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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :

who had the earliest writing?

Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :

Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :

^^^^^pretending the answer is obvious but in fact waiting to see what others will say and only then only commenting on who did or did not have the earliest writing

Posted by A Simple Girl (Member # 18316) on :

possibly.... old European script

Posted by TruthAndRights (Member # 17346) on :

quote:
Originally posted by A Simple Girl:
possibly.... old European script

Is this person serious? bout "old European script" [Roll Eyes]

....aaaaaaaahhhhh NO...

The earliest writing comes from Africa... [Wink]

htp

Posted by A Simple Girl (Member # 18316) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TruthAndRights:

quote:
Originally posted by A Simple Girl:
possibly.... old European script
Is this person serious? bout "old European script"

....aaaaaaaahhhhh NO...

The earliest writing comes from Africa...

htp

Well you know what to do. Let's see the evidence.

Posted by StTigray (Member # 16910) on :

quote:
Originally posted by A Simple Girl:
possibly.... old European script

Wow!!!! European script? I would love to see any evidence supporting that, that would be interesting.

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :

You have asked a very interesting question. It is easy to answer the question if you only look at the historical evidence. The historical evidence, which is based off textual material would support the view that the first writing system was developed in Africa and would be the Thinite script.

The thing that complicates this equation is cuneiform. It is clear that when the Sumerians arrive in Mesopotamia they were using the the Thinite inspired Proto-Sumerian writing and the Elamites used linear Elamite. But we soon see a transition to the cuneiform writing.

This suggest to me that cuneiform was probably in use in Mesopotamia before the Sumerians came on the scene. It is my opinion that cuneirform was invented by the Anu along with Egyptian hieroglyphics. This would explain why we see in Egypt the use of Hieroglyphic writing in Egypt, along with Hieratic and Demotic, which were syllabic system. I believe that the Anu used perishable material to record their writing while the Proto-Saharans preferred to use stone. The Sumerians probably introduced the engraving of cuneiform in stone.

Recently Edwin van den Brink provides a detailed discussion of pot marks dating to the Thinite period from Lower and Upper Egypt. There is continuity between these signs from the Thinite period through Dynaties O and I down to the Saharan/Libyco-Berber rock inscriptions and Vai Syllabary.

Writing systems among African people were mainly devised for two purposes. Firstly, to help merchants keep records on the business venture they made. Secondly, the Proto-Saharan script was also used to preserve religious doctrines or write obituaries.The scarcity of documents, written for historical preservation among ancient African groups resulted from the fact that the keeping of history, was usually left in the hands of traditional (oral) historians. These historians memorized the histories of their nation and people for future recitation before members of their respective communities. This oral history was often accompanied by music or delivered in poetic verse and remains the premier source for the history of most African nations even today.It is obvious that the first inscriptions were engraved in stone by the Proto-Saharans , or a stylus was used to engrave wet clay (Winters 1985b).

Writing was invented by the Proto=Saharans.

See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBb-sBoR0ts&feature=related

The Proto-Saharans were called Ta-Seti and Tehunu by the Egyptians. In the archaeological literature they were called A-Group and C-Group respectively. Farid (1985, p.82) noted that:We can notice that at the beginning of the neolithic stage in Egypt on the edge of the Western Desert corresponds with expansion of the Saharian Neolithic culture and the growth of its population .The Fertile Saharan Crescent is an arc shaped series of highland regions in the Saharan zone of Africa. The Saharan zone is bounded on the north by the Atlas mountains, the Atlantic Ocean in the West, the tropical rain forest in the south and the Red Sea in the East.

The Proto-Saharans or Kushites used similar terms for writing. In general the term for writing was formed by the labial stops /p/ and /b/. For example:

code:

Dravidian par 'write'

Manding bo, bu 'make a stroke', sebe 'write'

Elamite tipu 'to write'Galla tafa 'to write'

There are also other corresponding terms for 'mark', or 'draw' that begin with velar stops:
Dravidian kiri, kuri 'write, draw, mark'

code:

Egyptian hti 'carve'

Manding kiri, kiti 'mark'

In Egyptian we have several terms for write Ø ss #, Ø zs # , and Ø ssw #. During the Old Kingdom writing was referred to as Ø iht # .The Egyptian term for writing Ø ssw # is analogous to the Mande terms Ø sewe # or Ø sebe # 'writing, trace, design'.

In Dravidian among other terms we have rasu 'write', and shu 'writing' in Sumerian. The Egyptian term Ø zs # is also closely related to Sumerian Ø shu #.

