Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it it a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone.
– Manilius, Astronomica 4.724, 1st century AD
Marcus Manilius ( 1st century AD) was a Roman poet, astrologer, and author of a poem in five books called Astronomica.
Is it possible that Egyptian climate was more moderate in 1st A.D. ? He described the climate as more similar to Rome's and mentioned the inundation (flooding).
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: .
Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it it a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone.
– Manilius, Astronomica 4.724, 1st century AD
Marcus Manilius ( 1st century AD) was a Roman poet, astrologer, and author of a poem in five books called Astronomica.
Is it possible that Egyptian climate was more moderate in 1st A.D. ? He described the climate as more similar to Rome's and mentioned the inundation (flooding). This remark is also racist toward Ethiopians.
...the poor, sick, and pathetic Euronuts/Stormfronters/etc. trying hopelessly to invent a past which simply does not exist...
Here is the actual quotation from Marcus Manilius , with the accurate translation.
quote: Aethiopes maculent orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes; minus India tostis progenerat mediumque facit moderata tenorem. iam propior tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis
--- translation
"Defile the Ethiopians, they figure the world and with the darkness pouring the nations of men to have little parched India produce a moderate to the tenor of the middle makes (climate).
we now draw near the Egyptian, the Nile, Earth and swimming blacken the bodies of more gently watered the fields thereof (climate)."
infuscat corpora = blacken the bodies of
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Not for not thing Wally!! but this is the first time I have read the translation in this manner, thanx this is even more damaging to Urnutz who like to use said translation to say that the Greco-Romans viewed the Ethiopians differently than they did the Kemitians..thanx again life will never be the same for them with translation around.
Posted by viola75 (Member # 17981) on :
some one get up the entire paragraphs, he talks about other groups of people who are lightskinned and much different then the egyptians, eurocentrics like to miss out the other paragraphs,
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Why this truncated quote? Where are the strophe on Saharans and Maures? Manilius was listing all the blacks/darks of his day. Without the above two his listing is inaccurately distorted.
quote: Aethiopes maculant orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes; minus Indiatostos progenerat; tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis iam propior mediumque facit moderata tenorem. Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore.
Manillius likewise listed those held to be white/light in lines 711-723 preceding lines 724-730 on blacks/darks
quote:Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant. flava per ingentis surgit Germania partus, Gallia vicino minus est infecta rubore, asperior solidos Hispania contrahit artus. Martia Romanis urbis pater induit ora Gradivumque Venus miscens bene temperat artus, perque coloratas subtilisGraecia gentes gymnasium praefert vultu fortisque palaestras, et Syriam produnt torti per tempora crines.
Manilius nowhere claims Egypt and Rome to have the same climate. He's saying that Egypt is closer to Rome than Ethiopia is. Much of its latitude being in between or at medium points in regards to Rome and Ethiopia and thus moderate.
I see no racist intent in the line on Ethiopians because I don't see being dark and the ability to make dark offspring on lighter peoples as insulting.
The given translation is pretty accurate
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: .
Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it it a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone.
– Manilius, Astronomica 4.724, 1st century AD
Marcus Manilius ( 1st century AD) was a Roman poet, astrologer, and author of a poem in five books called Astronomica.
Is it possible that Egyptian climate was more moderate in 1st A.D. ? He described the climate as more similar to Rome's and mentioned the inundation (flooding). This remark is also racist toward Ethiopians.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
.
a translation is an interpretation by a translator. Wallys version below is similar, my remarks bolded:
"Defile the Ethiopians (INSULT TO ETHIOPIANS) they figure the world and with the darkness pouring (THEY ARE DARK) the nations of men to have little parched India (THE INDIANS ARE LESS PARCHED LESS DARK) produce a moderate to the tenor of the middle makes (climate). (THE INDIANS ARE LESS DARK THAN ETHIOPIANS DUE TO A MORE MODERATE CLIMATE) we now draw near the Egyptian, the Nile, Earth and swimming blacken the bodies of more gently watered the fields thereof (climate)." (THE BODIES OF EGYPTIANS ARE DARKENED MORE GENTLY DUE TO THE WATERY CLIMATE OF THE FIELDS)
^^^in meaning, a similar translation
.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
^ hehehehe
silly sensitive lioness debunked again.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
We must recall too that by the time of the Roman occupation of Egypt there were long extant colonies of Greeks who had settled in Egypt and then came the Romans who established Egypto-Roman dynasties that lasted for centuries.
Thus the lightening process of Lower Egypt had long begun by Manilius's time.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
This is not a translation (grammatically correct) but here are the literal meanings of roots of the words in line 723
code:
Aethiopes AEthiopians maculant spot/mark/stain orbem ring/circle/orbit tenebrisque full of darkness figurant form/shape/figure perfusas drench hominum human gente race
line 724
code:
minus less India India tostos scorched progenerat progeny
lines 725 726
code:
tellusque earth natans inundate Aegyptia Egypt Nilo Nile lenius mild/gentle/easy irriguis watered infuscat darken corpora body campis field/plain iam propior near mediumque center/middle/intervenin space facit produce moderata moderate tenorem
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Manilius nowhere claims Egypt and Rome to have the same climate. He's saying that Egypt is closer to Rome than Ethiopia is. Much of its latitude being in between or at medium points in regards to Rome and Ethiopia and thus moderate.
If this is correct Egyptians and Romans would have a more similar skin pigmentation adaptation than Egyptians would with Ethiopians
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
You are refusing to read Manilius in context. He places the Egyptians complexion between that of the Indians and the Saharans.
Roman complexion is between Spaniards and Greeks.
There is no escaping the plain meaning of the text.
Standing between Egyptians and Romans in increasing lightening of complexion are the dark Saharans and Maures and the light Syrians and Greeks.
In Manilius' order white complexions from the most light to the least light are - Germania - Gallia - Hispania - Romanis - Graecia - Syrium
In Manilius' order black complexions from the most dark to the least dark are - Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
This leaves Afrorum, Mauretania, Syrium, and Graecia complexions interspacning those of Egypt and Rome. That's four intervening complexions. No way for Egypt and Rome being near in complexion, while Egypt has only India between it and Ethiopia.
Therefore by Manilius Egypt is very close to Ethiopia in colour but very far from Rome in "skin pigmentation adaptation" as you put it.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Manilius nowhere claims Egypt and Rome to have the same climate. He's saying that Egypt is closer to Rome than Ethiopia is. Much of its latitude being in between or at medium points in regards to Rome and Ethiopia and thus moderate.
If this is correct Egyptians and Romans would have a more similar skin pigmentation adaptation than Egyptians would with Ethiopians
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
alTakruri I don't read Latin. You seem to have access to translation tools and the whole quote in the larger context. Please show the original text as before and translate as many words in bold print line by line. You seem to have done much of the legwork already it just needs to be shown together. Then we all could see more easily what you are talking about.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I can give you the whole quote within context. While I can literally translate most of the words I never took Latin and cannot make a grammar correct translation.
Some time ago I attempted a interlinear literal trnslation but never completed the task. I can only give you the side by side list of a couple of lines posted earlier.
I think Snowden translated the lines on the darks in Image of the Black in Western Art. If so, I will post it later.
MANILIUSASTRONOMICON 4.711-730
Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant. flava per ingentis surgit Germania partus, Gallia vicino minus est infecta rubore, asperior solidos Hispania contrahit artus. Martia Romanis urbis pater induit ora Gradivumque Venus miscens bene temperat artus, perque coloratas subtilisGraecia gentes gymnasium praefert vultu fortisque palaestras, et Syriam produnt torti per tempora crines.
Aethiopes maculant orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes; minus Indiatostos progenerat; tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis iam propior mediumque facit moderata tenorem. Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore.
Line 723 on Ethiopia
code:
Aethiopes AEthiopians maculant spot/mark/stain orbem ring/circle/orbit tenebrisque full of darkness figurant form/shape/figure perfusas drench hominum human gente race
Line 724 on India
code:
minus less India India tostos scorched progenerat progeny
Lines 725,6 on Egypt
code:
tellusque earth natans inundate Aegyptia Egypt Nilo Nile lenius mild/gentle/easy irriguis watered infuscat darken corpora body campis field/plain iam propior near mediumque center/middle/intervening space facit produce moderata moderate tenorem
Not all the descriptions accompanying the ethnies are references to colour. For instance Syrium hair and Afrorum environment are commented on.
Sorry but this is all I can do for now. You should begin to seek out primary documentation and several versions of their translations for yourself if you really want to study up on these topics and be sure of what was actually meant instead of relying on the interpretations of those whose agendas are nowhere near objective. Objectivity is relevant anyway as there is no way any writer or scholar can strip what they write of the colorations of the society they grew up in and by whom they were educated.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: alTakruri I don't read Latin. You seem to have access to translation tools and the whole quote in the larger context. Please show the original text as before and translate as many words in bold print line by line. You seem to have done much of the legwork already it just needs to be shown together. Then we all could see more easily what you are talking about.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
Astronomer by the Roman poet Manilius
quote:Manilius, a Roman poet, was a shadowy figure; he is sometimes said to have been a freed slave of Syrian origin, but the details of his life are unknown. Astronomicon is the only known work ascribed to Manilius. The text indicates that the author lived in Rome under Emperor Augustus (reigned 27 BCE-14 CE) or Tiberius (14-37 CE). The work is a kind of science poem on the astrology of the zodiac and the constellations, written in an age when astronomy and astrology had not yet been distinguished from one another. Although early manuscripts of this work have been lost, a number of variant texts have survived. The work consists of five books, but the last one is seemingly unfinished.
For those interested in astrology/astronomy the entire latin text work can be found in Google books for free.
<><><>
But to this particular topic, culled and distorted and disseminated by historical revisionists, here again is the accurate poetic exert:
Stained the Ethiopians
they figure the world and with the darkness
pouring the nations of men,
to have little parched India
produces a moderate to the contents of the middle makes.
We now draw near the Egyptian,
the Nile, Earth and swimming
blacken the bodies of
more gently watered fields thereof Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wally: Astronomer by the Roman poet Manilius Manilius, a Roman poet, was a shadowy figure; he is sometimes said to have been a freed slave of Syrian origin, but the details of his life are unknown. Astronomicon is the only known work ascribed to Manilius. The text indicates that the author lived in Rome under Emperor Augustus (reigned 27 BCE-14 CE) or Tiberius (14-37 CE). The work is a kind of science poem on the astrology of the zodiac and the constellations, written in an age when astronomy and astrology had not yet been distinguished from one another. Although early manuscripts of this work have been lost, a number of variant texts have survived. The work consists of five books, but the last one is seemingly unfinished. For those interested in astrology/astronomy the entire latin text work can be found in Google books for free.
But to this particular topic, culled and distorted and disseminated by historical revisionists, here again is the accurate poetic exert:
_________no revision necessary:
__________________________________________
Stained the Ethiopians
they figure the world and with the darkness
_____________________________________
pouring the nations of men,
to have little parched India
produces a moderate to the contents of the middle makes.
_________________________________________ We now draw near the Egyptian ,
the Nile, Earth and swimming
blacken the bodies of
more gently watered fields thereof
.
no revision necessary it's a progression. First we have the Ethiopians, they are "blackened" the darkest, Then we have the Indians who are moderately "blackened", not literally blacked but in actuality brown. Then we have the Egyptians who are even more gently browned than the Indians.
quote:Originally posted by lamin: We must recall too that by the time of the Roman occupation of Egypt there were long extant colonies of Greeks who had settled in Egypt and then came the Romans who established Egypto-Roman dynasties that lasted for centuries.
Thus the lightening process of Lower Egypt had long begun by Manilius's time.
maybe
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Lmao @ the posters who actually took this troll bitch seriously! You think when this airhead asks for information she really wants to learn?! lol
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
He/she is playing games.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
I am not playing games. There is not much to learn here except is that no one here speaks latin and that they are going word by word with online tools or dictionaries. When you do that you come up with the same meaning in this case. Manilius describes a progression of infuscation from dark to moderate to mild. Lamin gave what he thought may explain it. That was the most useful comment coming out of this. I have to admit the Nefertari and Isis before and after was not serious. I don't relate to them visually they look like Arab girls to me. We could hang out though
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Originally posted by the lioness: I have to admit the Nefertari and Isis before and after was not serious. I don't relate to them visually they look like Arab girls to me. We could hang out though.????? Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Originally posted by the lioness: I have to admit the Nefertari and Isis before and after was not serious. I don't relate to them visually they look like Arab girls to me. We could hang out though.?????
you got a problem with a sista hanging out with an Arab chick?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
fist thump!!! But I want to watch.
But seriously I have no problem with a European male "hanging out" with Arabs.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: fist thump!!! But I want to watch.
But seriously I have no problem with a European male "hanging out" with Arabs.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
^ thats the Eurasian types that mixed with AE?
quote:true or false:It's possible some Egyptians from the pre and early Dynastic periods up to the Middle Kingdom may have had some Eurasian ancestry.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: ^ thats the Eurasian types that mixed with AE?
quote:true or false:It's possible some Egyptians from the pre and early Dynastic periods up to the Middle Kingdom may have had some Eurasian ancestry.
yes everybody had as Diop said "typical Negro" features evreybody is a negro of some sort
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it it a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone.
– Manilius, Astronomica 4.724, 1st century AD
Marcus Manilius ( 1st century AD) was a Roman poet, astrologer, and author of a poem in five books called Astronomica.
Is it possible that Egyptian climate was more moderate in 1st A.D. ? He described the climate as more similar to Rome's and mentioned the inundation (flooding). This remark is also racist toward Ethiopians.
...the poor, sick, and pathetic Euronuts/Stormfronters/etc. trying hopelessly to invent a past which simply does not exist...
Here is the actual quotation from Marcus Manilius , with the accurate translation.
quote: Aethiopes maculent orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes; minus India tostis progenerat mediumque facit moderata tenorem. iam propior tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis
--- translation
"Defile the Ethiopians, they figure the world and with the darkness pouring the nations of men to have little parched India produce a moderate to the tenor of the middle makes (climate).
we now draw near the Egyptian, the Nile, Earth and swimming blacken the bodies of more gently watered the fields thereof (climate)."
infuscat corpora = blacken the bodies of
Thank you Wally. That is a very interesting translation. I have personally already seen more than one.
It is a shame European people have gone to such extremes to disprove who the Egyptians were even in academia over the years.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Originally posted by the lioness: I have to admit the Nefertari and Isis before and after was not serious. I don't relate to them visually they look like Arab girls to me. We could hang out though.?????
I only see Central Asian there, personally.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: ______AFTER______BEFORE
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Originally posted by the lioness: I have to admit the Nefertari and Isis before and after was not serious. I don't relate to them visually they look like Arab girls to me. We could hang out though.?????
I only see Central Asian there, personally.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: ______AFTER______BEFORE
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Originally posted by the lioness: I have to admit the Nefertari and Isis before and after was not serious. I don't relate to them visually they look like Arab girls to me. We could hang out though.?????
I only see Central Asian there, personally.
Name: Yousef Al Turki
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness:
Your thread should have ended after Al Takuri's post. Can't believe that you couldn't grasp it.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyin' arse: The above lists doesn't appear as lists like this in the Astronomica by Manilius. They are remarks he makes within the text. And when he talks about these various skin complections above he does not sort them into two categories "black" and "white".
That is something you did.
lyin' arse fuckuptions 2001.
My lists are compiled from Manilius' textual order. Amazing how it was fine when you wanted to raise an anti-black polemic but is no good once white entered the equation. Dana is right you are snaky.
Manilius composed a hierarchy of the white and black peoples known in his day by descending intensity of pallor or color in lines 711-730 of his Astronomicon as below.
quote:Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant. flava per ingentis surgit Germania partus, Gallia vicino minus est infecta rubore, asperior solidos Hispania contrahit artus. Martia Romanis urbis pater induit ora Gradivumque Venus miscens bene temperat artus, perque coloratas subtilisGraecia gentes gymnasium praefert vultu fortisque palaestras, et Syriam produnt torti per tempora crines.
Aethiopes maculant orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes; minus Indiatostos progenerat; tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis iam propior mediumque facit moderata tenorem. Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore.
Nothing you can do or say will make Manilius' words go away.
Anyone with basic analytical skills will produce the same skeletal list from the reference text. It is impossible to derive any other ordered list than that which I posted.
Manilius' order of white complexions from the most light to the least light - Germania - Gallia - Hispania - Romanis - Graecia - Syrium
Manilius' order black complexions from the most dark to the least dark are
- Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
You yourself based an argument on Mauretanians not being black as Aethiopes because of the way Manilius ordered the blacks.
Now you want to claim he never made that hierarchy. Yes you are a snake. Neither you or Melchior are interested in studying Africa from the Greco-Latin perspective. Both of you are here to uphold tired Eurocentric propositions.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant. flava per ingentis surgit Germania partus, Gallia vicino minus est infecta rubore, asperior solidos Hispania contrahit artus. Martia Romanis urbis pater induit ora Gradivumque Venus miscens bene temperat artus, perque coloratas subtilisGraecia gentes gymnasium praefert vultu fortisque palaestras, et Syriam produnt torti per tempora crines.
Aethiopes maculant orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes; minus Indiatostos progenerat; tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis iam propior mediumque facit moderata tenorem. Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore
In Manilius' order white complexions from the most light to the least light are - Germania - Gallia - Hispania - Romanis - Graecia - Syrium
In Manilius' order black complexions from the most dark to the least dark are - Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
Nothing you can do or say will make Manilius' words go away. Anyone with basic analytical skills will produce the same skeletal list from the reference text. It is impossible to derive any other ordered list than that which I posted.
The above lists don't appear in list form like this in the Astronomica by Manilius. They are remarks he makes within the text. And when he talks about these various skin complections above he does not separate them into two categories "black" and "white". The latin word for black "ater" and the latin word for white "albus" do not appear in the text neither does Manilius make a two part categorical distinction grouping the complections he lists.
That is something you did.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Manilius composed a hierarchy of the white and black peoples
No he didn't
He described the complections of people from different regions. Then you came in and sorted them into racial categories you call "black" and "white" .
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
You yourself based an argument on Mauretanians not being black as Aethiopes because of the way Manilius ordered the blacks.
Now you want to claim he never made that hierarchy. Yes you are a snake. Neither you or Melchior are interested in studying Africa from the Greco-Latin perspective. Both of you are here to uphold tired Eurocentric propositions.
I never said the Mauretanians not were not as black as Aethiope nor denied Manilus discussed skin complections in Astrronomica
I quoted you who said of the people listed below Manilius said that their complexions from the most dark to the least dark are:
- Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretani
you are not interested in studying Africa from the Greco-Latin perspective. You are here to uphold the tired Eurocentric proposition that the world is comprised of the black race and the white race.
Lp productions 2011
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: You are here to uphold the tired Eurocentric proposition that the world is comprised of the black race and the white race.
The ancient Greeks and Romans used the same black and white racial typology which is equivilant to Caucasoid and Negroid. In fact they also had an early concept of Mongoloid as ''yellow'' as well:
Lucian, Hermotimus, 31 (150 – 180 AD):
‘‘Tell me, Lycinus: imagine an Ethiopian who had never travelled abroad and so had never seen other men like but who stated firmly in an assembly of the Ethiopians that nowhere in the world were there men who were white or yellow or any other colour than black, would they believe him?’’
So basically 2000 years ago the ancients were using the same racial typologies. Phenotypes since then have no changed and they reflect racial reality.
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
Scythian-Ethiopian Antithesis
White-Black Polarization
The Scythian-Ethiopian antithesis was employed to show racial contrasting because both these races were the polar opposites.
-- Later Scythian became equivilant with any northern europen e.g. the Saxons and other Germanics.
Seneca the Younger, De Ira (On Anger) 3. 26. 3 (50 AD?): ‘‘Non est Aethiopis inter suos insignitus color, nec rufus crinis et coactus in nodum apud Germanos uirum dedecet...’’
‘‘The colour of the Ethiopian is not exceptional among his own [people], nor is hair, red and gathered into a knot, unfitting for a man among the Germans.’’
Eugippius, Thesaurus, 73 (550 AD):
‘‘…white Germans and very black Ethiopians’’
BEDE -
Bede, In Samuelem Prophetam, 1. 10 (716 AD):
‘‘…niger Aethiops et Saxo Candidus…’’
‘‘…black Ethiopian and white Saxon…’’
Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
Basically everything alTakruri posted is true (this is one of the only times i agree).
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
We know the point you were trying to make Lyingass, but it obviously backfired on you!
Thankyou lyinass for starting this thread to examine the Manilius quote that has so often been misused and distorted by Euronuts like yourself. Takruri and the others have shed much light on this! LOL Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: You are here to uphold the tired Eurocentric proposition that the world is comprised of the black race and the white race.
The ancient Greeks and Romans used the same black and white racial typology which is equivilant to Caucasoid and Negroid. In fact they also had an early concept of Mongoloid as ''yellow'' as well:
Lucian, Hermotimus, 31 (150 – 180 AD):
‘‘Tell me, Lycinus: imagine an Ethiopian who had never travelled abroad and so had never seen other men like but who stated firmly in an assembly of the Ethiopians that nowhere in the world were there men who were white or yellow or any other colour than black, would they believe him?’’
So basically 2000 years ago the ancients were using the same racial typologies. Phenotypes since then have no changed and they reflect racial reality.
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: Scythian-Ethiopian Antithesis
White-Black Polarization
The Scythian-Ethiopian antithesis was employed to show racial contrasting because both these races were the polar opposites.
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: [QB] Basically everything alTakruri posted is true (this is one of the only times i agree).
None of this applies.
In this part of the thread Manilius was being discussed.
quote:Originally posted by alTurkey:
In Manilius' order black complexions from the most dark to the least dark are
- Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
You are speaking of a " Scythian-Ethiopian Antithesis".
1) above we are talking about a list of 5 regions, you only comment on the top of the list Aethiopes (Ethiopians)
2) This thread is about Manilius and what he said in Astronomica. Look at the original text. He did not apply a reference to the word black when he spoke of the following people:
-India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
^He discusses their skin complexions a range of darkness levels However even though some Greeks and Romans made remarks about "blacks " whites" or "yellows" and Manilus may have somewhere made remarks about them, in the quote we are dealing with he did not apply these terms to the above list of people. AlTurkey decided to interpret that people on the above listed were "blacks".
3) ‘‘Tell me, Lycinus: imagine an Ethiopian who had never travelled abroad and so had never seen other men like but who stated firmly in an assembly of the Ethiopians that nowhere in the world were there men who were white or yellow or any other colour than black, would they believe him?’’
^^^ The above refers to the skin color black. The Romans sometimes made disparaging remarks about the physical appearance of Ethiopians however they did not believe it indicated biological inferiority or connect "race" to slavery or discriminate generally on a racial basis. However, this is not the point. The point is that when Manilus was discussing the skin color of
- India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
in the quotation that is the topic of this thread he did not catagorize people of the above list as "black".
IN THE ANCIENT GREEK AND ROMAN WORLD Frank M. Snowden, Howard University
The word Afer (African), however, was generally employed by the Romans to designate populations of the coastal regions of North Africa west of Egypt (e.g. Numidians, Moors), of the Carthaginians and their allies, and of the inhabitants of the Roman province of Africa. "African," as an adjective, is applied only once to a clearly Negroid type--the detailed description of a black woman in a poem, the Moretum, written in dactylic hexameter. The use of Afer as a cognomen may also in another instance, because of additional evidence, have indicated Negroid extraction--in the name of the well-known Latin poet, Publius Terentius Afer. [10] These usages however, are exceptions, and the only Greek or Latin word that commonly referred to an unquestionably Negroid type, it must be emphasized, was Aithiops (Aethiops), Ethiopian, literally a person with a burnt skin, a colored person--a word that described a variety of black or Negroid types characterized by combinations of dark or black skin, wooly or tightly coiled hair, thick lips, and flat or broad noses.
Another frequent misconception in some discussions of the populations of the ancient world is the assumption that words or expressions describing people as dark--or black--skinned were always in classical usage the equivalents of "Ethiopians" i.e. Negroes, or, in twentieth century usage, blacks. Greeks and Romans, well acquainted with their contemporaries, differentiated between the various gradations of color in Mediterranean populations and made it clear that only some of the black- or dark-skinned peoples, those coming from the south of Egypt and the southern fringes of northwest Africa, were Ethiopians, i.e. Negroes. Ethiopians, known as the blackest peoples on earth, became the yardstick by which classical authors measured the color of others. In first century AD, Manilius described Ethiopians as the blackest; Indians, less sunburnt; Egyptians, mildly dark; with Moors the lightest in this color scheme. In other words, to all these peoples--Ethiopians, Indians, Egyptians, and Moors--who were darker than the Greeks and Romans, classical authors applied color-words but it should be emphasized that in general the ancients described only one of these--Ethiopians--as unmistakably Negroid. To summarize this point, there is no justification to equate Egyptians, Moors or any other north Africans, with Ethiopians, even when a color-word is applied to them, unless details are given as to other physical traits such as color, hair, nose, or lips, or unless there is additional evidence to support an equivalence with Ethiopian.
Blacks and Whites in Northwest Africa
The assumption that a majority of the inhabitants of north Africa such as Numidians, Gaetulians, and Moors, were blacks, is also contradicted by the ancient evidence. Classical accounts clearly distinguish between the light-skinned inhabitants of coastal northwest Africa and the darker Ethiopians who lived on the southern fringes of the area. The ancient sources also point to the presence in northwest Africa of mixed black-white types, strongly suggested by names such as Libyoaethiopes (Libyan Ethiopians), Leucoaethiopes (white Ethiopians) and Melanogeatuli (black Gaetulians), a kind of intermediate population, an amalgam of whites and Ethiopians, and by the descriptions of the Garamantes, classified in some classical texts as Ethiopians but distinguished from Ethiopians by others. [15] Classical accounts of the physical features of northwest Africans are amply confirmed by the iconographical evidence. Mosaics, sculpture in the round, and other art objects from northwest Africa depict the inhabitants as predominantly white and portray relatively few blacks, far fewer than in the art of the Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans. Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
LOOOL, this is nothing new. The Lyin-ass has tried to push her anti-black, anti-African agenda only to have it back fire in her ugly face...
