posted The ancestors of Perseus and Heracles (Heracles). Source: Edith Hamilton. Mythology: Timeless Tales of Gods and Heroes. New York: Mentor, 1940. ISBN: 0451628039.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Ethiopia was originally the Greek name for Canaan which was founded by Cepheus who is brother of Aegyptus, founder of Egypt, and Danaus, founder of Libya (the country). All were sons of Belos [the son of Poseidon and the goddess Libya (Africa)] and Achiroe [daughter of Nilos, the god of the Nile river]. So even in Greek legends, they connect the Levant as well as Arabia with Africa!
alTakruri Member # 10195
posted
quote: * Andromeda (Greek mythology): in Greek mythology, beautiful daughter of King Cepheus and Queen Cassiope of Joppa in Palestine (called Ethiopia) and wife of Perseus.
from Encyclopædia Britannica Online
Djehuti Member # 6698
posted
^ This is why before I found out about the original use of the word 'Ethiopia', I was confused about the location of Joppa.
alTakruri Member # 10195
posted
'salright. We two have gone over this a few times already.
I think we covered Hebrew Kush equaling Greek Aithiopia and Canaan being a "son of Kush" approximating Joppa as one of the Aithiopias, India as another one (though Hebrew literature has nothing about an "India son of Kush").
What about Memnon (of Trojan War fame)'s Aithiopia?
Levant, Mesopotamia, India? ??? What's your take?
Djehuti Member # 6698
posted
^ Hard to say. There were so many places identified as 'Kush' from Africa, south Arabia, to even north Arabia and the Levant. According to the research of David Goldenberg as shown in his book The Curse of Ham, the 'Kushites' whom the Israelites were most familiar with were a people that lived in an area that stretched from the southern Levant in the northern Negev all the way south into northwest Arabia. These were the Cushim/Kushite people associated with Simeon's territory as well as being allied with Israel and serving as mercenaries. These were the people of Zerah, and it is very likely if not certain that this was the people of Moses' 'Kushite' wife Zipporah. The Land of Midian itself was poetically described synonymously as Land of Kush. I have heard the argument that the matriarch of the Midianites and sibling peoples, Keturah was a queen or leader of these northern Kushites. Of course if one were of the notion that Hagar and Keturah were the same person, it would make little difference overall. As such, I see it as no stretch of the imagination that the territory of these northern Kushites would be associated with or closely tied to the Canaanites just north. I believe Memnon had to fit in here somewhere.
alTakruri Member # 10195
posted
Right from the start, in the first book of the Torah, the land of Kush is connected with the river Gihon perhaps the Nile per Josephus and if so then that establishes it in Africa.
Probably the most stirring and somewhat lengthy account of Kush is undoubtedly of the nation who, per Hansberry, named themselves Qevs supplying Egyptic and Canaanitic their derivitive Kush.
quote: Ah, land of the buzzing of wings, which is beyond the rivers of Ethiopia; That sendeth ambassadors by the sea, even in vessels of papyrus upon the waters! Go, ye swift messengers, to a nation tall and of glossy skin, to a people terrible from their beginning onward; a nation that is sturdy and treadeth down, whose land the rivers divide!
All ye inhabitants of the world, and ye dwellers on the earth, when an ensign is lifted up on the mountains, see ye; and when the horn is blown, hear ye. For thus hath the LORD said unto me: I will hold Me still, and I will look on in My dwelling-place, like clear heat in sunshine, like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest. For before the harvest, when the blossom is over, and the bud becometh a ripening grape, He will cut off the sprigs with pruning-hooks, and the shoots will He take away and lop off. They shall be left together unto the ravenous birds of the mountains, and to the beasts of the earth; and the ravenous birds shall summer upon them, and all the beasts of the earth shall winter upon them.
In that time shall a present be brought unto the LORD of hosts of a people tall and of glossy skin, and from a people terrible from their beginning onward; a nation that is sturdy and treadeth down, whose land the rivers divide, to the place of the name of the LORD of hosts, the mount Zion.
Y*sha`yahu (Isaiah) chapter 18
Getting back to the Gihon, there was a spring in Judah bearing that name but the Israelites never called their land Kush. However we do find a Judaean-Aethiopian tie-in in the Histories (c.70CE) of the Roman Tacitus
quote: Many, again, say that they were a race of Ethiopian origin, who in the time of king Cepheus were driven by fear and hatred of their neighbours to seek a new dwelling-place.
Tacitus spends more ink on Judaeans as Egyptians and it's interesting that a Roman centurion IDed Paul as Egyptian.
Zerah is probably the Arabic title Zirrih (magnificent) and we can find Kushites and Arabians coupled in Psalm 72:10, II Chronicles 21:16 and especially Isaiah 43:3. Habakkuk 3:7 groups a Kushan with Midian. My thought is that these are not lands of Kush but peoples who are as black as peoples in the land of Kush. The prophet Zephaniah was definitely a Judahite yet his father's name was the gentilic Kushi due most likely to his complexion because, possibly, Gedaliah married a Kushitess.
