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Metinoot pride is only part of it,one can only take bragging rights so far but information is key and yes we have plenty of it Afrocentrism is sometimes confused with what Al~Takuri calls Afro-eccentrism the two are not one and the same,have you taken the time to look at the connections that stretches from the Nile to the Niger? http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=006511 GO here^..and Africans were taken from all parts of Africa and ended up in the new world some from as far as Madagascar, so ancient Israelites not with standing although Jews exists anciently in all parts of Africa as Africans..Ethiopians and Lembas of Southern Africa as well as those in West Africa to name a few, so never say never.
Mentinoot Dude there has to be something known of African history which could bring pride to African Americans. Because lineage cannot often be traced for African Americans they make up myths to satisfy curiousity. Religiousity and refering themselves as a "Lost Tribe of Israel" in Southern Baptist tradition is also a great myth. Nothing you stated confirms or denies that African Americans have created this myth of their heritage because so few academics, historians have taken the time to research the lineages of African Americans. Diversion is a tactic of the delusional.Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by A Simple Girl: I think that white people intuitively know that their ancestors had something to do with ancient Egypt. The question ought to be.....Are black people too obsessed with ancient Egypt?
Bullcaca. there is no way on God's green earth my ancestors had anything to do with ancient Egypt.
Personally I think you are some ghetto guy not of Caucasian extraction who's created a "white girl" troll character for this racist amusement.
You got that right. I'm just some black ghetto guy having fun.lol
Thats exactly why the moniker "A Simple Girl" as chosen.
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan: A fair point- the scholarship of Europe deserves fulsome credit. But it does not explain why the interest and/or obsession runs so deep. The scholarship is a tool of the obsession. Why is Egyptology not some muted field like Chaldean studies or something, rather than a culture wide fascination thru multiple centuries? The books referenced offer a variety of reasons from curiosity,to religious reasons, to appropriation of Egyptian prestige to add to one own's culture's prestige.
And on scholarship, it could be argued that the Egyptians left their own documentation - in their temples, tombs, buildings, sculptures, pottery, paintings and even inscribed tools, etc which modern men today now merely study. In other words, any line of credit being given must be given to the Egyptians first for their accomplishments. If others study them fine, but their credit is a distant second to the main subject- people who already documented their own history, on their own terms, according to the criteria they saw fit, without help or permission from anyone else.
And yes Nile Valley peoples have been very interested in ancient Egypt. The Kushites if you remember were interested enough to almost conquer the country as early as the 17th dynasty, long before the 25th, and native Egyptians were always interested in their heritage prior to the Islamic conquest and intrusions of other foreigners.
West Africans were also interested. One of the best known black writers and historians of the 19th century- Edward Blyden, a West African, visited Egypt in 1866 and had a virtual epiphany on seeing the Great Pyramids for himself, expounding on the "enterprising Sons of Ham." The biblical references to Egypt, which Blyden's comment touches on shows that he did not necessarily need 19th century Egyptology to become what some call an early father of Afrocentrism. Blyden flipped current racist religious teaching on its head. Moses pronounced no curse of Ham, as claimed by later Jewish, Arab and white theologians. He writes of Egypt (Mizraim) as being a descendant of Ham. If blacks were descendants of Ham as everyone said in Blyden's day, then Blyden logically saw black kinship with the Egyptians. He didn't need Egyptologists to confirm his thinking. He could arrive at it just by reading the writings of Moses and refusing to accept racist interpretations of those writings- plus he saw the pyramids for himself. Another West African who wrote on the topic is James 'Africanus' Horton. So yeah, literate "West Africans" would be and were interested, without any prompting from Egyptology per se.
PS: what do you mean "African Prophet" Muhammed? He was a Arab, and quite distinct from dark Africans, as I have seen some Arabists carefully point out to various Farakhanites.
European interest has done as much harm as good in Egypt. For one they destroyed and stole a lot of artifacts from Egypt in the name of "treasure hunting" in the beginning their explorations. It was only later that conservation has become more prevalent and professional. Then there is the whole creation of the crackpot racial theories they created as part of their racist cult that became part of their "academic" discourse. And to top it all off, the institution of Egyptology itself has not and will not ever publicly say that ancient Egypt was a creation of black Africans. This institution was built and paid for by white European money to portray the ancient Egyptians as white. No matter how many scholarly articles come out saying that they were black Africans, the mainstream media and Egyptology itself will never ever acknowledge it or admit it in public. This is notwithstanding the fact that they now full well that this is the truth.
Posts: 8940 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan: A fair point- the scholarship of Europe deserves fulsome credit. But it does not explain why the interest and/or obsession runs so deep. The scholarship is a tool of the obsession. Why is Egyptology not some muted field like Chaldean studies or something, rather than a culture wide fascination thru multiple centuries? The books referenced offer a variety of reasons from curiosity,to religious reasons, to appropriation of Egyptian prestige to add to one own's culture's prestige.
And on scholarship, it could be argued that the Egyptians left their own documentation - in their temples, tombs, buildings, sculptures, pottery, paintings and even inscribed tools, etc which modern men today now merely study. In other words, any line of credit being given must be given to the Egyptians first for their accomplishments. If others study them fine, but their credit is a distant second to the main subject- people who already documented their own history, on their own terms, according to the criteria they saw fit, without help or permission from anyone else.
