posted
All sensationalism aside, what is really known about this mummy? Are there any scientific reports? Any systematic studies at all?
BM EA 32751 is one of six contemporaneous mummies recovered from the same site at Gebelein. Only two others have hair color description and their's is brown.
The grave goods displayed alongside BM 32751 are not from its burial.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
^ I've said it in a couple of other threads and I'll say it again. When after long periods of decomposition especially in an arid environment, eumelanin--the pigment that makes hair black--is lost, while phaelomelanin--the lighter pigment remain.
This is the reason why naturally preserved mummies from Peru also display light colored hair.
As for 'Ginger' and his companions, all we know is that they are representatives of the Naqada II culture in Gebelein, Egypt which is about 40 km south of Thebes.
Certainly Ginger nor anybody in this region and time were redheads or auburns etc.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
"It is interesting to note that the oldest so-called naturally preserved body, or natural mummy of an Egyptian ever found - "Ginger" was of a "European" type with Red hair. This body (now in the British Museum), dating from 3400B.C. was almost perfectly preserved in a shallow grave in the hot, dry sands near Gebelein [Per Hathor] in Southern Upper Egypt"
(Egypt Trunk Of The Tree: A modern Survey Of An Ancient Land Volumes 1-2 Simson R. Najovits; 2004)
Posts: 175 | From: Who knows? | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
^ And it is interesting to note that my entire post above you flew over your degenerated little brain. No matter.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
How is BM EA 32751 the oldest ever found when 5 other mummies were interned in the same burial? Where are the scientific studies equating any of those mummies with Europeans?
quote:Originally posted by Spiralman: "It is interesting to note that the oldest so-called naturally preserved body, or natural mummy of an Egyptian ever found - "Ginger" was of a "European" type with Red hair. This body (now in the British Museum), dating from 3400B.C. was almost perfectly preserved in a shallow grave in the hot, dry sands near Gebelein [Per Hathor] in Southern Upper Egypt"
(Egypt Trunk Of The Tree: A modern Survey Of An Ancient Land Volumes 1-2 Simson R. Najovits; 2004)
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Once again, this is what I'm after. Anything else is a waste of storage and bandwidth. Ethnocentric sensationalism can go to your stock in trade run of the mill threads of degenerated type clap trap drivel now so common to this forum. This thread is for posters competent in uncovering reports, accurately presenting them with original analysis and critique thus increasing knowledge not just hedging racialist sympathied outdated theories.
BM EA 32751 is one of six contemporaneous mummies recovered from the same site at Gebelein. Only two others have hair color description and their's is brown.
The grave goods displayed alongside BM 32751 are not from its burial.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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"This body (now in the British Museum), dating from 3400B.C. was almost perfectly preserved in a shallow grave in the hot, dry sands near Gebelein [Per Hathor] in Southern Upper Egypt"
Really?? If they mean skeletally .. ok. If not
The guy must've looked like Carnage from SpiderMan Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
It appears that Spiral Man is referencing Burlington News article on blondes in ancient Egypt. The book Egypt: Trunk of the Tree does reference the natural red haired mummy of Ginger but it does not state Gingr is a European type. Most likely this is simply a conclusion of the author based primarily upon the red hair color of the mummy Ginger.
Ginger and Rameses II red hair seems to be the only evidence people have to make the ancient Egyptians like Northern/Western Europeans. Rameses II is the only one confirmed by electron microscopy as being naturally red haired.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
In any event it's still not a scientific report nor a systematic study, which is all I'm interested in and the reason why I broached this thread.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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"It is interesting to note that the oldest so-called naturally preserved body, or natural mummy of an Egyptian ever found - "Ginger"... This body (now in the British Museum), dating from 3400B.C. was almost perfectly preserved in a shallow grave in the hot, dry sands near Gebelein [Per Hathor] in Southern Upper Egypt"
A modern artificially colored (gray hair on the sides)hair or wig on an admixed East African and 'Ginger' 3400BCE Predynastic mummy.