Brada-Anansi Member # 16371
posted
Lets not forget Hebrew high priest named Pheneas or as Bernal stated P3nahs or Nahasu And a real flesh and blood King of the delta named Phineas who ruled along side the Hyksos.
In Greek mythology, Phineas (also spelled Phineus, Φινεύς ) was a Phoenician King of Thrace. The name 'Phineas' or 'Phineus' may be associated with the ancient city of Phinea (or Phineopolis) on the Thracian Bosphorus. Some ancient writers recognize two Thracian kings by the name of Phineas/Phineus/Phinehas. The first was a son of Agenor who, like his brothers Phoenix, Cadmus, Thasus and Cilix, departed his Phoenician homeland in search of his sister Europa, who had been abducted by the god Zeus. Phineas gave up his search in Thrace, and settled on the western shores of the Black Sea in eastern Thrace. This Phineas was the father of Thynus, Bithynus, Mariandynus and Paphlagonus, although the first two were his sons by adoption, their father being a certain Odrysus. These four men founded four kingdoms along the shores of the Black Sea - Thynia, Bithynia, Mariandyne, and Paphlagonia - but are otherwise unheard of. The second (and much more famous) Phineas lived several generations later, although his genealogical connection to the first Phineas is unclear. This second Phineas features in the story of Jason and the Argonauts, and was married to Cleopatra, daughter of Boreas. Phineas and Cleopatra had two sons, named Plexippus and Pandion, who were mistreated by their stepmother, Idaea, who Phineas married after the death of Cleopatra. His residence was the city of Salmydessus on the Black Sea. This Phineas was said to be a son of Poseidon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas Notice the connection to the blk sea home of the legendary black-skinned and woolly haired Colchians. And who was reported as being dominant in the area but the 12th dyn Kings Sesostris and Amenemhat..who came from extreme Upper Kemet,and again according to Bernal Memnon could well be a corruption of Amenemhat.
Apocalypse Member # 8587
posted
^ I intended to post the same Brada. You beat me to the punch.
Bernal states that in later antiquity Aethiopia began to be exclusively identified with Africa. He also points out that confusion regarding Memnon's provenance (African Aethiopia versus Middle Eastern Aethiopia) began very early in antiquity. Although it should be added that the oldest traditions surrounding Memnon attributes to him very black skin and tightly curled hair. However, Bernal believes that the name Memnon actually is Egyptian - Amenemhat (Ammenemes) as Brada pointed out. Other evidence of a possible Egyptian provenance for Memnon includes the Colossi of Memnon (Amenhotep) in Thebes which like the mythical Memnon is linked with dawn because of the strange sound it made at sunrise. Bernal discounted the possibility of an identification of Amenhotep with Memnon because of phonetic difficulties.
Very interestingly he wrote this:
quote:Tombs of Memnon were reported in the Troad and at Paltos in Syria where they were associated with black birds called Memnoides. These were supposed to have been girl companions of the hero, whose laments so moved the gods that they were changed into birds. On the level of natural history, their congregation around his tomb in the Troad represented the annual migrations from Central Africa about which Greeks since Homer appear to have been aware. On the mythical plane, this closely resembles the stories of Isis and Nephthys mourning for Osiris and their metamorphosis into birds.
This represents another association of Memnon with Africa.
alTakruri Member # 10195
posted
The Greek mythos can be rather involved. At times they are mythology explaining nature, at other times legends detailing persons and place names.
On the mythology tip, the majority of writers and the earliest of writers assign Eos (the dawn) as Memnon's mother. I don't know about the Greek but in Hebrew shahhariyth is dawn and shahhor is black. The Greeks make black Memnon the son of Dawn.
Continuing the mythological line, Zeus put Memnon and Achilles on the scales and the balance tipped toward Memnon. After Achilles slays Memnon Eos cries for her slain son daily. The morning dew is said to be her tears.
What very interesting is that to arrive at Troy Memnon starts out from Sudan traversing Egypt to get to Susa and amass 100,000 more troops doubling his army now composed of eastern and western Aithiopians.
The mythos has revealed its legendary side and goes on to attempt reason for Memnon's intervention. Does it propose familial for political relationship as cause for alliance by Elam (a stand in for Persia?) against Greece.
So Tithonus and Priam are made brothers (possibly hinting at a co-vassal status of Elam and Troy to Persia) with a mutual armistice pact. Later, the historians introduce one Kissia as Memnon's mother. Cissia was a Persian province and was where Susa the Elamite capital stood.
Now of course this is all garbled up, anachronistic, with names misplaced. But that's what mythology does when [misre]presenting everything in the guise of a good tale.
Did the mythographers confuse or purposely meld the memory of two distinct Memnons into one?
Apocalypse Member # 8587
posted
alTakruri wrote:
quote:Did the mythographers confuse or purposely meld the memory of two distinct Memnons into one?
Excellent question. I don't think that the melding was purposeful. According to Bernal the melding may have been the result of confusion by the Greeks of two distinct regional figures with somewhat similar names: From Elam a god named Humban, Umman or Amman; and from Egypt Ammenemes. Although he contends that the name, Memnon probably derives from Egyptian.
quote:What very interesting is that to arrive at Troy Memnon starts out from Sudan traversing Egypt to get to Susa and amass 100,000 more troops doubling his army now composed of eastern and western Aithiopians.
