posted
From my studies thus far on Km.t and the Nile Valley, I believe the story of "Ham" the idea of the Table of Nations etc. somehow was influence from or originated in Ancient Egypt
1. The Youngest Son of Noah: The youngest son of Noah, from whom sprang the western and southwestern nations known to the Hebrews. His name first occurs in Genesis 5:32, where, as in 6:10 and elsewhere, it occupies the second place. In Genesis 9:18 Ham is described as "the father of Canaan".
2. Ham as a Nationality (30 Nations came out of Ham): The name given, in Psalms 105:23,17; 106:22 (compare 78:51), to Egypt as a descendant of Ham, son of Noah. As Shem means "dusky," or the like, and Japheth "fair," it has been supposed that Ham meant, as is not improbable, "black." This is supported by the evidence of Hebrew and Arabic, in which the word chamam means "to be hot" and "to be black," the latter signification being derived from the former.
It is interesting to note that the Biblical record defines Egypt as the Land of Ham. -- Psalm 105: 23 "Israel also came into Egypt...the land of Ham."
3. Meaning of the Word: That Ham is connected with the native name of Egypt, Kem, or, in full pa ta' en Kem, "the land of Egypt," in Bashmurian Coptic Kheme, is unlikely, as this form is probably of a much later date than the composition of Gen, and, moreover, as the Arabic shows, the guttural is not a true kh, but the hard breathing h, which are both represented by the Hebrew cheth.
4. The Nations Descending from Ham: First on the list, as being the darkest, is Cush or Ethiopia (Genesis 10:6), after which comes Mitsrayim, or Egypt, then PuT or Libyia, and Canaan last. The sons or descendants of each of these are then taken in turn, and it is noteworthy that some of them, like the Ethiopians and the Canaanites, spoke Semitic, and not Hamitic, languages--Seba (if connected with the Sabeans), Havilah (Yemen), and Sheba, whose queen visited Solomon. Professor Sayce, moreover, has pointed out that Caphtor is the original home of the Phoenicians, who spoke a Semitic language.
The explanation of this probably is that other tongues were forced upon these nationalities in consequence of their migrations, or because they fell under the dominion of nationalities alien to them. The non-Sem Babylonians, described as descendants of Nimrod (Merodach), as is well known, spoke Sumerian, and adopted Semitic Babylonian only on account of mingling with the Semites whom they found there.
Another explanation is that the nationalities described as Hamitic--a parallel to those of the Semitic section--were so called because they fell under Egyptian dominion. This would make the original Hamitic race to have been Egyptian and account for Ham as a (poetical) designation of that nationality. Professor F. L. Griffith has pointed out that the Egyptian Priapic god of Panopolis (Akhmim), sometimes called Menu, but also apparently known as Khem, may have been identified with the ancestor of the Hamitic race--he was worshipped from the coast of the Red Sea to Coptos, and must have been well known to Egypt's eastern neighbors. He regards the characteristics of Menu as being in accord with the shamelessness of Ham as recorded in Genesis 9:20.
4. Four Sons of Ham (see map below): 1. Mizraim (Egypt) 2. Cush (Sudan, Ethiopia) 3. Put (Lybia) 4. Canaan (Hivites, Jebusites, Arvadites, Girgashites, Amorites, Arkites, Sinites, Hittites, Sidonians, Perizzites, Zemarites)
The Hamites in Km.t
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Jari
Read your posts and will reply later. I was thinking of some of the things you bring up but didn't post it but will do so now
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I've disconfirmed - the speaker in Shiyr haShiriym 5:1 being anything other than an Israel. - Miriam as a racist toward Moses' wife. She actually acted in her defense. - Cush not applicable to Israels. Three Israels are named Kush in TN"K.
Comparing and contrasting looks of Israels and Israels Iraqi migrant ancestors up to Moses' time shows the first three generations -- 1 - Abraham & Sarah, 2 - Yisshaq & Ribqah, 3 - Ya`aqob & Leah, Rahhel, Bilhhah, and Zilpah were all members of a blood related extended family.
Sarah was noted for a light complexion foreign to native Egyptians. Yosef, son of Ya`aqob & Rahhel, was oddly indistinguishable from native Egyptians in the eyesight of his own same father siblings. Moses was mistaken for native Egyptian by some Midyani women.
Apparently there is overlap between the looks of b*nei Shem Israels and b*nei Hham Egyptians in the timeframe under consideration. This leads credence to the midrashic account of Shem blessed with black beauty and Hham blessed with raven blackness. Looks like there's a cline including some members of either designation.
