involving 1800s European researcher F. Petrie, who sometimes sought to use excavation reports to prove his theories of Aegean settlers flowing into Egypt.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Correct. Therefore Fletcher cannot be used or exploited for Euronut causes without being distorted.
quote:Originally posted by the desperate lyinass idiot ,: The term "dark skinned' or brown is not good enough for Djehutie. He insists on "black".
LOL Exactly how do I "insist" on a label that is already widely used by many peoples even outside of the West?? I don't see how the term "brown" could be used to describe the extremely dark folk like southern Sudanese or southern Indians.
quote:Of course he doesn't mean black in the modern sense. Djehutie is an ancient person who was teleported here in a time machine. He doesn't go by our modern ways. He speaks in the ancient tongues.
So whenever he uses words you have to look up it's definition from 2500 years ago. as he strokes his long gray beard
Of course your are writing crazy and stupid sh|t again as usual. You're just mad because you can't accept the REALITY that the descriptive label black is used by many peoples around the world.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: If we accept that wavier hair is an adaptation to drier climates as some people on this forums have submitted, then if AEs really did have wavy hair in significant numbers, that would give them ancient roots in the Sahara as Swenet has said. On the other hand, beyoku seems to be implying a recent sub-Saharan derivation for the AEs' ancestors.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Would have been a reasonable suspicion if it weren't for the fact that hair form is scientifically determined by measuring cross section width. Hair that is chemically treated for aesthetic reasons won’t change in cross section width (so presumably, hair that is altered by post-mortem chemical changes won't either).
I recall that the trichometer data showed cross-section widths within the "curlier" range for AE mummies, which doesn't exactly jive with your claim. Anyone remember this?
^Already adressed this:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:I take it you've probably read this article about Egyptian hair from Myra's site here. According to the authors, Strouhal's sample produced indices ranging from 35 to 65.
Reread my post. The writers of that article are being vague, and seem to be lacking in the math department. What the authors don't say, is that only 7/49=12% of the macroscopically analysed hairs were microscopically studied. The former analysis (macroscopic) is how Strouhal catagorized the strands in wavy, curly and straight catagories, the latter analysis (microscopic) is how he obtained his indices.
Of the total of 49 hair strands, only the so-called ''racially mixed'', strands were sent to be analysed. This means the straight hairs, and the numerically dominant wavy hairs, are not proportionally represented in that range.
Additionally, I have trouble understanding what type of math led the author to make an average out of a range that is described as ''35-65''.
Last time I checked, to produce an average, one needs to know all the individual scores, and that is precisely what Strouhal didn't report. With the Badarian average not bringing down the weight that is raised by 2 of the total 4 studies that report a wavy average (around 65%), but actually contributing to it, the overal average of 60% they report becomes questionable.
To calculate the average Egyptian index from those four papers, one cannot sloppily re-average the four averages. To produce an acceptable number, all indices of all four papers, must be added and divided by the total number of strands. Recalculation of the indices of the four papers is made impossible by the undisclosed indices, and unrepresentativeness of at least one paper (Strouhal's), but possibly others as well (not sure if the Italian paper they report is a different version than the one uploaded by Truthcentric, or a different paper altogether, so I'm restricting my comments to ''one''), so like I said, their work is questionable.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Yes, up for the lyinass dummy who keeps insisting that all wavy hair is the same and that it is a cold adaptation. Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
Fair enough, Swenet, the source I cited in the other thread was a poor one.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
Reread my post. The writers of that article are being vague, and seem to be lacking in the math department. What the authors don't say, is that only 7/49=12% of the macroscopically analysed hairs were microscopically studied. The former analysis (macroscopic) is how Strouhal catagorized the strands in wavy, curly and straight catagories, the latter analysis (microscopic) is how he obtained his indices.
Of the total of 49 hair strands, only the so-called ''racially mixed'', strands were sent to be analysed. This means the straight hairs, and the numerically dominant wavy hairs, are not proportionally represented in that range.
Additionally, I have trouble understanding what type of math led the author to make an average out of a range that is described as ''35-65''.
Last time I checked, to produce an average, one needs to know all the individual scores, and that is precisely what Strouhal didn't report. With the Badarian average not bringing down the weight that is raised by 2 of the total 4 studies that report a wavy average (around 65%), but actually contributing to it, the overal average of 60% they report becomes questionable.
To calculate the average Egyptian index from those four papers, one cannot sloppily re-average the four averages. To produce an acceptable number, all indices of all four papers, must be added and divided by the total number of strands. Recalculation of the indices of the four papers is made impossible by the undisclosed indices, and unrepresentativeness of at least one paper (Strouhal's), but possibly others as well (not sure if the Italian paper they report is a different version than the one uploaded by Truthcentric, or a different paper altogether, so I'm restricting my comments to ''one''), so like I said, their work is questionable.
LOL.It is obvious that you don't understand how to evaluate research literature, or the varied quantitative methods researchers use to look at data.It is this ignorance of research methods that explains you objections to the study discussed above.
The research looking at four studies is not questionable. It appears that the author used a meta-analysis to conduct the study. Meta-analysis is a quantitative research technique that is used to integrate and describe a number of research studies.
A meta-analysis is used to summarize multiple quantitative studies of a phenomena, in this case hair. Although you see this study "lacking in the math department", meta-analysis are recognized as an objective way to look at data.
.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^This is a perfect example of a non-response. Not a shred of connectivity to my post. But maybe Clyde can tell us how ''quantative methods'' allow one to make an average out of a range of seven cross section indices that is described as ''35-65''.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yes, up for the lyinass dummy who keeps insisting that all wavy hair is the same and that it is a cold adaptation.
Its an adaptation to low UV levels, hence northern latitudes.
Straight/wavy hair did not evolve in Africa.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ If wavy hair did not evolve in Africa or in any areas of the tropics where there is high UV, then why are there isolated (black) peoples in the Sahara, Sahel, and even Sub-Sahara who have wavy hair? How do you explain the wavy hair of southern Indians, some aboriginal populations in Southeast Asia and Australian aborigines who have tropical adaptations even to high UV i.e. black skin??
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^Thanks for single handedly destroying yourself. Its not hard to imagine that hair type in more Northern regions (relative to Yemen) could easily produce more looser hair than what's visible on the head of that guy you've posted. Keep showing your mental retardation by proving my point.
LMAO. Get this: Modo-face calls common curly hair like this ''extremely curly'' and ''bordering frizzy'':
Is his hair anywhere near straight idiot? Show someone native with straight hair at that latitude. You are the one claiming "Blacks have straight hair" yet can't produce a single piece of evidence and in the process are denying peer-reviewed studies which have confirmed the link between UV index and hair texture.
Yes, 'looser' hair textures are found at that latitude. No one ever denied that. These hair types are though extremely curly or frizzy. This was even admitted by Snowden. And even other Afroloons on this site don't claim "Blacks have straight hair". Troll Patrol for example claimed African hair is only a loose as frizzy. You're basically in the extreme looney bin with Mike111.
Fail. Try again ape. This time, reply to my post, will ya? Reiteration:
Its not hard to imagine that hair type in more Northern regions (relative to Yemen) [e.g., the Eastern Sahara] could easily produce more looser hair than what's visible on the head of that guy you've posted.
quote:yet can't produce a single piece of evidence
Its because you're using circular arguments. Its no use posting evidence when it will only result in you using the circular argument that whatever wavy haired African I post is ''not negroid'', because only nappy hair is signature negroid trait. Don't make me re-post your circular argument flip flop when you said blacks can't have brow ridges, and I posted 50 cent as an example of a black with this morphology, only for your ape-face to claim his brow ridge makes him caucasoid admixed.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ If wavy hair did not evolve in Africa or in any areas of the tropics where there is high UV, then why are there isolated (black) peoples in the Sahara, Sahel, and even Sub-Sahara who have wavy hair?
"Only the last two categories ['curly', 'spiralled'] are frequent in the the populations of sub-Saharan Africa, and spiralled hair, which may be more or less tightly spiralled, occurs in many more populations than curly hair... let us make it clear that the diversity discussed here is that of 'native' Africans" (Hiernaux, 1975: 53-54)
Snowden came to the same conclusion.
No anthropologist has ever asserted "Blacks have wavy/straight hair". It is simply absurd, its just an online fantasy of some AA's who have come to despise their nappy hair texture.
quote:How do you explain the wavy hair of southern Indians, some aboriginal populations in Southeast Asia and Australian aborigines who have tropical adaptations even to high UV i.e. black skin?? [/qb]
The natives of Southern India, and surrounding regions had woolly hair, "All the four major morphological types — Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Australoid and Negrito are present in the Indian population" (Malhotra 1978).
Its not hard to imagine that hair type in more Northern regions (relative to Yemen) [e.g., the Eastern Sahara] could easily produce more looser hair than what's visible on the head of that guy you've posted.
It's in the same UV cluster -
The whole of Africa recieves high UV radiation, which is in the bands 8-11. Excluding Arabia, the Middle-East is 4-7. Southern Europe is 3-5 and Northern Europe, 2-3.
The link between hair texture and UV is obvious. Wavy-straight hair isn't seen in natives of the band 8-11 [Mongoloids crossed over into the Americas only recent].
quote:Its because you're using circular arguments. Its no use posting evidence when it will only result in you using the circular argument that whatever wavy haired African I post is ''not negroid'', because only nappy hair is signature negroid trait. Don't make me re-post your circular argument flip flop when you said blacks can't have brow ridges, and I posted 50 cent as an example of a black with this morphology, only for your ape-face to claim his brow ridge makes him caucasoid admixed.
There's no circular reasoning evolved dummy. Racial traits are geographically circumscribed in origin. Wooly hair for example didn't evolve in Europe. Likewise thin noses didn't evolve in Africa. Afroloons reject biology & adaptation, and instead cling to the idea of a single african 'parent' which had all physical variation.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fartheadbonkers: "Only the last two categories ['curly', 'spiralled'] are frequent in the the populations of sub-Saharan Africa, and spiralled hair, which may be more or less tightly spiralled, occurs in many more populations than curly hair... let us make it clear that the diversity discussed here is that of 'native' Africans" (Hiernaux, 1975: 53-54)
Okay, and how is spiral haired being the most frequent refute that wavy hair is still native. The vast majority of Sub-Saharans have broad noses and are prognathic as well even though narrow noses and orthognathy still occur among native Africans as Hiernaux also stated yet YOU disagree with Hiernaux in those premises that narrow noses and orthognathy are 'Caucasoid' traits found in Sub-Sahara do to admixture! LOL
quote:Snowden came to the same conclusion.
Yet Snowden is NOT a bio-anthropologists but a Classicist. And nowhere in your citation of Hiernaux did he say wavy hair is not native at all, liar.
quote:No anthropologist has ever asserted "Blacks have wavy/straight hair". It is simply absurd, its just an online fantasy of some AA's who have come to despise their nappy hair texture.
Another lie.
"Dark [black] skin may be associated with frizzy or kinky hair or curly or wavy or straight hair, all of which are found among different indigenous peoples in tropical regions. These facts render any attempt to establish lines of division among biological populations both arbitrary and subjective."---American Anthropological Association Statement on "Race"
quote:The natives of Southern India, and surrounding regions had woolly hair, "All the four major morphological types — Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Australoid and Negrito are present in the Indian population" (Malhotra 1978).
LOL Not surprisingly this is the best you can come up with-- a statement from the 1970s using debunked notions of race which is the very false premise of your argument! And I know what 'Negritos' are, but sorry the people below are neither 'Negrito' nor 'Caucasoid' which don't really exst.
And we are talking about Africa. Explain how wavy hair among southern Saharans, Sahelians, and even certain folk in Uganda have wavy hair. You say it's 'Caucasoid' admixture yet genetics disproves such a suggestion.
I agree with Swenet. There's no arguing with you because you only have circular reasoning which is a FAIL for true logic.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
what's more attractive this hair:
.
or this thin limpness:
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Okay, and how is spiral haired being the most frequent refute that wavy hair is still native.
Wavy hair isn't native, and Hiernaux never wrote it was. Yes, he opposed the 'true Negroid' classification. However he wasn't an Afroloon.
quote:The vast majority of Sub-Saharans have broad noses and are prognathic as well even though narrow noses and orthognathy still occur among native Africans as Hiernaux also stated yet YOU disagree with Hiernaux in those premises that narrow noses and orthognathy are 'Caucasoid' traits found in Sub-Sahara do to admixture! LOL
Name an Upper Palaeolithic African fossil specimen with a low nasal index.
quote: These facts render any attempt to establish lines of division among biological populations both arbitrary and subjective.[/i]"---American Anthropological Association Statement on "Race"
Says nothing about Africa.
quote:Not surprisingly this is the best you can come up with-- a statement from the 1970s using debunked notions of race which is the very false premise of your argument! And I know what 'Negritos' are, but sorry the people below are neither 'Negrito' nor 'Caucasoid' which don't really exst.
lol. That's from the Indian Genome Variation Consortium from 2005:
"All the four major morphological types—Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Australoid and Negrito are present in the Indian population (Malhotra 1978). The Caucasoid and Mongoloid populations are mainly concentrated in the north and northeastern parts of the country. The Australoids are mostly confined to the central, western and southern India, while the Negritos are restricted only to the Andaman Islands (Cavalli Sforza et al. 1994)." - Indian Genome Variation Consortium (2005). A Project Overview. Human Genetics 118 (1): 1–11.
This isn't "outdated". Most modern Indian scientists believe in race.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: It's in the same UV cluster
It’s also in the same cluster as indigenous South Asians and Southeast Asians, many of whom have straighter hair than Europeans. What is your point?
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: There's no circular reasoning evolved dummy.
There IS circular reasoning involved, fruity loop. There is no apriori evidence for the existence of an archetypical Negroid group with exclusively 'Negroid traits', which means there is no basis for your fairytale that any West/Central/Southern/Eastern African group that diverges from this imaginary group must therefore not descend from this Negroid group, and must therefore be admixed. WHERE IS THIS ARCHTYPICAL NEGROID GROUP, fruitbasket?
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Racial traits are geographically circumscribed in origin.
LMAO. You've just described hair as under selection of UV radiation. This means it cannot be a racial trait that bespeaks of admixture with Caucasians when it is encountered in non-Caucasians, because adaptation implies that such non-Caucasoid populations can adapt it on their own. Dumbass.
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Afroloons reject biology & adaptation
Your psychosis prevents you from seeing that you're the only one who is doing this. YOURE the one who said ''Name an Upper Palaeolithic African fossil specimen with a low nasal index'' to deny the presence of indigenous narrow nose types in Africa. YOU say Africans can't adapt to hot-dry climates. YOU say Africans can't adapt to hair types seen in groups who reside on the same lattitude. You're so sick in your head, LMAO.
TO THIS DAY you still can't explain why Strouhal's Badarians, who had mostly wavy hair, had a nasal index of >54 (men 54.8, women 55.2). Idem ditto for some of the Nubians who belonged to the groups in which the wavy-straight hairs were found that I cited in the OP. This is unheard of in indigenous contemporary Levantine and European groups, whom you've gone at great lengths to pidgeon hole as having a nasal index of below 50. LMAO.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Correct. That is why he responds to each paragraph I wrote with a strawman argument and didn't bother answering my last question about the Indian girls whose picture I posted.
The guy is a race-idiot who refuses to accept reality.
This is why he lives in his mother's basement blogging in race forums and arguing with the likes of people whom he deems as inferior negroes as if he needs to 'prove' his racial superiority! LOL
And you wonder why Britain is falling to the Pakistanis. Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:It’s also in the same cluster as indigenous South Asians and Southeast Asians, many of whom have straighter hair than Europeans. What is your point?
The indigenous racial types of those regions have woolly hair.
quote:In any case Negrito seems to have been first inhabitants of South East Asia. The traces of the stock are still to be seen in some of the forest tribes of the higher hills of the extreme south of India and similar traces appear in the inaccessible areas of Assam and Bengal, Burma, where dwarf stature is combined with frizzly hair which appears to have resulted from recent admixture of pure Negrito stock of the Andamans with blood from the main land of India or Burma.
So many views on the Negrito problem in Indian ethnology have been reported in the literature. Guha (1928, 1929) observed the presence of Negrito racial strain from the solitary character of hair form (frizzly type) which he found among the Kadars who live in the interior of the chain of hills running from the Anamalais to Travancore. Guha (1961) wrote to Sharma (personal communication) that frizzly type of hair occurs not only among Kadars but among Irulas and the Pulayans also.
- Indian Genome Variation Consortium
And what of Strouhal's study?
Most (94/117 skulls) were a Caucasoid-Negroid hybrid type.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^You fail. Negritos aren't the only indigenous populations in the region. The South Asian Adivasi are indigenous as well. Their hair type is generally no different from the other non-kinky haired South Asians.
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Most (94/117 skulls) were a Caucasoid-Negroid hybrid type.
Goes back to my earlier question (which you neglected to answer). Where is your evidence that there is such a thing as an archetypical Negroid population which is devoid of non-negroid traits, for you to just randomly slice African populations up according to their phenotypical distance from this imaginary negroid archetype? You mean to tell me that you haven't even identified this African population, but you're a so sure that only 6-8% of Strouhal's Badarian population descends from this archetype population?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote: Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Correct. That is why he responds to each paragraph I wrote with a strawman argument and didn't bother answering my last question about the Indian girls whose picture I posted.
That's Modo-face 101.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^You fail. Negritos aren't the only indigenous populations in the region. The South Asian Adivasi are indigenous as well. Their hair type is generally no different from the other non-kinky haired South Asians.
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Most (94/117 skulls) were a Caucasoid-Negroid hybrid type.
Goes back to my earlier question (which you neglected to answer). Where is your evidence that there is such a thing as an archetypical Negroid population which is devoid of non-negroid traits, for you to just randomly slice African populations up according to their phenotypical distance from this imaginary negroid archetype? You mean to tell me that you haven't even identified this African population, but you're a so sure that only 6-8% of Strouhal's Badarian population descends from this archetype population?
How is it imaginary, when zero Upper Palaeolithic African fossils have Caucasoid features?
Show me the UP African fossils with low nasal indices, narrow interorbital areas, midfacial orthognathism, microdont teeth, sharp nasal spines, retreating zygomatics, pointed chins?
So where are they?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^You're such a pinhead. Aside from the fact that you've ignored my question two times in a row, it doesn't follow logically that Africans need to have had narrow noses since the Upper Palaeolithic to carry it today (not that I'm saying they didn't have it back then). Aside from that non-sequitor, I see you're just going to flip flop back and forth between believing in microevolution (variations emerge because of ecological and other reasons) and typology (variations are caused because of admixture with source populations who have a monopoly on those variations), aren't you?
If you want to lump Capoids in with Negroids, then fine by me. The point is, these three major racial types were only once predominantly restricted to those geographical areas [large scale migrations only occurred later] and were allopatric subspecies. So its not circular reasoning to identify racial trait complexes, since they are geographically circumscribed in origin.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^The third time in a row that you're running away from my question.
quote:Middle Paleolithic/UP Western Eurasians = Caucasoids
European Upper Palaeolithic Dolni Vestonice 13. Yes, very Caucasoid indeed! LMAO.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^The third time in a row that you're running away from my question.
quote:Middle Paleolithic/UP Western Eurasians = Caucasoids
European Upper Palaeolithic Dolni Vestonice 13. Yes, very Caucasoid indeed! LMAO.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Your point?
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
All African primates have straight hair. So too all of Africa's desert,forest, and savannah mammals. Even the camel having evolved in areas of intense UV rays still maintains straight brown hair.
The questions is why haven't the strong UV waves modified the hair of at least one of these mammals so that the hair curls up to protect the epidermis?
Back to an earlier analysis: in all geographic locations regarding humans populations separate according to the principle of genetic drift and population breeding usually takes place within those confines. Some traits get passed on and others not. The selection process seems to be based on arbitrary considerations in most cases. Thus straight hair can be selected for in an environment where curled hair could just as easily be selected for.
These population isolates would all seem to follow their own internal logic. It would seem that the only human trait that could be logically determined by environment is pigmentation. UV indexes, grosso modo, are correlated loosely with skin colour--i.e. with in limited range. Thus in the tropical environments skin colour can range from very dark(South Sudan, etc.) to yellow/medium brown( Khoisan, Sotho, some Ibo, etc.). Yet the tightly curled hair of the San goes along with their yellowish pigmentation. In India very dark pigmentation can go along with straight black hair, etc.
Same with height, and body structure. The Dinka and Nuers average over 6 feet while the Twa(males) barely reach 5 feet. But there are pockets of such short statured people in Asia and Europe. In fact among Europeans one occasionally sees individuals who are not dwarfs but very short.
When one looks at the non-human animal world the enormous variety of biological forms that evolve in the same environment is remarkable. Take the case of the Hammerhead Shark(genus Sphymidae). It evolved in the same environment of some other shark subspecies but evolved its peculiar head shape in a purely arbitrary way. The shape of head of the hammerhead and the positioning of its eyes confers no hunting advantage over other sharks.
So it is with human intra-islolate population mating patterns may in the long run produce physiological types that are purely arbitrary in derivation: tightly curled hair or straight hair confer no advantages in whatever geographical advantages. The same with epicanthic eye folds.
Pigmentation does seem to be affected within loose boundaries though. Yet, albinos do arise in areas where there are high UV concentrations. The recessive genes that produce them have not bee eliminated over millennia and are even found in all tropical flora and fauna.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^The third time in a row that you're running away from my question.
quote:Middle Paleolithic/UP Western Eurasians = Caucasoids
European Upper Palaeolithic Dolni Vestonice 13. Yes, very Caucasoid indeed! LMAO.
Is this meant to mean something?
I already answered your question. You've admitted you reject biology & adaptation and that you maintain physical features did not arise in different regions, and you cling to the Afroloon idea all physical diversity evolved in Africa. Yet when I ask for a single prehistoric skull with a low nasal index and is orthognathic you fail to list a single one. If those features evolved there, where are the fossils?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Is this meant to mean something?
Of course, that's why you're running away from addressing it (no prominent nasal spine, projecting face, no prominent nasal bone, prominent zygomatic arches), just like you ran away from addressing the fact that Strouhal's Badarians had a nasal index of >54. The Dolni Vestonice skull has a generalized morphology, with traits you've called non-caucasian throughout your stay here. Just playing dumb and saying ''is this meant to mean something?'' and ''what of Strouhal's study?'' is just code for your inability to address these points, stupid.
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: I already answered your question.
You're lying your ass off. You haven't identified your imaginary archetype Negroid group that is totally devoid of traits that are diagnostic of non-negroids. Even IF there were no Upper Palaeolithic African samples with the Caucasoid features you list (which isn't true), this is not the same as proving that there ever was such a thing as an ancestral African Negroid group with exclusively True Negroid typology. Caucasoid is not the only form of non-Negroid, stupid.
quote:Yet when I ask for a single prehistoric skull with a low nasal index and is orthognathic you fail to list a single one.
I've never committed myself in this thread page to expressing this view, so your random question makes no sense. You brought this up out of nowhere, trying to answer a question with a question, which was just a non-sequitor. Answer the question Modo-face:
Where is your evidence that there is such a thing as an archetypical Negroid population which is devoid of non-negroid traits, for you to just randomly slice African populations up according to their phenotypical distance from this imaginary negroid archetype? You mean to tell me that you haven't even identified this African population, but you're a so sure that only 6-8% of Strouhal's Badarian population descends from this archetype population? Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fartheadbonkers:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
Is this meant to mean something?
Yeah, since you're too dumb to notice. The UP modern human European skull above does NOT conform to your 'caucasoid' type. "..Nor does the picture get any clearer when we move on to the Cro-Magnons, the presumed ancestors of modern Europeans. Some were more like present-day [aboriginal] Australians or Africans, judged by objective anatomical observations."--Christopher Stringer, Robin McKie (1998). African Exodus. Macmillan, p. 162)
quote:I already answered your question. You've admitted you reject biology & adaptation and that you maintain physical features did not arise in different regions, and you cling to the Afroloon idea all physical diversity evolved in Africa.
LOL YOU are the loon as much as a liar? How does Swenet reject biology and adaptation when he clearly states that populations can change over time?! YOU on the other have this idiotic belief in static racial features. And of course not 'all' physical diversity evolved in Africa, but MOST did because that is where the human race originated. This is why for example the most diverse phenotypic traits of all-- craniofacial form is the most diverse in Africa as stated by Hiernaux whom YOU yourself cited, you dummy!
quote:Yet when I ask for a single prehistoric skull with a low nasal index and is orthognathic you fail to list a single one. If those features evolved there, where are the fossils?
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You yourself love to point out how there is no evidence of fossils exhibiting "modern negroid" types until Neolithic or Bronze Age times in West Africa even though there are material remains in the region dating back to the upper paleolithic. The funny thing is that humans in general are recent to Europe yet you hold paleolithic Europeans as example that 'Cacasoids' are an ancient 'race' even though the skulls aren't even that 'Caucasoid'! LOL
Again, your whole argument is circular and self-contradictory idiotic. Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Of course, that's why you're running away from addressing it (no prominent nasal spine, projecting face, no prominent nasal bone, prominent zygomatic arches)
It doesn't need adressing, its just an outlier, and shows your level of stupidity. You just ran to google images to find the most atypical skull you could find. Others exist: Grimaldi, Abri Pataud and Chancelade. These atypical skulls are the extreme minority (Coon [1962] for example in his most extensive study of UP European skulls, detected aveolar prognathism in only three specimens out of multiple hundreds). Nowhere did I deny they existed.
quote:just like you ran away from addressing the fact that Strouhal's Badarians had a nasal index of >54.
His study listed metrics for just over a hundred skulls. Numerous were platyrrhine. Its only you who cannot understand typological data properly, as you end up generalizing cherry picked data for an entire population.
quote:You haven't identified your imaginary archetype Negroid group that is totally devoid of traits that are diagnostic of non-negroids. Even IF there were no Upper Palaeolithic African samples with the Caucasoid features you list (which isn't true)
Then list them. You know they don't exist. The earliest dated African skulls falling in the leptorrhine range are two crania from Gambles Cave (II) dating 10,000-8,000 B.P (not UP, but Holocene). However the reliability of these skull measurements has been questioned:
quote: Deposits belonging to this "Gamble's Cave Shoreline" complex have now been dated to between 8000 and 10,000 B.P. Of the five Gamble's Cave skeletons, only two could be reconstructed, and this job was carried out in England after the material had been sent there from East Africa. Results were certainly far from perfect, owing to warping and crushing of the original bone, and further insult was to follow. The Royal College of Surgeons in London and the skeletal collections housed there received heavy bomb damage during World War II. So by the time that the skulls were transferred to the British Museum (Natural History) in 1948, they were scarcely in mint condition. Skull number 4 is the less well preserved of the two, and all of the base as well as a substantial portion of the facial skeleton are present only in plaster. Distortion renders this specimen quite unfit for measurement. Number 5 also lacks much of the skull base, and the missing parts have been heavily reconstructed. Although these skulls have been called non-Negro in morphology, the evidence is certainly far from clear cut, and any such diagnosis is questionable by virtue of the state of the material alone.
(Rightmire, 1975)
So not only does no Upper Palaeolithic leptorrhine skull exist in Africa, but you are going to struggle to find a skull from the early or mid-holocene. Low nasal indices only appear in some late Caspians crania of North Africa (Coon, 1965).
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Getting back to the topic of this thread...
quote:Originally posted by Fartheadbonkers:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Okay, and how is spiral haired being the most frequent refute that wavy hair is still native.
Wavy hair isn't native, and Hiernaux never wrote it was. Yes, he opposed the 'true Negroid' classification. However he wasn't an Afroloon.
Let's go over the Hiernaux passage you quoted again. Piece by piece.
Only the last two categories ['curly', 'spiralled'] are frequent in the the populations of sub-Saharan Africa,...
Notice he lists two categories of hair among sub-Saharans-- curly and spiral, and notice he says such hair forms are *frequent* in sub-Saharans, NOT that they are the ONLY types that occur.
and spiralled hair, which may be more or less tightly spiralled, occurs in many more populations than curly hair...
Here even says that spiraled hair occurs in variations of more or less. By the way, Khoisan or 'Capoid' types as you like to call them have the tightest most coiled forms of hair. 'Kinky' hair is actually less coiled and more loose.
He also says that spiraled hair in general is more common or predominant than curly hair which is looser. Again this shows variation. Hair even looser than curly is wavy hair which although rare in sub-Sahara still occurs. Again NOTHING in the Hiernaux's statements suggests that wavy hair does not occur at all in Sub-Sahara.
And mind you this disclaimer is for sub-Saharan populations in general but what about populations indigenous to the Sahara or supra-Sahara? We know wavy hair is much more frequent that it is dominant even though it occurs in populations where the people have black skin!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Chemical and Physical Behavior of Human Hair By Clarence R. Robbins 2012, pub: Springer Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ You keep posting that same source which mentions NOTHING about the wavy more elliptical hair found in some Africans which is different from the less elliptical hair of Europeans.
What's the point in citing a source that mentions nothing of what we are referring to? LOL Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
^ That source is actually good. It also references Iyengar's (1998) study. These findings are confirming wavy/straight hair is a northern latitude adaptation.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Getting back to the topic of this thread...
quote:Originally posted by Fartheadbonkers:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Okay, and how is spiral haired being the most frequent refute that wavy hair is still native.
Wavy hair isn't native, and Hiernaux never wrote it was. Yes, he opposed the 'true Negroid' classification. However he wasn't an Afroloon.
Let's go over the Hiernaux passage you quoted again. Piece by piece.
Only the last two categories ['curly', 'spiralled'] are frequent in the the populations of sub-Saharan Africa,...
Notice he lists two categories of hair among sub-Saharans-- curly and spiral, and notice he says such hair forms are *frequent* in sub-Saharans, NOT that they are the ONLY types that occur.
and spiralled hair, which may be more or less tightly spiralled, occurs in many more populations than curly hair...
Here even says that spiraled hair occurs in variations of more or less. By the way, Khoisan or 'Capoid' types as you like to call them have the tightest most coiled forms of hair. 'Kinky' hair is actually less coiled and more loose.
He also says that spiraled hair in general is more common or predominant than curly hair which is looser. Again this shows variation. Hair even looser than curly is wavy hair which although rare in sub-Sahara still occurs. Again NOTHING in the Hiernaux's statements suggests that wavy hair does not occur at all in Sub-Sahara.
And mind you this disclaimer is for sub-Saharan populations in general but what about populations indigenous to the Sahara or supra-Sahara? We know wavy hair is much more frequent that it is dominant even though it occurs in populations where the people have black skin!
I own the book. There is no mention of wavy hair at all. He only discusses very curly or spiralled (wooly) in relation to native textures.
Page 193 has a single mention of wavy hair but is a reference to the Merina of Madagascar, who are listed as immigrants.
When it comes to natives hair textures, Hiernaux only ever maintained they were curly or spiralled, not wavy or straight. This is the position of every other anthropologist. The only people claiming "Blacks have straight hair" are mentally confused self-hating AA's like Swenet who have a crisis over their nappy hair.
African-Americans call straight hair the "white girl flow":
If "Blacks have straight hair" why did AA's coin this term? Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Chemical and Physical Behavior of Human Hair By Clarence R. Robbins 2012, pub: Springer
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ You keep posting that same source which mentions NOTHING about the wavy more elliptical hair found in some Africans which is different from the less elliptical hair of Europeans.
What's the point in citing a source that mentions nothing of what we are referring to? LOL
Because in the first sentence this author says that that such hair evolved in Europe. This means it's possble admixture from a back migration from Eurasia is possible, that what you descibe is a hybrid hair . And the wide variety of hair found in ancient Nubians suggests multiple origins That's one theory. I was unable to find something published which argued an indigenous African theory. Also the book as quoted mentions some theories as to conditions that may have caused this trait to be selected in certain environments. One would think that if the trait was indigenous to some particular place in Africa there would be an isaolated tribe where you could see a group of people with this type of hair. As noted in the first page of this thread as quoted by Swenet earliest samples at a predyanstic Kerma site "the hair was always long and straight and only slightly wavy" I am open to a theory that this type of hair evolved in Africa but I need to see some research not anecdotal pictures. If it is the case it means that in some region, perhaps the Maghreb or in Ethiopia (which has some climates more temperate) that straight long hair only slightly wavy is actaully more adpated, more suited to such particular environment than is tightly coiled hair.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Getting back to the topic of this thread...
quote:Originally posted by Fartheadbonkers:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Okay, and how is spiral haired being the most frequent refute that wavy hair is still native.
Wavy hair isn't native, and Hiernaux never wrote it was. Yes, he opposed the 'true Negroid' classification. However he wasn't an Afroloon.
Let's go over the Hiernaux passage you quoted again. Piece by piece.
Only the last two categories ['curly', 'spiralled'] are frequent in the the populations of sub-Saharan Africa,...
Notice he lists two categories of hair among sub-Saharans-- curly and spiral, and notice he says such hair forms are *frequent* in sub-Saharans, NOT that they are the ONLY types that occur.
and spiralled hair, which may be more or less tightly spiralled, occurs in many more populations than curly hair...
Here even says that spiraled hair occurs in variations of more or less. By the way, Khoisan or 'Capoid' types as you like to call them have the tightest most coiled forms of hair. 'Kinky' hair is actually less coiled and more loose.
He also says that spiraled hair in general is more common or predominant than curly hair which is looser. Again this shows variation. Hair even looser than curly is wavy hair which although rare in sub-Sahara still occurs. Again NOTHING in the Hiernaux's statements suggests that wavy hair does not occur at all in Sub-Sahara.
And mind you this disclaimer is for sub-Saharan populations in general but what about populations indigenous to the Sahara or supra-Sahara? We know wavy hair is much more frequent that it is dominant even though it occurs in populations where the people have black skin!
I own the book. There is no mention of wavy hair at all. He only discusses very curly or spiralled (wooly) in relation to native textures.
Page 193 has a single mention of wavy hair but is a reference to the Merina of Madagascar, who are listed as immigrants.
When it comes to natives hair textures, Hiernaux only ever maintained they were curly or spiralled, not wavy or straight. This is the position of every other anthropologist. The only people claiming "Blacks have straight hair" are mentally confused self-hating AA's like Swenet who have a crisis over their nappy hair.
African-Americans call straight hair the "white girl flow":
If "Blacks have straight hair" why did AA's coin this term?
1) because African Americans don't represent ALL African populations and ethnic groups.
2) because they bearly know African diversity and ethnology, just like you know barely about Africa and Africans-, ethnology.
That's why, simple head!
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^Thanks for single handedly destroying yourself. Its not hard to imagine that hair type in more Northern regions (relative to Yemen) could easily produce more looser hair than what's visible on the head of that guy you've posted. Keep showing your mental retardation by proving my point.
LMAO. Get this: Modo-face calls common curly hair like this ''extremely curly'' and ''bordering frizzy'':
Is his hair anywhere near straight idiot? Show someone native with straight hair at that latitude. You are the one claiming "Blacks have straight hair" yet can't produce a single piece of evidence and in the process are denying peer-reviewed studies which have confirmed the link between UV index and hair texture.
Yes, 'looser' hair textures are found at that latitude. No one ever denied that. These hair types are though extremely curly or frizzy. This was even admitted by Snowden. And even other Afroloons on this site don't claim "Blacks have straight hair". Troll Patrol for example claimed African hair is only a loose as frizzy. You're basically in the extreme looney bin with Mike111.
Claim? LOL
I STATE FACTS. AFRICAN HAIR GOES FROM KINKY TO THICK CURLY. DEPENDING ON THE REGION AND ETHNIC. And I can't rule out bone straight hair some have, "although I don't think that's really indigenous". Considering the root of thick curly hair can be straight.
TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE, DORKY.
Ps. We don't give a shyt about you, try to understand.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Getting back to the topic of this thread...
quote:Originally posted by Fartheadbonkers:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Okay, and how is spiral haired being the most frequent refute that wavy hair is still native.
Wavy hair isn't native, and Hiernaux never wrote it was. Yes, he opposed the 'true Negroid' classification. However he wasn't an Afroloon.
Let's go over the Hiernaux passage you quoted again. Piece by piece.
Only the last two categories ['curly', 'spiralled'] are frequent in the the populations of sub-Saharan Africa,...
Notice he lists two categories of hair among sub-Saharans-- curly and spiral, and notice he says such hair forms are *frequent* in sub-Saharans, NOT that they are the ONLY types that occur.
and spiralled hair, which may be more or less tightly spiralled, occurs in many more populations than curly hair...
Here even says that spiraled hair occurs in variations of more or less. By the way, Khoisan or 'Capoid' types as you like to call them have the tightest most coiled forms of hair. 'Kinky' hair is actually less coiled and more loose.
He also says that spiraled hair in general is more common or predominant than curly hair which is looser. Again this shows variation. Hair even looser than curly is wavy hair which although rare in sub-Sahara still occurs. Again NOTHING in the Hiernaux's statements suggests that wavy hair does not occur at all in Sub-Sahara.
And mind you this disclaimer is for sub-Saharan populations in general but what about populations indigenous to the Sahara or supra-Sahara? We know wavy hair is much more frequent that it is dominant even though it occurs in populations where the people have black skin!
I own the book. There is no mention of wavy hair at all. He only discusses very curly or spiralled (wooly) in relation to native textures.
Page 193 has a single mention of wavy hair but is a reference to the Merina of Madagascar, who are listed as immigrants.
When it comes to natives hair textures, Hiernaux only ever maintained they were curly or spiralled, not wavy or straight. This is the position of every other anthropologist. The only people claiming "Blacks have straight hair" are mentally confused self-hating AA's like Swenet who have a crisis over their nappy hair.
African-Americans call straight hair the "white girl flow":
If "Blacks have straight hair" why did AA's coin this term?
1) because African Americans don't represent ALL African populations and ethnic groups.
2) because they bearly know African diversity and ethnology, just like you know barely about Africa and Africans ethnology.
That's why, simple head!
Was he serious with that comment?
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
^ I do think so, but the amount of rubbish that person is posting is annoying and meaningless.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
^^^Anyways here is a West African Mali girl with 'white girl hair' Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote: Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: It doesn't need addressing, its just an outlier
LMAO. Outlier?
Early Europeans still resembled modern tropical peoples - some resemble modern Australian and Africans, more than modern Europeans.. Nor does the picture get any clearer when we move on to the Cro-Magnons, the presumed ancestors of modern Europeans. Some were more like present-day Australians or Africans, judged by objective anatomical observations. --Stringer et al
In your dreams, Modo-Face.
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Others exist: Grimaldi, Abri Pataud and Chancelade.
With the exception of Grimaldi, these are all Late Upper Palaeolithic, and even THEN, Abri Pataud and Chancelade have closer affinities with various Asian people like Eskimos, Polynesians and Ainu than with Europeans.
You must be out of your ever loving mind for even mentioning the Grimaldi skulls. You say Dolni Vestonice is an outlier, only to cite Upper Palaeolithic European skulls that are even more prognathous in the dental region, plathyrrhine and unlike the description you've given a few posts back. LMAO @ this certified pinhead.
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Then list them. You know they don't exist. The earliest dated African skulls falling in the leptorrhine range are two crania from Gambles Cave (II) dating 10,000-8,000 B.P (not UP, but Holocene). However the reliability of these skull measurements has been questioned:
The reliability of those measurements haven't been questioned you phuckin' airhead, LMAO. What Rightmire was saying that, overall (when you use 34 measurements), they're just not too distant from some individuals within his African samples, despite their narrow faces and noses. Thanks for single handedly debunking yourself. You better stop talking about those Gamble Cave remains and answer my question before I cite more data on these Great Rift populations shut your retarded dumbass down even further.
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: So not only does no Upper Palaeolithic leptorrhine skull exist in Africa
You're so retarded, LMAO. You're totally off. The Olduvai site, which is LSA and was inhabited by folks of a related phenotypic persuasion, is dated well into the late Upper Palaeolithic. Note that EVEN IF those early Holocene dates are correct (which they probably are), getting hung up on dates only proves how retarded you are, since the immediate ancestors of the Gamble cave folks in the Upper Palaeolithic would have had the exact same morphology.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
The mixed race spams continue.
Negroids from Mali look mostly like this:
In contrast these are mostly mixed:
Anyone can cherry pick photos. Afrocentrics despise the Negroid physiognomy, they are obsessed with mixed phenotypes, but then oddly claim they are native.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: ^^^Anyways here is a West African Mali girl with 'white girl hair'
I guess British people then have wooly hair, wide noses and dark skin:
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: The mixed race spams continue.
Negroids from Mali look mostly like this:
In contrast these are mostly mixed:
Anyone can cherry pick photos. Afrocentrics despise the Negroid physiognomy, they are obsessed with mixed phenotypes, but then oddly claim they are native.
It seems in the self interest of long term inhabitants of Africa whether they be Nigerians, Tuareg, Ethiopians, Khosians, Ugandans to not be concerned with phenotype and to unify to some degree like Europeans with their European union, NATO etc. to form their own African unity organizations in order negotiate terms foreign investment and alliances in order to not be victims of exploitive bad deal resource grabs by those nations.
Your tactic seems to be divide and conquer, keep Africans factionalized so the West can come in and take as much as it wants, correct?
The "Negroid" is not despised. What you call "Negroid" wishes to to unify with all Africans. The goal is to extend alliances and of course you know this. You don't want such alliances so you try to make an intention to be more inlcusive look like self hate. That's an attempted trick
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QB]
quote: Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: It doesn't need addressing, its just an outlier
LMAO. Outlier?
Early Europeans still resembled modern tropical peoples - some resemble modern Australian and Africans, more than modern Europeans.. Nor does the picture get any clearer when we move on to the Cro-Magnons, the presumed ancestors of modern Europeans. Some were more like present-day Australians or Africans, judged by objective anatomical observations. --Stringer et al
They were Caucasoid -
"The Upper Paleolithic Europeans, who lived from about 30,000 to about 10,000 years ago, were modern Caucasoids". - Coon, Carleton S. (1962). The Origin of Races. Knopf. p. 582.
"The Upper Paleolithic Europeans were modern Caucasoids." - Carleton Coon. (1982). Racial Adaptations. Nelson-Hall, p. 169.
"Cro-Magnon man resembles the Caucasoids more than any other modern racial type." - Beals, Ralph Leon., Hoijer, Harry. (1965). An Introduction to Anthropology. Macmillan. p. 119
"The original Upper Paleolithic people would, if they appeared among us today, be called Caucasoid, in the sense that they lacked the particular traits we associate with Negroid and Mongoloid types". - Cattell Raymond. (1979). The Structure of Personality in its Environment. Springer Pub. Co. p. 341.
"If Upper Paleolithic people were "European" from about 35,000 B.P., then such population distinctions are at least that old. And the Cro-Magnons were already racially European, i.e., Caucasoid. This has always been accepted because of the general appearance of the skulls: straight faces, narrow noses, and so forth." - Howells, William W. (1997). Getting Here: The Story of Human Evolution. Compass Press. p. 188.
quote:With the exception of Grimaldi, these are all Late Upper Palaeolithic, and even THEN, Abri Pataud and Chancelade have closer affinities with various Asian people like Eskimos, Polynesians and Ainu than with Europeans.
Yes they aren't Caucasoid. They are just the few outliers, which I meant as in not typical to the region. These also exist in East Asia [e.g. the Liujiang skull which is Australoid or an Mongoloid-Australoid hybrid, Wolpoff et al. (1984)].
quote:The reliability of those measurements haven't been questioned you phuckin' airhead, LMAO. What Rightmire was saying that, overall (when you use 34 measurements), they're just not too distant from some individuals within his African samples, despite their narrow faces and noses. Thanks for single handedly debunking yourself.
The remains were crushed through bombing and earlier damaged during transportation, hence the article notes no conclusive racial affinity can be drawn from them. You can't read properly.
quote: The Olduvai site, which is LSA and was inhabited by folks of a related phenotypic persuasion, is dated well into the late Upper Palaeolithic.
lol. No crania from Olduvai have low nasal indices. They also have prognathism, their nasal indices are high Mesorrhine.
"Oldoway is mesorrhine... possesses considerable alveolar prognathism" (Coon, 1939)
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: The mixed race spams continue.
Negroids from Mali look mostly like this:
In contrast these are mostly mixed:
Anyone can cherry pick photos. Afrocentrics despise the Negroid physiognomy, they are obsessed with mixed phenotypes, but then oddly claim they are native.
Mali is a diverse country...Me and Troll Potral were obviously showing you straight/curly hair in Africans. You body asked if they were mixed or not, but if Africans have straight/curly hair.
Reading...Try it. No one was cherry picking.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: ^^^Anyways here is a West African Mali girl with 'white girl hair'
I guess British people then have wooly hair, wide noses and dark skin:
The girl I posted is a INDIGENOUS Malian. And she may have what you call a 'negroid' nose.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
^ They aren't indigenous. That girl is heavily Caucasoid mixed.
Like I said, Negroids despise their phenotype, so they are trying to claim heavy Caucasoid admixed as their own.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: ^ They aren't indigenous. That girl is heavily Caucasoid mixed.
Like I said, Negroids despise their phenotype, so they are trying to claim heavy Caucasoid admixed as their own.
What the hell is 'Caucasoid mixed'??? I am I missing something? Their is no such thing as Caucasoid admixed... No one despises anything, were obviously trying to educate you on African DIVERSITY and I'm mixed btw.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
Are you saying these are "indigenous" as well? Its from the same link you posted.
They may be 'ADMIXED' but they are still 'INDIGENOUS'! Do you get what I am saying? Native Americans today are very admixed but they are still the indigenous people of America today.
Seriously if they are not indigenous then where the hell did they come from? Admixed and indigenous are two different things.
And you still didn't answer my question. What is a 'Caucasoid Admixed'?
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: ^ They aren't indigenous. That girl is heavily Caucasoid mixed.
Like I said, Negroids despise their phenotype, so they are trying to claim heavy Caucasoid admixed as their own.
What the hell is 'Caucasoid mixed'??? I am I missing something? Their is no such thing as Caucasoid admixed... No one despises anything, were obviously trying to educate you on African DIVERSITY and I'm mixed btw.
Ironically the 'Black African' Malians are more allied with the West than the Tuareg whom you call mixed who are fighting against the West
(political reality vs separatist racial theory)
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: ^ They aren't indigenous. That girl is heavily Caucasoid mixed.
Like I said, Negroids despise their phenotype, so they are trying to claim heavy Caucasoid admixed as their own.
What the hell is 'Caucasoid mixed'??? I am I missing something? Their is no such thing as Caucasoid admixed... No one despises anything, were obviously trying to educate you on African DIVERSITY and I'm mixed btw.
"Since the first shots were fired in the armed rebellion against Muammar Gadhafi, opposition groups have accused the Libyan strongman of hiring black African mercenaries. These accusations led to public anger in rebel-held cities and brutal attacks by local Arabs against common laborers from sub-Saharan Africa, forcing many to hide indoors rather than risk walking to the borders.
The mysterious dark-complexioned soldiers are with a secret commando unit trained under a Pentagon anti-terrorism project in Libya. Though their nationalities vary, the majority of these desert warriors are Tuaregs from the deep Sahara, including parts of Algeria, Mali, Niger, Burkina Faso and Libya. These nomadic tribesmen, better known as the "blue men," are familiar figures on adventure programs from Discovery Channel and National Geographic, guiding camel caravans or herding sheep through the dunes and stony wastelands. In recent years, they have become the frontline fighters against the fugitive Osama bin Laden and the group Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM).
At remote gunnery ranges outside of Sabha, a military town in the southwestern Fezzan region, the Tuareg commandos receive training from American special-forces instructors in automatic-weapons-handling, sniper marksmanship and communications. These masters of desert survival need no outside training in tracking and outmaneuvering the AQIM, who in the Sahara region are called the Salafists. The counter-terrorism cooperation between the U.S. and Libya, two countries with a history of rocky relations, is kept out of media view. Neither is this joint project ever mentioned in the U. S. Africa Command's Trans-Sahara Terrorism Program, which openly includes every other country of the vast arid region.
Though the Libyan Tuaregs' clandestine mission is kept under wraps by the Pentagon, a similar taste of desert warfare can be gained (courtesy of WikiLeaks) from December 2009 diplomatic cables out of the U.S. Embassy in Bamako, Mali, describing a Timbuktu boot camp run by U.S. Army trainers from Fort Carson, Colorado. "The (Malian) colonel called over one rather unimpressive soldier, an older rail-thin man with a scraggly beard and bloodshot eyes who had been lounging against a motorbike, explaining that in spite of appearances this was one of his best men and noting that he had been one of the few survivors of a July 4 ambush of a Malian Army patrol by AQIM. The soldier said the Salafists would never confront the Army head-on, and if the Army engaged, they would flee, but if there is not proper security, they will creep back and murder you in the most cruel, unimaginable ways."
The oldest veterans among the clandestine Libyan unit are re-enlistees from a long-since disbanded unit called the Islamic Pan-African Legion, which fought major battles against French forces in Chad during the 1980s. How these Tuareg fighters were regrouped and bolstered by younger tribesmen goes back to the beginnings of the Afghan War, immediately after the 9/11 attacks.
Bin Laden's Escape from Tora Bora
Early in the Afghan campaign, Al Qaeda chieftain Osama bin Laden took shelter from U.S. bombing raids inside a warren of caves dug into the mountains of Tora Bora, near the Afghan-Pakistan border. As American ground troops tightened the noose, militant commanders decided that their "emir" and his family should leave the battlefield to ensure the spread of the global jihad against infidels and Muslim hypocrites.
A members of the Taliban inner circle told me—inside a borderland tribal area that autumn, just days after the daring escape—Bin Laden's party of 26 aides and family members retreated to "south of Afghanistan," where they were picked up by a jet owned by a longtime business friend. The irony, as the militants put it, was that the airplane was provided by one of Bin Laden's closest business partners, who happened to be Jewish.
"In the world as it really is, not as people believe it to be, business is business and politics is a lesser matter. War, elections, disputes— these last only for a short time, but business is for the rest of your life. A mature businessman knows the difference regardless of his own political beliefs," said a Taliban elder with an aura of gravity.
"So where did he go?" I asked casually, so as not to show any of the eagerness of rookie journalists and war hounds.
"To Africa, to the Sahara."
Rebooting the War for Blood Diamonds
Over several months in the United Arab Emirates, I traced Bin Laden's rescue plane to a Russian arms dealer depicted as the fictional "Yuri Orlov" in the Nicholas Cage movie "Lord of War." Now in federal custody after his extradition from Thailand last year, Victor Bout fit the description to a tee: a Bukharan Jew born in Tajikistan, he was also the owner of Ariana Airlines, the national Afghan carrier under Taliban rule.
The Russian smuggler had earlier teamed up with Bin Laden's Sunni fighters—along with Israeli intelligence agents—to wrestle away the blood diamond trade from Lebanese Shiite merchants in Sierra Leone, Liberia, Cote d'Ivoire and Burkina Faso. The Israelis allied with the Sunni radicals because their secret service "could not tolerate the fact that Jewish diamond merchants in Antwerp were financing suicide bombings in Gaza," an Afghan middleman for the Taliban in the gem trade told me.
The escape plane landed in Sharjah, U.A.E, where Bin Laden parted company with his family and took a second flight with his aides to an undisclosed point in East Africa—most likely Mogadishu, Somalia. From there, with the assistance of lieutenants from the blood diamond wars, his party crossed into the Sahel, the semi-arid borderlands of the Sahara, where he vanished from sight.
My 2002 article, "Bin Laden Escaped to Africa," was published in the Hong Kong-based newsmagazine Yazhou Zhoukan to a skeptical readership. It took several years for the Pentagon to catch up, after the Defense Intelligence Agency came to recognize the accuracy of the details —an eternity when considering the priority put on capturing America's most-wanted "dead or alive."
By 2006, when the Pentagon drew up plans for a new Africa Command (AFRICOM), Bin Laden's team was running a recruitment program and setting up bases across the Sahara, a region nearly as large as the United States, adding onto that a third more space in the Sahel, plus the Horn of Africa as their backyard. The Salafists had by then formed a network of alliances with regional drug-smuggling rings, which were moving Colombian contraband into Europe.
By the time AFRICOM, under its first commander General William "Kip" Ward, opened its headquarters in Morocco in 2008 and got American boots onto the sand, the militants were demanding ransoms for Western hostages and infiltrating dozens of cells into urban centers across Northern Africa, including major cities in Morocco, Tunisia and Libya.
Blue Men and Their Strong Women
The only staunch force that stood between the religious extremists and their goal was the Tuareg, the men in indigo blue robes, but at the time they were waging their own rebellions in Mali and Niger. Gadhafi had to personally intervene to urge the Tuareg to end their guerrilla war. The Libyan leader had earned the respect of the Tuareg in the 1980s by designating their ethnic status as Arabs instead of second-class Berbers. Jobless Tuareg fighters from Mali and Niger eagerly joined the new American-trained Libyan unit headquartered at Sabha's Fort Elena, built during the Italian colonial era (when it was called Fortezza Margherita). The oasis town was a hospitable place for these desert dwellers, having served as a caravanserai for many centuries.
The traditional friction between the blue men and the Salafists is based on religion, culture, ecology and race. In contrast to the purist orthodox believers, with their veneration of patriarchy and fundamentalism, the Tuareg retain much of their ancient matriarchal culture. By Tuareg tradition, only women—not men—are allowed to read and write; and men —not women—are required to wear a veil. Their version of Islam is intermixed with pre-conversion shamanism.
The only trait that dark-complexioned Tuareg share in common with the light-skinned Salafists is the glorification of combat, making the two sides as natural of enemies as venomous adders and sharp-clawed falcons.
Their cultural differences proved to be a serious impediment to discipline in the Pentagon's earlier covert demolition-training program in Libya during the late 1970s and early 1980s, run by "rogue" CIA agent Edwin Wilson and his band of Green Berets. The boot camp was located in Benghazi, which like the rest of eastern Libya, is a stronghold of the orthodox Sanusi sect affiliated with the Salafi movement on the Saudi Peninsula. In the Libyan attack on Chad, the combination of Arab officers and Tuareg infantrymen proved disastrous. Washington's covert campaign to roll back France's expansionism in Africa was routed, as explained to me by a veteran of the French Foreign Legion, due to the order from Paris to send in elite paratroopers disguised as Chadians.
The very existence of a new Tuareg brigade came into the spotlight when dozens were killed or captured by the Al Qaeda–linked Islamic Fighting Group rebels in Libya's east. Inside the labyrinths of coastal cities, these desert warriors are at a tactical disadvantage against battle-hardened infiltrators from Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Gaza and as far away as Iraq and Afghanistan. Western diplomats watch in horror and confusion at the reported atrocities committed by "black mercenaries," forgetting as if in a haze of hashish smoke that their own forces are waging merciless combat against Al Qaeda in Iraq, Afghanistan and New York City." http://newamericamedia.org/2011/03/the-black-african-soldiers-who-fight-for-libyaand-the-us.php
Do you see how the media flip flops with the Tuaregs? One minute they are black Africans and then the next minute they are 'Caucasian'.
"Reprisals against Libyan Tuareg who supported Gaddafi The Tuareg of one Libyan town are discovering there are serious consequences for the support some of them gave to Colonel Gaddafi.
"Really, Mr Justin, now we are in good condition. Believe me, I am too happy to see you. My God, now I feel shy."
The exuberant greetings are one of the great joys of travelling in Libya.
In this case, my old friend Mohammed Ali from the southern Libyan oasis town of Ghadames was particularly effusive, having heard that I had just been released by my Tuareg kidnappers after being held captive in the desert.
We had not seen each other in almost 13 years.
I had wanted to travel south from Tripoli to meet old friends from a desert expedition years before.
I had also wanted to look into stories I had been hearing about conflict breaking out in Ghadames between the town's mixed Arab-Berber population and the Tuareg.
Held hostage
The two populations have lived together, sometimes uneasily, for centuries.
Gaddafi's use of the Tuareg as local enforcers during the revolution had stirred up these divisions. Now that the town had risen up and expelled them, reprisals were in the air. "
Again...Do you see how the media flip flops on the race of the Tuaregs?
Also the Tuareg people being labeled 'white' is irrelevant since the Fulani people themselves are labeled as white by some African groups.
"Some Africans even refer to them as "white people". However, recent studies show that they descend from nomads from both North Africa and sub-Saharan Africa." http://www.africaguide.com/culture/tribes/fulani.htm
So yeah...Try again.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QB]
quote: Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: It doesn't need addressing, its just an outlier
LMAO. Outlier?
Early Europeans still resembled modern tropical peoples - some resemble modern Australian and Africans, more than modern Europeans.. Nor does the picture get any clearer when we move on to the Cro-Magnons, the presumed ancestors of modern Europeans. Some were more like present-day Australians or Africans, judged by objective anatomical observations. --Stringer et al
They were Caucasoid -
"The Upper Paleolithic Europeans, who lived from about 30,000 to about 10,000 years ago, were modern Caucasoids". - Coon, Carleton S. (1962). The Origin of Races. Knopf. p. 582.
"The Upper Paleolithic Europeans were modern Caucasoids." - Carleton Coon. (1982). Racial Adaptations. Nelson-Hall, p. 169.
"Cro-Magnon man resembles the Caucasoids more than any other modern racial type." - Beals, Ralph Leon., Hoijer, Harry. (1965). An Introduction to Anthropology. Macmillan. p. 119
"The original Upper Paleolithic people would, if they appeared among us today, be called Caucasoid, in the sense that they lacked the particular traits we associate with Negroid and Mongoloid types". - Cattell Raymond. (1979). The Structure of Personality in its Environment. Springer Pub. Co. p. 341.
"If Upper Paleolithic people were "European" from about 35,000 B.P., then such population distinctions are at least that old. And the Cro-Magnons were already racially European, i.e., Caucasoid. This has always been accepted because of the general appearance of the skulls: straight faces, narrow noses, and so forth." - Howells, William W. (1997). Getting Here: The Story of Human Evolution. Compass Press. p. 188.
^None of these quotes are based on statistical analysis. I dare you post a single study with a large sample base from various regions, that groups early European Upper Palaeolithic remains closer to Europeans than to other populations. It has never happened, and it will never happen. What all these quotes are basically doing is expanding their definition of what Caucasian means, and then saying European Upper Palaeolithic remains fit into this expanded definition. This is precisely why all these quotes are grouping European Upper Palaeolithic remains with Caucasoids because of ''thin noses'' and ''straight faces'', which aren't even Europe specific. That is not the same as actually demonstrating that the average early Upper Palaeolithic European is statistically closer to a Yomon, Ainu, Northeast African sample than to a European sample.
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Yes they aren't Caucasoid.
LMAO. You went from saying:
Middle Paleolithic/UP Western Eurasians = Caucasoids --Modo-face
to admitting that your statement is patently false:
It doesn't need addressing, its just an outlier --Modo-face
And now you're admitting that, other than Dolni Vestonice, Grimaldi, Abri Pataud and Chancelade are also not Caucasoid:
Yes they aren't Caucasoid. --Modo-face
Since you're still claiming those skulls are outliers, why don't you just name five early European Upper Palaeolithic skulls that are statistically closer to Europeans than to other groups.
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: The remains were crushed through bombing and earlier damaged during transportation, hence the article notes no conclusive racial affinity can be drawn from them. You can't read properly.
PROVE that Rightmire's invocation of damage was his attempt to contradict the already established fact that these remains were narrow nosed and faced.
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: lol. No crania from Olduvai have low nasal indices. They also have prognathism, their nasal indices are high Mesorrhine.
Like I said, overall, the Oldovai skull belongs to the exact same persuasion as the Gamble Cave skulls (its medium width nose and prognathism notwithstanding). BTW, you do know that the European Upper Palaeolithic skulls you call Caucasoid were Mesorrhine as well, with many spelling over into platyrrhiny, right? This is exactly what I mean with how you Euronuts expand what it means to Caucasian when it comes to the phenotype of European Upper Palaeolithic. How come mesorrhine Oldovai isn't Caucasoid, but mesorrhine European Upper Palaeolithic is? Olduvai's prognathism idem ditto. Its certainly not any more pronounced than the prognathism seen on many EUP specimen.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
UP skulls from Europe are overwelmingly leptorrhine (<48).
"The Europeans' light skin, narrow nose, and orthognathism may also indeed be much later characteristics than the Australian's dark skin, broad nose, and prognathism, but it should be taken into account that even in the late Palaeolithic period, that is, at the time from which the 'Australoid' skulls of South Africa date, Europe was inhabited by the Cro-Magnon people who on the whole had a narrow nose and orthognathism" (Bromley, 1974)
Low nasal indices only appear in the UP fossil record in Europe/Western Asia. Orthognathism goes back to Skhul, and is found in a single Neanderthal specimen (Shanidar 1) from Kurdistan. These traits (orthognathism and low nasal indices) arose in Western Eurasia, and are Caucasoid. They don't appear in the fossil record anwhere else until the Neolithic (and in most cases are explained through geneflow with Caucasoids/or where Caucasoids settled).
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: UP skulls from Europe are overwelmingly leptorrhine (<48).
Patently false. You're lying out ya ass. That's why you didn't produce a source. And the source that you did post contradicts you (what else is new?). All your sources contradict you. YOU even contradict your dumbass self. You accused me of nitpicking European UP skulls when I posted Dolni Vestonice 13, and then you mentioned a skull that is even more negroid. You're so mentally unstable, LMAO.
^The UP European sample clocks in at 49.5% (column 1). Why are you such a liar, modo-face?
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Orthognathism goes back to Skhul
And even if this were true, this helps you, how? Considering that the consensus is that this population consisted of recent immigrants from Africa, and has more affinity with African AMHs than with UP Europeans?
quote:These traits (orthognathism and low nasal indices) arose in Western Eurasia, and are Caucasoid.
Circular reasoning again; no a priori evidence for how this trait can ever be Caucasoid specific. any retarded toddler can say something so because its so. Where is your evidence modo-face?
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: You're lying out ya ass. That's why you didn't produce a source.
I already provided five or six sources, including Howells and Coon. Since you deny these facts, you are having to reject virtually every prominent physical anthropologist. Even Stringer et al. 1984 describes the Cro-Magnon as having a: "long and voluminous skull with a 'disharmonically' broad but short face, low orbits, long narrow nose". This is the majority appearance of UP European skulls. They are also microdont.
The Cro-Magnon (H. sapiens Cro-Magnonensis) is dolichocephalic-euryene, leptorrhine-chamaeconch. The Cro-Magnonoid type still exists, and is Caucasoid. What seperates this to the Palaeo-Europoid/Caucasoid Cro-Magnon, is only skin hue, and the bizygomatic diameter, but as Coon (1962, p. 584) notes: "Heavy chewing, combined with a relatively narrow brain case, is responsible for this archaic feature, found also among the Eskimo. It has no racial significance."
That's why denying Cro-Magnon are Caucasoid is shooting yourself in the foot. The Cro-Magnonoid exists as a type today, with closest affinity in metric/non-metric to the Palaeo-Europoid. The Cro-Magnonoid (Cro-Magnid) isn't Negroid, it is a "white" racial type.
quote: And the source that you did post contradicts you (what else is new?). All your sources contradict you. YOU even contradict your dumbass self. You accused me of nitpicking European UP skulls when I posted Dolni Vestonice 13, and then you mentioned a skull that is even more negroid. You're so mentally unstable, LMAO.
^The UP European sample clocks in at 49.5% (column 1). Why are you such a liar, modo-face?
None of my sources contradict, the problem is that you are too dumb to understand them. What you've posted from Coon (1939) is the median of 11 skulls. That means ten could be <48 but a single skull platyrrhine. The median is irrelevent. You need typological data per individual skull. As I showed you, the vast majority of UP European skulls are leptorrhine-microdont and orthognathous. These features are Caucasoid. Only Caucasoids possess microdont teeth (Coon 1962, p. 354). Even if you want to lump Aethiopids in with Negroids [they aren't but for the sake of argument] they don't have small teeth even. Game over once again.
quote:And even if this were true, this helps you, how? Considering that the consensus is that this population consisted of recent immigrants from Africa, and has more affinity with African AMHs than with UP Europeans?
We are discussing the origin of traits. All these features first appeared in Europe/West Asia during the Palaeolithic and are absent elsewhere.
quote:Circular reasoning again; no a priori evidence for how this trait can ever be Caucasoid specific. any retarded toddler can say something so because its so. Where is your evidence modo-face?
Denying the data once again. The Caucasoid traits listed only appeared in Western Eurasia [not Africa] so how is it circular reasoning?
Where are the orthognathous-microdont-leptorrhine fossils from Africa?
Remember it is you Afroloons who claim "Native Africans have all phenotypic traits", and yet not a single fossil exists with Caucasoid features. If you want to falsify the "true negroid" model, find a UP fossil with the aforementioned features in Africa. Otherwise why are you claiming these features as your own? (a) You don't have them yourself and (b) they don't appear in the African fossil record. Do you yet understand how stupid your beliefs are?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Fartheadbonkers is partly right that SOME tribes in the Sahara do have admixture with Eurasian Arabs and even white slaves from Europe, however this does not explain the wavy hair of some Sahelians who have NO history of admixture and even folks as far south as Uganda who have wavy hair despite having all other features being stereotypically "negroid".
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: I already provided five or six sources, including Howells and Coon.
I did too. So what do you do when two sets of sources contradict each other? Insist that yours are better (LMAO!)? Dumbass, post the raw measurements. ***WHERE*** are the measurements that confirm that ’’UP skulls from Europe are overwelmingly leptorrhine (<48)’’?
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Even Stringer et al. 1984 describes the Cro-Magnon as having a: "long and voluminous skull with a 'disharmonically' broad but short face, low orbits, long narrow nose".
^This is going to be hilarious. Cite the excerpt in its full context, and post the measurements that this conclusion was based on.
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: None of my sources contradict
Of course they do. It says that narrow nose and orthognathism were a late adaption. It then goes on to talk about the **LATE UPPER PALAEOLITHIC** European AMHS, when they had experienced 10s of millennia of micro-evolution. Epic fail.
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: That means ten could be <48 but a single skull platyrrhine.
Yapping on and on will not do. **Prove that this is the case**.
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: You need typological data per individual skull.
Of course I don’t. You said UP Europe was Caucasoid, and I debunked you.
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: We are discussing the origin of traits. All these features first appeared in Europe/West Asia during the Palaeolithic and are absent elsewhere.
Keep on refuting yourself. By saying that this population had those traits, you’re admitting that those traits would have had to be in Africa as well, since:
Canonical variate analysis based on log size/shape and shape D2 for male and female craniofacial data show quite clearly that the Qafzeh and Skhul hominan samples are distant from the Cro-Magnons but closer to African and Levantine (Middle Eastern) sample groups. Hierarchical cluster analysis presented similar results. Based on the data in this research, the hypothesis stating that the Qafzeh and Skhul hominans are "Proto-Cro-Magnons" is rejected. Instead, the alternate hypothesis is accepted: the Qafzeh and Skhul hominans have strong morphometric affinities to archaic and early modern Africans and Levantines. --Quintyn, 2006
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: The Caucasoid traits listed only appeared in Western Eurasia [not Africa] so how is it circular reasoning?
See above. These traits have nothing to do with Caucasoids, because Skhull/Qafzeh have nothing to do with Caucasoids, nor European AMHs. Thanks for refuting yourself by being kind enough to mention the Skhull population.
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Where are the orthognathous-microdont-leptorrhine fossils from Africa?
Where are they in Europe? None of the discriptions you offer above about UP European AMHs are confirmed by statistical analysis. All you have is a couple of views from various others who have never tested their views statistically. Instead of posting views, post measurement values the next time, will ya, Modo-face? I mean like this:
This greater development of the breadth diameters compared to the length diameters, which was observed in the three indices analysed is not present in the case of the nasal index: among the individuals from Romito we observe two cases of platyrhiny (Rom 5 and 6), one of mesorhiny (Rom 3), and one of leptorhiny (Rom 4). The great variability of this index is also observed in the r.s. --The human skeletal remains from the upper palaeolithic burials found in Romito cave (Papasidero, Cosenza, Italy), 1995
Note that they 'forgot' to mention that Rom 2 is platyrrhine as well, with a nasal index of 55.7%. Three are platyrrhine, one is mesorrhine and one is leptorrhine. Oh, but wait, the three broad nosed skulls are outliers right?
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
Show a full list of NI's for UP European crania. Resorting to cherry picking again. Yes, I can do that as well:
Those physical anthropologists I listed (Howells, Coon etc) had access to the full data [metrics of hundreds or thousands of skulls], so that is how they established European UP's were overwelmingly leptorrhine.
The Bromley quote = "Late Palaeolithic" not "Late Upper Palaeolithic" (as a late stage of UP). Late Palaeolithic is Upper Palaeolithic. So Caucasoids were thin nosed 35,000 B.P. The few outliers (such as Grimaldi) are not Caucasoids, and this has always been known.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Fartheadbonkers is partlyright that SOME tribes in the Sahara do have admixture with Eurasian Arabs and even white slaves from Europe, however this does not explain the wavy hair of some Sahelians who have NO history of admixture and even folks as far south as Uganda who have wavy hair despite having all other features being stereotypically "negroid".
We never denied that. We were just showing him straight/curly hair in Africa. He seems to not be able to comprehend the difference between indigenous and admixed. The Native Americans today are heavily admixed, yet they are still the indigenous population of America.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Show a full list of NI's for UP European crania. Resorting to cherry picking again. Yes, I can do that as well:
Those physical anthropologists I listed (Howells, Coon etc) had access to the full data [metrics of hundreds or thousands of skulls], so that is how they established European UP's were overwelmingly leptorrhine.
The Bromley quote = "Late Palaeolithic" not "Late Upper Palaeolithic" (as a late stage of UP). Late Palaeolithic is Upper Palaeolithic. So Caucasoids were thin nosed 35,000 B.P. The few outliers (such as Grimaldi) are not Caucasoids, and this has always been known.
^LMAO. Those measurements pose no contradiction to anything I've said, since I've never denied the presence of narrow noses in UP Europe. In fact, populations who are in the mesorrhine average ALWAYS have leptorrhine averages when the sample size is large enough--its inevitable. YOU on the other hand, ARE refuted as usual, since YOU said that all European AMHs had the Caucasian typology, re: Middle Paleolithic/UP Western Eurasians = Caucasoids. You then said that the remains I mentioned were outliers, which was AGAIN refuted (as usual). You then post remains from sites with known prognathism (Barma grande, Cro Magnon) which even futher smashes your claims into the ground. As for Mladec (Lautsch), those remains don't have the Caucasian typology either. Epic fail.
Skull from the UP Barma Grande site:
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
.
. 34,000 BC Russian
26,000 BC Russian
10,000 BC Crimea (Ukraine peninsula)
Mikhail Gerasimov reconstruction
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
LOL^^^^^^
The Aurignacian people who replaced the Neanderthal looked like this
Below is the ancestor of Neanderthals
,
. Here is a picture of Neanderthal man
.
By 100kya Neanderthal looked like this
As you can see, there is little difference between the African ancestor of Neanderthals, and the Neanderthals themselves.
Here we have Cro-Magnon or Aurignacian man
.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Firewall:
If there is a study showing a few kermans with straight or wavy hair at kerma please send it to me,but so far i have not seen any study showing any kermans with wavy hair.
Excavations at Kerma George Andrew Reisner, Joint Egyptian Expedition of Harvard University and the Boston Museum of Fine Arts Peabody Museum of Harvard University, 1923 - Kerma (Egypt)
Excavations at Kerma Pt. IV by Dows Dunham (1982, Paperback) : Dows Dunham (Trade Paper, 1982) Softcover Fine
$21.67
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Firewall: Not so fast,i know you had to look long and hard to find that,but is that the only LINK?
I need something updated by the way,not something from the 1920's and it needs to be put in context.
A another point i remember watch something on egypt and they recreated the scenes for the 1920's and while in egypt they were calling this place kerma and if i remember correctly were not even in sudan.
That' why i need a updated study,and if a few wavy or straight hair kermans was found at kerma,fine but i need a updated study,more studies and context.
Were these native to kerma? orLOWER NUBIANS WHO CAME TO LIVE AT KERMA AND BECAME kermaized? or egyptians who came to serve the king and became locals or kermaized overtime?
I need context and a updated study not pieces of info from one outdate book. So for time being i can't take your word for it.
Get me a update study for more detail info and i will look at the info. Thank you.
do you have any articles or book references on hair type of human remains at Kerma sites?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Egyptian, Eighteenth Dynasty
Ay, Fan Bearer, about 1360 B.C.
Plaster on limestone with polychrome Austin S. and Sarah C. Garver Funds Ay was a favored courtier of the pharaoh Akhnaten and vizier under his successor Tutankhamun. Here Ay is depicted as a powerful royal advisor, holding the fan, crook, and scarf that symbolize his fidelity to the king.
Succeeding Tutankhamun, who died prematurely, by marrying the boy king's widow, Ankhesenamun, his own granddaughter, Ay died after a brief rule of four or five years. This fragment, carved in sunken relief, comes from a wall in his tomb at Tell el Amarna on the on the eastern bank of the Nile. In its entirety the relief showed him kneeling in worship with his family and surrounded by a long prayer inscribed in hieroglyphics.
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
My updated answer is here. Topic: Nubian Kings in art
must every thread be permanently turned into hair ? Here we are in an actual Nubian hair thread. The Nubian Kings in Art thread is a picture thread and not primarly focused on hair.
This looks like an interesting book:
Multiple Antiquities - Multiple Modernities: Ancient Histories in Nineteenth ... edited by Gábor Klaniczay, Michael Werner, Ottó Gecser 2011
Antiquity, as the term has been understood and used over the centuries by scholars, political and religious figures, and ordinary citizens, is far from a single, monolithic concept. Rather than reflecting a stable, shared understanding about the past and its meaning, the idea of antiquity is instead varying and multiple, taking on different meanings and deployed to different effects depending on the context in which it is being considered. In this volume, historians from a wide range of specialties offer a comparative assessment of the multiple perceptions of antiquity that have shaped modern European cultures and national identities, deploying a new methodological approach, histoire croisée, which considers these questions in light of the development of cultural diversity across Europe.