Very interesting. Taharka's march from the Sudan occurs long after the first attestation of the legend of Memnon. Is it possible that Ethiopia, if the legends pertains to Ammenemes, was a reference to Upper Egypt?
the lioness Member # 17353
posted
If I'm not mistaken there was a point when The classical Greeks referred to the whole of Africa as Libya although they may have had no knowledge of the overall dimension and furthest boundaries of Africa
alTakruri Member # 10195
posted
There was a Memnon who erected one of the 7 Wonders of the World,
quote:The palace of Cyrus the King in Ecbatana, which Memnon made, of many colored and shining white stones bound with gold.
according to Hyginus' Fabuae written in the 1st cent CE.
quote:Originally posted by Apocalypse: According to Bernal the melding may have been the result of confusion by the Greeks of two distinct regional figures with somewhat similar names: From Elam a god named Humban, Umman or Amman; and from Egypt Ammenemes.
alTakruri Member # 10195
posted
Diodorus on the nature of mythology
quote: I am not unaware of the fact that those who compile the narratives of ancient mythology labour under many disadvantages in their composition. For, in the first place, the antiquity of the events they have to record, since it makes record difficult, is a cause of much perplexity to those who would compose an account of them; and again, inasmuch as
* any pronouncement they may make of the dates of events does not admit of the strictest kind of proof or disproof, a feeling of contempt for the narration is aroused in the mind of those who read it;
* furthermore, the variety and the multitude of the heroes, demi-gods, and men in general whose genealogies must be set down make their recital a difficult thing to achieve;
* but the greatest and most disconcerting obstacle of all consists in the fact that those who have recorded the deeds and myths of the earliest times are in disagreement among themselves.
For these reasons the writers of greatest reputation among the later historians have stood aloof from the narration of ancient mythology because of its difficulty, and have undertaken to record only the more recent events.
Diodorus did, however, go on to accept mythology as a form of ancient history.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The Greek mythos can be rather involved. At times they are mythology explaining nature, at other times legends detailing persons and place names.
dana marniche Member # 13149
posted
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Lets not forget Hebrew high priest named Pheneas or as Bernal stated P3nahs or Nahasu And a real flesh and blood King of the delta named Phineas who ruled along side the Hyksos.
In Greek mythology, Phineas (also spelled Phineus, Φινεύς ) was a Phoenician King of Thrace. The name 'Phineas' or 'Phineus' may be associated with the ancient city of Phinea (or Phineopolis) on the Thracian Bosphorus. Some ancient writers recognize two Thracian kings by the name of Phineas/Phineus/Phinehas. The first was a son of Agenor who, like his brothers Phoenix, Cadmus, Thasus and Cilix, departed his Phoenician homeland in search of his sister Europa, who had been abducted by the god Zeus. Phineas gave up his search in Thrace, and settled on the western shores of the Black Sea in eastern Thrace. This Phineas was the father of Thynus, Bithynus, Mariandynus and Paphlagonus, although the first two were his sons by adoption, their father being a certain Odrysus. These four men founded four kingdoms along the shores of the Black Sea - Thynia, Bithynia, Mariandyne, and Paphlagonia - but are otherwise unheard of. The second (and much more famous) Phineas lived several generations later, although his genealogical connection to the first Phineas is unclear. This second Phineas features in the story of Jason and the Argonauts, and was married to Cleopatra, daughter of Boreas. Phineas and Cleopatra had two sons, named Plexippus and Pandion, who were mistreated by their stepmother, Idaea, who Phineas married after the death of Cleopatra. His residence was the city of Salmydessus on the Black Sea. This Phineas was said to be a son of Poseidon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas Notice the connection to the blk sea home of the legendary black-skinned and woolly haired Colchians. And who was reported as being dominant in the area but the 12th dyn Kings Sesostris and Amenemhat..who came from extreme Upper Kemet,and again according to Bernal Memnon could well be a corruption of Amenemhat.
The names Cepheus/Cephus, Phinehas, and Epaphus are tied in Greek tradition and there is clearly a connection between the Kayi Kabus or Qabus and Siavush or Sievarshan of Indic and Iranian tradition as well.
But this is explainable in the African-Arabian or Ethiosemitic roots of the Hyksos-Canaanite and early Babylonian people who first moved east to colonize Persia.
Yafa is also the name of a town in Yemen and the former is probably associated with the modern Yafa or Yafi-Yahar tribes of Yemen and Somalia. Yafi is called son of Khasid or Chesed (known as Cassit in Arabic) in the Hebrew book of Jasher. From this name was Cassit as in the Central Arabian tribal name Banu Numayr ibn Cassit (Nimrod son of Cush, also called of Arfaxshad) and/or Khasdim (the Khaldeans).
The ancestors of the black or Proto-Cushitic i.e. Afro-Semitic people of southern and western Arabia (affiliated with people of the Horn) settled in Palestine during the Middle of the 2nd millenium BC well as in the bringing their names with them. The name Yahar is also found in early Mesopotamia as a clan and deity name. The name Yafa or Afa name means viper or female snake.