And yes Nile Valley peoples have been very interested in ancient Egypt. The Kushites if you remember were interested enough to almost conquer the country as early as the 17th dynasty, long before the 25th, and native Egyptians were always interested in their heritage prior to the Islamic conquest and intrusions of other foreigners.
West Africans were also interested. One of the best known black writers and historians of the 19th century- Edward Blyden, a West African, visited Egypt in 1866 and had a virtual epiphany on seeing the Great Pyramids for himself, expounding on the "enterprising Sons of Ham." The biblical references to Egypt, which Blyden's comment touches on shows that he did not necessarily need 19th century Egyptology to become what some call an early father of Afrocentrism. Blyden flipped current racist religious teaching on its head. Moses pronounced no curse of Ham, as claimed by later Jewish, Arab and white theologians. He writes of Egypt (Mizraim) as being a descendant of Ham. If blacks were descendants of Ham as everyone said in Blyden's day, then Blyden logically saw black kinship with the Egyptians. He didn't need Egyptologists to confirm his thinking. He could arrive at it just by reading the writings of Moses and refusing to accept racist interpretations of those writings- plus he saw the pyramids for himself. Another West African who wrote on the topic is James 'Africanus' Horton. So yeah, literate "West Africans" would be and were interested, without any prompting from Egyptology per se.
PS: what do you mean "African Prophet" Muhammed? He was a Arab, and quite distinct from dark Africans, as I have seen some Arabists carefully point out to various Farakhanites.
Well I think the obsession with Egypt stems from the fact that Egypt is such a mystery. I mean Greece and Rome are interesting but not really Mysterious, Egypt has an allure to it and it was such a brilliant civilization. Egypt was the worlds first world power, while the Greeks and Romans were figuring out how to build Strawhuts.
Also Egypt is the perfect place to build an Empire because of the desert and climate(little Rain) alot of Temples and such were preserved.
That is the only thing I can think of.
Posts: 8872 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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The problem is that European academics did not stop at ancient Egypt. When tracing the history of western Africa and portions of Central Africa you will find that many sophisticated groups from these regions were given fake lineages from so-called Hamitic groups. A good example of this is the Yoruba which many scholars tried to attribute to wandering 'Hamitic caucasoids.'' Even the Zulu people were called ''Hamitic caucasoids.''
The stealing of African history does not just stop at ancient Egypt.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by metinoot: Did Asia or Africa or the diverse South/Central America have a full force archeological movement?
Nope!
No. The whole discipline of archaeology was started by Europeans to learn more about their own ancient history. But when they discovered that non-Europeans had cultures even older, well that's when the disciplined boomed and it became a self-righteous way of claiming other cultures' heritages for themselves.
quote:What it appears to be is African Americans and African immigrants to EU and USA that are consumed with Ancient Egypt, trying to own it as a way of erasing a millennial of being second class citizens or outright slaves.
LOL I don't think so. Many African Americans I know claim ancient Egypt because they know it is part of their African history. Doing so does not erase their relatively recent history of oppression and discrimination anymore than it does for Jews' even longer history of discrimination and oppression even though the Bible and Christianity was written and based on them. Posts: 26853 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by A Simpleton: I think that white people intuitively know that their ancestors had something to do with ancient Egypt. The question ought to be.....Are black people too obsessed with ancient Egypt?
"The evidence also points to linkages to other northeast African peoples, not coincidentally approximating the modern range of languages closely related to Egyptian in the Afro-Asiatic group (formerly called Hamito-Semetic). These linguistic similarities place ancient Egyptian in a close relationship with languages spoken today as far west as Chad, and as far south as Somalia. Archaeological evidence also strongly supports an African origin. A widespread northeastern African cultural assemblage, including distinctive multiple barbed harpoons and pottery decorated with dotted wavy line patterns, appears during the early Neolithic (also known as the Aqualithic, a reference to the mild climate of the Sahara at this time).
Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this time resembles early Egyptian iconography. Strong connections between Nubian (Sudanese) and Egyptian material culture continue in later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper Egypt. Similarities include black-topped wares, vessels with characteristic ripple-burnished surfaces, a special tulip-shaped vessel with incised and white-filled decoration, palettes, and harpoons...
Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization."
Donald Redford (2001) The Oxford encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt, Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p. 28
^ There you go straight from the mind of a WHITE EUROPEAN who is an expert in the field of Egyptology. According to him Egyptian arose from indigenous Africans. There is not a word of European involvement at all. LOL
quote:Originally posted by metinoot: Bullcaca. there is no way on God's green earth my ancestors had anything to do with ancient Egypt.
Personally I think you are some ghetto guy not of Caucasian extraction who's created a "white girl" troll character for this racist amusement.
I'm afraid you're wrong, metinoot. Apparently not many whites are as proud of their European heritage as you are and need the imaginary accomplishments of ancestors elsewhere for their self-esteem.
Posts: 26853 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: The problem is that European academics did not stop at ancient Egypt. When tracing the history of western Africa and portions of Central Africa you will find that many sophisticated groups from these regions were given fake lineages from so-called Hamitic groups. A good example of this is the Yoruba which many scholars tried to attribute to wandering 'Hamitic caucasoids.'' Even the Zulu people were called ''Hamitic caucasoids.''
The stealing of African history does not just stop at ancient Egypt.