The word backfire in general use usually refers to a plan where the opposite of the desired effect happens or the perpetrator is directly affected as opposed to their intended target.
LMAO, Just call her Lyin-ass in the Morning..
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: We know the point you were trying to make Lyingass, but it obviously backfired on you!
Thankyou lyinass for starting this thread to examine the Manilius quote that has so often been misused and distorted by Euronuts like yourself. Takruri and the others have shed much light on this! LOL
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Hey guys, I have been going over the Manilius quote with an Italian friend of mine, and I think I have the most accurate translation yet. It took us a while to figure out the exact grammar since apparently the form of writing was poetic as most writings were in those times.
From the incomplete snippet lyinass and other Euronuts cite:
Aethiopes maculant orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes; minus India tostos progenerat; tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis iam propior mediumque facit moderata tenorem.
Ethiopians stain the circle (globe) with their darkest figures. Immersed with races of men less burnt India has produced. The earth inundated by the Egyptian Nile, are more gently darkened bodies of the watered field. We now draw near the moderate tenor (climate or condition) of the middle...
You must remember that back in ancient times the Greco-Romans perceived the world as a flat circle. As for the very last sentence, the Greco-Romans considered the Mediterranean as being the middle or center of the world in lattitude for them. The Egyptians were still a dark (black) race but one living along the southern edges of it closer to the Romans themselves.
As for the rest the Euronuts love to leave out:
..Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore.
Bright (sunny) African and sandy dust of the earth drieth up the people, and the name of Mauritania, a label his mouth bears has the very color.
This part here is interesting because it claims that the native people themselves used the name Mauritania or Maure.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: You are refusing to read Manilius in context. He places the Egyptians complexion between that of the Indians and the Saharans.
Roman complexion is between Spaniards and Greeks.
There is no escaping the plain meaning of the text.
Standing between Egyptians and Romans in increasing lightening of complexion are the dark Saharans and Maures and the light Syrians and Greeks.
In Manilius' order white complexions from the most light to the least light are - Germania - Gallia - Hispania - Romanis - Graecia - Syrium
In Manilius' order black complexions from the most dark to the least dark are - Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
This leaves Afrorum, Mauretania, Syrium, and Graecia complexions interspacning those of Egypt and Rome. That's four intervening complexions. No way for Egypt and Rome being near in complexion, while Egypt has only India between it and Ethiopia.
Therefore by Manilius Egypt is very close to Ethiopia in colour but very far from Rome in "skin pigmentation adaptation" as you put it.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Manilius nowhere claims Egypt and Rome to have the same climate. He's saying that Egypt is closer to Rome than Ethiopia is. Much of its latitude being in between or at medium points in regards to Rome and Ethiopia and thus moderate.
If this is correct Egyptians and Romans would have a more similar skin pigmentation adaptation than Egyptians would with Ethiopians
There you go weaseling about. Let me help you out.
"Accordingto Arrian (Indica 6.9): The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia: the southern Indians are rather more like Ethiopians as they are black to look on, and their hair is black; only they are not so snub-nosed or woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians physically.
Strabo confirms in Geography 15.1.13, in almost identical wording: As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in color, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Egyptians"
And here is a northern Indian,.. kay?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Yes, that is YOUR *cherry-picked* image of a MODERN northern Indian. I hope you are smart enough to see the flaws in your argument.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yes, that is YOUR *cherry-picked* image of a MODERN northern Indian. I hope you are smart enough to see the flaws in your argument.
I guess you don't know what Northern Indians look like. You don't care much for truth, do you?
Lolz.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yes, that is YOUR *cherry-picked* image of a MODERN northern Indian. I hope you are smart enough to see the flaws in your argument.
I guess you don't know what Northern Indians look like. You don't care much for truth, do you?
Lolz.
lol.
List of Scheduled Tribes in India From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia This is a full list of Scheduled Tribes in India, as recognised in India's Constitution; a total of 645 district tribes. The term "Scheduled Tribes" refers to specific indigenous peoples whose status is acknowledged to some formal degree by national legislation. A collective term in use locally to describe most of these peoples is "Upajati" (literally "clans/tribes/groups").
List of Scheduled Tribes in India From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia This is a full list of Scheduled Tribes in India, as recognised in India's Constitution; a total of 645 district tribes. The term "Scheduled Tribes" refers to specific indigenous peoples whose status is acknowledged to some formal degree by national legislation. A collective term in use locally to describe most of these peoples is "Upajati" (literally "clans/tribes/groups").
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: List of Scheduled Tribes in India From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia This is a full list of Scheduled Tribes in India, as recognised in India's Constitution; a total of 645 district tribes. The term "Scheduled Tribes" refers to specific indigenous peoples whose status is acknowledged to some formal degree by national legislation. A collective term in use locally to describe most of these peoples is "Upajati" (literally "clans/tribes/groups").
1 of the 645? Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
I like how people will use that quote then go find the lightest Indians they can to prove their point. Not all Northern Indians are light many are Dark but not as Dark as the Dravidians..
You can see many Indians have the Reddish Brown color like many Modern Day Southern Egyptians..
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Now compare the Northern Indians above to How the Egyptians represented themselves..
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
I like how people will use that quote then go find the lightest Indians they can to prove their point. Not all Northern Indians are light many are Dark but not as Dark as the Dravidians..
You can see many Indians have the Reddish Brown color like many Modern Day Southern Egyptians
Hey I have been to India. Your pictures don't reflect the CONTRAST the ancients were refering to with regard to Northern Indians and Southern Indians. Why don find pictures of Punjabis or kashmiris.
Now compare the Northern Indians above to How the Egyptians represented themselves
Those are southern Egyptians. You really think those in the North and the Delta looked like that???
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Hey I have been to India. Your pictures don't reflect the CONTRAST the ancients were refering to with regard to Northern Indians and Southern Indians. Why don find pictures of Punjabis or kashmiris.
How the hell do you know what the Contrast was. All you can do is cherry pick the lightest Indians to prove your point when Most Indian people are brown skinned in color. Even the Light Indians you post are an off brown in color..
In contrast to the Brown Color of most Indians some Indians can get black as hell. That was the damn contrast Brown compared to black, as in the case with Egypt and Kush. Posting some White looking Indian b-tch does not reflect majority of Indians.
Hell I have plenty of Indian friends and only one is f-ing white looking. The Depths you people will go to Deafricanize Egypt and other cultures.
And Lets be honest trying to use Modern Indiians to prove your point wont work with me. The Indian people esp in the North have been subject to many people Including Greeks, Persians, Sythians, Turks, Mongols, etc.
Also these statements were made in the Roman era, well after the Dynastic period and well after foreign Eurasian barbarian invasions of Egypt.
Those are southern Egyptians. You really think those in the North and the Delta looked like that???
Those Southern Egyptians reflect the Reddish brown color and phenotype as depicted by the Egyptians themselves. Egyptian Culture and Innovation came from the South.End of story.
I can care less about Delta Egyptians, they get enough recognition as it is.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
classic thread:
"The Egyptians are descendants of Indians (john says)"
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Hey I have been to India. Your pictures don't reflect the CONTRAST the ancients were refering to with regard to Northern Indians and Southern Indians. Why don find pictures of Punjabis or kashmiris.
How the hell do you know what the Contrast was. All you can do is cherry pick the lightest Indians to prove your point when Most Indian people are brown skinned in color. Even the Light Indians you post are an off brown in color..
In contrast to the Brown Color of most Indians some Indians can get black as hell. That was the damn contrast Brown compared to black, as in the case with Egypt and Kush. Posting some White looking Indian b-tch does not reflect majority of Indians.
Hell I have plenty of Indian friends and only one is f-ing white looking. The Depths you people will go to Deafricanize Egypt and other cultures.
And Lets be honest trying to use Modern Indiians to prove your point wont work with me. The Indian people esp in the North have been subject to many people Including Greeks, Persians, Sythians, Turks, Mongols, etc.
Also these statements were made in the Roman era, well after the Dynastic period and well after foreign Eurasian barbarian invasions of Egypt.
Those are southern Egyptians. You really think those in the North and the Delta looked like that???
Those Southern Egyptians reflect the Reddish brown color and phenotype as depicted by the Egyptians themselves. Egyptian Culture and Innovation came from the South.End of story.
I can care less about Delta Egyptians, they get enough recognition as it is.
" The Indian people esp in the North have been subject to many people Including Greeks, Persians, Sythians, Turks, Mongols, etc."
I think you oughta know that the main reason that Northern Indians are light is because of the migration of Indo European peoples over three thousand years ago. They were probably even lighter in Roman times since currently many indians from the South have moved into major cities all over. So nowadays there is more mixture.
Your southern Egyptians do not look like Northern Indians. Eveyone knows that Northern Indians can look like Middle Easterners or even Hispanics. The contrast is between light brown/Tan and dark brown. I'm not really trying to imply that they were "White" skiinned..just lighter than what many here are claiming. But I admit posting those near White Indian girls gave me a devious pleasure. Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: classic thread:
"The Egyptians are descendants of Indians (john says)"
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Im not going to argue with you on this. You know damn well majority of Indians are Dark Brown to Light Beige in skin color, with majority being Brown. Ghandi was a damn Brahmin and looked nothing like a white person or hispanic. And for the upteenth time Im not playing into your "Middle Eastern Looking" game because Indains don't even live in the damn Middle East and one would be retarded if they could not tell a Pakistani and a Syrian apart.
And I can care less about what a Damn Barbaric Roman thought, as the Romans invaded Egypt well after Eurasians barbaric savages flocked to the Nile Valley like Flies and breeded themselves like rats into the phenotype of the Nile Valley during the late Dynastic periods. It was the "Southern Egyptian" look that came to caricature Egyptians as the Rome AKA "Men Par Excellence"
What a bunch of Eurasian barbarics do is not of my concern or care.
and As usual you are a low down dirty liar and deciever, whose only purpose is to Eurasianize African culture.
I know you purposely posted the lightest Indians you could find. ITs how you operate.....I peeped your deceptive ways way back on topix.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Hey I have been to India. Your pictures don't reflect the CONTRAST the ancients were refering to with regard to Northern Indians and Southern Indians. Why don find pictures of Punjabis or kashmiris.
How the hell do you know what the Contrast was. All you can do is cherry pick the lightest Indians to prove your point when Most Indian people are brown skinned in color. Even the Light Indians you post are an off brown in color..
In contrast to the Brown Color of most Indians some Indians can get black as hell. That was the damn contrast Brown compared to black, as in the case with Egypt and Kush. Posting some White looking Indian b-tch does not reflect majority of Indians.
Hell I have plenty of Indian friends and only one is f-ing white looking. The Depths you people will go to Deafricanize Egypt and other cultures.
And Lets be honest trying to use Modern Indiians to prove your point wont work with me. The Indian people esp in the North have been subject to many people Including Greeks, Persians, Sythians, Turks, Mongols, etc.
Also these statements were made in the Roman era, well after the Dynastic period and well after foreign Eurasian barbarian invasions of Egypt.
Those are southern Egyptians. You really think those in the North and the Delta looked like that???
Those Southern Egyptians reflect the Reddish brown color and phenotype as depicted by the Egyptians themselves. Egyptian Culture and Innovation came from the South.End of story.
I can care less about Delta Egyptians, they get enough recognition as it is.
" The Indian people esp in the North have been subject to many people Including Greeks, Persians, Sythians, Turks, Mongols, etc."
I think you oughta know that the main reason that Northern Indians are light is because of the migration of Indo European peoples over three thousand years ago. They were probably even lighter in Roman times since currently many indians from the South have moved into major cities all over. So nowadays there is more mixture.
Your southern Egyptians do not look like Northern Indians. Eveyone knows that Northern Indians can look like Middle Easterners or even Hispanics. The contrast is between light brown/Tan and dark brown. I'm not really trying to imply that they were "White" skiinned..just lighter than what many here are claiming. But I admit posting those near White Indian girls gave me a devious pleasure.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Im not going to argue with you on this. You know damn well majority of Indians are Dark Brown to Light Beige in skin color, with majority being Brown. Ghandi was a damn Brahmin and looked nothing like a white person or hispanic. And for the upteenth time Im not playing into your "Middle Eastern Looking" game because Indains don't even live in the damn Middle East and one would be retarded if they could not tell a Pakistani and a Syrian apart.
And I can care less about what a Damn Barbaric Roman thought, as the Romans invaded Egypt well after Eurasians barbaric savages flocked to the Nile Valley like Flies and breeded themselves like rats into the phenotype of the Nile Valley during the late Dynastic periods. It was the "Southern Egyptian" look that came to caricature Egyptians as the Rome AKA "Men Par Excellence"
What a bunch of Eurasian barbarics do is not of my concern or care.
and As usual you are a low down dirty liar and deciever, whose only purpose is to Eurasianize African culture.
I know you purposely posted the lightest Indians you could find. ITs how you operate.....I peeped your deceptive ways way back on topix.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Hey I have been to India. Your pictures don't reflect the CONTRAST the ancients were refering to with regard to Northern Indians and Southern Indians. Why don find pictures of Punjabis or kashmiris.
How the hell do you know what the Contrast was. All you can do is cherry pick the lightest Indians to prove your point when Most Indian people are brown skinned in color. Even the Light Indians you post are an off brown in color..
In contrast to the Brown Color of most Indians some Indians can get black as hell. That was the damn contrast Brown compared to black, as in the case with Egypt and Kush. Posting some White looking Indian b-tch does not reflect majority of Indians.
Hell I have plenty of Indian friends and only one is f-ing white looking. The Depths you people will go to Deafricanize Egypt and other cultures.
And Lets be honest trying to use Modern Indiians to prove your point wont work with me. The Indian people esp in the North have been subject to many people Including Greeks, Persians, Sythians, Turks, Mongols, etc.
Also these statements were made in the Roman era, well after the Dynastic period and well after foreign Eurasian barbarian invasions of Egypt.
Those are southern Egyptians. You really think those in the North and the Delta looked like that???
Those Southern Egyptians reflect the Reddish brown color and phenotype as depicted by the Egyptians themselves. Egyptian Culture and Innovation came from the South.End of story.
I can care less about Delta Egyptians, they get enough recognition as it is.
" The Indian people esp in the North have been subject to many people Including Greeks, Persians, Sythians, Turks, Mongols, etc."
I think you oughta know that the main reason that Northern Indians are light is because of the migration of Indo European peoples over three thousand years ago. They were probably even lighter in Roman times since currently many indians from the South have moved into major cities all over. So nowadays there is more mixture.
Your southern Egyptians do not look like Northern Indians. Eveyone knows that Northern Indians can look like Middle Easterners or even Hispanics. The contrast is between light brown/Tan and dark brown. I'm not really trying to imply that they were "White" skiinned..just lighter than what many here are claiming. But I admit posting those near White Indian girls gave me a devious pleasure.
Beige color is what I'm taling about. Here is South Carolina governor Nikki Hailey both of her parents are from Punjab. This is what I'm talking about.
And what's the matter with Eurasians? On topix you were open minded. Here, you seem like a staunch Afrocentirc. What happened?
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
That Woman is not beige she is white. If you think majority of native Indains or Egyptians for that matter look like that then there is no point in furthering this discussion as you are clearly in denial.
Here is what the ave. Egyptian would have looked like during Dynastic times..
To Hell with some Punjan Persian/Sythian blooded Indian. and BTW, Punjab is one of the most invaded areas in India. Even the name Punjab is Persian in origin. No wonder you would choose Punjab to prove your point.
And I have no problem with Eurasians, but let Eurasian stay with their Empires and Kingdoms and Africans stick with theirs. I find it funny how you will Harp and break your neck to claim Ethiopians and Horners are descendants of Eurasians and Eurasian admixture but will fight toothe and nail against the idea of Black Arabs as if some invisable barrier that allowed Eurasians to "Back Migrate" to Africa but prevented Africans from going into Asia. I have yet to see you frequent history forums with as much enthusiasm proclaiming the African and Black people in Mesopotamia, India a Southern Europe. Awefully quiet on that SSA blood pumping through the veins of the Greeks.
As I said your only goal here is to Eurasianize African culture at any chance you get.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
To Hell with some Punjan Persian/Sythian blooded Indian. and BTW, Punjab is one of the most invaded areas in India. Even the name Punjab is Persian in origin. No wonder you would choose Punjab to prove your point.
And? You may say that Persian is an indo European language but so is Hindi. Both brought to these areas by the same people.
I find it funny how you will Harp and break your neck to claim Ethiopians and Horners are descendants of Eurasians and Eurasian admixture but will fight toothe and nail against the idea of Black Arabs as if some invisable barrier that allowed Eurasians to "Back Migrate" to Africa but prevented Africans from going into Asia.
I never denied there was Black admixture in Arabs. I have also said that there was an ancient Veddoid strain in South West Asia. However I just challenged another poster to how and when the modern Semitic/Eurasian type came to dominate in the Middle East. You have to admit, it does seem somewhat puzzling.
I have yet to see you frequent history forums with as much enthusiasm proclaiming the African and Black people in Mesopotamia, India a Southern Europe. Awefully quiet on that SSA blood pumping through the veins of the Greeks.
I think folks tend to get a little carried away on those topics. Technically you could say african Blood is pumping through the veins of everybody.
As I said your only goal here is to Eurasianize African culture at any chance you get No I'm here to try and keep a balanced perspestive. To me an objective person is someone who would say that Egypt does have a sub saharan foundation but at the same time does has a number of Eurasian influences but culturally and racially. To cliam they were all Blacks is not very realistic. You accuse of showing only the extremes in the pictures I point, to buttress my point, yet I find you do the same. You have posted some of the darker images of egyptians.. Yet you overlooked or forgot ones like this
And this.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by malcontent7: I guess you don't know what Northern Indians look like. You don't care much for truth, do you?
Your own statement should be made to YOU! I know enough to know that the majority of northern Indians are still quite dark and complexion wise would be considered 'black' in the states.
People of downtown Delhi
LOL It looks like Bollywood has you fooled if you think light-skinned Indians are the majority even in the north!
quote: Lolz.
Another biased reconstruction. The features of the skull, particularly the dolichocephalic head speak African. The facial features in particular are not unusual of northeast Africans and even some West Africans like Fulani. But the skin complexion is obviously wishful thinking, something YOU suffer. I find it hilarious they would give this white woman the braided African hairstyle. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by malcontent7:
How it looked before with more remnants of original paint.
quote:And this.
Yes we can see this is the face of a black man, though his complexion would likely have been darker if not for the paint loss.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: I like how people will use that quote then go find the lightest Indians they can to prove their point. Not all Northern Indians are light many are Dark but not as Dark as the Dravidians..
You can see many Indians have the Reddish Brown color like many Modern Day Southern Egyptians..
While Southern Indians are Darker..
Indeed. The point is, the indigenous people of northern India are still quite dark. Southern Indians are darker, but that still does not dispel the FACT that indigenous northerners are still dark enough to qualify as black!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by malcontent7: Hey I have been to India. Your pictures don't reflect the CONTRAST the ancients were refering to with regard to Northern Indians and Southern Indians. Why don find pictures of Punjabis or kashmiris.
The fairest Indians in the country are found in Kashmir which the ancient Greeks knew little about! The main area of ancient India (which included modern Pakistan) that Greeks knew of was the Indus Valley which did include the Punjab. There are still many dark (black) types in Punjab today, but you do realize that the Punjab was the site of many invasions during Medieval times which brought many Central Asian groups such as the Mughals, so who do you think represent the original ancients?? Just like Egyptians, you ignore the recent history of invasions and immigrations in a pathetic effort to claim the fair types as original! LOL
quote:Those are southern Egyptians. You really think those in the North and the Delta looked like that???
Let's see.
Here is artwork of ancient NORTHERN Egytians.
Modern Northern Egyptian man from RURAL Giza.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Notice the profile the ancient lady is no different from her modern sisters in rural Luxor.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by malcontent7: [qb]
How it looked before with more remnants of original paint.
Djehuti, you're still telling lies after I schooled you on this.
The bottom of the wax covered statue had brownish discoloration heaviest on the legs becasue it was closer to the ground and wax picks up dirt. Then they cleaned it. This is documented. Stop making up lies. Any fool can see the lighter orangish brown is the original color and the faded parts are blotchy white of the limestone, this on the cleaned version, second from above.
another scribe, similar color, in daylight lighting:
the same sculpture photographed in dark gallery with spot light:
another, again not the chocolate brown color of dirty wax
Are there some Egyptian artworks which show an actual intended original chocolate brown color? Yes there are many variations. But not in the seated scribe we are talking about. Traces of this wax are found on Egyptian sculptures and tombs as far back as 2500 BC.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Why are YOU lying?? So you insist that there was no paint loss and that the complexions of the statues are the same as when they were first painted?? Notice that even the neck collar and even some of the hair color is faded off, you twit! Who do you think you are fooling?? Do you wonder why everyone calls you a lyinass??
If the seated scribes were lighter than chocolate brown, then they likely were the same color as other northern Egyptians like these brothers:
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Notice the profile the ancient lady is no different from her modern sisters in rural Luxor.
Your own statement should be made to YOU! I know enough to know that the majority of northern Indians are still quite dark and complexion wise would be considered 'black' in the states.
Bullcrap! There are many Idians from the South in Dehi its the capital city Duh! I have been to Inida, you haven't. And if Northern Indians were that dark there would be no point in mentioning the contrast between North And South indian to describe the difference between Egyptians and Ehtiopians.
[b](which included modern Pakistan) that Greeks knew of was the Indus Valley which did include the Punjab. There are still many dark (black) types in Punjab today, but you do realize that the Punjab was the site of many invasions during Medieval times which brought many Central Asian groups such as the Mughals, so who do you think represent the original ancients?? Just like Egyptians, you ignore the recent history of invasions and immigrations in a pathetic effort to claim the fair types as original! LOL
Dude the main historic event that accounts for their light phenotype was the arrival Indo European speakers several hundred years before the Greeks. The North has been light skinned ever since. If you want to waste your time and argue agaisnt it, be my guest.
And those women in your last picture are obviously Caucasians! Give it up already.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Northern Indian
Northern Egyptian.
NUFF SAID!
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
To me an objective person is someone who would say that Egypt does have a sub saharan foundation but at the same time does has a number of Eurasian influences but culturally and racially.
Any Eurasian influence is minute and insignifigant until late Dynastic times, and led to the eventual fall or Egypt.
To cliam they were all Blacks is not very realistic.
Who said anything about the Egyptians being "all black"?? Don't pull that pathetic strawman BS argument with me . What I find funny is how when it comes to Egypt, Ethiopia, Nubia etc. suddenly the minority of Non Africans and Non Blacks become an important factor but when it comes to Greece, Numidians, Carthage, Arabs and Berbers suddenly you see no problem as claiming them as "Eurasian" "Caucasian" White or Middle Eastern Looking, and dismiss any blacks off as "Not Representing what most _________ looked like. But when it comes to Egypt suddenly you wanna be balanced.
You accuse of showing only the extremes in the pictures I point, to buttress my point, yet I find you do the same. You have posted some of the darker images of egyptians.. Yet you overlooked or forgot ones like this
I can care less about those types because they represent a Minority. and it funny because you are not one to talk about overlooking images you don't like. BTW, Rahotep looks like the average Nilotic Egyptian found in the South.
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: [
As I said earlier your only purpose is to Eurasainize any African Culture you can. Any African person without Blubbery Lips and Nappy Pepper Corn hair is suddenly Mixed, Middle Eastern Looking, or Eurasian. Then in the same breath you have a fit when Afrocentrics claim Blubbery lipped and curly haired Olmec, Greeks, Romans etc as being black.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Any Eurasian influence is minute and insignifigant until late Dynastic times, and led to the eventual fall or Egypt.
Yeah cause the Hyksos weren't Eurasians.
Who said anything about the Egyptians being "all black"??
Well what the fcuk then???
Don't pull that pathetic strawman BS argument with me . What I find funny is how when it comes to Egypt, Ethiopia, Nubia etc. suddenly the minority of Non Africans and Non Blacks become an important factor but when it comes to Greece, Numidians, Carthage, Arabs and Berbers suddenly you see no problem as claiming them as "Eurasian" "Caucasian" White or Middle.
Thats cuz most of the Berbers weren't Blacks and the Greeks certainly weren't. Elementary my dear Watson..elementary.
I can care less about those types because they represent a Minority.
Sez you. Used to be when you looked a book on Egyptology you would see many depictins of light skinned folks but if now if you look at Afrocentric Websites they show the Blackest Egyptians they can find. Are you going to deny you all don't have an agenda?
As I said earlier your only purpose is to Eurasainize any African Culture you can. Any African person without Blubbery Lips and Nappy Pepper Corn hair is suddenly Mixed, Middle Eastern Looking, or Eurasian.
This is true. The earliest Africans, Khoisans and Pygmies were prefectly adaptated to their environment. Lighter skin, straight noses etc are likely the result of Back migrations of people who came from a different environment. I mean why were the Egyptians lighter than the Sudanese with finer hair and features?? Cuz they were mixed.
Then in the same breath you have a fit when Afrocentrics claim Blubbery lipped and curly haired Olmec, Greeks, Romans etc as being black
Aside from the appearance of the Olmec statues what evidece do you have that they were Africans, Genetic? Historical? material culture?? The Greeks..well I am open minded to the ideas that some of orginal pelasgians or Helots may have had African or dravidian characteristics. But the Achaeans and Dorians they were Indo- Europeans who came from the North and brought Greek language and culture to the islands. And I don't know of any Black native Romans.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] ^ Why are YOU lying?? So you insist that there was no paint loss and that the complexions of the statues are the same as when they were first painted??
post cleaned statue, Djhooti claims choclate brown paint was removed from:
You are saying that when the Louvre museum removed a dirty layer of wax wix had picked up dirt they were actually removed a chocolate brown paint pigment.