The story of Cepheus and the Cephenians and Cassyopia or Kasiyope and Yafa is also likely associated with that of Qabus, Asaf and Assiyah of Arabian tradition and Yaqub, Joseph and Asenath of the Bible. Asaf who was put on the throne of Misrah in the time of Rayan and Qabus the Amalekites (in Arabian tradition).
Cephus or Cepheus is thought to be related to a term for the North Pole. Certain modern astronomers connect the name of Cepheus with Kapi (the ape God i.e or Pole Star/apex). The name is said to represent Kaf or Kaph or Kawa divine mountain abode of the Gods representing the pole star. Kaveh or Kawa the deity of the mountain is called the smith among modern Kurds.
The brother of Cepheus/Cephus the "Ethiopian king" who is otherwise designated in Arabic Fikaus (or Kikaus and Phicares meaning fire-kindler) is sometimes identified as Epaphus (as with St. Isidore) or is otherwise the "brother of Epaphus" in certain traditions. Herodotus gives the name Kephenianss to the early Persians while Hellenicus says was in fact Kephen or Cephen was the name for the Chaldeans of Babylon who set out from Babylon and occupied the land that was called Persia. (see Rethinking the Other in Antiquity, Erich Gruen, 2010, p. 256 on Hellanicus).
In ancient Iran his name was Kay Kavus, Kabus or Kay Ka'ush. Cephus or Kikaus or Phicares of the Greeks and Phoenicians is thus the Kayi Kavus of Iran. He is Kaush Melukh (king Kush) in Assyria and finally Indic texts Kavi Usha. in modern Kurdic legend he is Kawa or Kaveh the smith deity associated with the divine mountain of "Kaf".
In Indic legends Kavi Usha or Ushana he has to do with metal smiths and fire and making of bolts and weapons for Indra. He has the son Siavarshan signified by “the black horse” of the Sun and thus a representation of the Sun- God but also is possibly a storm deity the Zaphon or Baal Zafan (or Typhon) of “semitic” or Hyksos-Canaanite tradition. The ancient Lucas says Ziphon became Typhon who became associated with a donkey's head.
In semitic tradition the allegory of Yusef makes him a man on an ass/donkey. In Armenia and Chwaresmia this Siavarshan was called Siev or Sievarkush. The early Armenian patriarch John said that Sievordik or Savartek a people of the Caucasus got their name from their ancestor Sieva son of Kush. Obviously there is some connection to the name Seva and Kush of the Bible. Not surprisingly he also said that the word Sevartek (Sephardik) meant "the black sons". Does this suggest the word Sephardik,Swarte Seva have the same root and a connection - something burnt with fire.
Thus the name of Cepheus or Cephus is an early form of King Kaush and is etymologically related to words that mean smith-metallurgist one who uses fire and lives in the north pole. He appears to be the root of the Santa Claus myth.
In Indic legends Kavi Usha or Ushana he has to do with metal smiths and fire and making of bolts and weapons for Indra. He has the son Siavarshan signified by “the black horse” of the Sun and thus a representation of the Sun- God is possibly the Zaphon or Baal Zafan (or Typhon) of “semitic” or Hyksos-Canaanite tradition.
In semitic tradition the allegory of Yusef makes him a man on an ass/donkey. In Armenia and Chwaresmia this Siavarshan was called Siev or Sievara. The early Armenian Patriarch John said that Sievordik or Savartek a people of the Caucasus got their name from their ancestor Sieva son of Kush. Obviously there is some connection to the name Seva and Kush of the Bible. Not surprisingly he also said that the word Sevartek (Sephardik) meant the black sons. Does this suggest the word Sephardik,Swarte, Seva have the same root and a connection - something burnt with fire.
The story of Cepheus and Cassyopia is also likely associated with that of Jacob, Asaf and Assiyah or Asenath of Arabian tradition. In the Iranian story Kay Kavush or Kabus and Sievash their is a seduction by Sudabeh or Sauda daughter of the king of Hamavaran (acknowledged by most scholars as land of Himyar). In Arabian tradition Sauda is daughter of the ruler Akk. Potiphar's wife tries to seduce Joseph in the Bible.
Phinehas in one part of the Bible the brother of Hophni a name probably connected to Hanifah/ Khanafir modern Central and South Arabian tribe of the Mahra now found among the Dawasir. These were people who incidently named their villages Ham and Hakam being agriculturalists. Another Phinehas is son of Eleazar the priest. Phinehas is also said to be son of Eleazar the priest a son of Harun or Amran brother of Moses who is linked in Arabian genealogy to the ancestral Azd people of Marib.
The name and allegory of Cephus/Kapi is thus not unrelated to Joseph and his donkey which is the black horse Siavash of Indian and Iranian tales.
All this makes it likely that this mythology was brought up to Syria by the Soleym bin Mansur (Manasseh) or Suwaleim tribes whom are called Solymi by the Romans like Tacitus who are also equated with "Eastern Ethiopians" by Choerilus other writers and "spoke a Phoenician like" dialect. The ancestor of the Soleym known as Khasafa probably also has some link to the name of Asaf (Joseph) and his father Kab or Qabus. Note that Yaqub -El is cited as a name on one of the Hyksos scarabs as is Apachnas or Apophis I and II. Are these names not the precursors to Cephen and Epaphus.