Right you are, Ausar! This is the point that many fail to realize. That because ancient Egypt was shown to be an African culture closely related to other African cultures, Western scholars could not help but try to white-wash the rest of Africa. Thus whenever an African culture had any similarities to Egypt (and there were A LOT) a wandering "caucasian" race had to be invoked giving rise to advanced culture in that region.
This is the reason why there are crazies like Pontikos and others who claim theories like "indigenous caucasoid Africans". Thus the question, 'Are white people too obsessed with ancient Egypt?' is just the main issue of an even larger problem: 'Are white people too obsessed with ancient AFRICA?'. The answer is obviously they are! Posts: 26853 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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No doubt as Jari says there are is a mix of factors including curiosity and a sense of wonder at such an ancient culture. On the other hand..
According to von Daniken's "Chariots of the Gods" the sarcophagus lid above from the Mayan culture represents an "ancient astronaut" ascending to the stars in his spaceship. Such ancient aliens could in similar manner, explain the advances of the Egyptians....
lol
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5939 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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The authors below expose much of the ideology behind geogrpahical labels and divisions and offer up their own "world regions" model - including interestingly an "African-American" zone. Their "African-America" includes not just the West Indies but the entire Caribbean and North-Eastern Brazil. North America remains and Ibero-America emerges.
Ehret's term 'Afrasan" also seems a more accurate descriptor for the language group that had 5 out of 6 members emerge in Africa.
The Myth of Continents: A Critique of Metageography Martin W. Lewis and Kären E. Wigen. 1997 ----------------------------------------- Review blurb: If you consider geography an objective science, think again. According to Martin W. Lewis and Karen E. Wigen, even the concept of continents is open to interpretation. Why, for example, do Europeans consider their little peninsula a whole continent while the vast territories of India and China are mere subcontinents? Contrast this worldview with that of the Indian mapmakers who depicted South Asia as the world's largest land mass and Europe as marginalized "hat-wearing islands." During the Cold War, the world was even further divided, this time into first, second, and third worlds. But how you classify the various regions of the world, Lewis and Wigen posit in The Myth of Continents, depends very much on where you happen to be standing at the time.
Having bravely exposed the ethnocentrism at the heart of geography, Lewis and Wigen then offer up their own division of the globe based on "world regions" rather than continents. Under such a scheme, Europe would become Western Eurasia, while the Western Hemisphere would become North America, Ibero-America, and African-America (divisions based on linguistic, cultural, and/or racial criteria). Whether or not you agree with the authors' division of the world, The Myth of Continents is a lively and thought-provoking exploration of a subject many of us take for granted. After reading this book, you'll never look at a map of the world in quite the same way. ----------------------------------------
Said authors criticize 'Afrocentrists" as being unable to decide onthe boundaries of Africa or using unrealistic boundaries, but offer up yet another version of the same "sub-Saharan" model in their World Regions approach.
Djehuti, Ausar, Doug, Explorer, etc what model would you all propose as a replacement for the current "Sub-Saharan' one? If you were writing a geography book, what new format would you use?
Posts: 5939 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan: what about pg 218? What do you have that's substantive to add?
sorry I don't quote from white people's books, that only gives them more attention validating their obsession. basically we need whites out of Egyptology.
I'm calling for a boycott of quoting any research by white authors.
Let's stop talking and take action.
Posts: 43388 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5939 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Plain and simple total and absolute domination on all levels.
And unfortunately the Africans have been indoctrinated to believe that crap.
The key reason for this is because the legends of King's Solomon's mines being in Africa was purposely concocted by the white industrialist/mercantile establishment as a way to entice and promote white settlement in South Africa. This fable is no different than the escape from persecution and promised land for the settlers in the Americas or other similar themes elsewhere. All are designed to take land and wealth from the natives and give it to the Europeans and attribute it to divine providence.
But it was simply part of the business strategy for the white elite to build a nation around their theft of foreign land. It was also necessary in order to create a loyal and dedicated group of foot soldiers to fight and conquer the natives.
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Look at the impressions of Western visitors to ancient Egyptian museum displays in the West, as discussed in the 'Consuming Egypt' book. I can understand why some would have these impressions, but would you say they are accurate as to what the ancients were trying to do and convey in terms of their own culture?
--And did ancient Egypt or Egyptians really "disappear without a trace"?
--And was AE really peopled by merely pharaohs and slaves? Such a stark dichotomy?
Posts: 5939 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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What's funny is that this denial of indigenous African ingenuity was done to a culture found in the southern fringes of the African continent far removed from the 'Near East' (and by proxy Europe in the minds of the euronuts). As such what hope could Egypt which is located in the polar opposite north have? Egypt which is right next door to the Near East. Even when mainstream Egyptology shows pharaonic culture developed independently in the African Nile Valley, or that the descendants of this culture in their most pristine form still exists today in rural Upper Egypt with their black skins and African appearances. It's a damn shame, the distortion and lies the West has done to world history.
quote:Originally posted by zarahan: Look at the impressions of Western visitors to ancient Egyptian museum displays in the West, as discussed in the 'Consuming Egypt' book. I can understand why some would have these impressions, but would you say they are accurate as to what the ancients were trying to do and convey in terms of their own culture?
What you have here in the case of Westerners are people who not only try to see themselves in the Egyptians but also project their own world or cultural views onto the Egyptians without fully understanding the Egyptians' own views. It is a common occurrence and was one that was even prevalent in Western scholarly studies of Egypt in the past.
quote:--Were the their goals indeed "sterile"?