Red was used by the Egyptians to distinguish non-Nile Valley peoples from themselves as black, along with Sudanis. Yet, internally, blacks label their lighter elements as red. The best example being Fulani, well noted as redmen by surrounding Africans. Among Bororo a black complexion stands out and may draw jeers where not expected. This is true of all black peoples where raven blackness is not the norm. Only a non-black has never witnessed this behavior. Even whites jeer a too white complexion among themselves.
The four groups of humankind exemplared in the Book of Gates are all paralleled in Genesis where they are all b*nei Hham.
Romitu = Missrayim -- generally coloured red-brown Aamu = K*na`an -- generally coloured amber-brown Nehesu = Kush -- generally coloured sooty-black Tamehu = Phut -- generally coloured beige-white.
In caveat, Aamu could be any easterner so that a Genesis ben Shem national can and does stand in most BG 4:5s30 illustrations, the ones in Seti I's tomb (shown above) being Canaanites, i.e, b*nei Hham.
To recap, Kushiym were superlatives as the yardstick for blacks because the darkest complexions, dark-chocolate, grey-brown, and blue-black, were theirs whether of Africa (Sudan) or Asia (Arabian Peninsula to India).
Nonetheless Egypt was recognized as black with its, on average, red-brown population. Occasionally Egyptian art depicts Aamu in darker than amber-brown tones. The art of Mesopotamian nations often colours people red-brown and sometimes even more dark than that, i.e., Elam(ites), the firstborn son(s) of Shem.
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Mizraim or Egypt was the second son of Ham, as noted in the list of nations in Genesis 10 and 1Chronicles 1. He was also known as Menes or Min, the first king of the Egyptians who reigned for about 60 years, according to the historians Manetho and Herodotus.
Genesis 10:1,6 These are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth; sons were born to them after the flood. … 6 The sons of Ham: Cush, Egypt [Mizraim: KJV], Put, and Canaan. (RSV)
Mizraim is derived from a Hebrew term, and is a plural word with the meaning double straits (SHD 4714, mitsrayim - dual of matsor (4693)). This duality may refer to the distinction between the original kingdoms of Upper and Lower Egypt. The Egyptians referred to their land as Kmt in the hieroglyphs.
In Assyrian and Babylonian inscriptions Egypt was known as [/b]Musur and Musri,[/b] probably from the word Misr meaning simply, land. The Ugaritic inscriptions refer to Egypt as Msrm, while in the Amarna tablets it is called Misri. The term Misr is still seen in the modern Arabic name for the nation, Jumhuriyah Misr al-'Arabiyah (the Arabic Republic of Egypt). Our term Egypt comes from the Greek Aiguptos.
Sons of Mizraim
In Genesis 10:13-14 and 1Chronicles 1:11-12, Mizraim’s “sons” are listed as tribal groups rather than individuals: the Ludim, Anamim, Lehabim, Naphtuhim, Pathrusim, Casluhim (forefathers of the Philistines), and Caphtorim.
Ludim
Although there is a Semite of the same name, we find that Lud, grandson of Ham, was father of the Ludim. He was also the first-born of Mizraim. The Hebrew word is ludiyiy (SHD 3866), meaning to the firebrands: travailings (BDB). (The descendants of Lud, the fourth son of Shem, were supposedly the Lydians.)
In Ge 10:13 Ludim appears as the firstborn of Mizraim (Egypt), and in 10:22 Lud is the fourth son of Shem. We have therefore to do with two different nationalities bearing the same name, and not always easy to distinguish. …
In Isa 66:19 Lud is mentioned with Tarshish and Pul (generally regarded as a mistake for Phut), Tubal, Javan, and the isles. Accepting this emendation, the passage agrees with Jer 46:9, where the Ludim are spoken of with Kush and Phut as the allies of Egypt; and also with Eze 27:10, where Lud is referred to with Persia and Put as soldiers of Tyre.
Lud, again, is mentioned with Ethiopia (Cush), Put, all the mingled people, Cab, and the children of the land which is in league (or, margin "the land of the covenant"), which were all to fall by the sword (Eze 30:5). …
The existence of Lud in the neighborhood of Egypt as well as in Asia Minor finds parallels in the Syrian Mucri of the Assyrian inscriptions by the side of the Mucur which stood for Egypt, and still more in the Cappadocian Cush (Kusu) of certain Assyrian letters relating to horses, by the side of the Cush (Kusu likewise) which stands for Ethiopia.
Everything points, therefore, to the Semitic Lud and Ludim being Lydia, and the identification may be regarded as satisfactory. It is altogether otherwise with the Egyptian Lud and Ludim, however, about which little can be said at present. The reference to a city which seems to be Putu-yawan in an inscription mentioning the 37th year of Nebuchadrezzar, and apparently referring to an expedition against Amasis, though it may stand for "Grecian Phut," has very little bearing upon the position of the Egyptian Lud, especially as the text in which it occurs is very mutilated. One thing is certain, however: the Hebrews regarded this Lud and Ludim as being Hamitic, and not Semitic.