...both Choerilus's Solymi and Herodotus's Eastern Ethiopians both wore hides of horses on their heads." p. 192 Jew and Gentile in the Ancient World by Louis Feldman, 1996. "Others pretend their origin to be more immanent, and that the Solymi, a people celebrated in Homer's poems were the founders of this nation, and gave their own name Hierosolyma to the city which they built there." Tacitus, History of the Jews, Book V.2.
Thus the black tribes of the harrah extending into Syria known as Solymi or Soleym were among the Ethiopians of the ancient writers and very likely ancestral to the Eastern Ethiopians of India. Their connection with the name Pisidia is undoubtedly related to that of Poseidon and its usage for ancient Somalia. (See Huntingford's Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, 1980.)
The Soleym or Banu Sulaym of Hijaz are an example of the people who brought the Semitic names to Palestine. The genealogy or ancestry of these tribes "is given as Sulaym b. Mansur b. 'Ikrima b. Khasafa b. Kays Aylan..." Encyclopaedic ethnography of Middle-East and Central Asia: A-I, Volume 1 edited by R. Khanam, p. 720. The name of Khasafa here has link to Asaf.
"From Banu Sulaim ibn Mansoor were descended Ra’l, Zakwan, ‘Asiyyah ibn Khuyfaf ibn Imri’ Al- Qais ibn Buhthah ibn Sulaim and Za’b ibn Malik ibn Khufaf ibn Imri’ Al- Qais ibn Buhthah ibn Sulaim …” The name Bodhi here appears connected with Pothi'phar, while Khufaf sounds similar to Epaphus. Mansoor otherwise Manasse'ir is undoubtedly Manasseh son of Joseph.
The brother of Khasafa in Arabian tradition is Ghatafan who gave birth to the tribes of Assiyeh (whom Tabari 9th c. calls "the Israelite woman") and Rahil/Rukhayla (Rachel?) and Ghatafan or Ghutayf (Hatepha). Their South Arabian Azd ancestors were said to have fought against the people already in control of Misrah i.e. "the Amalekites" near Mecca under Moses (Muzaikiyya) and Aaron. These people are all considered black in early Arab and Kuranic commentary.
The black Syrians still living in the times of the early Greeks included the Phoenicians (Fenikes), the Solymi of Pisidia(Beishat) and the Taurus and Lycia, Savara/Sevardik, Keftiu (Kizzuwatna of Cilicia and Tunip), Philistines (descendants of the Anakim), the original Lud (or El Aoud) and Mashek or Mescians to name a few, and these are likely responsible for the semitic or Ethiopian names of the Syrian Phoenicia/Canaan as well as the Gods of Greek and Indo- Iranic mythology.
The descendants of such people in Arabia as in the Wadi Beish or Bisha, Jizzan, Jordan, Sinai, and Central and Western and Southern Arabia and still resemble their African ancestors and/or "the Ethiopians". The name Fenikha is still a village in the Wadi Beish region of Southern Saudi Arabia according to Kamal Salibi.
posted
Thanks Dena a lot of new info I never come across before, the Greeks weren't kidding when they said the annals of the world is filled with the glory and deeds of the Ethiopians.
KING Member # 9422
posted
Man People,
I was hoping on seeing people just enjoying themselves and not hung up about race and Color Issues like in Sudan.
Thanks Dana for the video, It really opened my eyes to see Black People enjoying themselves without the hangups about race. More vidoes like these need to be posted.....You just hope people like Spiralman and Simple can learn to overcome there hatred of Black People and see the beauty of Unity and Love.
Peace
dana marniche Member # 13149
posted
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Thanks Dena a lot of new info I never come across before, the Greeks weren't kidding when they said the annals of the world is filled with the glory and deeds of the Ethiopians.
Your welcome Brada and Agreed!
dana marniche Member # 13149
posted
quote:Originally posted by KING: Man People,
I was hoping on seeing people just enjoying themselves and not hung up about race and Color Issues like in Sudan.
Thanks Dana for the video, It really opened my eyes to see Black People enjoying themselves without the hangups about race. More vidoes like these need to be posted.....You just hope people like Spiralman and Simple can learn to overcome there hatred of Black People and see the beauty of Unity and Love.
Peace
Peace and Happy New Year as well. Thanks King and I'm glad you appreciated the video. Yes - these guys probably don't know about all of the raucous going on about them and in fact that they are probably among the most controversial people in history being for the most part Blacks, Arabs, Semites and Canaanites all at the same time.lol!
Tukuler Member # 19944
posted
... with a nod to TypeZeiss who wanted something other than I've posted in various Cepheus/Joppa related threads here over the past five years.
typeZeiss Member # 18859
posted
Thank you sir!
Djehuti Member # 6698
posted
I have more on this issue coming soon in another thread.
dana marniche Member # 13149
posted
All four of the name of the Gihon, Pishon Tigris and Euphrates have been identified in both east Africa and in south Arabia by Kamal Salibi as well as Mesopotamia by various people.