I haeven't read it yet but there's a chapter by Nubian expert/author Laszlo Torok who Clyde has mentioned. You may already have seen his books. Kazlo Torok has authored some important books on Nubia. Read his chapter on Nubia page 365.. You will definitley find it worth reading. (unfortunately some pages missing) Reisner's work tainted by racism? Possibly or ignorance. But are his remarks on the hair a complete fabirication? I'm not sure. Torok's book, The Kingdom of Kush and Late Antique Nubia, Meroe City, Between Two worlds
Email the Nubia Museum
nubiamuseum@numibia.net
^^^ maybe they can answer some questions. Such questions should be asked in a very impartail way for a fair answer
Couldn't find Torok's email so far. Is he alive? See if Nubia Museum has his email or could forward him or try titkarsag@tti.hu Institute of History, Hungarian Academy of Sciences Another book of his, intertesing:
Hellenizing Art in Ancient Nubia 300 B.C. - AD 250 and its Egyptian Models (Culture and History of the Ancient Near East)
Presenting a large body of evidence for the first time, this book offers a comprehensive treatment of Nubian architecture, sculpture, and minor arts in the period between 300 BC-AD 250. It focuses primarily on the Nubian response to the traditional pharaonic, Hellenistic/Roman, Hellenizing, and hybrid elements of Ptolemaic and Roman Egyptian culture. The author begins with a history of Nubian art and a critical survey of the literature on Ptolemaic and Roman Egyptian art. Special chapters are then devoted to the discussion of the Egyptian-Greek interaction in the arts of Ptolemaic Egypt, the place of Egyptian Hellenistic and Hellenizing art within the oikumene, the pluralistic visual world of Ptolemaic and Roman Egypt, as well as on the specific genre of terracotta sculpture. Utilizing examples from Meroe City and Musawwarat es Sufra, the author argues that cultural transfer from Ptolemaic and Roman Egypt to Nubia resulted in an inward-focused adaptation. Therefore, the resulting Nubian art from this period expresses only those aspects of Egyptian and Greek art that are compatible with indigenous Nubian goals.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I've never denied the presence of narrow noses in UP Europe.
Do you yet admit <48 NI don't appear in the UP African fossil record? If not, then name a fossil. The fact you can't, proves me correct, but this issue isn't even a debate since its a proven fact no UP African fossil is leptorrhine [of course though this could change anytime if new fossils are found]. Until then, my model is fits the evidence, not yours.
The two earliest <48 fossils in Africa are the two specimens from Gambles Cave, 8,000 - 6,000 BC, but these are questionable because of the poor condition and the reconstructions have been questioned. Even if we accept these, it means the earliest <48 "Africans" are no older than 10,000-8,000 B.P which is what I said from the start.
Anyway, none of this needs to be limited to Caucasoid traits. We can discuss Mongoloid cranial features, which don't appear in the UP African fossil record either.
quote:YOU on the other hand, ARE refuted as usual, since YOU said that all European AMHs had the Caucasian typology, re: Middle Paleolithic/UP Western Eurasians = Caucasoids.
I said under that "predominantly". I never said all (which is an impossibility in nature). The morphological homogeneity [low variation] in UP Europe was very high. The outliers are the small minority (just the same as in East Asia, or anywhere else).
quote:You then post remains from sites with known prognathism (Barma grande, Cro Magnon) which even futher smashes your claims into the ground. As for Mladec (Lautsch), those remains don't have the Caucasian typology either. Epic fail.
Cro-Magnon 1 is orthognathic and leptorrhine. It became the "type specimen" for the reason these two traits appear in the vast majority of UP skulls. So you can be spamming pictures all day, it won't change this fact. I can also find Australoid skulls in UP China. But that doesn't change the fact the vast majority are Mongoloid.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Do you yet admit <48 NI don't appear in the UP African fossil record?
It has never been my point to point this out. In your last few post you've done nothing but introducing random red herrings that have nothing to do with the issue at hand. Even though they had nothing to do with what preceded it, I went along with your silly distractions and refuted you on every single one of them.
1.I asked for evidence that the ancestral negroid group consisted exclusively of remains with Negroid typology, and you failed to provide evidence.
2.You then proceeded with the logical fallacy that there are no African UP skeletons with Caucasoid morphology, which is a total non-response because indigenous non-negroid typology doesn't need to occur in the Upper Palaeolithic for it to be indigenous non-negroid typology, nor is Caucasoid typology the only non-Negroid typology.
3.Even though it had nothing to do with the issue at hand, and its a blatant non-sequitor, I still went along and posted evidence of non-negroid typology in the Upper Palaeolithic as exemplified by Olduvai (whether this fossil is Caucasoid proper is beside the point), and you still refuse to admit you were patently wrong about the presence of non-negroid typology in Africa in the UP.
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: The two earliest <48 fossils in Africa are the two specimens from Gambles Cave, 8,000 - 6,000 BC, but these are questionable because of the poor condition and the reconstructions have been questioned.
You're lying out of your ass again. None of the authors you've cited have questioned long standing claims that the Gamble Cave remains have non-negroid typology, nor have they said that such long standing claims need to be revisited because of the weathered condition of these skeletal remains. The Great Rift remains simply show affinity with individuals within Sub-Saharan samples that don't conform to the true negro typology, which may run up to more than 87%, depending on the sample.
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: I said under that "predominantly". I never said all (which is an impossibility in nature).
You DID say all, and even if you didn't, you've also never proven that European UP remains are statistically closer to European populations than to other groups throughout the world, in particular, certain Southeast Asians, Oceaneans and Africans. Posting various authors that have claimed this in the past is not a substitute for REAL statistical analysis.
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: The outliers are the small minority
You're lying out of your ass; they aren't small minorities when it comes to the frequencies with which they occur, and they also aren't minorities in the sense that they're statistically distinct from narrow nosed, ortochnathous European Upper Palaeolithic remains. Even when European UP fossils with readily apparent Negroid traits (e.g., Dolni Vestonice 13, Grimaldi) are removed from analysis, European UP fossils still cluster closer to groups who aren't Caucasoids per your definition. You've admitted it when you said: Yes they aren't Caucasoid., because these are the very remains that Coon and especially Howells looked at when they falsely described Cro-Magnon as Caucasoid.
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Cro-Magnon 1 is orthognathic and leptorrhine.
I said **from the same site** dumbass. Cro magnon II does have prognathism.
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: But that doesn't change the fact the vast majority are Mongoloid.
Another claim that is patently falls. What Upper Palaeolithic East Asian sample is Mongoloid? As a whole they have long neurocrania, which is as contra to the hallmark Mongoloid typology as it gets.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^^ Getting back to the topic of hair form...
According to Anglo-idiot, all these Africans above have loose wavy hair due to Caucasian admixture.
So what are we to make of these darker/blacker Australian aborigines??
According to lyinass and her one source, wavy hair is a European trait adapted to cold yet the Aussie aborigines are neither European nor are they adapted to a cold environment.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djeshiti:
According to lioness and her one source, wavy hair is a European trait adapted to cold yet the Aussie aborigines are neither European nor are they adapted to a cold environment.
Far before you even get to Austrailia when going along a coastal route in India many are quite dark brown people or in your preferred traditional racial terminology 'black' and they have straight hair.
^^^^ people who would be Australians would have been settling and moving, settling and moving, along this same route. As we can see the first part of the route includes Pakistan/Afghan regions
That is where the straight hair probably evolved
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: 1.I asked for evidence that the ancestral negroid group consisted exclusively of remains with Negroid typology, and you failed to provide evidence.
I've mentioned nothing of ancestry. All I have outlined is the origin of racial traits. In fact, very few were mentioned. There is whole lists you can get into which are also absent from the prehistoric African fossil record.
The Afrocentric claim orthognathism and thin noses are native physical features to Africa is refuted by the fossil record [Howells showed this]. What makes racial systematics non-circular is the fact physical traits were geograpically circumscribed in their origin:
"Morphological characteristics, however, like skin color, hair form, bone traits, eyes, and lips tend to follow geographic boundaries coinciding often with climatic zones. This is not surprising since the selective forces of climate are probably the primary forces of nature that have shaped human races with regard not only to skin color and hair form but also the underlying bony structures of the nose, cheekbones, etc." (Gill, 2000)
Yet, you are denying skeletal and hair geographical differences.
quote:You then proceeded with the logical fallacy that there are no African UP skeletons with Caucasoid morphology, which is a total non-response because indigenous non-negroid typology doesn't need to occur in the Upper Palaeolithic for it to be indigenous non-negroid typology
Yes, but the few regions those traits appear in the late Holocene are at the peripheries -- they are explained through Caucasoid settlement. If you found an orthognathic and leptorrhine fossil in Central/West/South Africa then it might overturn Coon's or Howell's model. So far that is not the case.
quote:Even though it had nothing to do with the issue at hand, and its a blatant non-sequitor, I still went along and posted evidence of non-negroid typology in the Upper Palaeolithic as exemplified by Olduvai (whether this fossil is Caucasoid proper is beside the point), and you still refuse to admit you were patently wrong about the presence of non-negroid typology in Africa in the UP.
There is nothing Caucasoid about that skull. It has a high nasal index and prognathism. And as I also told you, there are many more traits to take into consideration.
quote:You're lying out of your ass again. None of the authors you've cited have questioned long standing claims that the Gamble Cave remains have non-negroid typology, nor have they said that such long standing claims need to be revisited because of the weathered condition of these skeletal remains.
You will be talking about their old works. Both retracted their claims in their later studies, see Howells' Skull Shapes and the Map (1989). The skulls are though too damaged to make accurate reconstructions.
quote:The Great Rift remains simply show affinity with individuals within Sub-Saharan samples that don't conform to the true negro typology, which may run up to more than 87%, depending on the sample.
This is modern and the populations are mixed.
quote:You're lying out of your ass; they aren't small minorities when it comes to the frequencies with which they occur, and they also aren't minorities in the sense that they're statistically distinct from narrow nosed, ortochnathous European Upper Palaeolithic remains. Even when European UP fossils with readily apparent Negroid traits (e.g., Dolni Vestonice 13, Grimaldi) are removed from analysis, European UP fossils still cluster closer to groups who aren't Caucasoids per your definition. You've admitted it when you said: Yes they aren't Caucasoid., because these are the very remains that Coon and especially Howells looked at when they falsely described Cro-Magnon as Caucasoid.
Howells (1959) claimed Grimaldi was not Caucasoid, and that they were simply an "oddity" (he didn't attempt to classify them). Coon did though maintain they were Caucasoid, but only because he believed there were errors in their reconstructions [there's some controversy behind it].
quote:Another claim that is patently falls. What Upper Palaeolithic East Asian sample is Mongoloid? As a whole they have long neurocrania, which is as contra to the hallmark Mongoloid typology as it gets.
Upper Cave (Shandingdong).
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
ES Won't let me submit my full post, so I'll be back later.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass twit:
Far before you even get to Australia when going along a coastal route in India many are quite dark brown people or in your preferred traditional racial terminology 'black' and they have straight hair.
It's not my "preferred" terminology but the common terminology used in the traditions of many peoples not just Westerners and this includes Indian tradition since the man above in India would be called kalu 'black' by lighter skinned Indians.
quote:
^^^^ people who would be Australians would have been settling and moving, settling and moving, along this same route. As we can see the first part of the route includes Pakistan/Afghan regions
That is where the straight hair probably evolved
Yet didn't you correctly say, that the ancestors of Australian aborigines traveled through the COASTAL routes of India NOT Afghanistan and Pakistan?? And let's face it, the coastal route lies squarely in the tropical zone.
And let's not forget Southeast Asia which is the immediate launch pad into Australia.
There are remnants of loose haired black aborigines in Southeast Asia today as well as in India and in Arabia. Thus, we have an established link that such hair evolved along this southern coastal route which lies in the tropics (NOT in cold climate areas) assuming that such hair didn't evolve in tropical Africa first since again there are populations in the Sahara as well as sub-Sahara who have loose hair, including the Sudan and Horn region which was the alleged source for OOA.
We told your lyinass this many times before in practically every thread on the topic, but of course you 'forgot' and repeat your lie again. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djedumi:
quote:
^^^^ people who would be Australians would have been settling and moving, settling and moving, along this same route. As we can see the first part of the route includes Pakistan/Afghan regions
That is where the straight hair probably evolved
Yet didn't you correctly say, that the ancestors of Australian aborigines traveled through the COASTAL routes of India NOT Afghanistan and Pakistan?? And let's face it, the coastal route lies squarely in the tropical zone.
There are remnants of loose haired black aborigines in Southeast Asia today as well as in India and in Arabia. Thus, we have an established link that such hair evolved along this southern coastal route which lies in the tropics (NOT in cold climate areas) assuming that such hair didn't evolve in tropical Africa first since again there are populations in the Sahara as well as sub-Sahara who have loose hair, including the Sudan and Horn region which was the alleged source for OOA.
We told you this many times before in practically every thread on the topic, but of course you 'forgot' and repeat your lie again. [/QB]
You are the representative of some "we" ???
Your comment seems dumb in light of the map you posted. Look above little dude. I told your ass before all these OOA's must pass through Iran/Afghanistan/Pakistan if maintaining a southernmost route. At this point that route strays out of the tropical zone. This is the route before getting to India as your map clealry shows. I mean really.
People who did not stay in this area to long would not have developed straight hair. They proceeded East and South and wound up in places like Papua and maintained tightly coiled hair. Other people may have settled in Iran/Pakistan/Afghanistan regions, developed straight hair and thousands of years later migrated East and South again, their skin darkening (yet no being their long enough for an undocumented threortical re-kinkying)
The skin and hair selection are not affected at the same rates of time by environmental factors and by different envionmental factors.
And who's to say the ones who were to be straight haired even only settled in the southernmost route? It's 60,000 year ago. For all we know they could have been in Turkmenistan or Darlag for 30kya before then going South and getting darker skin. There is a huge amount of time to accomodate these changes. The Europeans for instance have a brow ridge that is closer to the most prominent brow ridges that of the Austrailian Aboriginees, Africans are less prominent in brow ridge than Europeans. I suppose there is also a possibilty that straight hair came from Neanaderthal/Denisova but I never heard that theorized. Theory B you heard it here first. The Austrailan Aborigine has the highest amount of Neanaderthal/Denisova ancestry. Denisiova in particular at 5-6%. the Denisova site is in Siberia. yet the Aborigenees have there genes. That suggests the could have been up North for thousands of years before going into Austraila or the the Denisova was once lower maybe some halfway point.
Little man , your alternative theory is that straight hair is completley random? That it has no relation to environmental conditions?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Yet, you are denying skeletal and hair geographical differences.
This is just mumbo jumbo. Gill spoke of climatic zones as selective pressures for those types of phenotypical traits. Of course, since those types of climatic zones are delimited by geographic zones, you're going to find the said traits in certain geographical parameters. This doesn't support typology, you dumb wanker, because the said zones aren't specific to any racial group. What are you gonna do, say that low UV and dry ambient air is only specific to areas where Caucasians live? Has there ever been a time when you posted a source that didn't stomp your own claims into the ground? LMAO. They all contradict you.
quote:Yes, but the few regions those traits appear in the late Holocene are at the peripheries -- they are explained through Caucasoid settlement.
You farthead. These are some of the most linear populations you'll find. You know full well what Coon said about their body builds. You don’t even want to go there, trust me.
quote:If you found an orthognathic and leptorrhine fossil in Central/West/South Africa then it might overturn Coon's or Howell's model.
This shows how what a fraud you are. You know squat about anthropology. Only a moron would find it reasonable to suggest that narrow noses are selected for in wet tropical forest.
quote:There is nothing Caucasoid about that skull.
Moving the goalpost. Proving my claim that non-negroid traits evolved in Africa does not necessitate the presence of Caucasian typology.
quote:You will be talking about their old works.
And you're lying out of your ass. Nothing has been retracted, and the Gamble Cave remains aren't even the most non-negroid of the bunch. Marginalizing their phenotype and making them appear anomalous in the region only further stomps your dumbass claims into the group, as Elmenteita A is clearly more divergent from the Negroid typology than Gamble Cave 4 and 5, and Elmenteita A is intact.
quote:This is modern and the populations are mixed.
Circular reasoning again. If I ask your dumbass why they're admixed, you'll tell me that they have non-negroid typology. I then ask you to prove that there is such a thing as a group that is purely of negroid typology, and you point to the non-sequitor and fabrication that there is no non-negroid group in Upper Palaeolithic. All you do is argue in circles and use logical fallacies. Outside of simply repeating that ortochnathism is caucasoid, you neglect to prove why its caucasoid with actual evidence outside of the paradigm of typology. When a paradigm is being questioned, you can't prove the validity of that paradigm, by using the logic that's inherent to that paradigm. That's like someone trying to convince an atheist that Noah's flood happened ’’because Genesis says so’’. This is the type of impaired thinking that you feel comfortable in. You bask in it. LMAO.
quote:Howells (1959) claimed Grimaldi was not Caucasoid, and that they were simply an "oddity" (he didn't attempt to classify them). Coon did though maintain they were Caucasoid, but only because he believed there were errors in their reconstructions [there's some controversy behind it].
This is irrelevant mumbo jumbo. Address what I was saying. If the remains I posted are outliers because they were platyrrhine and prognathous, explain why the ortochnathous and narrow nosed European UP fossils STILL don't cluster with Europeans over other populations? This is an example of a Upper Palaeolithic narrow nosed European that your dumbass thinks is caucasoid, simply because its narrow nosed:
LMAO. That late UP European skull is everything BUT typical of Caucasian typology. This proves that you’re creating a dichotomy that doesn't even exist when you try to seperate out broad nosed UP European fossils from the narrow nosed ones. Quintin 2006 said that the broad nosed and prognathous UP European samples were typical of UP Europeans in general:
Their distinctive characteristics recall those of other Italian Upper Palaeolithic individuals. Like thes ones they are definable as cromagnonoids. --Quintin 2006
quote:Upper Cave (Shandingdong).
^Another example of how you stretch racial typologies (when convenient) to include whatever you want to include (only to call others 'lumpers'). First you Euroloons call European Upper Palaeolithic fossils 'Caucasoid' even though they cluster closer to certain Africans, Southeast Asians and Oceanians. Now you Euroloons call the long Neurocranium having Upper Cave skull 'mongoloid'. LMAO.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Using a worldwide sample of modern populations to establish abaseline, the three Upper Cave crania were compared to each other.Since there is disagreement over the sex of UC 102, this specimen is treated alternately as a female and as a male. Results show that theUpper Cave specimens exhibit significantly more variation than doindividuals within more recent human populations, especially if UC102 is considered male. Furthermore, results indicate that the fossils never fall into the same modern human group, and that each specimen is significantly atypical of its nearest modern neighbor inmultivariate space --Cunningham et al 2002
What were you saying again about Upper Cave having a Mongoloid morphology? BTW, this excerpt also applies to UP Europeans and modern ones. LMAO off at you and that retard Wollpoff.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass dimwit: You are the representative of some "we" ???
YES. Because I and others have told you countless times that there is no evidence that loose hair evolved in cold climates since so many tropically adapted populations have them including those in Africa.
quote:Your comment seems dumb in light of the map you posted. Look above little dude. I told your ass before all these OOA's must pass through Iran/Afghanistan/Pakistan if maintaining a southernmost route. At this point that route strays out of the tropical zone. This is the route before getting to India as your map clearly shows. I mean really.
Yes let's look at the map.
As you can see, the solid lines represent KNOWN routes taken by early humans which is southern coastal. The dotted lines represent hypothetical routes, though the one from the Horn into Arabia seems likely in light of recent evidence. And even IF the northerly route through the Sinai, Levant, and Fertile crescent did happen, it's latitudes are about the same as the Maghreb which really isn't 'cold' climate so much as subtropical to temperate.
But we know the northern route Out-of-Africa did not happen due to both the genetic distribution of the oldest OOA lineages as well as geological circumstances at that time.
Scientists confirm early humans were from Africa but their route out was via Arabia not Egypt 'Evolutionary history shows that human populations likely originated in Africa, and the Genographic Project, the most extensive survey of human population genetic data to date, suggests where they went next: Modern humans migrated out of Africa via a southern route through Arabia, rather than a northern route by way of Egypt,' a spokesman for IBM said, who were involved in the research. Scientists used a new complicated research technique to study the path of the humans. Called recombination, they broke up DNA molecules and recombined them to form new pairs. By doing this they can see the relationships with humans today and 70,000 years ago…
'With evidence that the genetic diversity in southern India is closer to Africa than that of Europe, this suggests that other fields of research such as archaeology and anthropology should look for additional evidence on the migration route of early humans to further explore this theory.'
The geological reason??
“By 90kya, a global freeze turned most of Africa above the equator into extreme desert along with most of Arabia and the Levant. The only evidence of hominids in the Levant at that time come from a few Neanderthal habitations.” Stephen Oppenheimer.
The same extreme desert condition stretched into Iran-Afghan area which is why Europe was colonized by modern humans relatively late, lyinass moron!
quote:People who did not stay in this area too long would not have developed straight hair. They proceeded East and South and wound up in places like Papua and maintained tightly coiled hair. Other people may have settled in Iran/Pakistan/Afghanistan regions, developed straight hair and thousands of years later migrated East and South again, their skin darkening (yet no being their long enough for an undocumented theortical re-kinkying)
ROTFLMAO
Your above speculation (and not even theory because a theory is based on evidence) is silly for the obvious reasons I explained above—the genetics of the Iran-Afghan populations don’t match as well as the non-archaeology based on the geological situation that it was a harsh desert. And your whole notion of them becoming lighter and darker again is also ridiculous since we know it takes an extremely long time for skin to become light in the first place but NOT for hair to change form per the evidence cited in this very thread! And your nonsense explanation still does not include Africans with loose wavy hair who live nowhere near any cold climates!
quote:The skin and hair selection are not affected at the same rates of time by environmental factors and by different envionmental factors.
You’re right! The genes for hair are more mutable than for skin color.
quote:And who's to say the ones who were to be straight haired even only settled in the southernmost route? It's 60,000 year ago. For all we know they could have been in Turkmenistan or Darlag for 30kya before then going South and getting darker skin. There is a huge amount of time to accomodate these changes. The Europeans for instance have a brow ridge that is closer to the most prominent brow ridges that of the Austrailian Aboriginees, Africans are less prominent in brow ridge than Europeans. I suppose there is also a possibilty that straight hair came from Neanaderthal/Denisova but I never heard that theorized. Theory B you heard it here first. The Austrailan Aborigine has the highest amount of Neanaderthal/Denisova ancestry. Denisiova in particular at 5-6%. the Denisova site is in Siberia. yet the Aborigenees have there genes. That suggests the could have been up North for thousands of years before going into Austraila or the the Denisova was once lower maybe some halfway point.
B|tch, I presented evidence. YOU did not!
quote:Little man , your alternative theory is that straight hair is completley random? That it has no relation to environmental conditions?
Little twit, when have I ever said it was “random”?! I’ve always maintained that it was an adaptation but NOT to “cold” as your dumbass claims! LOL My theory which Swenet agrees is that loose hair is an adaptation to arid conditions, especially desert like climates as that was the situation for the OOA migrants as it is for the African Saharans and Sahelians as it is for Australian aboriginals—-ALL of whom have loose wavy hair!
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
Aren't Andamanese, Papuans, and Melanesians descended from people who went the southern route too? Lioness needs to explain why they didn't inherit straight hair from Afghan ancestors like the Australian aborigines.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ First of all, there was NO "Afghan" ancestry as the southern coastal route was exactly that! Modern Afghanistan is landlocked and the closest presence the OOA people had was in the coasts of southeastern Iran and then Pakistan which lie in the latitude as southern Egypt.
According to lyinass the kinky haired folks left the Afghan area sooner and did not spend as much time there as the folks who 'developed' wavy hair. LOL However, again the genetics don't match with folks in the Afghan or even northern India but folks in southern India. And as I mentioned the harsh desert environment was too harsh for any habitation.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote:My theory which Swenet agrees is that loose hair is an adaptation to arid conditions, especially desert like climates as that was the situation for the OOA migrants as it is for the African Saharans and Sahelians as it is for Australian aboriginals—-ALL of whom have loose wavy hair!
How then do we explain the hair of the Southern African San who apparently evolved in extremely dry desert conditions. The Kalahari and Namib deserts are vast areas that have been like the Sahel and Sahara zones in terms of ecology, climate, etc. They have been in that area for more than 25,000 years yet they are not as heavily pigmented as Sahel groups such as the Dogon, Dinka or Nuer. On the other hand the hair is extremely coiled--more so that other African groups.
The most apt theory it seems is one based on the idea of "population isolates" living for thousands of years and breeding among themselves uniquely. [It's much the same way that languages develop--but at a much faster rate].
These "population isolates" over time develop traits that have no particular adaptive value one way or another. Thus hair forms of any type could develop in any climatic conditions. There does seem however that pigmentation is subject to adaptive pressures on account of the effect of UV rays. The same may be said for average population heights. The San are small and gracile yet the Dinka are quite tall. The same for nasal forms. Nasal forms of any metric can evolve anywhere and ultimate averages are determined only by the contingencies of the breeding mechanisms within population isolates.
If hair forms evolved according to climatic principles then how does one explain male pattern baldness--if the ultimate adaptive value of cranial hair is to offer some sort of protection against UV rays or in tropical regions, cranial cooling?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: My theory which Swenet agrees is that loose hair is an adaptation to arid conditions, especially desert like climates as that was the situation for the OOA migrants as it is for the African Saharans and Sahelians as it is for Australian aboriginals—-ALL of whom have loose wavy hair!
Notice Djhootie tries to pull a fast one here. Instead of talking about very straight hair as many Asian Indians have he is switching to his own terminology for a different hair type of his own terminology "loose wavy".
His alternative theory which is not held by scientists is that "loose wavy" hair is an adaptation to arid conditions but no reasoning is given why such hair would be more advantageous in dry conditions. He thinks such hair has deep roots in North African ancestry that go back before any foreigners such as Phoenicians entered the region. But as I have pointed out to his ass before Khosians do not have anything close to this type of hair. So then some acrobatics ensue, that Khosians lived in some less arid conditions back in the day. This type of maneuvering can be applied whenever convenient. One could make arguments that people have not been in NA long enough time for this hypothetically reasoned change to occur and furthermore the Sahara hasn't been arid for that long.
He also theorizes skin lightening takes a long time. The latest research , we've all seen the Europeans Pale skin article a million times say that skin color change is shorter than once thought. But the point is irrelevant and works against his own position. The topic is Indians and Australians both dark skin. In fact hair change takes much longer than skin color , the opposite of his claim. I challenge anybody to show article book evidence otherwise.
Most Asian Indians have straight hair and dark skin. So we don't even have to go to a much much further location away from the exit from Africa OOA migrants who would eventually end up in Australia.
Why is there so much straight hair in India and so little in Sahelians or Maghebians who are of pure African descent? Obviously it is not an adaptation to arid conditions of the Sahara or it would be much more common. There would be isolated tribe of North Africans/Sahelians where they all had straight hair.
Straight hair is more divergent from tightly coiled afro type hair than is wavy or curly. yet the Sahara is drier than most of India. Any fool can see straight hair is very common all over the colder Northern hemisphere and afro kinky hair is not.
^^^ The Indus Valley Civilization
Pakistan is located on a great landmass north of the tropic of capricorn (between latitudes 77° and 87° N), it has a continental type of climate characterized by extreme variations of temperature, both seasonally and daily. This is why so many Indians have straight hair, colder temperatures. Kinky hair is more suited to humid climates so perspiration can release easily. Why don't the Amazonian have it? It's more evidence that it takes much longer for hair type to change.
The basic problem is there is no logic behind straight hair being more suited to dry climates
Djehooties theories defy common sense and published theories on the evolution of hair. They are politically motivated
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Admittedly, there are no strict causal lines between human traits and environmental conditions except in some fairly evident cases.
Take the case of Western Jews who are just as depigmented as other Westerners yet they seem to have a perennial problem with their hair which can run from straight to kinky as the following shows.
quote:Pakistan is located on a great landmass north of the tropic of capricorn (between latitudes 77° and 87° N), it has a continental type of climate characterized by extreme variations of temperature, both seasonally and daily.
Geography lesson anyone?
Pakistan is 32 degrees North of the Equator and above the Tropic of Cancer.
It is on the approximately the same latitude as Georgia in the U.S. and Morocco in North Africa. The subtropics is defined as any area whose latitude is between 23.5 degrees to 40 degrees N/S of the equator. Pakistan is a subtropical country.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Of course, since those types of climatic zones are delimited by geographic zones, you're going to find the said traits in certain geographical parameters.
Finally. That's all racial types are [enviro-climatic metric/non-metric constellations]. Yet you deny they exist. They aren't arbitrary, as you now admit, since racial traits in origin were geograpically delineated as climatic adaptations. Someone can't then choose x, y, z randomly and attatch a label to it.
quote:This doesn't support typology, you dumb wanker, because the said zones aren't specific to any racial group.
Immediately contradicting your previous statement: "you're going to find the said traits in certain geographical parameters".
quote:These are some of the most linear populations you'll find. You know full well what Coon said about their body builds. You don’t even want to go there, trust me.
Post-cranial indices are more complex. Many aren't racial.
quote:This shows how what a fraud you are. You know squat about anthropology. Only a moron would find it reasonable to suggest that narrow noses are selected for in wet tropical forest.
Back to "you're going to find the said traits in certain geographical parameters" again.
Make up your mind.
quote:Moving the goalpost. Proving my claim that non-negroid traits evolved in Africa does not necessitate the presence of Caucasian typology.
You've yet to show a single UP African specimen with Caucasoid features. I'm not sure why you claim its moving the goalpost, when you are the one claiming all features are indigenous to Africa. Yet you can't find a single prehistoric fossil with them. Sheer lunacy.
quote:And you're lying out of your ass. Nothing has been retracted, and the Gamble Cave remains aren't even the most non-negroid of the bunch. Marginalizing their phenotype and making them appear anomalous in the region only further stomps your dumbass claims into the group, as Elmenteita A is clearly more divergent from the Negroid typology than Gamble Cave 4 and 5, and Elmenteita A is intact.
The Elmenteitan remains are post-Pleistocene, not UP. They don't help you.
Elmenteita A also has prognathism:
"There is some definite protrusion of the maxillary bone below the nose...there is some alveolar prognathism" (Rightmire, 1975)
Give it up. Not a single early prehistoric orthognathic-leptorrhine fossils exists in Africa. Caucasoid features did not evolve there.
quote:Circular reasoning again. If I ask your dumbass why they're admixed, you'll tell me that they have non-negroid typology. I then ask you to prove that there is such a thing as a group that is purely of negroid typology, and you point to the non-sequitor and fabrication that there is no non-negroid group in Upper Palaeolithic. All you do is argue in circles and use logical fallacies. Outside of simply repeating that ortochnathism is caucasoid, you neglect to prove why its caucasoid with actual evidence outside of the paradigm of typology. When a paradigm is being questioned, you can't prove the validity of that paradigm, by using the logic that's inherent to that paradigm. That's like someone trying to convince an atheist that Noah's flood happened ’’because Genesis says so’’. This is the type of impaired thinking that you feel comfortable in. You bask in it. LMAO.
Back now to "said zones aren't specific to any racial group"...
Are they are not? You keep shifting positions:
"said zones aren't specific to any racial group"
"you're going to find the said traits in certain geographical parameters"
quote:This is irrelevant mumbo jumbo. Address what I was saying. If the remains I posted are outliers because they were platyrrhine and prognathous, explain why the ortochnathous and narrow nosed European UP fossils STILL don't cluster with Europeans over other populations?
Those studies aren't typological. This has already been explained.
quote:Quintin 2006 said that the broad nosed and prognathous UP European samples were typical of UP Europeans in general
He's wrong. I asked for you to show a full list, instead you've resorted to picture spams.
quote:Another example of how you stretch racial typologies (when convenient) to include whatever you want to include (only to call others 'lumpers'). First you Euroloons call European Upper Palaeolithic fossils 'Caucasoid' even though they cluster closer to certain Africans, Southeast Asians and Oceanians. Now you Euroloons call the long Neurocranium having Upper Cave skull 'mongoloid'. LMAO.
Do you mean dolichocephaly? There's three skulls from that site, as Wu notes:
"[T]here is no reason to consider the Upper Cave fossils are representing anything other than a Mongoloid population" (Wu, 1961)
They have typical Mongoloid features. Turner (1992) for example notes that his Sinodont pattern was “present in the late Pleistocene north China Upper cave crania”.
You can get into many more traits, but Palaeo-Mongoloids and Palaeo-Caucasoids had dolichocephalic skulls, so this is no evidence of 'African' affinity. Yes, Dana, and the other Afroloons make the dolichocephalic = "Black", brachycephalic = "White or Asian" equation, is this where you got it from?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin:
quote:Pakistan is located on a great landmass north of the tropic of capricorn (between latitudes 77° and 87° N), it has a continental type of climate characterized by extreme variations of temperature, both seasonally and daily.
Geography lesson anyone?
Pakistan is 32 degrees North of the Equator and above the Tropic of Cancer.
It is on the approximately the same latitude as Georgia in the U.S. and Morocco in North Africa. The subtropics is defined as any area whose latitude is between 23.5 degrees to 40 degrees N/S of the equator. Pakistan is a subtropical country.
My quote made refernce to the Eurasia landmass of which Pakistan resides
It is silly to assume the climate of Pakistan home to many mountain ranges such as the Hindu Kush is similar to Georgia and Morroco because it is at a similar latitude.
Pakistan lies in the temperate zone. Temperature in Islamabad, which is the capital city of Pakistan, varies from 2°C (35.6 F) in the winter in January to 40 C (104°F) in June. So the climate of Pakistan can be called to be extreme. There is snow in some of the mountainous regions.
The temperature is more uniform in Karachi than in Islamabad, ranging from an average daily low of 13° C (55.4 F) during winter evenings to an average daily high of 34° C (93 F) on summer days.
Weather for Srinagar (North Paksitan) and Kasmir India at the current moment is 3 C (37 F)
Marrakech , other hand is at this moment 20 C (67 F) in the winter.
30 degrees difference in other words fail
___________________________________________
lioness productions
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Of course, since those types of climatic zones are delimited by geographic zones, you're going to find the said traits in certain geographical parameters.
Finally. That's all racial types are [enviro-climatic metric/non-metric constellations].
What do you mean ''finally'', you dumbass. Africa offers plenty of the said environmental zones (Sahel, Sahara, Kalahari, the region along the red sea and the region opposite of Madagascar), as do ALL continents. That means that the traits in question **cannot** be consistent with typology (which states that heterogeneity necessarily suggest the presence of multipe races) per definition.
This is not surprising since the selective forces of climate are probably the primary forces of nature that have shaped human races with regard not only to skin color and hair form but also the underlying bony structures of the nose, cheekbones, etc."
Nowhere does it say that heterogeneity is only to be explained through racial admixture (like you're falsely claiming).
quote:Immediately contradicting your previous statement: "you're going to find the said traits in certain geographical parameters".
Only if you're so dumb that you don't realize that those ''certain geographical parameters'' I and Gill mentioned, exist on ALL continents, as explained above.
quote:Post-cranial indices are more complex. Many aren't racial.
LMAO. Dumbass, they have the same slight muscle markings/feminine build you've called ''negroid'' and ''non-Caucasoid'' plenty of times. Now they're ''not racial''? How do you justify to yourself that you're such a fraud? LMAO. What do you say to yourself to not have to deal with how much of a lying fraud you are?
quote:Back to "you're going to find the said traits in certain geographical parameters" again.
I've never left that position, that's exactly why I'm saying that Central Africa isn't one of those geographical parameters, but the Sahel, Sahara, Kalahari desert, the region along the red sea and the region opposite of Madagascar are. If you find this contradicting, maybe your IQ is just too low.
quote:You've yet to show a single UP African specimen with Caucasoid features. I'm not sure why you claim its moving the goalpost, when you are the one claiming all features are indigenous to Africa.
Yes, you're low IQ indeed. I've just told your dumbass that I don't need to prove the presence of Caucasoid traits in Africa, to prove that non-negroid traits evolved there, and you just repeat your request for the very Caucasoid traits that I've just told your dumbass are irrelevant to prove my claims. LMAO.
quote:The Elmenteitan remains are post-Pleistocene, not UP. They don't help you.
Strawman argument and red herring. I've never said that Elmenteita A was Upper Palaeolithic. I posted it to refute your dumbass claim that we don't really know what they looked like because: ''The skulls are though too damaged to make accurate reconstructions''.
quote:Back now to "said zones aren't specific to any racial group"...
Now that I've show above that you're hallucinating when you try to accuse me of flip flopping, address this post again will ya, and this time, without the blatant lie that I'm flip-flopping:
Circular reasoning again. If I ask your dumbass why they're admixed, you'll tell me that they have non-negroid typology. I then ask you to prove that there is such a thing as a group that is purely of negroid typology, and you point to the non-sequitor and fabrication that there is no non-negroid group in Upper Palaeolithic. All you do is argue in circles and use logical fallacies. Outside of simply repeating that ortochnathism is caucasoid, you neglect to prove why its caucasoid with actual evidence outside of the paradigm of typology. When a paradigm is being questioned, you can't prove the validity of that paradigm, by using the logic that's inherent to that paradigm. That's like someone trying to convince an atheist that Noah's flood happened ’’because Genesis says so’’. This is the type of impaired thinking that you feel comfortable in. You bask in it. LMAO.
quote:Those studies aren't typological. This has already been explained.
What do you mean those studies aren't typological? You've said yourself that narrow nosed Abri Pataud and Chandelade weren't Caucasoid, what does the set-up of a study have to do with anything?
quote:He's wrong. I asked for you to show a full list, instead you've resorted to picture spams.
He isn't wrong you dumbass. European UP fossils generally cluster together in multivariate space because they have low vaults, short faces, rectangular eye sockets and long neurocrania (all decidedly un-European).
Crania to the right of the plot exhibit tall faces, and crania to the bottom of the plot exhibit long vaults and short orbits. --Grine 2007
That many fossils have broad nose and prognathism, and others do not, doesn't detangle that cluster you dumbass.
quote:Do you mean dolichocephaly? There's three skulls from that site, as Wu notes:
You just keep doing the same thing over and over. You cite sources that either aren't reproduced by other authors and/or that weren't basing their claims on statistical analysis. Get that pseudo-science outta my face.
quote:You can get into many more traits, but Palaeo-Mongoloids and Palaeo-Caucasoids had dolichocephalic skulls, so this is no evidence of 'African' affinity.
You're retarded. First you say that the Zhoukoudian skulls display mongoloid typology, even though they DON'T. And when you're forced to admit that, you go off on a tangent on whether that means they're African. LMAO.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote:30 degrees difference in other words fail
LOL. Nice wiggle away try. You posted the map of the Pakistan area and you talked about it being located in a landmass being "between 77 degrees and 87 degrees North"[ of the Equator]. LOL. Now where on earth(literally) would that be?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: [QB]
quote:My theory which Swenet agrees is that loose hair is an adaptation to arid conditions, especially desert like climates as that was the situation for the OOA migrants as it is for the African Saharans and Sahelians as it is for Australian aboriginals—-ALL of whom have loose wavy hair!
How then do we explain the hair of the Southern African San who apparently evolved in extremely dry desert conditions.
You're just assuming this because they live there today. If not, prove that Khoisan are adapted to those environments.
With the exception of SOME khoisan, particularly in the !Kung group, they don't evince adaptation to hot-dry regions in their face, like these Nilo-Saharans in Southern Ethiopia, for example, do:
This makes much more sense (see the depicted retreat of Khoisan people):
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Swenet has yet to explain how straight hair is an adpatation to dry environement
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^Its just one of my hunches, which I don't necessarily subscribe to as much as I use to. Usually I just explain it in terms of clinal distribution of ecological factors, without necessarily trying to pin it down to a single selective pressure.
Whatever caused Levantines and Arabs to have it, would caused long term inhabitants of the Sahara to have it too.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Africa offers plenty of the said environmental zones (Sahel, Sahara, Kalahari, the region along the red sea and the region opposite of Madagascar), as do ALL continents.
No they don't. There is only one type of adaptation in Africa: heat, of which is divided into two environments: humid heat and dry heat.
Coon et al, 1950 -
"(1) Negroid: all peoples showing special adaptation to bright light and intense heat."
There is no temperate or cold adaptation zones in Africa. Look at the Koppen Climate Map.
quote:That means that the traits in question **cannot** be consistent with typology (which states that heterogeneity necessarily suggest the presence of multipe races) per definition.
No it means you lack basic education in geography and climate.
quote:Only if you're so dumb that you don't realize that those ''certain geographical parameters'' I and Gill mentioned, exist on ALL continents, as explained above.
Where is the temperate or cold climatic zone on Africa?
quote:LMAO. Dumbass, they have the same slight muscle markings/feminine build you've called ''negroid'' and ''non-Caucasoid'' plenty of times. Now they're ''not racial''? How do you justify to yourself that you're such a fraud? LMAO. What do you say to yourself to not have to deal with how much of a lying fraud you are?
I don't know what you are talking about. I've been sceptical about post-cranial indices from day 1. I even uploaded a thread on Jesse Owens' crural index. Many of these have proven unreliable in forensic anthropology.
quote:I don't need to prove the presence of Caucasoid traits in Africa, to prove that non-negroid traits evolved there
So non-Negroid traits evolved in Africa, but all the fossils just magically disappeared?
What I asked from you was simple: if Caucasoid features appeared as adaptations native to Africa, where are the fossils that show this?
quote:The Elmenteitan remains are post-Pleistocene, not UP. They don't help you. Strawman argument and red herring. I've never said that Elmenteita A was Upper Palaeolithic. I posted it to refute your dumbass claim that we don't really know what they looked like because: ''The skulls are though too damaged to make accurate reconstructions''.
Yea... you still fail to show a single fossil.
Why do you hold your beliefs in light of the fact there is zero evidence for them?
Like I said, all I asked was for you to find a prehistoric [early or UP] Africa skull with Caucasoid traits. As you know, none exist. So why claim Caucasoid traits evolved there? Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Africa offers plenty of the said environmental zones (Sahel, Sahara, Kalahari, the region along the red sea and the region opposite of Madagascar), as do ALL continents.
No they don't. There is only one type of adaptation in Africa: heat, of which is divided into two environments: humid heat and dry heat.
Nasal bridge elevation and elongation is also a trait influenced by the forces of selection. These are related to the relative lack of moisture in inspired air (Glan-ville, 1969). That in turn is only very tenuously determined by the intensity of solar radiation. Air in tropical deserts, of course, is obviously arid (...) --Brace 1993
Weiner (1954) reworked the data collected by Thomson and Buxton (1923) using wet bulb temperature and the vapor pressure of the air as additional climatic variables'that may be correlated with Nasal Index. In 146 groups studied Weiner (1954) found nasal index to be most highly correlated with the vapor pressure of the air(r = 0.82) and he postulated, that the functional basis underlying the Nasal Index - climate relationship is the humidification of the inspired air. --Leon, 1975
Stop wasting my time, dufus. Either prove Glanville, Leon etc wrong, or shut your trap.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote:You're just assuming this because they live there today. If not, prove that Khoisan are adapted to those environments.
The San have been in Kalahari desert area for at least 27,000 years based on the age estimation of their Cave Art in the Western Cape of South Africa. That part of Africa is just outside the tropics in its most southerly portion. There has been snow in South Africa and in the winter it is freezing. So here we have a group of people living for at least 25,000 years in cool/cold arid conditions. The climate of South Africa is really like that of the Mediterranean: wheat, grapes, and apples are easily grown there.
The San is less pigmented than other Africans further North but their hair is much more coiled. Compare Wole Soyinka's white "bird's nest" topping with the hair of the average San. There is a palpable difference.
My take on the matter is apart from pigmentation which is causally dependent on the extent of UV rays, other human physiognomic traits evolve mainly on the principle of contingent assorted mated derived from population isolation.
This explains the fact that while North East Asians are much more on par with Europeans in terms of pigmentation their nasal forms(indices) and facial structure(generally short and round with high cheek bones) are consonant with certain African populations.
As I have heard it put colloquially: "Chinese people have flat noses and chinky eyes". The East Asian epicanthic fold is also found among the San in Southern Africa.
And yet East Asian hair is distinct from European hair in that many Europeans do have wavy, curly, even kinky hair despite evolving in cold and arid climates. My links to "Jewish hair" bear this out.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: How then do we explain the hair of the Southern African San who apparently evolved in extremely dry desert conditions. The Kalahari and Namib deserts are vast areas that have been like the Sahel and Sahara zones in terms of ecology, climate, etc. They have been in that area for more than 25,000 years yet they are not as heavily pigmented as Sahel groups such as the Dogon, Dinka or Nuer. On the other hand the hair is extremely coiled--more so that other African groups.
Your question above was answered before on multiple occasions, though I don't know if you or others asked it. But basically the the ancestors of the San did NOT originally live in desert environment. During the glacial maximum of the late Pleistocene at the time of OOA. Southern Africa was not only humid but a wetland type of environment. The Kalahari and Namib deserts formed only recently.
quote:The most apt theory it seems is one based on the idea of "population isolates" living for thousands of years and breeding among themselves uniquely. [It's much the same way that languages develop--but at a much faster rate].
These "population isolates" over time develop traits that have no particular adaptive value one way or another. Thus hair forms of any type could develop in any climatic conditions. There does seem however that pigmentation is subject to adaptive pressures on account of the effect of UV rays. The same may be said for average population heights. The San are small and gracile yet the Dinka are quite tall. The same for nasal forms. Nasal forms of any metric can evolve anywhere and ultimate averages are determined only by the contingencies of the breeding mechanisms within population isolates.
If hair forms evolved according to climatic principles then how does one explain male pattern baldness--if the ultimate adaptive value of cranial hair is to offer some sort of protection against UV rays or in tropical regions, cranial cooling?
Male pattern baldness has NOTHING to do with hair form but is the natural result of side-effects of testosterone on certain individuals whose cells cannot metabolize certain toxic effects of the hormone properly. (Note male pattern baldness is observed in a number of species of mammals including our closest relatives chimpanzees) Though those with thin, non eliptical type hair are more susceptible to hair loss than thicker or more eliptical type hair. As for population isolates, I don't know what this has to do exactly with hair form. The Tazmanians were very much isolated yet had tightly coiled hair which differed from their relatives in mainland Australia with wavy hair. Papuans and other Melanesians had tightly coiled hair yet certain aborigines in Indonesia had wavy hair as well. Even in southern India while the majority of indigenes had wavy hair there were some small populations who had tightly curled hair as well. I don't know exactly what population isolation or congregation have anything to do with hair form.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin:
quote:You're just assuming this because they live there today. If not, prove that Khoisan are adapted to those environments.
The San have been in Kalahari desert area for at least 27,000 years based on the age estimation of their Cave Art in the Western Cape of South Africa.
How do you know extant San are descendants of Stone Age Kalahari groups? Its just an assumption--one that isn't corroborated by their morphology. They're clearly adapted to a high lattitude, as that is what their bodyplan indirectly bespeaks (limb ratios, skin color), but what part of their morphology suggest specialization to the Kalahari desert?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^^ Exactly! These folks assume that the environments back in those times were the same as today!
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,: Notice Djhootie tries to pull a fast one here. Instead of talking about very straight hair as many Asian Indians have he is switching to his own terminology for a different hair type of his own terminology "loose wavy".
B|tch, nobody is trying to pull off anything except YOU-- pulling sh|t out yo' lyinass!
LOL @ "Asian Indians". ALL Indians are 'Asian' but not all Indians are aboriginal. Aborigianl Indian hair is actually wavy and NOT bone straight like typical East Asian and even many northern Indians who are of Central Asian ancestry! See what I'm talking about pulling crap out your lyinass?
quote:His alternative theory which is not held by scientists is that "loose wavy" hair is an adaptation to arid conditions but no reasoning is given why such hair would be more advantageous in dry conditions. He thinks such hair has deep roots in North African ancestry that go back before any foreigners such as Phoenicians entered the region. But as I have pointed out to his ass before Khosians do not have anything close to this type of hair. So then some acrobatics ensue, that Khosians lived in some less arid conditions back in the day. This type of maneuvering can be applied whenever convenient. One could make arguments that people have not been in NA long enough time for this hypothetically reasoned change to occur and furthermore the Sahara hasn't been arid for that long.
Dumb b|tch, we (Explorer, Swenet, and I) gave you an explanation on this how many times?? You assume that the Khoisan have always lived in a desert environment when:
1. Archaeology shows the Khoisan ancestors once had territory much greater than today's Kalahari and Namib deserts
and
2. Geology shows that the mentioned deserts of southern Africa did not always exist and that Southern Africa was much more humid than it is today!
Now prove the above points above are wrong or shut the hell up about Khoisan people whom you use as a pathetic strawman.
quote:He also theorizes skin lightening takes a long time. The latest research , we've all seen the Europeans Pale skin article a million times say that skin color change is shorter than once thought. But the point is irrelevant and works against his own position. The topic is Indians and Australians both dark skin. In fact hair change takes much longer than skin color , the opposite of his claim. I challenge anybody to show article book evidence otherwise.
LOL Dumb B|tch, the article you cite clearly states that European PALENESS happened relatively recently! So what are you saying, then? That the ancestors of Europeans were black and only recently turned pale??! LOL We told your dumbass before, that before Europeans turned pale they had to have already been relatively light already and that such a light complexion from their original dark (BLACK) coloring of their tropical ancestors took greater time! Your stupid ass keeps confusing European paleness or 'whiteness' for lighter skin in general! LMAO
quote:Most Asian Indians have straight hair and dark skin. So we don't even have to go to a much much further location away from the exit from Africa OOA migrants who would eventually end up in Australia.
Yet Most Indians have genetic influence POST the original OOA southern coastal route and even more recently from Central Asia. Most Indians-- the vast majority live in the NORTH. The article I cited talks about SOUTHERN Indians, and particularly isolated tribal groups! Their hair is not straight but wavy like Australian aborigines and Saharan Africans.
quote:Why is there so much straight hair in India and so little in Sahelians or Maghebians who are of pure African descent? Obviously it is not an adaptation to arid conditions of the Sahara or it would be much more common. There would be isolated tribe of North Africans/Sahelians where they all had straight hair.
Straight hair is more divergent from tightly coiled afro type hair than is wavy or curly. yet the Sahara is drier than most of India. Any fool can see straight hair is very common all over the colder Northern hemisphere and afro kinky hair is not.
I answered your dumbass above. The hair of southern Indian adivasi (aboriginals) is not straight so much as wavy. Stop using ALL or MOST Indians for the specific type of Indians I am referring to.
quote:
^^^ The Indus Valley Civilization
Pakistan is located on a great landmass north of the tropic of capricorn (between latitudes 77° and 87° N), it has a continental type of climate characterized by extreme variations of temperature, both seasonally and daily. This is why so many Indians have straight hair, colder temperatures. Kinky hair is more suited to humid climates so perspiration can release easily. Why don't the Amazonian have it? It's more evidence that it takes much longer for hair type to change.
LOL
First of all, what part of 'southern coastal route' do you not understand? The initial OOA migrants were confined to the southern areas along the coast NOT the entire valley up to the Hindu Kush.
Second, climatic patterns today are not the same as it was back then.
And third, many Indians have post southern coastal ancestry, dummy! That's why the genetic study I cited only looked to SOUTHERN Indians NOT northern Indians, dumbass!
Also, your dumbass doesn't know that northern Indian has a large desert i.e. the Thar desert which IS dry and has many aboriginal groups.
quote:The basic problem is there is no logic behind straight hair being more suited to dry climates
The basic problem is that your dumbass lacks basic logic or even an understanding of bio-anthropology, geologic history, or population history. You are just relying on ignorant Eurocentric sh|t out yo' ass.
quote:Djehooties theories defy common sense and published theories on the evolution of hair. They are politically motivated
LMAO My theories are based on actual evidence unlike YOURS dumbass! That's why you pull sh|t out yo' ass like loose hair evolving in the Afghan area when the OOA southern coastal folks who later settled Australia never passed through that area! That's why you have these idiotic theories that they lingered in the north long enough to have lighter skins but then darkened when they moved further south! YOUR whole premise reeks of political agendas, b|tch! So quit projecting hypocritical twit! Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote:How do you know extant San are descendants of Stone Age Kalahari groups? Its just an assumption--one that isn't corroborated by their morphology. They're clearly adapted to a high lattitude, as that is what their bodyplan indirectly bespeaks (limb ratios, skin color), but what part of their morphology suggest specialization to the Kalahari desert?
On the basis that the oldest African haplogroups in Africa are found among the Khoisan. And we don't have any evidence that some prior group living in the area went extinct. The human race began East/Southern Africa and given how humans have migrated far and wide on this earth, it would have been a cake-walk for some to have just walked South into Southern Africa thousands of years ago.
The Kalahari was mostly desert as of 12,000 years ago. The Sahara was supported agriculture until about 6,000 years ago when populations began moving to settlements off the Nile.
As I said: apart from colour other human physiognomic traits arise from contingent mating patterns among members of isolate populations regardless of climatic and geographic locations.
In other words, explanations of hair forms based on climate considerations is just too speculative and 18th century for serious scientific consideration. To say that tightly curled was selected for--on the basis that it helped in cooling the scalp is just speculation. Same for straight hair and arid conditions. We just don't have the empirical causal evidence.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Africa offers plenty of the said environmental zones (Sahel, Sahara, Kalahari, the region along the red sea and the region opposite of Madagascar), as do ALL continents.
No they don't. There is only one type of adaptation in Africa: heat, of which is divided into two environments: humid heat and dry heat.
Nasal bridge elevation and elongation is also a trait influenced by the forces of selection. These are related to the relative lack of moisture in inspired air (Glan-ville, 1969). That in turn is only very tenuously determined by the intensity of solar radiation. Air in tropical deserts, of course, is obviously arid (...) --Brace 1993
Weiner (1954) reworked the data collected by Thomson and Buxton (1923) using wet bulb temperature and the vapor pressure of the air as additional climatic variables'that may be correlated with Nasal Index. In 146 groups studied Weiner (1954) found nasal index to be most highly correlated with the vapor pressure of the air(r = 0.82) and he postulated, that the functional basis underlying the Nasal Index - climate relationship is the humidification of the inspired air. --Leon, 1975
Stop wasting my time, dufus. Either prove Glanville, Leon etc wrong, or shut your trap.
"The second prediction, that trends in nasal cavityshape follow climatic trends of increased difficulty of airconditioning: from hot–humid to cold–dry, was also supported. From the PLS analysis it is shown that nasal cavity shape depends on a combination of both temperature and vapor pressure factors. Maximum covariation between nasal cavity shape and climatic factors follows a cline from hot–humid to cold–dry climate, via hot–dry and cold–humid climate. Temperate populations score intermediate. Although vapor pressure and temperature factors both have similar loadings on the first PLS dimension, the grouping of the populations indicates that the main difference in shape is related to temperature (see Fig. 5). This contradicts the notion that humidity should play a more important role in nasal climate adaptation, as humidification is a more important factor for air-conditioning than temperature adjustment (Negus, 1958)."
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote:Male pattern baldness has NOTHING to do with hair form but is the natural result of side-effects of testosterone on certain individuals whose cells cannot metabolize certain toxic effects of the hormone properly. (Note male pattern baldness is observed in a number of species of mammals including our closest relatives chimpanzees) Though those with thin, non eliptical type hair are more susceptible to hair loss than thicker or more eliptical type hair. As for population isolates, I don't know what this has to do exactly with hair form. The Tazmanians were very much isolated yet had tightly coiled hair which differed from their relatives in mainland Australia with wavy hair. Papuans and other Melanesians had tightly coiled hair yet certain aborigines in Indonesia had wavy hair as well. Even in southern India while the majority of indigenes had wavy hair there were some small populations who had tightly curled hair as well. I don't know exactly what population isolation or congregation have anything to do with hair form.
My point is just being reinforced. My hypothesis is that climatic conditions play no selective role in the hair forms of populations. Hair forms evolve on a purely contingent basis according to the equally contingent mating patterns among members of isolated populations.
If hair forms had any adaptive value in the sense of protecting the scalp then baldness would no longer occur in the case of humans--because hair would be needed to perform its adaptive function--such as cooling the scalp, protecting the scalp from the sun's rays, etc. But males of all geographical locations experience male pattern baldness.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: My point is just being reinforced. My hypothesis is that climatic conditions play no selective role in the hair forms of populations. Hair forms evolve on a purely contingent basis according to the equally contingent mating patterns among members of isolated populations.
How is your point that hair form is sexual selection and not natural selection, when hair form varies from population to population but NOT between sexes of the population. For example among Khoisan who have the tightest coiled hair in the world the same is true for females as with males and the situation is true for Europeans where males and females have the same hair type.
quote:If hair forms had any adaptive value in the sense of protecting the scalp then baldness would no longer occur in the case of humans--because hair would be needed to perform its adaptive function--such as cooling the scalp, protecting the scalp from the sun's rays, etc. But males of all geographical locations experience male pattern baldness.
Did you not read my response?! Male pattern baldness is the result of a disorder among some individual males in metabolizing their testosterone as they age. It has has NOTHING to do with adaptation or hair form! Male pattern baldness depends on the individual. Some males are more predisposed than others, yet certain hair types fall out more easily than others. If your hypothesis holds true, then there wouldn't be any reason for males to have hair at all!
quote:Originally posted by lamin: The Kalahari was mostly desert as of 12,000 years ago. The Sahara was supported agriculture until about 6,000 years ago when populations began moving to settlements off the Nile.
Correct. This begs the question. How can Khoisan be adapted to arid desert environments at all if they've been living in the area for well over 60,000 years yet the Kalahari or at least its range is nowhere as old??!
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Africa offers plenty of the said environmental zones (Sahel, Sahara, Kalahari, the region along the red sea and the region opposite of Madagascar), as do ALL continents.
No they don't. There is only one type of adaptation in Africa: heat, of which is divided into two environments: humid heat and dry heat.
Nasal bridge elevation and elongation is also a trait influenced by the forces of selection. These are related to the relative lack of moisture in inspired air (Glan-ville, 1969). That in turn is only very tenuously determined by the intensity of solar radiation. Air in tropical deserts, of course, is obviously arid (...) --Brace 1993
Weiner (1954) reworked the data collected by Thomson and Buxton (1923) using wet bulb temperature and the vapor pressure of the air as additional climatic variables'that may be correlated with Nasal Index. In 146 groups studied Weiner (1954) found nasal index to be most highly correlated with the vapor pressure of the air(r = 0.82) and he postulated, that the functional basis underlying the Nasal Index - climate relationship is the humidification of the inspired air. --Leon, 1975
Stop wasting my time, dufus. Either prove Glanville, Leon etc wrong, or shut your trap.
"The second prediction, that trends in nasal cavityshape follow climatic trends of increased difficulty of airconditioning: from hot–humid to cold–dry, was also supported. From the PLS analysis it is shown that nasal cavity shape depends on a combination of both temperature and vapor pressure factors. Maximum covariation between nasal cavity shape and climatic factors follows a cline from hot–humid to cold–dry climate, via hot–dry and cold–humid climate. Temperate populations score intermediate. Although vapor pressure and temperature factors both have similar loadings on the first PLS dimension, the grouping of the populations indicates that the main difference in shape is related to temperature (see Fig. 5). This contradicts the notion that humidity should play a more important role in nasal climate adaptation, as humidification is a more important factor for air-conditioning than temperature adjustment (Negus, 1958)."
Dumbass, you're only proving my point. Their samples clearly sort in manner that is expected if air humidity is the selective pressure (e.g., it goes from cold-dry, cold-humid, temperate, and then you get tropical samples, i.e., hot-dry and hot-humid).
Their analysis is also problematic, because they didn't even include groups for which long term residence in hot-dry regions is proven (their hot-dry samples consists of Bushmen Bantu speakers and Australian Aboriginals). If they'd include are Arab, Mojave, African Horn, Thar and Indus Valley desert samples, just to name a few, the hot-dry region would be just as distant from the hot-humid samples.
Fail.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
1) Male pattern baldness is passed on genetically. It is not a disorder. Just as the ancestors of humans lost their tails millions of years ago on account of its non-adaptability so too the genes for male pattern baldness would have disappeared by now because baldness affords no advantage in terms of scalp protection according to the theories being mounted on the matter.
The arguments proposed are that hair form are causally linked to environmental and climatic conditions. I argue against that. The simple reason is that science has not been able to establish direct empirical links to these causalities.
The Kalahari and Namib deserts were on the path towards desertification some 1.2 million years ago. By 200,000 years ago the land was already parched and supported specific desert flora and fauna. The point is that the San have been living in desert and desert-like conditions ever since they set foot in Southern Africa. And that is more than 27,000 years ago based on their Cave art.
Again, the point is that we do not have scientific proof that humid tropical climates produce tightly curled hair and that dry desertic conditions produce straight hair. Claims in this direction are purely speculative.
This reminds of the Lyn-Rushton hypothesis that colder climates select for higher intelligence that warm/hot climates based purely on repported IQ scores for African, Europeans, and Asians.
My first point is simply saying that when you have population isolates--the world norm until quite recently--reproductive patterns are limited to just that isolate space. As a result particular traits become modal for particular groups.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin:
quote:How do you know extant San are descendants of Stone Age Kalahari groups? Its just an assumption--one that isn't corroborated by their morphology. They're clearly adapted to a high lattitude, as that is what their bodyplan indirectly bespeaks (limb ratios, skin color), but what part of their morphology suggest specialization to the Kalahari desert?
On the basis that the oldest African haplogroups in Africa are found among the Khoisan. And we don't have any evidence that some prior group living in the area went extinct. The human race began East/Southern Africa and given how humans have migrated far and wide on this earth, it would have been a cake-walk for some to have just walked South into Southern Africa thousands of years ago.
The Kalahari was mostly desert as of 12,000 years ago. The Sahara was supported agriculture until about 6,000 years ago when populations began moving to settlements off the Nile.
As I said: apart from colour other human physiognomic traits arise from contingent mating patterns among members of isolate populations regardless of climatic and geographic locations.
In other words, explanations of hair forms based on climate considerations is just too speculative and 18th century for serious scientific consideration. To say that tightly curled was selected for--on the basis that it helped in cooling the scalp is just speculation. Same for straight hair and arid conditions. We just don't have the empirical causal evidence.
Read my question again. How do you know, that those proto-San populations were the ancestors of extant San populations? You do know that San populations are highly divergent, even amongst each other right?
The study also found surprising stratification among Khoe-San groups. For example, the researchers estimate that the San populations from northern Namibia and Angola separated from the Khoe and San populations living in South Africa as early as 25,000 -- 40,000 years ago. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120920141139.htm
Those proto-San you're referring to might very well be a distant twig of the proto-San branch that didn't leave descendants.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
First of all, what part of 'southern coastal route' do you not understand? The initial OOA migrants were confined to the southern areas along the coast NOT the entire valley up to the Hindu Kush.
Second, climatic patterns today are not the same as it was back then.
And third, many Indians have post southern coastal ancestry, dummy! That's why the genetic study I cited only looked to SOUTHERN Indians NOT northern Indians, dumbass!
Also, your dumbass doesn't know that northern Indian has a large desert i.e. the Thar desert which IS dry and has many aboriginal groups.
Stupid piece of sh!t you played yourself pointing out that North Indians have straighter hair than South Indians. That only proves my point that the colder the straighter.
Also, piece of sh!t, OOA migration routes are highly theoretical and generalized. As I explained to your dumb ass earlier there is nothing that says all people who would eventually wind up in Oceania had to always keep to the strictest southern route. Many probably setteled in certain areas for thosuands of years before moving again and some of these areas could easly have been North of the strictest southern coastal route. They didn't have maps and say to themselves "we need to get to Austrailia let's take the most efficient route" you thick dimwit
There is more than one reasonable theory as to the evolution of straight hair in Northern climates. The idea that straight hair is an adaptation to drayness doesn't even have an explanation, it's just something you made up. Obvioulsy wavy and curly types of hair are a middle points between tightly coiled kinky afro hair and bone straight hair.
That is why the location of people with "bone straight hair" extreme will give the clearest indication of the relation to climate assuming that they have been there for the thosuands of years it takes for it to occur. Look at your own bone straight hair and mediate on your boneheadedness
Chemical and Physical Behavior of Human Hair By Clarence R. Robbins 2012, pub: Springer Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The San should at least have bushy hair by now
But instead they have peppercorn hair that is even less straight than the afro hair of most Africans.
And then do a comparative time frame for peopleing of North Africa and post wet period in an attempt that straight hair is an adaptation to dry climate. and don't forget the reason why it would change in such climate
fancy acrobatics and dance moves will be needed
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Their samples clearly sort in manner that is expected if air humidity is the selective pressure (e.g., it goes from cold-dry, cold-humid, temperate, and then you get tropical samples, i.e., hot-dry and hot-humid).
Their analysis is also problematic, because they didn't even include groups for which long term residence in hot-dry regions is proven (their hot-dry samples consists of Bushmen Bantu speakers and Australian Aboriginals). If they'd include are Arab, Mojave, African Horn, Thar and Indus Valley desert samples, just to name a few, the hot-dry region would be just as distant from the hot-humid samples.
Fail. [/QB]
Cold climate = greatest surface area of nasal mucosa. High surface area to volume ratio allows for more air to come into contact with mucosa, facilitating more heat, hence thinner noses.
Dry heat environments are already hot. Adaptations there will not be as thin as cold.
Leptorrhine noses are not adaptations to dry heat, only dry cold.
Yes, you fail.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^Tell that to this correlation coefficient, dummy. You want to argue with something that has been statistically demonstrated?
Weiner (1954) reworked the data collected by Thomson and Buxton (1923) using wet bulb temperature and the vapor pressure of the air as additional climatic variables'that may be correlated with Nasal Index. In 146 groups studied Weiner (1954) found nasal index to be most highly correlated with the vapor pressure of the air (r = 0.82) and he postulated, that the functional basis underlying the Nasal Index - climate relationship is the humidification of the inspired air. --Leon, 1975
Are you sure you want to do that, mentally retarded jackass? LMAO:
quote:The main result of a correlation is called the correlation coefficient (or "r"). It ranges from -1.0 to +1.0. The closer r is to +1 or -1, the more closely the two variables are related.
If r is close to 0, it means there is no relationship between the variables. If r is positive, it means that as one variable gets larger the other gets larger. If r is negative it means that as one gets larger, the other gets smaller (often called an "inverse" correlation).
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
Can you read? Temperature alongside the level of humidity is linked to nasal index, "Thomson and Buxton (1923) found a positive correlation between mean annual temperature and nasal index (r = 0. 63)". So once you add them, the thinnest noses are in cold dry. From the 2011 paper:
"Maximum covariation between nasal cavity shape and climatic factors follows a cline from hot–humid to cold–dry climate, via hot–dry and cold–humid climate"
"Combining the temperature and vapor pressure effects in the PLS analysis (see Fig. 7), and comparing this with the separate shape changes in the regression analysis (Figs. 8 and 9), it appears that in cold–dry climates it is cold temperatures that most influence the nasal aperture and anterior narrowing of the cavity, whereas it is the low vapor pressure that has a stronger influence on the nasopharynx. Both climatic factors cause a superior shift of the ethmoid foramen, which makes an extra high upper nasal cavity in cold–dry climates"
Order of thin:
Cold dry Cold humid Hot dry Hot humid
Hot dry nasal adaptations are not as thin as cold dry or even cold humid.
Leptorrhine noses are not African adaptations, nor are high nasal bridges.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Thomson and Buxton (1923) found a positive correlation between mean annual temperature and nasal index (r = 0. 63)
This correlation only exists because there is a relation between humidity and temperature. In the moderate to cold temperature spectrum, the coldest regions are always the driest, but the hottest regions aren't necessarily the driest (hence, explaining the lower coefficient Thomson and Buxton (1923) obtained by sorting on temperature). So, of course, if you're going to sort all populations on temperature, you're going to get a positive correlation, but it will be weaker than the correlation obtained for the sorting on humidity. You obviously don't know the difference between causal correlation and a correlation that simply exists because two variables (temp. and nasal index) have some sort of non-casual relationship that cause them to co-vary somewhat. Hence, why your dumbass thinks you can trump the humidity-nasal index correlation by showing up with another variable (temperature) that has a weaker correlation with nasal index. LMAO.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
^ If that were true cold humid would be high NI. It isn't.
The 2011 paper also argues temperature affects nasal size more than vapor pressure level:
"[T]he main difference in shape is related to temperature (see Fig. 5). This contradicts the notion that humidity should play a more important role in nasal climate adaptation, as humidification is a more important factor for air-conditioning than temperature adjustment (Negus, 1958)."
Hence order of thin:
Cold dry Cold humid Hot dry Hot humid
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:If that were true cold humid would be high NI. It isn't.
No, if it the selective pressure would have been temperature, then there wouldn't be a difference between hot-dry and hot-humid climates. This is contradicted by your own paper (see fig 5). Just throw yourself away, your own sources debunk you, useless wanker.
quote:The 2011 paper also argues temperature affects nasal size more than vapor pressure level:
You're merely repeating yourself. I've already addressed this. Their hot-dry climate populations have nasal indices that aren't adapted to hot-dry climates. Their results are biased. For cold climates they use Europeans who have been adapting to that climate for longer than 40kya. For hot-dry climates they use Bantu speakers, Australians and Khoisan. They haven't demonstrated that those populations are adapted to hot-dry climates. At least for Bantu and khoisan speakers we can be 100% sure that they aren't. The paper is skewed, and the fact that you don't care and keep citing it shows that you're a fraud. Also, Bantu speakers generally don't even live in arid climates. The (conclusions reached by the) paper are a fail, just like you are.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the frustrated lyinass twit: Stupid piece of sh!t you played yourself pointing out that North Indians have straighter hair than South Indians. That only proves my point that the colder the straighter.
LOL No you're point is NOT proven! Because the indigenous people of the tropics with loose hair do NOT have straight hair but wavy hair. Cold may have something to do with hair that is very straight, but NOT all loose hair in general as shown with folks in the tropics. Therefore your example is a non-sequitor.
quote:Also, piece of sh!t, OOA migration routes are highly theoretical and generalized. As I explained to your dumb ass earlier there is nothing that says all people who would eventually wind up in Oceania had to always keep to the strictest southern route. Many probably settled in certain areas for thousands of years before moving again and some of these areas could easily have been North of the strictest southern coastal route. They didn't have maps and say to themselves "we need to get to Australia let's take the most efficient route" you thick dimwit.
LMAO When your dumbass first speculated about OOAs evolving loose hair in the cold environment of northern Iran/Afghanistan, I cited actual evidence both genetically and geologically why that is not so! Genetically there are no lineages from that area that match with the first OOA only in southern India, and geologically such northern areas at that time was impenetrable desert. So now your comeback is that it is highly theoretical?! Hahahaha! You are pathetic.
quote:There is more than one reasonable theory as to the evolution of straight hair in Northern climates. The idea that straight hair is an adaptation to dryness doesn't even have an explanation, it's just something you made up. Obviously wavy and curly types of hair are a middle points between tightly coiled kinky afro hair and bone straight hair.
Again, the hair that I am referring to is WAVY hair. That is hair straighter than curly but not as straight as typical Asian hair.
quote:That is why the location of people with "bone straight hair" extreme will give the clearest indication of the relation to climate assuming that they have been there for the thousands of years it takes for it to occur. Look at your own bone straight hair and mediate on your boneheadedness
So what about those folks who don't live in cold environments but in the tropics and have wavy hair like some Africans and aboriginal south Indians and Southeast Asians? What do northern Asians with 'bone straight' hair have to do with the hair forms of older populations to the hotter south?
As you can see the Indian man's hair grows in waves and not jet straight like typical east Asians.
quote: Chemical and Physical Behavior of Human Hair By Clarence R. Robbins 2012, pub: Springer
And again, where in your source does it address the type of hair that we are discussing in this forum? Your source talks about thick straight hair of typical (East) Asians and the less eliptical wavy hair of Europeans, but where is the wavy hair of tropical peoples including those in Africa?? Again, for the 3rd time, why not cite a source on what we are actually talking about, stupid twit! Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: 1) Male pattern baldness is passed on genetically. It is not a disorder. Just as the ancestors of humans lost their tails millions of years ago on account of its non-adaptability so too the genes for male pattern baldness would have disappeared by now because baldness affords no advantage in terms of scalp protection according to the theories being mounted on the matter.
Male pattern baldness IS a genetic disorder. As I stated, the condition is the result of the inefficient metabolism of testosterone. The disorder is obviously genetic because some males are more predisposed than others, and this predisposition varies from population to population as well.
There are many articles on the issue of male balding. Here's one for example:
If you yourself are suffering from this condition, then I'm sorry. There are many genetic disorders that are non-adaptive or even maladaptive. Albinism for example still occurs in Africa even though such a condition is fatal in the tropical sun! Again, what does male pattern balding have to do with the topic in discussion??
quote:The arguments proposed are that hair form are causally linked to environmental and climatic conditions. I argue against that. The simple reason is that science has not been able to establish direct empirical links to these causalities.
The Kalahari and Namib deserts were on the path towards desertification some 1.2 million years ago. By 200,000 years ago the land was already parched and supported specific desert flora and fauna. The point is that the San have been living in desert and desert-like conditions ever since they set foot in Southern Africa. And that is more than 27,000 years ago based on their Cave art.