The reference in Isaiah 66:19 seems to locate the land of Lud in the Mediterranean, whilst Jeremiah (46:9) and Ezekiel (27:10; 30:5) place it squarely in Africa. The likelihood is that it is in North Africa on the Mediterranean shores.
Is Ludim Perhaps Siwa??
* Ludim Ludim Ludim is the Hebrew term for Lydia used in Jeremiah and Ezekiel. In the Biblical Table of Nations they were said to descend from Lud, son of Shem, son of Noah. According to Josephus, their land was destroyed....
, offspring of Mizraim. Sometimes considered a scribal error for Lubim, a reference to the Lebou of Eastern Libya.
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The second son of Mizraim has a name meaning affliction of the waters (anamiym, SHD 6047), and apparently derives from an Egyptian word. The Septuagint uses the term Enemetiim.
An Assyrian text from the time of Sargon II refers to certain people as Anami, although they were apparently located in Cyrene, Libya as Albright suggests and which the Interpreter’s Dictionary article (Vol. 1, p. 124) says is most likely. Albright (A Colony of Cretan Mercenaries on the Coast of the Negeb, JPOS, 1 (1921), pp. 191-2) equates them with the cuneiform A-na-mi found in a geographical text from the time of Sargon II and parallel to Kapara, who were the Caphtorim.
Little else is known of this tribe.
Lehabim
The term Lehabim (SHD 3853; sing. 3851) means flames or blades. It has been suggested that these people ought to be identified with the Lubim, arising from the proposal that “the one word may be a corruption of the other” (ISBE). The name Lubim is possibly the same as that of the country, Libya, to the northwest of Egypt. Lambdin (Interp. Dict., Vol. 3, p. 110) is of the same opinion.
It is probably that the term Lybios as a son of Mizraim refers to the Ludim and the Lehabim who were conjoined, as were two other sons of Mizraim in North Africa, thereby forming the Philistines and also the Thebans (see above).
Naphtuhim
As the fourth of the tribes descended from Mizraim, the Naphtuhim have a name which means openings (SHD 5320, naphtuchiym), and is considered a word of foreign origin. The Septuagint gives their name as Nephthalim.
The ISBE entry for this group reads:
A son of Mizraim (Ge 10:13; 1Ch 1:11); but, according to most modern authorities, a district or a dependency of Egypt. Among the many efforts at identification the following deserve notice: Naphtuhim equals (1) Nephthys (Nephthus) in the Northeast of Egypt; (2) Na-ptah, i.e. the people of Ptah, the dwellers in the neighborhood of Memphis; (3) Nathu (according to Herodotus, Natho), which occurs in Assurbanipal’s Annals as the name of a part of Lower Egypt; (4) Erman (ZATW, X, 118), by the change of a letter, reads Petemhim, which signifies "The Northland"; (5) Spiegelberg sees in the word an old designation of the Delta, and would therefore render the name, [b]"the people of the Delta"[/i] (compare Johns, HDB; Skinner and Holzinger on Genesis).
Brown-Driver-Briggs also suggests that the Naphtuhim were located in Lower Egypt, and a connection has been made with Na-Ptah, the Egyptian word for Memphis. Lambdin in his article (Interp. Dict., Vol. 3, p. 510) places the Naphtuhim between the Lehabim (which are identified with the Libyans) and the Pathrusim as inhabitants of Upper Egypt, and hence they are inhabitants of the Delta. He holds that W. Spielberg’s rendering of Napthuhim is the Egyptian na-patoh-+-im, where the Egyptian is a plausible but conjectured late form for “those of the delta.”Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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The Pathrusim (SHD 6625, meaning southerners) were a tribe located at Pathros near Thebes in Upper Egypt.The name Pathros means region of the south (6624), possibly from the Egyptian Pa-To-Ris. The LXX refers to the people as the Patrosoniim.
In the apocryphal Book of Jasher, both the Pathrusim and Casluhim were recorded as the progenitors of the Pelishtim, Azathim, Gerarim, Githim, and Ekronim, who were associated with several prominent Philistine cities, such as Gerar, Gath and Ekron.
The conclusions must be that if they did conjoin it was by branches. The main branch went south to Thebes while the cadet branch joined the Cashluhim and formed the five Philistine cities and hence also the five names in Jasher.
The Hebrew Pathros and the gentilic Pathrusim are derived from the Egyptian p’’-t’’-rsy, which is a term used to designate the whole of Egypt above Memphis.
In the Assyrian material Esarhaddon refers to himself as the king of Musur, Paturisi, and Kusi, meaning, from Isaiah 11:11, that Musur and the Hebrew Misrayim was restricted to Middle and Lower Egypt, thus leaving Pathros for the Thebaid.