The name Yafa or Jaffa could also refer to the southern Arabian Himyaritic Yafa where certain clans of the Yafa tribe are still black in appearance and where the early Phoenicians originated..
The allegorical of Cepheus who is the Persian Kai Kavus (and Nilotic Hapi) and Casseiyopeia (a Queen like Cepheus in Abyssinian royal chronology) is clearly related to that of the Hebrew story of Joseph (Zafnath) and Asenath and to Asaf and Assiya of Asir in Arabia and Sauda bint Akk of Arabia or Sudabeh. This story of Yusef is likely related to that of Sievus or Sevardik (Sabtechah)in Central Asian mythology who is tempted by Sudabeh and largely based on astronomical knowledge of the Pleiades.
It is probable that these astronomically-based stories started somewhere in East Africa and were brought northward with the movements of the Kena'aniya (Pheonikes/Amalekites as Josephus calls them) from the Yemen or Wadh Kenawna in the Eritrean Sea region many of these stories that spread into Syria were then likely in the time of the Hyksos spread across the Mediterranean, Aegean and then northeastward into the regions of the Caucasus and Medea.
Hence the later Armenian stories of Sevardik or Siev(from which the term Sephardic) being the son of Kush (Kai Kavus or King Kaush).
Djehuti Member # 6698
posted
^ It's funny you mention this since in a book I've discovered recently called 'Aethiopes, blacks in Greco-Roman Literature' (not the one by Sowden but by a female white author), the author cites Greek writings showing that Ethiopia comprised both sides of the Red Sea-- East Africa and Arabia both. Like you Dana, she even suggest the possibility that the kingdom of Jaffa may have originally been on or the other coastlines of the Red Sea.
zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova Member # 15718
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Djehuti said: ^ Hard to say. There were so many places identified as 'Kush' from Africa, south Arabia, to even north Arabia and the Levant. According to the research of David Goldenberg as shown in his book The curse of Ham, the 'Kushites' whom the Israelites were most familiar with were a people that lived in an area that stretched from the southern Levant in the northern Negev all the way south into northwest Arabia. These were the Cushim/Kushite people associated with Simeon's territory as well as being allied with Israel and serving as mercenaries. These were the people of Zerah, and it very likely if not certain that this was the people of Moses' 'Kushite' wife Zipporah. The Land of Midian itself was poetically described synonymously as Land of Kush. I have heard the argument that the matriarch of the Midianites and sibling peoples, Keturah was a queen or leader of these northern Kushites. Of course if one were of the notion that Hagar and Keturah were the same person, it would make little difference overall. As such, I see it as no stretch of the imagination that the territory of these northern Kushites would be associated with or closely tied to the Canaanites just north. I believe Memnon had to fit in here somewhere.
Quite possibly, but the Sudanic based Kush, with an overlap into the Arabian Peninsula is still a strong possibility. The problem with GOldenberg's Midian theory is that the Midianites in the Bible are accounted as descendants of Shem- Abraham's line, through Keturah. Moses also specifically lists the Kushites as in the Hamitic line, not that of Shem. Furthermore the incident in Numbers 13 does not necessarily refer to Zipporah of Midian. Race may not have been primarily involved but female-driven jealously. If Moses had taken ANOTHER wife, the Kushite, besides his original Midianitess Zipporah, this might well have sparked female resentment & anger through Miriam. In Numbers 13, the leprosy struck Miriam specifically, indicating she was the main instigator of the attack on Moses, even though it is recorded that BOTH Aaron and Miriam spoke against Moses- Miriam was singled out for quite visible punishment. So the presence of another woman, perhaps a more attractive or amenable Kushite woman, supplanting Zipporah the Midianitess, is in context a valid alternative interpretation, and indeed is an interpretation maintained by several Biblical scholars which Goldenberg footnotes.
GOldenberg cites Habbukuk 3: 7 as associating Cush with Midian: I saw the tents of Cushan in affliction; The curtains of the land of Midian did tremble.
But this is a parallel religious commentary on the nature of affliction or the fearful dread of peoples in a wide area, under dread of an impending judgement by the divine, not a population/ ancestral link of any sort. Other commentators point to 'Cushan' as referring to CHushan-rishahthaim, the first oppressor/opponent of the Israelite in the tine of the Judges.
Ezekiel 30 links Cush, Put, CHub "and all the mingled peoples" in association with Egypt, against strengthening the Sudanic link: Cush - Egypt.
And the sword shall come upon Egypt, and there shall be anguish in Ethiopia, when the slain shall fall in Egypt, and they shall take away her multitude, and her foundations shall be overthrown.
Cush, and Phut, and Lud, and all the mingled people, and Chub, and the children of the land that is in league, shall fall with them by the sword. --Ezekiel 30: 4-5
Lud is a descendant of Ham thru Mizraim, and Phut a direct descendant of Ham. None of the above of course negates the point that 'Cush" takes in a wide geographic area, and includes part of the Middle East. SOme Biblical writers mentioned by Goldberg seem anxious to dissociate "Cush" from Africa, perhaps to duck early rabbinic racism that all too often argued for dark sin as a fount of and reward for evil- hence the bogus "Curse Of Ham," - a "curse" that appears nowhere in the Bible.
zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova Member # 15718
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edit: dark skin as the fount of and result of..