That is a lie.
It's based on nothing other than you looking at photos on the internet and pretending.
You should know better than to spread that type of conspiracy theory.
At the same time you promote a true Negro theory based on a chocolate brown skin tone rather than an indigenous African variety of tones inclusive of skin tones less dark. Some of the skin tones of indigenous Africans are the same as people in other parts of the world as opposed to your ranking system
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Just call me Jari:
jari see if you can get a match for the Nofret. I assume that you assume she was the same color as Rahotep so ignore the statue color . I leave it up to you.
see "igbo wedding" in google images for reference
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Yeah cause the Hyksos weren't Eurasians.
Who said anything about the Egyptians being "all black"??
Well what the fcuk then???
"Hyksos" is just a term for "Foreign" Princes or "Desert Dwellers" as the Hyskos of the North were called. And I don't see how the Hyksos were anything but a hated bunch of Barbarics who adoped Egyptian Culture, Gods, Language and Customs. The Egyptians not only defeated them in war they drove them out of the Nile Valley and even out of the Levant. The people who led this were Upper Egyptians related to Beja and other Sudanese groups.
I don't recall any Egyptians going to the Levant and adopting Levantine Culture and Speaking Levantine or Eurasian languages.
Thats cuz most of the Berbers weren't Blacks and the Greeks certainly weren't. Elementary my dear Watson..elementary.
1) The Berbers were black, their Language and Origins come from Africa and the Sahran Berbers were and are black.
2) The same argument can be made about Egyptians majority were not Eurasian.
Sez you. Used to be when you looked a book on Egyptology you would see many depictins of light skinned folks but if now if you look at Afrocentric Websites they show the Blackest Egyptians they can find. Are you going to deny you all don't have an agenda?
Maybe because majority of Egyptian art work shows Dark Skinned people. I don't speak for any other person or any "Afrocentric" so I can't tell you if they have an agenda. Majority of Afrocentrics like Myra and Diop's agenda was to put Egypt's origns back in Africa and to spread the Truth that Egypt and its orgins and culture and people had nothing to do with anyone except various African people.
My agenda is to give a voice and recognition to Egypt's black native population in Upper Egypt and Northern Sudan.
This is true. The earliest Africans, Khoisans and Pygmies were prefectly adaptated to their environment. Lighter skin, straight noses etc are likely the result of Back migrations of people who came from a different environment. I mean why were the Egyptians lighter than the Sudanese with finer hair and features?? Cuz they were mixed.
This is your ignorant opinion and you have no proof or evidence that Light Skin and non nappy hair did not evolve in Africa other than your opinion and tired outdated arguments by bogus Internet Antropologists.
Evidence already proves these features evolved in Africa.
Aside from the appearance of the Olmec statues what evidece do you have that they were Africans, Genetic? Historical? material culture??
Where did I say they were Africans, you confused little cretan. Its your dumbass who should be claiming that, if you uphold a True Negro strerotype. Not me..
The Greeks..well I am open minded to the ideas that some of orginal pelasgians or Helots may have had African or dravidian characteristics. But the Achaeans and Dorians they were Indo- Europeans who came from the North and brought Greek language and culture to the islands. And I don't know of any Black native Romans.
As I said when it comes to Greeks, Romans, etc who obviously had blacks in their ranks suddenly the Minority does not matter. Suddenly you lose you so called "Balance" but when it comes to Africans if you aint got Blubbery Lips and Peppercorn nappy hair you are a Eurasian, Mixed or Middle Eastern.
You are stuck in the 20th century, trying to Eurasianize African culture. A biased bigot peice of turd.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Im not ignoring the Statue of Noferet, as that is probably one of the very select few images of Egyptian women that are white.
but you are ignoring her
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Majority of Egyptian women are depicted brown, but I have yet to see your troll as post one Image of a Brown Egyptian women.
I have posted brown Egyptian woman many a time. In fact I recently bumped up a Myra thread on Amarna women. Another example my own thread:
posted 15 April, 2011 07:09 PM, lioness productions
so stop crying like a woman
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-
f-k off bitch, you are beneath me.
I buried you long ago but you still wander like a zombie
lioness productions 2011
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Hyksos" is just a term for "Foreign" Princes or "Desert Dwellers" as the Hyskos of the North were called. And I don't see how the Hyksos were anything but a hated bunch of Barbarics who adoped Egyptian Culture, Gods, Language and Customs. The Egyptians not only defeated them in war they drove them out of the Nile Valley and even out of the Levant. The people who led this were Upper Egyptians related to Beja and other Sudanese groups.
The Hyksos were most Canaanites(Eurasians) And some of them were enslaved after the expulsion. What do you think happened to many of their women? The Nile Delat has been a refuge for Near Eastern types since time Immemorial. You see it in the Bible.
I don't recall any Egyptians going to the Levant and adopting Levantine Culture and Speaking Levantine or Eurasian languages.
What Eurasian langauge is there in the Levant that they would pick up on? But they did have a string presence in the Levant made vassal states out of many in the region. And they took foreign women for themselves as well.
The Berbers were black, their Language and Origins come from Africa and the Sahran Berbers were and are black.
The vast majority today are not Black. The Guanche weren't Black. Ancient writers only claimed that many North African are were dark which they still are but they reserved the term Aethipoes for Blacks. As you will recall our buddy Manilius has our Moors as being lighter than Indians and Egyptians. I think most people today would agree with that assertion.
"In Manilius' order complexions from the most dark to the least dark are - Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania"
So why should I believe there was some drastic change??
Majority of Afrocentrics like Myra and Diop's agenda was to put Egypt's origns back in Africa and to spread the Truth that Egypt and its orgins and culture and people had nothing to do with anyone except various African people.
It has nuthin to do with YOU. And many critics have found flaws with Diop's assertions.
This is your ignorant opinion and you have no proof or evidence that Light Skin and non nappy hair did not evolve in Africa other than your opinion and tired outdated arguments by bogus Internet Antropologists.
Evidence already proves these features evolved in Africa.
No they don't. Everywhere you have these "Non African" features you havenon African haplogroups like J, T R and mtDNA H V and U etc. And these people usually live at the etreme ends of Africa. That seems like a very curious coincidence to me. You can run but you can't hide.
Where did I say they were Africans, you confused little cretan. Its your dumbass who should be claiming that, if you uphold a True Negro strerotype. Not me..
Well I'm not from Crete..but why did you bring the Olmecs up then? If you are confused take a a few deep breaths, stand up, stretch, walk around and then come back.
You are stuck in the 20th century, trying to Eurasianize African culture. A biased bigot peice of turd.
Harsh words from the butt hurt. Admit you've been spanked! Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
The Hyksos were most Canaanites(Eurasians) And some of them were enslaved after the expulsion. What do you think happened to many of their women? The Nile Delat has been a refuge for Near Eastern types since time Immemorial. You see it in the Bible.
The Hyksos were probably the only people in Egyptian history to experience something close to Genocide at the hands of the Egyptians. Not only were they expelled out the Delta but their strong holds were Burned and Sacked in the Levant. The Egyptians ran their ass out the Damn Levant son.
Why you keep harping on the Hysos I don't know I doubt I would want to be a Eurasian Hysos back in that time. BTW, no one knows what the Hyksos looked like so what is the big deal. The Egyptians from Upper Egypt dealt with them.
and as I said like flies drawn to a light the Eurasian Barbabarics were drawn to Km.t like the dirty stinking savages they were this eventually led to the fall of Km.t..
What Eurasian langauge is there in the Levant that they would pick up on? But they did have a string presence in the Levant made vassal states out of many in the region. And they took foreign women for themselves as well.
Its called Subjugation. Your Eurasians were adopting Egyptian/African Culture not the other way around. And Slave Women prove nothing. Your Eurasians would have come scraping on their Knees to the African Sutens.
The vast majority today are not Black
Your point..??
The Guanche weren't Black.
We have already been through this the Guanches were associated with Athiopies black and others were also called "Off Black" In other word essentially the same as Modern Taureg who are in the large black.
It has nuthin to do with YOU.
Where did I claim as such, Strawman fallacy..
And many critics have found flaws with Diop's assertions.
Many more flaws in his opponents arguments and his whole premise that Egypt was African in origin has been largely correct.
No they don't. Everywhere you have these "Non African" features you havenon African haplogroups like J, T R and mtDNA H V and U etc. And these people usually live at the etreme ends of Africa. That seems like a very curious coincidence to me. You can run but you can't hide.
This is your opinion based on your own ignorance. You have no proof that Genetics proves Phenotype. Africans are the most diverse of Humans and their features are native to the continent. Ill believe Keita, and educated man over your clown Google Scholar ass.
but why did you bring the Olmecs up then
You are stupid. If you claim that Africans only can have a certain look then you are no different than people like Mike who claim Olmecs as blacks. You comprehension skills are lacking to say the least.
Harsh words from the butt hurt. Admit you've been spanked!
save your childish chest bumping for those of your intelligence level. Google scholar You are nothing but nat compared to an Eagle. An ant can't crush a Dinosaur.
Your attempts to Eurasianize African cultures wont work here son, maybe Topix but not here. You will continue to get slapped down.
You're dismissed..
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: "In Manilius' order complexions from the most dark to the least dark are - Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania"
So why should I believe there was some drastic change??
east dark are (a)- Aethiopes (b)- India (c)- Aegyptia (d)- Afrorum (d)- Mauretania"
A
B
C
D(Saharan Type)
D(Coastal Type)/(mixture with European Migrants)
You're dismissed...
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: I like how people will use that quote then go find the lightest Indians they can to prove their point. Not all Northern Indians are light many are Dark but not as Dark as the Dravidians..
You can see many Indians have the Reddish Brown color like many Modern Day Southern Egyptians
Hey I have been to India. Your pictures don't reflect the CONTRAST the ancients were refering to with regard to Northern Indians and Southern Indians. Why don find pictures of Punjabis or kashmiris.
Now compare the Northern Indians above to How the Egyptians represented themselves
Those are southern Egyptians. You really think those in the North and the Delta looked like that???
The Northern Indians at that time were the Jats and the Meds. Most northern Indians are still dark, especially Punjabis!
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
According to Snowden "Manilius Astronomica 4.729-30; Lucan 4.678-679…” noted “the similarity of the color in the Moor and the Indian (concolor Indo Maurus)…” (p. 259).
The word Indian referred to Abyssinians, Beja and Eritrea and South Arabian Himyarites (Sabaeans) in their time along with peoples along the Indus of the same complexion. As in Nonnus where they are called the woolly haired "Indi" or Blemmyes (Beliya or Beli ) along the Orontes.
To the south of the Indi in the time of the Periplus of the Indian Ocean thought to have been written by Flavius lived the very tall people in Saurashtra whom Herodotus called the "Eastern Ethiopians" and implied were IDENTICAL in culture to the "western Ethiopians" and of the same height.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Any Eurasian influence is minute and insignifigant until late Dynastic times, and led to the eventual fall or Egypt.
Yeah cause the Hyksos weren't Eurasians.
Who said anything about the Egyptians being "all black"??
Well what the fcuk then???
Don't pull that pathetic strawman BS argument with me . What I find funny is how when it comes to Egypt, Ethiopia, Nubia etc. suddenly the minority of Non Africans and Non Blacks become an important factor but when it comes to Greece, Numidians, Carthage, Arabs and Berbers suddenly you see no problem as claiming them as "Eurasian" "Caucasian" White or Middle.
Thats cuz most of the Berbers weren't Blacks and the Greeks certainly weren't. Elementary my dear Watson..elementary.
I can care less about those types because they represent a Minority.
Sez you. Used to be when you looked a book on Egyptology you would see many depictins of light skinned folks but if now if you look at Afrocentric Websites they show the Blackest Egyptians they can find. Are you going to deny you all don't have an agenda?
As I said earlier your only purpose is to Eurasainize any African Culture you can. Any African person without Blubbery Lips and Nappy Pepper Corn hair is suddenly Mixed, Middle Eastern Looking, or Eurasian.
This is true. The earliest Africans, Khoisans and Pygmies were prefectly adaptated to their environment. Lighter skin, straight noses etc are likely the result of Back migrations of people who came from a different environment. I mean why were the Egyptians lighter than the Sudanese with finer hair and features?? Cuz they were mixed.
Then in the same breath you have a fit when Afrocentrics claim Blubbery lipped and curly haired Olmec, Greeks, Romans etc as being black
Aside from the appearance of the Olmec statues what evidece do you have that they were Africans, Genetic? Historical? material culture?? The Greeks..well I am open minded to the ideas that some of orginal pelasgians or Helots may have had African or dravidian characteristics. But the Achaeans and Dorians they were Indo- Europeans who came from the North and brought Greek language and culture to the islands. And I don't know of any Black native Romans.
Egyptians and many populations south of Egypt were an are the exact same color. And most Berber clans today are of course the same color they were when mentioned in early texts. Most of the major tribes of people that were known as Berbers are still dark brown and black and color.
Those tribes as listed over and over again by the early Arab writers were the Zanata, Masmuda (from whom came the original Ghomara), Kitama, Hawara, Sanhaja.
Any group of people that speaks Berber or Arab today is called Berber or Arab. These are names for nationalities and not ethnicities.
No tribe of fair-skinned people whether Scythian, Vandal, people of the sea, Turk, Iranian, Syrian, Albanian, Armenian, or slave-descended was ever named Maurus or Berber in North Africa by the early Near Eastern or Byzantine writers.
There were different populations of the Canary Islands and so called Gaunches according to both tradition and anthropology including the dark brown ones related to Phoenicians and Berbers as well as ones European affiliation.
And of course Olmec's showed clearly both African type and Native American type skeletons as is oft mentioned in early anthropological studies.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] ^ Why are YOU lying?? So you insist that there was no paint loss and that the complexions of the statues are the same as when they were first painted??
post cleaned statue, Djhooti claims choclate brown paint was removed from:
You are saying that when the Louvre museum removed a dirty layer of wax wix had picked up dirt they were actually removed a chocolate brown paint pigment.
That is a lie.
It's based on nothing other than you looking at photos on the internet and pretending.
You should know better than to spread that type of conspiracy theory.
At the same time you promote a true Negro theory based on a chocolate brown skin tone rather than an indigenous African variety of tones inclusive of skin tones less dark. Some of the skin tones of indigenous Africans are the same as people in other parts of the world as opposed to your ranking system
Trollers never win.
Doesn't look removed to me.
Just a bit faded. Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
The Hyksos were probably the only people in Egyptian history to experience something close to Genocide at the hands of the Egyptians. Not only were they expelled out the Delta but their strong holds were Burned and Sacked in the Levant. The Egyptians ran their ass out the Damn Levant son.
It is believed by some that Hyksos settlde in Edom and some became Iraelites. I doubt that their genetic imprint was sinficantly eradicated from Northern Egypt.
and as I said like flies drawn to a light the Eurasian Barbabarics were drawn to Km.t like the dirty stinking savages they were this eventually led to the fall of Km.t..
Talk about bigotry..
Its called Subjugation. Your Eurasians were adopting Egyptian/African Culture not the other way around. And Slave Women prove nothing. Your Eurasians would have come scraping on their Knees to the African Sutens.
More bigotry. I see you harp on the term African to make yourself feel good. Lol.
Your point..??
Unless some drastic migration occured, they likely never were, not in historical times anyway.
We have already been through this the Guanches were associated with Athiopies black and others were also called "Off Black" In other word essentially the same as Modern Taureg who are in the large black.
Total BS many Guanches were swarthy Middle Eastern looking types and some were fair with blond hair etc.
Many more flaws in his opponents arguments and his whole premise that Egypt was African in origin has been largely correct.
African only in a very general sense.
This is your opinion based on your own ignorance. You have no proof that Genetics proves Phenotype. Africans are the most diverse of Humans and their features are native to the continent. Ill believe Keita, and educated man over your clown Google Scholar ass.
Lol. Wishful thinking. I'm talking about a consistent coincidence of genes and phenotypes, not mention the coincidence of the folks in question living near similar looking non African people. If something doesn't click in your brian when you stop to consider this, then you have to be close to retarded or else a serious deluded individual.
You are stupid. If you claim that Africans only can have a certain look then you are no different than people like Mike who claim Olmecs as blacks.
Have I not spoke about Papuans and andamese in the past? Face it, it was stupid of you to bring up the Olmecs, having no clear point.
save your childish chest bumping for those of your intelligence level. Google scholar You are nothing but nat compared to an Eagle. An ant can't crush a Dinosaur.
And an ant crushing a dinosuar is a very silly and childish anaology. But interestingly dinosaurs are extinct, non existent, just like the validity of many of your afrocentric calims so you just might be on to something.
Your attempts to Eurasianize African cultures wont work here son, maybe Topix but not here. You will continue to get slapped down.
You and I both know that I wouldn't be on here if I wasn't having fun.
I simply know too much to be slapped down...
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: I like how people will use that quote then go find the lightest Indians they can to prove their point. Not all Northern Indians are light many are Dark but not as Dark as the Dravidians..
You can see many Indians have the Reddish Brown color like many Modern Day Southern Egyptians
Hey I have been to India. Your pictures don't reflect the CONTRAST the ancients were refering to with regard to Northern Indians and Southern Indians. Why don find pictures of Punjabis or kashmiris.
Now compare the Northern Indians above to How the Egyptians represented themselves
Those are southern Egyptians. You really think those in the North and the Delta looked like that???
The Northern Indians at that time were the Jats and the Meds. Most northern Indians are still dark, especially Punjabis!
Oh boy.. I will deal with you tomorrow.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
I doubt that their genetic imprint was sinficantly eradicated from Northern Egypt.
Unfortunately...
Talk about bigotry..
More bigotry. I see you harp on the term African to make yourself feel good. Lol.
No, Bigotry is a bunch of Europeans coming to Egypt and claiming White people created it because the native Upper Egyptians were to dumb to do so. Bigotry is ignoring the Upper Egyptians and not giving them their fair stake and hand in building and Founding Km.t Bigotry is is giving all the credit to a bunch Eurasian living in the Delta who had nothing to do with the foundation of Km.t, thats Bigotry.
What Im doing is noble.
Total BS many Guanches were swarthy Middle Eastern looking types and some were fair with blond hair etc.
Hmm, I thought we were talking about the Garamantes not the guanches. Anywho, who gives a damn about the Guanches, they were not the only natives of the Canaries.
Lol. Wishful thinking. I'm talking about a consistent coincidence of genes and phenotypes, not mention the coincidence of the folks in question living near similar looking non African people. If something doesn't click in your brian when you stop to consider this, then you have to be close to retarded or else a serious deluded individual.
All this blabbering and you have still to post a shred of evidence that HGs in question equal a certain Phenotype and that the True Negro is valid. You would think with you chest bumping and noise you are making you would post something, yet here we are.
As I said I'll believe Keita an educated man than some run of the mill rinky-dinky google scholar such as yourself.
African only in a very general sense.
Genetics, Religion, Culture, Language, Phenotype, Customs, Tropical Adaption etc.
More wishful thinking from the Eurasian bigot whore.
Have I not spoke about Papuans and andamese in the past? Face it, it was stupid of you to bring up the Olmecs, having no clear point.
You are too stupid. Your dumb ass is the one claiming a Negro sterotype, the same people who claim such are Mike and Clyde who claim everyone on Earth was black including the Olmec, and their main evidence are the heads.
I.E You are no better than Mike and Clyde, you comprehend dumbass.
And an ant crushing a dinosuar is a very silly and childish anaology. But interestingly dinosaurs are extinct, non existent, just like the validity of many of your afrocentric calims so you just might be on to something
More ass talk, not walk.
You and I both know that I wouldn't be on here if I wasn't having fun.
I simply know too much to be slapped down...
Not really, all you can do is give opinions, Eyeball and propagate the True NEgro sterotype, other than that you don't know sh@t.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by malcontent7: Bullcrap! There are many Indians from the South in Delhi its the capital city Duh! I have been to India, you haven't. And if Northern Indians were that dark there would be no point in mentioning the contrast between North And South indian to describe the difference between Egyptians and Ethiopians.
LOL And how the hell do YOU know where I have been?? I know actual Indians from northern India and even the light ones say that light complexion is not as common as many think.
As for the difference. You mean like the same difference the Greeks stated between themselves and the Scythians and Germanics?? LOL So one is white and the other is not?
quote: Dude the main historic event that accounts for their light phenotype was the arrival Indo European speakers several hundred years before the Greeks. The North has been light skinned ever since. If you want to waste your time and argue against it, be my guest.
Dude! YOU are sadly mistaken. Archaeology and definitely genetics has shown that there was NO invasion or major incursion of populations during Vedic Aryan times. The Aryans if they did enter, were a population too minute to change the overall populace and Aryanization was a cultural process! Modern genetics has found that the vast majority of Indians, including northerners are indigenous. Those who do have foreign lineages, these date to Medieval times of known historical invasions from the Kushana, to the Mughal, to Persian immigration of Ottoman times!
quote:And those women in your last picture are obviously Caucasians! Give it up already.
LOL They are "caucasian" based on what? Their noses??
I suppose these West African men are "caucasian" as well..
You have yet to define what "caucasian" is. According to you they range from fair-skinned Eurasians like Europeans and Iranians to mahogany brown Africans Egyptians and Ethiopians! LOL YOU give it up! Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The Northern Indians at that time were the Jats and the Meds. Most northern Indians are still dark, especially Punjabis!
Indeed. Including today most Indians even in the northern areas are quite dark and have complexions no different from mahogany to toffee colored Africans. Of course there are fair types, but these are a minority, though they increase in a northern gradient to Kashmir as well as a western gradient to Pakistan. Kashmir is quite near Central Asia and of course Pakistan via the Khyber pass was the main point of entry for invasions. So that fair types exist here is no surprise.
quote: According to Snowden "Manilius Astronomica 4.729-30; Lucan 4.678-679…” noted “the similarity of the color in the Moor and the Indian (concolor Indo Maurus)…” (p. 259).
The word Indian referred to Abyssinians, Beja and Eritrea and South Arabian Himyarites (Sabaeans) in their time along with peoples along the Indus of the same complexion. As in Nonnus where they are called the woolly haired "Indi" or Blemmyes (Beliya or Beli ) along the Orontes.
To the south of the Indi in the time of the Periplus of the Indian Ocean thought to have been written by Flavius lived the very tall people in Saurashtra whom Herodotus called the "Eastern Ethiopians" and implied were IDENTICAL in culture to the "western Ethiopians" and of the same height.
Yes. What ignoramuses like Malcontent fail to realize is that early Greco-Romans actually called Indians (including northerners) as eastern 'Ethiopians'! Herodotus in his early description of Indians went so far as to mention that not only were they black (people of the Indus Valley) but that the men ejaculated black semen! Nobody knows how or why Herodotus made the bizarre comment about the semen since he made no such claim about any other black peoples. So far recent scientific evidence has verified other claims he made like gold-digging giant ants which were actually marmots, but as of yet to be verified is the black semen.
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Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
No, Bigotry is a bunch of Europeans coming to Egypt and claiming White people created it because the native Upper Egyptians were to dumb to do so
Well then your emotions have clouded your reasoning. That's not what I'm claiming. We know that the Egyptian culture was started in Upper Egypt.
that HGs in question equal a certain Phenotype and that the True Negro is valid. You would think with you chest bumping and noise you are making you would post something, yet here we are.
As I said I'll believe Keita an educated man than some run of the mill rinky-dinky google scholar such as yourself.
I don't know what Ketia says about it. However it doesn't take a rocket scientist to deduce that if folks in Arabia have light skin, long noses and speak an Afroasitic langauge, and that their neighbors in the Horn of Africa tend to have similar features and also speak an Afroasiatic langauge that there might be some connection. And before you argue that these traits originate in East Africa, I would point out we know that many of the orginal inhabitants of Arabia who had come from the Horn orginally were dark skined dravidian/Africoid looking folks.
Obviously Light skinned people later migrtaed southward and crossed over into the Horn.
Genetics[b] Right cause haplogroup T and J are African and E1b1b goes all the way into Europe but is confined mostly to East Africa. And King Tut was found to be R1b Lol!
[b]Religion Right cause Osiris dying and being resurreted is middle east...I mean African. As is Maat weighing hearts after death. Yeah we see this all over the African continent.
Culture You mean like creating pyramids to house the dead, mummification, hieroglyphic writing?
Phenotype Only in the South
Your dumb ass is the one claiming a Negro sterotype, the same people who claim such are Mike and Clyde who claim everyone on Earth was black including the Olmec
Umm Jari claiming that there is a basic African phenotype, doesn't mean other non Africans can't have a similar phenotype who live in a similar environment. That doesn't make them African. I would never argue that.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
LOL And how the hell do YOU know where I have been?? I know actual Indians from northern India and even the light ones say that light complexion is not as common as many think.
It's pretty obvious to me that you have never benn out from under the Rock you call your home
As for the difference. You mean like the same difference the Greeks stated between themselves and the Scythians and Germanics?? LOL So one is white and the other is not?
Huh?
Dude! YOU are sadly mistaken. Archaeology and definitely genetics has shown that there was NO invasion or major incursion of populations during Vedic Aryan times. The Aryans if they did enter, were a population too minute to change the overall populace and Aryanization was a cultural process! Modern genetics has found that the vast majority of Indians, including northerners are indigenous. Those who do have foreign lineages, these date to Medieval times of known historical invasions from the Kushana, to the Mughal, to Persian immigration of Ottoman times!
Dude if you read what I wrote you will notice that I mention the arrival of Indo European speakers not invasion, though I leave the possiblity open. Also these Indo Europeans had enough influence to leave genetic markers like R1a which are predominate among Brahmin and the Indo European langauges which dominate from North India all the to Bangaldesh. In case you didn't know southern Indians speak Dravidian, a totally unrelated language family.
"The entire map of base (ancestral) haplotypes and their mutations, as well as “ages” of common ancestors of R1a1 haplotypes in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East show that approximately six thousand years ago bearers of R1a1 haplogroup started to migrate from the Balkans in all directions, spreading their haplotypes. Their closeness should not be surprising, since a recent excavation of 4,600 yearold R1a1 haplotypes28 revealed their almost exact closeness to present-day R1a1 haplotypes...