Jeremiah 44:1,15, Ezekiel 29:14 and 30:14 refer to Pathros as the original home of the Egyptians. The gentilic Pathrusim occurs only in Genesis 10:14 and 1Chronicles 1:12.
asluhim
This “son” of Mizraim was the forefather of one of the more notable of the tribes, namely the Philistines (see below). The name Casluhim (SHD 3695, kasluchiym) means fortified and is of foreign derivation. The brief entry for these people in the ISBE reads:
Casluhim—an unknown people—or, according to Septuagint, of the Casmanim, which would mean "shavers of the head"—a custom of the Phoenicians (forbidden to Hebrews as a rule), as known from a picture of the time of Thothmes III in the 16th century BC.
These people were associated with the Capthorim (below) and lived with them on Crete and possibly in Asia Minor. However, they are asserted to have come from Caphtor, which was understood as Crete. They settled on the seacoast of what became known as Palestine, from the term Philistine.
Caphtorim
The term Caphtorim means crowns (SHD 3732, kaphtoriy) from Caphtor (3731), as “the original home of the Philistines, perhaps on the southwest coast of Asia Minor, maybe in Egypt or close by, or more probably on the island of Crete” (BDB). They are called Gapthoriim in the Septuagint.
Capthor first appears in the Akkadian texts as Kaptara, where it was described as beyond the Upper Sea and within the sphere of influence of Sargon of Akkad.[/b References to Kaptara are found in 18th-century BCE Mari economic archives and in texts in both Akkadian and Ugaritic in Ugarit where it is kptr (Greenfield, art. 'Capthor', Interp. Dict., Vol. 1, p. 534).
The Egyptians refer to a place as Keftiu (kftyw or kftiw) from what Egyptologists date as 2200 down to 1200 BCE. Egyptologists generally accept that keftiu is the Egyptian form of Kaftara/Caphtor and it is clear from all contexts that it is Crete that is being mentioned. Egypt had commercial relations with them from 2200 BCE, on their chronology, which we will deal with in the Appendix (No. 45F) regarding the dynasties and the time-frames.
It has been suggested that this tribe was in fact a son of the Casluhim (and thus a grandson of Mizraim) as with the Philistines. The ISBE provides several theories on the identity of this group, the first one considered the most likely.
1. First Theory: Crete:
The country and people whence came the Philistines (Ge 10:14 =1Ch 1:12 (here the clause "whence went forth the Philistines" should, probably come after Caphtorim); De 2:23; Jer 47:4; Am 9:7). Jer (loc. cit.) calls it an "island"; there is evidence of ancient connection between Crete and Philistia; and the Philistines are called Cherethites, which may mean Cretans …. These considerations have led many to identify Caphtor with the important island of Crete. It should be noted, however, that the word ‘i, used by Jeremiah, denotes not only "isle," but also "coastland."
2. Second Theory: Phoenicia:
Ebers (Aegypten und die Bucher Moses, 130 ff) thought that Caphtor represented the Egyptian Kaft-ur, holding that Kaft was the Egyptian name for the colonies of Phoenicians in the Delta, extended to cover the Phoenicians in the north and their colonies.Kaft-ur, therefore, would mean "Greater Phoenicia."[/b] But the discovery of Kaptar among the names of countries conquered by Ptolemy Auletes in an inscription on the Temple of Kom Ombo is fatal to this theory.
3. Third Theory: Cilicia:
A third theory would identify Caphtor with the Kafto of the Egyptian inscriptions. As early as the time of Thotmes III the inhabitants of this land, the Kafti, are mentioned in the records. In the trilingual inscription of Canopus the name is rendered in Greek by Phoinike, "Phoenicia." This seems to be an error, as the Kafti portrayed on the monuments have no features in common with the Semites. They certainly represent a western type.
However, as we see above, the reference texts make clear it is Crete that is being mentioned; but we have to accept that the Ancient Sea Kings had an expansive trade system and they may well have had colonies in various places. The separation of the Casluhim and the Capthorim may well have been a deliberate decision of colonisation due to space for the two tribes.
Summary of the Sons of Misriyam..________________________________________
Ludim-Mediterrainian Egyptian Tribe, Possibly Siwa or Lebou Tribe.
Anamim-????
Lehabim-Another Tribe associated with the Med. area possibly joined with Ludim
Napthalim/Nepthuhim-Delta Egyptians and Lower Egyptians.(Memphis)
Caphtorim, Caphtor-Crete, Phonecia, possible both..
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Cush is the first son of Ham in the list of Seventy Nations recorded in both Genesis 10 and 1Chronicles 1.