Again, the point is that we do not have scientific proof that humid tropical climates produce tightly curled hair and that dry desertic conditions produce straight hair. Claims in this direction are purely speculative.
This reminds of the Lyn-Rushton hypothesis that colder climates select for higher intelligence that warm/hot climates based purely on repported IQ scores for African, Europeans, and Asians.
My first point is simply saying that when you have population isolates--the world norm until quite recently--reproductive patterns are limited to just that isolate space. As a result particular traits become modal for particular groups.
I believe Swenet already gave you an answer to the alleged ancestry of the San and their habitation in southern Africa. I also suggest you look at the whole area of southern Africa altogether.
PLEISTOCENE CLIMATES IN EASTERN AND SOUTHERN AFRICA RICHARD FOSTER FLINT Abstract: Pleistocene climates in the southern half of Africa are indicated by evidence of lakes in regions now dry, ancient soils for whose development the climate is now too dry or too wet, inactive wind-blown sand now covered by vegetation, and signs of former glaciation. Such features indicate climates different from those now prevailing. In addition, anomalies in the distribution of living organisms seem to support the assumption of climatic change.
Most of the evidence indicates change in annual amount or seasonal distribution of rainfall, but some suggests former temperatures lower, possibly by as much as 5°C., than those of today. Few of the features discussed are well fixed stratigraphically, but most of them are probably late Pleistocene.
The atmospheric-circulation pattern shows that annual amount and seasonal distribution of rainfall differ markedly in various regions in the subcontinent. The current literature contains a start toward a reconstruction of former patterns which are compatible with the geologic and biogeographic evidence, based on analogies with modern anomalies.
Although probable, the theory that pluvial climates in Africa were contemporaneous with glacial climates in Europe remains unsupported by geologic evidence, mainly because data are very few. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^ Idiotic, this fool is trying to make the case that wavy hair is some kind of unique thing Tightly coiled hair and very straight hair are obviously extremes with wavy and curly in-between. As I have demonstrated many times he can't deal with examples that are out of his narrow parameter. Now he's acting like only wavy hair is an adaptation to dryness in order to avoid straight hair which is obviously one stage further away from afro type hair than wavy and curly. Solving why people have straight hair solves why people have hair that is only somewhat straight i.e. wavy This kid is too dumb to deal with.
No explanation given why wavy or straight hair would be an adaptation to a dry climate. Why am I even arguing a case has not even been made?
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote:Leptorrhine noses are not adaptations to dry heat, only dry cold.
So why then do North-East Asians, having evolved--per the orthodox theory--in the dry cold of North East Asia have, as the colloquial talk puts it, "flat noses"?
In fact it was/is the practice for some Japanese to surgically insert artificial plastic nose bridges into their noses so that they get "that Western look". They do the same with their eyes too.
In fact, the generic nasal structure of the North East Asian approximates that commonly seen in Africa.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote:Male pattern baldness IS a genetic disorder. As I stated, the condition is the result of the inefficient metabolism of testosterone. The disorder is obviously genetic because some males are more predisposed than others, and this predisposition varies from population to population as well.
One might as well argue that since humans have lost most of their body hair in evolutionary time that therefore humans are suffering from some genetic disorder.
Some males are unable to grow beards or much facial hair. Is that a genetic disorder?
The reason I bring up "male pattern baldness" is because humans could just as easily have evolved in such a way that their heads and faces be completely hairless. In other words there is no empirically discernible advantage to having any hair on the cranium at all. Thus straight hair, wavy hair, curly hair, kinky hair bear no relationship to environment and climate. The San of South Africa could just as easily have developed North East Asian type hair. They already have the epicanthic eye fold.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
North East Asians evolved in "dry cold" so why the Asian angst about their "flat noses"?
Caucasoid radiated from drier cold hence they have thinner noses.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:If that were true cold humid would be high NI. It isn't.
No, if it the selective pressure would have been temperature, then there wouldn't be a difference between hot-dry and hot-humid climates. This is contradicted by your own paper (see fig 5). Just throw yourself away, your own sources debunk you, useless wanker.
quote:The 2011 paper also argues temperature affects nasal size more than vapor pressure level:
You're merely repeating yourself. I've already addressed this. Their hot-dry climate populations have nasal indices that aren't adapted to hot-dry climates. Their results are biased. For cold climates they use Europeans who have been adapting to that climate for longer than 40kya. For hot-dry climates they use Bantu speakers, Australians and Khoisan. They haven't demonstrated that those populations are adapted to hot-dry climates. At least for Bantu and khoisan speakers we can be 100% sure that they aren't. The paper is skewed, and the fact that you don't care and keep citing it shows that you're a fraud. Also, Bantu speakers generally don't even live in arid climates. The (conclusions reached by the) paper are a fail, just like you are.
All those sources debunk you, not me. Its apparent you don't even have access to them.
Thomson and Buxton (1923) and Davies (1932) showed thinnest noses appear in dry cold.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote:Caucasoid radiated from drier cold hence they have thinner noses.
.
And what's all this prevaricating BS about? You don't have an answer so I regaled with some spam. Thanks for the dinner. LOL.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:If that were true cold humid would be high NI. It isn't.
No, if it the selective pressure would have been temperature, then there wouldn't be a difference between hot-dry and hot-humid climates. This is contradicted by your own paper (see fig 5). Just throw yourself away, your own sources debunk you, useless wanker.
quote:The 2011 paper also argues temperature affects nasal size more than vapor pressure level:
You're merely repeating yourself. I've already addressed this. Their hot-dry climate populations have nasal indices that aren't adapted to hot-dry climates. Their results are biased. For cold climates they use Europeans who have been adapting to that climate for longer than 40kya. For hot-dry climates they use Bantu speakers, Australians and Khoisan. They haven't demonstrated that those populations are adapted to hot-dry climates. At least for Bantu and khoisan speakers we can be 100% sure that they aren't. The paper is skewed, and the fact that you don't care and keep citing it shows that you're a fraud. Also, Bantu speakers generally don't even live in arid climates. The (conclusions reached by the) paper are a fail, just like you are.
All those sources debunk you, not me. Its apparent you don't even have access to them.
Thomson and Buxton (1923) and Davies (1932) showed thinnest noses appear in dry cold.
You're shifting the goal post **AGAIN**. I never said that the narrowest noses occur in tropical arid regions, although I wouldn't be surprised if many in those regions are more leptorrhine than many Europeans. Like I said, you're a total phuckup. Africans in hot-dry regions can and do show nasal indices in Mesorrhine and Leptorrhine range (which you're admitting right now). Another hard pill for your dumbass to swallow are Hausa in Northern Nigeria. Not so many Caucasoids there to invoke, are there? LMAO.
quote:Table 1 indicates the means and the standard deviations for the two sexes together with the P- values. The mean nasal index for the Hausa males is 70.7 ± 11.3 which is higher than found in the females which was 67.2 ± 8.3 and the P-value is < 0.05. This indicates statistically significant difference between the sexes. Table 2 indicates also the means, the standard deviations as well as the standard error for the two sexes.
--Anas, 2010
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:If that were true cold humid would be high NI. It isn't.
No, if it the selective pressure would have been temperature, then there wouldn't be a difference between hot-dry and hot-humid climates. This is contradicted by your own paper (see fig 5). Just throw yourself away, your own sources debunk you, useless wanker.
quote:The 2011 paper also argues temperature affects nasal size more than vapor pressure level:
You're merely repeating yourself. I've already addressed this. Their hot-dry climate populations have nasal indices that aren't adapted to hot-dry climates. Their results are biased. For cold climates they use Europeans who have been adapting to that climate for longer than 40kya. For hot-dry climates they use Bantu speakers, Australians and Khoisan. They haven't demonstrated that those populations are adapted to hot-dry climates. At least for Bantu and khoisan speakers we can be 100% sure that they aren't. The paper is skewed, and the fact that you don't care and keep citing it shows that you're a fraud. Also, Bantu speakers generally don't even live in arid climates. The (conclusions reached by the) paper are a fail, just like you are.
All those sources debunk you, not me. Its apparent you don't even have access to them.
Thomson and Buxton (1923) and Davies (1932) showed thinnest noses appear in dry cold.
You're shifting the goal post **AGAIN**. I never said that the narrowest noses occur in tropical arid regions, although I wouldn't be surprised if many in those regions are more leptorrhine than many Europeans. Like I said, you're a total phuckup. Africans in hot-dry regions can and do show nasal indices in Mesorrhine and Leptorrhine range (which you're admitting right now). Another hard pill for your dumbass to swallow are Hausa in Northern Nigeria. Not so many Caucasoids there to invoke, are there? LMAO.
quote:Table 1 indicates the means and the standard deviations for the two sexes together with the P- values. The mean nasal index for the Hausa males is 70.7 ± 11.3 which is higher than found in the females which was 67.2 ± 8.3 and the P-value is < 0.05. This indicates statistically significant difference between the sexes. Table 2 indicates also the means, the standard deviations as well as the standard error for the two sexes.
--Anas, 2010
The Hausa are an ethnic group, not a racial type. You can generate any nasal index average based on limited sampling. Hiernaux, 1975, p. 164 lists the Hausa mean as 85. You still don't understand what typology is, and think it is populations. lol.
Your retard friend charlie still hasn't yet realised what typology is either:
"This study typifies the fallacy of using one trait to distinguish populations as well as proof that "racial" typology"
Yet typology has nothing to do with populations. It deals with individual types only.
You never get it, so what's the point...
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^YOU don't get the point. If nose form co-varies with humidity (which you've just admitted in your previous post) typology is dead. LMAO. You're a hypocritical nutjob. On the one had you claim to subscribe to typology, and on the other hand, you classify dolichocephalic crania as Mongoloid. You're literally retarded beyond fixing.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations Brenna M. Henn equal contributor,
Conclusion
Our genome-wide dense genotyping data from seven North African populations allow us to address outstanding questions regarding the origin and migration history of North Africa. We propose that present-day ancestry in North Africa is the result of at least three distinct episodes: ancient “back-to-Africa” gene flow prior to the Holocene, more recent gene flow from the Near East resulting in a longitudinal gradient, and limited but very recent migrations from sub-Saharan Africa.
^^^straight hair in North Africa
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^Dufus, those AMHs are postulated to have originated in the Levant. Are you saying that AMHs in the Delta would retain nappy hair, while AMHs in the Levant would sport wavy-straight hair? What are the evolutionary mechanisms that would allow for such a bizarre contrast?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^Dufus, those AMHs are postulated to have originated in the Levant. Are you saying that AMHs in the Delta would retain nappy hair, while AMHs in the Levant would sport wavy-straight hair? What are the evolutionary mechanisms that would allow for such a bizarre contrast?
You can place it all in Africa and ask the same question why the bizarre contrast in one region of Africa compared to another. In other words fail.
The Middle east is known for the transitional curly hair. There is also straight hair and wavy straight hair. I notice who the term "straight" is being slickly attempted to be deleted. Wavy hair is a form of straight hair, the straight hair, Curly hair is more in the middle. Djehutie things that Indian man has wavy ahir. he doesn't. It's just not as limp as so called "bone straight" East Asian hair. Wavy hair is when the outgrowth strands have several S curves in them, waves. Straight hair in the Levant comes from people a littel bit highy, Turkey and Northern Iran region who came back down South
^^^^ Common sense:
the Sahara/Sahel is the largest arid region in the world. How come straight hair is much less common ther than Europe?Russia/East Asia ?
this is straight hair although not necessarily "bone straight"
^^^ both are compatible with cold environments. If grown long it can keep the neck and shoulders warm. It also processes vitamin D, something that has been noted in animal fur and bird feathers. And is not a liability in hot dray environments. people who have these types of hair who went in South Asia were first in relatively more Northern regions
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: You can place it all in Africa and ask the same question why the bizarre contrast in one region of Africa compared to another. In other words fail.
You cannot demonstrate that the extant kinky haired populations that live in the Northern or Southern third of the continent have lived there as long as the ancestors of the Egypto-Nubians have lived at that lattitude (From Nazlet Khater, all the way to Wadi Kubbaniya and Wadi Halfa). This Upper Palaeolithic presence is also indicated by various haplogroups (in particular, mtDNA L3k which expanded into that region 30-40kya). And that's not even counting the pre-L3 lineages that didn't survive in modern Northern Africans (e.g., Skhull and Qafzeh). Therefore, it is YOUR argument that fails.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^^ you cannot account that such peoples had wavy straight hair 10,000 years ago
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^^ you cannot account that such peoples had wavy straight hair 10,000 years ago
They did have wavy straight hair 10.000 years ago. Or are you going to tell me that proto-Badarian hair form waited until 6.400bp to suddenly become predominantly wavy-straight?
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^YOU don't get the point. If nose form co-varies with humidity (which you've just admitted in your previous post) typology is dead. LMAO. You're a hypocritical nutjob. On the one had you claim to subscribe to typology, and on the other hand, you classify dolichocephalic crania as Mongoloid. You're literally retarded beyond fixing.
Palaeo-Mongoloid and Palaeo-Caucasoid skulls are dolichocephalic. Where do you think the types came from? They magically appeared? All modern types derived from parental types.
All early Homo sapiens were long skulled. Brachycephalism is very recent. Weidenreich even wrote a whole paper on this, "The Brachycephalization of Recent Mankind".
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^^ you cannot account that such peoples had wavy straight hair 10,000 years ago
They did have wavy straight hair 10.000 years ago. Or are you going to tell me that proto-Badarian hair form waited until 6.400bp to suddenly become predominantly wavy-straight?
it's called admixture, look at the coastal nations, trade routes
then look at the same latitude, Nigeria etc
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
Note how the Afroloons are not even consistent:
1. You have Dejhuti claiming "loose wavy" but not true straight hair is native to Africa.
2. You have Troll Patrol claiming "curly" or "loose curly" but not either straight or "European wavy type" hair as native to Africa.
3. Now you have Swenet, claiming true "straight" hair is native.
4. Zaharan who claims all textures as native.
- Just make crap up as you go along. That's what the internet is thesedays.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:it's called admixture, look at the coastal nations, trade routes
You make no sense whatsoever. Nigeria is at the same lattitude as Egypt? Admixture would require damn near population replacement for the Badarians, Naqadans and certain A-group samples. Badarian craniometric samples are the most homogenous of Egypt, none group into the mixed E-series. They also have a nasal index of >54, so that's not going to work either. Besides, the same hair type is found all over the Middle Nile. Good luck explaining that, since Meroites, Badarians, Naqadans and Kermans aren't exactly recent off-shoots from one another, yet they all have hair forms that aren't stereotypically kinky.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Note how the Afroloons are not even consistent:
1. You have Dejhuti claiming "loose wavy" but not true straight hair is native to Africa.
2. You have Troll Patrol claiming "curly" or "loose curly" but not either straight or "European wavy type" hair as native to Africa.
3. Now you have Swenet, claiming true "straight" hair is native.
4. Zaharan who claims all textures as native.
- Just make crap up as you go along. That's what the internet is thesedays. [/qb]
And that's coming from someone whose sources all contradict eachother, from Gill, to Bill, to Coon, to Howell (howell said UP European cranio DON'T cluster with Europeans). You even contradict yourself, re: dolichocranic cranio can be typologically Mongoloid, etc. There is nothing wrong with diversity in views, as long as those views are scientifically supported (which, non of yours are). By admitting that narrow phenotypes are adapted to arid climates in general, you've undermined your own retarded typology related beliefs, and now you're running as usual:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^YOU don't get the point. If nose form co-varies with humidity (which you've just admitted in your previous post) typology is dead. LMAO. You're a hypocritical nutjob. On the one had you claim to subscribe to typology, and on the other hand, you classify dolichocephalic crania as Mongoloid. You're literally retarded beyond fixing.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
Pre-Dynastic Egypt:
Wiercinski A. (1961). "The racial analysis of predynastic populations in Egypt". [In:] Atti del I° Congresso di Scienze. Antropolog. Etnologie di Folklore. Torino. pp. 431–440.
Wiercinski A. (1965). "The analysis of racial structure of early dynastic populations in Egypt". Mater i Prace Antropol. 71. pp. 3–48.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^Still running away from the truth, I see?
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Note how the Afroloons are not even consistent:
1. You have Dejhuti claiming "loose wavy" but not true straight hair is native to Africa.
2. You have Troll Patrol claiming "curly" or "loose curly" but not either straight or "European wavy type" hair as native to Africa.
3. Now you have Swenet, claiming true "straight" hair is native.
4. Zaharan who claims all textures as native.
- Just make crap up as you go along. That's what the internet is thesedays. [/qb]
And that's coming from someone whose sources all contradict eachother, from Gill, to Bill, to Coon, to Howell (howell said UP European cranio DON'T cluster with Europeans). You even contradict yourself, re: dolichocranic cranio can be typologically Mongoloid, etc. There is nothing wrong with diversity in views, as long as those views are scientifically supported (which, non of yours are). By admitting that narrow phenotypes are adapted to arid climates in general, you've undermined your own retarded typology related beliefs, and now you're running as usual:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^YOU don't get the point. If nose form co-varies with humidity (which you've just admitted in your previous post) typology is dead. LMAO. You're a hypocritical nutjob. On the one had you claim to subscribe to typology, and on the other hand, you classify dolichocephalic crania as Mongoloid. You're literally retarded beyond fixing.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
I said Palaeo-Mongoloids skulls have dolichocephalism (which they do) as do Palaeo-Caucasoids. The skulls in question were the UP crania from China, not modern. Brachycephalism only appears in the fossil record very late.
Another example: Palaeo-Negroid skulls have large brow-ridges. Negroids don't.
Also, low NI's only could appear if the teeth were also small [narrow spacing of upper canines]. That's another reason which excludes Negroids from being leptorrhine. Negroids are macrodont, with large palates. Even Aethiopids don't have small teeth.
^You lying dumbass, you said initially said that the Zhoukoudian skulls were mongoloid (not that palaeo-Mongoloids are dolichocephalic) re: But that doesn't change the fact the vast majority are Mongoloid. So, how exactly does dolichocephaly fit into the picture of Mongoloid typology?
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Also, low NI's only could appear if the teeth were also small [narrow spacing of upper canines]. That's another reason which excludes Negroids from being leptorrhine. Negroids are macrodont, with large palates. Even Aethiopids don't have small teeth.
LMAO. You face saving, fraudulent slippery snake. What happened to:
hair form, bone traits, eyes, and lips tend to follow geographic boundaries coinciding often with climatic zones.
and:
The 2011 paper also argues temperature affects nasal size more than vapor pressure level:
You're just going to keep hopping and flip flopping from one objection to another, aren't you? Now that you realize Gill destroyed your dumbass (Gill obviously knows that that narrow phenotype producing climatic pressures aren't exclusive to high latitudes, but also include hot-dry regions), are you going to admit that typology is dead?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ I don't know why we even bother arguing with these idiots. *sigh*
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: They did have wavy straight hair 10.000 years ago. Or are you going to tell me that proto-Badarian hair form waited until 6.400bp to suddenly become predominantly wavy-straight?
it's called admixture, look at the coastal nations, trade routes
then look at the same latitude, Nigeria etc
LOL You keep insisting that wavy hair in Africans is the result of 'admixture', but how many times must we keep telling your dumbass that most Egyptians especially in the north have very curly to kinky hair and only those in the south especially in Nubia have wavy hair! What about Horn Africans? Most Horn Africans in the coast again have tightly curled to kinky hair while those in the south far away from the coasts have wavy hair. It's interesting because the frequency of wavy hair is highest around the dry desert areas. What about rural Saharans like the Tibbu who have NO Eurasian admixture but have wavy hair? What about the Sanhaja Berbers who have no admixture and are very black yet have wavy hair? What about peoples in Chad and as far south as Uganda who have wavy hair despite very black skin and "negroid" features.
Your whole premise is a FAIL. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,: You can place it all in Africa and ask the same question why the bizarre contrast in one region of Africa compared to another. In other words fail.
Uh...
1. Africans have the most genetic diversity
2. The African continent is a large continent with varying climates and ecosystems i.e. humid tropical forests to arid tropical deserts.
Duh, b|tch!
quote:The Middle east is known for the transitional curly hair. There is also straight hair and wavy straight hair. I notice who the term "straight" is being slickly attempted to be deleted. Wavy hair is a form of straight hair, the straight hair, Curly hair is more in the middle. Djehutie things that Indian man has wavy ahir. he doesn't. It's just not as limp as so called "bone straight" East Asian hair. Wavy hair is when the outgrowth strands have several S curves in them, waves. Straight hair in the Levant comes from people a littel bit highy, Turkey and Northern Iran region who came back down South
Yet the Middle East is also known for HETEROGENEOUS populations some indigenous, while many NOT and hailing from farther north. This is why you have so many light-skinned hairy bodied, Middle Easterners along side aboriginal black ones.
quote:
^^^^ Common sense:
the Sahara/Sahel is the largest arid region in the world. How come straight hair is much less common there than Europe?Russia/East Asia?
Who said it wasn't, twit? Most indigenous Saharans DO have straight (wavy hair) dumbass!
this is straight hair although not necessarily "bone straight"
^^^ both are compatible with cold environments. If grown long it can keep the neck and shoulders warm. It also processes vitamin D, something that has been noted in animal fur and bird feathers. And is not a liability in hot dray environments. people who have these types of hair who went in South Asia were first in relatively more Northern regions
Are you saying the Australian aborigines and Indians live in cold environments? LOL You are pathetic.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: One might as well argue that since humans have lost most of their body hair in evolutionary time that therefore humans are suffering from some genetic disorder.
This is a complete non-sequitor. The loss of body hair in a species in favor of perspiration to cool down as an adaptation is NOT the same as certain individuals loosing head hair due inefficient metabolism of their own hormones!
quote:Some males are unable to grow beards or much facial hair. Is that a genetic disorder?
No, because it has nothing to do with a malfunction in physiology the way male pattern baldness is! Again another non-sequitor.
quote:The reason I bring up "male pattern baldness" is because humans could just as easily have evolved in such a way that their heads and faces be completely hairless. In other words there is no empirically discernible advantage to having any hair on the cranium at all. Thus straight hair, wavy hair, curly hair, kinky hair bear no relationship to environment and climate. The San of South Africa could just as easily have developed North East Asian type hair. They already have the epicanthic eye fold.
LOL Apparently all the info we discussed just went over your (perhaps bald) head! Hair IS a necessity on the human head or else ALL humans including females would be bald. Male pattern baldness IS a disorder for the following reasons I told you. The different hair forms obviously is the result of some sort of adaptation. I suggest you read more on the matter. Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
The Zhoukoudian crania are UP, not modern. They are Palaeo-Mongoloid, just like Cro-Magnon crania are Palaeo-Caucasoid/Europid. They are Mongoloid in context of the time period. Its so sad that this actually has to be pointed out.
Palaeo types in "pure" form no longer exist, but they have derivatives:
Selection pressures now have completely slowed, at least in regards to phenotype -
quote: Professor Steve Jones, of University College London, says the forces driving evolution - such as natural selection and genetic mutation - no longer play an important role in our lives.
The people living one million years from now, should Man survive, will resemble modern-day humans.
Hence the old claims that typology is pseudo-science because it represents static types, is invalid.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: The Zhoukoudian crania are UP, not modern.
What do you mean they aren't modern. Of course they are modern? They're Anatomically Modern Humans (AMHs). LMAO, you're all over the place.
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: They are Palaeo-Mongoloid, just like Cro-Magnon crania are Palaeo-Caucasoid/Europid.
LMAO. Lying ass snake. You said the UP Zhoukoudian skulls are mongoloid, in order to falsely contrast them with other Asian UP skulls that are Australoid, according to your dumbass. This, despite the fact that Zhoukoudian skulls have affinities with European Upper Palaeolithic skulls and Oceanian populations (in particular Tolai and Australian Aboriginal samples). Literally everything that comes out of your mouth of sh!t. LMAO.
Here, the question of the affinities of Upper Cave 101 and 103, the two better-preserved crania, is examined from the perspective of the Late Pleistocene human fossil record using the methodology of 3-D geometric morphometrics. The degree of morphological variation between the two specimens is also evaluated within the context of recent population variability. Neurocranial and facial morphology are analyzed separately so as to maximize comparative samples. Results show a morphological resemblance of the Upper Cave material to Upper Paleolithic Europeans. It is proposed that the Upper Cave specimens retain important aspects of modern human ancestral morphology, and possibly share a recent common ancestral population with Upper Paleolithic Europeans, in accordance with the Single Origin model of modern human origins. --Harvati, 2009
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Hence the old claims that typology is pseudo-science because it represents static types, is invalid.
LMAO. All you do is run away from what I'm saying and talk out the side of your neck. Who is talking about static types? The point that you've been running away from:
Are you going to admit that typology is dead now that your dumbass has admitted that African populations can diverge from the Negroid typology by 1) becoming long term inhabitants of a region outside of tropical rainforests and 2) having a long history of eating processed foods?
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote: Apparently all the info we discussed just went over your (perhaps bald) head! Hair IS a necessity on the human head or else ALL humans including females would be bald. Male pattern baldness IS a disorder for the following reasons I told you. The different hair forms obviously is the result of some sort of adaptation. I suggest you read more on the matter. [Embarrassed]
You keep repeating the same nonsense with a puzzling acrimony. Weird.
It is a trivial point that I made concerning hair forms and climate. Some animals in tropical environments are more or less hairless--elephants, rhinos, etc. And all sea-dwelling mammals like porpoises, dolphins, walruses, etc. are completely hairless having lost their hair over millennia.
So there's no reason why humans couldn't become hairless all over--including their heads. Again, my point is that hair form has nothing to do with cranium-protection from the elements as is proven by the fact that male-pattern baldness does not reduce longevity of males in any geographical region.
You inane post is tantamount to saying that old-age is a disorder or that weakening eyesight with age is a disorder.
And by the way those who know about the issue define male patten baldness as a "condition" not a "disorder". Do you understand the difference? w.patient.co.uk/health/male-pattern-baldness
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote: Apparently all the info we discussed just went over your (perhaps bald) head! Hair IS a necessity on the human head or else ALL humans including females would be bald. Male pattern baldness IS a disorder for the following reasons I told you. The different hair forms obviously is the result of some sort of adaptation. I suggest you read more on the matter. [Embarrassed]
You keep repeating the same nonsense with a puzzling acrimony. Weird.
It is a trivial point that I made concerning hair forms and climate. Some animals in tropical environments are more or less hairless--elephants, rhinos, etc. And all sea-dwelling mammals like porpoises, dolphins, walruses, etc. are completely hairless having lost their hair over millennia.
So there's no reason why humans couldn't become hairless all over--including their heads. Again, my point is that hair form has nothing to do with cranium-protection from the elements as is proven by the fact that male-pattern baldness does not reduce longevity of males in any geographical region.
You inane post is tantamount to saying that old-age is a disorder or that weakening eyesight with age is a disorder.
And by the way those who know about the issue define male patten baldness as a "condition" not a "disorder". Do you understand the difference? w.patient.co.uk/health/male-pattern-baldness
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Note how the Afroloons are not even consistent:
1. You have Dejhuti claiming "loose wavy" but not true straight hair is native to Africa.
2. You have Troll Patrol claiming "curly" or "loose curly" but not either straight or "European wavy type" hair as native to Africa.
3. Now you have Swenet, claiming true "straight" hair is native.
4. Zaharan who claims all textures as native.
- Just make crap up as you go along. That's what the internet is thesedays.
^^Right, and your dumb ass is the soul of "consistency".. Let's look at your previous idiocy...
THE FAHEEMdUMBERS/ANGLO -IDIOT EXPOSED PART 20: He tries ot make out that only rainforest areas define the tropics and says: ----------------------------------------------------------------- quote
The climatic tropical zone is limited to mostly western and central sub-sahara africa. Posted by FAHEEMdUMBERS/ANGLO _Pyramidologist osted 17 November, 2012 04:53 PM ____________________________________
When in fact any credible geography book denotes the tropics within the zone marked out by the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn, a denotation itself based on climate.
THE FAHEEMdUMBERS/ANGLO -IDIOT EXPOSED- PART 19: He says there is no OOA but the very "supporting reference" he proffers directy contradicts his claim. ------------------------- [b]Posted by FAHEEMdUMBERS/ANGLO _Pyramidologist (Member # 18853) on 07 May, 2012 08:45 AM:
OOA never happened.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiregional_origin_of_modern_humans ----------------------------- The idiot gives a Wikipedia "reference" to back up his claim but the very same "supporting reference" he gives states that multi-regionalists acknowledge that hominid species came from Africa in the first place. Their argument is for continuity and distinct development in separate locations AFTER the initial OOA exit putting hominins in different places. This approach STILL recognizes and acknowledges hominin OOA.
Quote from FAHEEMdUMBERS/ANGLO -Idiot's "supporting" reference: This species arose in Africa two million years ago as H. erectus and then spread out over the world, developing adaptations to regional conditions. Some populations became isolated for periods of time, developing in different directions, but through continuous interbreeding, replacement, genetic drift and selection, adaptations that were an advantage anywhere on earth would spread, keeping the development of the species in the same overall direction while maintaining adaptations to regional factors. By these mechanisms, surviving local varieties of the species evolved into modern humans, retaining some regional adaptations but with many features common to all regions.[10]
^^Note they say that their founding population Homo Erectus came from Africa. In short, the FAHEEMdUMBERS/ANGLO -idiot's own "supporting" reference contradicts his claim. What a pathetic fool.
THE FAHEEMdUMBERS/ANGLO - IDIOT EXPOSED - PART 18. The faker says Negroids are defined as having Caucasoid admixture. But when he sees bla-ck models with admixture he suddenly claims they aint black at all. Originally posted by FAHEEMdUMBERS/ANGLO _Pyramidologist: posted 12 June, 2012 05:34 PM http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008168 Topic: Carleton Coon: Negoids are hybrids of Pygmies and Caucasians [QB] Yes. A fact well known today.
''The Negroid type is not homogeneous.'' - Cavalli-Sforza et al 1994.
Hiernaux (1975) distinguishes the Pygmies to Negroids on the grounds the latter are a product of the former (a recent mutation) but that there was probable geneflow with Caucasoids as Coon (1967, 1982) maintains.
Also note that on page 123 of 'Living Races of Man', Coon also states that ''To this combination may have been added remnant Capoid genes''. So Negroids are basically a recent mutation from the Pygmies, but with Caucasoid/Capoid admixture.
^^Bitch please. Your own words contradict your punk ass. Up above you say that "NEgroids" are a recent mutation with Caucasoid/Capoid admixture. Look bich, look. You say blacks are defined as having that admixture, and quote your favorite racist, Carleton Coon to that effect. But when your hypocrisy is exposed, you all of a sudden deny that the black models posted are "really" black. IN one thread "admixed" Negroes like the black models are black, but when your idiocy is exposed, they suddenly ain't black. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE FAHEEMdUMBERS/ANGLO -IDIOT EXPOSED PART 17: - He says there is no sexual diomorphism in Africans or skeletal differences between men and women, when the very anthropologists he quotes say the opposite.
---------]Originally posted by FAHEEMdUMBERS/ANGLO - Buffoon: FAHEEMdUMBERS/ANGLO _Pyramidologist member # 18853 posted 03 June, 2012 05:47 PM
FAHEEMdUMBERS/ANGLO -Buffoon 17a- "Frost and other anthropologists have noted that sexual dimorphism in Negroids is completely lacking. Check Frost's online blog."
FAHEEMdUMBERS/ANGLO -Buffoon 17b- "Black females are not lighter or different to black males in craniofacial terms."
^^Stupid muthafucka. The very Frost quote you paste says this:
Men and women differ in complexion because of differing amounts of melanin and cutaneous blood flow; in short, women are fairer, men browner and ruddier (Edwards & Duntley, 1939; Frost, 1988; Frost, 2005; Hulse, 1967; Jablonski & Chaplin, 2000). The size of this sex difference is still debated, largely because most studies are poorly controlled for age (girls lighten only after puberty and immediately before are actually darker than boys).." FROM: Frost Peter, 2006. European hair and eye color, evidence of sexual selection? Evolution and Human Behavior 27 (2006) 85–103u
------- Can't you read imbecile? ALL females differ from males and are lighter. ALL human humans have sexual dimorphism to one degree or another. SO how can blacks "completely lack" said dimorphism according to you, when your own boy Peter Frost says all human have it?
------- ANd in studies of crania men and women do show differences, and these differences can be detected with a battery of modern measurements, as already shown in previous threads where your idiocy was destroyed- example (zakrewski2004-Intra-population and temporal variation in ancient Egyptian crania)
your own peter frost debunks you: ---------------------------------------
"If this common selective force were sexual selection, it could have lightened European skin color by acting on an existing sexual dimorphism. Men and women differ in complexion because of differing amounts of melanin and cutaneous blood flow; in short, women are fairer, men browner and ruddier (Edwards & Duntley, 1939; Frost, 1988; Frost, 2005; Hulse, 1967; Jablonski & Chaplin, 2000). The size of this sex difference is still debated, largely because most studies are poorly controlled for age (girls lighten only after puberty and immediately before are actually darker than boys). Investigators also try to exclude tanning by measuring under the arm, where there is less subcutaneous fat and probably less dimorphism in skin color, given that the lightness of a woman’s skin correlates with the thickness of her subcutaneous fat (Mazess, 1967). In any event, sexual selection may have targeted this sex difference, as suggested by a cross-cultural male preference for lighter complexioned women and, conversely, by some evidence of a female preference for darker complexioned men (Aoki, 2002; Feinman Feinman & Gill, 1978; Frost, 1988; Frost, 1994b; Frost, 2005; Van den Berghe & Frost, 1986)."
FROM: Frost Peter, 2006. European hair and eye color, evidence of sexual selection? Evolution and Human Behavior 27 (2006) 85–103
and:
"A different perspective on sexual dimorphism in skin pigmentation comes from the recognition that human females require significantly higher amounts of calcium during pregnancy and lactation and, thus, must have lighter skin than males in the same environment in order to maximize their cutaneous vitamin D3 production (Jablonski and Chaplin 2000)... Thus strong clinical evidence continues to support the hypothesis that lighter skin pigmentation in females evolved primarily as a means to enhance the the potential for cutaneous vitamin D production and maintain healthy long-term calcium status and skeletal health." -- Human Evolutionary Biology. 2010. By Michael P. Muehlenbein Damm you are one of the most pathetic idiots in existence.
Tell us -- were you born such a retarded shithead, or were you originally a slug who managed to rise to such prominence?
quote:Originally posted by FAHEEMdUMBERS/ANGLO _Pyramidologist: [QB] E1b1b is not Negroid.
Read it an weep -
''Sub-Saharan Africans belong to subclades of E other than E1b1b, while most non-Africans who belong to haplogroup E belong to its E1b1b subclade.” - Fulvio Cruciani et al, Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E1b1b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa, Am. J. Hum. Genet, p. 74)
The foul faker doctored the quote not knowing the article has been much discussed at ES. Testifying even more to his incompetence, Cruciani actually does show E3b or E1b1b occuring in numerous places within "sub-Saharan" Africa. The three main subclades of haplogroup E3b (E-M78, E-M81, and E-M34) and the paragroup E-M35* are not homogeneously distributed on the African continent: E-M78 has been observed in both northern and eastern Africa, E-M81 is restricted t o northern Africa, E-M34 is common only in eastern Africa, and E-M35* is shared by eastern and southern Africans (Cruciani et al. 2002)" --Cruciani
And there is no "page 74" in the Cruciani article. THE FAKER AND BUFFOON IS AGAIN BUSTED IN A LIE!
THE FAKER'S BOGUS CLAIM PART- 15 - QUOTE: [QUOTE]Originally posted by cassiterides: posted 14 January, 2012 11:41 AM If you are a white heterosexual male in Britain you have virtually zero chance of getting a job. All the jobs go to blacks or other immigrants.
^^LOL - Idiotic nonsense. As of 2001, 92.1% of the UK population identified themselves as White, leaving 7.9%[270] of the UK population identifying themselves as mixed race or of an ethnic minority. The population of the United Kingdom in the 2001 census was 58,789,194, UK Office for National Statistics- 2001.
That leaves approx 54 million white people. About 33% of that population were adult men. Let's take away 8% or so for minorities. So you are saying then that 25% of the approx 54 million white people in the UK are all unemployed? Damn you are dumb, but you only expose the bankruptcy of your racism.
The Fake C-Ass -Hole exposed PART 14 - BOGUS "NORDIC BLONDS FLITTING AROUND EGYPT
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cassiterides: posted 29 December, 2011 06:05 AM
Hetepheres II was a blonde
^^Hapless dullard, you are exposed in another lie. Your own reference was checked. It yielded detailed citations which revealed a quite different story. Scholars say in the mainstream Cambridge Ancient History:
"We must give up the idea that she was of Libyan origin, an attractive theory which was based on blond hair of Hetepheres II, who was then thought to be her daughter. It is now evident that the yellow wig is part of a costume worn b other great ladies." --I. Edwards, C. Gadd, N. Hammond. 1971. The Cambridge Ancient History. 3ed Volume 1, Part 2, Early History of the Middle East
Yet another history says: "The walls of this interior room are decorated with hunting and fishing scenes, including a charming image of Meresankh and her mother, Hetepheres II picking lotus flowers from the river.. The pillars have images of Meresankh wearing a blond wig." --P. Lacovara. 2004. The pyramids and the SPhinx: tombs and temples of GIza
THE FAKER EXPOSED- PART 13- HIS BOGUS CLAIM OF "NORDIC" EGYPTIAN ROYALTY
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: posted 28 December, 2011 05:40 PM Early dynastic & old kingdom royalty was Nordic (blonde and fair skinned)
^^^Ha hahahahah you stupid mass of camel vomit! Up above you reference scholar Frank Yurco, but here is what Yurco said about the 12th Dynasty, debunking your claim of "Nordic" Egyptian royalty. You dumbass.... You are again debunked, with your own "supporting" references... lmao...
"the XIIth Dynasty (1991-1786 B.C.E.) originated from the Aswan region.4 As expected, strong Nubian features and dark coloring are seen in their sculpture and relief work. This dynasty ranks as among the greatest, whose fame far outlived its actual tenure on the throne... Because the Egyptian rulers of Nubian ancestry had become Egyptians culturally; as pharaohs, they exhibited typical Egyptian attitudes and adopted typical Egyptian policies."
- (F. J. Yurco, 'Were the ancient Egyptians black or white?', Biblical Archaeology Review (Vol 15, no. 5, 1989)
THE FAKER EXPOSED- PART 12 HE says Egyptologists like Frank Yurco says the Egyptians were "Caucasoid" --- "Virtually every egyptologist believes the egyptians were Caucasoid" --
BUt Yurco says nothing of the sort.. Here for example, is what he says about the 12the Dynasty rulers aho were Nubian descent: They seem really "Caucasoid"... yeah, right.. - quote-
"the XIIth Dynasty (1991-1786 B.C.E.) originated from the Aswan region.4 As expected, strong Nubian features and dark coloring are seen in their sculpture and relief work. This dynasty ranks as among the greatest, whose fame far outlived its actual tenure on the throne... Because the Egyptian rulers of Nubian ancestry had become Egyptians culturally; as pharaohs, they exhibited typical Egyptian attitudes and adopted typical Egyptian policies."
- (F. J. Yurco, 'Were the ancient Egyptians black or white?', Biblical Archaeology Review (Vol 15, no. 5, 1989) -
Another dodge is to twist an old chat/forum discussion statement by conservative Egyptologist Frank Yurco out of context. Yurco rejected those who "a priori" claimed the Egyptians were "black", that is, a dogmatic claim without presenting empirical evidence. He never rejected reasonable argument with data showing the Egyptians were an indigenous African population -QUOTE: .. basically a homogeneous African population had lived in the Nile Valley from ancient to modern times.. (Yurco 1996- An Egyptological Review, in Black Athena Revisited)
The Faker exposed- part 11
quote: Originally posted by cassiterides: ^You claim Vanessa Williams is a black woman when her heritage is white welsh and native american
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ^ Eurafrican is Caucasoid.
^^You are once again exposed. You said EurAfrican is Caucasoid, and cited Serti in support. But using your own citation any reader can see that Sergi considers EurAfricans to be an amalgamation or mixture of many types, directly contradicting your claim.
SErgi says: QUOTE: "This human species, with cranial and facial characters thus well determined, I call Eurafrican; and this because, having had its origin in Africa, where it is still represented by many peoples, it has been diffused from prehistoric times in Europe... The Eurafrican species thus falls into three races: the African, with red-brown and black pigmentation.. Thus the Mediterranean stock is a race or variety of the Eurafrican species." --G. Sergi
You have again failed and are once again exposed. ------------------------------------------------------------
THE FAKER EXPOSED PART 9- HE CLAIMS ALL THESE HIGGINS "DISTORTIONS" BUT WHEN ASKED TO NAME THE SPECIFIC WEBSITES OF THIS ALLEGED "AFROCENTRIC' HORROR, HE RUNS AWAY. WHY IS THAT FAKER?
In fact, Godfrey Higgins ALSO says this about "negroes"
quote: "I believe all the Blavk bambinos of Italy are negroes- not merely blacks; this admitted, it would prove they very early date of their entrance into Italy." pg 286 pg 434 "the ancient Eturians had the countenances of Negroes, the same as the images of Buddah in INdia." pg 166 pg 474- "They aere in fact, all one nation, with one religion, that of Buddah, and they were originally NEgroes" pg 59: "nor can it be reasonably doubted, that a race of Negroes formerly had power and pre-eminence in India" pg 59- AS TO ETHIOPIA: And it is probable that an Ethiopian, a negro, correctly speaking, may have been meant, not merely a black person; and it seems probable that the following may have ben the real fact, viz, that a race of NEgroes or Blacks, but probably of the former, came to India to the west."
cASSIRETEDES own source debunks him. Note the footnote by his own author- QUOTE: "may not have been Negroes, though Blacks, though it is probably they were so."
His own source says they may not have been Negroes then adds: THOUGH IT IS PROBABLY THEY WERE SO."
^The Faker once again, debunks himself. And he seems not to realize that Ethiopia is in "sub-Saharan" Africa.. lol.. pathetic incompetent..
And he never shows these massive number of websites "all over the internet". Like what? How many? If they are "all over" then he should at least be able to give direct links to 6 showing pages where the "Afrocentrics: are "distorting" Higgins work. LEt's say what the faker has besides hot air. Post DIRECT LINKS to 6 of the huge number of alleged "Afrocentric" websites where the Afrocentrics are "distorting" Higgins. SHow how they are distorting Higgins with specific quotes and specific context.
Watch the Faker duck and run when he is again called on a claim, or make up yet another lie to cover his exposure... -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE FAKER EXPOSED- part 8:
quote:
Originally posted by FAHEEMdUMBERS/ANGLO -Pyr/Cassiredes: "Fair hair and light eyes colours are only found among Caucasoids, esp of Europe."
But then, in your own thread, by your own hand, you present a picture of an African albino that has pale skin, light brown or hazel eyes and fair hair. You said it was impossible, but then debunk yourself with your own posted picture.. This is like the 8-9th time you keep tripping over yourself with lies, contradictions, and bogus claims.
RECAP The Faker exposed- part 7 Originally posted by FAHEEMdUMBERS/ANGLO -Pyr/Cassiredes: "Fair hair and light eyes colours are only found among Caucasoids, esp of Europe."
^^Your claim is is completely bogus. Native diversity or albinism causes some tropical Africans to have light eyes and light hair. You fail againn..
bbvv
================================================
THE FAKER EXPOSED: PART 6 1-- ^^Faker! In your initial posts you claimed that it was Cavalli-Sforza talking 'bout negroes "mutating" from Pygmies. Now in your "corrected" post, YOU STILL APPEAR A FAKE. You now remove Cavalli- Sforza's name on the "mutant" claim, admitting that you were lying all along! Bwa ha aha a hah a ha ahahaha aha ahah..
2-- Second point- Peter Frost is debunked by Cavalli-Sforza who says as to his so-called "mutation" theory: QUOTE:
"It remains difficult to pinpoint an ancient place of origin for the Negroid type which includes all West, Central and South Africans. Contrary to many earlier opinions, modern Pygmies and Khosians are not good candidates for a proto-African population."
--Cavalli Sforza et al, 1994. The history and geography of human genes. 194
Frost mentions Cavalli-Sforza in connection with sexual selection, and movement of some groups from Nigeria-Cameroon to other parts of Africa. He never says Cavalli Sforza talks bout any "negro mutation" and in fact any mutation claim is directly contradicted by Sforza. Sucka, you not only lied bout Cavalli-Sforza, you lied about your own white writer- Peter Frost, and misrepresented him.
THE FAKER EXPOSED: PART 6 FAHEEMdUMBERS/ANGLO -Pyr/CassiREDES says: ''There are then no Australoids with blonde hair past the age of about twenty''
^^LMAO! Totally fake! Credible up to date sources note that blondism is prevalent in early life BUT, contrary to your claim that: "There are then no Australoids with blonde hair past the age of about twenty", the shade of color varies. In maturity the hair usually turns a darker brown color, but sometimes remains blond. See: "Gene Expression: Blonde Australian Aboriginals". Gnxp.com. http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2005/08/blonde-australian-aboriginals.php.
^^Here is one of your Australians over 20 years old who does have blonde hair. YOu are caught out spinning bogus claims AGAIN!. Bwa ha aha a hah a ha ahahaha aha ahah.. -
THE FAKER EXPOSED: PART 5a [b]So where are these tropical african peoples with pale white or fair skin? blonde red hair?
^^You fail again. African populations can readily produce blond or reddish blond hair as noted by hair study author Hrdy 1978 himself, and he references Nubia as an example. Albinism is another source of red or blond hair in Africa, and albinism is much more prevalent in African populations than among Europeans. Even African Americans produce more albinos than white Americans. (The pigmentary system: physiology and pathophysiology- By James J. Nordlund 2006: 603) (E. Roach and V. Miller 2004. Neurocutaneous disorders.) QUOTE: "In general, the prevalence of albinism in Africa is much higher, in the range of 1 in 1 100 to 1 in 3900."
So Africa can and does routinely produce red and blond hair. All non-Africans are MORE LIMITED subsets of ORIGINAL African diversity. THe originals have more built-in diversity than the limited sub-set populations. This is straight science as noted by the quote from TIshkoff 2000.
Nor are Africans the only tropical peoples who can produce reddish hair or blond hair. Among Australian Aborigines, some tropical groups produce 100% of individuals with blond hair. Melanesians can also produce blond or reddish hair, and do so routinely.
White people have no monopoly at all on that hair color. They merely show more of it, but even among whites, red hair for example is minor- occurring in less than 5% of the overall European populations, mostly in northern Europe.
So the claim that there are no tropical Africans with such variation is once again, proved fake. You made the claim.
THE FAKER EXPOSED: PART 4 ime and time again, you stand debunked and exposed for falsifying claims and references. Let's recap:
Originally posted by CASSIFAKedes::
quote: The source is Cavalli-Sforza's book on the Pygmies entitled 'African pygmies' (Academic Press, 1986).
This work shows that Negroids mutated from an ancestral pygmy population around 9,000 BC in West Africa. So the 'true' Black African today is a recent mutation. Caucasoids and Mongoloids predate them. [Wink] Negroids only migrated into other parts of Africa during the Bantu expansion or slightly earlier. Prior to them, Caucasoids inhabited North Africa and Bushmen (Capoids) to the south who were displaced by the Caucasoids from the Mediterranean around 12,000 BC.
^^A bogus reference. Why should anyone take your word for it given past bogus references? Quote where Cavalli-Sforza says these so-called "negroids" "mutated" from Pygmies. The burden of proof is on you, since you made the claim.
While you scurry to cover your tracks with yet more bogus claims, Cavali Sforza, in his well known The History and Geography of Human Genes, 1994 Cavalli-Sforza summarizes his 1986 work on Pygmies and specifically debunks the "Pygmy as ancestor" theory held by other older writings. QUOTE:
"It remains difficult to pinpoint an ancient place of origin for the Negroid type which includes all West, Central and South Africans. Contrary to many earlier opinions, modern Pygmies and Khosians are not good candidates for a proto-African population."
--Cavalli Sforza et al, 1994. The history and geography of human genes. 194
SO much for your lying claims of "mutations" from "Pygymy" ancestors. In short, you lied about Cavalli-Sforza, creating a falsified claim and a bogus "supporting" reference to a claim that is nowhere supported in his work. You are once again exposed as yet another racist faker You are not fooling anyone.
------------------------
THE FAKER EXPOSED-PART 3- YOu then tried to cover up your lie with even more bogus nformation and STILL fail
You "modified" your Cavalli Sforza claim by including page numbers, and then changing some wording to "adaptive radiation" hoping to divert attention from your exposure.. lmao..
However pages 361-362 of Cavalli Sforza's 1986 book says absolutely nothing about any Negroes "mutating" from pygmies, nor any "adaptive radiation." It merely discusses Pygmy history and geography. You picked out a page at random, not knowing it can be verified via Google Books. You were asked to provide a direct quote but are still running. Now why is that?
""It remains difficult to pinpoint an ancient place of origin for the Negroid type which includes all West, Central and South Africans. Contrary to many earlier opinions, modern Pygmies and Khosians are not good candidates for a proto-African population."
--Cavalli Sforza et al, 1994. The history and geography of human genes. 194
--------------------------------------
THE FAKER EXPOSED- PART 2 And Your pathetic "modification" STILL turned out to be bogus. You then said:
"True" Black Africans appear as a recent adaptive radiation apparently branching off from an ancestral Pygmy population — a line of ancestry also indicated by osteological data (Coon 1962:651-656; Watson et al. 1996).
^^But in fact, Watson 1996 has nothing to do with osteological data and does not even mention it. It has to do with mtDNA.
----------------------------------------
THE FAKER EXPOSED- PART 1C YOU THEN PROFFERED ANOTHER FAKE CLAIM BELOW: He says:
quote: "Note that in the Old Testament the Danites are the only Hebrew people described as being maritime and associated with ships.."
^^Complete Nonsense. In the Old Testament, the tribe of Zebulun is mentioned as specifically associated with ships and maritime elements. QUOTE:
Genesis 49:13 "Zebulun will dwell at the shore of the seas; Yea, he will be at the shore of the ships, And his side toucheth upon Sidon. "
FAHEEMdUMBERS/ANGLO -Pyr/Cassi-Fakdes: MULTIPLE TIMES AT BAT, MULTIPLE EXPOSURES AS A FAKE...
--fake claim that no Australian Abo over 20 is blonde
-- fake claim that NO tropical Africans have any diversity in hair, skin or eye color
-- fake Cavalli-Sforza citation
-- 2nd fake Cavalli-Sforza reference
-- Faked Watson reference
-- Faked Biblical reference
-- FAke representation of Peter Frost's work
-- Fake claim that "studies" say "egyptians were dark are not like 'light-skinned Europeans". COnveniently, the alleged study is missing..
--Fake Higgins claims
--Fake claim that Guiseppe Sergi's EurAfrican race concept is negro-free
--Fake claim that Vanessa Williams has no black ancestry but is "white and Indian"
--Fake claim that Egyptologists like Yurco consider the Egyptians "Caucasoid"
--Fake claim of white Nordic Egyptian royalty
--Fake claim of "blond" Hetepheres
--Fake claim of white males in BRitain "unable to get jobs"
--fAKE Crucuiani "quote" with "citation"
--fake claim that blacks have no sexual diomorphism and no male-female cranial differences
--Fake CDC claim of AUgust 2006
--Hypocritical double standards- bashing African Americans as black when they can be demonized as criminals but when exposed for hypocritical double standards calling them non-black
--Bogus claim that OOA never happened backed by "supporting" references that say nothingof the sort and directly contradict him.
--Fake claim that the tropics is mostly rainforest area
^^Mr Consistency- Faheem Dumbers...
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: You keep repeating the same nonsense with a puzzling acrimony. Weird.
What I repeat is not nonsense but FACTS. There is nothing weird about it!
quote:It is a trivial point that I made concerning hair forms and climate. Some animals in tropical environments are more or less hairless--elephants, rhinos, etc. And all sea-dwelling mammals like porpoises, dolphins, walruses, etc. are completely hairless having lost their hair over millennia.
So there's no reason why humans couldn't become hairless all over--including their heads. Again, my point is that hair form has nothing to do with cranium-protection from the elements as is proven by the fact that male-pattern baldness does not reduce longevity of males in any geographical region.
You inane post is tantamount to saying that old-age is a disorder or that weakening eyesight with age is a disorder.
You keep confusing hairless state of some mammals including modern humans' relatively hairless bodies with the condition of male pattern baldness! What the hell is that? There is no comparison. One is evolution the other is a disorder. Old age is NOT a disorder because it affects ALL organisms! Male pattern baldness does not even affect most males let alone all males!
quote:And by the way those who know about the issue define male patten baldness as a "condition" not a "disorder". Do you understand the difference? w.patient.co.uk/health/male-pattern-baldness
condition-- a state of being or health.
disorder-- an abnormal condition or malfunction of an organism
Male pattern baldness is BOTH. Alopecia or the loss of ALL hair both head and body is both a condition as well as a disorder.
Again, male baldness results from testosterone not being fully metabolized which has toxic effects on certain cells including hair follicles. The vast majority of males do not have this problem whereas some do. There is no evolutionary advantage at all and the condition has NOTHING to do with the evolution of loss of body hair in modern humans! I don't know why you keep equating male pattern balding with all these other things. Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote: Originally posted by Djehuti: You keep confusing hairless state of some mammals including modern humans' relatively hairless bodies with the condition of male pattern baldness! What the hell is that? There is no comparison. One is evolution the other is a disorder. Old age is NOT a disorder because it affects ALL organisms! Male pattern baldness does not even affect most males let alone all males!
^LMAO. Stating the rather obvious is sometimes an unexpected, but necessary part of conversation.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: It's interesting because the frequency of wavy hair is highest around the dry desert areas. What about rural Saharans like the Tibbu who have NO Eurasian admixture but have wavy hair? What about the Sanhaja Berbers who have no admixture and are very black yet have wavy hair? What about peoples in Chad and as far south as Uganda who have wavy hair despite very black skin and "negroid" features.
Your whole premise is a FAIL. [/QB]
Toubou (Tibbu)
Toubou
Stop lying Sanhaja like The Fulani have West Eurasian and/or Yemeni admixture. Toubou genetics have not been well researched and as we can see kinky hair.
With a few exceptions the prevalence of straight hait largely corresponds to people with relatively lighter brown skin. You claim wavy hair is predominant for the Sahara yet most of the people that have that type of hair are lighter skinned and due to that you call them admixed. You really are full of crap.
Oh and if you think of post pictures form your small portfolio of people of unknown ancestry, no females or boys. There should be dozens of photos on the internet of Sanhaja and "Tibbu" for you to choose from
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Austrailan Aboriginees have 4-6% Denisova ancestry. They have the most prominent brow ridges in the world Denisova was found in Siberia There's a clue
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^^ LMAOH
First of all, the whole Denisovan ancestry in modern humans is pure speculation just as Neanderthal ancestry in modern humans is, including in of all populations East African Massai!! The problem is geneticists don't even know the genetic specificities of all human populations which is why you hear all these theories of hominid admixture in one population or another. Even Neanderthal admixture in African populations when there is no evidence of Neanderthals in Africa!
Second of all, as you pointed out, the Denisovans inhabited Siberia. B|tch, I already pointed out the areas and routes the ancestors of Australian aborigines took. NON of which included areas north of the subtropics let alone 'Siberia'!
Lastly, even IF 4-6% of Australian Aborigines have Denisovan ancestry what the f*ck does that have to do with the remaining 96-94% of the population that does not but STILL have wavy hair?!!
What is the point in even arguing with an idiot like yourself who is devoid of basic logic?? Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,: Toubou (Tibbu)
Toubou
As if two examples disprove that wavy hair exists among the Toubu. LOL
quote:Stop lying Sanhaja like The Fulani have West Eurasian and/or Yemeni admixture. Toubou genetics have not been well researched and as we can see kinky hair.
B|tch the only one lying here is YOU and Farthead! The Sanhaja are a large group of people. I'm referring to certain tribes in the Sahara who have NO Eurasian admixture at all! And the only Fulani who have Eurasian admixture are coastal types who have European admixture yet exhibit stereotypical broad nose and kinky hair! The Fulani nomads further inland who have wavy hair and narrow features have NIL Eurasian ancestry and those in Nigeria have 100% E1b1a lineages!! We told your dumbass this before when you cited a study on Guinea Coast Fulani!! You lying trick! LOL
By the way, here is a description of some Sanhaja by American sailor Robert Adams...
"The place which was called El Gazie, ( 2 ) was a low sandy beach, having no trees in sight, nor any verdure. There was no appearance of mountain or hill ; nor (excepting only the rock on which the ship was wrecked) any thing but sand as far as the eve could reach. The Moors [of Mauritania] were straight haired, but quite black; their dress consisted of little more than a rug or a skin round their waist, their upper parts and from their knees downwards, being wholly naked."--Robert Adams (1810)
Robert Adams was a very fair-skinned himself since his father is white and his mother "mulatta".
quote:With a few exceptions the prevalence of straight hair largely corresponds to people with relatively lighter brown skin. You claim wavy hair is predominant for the Sahara yet most of the people that have that type of hair are lighter skinned and due to that you call them admixed. You really are full of crap.
Again, YOU are full of crap because there is NO correlation between hair form and skin color, dishonest douche! There are MANY populations in Africa who have wavy hair yet are very dark even jet black in complexion, and the reverse is true-- there are MANY populations who have lighter skin yet have kinky hair! I already told your dumbass that most folks in the Egyptian Delta, Eritrean coast, and northern Ethiopia who are noted for their 'Eurasian' ancestry have kinky hair! In the meanwhile, the sedentary Fulani of the Guinea coasts and Gambia who have recent European ancestry have light skin yet still have kinky hair and broad features!! Again the implications are quite clear to anyone with a properly functioning brain!
quote:Oh and if you think of post pictures form your small portfolio of people of unknown ancestry, no females or boys. There should be dozens of photos on the internet of Sanhaja and "Tibbu" for you to choose from
LMAO B|tch where do you think I get the pictures for my portfolio from??!! I got them from the internet as well! So how exactly are MY pictures of random people of 'unknown' ancestry no good but YOUR pictures of the same are?!!
You are a pathetic, lying, hypocritical, b|tch who is angry that my claims hold fast to evidence while YOUR mixed-up claims do not!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Lastly, even IF 4-6% of Australian Aborigines have Denisovan ancestry what the f*ck does that have to do with the remaining 96-94% of the population that does not but STILL have wavy hair?!!
What is the point in even arguing with an idiot like yourself who is devoid of basic logic?? [/QB]
Damn you are fvcking stupid.
On average of all Austrailain Aboriginees have 4-6% Denisiaova ancestry
not that 4-6% of them have it, dummy
why do you think they have those thick browridges?
You have to go back 200 years to the duboius Robert Adams narrative? ^^ this guy is from Yemen. If Robert Adams narritive is true what he calls Moors are people that very likley could have been like this guy perhaps mixed with indigenous Africa.
You are trying to claim that ther predominant hair type of dark skinned people in Mali is wavy straight hair? GTFOH
That is laughable. The dark skinned malinans have afro kinky hair. The people like Tuareg also have some of these dark skinned kinky haired people but they also have many who are lighter skinned brown than other Malians. The ones that have wavy straight hair are thses lighter skinned Beydan, lighter brown called "white moors".
You do not have the anthropology documenatation to support your alternative claims
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The point that you've been running away from:
Are you going to admit that typology is dead now that your dumbass has admitted that African populations can diverge from the Negroid typology by 1) becoming long term inhabitants of a region outside of tropical rainforests and 2) having a long history of eating processed foods? [/QB]
I don't know what you're talking about. Nothing now diverges. The types are not populations.
Can you change your phenotype naturally during your lifetime? How the hell can someone change their typology?
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Fake claim that the tropics is mostly rainforest area
Tropical is green only:
Only you and "nilevalleyblogspot" claim tropical = the whole of Africa. Was this a gaffe? I've shown that to people, and they are laughing. Perhaps your goal is to just parody afrocentrism? Fine by me.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
According to your own words, typology is dead. This automatically nullifies all your posts. That's all I wanted to hear from your selectively replying, no evidence having dumbass, I'm done talking to you.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
^ You don't even know what typology is retard.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ And YOU don't even know the difference between an ass and a p*ssy!! LOL
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass twit: Damn you are fvcking stupid.
On average of all Austrailain Aboriginees have 4-6% Denisiaova ancestry
not that 4-6% of them have it, dummy
Please cite evidence that ALL Australian Aboriginal individuals carry 4-6% Denisovan genomic material.
By the way, this same percentage is said to exist in Melanesians, and other aboriginal Pacific Islanders.
First Aboriginal genome sequenced Like other populations outside Africa, the Australian Aboriginal man owes small chunks of his genome to Neanderthals4. More surprisingly, though, his ancestors also interbred with another archaic human population known as the Denisovans. This group was identified from 30,000–50,000-year-old DNA recovered from a finger bone found in a Siberian cave5. Until now, Papua New Guineans were the only modern human population whose ancestors were known to have interbred with Denisovans.
Yet Papua New Guineans typically have KINKY not wavy hair, dumbass!! LOL
quote:why do you think they have those thick browridges?
LMAOH B|tch, don't you know thick browridges were common to ALL early modern humans, including those in Africa!!
quote:You have to go back 200 years to the dubious Robert Adams narrative?
There is nothing "dubious" about it. He blatantly says the Moors he saw were "quite black" yet with straight hair. He didn't say they were light-skinned or lighter than typical Africans but that in complexion the same as typical Africans only that they had loose hair.
quote: ^^ this guy is from Yemen. If Robert Adams narrative is true what he calls Moors are people that very likely could have been like this guy perhaps mixed with indigenous Africa.
Dumb trick, if the Moors were mixed with folks like the man above why are they not lighter skinned? Why are they still 'quite black'?? Also, the light-skinned guy above may be Yemeni but he is obviously NOT an indigenous Yemeni of the type that say mixed with folks in the Horn. Why do folks in Eritrea and northern Ethiopia with Eurasian derived J ancestry predominantly have tightly curled to kinky hair and NOT wavy hair??!
quote:You are trying to claim that their predominant hair type of dark skinned people in Mali is wavy straight hair? GTFOH
Where did I say such a thing, lyinass trickella?? I am merely saying that the predominant hair type of Saharan people in general is wavy. Many Malians are not even of Saharan ancestry but have ancestry from further south.
quote:That is laughable. The dark skinned malinans have afro kinky hair. The people like Tuareg also have some of these dark skinned kinky haired people but they also have many who are lighter skinned brown than other Malians. The ones that have wavy straight hair are these lighter skinned Beydan, lighter brown called "white moors".
LOL What is laughable are your claims that there is a direct correlation between skin color and hair form. Did you not read what I said?? Why are there many folks of mixed ancestry who have light skin yet kinky hair?? Why are there folks who are very dark/black but have wavy hair?? Answer the questions, trick. Does hair form correlate with skin color or not? Australian aborigines have wavy even light colored hair without admixture from Europeans yet have very dark (BLACK) skin!! And I already busted your lyinass on Denisovan ancestry being a reason when other Pacific aborigines have the same ancestry yet have kinky hair!
quote:You do not have the anthropology documentation to support your alternative claims
B|tch, YOU don't have any anthropology to back up YOUR made up claims! And my claims still have yet to be refuted! Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Just to review. The lyinass twit claims the wavy hair of Australian aborigines is a cold adapted trait inherited from alleged 'Denisovan' ancestry. Yet if such hair is cold adaptation, why are Australian aborigines tropically adapted in everything else i.e. (black) skin color and limb proportions?? Why is hair the only supposedly cold adapted trait? Better yet, before alleged Denisovan genes were discovered in Australian Aborigines, it was discovered in Papua New Guineans first!
Papua New Guineans
^ Note the Papuan people typically have KINKY type hair instead of wavy. Yet like Aussie Aborigines, blondism also occurs especially in children.
By the way, Papuans also have thick brow ridges which the lyinass claims is Denisovan. LOL
The point is Aussies and Papuans share the same genetic lineages and as well as many phenotypic traits except the former have wavy hair while the latter have kinky hair. What's interesting is that the kinky hair of the Papuans is strikingly similar to that of Central Africans including Pygmies. Why is that?? Could it be due to the obvious environmental differences? Australia is predominantly arid desert, while Papua New Guinea and Melanesia are humid forests. What’s more interesting is that the ONLY Australian people that didn’t exhibit loose hair were the Tasmanians.
Tasmanian
Tasmania is a very humid subtropical rainforest environment.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
And what about Indians?? Last time I checked, there is no Denisovan DNA in Indians or any modern humans outside of Southeast Asia, Australia, and the Pacific.
According to the lyinass theory, the Indian ancestors of the Australasian aborigines evolved their loose hair in the cold environment of northern Pakistan/Afghanistan area. Though the only lineages ancestral to Australasian aborigines are found in southern India NOT northern India. In fact, the genetic evidence of the these OOA beach combers is not only confined to the south but is very rare. Why? Because of a second wave of Out-of-African migrants that took place around 45-50 kya.
“One branch (of this second wave) from the Middle East, made its way swiftly into India. This small group traveling down into India from the north was so successful that they swamped out nearly all traces of the original coastal migration.”—Spencer Wells, Journey of Man.
Of course a lyinass would assume since they entered India from ‘the north’ they were somehow cold adapted, when there is no evidence whatsoever of this. The fact is, this second wavy of OOA from the Middle East expanded once the (tropical) deserts of Arabia and the rest of Southwest Asia began to wane. And as Wells stated, they entered India swiftly meaning no lingering in the high cold mountains of Afghanistan LOL. If anything, they entered via the Baluchistan areas of southeast Iran and southwest Pakistan as those areas were most hospitable since the Iranian plateau to Central Asia was still desert. This was the reason why
So what kind of hair did the original coastal migrants of southern India have? Nobody knows since there aren’t even any skeletal remains from that period of the Paleolithic let alone ‘hair’. However, there are some scholars who suggest they may have had kinky or frizzy type hair similar to Andamanese and other ‘Negritos’. The reason being is that such hair, though rare, still survives among the most isolated tribes of southern India--tribes such as the Irulas, the Paniyas, and Ghenuas. Western anthropologists have long noted the frequency of such hair among these isolated hunter-gatherer groups to suggest they are a remnant feature.
Ghenua
Irulas
Paniyas ^ the guy on the left
Although kinky or frizzy type hair is most frequent among these isolated tribes, its occurrence is still not as common as loose wavy hair even within the same tribes. So there may be a correlation to what Spencer stated about the original southern coastal types being swamped out by the second wave of OOAs. But again, we don’t know for certain what the actual hair type of the original coastal dwellers was.
And although kinky or frizzy hair is most frequent among the rural tribes, it still shows up in certain occasions among non-tribal folks.
Guru Sri Bala Sai Baba Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
And what of Arabians, the original source population ancestral to all other OOAs including Indians? There are virtually no genetic lineages yet identified in Arabia associated with the first coastal migration. Most lineages are associated with the 2nd wave of OOA while a few others are identified with more recent waves associated with PN2 (hg E).
When it comes to Arabians one must make a distinction between the indigenous Arabians and the stereotypical fair-skinned Arabs of recent northern origins.
The lyinass posted this picture below of a modern Yemeni Arab…
..even though Yemen has received waves of migration from Iran and Iraq since Medieval times. Obviously fair-skinned cold adapted types are not original to Arabia which lies from tropics to subtropics especially southern Arabia which is definitely in the tropics. Even the Arab peoples generally divide themselves into Arab ul-'Aribah (original Arabs) and Arab ul-Musta'ribah (assimilated Arabs).
This man below is a far better representative of indigenous south Arab Yemenis.
Shahara tribesman
Hair form among the indigenous (black) Arabians varies also. While many display wavy type hair, some especially around Yemen and Asir regions possess tight curled to kinky hair forms.
Peoples with typically tight coiled hair:
Akhdam
Qarra
Hawt
Many have tried to dismiss the features of the allegedly non-Arab, outcaste Akhdam people as evidence of Ethiopian ancestry. This is funny considering that the Qarra and Hawt possess the same features yet are not considered outcastes but members of the Arab ul-'Aribah peoples. Also, all three groups possess lineages typical of Arabians particularly upstream J1 and J. Even many western anthropologists have decades ago noted an indigenous ‘Negrito’ or in some cases ‘Negroid’ presence in Arabia as per the mentioned peoples. In fact tightly coiled hair is so common in Yemen that such hair is actually the stereotypical hair of Yemenis and that includes lighter-skinned Mutrariba (mixed) type Arabs of the region.
So what was the hair form of the first OOA people who settled the southern coasts of Arabia? Nobody knows. What was the hair form of the second wave of OOA migrants who completely took over? Again, the same answer. What is interesting is that both tight coiled and loose hair forms coincide in the southern Arabian region while the former is most common in southwest Arabia/Yemen. Why is that? Nobody knows, but my theory is that it may have something to do with the relatively more humid climate of Yemen especially in the Tihama areas. Even during the time of the first OOA, when most of Africa and almost all of Arabia became desert, the only areas that had adequate rainfall from the Indian ocean currents was coastal south Arabia and the Horn which was the reason why the early OOA people not only survived but followed the prey animals along the coasts. For much of human history, the Yemen was more fertile an area than the rest of Arabia hence the ancient Roman term ‘Arabia Felix’. Again, this is my theory but definitely the loose hair of other indigenous Arabians had nothing to do with cold adaptation as there is no evidence for that among indigenous Arabians as it is in India or Australia.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
So what about Horn Africans? Many Euronuts love to emphasize the ‘Eurasian’ admixture among Horn African populations, especially Eritreans and Ethiopians. There is the famous Tishkoff study showing 40% Eurasian admixture among Amhara for instance who are just one ethnic group of Ethiopians. Many stupidly assume that wavy hair form is a sign of such admixture yet the majority of Eritreans and Ethiopians display tight hair forms i.e. kinky to tight curls. Most of this alleged Eurasian admixture is dated to Neolithic times, yet there is no evidence that even the Neolithic Arabians who contributed this admixture had loose hair. As I showed in my previous post, the majority of Yemenis have coiled hair forms as well and nothing like the ‘Caucasian’ type if judging from the indigenous tribes I showed! Interestingly enough, the majority of Horn Africans who exhibit loose hair lie in the more arid lowlands and deserts away from the highlands and coasts. This was pointed out by the moderator Henu (an Ethiopian poster) who says that loose hair among Ethiopians is not as common as the Euronuts make it out to be. Even Yonis (a Somali poster) stated similarly that the majority of loose haired Somalis live in the south away from the northern coasts. Thus ‘Eurasian’ genetic influence is not a valid reason for loose hair form among Horn Africans as well.
Somalis are predominantly African in ancestry yet even those individuals with alleged ‘Eurasian’ ancestry are no different from other Somalis in that they exhibit super-tropical adaptations, so why would their hair form be an exception?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^Excellent series of posts. I've always suspected that Somalis have a higher incidence of wavy-straight hair than other Horners (combined with a higher proportion of African ancestry than other Horners) due to their possession of E-M35 subclades that show that their male ancestors originate in the Eastern Sahara, while they carry few to no E-M35 subclades that have originated in Ethiopia. What do you think about that theory?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Again, we have no idea what hair form the early OOA peoples had or even their immediate ancestors before they left Africa. The point is that BOTH tight and loose forms exist among black aboriginal populations including those who carry the oldest genetic lineages associated with OOA. Australian aborigines typically have loose wavy hair with exception of those in Tasmania. Aussie aborigines share common ancestry with Papuans, Melanesians, and even Andamanese who have tight coiled hair. In India while loose hair is very predominant, tight hair still seldom occurs particularly in the most isolated tribes of southern India. In Arabia kinky hair exists side by side with wavy hair. There is NO evidence whatsoever that loose hair has anything to do with cold adaptation since all other features of the aboriginal peoples who have them are tropically adapted. What’s more is that the division between loose and tight is not clear cut but grades from the tightest spiral tuft to kinky, to curly, then wavy with a loosening of the follicle form.
And what about the ancestral Africans who spawned the OOA people? Spencer Wells and others demonstrate that these oldest deepest clades are possessed by the diverse populations from the Khoisan who have the spiral tuft or ‘peppercorn’ texture that is the tighest coiled form, to the Hadzabe who have kinky hair to Ethiopians. In fact, the Hadzabe seem to hold the closest affinities to ‘Eurasian Adam’ to the point that even the National Geographic Genographic Project views Tanzania as the cradle of the OOA ancestors. We have skeletal remains that give us an idea of how these early modern humans looked in terms of facial form and features but NO evidence on hair. According to all the skeletal evidence, Africans prior to the Holocene exhibited a greater diversity of cranio-facial features than Africans today. If this was the case then why couldn’t there be a diversity of hair forms, especially considering that Africans possessed tremendous genetic diversity. As per my theory, loose wavy hair seems to be associated with arid environments. If most of Africa and Arabia became desert due to an Ice Age, then loose hair forms would have been favored which is why some folks portray the early modern humans who left Africa to look like the below.
depiction of Early OOA AMH Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
^ Great posts, and I agree that there must exist a correlation between hair form and aridity. If only we knew what the selective pressures were though!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Somalis are predominantly African in ancestry yet even those individuals with alleged ‘Eurasian’ ancestry are no different from other Somalis in that they exhibit super-tropical adaptations, so why would their hair form be an exception?
______^^^^ Djehootie's right Somalis are predominantly African, see the African percentage
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^Your reasoning doesn't make any sense. That genetic input you're referring to is mostly 3000 years old, and wavy-straight hair (as well as other so called ''Caucasian traits'') in the region pre-dates that time period:
Also, you're ignoring Djehuti's post where he says that Somalis have more incidences of wavy-straight hair than Cushitic speaking Ethiopians, even though Cushitic speaking Ethiopians consistently have more non-African ancestry. Why must you always be so sneaky?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LMAO The dumb twit ain't sneaky at all but rather predictable with her passive-aggressive trolling. No matter. All of her lies have been addressed and soundly refuted in my series of posts above.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^Excellent post.