Djehuti Member # 6698
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Quite possibly, but the Sudanic based Kush, with an overlap into the Arabian Peninsula is still a strong possibility. The problem with GOldenberg's Midian theory is that the Midianites in the Bible are accounted as descendants of Shem- Abraham's line, through Keturah. Moses also specifically lists the Kushites as in the Hamitic line, not that of Shem...
Of course the line is Shemite if traced through the father--Abraham. The Bible is completely silent in regards to Keturah's parentage and ancestry. We know Sarah who was Abraham's half-sister through their father was Shemite. Hagar was definitely Hamite as she was described as Egyptian and even daughter of pharaoh no less. Keturah is a mystery unless we go with the theory that she was Hagar. There were some early commentators and scholars who suggested she was Japhethite based on the argument that Abraham married a wife from each division-- Shem, Ham, and Japhethite. Yet nowhere in the text is this mentioned and on the contrary the Midianites and sibling peoples location as well as appearance suggest a 'Hamitic' ancestry at least in part for Keturah.
quote:...Furthermore the incident in Numbers 13 does not necessarily refer to Zipporah of Midian. Race may not have been primarily involved but female-driven jealously. If Moses had taken ANOTHER wife, the Kushite, besides his original Midianitess Zipporah, this might well have sparked female resentment & anger through Miriam. In Numbers 13, the leprosy struck Miriam specifically, indicating she was the main instigator of the attack on Moses, even though it is recorded that BOTH Aaron and Miriam spoke against Moses- Miriam was singled out for quite visible punishment. So the presence of another woman, perhaps a more attractive or amenable Kushite woman, supplanting Zipporah the Midianitess, is in context a valid alternative interpretation, and indeed is an interpretation maintained by several Biblical scholars which Goldenberg footnotes.
Yes I have heard the theory that Moses may have had two consorts like Abraham before him, and there are even stories suggesting he may have married a Kushite (as in Sudanic) wife as a Prince of Egypt before he fled to Sinai. However, there is nothing in the texts that suggests a second wife. It merely says Miriam spoke out against his Kushite wife. Again, this all depends on what is meant by 'Kushite' here. Goldberg suggests Kushite was synonymous with Cushim people of Midian.
quote:GOldenberg cites Habbukuk 3: 7 as associating Cush with Midian: I saw the tents of Cushan in affliction; The curtains of the land of Midian did tremble.
But this is a parallel religious commentary on the nature of affliction or the fearful dread of peoples in a wide area, under dread of an impending judgement by the divine, not a population/ ancestral link of any sort. Other commentators point to 'Cushan' as referring to CHushan-rishahthaim, the first oppressor/opponent of the Israelite in the tine of the Judges.
I get this, but what of the 'Song of Songs' where the Shulamite bride compares her blackness with the tents of Kedar and curtains of Solomon? Kedar was a tribe descended from one of Ishmael's sons who also were described as black themselves along with the black goat fur tents. Ishmael if you recall though of Shemite lineage via his father Abraham married a woman from his mother's people (Egyptian).
quote:Ezekiel 30 links Cush, Put, CHub "and all the mingled peoples" in association with Egypt, against strengthening the Sudanic link: Cush - Egypt.
And the sword shall come upon Egypt, and there shall be anguish in Ethiopia, when the slain shall fall in Egypt, and they shall take away her multitude, and her foundations shall be overthrown.
Cush, and Phut, and Lud, and all the mingled people, and Chub, and the children of the land that is in league, shall fall with them by the sword. --Ezekiel 30: 4-5
Lud is a descendant of Ham thru Mizraim, and Phut a direct descendant of Ham. None of the above of course negates the point that 'Cush" takes in a wide geographic area, and includes part of the Middle East. SOme Biblical writers mentioned by Goldberg seem anxious to dissociate "Cush" from Africa, perhaps to duck early rabbinic racism that all too often argued for dark sin as a fount of and reward for evil- hence the bogus "Curse Of Ham," - a "curse" that appears nowhere in the Bible.
Correct. The association of dark skin with curses was a later addition or distortion by European Jews as explained by Takruri and Dana. And yes all of Ham's children were associated with each other, though Cush's identity need not be restricted to Africa proper.
dana marniche Member # 13149
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ It's funny you mention this since in a book I've discovered recently called 'Aethiopes, blacks in Greco-Roman Literature' (not the one by Sowden but by a female white author), the author cites Greek writings showing that Ethiopia comprised both sides of the Red Sea-- East Africa and Arabia both. Like you Dana, she even suggest the possibility that the kingdom of Jaffa may have originally been on or the other coastlines of the Red Sea.
Djehuti thanks for letting us know about this book. Will check into it.
I wonder has anybody bought Black Athena: New Agendas published this year?
Djehuti Member # 6698
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^ The exact title of the book is The Ethiopian in Greek and Roman Civilization by Grace Maynard Hadley Beardsley, first published in 1922.