Genesis 10:6 The sons of Ham: Cush, Egypt, Put, and Canaan. (RSV)
In his Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus records the progeny of Noah and the locations of the tribes descended from these sons. As with most other writers, he equates Noah’s grandson Cush with the Ethiopians.
The children of Ham possessed the land from Syria and Amanus, and the mountains of Libanus; seizing upon all that was on its sea-coasts, and as far as the ocean, and keeping it as their own. Some indeed of its names are utterly vanished away; others of them being changed, and another sound given them, are hardly to be discovered; yet a few there are which have kept their denominations entire. For of the four sons of Ham, time has not at all hurt the name of Chus [Cush]; for the Ethiopians, over whom he reigned, are even at this day, both by themselves and by all men in Asia, called Chusites. (Bk. I, vi, 2)
The descendants of the patriarch Cush and their dispersion to various locations throughout the world will now be investigated.
Characteristics of the Cushites
Perhaps the most obvious characteristic of this group of the sons of Cush in Ethiopia, and also sub-Saharan Africa, is that they are black-skinned, hence the patronym Cush (kush, SHD 3568), meaning simply black.
In Jeremiah 13:23, the rhetorical question is posed: “Can the Cushite change his skin or the leopard his spots?” This would indicate a marked difference in skin colour between the Israelites and the sons of Cush. The mention of a leopard here is interesting in that it is probably the most widespread of all the big cats, found throughout Africa, Asia Minor, India, China and Siberia – a diversity that seems to closely parallel the descendants of Cush and the Hamitic peoples in general.
In the early New Testament era, we see an important official of Queen Candace or Kandake (possibly the historical Queen Gersamot Hendeke VII) being visited by Philip in preparation for his baptism. He is referred to in Greek as an Aithiops, meaning literally scorched face, from which comes the generic term Ethiopian (Acts 8:27).
The warlike nature of the Cushites or Ethiopians is alluded to in 2Kings 19:9, where King Tirhakah of Ethiopia is seen hastening to attack Sennacherib’s army when Jerusalem was under threat (see also Isa. 37:9; 2Chr. 12:3; 16:8). Perhaps they were acting as mercenaries in the defence of Judah, or perhaps as allies stemming from the early alliance that resulted from the Queen of Sheba’s visit to Solomon from Yemen, when she had dominion over the lands on both sides of the Red Sea.
The Assyrians called the Cushites Kashshi or Kusu, while the Egyptian inscriptions referred to them as Kesh.
The lands of Kish or Khus were in fact in the Middle East near Assyria and not in Ethiopia at all, and this has sometimes led to confusion. The sons of Cush are divided into Northern and Southern Cushites,
and by the time of Josephus the Northern Cushites had gone so far to the east they were in South, South-east, North-east and East Asia and Australia, and some were in the Americas.
The Southern Cushites developed the Haplogroup B by mutation and do not possess the link of M168 P9, which is common to all other sons of Noah except the other African group of Phut, which is Hg A. The basic C (termed CR) is also there in North-east Africa.
In a book called African Glory: The Story of Vanished Negro Civilizations, first published in 1954, J.C. Degraft-Johnson gives the history of northern Africa including Carthage, the Arab conquest, and the Moors, of whom she says: “The Conquest of Spain was an African conquest. They were Mohammedan Africans, not Arabs, who laid low the Gothic kingdom of Spain”.
Somewhat surprisingly, perhaps, history in the form of myth highlights at least one famous descendant of Cush. Under the title Mighty Memnon: The African Presence in Greek and Roman Mythology, Runoko Rashidi gives a perspective on one particular ‘mythical’ hero of Greece.
The fabled story of the ancient and stupendous African general and warrior-king Memnon and his display of courage and prowess at the Greek siege of Troy was one of the most widely circulated and celebrated epics in the annals of Greek and Roman mythology. Memnon, described as "black as ebony, and the handsomest man alive," is mentioned repeatedly in the works of such early writers as Hesiod, Ovid, Pindar, Diodorus Siculus, Strabo and Virgil.
Arctinus of Miletus composed an epic poem entitled Ethiopia in which Memnon was the leading figure. Quintus of Smyrna credits Memnon with "bringing the countless tribes of his people who live in Ethiopia, land of the black man," to Troy in support of its war against the hostile coalition of Greek city-states. It was written that: "Memnon came to help them. Memnon was lord over the dark Ethiopians, and the host he brought seemed infinite. The Trojans were delighted to see him in their city."
According to Homer, "To Troy no hero came of nobler line, Or if nobler, Memnon, it was thine." In more recent times (late in the nineteenth century), Dr. Rufus Lewis Perry pronounced that:
"The distinguished Cushite whom Homer calls Memnon came and went like a meteor in the galaxy of illustrious Ethiopian monarchs. But the poet in classic song and the historian in legendary tradition, have preserved enough of his brightness to indicate his rank and power among the contemporary potentates of the earth. He was king of the Ethiopians. He fought against the Greeks in the Trojan war; and after he had slain Antilochus, son of Nestor, was killed by Achilles."