I wasn't quite done, but NOW I am. I just wanted to dispel this lyinass claim that loose hair or at least the wavy kind seen among aboriginal blacks is somehow a cold adaptation when there is NO evidence whatsoever suggest this! Even her less than parsimonious theory of adapting to cold climate of Afghanistan is hilarious. LOL Neither does it explain the wavy hair of Africans who never left the continent and have no Eurasian ancestry whatsoever! Even Ausar mentioned folks in Uganda who have wavy hair yet are otherwise stereotypically "negroid" looking in everything else! It is also silly to presume that these alleged Eurasians contributed their genes for hair only but not skin color, skeletal features, or anything else.
It is this ridiculous persistence in racial thinking that's the problem. And despite the racial nonsense we have this old entry from Britannica (1990 edition) East African local race, a subgroup, roughly corresponding to a breeding isolate in genetics, of the Negroid (African) geographical race, comprising the populations of East Africa and The Sudan. The physical type of the East African local race is primarily one of adaptation to a hot, dry climate; it is marked by long, thin body build, long, narrow face and nose, and moderate to heavy skin pigmentation. The Sudanese peoples are dark-skinned and extremely tall and thin (linear) in build. The other East African populations are also more or less linear in build and somewhat lighter skinned than the Sudanese. All have dark eyes and dark hair, wavy to frizzy in texture.
This brings us back to the actual topic of Egyptians and their Nubian including northern Sudanese neighbors who exhibit such hair... Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QB] ^Your reasoning doesn't make any sense. That genetic input you're referring to is mostly 3000 years old, and wavy-straight hair (as well as other so called ''Caucasian traits'') in the region pre-dates that time period.
what reasoning, Djefruity reasoned that Somalis were predominantly African. I put up a chart confirming it.
Now your are talking about wavy-straight hair in the Somali region prior to 3000 years old. What time period in years are you talking about and what remains had hair on them of that period?
What you have said doesn't make sense because Djefruitys comment was not applied on pictures of anceint remains. It was applied to pictures of modern Somalis probably still alive today
lioness productions
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
You guys win again. Sudanese are predominantly African Look at the East African contribution, it's the highest
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LOL Typical lyinass spinning. Now she cites DNATribes in a distorted way as to claim Sudanese are only 36% African meaning that they are 66.3% Eurasian (if one excluded the "other")! LMAO
And this despite Sudan having the blackest people in the world as well as having predominantly kinky hair form!
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass nut: what reasoning, Djefruity reasoned that Somalis were predominantly African. I put up a chart confirming it.
Now your are talking about wavy-straight hair in the Somali region prior to 3000 years old. What time period in years are you talking about and what remains had hair on them of that period?
What you have said doesn't make sense because Djefruitys comment was not applied on pictures of anceint remains. It was applied to pictures of modern Somalis probably still alive today
YOU are calling me 'fruity' even though you now attempt to de-Africanize Sudan in attempt to save your lyinass face?! LOL
quote:lyinass productions
flushed down the drain. Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
It escapes most people that geographical labeling derives from constructions whether arbitrary or not.
But such labeling cannot work for purportedly scientific anthropology.
Humans have traveled to all parts of the globe in search of habitat territory, tracking hunt animals, escaping from droughts, etc.
Naive readers are often put off by claims that population X has genomic inputs not only from region X but also from region Y, without recognising that region Y is but a geographical continuation of region X.
The point is that when humans migrate their evolutionary status is determined not by some arbitrarily imposed geographical boundary condition but by more meaningful considerations such as bottlenecks, founder effects, genetic drift, assorted mating[as in the case of close-kin matings, etc.].
Most of the above variables are determined by ease of movement--as in whether movement is restricted by terrain such as mountains, water(seas, oceans, rivers, etc.), forests, deserts, extreme cold, etc.
Thus, in this context terms like "African", "non-African", "Eurasian", "Asian", "sub-Saharan", etc. really don't make sense. The optimal analysis should be conducted purely in terms of genomic structures determined by sex and autosomal chromosome analysis.
Eurocentric analysis is a major offender in this regard.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
On the matter of climate on hair form I am rather agnostic on this matter. The reason is that homo sapiens(humans) are in no way exempt from the same bio-environmental pressures that affect other animals.
The puzzle is that animals that live in hot and humid forest conditions can have have hair coverings that are not in discernible way distinct from animals that live in dry-hot or dry-frigid conditions. The same for humid-hot and humid-cold.
Take the easy case of the Orangutan. These primates with wispy-type reddish-brownish hair live in the hot, humid forests of tropical Borneo, Sumatra and other parts of hot, humid Indonesia. The same for the Bengal tiger[as distinct from the Siberian tiger] that lives in hot, humid Indian forests. The Bengal tiger and its Siberian cousin share the same straight hair. The same for forest dwelling monkeys, squirrels, black panthers, jaguars,etc.
The same for hot and cold dwelling members of the family "canis". African wild dogs and foxes have similar straight hair coverings as their Asian and European cousins.
I go back to my original suggestive hypothesis: mating within population isolates is what produces most phenotypical differentiations especially if variables such as founder effects, bottlenecks, genetic drift, etc. are at work.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
You guys win again. Sudanese are predominantly African Look at the East African contribution, it's the highest
Now everyone can REALLY see you're shaken up mentally. Those ancestry percentages are obviously a function of their selective sampling and/or their true negro approach (oh, that STR value doesn't occur in West/Central Africans, so it must be Eurasian). Also, there are people living in Sudan today who look no different from modern light skinned Egyptians, and whose ancestry clusters accordingly. For me to take those ancestry percentages serious, YOU will have to show that those scenarios aren't at play here.
Of course, you will act like you've never read this challenge, because you know that there will be more spanking waiting on you.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Somalis are predominantly African in ancestry yet even those individuals with alleged ‘Eurasian’ ancestry are no different from other Somalis in that they exhibit super-tropical adaptations, so why would their hair form be an exception? [/QB]
The usual nonsense. Aethiopids are predominantly frizzy or very curly, not wavy as in the Europid or Caucasoid sense. Also while the Aethiopid type as a Caucasoid-Negroid interracial cline predominates in Somali, it is not the entire population of course [no population is a single type], nowhere near in fact, so no-one denied Negroids, or others being there (Baker, 1981):
“The Aethiopids (‘Eastern Hamites’ or ‘Erythriotes’) of Ethiopia and Somaliland are an essentially Europid subrace with some Negrid admixture. Typically these are slender people of medium stature, dolicho- or mesocranial; the face is more or less of the Europid form, with rather narrow, prominent nose; there is no prognathism (Fig. 30B, p. 230). Various parts of the body give evidence, however, of Negrid influence. The skin is reddish- or blackish-brown. The dark brown or black scalp-hair is ... variable in texture in different local forms, but as a rule it is not wavy, like that of typical Europids, nor wound into many tight spirals (what the French call ‘cheveux crépus’) like that of Negrids, but of the intermediate condition described as ‘frizzy’ (‘cheveux frisés’), in which each hair curls into several ringlets, the spiral having a diameter of 1 cm or more.” (pp. 225-226)
Wavy hair in Somali is not even common.
Coon (1965, pp. 120-121) -
"The least Negroid peoples of the highlands are the Ethiopians proper... and the Gallas... The majority have frizzy hair. The next commonest is curly hair... [Somalis]: a third have wavy hair."
Its obvious wavy hair did not origin there.
Afrocentrics aren't interested in science, they only are claiming wavy hair is "Black" because they despise their nappy hair. The funny thing is Aethiopids with looser hair textures do not consider themselves "Black". Somali females of the Aethiopid type [as found on Somalinet, Hamiticunion etc] want nothing to do with Negroid men and call them ugly apes.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Ignoring the idiot above who obviously did not read by last series of posts and who still cites outdated and debunked Coon crap.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass nut,:
You guys win again. Sudanese are predominantly African Look at the East African contribution, it's the highest
Now everyone can REALLY see you're shaken up mentally. Those ancestry percentages are obviously a function of their selective sampling and/or their true negro approach (oh, that STR value doesn't occur in West/Central Africans, so it must be Eurasian). Also, there are people living in Sudan today who look no different from modern light skinned Egyptians, and whose ancestry clusters accordingly. For me to take those ancestry percentages serious, YOU will have to show that those scenarios aren't at play here.
Of course, you will act like you've never read this challenge, because you know that there will be more spanking waiting on you.
Precisely my point. You know these Euronuts are frantic when they try to white-wash or rather 'Eurasianize' Sudanese people! LOL Even the vast majority of Sudanese folks are considered non-Arab by the 'Arab' Sudanese minority of the north and even then the actual Arab ancestry of most Arab Sudanese is questionable. Note how using STR values the folks at DNATribes will call ancestry from as far away as Australia among East Africans! LOL Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
International Journal of Dermatology, 2012, 51 (Suppl. 1): 12–16
"Human hair is categorized into three broad groups, namely, African [Negroid], Caucasian, and Asian [Mongoloid] based on morphological variations but without major biochemical differences. The structure of African hair is a flattened ellipse, with several small twists and inconsistent cuticle and fiber diameter. It is brittle, tightly coiled, spring-like and has the slowest growth rate. In comparison, Asian hair is circular in cross-section, straight, thicker, with the highest tensile strength and fastest growth rate while Caucasian hair is oval, straight to wavy with medium diameter and tensile strength...Most individuals with the African [Negroid] hair type are dissatisfied with their hair in its natural state."
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
GOOGLE: Rensch's hair law or rule.
"The density and length of mammalian hair is less in warm climates."
Checkmate again Afroloons.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
"ANALYSIS: TALKING HAIR
Hair texture clearly held symbolic meaning for my participants. The women distinguished between "good" and "bad" hair by its texture, length, and curl pattern.
The longer, straighter. and silkier the hair the closer it was to their concept of "good" hair.
Conversely, the women designated short, curly, and woolly hair as "bad" hair.
Good hair was a code word for Caucasian, or straight, hair
On the opposite end of the continuum, bad hair served as a code for African, or kinky, hair."
- "No Nubian knots or Nappy Locks: Discussing the Politics of Hair Among Women of African Decent in the Diaspora. A Report on Research in Progress" Transforming Anthropology Volume 11, Issue 2, pages 60–63, July 2003 http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1525/tran.2003.11.2.60/abstract Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: It escapes most people that geographical labeling derives from constructions whether arbitrary or not.
But such labeling cannot work for purportedly scientific anthropology.
Humans have traveled to all parts of the globe in search of habitat territory, tracking hunt animals, escaping from droughts, etc.
Naive readers are often put off by claims that population X has genomic inputs not only from region X but also from region Y, without recognising that region Y is but a geographical continuation of region X.
The point is that when humans migrate their evolutionary status is determined not by some arbitrarily imposed geographical boundary condition but by more meaningful considerations such as bottlenecks, founder effects, genetic drift, assorted mating[as in the case of close-kin matings, etc.].
Most of the above variables are determined by ease of movement--as in whether movement is restricted by terrain such as mountains, water(seas, oceans, rivers, etc.), forests, deserts, extreme cold, etc.
Thus, in this context terms like "African", "non-African", "Eurasian", "Asian", "sub-Saharan", etc. really don't make sense. The optimal analysis should be conducted purely in terms of genomic structures determined by sex and autosomal chromosome analysis.
Eurocentric analysis is a major offender in this regard.
This is precisely the point I have been consistently making time and again, lamin! What exactly separates 'Eurasian' from 'African' especially going back to the first Eurasians who were essentially African colonists. According to the Euronuts once it is outside the African continent, even if it is right next door to the continent like Arabia and the Levant, it is no longer 'African'. This all stems from the same desperate Eurocentric and I dare say racist intent to divorce one's ancestors from Africans!
This is why we get all this talk of 'back-migrations' and genetic influence of Eurasians on Africans, even if such was the result of folks right next door to Africa. We see this a lot with the data on mitochondrial (maternal) lineages in Africa said to be Eurasian. Which is why Keita provided the following caveat. The issue of how much Paleolithic migration from the Near East there may have been is intriguing, and the mitochondrial DNA variation may need to be reassessed as to what can be considered to be only of "Eurasian origin" because if hunters and gatherers roamed between the Saharan and supra-Saharan regions and Eurasia it might be difficult to determine exactly "where" a mutation arose.-- Keita, In Hot Pursuit of Language in Prehistory ed. John Benjamins. (2008)
A perfect analogy would be the people of the British Isles who are of course derived from mainland Europeans. Whatever genetic difference arose among the people of the Isles would then make them 'different' constitute them as a whole from other Europeans and whatever back-migrations these British took to the mainland would be viewed as 'British genetic influence on Europeans'. LOL
But now this drive to divorce the early Eurasians from their African brethren has gotten worse and delves into the depths of insanity. Recall Swenet's thread on new aDNA findings by Fu et al. (2013) which states that the division between 'Eurasians' and Africans first occurred IN Africa before the OOA event! LMAO
This issue of African vs. Eurasian is another topic in its own right which deserves a thread of its own. In the meantime I want to discuss the topic of THIS thread which is the wavy hair of some Kemetians and Nubians.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fartheabonkers: GOOGLE: Rensch's hair law or rule.
"The density and length of mammalian hair is less in warm climates."
Checkmate again Afroloons.
Nobody is talking about density and length but rather texture like wavy and kinky, dummy.
Britannica (1990 edition) East African local race, a subgroup, roughly corresponding to a breeding isolate in genetics, of the Negroid (African) geographical race, comprising the populations of East Africa and The Sudan. The physical type of the East African local race is primarily one of adaptation to a hot, dry climate; it is marked by long, thin body build, long, narrow face and nose, and moderate to heavy skin pigmentation. The Sudanese peoples are dark-skinned and extremely tall and thin (linear) in build. The other East African populations are also more or less linear in build and somewhat lighter skinned than the Sudanese. All have dark eyes and dark hair, wavy to frizzy in texture. Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
Hair growth and texture are directly linked to the follicle.
So how do you explain this?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^Your reasoning doesn't make any sense. That genetic input you're referring to is mostly 3000 years old, and wavy-straight hair (as well as other so called ''Caucasian traits'') in the region pre-dates that time period.
Now your are talking about wavy-straight hair in the Somali region prior to 3000 years old. What time period in years are you talking about and what remains had hair on them of that period?
still waiting on your sources here for a defined time range, existence of straight hair in the Somali region, documented before 3000 years go
________________________________________________
^^^^ why did this hair evolve?
It seems that it evolved as an adaptation to cold tempertures rather than arid conditions
what about people with straight hair in the Amazon rainforest? Well the ancestors of the natives of the Americas are believed to have come from Siberia. There's your key. People with straight hair in tropical envirionments had ancestors who at some point lived in colder climates.
What is going to keep your neck warmer the type of hair above or an afro? The answer is obvious.
Look at the woman above. Here hair is more suited to the dry Sahara than an afro? Japan is drier than the Sahara It doesn't make sense
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^^ this is a simple cartoon type drawing. It's hard to tell the texture type of hair, It could be straight or ot could be:
micro braids
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
^ "HAIR TYPE, FORM, AND COLOR Hair is composed of keratinized cells tightly cemented together (Mayr, 1970). Humans are closely categorized in accordance with hair color, type, and form-for example, wavy, straight, irregular, or spiral. These features serve descriptive, rather than causal, pur-poses. It seems the degree of hair coil coincides closely with the extent of tightness of the keratinized cells. Hair tends to coil less away from the tropics. The extent of coiling appears to be correlated with humid/hot ver-sus dry/cold binary opposition. Thence, hair tends to coil more in hot and humid Florida and less in cooler and less humid California."
Variation within the Black Human Race-Paleoecological Sketches to the Nonstarted Journal of Black Studies, Vol. 31, No. 6 (Jul., 2001), pp. 812-834
Lol. So you even have most Afrocentric journals even agreeing straight-wavy hair is a cold northern latitude (non-African) adaptation.
Apart from Zaharan and Swenet behind their keyboards, no one else is claiming "Blacks have straight hair". Not even the Journal of Black Studies... Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Yet nobody is saying blacks have straight hair like the kind you see in Europeans or east Asians, dummy.
"HAIR TYPE, FORM, AND COLOR Hair is composed of keratinized cells tightly cemented together (Mayr, 1970). Humans are closely categorized in accordance with hair color, type, and form-for example, wavy, straight, irregular, or spiral. These features serve descriptive, rather than causal, pur-poses. It seems the degree of hair coil coincides closely with the extent of tightness of the keratinized cells. Hair tends to coil less away from the tropics. The extent of coiling appears to be correlated with humid/hot ver-sus dry/cold binary opposition. Thence, hair tends to coil more in hot and humid Florida and less in cooler and less humid California."
Variation within the Black Human Race-Paleoecological Sketches to the Nonstarted Journal of Black Studies, Vol. 31, No. 6 (Jul., 2001), pp. 812-834
So what about hot but arid environments?? We know deserts arid yet hot as well during the days but cool at night and this is true of tropical deserts. Thus the above study seems to prove my theory that loose hair evolved in the tropics in arid conditions. The comparison between California and Florida may not be as fair because the two states are at different latitudes but a better comparison would be Florida and Mexico with Florida being more humid while Mexico is more arid.
Plus lyinass is right. The above picture does not indicate exactly what kind of hair follicle they have.
The hair could be braided OR it could be altered due to the result of braiding such as the ladies below.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Anyway, getting back to the crux of the matter of this thread...
Ausar, the former moderator, who is himself Egyptian, has explained on many occasions that loose or wavy hair really is not that common at all among native Egyptians and rather tight curls or kinky hair is more predominant. In fact wavy type hair occurs most often in deep Sa'id i.e. the very southern areas of Egypt as opposed to the north. And that wavy hair is actually more common among Nubians than in Egyptians!
There’s no need for me to post artistic evidence as I’m sure all of you have seen the countless tomb images and depictions of Egyptians with ‘round’ afro hairs and wigs. And even Truthcentric was sharp enough to point out those images of Egyptians with short cropped hair that had a wave pattern due to the application of butter or animal fat. Again this pattern affect happens in the hair of people with tight coiled hair.
All of this is also corroborated by Greco-Roman sources which consistently describe Egyptian hair to be stereotypical of other Libyans (Africans) in that it is wooly, extremely, curly or even 'crooked'.
Herodotus: “they are black-skinned and have woolly hair”
Aristotle makes reference to the hair form of Egyptians and Ethiopians: "Why are the Ethiopians and Egyptians bandy-legged? Is it because the bodies of living creatures become distorted by heat, like logs of wood when they become dry? The condition of their hair supports this theory; for it is curlier than that of other nations, and curliness is as it were crookedness of the hair." (Physiognomics, Book XIV, p. 317)
Note that the Egyptians the Greco-Romans were most familiar with were those living in the Delta region. Yet it was the same Delta region that became inundated by foreigners post-dynastic times. Yet even today tighter hair remains common. Even Ausar has stated on many occasions that many ‘Arab’ Egyptians men who grow out their hair end up with afros and that many Egyptian women actually use hair relaxers to straighten their hair even if they wear hijabs!
Modern Egyptians
Interesting how the ONLY evidence we have of loose haired ancient Egyptians comes to us only from a select group of mummies. Yet not only is it a fact that the embalming chemicals of mummification alter hair, but the vast majority of these loose haired mummies are members of dynasties that originate in the very south of Egypt where loose hair is more common.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
refer to the first 5 posts on page 1
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: It's in the same UV cluster
It’s also in the same cluster as indigenous South Asians and Southeast Asians, many of whom have straighter hair than Europeans. What is your point?
You can keep ''new evidence'' all you want. All you're doing is proving your habit to flip flop and knock down strawmen. Then there is the fact that other UV maps don't depict Northern Africa as in the same UV range as Equatorial Africa:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Its not hard to imagine that hair type in more Northern regions (relative to Yemen) [e.g., the Eastern Sahara] could easily produce more looser hair than what's visible on the head of that guy you've posted.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: refer to the first 5 posts on page 1
The point I'm making goes back to the very issue of this thread that Swenet has brought up. That wavy type hair was discovered among Nubian remains in Semna from different periods.
That most of the Egyptian royal mummies who exhibit such hair are themselves are suggested to have Nubian ancestry such as those of the 17th and 18th dynasties as well as older Old Kingdom dynasties.
The late XVII Dynasty and XVIII Dynasty royal mummies display the strongest Nubian affinities. In terms of maxillary protrusion as measured by SNA, the mean value for these Pharaohs is 84.21 comparable to that of African Americans. They exceed the latter in terms of ANB and SN-M Plane, but are closer to Caucasians in regards to SNB. However, the ability of SNA and SNB to predict maxillary and mandibular protrusion respectively has been questioned. Some studies suggest that measuring prognathism from the Frankfort horizontal would produce more reliable results (See RM Ricketts, RJ Schulhof, L Bagha. Orientation-sella-nasion or Frankfort horizontal. Am J Orthod 1976 Jun;69(6):648-654; also JW Moore. Variation of the sella-nasion plane and its effect on SNA and SNB. J Oral Surg. 1976 Jan; 34(1): 24-26).
In regards to head shape, the late XVII and XVIII dynasty mummies are very close to Nubian samples intermediate between the Mesolithic and Christian periods. The zygomatic arches are almost always vertical or forward and not receding...
..In summation, the New Kingdom Pharaohs and Queens whose mummies have been recovered bear strong similarity to either contemporary Nubians, as with the XVII and XVIII dynasties, or with Mesolithic-Holocene Nubians, as with the XVIV and XX dynasties. The former dynasties seem to have a strong southern affinity, while the latter possessed evidence of mixing with modern Mediterranean types and also, possibly, with remnants of the old Tasian and Natufian populations. From the few sample available from the XXI Dynasty, there may have been a new infusion from the south at this period.”
--- P.K. Manansala's review of Harris and Wente's X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies
From the same book James Harris writes of Sekenenra Tao, founder of the 17th dynasty:
"His entire lower facial complex, in fact, is so different from other pharaohs that he could be fitted more easily into the series of Nubian and Old Kingdom Giza skulls than into that of later Egyptian kings. Various scholars in the past have proposed a Nubian--that is, non-Egyptian--origin for Seqenenra and his family, and his facial features suggest this might indeed be true. If it is, the history of the family that reputedly drove the Hyksos from Egypt, and the history of the Seventeenth Dynasty, stand in need of considerable re-examination."
From the 2nd page of this thread Swenet cites a passage from Yurco about Sekenenra Tao having tightly curled hair as another of his typical Nubian features. But actually that is WRONG.
Here is the typical frontal view of Sekenenra's mummy.
And here is a bottom view of his head showing more of his hair:
^ As you can see there is nothing "tightly curled" about his hair at all. I dare say that Yurco presumed that Tao's hair was tightly curled due to his more obvious 'Nubian' facial features.
What's more is that such wavy hair was also found to be relatively common among Badarian remains, and we know the Badarians did not use embalming fluid but used the natural desert.
Swenet has already cited many sources on how the Badarians looked cranio-facially and they definitely were not 'Caucasoid' in that department or any for that matter.
Here are a couple more sources on the Badarians.
"Badarian occupies a position closest to the Teita, Gaboon, Nubian, and Nagada series by centroid values and territorial maps. The Nagada and the Kerma series are so similar that they are barely distinguishable in the territorial maps; they subsume the first dynasty series in Abydos… The Badarian crania have a modal metric phenotype that is clearly “southern”; most classify into the Kerma (Nubian), Gaboon, and Kenyan groups… No Badarian cranium in any analysis classified into the European series"--- Keita (1990)
"In the sum, the results obtained further strengthen the results from previous analyses. The affinities between Nazlet Khater, MSA, and Khoisan and Khoisan related groups re-emerges. In addition it is possible to detect a separation between North African and sub-saharan populations, with the Neolithic Saharan population from Hasi el Abiod and the Egyptian Badarian group being closely affiliated with modern Negroid groups..."--- Vermeersch (2002)
Yet all these folks have wavy hair. By the way, it was already discussed in the first few pages that trichonometric indices of the hairs cluster them with other Sub-Saharans rather with with Europeans or Asians. Therefore notions of Euro-asiatic influence for such hair are utterly destroyed. Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Good example with Seqenenre Tao. His hair matches some of the Nubian hair form descriptions to a T, re: wavy and flowing. What do you mean with ''trichonometric indices of the hairs cluster them with Sub-Saharans''? Do you mean this typical Sub-Saharan hair trait?
quote:They were studied microscopically by S. Tittelbachova' from the Institute of Anthropology of the Charles University, who found in five out of seven samples a change in the thickness of the hair in the course of its length, sometimes with a simultaneous narrowing of the hair pith. (...) These peculiarities also show the Negroid influence among the Badarians.
--Strouhal, 1971
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^^^ It seems peculiar that all of this is Nubian.
^ Just got through reading the article. Very interesting indeed. Comes to show how genetic factors can influence phenotypic features, yet this again proves that ONE feature alone is not enough to jump to the conclusion of genetic influence or ancestry from another populace. Unfortunately not many folks are bright enough to learn this..
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,:
^^^^^ It seems peculiar that all of this is Nubian.
It's only 'peculiar' to folks totally ignorant about phenotypic diversity in Africans or humans in general as well as genetics. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Good example with Seqenenre Tao. His hair matches some of the Nubian hair form descriptions to a T, re: wavy and flowing. What do you mean with ''trichonometric indices of the hairs cluster them with Sub-Saharans''? Do you mean this typical Sub-Saharan hair trait?
quote:They were studied microscopically by S. Tittelbachova' from the Institute of Anthropology of the Charles University, who found in five out of seven samples a change in the thickness of the hair in the course of its length, sometimes with a simultaneous narrowing of the hair pith. (...) These peculiarities also show the Negroid influence among the Badarians.
--Strouhal, 1971
No, I mean the actual index of the cross-sections of the hairs.
http://wysinger.homestead.com/hair2.html "The outline of the cross-sections of the hairs was flattened, with indices ranging from 35 to 65. These peculiarities also show the Negroid inference among the Badarians (pre-dynastic Egyptians)."
The term "Negroid influence" suggests intermixture, but as the table suggests this hair is more "Negroid" than the San and the Zulu samples, currently the most Negroid hair in existence!
In another study, hair samples from ten 18th-25th dynasty individuals produced an average index of 51! As far back as 1877, Dr. Pruner-Bey analyzed six ancient Egyptian hair samples. Their average index of 64.4 was similar to the Tasmanians who lie at the periphery of the African-haired populations(1).
San, Southern African 55.00 Zulu, Southern African 55.00 Sub-Saharan Africa 60.00 Tasmanian (Black) 64.70 Australian (Black) 68.00 Western European 71.20 Asian Indian 73.00 Navajo American 77.00 Chinese 82.60 Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^Noted
quote:Biologically, the degree of curliness is correlated with the distribution of hair keratins and cell type within the hair fibre, with the number of mesocortical cells decreasing as the curl intensifies (Thibaut et al., 2007). Recent studies have identified Asian specific alleles of EDAR and FGFR2 that are associated with thick straight hair, suggesting that these variants arose following the divergence of Asians and Europeans (Fujimoto et al., 2008; Fujimoto et al., 2009). It seems likely that parallel mutations may have evolved giving rise to straight hair in Europeans. However, to date no genetic variants have been identified influencing hair texture in Europeans. Here we examine the evidence for genetic effects on hair texture in three twin samples as a precursor to analyses attempting to indentify genes influencing this trait in individuals of European ancestry.
quote:Hair growth and texture are directly linked to the follicle.
Egyptian women are known to have worn wigs, hairpieces, and extensions. The men usually shaved their heads or wore moderate East African type styles.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Proof of the hair forms of AEs is easily got from observing that on their murals the generic male Egyptian never seems to be able to grow a full beard as with the West Asian types. And hair on the head is usually "bunched up" springy style or a wig is worn.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Note that the tradition of wig-wearing and adding extensions and braids seems to go all the way back to Ancient Egypt.
The colonialists used to refer to Africans who "bunched up" their hair as "fuzzy wuzzies"--as one sees with the Tutsies, Himas, and others. Yet to conform to modern styles the females of such groups wear extensions, wigs, and braids which are popular in Kenya, Ethiopia, Uganda, Somalia, etc.
^ Yes and like many other African societies, hairstyles including wigs are a sign of status. Certain styles reflect things like gender, age, and position in the community.
What's funny is that many Euronuts often stress "straight haired" wigs, yet the majority of wigs I've seen are actually of the wooly type usually braided.
And the "straight haired" wigs were surely from war captives from Asia or "comfort-girls" brought in from West Asia.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ The Egyptians were known to have traded hair from other nations and not from war captives. Still the vast majority of wigs was made from native hair in and around the Nile Valley.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^Noted
quote:Biologically, the degree of curliness is correlated with the distribution of hair keratins and cell type within the hair fibre, with the number of mesocortical cells decreasing as the curl intensifies (Thibaut et al., 2007). Recent studies have identified Asian specific alleles of EDAR and FGFR2 that are associated with thick straight hair, suggesting that these variants arose following the divergence of Asians and Europeans (Fujimoto et al., 2008; Fujimoto et al., 2009). It seems likely that parallel mutations may have evolved giving rise to straight hair in Europeans. However, to date no genetic variants have been identified influencing hair texture in Europeans. Here we examine the evidence for genetic effects on hair texture in three twin samples as a precursor to analyses attempting to indentify genes influencing this trait in individuals of European ancestry.
So we know that wavy-straight hair evolved at least twice, paralleling the mutation for light skin somewhat. Since West Eurasian and European divergences can be quite deep, sometimes involving people who are primarily linked by more or less early OOA haplogroups, is it reasonable to suggest that the European mutation for wavy straight hair evolved before the settlement of Europe?
Since the habitation of high latitude Europe post-dates the split of West Asians and Europeans--who both have the same hair mutations--I think its save to say that wavy-straight hair in Europe is NOT necessarily an adaptation to low UV/high latitudes, as maintained by Modo-face.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Proof of the hair forms of AEs is easily got from observing that on their murals the generic male Egyptian never seems to be able to grow a full beard as with the West Asian types. And hair on the head is usually "bunched up" springy style or a wig is worn.
Pre/proto dynastic art shows plenty of Egypto-Nubians with facial hair. Were they unable to grow it, or was it their concious choice?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Interesting question. You are right that predynastic depictions both statues and rock engravings show bearded males. Though Ausar points out that many Egyptians at least in certain areas don't grow full beards that well. Even many pharaohs would wear false beards.
I think it depends on the specific population within Egypt.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^Perhaps. Also relevant: wavy haired Gebelein mummy called ''Ginger'' has been CAT scanned and shows a facial morphology consistent with other pre-dynastic remains. LMAO. So much for the retarded Nordic origins speculations. What else is new?
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QB] ^Perhaps. Also relevant: wavy haired Gebelein mummy called ''Ginger'' has been CAT scanned and shows a facial morphology consistent with other pre-dynastic remains. LMAO. So much for the retarded Nordic origins speculations. What else is new?
what about Near Eastern?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
What about the Near East?
Figure 6.3 illustrates some of the cranial parameters of Egyptian, Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age skeletal samples. Mean values and standard deviations of all measurements for Byblos and other Chalcolithic sites in the southern Levant overlap, while those from the Egyptian Predynastic and Early Dynastic sites diverge considerably. The small and incomplete data set (not all measurements could be made on all specimens) indicates that the values quoted may not accurately reflect the entire range of population variation at any one site. However, the data sets available demonstrate consistent differences between samples from the Levant and those from Egypt. This is manifest in cranial breath, Upper facial height and nasal height --Smith 2002
Note the relatively short nasal height and upper facial height (nasion to prosthion [click if you don't know what it means]) on Gebelein man, indicating that he conforms to the expectations for predynastic Upper Egyptians, as laid out by Smith and many others. (That is not to say that all Predynastic Upper Egyptians need to look like that, to be African, either). On the other hand, this a skull from Chalcolithic Northern Negev (note the long Upper face and nasal height), which is broadly contemporary with Gebelein man:
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^Your point? Its self-explanatory that that Gebelein man's mandible isn't properly aligned, given the misalignment of his molars and the large distance in between his ramus and his mastoid process. You're just trolling because you can't make the case that wavy hair correlates with Eurasian morphology in the Nile Valley. You've used Gebelein mummy for this purpose in the past, and you've now been schooled on the fact that he displays no anomalies that single him out.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: he displays no anomalies that single him out. [/QB]
what are the anomolies that would single somebody out?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Are you saying that you did not create a thread in the past where you've used the patches of hair on his head as an anomaly? Are you also saying that you did not read that Smith quote, that describes where Egypto-Nubians and Levantines consistently differ?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Gebelein Man also known as 'Ginger' skeleton
Gebelein Man also known as 'Ginger' mummy, British Museum
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Propensity to troll (and lie).
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: he displays no anomalies that single him out.
what are the anomolies that would single somebody out?
what are the anomolies that would single somebody out?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Phuck outta here with that ''I'm entitled to an answer'' attitude. What makes you think I have to answer to you any more than I already have with that Smith quote?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LMAOH I guess that's what you get for conversing with a troll. As if lyinass is interested in the truth and not furthering her Eurasian 'mixed-up' agenda.
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,: what about Near Eastern?
We can't even find evidence of 'Near Eastern' presence or influence in the early Delta populations. What makes you think there is any in Upper Egypt??
By the way, ancient Inerty (Gebelein) is located about 40 km south of Waset (Thebes) in deep Sa'id (south) of Egypt.
We've already explained to you that predynastic Egyptian groups such as the Badarian who likely came from the Sahara display affinities held more in common with typical Sub-Saharan "negroes" than anyone else. What makes you think the Gebelein 'Ginger' man was any different??
And Swenet is right, you have on many past occasions tried to use the hair of Ginger to make a point that he is of non-African origin.
Suffice to say, it didn't work then and it doesn't work now.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^^ I would say this guy is a possibility although Gebelein man was beleived by analysis to be 18-21 years old. When the man at left was 21 did he have that hair color? Is he 95% African or is he 53% African? I don't know. It's hard to tell by looking. But I'll take Djefruity's word for it since he probably looked at the man's DNA analysis. The man at left seems to have coarse, stiff bushy hair. It's hard to tell the quality of the hair on the mummy at right, if it's similar in texture. Could be
.
this hair on the much later Rameses II seems^^^^^ to be of a thin strand type. No problem there's dark skinned people all over Africa with this hair type they tell me
KV35 Elder Lady, thought to be Queen Tiye, wavy hair here.
^^^ lookin kind of yellow here, almost like that yellow they sometimes used for Libyans
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I like how lioness is learning and (seemingly) coming around.
Keyword seemingly. I doubt lyinass will ever come around so long as her anti-black bias prevails.
Exactly. I recant that.
Note to self: can't expect a troll to turn into a sane poster.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Queen Tiye (Elder lady K35) reconstruction
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^^ Fantasy reconstructions aside we have actual depictions of Tiye made in her life:
And we have analysis of her skull as well:
First identified as Queen Tiye The occipital bun is reminiscent of Mesolithic Nubians (see below). Sagittal plateau, rounded forehead with moderately projecting glabella; globular cranium with high vault. Protrusion of incisors, receding chin and steep mandible. Very vertical zygomatic arches and pronounced maxillary prognathism.
Perhaps a more accurate reconstruction:
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,:
^^^^ I would say this guy is a possibility although Gebelein man was beleived by analysis to be 18-21 years old. When the man at left was 21 did he have that hair color?
The hair follicles of the elderly stop producing eumelanin, hence light or grayish hair. What makes you assume that a young person's hair stays the exact same color after he dies??
quote:Is he 95% African or is he 53% African? I don't know. It's hard to tell by looking. But I'll take Djefruity's word for it since he probably looked at the man's DNA analysis.
And why must you assume an African is somehow of mixed ancestry because he does not match your preconceived stereotype in this case hair?
53% African?? I don't know how you came up with that estimate but here below is a person who is 50% African yet has kinky hair.
Barrack Obama
And I already showed your dumbass 100% Eurasians with kinky hair including indigenous tribes in Arabia.
quote:The man at left seems to have coarse, stiff bushy hair. It's hard to tell the quality of the hair on the mummy at right, if it's similar in texture. Could be
this hair on the much later Rameses II seems^^^^^ to be of a thin strand type. No problem there's dark skinned people all over Africa with this hair type they tell me
KV35 Elder Lady, thought to be Queen Tiye, wavy hair here.
African hair in general is more coarse even if it's in wavy form! I already cited evidence showing how the wavy hair form of Africans is different from that of say Europeans even having different trichonometric index range, moron! So whether the hair is picked out in bush (afro) form or layed down like Tiye's it's the same thing!
quote: ^^^ lookin kind of yellow here, almost like that yellow they sometimes used for Libyans
If you're referring to the SKIN of the mummy, again, what the hell makes you think mummified skin biochemically maintained the same complexion that it had when the body was alive??!! Note that you are only pointing out patches or areas of skin that are yellowish when most of the skin is actually dark.
My God, you are dumb as hell!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I like how lioness is learning and (seemingly) coming around.
Keyword seemingly. I doubt lyinass will ever come around so long as her anti-black bias prevails.
Exactly. I recant that.
Note to self: can't expect a troll to turn into a sane poster.
Tell me about it. Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
One problematic in all this is that we know that the AEs wore wigs over shaved heads. That's why one must be circumspect when some team of excavators(Euro-American is the norm) comes up with "findings".
The question is how sure are we that what the Euros present is accurate? The Queen Tiye sculpture has her with a wig or bunched up hair. Just a head-scratch on that one. I prefer to go with the murals and original sculptures. Look how they presented that fake bleached-out Tut as the real thing. These snake-oil artists are relentless with their BS.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Hmm, I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you saying that the instances of Egypto-Nubian mummies with wavy-straight locks are doctored? I'm really having a hard time following you, since the murals and sculptures definitely aren't uniformly saying that the Egyptians had Afros.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Indeed. Even lamin admitted that most Egyptians shaved their heads and wore wigs. Even the ancient murals show most Egyptians with afro type hair if not wigs. What 'most' Egyptians had is not the issue. The issue we are discussing comes from a relatively few mummies (out of the vast majority that were either destroyed or remain out of sight) showing wavy hair and comparing these those Nubians who exhibit the same type of hair.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
The whole hair shaving thing is not uniform across all periods or class, even during the times when it was a common practice. As for the prevalence of Afro hairstyles, by far, the most Egyptian males are depicted like this:
And this^ most definitely is not a 'fro.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Perhaps a more accurate reconstruction:
^^^^ The above is not even a reconstruction It's obviously less accurate becasue it's based on the wooden statuette rather than the mummy, idiot. It's one of a few different artistic representations you know nothing and it is merely the wooden statuette with a new set of clothes on it
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: The issue we are discussing comes from a relatively few mummies (out of the vast majority that were either destroyed or remain out of sight) showing wavy hair and comparing these those Nubians who exhibit the same type of hair. [/QB]
compare to which Nubians? I have seen no Nubian mummies with wavy hair. Where are they?
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The whole hair shaving thing is not uniform across all periods or class, even during the times when it was a common practice. As for the prevalence of Afro hairstyles, by far, the most Egyptian males are depicted like this:
And this^ most definitely is not a 'fro.
here is an example of a simplified cartoonish piece of art in a low quality photograph. It is impossble to tell the hair type or if it's a wig. here the wooden statutte of Queen Tiye:
^^she had a big afro right?
^^^^^ wrong that's a headress>
^^^^^ also note her jawline is more squarish than in the statuette
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,:
^^^^ The above is not even a reconstruction It's obviously less accurate because it's based on the wooden statuette rather than the mummy, idiot.
And what do you think the (painted) wooden statuette is based on than the living person herself, idiot?! LOL
quote:It's one of a few different artistic representations you know nothing and it is merely the wooden statuette with a new set of clothes on it.
Of course it is an artistic representation but one based on authentic artistic portraiture i.e. the painted wooden busts. Here are a few more authentic ancient portraits:
^ The features are consistent.
quote:compare to which Nubians? I have seen no Nubian mummies with wavy hair. Where are they?
LMAO B|tch, did you not read the very first page of this thread? What the hell did you think the topic of this thread is about and what data Swenet is referring to?!
quote:here is an example of a simplified cartoonish piece of art in a low quality photograph.
You seem to denigrate and/or complain about ancient Egyptian art when it portrays the Egyptians as they were (black) by calling it "cartoonish" or something else.
quote:It is impossble to tell the hair type or if it's a wig. here the wooden statuette of Queen Tiye:
^^she had a big afro right?
^^^^^ wrong that's a headress
Wrong again, worm! How many times must we tell your lying dumbass that what the bust wears is NOT a "headress" but a WIG!! There is no such thing as a round helmet like Egyptian headdress but there are Egyptian round wigs a.k.a. 'Afros'!!
quote:
^^^^^ also note her jawline is more squarish than in the statuette
Can you shut your lyinass up for a change?? *sigh*
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote: Originally posted by lioness: compare to which Nubians? I have seen no Nubian mummies with wavy hair. Where are they?
Propensity to troll.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Piece of shyt the point is that a wig can be considered a type of headress in the sense it's not the person's actual hair, buffoon.
Why are you even wasting time putting up images of Queen Tiye that don't represent her natural hair in a thread hair?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Wrong again, worm! How many times must we tell your lying dumbass that what the bust wears is NOT a "headress" but a WIG!! There is no such thing as a round helmet like Egyptian headdress but there are Egyptian round wigs a.k.a. 'Afros'!!....
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: You seem to denigrate and/or complain about ancient Egyptian art when it portrays the Egyptians as they were (black) by calling it "cartoonish" or something else.
You are part of which "we" ? All I have to do is step out of here and they'll soon turn on you. I'm the buffer
Idiot the below is a cartoon simplified figure and you just finished saying Queen Tiye is portrayed wearing a wig.
Of all the art that could be looked at this is the example?
Was he a person with an afro who wore straight hair wigs? You cant tell.
And generally didn't all kings and queens wear wigs?
Obviously not.
We've seen several mummies with hair, only some had shaved heads apparently
Nubian prince Maiherpri, and the Lady Rai,
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The whole hair shaving thing is not uniform across all periods or class, even during the times when it was a common practice. As for the prevalence of Afro hairstyles, by far, the most Egyptian males are depicted like this:
And this^ most definitely is not a 'fro.
Then what do you call that if not an afro?
^ Such is the predominant hair type among Egyptian men...
But then we have on occasion these examples:
(note the man on the left in every picture)
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote: Originally posted by lioness: compare to which Nubians? I have seen no Nubian mummies with wavy hair. Where are they?
Propensity to troll.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
wrong, propensity to raise uncomfortable questions rather than Djefruitian strokings
you dug this up from 1907
Where is the research of the past 20 years that talks about all this alleged wavy hair in Nubia?
Important question: where are these remains currently?
Obviously if this is true people from these sites must have come from differnt places (different places within Africa according to your theories)
And odd thing is that the Egyptians often (not always) portrayed Nubians as more sub saharan in features. The more sun sahran you are the less likely one would have wavy non-afro type hair, get real people, enough fantasy land
The data listed in this 1907-1908 excavation probably shocked a lot of people? I'm not certain how credible it is. This was the period of the hamitic race theories etc.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Are these wigs?
Or is it curly hair?
Or are they afros?
It's impossible to tell
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
There is no texture even indicated on these. You can't tell what the hair type is.
Are the people at right waering some king of white cloths on their heads or is it hair? If it's hair, they don't look like old men so wouldn't it be blond color if it was hair?.
Same problem, this type of art does not have enough detail to tell what the hair type is
Look at Hesire:
^^^^ It's an afro right?
Yeah but this is also Hesire, same wood panel series
-the point is you can't tell what type his natural hair was.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,: Piece of shyt the point is that a wig can be considered a type of headress in the sense it's not the person's actual hair, buffoon.
Do I sense frustration from a lyinass twit exposed for what she is? Yeah I do!
quote:Why are you even wasting time putting up images of Queen Tiye that don't represent her natural hair in a thread hair?
Actually my point wasn't about her hair so much as her face which rebuff your own sketch fantasies based on her mummified shriveled face.
quote:You are part of which "we"? All I have to do is step out of here and they'll soon turn on you. I'm the buffer
LMAOH
So you are suffering from psychotic delusion. Such is typical with all Euronut trolls. By the way, my only wish in this forum is for you to step out permanently so I and the others can be free of your annoying trolling.
quote:Idiot the below is a cartoon simplified figure and you just finished saying Queen Tiye is portrayed wearing a wig.
I know. Yet it's more than your little illustration which attempts to maker her look 'caucasian'.
quote:Of all the art that could be looked at this is the example?
Uh, Maiherpri is wearing a WIG! Remember?!LMAO Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,:
Are these wigs?
Or is it curly hair?
Or are they afros?
It's impossible to tell
Well as Swenet, pointed out such hair is the most common type seen among Egyptian males. By the way, very curly hair can produce afros as well which proves mine (and Ausar's point) that the majority of Egyptians have very curly to kinky hair.
Are you stupid? It's very likely to tell from all your posts that YES is the answer.
quote:
There is no texture even indicated on these. You can't tell what the hair type is.
I was referring to the man on the left. I know the picture is small but I recognize it from larger blown up versions I've seen in books and the man appears to have loose (straight) hair.
quote:Are the people at right wearring some king of white cloths on their heads or is it hair? If it's hair, they don't look like old men so wouldn't it be blond color if it was hair?.
Yes the other men are wearing head-cloths that is actual headdresses.
quote:Same problem, this type of art does not have enough detail to tell what the hair type is
Actually it does. Again, if there are larger versions of the pictures one can see it easily.
quote:Look at Hesire:
^^^^ It's an afro right?
Yeah but this is also Hesire, same wood panel series
-the point is you can't tell what type his natural hair was.
That Hesira is shown wearing different hairstyles may very well indicate his head is shaved and he is merely wearing wigs. You can tell that the afro wig is made from natural hair while the second wig with the lines is actually not hair at all but plant fiber. Or perhaps in your stupid case, maybe not. Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Faheem Dumbass sez: Apart from Zaharan and Swenet behind their keyboards, no one else is claiming "Blacks have straight hair". Not even the Journal of Black Studies... [Roll Eyes]
Witless dolt. You fail again. And your citation (from an article whose main "hair" reference is Mayr 1970) fails on the fact that tropical Africa has numerous micro-climes, from dry arid desert (like parts of California) to snow capped mountain, to cool high altitude cloud forest, to cool, coastal lowland. Hair of almost any variant can evolve in Africa without needing any of your beloved "wandering Caucasoids". --------------------------------
RECAP:
Ancient Egyptian hair
Across the web assorted "biodiversity" proponents, wage a 'racial war' using hair studies of ancient Egyptians to prove a "Caucasian Egypt". But in fact the hair of Africans is highly variable, debunking their simplistic claims.
The hair of Africans is highly variable, ranging from tight curls of South African Bantu, to the loose curls and straight hair of peoples of East and NE Africa, all indigenously evolved over millennia as part of Africa’s high genetic diversity. This diversity undermines and ultimately dismisses simplistic "racial" claims based on hair.
Inconsistencies of the skewed "true negro" model and definitions of African hair
Dubious assertions, double standards and outmoded racial hair claims: Czech anthropologist Strouhal's 1971 study touched on hair, and advanced the most extreme racial definitions, claiming Nubians to be white Europids overrun by later waves of Negroes, and that few Negroes appeared in Egypt until the New Kingdom. Indeed, Strouhal went so far as to argue that 'Negroes' failed to survive long in Egypt, because they were ill-adapted to its arid climate! Tell that to the Saharans, Sudanese and Nubians! Such dubious claims have been thoroughly debunked by modern scholarship, however they continue in various guises by those who attempt to use "hair" to assign race 'percents' and categories to the ancients. Attempts to define racial categories based on the ancient hair rely heavily on extreme definitions, with "Negroids" typically being defined as narrowly as possible. Everything not meeting the extreme "type" is then classified as something else, such as "Caucasian".
Kieta (1990, Studies of Crania from Northern Africa) notes that while many scholars in the field have used an extreme "true negro" definition for African peoples, few have attempted to apply the same model in reverse and define a "true white." Such racial double standards are typical of much scholarship on the ancient Nile Valley peoples. A consistent approach for example would define the straight hair in Strouhal's hair sample as an exclusive Caucasian marker (10 out of 49 or approximately 20%) and make the rest (wavy and curled) hybrid or negro, at >80%. Assorted writers who support the Aryan race percent model however, are careful to avoid such consistency and typically only run the comparison one way.
QUOTE: "Strouhal (1971) microscopically examined some hair which had been preserved on a Badarian skull. The analysis was interpreted as suggesting a stereotypical tropical African-European hybrid (mulatto). However this hair is grossly no different from that of Fulani, some Kanuri, or Somali and does not require a gene flow explanation any more than curly hair in Greece necessarily does. Extremely "wooly" hair is not the only kind native to tropical Africa.." (S. O. Y. Keita. (1993). "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54)
Disturbing attempts to use hair to prove race theories: Fletcher (2002) in Egyptian Hair and Wigs, gives an example of what she calls "disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender" involving 1800s European researcher F. Petrie, who sometimes sought to use excavation reports to prove his theories of Aegean settlers flowing into Egypt. Such disturbing attempts continue today in the use of hair for race category or percentage claims involving the ancient peoples, such as the "racial" analysis seen on several Internet blogs and websites, some thinly disguised fronts for neo-nazi groups or sympathizers.
Hair studies touted by "heriditarian" race proponents actually applied a stereotyped "true negro" model and used late period samples of Egypt, after the coming of Greeks, Hyskos, etc as "representative" excluding the previous 2500 years of ancient civilization. A study of the hair of Egyptian mummies by Czech anthropologists Titlbachova and Titllbach (1977) (reported in Strouhal 1977) using only late period samples found a wide range of hair in mummies. Of the 14 samples, only 4 were from the south of Egypt, and none of the 14 samples were earlier than the 18th Dynasty. Essentially the previous 2,000 years + of Egyptain civilization and peopling are not represented. Only the narrowest definition is used to identify 'true negro' types'. All other intermediate types were deemed 'non-negroid.' If a similar procedure is used in reverse and designates only straight hair as a marker of a European, then only 4 out of 14 or 29% of the samples can be deemed "Caucasoid." Below is a breakdown of the Czech data:
Sample# 5- 18th-21st dynasties- Deir el medina- curly Sample# 8- 21st-25th dynasties- hair looks straight Sample# 11- Late to Greek Period- hair partly wavy Sample# 18- Late period Egypt- hair fine diameter Sample# 19- Greek period- wavy hair Sample# 29- 18-21st Dynasties- Deir El Medina- hair shape unascertainable - south Sample# 31- 18-21st dynasties- Deir El Median- wavy to curly - south Sample# 33- 21st-25th dynasties- appears straight Sample# 34- 21st-25th dynasties- shape difficult to determine Sample# 35- 21st-25th dynasties- wavy shape Sample# 40- 21-25th Dynasties- hair curly, Sample# 44- 21-25th Dynasties- appears straight Sample# 45- 21-25th Dynasties- appears wavy Sample# 46- Kharga Oasis- 4th-5th centuries AD
Using modern technology, the same Aryan Race models are undercut with the data actually showing that Egyptians group closer to Africans than vaunted white Nordics.
------------ "Nordic hair measurements"
Neo-Nazis and sympathizers tout the work of German researcher Pruner-Bey in the 1800s (yes they actually go back this far), which derived racial indexes of hair including Negroes, Egyptians and Germans. Germanic hair is closer to that of the Egyptians they assert. But is it as they claim?
(Data of Bruner-Bey 1864- 'On human hair as a race character') - Negroid index: 57.40 - Egyptian index: 69.94 - White Germans: 66.33 Neo-Nazi conclusion: White German Nordics are 'closer' to Egyptians
Modern data using electron microscopes- Conti-Fuhrman & Massa (1972). Massa and Masali (1980)
Compare to Pruner Bey's 1864 data: - Negroid index: 57.40 - Egyptian index: 60.02 (modern electron microscope data)
White Germans: 66.33 ___________________________________________________ ___________________________ Conclusion using modern microscope data: Negroes much ‘closer’ to Egyptians than Nordics ___________________________________________________ __________________________________________________
Using hair for race identification as older research does can be shaky, but even when used, it undercuts ‘Aryan” clams as shown above.
Fletcher 2002 decries “"disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender..” Other credible scientists note:
"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories. Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable". --Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2
Environmental factors can influence hair color, and the Egyptians routinely placed hair from different sources in mummy wrappings, making claims of "Nordic-haired" or "white" Egyptians dubious.
Mummification practices and dyeing of hair. Hair studies of mummies note that color is often influenced by environmental factors at burial sites. Brothwell and Spearman (1963) point out that reddish-brown ancient color hair is usually the result of partial oxidation of the melanin pigment. Other causes of hair color "blonding" involve bleaching, caused by the alkaline in the mummification process. Color also varies due to the Egyptian practice of dyeing hair with henna. Other samples show individuals lightening the hair using vegetable colorants. Thus variations in hair color among mummies do not necessarily suggest the presence of blond or red-haired Europeans or Near Easterners flitting about Egypt before being mummified, but the influence of environmental factors.
Egyptian practice of putting locks of hair in mummy wrappings. Racial analysis is also made problematic by the Egyptian practice of burying hair, in many "votive or funerary deposits buried separately from the body, a practice found from Predynastic to Roman times despite its frequent omission from excavation reports." (Fletcher 2002) In examining hair samples Fletcher (2004) notes that care is needed to determine what is natural scalp hair, versus hair from a wig, versus hair extensions to natural locks. Tracking the exact source of hair is also critical since the Egyptians were known to have placed locks of hair from different sources among mummy wrappings. (The Search for Nefertiti, By Joann Fletcher, HarperCollins, 2004, p. 93-94, 96)
Egyptians shaved much of their natural hair off and used wigs extensively as covering, obtaining much of the hair for wigs through trade. Discoveries" of "Aryan" or 'Nordic" hair are thus hardly 'proof' of incoming Caucasoids, but may be simply hair purchased from some source and made into a wig. This is much less dramatic than the exciting picture of inflowing 'Aryan' hordes.
The ancient Egyptians shaved off much of their own natural hair as a matter of personal hygiene and custom, and wore wigs in public. According to the Encyclopedia of body adornment (Margo DeMello, 2007, Greenwood Publishing Group, p. 101), "Boys and girls until puberty wore their hair shaved except for a side locl left on the side of their head. Many adults- both men and women- also shaved their hair as a way of coping with heat and lice. However, adults did not go about bald, and instead wore wigs in public and in private.. Wigs were initially worn by the elites, but later worn by women of all classes.."
The widespread use of wigs in ancient Egypt thus complicates and contradicts attempts at 'racial' analysis. Fletcher (2002) shows that many Egyptian wigs have been found with what is defined as straighter 'cynotrichous' hair. This however is hardly a marker of massive European or Near Eastern presence or admixture. Fletcher notes that the Egyptians often eschewed their own personal hair, shaving carefully and using wigs widely. The hair for these wigs was often obtained through trade. Indeed -quote - "hair itself being a valuable commodity ranked alongside gold and incense in account lists from the town of Kahun."
Egyptian trading links with other regions is well known, and a commodity like straighter 'cynotrichous' hair could have been easily obtained via the Sahara, Levant, the Maghreb, Mediterranean contacts, or even the hair of Asiatic war captives or casualties from Egypt's numerous conflicts. There is little need to postulate mass influxes of European admixtures or populations to account for hair types in wigs. The limb proportion studies of the ancient Egyptians showing them to be much more related to tropical types than to Europids, is further demonstration of the fallacy of using hair as 'proof' of a 'Aryan' or predominantly European admixed Egypt.
Nubian wigs and wigs in Egypt
Such exchanges or use of hair appear elsewhere in the Nile valley. Tomb finds show Nubians themselves wearing wigs of straight hair. But one Nubian from the Royal valley, of the 12th century, named Maherpra, was found to be wearing a wig himself, made up of tightly curled 'negroid' hair, on top of his natural covering (Fletcher 2002). The so-called "Nubian wig" also appears in Egyptian art relief's depicting daily life, a stylistic arrangement thought to imitate those found in southern Egypt or Nubia. Such wigs appear to have been popular with both Egyptians and Nubians. Fletcher 2004 notes that the famous queen Nefertiti made frequent use of the Nubian wig: "Nefertiti and her daughter seem to have set a trend for wearing the Nubian wig.. a coiffure first worn by Nubian mercenaries and clearly associated with the military." A detail of a wall scene in Theban tomb TT.55 shows the queen wearing the Nubian wig. Infantrymen from the Nubia. Note both bow and battle-axe carried into combat.
Hair studies of Nubians show built-in African genetic variability
Hair studies of Nubians have also been undertaken. One study at Semna, in Nubia (Daniel Hrdy 1978- Analysis of Hair Samples of Mummies from Semna South, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, (1978) 49: 277-262), found curling patterns intermediate between Northwest European and African samples. The X-group, especially males, showed more African elements than the Meroitic in the curling variables. Crimping and curvature data patterned in a northwest Europe direction. These data plots however do not necessarily indicate race admixture or percentages, or the presence of European migrants or colonists (see Keita 2005 below), but rather a data pattern of variation in how hair curls, and native African diversity which cases substantial overlap with non-African groups. This is a routine occurrence within human groups.
Africa has the highest phenotypic variation, just as it has the highest geentic variation- accommodating a wide range of features for its peoples without the need for any "race mix: Relethford (2001) shows that ".. methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies." (Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5, October 2001, pp. 629-636) Hanihara 2003 notes that [significant] "..intraregional diversity are present in Subsaharan Africans.." While ancient Egypt had gene flow in various eras, hair variations easily fall under this pattern of built-in, indigenous diversity, as well as the above noted cultural practice of using wigs with hair from different places obtained through trade.
Among Europeans for example, some people have curlier hair and some have straighter hair than others. Various peoples of East and West Africa also have narrow noses, which are different from other peoples elsewhere in Africa, nevertheless they still remain Africans. DNA studies also note greater variation within selected populations that without. Since Africa has the highest genetic diversity in the world, such routine variation in characteristics such as hair need not indicate any racial percentage or admixture, but simply part of the built-in genetic diversity of the ancient peoples on the continent. Indeed, the Semna study author notes that blondism, especially in young children, is common in many dark-haired populations (e.g., Australian, Melanesian), and is still found in some Nubian villages. As regards hair color variation, reddish type hair is associated with the presence of pheomelanin, which can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well. See "Rameses" below. Albinism is another source of red hair.
Dubious attempts at 'racial analysis' using Nubian hair and crania. Assorted supporters of the stereotypical Aryan 'race' model attempt to use hair to argue for a predominantly 'white' Nubia. But as noted above, such attempts are dubious given built-in African genetic diversity. Often 'racial' hair claims attempt to link on with cranial studies purporting to match ancient Nubians with Swedes, Frenchmen, etc. But such claims are also dubious. In a detailed analysis of the Fordisc computer program used to put forward such claims, Williams, Armelagos, et al. (2005) found that the program created ludicrous "matches" between the ancient Nubian crania and peoples from Hungary, Japan, Easter Island and a host of others in far-flung regions! Their conclusion was that the diversity of human populations in the databank explained such wide ranging matches. Such objective mainstream analyses debunk obsolete and improbable claims of 'racial' migrations of alleged Frenchman, Hungarians, or other whites into ancient Nubia, or equally improbable racial 'percentages' supposedly quantifying such claims. (Frank l'engle Williams, Robert L. Belcher, and George J . Armelagos, "Forensic Misclassification of Ancient Nubian Crania: Implications for Assumptions about Human Variation," Current Anthropology, volume 46 (2005), pages 340-346)
Alleged massive influx of Europeans and Middle Easterners to give the ancient peoples hair variation did not happen. Such variation was already in place as part of Africa' built in genetic and phenotypic diversity. As regards diameter, the average diameter of the Semna sample was close to both the Northwest European and East African samples. This again suggests a range of built-in African indigenous variability, and calls into questions various migration theories to the Nile Valley. One study for example (Keita 2005) tested the model of C. Loring Brace (1993) as to the notion of incoming European migrants replacing indigenous peoples of the Nile Valley. Brace's work had also suggested a relationship between northwest Europeans such as Scandanavians and African peoples of the Horn. Data analysis failed to support this model, instead clustering samples much closer to African series than to Europeans. Keita concluded that similarities between African data in his survey (skulls, etc) and non-Africans was not due to gene flow, but a subset of built-in African variability.
Ancient Egyptians cluster much closer to other Egyptians and Nubians. A later study by Brace, (Brace 2005- The questionable contribution..) groups ancient Egyptian populations like the Naqada closer to Nubians and Somalis than European, Mediterranean or Middle Eastern populations, and places various Nubians samples closer to Tanzanian, Dahomeian, and Congoid data points than to Europeans and Middle easterners. The limb proportion studies of Zakrzewski (2003) (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.) showing the tropical body plan of the ancient Egyptians also undercuts theories of inflowing European or near Eastern colonists, or the 'native Europid' model of Strouhal (1971).
The yellowish-red-hair of Rameses: proof of a Nordic Egypt?
Red hair itself is within the range of African diversity or that of dark-skinned peoples. Native black Australoids for example routinely produce blonde hair:
Detailed microscopic analysis during the 1980s (Balout 1985) identified some of the hair of Egyptian Pharoah Rameses II as being a yellowish-red. Such a finding should not be surprising given the wide range of physical variability in Africa, the most genetically diverse region on earth, out of which flowed other population groups. Indeed, blondism and various other hair shades are not unknown in East Africa or Nubia, particularly in children, nor are such hair color variants uncommon in dark-haired or dark skinned populations like the Australians. (Hrdy 1978) Given the range of genetic variability in Africa, a red-haired Rameses is hardly unusual. Rameses' reign, in the 19th Dynasty, came over 1,500 years after the Egyptian state had been established, and after the Hyskos interlude. Such latecomers to Egypt, like the Hyskos, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs etc would add their own genetic strands to the nation’s mix. Whatever the blend of genes that occurred with Rameses, his hair offers little supposed "proof" of a "white" or "Nordic" Egypt. If anything, X-rays of the royal mummies from earlier Dynasties by mainstream scientists show that the Egyptians pharaohs and other royals had varied 'Negroid' leanings. See X-Rays of the Royal mummies here, or here.
Pheomelanin and Rameses- Dark haired populations routinely produce light hair. Pheomelanin is found in light and dark-haired populations: The finding of Rameses “red” hair also deserves further scrutiny. The analysis found evidence of dyeing to make the hair yellowish-red, but some elements were untouched by the dye. These elements of yellowish-red hair in Balout’s study, were established on the basis of the presence of pheomelanin, a red-brown polymeric pigment in the skin and hair of humans. However, pheomelanin can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well, which gives it a reddish hue. Most natural melanins contain sulfur, which is typically associated with pheomelanin. In scientific tests of melanin, black hair contained as much as 5% sulfur, 3% lower than the 8.8% found in Irish red hair, but exceeding the 2.3% found in Scandinavian blond hair. (Jolles, et al. 1996) Thus the yellowish-red hair discovered on Rameses is well within the range of human variation for dark haired people, whatever the exact gene combination that led to the condition.
Rameses hair was not a typical European red, but yellowish-red, within African variation. It was also not ultra straight, further undermining claims of "Nordic" influence. Somalians and Ethiopians are SUB-SAHARANS and they routinely produce straight-haired people without the need for any "race mix" to explain why. The analysis on Rameses also did not show classic "European" red hair but hair of a light red to yellowish tinge. Black haired or dark-skinned populations are quite capable of producing such yellowish-red color variants on their own, as can be seen in today's east and northeast Africa (see child's photo above). Nor is such color variation unusual to Africa. Native dark-skinned populations in Australia, routinely produce people with blond or reddish hair. As noted above, ultra diverse Africa is the original source of such variation.
The analysis also found the hair to be cymotrich or wavy, again a characteristic quite within the range of overall African or Nile valley physical and genetic diversity. A "pure" Nordic type of straight hair was thus not established for Rameses. Hence the notion of white Europeans or red-headed Caucasoids from other areas flowing into ancient Egypt to add hair variation, particularly the early centuries of the dynastic state is unlikely. Such flows may have occurred most heavily in the Greek and Roman era but say nothing about the thousands of years preceding. The presence of pheomelanin conditions or other genetic combinations also explains how the different hair used in Egyptian wigs could vary in color, aside from environmental oxidation, bleaching and dyeing.
Red hair is rare worldwide, and history shows little evidence of Northern Europeans or "Nordics" sweeping into Egypt to give the natives a bit of hair coloring or variation. Most red hair is found in northern and western Europe, especially in the British Isles, and even then it appears in minor frequencies in Europe- some 4% of the population. It is unlikely such populations had any major contact or influence in the ancient Nile Valley. As noted above, red hair is comparatively rare in the world’s populations and pheomelanin conditions are found in dark-haired populations, and thus is well within the range of variation from the Sahara, East Africa and the Nile valley. “White Aryan” theories of Egypt are seen in the works of HFK Gunther (1927), Archibald Sayce (1925) and Raymond Dart (1939), and still find traction on a number of 'Aryan', neo-nazi and "race" websites and blogs which purport to show a "white Nordic Egypt" using Rameses' "red" hair as an example. Today's scientific research however, has debunked these dubious views, showing that red hair, while not common world wide, is a well known variant within human populations, even those with dark hair.
Straight or curly hair is also routine among sub-Saharans like Somalians, who are firmly part of the East African populations. As regards Somalians for example, Somali DNA overwhelmingly links much more heavily with other Africans including Kenyans & Ethiopians (85%), than with Europeans & Middle Easterners. (15%) On Y-chromosome markers (E3b1), Somalis (77%) and other African populations dwarf small European (5.1%) or Middle Eastern (6.3%) frequencies. “The data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population..” (Sanchez et al., High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages.. in Somali males (2005)
As one mainstream researcher notes about the dubious value of "racial" hair analysis:
"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories. Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable". --Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2
In numerous studies of mummies, alleged "red" hair turns out to be affected by aging, chemical oxidation, dyeing and other processes having nothing to do with red-headed visitors, migrants, slaves or invaders. Red hair is rare worldwide, occurring mostly in Northern EUrope and even then, only within less that 9% of northern populations
"The current colour of the hair is brown with reddish highlights, a common observation on many mummies, and probably originated through post-mortem alteration (Aufderheide, 2003; Wilson et al., 2001). Sun-exposure, bacterial reaction, and embalming methods are some of the factors that may affect the original hair colour. As a result, hair that was originally black or brown exhibits reddish, orange or even blond colour due to post mortem alterations. All human hair, however, does not turn red over archaeological time-scales (Wilson, 2001). Based on the histological analysis of the unstained hair samples, the limited fungal influence, and the macroscopic view, it can be assumed that the original hair colour was brown. Similar cases of hair preservation have been reported in studies of both mummified and non-mummified human remains (Aufderheide, 2003; Brothwell and Dobney, 1986; Lubec et al., 1987; White, 1993; Wilson et al., 2002, 2007b)."
--C. Papageorgopoulou et al. 2008. Indications of embalming in Roman Greece by physical, chemical and histological analysis. Journal of Archaeological Science
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
The corkscrew curls happen to be strikingly similar to those of this Afar man...
..who also happens to have similar facial features as Seti, including nose.
^^^ you can see that the piece is not lit with a spotlight here and is subject to the changing sunlight conditions, You can see how the sunlight in this moment is coming from behind leaving the piece in shadow. You are at it agiain with the shadows. You take anything be it a piece of art or human beings, find the darkest version of it on the internet and then say the darkest is the "real" version becuase you think people will approve of you more for it. The Shadow strikes again, True Blackism
You can see the man is much darker than even your poorly lit version of Seti I. As is typical he has some reddish qualities to his brown skin. This man does not he's pure dark brown. But the skin color doesn't matter. You get a point for showing the corkscrew in close up. I assume due to the mummy that's a wig, a wig with micro braids of some kind
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Then what do you call that if not an afro?
I don't know what they are, but they are definitely not 'fros. They look more like sassoons/bob hairstyles. Look at the Ta-Seti and Egyptian soldier statuettes, they have the exact same cut as the ones you posted on those murals. The only one that genuinly looks like an afro is that pic of Hesire. You can see his ear and his (what seems to be a) 'fro is spherical in shape.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: you dug this up from 1907
Where is the research of the past 20 years that talks about all this alleged wavy hair in Nubia?
Important question: where are these remains currently?
You're a certified troll. The Nubian mummy quotes I posted were from two different sources (Smith et al and Morton), and the Meroitic paper that has been discussed on ES many times is from a third source. Then, to top it all off, your dumbass airhead posted a fourth one, in this very thread, not too long ago. I also posted that picture of that queen from Pwenet. Get outta my face, lyingass, super flip flopping, three second memory having, I'll say anything to get attention ass supertroll.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Then what do you call that if not an afro?
I don't know what they are, but they are definitely not 'fros. They look more like sassoons/bob hairstyles. Look at the Ta-Seti and Egyptian soldier statuettes, they have the exact same cut as the ones you posted on those murals. The only one that genuinly looks like an afro is that pic of Hesire. You can see his ear and his (what seems to be a) 'fro is spherical in shape.
oh snap, Sweetnet flushed Djefruti down the toilet
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
^ all three of you are the same multiple account loser.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^Where did they teach you how to discern the identity of posters, the same place where you got your (imaginary) PhD in psychology?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^^ did that sound realistic?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Super troll, why are you talking to me?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^Where did they teach you how to discern the identity of posters, the same place where you got your (imaginary) PhD in psychology?
Where did they teach you to read? LOL!!!
Oh come on Mary, not because we found out you're not a geneticist. Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Super trolls are on ignore.
Posted by HabariTess (Member # 19629) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Then what do you call that if not an afro?
I don't know what they are, but they are definitely not 'fros. They look more like sassoons/bob hairstyles. Look at the Ta-Seti and Egyptian soldier statuettes, they have the exact same cut as the ones you posted on those murals. The only one that genuinly looks like an afro is that pic of Hesire. You can see his ear and his (what seems to be a) 'fro is spherical in shape.
I disagree with that observation. Out of all the hair styles/textures out there, they resemble a short fro the most. I'm an artist and I notice the Egyptians drew very simplified versions of people, hair included. If I were to create a simplified black character with a short afro,what the Egyptians depicted would be how the character would have look. You say that Hesire is the only one that look like he has an afro. Hesire hair is actually drawn with the same way as the picture you posted that you said did not look like an afro. The only difference is that Hesire is drawn with a visible ear, which means his hair is obviously growing up and not down and which it would have covered the ears. The pictures of average Egyptians are drawn without ears because the attention to detail for them was less needed.
Notice the guy on the right that Djehuti just posted with the very obvious afro next to the guy with the obvious wig. No ears.
[IMG][/IMG]
I have to say though, what kind of hair the general Ancient Egyptians have is still an on going mystery to me, though I'm leaning towards them having curly to kinky hair. I have no problem with believing that they had straight to wavy hair, but some things just don't add up though. I remember you saying Swenet how many North African populations have straight to wavy hair and that it would not have been so if the African population in which many of them shared blood, did not also possess such hair, because if you look at many admixed populations with Africans with kinky hair, you will see kinky hair naturally pop up in those populations. With that said, many present day Egyptians do share that curly to kinky hair that many admixed Afro Americans have, so doesn't that suggest that the Ancient Egyptians also shared that hair texture? If not, where did the kinky hair come from in modern Egyptians. If Ausar, an Egyptian himself, also claim that wavy and straight hair isn't common among Egyptians today, isn't that even more proof of a curly to kinky Ancient Egypt? Also, what of the chemicals that was said to straighten hair during the mummification process? If that is so than how do we know of the pictures of the mummies we have now is their natural hair texture? When I look at the mummified Queen Tiye, her hair looks naturally wavy, or is the change that the hair went through so effective that it just looks really natural? I also find it interested how she is depicted in the art. Nothing points to her having such long, wavy hair, or did she just kept it covered all the time? Most of the foreigners who saw the Ancient Egyptians did describe them having hair of curly or wooly quality, which adds on to the side of them having curly to kinky hair overall. Also, the site Djehuti just posted also supports a curly to kinky Ancient Egyptian population.
quote:A team of Italian anthropologists published their research in the Journal of Human Evolution in 1972 and 1980. They measured two samples consisting of 26 individuals from pre-dynastic, 12th dynasty and 18th dynasty mummies. They produced a mean index of 66.50.
The overall average of all four sets of ancient Egyptian hair samples was 60.02. Sounds familiar . . ., just check the table!
^^^ you can see that the piece is not lit with a spotlight here and is subject to the changing sunlight conditions, You can see how the sunlight in this moment is coming from behind leaving the piece in shadow. You are at it again with the shadows. You take anything be it a piece of art or human beings, find the darkest version of it on the internet and then say the darkest is the "real" version becuase you think people will approve of you more for it. The Shadow strikes again, True Blackism
You can see the man is much darker than even your poorly lit version of Seti I. As is typical he has some reddish qualities to his brown skin. This man does not he's pure dark brown. But the skin color doesn't matter. You get a point for showing the corkscrew in close up. I assume due to the mummy that's a wig, a wig with micro braids of some kind
LMAOH @ this dumb lying b|tch talking about "shadows" and poor lighting! I just posted a picture with decent lighting to show that Seti is not as reddish or even light reddish from your distorted version!
^ One with decent functioning eyes can see the traces of dark brown paint around his face and arms.
Even the picture YOU posted above shows dark brown color around the legs, feet, and arms of his wife!