Archaeological studies have been conducted since the 1990’s in the South Ural’s Arkaim settlement and have revealed that the settlement was abandoned 3,600 years ago. The population apparently moved to Northern India. That population belonged to Andronovo archaeological culture. Excavations of some sites of Andronovo culture showed that eight inhabitants out of nine shared R1a1 haplogroup and haplotypes29 as follows, dating between 5,500 and 1,800 years bp....This provides rather strong evidence that the R1a1 tribe migrated from Europe to the East between 5,000 and 3,600 years bp. The pattern of this migration is exhibited as follows: 1) the descendants who live today share a common ancestor of 4,825 years prior, 2) the Andronovo archaeological complex of cultures in North Kazakhstan and South and Western Siberia dates 4,300 to 3,500 years bp, 3) the reach to South Ural some 4,000 years bp, is where they built Arkaim, Sintashta (contemporary names) and the so-called “a country of towns” on South Ural around 3,800 ybp, 4) by 3,600 ybp they abandoned the area and moved to India under the name of Aryans. There they have “established” a common ancestor of R1a1 Indians 3,675 years bp, which chronologically corresponds to the events on the South Ural.... The obtained data suggest that the first bearers of R1a1 haplogroup lived in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia) about 11,600 years bp. It is unknown whether R1a1 appeared in the Balkans presumably from R1 or R1a or arrived from a yet unknown location. It was found that haplogroup R1b appeared from R1 about 16,000 years bp apparently in Asia."
You have yet to define what "caucasian" is. According to you they range from fair-skinned Eurasians like Europeans and Iranians to mahogany brown Africans Egyptians and Ethiopians! LOL YOU give it up!
I'll go with Europeans and West Asians. Some East Africans show "caucasian traits" which likely the result of some mixture from back migrations etc.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Dana,
The Northern Indians at that time were the Jats and the Meds. Most northern Indians are still dark, especially Punjabis!
Wrong most are not dark. Must we really contest this?
"It is important to understand the mindset. Why do many Indians perceive fair skin as beautiful The Indian race is the most diversified when it comes to skin colour. You will find all skin colours here, from almost black to as light as any white person. On an average, Kashmiris and Punjabis tend to be light skinned, while South Indians often tend to have darker skin. Of course, you will find those with light and dark skin in every community. Perhaps because there are more Indians with dark skin, light skin is seen as rarer and more beautiful Similarly, most Indians have black or brown eyes, so if an Indian has coloured eyes, he or she is immediately thought of as having beautiful eyes." http://www.indiaparenting.com/beauty/article.cgi?art_id=148&sec_id=10
According to Snowden "Manilius Astronomica 4.729-30; Lucan 4.678-679…” noted “the similarity of the color in the Moor and the Indian (concolor Indo Maurus)…” (p. 259).
Give you give us the complete passage?
The word Indian referred to Abyssinians, Beja and Eritrea and South Arabian Himyarites (Sabaeans) in their time along with peoples along the Indus of the same complexion. As in Nonnus where they are called the woolly haired "Indi" or Blemmyes (Beliya or Beli ) along the Orontes.
And yet Arrian and Strabo further quailify this comaprision by saying that Ehtiopians wre more similar to SOUTHERN Indians and Egyptians, Northern ones.
Egyptians and many populations south of Egypt were an are the exact same color. And most Berber clans today are of course the same color they were when mentioned in early texts.
And yet so many of the quotes on this thread say other wise, starting with Manilius.
Most of the major tribes of people that were known as Berbers are still dark brown and black and color.
But the vast majority of berbers are not dark brown or Black.
Those tribes as listed over and over again by the early Arab writers were the Zanata, Masmuda (from whom came the original Ghomara), Kitama, Hawara, Sanhaja.
Well here is how the Moroccans depict Ibn Batutta (who was of the Lawata tribe which I believe is a branch of the Sanhaja) on their currency.
Maybe you should write a compliant to the Moroccan Embassy.
No tribe of fair-skinned people whether Scythian, Vandal, people of the sea, Turk, Iranian, Syrian, Albanian, Armenian, or slave-descended was ever named Maurus or Berber in North Africa by the early Near Eastern or Byzantine writers.
If they were Scythians or Vandals etc then of course they weren't Berbers. That's a no brainer.
You may be interested in knowing however that the Greek historian Ephorus says the Tartessians held that Ethiopians (Blacks) only reached up as far north as the Atlas mountains in Morocco. Apparently they were pushed further back as the coastal Berbers expanded and with arrival of Islam. The Portuguese by the way claimed that some of the Bafur in Mauritania were very light skinned.
And of course Olmec's showed clearly both African type and Native American type skeletons as is oft mentioned in early anthropological studies.
Where is the genetic or cultural evidence please?
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: [QB] Dana,
quote:Originally posted by dana
No tribe of fair-skinned people whether Scythian, Vandal, people of the sea, Turk, Iranian, Syrian, Albanian, Armenian, or slave-descended was ever named Maurus or Berber in North Africa by the early Near Eastern or Byzantine writers.
If they were Scythians or Vandals etc then of course they weren't Berbers. That's a no brainer.
You may be interested in knowing however that the Greek historian Ephorus says the Tartessians held that Ethiopians (Blacks) only reached up as far north as the Atlas mountains in Morocco. Apparently they were pushed further back as the coastal Berbers expanded and with arrival of Islam. The Portuguese by the way claimed that some of the Bafur in Mauritania were very light skinned.
Some of these Vandals, Sea People, etc. migrants, being migrants would become separated from former "tribal" affiliations and become permanent residents of Africa, if they spoke Berber they would be considered Berbers by the ancient writers, becoming part of a new culture. The caveat here is saying "no tribe of" This term tribe is used loosely by some of these writers. The implication is of people who have always lived where they lived, yet an example, American Indians were thought to have come from Asia. Consider the arbitrary point from which they come from Asia, devise a new "native" American cultural identity and someone decides they are then indigenous. How many years to qualify? The term "Berber" is not what the people called themselves. It was applied by ancient writers to people living in North Africa who spoke Berber. These ancient writers did not designate that Berbers were only certain "tribes" such as Tuareg.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
This troll is only here to yank chains for attention as its obvious and outright lie proves. Not two weeks ago he was taught the full quote here. DJ thought he ignored it but MelanoPhobe was just waiting for the opportunity to mangle it so to get his jollies off not to make any kind of valid point.
Ephorus wrote in the 4th century BCE. Tartessos was directly across the Pillars of Heracles, i.e., the Strait of Gibraltar, from Mauretania.
quote: Originally posted 18 November, 2009 by Dana Marniche: "Ephorus says the Tartessians report that Ethiopians overran Libya as far as Dyris, and that some of them stayed in Dyris, while others occupied a great part of the sea-board; and he conjectures it was from this circumstance that Homer spoke as he did: 'Ethiopians that are sundered in twain, the farthermost of men.'" Strabo Geography 1.2.26
Nothing about them quitting at Dyris [Atlas] (which by the way is way far north, see map).
Nothing about anybody pushing them [Aethiopes] anywhere, if there was pushing they did it.
Such is the factual case and why Maur and Aethiop can at times be synonymous in 1st millenium Latin.
- - -
Admit he deliberately lied for attention? Nah, he'll just respond with more gobbledygook troll's bait like a toddler throwing a tantrum for its parents attention.
It may seem tactical to ignore the rube except some unknowing surfer may get taken in by melanophobe's con job.
quote:Originally posted by melanophobe7: You may be interested in knowing however that the Greek historian Ephorus says the Tartessians held that Ethiopians (Blacks) only reached up as far north as the Atlas mountains in Morocco. Apparently they were pushed further back as the coastal Berbers expanded and with arrival of Islam.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Some of these Vandals, Sea People, etc. migrants, being migrants would become separated from former "tribal" affiliations and become permanent residents of Africa, if they spoke Berber they would be considered Berbers by the ancient writers, becoming part of a new culture.
True when they assimilated and thus no longer seen as Vandals or whatever.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Nothing about them quitting at Dyris [Atlas] (which by the way is way far north, see map).
What does "AS FAR AS" indicate to you?? All the major cities in Morocco lie north of the Atlas.
Nothing about anybody pushing them [Aethiopes] anywhere, if there was pushing they did it.
I didn't claim to get that from the quote. I also mentioned the advent of Islam being a cause for the Berbers moveing South. Could I claim a Greek histroian from 300 b.c said this??? Must've been one hell of a clairvoyant huh?
Only that they settled Dyris and went on to occupy the seaboard too.
Yeah, the Atlantic seaboard. If they reached the Mediterrean, then they wouldn't have bothered to say they reached all the way to Dyris would they?? Common sense. Duh! Lol!
"Some of what is said by Ps.- Scylax (?5 th/?4 th c. Greek) is confirmed by Strabo saying that Aithiopes/Blacks held the coast right up to Dyris (= the Atlas region, Morocco) and this would include the Lixitae."
Again how could they hold the coast UP TO the Dyris which are the Atlas mountains, unless they mean the Atlantic coast??
Such is the factual case and why Maur and Aethiop can at times be synonymous in 1st millenium Latin.
Whatever. Who were the inhabitants North of the Atlas??
Admit he deliberately lied for attention? Nah, he'll just respond with more gobbledygook troll's bait like a toddler throwing a tantrum for its parents attention. It may seem tactical to ignore the rube except some unknowing surfer may get taken in by melanophobe's con job.
Actually YOU might do better trying to ignore me. As it is your attempts to seem the wiser only result in your looking the fool. A very pitiful fool at that. LOL!
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Ephorus wrote in the 4th century BCE. Tartessos was directly across the Pillars of Heracles, i.e., the Strait of Gibraltar, from Mauretania.
Once again here is the actual quote not some anonymous internet paraphrase.
quote: Originally posted 18 November, 2009 by Dana Marniche: "Ephorus says the Tartessians report that Ethiopians overran Libya as far as Dyris, and that some of them stayed in Dyris, while others occupied a great part of the sea-board; and he conjectures it was from this circumstance that Homer spoke as he did: 'Ethiopians that are sundered in twain, the farthermost of men.'" Strabo Geography 1.2.26
Nothing about them quitting at Dyris [Atlas] (which by the way is way far north, see map).
Nothing about anybody pushing them [Aethiopes] anywhere, if there was pushing they did it.
As it was already known of various Aethiopes along the Atlantic and the Aethiop push is northward to Dyris and the Tartessians were located in what now is Spain the seaboard Ephorus mentions is obviously the Mediterranean.
Such is the factual case and why Maur and Aethiop can at times be synonymous in 1st millenium Latin.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
quote:Originally posted by melanophobe7:
Yeah, the Atlantic seaboard. If they reached the Mediterrean, then they wouldn't have bothered to say they reached all the way to Dyris would they?? Common sense. Duh! Lol!
"Some of what is said by Ps.- Scylax (?5 th/?4 th c. Greek) is confirmed by Strabo saying that Aithiopes/Blacks held the coast right up to Dyris (= the Atlas region, Morocco) and this would include the Lixitae."
Again how could they hold the coast UP TO the Dyris which are the Atlas mountains, unless they mean the Atlantic coast??
quote:Originally posted by al~Takruri: Such is the factual case and why Maur and Aethiop can at times be synonymous in 1st millenium Latin.
Whatever. Who were the inhabitants North of the Atlas??
Now let's examine the webpage Tantrum Toddler leans on and see in full context what it really says there, OK.
According to Pseudo- Scylax (= Ps.- Scylax), all the inhabitants of the coast of Atlantic-facing Africa from the River Senegal to beyond the Atlas Mountains were Aithiopes. Some of what is said by Ps.- Scylax (?5 th/?4 th c. Greek) is confirmed by Strabo saying that Aithiopes/Blacks held the coast right up to Dyris (= the Atlas region, Morocco) and this would include the Lixitae. Michael Skupin uses a translation of "Hanno" saying the Lixitae were a people of Aithiopia (= Af. sth. of Egypt) not of Libya (Af. west of Egypt on this definition). Gaituli may just mean "From the South" but even today, from the south in Africa still tends to mean from Sub-Saharan Africa, the more so if it is correct the Mauri were a leading component of the Mauri with a name meaning Black and leading on to the term of Moors.
Lies are so easily unravelled. Melanophobe's internet source supports * northward Aethiop movement beyond Atlas * Moor <- Mauri = black i.e., synonymous w/Aethiop
Anyway it's looked at Morocco north of the Atlas includes Mediterranean as well as Atlantic sea- boards all of which was called Mauretania a name taken from Mauri per Manilius.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
* Moor <- Mauri = black i.e., synonymous w/Aethiop
Mauretania a name taken from Mauri per Manilius.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
complexions from the most dark to the least dark are
- Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Right cause Osiris dying and being resurreted is middle east...I mean African. As is Maat weighing hearts after death. Yeah we see this all over the African continent.
First off Osiris was not ressurected. He was cut up into peices, scattered around Egypt, reassembled via Mummification and brought to life in the Underworld. The idea of Dying and Ressurecting in the Underworld or Life After Death etc is a universal aspect of many Human beliefs.
Osiris was not ressurected in the sense that he came back to physical life. His "ressurection" was to the underworld and spoke to the Beliefs associated with Mummification.
2)The weighing of the heart is a Nile Valley(African) invention.
Connection between Egyptian and African religions are well documented, I believe Budge dedicated a book to this.
You mean like creating pyramids to house the dead, mummification, hieroglyphic writing?
The Pyramids were devolped by Egyptians(Africans), the only other people to make use of the Pyramid as a tomb were the Nubians.
Also, Just so you know, because you obviously don't there are many smaller Pyramids in Upper Egypt that date from the 3rd Dynasty onward. BTW, have you seen how Djoser looked like, If you did Im sure you would be upset.
2) The Oldest "Mummified" Mummy in Africa is the African Lybian Uan.
3) Hieroglyphic writing developed in the South and the only other people to learn, use and develop their own Heiroglyphics were the Kushites/Nubians.
Demotic was developed during the 25th Dynasty..
So essentially you lose in you attempts to de-Africanize Egypt. You might have some points when it the Coastal Berbers and North Africans, but you aint Eurasianizing Egypt. Won't work, Egypt's connections are way to African bub..
Im sorry.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: To Hell with some Punjan Persian/Sythian blooded Indian. and BTW, Punjab is one of the most invaded areas in India. Even the name Punjab is Persian in origin. No wonder you would choose Punjab to prove your point.
And? You may say that Persian is an indo European language but so is Hindi. Both brought to these areas by the same people.
I find it funny how you will Harp and break your neck to claim Ethiopians and Horners are descendants of Eurasians and Eurasian admixture but will fight toothe and nail against the idea of Black Arabs as if some invisable barrier that allowed Eurasians to "Back Migrate" to Africa but prevented Africans from going into Asia.
I never denied there was Black admixture in Arabs. I have also said that there was an ancient Veddoid strain in South West Asia. However I just challenged another poster to how and when the modern Semitic/Eurasian type came to dominate in the Middle East. You have to admit, it does seem somewhat puzzling.
I have yet to see you frequent history forums with as much enthusiasm proclaiming the African and Black people in Mesopotamia, India a Southern Europe. Awefully quiet on that SSA blood pumping through the veins of the Greeks.
I think folks tend to get a little carried away on those topics. Technically you could say african Blood is pumping through the veins of everybody.
As I said your only goal here is to Eurasianize African culture at any chance you get No I'm here to try and keep a balanced perspestive. To me an objective person is someone who would say that Egypt does have a sub saharan foundation but at the same time does has a number of Eurasian influences but culturally and racially. To cliam they were all Blacks is not very realistic. You accuse of showing only the extremes in the pictures I point, to buttress my point, yet I find you do the same. You have posted some of the darker images of egyptians.. Yet you overlooked or forgot ones like this
And this.
Retarded jackass, those features are indigniuos to Northeast Africa. They weren't east Indians, you jackass.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Some of these Vandals, Sea People, etc. migrants, being migrants would become separated from former "tribal" affiliations and become permanent residents of Africa, if they spoke Berber they would be considered Berbers by the ancient writers, becoming part of a new culture.
True when they assimilated and thus no longer seen as Vandals or whatever.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Lies are so easily unravelled. Melanophobe's internet source supports * northward Aethiop movement beyond Atlas * Moor <- Mauri = black i.e., synonymous w/Aethiop
Anyway it's looked at Morocco north of the Atlas includes Mediterranean as well as Atlantic sea- boards all of which was called Mauretania a name taken from Mauri per Manilius.
Most accounts have them reaching the Atlas. One say they go beyond. But by how much? It doesn't mention them reaching the Mediterreanean.
Observe where the Atlas reaches the Atlantic near Agadir.
That's pretty far from the Mediterranean coast. Incidently that is around the same latitude as the Draa valley which is one of the few places in Southern Morocco where Blacks were known to live in historic times. When we read about the expedition of Hanno to the west African coast it's when he reaches the Lixus which many idenitify as the Draa river that Aethiopes/Blacks are first mentioned.
"We're leaving this place came the great river Lixos coming from Libya. On the banks of nomads, the Lixites, fed their flocks. We stayed for some time with these people and have made friends with them. Above them lived the unfriendly Ethiopians whose land is full of wild beasts and broken up by high mountains, where they say the results from Lixos. They also say that about dwell in these mountains wrens strange-looking. Lixites's claim that they can run faster than horses...
It is generally agreed, the Lixos can be identified as Draa (28 ° 45 'N). The Draa is the largest river in the area, and marks the limit most southern most of the arable land. This good is the account of Hanno. Certainly the area of Herne was known to the Carthaginians because they would hardly have sent a colony to an unknown location...
In the daily discussions in Morocco, sometimes the term "Draoui" or "Draou", used in a pejorative sense to appoint a person of dark or black. This reflects, perhaps, the idea is that the people of Dra, all blacks, or that only blacks are true Draou"
Who is the real liar here, son?
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
First off Osiris was not ressurected. He was cut up into peices, scattered around Egypt, reassembled via Mummification and brought to life in the Underworld. The idea of Dying and Ressurecting in the Underworld or Life After Death etc is a universal aspect of many Human beliefs. Well that much is true.
2)The weighing of the heart is a Nile Valley(African) invention.
Connection between Egyptian and African religions are well documented, I believe Budge dedicated a book to this.
But you do realize that someone can just as easily show connection with Middle Eastern relgions?
The Pyramids were devolped by Egyptians(Africans), the only other people to make use of the Pyramid as a tomb were the Nubians.
Also, Just so you know, because you obviously don't there are many smaller Pyramids in Upper Egypt that date from the 3rd Dynasty onward. BTW, have you seen how Djoser looked like, If you did Im sure you would be upset.
No, I guess you weren't on Topix for too long but I have brought up the Nubian pyramids time and time again to counter White racists. I was also the one who first brought up Dar Tchiit, and the first to mention Al-Jahiz a Black man who came up with a theory of evolution way before Darwin.
The Oldest "Mummified" Mummy in Africa is the African Lybian Uan.
True
So essentially you lose in you attempts to de-Africanize Egypt. You might have some points when it the Coastal Berbers and North Africans, but you aint Eurasianizing Egypt. Won't work, Egypt's connections are way to African bub..
Essentially it seems that you base Egypt's Africaness on the mere fact that Egypt is located on the African continent. Whereas I am looking for significant religious and cultural elements which are shared by most African people throught the continent. In any case my argument is not to say that Egypt was a Eurasian culture or people, but that Egypt had a unique culture which was the result of different influences, it was not exclusively Black African.
Also, Mr Jari-ankamun.. Egypt was a great nation that manged to accomplish a lot in it's time, but Egypt was not the only shining star in the Near East in anicent times. It had serious rivals in Mesopotamia and the Levant who also had advanced civilizations, some dipsutably older than Egypt. Egyptians were not always the winners on the world stage. At its height under Ramses II, couldn't even conquer all the Levant and reached a stalemate with the Hittites. A few hundred years later they got their asses handed to them by the Assyrians, then the Persians, then the Nubians, The Greeks, the Romans etc. And I mention all of this because of your statements about "Eurasian barbarians" and what not..
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
But you do realize that someone can just as easily show connection with Middle Eastern relgions?
How so..?? You realize majority of Egyptian religion was developed in the Nile Valley, many of which came from the South. The Few comparisons between Egypt and Near EAstern beliefs are minute at best and more often than not are in fact found first in Egypt not the Near East.
Here is a post on my blog with more detailed comparisons..
Note that I have not even gone into detail on other aspect such as Amun's southern/NHSI connection, the Worship of Ram Headed Gods found throughout Africa.
Divine Kingship, Burial Practices, the Southern Saharan origin of the Goddess Mut and the Cow Goddess cults.
etc.
No, I guess you weren't on Topix for too long but I have brought up the Nubian pyramids time and time again to counter White racists. I was also the one who first brought up Dar Tchiit, and the first to mention Al-Jahiz a Black man who came up with a theory of evolution way before Darwin.
Egyptsearch was probably the first site to mention Dar Tchilitt and Oulata. Same for Al-Jahiz. I commend you for that but I would not be suprized if you found out via ES about those topics or used resources/Information from Egyptsearch Members.
I doubt if not for Al-takruri that Dar Tilctt would be widely discussed on the Net.
Goes to show you how much weight E.S has.
BTW, both topics will be discussed on my blog soon enough.
No, I guess you weren't on Topix for too long but I have brought up the Nubian pyramids time and time again to counter White racists. I was also the one who first brought up Dar Tchiit, and the first to mention Al-Jahiz a Black man who came up with a theory of evolution way before Darwin.
Well Egypt is in Africa as well as the Nile. Is not Spain in Europe and China in Asia?? Second its much more than that. As I said her Religion, Language, Customs, and Founding population were mostly Africans.
Whereas I am looking for significant religious and cultural elements which are shared by most African people throught the continent.
I just posted my first blog post that is dedicated to this, at least the Religious part..
In any case my argument is not to say that Egypt was a Eurasian culture or people, but that Egypt had a unique culture which was the result of different influences, it was not exclusively Black African.
No one is saying it was "Exclusively" Black african. Obviously no Nation/Empire can be exclusively anything. However it was an African Empire Founded by Tropical Africans who were the majority until later dynastic times.
The Day that Eurocentric and Classicists proclaim Greece as being Multicultural and not "Excusively" White European will be the day I take that line serious. I don't understand why Egypt is the only Empire where so much attention is payed to the foreign migrants as opposed to the Founding population.
Also, Mr Jari-ankamun.. Egypt was a great nation that manged to accomplish a lot in it's time, but Egypt was not the only shining star in the Near East in anicent times. It had serious rivals in Mesopotamia and the Levant who also had advanced civilizations, some dipsutably older than Egypt. Egyptians were not always the winners on the world stage. At its height under Ramses II, couldn't even conquer all the Levant and reached a stalemate with the Hittites. A few hundred years later they got their asses handed to them by the Assyrians, then the Persians, then the Nubians, The Greeks, the Romans etc. And I mention all of this because of your statements about "Eurasian barbarians" and what not..
I have no real problem with Eurasians as long as they are not used as a scape goat in founding African Empires. Non Africans are not needed to found African Empires. If anything the Eurasian folks in Egypt testifies to the openeess, fairness and equality of African people. This same type of Equality was seen in Axum, Timbuctoo etc. where non Africans were able to come in and reach high positions like the natives. This is the difference between a European, Arab and African. The Latter is much more open, and never invented some racial bias to discriminate. Even when Egyptians subjugated Levantines they would take their Sons to Egypt and give them a Royal Education rather than Segregate them and claim God Cursed them a certain color.
That said I rather like Sumaria. Babylonia was nice also.
BTW when I say "Eurasian" Im not only talking about the White Ones. There were quite a few Darkskinned and even black Eurasians. The Sumarians were Austaioid/Veddoid looking if Im not mistaken, same with the Elamites and Babylonians.
The only properly cited primary document account we have of Aethiopes overrunning Libya is the statement in Ephorus' report from the Tartessians as in Strabo.
Simply put, "a great part of the sea-board" north of Dyris is a subset of the whole said sea-board which stretches on the Atlantic side of Morocco from modern Tiznit (re Anti-Atlas) or Essaouira (re High Atlas) to Morocco's Mediterranean side at Nador (re Middle Atlas).
Some Aethiopes who left Dyris to "occupy a great part of the sea-board" would have traveled the Moulouya river for direct easy travel to the Mediterranean just as easily as moving northward along the coast of the Atlantic by others.
Since Strabo uses the word sea-board in the singular not the plural we see the whole of what the Romans called Mauretania Tingitana is involved.
Whether Ephorus, writing in the 4th century BCE about earlier events, had in mind with "seacoast" either Mediterranean or Atlantic or both, all choices are firmly located in Mauretania.
That fact is why Maur and Aethiop can at times be synonymous in 1st millenium CE Latin texts.
* northward Aethiop movement beyond Atlas * Moor <- Mauri = black i.e., synonymous w/Aethiop
Ephorus' pre-350 BCE Aethiopes are an ancestral component of post 42 CE Mauretanian population.
Map 1. showing the extent of the Anti, High, and Middle Atlases and the Rif.
Map 2. showing Nador at Middle Atlas Mediterranean sea-board from R. Moulouya
Map 3. Mauretania Tingitana (courtesy Tamazya War Tilisa
Map 4. 1000 years later international polity of the descendents of the early Mauri/Aethiopes
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
How so..?? You realize majority of Egyptian religion was developed in the Nile Valley, many of which came from the South. The Few comparisons between Egypt and Near EAstern beliefs are minute at best and more often than not are in fact found first in Egypt not the Near East.
Possibly but as you say there are many universal mythological themes shared by many cultures.
Here is a post on my blog with more detailed comparisons..
Note that I have not even gone into detail on other aspect such as Amun's southern/NHSI connection, the Worship of Ram Headed Gods found throughout Africa.