Ginger's natural wheat to copper skin tone is well preserved. Blood pools by gravity mostly in muscle tissue after death and is restricted by the bent joints. Also note the greatest decay is in the large blood engorged muscle tissues. Ginger's hair color is possibly the result of UV exposure, malnutrition and/or disease. Natural brown hair was found on two more Predynastic mummies -
quote:A modern artificially colored (gray hair on the sides)hair or wig on an admixed East African
Did you just pull this out of the sky? "Admixed" with what and based on what? "Artificial" how? LOL, you are a joke.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
^ Yes, that is the habit that he shares with Lyingass. They just like to pull sh|t out their asses and try to pass them off as 'facts'. LOLPosts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ And it is interesting to note that my entire post above you flew over your degenerated little brain. No matter.
And its interesting to note that according to you i am supposed to believe your Afrocentric pontificating post, (you being a nobody and all with no credentials whatsoever) over the authorities with credentials who have dedicated their lives into this particular field.
Posts: 175 | From: Who knows? | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
You guys are so easily sidetracked to veer toward the direction trolls point and chase your tails over matters already beaten to death (NE African "admixture") instead of fresh investigation of so-called controversial archaeology findings.
This guy is not the focus of my thread. The supplied photo is not in context so we know little about him although it is easy enough to tell he is wearing a headpiece.
This mummy is the subject of my thread. A lot has been said about it since Europeans adopted it lovingly bestowing their nickname Ginger on it because of its ginger colored hair.
The myth of it being, solo, the oldest mummy has been laid since we know five others were found along with it. It being European is a patent myth and silly because it is Egyptian. Also the grave goods around it in its museum display is a falsehood because none of those objects were found in its burial.
One solid thing missing about BM EA 32751 is something beyond mere curator description and book author suppostions is actual scientific reports or systematic studies of the kind found in professional journals.
That is what this thread was made for, to post information from such sources if indeed any exist which seems not to be the case. I thank in advance anyone who can locate and contribute the requested material.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Spiralbrain: And its interesting to note that according to you i am supposed to believe your Afrocentric pontificating post, (you being a nobody and all with no credentials whatsoever) over the authorities with credentials who have dedicated their lives into this particular field.
And it is even more interesting that you complain of Afrocentrism when we are discussing Egypt which IS African.
As far as what the authorities with proper credentials. Here is what they have to say:
"The evidence also points to linkages to other northeast African peoples, not coincidentally approximating the modern range of languages closely related to Egyptian in the Afro-Asiatic group (formerly called Hamito-Semetic). These linguistic similarities place ancient Egyptian in a close relationship with languages spoken today as far west as Chad, and as far south as Somalia. Archaeological evidence also strongly supports an African origin. A widespread northeastern African cultural assemblage, including distinctive multiple barbed harpoons and pottery decorated with dotted wavy line patterns, appears during the early Neolithic (also known as the Aqualithic, a reference to the mild climate of the Sahara at this time).
Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this time resembles early Egyptian iconography. Strong connections between Nubian (Sudanese) and Egyptian material culture continue in later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper Egypt. Similarities include black-topped wares, vessels with characteristic ripple-burnished surfaces, a special tulip-shaped vessel with incised and white-filled decoration, palettes, and harpoons...
Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization."
Donald Redford (2001) The Oxford encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt, Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p. 28
^ Notice they said NOTHING of Egyptian culture being tied to Mesopotamia or even any European area. I suppose this distinguished white gentleman from Oxford who is also an expert Egyptologist is "Afrocentric" as well! LOLPosts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
You know the answer in advance to your posed question. This is also considered trolling. Evidence to support your confirmation bias not necessarily empirical evidence is what you desire. I presented forensic based evidence and you brush it off as irrelevant. Thanks for revealing your true agenda.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: You guys are so easily sidetracked to veer toward the direction trolls point and chase your tails over matters already beaten to death (NE African "admixture") instead of fresh investigation of so-called controversial archaeology findings.
This guy is not the focus of my thread. The supplied photo is not in context so we know little about him although it is easy enough to tell he is wearing a headpiece.
This mummy is the subject of my thread. A lot has been said about it since Europeans adopted it lovingly bestowing their nickname Ginger on it because of its ginger colored hair.
The myth of it being, solo, the oldest mummy has been laid since we know five others were found along with it. It being European is a patent myth and silly because it is Egyptian. Also the grave goods around it in its museum display is a falsehood because none of those objects were found in its burial.
One solid thing missing about BM EA 32751 is something beyond mere curator description and book author suppostions is actual scientific reports or systematic studies of the kind found in professional journals.
