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Here it is proposed the shape and design of the Egyptian blue crown (Khepresh) derived from observations of Mars when is close proximity to earth during pharaonic times.
posted
if this were the case the crown would be shaped spherically or half sphere not oblong
Cheikh Anta Diop had noted some similarity between the blue crown and a Watusi hairstyle, not exactly the same but both with the ridge feature on an angle
Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
^ I could still make out some spirals on the khepresh of that statue albeit very faint. Not that I think it's derived from hair. Like in many African kingdoms, the king's headdresses in Egypt were totemic and based on features or objects found in nature. The hedjet (white crown) for example probably represents a bull's penis while the deshret is said to represent a Nile lotus. It's very likely the Khepresh represented an animal or animal part of a plant or something. The planet Mars idea is very far fetched to me. For on thing the khepresh doesn't have a ring but a ridge. And as Lioness pointed out, the headdress is not even spherical.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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“if this were the case the crown would be shaped spherically or half sphere not oblong.”
This is incorrect. As clearly stated on my web if ‘Mars, the God of War’ (why such an epithet, unless actually observed at war?) entered into encounters with earth, the gravitational forces exerted on both bodies would be tremendous. Both bodies would become oval or egg-shaped – although on a much smaller scale (smaller body), this is analogous the tidal forces at play between the earth-moon system today.
The earth is slightly oval shaped due to the moon’s gravitational pull and the pull of the earth deems the moon also egg-shaped.
The above would be very similar to the blue crown which is egg-shaped.
I would also like to point out the fact that the planet Saturn has a distinct ablate shape, with its equatorial diameter 10% larger than its polar diameter. The Sun is also ablate. Moreover, Mars even today, is an oblate spheroid (due to the centrifugal force).
In short; if Mars danced with earth it most definitely would not appear spherical due to the tidal force of earth.
Gg
Posts: 20 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2008
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posted
The hair theory is ridiculous. Egyptians do not and did not have tight curtly hair that could be sculpted like that. The blue crown was never seen south of Egypt. Even the Nubian pharaohs seem not to have worn it, probably because it reminded them of the Egyptian pharaohs who attacked them!
There is also no evidence of any connection with the Tutsi, nor that the Tutsi hairstyles are an ancient design. Most of the Tutsi photos of this type come from the 1950s, and there is no reason to believe the fashion is much older than that time. There are no 'spirals' on the blue crown, only studs or disks, moreover. This sort of claim is why people laugh at afrocentrists!
The Mars theory also sounds far-fetched.
Posts: 870 | From: uk | Registered: Apr 2011
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I don't see any spirals but I know what you mean, circles.
And @ Rahotep1 actually ...
White guy fro
quote:San, Southern African 55.00
Zulu, Southern African 55.00
Sub-Saharan Africa 60.00
Tasmanian (Black) 64.70
Australian (Black) 68.00
Western European 71.20
Asian Indian 73.00
Navajo American 77.00
Chinese 82.60
[...]
A team of Italian anthropologists published their research in the Journal of Human Evolution in 1972 and 1980. They measured two samples consisting of 26 individuals from pre-dynastic, 12th dynasty and 18th dynasty mummies. They produced a mean index of 66.50.
The overall average of all four sets of ancient Egyptian hair samples was 60.02.
(wig -- incase anyone was unaware couldn't tell) For some reason many AE shaved their heads saved for when grieving or apparently in war (I also often notice that they in depictions of expeditions to places have their hair grown out a bit). They used wigs, which I've read from some where were often imported for whatever reason.
I've heard various explainations from lice inhabiting the Nile River Valley to them just finding head hair unhygenic or prefering to shave.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
^ Note taken, but let's please stick to the topic! This isn't about Egyptian hair but about the khepresh headdress! I still believe the headdress to be a totemic object, but I doubt it was Mars. Does anyone know of a more earthly natural object it could have resembled, specifically one found in the ancient Nile Valley??
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Well maybe the odd Egyptian could have managed a sculpted fro, (as could Bob Ross) but there is no evidence for Egyptians ever having hairstyles resembling this crown.
I don't think it's necessarily inspired by anything in nature. It is telling that this type of headdress is usually seen on chariot scenes (battle or hunting) and only appears in the New Kingdom, when chariots and warfare became more common. Although it is unfashionable to call it the war crown, I would propose that it evolves from a helmet. The ridges could have had a strengthening & protective function, both guarding the ears from sword blows and deflecting arrows away from the shoulders. The height was increased to make the wearer look more impressive. A common enough thing in military headgear.