You tried to pull off the same lyinass trick with Seti's grandson Ramses II
By the way, here is another picture of Seti I
GTFOH and back into the shadows of your brothel where you belong! Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
Wait...So both Modern/Ancient Egyptians don't really have straight hair?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I don't know what they are, but they are definitely not 'fros. They look more like sassoons/bob hairstyles. Look at the Ta-Seti and Egyptian soldier statuettes, they have the exact same cut as the ones you posted on those murals. The only one that genuinly looks like an afro is that pic of Hesire. You can see his ear and his (what seems to be a) 'fro is spherical in shape.
You actually think the following to be like that of the Mary J. Blige hairstyle you linked??
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: You actually think the following to be like that of the Mary J. Blige hairstyle you linked??
Yep. You can create the exact same hairstyle with braids.
Its basically just a variation of that^, so that you get this:
Its not an afro
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I don't know what they are, but they are definitely not 'fros. They look more like sassoons/bob hairstyles. Look at the Ta-Seti and Egyptian soldier statuettes, they have the exact same cut as the ones you posted on those murals. The only one that genuinly looks like an afro is that pic of Hesire. You can see his ear and his (what seems to be a) 'fro is spherical in shape.
You actually think the following to be like that of the Mary J. Blige hairstyle you linked??
^^^Those look like their wearing wigs.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Wait...So both Modern/Ancient Egyptians don't really have straight hair?
According to Ausar (an Egyptian) many 'Arab' Egyptians and the vast majority of non-Arab indigenous Egyptians have very curly to kinky hair to the point that if they let their hair grow out, they get afros. Even many Egyptian women use hot combs and chemicals to relax their hair.
Modern Egyptians
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Wait...So both Modern/Ancient Egyptians don't really have straight hair?
According to Ausar (an Egyptian) many 'Arab' Egyptians and the vast majority of non-Arab indigenous Egyptians have very curly to kinky hair to the point that if they let their hair grow out, they get afros. Even many Egyptian women use hot combs and chemicals to relax their hair.
This is very interesting...When my sister lived in Egypt. She did say a lot of Egyptians identified as black and looked similar to regular North East Africans. But she never said almost all the Egyptians had curly to kinky. Man I have been educated.
Do you think the Egyptian government only shows 'certain' Egyptians to the western world?
Posted by HabariTess (Member # 19629) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: You actually think the following to be like that of the Mary J. Blige hairstyle you linked??
Yep. You can create the exact same hairstyle with braids.
Its basically just a variation of that^, so that you get this:
Its not an afro
Um, that still could very well be an afro.
[IMG][/IMG]
Which one does that look closer to? That Bob of yours would look very different frontal view by the way. It would be very thin on the sides being that the hair is straight and thin and not thick. The frontal view of the Egyptian man shows thickness on the sides.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Yep. You can create the exact same hairstyle with braids.
^ Looks to me like an afro that's been styled to look 'bobbed'.
Afar men
quote:Its basically just a variation of that^, so that you get this:
Its not an afro
^ The above picture of Ahmose I reminds me of a hairstyle found among East African nomads who apply butter or animal fat to their hair and then style the hair into a braided like pattern.
Again, Afar.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote: Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Looks to me like an afro that's been styled to look 'bobbed'
See my reply below:
quote: Originally posted by HabariTess: I disagree with that observation. Out of all the hair styles/textures out there, they resemble a short fro the most. I'm an artist and I notice the Egyptians drew very simplified versions of people, hair included. If I were to create a simplified black character with a short afro,what the Egyptians depicted would be how the character would have look. You say that Hesire is the only one that look like he has an afro. Hesire hair is actually drawn with the same way as the picture you posted that you said did not look like an afro.
Hey Tess. yes, I agree, the difference is slight. What I'm basing it on is the spherical shape of his hair. Its round. If you look at some of the other examples, their hair extends downward towards the bottom and the hair on top of their head is short. That is inconsistent with Afros. Another thing that makes it inconsistent with Afros, and more consistent with a bob hairstyle, is the fact that this hairstyle always has the same height on the top of their head, while their hair in their neck varies; it can be long, short, etc. Compare:
quote:I have no problem with believing that they had straight to wavy hair, but some things just don't add up though. I remember you saying Swenet how many North African populations have straight to wavy hair and that it would not have been so if the African population in which many of them shared blood, did not also possess such hair, because if you look at many admixed populations with Africans with kinky hair, you will see kinky hair naturally pop up in those populations.
Yes, I have said that in the past, but I no longer subscribe to that. I no longer believe that the people in the Maghreb are ~50% African. This is based on haplogroup analysis, but ancestry proportions in haplogroup analysis aren't necessarily reflective of ancestry proportions in the overall genome.
quote:With that said, many present day Egyptians do share that curly to kinky hair that many admixed Afro Americans have, so doesn't that suggest that the Ancient Egyptians also shared that hair texture?
Aside from Eurasian contributions, Egyptians also have received admixture from Sub-Saharan Africans in recent times, primarily during the slave trade. Some of what you're describing is because of this, some of it is simply because no population is ever 100% wavy-straight, not even Europeans. Almost all populations have individuals with curly hair.
quote:With that said, many present day Egyptians do share that curly to kinky hair that many admixed Afro Americans have, so doesn't that suggest that the Ancient Egyptians also shared that hair texture?
Ausar himself will tell you that he has a hair study of Ancient Egyptians that are inconsistent with a high prevalence of kinky/curly hair.
quote:Also, the site Djehuti just posted also supports a curly to kinky Ancient Egyptian population.
This is simply not true. The authors of that article created a dubious average by combining all papers. The picked a single and rare curly hair (i.e., index of Badarian sample with a cross section of 35%), and used it to bog down the average, which consisted overall of numerically much more predominant wavy hairs. That's not how you make an average.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by HabariTess: I have to say though, what kind of hair the general Ancient Egyptians have is still an on going mystery to me, though I'm leaning towards them having curly to kinky hair. I have no problem with believing that they had straight to wavy hair, but some things just don't add up though. I remember you saying Swenet how many North African populations have straight to wavy hair and that it would not have been so if the African population in which many of them shared blood, did not also possess such hair, because if you look at many admixed populations with Africans with kinky hair, you will see kinky hair naturally pop up in those populations. With that said, many present day Egyptians do share that curly to kinky hair that many admixed Afro Americans have, so doesn't that suggest that the Ancient Egyptians also shared that hair texture? If not, where did the kinky hair come from in modern Egyptians. If Ausar, an Egyptian himself, also claim that wavy and straight hair isn't common among Egyptians today, isn't that even more proof of a curly to kinky Ancient Egypt? Also, what of the chemicals that was said to straighten hair during the mummification process? If that is so than how do we know of the pictures of the mummies we have now is their natural hair texture? When I look at the mummified Queen Tiye, her hair looks naturally wavy, or is the change that the hair went through so effective that it just looks really natural? I also find it interested how she is depicted in the art. Nothing points to her having such long, wavy hair, or did she just kept it covered all the time? Most of the foreigners who saw the Ancient Egyptians did describe them having hair of curly or wooly quality, which adds on to the side of them having curly to kinky hair overall. Also, the site Djehuti just posted also supports a curly to kinky Ancient Egyptian population.
In the deep dermis is an acutely curved hair follicle suggesting formation of a kinky hair shaft.---Thomas Chapel et al, "Histologic findings in mummified skin", 1981
Admittedly it's only one mummy, but the fact that this formative hair shaft was found embedded in the epidermis, and therefore protected from the post-mortem environment, makes me think it might give us clues.
Posted by HabariTess (Member # 19629) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote: Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Looks to me like an afro that's been styled to look 'bobbed'
See my reply below:
quote: Originally posted by HabariTess: I disagree with that observation. Out of all the hair styles/textures out there, they resemble a short fro the most. I'm an artist and I notice the Egyptians drew very simplified versions of people, hair included. If I were to create a simplified black character with a short afro,what the Egyptians depicted would be how the character would have look. You say that Hesire is the only one that look like he has an afro. Hesire hair is actually drawn with the same way as the picture you posted that you said did not look like an afro.
Hey Tess. yes, I agree, the difference is slight. What I'm basing it on is the spherical shape of his hair. Its round. If you look at some of the other examples, their hair extends downward towards the bottom and the hair on top of their head is short. That is inconsistent with Afros. Another thing that makes it inconsistent with Afros, and more with a bob hairstyle, is the fact that this hairstyle is always the same on the top of their head, while it varies around the back of their head. It can be long, short, etc. Compare:
I would not have classified what you posted as afros, but I doubt it is their real hair. In fact, it doesn't even look like hair. Notice what is sticking out of the ends of the hair, it may very well be some sort of head cover.
Another reason why I doubt the Ancient Egyptians had straight to wavy hair is because how they treat their hair is unlike what I've read from other straighter hair populations. Since when have straighter hair populations used wigs on a daily bases? I can see kinky hair people shaving their heads and preferring to maintain wigs just because maintenance of such hair types is difficult. In fact, we do it today.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^You're glossing over the reason why they generally cut their hair (lices and hygiene), and you're also glossing over the thousands of images where those lines you mention are absent, but the exact same hair styles are depicted.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric:
quote:Originally posted by HabariTess: I have to say though, what kind of hair the general Ancient Egyptians have is still an on going mystery to me, though I'm leaning towards them having curly to kinky hair. I have no problem with believing that they had straight to wavy hair, but some things just don't add up though. I remember you saying Swenet how many North African populations have straight to wavy hair and that it would not have been so if the African population in which many of them shared blood, did not also possess such hair, because if you look at many admixed populations with Africans with kinky hair, you will see kinky hair naturally pop up in those populations. With that said, many present day Egyptians do share that curly to kinky hair that many admixed Afro Americans have, so doesn't that suggest that the Ancient Egyptians also shared that hair texture? If not, where did the kinky hair come from in modern Egyptians. If Ausar, an Egyptian himself, also claim that wavy and straight hair isn't common among Egyptians today, isn't that even more proof of a curly to kinky Ancient Egypt? Also, what of the chemicals that was said to straighten hair during the mummification process? If that is so than how do we know of the pictures of the mummies we have now is their natural hair texture? When I look at the mummified Queen Tiye, her hair looks naturally wavy, or is the change that the hair went through so effective that it just looks really natural? I also find it interested how she is depicted in the art. Nothing points to her having such long, wavy hair, or did she just kept it covered all the time? Most of the foreigners who saw the Ancient Egyptians did describe them having hair of curly or wooly quality, which adds on to the side of them having curly to kinky hair overall. Also, the site Djehuti just posted also supports a curly to kinky Ancient Egyptian population.
In the deep dermis is an acutely curved hair follicle suggesting formation of a kinky hair shaft.---Thomas Chapel et al, "Histologic findings in mummified skin", 1981
Admittedly it's only one mummy, but the fact that this formative hair shaft was found embedded in the epidermis, and therefore protected from the post-mortem environment, makes me think it might give us clues.
If you look at the Egyptian hair studies, those kinky hairs (and therefore, hair follicles) are represented in almost all the studies. Therefore, kinky hair shafts are not an anomaly. There is no 'clue' or 'mystery' that needs to be solved, because there is no a priori evidence that there was a high prevalence of kinky hair among Ancient Egyptians in the first place. You're looking for clues to the contrary when all available evidence says it was simply the native variation. You guys seem to be more driven by pre-conceived notions about what Africans ought to look like than concrete red flags that warrant suspicion. This is simply another True Negro approach, especially since we've already discussed populations whose paternal lineages come from the Egyptian region (Somalis) with way more wavy-straight hair than is expected from their Eurasian ancestry (i.e., Ethiopians have much curlier hair even though they have more Eurasian ancestry than Somalis). Kinky hair is clearly depicted when it is depicted in Ancient Egypt, and by far most depictions of Ancient Egyptian hair simply don't look like that (spherical in shape and with hair coils depicted):
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^You're glossing over the reason why they generally cut their hair (lices and hygiene), and you're also glossing over the thousands of images where those lines you mention are absent, but the exact same hair styles are depicted.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric:
In the deep dermis is an acutely curved hair follicle suggesting formation of a kinky hair shaft.---Thomas Chapel et al, "Histologic findings in mummified skin", 1981
Admittedly it's only one mummy, but the fact that this formative hair shaft was found embedded in the epidermis, and therefore protected from the post-mortem environment, makes me think it might give us clues.
If you look at the Egyptian hair studies, those hairs (and therefore, hair follicles) are represented in almost all the studies. As you said, this is not an anomaly. There is no 'clue' or 'mystery' that needs to be solved, because there is no a priori evidence that there was a high prevalence of kinky hair in Ancient Egyptians the first place. Kinky hair is clearly depicted when it is depicted, and by far most depictions of Ancient Egyptian hair simply don't look like that (spherical in shape and with hair coils depicted):
I'm trying to follow what you are saying here but getting confused. Truthecentric said look at this mummy, it has a kinky hair shaft. Then you say it's not an anomally. Ok fine
But then you say
" there is no a priori evidence that there was a high prevalence of kinky hair in Ancient Egyptians the first place"
That sounds like you are making the opposite case of what Truthcentric was suggesting.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
This is another of the images of Seti Ist and Hathor from his tomb. Keep in mind there were multiple of these images in the tomb not one. I am not sure where the other one is but this is from Archaelogical Museum, Florence.
Just goes to show that some people will go to great lengths to deceive, especially museums. The tomb of Seti Ist probably has/had thousands of images of the king and various deities, yet they always find the most faded and lightened images to pass off as the "authentic" images of the Egyptians. If they are even authentic in the first place. Either way we know how some images are lightened up by restorers in some cases.
Now Seti's tomb is one of the biggest in the Valley of the Kings and archaeologists have been making drawings and pictures of that tomb for hundreds of years and there has been a project called the "thebanmappingproject" that has supposedly been documenting any and everything from the Valley of the Kings for almost 20 years I believe and you mean to tell me we still only have the same dusty old photos from the late 1800s and early 20th century to look at from this tomb? That tells you something. They are desperate to hide the truth. All of these tombs have had full photographic color slides made for various research institutions since the 60s, yet very view of these images are public. I wonder why?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
I put up the image of Seti I to show hair/wig type, But Doug's on skin now
darker skin doesn't make you more African, look at some of the Khosisans.
Let's see if Doug is right about the Theban Mapping Project
Theban Mapping project images:
Sety I led by Horus to Osiris and Hathor.
Hathor presenting menat to Sety I (scene removed by the Franco-Tuscan expedition and now in the Louvre, Paris).
Opening of the Mouth ritual: Sety I seated before an offering table.
Sety I offering wine to Ra-Horakhty.
Sety I [before Ra-Horakhty]: Sety I's head adorned with unusual wig.
Thoth with Sety I.
Sety I [detail of scene with Horus].
Mummy of Sety I: head (side view).
Doug get your shyt together and look at what the Theban Mapping project is documenting rather than what you imagine it's documenting:
Louvre Museum
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^^ what's up with this, looks like an Indian guy ???
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ What's up with this crazy lying b|tch above trying to say Egyptians look like everyone else outside of Africa accept what they really were-- Africans??!
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,: I put up the image of Seti I to show hair/wig type, But Doug's on skin now
darker skin doesn't make you more African, look at some of the Khosisans.
Yes we all know how Khoisan look like and they are not as light as you make them out to be with your select pics and the Egyptians are NOT Khoisan and are much darker (blacker)
Let's see if Doug is right about the Theban Mapping Project
Theban Mapping project images:
Sety I led by Horus to Osiris and Hathor.
Hathor presenting menat to Sety I (scene removed by the Franco-Tuscan expedition and now in the Louvre, Paris).
Opening of the Mouth ritual: Sety I seated before an offering table.
Sety I offering wine to Ra-Horakhty.
Sety I [before Ra-Horakhty]: Sety I's head adorned with unusual wig.
Thoth with Sety I.
Sety I [detail of scene with Horus]. [/qb][/quote] Our point exactly, chocolate dark complexions.
quote: Mummy of Sety I: head (side view).
And what is the purpose of this? To show that Seti was "Caucasian"?! LOL
quote:Doug get your shyt together and look at what the Theban Mapping project is documenting rather than what you imagine it's documenting:
The lightened up lies are being flushed down. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: See my reply below:
quote: Originally posted by HabariTess: I disagree with that observation. Out of all the hair styles/textures out there, they resemble a short fro the most. I'm an artist and I notice the Egyptians drew very simplified versions of people, hair included. If I were to create a simplified black character with a short afro,what the Egyptians depicted would be how the character would have look. You say that Hesire is the only one that look like he has an afro. Hesire hair is actually drawn with the same way as the picture you posted that you said did not look like an afro.
Hey Tess. yes, I agree, the difference is slight. What I'm basing it on is the spherical shape of his hair. Its round. If you look at some of the other examples, their hair extends downward towards the bottom and the hair on top of their head is short. That is inconsistent with Afros. Another thing that makes it inconsistent with Afros, and more consistent with a bob hairstyle, is the fact that this hairstyle always has the same height on the top of their head, while their hair in their neck varies; it can be long, short, etc. Compare:
Yes you can tell that the hairs of the men above are braided if not braided wigs due to the 'fringes' you see sticking out. As for the "bobbed" look when it comes to braids, are you aware that this is known in Egyptology as a 'Nubian style'.
Interestingly enough these Nubian style braids/wigs first became popular during the New Kingdom when it was endorsed by the 18th dynasty.
More examples of Nubian style wigs/braids:
Kiya
Nefertiti
Ankhesenamun
ushabti figure
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Look at this Djefruity idot, the thread is about hair and he's on skin
I put this up to show the hair:
and then he links this as if its' a significant difference.
Defruity simply finds the darkest version of whatever peice of art one is looking at and assumes it's more accurate. The picture could be in low light or bad exposure, does he really know what is more accurate to the actual artifact? No he doesn't he simply trying ato patronize black people.
I could post this Khosian
And Djefruity will go off looking for darker skinned Khoisans as if darker skin makes them more African
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Braided hair does not indicate the hair type, you can't tell, so just stop it
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric:
quote:Originally posted by HabariTess: I have to say though, what kind of hair the general Ancient Egyptians have is still an on going mystery to me, though I'm leaning towards them having curly to kinky hair. I have no problem with believing that they had straight to wavy hair, but some things just don't add up though. I remember you saying Swenet how many North African populations have straight to wavy hair and that it would not have been so if the African population in which many of them shared blood, did not also possess such hair, because if you look at many admixed populations with Africans with kinky hair, you will see kinky hair naturally pop up in those populations. With that said, many present day Egyptians do share that curly to kinky hair that many admixed Afro Americans have, so doesn't that suggest that the Ancient Egyptians also shared that hair texture? If not, where did the kinky hair come from in modern Egyptians. If Ausar, an Egyptian himself, also claim that wavy and straight hair isn't common among Egyptians today, isn't that even more proof of a curly to kinky Ancient Egypt? Also, what of the chemicals that was said to straighten hair during the mummification process? If that is so than how do we know of the pictures of the mummies we have now is their natural hair texture? When I look at the mummified Queen Tiye, her hair looks naturally wavy, or is the change that the hair went through so effective that it just looks really natural? I also find it interested how she is depicted in the art. Nothing points to her having such long, wavy hair, or did she just kept it covered all the time? Most of the foreigners who saw the Ancient Egyptians did describe them having hair of curly or wooly quality, which adds on to the side of them having curly to kinky hair overall. Also, the site Djehuti just posted also supports a curly to kinky Ancient Egyptian population.
In the deep dermis is an acutely curved hair follicle suggesting formation of a kinky hair shaft.---Thomas Chapel et al, "Histologic findings in mummified skin", 1981
Admittedly it's only one mummy, but the fact that this formative hair shaft was found embedded in the epidermis, and therefore protected from the post-mortem environment, makes me think it might give us clues.
Yes, and let's not forget that while Ausar said tightly curled to kinky type hair is most common among native Egyptians. Wavy hair among native Egyptians is actually occurs most often in the SOUTH especially in southern Upper Egypt. And is actually most common among NUBIANS!!
Nile Nubians (Kanuzi & Mahas peoples)
The Kanuzi Nubians are the northernmost of the modern Nubians who live mainly in southern Egypt especially in Aswan. While some Kanuzi do have mixed ancestry from the Ottoman Times in which some groups have intermarried with Turks and even Albanians, such a mixture may explain the light complexions among some individuals but NOT their hair texture since we know the vast majority of Eurasian admixture is found in the northern Delta where folks still have predominantly very curly to kinky hair. Neither does that explain the wavy form of the Mahas and other Nubians further south who have very dark complexions no different from other Africans.
All of this supports that not only is wavy hair indigenous to Africa but as Swenet pointed out was even common in Nubia judging from the Semna remains.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Yes, that's exactly what I think of when I see these hairstyles.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
__________________________________________________________then what is her type of hair? ^^^^
_______________________________________________she may be twisting up braids on the woman at left
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
@Djehuti.
So how did Egyptians have more curly hair and the Nubians more wavy? Don't both groups like live in the same environment?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^^ Read what I posted on page 9 about my hypothesis on the evolution of wavy hair and its correlation with arid climate. Note there are indigenous (black) populations in Arabia who have assorted hair types. Many people in Yemen have kinky hair but then there are other groups especially in Oman who have wavy hair.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ What's up with this crazy lying b|tch above trying to say Egyptians look like everyone else outside of Africa accept what they really were-- Africans??!
The airheaded liar is trying to force any variation that's rare in many quarters of equatorial Africa into the 'admixture' category, but she's adamantly reluctant to comment on the fact that the Egyptian substratum includes ancestry that hasn't been in equatorial Africa for 10s of thousands of years, and so, not only do they not look like duplicates of many equatorial Africans, they're not even supposed to look like equatorial Africans:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: You can place it all in Africa and ask the same question why the bizarre contrast in one region of Africa compared to another. In other words fail.
You cannot demonstrate that the extant kinky haired populations that live in the Northern or Southern third of the continent have lived there as long as the ancestors of the Egypto-Nubians have lived at that lattitude (From Nazlet Khater, all the way to Wadi Kubbaniya and Wadi Halfa). This Upper Palaeolithic presence is also indicated by various haplogroups (in particular, mtDNA L3k which expanded into that region 30-40kya). And that's not even counting the pre-L3 lineages that didn't survive in modern Northern Africans (e.g., Skhull and Qafzeh). Therefore, it is YOUR argument that fails.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [qb]See my reply below:
quote: Originally posted by HabariTess: I disagree with that observation. Out of all the hair styles/textures out there, they resemble a short fro the most. I'm an artist and I notice the Egyptians drew very simplified versions of people, hair included. If I were to create a simplified black character with a short afro,what the Egyptians depicted would be how the character would have look. You say that Hesire is the only one that look like he has an afro. Hesire hair is actually drawn with the same way as the picture you posted that you said did not look like an afro.
Hey Tess. yes, I agree, the difference is slight. What I'm basing it on is the spherical shape of his hair. Its round. If you look at some of the other examples, their hair extends downward towards the bottom and the hair on top of their head is short. That is inconsistent with Afros. Another thing that makes it inconsistent with Afros, and more consistent with a bob hairstyle, is the fact that this hairstyle always has the same height on the top of their head, while their hair in their neck varies; it can be long, short, etc. Compare:
Yes you can tell that the hairs of the men above are braided if not braided wigs due to the 'fringes' you see sticking out. As for the "bobbed" look when it comes to braids, are you aware that this is known in Egyptology as a 'Nubian style'.
Interestingly enough these Nubian style braids/wigs first became popular during the New Kingdom when it was endorsed by the 18th dynasty.
More examples of Nubian style wigs/braids:
The picture of the three men was just an example. Its irrelevant that the lines on the edges may indicate that they were wearing wigs or headdresses, because we know Egyptian wigs and headdresses often imitated or looked like real hairstyles (nemes, khat headdress, cap crown, fake beard). You can easily see the same hairstyles of the three men in natural form on the various reproductions of the so called table of nations and various 18th dynasty nobles (e.g., Sennefer, Nakht, Ahmose, Khnumhotep). My point is that the images that were posted weren't afros, and that they would have looked similar to what the khat headdress looks like. This is a more appropriate comparison than the bob hairstyle, which I had just mentioned for the lack of a better term. The most prominent difference between the khat headdress and the hairstyle in question is probably that the former usually isn't depicted as covering the ears of the subject, while the latter does. Note that the khat hairdress also comes in 'braided' form.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
yeah but what about the ancient painting from Cleopatra's Tomb?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Troll!
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:yeah but what about the ancient painting from Cleopatra's Tomb?
A forensic team recently reconstructed Cleopatra based on the lost portrait found in 1818 from Hadrian’s Villa outside Rome:
[/QB][/QUOTE]
What did Cleopatra really look like? On the front cover is a replica of the original painting of Cleopatra, commissioned by Octavian Augustus on August 12, 30 B.C
^ You made that same claim about Cleopatra before here. Funny how your only source for claim is a white supremacist website. Anyway, we have evidence in the form of Cleopatra's sister Arsinoe, that they are of mixed black ancestry.
And this thread is not about Cleopatra or any depiction there of, but of straight hair of northeast Africans, specifically Nubians and Egyptians.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The picture of the three men was just an example. Its irrelevant that the lines on the edges may indicate that they were wearing wigs or headdresses, because we know Egyptian wigs and headdresses often imitated or looked like real hairstyles (nemes, khat headdress, cap crown, fake beard). You can easily see the same hairstyles of the three men in natural form on the various reproductions of the so called table of nations and various 18th dynasty nobles (e.g., Sennefer, Nakht, Ahmose, Khnumhotep). My point is that the images that were posted weren't afros, and that they would have looked similar to what the khat headdress looks like. This is a more appropriate comparison than the bob hairstyle, which I had just mentioned for the lack of a better term. The most prominent difference between the khat headdress and the hairstyle in question is probably that the former usually isn't depicted as covering the ears of the subject, while the latter does. Note that the khat hairdress also comes in 'braided' form.
Oh, I see what you're talking about now. You are referring to the hairstyles where the hair looks sack-like where it bulges in the lower back and not exactly an all around afro. You compare the look to the khat headdress and I see the resemblance except the khat has a tail or 'braid' in the back.
Actually now that I think of it, although I see no images of Egyptian men's hair being exactly like the khat with a braided tail hanging down the back, I have seen this exact styling of braids among Nilotic peoples like the Kalenjin and Luo people of Kenya. I've actually seen photos of this in a website some years ago comparing the hairstyles to the khat headdress of Egyptians but I can no longer find it!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Relief from the chapel of king Amanitenmomide from Meroe, Berlin, Egyptian Museum, Inv. no. 2260
18th dyn
Fragment of Raised relief, Late 25th - early 26th Dynasty, Brooklyn Museum
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Funny how your only source for claim is a white supremacist website.Anyway, we have evidence in the form of Cleopatra's sister Arsinoe, that they are of mixed black ancestry.
I wrote a paper on it which I submitted late 2012. Extracts I posted here several months back. I own one of the originals of John Sartain's pamphlets, and i've been trying to raise awareness about this for several years. The only reason few people take attention to it is because of leukophobia. I'm sure if Cleopatra was painted dark skinned with afro-type hair, archaeologists would be all over it.
The portrait is described in this leaflet by John Sartain published in 1818:
The portrait was once housed in a gallery and observed by hundreds to thousands of people.
Obviously this portrait is important, because it is the original painting of Cleopatra, commissioned by Octavian Augustus on August 12, 30 B.C. It was painted by the artist Timomachus.
Why people pay it no attention is because it shows Cleopatra as blonde, milky skinned and blue eyed - traits that are now demonised, and you can't even discuss them in academia. Professor Wolfram Nagel of Berlin University for example was fired from his position in a journal for just discussing the possibility that the Indo-Europeans could have blonde hair and blue eyes -
And "Blacks" think they are oppressed. lol.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^^ It's useless without a picture of the original.
And this item has not been verified as being authentic
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The picture of the three men was just an example. Its irrelevant that the lines on the edges may indicate that they were wearing wigs or headdresses, because we know Egyptian wigs and headdresses often imitated or looked like real hairstyles (nemes, khat headdress, cap crown, fake beard). You can easily see the same hairstyles of the three men in natural form on the various reproductions of the so called table of nations and various 18th dynasty nobles (e.g., Sennefer, Nakht, Ahmose, Khnumhotep). My point is that the images that were posted weren't afros, and that they would have looked similar to what the khat headdress looks like. This is a more appropriate comparison than the bob hairstyle, which I had just mentioned for the lack of a better term. The most prominent difference between the khat headdress and the hairstyle in question is probably that the former usually isn't depicted as covering the ears of the subject, while the latter does. Note that the khat hairdress also comes in 'braided' form.
Oh, I see what you're talking about now. You are referring to the hairstyles where the hair looks sack-like where it bulges in the lower back and not exactly an all around afro. You compare the look to the khat headdress and I see the resemblance except the khat has a tail or 'braid' in the back.
Actually now that I think of it, although I see no images of Egyptian men's hair being exactly like the khat with a braided tail hanging down the back, I have seen this exact styling of braids among Nilotic peoples like the Kalenjin and Luo people of Kenya. I've actually seen photos of this in a website some years ago comparing the hairstyles to the khat headdress of Egyptians but I can no longer find it!
Yes, it would have resembled a khat hair dress, but note my crucial comment about their unexposed ears. It probably wouldn't have been a sack (but perhaps styled like one in most depictions) given the fact that it usually covers their ears with a layer of hair. In this sense, it would have been more like a bob hairstyle. When the edges are rounded up to look like a sack in depictions (which is the hairstyle you'll see most often), it looks more like a khat headdress than a bob hairstyle, but in my view, those examples (including the variations where their hair is braided and layered) are just variations of the same hairstyle.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
Swenet's "scientific" explanation for the in-situ theory of Africa wavy hair was posted a few pages back:
"its just a hunch of mine".
Posted by Ponsford (Member # 20191) on :
In genetics the traits we "see" are as a result of random changes at the level of the DNA.At the level of the DNA the nucleotides form a triple codon for each amino acid that make up the protein.Wavy hair,kinky hair etc is as a result of DNA recombination,which is also subject to RNA editing.Therefore even now there would be "outliers" in every Geographic group where hair[protein] is concern.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ponsford: In genetics the traits we "see" are as a result of random changes at the level of the DNA.At the level of the DNA the nucleotides form a triple codon for each amino acid that make up the protein.Wavy hair,kinky hair etc is as a result of DNA recombination,which is also subject to RNA editing.Therefore even now there would be "outliers" in every Geographic group where hair[protein] is concern.
Not true. Racial traits [prior to large scale migrations] were geographically circumscribed, that includes hair texture. We can still look at racial adaptations and trace where they arose. Straight and wavy hair texture are northern latitude adaptations to low UV - the same way skin depigmentated at those same borealized latitudes. Pale skin for example didn't evolve in Africa -
Its funny that the Afrocentrics have no problem with admitting pale skin is a non-African adaptation [even old Zaharan who promotes the myth "Blacks" have the most phenotypic diversity, admits they don't have white skin], but when it comes to hair texture they apply an anti-adaptation logic. Why though accept skin adaptation but not hair adaptation?
The answer lies in the African-American self-hatred surrounding nappy hair (see Chris Rock's documentary Good Hair), which they despise. So what better way to deny their wooly hair, other than clinging to an internet fantasy that a variation of "Blacks" have natural straight hair in the first place.
If the Afronuts were at least consistent they would be claiming "Blacks" adapted pale milky skin. If you're going to deny racial adaptations and biology -you might as well deny all of them...
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Modo-face, you can keep reinventing your wording and reformulating your arguments. Truth is, you've been refuted since over two thread pages ago.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: It's in the same UV cluster
It’s also in the same cluster as indigenous South Asians and Southeast Asians, many of whom have straighter hair than Europeans. What is your point?
You can keep posting ''new evidence'' all you want. All you're doing is proving your habit to flip flop and knock down strawmen. Then there is the fact that other UV maps don't depict Northern Africa as in the same UV range as Equatorial Africa:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Its not hard to imagine that hair type in more Northern regions (relative to Yemen) [e.g., the Eastern Sahara] could easily produce more looser hair than what's visible on the head of that guy you've posted.
What's next?
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Swenet's "scientific" explanation for the in-situ theory of Africa wavy hair was posted a few pages back:
"its just a hunch of mine".
^This is a deliberate lie and distortion. What I was referring to in that post is something I don't necessarily subscribe to as much. I stated this in the same post you're paraphrasing. You're a fraud, and you don't shun blatant lying. No Euronut does, for that matter.
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Its funny that the Afrocentrics have no problem with admitting pale skin is a non-African adaptation
Its funny that you keep posting examples of Africans who live in regions they're not fully adapted to, as evidence that they can't have those adaptations. You did this with Nilotes, you did this with Southern Africans and Australian Aboriginals (by posting and defending Noback et al 2011). Now you're doing it with that skin pigmentation map, even though the extant black populations in the high latitudes of Africa (e.g., Southern Africa) are relatively recent immigrants into the area. You then unfairly contrast them with Europeans who have lived in Low UV Europe for 40ky. You're a FRAUD, and on the few occasions that you're not lying or making up sh!t, your arguments consist of logical fallacies.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QB] ^Its just one of my hunches, which I don't necessarily subscribe to as much as I use to. Usually I just explain it in terms of clinal distribution of ecological factors, without necessarily trying to pin it down to a single selective pressure.
Whatever caused Levantines and Arabs to have it, would caused long term inhabitants of the Sahara to have it too.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: What I was referring to in that post is something I don't necessarily subscribe to as much. I stated this in the same post you're paraphrasing. You're a fraud, and you don't shun blatant lying. No Euronut does, for that matter.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric:
Thanks for the feedback, guys, and I'm pleasantly surprised that it has been relatively positive so far. I was expecting a lot more ridicule for my connecting the modern US Presidency to early Nubian kingship. It's not an intuitive one.
Does anyone else think there might be a connection between Nile Valley kingship and that seen in the Near East and Europe? I must admit that it was mostly a hunch of mine.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: We may be confusing the issue. The issue isn’t that there was phenotypic diversity within Africa(including hair). Of course there was. Africans had 150,000yrs head start to develop the diversity. The issue is did that diversity LEAVE Africa. And what are the phenotypic traits of the humans that left Africa. Most, if not all, researchers agree that a fraction of the diversity(if any) left Africa. Of course the humans that left looked nothing like contemporary humans either within or external to Africa. But we can generalize and say 1. They probably looked very similar. Why? 2. They were dark. Why? 3. They probably had wavy, straight hair. Maybe with so-called aquiline nose. Why?
Why? Evolution101. The environment gives a good indication of what inhabitants looked liked.
Soo o o o , is the Horn a tropical, forested region? Was theTwa one the” diverse” group that migrated to the Anderman Islands and then went on to New Guinea LOL! Tic !Toc! Tic! Toc!
You can always tell when someone has a scientific or technical background. Look at how they analyze the issue.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Are these wigs?
Or is it curly hair?
Or are they afros?
It's impossible to tell
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
There is no texture even indicated on these. You can't tell what the hair type is.
Are the people at right waering some king of white cloths on their heads or is it hair? If it's hair, they don't look like old men so wouldn't it be blond color if it was hair?.
Same problem, this type of art does not have enough detail to tell what the hair type is
Look at Hesire:
^^^^ It's an afro right?
Yeah but this is also Hesire, same wood panel series
-the point is you can't tell what type his natural hair was.
I understand how you can't understand this.
But this hair:
can be turned into this.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: ^ "HAIR TYPE, FORM, AND COLOR Hair is composed of keratinized cells tightly cemented together (Mayr, 1970). Humans are closely categorized in accordance with hair color, type, and form-for example, wavy, straight, irregular, or spiral. These features serve descriptive, rather than causal, pur-poses. It seems the degree of hair coil coincides closely with the extent of tightness of the keratinized cells. Hair tends to coil less away from the tropics. The extent of coiling appears to be correlated with humid/hot ver-sus dry/cold binary opposition. Thence, hair tends to coil more in hot and humid Florida and less in cooler and less humid California."
Variation within the Black Human Race-Paleoecological Sketches to the Nonstarted Journal of Black Studies, Vol. 31, No. 6 (Jul., 2001), pp. 812-834
Lol. So you even have most Afrocentric journals even agreeing straight-wavy hair is a cold northern latitude (non-African) adaptation.
Apart from Zaharan and Swenet behind their keyboards, no one else is claiming "Blacks have straight hair". Not even the Journal of Black Studies...
You are debunking yourself once more.
Since we have already reviewed the climatic conditions of Northeast Africa. And besides that, which group of Africans did the study?
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Pre-Dynastic Egypt:
Wiercinski A. (1961). "The racial analysis of predynastic populations in Egypt". [In:] Atti del I° Congresso di Scienze. Antropolog. Etnologie di Folklore. Torino. pp. 431–440.
Wiercinski A. (1965). "The analysis of racial structure of early dynastic populations in Egypt". Mater i Prace Antropol. 71. pp. 3–48.
It's outdated obsolete nonsense. And on top of that, he is associated with the Nazis and eugenics. What outcome could we expect? It's funny how you think it's to be taken seriously. LOL
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Note how the Afroloons are not even consistent:
1. You have Dejhuti claiming "loose wavy" but not true straight hair is native to Africa.
2. You have Troll Patrol claiming "curly" or "loose curly" but not either straight or "European wavy type" hair as native to Africa.
3. Now you have Swenet, claiming true "straight" hair is native.
4. Zaharan who claims all textures as native.
- Just make crap up as you go along. That's what the internet is thesedays.
Yes, the Internet is your only source of information.
Real life is unknown to you! So is the ethnography of Africa!
You dumb dork! Fake hip-hopper.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
Somalis are predominantly African in ancestry yet even those individuals with alleged ‘Eurasian’ ancestry are no different from other Somalis in that they exhibit super-tropical adaptations, so why would their hair form be an exception?
______^^^^ Djehootie's right Somalis are predominantly African, see the African percentage
That's not true. Notice how you estimate, and don't have any Hg sequence and frequency to back up.
E1b1b1a. M78
quote: The Northeast Africa-based E1b1b1a subclade is defined by SNP M78. Somalia, Sudan and Egypt are among the present day countries with very high frequencies (60-90%) of the E1b1b1a M78 subclade. The STR data also support its origin in this area with a TMRCA estimated at 14-23 kya.
E1b1b1a1b. V32
quote:The E1b1b1a1b (V32) subclade is a descendant of E1b1b1a1 (V12). E1b1b1a1b/V32 is highest in Somalia (47-75%), Sudan (52%) and Ethiopia (40%). All these chromosomes detected to date fall into the East African M78 g microsatellite cluster, which is associated with Cushitic (Afro-Asiatic) language groups in Somalia, Ethiopia and Kenya. There is some notion that the Great Rift Valley acted as a barrier to isolate language and genetic groups in this region. This subclade is abundant in Somalia, although the STR diversity is rather low. This data would suggest that the E1b1b1a1b/V32 Somali population was shaped by a founder effect, somewhat recently.
E1b1b1e. V6
quote:his somewhat rare haplogroup, E1b1b1e (V6), has only been observed in East Africa with the most appreciable levels seen in Ethiopia (4-17%). Kenya and Somalia also harbor a moderate frequency (5%) of this subclade.
The famous man above is "halve East African". Thou they say his mama wasn't fully white. Never the less.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
Repost,
Archeologists discover Egyptian mummies styled with fatty hair gel(a major component of palm trees)
Ancient Egyptians used 'hair gel' Mummy analysis finds that fat-based product held styles in place.
Mummy analysis finds that fat-based product held styles in place.
quote:The ancient Egyptians styled their hair using a fat-based 'gel', an analysis of mummies has found. The researchers behind the study say that the Egyptians used the product to ensure that their style stayed in place in both life and death.
Natalie McCreesh, an archaeological scientist from the KNH Centre for Biomedical Egyptology at the University of Manchester, UK, and her colleagues studied hair samples taken from 18 mummies. The oldest is around 3,500 years old, but most were excavated from a cemetery in the Dakhleh Oasis in the Western Desert, and date from Greco-Roman times, around 2,300 years ago.
They include males and females ranging in age from 4 to 58 years old. Some were artificially mummified, whereas others were preserved naturally by the dry sand in which they were buried.
Microscopy using light and electrons revealed that nine of the mummies had hair coated in a mysterious fat-like substance. The researchers used gas chromatography–mass spectrometry to separate out the different molecules in the samples, and found that the coating contained biological long-chain fatty acids including palmitic acid and stearic acid. The results are published in the Journal of Archaeological Science1.
McCreesh thinks that the fatty coating is a styling product that was used to set hair in place. It was found on both natural and artificial mummies, so she believes that it was a beauty product during life as well as a key part of the mummification process.
The resins and embalming materials used to prepare the artificially mummified bodies were not found in the hair samples, suggesting that the hair was protected during embalming and then styled separately.
"Maybe they paid special attention to the hair because they realized that it didn't degrade as much as the rest of the body," says McCreesh. The product was found on both male and female mummies, showing that both sexes cared about their eternal hairdo.
High-status hairstyles
John Taylor, head of the Egyptian mummy collection at the British Museum in London, describes the idea as feasible. "Hair was a status symbol," he says — elaborate styles signified high standing.
Egyptian texts and art contain no mention of hair products, he says, although ancient Egyptians are known to have used scented oils and lotions on their bodies.
"The best clue comes from Egyptian wigs," says Taylor. "The hair is often coated with beeswax." Such wigs, which have been found in Egyptian tombs, would have been expensive and probably restricted to the nobility, says McCreesh. "The majority of the mummies I've looked at have their own hair," she says.
The Egyptians might have also used beeswax on their own hair. The wax contains fatty acids such as palmitic acid, although McCreesh says that her results so far don't show any evidence of beeswax. "It was a fat, but we can't tell you what type of fat," she says.
ADVERTISEMENT She points out that beeswax would be difficult to wash out of hair, compared to, say, animal fat. She now plans to analyse the samples further, to try to pin down the hair-gel recipe.
The mummies' hairstyles varied, both long and short, with curls particularly popular; metal implements resembling curling tongs have been found in several tombs. Once the hair was styled, the fatty gunge would have held the individuals' curls in place.
"You can almost imagine them when they were alive," says McCreesh, "tending their hair and putting their curls in."
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Djehootie's right Somalis are predominantly African, see the African percentage [/qb]
That's not true. Notice how you estimate, and don't have any Hg sequence and frequency to back up.
You say the above statement "Somalis are predominantly African" is not true that Somalis are predominantly Non-African
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
The famous man above is "halve East African". Thou they say his mama wasn't fully white. Never the less. [/QB]
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Djehootie's right Somalis are predominantly African, see the African percentage
That's not true. Notice how you estimate, and don't have any Hg sequence and frequency to back up.
You say the above statement "Somalis are predominantly African" is not true that Somalis are predominantly Non-African
Your sequence is based on M215+. And you are a fraud!
E1b1b1a. M78
quote: The Northeast Africa-based E1b1b1a subclade is defined by SNP M78. Somalia, Sudan and Egypt are among the present day countries with very high frequencies (60-90%) of the E1b1b1a M78 subclade. The STR data also support its origin in this area with a TMRCA estimated at 14-23 kya.
E1b1b1a1b. V32
quote:The E1b1b1a1b (V32) subclade is a descendant of E1b1b1a1 (V12). E1b1b1a1b/V32 is highest in Somalia (47-75%), Sudan (52%) and Ethiopia (40%). All these chromosomes detected to date fall into the East African M78 g microsatellite cluster, which is associated with Cushitic (Afro-Asiatic) language groups in Somalia, Ethiopia and Kenya. There is some notion that the Great Rift Valley acted as a barrier to isolate language and genetic groups in this region. This subclade is abundant in Somalia, although the STR diversity is rather low. This data would suggest that the E1b1b1a1b/V32 Somali population was shaped by a founder effect, somewhat recently.
E1b1b1e. V6
quote:This somewhat rare haplogroup, E1b1b1e (V6), has only been observed in East Africa with the most appreciable levels seen in Ethiopia (4-17%). Kenya and Somalia also harbor a moderate frequency (5%) of this subclade.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Since we have already reviewed the climatic conditions of Northeast Africa
As a continent it actually has the least climatic diversity in this aspect. While the Americas and Eurasia span the entire UV spectrum, Africa is merely confined to a very small UV index range [so much for "African diversity"...]
Africa: 7 - 11 Americas: 1 - 11 Eurasia: 1 - 11
UV Index Map:
Skin pigmentation like hair texture is linked to UV index.
As you can see Africa has the least native diversity in both hair texture and skin colour - just look at the map. West Eurasia is UV 2 - 11, Africa is only 7 - 11. O dear... lol
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
^Your post is Internet rubbish! Since the climates in Africa can differ dramatically from place to place. But hell, what do you know? LOL I will not mention Asia, on that schedule you've posted. O' dear. LOL
quote: The place which comes closets to the Med temperature is Sharm el Sheikh.
Climate: Egypt has a desert climate (except the coastal strip along the Mediterranean). hot, dry summers with moderate winters. Daily sunshine averages 12 hours in the summer and 8-10 hours in the winter. There are some cloudy days in the north during the winter months, with some rain but few in the south.
Southern Egypt is hot in the summer with low humidity. During the winter months - December, January and February - average daily temperatures stay up around 20°C (68°F) on the Mediterranean coast and a pleasant 26°C (80°F) in Aswan. Maximum temperatures get to 31°C (88°F) and 50°C (122°F) respectively. Winter nights only get down to 8°C (45°F), a very Egyptian version of chilly. Alexandria receives the most rain, with 19cm (7.5in) each year, while Aswan is almost bone-dry with just 2mm annually. Between March and April the khamsin blows in from the Western Desert at up to 150kmph (93mph).
Weatherwise: June to August is unbearably hot and temperatures during the day can soar up to 40°C. The best time to visit is in the spring, March to May or Autumn, September to November. In January the weather can be overcast and frequent downpours in some areas. Sinai's beaches are a tad chilly for sunbathing.
quote:Summer temperatures are extremely high, reaching 38°C to 43°C with extremes of 49°C in the southern and western deserts. The northern areas on the Mediterranean coast are much cooler, with 32°C as a maximum. Around April, a hot windstorm called the Khamsin sweeps through Egypt. Its driving winds blow large amounts of sand and dust at high speeds. The khamsin may raise temperatures as much as 38°C in two hours, and the hot winds can damage crops.
You are a waste of my time.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
@Lioness,
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Djehootie's right Somalis are predominantly African,
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: That's not true.
Troll are you retracting your remark "That's not true" and saying that it is true? You need to answer this question because you are not being clear
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
Your sequence is based on M215+. And you are a fraud!
Are you saying the following DNATribes data is a fraud?
DNATribes Digest Africa 2009 SOMALIA Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
^During my Patrol I have already responded to you, three at best! One post even shows the complete makeup of Hg's.
You haven't responded to my question once, Lyin'S.(troll)
All you did was post inconsequential repetitive suggestions based on "estimations".
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
Lol @ Troll Patrol.
You do realise the Earth rotates right?
Africa has the lowest UV index diversity because the entire continent is in a medial latitude position - it recieves the most intense sunlight given its position.
UV Index:
Africa: 7 - 11 Americas: 1 - 11 Eurasia: 1 - 11
Africa has the lowest UV diversity.
Btw, your second map shows exactly this limited UV diversity, the African spectrum is only 7 - 11. 1 - 5 "low uv" don't appear anywhere in Africa, not even the extreme north or south...
-- Native Africans [trait-wise] have the lowest diversity in skin colour and hair texture. While all the other continents basically have a place with low uv levels (1 - 5), Africa doesn't. Africa is limited to high UV.
Straight-wavy hair and light skin are adaptations to low UV only, they are non-African adaptations.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,: Djehootie's right Somalis are predominantly African,
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: That's not true.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Troll Patrol: [QB] ^During my Patrol I have already responded to you, three at best! One post even shows the complete makeup of Hg's.
You haven't responded to my question once,
All you did was post inconsequential repetitive suggestions based on "estimations".
well I guess you meant what you said, the statement:
"Somalis are predominantly African" is
" not true"
I'm glad we settled on what your position is Let me know if you want to retract.
Ok let's move on
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Are these wigs?
Or is it curly hair?
Or are they afros?
It's impossible to tell
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
There is no texture even indicated on these. You can't tell what the hair type is.
Are the people at right waering some king of white cloths on their heads or is it hair? If it's hair, they don't look like old men so wouldn't it be blond color if it was hair?.
Same problem, this type of art does not have enough detail to tell what the hair type is
Look at Hesire:
^^^^ It's an afro right?
Yeah but this is also Hesire, same wood panel series
-the point is you can't tell what type his natural hair was.
I understand how you can't understand this.
But this hair:
can be turned into this.
The fact that I said you can't tell what type of hair it is if it is styled in a painting means I understand that in it's natural state it could be straight hair or an afro.
Are you taking the position that no Egyptians prior to that late period had straight hair?
Nevermind. I know you don't take positions, too much commitment, you just put up photos and charts, carry on.
Defruity says straight hair is the predominat type in indigenopus Africans of the Sahara
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
The famous man above is "halve East African". Thou they say his mama wasn't fully white. Never the less.
So then was this one's papa not fully white?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Okay. The point is there are plenty of folks who are half-white from Bob Marley to President Obama, yet their hair is STILL kinky. Why then when there are blacks in Africa who look nowhere near part white even with very black skin and very tropical proportions they are assumed to be part-Eurasian due to their wavy hair? I already showed in a couple of threads black Eurasians with kinky hair as well as wavy hair so the whole wavy hair = Eurasian is a non-starter. Note too the hypocrisy that when frizzy or kinky type hair is found among even 'white' Eurasians such as Circassians in the Caucasus or some Turks and Europeans, there is no claim to say these people have African ancestry even though that may well be the case.
Also, if you guys want to argue Somali genetics there are plenty of old threads in this forum that discusses that. Suffice to say, Somalis have the highest frequency of E-M35 lineages in all of Africa yet now the lyinass is trying to say they have significant 'Eurasian' ancestry. LOL
By the way, I noticed when the lyinass posted pictures of Hesira, she posted a close-up of Hesira with his obvious plant fiber wig with the thick bands running down but NOT the afro wig.
Here the close-up of Hesi-ra in his afro.
I would like to get back to the issue of Egyptian hair and not anything else.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Yes, it would have resembled a khat hair dress, but note my crucial comment about their unexposed ears. It probably wouldn't have been a sack (but perhaps styled like one in most depictions) given the fact that it usually covers their ears with a layer of hair. In this sense, it would have been more like a bob hairstyle. When the edges are rounded up to look like a sack in depictions (which is the hairstyle you'll see most often), it looks more like a khat headdress than a bob hairstyle, but in my view, those examples (including the variations where their hair is braided and layered) are just variations of the same hairstyle.
I'm thinking either the above hairstyles are artificial (plant) wigs OR actual hair styled that way...
For example, they could be kinky or frizzy hair hair combed down especially with a hot comb (since apparently the Egyptians invented hot combs).
Once straightened, they could be cut into certain shapes or styles like the miniature figures above.
So it's not hard to imagine men like these
Or women like this..
... having longer haired laid down for such an appearance though men usually kept their hair shorter than women.
Another option is that the men could have afros that were cut and 'shaped' into the forms shown in the miniatures.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,: Djehootie's right Somalis are predominantly African,
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: That's not true.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Troll Patrol: [QB] ^During my Patrol I have already responded to you, three at best! One post even shows the complete makeup of Hg's.
You haven't responded to my question once,
All you did was post inconsequential repetitive suggestions based on "estimations".
well I guess you meant what you said, the statement:
"Somalis are predominantly African" is
" not true"
I'm glad we settled on what your position is Let me know if you want to retract.
Ok let's move on
You are retarded. If you think you've actually made a point!lol
Djehuti stated Somalis main component is E-M35. Read to map above, "if you can".
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
The famous man above is "halve East African". Thou they say his mama wasn't fully white. Never the less.
So then was this one's papa not fully white?
I don't know is his dad was fully white. I did hear once that his dad was Lebanese or something. Yet he still looks nothing like those Somalis, who are extremely dark with straight hair. I had a Somali neighbor awhile a go with that type of hair texture and color complexion.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Lol @ Troll Patrol.
You do realise the Earth rotates right?
Africa has the lowest UV index diversity because the entire continent is in a medial latitude position - it recieves the most intense sunlight given its position.
UV Index:
Africa: 7 - 11 Americas: 1 - 11 Eurasia: 1 - 11
Africa has the lowest UV diversity.
Btw, your second map shows exactly this limited UV diversity, the African spectrum is only 7 - 11. 1 - 5 "low uv" don't appear anywhere in Africa, not even the extreme north or south...
-- Native Africans [trait-wise] have the lowest diversity in skin colour and hair texture. While all the other continents basically have a place with low uv levels (1 - 5), Africa doesn't. Africa is limited to high UV.
Straight-wavy hair and light skin are adaptations to low UV only, they are non-African adaptations.
Do you realize Africa has different climatic zones, including the Mediterranean climate. And on other hand we have Igbos and Khoisan (to name a few). Again you are debunking yourself with your UV-Index map. Shift your crooked eyes to the right (Asia). LOL
Adaptations to Climate-Mediated Selective Pressures in Humans
Angela M. Hancock et al.
Since human populations occupy a wide variety of environments with respect to climate, selective pressures are expected to vary greatly across geographic regions. Adaptations to spatially varying selective pressures are evident in the geographic distributions of many traits. For example, significant correlations exist between body mass and temperature [13]–[14], consistent with Bergmann's and Allen's Rules. Furthermore, there is evidence that human metabolism has been shaped by adaptations to cold stress from studies of arctic populations, which exhibit elevated basal metabolic rates compared to non-indigenous populations [15].
Like body mass, variation in skin pigmentation is strongly correlated with climate and geography, i.e. distance from the equator and solar radiation [16]–[17]. Lighter pigmentation is likely to be adaptive in high latitudes, in part, because UV light is needed to penetrate the skin to produce vitamin D [16]–[19], which is necessary for calcium absorption and bone growth.
(A) Maps show the distributions of summer and winter climate variables: maximum summer temperature, minimum winter temperature and solar radiation, precipitation rate and relative humidity in the summer and winter. (B) A heatmap shows the absolute values of Spearman rank correlation coefficients between pairs of climate variables.
Table 3. SNPs with the strongest signals of selection among those associated with phenotypic traits in GWAS.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Are these wigs?
Or is it curly hair?
Or are they afros?
It's impossible to tell
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
There is no texture even indicated on these. You can't tell what the hair type is.
Are the people at right waering some king of white cloths on their heads or is it hair? If it's hair, they don't look like old men so wouldn't it be blond color if it was hair?.
Same problem, this type of art does not have enough detail to tell what the hair type is
Look at Hesire:
^^^^ It's an afro right?
Yeah but this is also Hesire, same wood panel series
-the point is you can't tell what type his natural hair was.
I understand how you can't understand this.
But this hair:
can be turned into this.
The fact that I said you can't tell what type of hair it is if it is styled in a painting means I understand that in it's natural state it could be straight hair or an afro.
Are you taking the position that no Egyptians prior to that late period had straight hair?
Nevermind. I know you don't take positions, too much commitment, you just put up photos and charts, carry on.
Defruity says straight hair is the predominat type in indigenopus Africans of the Sahara
Therefore it's perfectly normal the same Man had differed hairstyles. I even posted a "study" alone, showing the ancients using certain oils. lol
I am not sure if he, Djehuti, said "predominant", but groups have moved from terrain to terrain. While others stayed in the same location. All of this during climatic changes in the Sahara/Sahel region had.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djeshit:
^ Okay. The point is there are plenty of folks who are half-white from Bob Marley to President Obama, yet their hair is STILL kinky. Why then when there are blacks in Africa who look nowhere near part white even with very black skin and very tropical proportions they are assumed to be part-Eurasian due to their wavy hair? I already showed in a couple of threads black Eurasians with kinky hair as well as wavy hair so the whole wavy hair = Eurasian is a non-starter. Note too the hypocrisy that when frizzy or kinky type hair is found among even 'white' Eurasians such as Circassians in the Caucasus or some Turks and Europeans, there is no claim to say these people have African ancestry even though that may well be the case.
By the way, I noticed when the lioness posted pictures of Hesira, she posted a close-up of Hesira with his obvious plant fiber wig with the thick bands running down but NOT the afro wig.
Here the close-up of Hesi-ra in his afro.
I would like to get back to the issue of Egyptian hair and not anything else.
You assumed a lot there about intent but I didn't even make any statements. My intent was to illustrate all the people they were talking about, hubby Barak, Bob Marley and their parents. It's pretty intersting to see them all together like that. Neither Barak or Bob have wavy hair so your remarks are irrelevant. You can put your crusader sword away. Be more chill like Al Tak rather than jumpy and nervous.
What i have said is that looking at many of this art you can't tell for sure what the natural state of their hair was be it afro or straight or wavy.
Despite mummys you seem to say every instance in the art is an afro. You have pictures up of a bunch of African Americans with afros. Yet at the same time you maintain wavy hair is indigenous. I suppose there is no example in Egyptian art depicting Egyptians prior the late period that you think might represent hair that is not afro. Yet you are adamant that indigenous people in the region have such hair, not very consistent are you? It seems politically tainted, not objective.
I'm of the opinon that the art could be representing people with or without afro type hair. If I were to guess I would proably guess that Rahotep for instance may have had afro type hair.
I had taken into serious consideration that Hesire might have had an afro yet he is depicted with three different hair styles. I have posted a book page before which describes them all as wigs.
If he is depicted with three dfferent hairstyles what justification do you have i saying the afro one is not a wig? That they were incapable of making a wig overlapping the ear?
The thing that made be doubt the possibilty:
^^^ If he had that big puffy fro how is he fitting on this if it's a wig and lays so flatly on his head? I suppose he could grease down the afro in just in order to wear the straight wig. But if you do that to a fro it's not easy and it takes combing also and your hair is not going to go back into a fro anytime soon. Wake up knucklehead the man was bald
You say " his obvious plant fiber wig "
You are certain each and every every wig with straight strands is made of plant fiber?
more jumping to conclusions and assumption. tisk tisk If you were writing a book you would state that it was made of plant fiber without knowing what it was made of? Oh that's your style?
What is going on with his hair here could be a number of possibilities. a) he had straight hair and the artist didn't depict it in strict thin scale realism b) he had a fro or wavy and treated his hair straight c) it's a wig of unkown material d) it's microbraided hair e) Defruity is all knowing
my opinion, the man was bald and he had three wigs
and you don't hear me sayin stuff like "he obviously had straight hair" because there is no way of knowing, the situation is not "obvious" even though people might endorse the idea he had an afro because that makes them feel more comfortable.
[IMG][/IMG]
^^^^^ This hair I would call straight with slight wave. I suppose you call this wavy. You think there are adult male Africans with no Arab or other non-african ancestry with hair which grows downward and if grown out could cover the shoulders? What tribe has that? I won't say impossible but I would say unlikely.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
^ notice the person above doesn't respond directly to the question being proposed. It's mere another distraction.
quote: Wig of human hair
From Thebes, Egypt 18th Dynasty, about 1550-1300 BC
An ancient Egyptian's crowning glory
This wig is made of human hair, and is supposed to have come from a tomb at Thebes. It was found in its original box. The wig is in two parts, a mass of naturally curly hair on top of several hundred thin plaits hanging around the neck of the main wig. The curls are impregnated with a mixture of beeswax and resin. Each hair in the wig was waxed at the end and attached to the wig by twisting and then pressing back into the wax on the hair stem. An examination by a modern wigmaker concluded that the standard of craftsmanship was as high as in a good modern wig.
Wigs appear to have been commonly used in Egypt; Egyptologists normally refer to the majority of hairstyles shown in painting and sculpture as wigs. If this was indeed the case, and wigs were regularly worn for special occasions, then there must have been a considerable number in use. The hair is lighter than the almost pure black that is shown in Egyptian paintings.
J. Stevens Cox, 'The construction of an Ancient Egyptian wig (c. 1400 B.C.) in the British Museum', Journal of Egyptian Archaeol-5, 63 (1977)
S. Quirke and A.J. Spencer, The British Museum book of anc (London, The British Museum Press, 1992)
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QB] [^^^ If he had that big puffy fro how is he fitting on this if it's a wig and lays so flatly on his head? I suppose he could grease down the afro in just in order to wear the straight wig. But if you do that to a fro it's not easy and it takes combing also and your hair is not going to go back into a fro anytime soon. Wake up knucklehead the man was bald
LOL
That completely depends on the texture of the hair. So you are off, again! In fact, usually when it's big and puffy "as you suggest" the hair is soft(-er).
You still haven't explained why all Africans need to have "the same hair texture" and can have loser hair texture? Neither have you explained why the Khoisan have " peppercorn" hair texture, when others don't.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^ notice how Troll makes no statements just posts pictures as if we are supposed to guess what his stance is. timid
Did Hesire have an afro? I don't know for sure ask Djeshootme he knows everything
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ notice how Troll makes no statements just posts pictures as if we are supposed to guess what his stance is. timid
^
Patrolling your troll ass is what what I do, so when are you going to answer all these questions. I am waiting for about a year now. Btw, there weren't just pics in my previous post.lol
Running from questions is what you can do best! In case you haven't noticed this about yourself.
It's carved stone, you can't tell whether he had a wig on, or different hairstyles during his lifespan.lol
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ notice how Troll makes no statements just posts pictures as if we are supposed to guess what his stance is. timid
^
Patrolling your troll ass is what what I do, so when are you going to answer all these questions. I am waiting for about a year now.
Running from questions is what you can do best! In case you haven't noticed this about yourself.
what question are you referring to Troll?
[i]if the wig don't fit you must acquit"
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ notice how Troll makes no statements just posts pictures as if we are supposed to guess what his stance is. timid
^
Patrolling your troll ass is what what I do, so when are you going to answer all these questions. I am waiting for about a year now.
Running from questions is what you can do best! In case you haven't noticed this about yourself.
what question are you referring to Troll?
Get you head out your ass, for once. Lyin'S. (troll)
Repost;
You still haven't explained why all Africans need to have "the same hair texture" and can have loser hair texture? Neither have you explained why the Khoisan have " peppercorn" hair texture, when others don't.
Don't run away this time, like you have been doing for about a year now!lol
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
You still haven't explained why all Africans need to have "the same hair texture" and can have loser hair texture? Neither have you explained why the Khoisan have " peppercorn" hair texture, when others don't.
Don't run away this time!lol [/QB]
you have to have well stated questions to deal with the lioness
your questions seem to be:
1) Why do all Africans need to have the same hair texture?
2) Why do Khoisans have peppercorn hair texture?
Why do you say I'm running who is asking me these questions? where are the quotes of people asking me these questions. Also where's my answer payment? And nobody has ever asked me directly why Khosians have peppercorn hair. The why is a new one
1-Hair texture seems to me relative to the environment. Africa in my opinion doesn't have populations living continuously in cold environments to acquire hair such as Chinese people have I have already written plenty on the subject just backtrack the thread. Nobody but you is asking me about it because they don't want to hear me sayong the same things over again. You're going to bring up Austrailans. I covered that earlier.
2- I don't know why Khosians who live in arid conditions have peppercorn hair. Pepercorn hair seems pretty close to my afro type hair and Africans. It's possible their peppercorn hair is due to the fact that the San consume over 20% of the world's black pepper. The average San consumes 12 pounds or pepper a year.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
You still haven't explained why all Africans need to have "the same hair texture" and can have loser hair texture? Neither have you explained why the Khoisan have " peppercorn" hair texture, when others don't.
Don't run away this time!lol
you have to have well stated questions to deal with the lioness
your questions seem to be:
1) Why do all Africans need to have the same hair texture?
2) Why do Khoisans have peppercorn hair texture?
Why do you say I'm running who is asking me these questions? where are the quotes of people asking me these questions. Also where's my answer payment? And nobody has ever asked me directly why Khosians have peppercorn hair. The why is a new one
1-Hair texture seems to me relative to the environment. Africa in my opinion doesn't have populations living continuously in cold environments to acquire hair such as Chinese people have I have already written plenty on the subject just backtrack the thread. Nobody but you is asking me about it because they don't want to hear me sayong the same things over again. You're going to bring up Austrailans. I covered that earlier.
2- I don't know why Khosians who live in arid conditions have peppercorn hair. Pepercorn hair seems pretty close to my afro type hair and Africans. It's possible their peppercorn hair is due to the fact that the San consume over 20% of the world's black pepper. The average San consumes 12 pounds or pepper a year. [/QB]
It was stated well before. On multiple accounts.
So formulating the question wasn't nessesary. The point is, you ran from it so many times, you now act as if it was never addressed properly.lol
Where did I speak of Austrailans?lol
I am asking, why do all Africans despite of living in different ecosystems still need to have the same hair texture? Don't divert from this.
So you don't know why the Khoisan have peppercorn hair texture? Ok, fine. So, why is it other Africans can't have loser hair texture?
And to pin point it, why isn't Afro hair by "native Africans" not as equally peppercorn, why does it differ?
Reference: "Pepercorn hair seems pretty close to my afro type hair and Africans."
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: .
So formulating the question wasn't nessesary. The point is, you ran from it so many times, you now act as if it was never addressed properly.lol
Formulating the questions clearly is necessary. You haven't read the thread from page one you were awol I address all of this in detail.
Where are your quote of somebody asking me a question that you keep referring to and give me the page number
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
I am asking, why do all Africans despite of living in different ecosystems still need to have the same hair texture? Don't divert from this.
Why would you ask such a question? Your other posts are saying everything is afro in the Egyptian art Yet you want to talk hair diversity in Africa at the same time. Yet you would never suggest any of the Egyptian art before late dyansties represent people with wavy straight hair. That's hypocritical and Djeshootme is doing the same thing. Totally inconsistent behavior
Go back in the thread were I posted from a book scan on the evolution of hair. I also added comments there. Not every different ecosystem is going to require a unique type of hair. Africa has a variety of ecosytems but it doesn't have all the ecosystems in the world. Therefore it's not going to have all the adaptations of the world. Try to find an African tribe with people who have the type of hair Chinese people have. If you can't find such a tribe ask yourself why.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
So you don't know why the Khoisan have peppercorn hair texture? Ok, fine. So, why is it other Africans can't have loser hair texture?
And to pin point it, why isn't Afro hair by "native Africans" not as equally peppercorn, why does it differ?
Reference: "Pepercorn hair seems pretty close to my afro type hair and Africans."
The ancestors of Native Americans are thought to be Eurasian Siberians who crossed the Bering Straits. It's cold up there. Later some went down into the tropical zones of South America. They either haven't been there long enough to evolve back to afro hair or their straight hair (which is cut) is not that big of a disadvantage in the rain forest. It's possible however thant in the future Amazoanians could develop afros eventually -two theories there.
Now if you go up North and you don't have good clothes you could freeze to death. Springy hair that is good for humid environments to let perspiration is not as warm as stright hair that lays flatly on top of itself. If grown long it easily covers the back of the neck or further down to the shoulders. Think about that I don't think big thick dred locks are as efficient, the hair strands bunch up into wide sections and cold air can get in between. And its is very bulky. Forest people would have all sorts of branches getting caught up in that moving through thick brush. If you go back to the book page I posted you will see two additonal unique theories. That's your homework, $25.00
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
^ I am not talking about Native Americans or Chinese people, I am talking about Africans. Did you know that Africa is multiple times larger than China, and in case you didn't know China has multiple ethnic groups too, so it is with Native Americans. Also, mankind inhabited Africa much longer then these other places.
So again, why is that all Africans need to have the same type of hair texture while living in a different ecosystem?
Don't rush into straight hair, lets take it one step at a time. And no, I didn't mention dreadlocks.
Northeast Africa, Egypt has "cold winters", and is overall cold during nights. The South of Egypt too. I have explained and shown this to you more than once.
Ps. I speak of personal experience, where you don't.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
So again, why is that all Africans need to have the same type of hair texture while living in a different ecosystem?
I said some indigenous Africans might have curly or bushy hair. And the Khosians have peppercorn. So there are four types I already mentioned so why are you straw maning?
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
Don't rush into straight hair, lets take it one step at a time.
let me know when you're ready
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol
Northeast Africa, Egypt has "cold winters", and is overall cold during nights. The South of Egypt too. I have explained and shown this to you more than once.
Nevertheless it's not as cold as Turkey, Afghanistan, Chicago, Russia. most of China
Maybe that's why you put "cold winter" in quotes
Winter in Egypt. don't forget your mittens. wool sweater and snow shovel
Troll Patty, show us some pictures of indengenous African Egyptians with straight hair
^^^ not people like this, bless his soul, who are half African half European
Why do you think the wooly Mammoth and other cold climate mammals have long hair? Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Why is Fletcher listed above as someone who opposes racial hair categorization?
Joann Fletcher, a consultant to the Bioanthropology Foundation in the UK, in what she calls an "absolute, thorough study of all ancient Egyptian hair samples" — relied on various techniques, such as electron microscopy and chromatography to analyze hair samples (Parks, 2000). She discovered that most of the natural hair types and those used for hairpieces were made of what she calls "Caucasian-type" hair, including even instances of blonde and red hair:
"The vast majority of hair samples discovered at the site were cynotrichous (Caucasian) in type as opposed to heliotrichous (Negroid), a feature which is standard through dynastic times." - Fletcher, Joann. (2002). "Ancient Egyptian Hair and Wigs", The Ostracon: The Journal of the Egyptian Study Society, xiii. 2.
Where is any of the above written, in this publication?
quote:Worse was to come. Zahi Hawass, secretary general of Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities (SCA) labeled the idea "pure fiction." Moreover, he disinvited Fletcher from future work in Egypt. Hawass explained this action in an article in the newspaper Al-Ahram: "There are more than 300 foreign expeditions currently working in Egypt, and they all follow the same guidelines. We grant concessions to any scholar affiliate to a scientific or educational institution, and it has long been accepted code of ethics that any discovery made during excavations should first be reported to the SCA. By going first to the press with what might be considered a great discovery, Dr. Fletcher broke the bond made by York University with the Egyptian authorities. And by putting out in the popular media what is considered by most scholars to be an unsound theory, Dr. Fletcher has broken the rules and therefore, at least until we have reviewed the situation with her university, she must be banned from working in Egypt." This action was attacked in a London Times article, prompting another response by Hawass in which serious questions were raised concerning Fletcher's training."
So again, why is that all Africans need to have the same type of hair texture while living in a different ecosystem?
I said some indigenous Africans might have curly or bushy hair. And the Khosians have peppercorn. So there are four types I already mentioned so why are you straw maning?
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
Don't rush into straight hair, lets take it one step at a time.
let me know when you're ready
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol
Northeast Africa, Egypt has "cold winters", and is overall cold during nights. The South of Egypt too. I have explained and shown this to you more than once.
Nevertheless it's not as cold as Turkey, Afghanistan, Chicago, Russia. most of China
Maybe that's why you put "cold winter" in quotes
Winter in Egypt. don't forget your mittens. wool sweater and snow shovel
Troll Patty, show us some pictures of indengenous African Egyptians with straight hair
^^^ not people like this, bless his soul, who are half African half European
Why do you think the wooly Mammoth and other cold climate mammals have long hair?
LOL
As aspected you are running from the questions, again as usually. With nonsense distractions about Turkey winters etc ...blah blah blah. It's relatively cold in the Sahara, but considering the high and low temperature it becomes extreme. At least it can get below zero. (I know, you don't). Therefore I can claim firmly, it's cold enough to bring physical change.
"wool sweater" your racist sarcasm will become your destruction. Because in fact people do wear winter jackets. Yes, those tick once. It's up just more evidence that you don't know what you're talking about! And no, we have never shown you Southern Egyptians with "curly-straight hair". src lol
Repeat,
- why is it not possible for Africans to have different hair texture when they live (and have lived) in different ecosystems.
I have need seen your testament on, perhaps you can link it.
quote:I said some indigenous Africans might have curly or bushy hair. And the Khosians have peppercorn. So there are four types I already mentioned so why are you straw maning?
But let's "hypothetically" say you did state: "some might have curly hair".
My next question becomes, how is this curly hair rooted in the fossil?
- can it be loose, or is it always tight?
You know how a pat can decapitation your head off, right? The chopping has begun.
Ps. Steady Patrolling!
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: ^ I am not talking about Native Americans or Chinese people, I am talking about Africans. Did you know that Africa is multiple times larger than China, and in case you didn't know China has multiple ethnic groups too, so it is with Native Americans. Also, mankind inhabited Africa much longer then these other places.
So again, why is that all Africans need to have the same type of hair texture while living in a different ecosystem?
Don't rush into straight hair, lets take it one step at a time. And no, I didn't mention dreadlocks.
Northeast Africa, Egypt has "cold winters", and is overall cold during nights. The South of Egypt too. I have explained and shown this to you more than once.
Ps. I speak of personal experience, where you don't.
Agreed...
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Troll show and prove
unless you can show me some a) photos of indigenous African adult males with straight hair from Egypt AND b) in the art I can't take you seriously
when I say straight I don't mean bushy stiff stuff. Hair that would grow downward if long enough and easily cover the shoulders.
Who are these people?
And clear photos none of this shadowy bad quality fuzzy stuff a) and b)
put up or shut up
thanks, lioness
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Troll show and prove
unless you can show me some a) photos of indigenous African adult males with straight hair from Egypt AND b) in the art I can't take you seriously
when I say straight I don't mean bushy stiff stuff. Hair that would grow downward if long enough and easily cover the shoulders.
Who are these people?
And clear photos none of this shadowy bad quality fuzzy stuff a) and b)
put up or shut up
thanks, lioness
LOL, at your distraction tactics. And running your ass off like hell!