Divine Kingship, Burial Practices, the Southern Saharan origin of the Goddess Mut and the Cow Goddess cults.
Interesting. Amun was popular in Libya. Some argue for a Libyan origin
Egyptsearch was probably the first site to mention Dar Tchilitt and Oulata. Same for Al-Jahiz. I commend you for that but I would not be suprized if you found out via ES about those topics or used resources/Information from Egyptsearch Members.
I don't know I mentioned Dar Tchitt on Topix over two years ago when I was talking to 9th element. I had ran across it on a French site but could find nothin in English about it. It's the same thing with the Bouar mgalths in Central Africa..can't find much Enlish material on them. I doubt if not for Al-takruri that Dar Tilctt would be widely discussed on the Net.
BTW, both topics will be discussed on my blog soon enough.
Well I will check it out then.
I just posted my first blog post that is dedicated to this, at least the Religious part..
No one is saying it was "Exclusively" Black african. Obviously no Nation/Empire can be exclusively anything. However it was an African Empire Founded by Tropical Africans who were the majority until later dynastic times.
The Day that Eurocentric and Classicists proclaim Greece as being Multicultural and not "Excusively" White European will be the day I take that line serious. I don't understand why Egypt is the only Empire where so much attention is payed to the foreign migrants as opposed to the Founding population.
Yes, It is annoying how some Eurocentrics will look down on Mediterranean people and yet try to pretend that ancient Greece was somehow Aryan with no Near Eastern or African influences. Total BS.
I have no real problem with Eurasians as long as they are not used as a scape goat in founding African Empires. Non Africans are not needed to found African Empires. If anything the Eurasian folks in Egypt testifies to the openeess, fairness and equality of African people. This same type of Equality was seen in Axum, Timbuctoo etc. where non Africans were able to come in and reach high positions like the natives. This is the difference between a European, Arab and African. The Latter is much more open, and never invented some racial bias to discriminate. Even when Egyptians subjugated Levantines they would take their Sons to Egypt and give them a Royal Education rather than Segregate them and claim God Cursed them a certain color.
That said I rather like Sumaria. Babylonia was nice also.
BTW when I say "Eurasian" Im not only talking about the White Ones. There were quite a few Darkskinned and even black Eurasians. The Sumarians were Austaioid/Veddoid looking if Im not mistaken, same with the Elamites and Babylonians. I believe it was the Ubaidians and Elamites who showed Veddoid faetures. The Sumerians are Believed to have come from the Central Asia somehwere.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Simply put, "a great part of the sea-board" northof Dyris is a subset of the whole said sea-board which stretches on the Atlantic side of Morocco from modern Tiznit (re Anti-Atlas) or Essaouira (re High Atlas) to Morocco's Mediterranean side at Nador (re Middle Atlas).
Some Aethiopes who left Dyris to "occupy a great part of the sea-board" would have traveled the Moulouya river for direct easy travel to the Mediterranean just as easily as moving northward along the coast of the Atlantic by others.
Since Strabo uses the word sea-board in the singular not the plural we see the whole of what the Romans called Mauretania Tingitana is involved.
Thats your interpretation. There is a significant amount of tesitimony from the ancients that light skinned peoples lived above the Atlas. Pliny and Ptolemy both mention "Leukaethiops" in Morocco and contrast them with and the "Nigritae".
"The Roman administrator and historian, Gaius Crispus Sallust, says of people of North Africa.
North Africa was first occupied by Libyans and Getulians, who were a barbarous people, a heterogeneous mass, or agglomeration of people of different races, without any form of religion or government, nourishing themselves on herbs, or devouring the raw flesh of animals killed in the chase; for first amongst these were found Blacks, probably some from the interior of Africa, and belonging to the great negro family; then whites, issue of the Semitic stock, who apparently constituted, even at that early period, the dominant race or caste. Later, but at an epoch absolutely unknown, a new horde of Asiatics of Medes, Persians, and Armenians, invaded the countries of the Atlas, and, led on by Hercules, pushed their conquests as far as Spain."
Of course his story about Medes and Armenians reaching Spain under Hercules is fantastical conjecture,yet it is his attempt to explain the appearance and origins of the folks that lived in these regions.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
quote:Originally posted by liar7:
"The Roman administrator and historian, Gaius Crispus Sallust, says of people of North Africa.
North Africa was first occupied by Libyans and Getulians, who were a barbarous people, a heterogeneous mass, or agglomeration of people of different races, without any form of religion or government, nourishing themselves on herbs, or devouring the raw flesh of animals killed in the chase; for first amongst these were found Blacks, probably some from the interior of Africa, and belonging to the great negro family; then whites, issue of the Semitic stock, who apparently constituted, even at that early period, the dominant race or caste. Later, but at an epoch absolutely unknown, a new horde of Asiatics of Medes, Persians, and Armenians, invaded the countries of the Atlas, and, led on by Hercules, pushed their conquests as far as Spain."
This is the second time I expose this lie. That quote is not in Sallust. Is it from another of your anonymous internet so-called sources? Do you have any idea who wrote those words?
You have proven incapable of producing primary documentation. You have proven incapable of properly citing your so-called references.
All you do is cut and paste opinions from people on the internet as if they really have any weight just because you use them as quotes.
But what else can be expected from someone who never wrote a university term paper where quoted references require author, title, and page number at minimum.
What's worse you're so blind to not see your quote supports black primacy of North Africa's Libyans and Gaetulians differentiating local blacks and southern migrant blacks in the black component.
Your source is in line with the Tartessians report that Aethiopes overran Libya. Note that Numidia includes two Atlases, the Saharan one and the Tell one.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
The only properly cited primary document account we have of Aethiopes overrunning Libya is the statement in Ephorus' report from the Tartessians as in Strabo.
Simply put, "a great part of the sea-board" north of Dyris is a subset of the whole said sea-board which stretches on the Atlantic side of Morocco from modern Tiznit (re Anti-Atlas) or Essaouira (re High Atlas) to Morocco's Mediterranean side at Nador (re Middle Atlas).
Some Aethiopes who left Dyris to "occupy a great part of the sea-board" would have traveled the Moulouya river for direct easy travel to the Mediterranean just as easily as moving northward along the coast of the Atlantic by others.
Since Strabo uses the word sea-board in the singular not the plural we see the whole of what the Romans called Mauretania Tingitana is involved.
Whether Ephorus, writing in the 4th century BCE about earlier events, had in mind with "seacoast" either Mediterranean or Atlantic or both, all choices are firmly located in Mauretania.
That fact is why Maur and Aethiop can at times be synonymous in 1st millenium CE Latin texts.
* northward Aethiop movement beyond Atlas * Moor <- Mauri = black i.e., synonymous w/Aethiop
Ephorus' pre-350 BCE Aethiopes are an ancestral component of post 42 CE Mauretanian population.
Map 1. showing the extent of the Anti, High, and Middle Atlases and the Rif.
Map 2. showing Nador at Middle Atlas Mediterranean sea-board from R. Moulouya
Map 3. Mauretania Tingitana (courtesy Tamazya War Tilisa
Map 4. 1000 years later international polity of the descendents of the early Mauri/Aethiopes
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
quote:Originally posted by liar7:
"The Roman administrator and historian, Gaius Crispus Sallust, says of people of North Africa.
North Africa was first occupied by Libyans and Getulians, who were a barbarous people, a heterogeneous mass, or agglomeration of people of different races, without any form of religion or government, nourishing themselves on herbs, or devouring the raw flesh of animals killed in the chase; for first amongst these were found Blacks, probably some from the interior of Africa, and belonging to the great negro family; then whites, issue of the Semitic stock, who apparently constituted, even at that early period, the dominant race or caste. Later, but at an epoch absolutely unknown, a new horde of Asiatics of Medes, Persians, and Armenians, invaded the countries of the Atlas, and, led on by Hercules, pushed their conquests as far as Spain."
This is the second time I expose your lie. Thatquote is not in Sallust. It is from another ofyour anonymous internet so-called sources.
You have proven incapable of producing primary documentation. You have proven incapable of properly citing your so-called references.
All you do is cut and paste opinions from people on the internet as if they really have any weight just because you use them as quotes.
But what else can be expected from someone who never wrote a university term paper where quoted references require author, title, and page number at minimum.
You are an idiot. The quote is from travels in morocco by James Richardson who is summarizing a passage form Sallust's Conspiracy of Catiline and The Jurgurthine War Ch 18... Very anynomous
"But after Hercules, as the Africans think, perished in Spain, his army, which was composed of various nations,2 having lost its leader, and many candidates severally claiming the command of it, was speedily dispersed. Of its constituent troops, the Medes, Persians, and Armenians,3 having sailed over into Africa, occupied the parts nearest to our sea.4 The Persians, however, settled more toward the ocean,5 and used the inverted keels of their vessels for huts, there being no wood in the country"
One wonders why you chose to focus on this quote as if this would really disprove that folks about the Atlas were light skinned and yet leave the quotes by Pliny and Ptolemy unchallenged??
And you efforts to refute what is implied by Ephorus is laughable.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
quote:Originally posted by liar7:
"The Roman administrator and historian, Gaius Crispus Sallust, says of people of North Africa.
North Africa was first occupied by Libyans and Getulians, who were a barbarous people, a heterogeneous mass, or agglomeration of people of different races, without any form of religion or government, nourishing themselves on herbs, or devouring the raw flesh of animals killed in the chase; for first amongst these were found Blacks, probably some from the interior of Africa, and belonging to the great negro family; then whites, issue of the Semitic stock, who apparently constituted, even at that early period, the dominant race or caste. Later, but at an epoch absolutely unknown, a new horde of Asiatics of Medes, Persians, and Armenians, invaded the countries of the Atlas, and, led on by Hercules, pushed their conquests as far as Spain."
Are you so blind to not see your quote supports black primacy of North Africa's Libyans and Gaetulians differentiating local blacks and southern migrant blacks in the black component?
Your source is in line with the Tartessians report that Aethiopes overran Libya. Note that Numidia includes two Atlases, the Saharan one and the Tell one.
All you have in your favor is a demogogue debater's bag of tricks which is useless here where fact overrules fancy and all your non-sequitors, red herrings, and strawmen.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Prime example of Melanophobe's all white Maurs.
This melanophobic concept -- the midnight spook -- remained in the European psyche and was openly in the common parlance of Euro-Americans until quite recently.
Yes, for sure refers to a white/light skinned person. Don't believe it? Substitute other white/light ethnies for Moor. Hispaniard so black Greek so black Roman so black But wait Roman so black works. Then Juvenal's satire fails, no? Juvenal's Roman reading audience obviously thought Moors were white/light. Yes!
But if honest examination is what you want broach a thread on Greco-Latin quotes concerning Maurs and other contemporaneous North Africans. Post them one by one with complete standard citation with no repeats and we'll see which colour is mostly associated with them. I gaurantee your blackless North Africa lie will be further exposed.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Who does melanophobic mulatto hate more? Is it a black mother or a black father who tarred him out of the white race he would belong to if only his white parent hadn't laid down with his black parent? Well, unable to slough off what he sees as a black taint in his blood he can seek admission to whiteness by discounting any and everything associated with blacks.
Poor sick soul, neither black nor white yet applying for honorary white status downplaying everything that is black.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Alot of Garrig's arguments are copy-n-pasted from here..
With an occasional mention of Guanches, and the occasial posting info from Mathilda's blog.
Notice they never give info on the Muwalladun conversion, the Saqalibba and the slave MArket of NAtive Iberians in Andalucia and North Africa.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Are you really that delirious?? Look at what the source says, "who were a barbarous people, a heterogeneous mass, or agglomeration of people of different races"
And here "these were found Blacks, probably some from the interior of Africa"
Your source is in line with the Tartessians report that Aethiopes overran Libya. Note that Numidia includes two Atlases, the Saharan one and the Tell one.
The Tartessians mention as far as the Atlas, directely South of them, and to the ATLANTIC Seaboard. This is further demonstrated by Hanno who sailed West African coast and reports Blacks after reaching the Lixos (Draa) River. I have showed you that tradition in Morocco of the Draa region being associated with Blacks since antiquity.
Here is a later source from the 10th century Arab chronicler Ibn Hawkal who talks about the "pure" Sanhaja Berbers in contrast with Banu Tanamak who were originally Blacks from Gao in Mali who became Whites from moving up North to the "Trab al-Bidan" after a few generations of mixing. I'm not going post some small quote so you can twist it out of context. Here is a link to the whole book so you can read it all for yourself. Enjoy. http://tinyurl.com/3qx58pc
All you have in your favor is a demogogue debater's bag of tricks which is useless here where fact overrules fancy and all your non-sequitors, red herrings, and strawmen.
Facts?? Lol! All you have is quotes from folks like Manilius and your dubious and forced interpretations.
And Juvenal's work was satire. And yes The Roamns had seen Blacks from Africa. Does that mean they reached the coast?? Nope.
Also, you seem ridiculously pretentious for the meager intellectual showing you display on here. It's kind of comical. Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Who does melanophobic mulatto hate more? Is it a black mother or a black father who tarred him out of the white race he would belong to if only his white parent hadn't laid down with his black parent? Well, unable to slough off what he sees as a black taint in his blood he can seek admission to whiteness by discounting any and everything associated with blacks.
Poor sick soul, neither black nor white yet applying for honorary white status downplaying everything that is black.
You notice I never slander posters based on their race. Apparently if someone doesn't agree with your view that Blacks overran all of Africa that means they hate Blacks. Just goes to show how clueless you are, not to mention being a low down and ENVIOUS racist!
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Ho hum. Typical roorag from a phony with the **** beat out of him unable to cite ancient support texts.
Putting words in Tartessian mouths that Ephorus never reported? Bad sad broken trick you don't even believe yourself.
Ephorus' view that Aethiopes overran Libya Richard corroborates with local and incoming types of blacks as the Libyan and Gaetuli base upon which others admixed.
American minstrel black face was satire. By your sprained logic the barbs of the satire were not directed at Black Americans?
Where are your quotes of a Hispaniard, Roman or Greek so black you don't want to run into down town at midnight?
You have slandered every notice given of blacks in North Africa making you the envious racialist hater of the blood in your veins from either your supposed black mother or supposed black father. Which one of them taught you to fight hard against the reality of black presences and dish out large parts of Africa to so-called southwest Asia and favor other such white preference lies?
No coherency in your "argument" just the raving fear of a poor sick soul turned inside out in conundrum about his own hybrid makeup always beating down blacks always playing up whites.
You're just an empty showboat with no primary documentation just rehashing 17th-20th century opinions as if they are the voice of the ancients.
You're good at grandstanding but totally suck at composing a coherent post anchored on one subject with any kind of academics about it.
Challenge reissued if honest examination is what you want broach a thread on Greco-Latin quotes concerning Maurs and other contemporaneous North Africans. Post them one by one with complete standard citation with no repeats and we'll see which colour is mostly associated with them. I guarantee your blackless North Africa lie will be further exposed.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
The only properly cited primary document account we have of Aethiopes overrunning Libya is the statement in Ephorus' report from the Tartessians as in Strabo.
Simply put, "a great part of the sea-board" north of Dyris is a subset of the whole said sea-board which stretches on the Atlantic side of Morocco from modern Tiznit (re Anti-Atlas) or Essaouira (re High Atlas) to Morocco's Mediterranean side at Nador (re Middle Atlas).
Some Aethiopes who left Dyris to "occupy a great part of the sea-board" would have traveled the Moulouya river for direct easy travel to the Mediterranean just as easily as moving northward along the coast of the Atlantic by others.
Since Strabo uses the word sea-board in the singular not the plural we see the whole of what the Romans called Mauretania Tingitana is involved.
Whether Ephorus, writing in the 4th century BCE about earlier events, had in mind with "seacoast" either Mediterranean or Atlantic or both, all choices are firmly located in Mauretania.
That fact is why Maur and Aethiop can at times be synonymous in 1st millenium CE Latin texts.
* northward Aethiop movement beyond Atlas * Moor <- Mauri = black i.e., synonymous w/Aethiop
Ephorus' pre-350 BCE Aethiopes are an ancestral component of post 42 CE Mauretanian population.
Map 1. showing the extent of the Anti, High, and Middle Atlases and the Rif.
Map 2. showing Nador at Middle Atlas Mediterranean sea-board from R. Moulouya
Map 3. Mauretania Tingitana (courtesy Tamazya War Tilisa
Map 4. 1000 years later international polity of the descendents of the early Mauri/Aethiopes
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
and there ends yet another beat down.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
The Malcontent Melanophobe is getting his britches in a bunch. Meanwhile the Lyinass is not fairing so well either.
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
* Moor <- Mauri = black i.e., synonymous w/Aethiop
Mauretania a name taken from Mauri per Manilius.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
complexions from the most dark to the least dark are
- Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
There is no contradiction if you cited Takruri's entire post in its original. Mauri meant black like Aethiop, however the Greeks acknowledged that black peoples came in varying degrees of darkness or complexion. If you recalled the Greeks ranked themselves as white also in varying degrees with other whites.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant. flava per ingentis surgit Germania partus, Gallia vicino minus est infecta rubore, asperior solidos Hispania contrahit artus. Martia Romanis urbis pater induit ora Gradivumque Venus miscens bene temperat artus, perque coloratas subtilisGraecia gentes gymnasium praefert vultu fortisque palaestras, et Syriam produnt torti per tempora crines.
Manilius' order of white complexions from the most light to the least light - Germania - Gallia - Hispania - Romanis - Graecia - Syrium
Manilius' order black complexions from the most dark to the least dark are
- Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
You yourself based an argument on Mauretanians not being black as Aethiopes because of the way Manilius ordered the blacks.
Now you want to claim he never made that hierarchy. Yes you are a snake...
Indeed. The lyinass snake wants to disavow the very notion of 'blackness' in regards to the Egyptians yet NEVER does she want to do the same in regards to WHITENESS. Sorry snaky but you are trampled as well. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by melanophobic malcontent7: Essentially it seems that you base Egypt's Africaness on the mere fact that Egypt is located on the African continent. Whereas I am looking for significant religious and cultural elements which are shared by most African people throught the continent. In any case my argument is not to say that Egypt was a Eurasian culture or people, but that Egypt had a unique culture which was the result of different influences, it was not exclusively Black African.
LMAOH
WRONG as usual, dummy! Takruri like the rest of us KNOW that Egypt's Africaness is rooted much more than geography but biologically amongst its peoples as well as its indigenous culture!!
"...the early cultures of Merimde, the Fayum, Badari Naqada I and II are essentially African and early African social customs and religious beliefs were the root and foundation of the ancient Egyptian way of life." Shaw, Thurston (1976) Changes in African Archaeology in the Last Forty Years in African Studies since 1945
"The evidence also points to linkages to other northeast African peoples, not coincidentally approximating the modern range of languages closely related to Egyptian in the Afro-Asiatic group (formerly called Hamito-Semetic). These linguistic similarities place ancient Egyptian in a close relationship with languages spoken today as far west as Chad, and as far south as Somalia. Archaeological evidence also strongly supports an African origin. A widespread northeastern African cultural assemblage, including distinctive multiple barbed harpoons and pottery decorated with dotted wavy line patterns, appears during the early Neolithic (also known as the Aqualithic, a reference to the mild climate of the Sahara at this time).
Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this time resembles early Egyptian iconography. Strong connections between Nubian (Sudanese) and Egyptian material culture continue in later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper Egypt. Similarities include black-topped wares, vessels with characteristic ripple-burnished surfaces, a special tulip-shaped vessel with incised and white-filled decoration, palettes, and harpoons...
Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization..."
Donald Redford (2001) The Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt
And these are just a couple of the myriad of Egyptologists and experts who agree that ancient Egypt is as much African as Rome is European!! So where are YOUR Egyptological sources claiming the Asian influences, and I mean up to date ones!
Its features like the high status of women, to circumcision of pubescent children, to heka or magic which corresponds to voodoo, to the very institution of pharaoh as not only king but god are very much African in nature.
If you actually did REAL research into Egypt your ignorant ass would know this, but instead your focus is on de-Africanizing or essentially white-washing, so of course you don't know any of this sh|t!
If you have no interest in truth let alone scholarship then BEGONE you twit!!
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
This Garrig dude is a fraudulent google scholar who will site anything he gets from a random google search to advance his positions..
Some of the dubious sources he quotes..
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Well into dynastic times
"Meanwhile the second king of the Tenth Dynasty, Wahkare Achthoes III, managed to coexist with the Asiatics on the eastern Delta. Since Thebes was advancing in the south, with his ally Asyut he attacked them at This, capturing them "like a cloudburst;" but he regretted allowing his troops to plunder the sacred tombs. Later the Theban King Inyotef II came back and drove the Heracleopolitans out of the Thinite Nome. After this, peace lasted for several decades as Wahkare reigned nearly half a century.
Sesostris I wasted no time in returning to strengthen his rule, and he extended his territory even farther south in Nubia, where gold was being mined for Egypt. Sesostris continued to mine and build, including towering granite obelisks at the Re-Atum temple at Heliopolis used during his Sed festival. At Karnak the god Amen-Re was honored with large structures. Sesostris himself was regarded as a god, and once again the power of the kings increased. He ruled for thirty-five years after his father's death and brought in his own son, Amenemhet II, as co-regent for his last two years. Amenemhet II and Sesostris II increased Egyptian prosperity by reclaiming land for agriculture in the Faiyum depression with surplus Nile water. More Asiatics immigrated into Egypt to work as servants, and trade was established as far away as Crete and Babylon. http://www.san.beck.org/EC4-Egypt.html
To the Afrocentrists who are spamming this entry with outraged comments along the line of ‘you don’t understand African diversity’, ‘Malcolm X had red hair’, ‘some Africans have Caucasian hair,’ and ‘you’ve never been to Africa’…
The average black American is about 1/5 European, which explains why black Americans occasionally crop up with blue eyes and ginger hair (although Malcolm X only went reddish in summer, not a proper ginger).
The same goes for Caucasian textured hair in Africans. The anthropologists who’ve studied the hair came to the conclusions of mostly Caucasian (Fletcher) to almost half negroid (Eugene Strouhal called it sterotypically mulatto) of the Southern oldest samples, the Badarians. Afrocentrists please note, those Strouhal and Keita studies do not include Northern Egyptians in any way. That Strouhal study is badly misquoted from in the Keita study of Badarian crania: he claimed Strouhal observed the hair to be 80% negroid, but the Strouhal study itself says no such thing, and makes it quite clear that the Southern Egyptians were of mixed ancestry. The Keita study this quote is from even states that the North Egyptian crania are different to the Southern, a fact often ignored once the words ’80% negroid’ are spotted. Also, try reading the other Keita work properly, it places Caucasians all over North Africa from the Oranian paleolithic onwards.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: [b] Oh really?? Read it again.
"The tools, the pottery, and the method of burial of the earlier Omari periods all resembled those of southwestern Asia and those of the other Asiatic villages to the north. Archaeologists took note of this distinct culture by referring to it as the "Deltic Tradition."
On the Siwa in a desperation to prove they are slaves he cited a dance website..
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: jari,"Siwa is also an important - and the last - stop on the caravan route before the Libyan Desert. The Berber inheritance is manifested in the red hair and blue eyes in some of the inhabitants, whereas the former slave market has brought with it the dark skin and other African features.
The present day Siwans form two distinct families, the eastern and the western, each divided into smaller communities. The family elders have been and continue to be very important in solving disputes, preserving tradition, administering justice and acting as scribes recording Siwan events. No intermarriage occurs between the eastern and western families, and the dark African and Berber blood are not allowed to mix in marriage either."
^ LOL Yeah, I think I figured that out once he cited Sanderson Beck! LMAO
The guy is a desperate loser who obviously must be suffering from some kind of neurosis. Perhaps he really is a messed up 'mulatto' with an identity crisis. It reminds me of Jaimie! LMAO Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
^^^ What gets me is the dude calls Keita an "Afrocentric Fraud" which is just an unfounded slander yet posts from Mathilda's blog as if that b#tch has any credibility.
Dude is known to flip flop, in the debate on the Siwa he claimed they we Tibu Slaves, Sudanese Slaves, Chadian Slaves, now in a debate with Explorer they are West African slaves. All depending on the source his google search yeilds. HE even claimed the Original Berbers were replaced by Chadian slaves.
A damn joke for real..
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [Indeed. The lyinass snake wants to disavow the very notion of 'blackness' in regards to the Egyptians yet NEVER does she want to do the same in regards to WHITENESS. Sorry snaky but you are trampled as well. [/QB]
Stop lying I clearly stated that in the Manilius quote we are discussing he does not designate either "white" or "black" to the complexions he discusses. Learn to pay attention to the thread. How many times do I have to inform your stupid ass of this? As usual your threads consist of quoting somebody else, contributing nothing except mindless cheerleading like a teenage girl twirling a baton (or trained seal honking a horn)
signed,
lioness.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Of course while Manilius never used the actual designations of 'white' of 'black', those colors were IMPLIED in his writings, dummy! Why else would he group Egyptians, Ethiopians, and Indians in one hand but Spaniards, Germanics, Greeks, and even Syrians on another??
Does that bother you to know that he didn't group Egyptians together with Syrians or with his people (Greeks)?? I think it does. Which is why you resort to emotional ad-hominem attacks on me. Just because support Takruri's valid assertions unlike yours does not make me a "cheerleader". Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: What gets me is the dude calls Keita an "Afrocentric Fraud" which is just an unfounded slander yet posts from Mathilda's blog as if that b#tch has any credibility.
Dude is known to flip flop, in the debate on the Siwa he claimed they were Tibu Slaves, Sudanese Slaves, Chadian Slaves, now in a debate with Explorer they are West African slaves. All depending on the source his google search yields. HE even claimed the Original Berbers were replaced by Chadian slaves.
A damn joke for real..