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I am sticking with hair until new info pops up nothing ridiculous about that theory most of the Kemitians were happy to be nappy.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
^ The only problem with the hair theory as pointed out by Dahoslips is that Egyptians did not sculpt their afros or at least there is no evidence of this. Also the khepresh does not appear until New Kingdom times with the rise of the 17th-18th dynasties. It's possible the headdress may have to do with the origins of these dynasties perhaps even a Nubian origin. We don't know.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Additionally the Titsi hairdo has a ridge at the back, which is absent from the crown. The hair is also shaven square around the brow, whereas with the crown the forehead area is covered by a broad gold strip.
Other examples of the Tutsi hairdo don't so closely resemble the Egyptian crown. As I say there is no evidence that such hairstyles represent a very old tradition, and it seems to be a discontinued one now.
Given that most such images come from the 1950s, it's more probable, if anything, that if there was a connection, the Tutsis could have been inspired by the Egyptian crown, which they could have seen photos of. In support of this I would note that neither the headdress nor the hairstyle have been found among any people between Egypt and Rwanda.
That said it wouldn't be unprecedented for an ancient helmet to be based on a hairstyle.
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I had a thought, that if there is a natural form that inspired the blue crown it could be a beetle shell. Khepresh, the name of the crown, sounds similar to Khephri, the scarab god, and the scarab was often shown in the same blue and gold colours as the crown.
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^ The ancient Egyptian word 'kheper' means coming into being or arising which the Egyptians associated with dung beetles. Many dung beetles are black though and the god Khepri was often depicted in the sacred color regeneration-- black.
Even if the beetle is blue, I still don't see the resemblance.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
First off Tutsis are not Kemetian and they are separated by time and space but they both share cultural features with each other amongst others are cattle horn deformation and at least in one dynasty head elongation,so until I see a reasonably good explaination of the coils on the helmet without jumping through hoops.
Then the hair explaination is just as good as This^ No one is jumping through hoops here^.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by The Aten: Here it is proposed the shape and design of the Egyptian blue crown (Khepresh) derived from observations of Mars when is close proximity to earth during pharaonic times.
Of course we need to add planetary chaos into the equation where the egg-shape of Mars would be further perceived - that and a ring of debris around its equator (Mars spins approx the same rate as earth, once every 24 hours), in addition to igniting a few earthly volcanoes spewing out dust and debris into the atmosphere, thus granting Mars the distinctive blue crown colour. Probably a separate post but I believe the god Bess should be associated with volcanoes. Mainly due to his erupting 'volcanic' headgear as in the image above. A dwarf because from the local of Egypt any volcanoes (Santorini??) were seen erupting low on the horizon (no volcanoes in Egypt). The sword represents lightning, the snake, as the headgear erupting snake-like lava, also represented in his beard and hair (in this particular case). The two disks (and sometimes bulging eyes) possible represent planetary conjunctions - a time when earths volcanoes would erupt. Some say the two disks represent shields, but why two? why isn't he holding at least one of them? and why are they depicted as typical 'sun' disks i.e. with a thin band around them?
Gg
Posts: 20 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2008
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posted
Bes had nothing to do with volcanoes, as far as I know, and his head-dress was palm leaves.
Posts: 870 | From: uk | Registered: Apr 2011
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quote:Originally posted by rahotep101: I had a thought, that if there is a natural form that inspired the blue crown it could be a beetle shell. Khepresh, the name of the crown, sounds similar to Khephri, the scarab god, and the scarab was often shown in the same blue and gold colours as the crown.
You know what?
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
I actually see it now. Say that's the beetle'sass going in the up-right diagnol direction, its topside upleft and underside downright.^
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by rahotep101: I had a thought, that if there is a natural form that inspired the blue crown it could be a beetle shell. Khepresh, the name of the crown, sounds similar to Khephri, the scarab god, and the scarab was often shown in the same blue and gold colours as the crown.
You know what?
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
I actually see it now. Say that's the beetle'sass going in the up-right diagnol direction, its topside upleft and underside downright.^
The scaran's abdomen was in two sections (like a wing case). From the front the blue crown was often similarly divided in two by the body of the uraeus (cobra) running up from the brow.
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RaH 101 The scaran's abdomen was in two sections (like a wing case). From the front the blue crown was often similarly divided in two by the body of the uraeus (cobra) running up from the brow.
Plausible.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by rahotep101: In that case it's a stylized lotus flower:
Normally it's palm leaves.