It has been over a year now, and still no answer. To why is it not possible for Africans who live ( have lived) in different ecosystems to have different hair texture. LOL
Even Europeans who are used to "cold weather" wear winter jackets" including the "infamous wool sweaters", during the winter time in Egypt.lol Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^^ I gave you an answer you just think it's wrong. This is what you call running
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: "wool sweater" your racist sarcasm
you cry racism to easily, it's become a habit.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^^ I gave you an answer you just think it's wrong. This is what you call running
QUOTE]Originally posted by Troll Patrol: "wool sweater" your racist sarcasm
you cry racism to easily, it's become a habit. [/QUOTE]
You haven't answered my question, what you have done was divert and distract from the questions. And even became racist! Since my question has been, why do all Africans have to have the same hair texture despite of living (and have lived) in different ecosystems. Some times for thousands up thousands of years.
So, again, curly hair:
- can it be loose, or is it always tight in the root of the fossil?
quote: quote: I said some indigenous Africans might have curly or bushy hair.
And the Khosians have peppercorn.
So there are four types I already mentioned so why are you straw maning?
Btw, are mixed?lol
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
You haven't answered my question, what you have done was divert and distract from the questions. And even became racist!
So, again, curly hair:
- can it be loose, or is it always tight in the root of the fossil?
get your shyt together do you mean fossil or folicle?
and you continue "running" from straight hair, with the frizzy chicks up
I said adult males, photos
and in the art
and no frizzies
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
Troll Patrol, hair texture and skin hue has nothing to do with temperature, but UV Index or ground solar radiation level.
As you can see, Africa has the lowest UV Index spectrum diversity as a continent. Screaming "Africans are the most diverse!!!" every second doesn't change this fact.
Wherever you are in Africa - you're going to be exposed to sunlight and high UV radiation, even if you're standing on Mount Kilimanjaro which is cold...
Wavy/Straight hair and light skin did not evolve in Africa.
Dark skin and woolly/frizzy hair are native adaptations to the entire latitudes that cover Africa which extend across to India, and New Guinea.
" As a result of further investigations in the adjoining hills made this year, I was able to find 10 more individuals showing spirally curved hair, making a total of 16 (a little more than 10 per cent) out of 157 men and women measured. Of the 10 individuals found this year, 8 were Kadars, and the remaining two were a Pulayan and a Malser. The hair of all of these except two, who have very short spirals (Fig. 1a), are of frizzly type similar to that of the Melanesians (Fig. 1b), matching No. ‘g’ in Martin’s scheme (“Lehrbuch”, 2nd edition, vol. 1, p. 213)."
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
You haven't answered my question, what you have done was divert and distract from the questions. And even became racist!
So, again, curly hair:
- can it be loose, or is it always tight in the root of the fossil?
get your shyt together do you mean fossil or folicle?
and you continue "running" from straight hair, with the frizzy chicks up
I said adult males, photos
and in the art
and no frizzies
Yes I meant "follicle", I misspelled it. And so did you.
Now anwer my question.
Why is is it possible for Africans who live (have lived) in different ecosystems to have different hair texture.
I am still waiting...
Btw, if I post females (as I did) it's just as good, you dumbo!
You will not see makes with long hair like that in South of Egypt. At least, I personally have not seen this.
Arguing with me instead of answering me is nonsense, since you've already proven that you don't know anything about the region. This happend on multiple occations too.lol
So, again, curly hair:
- can it be loose, or is it always tight in the root of the follicle?
By the way, are you "mixed"?
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Troll Patrol, hair texture and skin hue has nothing to do with temperature, but UV Index or ground solar radiation level.
As you can see, Africa has the lowest UV Index spectrum diversity as a continent. Screaming "Africans are the most diverse!!!" every second doesn't change this fact.
Wherever you are in Africa - you're going to be exposed to sunlight and high UV radiation, even if you're standing on Mount Kilimanjaro which is cold...
Wavy/Straight hair and light skin did not evolve in Africa.
Dark skin and woolly/frizzy hair are native adaptations to the entire latitudes that cover Africa which extend across to India, and New Guinea.
" As a result of further investigations in the adjoining hills made this year, I was able to find 10 more individuals showing spirally curved hair, making a total of 16 (a little more than 10 per cent) out of 157 men and women measured. Of the 10 individuals found this year, 8 were Kadars, and the remaining two were a Pulayan and a Malser. The hair of all of these except two, who have very short spirals (Fig. 1a), are of frizzly type similar to that of the Melanesians (Fig. 1b), matching No. ‘g’ in Martin’s scheme (“Lehrbuch”, 2nd edition, vol. 1, p. 213)."
It has to do with UV. And UV has to do with climates, climates deal i.e. with temperature and other conditions such as humidity! Climates effect and can cause mutations (alleles / locus). Mutations bring change some fixed some unfixed, this is why we have different types of people all over the globe. Btw, this goes for flora and fauna also.lol
Bye bye!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Troll Patrol, hair texture and skin hue has nothing to do with temperature, but UV Index or ground solar radiation level.
yes less intensity of UV would require skin less dark skin and it also enables faster absorption of vitamin D in lower UV region
Now explain how hair texture has to do with UV when most scientists think it's temperature related
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Egypt Climate
Throughout Egypt, days are commonly warm or hot, and nights are cool. Egypt has only two seasons: a mild winter from November to April and a hot summer from May to October. The only differences between the seasons are variations in daytime temperatures and changes in prevailing winds. In the coastal regions, temperatures range between an average minimum of 14 C (57 F) in winter and an average maximum of 30 C (86 F) in summer.
Temperatures vary widely in the inland desert areas, especially in summer, when they may range from 7 C (45 F) at night to 43 C (109 F) during the day. During winter, temperatures in the desert fluctuate less dramatically, but they can be as low as 0 C (32 F) at night and as high as 18 C (64 F) during the day.
The average annual temperature increases moving southward from the Delta to the Sudanese border, where temperatures are similar to those of the open deserts to the east and west. In the north, the cooler temperatures of Alexandria during the summer have made the city a popular resort. Throughout the Delta and the northern Nile Valley, there are occasional winter cold spells accompanied by light frost and even snow. At Aswan, in the south, June temperatures can be as low as 10 C (50 F) at night and as high as 41 C (106 F) during the day when the sky is clear.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Now explain how hair texture has to do with UV when most scientists think it's temperature related
Northern latitudes have a low UV index. Light skin is a northern borealized adaptation to increase UV in-take, the same way straight-wavy hair textures better facilitate UV light into the hair root as Iyengar's (1998) experiment showed. Note that at northern latitudes, sunlight is reflected off snow/ice/frost - hence long lank hair over the face can absorb more UV, as opposed to spiralled or frizzy hair textures.
Iyengar, B. (1998). "The hair follicle is a specialized UV receptor in human skin?". Bio Signals Recep. 7(3): 188–194.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers:
quote:Now explain how hair texture has to do with UV when most scientists think it's temperature related
Northern latitudes have a low UV index. Light skin is a northern borealized adaptation to increase UV in-take, the same way straight-wavy hair textures better facilitate UV light into the hair root as Iyengar's (1998) experiment showed. Note that at northern latitudes, sunlight is reflected off snow/ice/frost - hence long lank hair over the face can absorb more UV, as opposed to spiralled or frizzy hair textures.
Iyengar, B. (1998). "The hair follicle is a specialized UV receptor in human skin?". Bio Signals Recep. 7(3): 188–194.
According to the recent single origin hypothesis, anatomically modern humans arose in East Africa approximately 200,000 years ago. Then, ~150,000 years later (i.e. around 50,000 years ago), sub-groups of this population began to expand our species' range to regions outside of, and (later) within, this continent (Tishkoff, 1996). For those members of this group who migrated far north (i.e. to northern Eurasia, etc.), the UV light of these regions was too weak to penetrate the highly pigmented skin of the initially (relatively) dark-skinned migrants so as to provide enough vitamin D for healthy bone development.[36] Malformed bones in the pelvic area were especially deadly for women because they interfered with the successful delivery of babies, leading to the death of both the mother and the infant during labor. Hence, those with less pigmented skin survived and had children at higher rates because their skin allowed more UV light for the production of vitamin D.[36] Thus, the skin of those in the group that left the African continent and went far north gradually developed adaptations for relatively greater translucence compared to equatorial hues. This enabled the passage of more UV light into the body at high latitudes, facilitating the natural human body-process of manufacturing vitamin D (which is essential for bone development) in response to said light.[36]
In this sense, the evidence with regard to the evolution of straight hair texture seems to support Jablonski's suggestions [36] that the need for vitamin D triggered the transition from dark to pale, translucent skin among modern humans. Specifically, the distribution of this trait suggests that this need may have (initially) grown so intense at certain (early) points that those among said (initially more deeply pigmented skinned) Northern-migrants with mutations for straighter hair survived and had children at (somewhat) higher rates. This early change in texture was likely subsequently followed by the accumulation of adaptively advantageous genetic changes that led to the above-mentioned skin-translucence. This argument is made based on the principle that straight fibers better facilitate the passage of UV light into the body relative to curly hair. It is substantiated by Iyengar's (1998) findings that UV light can pass through straight human hair roots in a manner similar to the way that light passes through fiber optic tubes (Iyengar, 1998).
Man with straight hair Nonetheless, some argue[who?] against this stance because straighter hair ends tend to point downward while fiber optics requires that light be transmitted at a high angle to the normal of the inner reflective surface. In light of this, they suggest that only light reflected from the ground could successfully enter the hair follicle and be transmitted down the shaft. Even this process, they argue, is hindered by the curvature at the base of the hair. Therefore, coupled with the amount of skin covered by long head hair, these factors seem to militate against the adaptive usefulness of straight hair at northern latitudes. They further argue[who?] that UV light also is poorly reflected from soil and dull surfaces. These ideas can be countered by the fact that during the winter, the time of year in which UV light is most scarce at northern latitudes, the ground is often covered with white snow. Given that white is the most effective color in terms of facilitating the reflection of ground light, the hypothesis that straight hair could have been adaptively favorable, cannot be fully discounted in this regard.[citation needed] In addition, as mentioned in the previous section, straight hair also may have contributed to enhanced comfort levels in the north. This is evident in the extent to which, relative to curly hair, it tends to provide a layer of protection for ears and necks against the cold.[citation needed]
The latter hypothesis seems the more plausible evolution determinant as the surface area of the head is minute compared to the remainder of the body, thus the energy required in producing long hair for the express purpose of "optical" amplification of UV light reflected from the snow seems counterproductive (however, it's very likely that the trait was sustained due to a nuanced combination of multiple influences, given that human hunting-skills and ingenuity were such by 50,000 years ago that said benefits in terms of 'comfort' could have alternatively been derived from constructing head and ear warmers of fur from prey, etc.). Scientists point to the fact that straight hair found in many ethnic groups is denser as well and has a greater ability to "show" as it does not coil, hence providing more warmth as the likely deterministic factor for the evolution of straight long hair. Some scientists argue that since the head and appendages are the greatest areas for heat loss from the body, the ability to grow long hair on the crown of the head as well as the face provides a distinct advantage in a cold climate. Since the main sensory organs are anatomically located on the head, long hair provides the necessary warmth and protection in a cold climate that allows the use of these organs by exposing them to the elements to "sense", in for example a hunt, yet still providing necessary warmth and protection to sustain prolonged exposure. It may be argued, therefore, that the ability to grow long, straight, densely packed hair provides a distinct evolutionary advantage in cold climate; however, it would be a distinct disadvantage in a hot climate, when compared to loosely packed, spongy, closely cropped hair.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,: ^^^ notice how Troll makes no statements just posts pictures as if we are supposed to guess what his stance is. timid
Actually Troll Patrol makes a lot statements more so than pictures, but apparently you like to focus on pictures like a small child than on text that makes sense of things.
quote:Did Hesire have an afro? I don't know for sure ask Djeshootme he knows everything
LOL Typical troll tactic of yours-- once you get busted you then deflect to other folks like myself. Of course I don't know "everything" just because I know significantly more than you (which is the case for average people). The general idea was that the afro is Hesira's natural hair since his ear shows while the others are wigs. Could Hesira be bald and the afro a wig as well? It's not impossible.
By the way, the wig above is NOT hair at all but plant material. This can seen by the the long even bands. If you know anything about Egyptian or even African wigs which use plant fibers you would know this.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fatheadbonkers: Troll Patrol, hair texture and skin hue has nothing to do with temperature, but UV Index or ground solar radiation level.
No sh|t! Of course UV rays affect the evolution of such traits, Troll Patrol told you this on the previous page! LOL
As you can see, Africa has the lowest UV Index spectrum diversity as a continent. Screaming "Africans are the most diverse!!!" every second doesn't change this fact.
Africa may have the lowest UV spectrum diversity, but as that map shows it still is the continent with the highest UV spectrum hence BLACK skin evolved among the human species who evolved on that continent. Also the reason why Africans are most diverse is because of the fact that they are oldest of human populations and thus the most genetically diverse. They are the oldest populations because again the human species evolved in Africa and non-Africans descend from only a small branch of East Africans who left the continent.
quote:Wherever you are in Africa - you're going to be exposed to sunlight and high UV radiation, even if you're standing on Mount Kilimanjaro which is cold...
Yet UV radiation on the continent depends on latitude. The higher the latitude the less UV rays.
quote:Wavy/Straight hair and light skin did not evolve in Africa.
Yet Khoisan are relatively light of course not as light as say northern Eurasians i.e. Europeans and East Asians, but still lighter than stereotypical black. And we have wavy hair existing among the blackest populations in the Sahara and Sahel who live in the most intense UV spectrum. What do you call that?
quote:Dark skin and woolly/frizzy hair are native adaptations to the entire latitudes that cover Africa which extend across to India, and New Guinea.
But so too is wavy/straight hair, again among black populations.
" As a result of further investigations in the adjoining hills made this year, I was able to find 10 more individuals showing spirally curved hair, making a total of 16 (a little more than 10 per cent) out of 157 men and women measured. Of the 10 individuals found this year, 8 were Kadars, and the remaining two were a Pulayan and a Malser. The hair of all of these except two, who have very short spirals (Fig. 1a), are of frizzly type similar to that of the Melanesians (Fig. 1b), matching No. ‘g’ in Martin’s scheme (“Lehrbuch”, 2nd edition, vol. 1, p. 213)."
Yet Melanesians are closest related to Australian aborigines who have wavy/straight hair. Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
Biol Signals Recept. 1998 May-Jun;7(3):188-94. The hair follicle: a specialised UV receptor in the human skin? Iyengar B. Source Institute of Pathology (ICMR), New Delhi, India. Abstract
quote: Coat colour changes in polar animals are related to seasonal variation in photic inputs. The present work was performed to study the photoresponses of hair follicular melanocytes in human skin. The melanocytes, being photosensitive cells, can function as UV biosensors, since dendrites extend towards the source of UV light. Fifty-one skin biopsies from the margin of vitiligo were subjected to whole skin organ cultures. These were exposed to a pulse of UV light to study hair bulb melanocytes in vitiligo. It is observed that the melanocytes are seen within the anagen matrix. These melanocytes are poorly dendritic in control and dark-incubated cultures. On UV exposure, they become highly dendritic, the dendrites extending towards the hair shaft in 93.5%. They show prominent catechol oxidase and noradrenaline positivity, all features of UV responsiveness. The melanocytes within the hair follicle are not directly exposed to UV light. The melanocyte dendricity and the alignment of dendrites towards the shaft on UV exposure indicate that the columns of the cells in the hair shaft act as an efficient fibre-optic system, transmitting UV light. Morphologically, the keratinocytes in the hair shaft are arranged in compressed linear columns which resemble the coaxial bundles of commercial fibre-optic strands as is observed in plants. Keratinocytes in the inner and outer sheaths do not show this arrangement. Thus the hair follicle functions as a specialised UV receptor in the skin responding to nuances of photic inputs in human skin. This is reflected in coat colour changes in animals exposed to large variations in day-night cycles.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
A number sign (#) is used with this entry because of evidence that variation in the SLC24A5 gene (609802) influences skin, hair, and eye pigmentation.
For a general phenotypic description and a discussion of genetic heterogeneity of variation in skin, hair, and eye pigmentation, see 227220.
Lighter variations of pigmentation in humans are associated with diminished number, size, and density of melanosomes, the pigmented organelles of the melanocytes. Lamason et al. (2005) showed that zebrafish 'golden' (slc24a5) mutants share these melanosomal changes. To evaluate the potential impact of SLC24A5 (609802) on the evolution of human skin pigmentation, Lamason et al. (2005) looked for polymorphisms within the gene. They noted that the G and A alleles of the single-nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) rs1426654 encoded an alanine or threonine, respectively, at amino acid 111 in the third exon of SLC24A5 (609802.0001). The allele frequency for the thr111 variant ranged from 98.7% to 100% among several European-American population samples, whereas the ancestral alanine allele had a frequency of 93 to 100% in African, indigenous American, and East Asian population samples. The difference in allele frequencies between the African and European populations at rs1426654 was consistent with the possibility that this SNP has been a target of natural or sexual selection.
Based on the average pigmentation difference between European-Americans and African Americans of about 30 melanin units, the results of Lamason et al. (2005) suggested that variation in SLC24A5 explains between 25 and 38% of the European-African difference in skin melanin index. Because Africans and East Asians share the ancestral ala111 allele of rs1426654 (609802.0001), this polymorphism cannot be responsible for the marked difference in skin pigmentation between these groups.
Stokowski et al. (2007) demonstrated an association between the SNP rs1426654 and skin pigmentation variation in individuals of South Asian descent.
Animal Model Lamason et al. (2005) stated that the zebrafish 'golden' phenotype causes hypopigmentation of skin melanophores and retinal pigment epithelium (RPE). The golden phenotype is characterized by delayed and reduced development of melanin pigmentation. At approximately 48 hours postfertilization, melanin pigmentation is evident in the melanophores and RPE of wildtype embryos but is not apparent in golden embryos. By 72 hours postfertilization, golden melanophores and RPE begin to develop pigmentation that is lighter than that of wildtype. In adult zebrafish, the melanophore-rich dark stripes are considerably lighter in golden compared with wildtype animals. The melanophores of golden zebrafish are thinner and contain fewer melanosomes, and melanosomes are smaller than wildtype, less electron dense, and irregularly shaped. Unlike mouse models of Hermansky-Pudlak syndrome (203300), in which defects in platelet-dense granules and lysosomes as well as melanosomes occur, the golden phenotype is not associated with any changes of thrombocyte number or function. Lamason et al. (2005) determined that the golden gene contains a tyrosine-to-stop mutation at amino acid 208.
REFERENCES 1. Lamason, R. L., Mohideen, M.-A. P. K., Mest, J. R., Wong, A. C., Norton, H. L., Aros, M. C., Jurynec, M. J., Mao, X., Humphreville, V. R., Humbert, J. E., Sinha, S., Moore, J. L., and 13 others. SLC24A5, a putative cation exchanger, affects pigmentation in zebrafish and humans. Science 310: 1782-1786, 2005. [PubMed: 16357253, related citations] [Full Text: HighWire Press]
2. Stokowski, R. P., Pant, P. V. K., Dadd, T., Fereday, A., Hinds, D. A., Jarman, C., Filsell, W., Ginger, R. S., Green, M. R., van der Ouderaa, F. J., Cox, D. R. A genomewide association study of skin pigmentation in a South Asian population. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 81: 1119-1132, 2007. [PubMed: 17999355, images, related citations] [Full Text: Elsevier Science]
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Wig of Princess Nany
King's Daughter of an unspecified king, though Winlock theorizes from circumstances that this king was Pinudjem I. This is generally accepted in current literature.
Period: Third Intermediate Period Dynasty: Dynasty 21 Reign: reign of Psusennes I Date: ca. 1040–992 B.C. Geography: Country of Origin Egypt, Upper Egypt; Thebes, Deir el-Bahri, Tomb of Meritamun (TT 358, MMA 65), inside coffin, MMA 1928–1929 Medium: Human hair, beeswax Dimensions: L. of longest braid: 25 cm (9 13/16 in) Credit Line: Rogers Fund, 1930 Accession Number: 30.3.35
This wig was found lying behind the head of Nany's mummy in her inner coffin. It is made of braids of human hair fastened at the top with a cord. The braids were treated with beeswax and a layer of animal fat covers the entire wig. [
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: As you can see, Africa has the lowest UV Index spectrum diversity as a continent.
Hence it has the smallest in situ pigmentation range. In sharp contrast the entire UV spectrum is found in Eurasia, from 1 - 11.
Caucasoids [who have climatic traits associated with West Eurasia] have the most pigmentation diversity, not Negroids -
UV Index:
Eurasia 1 - 11 (West Eurasia 2 - 11) Africa 7 - 11
quote:Africa may have the lowest UV spectrum diversity, but as that map shows it still is the continent with the highest UV spectrum hence BLACK skin evolved among the human species who evolved on that continent.
Black (very dark) skin evolved across that whole medial latitude, through to South Asia to most of Oceania, so it was never confined to Africa. Parts of Asia and Oceania at that latitude are UV Index 11+. Africa is not unique in anyway and as shown it has the lowest diversity in regards to UV level.
quote:Also the reason why Africans are most diverse is because of the fact that they are oldest of human populations and thus the most genetically diverse. They are the oldest populations because again the human species evolved in Africa and non-Africans descend from only a small branch of East Africans who left the continent.
That's nonsense and Afronut fantasy. Africa has more genetic diversity because of its central position [multidirectional gene flow as opposed to a peripheral location which only recieves gene flow one direction] and larger population size:
"The hallmarks of the Out of Africa hypothesis are also addressed by multiregional evolution: Low genetic diversity among human populations is explained through gene-flow rather than recency of origin, and the greater genetic diversity in Africa is explained by larger population size." (Caspari, 2008)
"A corollary of this is the expectation that genetic variation in Africa was always greater than elsewhere because of the larger populations, reduced selection at the species' center... Variation in the more peripheral human populations reflected small, oscillating, population sizes. Nearly all subsequent genetic analyses, mitochondrial and nuclear, have confirmed these expectations." (Wolpoff, 2000)
You've simply got "Blacks" on your mind, so much so, you've got this sick fantasy everyone evolved off them - despite no other race did.
Posted by Ponsford (Member # 20191) on :
Africans have the greatest genetic diversity:Genetic diversity in single nucleotide polymorphism;copy number variants;short tandem repeats;alu insertions and private haplotypes.Africans also have the least Linkage Disequilibrium in their genome and the least deleterious mutations.This confirm they are the basal group of our species-Homo Sapiens.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Africa has more genetic diversity
^^^^ clip and save for future use
Faheemdunkerologist admitting Africa has more genetic diversity
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fartheadbonkers: That's nonsense and Afronut fantasy. Africa has more genetic diversity because of its central position multi-directional gene flow as opposed to a peripheral location which only receives gene flow one direction] and larger population size:
"The hallmarks of the Out of Africa hypothesis are also addressed by multiregional evolution: Low genetic diversity among human populations is explained through gene-flow rather than recency of origin, and the greater genetic diversity in Africa is explained by larger population size." (Caspari, 2008)
"A corollary of this is the expectation that genetic variation in Africa was always greater than elsewhere because of the larger populations, reduced selection at the species' center... Variation in the more peripheral human populations reflected small, oscillating, population sizes. Nearly all subsequent genetic analyses, mitochondrial and nuclear, have confirmed these expectations." (Wolpoff, 2000)
You've simply got "Blacks" on your mind, so much so, you've got this sick fantasy everyone evolved off them - despite no other race did.
LMAOH
Of course I'm not surprised you deny virtually all scientific, including genetic findings that Africans are most diverse because they are the oldest populations and Eurasians descend from them. Instead you claim African diversity is due to "size" even though there are way more Eurasians than Africans.
I would recommend these books to your lame layman ass...
..but of course a lunatic racist like you prefers outdated and debunked works by Carleton Coon. Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
^ he openly admitted that his actual problem is, admitting that mankind came from Africa.
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: As you can see, Africa has the lowest UV Index spectrum diversity as a continent.
Hence it has the smallest in situ pigmentation range. In sharp contrast the entire UV spectrum is found in Eurasia, from 1 - 11.
Caucasoids [who have climatic traits associated with West Eurasia] have the most pigmentation diversity, not Negroids -
UV Index:
Eurasia 1 - 11 (West Eurasia 2 - 11) Africa 7 - 11
quote:Africa may have the lowest UV spectrum diversity, but as that map shows it still is the continent with the highest UV spectrum hence BLACK skin evolved among the human species who evolved on that continent.
Black (very dark) skin evolved across that whole medial latitude, through to South Asia to most of Oceania, so it was never confined to Africa. Parts of Asia and Oceania at that latitude are UV Index 11+. Africa is not unique in anyway and as shown it has the lowest diversity in regards to UV level.
quote:Also the reason why Africans are most diverse is because of the fact that they are oldest of human populations and thus the most genetically diverse. They are the oldest populations because again the human species evolved in Africa and non-Africans descend from only a small branch of East Africans who left the continent.
That's nonsense and Afronut fantasy. Africa has more genetic diversity because of its central position [multidirectional gene flow as opposed to a peripheral location which only recieves gene flow one direction] and larger population size:
"The hallmarks of the Out of Africa hypothesis are also addressed by multiregional evolution: Low genetic diversity among human populations is explained through gene-flow rather than recency of origin, and the greater genetic diversity in Africa is explained by larger population size." (Caspari, 2008)
"A corollary of this is the expectation that genetic variation in Africa was always greater than elsewhere because of the larger populations, reduced selection at the species' center... Variation in the more peripheral human populations reflected small, oscillating, population sizes. Nearly all subsequent genetic analyses, mitochondrial and nuclear, have confirmed these expectations." (Wolpoff, 2000)
You've simply got "Blacks" on your mind, so much so, you've got this sick fantasy everyone evolved off them - despite no other race did.
Heck...Just check out this documentary and how they portray the first humans as African/black.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIj50x5F8Ig Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: [QB] ^ he openly admitted that his actual problem is, admitting that mankind came from Africa.
? I've said Homo sapiens originated in Africa from the start.
What i'm against is afrolunacy which posits the earliest humans were somehow "Black".
How can you have a race (subspecies) before a species? It makes no sense whatsoever. Tell a biologist that, and he/she will laugh.
The races were only formed through vicariance [population divergence] as they moved into new areas and became enough isolated to pass as a subspecies, aquiring new phenotypic traits through adaptations.
As I said, you can't have a "Black" race, giving birth to other races. That's anti-biology. Species give birth to races, not races, hence races are subspecies.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: [QB] ^ he openly admitted that his actual problem is, admitting that mankind came from Africa.
? I've said Homo sapiens originated in Africa from the start.
What i'm against is afrolunacy which posits the earliest humans were somehow "Black".
How can you have a race (subspecies) before a species? It makes no sense whatsoever. Tell a biologist that, and he/she will laugh.
The races were only formed through vicariance [population divergence] as they moved into new areas and became enough isolated to pass as a subspecies, aquiring new phenotypic traits through adaptations.
As I said, you can't have a "Black" race, giving birth to other races. That's anti-biology. Species give birth to races, not races, hence races are subspecies.
On what continent did the first race of humans exist on and what was the race choosing from all the current racial terms?
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
^ Who denies Homo sapiens appeared in Africa?
Although there is this guy:
quote:"Contrary to the popular belief that humans originated from the African continent, a recent study by an anthropologist from Allahabad University (AU) suggests that the Andaman and Nicobar Islands and the South Asian Islands witnessed the genesis of mankind.
According to Prof Vijoy Shankar Sahay, HoD of the department of Anthropology of AU, suggests that the twin island along with Malaysia, Philippines, Papna and New Guinea, Australia and the Tasmania, were among the regions where the earlier mankind evolved and spread to various parts of the world.
I've got a 1980 book by a Chinese palaeoanthropologist also placing it in South Asia.
Here's the map:
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: [QB] ^ Who denies Homo sapiens appeared in Africa?
Although there is this guy:
quote:"Contrary to the popular belief that humans originated from the African continent, a recent study by an anthropologist from Allahabad University (AU) suggests that the Andaman and Nicobar Islands and the South Asian Islands witnessed the genesis of mankind.
According to Prof Vijoy Shankar Sahay, HoD of the department of Anthropology of AU, suggests that the twin island along with Malaysia, Philippines, Papna and New Guinea, Australia and the Tasmania, were among the regions where the earlier mankind evolved and spread to various parts of the world.
I've got a 1980 book by a Chinese palaeoanthropologist also placing it in South Asia.
So the Andaman Islanders may have been the first race?
How many other obsolete debunked pre-current genetics theories will you now look for?
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
^ I research them purely out of interest. It doesn't mean I agree with them.
Goodman. Jeffrey. (1981). American Genesis: The American Indian and the Origins of Modern Man. Summit Books.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^^^ like I said now you are throwing out every fringe theory you can find
Most archaeologists agree that the practice of psychic archaeology can be categorized in the realm of pseudoscience and thus Goodman has received much criticism.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: [QB] ^ he openly admitted that his actual problem is, admitting that mankind came from Africa.
? I've said Homo sapiens originated in Africa from the start.
What i'm against is afrolunacy which posits the earliest humans were somehow "Black".
How can you have a race (subspecies) before a species? It makes no sense whatsoever. Tell a biologist that, and he/she will laugh.
The races were only formed through vicariance [population divergence] as they moved into new areas and became enough isolated to pass as a subspecies, aquiring new phenotypic traits through adaptations.
As I said, you can't have a "Black" race, giving birth to other races. That's anti-biology. Species give birth to races, not races, hence races are subspecies.
You write laughable crap, as ussually!
In the past couple of yours we have reviewed.
-The tropical adaption of early mankind. Due to tropical adaptation.
-The dark hue (melanin), to protect from UV radiation.
Keep posting more excuses.
Ge·net·ics (j-ntks) n. 1. (used with a sing. verb) The branch of biology that deals with heredity, especially the mechanisms of hereditary transmission and the variation of inherited characteristics among similar or related organisms. 2. (used with a pl. verb) The genetic constitution of an individual, group, or class.
A geneticist is a specialist in the field of genes and heredity. A geneticist has a background in science, usually within chemistry or biology. If you are interested in biology, genetics, and the wider applications of these subjects, then you might like to become a geneticist.
If you are interested in becoming a geneticist, regardless of your eventual career path, you should start by taking plenty of math and science courses in high school, especially biology and chemistry. In college, biology, chemistry, and biochemistry are popular majors for those interested in genetics careers. Larger institutions may offer more specialized majors such as genetics or molecular biology. Again, you will need to take plenty of math and science classes, and do well in these classes. With your undergraduate science degree, many paths in genetics are open to you!
--Norman A. Johnson (2007) Darwinian Detectives: Revealing the Natural History of Genes and Genomes pg100
Figure 1: Archaeological evidence for modern behaviour in early Homo sapiens.
From
Palaeoanthropology: Sharpening the mind Sally McBrearty Nature 491, 531–532 (22 November 2012) doi:10.1038/nature11751 Figure 1: Archaeological evidence for modern behaviour in early Homo sapiens.
quote: According to the fossil record, modern human anatomy dates to approximately 200,000 years ago2. The archaeological evidence that is used to determine the time and pattern of the emergence of modern human thought and behaviour comes in the form of the production of microliths (small stone tools); the use of ochre (haematite) as a pigment; the decoration of objects with incised motifs; and the creation of shell beads. The coastal site of Pinnacle Point in South Africa contains colouring materials4, and Brown et al.1 now describe microliths from this site. Other site locations are: Twin Rivers, Zambia; Kalambo Falls, Zambia; Howiesons Poort, South Africa; Sibudu, South Africa; Mumba, Tanzania; Enkapune ya Muto, Kenya; Klasies, South Africa; Kapthurin Formation, Kenya; Blombos, South Africa; Diepkloof, South Africa; Skhul, Israel; and Taforalt, Morocco.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: ^ Who denies Homo sapiens appeared in Africa?
Although there is this guy:
quote:"Contrary to the popular belief that humans originated from the African continent, a recent study by an anthropologist from Allahabad University (AU) suggests that the Andaman and Nicobar Islands and the South Asian Islands witnessed the genesis of mankind.
According to Prof Vijoy Shankar Sahay, HoD of the department of Anthropology of AU, suggests that the twin island along with Malaysia, Philippines, Papna and New Guinea, Australia and the Tasmania, were among the regions where the earlier mankind evolved and spread to various parts of the world.
Science 11 May 2001: Vol. 292 no. 5519 pp. 1151-1153 DOI: 10.1126/science.1060011
REPORT
African Origin of Modern Humans in East Asia: A Tale of 12,000 Y Chromosomes Yuehai Ke1,*, Bing Su2,1,3,*, Xiufeng Song1, Daru Lu1, Lifeng Chen1, Hongyu Li1, Chunjian Qi1, Sangkot Marzuki4, Ranjan Deka5, Peter Underhill6, Chunjie Xiao7, Mark Shriver8, Jeff Lell9, Douglas Wallace9, R Spencer Wells10, Mark Seielstad11, Peter Oefner6, Dingliang Zhu12, Jianzhong Jin1, Wei Huang12,13, Ranajit Chakraborty3, Zhu Chen12,13, Li Jin1,3,13,† + Author Affiliations
1 State Key Laboratory of Genetic Engineering, Institute of Genetics, School of Life Sciences, Fudan University, 220 Handan Road, Shanghai, China 200443, and Morgan-Tan International Center for Life Sciences, Shanghai, China. 2 Kunming Institute of Zoology, the Chinese Academy of Sciences, Kunming, China. 3 Human Genetics Center, University of Texas–Houston, 1200 Herman Pressler E547, Houston, TX 77030, USA. 4 Eijkman Institute for Molecular Biology, Jakarta, Indonesia. 5 Department of Environmental Health, University of Cincinnati, Cincinnati, OH 45267, USA. 6 Department of Genetics, Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305, USA. 7 Department of Biology, Yunnan University, Kunming, China. 8 Department of Anthropology, Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802, USA. 9 Center for Molecular Medicine, Emory University School of Medicine, Atlanta, GA 30322, USA. 10 Wellcome Trust Center for Human Genetics, University of Oxford, UK. 11 Program for Population Genetics, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, MA 02115, USA. 12 Shanghai Second Medical University, Shanghai, China. 13 National Human Genome Center at Shanghai, China.
ABSTRACT
quote: To test the hypotheses of modern human origin in East Asia, we sampled 12,127 male individuals from 163 populations and typed for three Y chromosome biallelic markers (YAP, M89, and M130). All the individuals carried a mutation at one of the three sites. These three mutations (YAP+, M89T, and M130T) coalesce to another mutation (M168T), which originated in Africa about 35,000 to 89,000 years ago. Therefore, the data do not support even a minimal in situ hominid contribution in the origin of anatomically modern humans in East Asia.
New Genetics Evidence Proves African Origin of Modern Chinese
quote:
Modern humans, or Homo sapiens, might migrate from Africa into China by way of Southeast Asia between 18,000 years and 60,000 years ago, researchers say.
This latest research finding by Chinese scientists and their international colleagues concluded that modern humans might have moved from Africa to China replacing Mono erectus (archaic upright- walking human beings) there to become the ancestors of the country 's modern humans.
The conclusion is based on the comparison and analysis of Y- chromosome DNA using samples of the extant 88 populations living in East Asia, Southeast Asia and the Oceania, says Li Jin, one of the Chinese researchers of the study "Chinese Human Genome Diversity Project."
Li Jin is a professor of both the National Human Genome Center in Shanghai and the Institute of Genetics of Fudan University.
Scientists found that the variations of Y-chromosome in north China are derived from those in south China, a result proved as that a small number of settlers of African origin moved to northern China due to the hurdle of the mighty Yangtze River. And Polynesians, who live in the islands in the Pacific Ocean, are found to have different Y-chromosome to Taiwanese, forcing scientists to reconsider the hypothsis that Polynesians were descendants of ancestral Taiwanese aborigines.
As a whole, nearly all Y-chromosome variations in East Asia and the Oceania could be found among those in Southeast Asia, adds Li Jin.
So, the findings also indicate that modern humans migrated from Africa to Southeast Asia nearly 60,000 years ago.
Subsequently, the migrants were believed to have headed for two directions: one moved northwards to south China and then spread to the country's northern areas by crossing the Yangtze River, and the other went to Indonesia and ultimately reached the Oceania.
The Y-chromosome research is an important method for tracing the human migration patterns and the findings make clear the relationships between people groups in Southeast Asia, and East Asia and the Oceania, says another major Chinese researcher Jiayou Chu, who is a professor of the Chinese Academy of Medical Sciences.
This latest research result was published in today's issue of the Proceeding of National Academy of Sciences, a U.S. journal.
The finding means that scientists have made headway in the pursuit of human origin, though the conclusion that modern Chinese human beings migrated from Africa still remains controversial, says academician of the Chinese Academy of Sciences Zhu Chen, who is also the director of Shanghai's National Human Genome Center.
In 1987, the U.S.'s scientists brought forward a theory based on mitochondrial DNA evidence that all human beings originated in Africa and later migrated to other corners of the globe. In the intentional academic circles, few arguments were raised about the theory that all palaeoanthropic mankind originated in Africa. Meanwhile, the scientists note that fossils of Peking Man who lived 500,000 years ago and Yuanmao Man over 1.7 million years ago were found in China, but both lack any direct hereditary connection with modern Chinese man.
There is a disconnection or "faultage" in fossils of palaeoanthropic Chinese who lived some 60,000 to 100,000 years ago, researchers say.
Coinciding with the fossil record, Chinese scientists discovered last year that primitive elements of DNA found in modern Chinese are identical with those found in Africans.
The discovery has provided weighty evidence on the genetic basis for the theory that modern Chinese were not evolved from the archaic upright-walking human beings in China but originated in Africa.
From what I understand, this texture can be achieved artificially on kinky afro type hair by braiding it and then after a while unbraiding it. Certain gels i.e. butter or fat can then be applied to retain as well as smooth out the look.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^ Here's the Mummy of Queen Tiye
.
Now look at this relief sculpture of Queen Tiye:
Perhaps she is younger here but regardless>
^^^her hair here is in a configuration we see frequently, similar to this painting of Nefertiti:
Nefertiti
It's the long hair that that is spilt momentarily by the shoulder into two large sections. Part of the hair is in front of the shoulder and part is behind
^^^^ Even with Anubis the same thing, part of the hair hangs in front of the shoulder, part behind
,
,
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djhoopti:
Swenet I've noticed that Djehootie will post the above as examples of straight hair in indigenous Africans ( or what he prefers to call it "wavy" or whatever)
Yet at the same time he never supports the idea that any given piece of ancient Egyptian artwork is depicting the above type of hair.
As far as Egyptian pre-late period artwork goes he seems never to have thought that a single painting or sculpture depicts anything but curly or kinky hair in Egyptians (particularly in males)
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^^ Will you for once in your life stop lying about what others profess or claim?? I don't think you can as you are so habitual in that M.O. of yours as it seems to be a deep seated psychological affliction.
What I actually profess is quite simple. Ancient Egyptian hair types likely reflect what we see today among modern non-Arab Egyptians-- that is kinky or tightly curled hair was predominant though wavy hair still occurred especially in the south where it is more common.
Actually there IS Egyptian artwork which shows wavy type hair, I actually cited a few examples from paintings a couple of pages ago, but apparently your lyinass has poor memory as well. LOL
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,:
^^^ Here's the Mummy of Queen Tiye
Now look at this relief sculpture of Queen Tiye:
Perhaps she is younger here but regardless
What is portrayed in the relief is likely a wig and in fact may not be hair at all but plant material. The reason why is because there is NO representation whatsoever of any hair strands let alone texture. Plant wigs that consist of large flaps of sheet was commonly worn by elite.
quote:^^^her hair here is in a configuration we see frequently, similar to this painting of Nefertiti:
Nefertiti
It's the long hair that that is split momentarily by the shoulder into two large sections. Part of the hair is in front of the shoulder and part is behind
Actually, the image is of Ramose II's wife Nefertari, though from this view I really can't tell if that is a wig or her natural hair.
quote:
^^^^ Even with Anubis the same thing, part of the hair hangs in front of the shoulder, part behind
LOL You are so ignorant! That is most definitely a wig! Not only can you tell by by the blue coloring and the perfectly even jet straight striations, but also because of the fact that all totemic animal headed masks had plant fiber material attached. This Egyptian development is a more advanced form of the simple animal masks with long grass or fronds attached.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
As anyone can see the lyinass is obviously ignorant of the fact that Egyptians made use of wigs made of plant fiber and cannot tell the difference between actual hair and plant fiber material.
But here again are a couple examples from paintings:
^ Note the old farmer in the second picture with baldness.
Now here are a couple examples from wall reliefs from my own personal collection.
two scribes
two daughters of Tiye and Amenhotep III
^ Note the two princesses have side pieces that are styled perhaps braided and then unbraided and the top part perhaps gelled (?), but definitely natural waves.
And then we even have a few examples of Delta folks with loose hair from the Narmer Palette:
Note the resemblance these early Delta dwellers have with Tjehenu Libyans such as the man below.
Of course there's the theory that early Delta folks share ancestry with Libyans. A theory that I support.
But it comes to show that wavy hair is not the only trait shared by some Egyptians and Nubians but Libyans as well.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: As anyone can see the lyinass is obviously ignorant of the fact that Egyptians made use of wigs made of plant fiber and cannot tell the difference between actual hair and plant fiber material.
But here again are a couple examples from paintings:
^ Note the old farmer in the second picture with baldness.
I assume you are saying pictures above are natural not wigs. The man at top has straight hair What accounts for the hair color ?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
And then we even have a few examples of Delta folks with loose hair from the Narmer Palette:
Note the resemblance these early Delta dwellers have with Tjehenu Libyans such as the man below.
Of course there's the theory that early Delta folks share ancestry with Libyans. A theory that I support.
But it comes to show that wavy hair is not the only trait shared by some Egyptians and Nubians but Libyans as well. [/QB]
^^^ This is apprently straight hair rather than wavy hair
^^^ when looking at hair like this generally on many Egyptian artworks since texture is not indicated it could be straight or braided kinky hair.
Then referring to the mummy we see it was neither it was wavy. So as I always tell you you can't assume
Dejehootie here trying to sub Libyans for Egyptians if not Libyan a farm worker ?slave
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djeshootme:
You are so ignorant! That is most definitely a wig! Not only can you tell by by the blue coloring and the perfectly even jet straight striations, but also because of the fact that all totemic animal headed masks had plant fiber material attached. This Egyptian development is a more advanced form of the simple animal masks with long grass or fronds attached.
you are suggesting that the above is a artwork of a man wearing an Aunbis mask rather than the real Anubis? That's extremely dumb. The other scenario is that the God Anubis wore a wig. Also extremely dumb Man with tiny head wearing Anubis mask with wig on attached to it , Museum Dehootie, Memphis, TN
.
Man with green makeup on impersonating Osiris, Museum Dehootie, Memphis, TN
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^^Swenet, do you think it possible that the "not afro" or "bobbed" look is the result of frizzy hair combed down such as these modern examples?
Sure its possible, but its inconsistent with the total picture. In 2d they might look like that, but when you look at 3d wooden figures where their hair is long enough to distinguish clearly between the ambiguous short hairstyles that could both be kinky and a non-kinky, the examples just don't cut it (falls straight down, without extending left and right like in your photos):
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Right. I get what you're saying.
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,:
I assume you are saying pictures above are natural not wigs. The man at top has straight hair What accounts for the hair color?
Don't play dumb, lying trick. Anyone can see that the paint is faded or eroded as we told your lyinass this multiple times including a couple of pages ago in this very thread!
quote:
^^^ This is apparently straight hair rather than wavy hair.
LOL One can easily see by the strands that the hair may be combed straight but still has was originally wavy. The hair is no more straight than the hair of the Malian girls I posted.
quote:
^^^ when looking at hair like this generally on many Egyptian artworks since texture is not indicated it could be straight or braided kinky hair.
Dumb trick, didn't I say that when 'hair' is shown without any texture at all, then it's not really hair but a PLANT fiber wig or headdress! Plant fiber wigs give that impression i.e. no indication of texture or strands OR perfectly even strands that fall at a certain length.
quote:Then referring to the mummy we see it was neither it was wavy. So as I always tell you you can't assume.
I never assumed anything from the artwork that was YOU, dummy!
quote:Dejehootie here trying to sub Libyans for Egyptians if not Libyan a farm worker ?slave
WTF are you talking about? I showed examples of farmers from Upper Egypt, you twit!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,: you are suggesting that the above is a artwork of a man wearing an Aunbis mask rather than the real Anubis? That's extremely dumb. The other scenario is that the God Anubis wore a wig. Also extremely dumb Man with tiny head wearing Anubis mask with wig on attached to it , Museum Dehootie, Memphis, TN
Man with green makeup on impersonating Osiris, Museum Dehootie, Memphis, TN
LMAO The only one extremely dumb here is YOU! I never said the personage portrayed was a man in a mask and not the god himself! I merely made the point that when totemic animals gods are portrayed by humans in masks they aren't shown with human hair at all but have streams of plant material. My point is that when animal gods are portrayed anthropomorphically art the same is true-- that is not actual hair but plant fiber headdresses.
It's simple. Animals like jackals don't have long hair like humans!
And birds like falcons have NO hair at all but feathers, yet look how the falcon-headed Mentu is portrayed.
Get a clue dumb B|tch! The Egyptians let alone their animal gods do NOT have this long flowing silky hair that Eurasians such as yourself have. LOL
Here is a West African mask depicting a deity with yellow plant fibers
If the god above were depicted in painting, the lyinass would assume the deity has long blonde hair. LOL Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: My point is that when animal gods are portrayed anthropomorphically art the same is true-- that is not actual hair but plant fiber headdresses.
It's simple. Animals like jackals don't have long hair like humans!
^^^^so dumb it's laughable. Jackals don't have human bodies either
Anubis is part man part jackal, hense human hair dimwit
yes and this is how plant fiber looks
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the desperate lyinass grasping for anything: ^^^^so dumb it's laughable. Jackals don't have human bodies either
Anubis is part man part jackal, hence human hair dimwit
LMAO You don't get it, do you?! Anubis is actually neither a man nor a jackal. The jackal was his sacred animal and as such, he was often depicted in complete jackal form. When he was depicted with a human body his HEAD was still jackal. Again Jackals do not have long hair but as traditional in African societies gods depicted with human bodies (whether the head is animal or not) had HEADDRESSES plant material NOT actual hair!
quote: yes and this is how plant fiber looks
LMAO Plant fibers vary depending on the actual plant, dummy! Not all plant fibers are yellow or even look like that. The ones the Egyptians used are clear from the depictions of their deities.
Other examples of African plant headdresses or wigs.
Lyinass productions flushed down the toilet yet again. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
I assume you are saying pictures above are natural not wigs. The man at top left has straight hair What accounts for the hair color?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
the paint is faded or eroded
If the paint faded on the hair of the man at top left whate was the probable original color of the hair?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LOL B|tch quit playing dumb! I know you're stupid, but you aren't that stupid! What do you think the original color was?! Note that even the grapes the man is picking is faded too. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
To the intelligent folks in this forum: I have seen examples from Diop of plant fiber wigs worn by West Africans that are strikingly similar to the ones worn by Egyptians. Can anyone find any photos of these??
This is the only one I can find:
Note the one worn by the girl above is a shorter version. I've seen longer larger shaped versions more similar to Egyptians.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Djehootie provides no images of a straight hair Egyptian plant fiber wig. He claims that if an Egyptian is wearing one that it is not intended to look like hair. It's supposed to look like a plant on somebodys head. It's a reference to plants
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
I assume you are saying pictures above are natural not wigs. The man at top left has straight hair What accounts for the hair color?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
the paint is faded or eroded
If the paint faded on the hair of the man at top left whate was the probable original color of the hair?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ LOL B|tch quit playing dumb! I know you're stupid, but you aren't that stupid! What do you think the original color was?! Note that even the grapes the man is picking is faded too.
^^^^ notice how he won't answer the question because he knows he is bullshyting
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Lioness, LOL. The man on the top left is wearing braids. Same for the balding man below.
Straight/wavy European-type hair is what you see on Greek and Roman murals not the kind of braided African hair you see on the AE murals. In fact, unbraided hair is what you see on the head of the man to the right. The artist is simply saying that some Egyptians braid their hair and others not.
We have seen so many AE murals that we should know by now the type of hair and hairstyles worn by the generic Egyptian.
Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
What a beautiful African mask.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^^ I take it then all the intelligent folks have left. LOL
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,:
Djehootie provides no images of a straight hair Egyptian plant fiber wig.
Am I suppose to do such?? Here then:
One knowledgeable in Egyptian wigs can tell that these are plant fiber wigs because no indication of texture is given. Usually the curls of Egyptian women's hair can be seen in the outline as well as the ends of the hair strands. In wigs where the outline is completely straight and there's no indication of strands they are wigs of plant fibers similar to the one the African girl below wears only larger and with longer sheets.
Note "straight hair plant fiber wig" is an oxymoron. If the wig is plant fiber, then it is NOT hair then! Note also the god Heru (Horus) above with his multicolored stripes. According to lyinass idiots this must mean Horus had long multicolored "hair". LOL
quote:He claims that if an Egyptian is wearing one that it is not intended to look like hair. It's supposed to look like a plant on somebody's head. It's a reference to plants
Of course the lyinass statement about what I "claim" is only partially correct. Yes a plant wig is not suppose to look like hair, at least not exactly. If anything it is a stylish headdress. By your reasoning West Africans who also traditionally wear such wigs must do so to emulate "straight hair" also! LOL Diop tackles this lie on his section on Egyptian wigs in his Origins of African Civilization book.
quote:Lyinass quoted:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ LOL B|tch quit playing dumb! I know you're stupid, but you aren't that stupid! What do you think the original color was?! Note that even the grapes the man is picking is faded too.
^^^^ notice how he won't answer the question because he knows he is bullshyting
The only one bullsh|ting is YOU, b|tch! Your question is on what the original hair color of the grape picker is suppose to be is so stupid that it is rhetorical. Of course the answer is BLACK. Black is the typical color for ancient Egyptian hair like all Africans. That YOUR dumbass claims it to be blonde even though Egyptians are never portrayed as blonde in art and despite the fact that parts of the painting have eroded paint including the grapes, apparently means nothing to your lying dumbass.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Lioness, LOL. The man on the top left is wearing braids. Same for the balding man below.
Those are NOT braids. Braids can easily be made out as exactly that. What is portrayed are strands of straight hair. And that a balding man has braids around his bald spot is laughable! LOL
quote:Straight/wavy European-type hair is what you see on Greek and Roman murals not the kind of braided African hair you see on the AE murals. In fact, unbraided hair is what you see on the head of the man to the right. The artist is simply saying that some Egyptians braid their hair and others not.
I suggest you go back and read this thread from the beginning or at least read those relevant posts made by Swenet, Zaharan, Troll Patrol, I and other intelligent posters put. Straight/wavy hair DOES occur as an indigenous trait among certain Africans including Nubians and those further south in Sub-Sahara.
quote:We have seen so many AE murals that we should know by now the type of hair and hairstyles worn by the generic Egyptian.
Indeed we do.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
Back on hair styles,
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
I see the lyinass has no response to the valid and logical answers I gave.
I wonder if she still thinks the headdress of deities with animal heads is still "hair".
^ maxillary (upper nasal) prognathism and platyrrhine.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: ^ maxillary (upper nasal) prognathism and platyrrhine.
what about it?
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
^lol. Go figure!
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: ^ maxillary (upper nasal) prognathism and platyrrhine.
what about it?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^ what are you trying yo say here? dom't be shy spell it out
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ What were YOU trying to say with that photo of the wooden bust. I disagree with Troll Patrol that it's platyrhinne or even prognathic but the features are obviously those of an African.
I find it funny post a photo of that wooden bust while ignoring my debunking that totemic animal headed gods had "long straight hair" instead of headdresses. Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^ what are you trying yo say here? dom't be shy spell it out
Title: El-Amarna style head (wood)
Primary creator: Egyptian School
Nationality: Egyptian
Description: Tete en bois, style d'el Amarna
Location: Louvre, Paris, France
A picture speaks more than a thousand words. As I wrote before, I have seen thousands upon thousands of statues and artwork in Egypt itself. I know what they look like on average.
Btw, it's "don't".
Back to ancient hair, and wigs.
quote:Wigs were made of human hair, although some vegetable-fibre padding was also used T. The wig illustrated has a mass of lightish curls on top and a multitude of thin, tight plaits below ear level. The foundation for these elements was a net woven of plaited human hair, with rhomboidal openings, The wig comprises about 300 strands, each of which contains about 400 individual hairs. These have been coated with a mixture of beeswax and resin,. To attach the strand to the net, some of the hairs were looped over the netting while the rest of the strand was whipped round the loop. This was then waxed to fix the strand in place. The melting point of the max is about 50 degrees Celsius, so it was unlikely to melt even on the hottest Egyptian day.
quote: Ancient Egyptians of all classes wore wigs. Wigs disguised deformities, guarded against lice, and made the hair look thicker, which was considered attractive. The Ancient Egyptian nobility also favoured very elaborate hairstyles, which were easier to construct and maintain with wigs. High-quality wigs were made from human hair and could be afforded only by the rich. This false fringe of curly hair was found in the tomb of an Ancient Egyptian king, Zer, at Abydos. It dates from about 4,700 B.C.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ What were YOU trying to say with that photo of the wooden bust. I disagree with Troll Patrol
I put it up to show a haircut shape and the sculpture doesn't indicate what texture it was. Notable is the sharp straight cut off line at the end of the hair. Even better shown in this angle: Then Troll went off topic on a tangent about in his view, true negro features
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
I find it funny post a photo of that wooden bust while ignoring my debunking that totemic animal headed gods had "long straight hair" instead of headdresses.
No reply was necessary since you debunked yourself with that one. I moved on
lioness productions
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
^LOL at the above.
Nowhere did I write "true negro" features. It's you and your alter ego names, who is doing this all the time, Impostor.
I wrote, maxillary (upper nasal prognathism) and platyrrhine. These are common traits within African populations. Which is a FACT. This is why a posted a Roman statue as comparison, showing leptorrhine.LOL
Let's have a closer inspection.
Note the maxillary!
Here are some authentic hair styles, similar to ancient wigs. Note the maxillary.lol
Anyway, to post a wooden craft head for comparison of what the hair texture "may could have been" tells something about your intelligence. It's low, very low. lol
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
Back to the topic at hand.
"Notable is the sharp straight cut off line at the end of the hair." lol. They are "blonde" too. lol
Forgive me for raining on certain people's parades here, but I've been able to confirm that the Egyptian mummy hair we're arguing over isn't exactly in top condition. I was able to get a hold of Brothwell and Spearman's article on ancient hair at the UCSD library, and they mention that Egyptian hairs, most of all those from the predynastic, have suffered "cuticular erosion". Given that cuticular erosion appears in artificially straightened hair, this doesn't exactly bolster the argument that these people had naturally straight or wavy hair. As an aside, Brothwell and Spearman also report that hair size might also change in post-mortem conditions.
Mind you, my position is not that dark-skinned African people can't have wavy hair. I'm sure the Africans aboriginal to the Saharan latitudes have evolved it a long time ago. I do question whether ancient Egyptians and Nubians were exclusively of Saharan (as opposed to sub-Saharan) descent though. You'd think that once the tropical monsoon moved north and turned the desert green, more than a few sub-Saharan people with kinky hair would have followed it and settled in the Nile Valley.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
^No, the ancient Egyptians weren't solely of Sahara-Sahel descent. But they were amongst those who founded the early civilization. And do have the largest stem, all throughout the Nile civilization.
Thanks for your contribution.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: ^No, the ancient Egyptians weren't solely of Sahara-Sahel descent. But they were amongst those who founded the early civilization. And do have the largest stem, all throughout the Nile civilization.
Thanks for your contribution.
who else were the ancient Egyptians prior to the late period comprised of other than people of Sahara-Sahel descent?
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: ^No, the ancient Egyptians weren't solely of Sahara-Sahel descent. But they were amongst those who founded the early civilization. And do have the largest stem, all throughout the Nile civilization.
Thing is that even those Sahara-Sahel people had to come from somewhere. While there probably were small communities of people already eking out an existence in the desert during the Late Pleistocene, but their population numbers would have paled in comparison to their sub-Saharan counterparts. Ergo, a large proportion of the people moving into the desert during the Holocene wet phase must have come from more humid areas to the south. That the Egyptians' skeletal remains show super-tropical limb proportions would suggest that much of their ancestry was indeed Neolithic sub-Saharan.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: [QB] Forgive me for raining on certain people's parades here, but I've been able to confirm that the Egyptian mummy hair we're arguing over isn't exactly in top condition. I was able to get a hold of Brothwell and Spearman's article on ancient hair at the UCSD library, and they mention that Egyptian hairs, most of all those from the predynastic, have suffered "cuticular erosion". Given that cuticular erosion appears in artificially straightened hair, this doesn't exactly bolster the argument that these people had naturally straight or wavy hair. As an aside, Brothwell and Spearman also report that hair size might also change in post-mortem conditions.
It's irreleavant the mummies that have been shown, Tiye, Thuya, Rameses II etc, intermediate not to mention the non-sequiter logic used. You will have to mention specific mummies
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric:
Mind you, my position is not that dark-skinned African people can't have wavy hair.
the fact that in the beginning of your post you mention "naturally straight or wavy hair" but now you mention wavy but not straight hair could easily lead one to believe that you believe dark-skinned African people can have wavy hair but not straight hair.
It similar to what Djehootie does he might mention straight or wavy hair in Africans but if the subject is ancient Egyptians specifically he sneaks out straight hair and only talks about wavy. So far the only AE that had straight hair was a grape picking peasant. Similarly when an Egyptian artwork's hair is speculated on in every case Troll Patrol will post a modern person with kinky hair suggesting that is the type being the type portrayed in the art. Djhoopty does the same thing
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
I find it funny post a photo of that wooden bust while ignoring my debunking that totemic animal headed gods had "long straight hair" instead of headdresses.
No reply was necessary since you debunked yourself with that one. I moved on
lyinass productions
And exactly how did I "debunk" myself??
Your premise is that Egyptian gods when depicted with anthropomorphic bodies with totemic animal heads have long straight hair. Your premise is false since even Egyptology acknowledges that the animal heads don't show hair but a type of plant fiber headdress of the exact type shown on African masks.
According to your lyinass claims Heru (Horus) is depicted with..
your productions are flushed down the toilet as usual. You keep 'producing' and I'll keep flushing. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ To Troll Patrol, nevermind I see the bust now in different angles and the nose is wider than I thought and yes I see a little maxillary prognathism, though I don't know what all the hoopla about the bust that lyinass posted has anything to do with the topic of this thread.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Forgive me for raining on certain people's parades here, but I've been able to confirm that the Egyptian mummy hair we're arguing over isn't exactly in top condition. I was able to get a hold of Brothwell and Spearman's article on ancient hair at the UCSD library, and they mention that Egyptian hairs, most of all those from the predynastic, have suffered "cuticular erosion". Given that cuticular erosion appears in artificially straightened hair, this doesn't exactly bolster the argument that these people had naturally straight or wavy hair. As an aside, Brothwell and Spearman also report that hair size might also change in post-mortem conditions.
Mind you, my position is not that dark-skinned African people can't have wavy hair. I'm sure the Africans aboriginal to the Saharan latitudes have evolved it a long time ago. I do question whether ancient Egyptians and Nubians were exclusively of Saharan (as opposed to sub-Saharan) descent though. You'd think that once the tropical monsoon moved north and turned the desert green, more than a few sub-Saharan people with kinky hair would have followed it and settled in the Nile Valley.
Indeed. To be honest I'm not at all surprised. I too have been making this same argument since PAGE 1 of this very thread that either embalming chemicals and/or passage of time leads to cuticular erosion. Once the cortex of the hair follicle is exposed oxidation occurs which leads to annihilation of the eumelanin (responsible for black coloring of hair) and only phaelomelanin is left giving the light colored brown, auburn, or red color. This also leads to alteration of original texture.
But again, this is not to say wavy hair did not naturally occur.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,: It's irreleavant the mummies that have been shown, Tiye, Thuya, Rameses II etc, intermediate not to mention the non-sequiter logic used. You will have to mention specific mummies.
Actually what Truth cited is very relevant to the topic at hand. Thus you have to prove that all the mummies you cited had such hair texture originally when alive or was it altered through mummification and/or time via cuticular erosion.
quote:the fact that in the beginning of your post you mention "naturally straight or wavy hair" but now you mention wavy but not straight hair could easily lead one to believe that you believe dark-skinned African people can have wavy hair but not straight hair.
It similar to what Djehootie does he might mention straight or wavy hair in Africans but if the subject is ancient Egyptians specifically he sneaks out straight hair and only talks about wavy.
You talk as if there is a difference. Hair that is wavy is straight or rather straighter than kinky. YOU try to obfuscate by association such straightness with that found in northern Asians or even 'waviness' with that found in Europeans. So don't complain about terminology, lying trick!
quote:So far the only AE that had straight hair was a grape picking peasant. Similarly when an Egyptian artwork's hair is speculated on in every case Troll Patrol will post a modern person with kinky hair suggesting that is the type being the type portrayed in the art. Djhoopty does the same thing
No lying pig. I specifically gave several examples including two farmers and a couple of scribes and even two princesses as well as a few fallen predynastic Delta folk in Narmer's Palette. Obviously looser haired types existed and was portrayed in art. Just because it is not as common as YOU wish it don't dare make the false accusation that I or Troll Patrol of made one cherry picked example, lying ho. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: ^No, the ancient Egyptians weren't solely of Sahara-Sahel descent. But they were amongst those who founded the early civilization. And do have the largest stem, all throughout the Nile civilization.
Thing is that even those Sahara-Sahel people had to come from somewhere. While there probably were small communities of people already eking out an existence in the desert during the Late Pleistocene, but their population numbers would have paled in comparison to their sub-Saharan counterparts. Ergo, a large proportion of the people moving into the desert during the Holocene wet phase must have come from more humid areas to the south. That the Egyptians' skeletal remains show super-tropical limb proportions would suggest that much of their ancestry was indeed Neolithic sub-Saharan.
Note also the findings of ancient Egyptian autosomal DNA STR markers that were once common in pre-Holocene Sub-Sahara but are not common there any longer.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Since people are posting random busts, what about this one?
Is the hair real or a plant wig? The very even strands may suggest the latter though it is possible it may be real hair as well.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Again:
People don't have green skin. yet an artist can portray Osiris a God that has green skin. The skin is intended to be real green skin that a god might have not that the god wore makeup
Likewise people don't have blue hair But a god could have blue hair
Are we looking at a depiction of a mask of Anubis here or is it supposed to be the real Anubis? As we can see by the size of the head it's too small to be a mask on top of a human head. It's the real Anubis, a god with a jackal head on a human body with human hair.
All Egyptians wore wigs? No, some did others didn't. Look at the mummies of Tiye, Yuya, Thiya, Rameses II and many more with their real hair.
Is Anubis in the above relief wearing a wig made of plant fiber? Dje-who-ti showed the item below made of plant fiber. Are the fibers all hanging in neat straight rows? No, there is no resemblance. What about the ancient Egyptian wigs we have seen posted? They don't resemble this hair on Anubis
.
quote:Originally posted by Dje-who?-ti:
Here is a West African mask depicting a deity with yellow plant fibers
quote:Originally posted by Dje-who?-ti:
Queen Tiye
didn't I say that when 'hair' is shown without any texture at all, then it's not really hair but a PLANT fiber wig or headdress! Plant fiber wigs give that impression i.e. no indication of texture or strands OR perfectly even strands that fall at a certain length.
this guy just makes it up as he goes along. Anything that is artistically ambiguous he hiccups "plant fiber"
Another thing about plant fiber is that if rubbing against bare skin it would scratch. There are also hair wigs. And as we have seen there are mummies of people who had their own natural hair, Queen Tiye is an example.
lioness prodcuctions 2013 everyday like a vitamin
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dje-who-me?
two scribes
]two daughters of Tiye and Amenhotep III
^ Note the two princesses have side pieces that are styled perhaps braided and then unbraided and the top part perhaps gelled (?), but definitely natural waves.
Djeshootme has all the above as examples of natural hair. look at the top right figure. straight hair no wave
Now look at a lot of other pieces of art. You see the same depiction of hair yet Djeshootme will say it's a plant fiber wig
He applies the term at random, willy nilly style
then he will shout "can't you tell the difference between plant fiber and real hair ???"
it's comical at this point
fiber is good but if you overdo it you get diarrhea and he has it
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Forgive me for raining on certain people's parades here, but I've been able to confirm that the Egyptian mummy hair we're arguing over isn't exactly in top condition. I was able to get a hold of Brothwell and Spearman's article on ancient hair at the UCSD library, and they mention that Egyptian hairs, most of all those from the predynastic, have suffered "cuticular erosion". Given that cuticular erosion appears in artificially straightened hair, this doesn't exactly bolster the argument that these people had naturally straight or wavy hair. As an aside, Brothwell and Spearman also report that hair size might also change in post-mortem conditions.
Mind you, my position is not that dark-skinned African people can't have wavy hair. I'm sure the Africans aboriginal to the Saharan latitudes have evolved it a long time ago. I do question whether ancient Egyptians and Nubians were exclusively of Saharan (as opposed to sub-Saharan) descent though. You'd think that once the tropical monsoon moved north and turned the desert green, more than a few sub-Saharan people with kinky hair would have followed it and settled in the Nile Valley.
Sigh. Finally some fresh insights from an academic source. Thanks for posting.
As for the implications of this text on the OP sources I posted, there don't seem to be any. Unless I'm misinformed, cuticular erosion doesn't change cross-section index, and so it cannot explain the microscopically non-flattened (i.e., oval shaped) cross-sections. The implications would have been more more apparant if the Egypto-Nubian hair strands were exclusively macroscopically (i.e., visually) categorized as wavy/straigt etc., but they aren't.
So much for Mathilda's obsessions with Ancient Egypto-Nubian discoloured hair strands:
Transverse sections of hair from an Egyptian mummy (Plate XXa) were interesting in that there was a strong uniform reddish fluorescence of the keratin with acridine orange, but the melanin granules in the medulla and cortex were black.
As for your comment on kinky hair in Ancient Egypt, I've already told you in my previous post to you, kinky hairs weren't absent in Ancient Egypt and Nubia. Please reread the OP and other materials, including the papers you yourself put up in Sundiata's thread. I mean the one you bumbed recently.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
^ Probably simple physics is at work here. I do know from playing with my own (straight) hair that flattening individual follicles with a coin will make it curl like Afro-hair. This website reports the same:
quote:Shape of hair: The cross sectional shape is typically round in people of Asian decent, round to oval in European decent, and nearly flat in African decent; it is that flatness which allows African hair to attain its frizzly form. In contrast, hair that has a round cross section will be straight. A strand of straight round cross-section hair that has been flattened, for example, with an edge of a coin, will curl up into a micro-afro.
If you can change the curvature of hair by flattening it, I would think the same physics would allow the reverse scenario (i.e. straightening hair by making its cross-section round).
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
You're clearly reasoning from some perveived incongruence about Africans having non-kinky hair, rather than the material on the table.
Have you seen flattened cross section? Have you seen cross sections that are rounded or oval in shape? Sorry, but I just don't see hair going from one state to the other, simply because of corrosion or other chemical or mechanic infuences.
If you this was as easily achieved as you're implying it is, the segment of the female population that habitually straightens their hair wouldn't go for temporary and damaging 'solutions' like hair straighteners.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Have you seen flattened cross section? Have you seen cross sections that are rounded or oval in shape? Sorry, but I just don't see hair going from one state to the other, simply because of corrosion or other chemical or mechanic infuences.
If you this was as easily achieved as you're implying it is, the segment of the female population that habitually straightens their hair wouldn't go for temporary and damaging 'solutions' like hair straighteners.
Uh, how does that refute anything I've suggested? Do you even understand what I said? If flattening a hair as I have done many times can cause it to curl, why couldn't relaxing a hair cause the reverse process?
Actually, this link suggests that the shape of the whole follicle, rather than the cross-section, is what affects hair curvature.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Your only explanation for wavy straight hair in Ancient Northeast African populations were cutical damage and mechanical alterations. That's exactly what I dealt with in that post. I have no idea how you've come to the conclusion that I didn't understand your post.
This:
quote:why couldn't relaxing a hair cause the reverse process?
What do you mean? Its already established that African Americans who straighten their hair don't get round cross sections. This is exactly why hair straightening isn't permanent:
quote:What happens when you relax your hair? The keratin in hair is arranged in bundles. These bundles are held together by chemical bonds called disulphide bonds. These bonds give the hair strength. Relaxers simply break these disulphide bonds and cap them so that they cannot chemically reform. Classically, hair relaxers use a reducer or a base (the opposite of an acid) such as lye (sodium hydroxide) to break and cap these bonds. Unfortunately, sodium hydroxide can burn your skin and damage your hair. That is why some women opt for no-lye relaxers.
You're flattening your hair strand by applying pressure from the outside. This is what scientist would call human intervention; it wouldn't occur in nature. Three questions: 1) what outside pressure reverses this process (this just seems a contradiction), and 2) what naturally occurring mechanical or chemical phenomena precipitates this? 3) why are curly haired mummies found in the same tombs among other individuals with wavy-straight hair, i.e., why did the curly hairs survive the mechanical and chemical alterations despite the shared environmental conditions?
quote:Actually, this link suggests that the shape of the whole follicle, rather than the cross-section, is what affects hair curvature.
So, then why did your hair strand become coiled when you scraped it with a coin?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote:Those are NOT braids. Braids can easily be made out as exactly that. What is portrayed are strands of straight hair. And that a balding man has braids around his bald spot is laughable! LOL
LOL too. I live in Africa; you don't I have seen more Africans than you will ever see in 2 life times.
I have see African men who are balding wear Rasta braids.
I don't deny that in places like Sudan and the Sahel area northwards there are people with wavy/straight hair. So what is your point? My point is that the men in the AE mural are wearing braids. I would know that better than you.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote:I suggest you go back and read this thread from the beginning or at least read those relevant posts made by Swenet, Zaharan, Troll Patrol, I and other intelligent posters put. Straight/wavy hair DOES occur as an indigenous trait among certain Africans including Nubians and those further south in Sub-Sahara.
You seem obsessed with the hair of the AEs--more than they were. Most wore wigs at some time and others braided their hair.
The AEs were clear on what their predominant hair form was. You see it on their murals where they portrayed themselves in groups and when they compared themselves to West Asians. The hair was always in an East African hairstyle.
The discussion is redundant because the Greeks who saw the AEs in the flesh stated that they had "woolly hair". That's what Herodotus write and Aristotle too. Were they lying?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
lamin the DNA of these Amarna mummies has been tested, they are authentic
Queen Tiye
Yuya, father of Queen Tiye
Yuya and Thuya, Queen Tiye's mother
Rameses II
___________________________________________
Also
Gebelein predynastic mummy, back of head
. Queen Hatshepsut
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
I don't get your point. The present British royal family is of German background. What does the DNA--if accurate--of less than 1% of the indigenous AE population say about the population of a nation that lasted 3,000 years.
The late Senghor of Senegal had a white wife. Same with Wade--whose son had about 12 ministries under his bailiwick.
I prefer--more sensibly--to look at the AE population as a whole--by their murals and their sculptures, royalty and plebs-- and the hear what the Ancient Greeks said about them. Case closed. What else is there to add? Grave robbing Euros who tag on their fanciful analyses are interesting but do not represent the best evidence of the ethnic makeup of the AEs. Again, rely more on the direct, hard, empirical data of the murals, the sculptures and the direct testimony of Greek visitors.
The niggling questions asked back and forth are like those posed by medieval theologians in Europe who asked "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin"?
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: ^No, the ancient Egyptians weren't solely of Sahara-Sahel descent. But they were amongst those who founded the early civilization. And do have the largest stem, all throughout the Nile civilization.
Thanks for your contribution.
who else were the ancient Egyptians prior to the late period comprised of other than people of Sahara-Sahel descent?
I did not say there were other "people prior" to them at the axis. You just made that up.
By The Metropolitan Museum of Art.
Wadi Kubbaniya (ca. 17,000–15,000 B.C.)
Although no signs of houses were found, diverse and sophisticated stone implements for hunting, fishing, and collecting and processing plants were discovered around hearths.
In Egypt, the earliest evidence of humans can be recognized only from tools found scattered over an ancient surface, sometimes with hearths nearby. In Wadi Kubbaniya, a dried-up streambed cutting through the Western Desert to the floodplain northwest of Aswan in Upper Egypt, some interesting sites of the kind described above have been recorded. A cluster of Late Paleolithic camps was located in two different topographic zones: on the tops of dunes and the floor of the wadi (streambed) where it enters the valley. Although no signs of houses were found, diverse and sophisticated stone implements for hunting, fishing, and collecting and processing plants were discovered around hearths. Most tools were bladelets made from a local stone called chert that is widely used in tool fabrication. The bones of wild cattle, hartebeest, many types of fish and birds, as well as the occasional hippopotamus have been identified in the occupation layers. Charred remains of plants that the inhabitants consumed, especially tubers, have also been found.
It appears from the zoological and botanical remains at the various sites in this wadi that the two environmental zones were exploited at different times. We know that the dune sites were occupied when the Nile River flooded the wadi because large numbers of fish and migratory bird bones were found at this location. When the water receded, people then moved down onto the silt left behind on the wadi floor and the floodplain, probably following large animals that looked for water there in the dry season. Paleolithic peoples lived at Wadi Kubbaniya for about 2,000 years, exploiting the different environments as the seasons changed. Other ancient camps have been discovered along the Nile from Sudan to the Mediterranean, yielding similar tools and food remains. These sites demonstrate that the early inhabitants of the Nile valley and its nearby deserts had learned how to exploit local environments, developing economic strategies that were maintained in later cultural traditions of pharaonic Egypt.
*Wadi Halfa is present North Sudan.
*Wadi Kubbaniya is present Southern Egypt.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: ^No, the ancient Egyptians weren't solely of Sahara-Sahel descent. But they were amongst those who founded the early civilization. And do have the largest stem, all throughout the Nile civilization.