Dr. Perry concluded that, "Through slain by Achilles, Memnon is so embalmed in verse and prose by Homer, Hesiod, Virgil and others, that his name will last as long as the writings of these imperishable authors."
SOURCES: The Cushite, by Rufus Lewis Perry; Ethiopia and Ethiopians as Seen by Classical Writers, by William Leo Hansberry. (retrieved from http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/runoko.html)
The time of which we speak is the fall of Troy in 1054 BCE, but the Cushites had long been in Africa at this time and were to split into diverse ethnic groups and two distinct YDNA Haplogroups.
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tha arab tradition does not claim jewish wordplay ham=hot or black and so on for the others. it is mentioned by ibn abaas:
quote:عن ابن عباس قال ولد لنوح سام وفي ولده بياض وأدمه وحام وفي ولده سواد وبياض قليل ويافث وفيهم الشقرة والحمرة
noah had sam and his progeny were black with light brown undertones and a pure black color, ham's progeny came out a pure black color and some were black skinned with light brown undertones, japeth progeny came out ruddy and whitish.
sounds similiar to: "...Shem was especially blessed black and beautiful, Ham was blessed black like the raven, and Yapheth was blessed white all over." - Pirke de Rabbi Eli
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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^ Arreubinsoni, what is the origin of the Arabic passage above? Is it based on a Hadith?? Also, what does the Quran or other early Islamic writings say about the Sons of Ham??
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To Jari, I disagree with that theory of 'Kem' or Ham identified with the god Min especially since that was shown to be refuted some time back in this forum.
I also disagree with the notion of identifying Nimrod's progenitor Kush with the Sumerian city-state of Kish, since Kish was only a city-state and not an actual land whose personification also seems to be closely related to Egypt and Libya. Here, I believe Dana's theory of an Arabian Kush to be the origin of Nimrod to be more accurate since Akkadian speakers originated in Arabia.
I am also very curious and interested in the Genesis passage that speaks of Misraim's offspring, particularly Caphtorim and Casluhim who begat the Phillistines.
As for the Greeks' label of 'Ethiopia', you are aware that the land they first applied it to was actually the Levant and not Africa proper. This makes me believe that the King Memnon who marshaled his forces in support of Troy probably came from the Levant. Speaking of Greek legends, there is the myth of the Danaids who settled the Argos. I often think this may have something to do with Caphtorim (Cretans) of the early Philistines.
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^ In all of their early myths and writings. I suggest you look up the Argive Legends. Ethiopia was originally the Greek name for Canaan which was founded by Cepheus who is brother of Aegyptus, founder of Egypt, and Danaus, founder of Libya (the country). All were sons of Belos [the son of Poseidon and the goddess Libya (Africa)] and Achiroe [daughter of Nilos, the god of the Nile river]. So even in Greek legends, they connect the Levant as well as Arabia with Africa!
quote:Originally posted by the lynass: Djehuti's crazy
Says the liar who pretends to be an African while writing nonsense about Africans.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I am also very curious and interested in the Genesis passage that speaks of Misraim's offspring, particularly Caphtorim and Casluhim who begat the Phillistines.
And old ES thread quotes Genesis 10:
"Mizraim begot the Ludim, and the Anamim, and the Lehabim, and the Naphtuhim. and the Pathrusim, and the Casluhim, out of whom came the Philistines, and the Caphtorim."
And also:
Jeremiah 46:9- "let the mighty men go forth: Cush and Phut that handle the shield, and the Ludim that handle the bow."
Isa 66:19 also refers to Pul or Put and Lud "that draw the bow."
Ludim is the plural of Lud which means firebrand" or "strife," suggestion of warlike peoples or conditions.
Could the "Ludim who handle the bow" possibly refer to the renowned archers of Ta Seti, the Medjay or various in the Sudanic area, since Lud descends from Mizraim (Egypt)? Not saying it is so, just speculating, for Moses, ties all these peoples together- Ham, Cush, Mizraim, Phut, Caanan... And if there were any "firebrands" in the Nile Valley it would be the "Nubians" who were sought out not only in Egypt but in other parts of the Near East for use as fighting mercenaries according to the Armana letters. Again, speculation, not a hard and fast fact..
If Lud descend form Mizraim, and Lud is renowned for the bow, then could it be argued then that Moses, who himself spent years in Egypt, had insight into the essential unity of the Nile Valley or Nilotic peoples? Diop himself pulls in Biblical evidence to refute some critics.