--And did ancient Egypt or Egyptians really "disappear without a trace"?
--And was AE really peopled by merely pharaohs and slaves? Such a stark dichotomy?
Of course the answer to all these questions is NO.
1. The Egyptian were not obsessed with death but with life. The purpose of tombs, spells, and rituals post-mortem were for the afterlife or continuation of life after death.
2. Of course the Egyptians were militant when they needed to be. When they were threatened they struck back. What do you think the imperial 18th dynasty was about, not only protecting Egypt but gaining more economic power and control.
3. Again, Egypt was not a slave-based society like Greece or Rome. Slaves always made up a small minority and were mostly prisoners of war. The majority of labor performed in Egypt was done by paid employees.
4. The goals of Egyptians was the same as everyone else in the world to get on with their lives and maintain peace and harmony or 'Maat' as they call it.
5. As stated many times before. The Egyptians never disappeared. They still exist today. Though many of intermixed with foreigners, if you want to go see pristine Egyptian peoples who have preserved customs from pharaonic times just travel to rural Upper Egypt.
Posts: 26853 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Zemede: You can lead a pig to the water whole but you can not force it to drink.
I think that there is something fragile about the topic of the ancient egyptians. For europeans it was their idol for the greek culture and for africans it's the most popular culture that western people know when it comes to the contribution of african people to world history. Somebody told me that racism is actually a european invention and specially for the minority of african and afro american people who live abroad race and racism is a sensitive topic.
Nevertheless, the origin of the ancient egyptians was a mystery to the major discoverers because their are mostly arabic people living in egypt today... Incredibly every egyptian I talk to has no problem with ancient egyptians being habesha.
I agree that indigenous egyptian people are the ancestors of the ancient egyptians, but who were the ancestors of the ancient egyptians....this is what the whole story is all about... to me just looking at their face is enough to say they were habesha...but this arguments are nasty because some people who believed they were this unknown africans would be taken away a powerful source for their confidence...
As a matter of fact what has been written for many centuries about the origin and distribution of cultures seams to be wrong in the for front of my own research and especially in the foreground of the one and only brave european martin barnell.
I know european history very good and i have even read 5 books of aristotle and know exactly the origin of science.
The subject about the language, the ethnicity and culture of the ancient egyptian is for me nothing but a matter of curiosity in the first place and secondly a matter of image.
By the way eritrean and ethiopian history before the greeks is published as almost non existent
The most predictable strategy to deal with this subject of the origin and the ancient egyptians is by just referring to them as africans of all sorts.. A bit of here and a bit of their. Bejan, Berber and Indigenous... but everything has it's source...all life on earth has one core source.
It is easy and predictable to take the people of sudan and the indigenous people of egypt as the ancestors of ancient egyptian...
If the ancient egyptians were from Kenia or Negeria I would not care. I would say, yes the ancient egyptians were from Kenia and Negeria... (originally) but I haven't come across one evidence that they were from there...
The one and only reason I make this statement is not because I see similarities in some few elements of habesha culture and AE. The one and only reason why I am into this subject is because I can CONTRIBUTE (write this word please on the wall) to the discovery of the big question: who were the ancient egyptians and what language did they speak.
Habeshas have been a victim of prejudgement of other people. They have a rich culture that seemed to come from no where...
ATTENTION to all west africans who might take this personal. Habeshas and their culture are a phenomenon for themselves... If they think they are special doesn't mean they think other africans are not...
When it comes to who is qualified enough to CONTRIBUTE in the discovery of the origin of the AE?
Those who are their ancestors. It could be Egyptians and all neighbor countries.
I was lucky or even unlucky enough to relate to the phenomenon between Egypt and Eritrea and Ethiopia. I speak the language and know the culture.
The biggest problem is () that the sources available to most of us are FUNDAMENTALLY wrong.
First the origin of languages and writing is presented to us as it came from Mesopotamia and second almost all translation and EVEN the decoding of the hieroglyph is WRONG.
Look it up on wiki (the access to the avarage human knowledge). What do egyptologist say what's the meaning of Neferititi?
Beauty of Aten, the Beautiful one has come (This is your knowledge base lol)
Translated in: If I can't read it I just tell the world what I assume. I mean look at her she is beautiful and she has legs and can walk. There you go this is her name.
NO the decoding and translation of 90% of all hieroglyphs is wrong. Reasons for that can be found in the limitation of the alphabeth. The different system of writting of the alphabeth. The non-knowing of underestimated languages like tigrigna. For someone who can speak tigrigna - the statement tigrigna being the origin of arabic is not surprising.
The woman Hitler was in love with was called Nefeti = The Strenuous. You hear it everyday in Eritrea.
^^Hitler was in love with an Egyptian woman? Huh? If so it would indeed be a new "dimension" for white obsession with Egypt. Zemede several of your statements above do not appear accurate. Are you saying der Fuhrer liked the historical figure of Nefertiti OR that he was in love with an ACTUAL real woman named Nefertiti?
Posts: 5939 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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^^EDIT. Perhaps Hitler was in the mix with this. Apparently there is a tradition of neo-Nazi/Aryan obsession with Ancient Egypt. The Aryanists use the historical figure of Akhnaten, the "heretic" pharoah as sort of a heroic precursor of Nazism or Aryanism. Per the book below, this was developed in detail by Aryan theorist Savitri Devi, often called the mother of Nazi ideology. And there seems to be a quite active continuance of this since the 1960s per Hitler's Priestess book below. Well! Seemslike even the Neo-Nazi types are obsessed with Egypt.