Thanks for your contribution.
who else were the ancient Egyptians prior to the late period comprised of other than people of Sahara-Sahel descent?
Science. 2006 Aug 11;313(5788):803-7. Epub 2006 Jul 20.
Climate-controlled Holocene occupation in the Sahara: motor of Africa's evolution.
Kuper R, Kröpelin S.
Source
Collaborative Research Center 389 (ACACIA), University of Cologne, Institute of Prehistoric Archaeology, Africa Research Unit, Jennerstrasse 8, 50823 Köln, Germany.
Abstract
Radiocarbon data from 150 archaeological excavations in the now hyper-arid Eastern Sahara of Egypt, Sudan, Libya, and Chad reveal close links between climatic variations and prehistoric occupation during the past 12,000 years. Synoptic multiple-indicator views for major time slices demonstrate the transition from initial settlement after the sudden onset of humid conditions at 8500 B.C.E. to the exodus resulting from gradual desiccation since 5300 B.C.E.
Southward shifting of the desert margin helped trigger the emergence of pharaonic civilisation along the Nile, influenced the spread of pastoralism throughout the continent, and affects sub-Saharan Africa to the present day.
Naqada, Kerma.
The people STILL look the same and tropical! As is also backed up by science!
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: What do you mean? Its already established that African Americans who straighten their hair don't get round cross sections. This is exactly why hair straightening isn't permanent:
quote:What happens when you relax your hair? The keratin in hair is arranged in bundles. These bundles are held together by chemical bonds called disulphide bonds. These bonds give the hair strength. Relaxers simply break these disulphide bonds and cap them so that they cannot chemically reform. Classically, hair relaxers use a reducer or a base (the opposite of an acid) such as lye (sodium hydroxide) to break and cap these bonds. Unfortunately, sodium hydroxide can burn your skin and damage your hair. That is why some women opt for no-lye relaxers.
Your link does not say that cross-section shape isn't altered by relaxers. The reason the straightening effect isn't permanent if you use certain methods is because only hydrogen bonds are affected, not disulfide bonds. On the other hand, if you do affect the disulfide bonds, the straightening is permanent. It's more to do with which bonds are affected than cross-section shape, I suspect.
quote:You're flattening your hair strand by applying pressure from the outside. This is what scientist would call human intervention; it wouldn't occur in nature. Three questions: 1) what outside pressure reverses this process (this just seems a contradiction), and 2) what naturally occurring mechanical or chemical phenomena precipitates this? 3) why are curly haired mummies found in the same tombs among other individuals with wavy-straight hair, i.e., why did the curly hairs survive the mechanical and chemical alterations despite the shared environmental conditions?
I don't claim to know exactly what is damaging the mummies' hair. All I know is that, according to Brothwell and Spearman, this hair is damaged.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: ^No, the ancient Egyptians weren't solely of Sahara-Sahel descent. But they were amongst those who founded the early civilization. And do have the largest stem, all throughout the Nile civilization.
Thanks for your contribution.
who else were the ancient Egyptians prior to the late period comprised of other than people of Sahara-Sahel descent?
l-Barga reveals one of the most important necropoleis of the early Holocene in Africa.
This site was discovered in 2001 during a survey concentrating on the zones bordering the alluvial plain. The name el-Barga is borrowed from a nearby mountain. The site is located on an elevation formed by an outcrop of bedrock (Nubian sandstone) less than 15 km from the Nile, as the crow flies. It includes a settlement area dated to circa 7500 B.C. and cemeteries belonging to two distinct periods.
The habitation is a circular hut slightly less than five metres in diameter, its maximum depth exceeding 50 centimetres. This semi-subterranean structure contained a wealth of artefacts resulting from the site’s occupation (ceramics, grinding tools, flint objects, ostrich eggshell beads, a mother-of-pearl pendant, bone tools, faunal remains, shells). The abundance of artefacts discovered suggests a marked inclination towards a sedentary lifestyle, even though certain activities (fishing and hunting) necessitate seasonal migration.
North of this habitation, about forty burials were dated to the Epipalaeolithic (7700-7000 B.C.) and generally do not contain any furnishings. On the other hand, the Neolithic cemetery (6000-5500 B.C.) located further south comprises about a hundred burials often containing artefacts (adornment, ceramics, flint or bone objects).
For further information, read the publications by M. Honegger. Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: ^No, the ancient Egyptians weren't solely of Sahara-Sahel descent. But they were amongst those who founded the early civilization. And do have the largest stem, all throughout the Nile civilization.
Thanks for your contribution.
who else were the ancient Egyptians prior to the late period comprised of other than people of Sahara-Sahel descent?
Ancient watercourses and biogeography of the Sahara explain the peopling of the desert
Roger M. Blench et al.
Edited by Ofer Bar-Yosef, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA, and approved November 22, 2010 (received for review August 23, 2010)
Evidence increasingly suggests that sub-Saharan Africa is at the center of human evolution and understanding routes of dispersal “out of Africa” is thus becoming increasingly important. The Sahara Desert is considered by many to be an obstacle to these dispersals and a Nile corridor route has been proposed to cross it. Here we provide evidence that the Sahara was not an effective barrier and indicate how both animals and humans populated it during past humid phases. Analysis of the zoogeography of the Sahara shows that more animals crossed via this route than used the Nile corridor. Furthermore, many of these species are aquatic. This dis- persal was possible because during the Holocene humid period the region contained a series of linked lakes, rivers, and inland deltas comprising a large interlinked waterway, channeling water and an- imals into and across the Sahara, thus facilitating these dispersals. This system was last active in the early Holocene when many spe- cies appear to have occupied the entire Sahara. However, species that require deep water did not reach northern regions because of weak hydrological connections. Human dispersals were influenced by this distribution; Nilo-Saharan speakers hunting aquatic fauna with barbed bone points occupied the southern Sahara, while peo- ple hunting Savannah fauna with the bow and arrow spread south- ward. The dating of lacustrine sediments show that the “green Sahara” also existed during the last interglacial (∼125 ka) and pro- vided green corridors that could have formed dispersal routes at a likely time for the migration of modern humans out of Africa.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: [QB] Forgive me for raining on certain people's parades here, but I've been able to confirm that the Egyptian mummy hair we're arguing over isn't exactly in top condition. I was able to get a hold of Brothwell and Spearman's article on ancient hair at the UCSD library, and they mention that Egyptian hairs, most of all those from the predynastic, have suffered "cuticular erosion". Given that cuticular erosion appears in artificially straightened hair, this doesn't exactly bolster the argument that these people had naturally straight or wavy hair. As an aside, Brothwell and Spearman also report that hair size might also change in post-mortem conditions.
It's irreleavant the mummies that have been shown, Tiye, Thuya, Rameses II etc, intermediate not to mention the non-sequiter logic used. You will have to mention specific mummies
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric:
Mind you, my position is not that dark-skinned African people can't have wavy hair.
the fact that in the beginning of your post you mention "naturally straight or wavy hair" but now you mention wavy but not straight hair could easily lead one to believe that you believe dark-skinned African people can have wavy hair but not straight hair.
It similar to what Djehootie does he might mention straight or wavy hair in Africans but if the subject is ancient Egyptians specifically he sneaks out straight hair and only talks about wavy. So far the only AE that had straight hair was a grape picking peasant. Similarly when an Egyptian artwork's hair is speculated on in every case Troll Patrol will post a modern person with kinky hair suggesting that is the type being the type portrayed in the art. Djhoopty does the same thing
You are lying as usually. I have always portrayed people from the South of Egypt in comparison to the ancients. The reason why I will post Africans similar in phenotype is, to show that these traits are indeed of Africans.
Sorry, your mental capabilities don't reach that high. And reposting the wooden bust makes you look stupid, after I elaborated on it extensive.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: [QB] I don't get your point. The present British royal family is of German background. What does the DNA--if accurate--of less than 1% of the indigenous AE population say about the population of a nation that lasted 3,000 years.
you are making up a percentage at random off the top of your head
quote:Originally posted by lamin:
The late Senghor of Senegal had a white wife. Same with Wade--whose son had about 12 ministries under his bailiwick.
I prefer--more sensibly--to look at the AE population as a whole--by their murals and their sculptures...
Again, rely more on the direct, hard, empirical data of the murals, the sculptures and the direct testimony of Greek visitors.
That is not data it's art. and you are the one that has been saying Egyptians wore wigs. Right there is a problem in knowing what their natural hair was. Further this thread shows when looking at a lot of the art you cannot be certain of what hair type is being shown
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: I don't claim to know exactly what is damaging the mummies' hair. All I know is that, according to Brothwell and Spearman, this hair is damaged. [/QB]
on predynatsic remains
Queen Tiye, 18 dynasties later Imagine the size of the afro were this an afro that "corroded"
watch how Truthcentrick and Djehootie are trying to acquire street cred points in this thread......
carry on....
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QB] lamin the DNA of these Amarna mummies has been tested, they are authentic
Queen Tiye
Yuya, father of Queen Tiye
Yuya and Thuya, Queen Tiye's mother
Rameses II
___________________________________________
Also
Gebelein predynastic mummy, back of head
Swenet has slapped you all over the place in that thread you made about the Gebelein predynastic mummy. It's funny you bring it up again.
The hair texture you picture is frizzy. Not straight.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: I don't claim to know exactly what is damaging the mummies' hair. All I know is that, according to Brothwell and Spearman, this hair is damaged.
on predynatsic remains
Queen Tiye, 18 dynasties later Imagine the size of the afro were this an afro that "corroded"
watch how Truthcentrick and Djehootie are trying to acquire street cred points in this thread......
carry on.... [/QB]
Not everybody has the same hair texture in Africa. The hair is not straight, it's thick and frizzy!
When is this going to penetrate into your skull?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,: Again:
People don't have green skin. yet an artist can portray Osiris a God that has green skin. The skin is intended to be real green skin that a god might have not that the god wore makeup
Dumbass, skin colors are symbolic! We already have examples of women who are painted yellow even though they may not have been that color in life. As for gods, their skin colors are symbolic of their powers. Green is the color vegetation as Osiris is an agricultural god. Amun is often portrayed as blue as blue is the color of the sky and omniscience. Note the Ausar's wife Aset and her twin sister Nebti behind him both have blue plant wigs NOT hair as not only are they blue colored with no indication of texture but the ends have a gold lining.
quote:
Likewise people don't have blue hair But a god could have blue hair
NO god with an animal head is depicted with hair, dummy! That is my point! It is not hair at all but a headdress!
quote:
Are we looking at a depiction of a mask of Anubis here or is it supposed to be the real Anubis? As we can see by the size of the head it's too small to be a mask on top of a human head. It's the real Anubis, a god with a jackal head on a human body with human hair.
It doesn't matter. Whether it be a man portraying the god with a mask or the god himself, it is NOT hair but a headdress!! I already showed you pictures of the god Horus one with blue headdress, another green, and another multicolored! This is common FACT of Egyptology! I suggest you do research on it before you type any rubbish and spam more pictures.
quote:All Egyptians wore wigs? No, some did others didn't. Look at the mummies of Tiye, Yuya, Thiya, Rameses II and many more with their real hair.
Of course not all Egyptians wore wigs. Wigs in fact are a sign of status as they are in traditional West African cultures. Most common folks didn't wear wigs but their own hair. As for the elite, they either fashioned their own hair and/or wore wigs on top of their hairs.
quote:Is Anubis in the above relief wearing a wig made of plant fiber? Dje-who-ti showed the item below made of plant fiber. Are the fibers all hanging in neat straight rows? No, there is no resemblance. What about the ancient Egyptian wigs we have seen posted? They don't resemble this hair on Anubis
Dumb b|tch, not all plant fibers are the same and not all fibers look alike. I also posted a picture of a West African girl wearing a plant fiber wig that looked nothing like the deity mask!
Even Troll Patrol posted a picture of an Ethiopian man wearing a grass wig that looks like 'straight hair'!
^ All the above wigs are plant fibers but they are all different, stupid ho.
quote:this guy just makes it up as he goes along. Anything that is artistically ambiguous he hiccups "plant fiber"
I'm not making anything up! The problem is you know nothing about traditional African wigs let alone plant wig styles which is again is something African!
quote:Another thing about plant fiber is that if rubbing against bare skin it would scratch...
That would depend on what kind of plant fiber, if the person even has bare skin that is bald scalp underneath the wig, and if they were bald they had lubricant since many Egyptians used butter and beeswax on their scalps.
quote:There are also hair wigs. And as we have seen there are mummies of people who had their own natural hair, Queen Tiye is an example.
Yes but that has no bearing on the totemic animal heads.
quote:lyinass productions 2013 everyday like a bowel movement
flushed down again. Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
quote:That is not data it's art. and you are the one that has been saying Egyptians wore wigs. Right there is a problem in knowing what their natural hair was. Further this thread shows when looking at a lot of the art you cannot be certain of what hair type is being shown
.
If you have doubts then you check what visitors to Egypt said. In this case Greek intellectuals such as Herodotus and Aristotle. They had nothing to gain by lying on the type of hair the AEs and Nubians had.
So were the lying when they wrote that the Egyptians and Nubians had woolly hair. Yes or No?
There were 26 AE dynasties and some 330 pharaohs spread over 3000 years plus. A few pharaohs singled out and showed around for propaganda purposes will convince.
Better to get a grasp of what the AEs were by their murals, sculptures, and what the Greeks wrote. And they said--embarrassingly for the Eurocentrics--that the AEs and Nubians shared the same kind of woolly hair. Selecting a few mummies and showing off their supposed natural hair is interesting but implies nothing really.
The Greeks occupied Egypt and knew the land thoroughly. That's why I trust them more on phenotypical appearances than grave robbers and pale-faced Euro excavators.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^ I recommend you look at the first several posts on page 1 of this thread as well as
empirical data
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djeshiti: not all plant fibers are the same and not all fibers look alike. I also posted a picture of a West African girl wearing a plant fiber wig that looked nothing like the deity mask!
The hair left on the head is shaved. A special libation, known as triple libation is poured with a cocktail of millet-beer, palm wine and Schnapps. During libation, the god's blessing is asked for the girls. After the parents of the girls present a castrated goat to the Dipo priest for slaughtering, the blood is used in washing the girl's feet, in the belief of washing away any bad omen that might prevent the girls from becoming mothers in future. The 'dipo-yo' is made to sit on a special stool covered with white cloth. Some marks are made on the body with clay. The girls are made to wear the intestines of the goat across their shoulders and taken to a shrine, where they are made to sit on a sacred stone three times. After the ceremony, the girls are carried home amidst jubilation. The remaining hair shaved by the priest are worn like hats by the girls
^^^ proof that Djeshootme makes up stuff, like he knew what that head piece was made of, exposed, not plant fiber
.
Krobo girl, Dipo ceremony
fool, we have seen the Egyptian wigs. They bear no resemblance to what this this girl is wearing. This item sheds no light on Egyptian art.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
Oops I did it again,
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass: The hair left on the head is shaved. A special libation, known as triple libation is poured with a cocktail of millet-beer, palm wine and Schnapps. During libation, the god's blessing is asked for the girls. After the parents of the girls present a castrated goat to the Dipo priest for slaughtering, the blood is used in washing the girl's feet, in the belief of washing away any bad omen that might prevent the girls from becoming mothers in future. The 'dipo-yo' is made to sit on a special stool covered with white cloth. Some marks are made on the body with clay. The girls are made to wear the intestines of the goat across their shoulders and taken to a shrine, where they are made to sit on a sacred stone three times. After the ceremony, the girls are carried home amidst jubilation. The remaining hair shaved by the priest are worn like hats by the girls ^^^ proof that Djeshootme makes up stuff, like he knew what that head piece was made of, exposed, not plant fiber
First, can you please cite your source. Not that I don't believe what you describe is true, but your mental capacity for basic comprehension seems deficient enough yet you expect I and others to assume you all of a sudden know what the photo of the Krobo girl portrays and the exact cultural context! We know your dumbass is not psychic! So cite the source of your explanation of that photo, plagiarist twit!
Second, I wasn't the one who first posted the picture of the Krobo girl in this forum. Someone else, I believe Tukuler (?) did in another thread a couple of years back when I asked for examples of plant fiber wigs worn by Africans. So if I am mistaken it was due to someone else's mistake.
Either way, it does not change anything I said in regards to totemic gods' headdresses! LOL
Here is another example of a man who wears a similar headdress:
fool, we have seen the Egyptian wigs. They bear no resemblance to what this this girl is wearing. This item sheds no light on Egyptian art.
YOU are the fool! Whether the wig is plant fiber or hair it DOES bear a resemblance to Egyptian wigs only that her's is shorter. Again, you don't know anything about Egyptian wigs!
To intelligent folks, I'm actually surprised that the wig the Krobo girl above wears is made from her own hair which if true must be styled in some way because it looks just like plant fiber of the type that gives a smooth non textured appearance of the type worn by Egyptians.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
]First, can you please cite your source.
I'll do that if you validate the statement:
"I Dehutie have been flushed down the toilet"
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ First off, I don't need you to cite your source as I can find it myself. That you have to is based on basic scholarship as well as common courtesy to the author you ripped it off from! Second of all, I have not been flushed by anyone let alone a nincompoop like YOU! LOL
You still have not refuted what I said about totemic animal headed deities not having long hair but wearing plant headdresses or wigs. And you still have not refuted what I said about West Africans wearing black plant fiber wigs that give the (false) impression of straight hair. So I'm still waiting to be 'flushed', b|tch. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ All the above wigs are plant fibers but they are all different, stupid ho.
this is why Djehuti has no credibility he is saying that the above man is wearing a plant fiber wig when in fact he is not wearing something made of plant fiber. He pretends to know what he's talking about.
It's safer not to pretend and rather you think it's made of plant fiber rather than it is made of plant fiber. That way you at last have an out.
But since such wisdom has not been followed another small mammal meal has been provided to the lioness.
You may agree with some of what this Djehutie character says but you also have to watch him. He tries to slip in slick moves.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: What do you mean? Its already established that African Americans who straighten their hair don't get round cross sections. This is exactly why hair straightening isn't permanent:
quote:What happens when you relax your hair? The keratin in hair is arranged in bundles. These bundles are held together by chemical bonds called disulphide bonds. These bonds give the hair strength. Relaxers simply break these disulphide bonds and cap them so that they cannot chemically reform. Classically, hair relaxers use a reducer or a base (the opposite of an acid) such as lye (sodium hydroxide) to break and cap these bonds. Unfortunately, sodium hydroxide can burn your skin and damage your hair. That is why some women opt for no-lye relaxers.
Your link does not say that cross-section shape isn't altered by relaxers. The reason the straightening effect isn't permanent if you use certain methods is because only hydrogen bonds are affected, not disulfide bonds. On the other hand, if you do affect the disulfide bonds, the straightening is permanent. It's more to do with which bonds are affected than cross-section shape, I suspect.
quote:You're flattening your hair strand by applying pressure from the outside. This is what scientist would call human intervention; it wouldn't occur in nature. Three questions: 1) what outside pressure reverses this process (this just seems a contradiction), and 2) what naturally occurring mechanical or chemical phenomena precipitates this? 3) why are curly haired mummies found in the same tombs among other individuals with wavy-straight hair, i.e., why did the curly hairs survive the mechanical and chemical alterations despite the shared environmental conditions?
I don't claim to know exactly what is damaging the mummies' hair. All I know is that, according to Brothwell and Spearman, this hair is damaged.
The excerpts talks about how straightening is achieved, and cross-sectional changes aren't listed. You're right that there are permanent straighteners that involve chemical treatments. Let me just alter my statement to say that I don't discount that there are permanent straighteners, just that cross-section changes have nothing to do with the end result. This view should be easily falsifiable. I've tried to falsify it myself in the past and cross-section changes are never listed among the hair changes that underlie chemically straightened hair.
The issue of cuticle damage in and of itself is irrelevant. In fact, non-Egyptian hairs also suffered cuticle damage. Its unreasonable to expect flesh and bone to decay after thousands of years, but not hair. All I care about is whether cuticle damage explains the incidences of wavy straight hair on Egyptian and Nubian mummies, and from the looks of it, it doesn't. I'm not interested in suspicions founded on pre-conceived notions about African variability. Natural mechanical forces don't alter hair in life, so there seems to be no reason why they should alter post-mortem hair.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Yet despite physical decay and deterioration, Euronuts like Lyinass would often point to the complexion of mummies as well as their hair color and texture as 'proof' of something.
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass twit: this is why Djehuti has no credibility he is saying that the above man is wearing a plant fiber wig when in fact he is not wearing something made of plant fiber. He pretends to know what he's talking about.
It's safer not to pretend and rather you think it's made of plant fiber rather than it is made of plant fiber. That way you at last have an out.
But since such wisdom has not been followed another small mammal meal has been provided to the lioness.
You may agree with some of what this Djehutie character says but you also have to watch him. He tries to slip in slick moves.
Look here, b|tch. At least I admit when I'm wrong. So the West African girl is not wearing a wig made of plant fibers, maybe not the Ethiopian man either. Your strawman notions about whatever I was wrong about still does NOT refute anything I said about the headdress of totemic deities nor the use of plant fiber wigs among Egyptians just like other Africans.
^ 3 Egyptian gods seated in procession all wearing headdresses-- from right to left-- Ausar with his atef headdress, Djehuti (Thoth) with his blue plant fiber wig or headdress, Hetheru (Hathor) with a black plant fiber wig. Both wigs have gold lined ends.
Here are some Rwandans with plant wigs which if portrayed in ancient art may lead the lyinass idiot to think they were platinum blondes.
Your lyinass is so desperate to cling to whatever small errors on my part to distract from the main point of my argument which I am definitely correct and YOU are wrong.
your productions are crumbling before they are even flushed. Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Oromos buy those headdresses from a certain Ethiopian tribe. Rural Ethiopian trade is structured like that, where different ethnic groups are known for, and bring different products to the market. For instance, the Afar are known for mining and selling salt. I believe the hairs are from Lion manes, but don't quote me on that. They're most definitely not plant fibers; its animal hair.
Does anyone have a single image of an undisputed plant fiber wig? Or at least an academic text on this type of headdress, that specifies the African nations that wear/wore this type of wig?
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Those 'dos look almost identical to the traditional Ancient Egyptian hairstyles, but the textures seem dissimilar.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
^It's a neighbouring population.
But it's about the overall similarities.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Somewhat similar with the man shape angle but the bottom of the Oromo style is rounded and at the forehead comes to a point
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Here are some Rwandans with plant wigs which if portrayed in ancient art may lead the lyinass idiot to think they were platinum blondes.
They are probably emulating a racial type they came into contact with. As early as the 3rd century BC, Callimachus describes female Libyans with flowing blonde hair while fair hair and blue eyed Libyans also appear in earlier Egyptian depictions:
"...the royal necropolis of Thebes of about 1300 B.C., certain Libyans are depicted as having a white skin, blue eyes and fair beards. Blonds are represented on Egyptian monuments from 1700 B.C. and were noted by the Greeks in the fourth century B.C. In the east the blonds have quite died out, but there are patches of this race in the west of North Africa. This fair race still remain an unsolved problem. Some students bring them from Spain, other authors from Italy, others again from the east. Perhaps they were a sporadic invasions and formed an aristocratic class. One suggestion is that they were Proto-Nordics who formed a part of the various groups of Asiatics who raided Egypt about 1300 B.C. and moved westwards." - Alfred Cort Haddon, The Races of Man and Their Distribution (1924), University Press, 1924, p.36
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
Women in ancient Egypt
The Cambridge ancient history, Volumes 1-3
In the early 20th century much was made over the ancestry of Hetepheres II. A relief from the tomb of her daughter, Meresankh III, depicts the queen with blonde hair.
However, closer inspection reveals that she was not a natural blonde, but rather the owner of a unique and, we can speculate, much coveted blonde wig.
Analysis of Hair Samples of Mummies from Semna South, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, (1978) 49: 277-262
As Brothwell and Spearman (‘63) point out, reddish-brown ancient hair is usually the result of partial oxidation of the melanin pigment. This color was seen in a large proportion of the Semna sample, and also noted by Titlbachova and Titlbach (‘77) on Egyptian material, where it also may have resulted from the mummification process. However, the large number of blond hairs that are not associated with the cuticular damage that bleaching produces, probably points to a significantly lighter-haired population than is now present in the Nubian region. Brothwell and Spearman (’63) noted genuinely blond ancient Egyptian samples using reflectance spectrophotometry. Blondism, especially in young children, is common in many darkhaired populations (e.g., Australian, Melanesian), and is still found in some Nubian villages (J. Zabkar, personal communication).
Only one sample (M197) showed cuticular damage and irregularities definitely consistent with bleaching, although bleaching could not be ruled out in some of the blond samples.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yet despite physical decay and deterioration, Euronuts like Lyinass would often point to the complexion of mummies as well as their hair color and texture as 'proof' of something.
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass twit: this is why Djehuti has no credibility he is saying that the above man is wearing a plant fiber wig when in fact he is not wearing something made of plant fiber. He pretends to know what he's talking about.
It's safer not to pretend and rather you think it's made of plant fiber rather than it is made of plant fiber. That way you at last have an out.
But since such wisdom has not been followed another small mammal meal has been provided to the lioness.
You may agree with some of what this Djehutie character says but you also have to watch him. He tries to slip in slick moves.
Look here, b|tch. At least I admit when I'm wrong. So the West African girl is not wearing a wig made of plant fibers, maybe not the Ethiopian man either. Your strawman notions about whatever I was wrong about still does NOT refute anything I said about the headdress of totemic deities nor the use of plant fiber wigs among Egyptians just like other Africans.
^ 3 Egyptian gods seated in procession all wearing headdresses-- from right to left-- Ausar with his atef headdress, Djehuti (Thoth) with his blue plant fiber wig or headdress, Hetheru (Hathor) with a black plant fiber wig. Both wigs have gold lined ends.
Here are some Rwandans with plant wigs which if portrayed in ancient art may lead the lyinass idiot to think they were platinum blondes.
Your lyinass is so desperate to cling to whatever small errors on my part to distract from the main point of my argument which I am definitely correct and YOU are wrong.
your productions are crumbling before they are even flushed.
It's intrigue, this ritual is called "war dancing".
Aside from the original topic,
It's interesting, I haven't heard of this or seen this before.
The ballet costume for the Intore men is grass wigs to create a ‘mane’ effect, spears, and bells on each foot to provide the beat of the performance. Women dancers wear traditional shawls wrapped across their bodies in sari fashion. The dancers act out narratives using flapping bird and swimming fish movements, battle cries, leaps, stomps, spins, hand gestures and facial expressions. Together, these create the fictional world—the setting, characters and plot—without any playbill necessary.
quote:Originally posted by Fartheadbonkers: They are probably emulating a racial type they came into contact with. As early as the 3rd century BC, Callimachus describes female Libyans with flowing blonde hair while fair hair and blue eyed Libyans also appear in earlier Egyptian depictions
First off, the photos I posted are of Rwandan Bahuma. I seriously doubt their ancient ancestors came into any direct contact with 'Libyans' let alone white people with blonde hair and blue eyes. Note the typical Euronut arrogance and jump to the conclusion that these Africans must somehow be "emulating" a superior Caucasian race! LOL Ironically enough so many cultural traits and affinities to Sub-Saharan 'Negroes' are found in Egypt yet I never hear a peep from you or your Euronut ilk about the supposed 'Caucasian' Egyptians emulating black racial types. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Oromos buy those headdresses from a certain Ethiopian tribe. Rural Ethiopian trade is structured like that, where different ethnic groups are known for, and bring different products to the market. For instance, the Afar are known for mining and selling salt. I believe the hairs are from Lion manes, but don't quote me on that. They're most definitely not plant fibers; its animal hair.
I know men of certain ethnic groups or tribes in Africa would wear lions manes after successfully hunting a lion. Though lion hunting has been outlawed in most if not all countries, and I haven't heard of the tradition being practiced lately in Africa. These reasons plus the fact that certain thin grasses look like long hair or fur led me to believe the Ethiopian man might be wearing a headdress of grass though now that you mention it, it does look a lot like mane fur.
quote:Does anyone have a single image of an undisputed plant fiber wig? Or at least an academic text on this type of headdress, that specifies the African nations that wear/wore this type of wig?
There's one website that features examples of traditional African wigs made from artificial materials like plant fiber, right here!
^ All of the examples though are of braided types. I am still in search of pictures of plant fiber wigs that look like Egyptian 'straight hair'.
I first learned about plant fiber wigs many years back when I began learning about Egypt's African identity, specifically when I read Diop's African Origins book where he pointed out that the Egyptian wigs that gave a jet-straight haired appearance were in fact not made of hair at all but plant fibers. He even said that such type wigs were used in various cultures in West Africa including his own Wolof culture but unfortunately the tradition is dying out due to takeover of foreign influences whether Islamic or Western. Only in rural parts or in communities that are the most conservative is the tradition of making such wigs still alive. Still I am looking for modern day examples.
Unfortunately, pictures of traditional African wigs regardless of its material are sorely lacking in the internet. This is hardly surprising considering that the tradition of African wigs (outside of ancient Egypt) is virtually unheard of outside of Africa let alone by Westerners. As I said, I didn't even know that the wig-wearing custom of Egyptians was African until I read Diop's work.
^ The reason why I thought the West African Krobo girl above could be wearing an example of such a wig was because a couple of years back on a thread about African hairstyles I inquired if someone had a picture of plant fiber hairpieces and someone either Zarahan, Troll Patrol, or Tukuler answered with that picture. Looking at the texture you can understand why I thought that was the case.
Speaking of which...
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
LOL You dishonest, plagiarist, troll! You didn't think I would find the source of your quotes. Again basic scholarship tells one to cite the source of a quote that obviously isn't yours.
By the way, I still question whether what you cited below actually describes the girls in the two photos.
The hair left on the head is shaved. A special libation, known as triple libation is poured with a cocktail of millet-beer, palm wine and Schnapps. During libation, the god's blessing is asked for the girls. After the parents of the girls present a castrated goat to the Dipo priest for slaughtering, the blood is used in washing the girl's feet, in the belief of washing away any bad omen that might prevent the girls from becoming mothers in future. The 'dipo-yo' is made to sit on a special stool covered with white cloth. Some marks are made on the body with clay. The girls are made to wear the intestines of the goat across their shoulders and taken to a shrine, where they are made to sit on a sacred stone three times. After the ceremony, the girls are carried home amidst jubilation. The remaining hair shaved by the priest are worn like hats by the girls
Yet here are the girls just before they drink their libations.
Something is amiss in the desperate lyinass google-search explanation. Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The following screenshots are citations that describe the hair types found on individuals interred in areas that are (mostly) directly below the 1st cataract:
the charts that had hair types that were once in this thread were they from
The Archological Survey of Nubia: Report For 1907-1908 -G. Elliot Smith,F. Wood Jones
Crania Ægyptiaca, or, Observations on Egyptian ethnography -Samuel George Morton
______________________
or from another source?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Both. The former source supplied most descriptions while the latter source contained just a couple, IIRC.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
I was looking in both documents for the charts you had up. Are they in there exactly as you had them posted, as a screen shot of the document? Or did you make the chart based on the books data?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
This seems to be the first book you asked about. The other book is also free on the net.
But to answer your question, no, the tables aren't in the books. I congregated all the relevant text that was accessible from books.google and plugged them into the tables I had posted at the time.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
well, I thought it was going to be easy. Do you still have these tables? Can you repost them? This is a uniquely formatted piece of information that would be good to have up on the internet. A repost in any form would be good. Ideally it should be all in one piece with the sources printed on it, possibly with page references as well (but not absolutely necessary) Thanks if you can do it. If you had what you had before I can put it together as one graphic and then get your approval on it.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Had to really dig in the crates to retrieve these. You owe me one, lioness. Save these from now on, please. Yes, I posted it and I'm responsible for sourcing the data, but the references were posted.
Only the top reference (p19) was taken from Samuel Morton's "Crania Aegyptiaca". All the other references were taken from the other book.
The latter book consists of several volumes. With the descriptions and their book pages, I think you can take the legwork over from here on and find the book pages of interest.
Side note: more descriptions were given of hair textures of possibly Nubian individuals in Crania Aegyptiaca (the ones in Philae), but I omitted them because I don't know it's settlement history and it's a border town. The individuals could have easily been Egyptians or partly Egyptian. This thread was about (lower) Nubians.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
thanks, much It's a 14 page thread here, now the intital post info is back up.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
I just googled some of the descriptions hoping to get the other (missing) books.google pages, but with no success. The book's previews don't even seem to be available anymore. But maybe you'll have more luck, lioness.
Just to address questions some may have:
Most examples of the non-ulotrichous hair forms of individuals with ostensibly Nile Valley origins (i.e. excluding the so-called "alien" types [which are more common in the common era period, especially the Christian period]) seem restricted to individuals phenotypically identified as belonging to "Egyptian" and "Nubian" types, like this:
p137
"1. Young woman: hair has been black and wavy: the face is of the Nubian type. The third molar teeth are still deep in the alveolus. Three of the first molars are carious. (...)"
p137
"Man, found in empty tomb: probably modern Nubian. Skull: L. over scalp 169, B. (over scalp) 138--index 82. The beard is scanty and confined to the chin and the ramus of the mandible; the hair on the upper lip is scanty. The scalp hair is wavy."
Visually speaking (and this can be gathered from descriptions in the saved book pages I still have), the "Egyptian" type described by the physical anthropologist (presumably Elliot Smith), approximates this:
It's basically the most representative-looking ancient Egyptian cranium, with the least visible "negroid", Maghrebi, Levantine, etc. admixture (a common practice back then was study populations by identifying distinct looking racial types perceived to be representatives of different pure, pre-existing racial sources). I don't know what the author's "Nubian" type corresponds to, but it's at least somewhat different given the non-overlapping and deliberate use of both labels. The author acknowledges that both have a common origin in a "Hamitic" ancestral population, so they were probably just thought to be two varieties of the same "race".
Aside from the aforementioned conceptual "Egyptian", "Nubian" and "Alien" types, there were apparently also visibly "negroid"-looking remains with non-ulotrichious hair forms. Here is one, for instance:
p118
quote: "28 contained an aged woman very like No. 27 [Note: No. 27 was described as "negroid" looking in the previous paragraph], with a rounded oval cranium: nose negroid: only 6 teeth remaining and the alveolar process of the rest of the jaw absorbed: all sutures closes: hair black and wavy (..)"
Cautionary tale for confused individuals who see this diversity in hair forms as confirmation of their Eurocentric ideas. These are native African physiognomies and can be seen today on certain living Egyptians (although they're coupled with more non-African DNA, today). These Egyptians are clearly different from the average living Egyptian (i.e. the ones who look like Hosni Mubarak:
Since the preview of "The Archaeological Survey of Nubia, Report For 1907-1908" in books.google seems to be gone, I'll make the pages I have saved (>30 pages) available on request. They're mostly dry descriptions that most here would not be interested in, so I won't post them.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
You all do know Neanderthals were GG for EDAR370. Meaning ancient “humans” most likely had thick straight hair. Meaning modern humans most like left Africa with thick straight hair.
Thick straight hair although uncommon in Africa today was apparently common in African genetic history. FYI.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
I think the mutation in the EDAR gene you're referring to just codes for thick hair (among other things), not straight hair. From what I recall, West Eurasians don't have the mutated gene at sufficient levels to explain the ubiquitous non-ulotrichous hair forms in that region.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Agreed. Thick/Straight hair may be cumulative due to different genes just as pigmentation. But many scientist characterize Native American/Asian hair texture EDAR. And of course shovel teeth comes into play.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I think the mutation in the EDAR gene you're referring to just codes for thick hair (among other things), not straight hair. From what I recall, West Eurasians don't have the mutated gene at sufficient levels to explain the ubiquitous non-ulotrichous hair forms in that region.
Of all the densely pigmented people in the world, it seems to be to be the case that mostly Sub-Saharan Africans, some native Oceanians and some South Asians (e.g. Andaman Islanders) have tightly curled hair. The original dark skinned Khuzistanis ("Elamites"), Arabs, Sumerians, etc.--all dark skinned groups closer to the African continent--seem to have had curly and wavy-straight hair forms.
Possible scenarios re: the origin and spread of hair forms:
1) The mtDNA M and N OOA migrations were composed of distinct waves, with the populations in some waves being predominately ulotrichous and others predominantly non-ulotrichous (unlikely IMO, because M and N were too related at the time for such a pattern to already exist by then).
2) Ulotrichous dark skinned populations in Asia carry additional, post-OOA genes from an ulotrichous (e.g. a Sub Saharan or pre-Toba OOA AMH) source population (unlikely IMO, because OOA populations have similar amounts of shared genetic drift).
3) OOA populations were originally mostly non-ulotrichous, but selection acted on the ancestors of some of the living dark skinned Eurasians, causing them to lose their wavy-straight hair forms. Some dark skinned Asians then reacquired alleles for straight hair at some later point. Australian wavy-straight hair can almost certainly be explained this way; sister populations related to them, with no detectable admixture (e.g. Papuans and Tasmanians), have ulotrichous hair. This possibly explains South Asian examples of non-ulotrichous hair forms as well, given what we know about the phenotypes of groups who are almost purely ASI (e.g. Onge); they have tightly curled hair, like most SSAs.
4) OOA populations were originally all ulotrichous. Non-ulotrichous phenotypes emerged in one or more lineages after OOA. The ancestors of living dark skinned Eurasian groups with ulotrichous hair forms then absorbed populations with the alleles for straight hair. This scenario would also explain the Australian and South Asian wavy-straight hair forms. It's plausible, but wavy-straight hair is present in both East and West Eurasians. The latter split happened very early after the first OOA subgroups (ancestors of Oceanians) started departing from the main OOA stem. This would give wavy straight hair a very narrow window of time to emerge in Eurasians after OOA.
5) mtDNA M and N OOA groups acquired straight hair alleles from contact with North African MSA groups (e.g. Aterians, Nubian complex people) when they arrived in North Africa from the south, or, alternatively, from Neanderthals in the Levant, as soon as they left Africa. This scenario is compatible with scenario 3.
Anyone willing to try narrowing these down with clever arguments?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Thick hair can be straight.
"Thick" in this case means thick individual hair strands, like this extreme case:
The genome of a man who lived on the western coast of Greenland some 4,000 years ago has been decoded, thanks to the surprisingly good preservation of DNA in a swatch of his hair so thick it was originally thought to be from a bear.
But yeah, thick hair strands can be straight. In the case of East Asians thick and straight hair strands are dominant.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
hair cross sections>
The density of someone’s hair refers to how much hair exists in an area on the scalp. For example, if you take one inch of a person’s head, hold the hair and see a lot of bare scalp, that person has very thin hair. Density can be either thin, medium, or thick depending on how much scalp is visible. Texture, however, refers to the actual hair strand itself. If an individual hair strand is very large in circumference, we would call that a coarse hair strand. If a hair strand is incredibly skinny in width, we would call that a fine hair strand. It’s important to note that someone can have very thick hair in density, but fine strands in texture.
Yes, that may be what TP was talking about--hair density. But when people mention the EDAR gene in relation to East Asians, they're talking about hair strand thickness and a larger follicle size.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Agreed. Thick/Straight hair may be cumulative due to different genes just as pigmentation. But many scientist characterize Native American/Asian hair texture EDAR. And of course shovel teeth comes into play.
You may be right, bro. Seems like there is some parallel evolution going on in Europe and East Asia, with both regions having their own variants. The derived EDAR variant may be one of these on the East Asian side. But, given the fact that the recently discovered European variant only explains ~6%, it says little about the hair texture of early OOA groups.
Quote: "These variants are at their highest frequency in Northern Europeans, paralleling the distribution of the straight-hair EDAR variant in Asian populations."
Source: Common Variants in the Trichohyalin Gene Are Associated with Straight Hair in Europeans
Posted by Nodnarb (Member # 3735) on :
I know I recently shared a study in the Facebook group showing that there were certain morphological differences between "kinky" African and Melanesian hairs, so it's possible Melanesian forms may not simply reflect a holdover from OOA.
Regardless, I say we consider that straighter hair forms are the norm across primates, and that the "kinky" form appears unique to the human lineage. Whatever selected for these differences in hair texture, could it be that the genetic potential for straighter hair has still been inherited by all human populations (even African on es), and it just took certain conditions to turn this inherited potential back on? If so, this could mean reversions to non-kinky hair could have happened all over the place bot within and outside of Africa. Your thoughts?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Yes, that may be what TP was talking about--hair density. But when people mention the EDAR gene in relation to East Asians, they're talking about hair strand thickness and a larger follicle size.
- Hair strand thickness IS folicle size, that is not "and" it's the same thing
-A distinguishing feature of East Asian hair is it's SHAPE which determines texture : straight, wavy, curly, tight coil East Asian hair has a circular cross section and that makes it's shape straight cross section strand SHAPE determines TEXTURE
-The third factor is DENSITY, not shown on the chart, and density here is not determined by TEXTURE (STRAND SHAPE) Density means how many of these individual strands are clustered in a given area of the scalp
So if someone says a person going bald has "thinning" hair it can lead to confusion bcause they are really talking about density. The balding person could have thick hair (individual strand) or thin hair (individual strand) yet be losing density the same way
So to be clear in a scientifc dsicussion the following could be used
Texture Type (straight, wavy, curly, spiral coiled)
Folicle size (large 'coarse' strand or samll 'fine' strand)
Density (high or low)
________________
by excluding "thick" and "thin" as terms there is less room for unclearity
Posted by Nodnarb (Member # 3735) on :
To name an analogous situation (i.e. genetic potential for certain phenotypes lying within organisms that don't necessarily express those phenotypes):
quote:Previous authors noted that ornithischian quills/protofeathers were morphologically distinct from those in theropods [6,19]. Our analyses support suggestions that these features should not be regarded a priori as homologous with theropod epidermal structures: ornithischian quills/protofeathers plausibly represent epidermal structures that evolved independently, and may be indicative of a more general ornithodiran tendency to experiment with epidermal features. The latter possibility is suggested by: possession of feathers and protofeathers in theropods [2–5]; presence of filamentous coverings in at least some pterosaurs [18]; and development of elaborate midline scale frills in hadrosaurs and sauropods (electronic supplementary material, S1). As archosaur scales, claws and feathers are composed of β-keratins [20,21], it is possible that the elaboration of all complex ornithodiran epidermal structures was underpinned by the same developmental and regulatory mechanisms ([22]: which, for unknown reasons, were not expressed in the majority of non-coelurosaurian dinosaurs). Molecular phylogenies of β-keratin families indicate that those found in feathers are the latest diverging among archosaurs and may not have appeared prior to the evolution of crown birds, whereas scale and ‘feather-like’ β-keratins diverged earlier [21]. This suggests a scenario in which scales and feather-like structures may have appeared (and diversified) via numerous independent acquisitions in Ornithodira, with true feathers appearing only in birds and their proximate theropod outgroups.
And that study on African and Melanesian hair I invoked previously:
quote:Although hair form has received much attention in the past, it has rarely been studied systematically, and never using direct curling variables. In the present study, seven groups were scored on eight variables, including four newly-devised curling variables. These data were analyzed using univariate and multivariate techniques to give information about the population relations and mechanisms of hair form. “Racial” groups were separated using a principal components analysis. African and Melanesian populations were shown to have significantly different quantitative hair form traits, especially in regard to their regularity of curvature. The physiological, environmental, and genetic factors contributing to hair form variation are discussed.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
@Nodnarb
If I'm reading your comment correctly, I think per Mendelian and classical genetics, the answer is no. According to these schools of thought there is no dormant potential for straight hair in curly haired populations. Once a population becomes fixed for an allele, the genetic variation at that locus gets lost forever. But new (read: old, but often ignored) data shows that there is much more to the genome when it comes to gene expression (as well as gene inheritance). I'm not up to date on that. Good suggestion though. It's often overlooked in population genetics.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nodnarb:
Regardless, I say we consider that straighter hair forms are the norm across primates, and that the "kinky" form appears unique to the human lineage.
what is the hair type of sheep and poodles?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Unlike EDAR 1540C allele, no extended LD was observed from rs4752566-T allele of FGFR2 in CHB+JPT (Figures 1b and c), suggesting that the higher population frequency of rs4752566-T in CHB+JPT than YRI and CEU has not been attained by recent positive selection. As rs4752566-T is observed in YRI (Table 1), a mutation of rs4752566-T appears to predate the ‘out-of-Africa’ event of modern humans. Thus, high interpopulation differentiation of rs4752566 may have been caused by random genetic drift, although it is difficult to fully exclude the possibility of positive selection having acted in ancestors of East Asian origin because the extended LD, as a signature of positive selection, is difficult to be detected for a standing allele such as rs4752566-T.6
As EDAR 1540C allele is almost absent in African and European ancestors,7 the mutation is considered to have occurred in the ancestors of Asian after the split from the ancestors of European origin. Thus, the possibility of local adaptation or positive selection related to hair thickness in non-Asian populations could not be discussed in our previous study.2, 3 If thicker hair is always advantageous in humans, an allele associated with thicker hair is expected to be highly frequent in all the populations where it exists. The rs4752566-T allele, which was found to be associated with hair thickness has lower population frequency in YRI and CEU (Table 1), implying that thicker hair may have been less advantageous in the African and European than in East Asian populations or selection intensity may be different among populations.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Thick hair can be straight.
"Thick" in this case means thick individual hair strands, like this extreme case:
The genome of a man who lived on the western coast of Greenland some 4,000 years ago has been decoded, thanks to the surprisingly good preservation of DNA in a swatch of his hair so thick it was originally thought to be from a bear.
But yeah, thick hair strands can be straight. In the case of East Asians thick and straight hair strands are dominant.
Yes, I suspected that. So what you say is that the diameter of the hair is being measured.
The strained thickness. It causes the hair to be more stiff. I know this from Asian friends. At one time I heard a Afgan dude also mentioning this. He say my hair is so "hard".
I had white Dutch friends explaining that their hair is different from Germans hair texture. And how Germans have even "softer / thinner hair."
Then my cousin used to be a barber, he told me about the hair textures of kinky hair. Going from loose and soft to extremely coiled. I do think it is due to the follicle size.
Moral of the story, hair is more complex than we consider it to be.
In general these are the hair types known. I will try to find more info on the follicle size.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Yes, that may be what TP was talking about--hair density. But when people mention the EDAR gene in relation to East Asians, they're talking about hair strand thickness and a larger follicle size.
- Hair strand thickness IS folicle size, that is not "and" it's the same thing
-A distinguishing feature of East Asian hair is it's SHAPE which determines texture : straight, wavy, curly, tight coil East Asian hair has a circular cross section and that makes it's shape straight cross section strand SHAPE determines TEXTURE
-The third factor is DENSITY, not shown on the chart, and density here is not determined by TEXTURE (STRAND SHAPE) Density means how many of these individual strands are clustered in a given area of the scalp
So if someone says a person going bald has "thinning" hair it can lead to confusion bcause they are really talking about density. The balding person could have thick hair (individual strand) or thin hair (individual strand) yet be losing density the same way
So to be clear in a scientifc dsicussion the following could be used
Texture Type (straight, wavy, curly, spiral coiled)
Folicle size (large 'coarse' strand or samll 'fine' strand)
Density (high or low)
________________
by excluding "thick" and "thin" as terms there is less room for unclearity
quote:"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories.
Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable".
--Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
This hair may look irrelevant at the moment, but it will come at hand at a later point. So don't consider this spamming.
quote: Cyclic Expression of Lhx2 Regulates Hair Formation
Abstract
Hair is important for thermoregulation, physical protection, sensory activity, seasonal camouflage, and social interactions. Hair is generated in hair follicles (HFs) and, following morphogenesis, HFs undergo cyclic phases of active growth (anagen), regression (catagen), and inactivity (telogen) throughout life. The transcriptional regulation of this process is not well understood. We show that the transcription factor Lhx2 is expressed in cells of the outer root sheath and a subpopulation of matrix cells during both morphogenesis and anagen. As the HFs enter telogen, expression becomes undetectable and reappears prior to initiation of anagen in the secondary hair germ. In contrast to previously published results, we find that Lhx2 is primarily expressed by precursor cells outside of the bulge region where the HF stem cells are located. This developmental, stage- and cell-specific expression suggests that Lhx2 regulates the generation and regeneration of hair. In support of this hypothesis, we show that Lhx2 is required for anagen progression and HF morphogenesis. Moreover, transgenic expression of Lhx2 in postnatal HFs is sufficient to induce anagen. Thus, our results reveal an alternative interpretation of Lhx2 function in HFs compared to previously published results, since Lhx2 is periodically expressed, primarily in precursor cells distinct from those in the bulge region, and is an essential positive regulator of hair formation.
Author Summary
Hair is generated in hair follicles, complex mini-organs in the skin that are devoted to this task. All hair follicles are generated during embryonic development. The hair follicles generate a new hair shaft by cycling through stages of regression, rest, and growth continuously throughout life. The length of the growth phase determines the length of the hair. The reason(s) for this complicated regulation of hair growth is not clear, but it has been suggested that it may accommodate seasonal variations in hair growth. In this study we have identified the transcription factor Lhx2 as an important regulator of hair formation. The Lhx2 gene is active during the growth phase of the hair follicle and is turned off during the resting phase. We confirm that Lhx2 is functionally involved in hair formation, since hair follicles where Lhx2 has been inactivated are unable to make hair. Moreover, activation of the Lhx2 gene in hair follicles induced the growth phase and hence hair formation. Thus, Lhx2 is an important regulator of hair growth.
Hmm typo. This hair = here.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Bump
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
The most common classification system of hair today is the Andrew Walker system based on 4 main catergories-- straight, wavy, curly, and coiled-- and 3 subtypes for each based on curvature-- a, b, and c, giving 12 types in total.
Hair texture on the other hand is based on shaft thickness with 3 types-- fine, medium, and thick/coarse.
Diversity of Hair Types To characterize the diversity of hair types worldwide and identify their various properties, L’Oréal researchers have studied several different parameters: the shape of the hair shaft, the structure of the hair fibre components, the growth of the hair follicle and its pigmentation. They have drawn on techniques from biology, chemistry and biophysics, using optical and digital microscopic imaging.
Fifty percent of the world’s population has dark to very dark brown hair As with skin, the diversity of hair types worldwide is reflected in a continuum of colour. An evaluation of natural hair colour based on volunteers’ geographical origin, age and sex showed that the natural colour of over 80% of the world’s population ranges [1] from black to light brown, and almost 50% of the population has dark or very dark brown hair. Blonde colours are mainly limited to Northern and Eastern Europe, while Asian, Melanesian and African hair is characterised by darker colours and less diversity.
Note that while light hair color is most frequent among Europeans, Oceanians are second to them.
From very straight to very curly hair Hair shaft shape ranges from “straight with a circular cross-section” to “kinky with a highly elliptical cross-section and areas of torsion”. While shape is not specific to a given ethnic group, Asian hair is usually straight with a round cross-section, African hair tends to be twisted with a flattened cross-section and European hair is somewhere in between [2].
However, in order to move away from the three conventional ethnic groups (African, Asian and Caucasian) and take into account the complex biological diversity created by extensive multiethnicity, L’Oréal researchers have established four hair shape descriptors: Curve diameter (CD), Curl index (i), Number of waves (w), and The Number of twists (t).
Human hair shape is programmed from the bulb The bulb of curly hair is curved, while that of straight hair is straight in shape. L’Oréal biologists also found that the shape of the bulb is linked to asymmetry in cell differentiation programmes. The curve of the hair is created by an internal mechanical force [4].
The speed at which hair grows depends on its shape Hair growth measurements [5] using phototrichograms found that:
African hair is characterised by both slow hair growth (280 +/- 50 μm per day regardless of sex or scalp area) and low hair density (161 +/- 50 hairs per cm2, with a greater number on the vertex)
Chinese hair also has a low density (175 +/- 54 hairs per cm2 ) but grows very fast (411 +/- 53 μm per day)
Caucasian hair grows at an intermediate rate of 367 +/- 56 μm per day and is very dense (226 +/- 73 hairs per cm2).
The relationship between hair growth rate and hair morphology [6] was identified based on the observation that thick hair strands (types I and II) grow quickly, whereas thin hair strands grow more slowly
Curly hair is more fragile than straight hair The physical differences measured when comparing several African American hair samples with different curl patterns suggest that the curl pattern influences the behaviour of the hair, and in particular its resistance to mechanical stress [7] . The curlier the hair, the smaller the curve diameter and, given that very curly hair stretches less under stress, it is more likely to break.
But again as this thread has exposed, the three way racial categories of 'African', 'Asian', and 'Caucasian' for hair is invalid due to too many exceptions. For examples not all African hair is coiled and not all coiled hair is African. North and East Africans for example have loose hair that's curly or wavy while some Oceanians like Melanesians have coiled hair while Australians have wavy or straight hair.
This is where other methods of hair classification like Franz Boas trichometric index come in.
Study on Ancient Egyptian Hair In the 1970s, Czech anthropologist Eugen Strouhal published a study in the Journal of African History that shed new light on the hair of predynastic Egyptians, or those at the root of the civilization. Strouhal used a trichometer to measure the minimum and maximum diameter of the hair shafts of predynastic Egyptians and calculated an index. He observed that predynastic Badarian Egyptians had hair indices ranging from 35 to 65. Other studies have also looked at the hair of ancient Egyptians. For example, a study of hair samples from the 18th to the 25th dynasties found an average value of 51, and German anthropologist Dr. Pruner-Bey analyzed hair samples in 1877 and found an average index of 64.4.
According to Titlbach and Titlbachova, two Czech scientists, the average of modern human hair is between 60 and 110 micrometres, with 60 being the kinkiest and 110 the straightest. These averages vary by race, with European hair having an average of 71, Chinese hair having an average of 83, and Sub-Saharan African hair having an average of 60.
These are the averages of hair cross-sections according to races: 1. For European hair it is 71, 2. For Chinese hair it is 83, 3. For Native American hair it is 77, 4. For Asian Indians it is 73, 5. For Other Sub-Saharan Africans it is 60.
In details: 1. San, Southern Africans 55.O0 2. Zulu, Southern Africans 55.O0 3. Sub-Saharan Africa 60.O0 4. Tasmanian (Black) 64.70 5. Australian (Black) 68.00 6. Western European 71.20 7. Asian Indians 73.00 8. Navajo American 77.00 9. Chinese 82.60
When compared to these averages, it is clear that the hair of ancient Egyptians had indices that were relatively low, indicating a kinkier or curlier texture.
According to all these researchers, the hair of the predynastic Egyptians had indices ranging from 35 to 65. Knowing that the average of modern human hair is between 60 and 110 micrometers. 60 being the kinkiest, and 110 the straightest. We can see that from 35 to 65 we remain very close or even below 60 which is the average for modern Black people, and which is the kinkiest average in human hair today.
Speaking of Oceanians, this reminds me of Lioness's conjecture early in this thread that loose hair form is somehow "cold adapted" when there are black skinned tropically adapted populations who possess that trait including Australian Aboriginals.
At a short train stop at Golden Ridge, east of Kalgoorlie, in 1923, an anonymous Indigenous man donated a lock of his hair to British ethnologist Alfred Cort Haddon who was on his way to Perth from Sydney.
Mr Haddon, who was studying race based on hair samples, took it with him back to England where it was placed in the Cambridge Museum of Archaeology.
It was then taken to Duckworth Laboratory led by anthropologist Jack Trevor and wound up with Danish evolutionary biologist Eske Willerslev from the University of Copenhagen, Denmark.
Mr Willerslev wanted to extract DNA from it in his ambition to provide the first Aboriginal Australian genome. While hair strands don't have DNA, the roots do and traces can be found from a person touching them.
But during his study, which took place in 2011, he found a longer history of Indigenous Australia than previously believed – that Aboriginal Australians are likely descendants of people dispersing into eastern Asia possibly up to 75,000 years ago.
He used mathematics modelling to compare autosomal DNA – 23 pairs of chromosomes in the nucleus – found in the hair strands, to DNA from other parts of the world to determine if there were any similarities.
He found a common ancestor that dated back possibly between 62,000 and 75,000 years ago.
Around that time, Indigenous Australians genetically separated from the people who became Europeans and Asians, according to human geneticist Dr John Mitchell.
He told NITV News that Indigenous Australians once lived on the land mass, known as Sahul, with other ethnic groups, but they did not mix.
“When the people came in to [Sahul], they went their ways very early and then stayed separate,” Dr Mitchell says.
So when the land mass broke into what we now know as Australia, New Guinea, Seram and neighbouring islands, the people on each continent were distinctly genetically different.
“This applies even in the Torres Strait,” he says. “We’ve got some samples from Torres Strait [and DNA from the maternal line, known as] mitochondria, genetically, are not like mainland Australians.
“We don’t find Australian mainland lineages in the Torres Strait. But we do find New Guinean in Torres Strait.”..
The first major genomic study of Aboriginal Australians has provided several new pieces in the puzzle of how modern humans spread across the world. Published in Nature along with two other related papers on worldwide genetic diversity, this research addressed a fundamental question in human population history by finding evidence for a single major “Out of Africa” migration event.
As part of an international team of scientists and Aboriginal Australians, researchers from the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute also showed that Aboriginal Australian and Papuan people have remained genetically independent from the rest of the world until very recent times.
How Australia was initially populated, and how changes in language and culture in the continent happened, has been debated for many years. Australia contains some of the oldest archaeological evidence of modern humans outside Africa, dating back to about 50,000 years. Yet, 90 per cent of Aboriginal Australians speak languages belonging to a single linguistic family that dates back no more than a few thousand years.
Working closely with Aboriginal community elders and representative organisations, the international team of scientists developed consent to sequence the Aboriginal Australian genomes. Using DNA extracted from saliva, the team sequenced the genomes of 83 Aboriginal Australians and 25 Papuans from the highlands of New Guinea, just north of Australia. They then compared them to each other and to existing data from other parts of the world to infer the history of these populations.
With this first large-scale study of genomes of Aboriginal Australians the researchers found, in contrast to many earlier theories, that this population derived the vast majority of its genetic ancestry from the same wave of migrants as all other present-day non-African populations, who left Africa approximately 60-70,000 years ago.
The DNA sequences showed that the ancestors of Aboriginal Australians and Papuans had then split from Europeans and Asians by at least 51,000 years ago. By comparison, the ancestors of Europeans and Asians only became genetically distinct from each other roughly 10,000 years later.[/b] The researchers charted several further divergence events in which various parts of the population became separated.
"We compared the genomes of Papuan people to those of Aboriginal Australians, and discovered that these two populations are actually strikingly distinct from each other. Surprisingly, Papuans and Aboriginal Australians appear to have diverged from each other at least 25,000 years ago, even though the landmasses of Australia and New Guinea were only separated by rising sea levels less than 10,000 years ago.” --Anders Bergström, a first author on the paper from the Sanger Institute
This genetic distinction may explain why Australians have loose wavy hair while Papuans have coiled hair, though the two populations are closest related to each other than with anyone else.
Though I do find it interesting that the vast majority of Australia is subtropical desert though that wasn't always the case and the same is true with the Sahara which is a desert that stretches from subtropical to tropical and that the Aussie Aborigines hair is very similar to North Africans like Beja.
Australian
Beja Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Speaking of Oceanians, this reminds me of Lioness's conjecture early in this thread that loose hair form is somehow "cold adapted" when there are black skinned tropically adapted populations who possess that trait including Australian Aboriginals.
I assume when you say "black skinned" you mean brown skinned or dark skinned but are using race lingo. The hair type on the most oldest African skulls is unknown. It is not known, that if one hair type did transition into another, why it did.
> That would also take time and if skin color would also undergo changes we cannot expect it to necessarily occur at the same time as hair type.
Apes like chimpanzees with genetic similarity to humans are covered in straight hair but it does not grow long from the head as with humans and many Africans have less body hair than some people outside of Africa, so none of this is easy to figure out.
A human population leaving Africa 50,000 years ago eventually who may have settled in Australia may have first settled in many places in between before winding up in Australia (and not knowing where they were going). They could potentially have been in cold environments and this could have caused their hair to straighten which is warmer than coiled hair and, if long, can also cover the neck and shoulders. That's just a theory as to why it could have straightened and another theory that when the ancestors of this population were in Africa they had straight or less coiled hair. -but this is better than no theory at all
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I assume when you say "black skinned" you mean brown skinned or darks skinned but are using race lingo. The hair type on the most oldest African skulls is unknown. It is not known, that if one hair type did transition into another, why it did.
If 'black' is a "race lingo" then the ancient Greeks were guilty of it with melanchroe and the Indians with kalu. But if you don't like that term then how about the term 'melanoderm' or heavy pigmented?? The point is such complexions are a sign of tropical adaptation just like long limb proportions, yet we are to believe their straighter hair is a cold adaptation??
quote:> That would also take time and if skin color would also undergo changes we cannot expect it to necessarily occur at the same time as hair type.
Skin color aside, we know it takes much longer for limb proportions to adapt to cold by many tens of thousands of years yet we are expected to believe a population became cold adapted then tropically adapted again, instead of the simpler occam's razor position that hair variability was already existed in tropically adapted populations who remained in tropical climes though other differences in environment such as humid vs. dry may explain the difference.
quote:Apes like chimpanzees with genetic similarity to humans are covered in straight hair but it does not grow long from the head as with humans and many Africans have less body hair than some people outside of Africa, so none of this is easy to figure out.
I believe your point about chimps was made by Swenet or someone else in this thread. Their hair is straight yet they live not only in tropical/equatorial regions but regions that are very humid. So that itself should be a huge wrench in your hypothesis.
quote:A human population leaving Africa 50,000 years ago eventually who may have settled in Australia may have first settled in many places in between before winding up in Australia (and not knowing where they were going). They could potentially have been in cold environments and this could have caused their hair to straighten which is warmer than coiled hair and, if long, can also cover the neck and shoulders. That's just a theory as to why it could have straightened and another theory that when the ancestors of this population were in Africa they had straight or less coiled hair. -but this is better than no theory at all
Actually most geneticists agree that Australasians descend from people who took a southern route once out-of-Africa hugging the coast.
This is supported by geology showing there was a mega-desert that prevented AM Humans from migrating further north until late in the Pleistocene so add all this with no evidence of a yo-yo tropical to cold to tropical adaptation again, and well, it makes no sense.
“By 90kya, a global freeze turned most of Africa above the equator into extreme desert along with most of Arabia and the Levant. The only evidence of hominids in the Levant at that time come from a few Neanderthal habitations.” Stephen Oppenheimer.
We discussed this earlier in the thread where you were thoroughly debunked. Why do keep rehashing the same nonsense again?
Africans
non-Africans
What is interesting is that when it comes to trichometric index mainland Australians seem to be intermediate between Europeans and Tasmanians with the latter being intermediate between mainland Australians and Sub-Saharans.
3. Sub-Saharan Africa 60.O0 4. Tasmanian (Black) 64.70 5. Australian (Black) 68.00 6. Western European 71.20
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Do you have any data on the trichometric index of peoples like the Onge and Jarawas on the Andaman islands?
What can data from aDNA tell us about hair type and texture? Can we also from such data know what kind of hair our cousins Neanderthals and Denisovans had? I know that hair color is possible to deduce from well preserved aDNA but what about texture and curliness?
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:originally posted by Djehuti If 'black' is a "race lingo" then the ancient Greeks were guilty of it with
Black was (and is) an oversimplification. In reality the expression includes several brown nuances. Few people are literally black.
In the same way also white is an oversimplification since it includes different, pink, beige and light brown nuances. The problem is to replace them with something better.
Today these terms are also rather politically charged. On top of that we have people who have the same skin color as many Europeans but are not included in the term white (as East Asians), at least not in Europe or USA, and many brown peoples are not seen (or see themselves) as black.
But this has been discussed before, so it is maybe not so much to add.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Of course the label of 'black' has no color or rather complexion nuance because it is a blanket adjective based on exaggeration of contrast. The same is true for the label 'white'.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Do you have any data on the trichometric index of peoples like the Onge and Jarawas on the Andaman islands?
What can data from aDNA tell us about hair type and texture? Can we also from such data know what kind of hair our cousins Neanderthals and Denisovans had? I know that hair color is possible to deduce from well preserved aDNA but what about texture and curliness?
I don't know about their trichometric index, but I do know that there is a difference in hair type between the Great Andamanese and the Onge and Jarawa. The former has regular coiled or 'kinky' hair similar to most Sub-Saharans while the latter has extremely coiled or 'peppercorn' hair similar to Khoisan people of Southern Africa. There are also differences, in certain facial and body features between the two groups which suggest that like the Pygmies of Central Africa the Andamanese are not homogeneous. Read The Genetic Origins of the Andaman Islanders (2003) and the more recent Genetic differentiation of Andaman Islanders and their relatedness to Nicobar Islanders (2023)
As far as autosomal genes, I know that Andamanese carry the signal for Population Y. I forgot if they carry Denisovan ancestry but definitely the highest frequency is found in Philippine Negrito groups. I don't know about which genes control for hair form but it obviously involves multiple genes.
I think I read that the Onge has no Denisovan ancestry unlike for example the Ayta Magbukon in the Philippines who has the highest.
quote:The Philippine ethnic group Ayta Magbukon has the highest proportion of genes from our extinct relatives, the Denisovans, a new study led by Uppsala University shows. Their Denisovan share far exceeds that of ethnic groups in Papua New Guinea, who previously held the record. The study is published in the scientific journal Current Biology.
About the hair of different groups, when we better understand the interplay between genes and hair types, and hair texture, we can perhaps with more certainty know what hair the ancient peoples had, and also which adaptations changes in hair correlates to. It of course craves relatively well preserved aDNA.
It is interesting that Onge has the Y signal but no Denisova ancestry. At the same time Native Americans with the Y-signal have roughly the same amount of Denisova ancestry as mainland Asians.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] I assume when you say "black skinned" you mean brown skinned or darks skinned but are using race lingo. The hair type on the most oldest African skulls is unknown. It is not known, that if one hair type did transition into another, why it did.
If 'black' is a "race lingo" then the ancient Greeks were guilty of it with [url=https://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009393\melanchroe[/url] and the Indians with kalu. But if you don't like that term then how about the term 'melanoderm' or heavy pigmented?? The point is such complexions are a sign of tropical adaptation just like long limb proportions, yet we are to believe their straighter hair is a cold adaptation??
This is 2024 so when describing people anthropologically like in a science journal we don't go by ancient Greek interpretations or kalu.
How do we describe a dark skinned person anthropologically today?
How do we describe a brown skinned person anthropologically today?
We describe them as dark skinned or brown or dark brown or "heavily pigmented" as you said. -just as we would a chocolate bar as brown or darks in color and not describe it as black
So when you hear a term like "white" or "black" in 2024 applied to people neither white nor black, it's a race word.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
the simpler occam's razor position that hair variability already existed in tropically adapted populations who remained in tropical climes though other differences in environment such as humid vs. dry may explain the difference.
Please explain this simple position so we're clear on it
Which hair type is caused by adaptation to humid environments?
and which hair type is is caused by adaptation to dry environments?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ I thought it's apparent to you from my posts, it's just a conjecture but it holds a lot more weight from what you are proposing-- cold adaptation then hot again. LOL I just showed you all the evidence why your claim is ridiculous. Swenet has already stated earlier in this thread that the more likely scenario is that a wide variety of hair types including loose and wavy already existed among tropically adapted folks either in Africa before OOA or after the initial OOA. There is no evidence of cold adaptation as an explanation.
Even in the case of North Africans like the Egyptians and Nubians who exhibit loose hair, their skeletal builds are classified as "supra-negroid" or supra-tropical similar to South Sudanese yet we are to believe only their hair is 'cold adapted'. LOL Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I thought it's apparent to you from my posts, it's just a conjecture but it holds a lot more weight from what you are proposing-- cold adaptation then hot again. LOL I just showed you all the evidence why your claim is ridiculous. Swenet has already stated earlier in this thread that the more likely scenario is that a wide variety of hair types including loose and wavy already existed among tropically adapted folks either in Africa before OOA or after the initial OOA. There is no evidence of cold adaptation as an explanation.
Even in the case of North Africans like the Egyptians and Nubians who exhibit loose hair, their skeletal builds are classified as "supra-negroid" or supra-tropical similar to South Sudanese yet we are to believe only their hair is 'cold adapted'. LOL
Please explain this simple position so we're clear on it
Which hair type is caused by adaptation to humid environments?
and which hair type is is caused by adaptation to dry environments?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
the simpler occam's razor position that hair variability already existed in tropically adapted populations who remained in tropical climes though other differences in environment such as humid vs. dry may explain the difference.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Masaai women they are of a dry climate
..and Khoi/San, dry climate
.
..and Australians
Your theory is that a tribe of Africans looked like this and then went to Australia My theory is that tribe of Africa do not look like this and that this type of hair is not due to dry conditions, coiled springy hair is better to let off perspiration
People leaving Africa who would become Australians would not know they were going to Australia. So my theory is that they got hair like this being in a colder area before eventually arriving in Australia and that skin color can change must faster than hair type. There is no reason to believe that people who would wind up in Australia starting out 50-60,000 years ago did not settle in other places before winding up there or stuck to a route always southerly as if they knew they would going to Australia and wanted to stay on course.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Beja [/QB]
Beja J1 35.7% (Hassan 2008)
"Fuzzy-Wuzzy" was the term used by British soldiers for Beja warriors Many don't have wavy-straight that the boy at the top does So you would have to use a more homogeneous African population that is not 35% J1 as an example, instead 90%+ one haplogroup
Posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey (Member # 22253) on :
^^^^ so is this the same guy as he got older? His hair changed texture after he got older? NOT SURPRISED and if he lives long it enough it might go straight again.
Gil Scott Heron was someone else I noticed who had a full fro as an adult and his hair reverted textures as he got older, another reason to be careful of eyeballing mummies of pharaohs.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Here is an article talking about hair. It talks about different aspects of curly hair, among other things about how many percent of Africans, Asians and Europeans who have curly hair. The article does not discuss much about other groups like Australians or Papuans.
quote:The terms ‘European hair’ and ‘Caucasian hair’ are often used interchangeably and are taken to denote ‘wavy’ to ‘straight’ hair; ‘East Asian’ hair is taken to mean ‘pin-straight’ hair; and ‘African’ or ‘ethnic’ hair is taken to signify ‘curly’ or ‘very curly’ hair. A variation of ‘African hair’ is ‘Afro hair’ and afro-textured hair, to signify ‘very curly’ hair. These assumptions are essentially flawed since many individuals from both of the first two groups have curly hair. While the degree of curliness among Europeans and Asians is generally lower than that in Africans, some Europeans and Asians have kinky or very curly hair. From genotyping results, European hair shape varies mostly between wavy (46.6%) and straight (40.7%), with some curly hair (12.7%) (n = 2138) [10]. The same study showed that Asian (East and West) hair shape is also mostly straight (46.7%) or wavy (41.3%), with some curly hair (12%) (n = 92). However, African hair shape is mostly curly (94.9%), with some wavy hair (5.1%) (n = 39). No distinction was made between degrees of curliness or waviness, or whether ‘stick straight’ and ‘near straight’ were regarded as similar. An important fact indicated by the study is the high incidence (greater than 50%) of non-straight fibres in individuals of European and Asian ancestry. Another important fact about curly hair was the large variability in the degree of curl among individuals of African ancestry [11,12]. From these studies, it became clear that a single curl cluster for ‘curly hair’ is specious. Hair-specific taxonomies are described later in this paper. Of relevance to the immediate discussion is an awareness of terminology that is used in curly hair research.
quote:From an anthropological viewpoint, environmental factors relating to scalp cooling or heat retention form an evolutionary assumption to explain the ‘why’ behind hair curliness [13,71]. Accordingly, the dominating ancient hominid scalp hair form was curly because of the ability of the curved shape to raise the fibre root away from the skin, thereby delivering both UV protection and scalp cooling. Migrating from the hot climate of Africa into colder areas, evolutionary adaptation is thought to have caused changes in hair shape and colour. Sufficient evidence to confirm the hypothesis has not yet been found.
To Lioness, you keep rehashing the same arguments that were debunked pages ago in this thread.
First off, there is NO evidence whatsoever that the original OOA or Proto-Eurasian ancestors of Australian Aborigines was ever "cold adapted". These original OOA populations remained in the tropical zone for a long time due to climatic reasons (desert barrier). This is why colonization of Eurasia in the temperate zone came late.
This also does not explain why the Aborigines' closest relatives the Papuans have coiled hair. My conjecture of humid vs. dry is simply that. I have no actual evidence but climate history which is why your Khoisan example falls flat since the Khoisan are confined to the Namib Desert today though all archaeologists and anthropologists agree their ancestors were obviously more widespread in Sub-Sahara.
As for loose hair form being due to Eurasian admixture, again that claim was debunked earlier in this thread. First of all, there are many Africans that have such a hair type with little to NO Eurasian admixture at all.
An example would be the alleged Eurasian admixture in Horn Africans based on autosomal markers.
Amhara have more Eurasian admixture than Somalis yet wavy or straight hair occurs at higher frequencies in the latter than the former. The former also has high frequencies of Neanderthal admixture along with Cameroonian Fulani who historically intermarried with Europeans.
Neanderthals carried genes acquired from ancient interactions with ‘cousins’ of modern humans In some specific sub-Saharan populations, the researchers also found evidence of Neanderthal ancestry that was introduced to these populations when humans bearing Neanderthal genes migrated back into Africa. Neanderthal ancestry in these sub-Saharan populations ranged from 0 to 1.5%, and the highest levels were observed in the Amhara from Ethiopia and Fulani from Cameroon.