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^ I have read elsewhere that Ludim is perhaps a scribal error and that the original name may have been Lubim with a 'b'. If that is so then this corresponds to a Libyan tribe mentioned in Assyrian texts as dwelling on the outskirts of the western delta.
By the way, not only do Biblical texts point to a connection between all these 'Hamite' peoples but even Greek myths support it as well, as I have mentioned.
Posts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ In all of their early myths and writings. I suggest you look up the Argive Legends. Ethiopia was originally the Greek name for Canaan which was founded by Cepheus who is brother of Aegyptus, founder of Egypt, and Danaus, founder of Libya (the country). All were sons of Belos [the son of Poseidon and the goddess Libya (Africa)] and Achiroe [daughter of Nilos, the god of the Nile river]. So even in Greek legends, they connect the Levant as well as Arabia with Africa!
quote:Originally posted by the lynass: Djehuti's crazy
Says the liar who pretends to be an African while writing nonsense about Africans.
Thnx,
Do you extend these ascriptions of Ethiopia to the Hebrews as well, or both?
Is there a reason why the Greek account of Memnon's Elamite origins, should be revised?
Am I missing something?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Do you extend these ascriptions of Ethiopia to the Hebrews as well, or both?
Well Ethiopia was the name of the land. Hebrews inhabited that land so of course. I'm not saying they weren't black or they were, but definitely they had ties to the peoples there.
quote:Is there a reason why the Greek account of Memnon's Elamite origins, should be revised?
Am I missing something?
I'm the one missing something, since I am unfamiliar with the background and origins of Memnon myself. Is that what the Greek legends say he's from-- Elam??
Posts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Well Ethiopia was the name of the land. Hebrews inhabited that land so of course. I'm not saying they weren't black or they were, but definitely they had ties to the peoples there.
Going by, as you said, that Canaan was a interchangable with ''Ethiopia'', according to the Greeks, this may or may not have extended into Israelite days. Judging by Romans reminiscing about Ethiopians being ancestors of Judeans, there seems to have been other ancestry as well that acted as a diluting factor, according to Greco-Roman thought. If not, there would've been no need for Romans to opinionate the latter assertion, they would've stated it as fact.
Whatever the case was, did these connotations of Ethiopia stick during and after the rise of Israelite cities?
quote:I'm the one missing something, since I am unfamiliar with the background and origins of Memnon myself. Is that what the Greek legends say he's from-- Elam??
Yes, his father was conceived as both the founder of Susa, as well as being related (directly) to Troyan royalty. The same dynasty that was involved with the Trojan war, to be precise. Obviously, the dates are disparate. Susa is way older than the destruction of Troye, and Greek civilisation as a matter of fact, which is why I view their ascription of Troyan ancestry involved with the making of Elam with a grain of salt.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Kalonji: Going by, as you said, that Canaan was a interchangable with ''Ethiopia'', according to the Greeks, this may or may not have extended into Israelite days. Judging by Romans reminiscing about Ethiopians being ancestors of Judeans, there seems to have been other ancestry as well that acted as a diluting factor, according to Greco-Roman thought. If not, there would've been no need for Romans to opinionate the latter assertion, they would've stated it as fact.
Whatever the case was, did these connotations of Ethiopia stick during and after the rise of Israelite cities?
True. 'Aethiopia' was used for Canaan by the Greeks at first, but later the name was dropped in favor of Phoenicia instead.
quote:Yes, his father was conceived as both the founder of Susa, as well as being related (directly) to Troyan royalty. The same dynasty that was involved with the Trojan war, to be precise. Obviously, the dates are disparate. Susa is way older than the destruction of Troye, and Greek civilisation as a matter of fact, which is why I view their ascription of Troyan ancestry involved with the making of Elam with a grain of salt.
Can you cite me the source(s) documenting Memnon's lineage??
Posts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I didn't discern it via a particular source, its something I researched way back when I got interested in black history. Memnon's paternal ancestors were:
Laomedon Tithonus (Founder of Susa, brother of Priam) Memnon (Cousin of Paris and Hector, Nephew of Priam)
It's interesting to note that Priam was apparantly a historical character. He is attested to in Hittite texts, where he is called Piyama, and described as an insurgent. After this Piyama fella there is a mention of a Alexandru in later Hittite texts, which corresponds with the fact that Priam had a son called Alexandros (Paris).
I don't know how they were able to harmonize the two conflicting pieces of Memnon as the pitch black Ethiopian that they made him out to be, when they held at the same time that the Trojans were closely related to themselves, and that Tithonus was a migrant , coming from Troye. I've also read in a book dealing with the origins of the Elamites that his mother was supposed to be an Iranian women, implying that Memnon was a hybrid.