In this window onto the roots and evolution of international neo-Nazism, Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke reveals the powerful impact of one of fascism's most creative minds.
Savitri Devi's influence on neo-Nazism and other hybrid strains of mystical fascism has been continuos since the mid-1960s. A Frenchwoman of Greek-English birth, Devi became an admirer of German National Socialism in the late 1920s. Deeply impressed by its racial heritage and caste-system, she emigrated to India, where she developed her racial ideology, in the early 1930s. Her works have been reissued and distributed through various neo-Nazi networks and she has been lionized as a foremother of Nazi ideology. Her appeal to neo-Nazi sects lies in the very eccentricity of her thought - combining Aryan supremacism and anti-Semitism with Hinduism, social Darwinisn, animal rights, and a fundamentally biocentric view of life - and has resulted in curious, yet potent alliances in radical ideology.
As one of the earliest Holocaust deniers and the first to suggest that Adolf Hitler was an avatar-- a god come to earth in human form to restore the world to a golden age - Devi became a fixture in the shadowy neo-Nazi world. In Hitler's Priestess, Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke examines how someone with so little tangible connection to Nazi Germany became such a powerful advocate of Hitler's misanthropy.
Hitler's Priestess illuminates the life of a woman who achieved the status of a prophetess for her penchant for redirecting authentic religious energies in the service of regenerate fascism.
The other book below says similar things about Akhnaten. Strange how one of the "blackest looking" Pharoahs, (so to speak) has been appropriated by Nazis.
Anyone have any info on Akhnaten's background and ancestry? Is there indeed an 'Aryan" connection? Why would so "negroid looking" a pharoah be taken up by Aryanists? And if he was "deformed" why such a figure and not a "whiter" looking type?
Posts: 5939 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan: Strange how one of the "blackest looking" Pharoahs, (so to speak) has been appropriated by Nazis.
Anyone have any info on Akhnaten's background and ancestry? Is there indeed an 'Aryan" connection? Why would so "negroid looking" a pharoah be taken up by Aryanists? And if he was "deformed" why such a figure and not a "whiter" looking type
Akhenaten with blue crown
Posts: 43388 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan: Strange how one of the "blackest looking" Pharoahs, (so to speak) has been appropriated by Nazis.
Anyone have any info on Akhnaten's background and ancestry? Is there indeed an 'Aryan" connection? Why would so "negroid looking" a pharoah be taken up by Aryanists? And if he was "deformed" why such a figure and not a "whiter" looking type
[IMG][/IMG] ........ Akhenaten with blue crown
Lioness, Akhenaten greatly idealized & stylized many of his portraits and sculptures in a different method from other Dynastic Art.
Your statuette of Akhenaten is most probably one of the many idealized & stylized portraits during the Amarna Art movement.
Amenhotep III (Akhenaten father):
Tiye (Akhenaten mother):
His parents are clearly Negroid so it only makes sense for him to be Negroid as well.
Akhenaten:
Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan: Strange how one of the "blackest looking" Pharoahs, (so to speak) has been appropriated by Nazis.
Anyone have any info on Akhnaten's background and ancestry? Is there indeed an 'Aryan" connection? Why would so "negroid looking" a pharoah be taken up by Aryanists? And if he was "deformed" why such a figure and not a "whiter" looking type
[IMG][/IMG] ........ Akhenaten with blue crown
Lioness, Akhenaten greatly idealized & stylized many of his portraits and sculptures in a different method from other Dynastic Art.
Your statuette of Akhenaten is most probably one of the many idealized & stylized portraits during the Amarna Art movement.
Amenhotep III (Akhenaten father):
Tiye (Akhenaten mother):
His parents are clearly Negroid so it only makes sense for him to be Negroid as well.
Akhenaten:
^^Nice examples. Ironic that "Aryans" have to choose such a "black looking" pharaoh to establish their bogus theories. But then again, as a method of deception or disinformation, it would be an excellent choice. Interestingly enough, in the various books above some New Agers see Tiye, Akhenaten's mother as a major influence on him, although they classify her as 'Asiatic.'
Posts: 5939 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Your statuette of Akhenaten is most probably one of the many idealized & stylized portraits during the Amarna Art movement.
The statue of Akenhaten with Blue Crown above is the least stylized, most naturally proportioned portrait of Akenhaten.
Other more well known sculptures of Akenhaten exaggerate various features to unrealistic proportions. This is typical of some of the Amarna art.
For example below is one of the most stylized Amarna renditions of Akenhaten:
The head has been elongated and narrowed to proportions that would be impossible for an actual human. The neck is unnaturally narrow. However, this stylization is beautiful on an artistic level.
Another example of Amarna stylization:
Here the effect is cartoonish. Not in actual human proportions.
Posts: 43388 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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There is nothing negro looking about the Armarna family. they could have all easily passed for relatives of yassr arafat, which is probably more accurate. The only negroes in ancient egypt were a few Nubians employed by the government, especially in the military.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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Folks just a quick lesson on how to administer a scholarly beatdown. It is very simple. Make the idiots explain what they mean and define their terms. You'll quickly find out that they can't. Its all mindless opinion driven by a crazed ideology.