Yet both Cameroonian Fulani and Amhara have coiled kinky hair whereas pastoral Fulani of Niger and the Sahel have looser curly hair. Also the vast majority of Sub-Saharans who have recent admixture with Eurasians like Europeans are born with coiled hair and even those with less coiled hair have curly hair. Very few are born with wavy hair yet such hair is very common among Africans in or around the Sahara despite their very dark skin and other tropical adaptations.
So the the very loose hair form deserves some explanation other than simply adaptation to "cold".
Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
I like the idea Swenet has brought up before that hair texture variation in modern humans may be in part due to pleitropic effects of certain genes rather than being entirely adaptive. The EDAR gene influencing straight hair in East Asians and Native Americans along with a number of the other soft-tissue traits we associate with those groups (e.g. shovel-shaped incisors IIRC) would be an example of that.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The hairy timeline of evolution – Fellows’ seminar by Nina Jablonski 27 January 2020
Jablonski and one of her PhD students, who is collaborating with investigators at Loughborough University, used thermal manikins to test the effect of different hair types – straight, wavy and tight curly – on solar radiation falling on the top of the head.
The tight curls showed minimum heat gain. Tightly curled hair disseminates heat and resists heat gain – making it more suitable for warmer conditions. Straight hair was inferior at dissipating heat but enhances heat gain – thus is more suitable for cooler conditions.
Tina Lasisia, James W.Small ,W.Larry Kenneye, MarkD. Shriver, Benjamin Zydneya, Nina G.Jablonski and George Havenith
January31,2023; accepted April 26, 2023
Our findings support the notion that, like other mammalian species, hair on human scalps reduces heat gain from solar radiation. Notably, we found that tightly curled hair provides greater protection from heat gain than straight hair, representing a significant contribution to the literature.
If we take into account the relative importance of such behavioral adaptations, it would provide us with a better understanding of when scalp hair(curled or not) may have become an evolutionary advantage. Additionally, future studies may consider the potential for selection on straighter hair in colder environments, as our findings show that tightly curled hair maximizes heat loss, but this may not have been favorable in colder climates. Such considerations would provide us with a better understanding of when scalp hair(curled or not) may have represented an evolutionary advantage
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
My conjecture of humid vs. dry is simply that.
So what hair type do you think is associated with a dry climate? And do you have any sources supporting your theory?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Ust Ishim allegedly has a "WHG" allele for light eyes, already at 45ky, awfully close to mtDNA N OOA migration of ~55ky. If that Russian article is correct, I'm not sure that was supposed to happen under mainstream OOA simple math of a 55ky old migration, a 55ky TMRCA, and with all migrants and Neanderthals having ancestral SNPs for eye pigmentation.
Extrapolating this to hair texture, you can see that we're not necessarily working with correct premises.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
It seems that the fossils of Homo sapiens outside Africa get older and older. Thus alleged H sapiens in Greece could be as old as 210 000 years (in Apidima cave) and a find of H sapiens in Misliya cave in Israel could be as old as 185 000 years. In Jebel Faya in UAE there has been found 125 000 years old traces of what is considered anatomically modern H sapiens.
Also in France the time of arrival for Homo sapiens is pushed back with new finds. Among the oldest so far is a 54 000 years old tooth in Mandrin cave.
The question is if these early migrants got some descendants among todays people or if they died out.
When concerning different hair types: to exactly know if and what environmental factors affected hair type we have to know when these different hair types arose and where the ancestors to different peoples lived at that time. which environmental circumstances were prevalent at certain times in those places?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
At a short train stop at Golden Ridge, east of Kalgoorlie, in 1923, an anonymous Indigenous man donated a lock of his hair to British ethnologist Alfred Cort Haddon who was on his way to Perth from Sydney.
Mr Haddon, who was studying race based on hair samples, took it with him back to England where it was placed in the Cambridge Museum of Archaeology.
It was then taken to Duckworth Laboratory led by anthropologist Jack Trevor and wound up with Danish evolutionary biologist Eske Willerslev from the University of Copenhagen, Denmark.
Mr Willerslev wanted to extract DNA from it in his ambition to provide the first Aboriginal Australian genome. While hair strands don't have DNA, the roots do and traces can be found from a person touching them.
But during his study, which took place in 2011, he found a longer history of Indigenous Australia than previously believed – that Aboriginal Australians are likely descendants of people dispersing into eastern Asia possibly up to 75,000 years ago.
He used mathematics modelling to compare autosomal DNA – 23 pairs of chromosomes in the nucleus – found in the hair strands, to DNA from other parts of the world to determine if there were any similarities.
He found a common ancestor that dated back possibly between 62,000 and 75,000 years ago.
Around that time, Indigenous Australians genetically separated from the people who became Europeans and Asians, according to human geneticist Dr John Mitchell.
He told NITV News that Indigenous Australians once lived on the land mass, known as Sahul, with other ethnic groups, but they did not mix.
“When the people came in to [Sahul], they went their ways very early and then stayed separate,” Dr Mitchell says.
So when the land mass broke into what we now know as Australia, New Guinea, Seram and neighbouring islands, the people on each continent were distinctly genetically different.
“This applies even in the Torres Strait,” he says. “We’ve got some samples from Torres Strait [and DNA from the maternal line, known as] mitochondria, genetically, are not like mainland Australians.
“We don’t find Australian mainland lineages in the Torres Strait. But we do find New Guinean in Torres Strait.”..
The first major genomic study of Aboriginal Australians has provided several new pieces in the puzzle of how modern humans spread across the world. Published in Nature along with two other related papers on worldwide genetic diversity, this research addressed a fundamental question in human population history by finding evidence for a single major “Out of Africa” migration event.
As part of an international team of scientists and Aboriginal Australians, researchers from the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute also showed that Aboriginal Australian and Papuan people have remained genetically independent from the rest of the world until very recent times.
How Australia was initially populated, and how changes in language and culture in the continent happened, has been debated for many years. Australia contains some of the oldest archaeological evidence of modern humans outside Africa, dating back to about 50,000 years. Yet, 90 per cent of Aboriginal Australians speak languages belonging to a single linguistic family that dates back no more than a few thousand years.
Working closely with Aboriginal community elders and representative organisations, the international team of scientists developed consent to sequence the Aboriginal Australian genomes. Using DNA extracted from saliva, the team sequenced the genomes of 83 Aboriginal Australians and 25 Papuans from the highlands of New Guinea, just north of Australia. They then compared them to each other and to existing data from other parts of the world to infer the history of these populations.
With this first large-scale study of genomes of Aboriginal Australians the researchers found, in contrast to many earlier theories, that this population derived the vast majority of its genetic ancestry from the same wave of migrants as all other present-day non-African populations, who left Africa approximately 60-70,000 years ago.
The DNA sequences showed that the ancestors of Aboriginal Australians and Papuans had then split from Europeans and Asians by at least 51,000 years ago. By comparison, the ancestors of Europeans and Asians only became genetically distinct from each other roughly 10,000 years later.[/b] The researchers charted several further divergence events in which various parts of the population became separated.
"We compared the genomes of Papuan people to those of Aboriginal Australians, and discovered that these two populations are actually strikingly distinct from each other. Surprisingly, Papuans and Aboriginal Australians appear to have diverged from each other at least 25,000 years ago, even though the landmasses of Australia and New Guinea were only separated by rising sea levels less than 10,000 years ago.” --Anders Bergström, a first author on the paper from the Sanger Institute
This genetic distinction may explain why Australians have loose wavy hair while Papuans have coiled hair, though the two populations are closest related to each other than with anyone else.
The quotes in this reply are indicative of the problems with genetics especially related to OOA and human settlement of the earth. The one guy says that the Australian aborigines stayed separate from other populations in Sahul. But then the question becomes what other populations in the Sahul if the ancestors of the Australian Aborigines were the first to settle Asia. Then they say things like Australasian Genes are distinct from Asians but the Ancestors of the Australian Aborigines and Australian Aborigines were the first Asians and are Asians today. But obviously without ancient DNA from 60 - 70 kya you will always get these misleading kinds of descriptions of ancient populations modeled solely on modern or more recent DNA.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: It seems that the fossils of Homo sapiens outside Africa get older and older. Thus alleged H sapiens in Greece could be as old as 210 000 years (in Apidima cave) and a find of H sapiens in Misliya cave in Israel could be as old as 185 000 years. In Jebel Faya in UAE there has been found 125 000 years old traces of what is considered anatomically modern H sapiens.
Also in France the time of arrival for Homo sapiens is pushed back with new finds. Among the oldest so far is a 54 000 years old tooth in Mandrin cave.
The question is if these early migrants got some descendants among todays people or if they died out.
When concerning different hair types: to exactly know if and what environmental factors affected hair type we have to know when these different hair types arose and where the ancestors to different peoples lived at that time. which environmental circumstances were prevalent at certain times in those places?
Yes. That's what I meant--that things like light eyes being found a little too close for comfort to 55ky, means, at the very least, we might need more time to explain the variations in Eurasians.
Here are some pleistocene hairs that thought to be human hair. Two of the hairs seem curly, one seems more rounded (ie associated with wavy hair texture), although I don't know if this means the hair strand belongs to someone with wavy hair (could very well be that people with tightly curled hair, can have occasional hair strands with different cross sections).
^ I remember seeing that. If that's the case then hair type diversity in that region during that time is not different from say that found in the Horn of Africa or northeastern Sudan.
Meroite skull
Egyptian Prince Maiherpri likely of Nubian ancestry
And although coiled hair occurs at a higher incidence among Nubians than Egyptians it still occurs in the latter as well.
17th Dynasty noble and royal nursemaid Lady Rai
Coiled hair when found in ancient Nubians and Egyptians tend to be of type 4a or loose coiled.
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
I read that Maiherpri hair is a wig.
Maiherperi
quote:
Maiherperi was an ancient Egyptian noble buried in tomb KV36 in the Valley of the Kings. He probably lived during the rule of Thutmose IV, and received the honour of a burial in the royal necropolis.
Tomb
quote: Maiherperi's copy of the Book of the Dead, which, in the eyes of O'Connor and Cline is "[c]ertainly the most famous and arguably the most beautiful" Book of the Dead[6] depicts him with literally "blackish" skin, leading scholars to believe he was an Egyptian of Nubian descent.[7]
His mummy was unwrapped by Georges Daressy in March 1901,[2] revealing a mummy whose dark skin matched that depicted on his copy of the Book of the Dead, and thought that this was likely Maiherperi's natural colour, unchanged by the mummification process.[8] He also had tightly curled, woolly hair, which turned out to be a wig that had been glued to his scalp.[8] Examination of his body revealed he died as a young man aged 25 to 30 years.[9]
Wikipedia.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ It is a wig and that fact has been established many times like here. The point is that his complexion and features suggest Nubian ancestry and that his wig was made either from his own hair (which was common trend) or some other Nubian.
Funny how many a Euronut loves to point out that Maiherpri is Nubian but ignore the fact that he was buried in the Valley of the Kings reserved only for Egyptian royalty.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
If it is a wig, then the argument that he represents a so-called "Nubian" is bogus. Because those claims are based on the hair being natural. Again, there is no distinction physically between these populations in the ancient Nile valley, hair wise or feature wise between so-called "nubia" and the rest of the Nile Valley. They are all within the diversity of ancient Nile Valley/North East African populations. Again, the art of the Nile Valley going back to the old kingdom has always depicted he dynastic people with curly Afro hair with Afro braided hairstyles and wigs. I mean if we go by that standard, then Ahmose Nefertari was "nubian" because she was depicted most often with jet black skin and also has tight braids on her mummy......
Also, note the hair combs used by the Beja in this photo are almost exactly like those found in the predynastic/old kingdom. So I guess that is "Nubian" also.
Djehuti, before you answer Doug realize he is not just making the comment as it appears on face value. He is making the comment from the opinion that "Nubian" is an illegitimate bogus category to begin with, that there are no Egyptian type people and Nubian type people, they are all one and the same, just of different nationalities
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: If it is a wig, then the argument that he represents a so-called "Nubian" is bogus. Because those claims are based on the hair being natural. Again, there is no distinction physically between these populations in the ancient Nile valley, hair wise or feature wise between so-called "nubia" and the rest of the Nile Valley. They are all within the diversity of ancient Nile Valley/North East African populations.
Again, the art of the Nile Valley going back to the old kingdom has always depicted he dynastic people with curly Afro hair with Afro braided hairstyles and wigs. I mean if we go by that standard, then Ahmose Nefertari was "nubian" because she was depicted most often with jet black skin and also has tight braids on her mummy......
Ahmose-Nefertari died in her 70s. Her hair had been thinning and plaits of false hair had been woven in with her own to cover this up.
I thinks it's reasonable to guess that the fake braids were intended to resemble her natural hair type but it's not certain
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Again, there is no distinction physically between these populations in the ancient Nile valley, hair wise or feature wise between so-called "nubia" and the rest of the Nile Valley. They are all within the diversity of ancient Nile Valley/North East African populations. Again, the art of the Nile Valley going back to the old kingdom has always depicted he dynastic people with curly Afro hair with Afro braided hairstyles and wigs.
you seem to be saying there is no diversity of hair type in the art of dynastic Egypt, that it's all curly Afro hair
did she resemble one more than the other in real life? That is unknown, depictions here can only be speculated about
Same tomb, Inherkhau where the jet black depiction of Amhose-Nefertari is
So we see Inherkhau and his wife Wabet Is their "curly Afro hair" ? I don't know you be the judge. Are they wearing wigs? unknown but my guess is no There is a priest here with leopard skin depicted quite light. Why I don't know. I have noticed in the depiction of some scribes and priests the sometimes look a little foreign compared to the royals and noble
To me Inherkhau and his wife are looking like some people you might see in the horn today
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Critique of the “Black Pharaohs” Theme: Racist Perspectives of Egyptian and Kushite/Nubian Interactions in Popular Media Keith W. Crawford Accepted: 28 June 2021
Populations in Egypt and Kush/Nubia with less stereotypical Negro craniofacial features, such as narrower nasal apertures, narrower face, and less lower facial protrusion (alveolar prognathism), were classifed as Caucasians instead of recognizing this array of traits as a variant African phenotype adapted to the Nile valley over many millennia (Keita, 2004). Importantly, some of the traits that were used to distinguish “races,” such as soft tissues (nose, lips), hair texture, and skin pigmentation, cannot be determined from the skeleton. Illustrating these points, Ahmed Batrawi (1935) shows a skull of an X-Group Nubian who has “typical negro hair” but a face “not typically negro” (Fig. 1). How might this skull have been classifed had the hair not been attached? This skull captures the complexity and elasticity of population variation in the Nile valley.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Examples of different hair from Mortons Crania Aegyptiaca. One can wonder how much those mummies hair have changed since they died?
Hair from Kerma Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
I added Mortons's Debod tomb skull to my previous
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Djehuti, before you answer Doug realize he is not just making the comment as it appears on face value. He is making the comment from the opinion that "Nubian" is an illegitimate bogus category to begin with, that there are no Egyptian type people and Nubian type people, they are all one and the same, just of different nationalities
I understand that but he is wrong to assume there are no differences between Nile Valley populations as well.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: If it is a wig, then the argument that he represents a so-called "Nubian" is bogus. Because those claims are based on the hair being natural...
The hair is natural human hair but it is a wig since the mummy's scalp was clean shaven underneath. However, his label as 'Nubian' was not based on the wig alone but also his facial features (pronounced prognathism) as well as the very dark complexion of his painted portrait.
quote:..Again, there is no distinction physically between these populations in the ancient Nile valley, hair wise or feature wise between so-called "nubia" and the rest of the Nile Valley. They are all within the diversity of ancient Nile Valley/North East African populations...
The second sentence above is correct enough but it contradicts the previous sentence. Of course there is distinction between populations in the Nile Valley. This has been been established by cranial morphological studies of the various ancient ethne that lived along the Nile Valley. Some were more closely related than others, hence predynastic A-Group Nubians and Naqada II resembled each other more than they did others. You can't have diversity without difference and indeed there were differences even among Egyptians such as between Mehuwi (Lower Egyptians) and Shemawy (Upper Egyptians).
quote:Again, the art of the Nile Valley going back to the old kingdom has always depicted the dynastic people with curly Afro hair with Afro braided hairstyles and wigs. I mean if we go by that standard, then Ahmose Nefertari was "nubian" because she was depicted most often with jet black skin and also has tight braids on her mummy......
The jet-black skin was symbolic of her divine status as a great goddess incarnate and was not naturalistic. Even if her hair is curly, such hair type which is the common hair type of many Egyptians is not the same ask kinky or coiled hair type.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
'Critique of the “Black Pharaohs” Theme: Racist Perspectives of Egyptian and Kushite/Nubian Interactions in Popular Media' Keith W. Crawford Accepted: 28 June 2021 Populations in Egypt and Kush/Nubia with less stereotypical Negro craniofacial features, such as narrower nasal apertures, narrower face, and less lower facial protrusion (alveolar prognathism), were classified as Caucasians instead of recognizing this array of traits as a variant African phenotype adapted to the Nile valley over many millennia (Keita, 2004). Importantly, some of the traits that were used to distinguish “races,” such as soft tissues (nose, lips), hair texture, and skin pigmentation, cannot be determined from the skeleton. Illustrating these points, Ahmed Batrawi (1935) shows a skull of an X-Group Nubian who has “typical negro hair” but a face “not typically negro” (Fig. 1). How might this skull have been classified had the hair not been attached? This skull captures the complexity and elasticity of population variation in the Nile valley.
Good find, Lioness!
The converse can be said about 17th dynasty king Seqenera Tao.
An X-Ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (1980) James E. Harris & Edward F. Wente His (Seqenenre Tao's) entire lower facial complex, in fact, is so different from other pharaohs that he could be fitted more easily into the series of Nubian and Old Kingdom Giza skulls than into that of later Egyptian kings. Various scholars in the past have proposed a Nubian--that is, non-Egyptian--origin for Seqenenra and his family, and his facial features suggest this might indeed be true. If it is, the history of the family that reputedly drove the Hyksos from Egypt, and the history of the Seventeenth Dynasty, stand in need of considerable re-examination...
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Examples of different hair from Mortons Crania Aegyptiaca. One can wonder how much those mummies hair have changed since they died?...
Well according to Joann Fletcher and other experts the most common type of mummy hair was curly hair--loose curls and occasionally tighter curls-- as well as wavy hair, though coiled hair does occur albeit at seldom.
blackincairo.blogspot.com/2010/06/i-got-my-herr-did-at-egyptian-salon.html Yes, you read that correctly! I let a non-black woman do my hair! For those of you who haven't heard, hair is a big deal to black woman. Because our hair texture is so unique, it's difficult to find non-black people that can properly maintain it. Even shampooing black hair can turn terribly wrong and end up in tangles if you don't know what you're doing! I've been observing the texture of Egyptian women's hair and the technique they use to straighten it. Like black women, the textures range from tightly coiled, coarse curls to loose waves. Most of the women go to the salon weekly to get their hair flat-ironed straight. A few black female expats have recommended that I try the Egyptian salons instead of my futile battle with the creamy-crack (permanent relaxers). Because all the women I've known who regular visit Egyptian salons have natural, non-chemically processed hair, I was hesitant to take their advice. Relaxed hair is more fragile than hair in its natural state.
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: Straightening hair dates back as far as ancient Egypt, where flat iron plates were used to straighten unruly hair. A method which more than not resulted in burns – ouch!
The desirable straight hairstyle was popular throughout many periods in history.
quote:"Egyptian ideals of beauty are still of straightened glossy hair, in a way that’s consistent with our history – Nefertiti achieved straight hair with a constant wig," says Claire (my sister). "But natural Egyptian hair varies hugely," she points out, "the mix of ancestry means our hair can be coarse, tight curls, loose curls, or even fairly naturally straight. Afro hair has its own culture and its own styles, but Egyptian hair doesn’t have its own identity in the same way, so I think going 'natural' in Egyptian culture has less to do with emulating Caucasian ideals and more to do with personal preference."
quote: Eman El-Deeb, a young Egyptian woman, decided to leave her country in 2016. But it wasn't for education, work or a partner. It was because of her hair.
The 26-year-old has big curly hair that is admired in Spain, where she currently lives.
But in Egypt, where many women seek to emulate European ideals of beauty, she felt like her hair was a curse.
"The decision to leave was a very sad one for me. I never imagined I'd migrate," says Eman.
Noran Amr, 32, has been heat-free for a year. Last month she attended a wedding with her hair naturally curly for the first time.
Situated in one of Egypt's most affluent neighbourhoods, The Curly Studio - unlike most Egyptian salons - works on appointment basis only. It receives more than 30 clients a week, mostly young women.
quote:"The trend is very popular, especially among millennials," says the studio's owner, 33-year-old Sara Safwat.
Even Eman felt the change.
"In April 2017, while I was visiting Egypt, a taxi driver told me 'your hair is very nice.' At first I thought he was being sarcastic. But then I realised he was being sincere.
"That was the first positive comment about my hair that I had ever heard in Egypt."
^^^^ This is the magic of ADOS & AFroPUNK at work...
quote:HE SCIENCE OF ANCIENT EGYPTIAN HAIR AND WHY IT SOMETIMES LOOKS, RED, LIGHT-COLOURED AND STRAIGHT
There are many myths about ancient Egyptian hair and most of them have been perpetuated by Hollywood and Zahi Hawass. Many Egyptians did not shave their heads and there are new studies which blow out of the window many myths about these ancients - they clearly suffered from the same problems and desires as those with nappy hair today.
THE EMBALMING PROCESS WAS ADAPTED TO PRESERVE THE HAIRSTYLE
Researchers have found that the Egyptians gelled and dyed their hair, braided it and wore elaborate hair styles including wigs, hair extensions and hair pieces. The embalming process was adapted to preserve the hairstyle.
Natalie McCreesh, an archaeological scientist from the KNH Centre for Biomedical Egyptology at the University of Manchester, UK and her colleagues studied hair samples taken from 18 mummies. The oldest is around 3,500 years old but most were excavated from a cemetery in the Dakhleh Oasis in the Western Desert and date from the Greco-Roman times, around 2,300 years ago.
The researchers believe that this fat-based hair gel was used by the Egyptians to mould and hold the hair in position to enhance appearance, since some of the deceased that had been mummified naturally in the desert also had fats in their hair. When the mummified using embalming chemicals, the undertakers seem to have taken special care to retain the deceased's hairdos, as they used different chemicals on different parts of the body. 'It is evident that different materials were used for different areas of the body,' the researchers write. 'The hair samples from the Dakhleh Oasis were not coated with resin/bitumen-based embalming materials but were coasted with a fat-based substance.'
The mummies had all different kinds of hairstyles depending on the age, sex and presumed social status. Researchers have previously discovered objects in Egyptian tombs that seem to be curling tongs, so they most likely would have been used in conjunction with the hair produces to achieve different styles. There's also speculation that the Egyptians used beeswax on their hair.
Queen Ahmose-Nofretari
Elderly lady from tomb KV35, hair colouring and texture most likely [henna on grey] - styling and age of mummy
Hair straightening is really EFFECTIVE and long lasting in dry desert climates...
Also hair straightening is absolutely pointless in tropical environments..
A couple of examples of "Nubian" hair on human remains and on a statue
"Nubian" skulls with hair
The Archer king, Meroitic bronze statue from c 2nd century BC, found on the site of Tabo, Argo Island, in North Sudan. Today in the National Museum in Khartoum. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ "Nubian" is not an ethnic term but a geographic one. There were many Nubian peoples. The skull on the left is that of a Meroitic Kushite and the skull on the right is "X-Group" which is the later Noubadian people that founded the Ballana Kingdom in the early Medieval Era.
The point of this thread however which is found in the first page is that there were Nubians groups much more ancient who had the SAME loose, curly to wavy hair as the Egyptians such as Neolithic Nubian groups like the A-Group.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ "Nubian" is not an ethnic term but a geographic one. There were many Nubian peoples. The skull on the left is that of a Meroitic Kushite and the skull on the right is "X-Group" which is the later Noubadian people that founded the Ballana Kingdom in the early Medieval Era.
I put Nubian within citation marks just to mark that I meant skulls and a statue from the area commonly referred as to Nubia.
Sometimes it is hard to find good references to pictures. The Meroitic skull I have also seen referred to as being from Kerma on the net. Maybe someone here has the original publication from where the photo comes?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Kushite is the typical ethnonym (Egyptian Keshli) for the dominant Nubian group in Upper Nubia. The culture had 3 periods-- Kerman, Napatan, and Meroitic-- named after the capital cities of each period so there can be some confusion hence Meroitic skull from Kerma. There is some debate as to what ethnic changes or modifications there were to the Kushites especially since Kush before Egyptian domination of the New Kingdom was in fact an empire that had hegemony over various Nubian peoples as well as others in not only the Nile Valley but adjacent regions.
Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
Figure 14 in this report has a photo of the skull with hair on it, FWIW.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
^^ Thank you. Seems it came from Kerma.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
The Gebelein Man "Ginger" was a member of Naqada II Culture which metrically are closest to A-Group Nubians who also had the same type of hair.
"Ginger" is an interesting case since apparently the guy died a violent death at age range 18-22. So apparently some conflict was going on at that time.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I understand that but he is wrong to assume there are no differences between Nile Valley populations as well.
The point was that having a tightly curled wig was not a distinction between "Nubians" and other Nile Valley Africans. There are plenty of mummies with tightly curled wigs or depictions of populations with Afro hair. So we cannot sit here and say that this is a marker of so-called "Nubian" ancestry. It isn't.
That is why I posted the image of the mummy of Ahmose-Nefertari who is almost always depicted as Jet black. So going by that logic, then she too is a so-called "Nubian".. Somehow folks keep skipping over that part.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: If it is a wig, then the argument that he represents a so-called "Nubian" is bogus. Because those claims are based on the hair being natural...
The hair is natural human hair but it is a wig since the mummy's scalp was clean shaven underneath. However, his label as 'Nubian' was not based on the wig alone but also his facial features (pronounced prognathism) as well as the very dark complexion of his painted portrait.
The point is that nothing about using human hair to make wigs in dynastic burials is "Nubian". That is what I mean by bogus. Plenty of other mummies have similar wigs. Again, Ahmose Nefertari is a notable example. So the context of my statement is using those things to call Maiherpri "Nubian" are totally arbitrary and inconsistent. Again, being consistent would mean Ahmose-Nefertari was also "Nubian".
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:..Again, there is no distinction physically between these populations in the ancient Nile valley, hair wise or feature wise between so-called "nubia" and the rest of the Nile Valley. They are all within the diversity of ancient Nile Valley/North East African populations...
The second sentence above is correct enough but it contradicts the previous sentence. Of course there is distinction between populations in the Nile Valley. This has been been established by cranial morphological studies of the various ancient ethne that lived along the Nile Valley. Some were more closely related than others, hence predynastic A-Group Nubians and Naqada II resembled each other more than they did others. You can't have diversity without difference and indeed there were differences even among Egyptians such as between Mehuwi (Lower Egyptians) and Shemawy (Upper Egyptians).
I meant the distinction of only "Nubians" having black skin, curly hair or prognathism. Those kind of distinctions do not exist in the Nile Valley as a marker of "Nubian" ancestry. Somehow now you are forgetting the Atlas of Royal Mummies by Wente and Harris where so many of those mummies also have prognathism. And then there is the lineage of Seqenenre Tao who is also mentioned in the same atlas:
quote: In 1980, James Harris and Edward F. Wente conducted another series of X-ray examinations on New Kingdom Pharaoh's crania and skeletal remains, which included the mummified remains of Sequenre Tao. The analysis in general found strong similarities between the New Kingdom rulers of the Seventeenth Dynasty and Eighteenth Dynasty and contemporary Nubians with slight differences.[13]
So by that logic, the early 18th dynasty along with Ahmose Nefertari were Nubians then.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Again, the art of the Nile Valley going back to the old kingdom has always depicted the dynastic people with curly Afro hair with Afro braided hairstyles and wigs. I mean if we go by that standard, then Ahmose Nefertari was "nubian" because she was depicted most often with jet black skin and also has tight braids on her mummy......
The jet-black skin was symbolic of her divine status as a great goddess incarnate and was not naturalistic. Even if her hair is curly, such hair type which is the common hair type of many Egyptians is not the same ask kinky or coiled hair type.
Again, that is an arbitrary distinction because not all Sudanese or East Africans or Horn Africans have tight kinky hair either. But the bigger point here is the jet black depictions of Nefertari exclude any identity as so-called "Nubian" despite the fact that this dynasty originated in the South with Southern allies (so-called "Nubians"). But somehow in this context, being depicted as jet black and having a jet black mummy with prognathism and African braided wig doesn't mean "Nubian". And there is nothing that labels Maiherpri as "Nubian" when we have the entire early 18th dynasty being shown as having the closest affinity to so-called "Nubians" yet somehow you don't want to label them as such. It is an arbitrary distinction based on lookership not science. Just like it is absurd to argue that black skin being divine is separate from black skin and the southern origins of dynastic culture and renewal to begin with...... How absurd.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ The distinction is not "arbitrary" at all but based on actual population distinctions. The peoples of the Nile Valley are NOT one homogeneous group. Even Egyptians are not a single people with Mehuwi of the Delta and Shemawi of the Valley. The former tend to have longer straighter hair while the latter have shorter curlier hair. And yes Kushites tend to have tighter coiled hair compared to Shemawy so there is nothing arbitrary about it.
The same can even be said for skin color. The Egyptians, especially Shemawy depicted themselves with chocolate brown skins while they depicted the Keshli (Kushites) with ebony dark skin. I've already cited the example of Maiherpri above whose very dark skin tone is different from most Egyptians. You seem to have a problem with the idea of ethnic differences. Yes even in the Horn of Africa there are phenotypic difference based on ethnicity. People in Eritrea and northern Ethiopia tend to have tighter coiled hair than southern Ethiopians and Somalis. In fact many Cushitic speakers like Oromo and Somali have phrase (jareer) meaning "hard-haired" for those Africans with coiled hair as opposed to their own "soft haired".
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
A somewhat sensitive question is whether pubic hair has been found on any Egyptian mummies? Maybe that hair was never dyed but could show the natural hair coloration of the individual? I ask because in at least one Danish bronze age burial they found such hair (which had the same color as the hair on the person's head).
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ The distinction is not "arbitrary" at all but based on actual population distinctions. The peoples of the Nile Valley are NOT one homogeneous group. Even Egyptians are not a single people with Mehuwi of the Delta and Shemawi of the Valley. The former tend to have longer straighter hair while the latter have shorter curlier hair. And yes Kushites tend to have tighter coiled hair compared to Shemawy so there is nothing arbitrary about it.
It is arbitrary when the same "rules" that are used to label someone as "Nubian" in one case are not applied consistently to others with the same kinds of features. And I have pointed this out specifically referring to the fact that the entire dynastic culture originated in the South to begin with. Not to mention the documented history of the Middle and New Kingdom originating in the SOuth with southern allies and auxilliaries. Meaning there has always been population flow from the South into the dynastic kingdom and the diversity of the dynastic era is not unique or separate from other parts of the Nile. ALL of the Nile Valley has always been diverse as you yourself have pointed out in this very thread. Yet here you are claiming certain features as so called exclusively "Nubian". Which is why I am saying this is an arbitrary way of defining "Nubian".
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: The same can even be said for skin color. The Egyptians, especially Shemawy depicted themselves with chocolate brown skins while they depicted the Keshli (Kushites) with ebony dark skin. I've already cited the example of Maiherpri above whose very dark skin tone is different from most Egyptians. You seem to have a problem with the idea of ethnic differences. Yes even in the Horn of Africa there are phenotypic difference based on ethnicity. People in Eritrea and northern Ethiopia tend to have tighter coiled hair than southern Ethiopians and Somalis. In fact many Cushitic speakers like Oromo and Somali have phrase (jareer) meaning "hard-haired" for those Africans with coiled hair as opposed to their own "soft haired".
And all of that variation is not unique to the dynastic kingdom and you can see it all over North East Africa is my point. I am not sure why you are sitting here and trying to act like you don't understand the point. MOST mummies from the Nile Valley are literally coal black in color. And there are plenty of depictions of very dark brown people in the dynastic kingdom and not just Ahmose Nefertari. Like I said, this idea that Maiherpri is "Nubian" simply because of dark paint and kinky hair when many populations from the dynastic era are depicted with such features but arent also called "Nubian" makes it arbitrary. Because again, Ahmose Nefertari has more evidence to support her so-called "Nubian" ancestry than Maiherpri does, including being depicted as jet black, but somehow those same rules don't apply.
quote: Queen Ahmose-Nefertari was arguably the most adored woman in Egyptian history.
Nearly 50 private tombs in the West Bank necropolis at Luxor carry images of the queen; the first date from her lifetime, and they continue through to the end of the Ramesside Period, some 500 years later!
It is supposed that Ahmose-Nefertari and her son, King Amenhotep I, founded Deir el-Medina—Egypt's most elite address—on the west bank of the Nile at Luxor. Living in this village was by invitation only, for this settlement was purpose built to house the royal tomb builders and their families.
Deir el-Medina was a gated community, complete with guards who were probably tasked with keeping the workers in, as much as keeping trouble out. These men, after all, knew the king's most precious secret: the location of his "House of Eternity" in the Valley of the Kings.
This wooden statuette of Ahmose-Nefertari came from Deir el-Medina and was possibly a votive offering, used in asking for the queen's divine favour. Today it is usually housed in the collection of the Museo Egizio, in Turin.
Right now, Ahmose-Nefertari's little statue is also part of an exhibition at the Rijksmuseum in Leiden; "Queens of Nile", looks at some of the most celebrated queens of the New Kingdom.
quote:Archaeological studies always seek for understanding history and draw right pictures about the life in the past in the different civilizations. Consequently, varieties of sciences are applied in these studies to extract the historical information. Hence this study investigated hair samples that were taken from four royal mummies with the aim of obtaining reliable information about the materials used in embalming, health status of these mummies, their age, and hair color that affects its composition. A variety of analytical techniques were applied in this study; digital microscope, polarizing optical microscope, environmental scanning electron microscope coupled with energy-dispersive X-ray unit, Fourier transform infrared spectroscopy, gas chromatography, and Raman spectroscopy analysis. The results showed the significance of hair in biomonitoring health status and determining age. Besides, it was proved that mastic resin has been used in embalming as early as the Second Intermediate Period especially for royal mummies.
^ I already cited that paper in the previous page when I brought up Seqenenre's skull and hair.
Also, I already addressed the ridiculous arbitrary use of 'Egyptian' vs. 'Nubian'. I'm talking about about real ethnic differences between Nile Valley populations. Nubian or Nehesy, as the Egyptians called them, is a generic geographic term. There were many different groups of Nehesy. Similarly even Kemet (Egypt) is a political construct largely comprising of Mehuwi (Lower Egyptians) and Shemawi (Upper Egyptians) with phenotypic stereotypes between the two-- Mehuwi are lighter complexioned with longer straighter hair while Shemawi are darker skinned with shorter, curlier hair.
Egyptian woman at Tahrir Square during so-called 'Arab Spring'.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I already cited that paper in the previous page when I brought up Seqenenre's skull and hair.
Also, I already addressed the ridiculous arbitrary use of 'Egyptian' vs. 'Nubian'. I'm talking about about real ethnic differences between Nile Valley populations. Nubian or Nehesy, as the Egyptians called them, is a generic geographic term. There were many different groups of Nehesy. Similarly even Kemet (Egypt) is a political construct largely comprising of Mehuwi (Lower Egyptians) and Shemawi (Upper Egyptians) with phenotypic stereotypes between the two-- Mehuwi are lighter complexioned with longer straighter hair while Shemawi are darker skinned with shorter, curlier hair.
No, you are being arbitrary like I said. Again, the culture, cosmology and people of the dynastic Nile Valley came from the South, which means being a citizen of KMT is a nationalist identity not an ethnic identity. And there is no proof of Maiherpri being a so-called "Nubian". The entire middle Kingdom is full of documented people of so-called "Nubian" ancestry, including various pharoahs and officials named Nehesy, tombs featuring coal black archers from Kush, the prophecy of Neferti, wives of Mentuhotep who have so-called "Nubian" features, etc. Not to mention the rise of the New Kingdom also being from the South and southern Allies who also helped renew the country, with another female queen who is depicted with so-called "nubian" features, symbolizing origin and renewal of the Nile from the south, as a flow of culture, gods and most importantly people. So to sit up here and argue that Maiherpri is a so-called "Nubian" while downplaying the exact same characteristics for these other people is what I am calling "arbitrary". Because there is more evidence for Ahmose Nefertari having southern origins than Maiherpri but somehow you refuse to apply the same label of "nubian" to her. And because that southern flow of populations was there from the start, those features are simply a part of the diversity that was common in the dynastic era. Therefore to argue this was some kind of special, rare or unique case is simply arbitrary and hypocritical. Especially, when nothing about Maiherpri is labeled as so-called "Nubian" and he is considered a high ranking member of the dynastic kingdom, not some "foreign" so-called "nubian". I am just saying be consistent instead of using this arbitrary distinction which didn't exist in ancient times. It is the same issue of Egyptology trying to parse out how the legend of Horus Behdet talks of he culture starting in the South in "Ta-Seti" in order to avoid the obvious implication and association with so-called "Nubia". If Maiherpri could be a high status official of so-called "Nubian" ancestry, then so could Ahmose Nefertari, various rulers named Nehesy, Amenhemet of the prophecy of Neferti and many others..... And this isn't simply about features as you have already shown in this very thread that all so-called "Nubians" weren't jet black with super kinky hair. Yet here you are arguing for this as some how a unique marker of so-called "Nubian" identity. Even going so far to show an image of a person with an Afro as being from the Upper Nile, which contradicts the point that these features were so-called "Nubian". So like I said, you are being arbitrary and inconsistent following Egyptology's arbitrary and inconsistent definition of "Nubia".
Ashayet, Queen of Mentuhotep:
quote: Ashayet's stone sarcophagus (JE 47267) contained a wooden coffin (JE 47355) and a wooden statue was also located in the tomb; they are now found in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo.[1][6][7] Her stone sarcophagus is particularly well known for the exterior relief and painted interior. The painted interior was copied as tempera on paper facsimiles by Charles K. Wilkinson in Gurna in 1926.[2] The facsimiles are now found in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, but were never published.[2] In the interior decoration of two Medjay women, Federtyt and Mekhenet, are depicted and named as part of Ashayet's household. It has been posited that Ashayet herself was a Nubian elite woman living as queen in Egypt.[2]
Again, labeled as so-called "Nubian" with no literal evidence other than how they are depicted.
Same thing with other so-called "Nubian" wives of Mentuhotep:
quote: The queen was also depicted on reliefs in the funerary temple of her husband Mentuhotep II. These depictions are today heavily destroyed, but it seems that she appeared in a scene showing a row of royal women. On the preserved fragments she is shown behind queen Kawit. Her title in the depiction is King's Beloved Wife.[3] Shrine of Kemsit at the Mortuary Temple of Mentuhotep II in Deir el-Bahari.
Kemsit may have been of Nubian origin, as indicated by depictions that show her face as black or dark pink.[4]
So if that is the case why is Ahmose-Nefertari not also considered as so-called "Nubian" then? Obviously this is a contradiction and arbitrary and inconsistent rules of lookership.
quote: Seqenenre Tao, also known as Seqenera Djehuty-aa, Sekenenra Taa, or Sequenenre Tao II (after his father), ruled over the last of the local Theban kingdom in the 17th Dynasty of the 2nd Intermediate Period. Seqenenre means “Who Strikes like Re,” and Tao means “brave,” which may have been a name given to him based on his bravery in life.
He was probably the son and successor of Senakhenre Ahmose and Queen Tetisheri. He would have risen to power either in 1560 to 1558 B.C.E. He had multiple wives including Ahmose Inhapy, Sitdjentui, and Ahhotep I. Through Ahmose Inhapy, he had a daughter Ahmose Henuttamehu, and through Sitdjehuti, he had another daughter named Ahmose. But it was Ahhotep I who bore the next two kings of Egypt, Seqenenre Tao’s sons Kamose and Ahmose I. She also gave birth to Ahmose Nefertari, Ahmose Meritamon, Ahmose Nebetta, Ahmose Tumerisy, Binpu, Ahmose Sapair, and Ahmose Henutemipet, many of whom were married to one of their brothers.
His rule was anywhere from 5 to 3 years, so this left almost no time for monumental building. He did build a new mudbrick palace at Deir el-Ballas. When this site was excavated, a large amount of Kerma-ware pottery was found. Kerman Nubians either traded heavily with the Egyptians or were residents in the palace. This also may indicate that they were allied with the Egyptians in the upcoming battles.
quote: The contexts of the Kerma ceramics at Tell el-Dab’a and Deir el-Ballas, along with the more isolated examples in Egyptian cemeteries, indicate that these specific vessels were of special interest to Egyptian audiences. This raises the question of why these ceramic forms were being selected and consumed? I would suggest the most likely explanation stems from the important functions and roles of both wares in Kerman commensality practices. 34 The direct association of these ceramics forms with foodways has been noted before, largely in relation to using the pottery as potential evidence for the presence of settled Kerman populations in Egypt. 35 The reason for this is largely based on ethnographic analogy on how foodways are resistant ethnic and cultural markers. 36 However, as noted by Bourriau, there is no real indication in many of these settlements and graves of Kerman identities being expressed. 37 Notably absent are the contracted Kerman burial positions, placement of the body on beds, any sacrificed animals or people, and the presence of any other Kerman material culture. While some of the graves do seem to exhibit some of these Kerman features, such as burial 694 at Abydos, these are exceptional examples. 38 There is also evidence that these ceramic forms may have been locally made in Egypt. Fuscaldo has pointed out that one of the Nubian ceramics at Tell el-Dab’a appears to be actually Egyptian imitations of Nubian cooking wares.39 Aston and Bietak have also highlighted how some of the Tell el-Dab’a ceramics are locally made.40 This indicates Egyptian attempts to replicate Kerman or Nubian ceramics.
It is very unlikely that the contexts of these Kerman ceramics can solely be interpreted as instances of settled Kerman populations. Much of this ceramic material has been interpreted through traditional culture historical models and stereotypes of Nubian/Egyptian relations, particularly through the stereotype of Nubian "mercenaries" and "servants."41 However, these interpretations limit the diversity of interactions that this material may document, and largely interpret them as ethnic markers. In addition, the archaeological contexts from the burials are not conducive to interpreting all of the burials with Kerma ceramics as ethnic markers. They certainly might indicate blurred cultural identities, but there is a lack of further material and funerary practices that would suggest any strong Kerman cultural identity being expressed. The domestic contexts of the cooking and beaker vessels at Tell el-Dab’a and Deir el-Ballas are clearer indicators of direct interactions between Egyptians and Kermans at these sites, as these have been either found in domestic and discard contexts, indicating a clear use of the vessels. However, the question of who is using these vessels is still unclear. At the least the material suggests a mixed usage by both Kermans and Egyptians. Given these contexts I think it is appropriate and logical to expand our interpretation of this material beyond solely ethnic markers of migrants.
^ Doug, you are again fabricating an argument I never made to argue against. Yes Kmt IS a national construct which I have just proven in my post above. Kmt is a national construct while Nhsy (Nubian) is a geographic one. Neither are ethnic but ethnic differences did indeed exist. Which Middle Kingdom rulers were Nubian? The dynasties of the Middle Kingdom came from 1st nome of Ta-Seti which is NOT Nubian but Egyptian. The wives of Mentuhotep were indeed Nubian as Yatunde has shown in her thread here which Dr. Solange Ashby shows that Mentuhotep's wives like Ashayet were Wawati (C-Group) Nubians. As for Maiherpri, note I never said he was Nubian for certain only that it was probable if not likely because portraits hint at it. If you're not aware after the 18th dynasty conquest of Kush, some members of the Kushite royal houses were adopted in the pharaonic house. So yes that would explain why Nubians can be buried in the Valley of the Kings. Ahmose Nefertari and her family are from Upper Egypt NOT Nubia, that they may have Nubian relations is only a conjecture again based solely on certain phenotypic traits.
Doug, again you have failed to prove that ethnic distinctions are simply arbitrary and not based on stereotypes based on such distinctions. The Nile Valley peoples are heterogeneous so distinctions can be made. It's like saying there were no differences between Mesopotamians even though they too were diverse or say differences between ancient Balkans like the Greeks vs. their northern neighbors. Get over it.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
All of the painted depictions of Ahmose-Neferari I've seen are of her appearing with Ahmose as deities in the tombs of nobles
In real life she may have not been either this light color or jet black color but we don't know
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Virtually all of Ahmose-Nefertari's portraits in jet black color are post-humous and symbolic of her status as a great goddess (ntjrt wrt). I'm still trying to find out why or how she gained this status but it may very well be connected to her being the first 'God's Wife of Amun'.
While she was alive, Ahmose-Nefertari was portrayed no different from other Egyptian women either in symbolic yellow tone or in more naturalistic dark brown tone that's likely the same as her husband Ahmose I who was her own full sibling.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^ what you have above are two posthumous deified votive statuettes of Ahmose Nefertari from Deir el-Medina, 19th-20th dynasty. The top one has paint on the face is very bad condition apparently brown. The darker patches seem to be the raw wood of which the paint has chipped off. The lower one's face is entirely raw wood so we cannot determine if there was any intention that that raw wood is supposed to be analogous to her skin tone. The lower one has some remnant paint on the headdress so ether might have been paint on the face at some point. The one Doug posted at the top of the page is another one of these Deir el-Medina votives and the face is painted black. Here it is again
In the Theban region – and especially in the village of Deir el-Medina – Ahmose-Nefertari is mentioned or depicted in at least 50 private tombs and on a large number of objects which are datable from the reign of Thutmose III to the end of the 20th Dynasty.[10][22]: 201–2
In the tomb of Tetyky (TT15), the queen is depicted wearing a brow ornament with two uraei instead of a double gazelle.[23][24]: 11 According to Eaton-Krauss, this is the "earliest occurrence of the double uraeus, which is a standard part of queenly regalia thereafter."[25]
Michel Gitton acknowledges Norman de Garis Davis' estimate that Ahmose-Nefertari is depicted with dark complexion (black) four times more often than light complexions (red and yellow).[24]: 74–5 He indicates that his own survey suggests a much lower figure although he could not provide a general figure as he could not himself verify the colors on site. He also noted there are other cases in which she is shown with a pink, golden, dark blue, or dark red skin color.[24]: 74–5 As observed by Gardiner, in some instances Ahmose-Nefertari's skin is blue,[26] a popular color symbolizing fertility, birth, rebirth and life and usually used to depict water and the heavens.[27]
In 1981 Gitton called the issue of Ahmose-Nefertari's black color "a serious gap in the Egyptological research, which allows approximations or untruths".[24]: 2 He pointed out that there is no known depiction of her painted during her lifetime (she is represented with the same light skin as other represented individuals in tomb TT15, before her deification); the earliest black skin depiction appears in tomb TT161, circa 150 years after her death.[24]: 11–12, 23, 74–5 [1]: 125 Barbara Lesko wrote in 1996 that Ahmose-Nefertari was "sometimes portrayed by later generations as having been black, although her coffin portrait gives her the typical light yellow skin of women."[28]
Highlighting Ahmose-Nefertari and her son's deification as patrons of Deir el-Medina as well her worship as 'Mistress of the Sky', 'Lady of the West' and goddess of resurrection, Joyce Tyldesley indicates in 2006 that frequently in this setting she was depicted with black skin which symbolizes "fertility and rebirth rather than decay".[8]: 90 Sigrid Hodel-Hoenes states in 2000 that her black skin color can be attributed to her role as deified patron of Deir el-Medina, the color black being a reflection of "fertile earth and of the Netherworld and death"[29]: 268 In 2011, Graciela Gestoso Singer states that her black or blue skin color is "a reference to her position as the mother of Egypt" and indicative of her role as a goddess of resurrection, since black is the color of death, the underworld, rebirth and fertility, as well as the fertile land of Egypt.[5] In 2003, Betsy Bryan wrote in The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt that "the factors linking Amenhotep I and his mother with the necropolis region, with deified rulers, and with rejuvenation generally was visually transmitted by representations of the pair with black or blue skin – both colours of resurrection."[30] In 2004 Aidan Dodson and Dyan Hilton recognized in a later depiction of the queen, "the black skin of a deity of resurrection" in connection to her role as a patron goddess of the Theban necropolis.[1]: 125 In 2009 Eleni Vassilika, noting that in a wooden statuette of the queen (now at the Museo Egizio) the face is painted black but the arms and feet are light in color, argued that the reason for the black coloring in that case was religious and not genetic.[31]: 78–9 In 2014, Margaret Bunson wrote that "the unusual depictions of Ahmose-Nefertari in blue-black tones of deification reflect her status and cult."[32] In a wooden votive statue of Ahmose-Nefertari, currently in the Louvre museum, her skin was painted red,[33] a color commonly seen symbolizing life or a higher being, or elevated status.[27]
Early 20th century archaeologists made observations on Ahmose-Nefertari's likely phenotype and genealogy, and also on the probable symbolic meaning of her most frequent representation in black or purplish black skin tones.[b] In 1974, Cheikh Anta Diop described her as "typically negroid."[41]: 17 In the controversial book Black Athena, Martin Bernal intimated that members of the royal family to which Ahmose-Nefertari belonged may have originated from Nubia, and, according to him, 18th dynasty pharaohs could generally be referred to as black.[c] Bernal's work has been embraced by Afrocentrists, but rejected by mainstream Egyptologists.
they have a lot of references at the link. I am of the opinion that a lot of these color issues in the art, what they are intended to be of mean can't be determined definitively yet
The deified Ahmose Nefertari enthroned beside her son, Amenhotep I Stela of Sennefer, 19th Dynasty, c. 1292–1190 B.C. Deir el-Medina Museo Egizio. Cat. 1455
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Doug, you are again fabricating an argument I never made to argue against. Yes Kmt IS a national construct which I have just proven in my post above.
The point was that the origin of the national identify of KMT, the black country originates in the South among other black populations on the NIle. This idea that somehow they saw themselves separate from that blackness when the color black was a core part of their cosmology and national identity is absurd.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Kmt is a national construct while Nhsy (Nubian) is a geographic one. Neither are ethnic but ethnic differences did indeed exist. Which Middle Kingdom rulers were Nubian? The dynasties of the Middle Kingdom came from 1st nome of Ta-Seti which is NOT Nubian but Egyptian. The wives of Mentuhotep were indeed Nubian as Yatunde has shown in her thread here which Dr. Solange Ashby shows that Mentuhotep's wives like Ashayet were Wawati (C-Group) Nubians.
And all she is doing is also going by lookership, what evidence is there other than that? Not to mention why would they be at war with so-called "Nubia" and at the same time marrying them and making them great wives of the pharaoh? Because there was never a monolithic entity called "Nubia" in the ancient dynastic era as opposed to various different kingdoms to the South, some of whom were allies and some weren't. But lets go with them being so-called "Nubians", then again, this shows that so-called "Nubian" marriages and bloodlines were common in the NIle and acting like somehow this was a rare and unique occurrence is absurd. The evidence completely contradicts that narrative, yet people keep trying to prop it up on flimsy logic to support this concept of "nubiology" which is simply more misconceptions based on Eurocentric concepts. Again, the origins of the dynastic culture is in the south and during numerous times of crisis throughout dynastic history, they turned to the South for allies. Therefore, from the very beginning there have always been those of so-called "Nubian" ancestry who were part of the nation of KMT and in fact, those southern origins and the blackness associated with it are cornerstones of the cosmology of KMT and its national identity that you somehow keep missing.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: As for Maiherpri, note I never said he was Nubian for certain only that it was probable if not likely because portraits hint at it. If you're not aware after the 18th dynasty conquest of Kush, some members of the Kushite royal houses were adopted in the pharaonic house. So yes that would explain why Nubians can be buried in the Valley of the Kings. Ahmose Nefertari and her family are from Upper Egypt NOT Nubia, that they may have Nubian relations is only a conjecture again based solely on certain phenotypic traits.
Again what I said was you have no proof that Maiherpri was so-called "Nubian" when there is more proof and evidence of so-called "Nubian" ancestry for Ahmose Nefertari, which includes her being depicted as jet black. And you have absolutely not addressed any of that, going to my point that the "rules" you are using to identify so-called "Nubians" are simply based on lookership and nothing else. I gave you the evidence of substantial relationships between the late 17th dynasty and Kermans further South, and you completely ignored that. Again, the point being the use of the label is purely arbitrary and inconsistent because the underlying mentality behind it originates from a Eurocentric perspective.
The reason Ahmose Nefertari is jet black is symbolic of the South, including the flow of the Nile from the South and the flow of people and culture from the South. You keep throwing out the fact that it is a symbol but not what it is actually symbolic of: southern origins, aka so-called "Nubian" origins. Which is why all this flip flopping around about when certain 'rules' identify someone as so-called "Nubian" are arbitrary and inconsistent. That was the point.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Doug, again you have failed to prove that ethnic distinctions are simply arbitrary and not based on stereotypes based on such distinctions. The Nile Valley peoples are heterogeneous so distinctions can be made. It's like saying there were no differences between Mesopotamians even though they too were diverse or say differences between ancient Balkans like the Greeks vs. their northern neighbors. Get over it.
No you are confused. I wasn't trying to prove anything other than Maiherpri was a national of KMT and buried with high status as such and not distinguished as anything other than that. Your argument that somehow his burial reflects some kind of so-caled "Nubian" heritage is false, because he wasn't buried by so-called "Nubians". He was buried in KMT as a noble of the "black nation". Somehow you are determined to pretend that this is not the obvious point. So there was no distinction in that sense and you are the one making the distinction where the burial itself and none of the evidence around it supports it was my point. It is all based on a lookership argument that if someone is depicted as jet black in the ancient Nile they must be so-called "Nubian" when again, the color black is one of the highest and most powerful symbols of the identity of KMT and there are plenty of royals and high officials depicted as such. So if you are going to be consistent then apply those same "rules" to these other people. But you refuse to admit that this the problem here.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
As usual Doug, your point is null yet you make it out to be mountain worth standing on. Yes, Egyptian civilization originated in the 'south' as in Ta-Shemau, among 'black' people but how does that change the fact that black people are diverse? Again Egyptians noted differences between Mehuwi and Shemawi as well as between them and Keshli (Kushites). Ethnic difference exists even amongst black people. This is like saying Greek culture originated in the north among whites but ignore the fact that Greeks were different from Macedonians, Thracians, and others.
Again, I never said Maiherpri was Nubian only that it was a possibility since the 18th dynasty adopted Kushite royals into their family. As for Ahmose Nefertari there is NO evidence whatsoever for having Nehesy ancestry, and we have told you numerous times that her jet-black image is SYMBOLIC of her divine status like Iset (Isis) as Kmt-wrt (Great Black). Her original skin tone was the same as her husband who was her brother. You are obviously confused.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Nubian or Nehesy, as the Egyptians called them, is a generic geographic term....
Yes, Egyptian civilization originated in the 'south' as in Ta-Shemau, among 'black' people but how does that change the fact that black people are diverse?
Again, I never said Maiherpri was Nubian only that it was a possibility
Doug would argue (and he can correct my if I am wrong) there should be no possibility that anybody might be a called a "Nubian" because the word "Nubian" is a racist foreign word that came into use in Roman times and that it's historical use by Egyptologists and Historians is as code word for "black" not only a place location.
and with it's phenotypic implications it's used to imply that the Egyptians weren't black because they were right up the street yet "not of the Nubian type"
and if someone calls it out as a race word the meaning can be switched "no it's just location". but when the heats off, back to he or she looks more Nubian than him or her. The full implication hides in the location when convenient
Doug would argue (and he can correct me if I am wrong) there the diversity of Nile Valley black people was evenly spread in in the locations the mainstream called Egypt and Nubia that is his main point (I think)
but the word "Nubia" is used to imply that people there were racially different from the Egyptians and that the Egyptians must be less black or a racially intermediate people of some sort, with some black-ish individuals here or there but not true blacks Egyptologists have these assumptions and when they scrutinize a particular Egyptian's ancestry as maybe having been foreign they do so having been inspired with bias of thinking that jet black skin is a hint that they are from the south, outside of Egypt, where the blacks are, then they must look for evidence to try to confirm their appearance based hunch
Yet at the same time, in the Book of Gates the Egyptians themselves depict 4 groups of humankind passing into the after world and they depict themselves as brown in color and the Nhsy as black
And in the actual scene each group is a line of four of them for a total of 16
and within each group all four of one type are depicted virtually the same, no variation of color
So is this grouping of people, this Egyptian concept that different from color distinctions that are implied with the term "Nubian" ?
the Egyptians themselves showing ethnic groups and with four of each one not showing any color variation in the depiction even if they do show color variation of Kushites elsewhere although still depicted jet black a lot more than Egyptians
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ We don't know the exact meaning of Nhsy, but we do know it was a generic label not a specific one because it was used as compound after specific ethne e.g. Wawati-Nehesy, Medja-Nehesy, Keshli-Nehesy, etc.
Hence Nehesy was the rough equivalent of 'Nubian' since it was apparently applied to to the different peoples of the region Nubia. Egyptians were not Nehesy though some Egyptians, specifically the Shemawy were closer related to certain Nehesy more than others.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
I have seen a few but not many Nehesy depicted in Egyptian art prior to the 18th dynasty but many in the 18th and later.
In the Book of Gates scenes in various tombs we with see this grouping of 4 types with different skin color. The Kushites are all jet black, no variation even though their are four of them in the scene In other art of the period you see many jet black and Kushites and some but less reddish brown and Egyptians depicted jet black much less, usually only individuals or Osiris and a deified Ahmose-Neferatri, some Mentuhotep pieces but not others Thus someone might not be correct that Maiherpri is Nehesey but it would be reasonable to guess he was since there are so many jet black Kushites and other Southern groups (Nehesy) depicted in the art
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
This is not accurate at all, first off Ta-Seti was originally an independent NHSY state that was conquered and INCORPORATED into Kmt. The elite of Ta-seti were still NHSY and sometimes depicted or presented themselves as such. I have presented countless examples, in my Uha-ka thread, that span countless generations of NHSY elite dominating this area from the early dynasties to the Ptolemaic era. This is a verified fact backed by primary evidence that no Egyptologist can deny. It’s not afrocentism.
A more accurate statement would be Ta seti was a NHSY-Kemetian populated nome under the control of the unified Kmt state. It was a transitional area where both identities blended. Saying it was Egyptian not NHSY denies the history of these people and distorts the complex relationship of this area.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Kmt is a national construct while Nhsy (Nubian) is a geographic one. Neither are ethnic but ethnic differences did indeed exist. Which Middle Kingdom rulers were Nubian? The dynasties of the Middle Kingdom came from 1st nome of Ta-Seti which is NOT Nubian but Egyptian.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Yes we already know Ta-Seti was a separate state and ethnos from Kmt. I do question whether it was ever formally called Nhsy, if you have textual evidence of such. I'm not doubting your claim but that Ta-Seti's incorporation happened very early in the Archaic Period of Kmtwy.
Mind you there were A-Group (Setiu) already residing in the 1st nome of Shemaw who were assimilated much earlier into Naqada Culture before Kmt's expansion into Qustul.
Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
One does wonder what definitions underlay these Kemetic generic labels that get translated to "Nubian", "Libyan", or "Asiatic". In the case of Nehesi, maybe it started as a term for A-Group Nubians (aka Ta Seti) that the Egyptians later applied to other groups to their south? Nehesi doesn't etymologically mean "southerner", but the common denominator among the Nehesi groups is that they lay south of Egypt.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ The root word in Nhsy is nhs which is represented by the horned guinea fowl glyph . It obviously does not mean "negro" as James Breasted would have us believe! LOL
But just to show that such bird labels are not unique to Nubians. The rekhyt (lapwing bird) was applied as Rekhyti to Delta folk by Shemawy as well so go figure.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
I don't know if there is primary evidence of it being called NHSY because as you said it was incorporated early into the Unified state of the Two Lands Km.t...that said the people of Ta Seti were so called "A Group" people who had distinctive customs and burial practices as well as naming customs. Do you consider A group customs NHSY? Do you consider Speo aka Rock Hewn Temples NHSY?(BTW Ramses II, who held the title associated with the Ta Seti Elite aka "Great of Medjai" created the greatest Speo (Rock Hewn) Temple ABU SIMBEL, in TA SETI territory to Impress the NHSY(Not to intimidated them like some people claim) Do you Consider Gods who were Worshipped Originally AT Elephantine, Aswan and Luxor NHSY?
This is exactly what the Elite of Ta Seti reflected and represented sometimes Openly even with a Northen Suten ruling, they ruled almost with impunity.
Do you consider these people Egyptian then? At the end of the day it seems to be a complicated issue.
I provide countless examples of the power the Elite of Ta Seti controlled
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yes we already know Ta-Seti was a separate state and ethnos from Kmt. I do question whether it was ever formally called Nhsy, if you have textual evidence of such. I'm not doubting your claim but that Ta-Seti's incorporation happened very early in the Archaic Period of Kmtwy.
Mind you there were A-Group (Setiu) already residing in the 1st nome of Shemaw who were assimilated much earlier into Naqada Culture before Kmt's expansion into Qustul.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Ta-Seti as a polity disappeared once Egypt conquered them. The region that it occupied-- Lower Nubia-- became or rather reverted back to Wawat which was politically divided between the presumed remnant Setiu people who were not captured and assimilated into Kmt. The Wawati were in turn annexed into the empire of the Kushites from further south in Upper Nubia. And yes I agree Ramesses the Great's monuments were not made to intimidate so much as legitimize to the other Nehesy his power. The Medjay were long time allies of the Egyptians beginning with the 18th dynasty so it would not be unsual for some Egyptian kings to adopt the title 'Great of Medja' showing suzerainty over them.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: As usual Doug, your point is null yet you make it out to be mountain worth standing on. Yes, Egyptian civilization originated in the 'south' as in Ta-Shemau, among 'black' people but how does that change the fact that black people are diverse?
DJ, I am going to be civil here, but you are absolutely verging on trolling right now. Because you are absolutely avoiding the point, which is you cannot simply use the color black as a marker of so-called "Nubian" ancestry. I called you out on it and instead of just accepting that black skin color was just as common in the dynastic kingdom as Southern areas, you continue to dig into this rubric of trying to argue that somehow "black" as a color is a marker of foreign identity. And you refuse to let go of that absolute BS argument. Again, "black" is the root of the name of the country itself and "black" as a color was used for the most famous and exhalted female queen of any queen in dynastic history. And the fact that you are going to sit here and try to argue that this use of black within the cosmology and identity of the dynastic kingdom is separate from the black so-called "Nubian" shows what you are supporting is a arbitrary and inconsistent definition of blackness as a marker of cultural and political identity. This is a fairly obvious contradiction that purely arises out of adhering to Eurocentric concepts on the ancient Nile Valley. If Mentuhotep and other pharaohs took so-called "Nubian" wives and elevated them in the Middle Kingdom and then so-called Nubian allies were a key part of the rise of the 17th dynasty rulers and then the foundation of the 18th via Ahmose Nefertari, then it is fairly obvious that her black skin is more than symbolic and likely a continuation of the tradition of elevating so-called "Nubian" women to important roles within the dynastic kingdom. Not to mention why is she the only queen of dynastic history depicted this way? You haven't addressed this at all and instead show that you have no desire to address the facts and evidence to support claims of "nubians" while relying on lookership alone as the basis for your use of the designation. It is arbitrary and inconsistent. That was the point and still is the point and you are simply showing that you refuse to go beyond that.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Again Egyptians noted differences between Mehuwi and Shemawi as well as between them and Keshli (Kushites). Ethnic difference exists even amongst black people. This is like saying Greek culture originated in the north among whites but ignore the fact that Greeks were different from Macedonians, Thracians, and others.
Again, I never said Maiherpri was Nubian only that it was a possibility since the 18th dynasty adopted Kushite royals into their family. As for Ahmose Nefertari there is NO evidence whatsoever for having Nehesy ancestry, and we have told you numerous times that her jet-black image is SYMBOLIC of her divine status like Iset (Isis) as Kmt-wrt (Great Black). Her original skin tone was the same as her husband who was her brother. You are obviously confused.
And as proof of what I said, you go right back to propping up your whole argument based on lookership alone as proof of so-called "nubian" ancestry for Maiherpri. Because again, that is where this started. And you refuse to even discuss the evidence for Ahmose Nefertari and her potential so-called "Nubian" ancestry, which just shows you aren't even engaging in a scholarly discussion and are just regurgitating irrelevant factoids. You cannot tell if someone is a so-called "Nubian" by looks on AE art alone is the point. That is not even scholarly. Because not all so-called "Nubians" looked like modern day Dinka or Nuer. Some like the populations between Aswan and the 2nd cataract would have looked no different than those of the dynastic population. So again I am calling out your absurd assignment of so-called "Nubian" identity for dynastic officials who are not listed as being anything other than high ranking nobles of the dynastic kingdom and nothing else. And if you were being serious and consistent in the usage of this argument, you would acknowledge the other so-called "Nubian" high officials, royals and queens such as potentially Ahmose Nefertari and others. And your whole defense against Nefertari being so-called "Nubian" is again "lookership", not evidence of her family tree or evidence of relations between the 17th dynasty and so-called "Nubian" allies.
And in reality what you are sitting here saying is a reiteration of all the Eurocentric talking points of Egyptology. They have not clarified the origins and relationships of the 17th dynasty and they haven't even been able to clearly identify who the Hyksos were in the same time period. They hardly ever mention Ahmose Nefertari as the most famous and revered Queen of the entire dynastic era because she is so often depicted as jet black, while they constantly keep pushing Nefertiti and her white bust as somehow the ideal of beauty from the ancient NIle, when it wasnt. And this is why Ahmose Nefertari cannot even be suggested to be of so-called "Nubian" ancestry because that goes against the narrative of Egyptology itself. Not to mention that a big part of this narrative depends on depicting so-called "Nubia" as a single monolithic entity for "All blacks" to the South, when that is absolutely not how it was looked at in the dynastic era. And this is why this construct of "nubia" is problematic and why I call it out. It is almost equivalent to the concept of "sub saharan" Africa as a monolithic identity and culture.
As for my overall intrpretation of the relationship between the dynastic kingdom and southern kingdoms is as something more akin to game of thrones. You basically had a bunch of kingdoms fighting each other from which emerged the dynastic state from among the various factions (all of which are obviously black). This is what you see in stories about the founding of the dynastic state itself. But those factions didn't go away and there were still many factions and kingdoms to the south that were influential in the culture of the dynastic state as allies, soldiers and citizens. And periodically various elements of these factions would rise up and rebel against the dynastic order and cause chaos. That can be seen in the first intermediate period and in the second intermediate period. And it was among those various factions that numerous pharaohs or high officials arose who in turn would go to war against those other factions to prevent them from usurping their rule. A good example of this is seen in the texts written by Ahmose Son of Ebana. So there was no monolithic "Nubia" as opposed to various factions and kingdoms to the South, some who were allies and some who were enemies and those allegiances fluctuated over time.
Doug, as usual your long winded counter-argument is nothing more than a giant straw house. You did not refute anything I said but merely put words in my mouth.
NO! I never said Nubians looked "Dinka" or "Nuer" because Dinka and Nuer were not only Nilo-Saharan speakers but in facial morphology they had broad morphotype in contrast the narrow morphotype more common in North Africans which the actual Nubians were. There is more suspicion for Maiherpri being Nubian than Ahmose-Nefertari because the latter came from the 18th dynasty known for adopting Kushites into the royal household and his pictures depict him with his natural complexion which was much darker. Meanwhile the jet-black complexion of Ahmose-Nefertari was purely symbolic of her divine status since her actual skin color would have been that of her brother-husband. While we don't know too much about the 17th dynasties family relations, we have yet to find evidence that they are related to Nubians. Seqenere Tao's prognathism was taken as such by Harris and Wente as a possibility they may be related to Nubians like the Medjay but there is no evidence to be certain especially since prognathism was not unusual in Upper Egypt.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Not really relevant now, but before I 'left', I liked to see more people drop knowledge bombs.
The OP had detailed info showing a difference between Nubians at the Egyptian border and Upper Nubians, in terms of hair texture. That was never talked about on here, and has never been talked about since.
After years of posting here, the limitations and patterns on this site become almost tangible.
And for the record. Keita's interpretation is wrong. Badarian hair is not Like "Fulani hair or Kanuri hair". For whatever reason, Keita misquoted Strouhal. That article going around talking about Egyptian hair (the one with the African author) also has a bunch of mistakes, including quotes from Keita.
And modern Egyptian hair is not the same as ancient Egyptian hair (see the +20% SSA ancestry in modern Egyptians, reported in the Abusir study, for instance. So, modern Egyptians with Afro-textured hair doesn't prove anything in itself.
I've dropped hints every now and then that modern dark skinned Egyptians and North Africans are not necessarily ancient. But people are going to post what they want. It is what it is.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Not really relevant now, but before I 'left', I liked to see more people drop knowledge bombs.
The OP had detailed info showing a difference between Nubians at the Egyptian border and Upper Nubians, in terms of hair texture. That was never talked about on here, and has never been talked about since.
That was actually addressed in the last page. The Kushites tend to have coiled hair in contrast to the Egyptians or as you've pointed out Lower Nubian groups.
quote:After years of posting here, the limitations and patterns on this site become almost tangible.
And for the record. Keita's interpretation is wrong. Badarian hair is not Like "Fulani hair or Kanuri hair". For whatever reason, Keita misquoted Strouhal. That article going around talking about Egyptian hair (the one with the African author) also has a bunch of mistakes, including quotes from Keita.
And modern Egyptian hair is not the same as ancient Egyptian hair (see the +20% SSA ancestry in modern Egyptians, reported in the Abusir study, for instance. So, modern Egyptians with Afro-textured hair doesn't prove anything in itself.
I've dropped hints every now and then that modern dark skinned Egyptians and North Africans are not necessarily ancient. But people are going to post what they want. It is what it is.
If you're talking about the source I pointed, you're correct, it is somewhat low tiered in terms of the data were used to discussing, trichometric index aside. As for the Keita claims on Kanuri hair, can you verify what is meant by that?
And yes we know that modern Egyptians are not the same as ancient Egyptians with not just the SSA ancestry but also the extra Asiatic ancestry. Ironically I've seen more 'kinky' hair from Delta Egyptians than Upper Egyptians.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^From what I remember, it was especially Nubians at the Egyptian border that had high rates (exclusively?) of the Egyptian hair type (wavy-straigjt and some curly), not Lower Egyptians as a whole. Mummies from Lower Egypt and Kush also had examples of this but from the data, one of the epicenters, was the Egyptian border area, and going south from there, along the river, I do not recall there being another epicenter with a spike as noticeable as at the Egyptian border, although there were minor spikes here and there (I seem to remember a body pit, for instance, where such individuals were found, away from the Egyptian border).
What I mean with Keita is that Strouhal clearly said that, among the Badarian hairs, there were wavy, straight and curly hairs, but that he only took the hairs of what he considered "mixed individuals" (by which he means, mixed-looking individuals) for followup analyses. It's this non-representative "mixed" bunch, that does not include any of the straight Badarian hairs, that Keita ran with and compared to his own subjective assessments of Kanuri and Fulani.
EDIT I wrote Lower Egypt in places above, when I meant lower Nubia. I never even meant to talk about Lower Egypt, so all references to Lower Egypt can be exchanged to Lower Nubia.
In some of the Badariancrania hair was preserved, thanks to good condi- tions in the desert sand. In the first series, according to the description of the excavators, they were curly in 6 cases, wavy in 33 cases and straight in 10 cases. They were black in I6 samples, dark brown in II, brown in I2, light brownin i and grey in I I cases.25 Thanks to the courtesy of Dr Lawrence and Dr Garlick from the Duckworth Laboratory in Cambridge, I was able to take samples of seven of the racially mixed Badarian individuals which were macroscopically curly (spirals of Io-20 mm in diameter) or wavy (25-35 mm). They were studied microscopically by S. Tittelbachova' from the Institute of Anthro- pology of the Charles University, who found in five out of seven samples a change in the thickness of the hair in the course of its length, sometimes with a simultaneous narrowing of the hair pith. The outline of the cross- sections of the hairs was flattened, with indices ranging from 35 to 65. These peculiarities also show the Negroid influence among the Badarians Evidence of the Early Penetration of Negroes into Prehistoric Egypt https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-african-history/article/abs/evidence-of-the-early-penetration-of-negroes-into-prehistoric-egypt/87FB120E902B86D7ABFC6EF9EE1FAE74 Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ This makes me think about similar trends in say the Horn of Africa where you clearly see a distinction between northern and coastal Horners with coiled hair vs. southern and interior Horners with looser straighter hair.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ This makes me think about similar trends in say the Horn of Africa where you clearly see a distinction between northern and coastal Horners with coiled hair vs. southern and interior Horners with looser straighter hair.
you didn't intend to say the reverse?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ What do you mean?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ This makes me think about similar trends in say the Horn of Africa where you clearly see a distinction between northern and coastal Horners with coiled hair vs. southern and interior Horners with looser straighter hair.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ What do you mean?
this
quote: trends in say the Horn of Africa where you clearly see a distinction between northern and coastal Horners with with looser straighter hair vs. southern and interior Horners coiled hair
but whatever the case, I think it would be better to attempt that using ethnic groups name in Ethiopia
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ No! What I initially wrote was accurate-- populations in the northern part of the Horn and around the coasts have coiled hair despite their higher concentration of Eurasian ancestry, whereas those in the south and closer to the interior with less Eurasian ancestry have straighter hair. This was explained to you earlier in this thread which destroys your claim that straighter hair is associated with Eurasian ancestry.
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Fragment of Raised relief, Late 25th - early 26th Dynasty, Brooklyn Museum
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Note the maxillary!
. It obviously does not mean "negro" as James Breasted would have us believe! LOL