LOL Yeah a hilarious joke at that! Remember that he stated more than once his 'belief' that Afrasian is Eurasian in origin. Once he said that, he lost all credibility. But the Sanderson Beck thing was a riot! LOL Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: you resort to emotional ad-hominem attacks on me. Just because support Takruri's valid assertions unlike yours does not make me a "cheerleader". [/QB]
When you mearly copy somebody else's post and say "right on" without contributing new information does in fact make you a cheerleader and doesn't add to the dialog. You calling my comments ad hominem? That's laughable, that's like the pot calling the kettle black. Because he Manilius group them, alTakruri groups them
Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant. flava per ingentis surgit Germania partus, 715 Gallia vicino minus est infecta rubore, asperior solidos Hispania contrahit artus. Martia Romanis urbis pater induit ora Gradivumque Venus miscens bene temperat artus, perque coloratas subtilis Graecia gentes 720 gymnasium praefert vultu fortisque palaestras, et Syriam produnt torti per tempora crines. Aethiopes maculant orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes; minus India tostos progenerat; 725a tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo 726b lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis iam propior 726a mediumque facit moderata tenorem. 725b Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris 728 exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore. adde sonos totidem vocum, totidem insere linguas et mores pro sorte paris ritusque locorum; adde genus proprium simili sub semine frugum et Cererem varia redeuntem messe per urbes nec paribus siliquas referentem viribus omnis, 735 nec te, Bacche, pari donantem munere terras atque alias aliis fundentem collibus uvas, cinnama nec totis passim nascentia campis; diversas pecudum facies propriasque ferarum et duplici clausos elephantas carcere terrae. 740 quot partes orbis, totidem sub partibus orbes, ut certis discripta nitent regionibus astra perfunduntque suo subiectas aere gentes. Laniger in medio sortitus sidera mundo, <lance ubi sol aequa pensat noctemque diemque> 744a Cancrum inter gelidumque <Caprum> per tempora veris, asserit in vires pontum quem vicerat ipse, virgine delapsa cum fratrem ad litora vexit et minui deflevit onus dorsumque levari. illum etiam venerata colit vicina Propontis et Syriae gentes et laxo Persis amictu 750 vestibus ipsa suis haerens Nilusque tumescens in Cancrum et tellus Aegypti iussa natare. Taurus habet Scythiae montes Asiamque potentem et mollis Arabas, silvarum ditia regna. Euxinus Scythicos pontus sinuatus in arcus 755 sub Geminis te, Phoebe, colit; vos Thracia, fratres, ultimus et sola vos tranans colit Indica Ganges. ardent Aethiopes Cancro, cui plurimus ignis: hoc color ipse docet. Phrygia, Nemeaee, potiris Idaeae matris famulus regnoque feroci 760 Cappadocum Armeniaeque iugis; Bithynia dives te colit et Macetum tellus, quae vicerat orbem. Virgine sub casta felix terraque marique est Rhodos, hospitium recturi principis orbem, tumque domus vere Solis, cui tota sacrata est, 765 cum caperet lumen magni sub Caesare mundi; Ioniae quoque sunt urbes et Dorica rura, Arcades antiqui celebrataque Caria fama. quod potius colat Italiam, si seligat, astrum quam quod cuncta regit, quod rerum pondera novit, 770 designat summas et iniquum separat aequo, tempora quo pendent, coeunt quo noxque diesque? Hesperiam sua Libra tenet, qua condita Roma orbis et imperium retinet discrimina rerum, lancibus et positas gentes tollitque premitque, 775 qua genitus Caesar melius nunc condidit urbem et propriis frenat pendentem nutibus orbem. inferius victae sidus Carthaginis arces et Libyam Aegyptique latus donataque rura Cyrenes lacrimis radicis Scorpios acris 780 eligit, Italiaeque tamen respectat ad undas Sardiniamque tenet fusasque per aequora terras. Cnosia Centauro tellus circumdata ponto paret, et in geminum Minois filius astrum ipse venit geminus. celeris hinc Creta sagittas 785 asserit intentosque imitatur sideris arcus. insula Trinacriae fluitantem ad iura sororem subsequitur Triviae sub eodem condita signo, proximaque Italiae tenui divisa profundo ora paris sequitur leges nec sidere rupta est. 790 tu, Capricorne, regis quidquid sub sole cadente est positum gelidamque Helicen quod tangit ab illo, Hispanas gentes et quot fert Gallia dives; teque feris dignam tantum, Germania, matrem
For this reason, various laws in the various figures disposed is a genus of men, the color of proprioque nations are formed, sociataque administer law in the limbs an equal mark the matter private treaty. Germany rises by a huge golden birth, 715 France is less than the neighboring infected shame, they Spain, contracts shillings more severe limbs. Mars, the father of the city put on the mouths of the Romans Venus is well-Gradivus miscens tempers the limbs, Greece is subtle and colored by the 720 nations prefers strong wrestling with her face to a place of exercise, and Syria by time, they betray a piece of hair. Ethiopians stain the world figure tenebrisque endowed with the nations of men less roasted India engendered; 725a FISH 726b tellusque the Egyptian Nile more gently darkened by a watered the fields of the bodies we now draw near 726a does moderate the tenor of the middle. 725b Phoebus African and sandy dust of the earth 728 drieth up the people, and the name of Mauritania titulumque bears his mouth has the very color. add as many sounds of words, the same number of group languages for equal ritusque lot of places and manners; add proper genus under the seed of the fruits of a similar harvest, and returning through the cities of Ceres various all things being equal, nor the strength of husks back, 735 nor you, Bacchus, for the same office forgiving lands they pour out to others, of other hills, grapes, nor cinnamon whole produce of the fields in all directions; propriasque different faces of wild beasts of cattle shut up in prison, double the elephants and the earth. 740 how many parts of the world, under the same number of parts of the worlds, apportioned to separate the stars shine, certain regions perfunduntque subject to air their nations. RAM has placed him in the midst of the stars of the world, <lance weighs a night where the sun is equal diemque> 744a Cancer <Caprum> by time, between the cold truths, asserts that the sea into the forces which he had conquered, Virgin coming down to the shore with his brother vexit and decrease the burden of deflevit dorsumque raised up. venerated him also cultivates the neighboring Propontis 750 nations, and loose clothing, Persians, and Syria garments, clinging fast to its Nilusque tumescens Cancer of Egypt in the commands to swim and relax. Taurus has a powerful Asiamque the mountains of Scythia Arabians and soft, a wealthy kingdoms of the woods. Scythian Sea sinuatus the sea in a bow 755 Gemini under you, Phoebus, worships you Thrace, brethren, the last and only you Tell tranans worships the Ganges. Cancer burn the Ethiopians, to whom most of fire: the color of this he teaches. Phrygia, Nemeaee, rather The servant of the mother's fierce Idaean regnoque 760 Cappadocia Armeniaeque the ridges; Bithynia rich Macetum worships you and region, which had conquered the world. Happy under the chaste Virgin by land and sea Rhodes is, the guest of the prince who was to rule the world, and then truly the house of the Sun, to whom is consecrated the whole, 765 when they caught the light of the great under Caesar of the world; Ionia also are the Dorian cities and fields, Arcadians ancient Caria celebrataque reputation. rather he cultivates that Italy, if choose, the star than that all the king's, knows that the weights of things, 770 separates points out the palms of her unjust and equitable, which depend on the times, which together night and day? Hesperia Libra holds his own, by which the foundation of Rome the world, and the government retains the differences of things, and scales have been set down tollitque premitque nations, 775 begotten Caesar founded the city which is now better their own bridles hanging on the gestures and the world. star of the towers of conquered Carthage lower Libya and the side Aegyptique donataque fields Alice in Wonderland: 780 acres of Cyrene, tears of the root chooses and Italy, however, look to the waves Fusasque seas and Sardinia holds lands. Cnosia Centaur region, surrounded by sea prepare, and in a double star of the younger son he comes to double. 785 Crete, hence the swift arrows attentively the star asserts that imitates the bow. rights flowing to the sister island of Sicily followed by Trivia founded under the same sign, Italy was divided, and nearest the depth of a thin star is not broken, it follows the laws of the mouths of equal. 790 you, Capricorn, the king of whatever falls under the sun gelidamque Helicen touches that lies from him, France bears the Spaniards, and how many rich nations; you worthy of only the wild beasts, Germany, the mother of
to say that one list of complexions is "black" and another is "white" as if these terms have a measurable meaning is false. That is an attempt to apply modern racial definitions. The skin of people has varying amounts of melanin in it and there is a wide range. Attempts to divide this wide range is racilism.
By above definitions even though all the persons above have brown skin only some are called "black" that is because the term "black" as used in modern times has racial baggage attached to it about features and hair whereas to call someone "brown" mearly states fact. Somebody might look at the above people and called some of them "sunburt". First of all they don't know what the skin tone they were born with was and secondly it is irrelevant because the people look like this on a daily basis and are dark regardless of why they are dark.
When ancient writers called someone black it did not match modern racial concepts. Therefore all of the above persons could be called black by ancient writers. The term "Moor" for example is used loosely.
example:
St. James the Moor Slayer
St. Maurice
^^^ this shows the varying conception of the European conception of Moor, likewise "black"
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
Bad example, some Maur could have called himself the Euro-Slayer and also slayed their Moorish convert allies.
Anyways.
Afrorum? @ alTakruri, where'd you get that from, who were they?
From page 1 of this thread, we have:
quote: ..Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore.
Bright (sunny) African and sandy dust of the earth drieth up the people, and the name of Mauritania, a label his mouth bears has the very color.
So does Afrorum even refer to a people here? Doesn't really look like it.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Ho hum. Typical roorag from a phony with the ****beat out of him unable to cite ancient support texts.
No, what I actually see is that you ignore most of what I post only to to attack certian quotes that you THINK you can refute.
Ephorus' view that Aethiopes overran Libya Richard corroborates with local and incoming types of blacks as the Libyan and Gaetuli base upon which others admixed.
Sure it does. I love how you take the opportinity to misconstrue the whole thing...that they overran Libya, when the actual source sets clearly defined geographical parameters.
Where are your quotes of a Hispaniard, Roman or Greek so black you don't want to run into down town at midnight?
Umm an Hispaniard?? What is that question supposed to prove? It's not as if I am saying there were no Blacks in Africa. Just most of the ones North of the Atlas were not. How in your childish mind does Juvenal's satire prove me wrong? Lol!
You have slandered every notice given of blacks in North Africa making you the envious racialist hater of the blood in your veins
Oh Geez! I have slandered Blacks because I don't believe in your horse sh!t. kind of sensitive aren't we? Is that your akward emotional appeal. You expect me to side with your view because I'm part Black? Lol. How pathetic you are.
No coherency in your "argument" just the raving fear of a poor sick soul turned inside out in conundrum about his own hybrid makeup always beating down blacks always playing up whites.
You're just an empty showboat with no primary documentation just rehashing 17th-20th century opinions as if they are the voice of the ancients.
I wish I had a hankie for your tears..
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Simply put, "a great part of the sea-board" north of Dyris is a subset of the whole said sea-boardwhich stretches on the Atlantic side of Morocco from modern Tiznit (re Anti-Atlas) or Essaouira (re High Atlas) to Morocco's Mediterranean side at Nador (re Middle Atlas).
I see you already slipped in a little lie right in the first sentence. The seabord in question is not said to be North of Dryis. Otherwise they would have the Aethiopians overran Libya all the way up the northen coast. but they are careful not to say that. Why? The seaboard is to the West. To say the Mediterranean coast is a subset of the enitire seaboard is some specious Bs and you know it. Apparently many on here are too dumb to see it. The ancients made a distinction beteween the Mediterranean and the Atalantic outside the straits of Gibraltar
Some Aethiopes who left Dyris to "occupy a great part of the sea-board" would have traveled the Moulouya river for direct easy travel to the Mediterranean just as easily as moving northward along the coast of the Atlantic by others.
I'm sure that would have been noteworthy for the ancients to have mentioned, don't you?
Since Strabo uses the word sea-board in the singular not the plural we see the whole of what the Romans called Mauretania Tingitana is involved.
Bwaa haa haa ha ha ha!
That's cute. Now let me break it down for you. Many of the ancient Europeans referred to North Africans as being dark. The same is true today. As Manilius and other have implied they often made a distinction between swarthy folks and Blacks. I already quoted Arrian and Strabo who compared Egyptians to the lighter North Indians rather than to blacks. Manilius also has a color scheme whose bitting irony was not lost on the Lioness, but you were too dense between the ears to appreciate, and that is he has your precious mauretanians as being the lightest of all African peoples! And when you throw in the pale skinned libyans that we know existed and The leukaethiopians and light Garamantes reported by herodotus, one wonders just how light these folks had to be. And with the quotes from Arab scholars about so many White Berbers aand a demarcation in Africa separating a land of the blacks from the land of the Whites which corresponds more or less to current present racial boundaries, what is there really that an honest person can argue against?
The cards are stacked against you.
Btw congratualtions! Jari, Dejhuti and others seem to look up to you and value your opinion. That qualifies you as the bonfide king of dummies!
But you will never get past me with your specious arguments and bogus interpretations. It's fun to watch you try though.. Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
You have to be kidding me if you think the "whites" of the Islamic world is equal to the definition of Whites today. First off the Islamic texts and geographers believed in the idea of the 7 climate zones, with the Med as the "Temperate Zone" which was seen as being the habitation of those descending from "Shem". This today would be dismissed as idiotic but people who need to prove their agenda will use it to prove no Blacks were in North Africa..LMAO.
Even the Byzantines were included as Shemites to further this "Temperate Zone" ideology. You realize in the same quote these Muslim Geographers believed that if a Mehgrebi moved to the Sudan after 7 Generations his people would resemble Sudanis and if Sudanis moved to the Temerate Zone after 7 Generations they would resemble the people of the Temperate Zones..
Complete Rubbish.
This is why you have Ibn Bhattuta distinguishing between the "Land of the "Whites" and Land of the Blacks, which Bidan had nothing really to do with "White" but with Temperate Zones and Sudan with extreemly dark people.
You don't know if the Bidanes were Brown Skinned, Pale Skinned, Light Brown etc. Any researcher not familiar with Arabic and able to demonstrate the Original Arabic Texts and Able to put these Texts into their time frame should use Medieval Muslim Geography with Caution, this includes Al Jahiz Boasts of the Sudan to Bidan...which was nothing more than the boasts of one Climate Zone the "Bilad Es Sudan against the "Temperate/Bidan" Climate Zone.
One should use these with caution and not try to racialize and force Western Racial thinking on Texts that have nothing to do with such constructs.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: That's cute. Now let me break it down for you. Many of the ancient Europeans referred to North Africans as being dark. The same is true today. As Manilius and other have implied they often made a distinction between swarthy folks and Blacks. I already quoted Arrian and Strabo who compared Egyptians to the lighter North Indians rather than to blacks. Manilius also has a color scheme whose bitting irony was not lost on the Lioness, but you were too dense between the ears to appreciate, and that is he has your precious mauretanians as being the lightest of all African peoples! And when you throw in the pale skinned libyans that we know existed and The leukaethiopians and light Garamantes reported by herodotus, one wonders just how light these folks had to be. And with the quotes from Arab scholars about so many White Berbers aand a demarcation in Africa separating a land of the blacks from the land of the Whites which corresponds more or less to current present racial boundaries, what is there really that an honest person can argue against?
The cards are stacked against you.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
It amazes me how one can lie and distort time after time. Were you not given scholarly sources on the Subjects you just tried to distort?? Whats wrong Garrig, no white supremist, Anti black website that disorts Muslim Geography and omits valuable information on the Andalucian history to Copy N Paste from??
Is this why you constantly need to lie and distort??
PHny, Mela and Ptolemy all refer to the Leucaethiopes, but they give no description of the people thus designated.
Pliny in his Lib. v. cap. 8, Hist. Natur. writes : Interiori autem ambitu Africae ad meridiem versus superque Gaetulos, inter- venientibus desertis, primi omnium Libyaegyptii, deinde Leucaethiopes habitant.
Translated: But more than the area of the interior of Africa to the south towards the Gaetulians, between- came the deserts, the first of all Libyaegyptii, and then dwell Leucaethiopes.
Agathemenos retires again behind those convenient intervening deserts, and merely says that west of Egypt are situated among other nations the Aeu/cat^toTj-es.
The Fact that the Leukoathiopians have no description and the fact they are identified with "Athiopies" is further Damagine to your case.
On the Garamantes..
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: The Taureg are still lightskinned as compared to other Africans, and the Garamantes were described as Athipies meaning blacks.
I think the Taureg still resemble how the Garamantians looked. Some are Dark most are light skinned. .
Your scrambling, lying and disortions in a failed attempt to exclude blacks from North Africa and among the Berbers fails miserably.
Not only is other Etymology, descriptions and art from both Egyptian and Greco-Roman sources but there are black Berbers today.
I know you wish you dismiss it away with a wave of your hand but the world don't work like that Bub..
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Boy, you must think you can slip and slide your way out of this and its not going to happen.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Now let me break it down for you. Many of the ancient Europeans referred to North Africans as being dark. The same is true today. As Manilius and other have implied they often made a distinction between swarthy folks and Blacks. I already quoted Arrian and Strabo who compared Egyptians to the lighter North Indians rather than to blacks. Manilius
Not really you simply cherry picked the Lightest Indians you can find. Simple research shows that there are quite a number or Dark Brown and Reddish Brown Indians to contrast with the Black Southern Dravidians.
Any one with a Functioning Brain can go an see excactly what "Athiopies" meant to the Greeks.
^^^^ Majority of Africans are not that dark, If you are basing your assertions that the Egyptians, black and Sahran Berbers did not look like that well..Duh..LOL,
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: precious mauretanians as being the lightest of all African peoples!
Yes, but You an Lioness seem to avoid the Shade Variation or Europeans and Asiatics according to Manillius.
Manilius' order of white complexions from the most light to the least light - Germania - Gallia - Hispania - Romanis - Graecia - Syrium
Notice again the the Mauritanians were not part of this group...Sad for you..this destroyes your attempts to enforce racialism on Muslim Geographers(more on that later)...
"Shomarka Keita, a biological anthropologist from Howard University, has claimed that populations in Carthage circa 200 BC and northern Algeria 1500 BC were very diverse. As a group, they plotted closest to the populations of Northern Egypt and intermediate to Northern Europeans and tropical Africans. Keita claimed that "the data supported the comments from ancient authors observed by classicists: everything from fair-skinned blonds to peoples who were dark-skinned 'Ethiopian' or part Ethiopian in appearance."
Carthage.. because you love you blubbery lipped True Negro..
Bertholon and Chantre (1913)noted non- Negroid and Negroid crania in neolithic Carthaginian graves, with the former predominating. Daniels (1970) reported that pre- and post-Roman Gara- mantian remains from southern Libya were Mediterranean. Negroid. and hybrid.
To what extent Carthaginians employed Negro slaves is doubtful. Punic cemeteries have yielded numerous skulls of a negroid character, and there were some very dark-skinned Africans, perhaps negroes, in the Carthaginian army which invaded Sicily early in the fifth century B.C. Frontinus tells us that as prisoners they were paraded naked before the Greeks soldiery in order to bring the Carthaginians into contempt. On the other hand, as the Carthaginians customarily enslved prisoners of war and the victims of their piracy, two sources of supply which they must have found very fruiful, they were far from being dependent on Africa for slave labour. It is unlikely that they hesitated to enslaved as many Berbers as they required, nor were so brutal a people likely to have drawn the line at doing the same to their own peasantry. The evidence of negro blood, is, however, significant and it seems probable that they imported slaves from the Fezzan. It was a likely source, for the Garamantes cannot have hunted the Troglodyte Ethiopians except to enslave them. The slave trade with the Fezzan may have been important tot he Carthaginians, but there are no grounds for assuming that it was.
The golden trade of the Moors: West African kingdoms in the fourteenth century By E. W. Bovill, Robin Hallet pp. 21-22 (Much thanks to Brada for providing this)
In the Punic burial grounds, negroid remains were not rare and there were black auxiliaries in the Carthaginian army who were certainly not Nilotics. Furthermore, if we are to believe Diodorus(XX, 57.5), a lieutenant of Agathocles in northern Tuninisa at the close of the fourth century before our era overcame a people who skin was similar to the Ethiopian'. There is much evidence of the presence of 'Ethiopians' on the southern borders of Africa Minor.
quote:
ABSTRACT: The origin of the Punic population of Ibiza has been a much debated issue, not only in the field of anthropology, but in archaeology as well. The establishment of rural settlements and the apparent demographic growth throughout the island, especially from the 4th century BC onwards, has been mainly recognised as the result of a colonization process involving a large-scale immigration of people. The material culture from this period seems to indicate that the probable origin of these immigrants was the area of the Central Mediterranean, especially Carthage. This paper compares measurements from Ibizan skulls dating from between the sixth and second centuries BC with craniometric data from modern American populations by employing the forensic discriminant functions of the FORDISC 2.0 (Ousley and Jantz, 1996) computer program. In spite of the method’s limitations, the results seem to suggest the presence of several individuals of North African and sub-Saharan ancestry in Punic Ibiza.
"Snowden (1970) and Desanges (1981) reference various writers’ physical descriptions of the ancient Maghreb’s inhabitants. In various writers’ physical descriptions of the ancient Maghreb’s inhabitants. In addition to the presence of fair-skinned blonds, various “Ethiopian” or “part-Ethiopian” groups are described, near the coast and on the southern slopes of the Atlas mountains. “Ethiopians,” meaning dark-skinned peoples usually having “ulotrichous” (wooly) hair, are noted in various Greek accounts and European coinage (Snowden, 1970). Hiernaux (1975) interprets the finding of “subsaharan” population affinities in living Maghrebans as being solely the result of the medieval transsaharan slave trade; it is clear that this is not the case. Furthermore, the blacks of the ancient Maghreb were apparently not foreign or a caste." [/QB][/QUOTE]
Some of the Africans at Tunis descendants of the Africans at Carthage..
quote:Originally posted by liar7: And when you throw in the pale skinned libyans that we know existed and The leukaethiopians and light Garamantes reported by herodotus, one wonders just how light these folks had to be.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
You are stupid if you think the Saharan Berbers(Sanhadja) were "Whites". Your misquoting and distorting of Muslim Geographers only proves you are unlearned in such subjects. Had you came to read Muslim Geographers from an unbiased point of view you might have caught on to this, but it seems you only are familiar with these works due to drive to make North African and Moors deviod of blacks.
The useage of Bidan as opposed to Sudan to the Mehgreb was due to the Muslim Geographers training on the 7 climate zones of the world. If you read some of these works you will often find contradicting and confusing statements. This is why Al-Jahiz Kitab "The Boasts of the Sudan to the Bidan was Written. In other words a boast of one climate zone over another. If you read Al Jahiz's works many of the inhabitants of the "Temperate Zone" would be "Black People" due to their dark skin...Further damaging to your case is that None folks of these were labeled Under "Red" like the Byzantines, Persian and Rus..LMAO.
Some Saharan people/Berbers..
Must be why Ibn Butlan said..
"“The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters, active in service, suited both to motherhood and to pleasure, for they are the most solicitous in caring for their children. “"
-Ibn Butlan
11th Century..
Nasr i Khusrau, an Iranian ruler described the Masmuda soldiers of the Fatimid dynasty as “black Africans”.
-11th Century
See Yaacov Lev, “Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094″, International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies, 19.3 (1987) p. 342.
(At the moment the published DBM list contains no troops that fit this description, and the most likely candidates at this date are probably the Berbers. The Persian traveller Nasir-i Khusrau described Fatimid Masmuda infantry as armed with spear and sword (Yaacov Lev, "Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094", International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies 19.3 (1987), p.342; although Nasir-i Khusrau for some reason describes them as black Africans, the Masmuda are a Berber confederacy).)
The Taureq Bani Tanamek were counted among the Sanhadja.
Description of Yussef Tachfin leader of the Almoravid Berbers(Sanhadja)..
Yusuf was of “brown color”, of “middle height” with , “ thin, little beard, soft voice” and “woolly hair”
-Roudh el-Kartas” (History of the Rulers of Morocco) by Abd Allah, and A.Beaumier’s French translation of the 14th century work,
You blabbering, and copy n pasint of poorly researched Eurocentric websites won't make the Truth go away. The historical fact of Black Berbers..
^^^^ Half Italian Mutt Septimius compared to his Middle Eastern Syrium Wife, beautifully displays why Manillius has the Mauretanians as blacks, that white blood was not enough to lighten his skin to his "Middle Eastern" Syrium Wife.
Moorish Men Algeria
Garrig the silly clown's Bidanes AKA Whites..
quote:Originally posted by Garrig the Silly Clown: And with the quotes from Arab scholars about so many White Berbers aand a demarcation in Africa separating a land of the blacks from the land of the Whites which corresponds more or less to current present racial boundaries, what is there really that an honest person can argue against?
S
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
where's the fro?
.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Alot of Garrig's arguments are copy-n-pasted from here..
With an occasional mention of Guanches, and the occasial posting info from Mathilda's blog.
Notice they never give info on the Muwalladun conversion, the Saqalibba and the slave MArket of NAtive Iberians in Andalucia and North Africa.
lol. yes, That is his primarily source. And it has been for many years. A while ago it was linked to an extremist white website.
When noticed the root directory, they quickly delinking it. Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
Family of Emperor Septimius Severus, ca. 200 A.D., with his sons Caracalla and Geta and his wife Julia Donna. Geta's image has been scratched out. Tempera on wood, 30.5 cm diameter. Staaliche Museen zu Berlin, Germany.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: __________________________________________________________
to say that one list of complexions is "black" and another is "white" as if these terms have a measurable meaning is false. That is an attempt to apply modern racial definitions. The skin of people has varying amounts of melanin in it and there is a wide range. Attempts to divide this wide range is racilism.
By above definitions even though all the persons above have brown skin only some are called "black" that is because the term "black" as used in modern times has racial baggage attached to it about features and hair whereas to call someone "brown" mearly states fact. Somebody might look at the above people and called some of them "sunburt". First of all they don't know what the skin tone they were born with was and secondly it is irrelevant because the people look like this on a daily basis and are dark regardless of why they are dark.