The use of the stylus or stick to engrave clay is most evident in the pottery marks found on the pottery excavated at many ancient sites which possess similar symbols impressed on the pottery.This view is supported by the fact that the term for writing in Dravidian and Egyptian include the consonants /l/, /r/ or /d/.A "u", is usually attached to the initial consonants (Winters 1985b).

code:

For example:
Sumerian ru, shu

Elamite talu

Dravidian carru

Egyptian drf

These terms agree with the Manding terms for excavate or hollow out Ø du #, Ø do #, Ø kulu #, Ø tura #, etc. The Sumerian term for writing was Ø du #.

This show that the Proto-Saharan term for writing denoted the creation of impressions on wet clay and hard rock.The origin of writing among the Proto-Saharans as an activity involving the engraving of stone is most evident in the Egyptian language. This hypothesis is supported by the Egyptian words Ø m(w)dt #. The term Ø md t # means both '(sculptor's) chisel' and 'papyrus-roll, book'. The multiple meanings of Ø md t # makes it clear that the Egyptian, and probably other descendants of the Proto-Saharans saw a relationship between engraving stone and the creation of books.

Other Egyptian lexical items also support the important role Proto-Saharans saw in engraving rocks, and writing. In addition to md t we have, Ø hti # 'carve, sculpture' and Ø iht # 'writing'.

The fact that iht is an Old Kingdom term for writing, almost identical to hti, is further evidence that writing involved the engraving of stone.POTTERY INSCRIPTIONSThe Proto-Saharan writing was first used to write characters on pottery (Winters 1980), to give the ceramics a talismanic quality .

Information on history of writing in Africa. See:

http://bafsudralam.blogspot.com/2008/08/thinite-writing.html

http://bafsudralam.blogspot.com/2008/08/gebel-sheikh-suleiman-inscription.html

Videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUGc2W06rgo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bpsIFT4uJo&feature=related

Enjoy
.

Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :

He [Gunther Dreyer] concluded his presentation by noting similarities between specific Egyptian and Mesopotamian objects and suggesting that perhaps there is an initial influence of Egyptian writing on Mesopotamia because there are signs on Mesopotamian objects that are only "readable" from the standpoint of the Egyptian language, but not the Mesopotamian language. - Mario Beatty, "Too Much Stuff": Recent Finds in Predynastic Egypt

Writing had independently been invented in different parts of the world; so, where the earliest writing emerged is not as important a question as whose writing influence who, imo. Contemporary European writing is ultimately a derivative of a Nile Valley script. A case is being made in the excerpt above, that Nile Valley script reached "Mesopotamia" earlier on as well. Certainly, it reached the Levant where it would be modified into Phoenician script, and from there, as they say, the rest is history.

Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :

Good info on Dreyer. Never knew about this particular statement of his - that the Mesopotamian objects are readable only from an Egyptian perspective.

In another article he is quoted as saying:

"Most of them are documents, records of linen and oil delivered to the King Scorpion, taxes, short notes, numbers, lists of kings' names, and names of institutions.. The writing is in the form of line drawings of animals, plants and mountains and is the earliest evidence that hieroglyphics used by later-day Pharaonic dynasties did not rise as phoenix from the ashes but developed gradually.. Although the Egyptian writing is in the form of symbols it can be called true writing because each symbol stands for a consonant and makes up syllables. In principle Ancient Egyptians were able to express themselves clearly.."[154]

[154]
^ Nevine El-Aref, "Did writing originate in Egypt?" Al-Ahram Weekly: 1 - 7 April 1999, Issue No. 423

According to mainstream Egyptologist Kent Weeks, professor of Egyptology at the American University in Cairo, Dreyer's data suggests "one of the greatest discoveries in history of writing and ancient Egyptian culture."[155]

[155]
"Egyptian writing dating to 3300 B.C. discovered," The Japan Times, December 17, 1998

Dreyer has moved beyond his early findings to pose a separate, speculative hypothesis- that the Egyptians were the first in the world to develop systematic writing as opposed to the commonly held view that the Mesopotamians did.[156]

[156]
^ Nevine El-Aref, "Did writing originate in Egypt?" op. cit

Some Egyptian archaeology authorities appear to support Dreyer's hypothesis of Egyptian primacy. According to a 1999 statement by one Gaballa Ali Gaballa, secretary-general of the Egyptian Supreme Council of Antiquities: "The earliest known Sumerian writings date back to 3000BC while the German team's find shows that Abydos inscriptions date to 3400BC. The first Pharaonic dynasty began in 2920BC with King Menes. The earliest known writing in Dynasty Zero is much earlier than the oldest writing discovered in Mesopotamia." [157]

[157]
^ Nevine El-Aref, "Did writing originate in Egypt?" op. cit