If someone could provide explanations/additional information, about Memnon's ancestry, it would be appreciated.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The Greek mythos can be rather involved. At times they are mythology explaining nature, at other times legends detailing persons and place names.
On the mythology tip, the majority of writers and the earliest of writers assign Eos (the dawn) as Memnon's mother. I don't know about the Greek but in Hebrew shahhariyth is dawn and shahhor is black. The Greeks make black Memnon the son of Dawn.
Continuing the mythological line, Zeus put Memnon and Achilles on the scales and the balance tipped toward Memnon. After Achilles slays Memnon Eos cries for her slain son daily. The morning dew is said to be her tears.
What very interesting is that to arrive at Troy Memnon starts out from Sudan traversing Egypt to get to Susa and amass 100,000 more troops doubling his army now composed of eastern and western Aithiopians.
The mythos has revealed its legendary side and goes on to attempt reason for Memnon's intervention. Does it propose familial for political relationship as cause for alliance by Elam (a stand in for Persia?) against Greece.
So Tithonus and Priam are made brothers (possibly hinting at a co-vassal status of Elam and Troy to Persia) with a mutual armistice pact. Later, the historians introduce one Kissia as Memnon's mother. Cissia was a Persian province and was where Susa the Elamite capital stood.
Now of course this is all garbled up, anachronistic, with names misplaced. But that's what mythology does when [misre]presenting everything in the guise of a good tale.
Did the mythographers confuse or purposely meld the memory of two distinct Memnons into one?
Posts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:^ Arreubinsoni, what is the origin of the Arabic passage above? Is it based on a Hadith??
tafsir qurtubi by imam al-qurtubi, tabiqaat ul-kubraa part 1 vol 1 by imaam ibn s'ad, and tarikh at-tabari,tarikh rusul wal muluk, tarikh tabari all by imaam tabari. They are not hadith in the meaning that they can be traced back to the prophet muhammad(saw) they are the preceeding stattment is traced to his cousin ibn abbaas who is one of the scholars of the companions of the prophet.
quote:Also, what does the Quran or other early Islamic writings say about the Sons of Ham??
as far as the quraan then the sons of ham are included in the verse : وجعلنا ذريته هم الباقين we made his descendants(noah upon him peace)the remaining(people). the islamic writing if you are talking from the point of view of islamic text then there are none. if you are talking from the point of view of opinions of scholars then there is dissitation but not consensus due mainly to israeliyaat(jewish stories) after the death of the prophet it was allowed for the muslims to narrate what they heared from the jews as long as it did not contradict the quraan and what the prophet said. all that actually agreed with the quraan and hadith was to be believed however there were stories that did neither and there was no coroborating text, therefore they were mentioned but not commented on until further notice. this is how the curse of ham crept in. due to the immense amount of jews and christians converting to islam alot of their stories and traditions were narrated and as time took hold became almost doctrinal. thia is why you find lots of refutational books from al-jahiz, as-suyuti of egypt, and aj-jawzi. the curse of ham or caanaan is babylonian-jewish in nature for it is talmudic and that is where the sanhedrin doctrine took form giving credance to groups like the masons, kkk, mormons, and other witch craft groups who have similiar creeds. the curse of ham being one of them. ibn khaldun dismissed the jewish story for what it was which was a lie. read the muqaddimah. the arabs actually have their own griots which talk on the children of ham and no curse is mentioned at all. the arabs are the one who say that the children of ham are the original inhabitants of egypt and that their original home was iraq in babylon, palestine towards lower egypt from there they spread more westward. a good read is al-insaab by sahaari.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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^ I remember reading an Arabic passage months ago; it was probably from Al-Insaab since it mentions that the Shemites originated from a country to the north of Babylon and when the Shemites began migrating south and reached Babylon, they found the Sons of Ham already living there. The passage then goes on to say there was some kind of conflict with the Sons of Ham so they [the Shemites] had to move farther south.
So what of peoples like the Arab al-Baida and the Arab al-Aribah/Qahtani??
Posts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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If we can loose the biblical B.S. that is an interesting puzzle.
When the Anatolians called Amorites (Hebrews, Arameans) reached Sumer, of course the Sumerians and Akkadians were already there.
After the Hammurabian dynasty was overthrown when the Hatti from Anatolia sacked Babylon, The Kassites took over.
Then in succession the Arameans, Elamites, and Assyrians attacked.
It was at this time of chaos and confusion, that the Sumerian Princes in the south re-asserted their independence. There followed the era known as the 2nd dynasty of the Sealand (or Chaldea, 1020–1000 B.C.) The "Sealand" or Chaldea, referrers to the southern coastal area of Sumer.
It is the Chaldeans that some call Arameans (Semites), but they were not Semites, they were Sumerians. When the dust settled, the Arameans were in Babylon.
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