When ancient writers called someone black it did not match modern racial concepts. Therefore all of the above persons could be called black by ancient writers. The term "Moor" for example is used loosely.
example:
St. James the Moor Slayer
St. Maurice
^^^ this shows the varying conception of the European conception of Moor, likewise "black"
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: Family of Emperor Septimius Severus, ca. 200 A.D., with his sons Caracalla and Geta and his wife Julia Donna. Geta's image has been scratched out. Tempera on wood, 30.5 cm diameter. Staaliche Museen zu Berlin, Germany.
this is your rebuttal to post the same picture I posted?
cry me an ocean
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
where's the fro?
Excuse me, but these are Iranians, with curly hair.lol
However, they aren't white. I do agree with that part.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
When all attempts at distortion and white washing fails just Cherry pick, LMAO at the Lyinass pulling a page from Mike's book..LOL..
Even his faded image shows a clearly Darker Skinned Septimius compared to the Average Middle Eastern and clearly than the Romans.
Compare to his Syrium Wife. ..MMMM..MMMMM..MMMMMMMMMM....
NO wonder Manillius put Mauritania with the Dark Skinned people, Imagine the Syrium is the darkest of the Leukoderms yet she sticks out like a sore thumb compared to her Half Berber Husband..
To bad!!
Septimus' Dark Mulatto skin can't be white washed, it was a sad, sad day for the melanophobes, Liars, and distorters when the Roman artists decided to color him his natural color.
Too bad...
Soo..Sooo Sad.. Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: Family of Emperor Septimius Severus, ca. 200 A.D., with his sons Caracalla and Geta and his wife Julia Donna. Geta's image has been scratched out. Tempera on wood, 30.5 cm diameter. Staaliche Museen zu Berlin, Germany.
this is your rebuttal to post the same picture I posted?
cry me an ocean
It has nothing to do with rebuttal, I just posted source info on the art which you left out.
You should say thank you.
Now begone and cry me a river. Salt lake city.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
and so far I have not spoken of Septimius' son Caracalla..
because at this point its beating a dead horse..Septimuius' Dark Skin speaks for itself, but the fact that the Syrian and Italian blood could not starighten out that nappy hair on Caracalla's head and chin is the final nail in the coffin of those claiming Septimius was not a dark skinned Mulatto with African phenotype.
Now go fetch and cherry pick some Persian with hair as Tightly curled as Caracalla's. Stick your head back in the sand, because this is yet another body blow....
another loss...
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: Family of Emperor Septimius Severus, ca. 200 A.D., with his sons Caracalla and Geta and his wife Julia Donna. Geta's image has been scratched out. Tempera on wood, 30.5 cm diameter. Staaliche Museen zu Berlin, Germany.
Mulattos don't have this hair type which shows distinct straight Parallel hiar strands which form larger curls
as opposed to kinky hair like Barack and I have in which each hair starnd is coiled to begin with
you have got to be kidding me
as per skin tone: Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
You Lost, at least garrig is creative in his disortions, you on the other hand..LOL.
If you think that Septimus' hair was naturally that way, then this is just more proof of denial. but I understand the beating hurt..
Africans with Styled hair..
Mulattoes with Curled hair
but at this point its just desperation..
Lioness knows full well Africans can have wavy hair..
Lioness in another mind set..
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [QB]
Some people would say she's black also. Fine , but she has also has some traits from her mother who is of Scottish, Irish and Italian descent /QB]
You can find her desperatly trying to explain away Africans with wavy hair due to admixture all over E.S..
Yet now she wants to play dumb and claim Mulattoes can't have or produce wavy hair..
Sorry for her Caracalla left his hair unstyled..
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Mulattos don't have this hair type which shows distinct straight Parallel hiar strands which form larger curls
as opposed to kinky hair like Barack and I have in which each hair starnd is coiled to begin with Blah Blah Blah
LMAO @ the cherry picked Images of Europeans and Non Africans. As I said when all else fails simply cherry pick. To bad for the bitch Septimus was Half Italian, Half Berber.
No need for me to cherry pick, Septimus Mulatto skin speaks for itself, and Caracalla's African phenotype is the nail in the coffin.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Mulatto skin speaks for itself
_____^^^ genius statement
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
^^^this is "styled hair?"
we have a match
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Down to a one line statement,.... Ill take it as your admission of defeat. I was hoping to whip and beat your ass some more with more Images of Septimus and Caracalla but I see you have learned your lesson and bucked your head in submission...
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Down to a one line statement,.... Ill take it as your admission of defeat. I was hoping to whip and beat your ass some more with more Images of Septimus and Caracalla but I see you have learned your lesson and bucked your head in submission...
If Septimus had a brown skin tone it supports what I have been saying all along that that who the Europeans called Moors were not always pitch black people heads seen on some some heraldry some of them were medium skin tones like mulattoes, like many Arabs, such as:
and Berbers such as:
this mixture of people were called Moors by the Europeans at time of the conquest of Iberia
later after the Moors lost Iberia, and earlier in parts of Europe not conquered by the Muslims, the term Moor became associated with any African, and stereotyped as pitch black mascots for herladry, converts to Christainity, servants and freed servants. Most of these representations were not even of people from North Africa but were of Ethiopians and other East Africans, get it straight brother
all of the above person would have been called , Moor or black by ancient roman writers. Even in Holland to day, they call schools which have mostly a lage number of Turks and Arabs of middle skin tones and a much smaller amount of dark skinned African people students of "black schools" even though according to American concepts such schools would not be called "black" This is because the definition varies
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
^^^^ I agree the Moors and Berbers don't have to be "Pitch Black" I think they would be Dark to Light Brown skin. My position has never been to deny the white Berbers but to shed light onto the Black Berbers. In this day and age Berber has become synomous with White Skinned Kaybyles when black Berbers have existed and Berbers come from blacks from the Eastern Desert.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LOL @ the Lyinass wriggling like the WORM not 'snake' she truly is!! This is why the Lyinass likes to rely on unpainted artwork and not the painted ones!! Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
1).
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: Afrorum? @ alTakruri, where'd you get that from, who were they?
Manilius Astromomica 4.728 those between Egypt and Mauretania, including the Aourigha, who were the ones who at first rented land to the Phoenician founders of Carthage. No longer inhabiting that area, the Afer did continue to dwell south of it and far into the desert.
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: From page 1 of this thread, we have:
quote: ..Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore.
Bright (sunny) African and sandy dust of the earth drieth up the people, and the name of Mauritania, a label his mouth bears has the very color.
Besides unintelligible machine "translation" that Wally and Lyin'Arse posted, there are other poor attempts at English translation of the Latin like the one done back in the 17th century. DJ's cumpà, whom you quote, did do a decent job and I'd like to collaborate with him. Meanwhile, here's mine
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: So does Afrorum even refer to a people here? Doesn't really look like it.
The name we use for the continent Africa ultimately derives from a word that entered the Indo-European languages as a borrowing from Punic or the indigenees themselves. Afrorum is the Latin plural of Afer (African), the folk Phoenicians bargained with at what's now far NE Tunisia (see this TNV thread on the Etymology of Africa).
2).
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Of course while Manilius never used the actual designations of 'white' of 'black', those colors were IMPLIED in his writings, dummy! Why else would he group Egyptians, Ethiopians, and Indians in one hand but Spaniards, Germanics, Greeks, and even Syrians on another??
Does that bother you to know that he didn't group Egyptians together with Syrians or with his people (Greeks)?? I think it does. Which is why you resort to emotional ad-hominem attacks on me. Just because support Takruri's valid assertions unlike yours does not make me a "cheerleader".
Ah, but his lead in before ranking both the whites and blacks starting each group with the "yardstick" people dichotomized by colour -- German whitest / Aethiopian blackest -- does more than just imply colour. He outright tells us at line 712 that skin colour (complexion) is his primary variation for arranging the one human race.
"Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant"
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: He outright tells us at line 712 that skin colour (complexion) is his primary variation for arranging the one human race.
"Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant" [/QB]
In the Astronmica he mentions various different complexions, a spectrum of gradations which you say comprise "one human race". He mentioned eleven types an arbitrary number.
It is fair to say some people have darker skin than others, others have lighter skin although there is no precision in these words, it is relative in many cases.
But to take a number of descriptions, in this case eleven and divide that eleven into just two groups called under unecessary sterotypical names "black" and "white" which do not reflect the actual color, that sort of over simplification is what people call "race" and dividing the eleven types that Manilius mentioned into a grouping of two is not something Manilius did in the quote from Astronomica. Ask the average person on the street "is a dark skin person a race" ? The will probably say no it's just a skin type. Then ask what are examples of races? They will likely say black, white and Asian. I advise people don't play games with the lioness and try to pretend that calling brown skinned people black has no racial implications, no baggage, no history as to such a word being used. That's like Barack calling me his nigga in public and claiming it's a term of endearment. It's not going to happen, even in private
The above quote in latin from Astronomica translated (bold) with more:
will be the ends of the pontusque to be called, which divides the stars one by one into the parts of God each has his own, and gave to the protection of the kingdoms throughout the world cities and their own nations and an added deep, assert outstanding stars in which the forces. 700 and signs is arranged as a human figure, and, although he goes throughout the whole of the protection of the body, and goes out on its own divided artubus (for the ram to the head, clings to the neck of Taurus, Gemini consider to be under arms, breast Cancer, 705 you shoulder, Nemeaee, they call that you, O Virgin, Libra cultivates the groin hind-quarters, and the scorpion reigns, HOLDING A BOW and female, Capricorn knees and loved, cruraque defends Young man, the steps of the fishes), other lands claims for himself, so another star. 710 For this reason , various laws in the various figures disposed is a genus of men, the color of proprioque nations are formed, sociataque administer law in the limbs an equal mark the matter private treaty. Germany rises by a huge golden birth, 715 France is less than the neighboring infected shame, they Spain, contracts shillings more severe limbs. Mars, the father of the city put on the mouths of the Romans
^^^ what we have is poetic ramblings and a viewpoint derived from Astrology.
From this we are supposed to go beyond skin color descriptions and translate it into some sort of definative racial map?
lioness productions 2011
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
^ @Lyin'Arse You call that garble a translation? Just another Lyin'Arse Fuh-cuption. The least you could do is use Leob's.
-----------------------------------------
1).
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: Afrorum? @ alTakruri, where'd you get that from, who were they?
Manilius Astromomica 4.728 those between Egypt and Mauretania, including the Aourigha, who were the ones who at first rented land to the Phoenician founders of Carthage. No longer inhabiting that area, the Afer did continue to dwell south of it and far into the desert.
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: From page 1 of this thread, we have:
quote: ..Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore.
Bright (sunny) African and sandy dust of the earth drieth up the people, and the name of Mauritania, a label his mouth bears has the very color.
Besides unintelligible machine "translation" that Wally and Lyin'Arse posted, there are other poor attempts at English translation of the Latin like the one done back in the 17th century. DJ's cumpà, whom you quote, did do a decent job and I'd like to collaborate with him. Meanwhile, here's mine
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: So does Afrorum even refer to a people here? Doesn't really look like it.
The name we use for the continent Africa ultimately derives from a word that entered the Indo-European languages as a borrowing from Punic or the indigenees themselves. Afrorum is the Latin plural of Afer (African), the folk Phoenicians bargained with at what's now far NE Tunisia (see this TNV thread on the Etymology of Africa).
2).
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Of course while Manilius never used the actual designations of 'white' of 'black', those colors were IMPLIED in his writings, dummy! Why else would he group Egyptians, Ethiopians, and Indians in one hand but Spaniards, Germanics, Greeks, and even Syrians on another??
Does that bother you to know that he didn't group Egyptians together with Syrians or with his people (Greeks)?? I think it does. Which is why you resort to emotional ad-hominem attacks on me. Just because support Takruri's valid assertions unlike yours does not make me a "cheerleader".
Ah, but his lead in before ranking both the whites and blacks starting each group with the "yardstick" people dichotomized by colour -- German whitest / Aethiopian blackest -- does more than just imply colour. He outright tells us at line 712 that skin colour (complexion) is his primary variation for arranging the one human race.
"Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant"
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Manilius composed a hierarchy of the white and black peoples known in his day by descending intensity of pallor or color in lines 711-730 of his Astronomicon as below.
quote: lines 711-714 Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant.
lines 715-722 flava per ingentis surgit Germania partus, Gallia vicino minus est infecta rubore, asperior solidos Hispania contrahit artus. Martia Romanis urbis pater induit ora Gradivumque Venus miscens bene temperat artus, perque coloratas subtilisGraecia gentes gymnasium praefert vultu fortisque palaestras, et Syriam produnt torti per tempora crines.
lines 723-730 Aethiopes maculant orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes; minus Indiatostos progenerat; tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis iam propior mediumque facit moderata tenorem. Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore.
Anyone with basic analytical skills will produce the same skeletal list from the reference text. It's impossible to derive any other ordered list than that which I post.
First Manilius orders white complexions from the most light to the least light (in lines 715-22) - Germania - Gallia - Hispania - Romanis - Graecia - Syriam.
Then Manilius' order of black complexions from the most dark to the least dark are (as in lines 723-730)
- Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania.
Manilius did the above after announcing the fact of variation in the one human race, its colours being his primary consideration of human anatomy (opening lines 711-714).
Manilius made a hierarchy. He wasn't random in the least. He starts from Hyperborean to Mediterranean and concludes with Tropical to Mediterranean. This is the Graeco-Islamic zone system of lands and peoples under the Sun through the Zodiac.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
.
look at alTak he keeps doing the same thing over and over again.
Manilius mentions, within a poetically written text, eleven skin complection types. What is the bitch God or something? I digress..
Nowhere does he break down his mentions into "black" and "white" or even arrange them in list form.
alTak is being dishonest about this. He posts the latin only and then inserts the alTaky concept that we are looking at a "heirarchy" an inappropriate racially tinged word to apply.
Then he takes Manilius mention of eleven skin complections and tries to categorize it into the two part system racial system called "the world is either black or white". as if Manilus did that in the text. He did not.
That's alTacky trickery. It's spurious. It's fradualant scholarship and imposes race concepts which people in this forum try to pretend they aren't a part of. this is a bust,
So when we look at eleven different shades of people's skin what is the cutoff point that makes one person black and another white? What is the middle within this scale which divides people into "black" and "white" ?
There is none the concept is mythological.
Lp
.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
1).
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: Afrorum? @ alTakruri, where'd you get that from, who were they?
Manilius Astromomica 4.728 those between Egypt and Mauretania, including the Aourigha, who were the ones who at first rented land to the Phoenician founders of Carthage. No longer inhabiting that area, the Afer did continue to dwell south of it and far into the desert.
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: From page 1 of this thread, we have:
quote: ..Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore.
Bright (sunny) African and sandy dust of the earth drieth up the people, and the name of Mauritania, a label his mouth bears has the very color.
Besides unintelligible machine "translation" that Wally and Lyin'Arse posted, there are other poor attempts at English translation of the Latin like the one done back in the 17th century. DJ's cumpà, whom you quote, did do a decent job and I'd like to collaborate with him. Meanwhile, here's mine
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: So does Afrorum even refer to a people here? Doesn't really look like it.
The name we use for the continent Africa ultimately derives from a word that entered the Indo-European languages as a borrowing from Punic or the indigenees themselves. Afrorum is the Latin plural of Afer (African), the folk Phoenicians bargained with at what's now far NE Tunisia (see this TNV thread on the Etymology of Africa).
2).
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Of course while Manilius never used the actual designations of 'white' of 'black', those colors were IMPLIED in his writings, dummy! Why else would he group Egyptians, Ethiopians, and Indians in one hand but Spaniards, Germanics, Greeks, and even Syrians on another??
Does that bother you to know that he didn't group Egyptians together with Syrians or with his people (Greeks)?? I think it does. Which is why you resort to emotional ad-hominem attacks on me. Just because support Takruri's valid assertions unlike yours does not make me a "cheerleader".
Ah, but his lead in before ranking both the whites and blacks starting each group with the "yardstick" people dichotomized by colour -- German whitest / Aethiopian blackest -- does more than just imply colour. He outright tells us at line 712 that skin colour (complexion) is his primary variation for arranging the one human race.
"Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant"
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Manilius composed a hierarchy of the white and black peoples known in his day by descending intensity of pallor or color in lines 711-730 of his Astronomicon as below.
quote: lines 711-714 Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant.
lines 715-722 flava per ingentis surgit Germania partus, Gallia vicino minus est infecta rubore, asperior solidos Hispania contrahit artus. Martia Romanis urbis pater induit ora Gradivumque Venus miscens bene temperat artus, perque coloratas subtilisGraecia gentes gymnasium praefert vultu fortisque palaestras, et Syriam produnt torti per tempora crines.
lines 723-730 Aethiopes maculant orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes; minus Indiatostos progenerat; tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis iam propior mediumque facit moderata tenorem. Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore.
Anyone with basic analytical skills will produce the same skeletal list from the reference text. It's impossible to derive any other ordered list than that which I post.
First Manilius orders white complexions from the most light to the least light (in lines 715-22) - Germania - Gallia - Hispania - Romanis - Graecia - Syriam.
Then Manilius' order of black complexions from the most dark to the least dark are (as in lines 723-730)
- Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania.
Manilius did the above after announcing the fact of variation in the one human race, its colours being his primary consideration of human anatomy (opening lines 711-714).
Manilius made a hierarchy. He wasn't random in the least. He starts from Hyperborean to Mediterranean and concludes with Tropical to Mediterranean. This is the Graeco-Islamic zone system of lands and peoples under the Sun through the Zodiac.
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
^Thanx.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Manilius composed a hierarchy of the white and black peoples known in his day by descending intensity of pallor or color in lines 711-730 of his Astronomicon as below.
this statement is a lie.
Manilius mentions the skin tones of even nationalities. He does not mention them in the context of "black" and "white" although alTak and others wish he did because they believe it is prime importants that all people fit into either "black" or "white" categories
lines 711-714 Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant.
lines 715-722 flava per ingentis surgit Germania partus, Gallia vicino minus est infecta rubore, asperior solidos Hispania contrahit artus. Martia Romanis urbis pater induit ora Gradivumque Venus miscens bene temperat artus, perque coloratas subtilisGraecia gentes gymnasium praefert vultu fortisque palaestras, et Syriam produnt torti per tempora crines.
lines 723-730 Aethiopes maculant orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes; minus Indiatostos progenerat; tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis iam propior mediumque facit moderata tenorem. Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore. [/QUOTE]
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Anyone with basic analytical skills will produce the same skeletal list from the reference text. It's impossible to derive any other ordered list than that which I post.
you'll notice he does this over and over agin like a broken record. He says anybody will interpret the text as he does and fit it into the two part "black" and "white" system. Of course he doesn't post what he thinks is a good translation of the above in addition to the latin he just posts the latin and encourages the gullible "trust me"
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
First Manilius orders white complexions from the.....
Then Manilius' order of black complexions from the most dark to the least dark are (as in lines 723-730)
This is a lie. He mentions them one after the other not in two groupings
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Manilius did the above after announcing the fact of variation in the one human race, its colours being his primary consideration of human anatomy (opening lines 711-714).
what a hypocrite. Manilius mentioned the skin complection of eleven nationalities. After alTakruri tries to force "black" and "white" separation onto the list he tries to cover his ass by talking about "one human race" absolutely pathetic I have buried this sucker twleve times but the zombie keeps wandering. Now he's gonna come in with more latin. throw around some terms like "Hyperborean" or the "Graeco-Islamic zone". Hope we get intimidated by the academia and assume whatever he says must be right.
Lp
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Awe, the poor lyinass baby just can't get over the FACT that the Egyptians were grouped closer to Ethiopians than to Syrians or Greeks. Whine all you want you lying worm, but you can't wriggle your way out of this one! You obviously regret bringing up Manilius's quote now, don't ya? Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
^ Really
Manilius' work Astronomicon is obviously about astrology. Astrology's main feature is the Sun around the Signs of the Zodiac. The Sun imparted complexion according to the Greco-Roman mentality.
In looking at lands and peoples in astrological regards to planet earth there is a Hyperborian zone which is the furthest north, an Equatorial/ Tropical zone which is the furthest south and a Mediterranean zone which is at the center in the Greek and Roman idea. These are the two antipodes, each from their extreme to their moderate levels.
What more natural then to list the northern extreme and proceed to the north Mediterranean and then to list the southern extreme and proceed to the south Mediterranean?
Within G-R limit of knowledge of course the Hyperborean people furthest from the sun are the whitest and folks' complexions become less extremely white as a nation is distanced from Ultima Thule.
Likewise Tropical people (Greco-Latin "science" posited that people could not survive Equatorial levels of heat) nearest the sun are the blackest with decreasing coloured nations as they distance from Equatoria (a modification of the Phaeton myth).
This is precisely what Manilius does starting with the whitest farthest north people his Germans to the most centrally located and least white Syrians
then from the other "pole"
starting with the blackest farthest south people his Aethiopians to the most centrally located and least black Mauretanians.
Manilius manifestly composed an order. Manilius did not leap about at random. Manilius wrote genus (race in the singular). Manilius wrote variasque figuras (varying features). Manilius recognized one human race varying in features.
Those who can't support their argument academically using the Latin and the Greco-Roman view of their world and its people applied to the text in essence have no argument only sympathy, belief, and feelings.
They need to stfu and learn.
What dope eschews Latin based study of a poetic work written in Latin yet offers an unintelligible machine "translation"? Again Loeb offers a fairly accurate translation of 4.711-730.
A good student/seeker like Jari for instance has grasped early Islamic historians knew about and expanded on the Greco-Latin system of geograhic earth zones and the effect of sun and topography on nations of peoples skin colours and anatomy.
Skilless ignoramouses may well pout, complain and ridicule in lieu of taking up the study, analyzing and synthesizing knowledge of interrelated works which they are unable to do.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Jari You have to be kidding me if you think the "whites" of the Islamic world is equal to the definition of Whites today. First off the Islamic texts and geographers believed in the idea of the 7 climate zones, with the Med as the "Temperate Zone" which was seen as being the habitation of those descending from "Shem". This today would be dismissed as idiotic but people who need to prove their agenda will use it to prove no Blacks were in North Africa..LMAO.
Even the Byzantines were included as Shemites to further this "Temperate Zone" ideology. You realize in the same quote these Muslim Geographers believed that if a Mehgrebi moved to the Sudan after 7 Generations his people would resemble Sudanis and if Sudanis moved to the Temerate Zone after 7 Generations they would resemble the people of the Temperate Zones..
Complete Rubbish.
This is why you have Ibn Bhattuta distinguishing between the "Land of the "Whites" and Land of the Blacks, which Bidan had nothing really to do with "White" but with Temperate Zones and Sudan with extreemly dark people.
You don't know if the Bidanes were Brown Skinned, Pale Skinned, Light Brown etc. Any researcher not familiar with Arabic and able to demonstrate the Original Arabic Texts and Able to put these Texts into their time frame should use Medieval Muslim Geography with Caution, this includes Al Jahiz Boasts of the Sudan to Bidan...which was nothing more than the boasts of one Climate Zone the "Bilad Es Sudan against the "Temperate/Bidan" Climate Zone.
One should use these with caution and not try to racialize and force Western Racial thinking on Texts that have nothing to do with such constructs
A feww points.
1. No, white as used by the Arabs does not mean White like the the freakin Irish, but relatvely pale in comparison to Sub Saharans. Much like North Africans of Today.
2. Berbers being all Blacks would entail a dramatic change in phenotype in fairly recent times.
3. The terms land of Blacks/Whites does not correspond to any climatic zone but does seem to correspond to present day boundries in Africa where a significant phenotypical change is noted near the southern sahara. Shall we view this as coincidence?
4. Batutta qualifies his use of White and Black with clear physiological differences stating that Whites can not eat the same food as Blacks.
5. We have ancient depictions of North Africans from greco roman times which show Eurasian people. Also we know that the neolithic brought agriculturalist from the Near East as well as Iberian mtdna into the Maghreb. How should expect this to affect the local phenotype.
6. You calim that you allow for light skiined or light brown Berbers. You seem to feel that a bit of color alone is enough for folks to cluster with Blacks. skin color does not equal race. ost North Africans and even many Southern Europeans could be considered light brown. But they are not Black. Yes other triats such as hair texture, facial features, nose shape etc do come into play.
Therefore if you are willing to admit many light brown Bebers, then I would count those as non Black.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
The Fact that the Leukoathiopians have no description and the fact they are identified with "Athiopies" is further Damagine to your case.
Umm you do know that Leuko mean White right. And were are talking Libya. You remember the pale Libyans the the Egyptians depicted? Do the pieces of the puzzle fit?
And about the Garamantes sources that southre are conflicting reports. Some describe them as Black. Herodutus contrasts them with Ethiopian troglydites. One of your sources that you unwittingly quoted them as enslaving Blacks. I think mostly they were a mixed group perhaps lighter iitially becoming darker as they asorbed more sub sahran blood.
And North Indians where chosen by the ancients as a light brown color to contrast with. Trying to say that some North indians are darker skinned is irrevelant to the fact.
You ask why didn't Manilius include Mauretanians in hia European schematic, you ask. Well probably becuase they weren't European lol. And because they lived in a differnt environment. No doubt he saw them as darker then Europeans but probably not by much.
I'm sure there were Blacks in Carthage. Blacks came from the interior. Your source claims that carthage had variety of phenotypes. And was not exclusively or even mostly black.
Also The Sanhaja were a cofederation of various Berber tribes which eventually reached down into Senegal. There is no reasonn why some tribes would not have become Black from intermixing..the Masmuda perhaps. In any case certain tribes were cleraly not black. If I'm not mistaken Batutta was related to the Sanhaja himself. Moreover in mauritania today the White Moors claim descent from the Sanhaja. Coincidence?
And lastly, I don't know if Septimus looks mixed. He could easily pass for a North African Today. And his wife does not look Syrian.
Also you called him a mutt. Wtf is up with that???
sanhaja
septimus
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: 1. No, white as used by the Arabs does not mean White like the the freakin Irish, but relatvely pale in comparison to Sub Saharans. Much like North Africans of Today.