That is what this thread was made for, to post information from such sources if indeed any exist which seems not to be the case. I thank in advance anyone who can locate and contribute the requested material.
posted
It's easy to call me a fool or to project one's own sociopolitical biased agenda motives onto me. What's not so easy is to move beyond recapping what anyone can see with their own eyes and unqualified summary comments by writers who are neither anthropologists, forensic professionals, nor scientists and list for us by title and author any scientific reports or any systematic studies undertaken on BM EA 32751 and post quotes from them here along with ones own analysis and/or critique of said sources.
To date no one has done so. Instead we have had filler like Peruvian mummies, non-specialist comments from books, ad hominem flames, ditzy snide comments, and chest beating from a bruised ego.
My search continues so far without fruit (excepting reports on specimen conservation and lighting and I thank in advance anyone who can quote and cite a scientific report or systematic study on BM EA 32751, a mummy once dubbed Ginger (before the Human Tissue Act 2004 led the British Museum to ethically rescind that affectionate nickname out of respect for the dead).
From the British Museum Description Body of naturally mummified adult male lying in flexed position.
Skull - Tufts of ginger-coloured hair are present on the scalp. No obvious fractures. Mouth slightly open. All teeth present and appear healthy.
Thorax and Abdomen - Comminuted fracture, 4th left rib. Fracture, anterior third of 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th left ribs. The spinal column is free from fractures and dislocations. The intervertebral discs appear normal. No arthritic changes are present. There is a large, faintly granular opacity within the thorax. Stellate crack fracture on the wing of the left ilium. Fracture through the right pubic ring.
Arms - No definite fractures seen. The left index finger and several of the terminal phalanges of the feet are missing.
Legs - Both femoral shafts are fractured and there is a fracture of the shaft of the left tibia and fibula. Three shells are present on the soft tissue just behind the left knee. No lines of arrested growth are visible.
Dimensions Length: 163 centimetres
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
I dont know if it counts as I can not provide proof but a while back in a debate on Topix over the "Ginger" mummy I came across I believe Egyptologists that said the Ginger Hair was that way due to the Arid climate and was not the natural hair color of the Mummy.
Also where did the rumor start that the Mummy was the oldest in Egypt..??
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
^ Who knows when the rumor started. The Gebelein mummies are among the oldest in Egypt but they are not the oldest. The oldest mummies actually found in Egypt come from the western desert areas. And the oldest mummy in Africa which predates these is the mummified boy in Libya called Uan Muhuggiag and was incidentally labeled as 'black'.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
World records change with time. While the Gebelein six were long time record holders the Hierakonpolis (on the Nile) two hundred sixty now hold Egypt's oldest mummies record. They date to c.3500 BCE and some of the female ones have head and hands wrapped. A couple have extensions or weaves and henna colored hair.
Nekhen is the proper name for HierakonPolis.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Cited in Rogers, Spencer Lee, Biological Anthropology:Personal identification from human remains_ 1987, also found in American Anthropologist Vol. 90 June 1988:
"Hair often survives for a considerable time after death and can be recognized as to color and to some extent texture. A study in which hair was buried experimentally in the soil for a two year period revealed that there was no appreciable change until after one month, but it became streaked and brittle after one year. TWO YEARS WAS FOUND TO BE THE MAXIMUM DURATION OF CAUCASIAN HAIR BURIED UNDERGROUND."
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
Nothing has changed. Same old recycled arguments.
Ausar shold know better. Regurgitating that internet folklore by the high schoool drop outs, that Rameses had red hair. There is no authentic prooof or study that determned Rameses had red hair. The one study posted by Dana and/or others, by German Scientist, confirmed Rameses had dark brown hair and brown eyes. . . like 90% of Africans. . .and humanity.
Always said Ausar is a suspicious character.
quote:Originally posted by ausar: It appears that Spiral Man is referencing Burlington News article on blondes in ancient Egypt. The book Egypt: Trunk of the Tree does reference the natural red haired mummy of Ginger but it does not state Gingr is a European type. Most likely this is simply a conclusion of the author based primarily upon the red hair color of the mummy Ginger.
Ginger and Rameses II red hair seems to be the only evidence people have to make the ancient Egyptians like Northern/Western Europeans. Rameses II is the only one confirmed by electron microscopy as being naturally red haired.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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