Hammer wrote: -------------------------------------- There is nothing negro looking about the Armarna family --------------------------------------
Whats not Negroid about his idealized imagery and sculptures? [/QB]
Who said it wasn't Negroid? There is nothing "idealized" whatsoever about this statue. Because some statues in the Armarna period are idealized that does not mean all of them are idealized. Some of them are just realistic.
This sculpture is not idealized. In fact with the realism here he looks somewhat unattractive in my opinion. His proportions have not been exaggerated and there is no attempt here to make him look like other Pharaohs, therefore no idealization.
Posts: 43388 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by HERU: From the 18th-21st centuries researchers from Eurasia have looked for clever ways to transform a Saharan civilization into something foreign to its shores.
I suspect another tactic they've used is taking artifacts from the Hellenistic period and passing them off as representative of much earlier periods.
Perception is everything, and it all comes together in these vainglory attempts to Victorianize Ancient Egypt.
^^Good illustration of the distortion Wally.
Posts: 5939 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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[/qb][/QUOTE]^^Good illustration of the distortion Wally. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Boy - the painting on the right can probably beat out modern National Geographic in cartoon pseudorendition of ancient Egyptians. lol!
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Boy - the painting on the right can probably beat out modern National Geographic in cartoon pseudorendition of ancient Egyptians. lol!
Indeed, and they are portrayed conspicuously lighter than the Egyptians on the left. Explorer once said that we should look at ordinary Egyptians undergoing their normal day to day activities to get a good idea of the range of variation -referring to the miniature carvings. He had some pics of miniatures posted, but cant locate them.
Posts: 5939 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Well done in pointing this out you need to show this to that Abaza guy over at E/S this as he like throwing this very book cover in defense of an Euro-Asiatic Kemet.
Howe's book has some detailed info in it of historical interest as to older authros and writings on the topic, but in other ways it is a slippery and inconsistent rant, heavy on strawman building.
He spends a lot of time assailing "Afrocentrists" while attempting to minimize as much as possible the data showing the AEs were tropically adapted Africans. By 1999, when he wrote his book, he had the substantial cranial, limb proportion, cultural and even initial DNA data on file. He minimizes all, then in a veiled way, finally, grudgingly admits the truth when he has to deal with Keita's data.
Quote from page 132- after dozens of previous page rants and sly minimization (he is sure to mention Libyan and Nubian mercenaries, and Greek immigration, for example, and Eugene Strouhal's "5% negroes" claim, but somehow skips the substantial aforementioned cranial, limb, cultural and dna data).
Finally he admits it: [QUOTE:]
"No serious contemporary scholar, however, appears to doubt that the great bulk of the predynastic and Pharonic population was of indigenous African origin (see, for example, Hoffman 1991; Rice 1991)" --S. Howe (1999) Afrocentrism: mythical pasts and imagined homes. Verso. pg 132.
In his standard modus operandi of damming with either faint praise or obfuscation and omission, Howe's veiled confession above is quickly covered by noting the work of C. Loring brace 1993. He also tries to water down Keita's data, claiming that Keita said European Egyptology has over a long period page accepted the Egyptians as a mixed but largely African population. In fact, Keita said no such thing. Indeed, Keita notes the Aryan/Hamitic model and associated ideology in several of his works prior to 1999.
On page 133, Howe also claims that Keita and C.L Brace 93 are in "broad agreement". In fact they are not. Keita's research challenges several aspects of Brace's work, even before 1999. One can see the slipperiness of Howe. And while appearing to agree with Keita, he is sure to get in a slight dig at him- putting Keita's term Saharo-Tropical in ironic quotes.
Research since 1999 only confirms Keita's data.
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-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5939 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Originally posted by lioness: A possible definition of a Black person is a from brown skinned to nearly black brown skinned person who has primary ancestors that lived in Africa recently -no more than a few thousand years ago. The idea is that hair and facial features do not define what Black people are, only skin color and recent African ancestry.
What lioness conveniently and obtusely misses is a key scientific definition- namely tropical adaptations, such as elongated distal segments. No manner of semantic games can duck this reality.
And you notice she doesn't apply the same definition parameters to white people. How would you define white people? If skin color and recent geographic ancestry are the main parameters, as you claim, are white also people defined by white skin color and recent European ancestry? Why or why not?
And why are blacks only "brown" to "nearly dark brown?" That does not even fit standard dictionary definitions. How come they aren't light brown and jet black as well? Watch her duck and dodge now.. as she tries to wriggle away from her hypocritical double standard...
And she is always talking 'bout "mixed" races although curiously, the hypocrites usually shy away from the data by some conservative white scholars showing Europeans to be a "mixed" hybrid breed, whether in general:
Now why do said hypocrites duck and dodge when the data is applied the other way- even, steven?
Posts: 5939 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Hammered: There is nothing negro looking about the Armarna family. they could have all easily passed for relatives of yassr arafat,...
Why Yasser Arafat?? Is it because he looks like this:
Notice his features. How would you describe such features if not "negroid". Tell us professor, what in terms of features looks "negro" to you??
Dana, if you're seeing this I'm sure you know very well why Arabs like Arafat have such features. Posts: 26853 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Anyone have any info on Roman pyramids, such as that for one Caius Cestius as shown below? Some Romans also seem to have been avid early Egyptomania collectors per the book below as well.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5939 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Zemede: You can lead a pig to the water whole but you can not force it to drink.