Actually what Bes wore on his head is a crown of ostrich feathers same as the one the goddess of the south Anuket wore and was also the crown worn by Kushite kings.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
The Blue Crown/Scarab theory actually sounds plausible, You can see it in the Ramses Image..
Posts: 8805 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
I think that Gilligan's interpretation of the blue crown as representing Mars is not only correct but is also truly brilliant. In order to appreciate it, you need to read Immanuel Velikovsky's "Worlds in Collision" and then more of the literature about events in the skies above late Bronze Age Egypt. It also helps to view other images of pharaonic crowns representing Venus and Mars--in particular, the relief sculpture of Ramses II and Nefertari at Abu Simbel. Recent evidence, including those items interpreted by Gilligan, shows that Velikovsky was essentially right about his main arguments, though he made mistakes in peripheral areas that permitted his detractors to discredit him in the eyes of many scientists.
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Kenneth J. Dillon the ancient Kemites named Mars Her Descher which means the red one then why make the Blue crown or Khepresh Blue?? the Deshret crown or Red crown would have been more suitable as a crown for Mars way more so the the Blue crown,this is subjective but it looks like either a Tutsi hairdo or Rahotep's Beatle.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Kenneth J. Dillon: I think that Gilligan's interpretation of the blue crown as representing Mars is not only correct but is also truly brilliant. In order to appreciate it, you need to read Immanuel Velikovsky's "Worlds in Collision" and then more of the literature about events in the skies above late Bronze Age Egypt. It also helps to view other images of pharaonic crowns representing Venus and Mars--in particular, the relief sculpture of Ramses II and Nefertari at Abu Simbel. Recent evidence, including those items interpreted by Gilligan, shows that Velikovsky was essentially right about his main arguments, though he made mistakes in peripheral areas that permitted his detractors to discredit him in the eyes of many scientists.
Velikovsky Worlds in Collision (1950
Under the weight of many arguments, I came to the conclusion--about which I no longer have any doubt--that it was the planet Venus, at the time still a comet, that caused the catastrophe of the days of Exodus (181).
When Venus sprang out of Jupiter as a comet and flew very close to the earth, it became entangled in the embrace of the earth. The internal heat developed by the earth and the scorching gases of the comet were in themselves sufficient to make the vermin of the earth propagate at a very feverish rate. Some of the plagues [mentioned in Exodus] like the plague of the frogs...or of the locusts, must be ascribed to such causes (192). Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Brada-Anansi, yes, Mars would normally be seen as a red planet. But, as Gilligan points out, the dust and debris thrown up into the atmosphere as well as in interplanetary space as a consequence of the approaches of Venus and Mars made Mars look blue. He cites similar reports of a blue moon, etc. after volcanic eruptions.
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Lioness, I know of no author more vulnerable to selective quotations than Velikovsky; he was a daring, provocative theoretical scientist. There is a simple explanation of why the ancients and Velikovsky thought that Venus had emerged as a comet from Jupiter. Search "Jupiter, Venus, and Velikovsky". That article also contains an image of Ramses II and Nefertari with Mars and Venus headdresses. I think that you need to read Velikovsky cover to cover before arriving at any judgment. Then you will see why a critical fact about New Kingdom Egypt was that the sky was upon occasion filled with dust and debris. Gilligan's interpretation is an excellent contribution to Egyptology and the history of astronomy.
quote:Originally posted by Kenneth J. Dillon: Lioness, I know of no author more vulnerable to selective quotations than Velikovsky; he was a daring, provocative theoretical scientist. There is a simple explanation of why the ancients and Velikovsky thought that Venus had emerged as a comet from Jupiter. Search "Jupiter, Venus, and Velikovsky". That article also contains an image of Ramses II and Nefertari with Mars and Venus headdresses. I think that you need to read Velikovsky cover to cover before arriving at any judgment. Then you will see why a critical fact about New Kingdom Egypt was that the sky was upon occasion filled with dust and debris. Gilligan's interpretation is an excellent contribution to Egyptology and the history of astronomy.
I simply quoted Velikovsky with no comment
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posted
Yes, but your picture of Mars was in a sense a comment. Anyway, I hope you can find the time to read Velikovsky's book. It has plenty of fascinating details and arguments that help put Egyptian events into a global context.
quote:Originally posted by Kenneth J. Dillon: Yes, but your picture of Mars was in a sense a comment. Anyway, I hope you can find the time to read Velikovsky's book. It has plenty of fascinating details and arguments that help put Egyptian events into a global context.
the picture of how Mars looked to ancient people wasn't general, not connected to Velikovsky
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