I checked it out from the library and I must say it is VERY interesting read. I should note that the author Beardsley herself points out the significant presence and role Ethiopians had in the 'Classical' world and in Classical history and literature, though she makes a distinction between the Ethiopian type and what the science of her time calls the "true negro" type which was more rare in the Classical world. LOL Of course We know that there is no such thing as a 'true negro' anymore than there was a 'true blanco' Caucasian. So putting aside the debunked racial science, it appears black Africans figured quite well in Greco-Roman writings and history.
Byron Bumper Member # 19992
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BEEP BEEP SCREECH KISS CUSS
typeZeiss Member # 18859
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ The exact title of the book is The Ethiopian in Greek and Roman Civilization by Grace Maynard Hadley Beardsley, first published in 1922.
I checked it out from the library and I must say it is VERY interesting read. I should note that the author Beardsley herself points out the significant presence and role Ethiopians had in the 'Classical' world and in Classical history and literature, though she makes a distinction between the Ethiopian type and what the science of her time calls the "true negro" type which was more rare in the Classical world. LOL Of course We know that there is no such thing as a 'true negro' anymore than there was a 'true blanco' Caucasian. So putting aside the debunked racial science, it appears black Africans figured quite well in Greco-Roman writings and history.
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Remember Beardsley's book is the one DuBois groaned about and that Snowden rose to the occasion to replace due to its caricatured early 20th century negro stereotype interpretation of the art pieces and society that produced them.
typeZeiss Member # 18859
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Tukuler
What book did DuBois make mention of Beardsley's work in and what book did Snowden rise to the occasion in? Just asking so I can go get them.
Fusion muchly reminds me Sanish&Potuguese nusahh in its rhythmic complexity mostly non-melodic sound.
Tukuler Member # 19944
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Bumped again as a reminder of the Levant's eastern Aithiopia.
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In Greek myth Belus (Beluchistan, N Arabian Sea) is seat of origin of Argos, Lower Egypt, and South Canaan peoples in the general E Mediterranean. Belus in turn is a son of Africa (Libya).
How's that for for the misnomer "back migration"?
AGs also give Phoenicians an origin from the selfame or abutted region of SW Asia proper.
Tukuler Member # 19944
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repost: More on Memnon son of Eos
The Greek mythos can be rather involved. At times they are mythology explaining nature, at other times legends detailing persons and place names.
On the mythology tip, the majority of writers and the earliest of writers assign Eos (the dawn) as Memnon's mother. I don't know about the Greek but in Hebrew shahhariyth is dawn and shahhor is black. The Greeks make black Memnon the son of Dawn.
Continuing the mythological line, Zeus put Memnon and Achilles on the scales and the balance tipped toward Memnon. After Achilles slays Memnon Eos cries for her slain son daily. The morning dew is said to be her tears.
What very interesting is that to arrive at Troy Memnon starts out from Sudan traversing Egypt to get to Susa and amass 100,000 more troops doubling his army now composed of eastern and western Aithiopians.
The mythos has revealed its legendary side and goes on to attempt reason for Memnon's intervention. Does it propose familial for political relationship as cause for alliance by Elam (a stand in for Persia?) against Greece.
So Tithonus and Priam are made brothers (possibly hinting at a co-vassal status of Elam and Troy to Persia) with a mutual armistice pact. Later, the historians introduce one Kissia as Memnon's mother. Cissia was a Persian province and was where Susa the Elamite capital stood.
Now of course this is all garbled up, anachronistic, with names misplaced. But that's what mythology does when [misre]presenting everything in the guise of a good tale.
Did the mythographers confuse or purposely meld the memory of two distinct Memnons into one?
Djehuti Member # 6698
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^ As discussed before people often give a Greek etymology for the name 'Aethiopia' meaning "burnt face", though this is likely a secondary interpretation based entirely on a non-Greek foreign word whose original form much less etymology is lost. What is certain is that the name is used denote a νότιο έθνος (nótio éthnos) that is a southern nation whose inhabitants are presumed to be dark-skinned. As to what region this nation was in regards to Memnon is unclear, however you do provide an interesting clue that his mother was the goddess of dawn Eos, who always hails from the east. The Babylonian word for dawn by the way is 'Aya' which sounds phonetically similar to Eos. Therefore, it can be inferred that Memnon's 'Aethiopia' somewhere 'south and east'. I also find it interesting that Greek sources identify his home as Susa which again is southeast of Hellas (Greece) as well as the fact that after Memnon's death by Achilles his body was sent to an island in the southeast likely in the Persian Gulf similar to how Achilles body was sent to an island in the northeast in the Pontus (Black Sea).
I'll have to look into what relations Elam had with western Anatolia if indeed the Greek epics are accurate.
By the way, Memnon's story is told in more detail in the Aethiopis which is a lost Greek epic that was part of the Trojan War Cycle. The story of the Aethiopis comes chronologically immediately after that of the Homeric Iliad, and is followed by that of the Little Iliad. The Aethiopis was sometimes attributed by ancient writers to Arctinus of Miletus (8th century BC) (see Cyclic poets). The poem comprised five books of verse in dactylic hexameter.
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