I think that there is something fragile about the topic of the ancient egyptians. For europeans it was their idol for the greek culture and for africans it's the most popular culture that western people know when it comes to the contribution of african people to world history. Somebody told me that racism is actually a european invention and specially for the minority of african and afro american people who live abroad race and racism is a sensitive topic.
Nevertheless, the origin of the ancient egyptians was a mystery to the major discoverers because their are mostly arabic people living in egypt today... Incredibly every egyptian I talk to has no problem with ancient egyptians being habesha.
I agree that indigenous egyptian people are the ancestors of the ancient egyptians, but who were the ancestors of the ancient egyptians....this is what the whole story is all about... to me just looking at their face is enough to say they were habesha...but this arguments are nasty because some people who believed they were this unknown africans would be taken away a powerful source for their confidence...
As a matter of fact what has been written for many centuries about the origin and distribution of cultures seams to be wrong in the for front of my own research and especially in the foreground of the one and only brave european martin barnell.
I know european history very good and i have even read 5 books of aristotle and know exactly the origin of science.
The subject about the language, the ethnicity and culture of the ancient egyptian is for me nothing but a matter of curiosity in the first place and secondly a matter of image.
By the way eritrean and ethiopian history before the greeks is published as almost non existent
The most predictable strategy to deal with this subject of the origin and the ancient egyptians is by just referring to them as africans of all sorts.. A bit of here and a bit of their. Bejan, Berber and Indigenous... but everything has it's source...all life on earth has one core source.
It is easy and predictable to take the people of sudan and the indigenous people of egypt as the ancestors of ancient egyptian...
If the ancient egyptians were from Kenia or Negeria I would not care. I would say, yes the ancient egyptians were from Kenia and Negeria... (originally) but I haven't come across one evidence that they were from there...
The one and only reason I make this statement is not because I see similarities in some few elements of habesha culture and AE. The one and only reason why I am into this subject is because I can CONTRIBUTE (write this word please on the wall) to the discovery of the big question: who were the ancient egyptians and what language did they speak.
Habeshas have been a victim of prejudgement of other people. They have a rich culture that seemed to come from no where...
ATTENTION to all west africans who might take this personal. Habeshas and their culture are a phenomenon for themselves... If they think they are special doesn't mean they think other africans are not...
When it comes to who is qualified enough to CONTRIBUTE in the discovery of the origin of the AE?
Those who are their ancestors. It could be Egyptians and all neighbor countries.
I was lucky or even unlucky enough to relate to the phenomenon between Egypt and Eritrea and Ethiopia. I speak the language and know the culture.
The biggest problem is () that the sources available to most of us are FUNDAMENTALLY wrong.
First the origin of languages and writing is presented to us as it came from Mesopotamia and second almost all translation and EVEN the decoding of the hieroglyph is WRONG.
Look it up on wiki (the access to the avarage human knowledge). What do egyptologist say what's the meaning of Neferititi?
Beauty of Aten, the Beautiful one has come (This is your knowledge base lol)
Translated in: If I can't read it I just tell the world what I assume. I mean look at her she is beautiful and she has legs and can walk. There you go this is her name.
NO the decoding and translation of 90% of all hieroglyphs is wrong. Reasons for that can be found in the limitation of the alphabeth. The different system of writting of the alphabeth. The non-knowing of underestimated languages like tigrigna. For someone who can speak tigrigna - the statement tigrigna being the origin of arabic is not surprising.
The woman Hitler was in love with was called Nefeti = The Strenuous. You hear it everyday in Eritrea.
^^Hitler was in love with an Egyptian woman? Huh? If so it would indeed be a new "dimension" for white obsession with Egypt. Zemede several of your statements above do not appear accurate. Are you saying der Fuhrer liked the historical figure of Nefertiti OR that he was in love with an ACTUAL real woman named Nefertiti?
Yes Hitler was in love with NEFETI. He had the original bust of her and gave fake copies to friends. The NEFETI Hitler was in love with was his secrete possesion. The bust you see here is the original one. I have designed it based on Hitlers original copy. Even nazis love habeshas. lol
Posts: 142 | Registered: Dec 2010
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So you are saying Nefertiti was a Tigrean? Why would Nazi guy Hitler pick a darker woman though as an object of obsession if what you say is true?
There is a black model called Nefertiti Shepherd on the web but she certainly could not be Habesha... Exactly how do you define who is Habesha or not? Posts: 5939 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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^ LOL Nice eyecandy by the way (though maybe inappropriate for any children viewing).
To Zemede. Akhenaten's queen is named Nefertiti not "Nefeti" with the root word nefer meaning beatiful or perfect. Is there not the same or similar word used in Eritrea & Ethiopia?
Posts: 26853 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: So you are saying Nefertiti was a Tigrean? Why would Nazi guy Hitler pick a darker woman though as an object of obsession if what you say is true?
There is a black model called Nefertiti Shepherd on the web but she certainly could not be Habesha... Exactly how do you define who is Habesha or not?
NEFRETITI was called NEFETI (The good one) Hitler would be in love because she was looking hot. He would give up his race theory for a bust like hers. He kept it secret. His copy of the original that I redesigned was looking white:
Even though Hitler shows Nefeti as white in Berlin she still looks habesha. I have a friend Feven who looks like her.
But Habeshas are confusing. They come in all skin tone. I believe you can see it at their lips and there eyes. Mostly at their thin legs.
Posts: 142 | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Zemede: NEFRETITI was called NEFETI (The good one) Hitler would be in love because she was looking hot. He would give up his race theory for a bust like hers. He kept it secret. His copy of the original that I redesigned was looking white:
Even though Hitler shows Nefeti as white in Berlin she still looks habesha. I have a friend Feven who looks like her.
But Habeshas are confusing. They come in all skin tone. I believe you can see it at their lips and there eyes. Mostly at their thin legs.
Actually the original color of Nefertiti's bust has been lost as was shown here. This is why Hitler and others try to claim her as a "tanned" skinned 'Aryan' white woman. By the way your close up photo of her above shows slight traces of original color mainly on the tip of the nose.
Posts: 26853 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Certainly der Fueher would not approve of the tropical Nefereri below.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5939 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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usually Egyptomania influences are taken to be in gubment buildings and monuments but the authors below say it is also seen in utilitarian construction such as bridges, reservoirs and aqueducts..
Posts: 5939 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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^ It's a shame that these same folks who are so impressed and want to emulate Egyptian works don't realize either out of plain ignorance or racist denial that such works are African.
Posts: 26853 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ It's a shame that these same folks who are so impressed and want to emulate Egyptian works don't realize either out of plain ignorance or racist denial that such works are African.
I wonder what would happen to Egyptology as a discipline and Egyptomania among the general public if Egypt's Africanity were more widely acknowledged. I have a feeling that a lot of what we don't know about ancient Egypt stems from viewing it in the wrong context. To deny Egypt's Africanity is to take it out of context, and you need to view things in their whole context to fully understand them. If we knew more about African culture, perhaps we'll find the keys to a lot of the mysteries surrounding Egypt.
Posts: 7433 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5939 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: I wonder what would happen to Egyptology as a discipline and Egyptomania among the general public if Egypt's Africanity were more widely acknowledged. I have a feeling that a lot of what we don't know about ancient Egypt stems from viewing it in the wrong context. To deny Egypt's Africanity is to take it out of context, and you need to view things in their whole context to fully understand them. If we knew more about African culture, perhaps we'll find the keys to a lot of the mysteries surrounding Egypt.
I have been saying the same thing for years now. Unfortunately there are only a few Egyptologists out of many who try to study ancient Egypt in its proper African context.
Posts: 26853 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan: The book below details how whites have been obsessed with ancient Egypt thru the centuries, from Greece all the way down to present.
jacket blurb “Consuming Ancient Egypt examines the influence of Ancient Egypt on the everyday lives of people, of all ages, throughout the world. It looks at the Egypt which the tourist sees, Egypt in film and Egypt as the inspiration for opera. It asks why so many books are published each year on Egyptological subjects at all levels, from the austerely academic to the riotous celebrations of Egypt as a land of mystery, enchantment and fantasy.
It then considers the ways in which Ancient Egypt interacts with the living world, in architecture, museum-going, the acquisition of souvenirs and reproductions, design, and the perpetual appeal of the mummy. The significance of Egypt as an adjunct to (and frequently the subject of) marketing in the consumer society is examined. It reveals much about Egypt's immemorial appeal and the psychology of those who succumb to its magnetism.”.
From: -- Consuming Ancient Egypt, 2003, By Sally MacDonald, and Michael Rice.
Another book notes:
quote
"Roman emperors built Egyptian gardens in their palaces. Cults based on Egyptian gods and godesses spread throughout the empire. The goddess Isis, for example, was worshipped from England to Afghanistan. Later medieval popes constructed obelisks that mimicked those of the pharaohs. Medieval doctors ground up mummies and fed them to patients in the mistaken belief that these well preserved bodies had supernational healing powers.
In the 19th century, Egyptian influence became fashionable in design and the arts. Jewelry, furniture, and an assortment of decorative objects and accents pieces were adorned with designs and images that conjured thoughts of life along the Nile. Egyptian themed (and or at least tinged) operas, plays and novels were a hit with the general public.
It seemed that the more that was revealed about ancient Egypt, the more appetite for faux relics and representations grew in America and throughout Europe. The discovery of King Tutankhamen's tomb in the early 20th century sparked yet another round of Egyptomania."
From: --Ancient Egypt: From Prehistory to the Islamic Conquest. By Educational Britannica Educational 2010
What a silly notion. Egypt was a prodigious nation with a very ancient past. That it should have held a fascination for many in the old world is not surprising. But to lump classical cultures with the Western culture of Today and call it a "White thing" is just plain ludicrous. Of course behind this is theAfrocentric assumption that Egyptians were all Black and Whites deep down inside have always been in awe of the Black man, etc Lol! First of all the Greeks and Romans didn't even have the same concept of race as we do today. There was no pan Euroepan White identity. And more importantly they viewed Egyptinas as a distinct group. Not necessarily the same as Sub Sharan Africans. Here are some quotes.. Arrian (86 - 146 AD), Indica 6.9, quoting Megasthenes (350 - 290 BC):
"The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia: the southern Indians are rather more like Ethiopians as they are black to look on, and their hair is black; only they are not so snub-nosed or woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians physically."
Strabo (64 BC - AD 24), Geography 15.1.13:
"As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in colour, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Aegyptians."
Marcus Manilius (1st century AD), Astronomica 4.724:
"The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it it a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone."
Also anyone who has been on the internet can see it's the afrocentric who are constantly ranting about how the Egypt was part of their heritage etc.
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