You are simply dishonest. As I said before unless you can translate Arabic and can provide original texts and transliterations you should just as I should be careful of using Arabic works to prove your case.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: 2. Berbers being all Blacks would entail a dramatic change in phenotype in fairly recent times.
Not really, only for the coastal Berbers. The Saharan Berbers et al are still quite dark. There are the Siwi, the Temgroute Berbers, the Tissint, the Berbers of the Saharan town of Ghadames, historical evidence of blacks in Tunis back to Carthaginean time, the blackness of the Garamantes, the blackness of ancient images of Berbers from the Egyptian Delkha and Kharga Oaisis etc.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: 3. The terms land of Blacks/Whites does not correspond to any climatic zone but does seem to correspond to present day boundries in Africa where a significant phenotypical change is noted near the southern sahara. Shall we view this as coincidence?
The Idea of Bidan had nothing to do with being pale people. Many of the people called Bidan would be Brown, Dark Brown, Reddish Brown etc as opposed to extreemly black.
Many of the people of the Sahrah, Southern Lybia, Morocco etc. are Dark skinned as compared to Coastal people and resemble SSA but are not as dark.
Berbers who would be considered "Bidan"
Ghadames
Taureg
Sanhaja
4. Batutta qualifies his use of White and Black with clear physiological differences stating that Whites can not eat the same food as Blacks.
And this proves your racial point how??
Again climate zones, not different than a person living in Texas going to Mexico and not drinking the water because it supposedly makes you sick.
desperate much??
We have ancient depictions of North Africans from greco roman times which show Eurasian people. Also we know that the neolithic brought agriculturalist from the Near East as well as Iberian mtdna into the Maghreb. How should expect this to
We Also have Ancient discriptions of blacks in North Africa from greco Roman Times. Also the origin of Berber is SSA and the Eastern Deserts with the Berber HG being found as far South as Sudan etc.
I believe you are being schooled on this by Explorer on the R1b thread if I recall.
You calim that you allow for light skiined or light brown Berbers. You seem to feel that a bit of color alone is enough for folks to cluster with Blacks. skin color does not equal race.
Majority of the Sahran Berbers and Sahrans are Dark Brown, Brown light brown etc. their African origin is undeniable.
ost North Africans and even many Southern Europeans could be considered light brown. But they are not Black. Yes other triats such as hair texture, facial features, nose shape etc do come into play.
There is a clear difference, gentically, Physically, Linguistically, and Culturally than a Light brown Sahran Berber and a Southern European, the former being closer to a black Skinned Chadian or Beja than to a Southern European in all the above mentioned.
then I would count those as non Black.
As I said before your opinion is moot. I can care less what you think.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Umm you do know that Leuko mean White right. And were are talking Libya. You remember the pale Libyans the the Egyptians depicted? Do the pieces of the puzzle fit?
Lybia is not Atheiopia and the people depicted by Egyptian came from Coastal North Africa not Athiopia. As before there is no detailed description of the Leuko Ethiopians, and Luekoethiopians would translate as " whites blacks" or "White Negros" LMAO
I don't see that helping your case.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: And about the Garamantes sources that southre are conflicting reports. Some describe them as Black. Herodutus contrasts them with Ethiopian troglydites. One of your sources that you unwittingly quoted them as enslaving Blacks. I think mostly they were a mixed group perhaps lighter iitially becoming darker as they asorbed more sub sahran blood.
So then the Gramantes were associated with Athiopies, I.E blacks. Case closed, not need to insert personal opinions but then again, this is what you seem to be good at.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: And North Indians where chosen by the ancients as a light brown color to contrast with. Trying to say that some North indians are darker skinned is irrevelant to the fact.
Again you can't prove that the quote involved "Light Skinned" Indians can you. All you can do is cherry pick. I can however compare Reddish brown Egyptians(the Color which Egyptians Caracatured themselves as having) with Northern Indians of the same Color. It not Irrelevent when many Northern Indians are Reddish Brown and Dark Brown as compared to pitch Black Dravidians and the Egyptians applied the Same Reddish Brown v. Pitch black contrast themselves.
Does'nt farewell for you.
You ask why didn't Manilius include Mauretanians in hia European schematic, you ask. Well probably becuase they weren't European lol. And because they lived in a differnt environment. No doubt he saw them as darker then Europeans but probably not by much.
Yet and still they were not counted as Leukos, despite some of them being quite Dark Themselves.
And Septimius proves how Dark some Coastal Berbers can get even with white admixture.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: I'm sure there were Blacks in Carthage. Blacks came from the interior. Your source claims that carthage had variety of phenotypes. And was not exclusively or even mostly black.
Majority of those blacks were Natives as Blacks are Native to North Africa. Where did I say Cathage was exclusivly black don't strawman me.
Also The Sanhaja were a cofederation of various Berber tribes which eventually reached down into Senegal. There is no reasonn why some tribes would not have become Black from intermixing..the Masmuda perhaps. In any case certain tribes were cleraly not black. If I'm not mistaken Batutta was related to the Sanhaja himself.
Many of the Sanhadja were described as being blacks and browns with Africoid features, no different than many Sahran people of today.
Moreover in mauritania today the White Moors claim descent from the Sanhaja. Coincidence?
LMAO, why do you keep invoking the White Moors, many of the White Moors have black blood in them and many of the Black Moors have "White Moor" or Arab/white Berber blood in them.
Some "White Moors"
If anything this proves my case that Bidan had nothing to do with being Pale, many Moderatly Dark and even Dark Brown people would be Bidan. Hell compared to the above my Dad who joined the Nation of Islam and told me once that he believed at one point the White man was the Devil would be a f-ing Bidane as he is considerably Lighter than all those folks with colored eyes. Hell Malcolm X would have been a damn Bidane.
And lastly, I don't know if Septimus looks mixed. He could easily pass for a North African Today. And his wife does not look Syrian.
1) He was half Berber Half Roman-Fact.
2) His 2nd Wife the woman in the colored Image was a Syrian-fact.
He looks mixed, have you seen Carcalla??
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
For all the negroes or black Moors are descendants of Cush,the son of Ham,who was the son of Noah.But whatever difference there is between the negroes and the twany Moor,it is a fact that they are all of the same ancestry. Leo Africanus.
This off was course written at a later date but would have held true even earlier.
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Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
The Mutt comment was a joke, no disrespect to Mulattos as My dad is a Mullatto.
Any was I think its safe to say Spetimius was the First "black" Roman Emperor. His son Caracalla was probably lighter skinned but his hair testifies to his African Heritage.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
Also you called him a mutt. Wtf is up with that???
[/QB]
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
In my opinion this wouldn't be the very most Africanizing description of Egyptians, in terms of ancient Greco-Roman quotes (classical), at least not in the tropical sense.
So essentially he says that Egyptians were darker than Mauretanians and Mauretanians' darker Libyan (Afrorum) counterparts?
He did though give an intriguing possible hint though.
In writing this he mentions approaching a medium hue, in terms of the great extremes white and black - German to Ethiopian - of mankind.
Mind you this isn't Modern Ethiopia / ancient Abyssinia we're talking about -- mod Ethiopia was named such in recent times, just like "Ghana" isn't the classical Kingdom of Ghana, which was to the North in modern Mauretania, and Benin isn't the Benin Empire, which was located in Nigeria. These would've been Kemet's Southern neighbors, and Egyptians depicted their Southern neighbors quite black - as black as possible. Western (i.e. non-Indian) "Ethiopia" was used for individuals residing outside of Egypt in Sudan, and even for West Africans as when Romans I think travelled by ship there, to West Africa, the natives/inhabitants were simply described again as "Ethiopians" from the Western Sudan to the forested interior. Sudanese are some of the [b]blackest Africans on pigmentation maps (not only is it dry, but combined with it being fully in the tropics zone the sands give a reflective and the arid desert gives a frying pan effect if you check the temperatures to further illustrate my point.
Anyway, they say moderate hue when bringing up Kemetians, and it's interesting, as I've seen other quotes claiming that of Nubians, although these could've been during Medieval times or so. Kemetians do appear a bit darker than this (medium) in much of their art, though, although -- I have seen art where they appear near perfectly medium. Quite near the color of this: .
So this may help us guage the coloring of the groups he mentions. It was said by Greeks that Persians (that would be Iranians) were lighter than they.
Anyway, so with that said perhaps I would place the Afrorum / Libyans as light skinned (from a black perspective) or what would be known as "quadroon mulatto" levels, and their Mauretanians at "octoroon" levels.
Leaving Syrians, then Greeks, straight swarthy.
Followed by the still lighter Romans (Italians), Hispania (Spain), Gallic people (Gauls -- Celts), and then finally Germania (Germanic people).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Keep in mind an Upper near Middle Egypt place like in Luxor has many significantly dark skinned individuals, while many Middler & Lower Egyptian locales have more folks of lighter complexions, but unlike in modern times most Egyptians didn't live in that end, especially the Middle, probably bringing the average and mode towards a darker direction, perfectly between jet & lily in those times.
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
Here are some people from Egypt's Southern extreme, often termed "Nubian", although this is what many haphazardly (and erroneously) call non-Kemetians to the South, despite the fact that Pharaohnic / Ancient Egypt started from an area in what is now Northern Sudan, and that Nub was a city located in what is now modern Egypt. Ignoring all that, here are some Nubians:
Aside from one of them in the middle of that one pic above, here is the first immediate result I saw to approach what I think they may have been referring to in "Indians", although it was found also in searching for Southern Egyptians (Aswan, Image Search). (I know there likely were others I could likely have just scrolled down, and infact glanced at others in the websites for those images).
* Now at their "Egyptian level":
As well as the guy on the phone in the third pic below (Qena)
So apparently they didn't count the very light skinned as whites, and maybe still considered them blacks or Melanos.
Mauretanians or Moors were like many Northern Mauretanians and Southern Moroccans are today, particularly of a certain persuation.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Reposting to compare and contrast with WhatBox's
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
In Manilius' order complexions from the most dark to the least dark are (a)- Aethiopes (b)- India (c)- Aegyptia (d)- Afrorum (d)- Mauretania"
A
B
C
D(Saharan Type)
D(Coastal Type)/(mixture with European Migrants)
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant. flava per ingentis surgit Germania partus, Gallia vicino minus est infecta rubore, asperior solidos Hispania contrahit artus. Martia Romanis urbis pater induit ora Gradivumque Venus miscens bene temperat artus, perque coloratas subtilis Graecia gentes gymnasium praefert vultu fortisque palaestras, et Syriam produnt torti per tempora crines.
Manilius' order of white complexions from the most light to the least light - Germania - Gallia - Hispania - Romanis - Graecia - Syrium
Manilius' order black complexions from the most dark to the least dark are
- Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
Please follow me closely here. This is the quote we are dealing with
The first part of alTakruri interpreation is that Manilius is talking about skin complections, let's see what Manilius actually said:
Below is a translation of the above Manilus quote from Astronomica.
The content is continous like it appears in the original latin.
I will leave it up to you if you want to force it into a "black" and "white" paradigm.
I have bolded and separated with the space bar the relevant potions of the text:
For this reason, various laws in the various figures disposed is a genus of men, the characteristic color of nations are formed, society administers laws, the limbs make an equal mark in private treaties. Germany rises by a huge golden birth, 715
France is less infected by shame,
Spain, has more severe limbs.
Mars is the father of the city of the Romans Venus is pregnant, mixing tempers of her limbs,
Greece is subtle and colored by the 720 nations she prefers strong wrestling with her face to a place of exercise,
and Syrians, they are betrayed by their hair.
Ethiopians stain the world with darkness
The nations of India men are less roasted 725a
726b and the land of the Egyptian Nile is more gently darkened by watered fields these bodies draw near 726a to the moderate the tenor of the middle.
725b The sandy dust of the earth 728 dries up the Phoebus African , and the name Mauritania, his mouth has the very color.
add as many sounds of words, the same number of languages an equal lot of places and manners; add proper genus under the seed of the fruits of a similar harvest, returning through the cities of Ceres various things all being equal
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
I haven't at all the quote down by heart, but I just noticed something thanks to the quote being posted again, above, by lioness. That it is after Egypt that "the moderate tenor of the middle" is approached or drawn near to (as they phrase it "these draw near to"). So this doesn't even really say whether it is the Saharans or Mauretanians who finally eclipse this moderate hue. In other words of course Egyptians & Saharans would approach more towards a medium hue than would an Ethiopian.
Previously, I was looking for yellow goldies like the ones you can pretty easily find at pretty Central locations like Qena or Luxor today, such as the young lady in the top right, and keeids in the opposite corner in the collage below, constructed by Wally:
So actually, most of the people I looked at as "too dark" at Luxor would've worked fine -- I'd decided to pass Luxor because although there were a few of the right complexion (in pics, that is) I was trying to be selective of a certain picture type and went further towards Qena in my searches of more with the yellow - golden hues.
Also re: what I said of some of the paintings, this was just looking at some at face value, and not in the decisive majority of pics which seem to be at Jari's Egyptian and Indian levels.
Actual Ancient Egyptians.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
1).
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Below is a translation of the above Manilus quote from Astronomica.
Oh why don't you get the Loeb edition since you can't do a real translation yourself, please.
.
2).
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: I haven't at all the quote down by heart, but I just noticed something thanks to the quote being posted again, above, by lioness. That it is after Egypt that "the moderate tenor of the middle" is approached or drawn near to (as they phrase it "these draw near to"). So this doesn't even really say whether it is the Saharans or Mauretanians who finally eclipse this moderate hue. In other words of course Egyptians & Saharans would approach more towards a medium hue than would an Ethiopian.
With the words "iam propior mediumque facit moderata tenorem" Manilius is announcing that after mentioning Aethiopes, Indians, and Egyptians, in his move from the extreme southern Tropical Zone going to the north he now nears the Mediterranean Zone of the middle. The far north Egyptian Delta, "Libya", and Mauretania abutt the southern Mediterranean.
Just as Egypt runs the length of the lower Nile "Libya" runs from the desert to Mediterranean Sea. That's why Afrorum is mentioned after the verse announcing the approach to the southern Mediterranean and is mentioned in notice of the dust of the sandy desert.
Afrorum and Mauri being at the southern Mediterranean they both would be in the zone of moderated colour.
In Greco-Latin texts Indians are noted to have Aethiop colour in the south and Egyptian colour in the north. And so Manilius' ordering India between Aethiops and Egyptians, tropical and subtropical but not Mediterranean.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Yes and the above makes perfect sense unless one is biased by an agenda to distort the meaning of what is actually stated. Hence, lyinass worms wrigle! Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox:
Here are some people from Egypt's Southern extreme, often termed "Nubian", although this is what many haphazardly (and erroneously) call non-Kemetians to the South, despite the fact that Pharaohnic / Ancient Egypt started from an area in what is now Northern Sudan, and that Nub was a city located in what is now modern Egypt. Ignoring all that, here are some Nubians:
Aside from one of them in the middle of that one pic above, here is the first immediate result I saw to approach what I think they may have been referring to in "Indians", although it was found also in searching for Southern Egyptians (Aswan, Image Search). (I know there likely were others I could likely have just scrolled down, and infact glanced at others in the websites for those images).
* Now at their "Egyptian level":
As well as the guy on the phone in the third pic below (Qena)
So apparently they didn't count the very light skinned as whites, and maybe still considered them blacks or Melanos.
Mauretanians or Moors were like many Northern Mauretanians and Southern Moroccans are today, particularly of a certain persuation.
And what are we to make of Egyptians who live as far north as Giza like these men?
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
What, other than they're Egyptian?
I would say that complection is about what they were talking about, actually.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: why don't you get the Loeb edition
you are bluffing. If you had the Goold translation you would have quoted from it. You don't even know what it says
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ And you don't even know what you're talking about! As I said, you are a caught in your lie the way a worm is caught on a hook!
Keep wriggling!
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ And you don't even know what you're talking about! As I said, you are a caught in your lie the way a worm is caught on a hook!
Keep wriggling!
more Djhooptie cheerleading his baton twirls high
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Not really, only for the coastal Berbers. The Saharan Berbers et al are still quite dark. There are the Siwi, the Temgroute Berbers, the Tissint, the Berbers of the Saharan town of Ghadames..
Well you should be thrilled to know that the general consensus is that many of the dark berbers are the result of assimilation with blacks as they migrated southward.
The Idea of Bidan had nothing to do with being pale people. Many of the people called Bidan would be Brown, Dark Brown, Reddish Brown etc as opposed to extreemly black.
Oh give me a break. Bidan is a term used by Arabs for non Blacks, whether they are beige or light brown is not the issue. It is a term used for lighter skinned people. Now as with the term Blanco in south america, the term might be extended to include some dark people of high status, but the general rule is these people are non Blacks. Some Bidan Moorish people.
Another
Now whether you call them beige, bronze or paper bag brown, they are not negroes. That is what I'm talking about. Capeesh??
Btw the way the Bidan Moors consder themselves descendants of Sahnhaja Berbers. Lol!
And this proves your racial point how??
Again climate zones, not different than a person living in Texas going to Mexico and not drinking the water because it supposedly makes you sick.
I see you are not very good at breaking down analogies. The reason why water in Mexico..or San Antonio might make us sick is not beause of a difference in climate LMAO! But because of germs. This is something you get used to after a while. Battuta doesn't mention climate but two different types of people, the whites being phsyiologically ill disposed to digest certain African grains.
Oh wait what am I saying? the Arabs didn't notice any different racial types in North Afica. And Bidan simply refers to Blacks whose skin had a healthy glow. Ah but then there's you boy Al jahiz and his book Risalat mufakharat al-sudan 'ala al-bidan (Superiority Of The Blacks To The Whites)..I guess Bidan had some racial meaning to him, huh?
We Also have Ancient discriptions of blacks in North Africa from greco Roman Times. Also the origin of Berber is SSA and the Eastern Deserts with the Berber HG being found as far South as Sudan etc.
Depictions of Blacks from the interior. Only the haplogroup E-m81 is likely SSA. But much of their dna ain't. It takes a combination of things to make a berber.
I believe you are being schooled on this by Explorer on the R1b thread if I recall.
What R having it's origin in Africa? Your Explorer fellow is quite the entertainer.
Majority of the Sahran Berbers and Sahrans are Dark Brown, Brown light brown etc. their African origin is undeniable.
Those represent only about 10% of all Berbers. Why focus on them?
There is a clear difference, gentically, Physically, Linguistically, and Culturally than a Light brown Sahran Berber and a Southern European, the former being closer to a black Skinned Chadian or Beja than to a Southern European in all the above mentioned.
Yeah cause a Saharan Berber is likely already mixed Chadians or Malians.
As I said before your opinion is moot. I can care less what you think.
My opinions are informed by facts and logic, your opinions are influenced by afrocentric tomfoolery and tales of the mothership connection. Dana Marniche and others are doing you a serious diservice, son.
Lybia is not Atheiopia and the people depicted by Egyptian came from Coastal North Africa not Athiopia. As before there is no detailed description of the Leuko Ethiopians, and Luekoethiopians would translate as " whites blacks" or "White Negros" LMAO
Or White Africans. and I do believe that the Luekaethiopians were reported being in Libya.
So then the Gramantes were associated with Athiopies, I.E blacks. Case closed, not need to insert personal opinions but then again, this is what you seem to be good at.
But they were also contrasted with Blacks. so take your pick..I oh nevermind.
Again you can't prove that the quote involved "Light Skinned" Indians can you. All you can do is cherry pick. I can however compare Reddish brown Egyptians(the Color which Egyptians Caracatured themselves as having) with Northern Indians of the same Color. It not Irrelevent when many Northern Indians are Reddish Brown and Dark Brown as compared to pitch Black Dravidians and the Egyptians applied the Same Reddish Brown v. Pitch black contrast themselves.
Cherry pick nothing! Northern Indians are KNOWN for being light some even having light eyes. And most southern dravdians are not pitch black but medium to dark redish brown. Don't let it upset you.
Just remember the truth will set you free!
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ And you don't even know what you're talking about! As I said, you are a caught in your lie the way a worm is caught on a hook!
Keep wriggling!
more Djhooptie cheerleading his baton twirls high
DJ and his cumpà have made a major contribution with their reasoned translation of lines 4.722-730 which is not merely an unintelligible string of words in the English tongue but is a meaningful and original translation that makes sense in English that is very helpful. Especially for the strength of 726a|725b as a sentence of it's own by translating iam instead of Goold's use of 726a|725b as a run on appendage to 726b|727 and his total neglect of iam.
quote: Ethiopians stain the circle (globe) with their darkest figures. Immersed with races of men less burnt India has produced. The earth inundated by the Egyptian Nile, are more gently darkened bodies of the watered field.
We now draw near the moderate tenor (climate or condition) of the middle.
Bright (sunny) African and sandy dust of the earth drieth up the people, and the name of Mauritania, a label his mouth bears has the very color.
The only real error I find is their shortening of the Ethiopian sentence which actually includes the ending phrase "immersed with races of men" which in mistake they prefix to the very concise sentence on India.
Meanwhile the Lioness has contributed nothing but a coverup.
This is the translation I made back on Nov 10, 2010
quote:Ethiopia stains the world painting humankind deeply dark Less does India's sun toast its progeny Egypt-land's Nile leniently irrigates bodies dark a country nearer us, with moderate climate imparting medium tone Sol dries peoples of Africa's dusty desert land] While Mauretania's name proclaims colour in skin and face.
Unfortunately I lost the translation notes when my old laptop died. My translation is a work in progress. The above is not the finished product. Below, some recent rough and unfinished updates
quote: Ethiopians stain the orb deeply dark drenching humanity's forms. India's progeny is less scorched. Egypt's Nile inundates the earth, darkens bodies gradual, like the irrigated field.
Now nearer the middle which produces a tone observing moderation.
Sol dries the African peoples' dusty desert land While Mauretania's own mouth has labeled it's appellation by the color they bear.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Indeed, which is why unlike the lyinass worm. I don't wriggle. By the way, my suggestion that the immersed part references India is because India was said to be the most populous region at the time.
quote:Originally posted by malcontent7:
Now whether you call them beige, bronze or paper bag brown, they are not negroes. That is what I'm talking about. Capeesh??
LOL There is no such thing as "negroes" at least scientifically no more than "caucasians". Though the people above represent a mixture of African and fair-skinned Eurasian and would be traditionally known as "mulatto" in the West.
The African American woman above would fit right in among your selection of Berber people.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Well you should be thrilled to know that the general consensus is that many of the dark berbers are the result of assimilation with blacks as they migrated southward.
I can care less about a "General Consensus" says. The fact remains that the Berbers decend from an African people and the Saharan Berbers have been identified with blacks(Athiopies) back to Early Dynastic Egypt and Greco Roman times. Numerous studies and evidence backs this up. Sorry.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Oh give me a break. Bidan is a term used by Arabs for non Blacks, whether they are beige or light brown is not the issue. It is a term used for lighter skinned people. Now as with the term Blanco in south america, the term might be extended to include some dark people of high status, but the general rule is these people are non Blacks. Some Bidan Moorish people.
No I wont give you a break because in your attepts to Copy N Paste an Anti Afrocentric site you tried to paint the Bidans off as "Pale Skin" your words. Even in your cherry picked selection its obvious the Bidanes are anything but pale, and trust me they get Darker.
Even in your images the so called "Bidanes" are quite dark far from pale, and if this is you claiming some of the sanhaja looked..LMAO it does'nt help your case at all.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: I see you are not very good at breaking down analogies. The reason why water in Mexico..or San Antonio might make us sick is not beause of a difference in climate LMAO! But because of germs. This is something you get used to after a while. Battuta doesn't mention climate but two different types of people, the whites being phsyiologically ill disposed to digest certain African grains
Nothing wrong with my ability to break down analogies, its your problem in understanding the context in which Ibn Bhattuta is basing his opinions on. It had nothing to with a Berber not eating food of a SSA and everything to do with a Coastal Mehgrebi not eating the same food as a SSA.
When you think of it its quite the common sense conclusion that Ibn Bhattuta opinions were largely based on Geography and not skin color.
But you have an agenda so I understand your desperation to defend such a dumb assertion.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Depictions of Blacks from the interior. Only the haplogroup E-m81 is likely SSA. But much of their dna ain't. It takes a combination of things to make a berber.
Tunis is not the interior, Carthage is not the Interior. The Sahrah is not the Interior. Leptis Magna where Septimius comes from is not the interior, the Oaisis of Kharga, Siwa, etc that the Egyptian Lybian Dynasties came from are not the interior.
LOL, Berber is a language group that originated in the Eastern Desert of Africa, and the Afrasian language as well as M81. The Berbers of the Megreb are heavily mixed with Europeans, and Europe had nothing to do with the origin of the Berbers.
Those represent only about 10% of all Berbers. Why focus on them?
What a stupid question. The Sahran Berbers by all accounts remain relatively unchanged from thousands of years ago. If anything they mixed with Arabs and European slaves.
The Sarahan Berbers probably represent what the original Berbers looked like.
Yeah cause a Saharan Berber is likely already mixed Chadians or Malians.
Yes, just as your Megrebi Berbers are mixed with Iberians, Germanics and Romans..etc.
My opinions are informed by facts and logic, your opinions are influenced by afrocentric tomfoolery and tales of the mothership connection. Dana Marniche and others are doing you a serious diservice, son.
More chest beating roo-raa as if this makes any sort of difference. Your opinion is not based off facts as been shown clountless times. Everything you have tried has been exposed.
Or White Africans. and I do believe that the Luekaethiopians were reported being in Libya.
First off Athiopia is not Lybia, second if the Leuko Ethiopians were singled out as "White Africans" as Whites esp in Lybia how does this square with your idea that Lybians, Mauritanians etc were white/Leuko "Middle Eastern looking folks.
That hurts your case, as I said the LeukoEthiopies don't help you at all, esp that no discription was given of them. But I understand desperate times call for desperate measures.
But they were also contrasted with Blacks. so take your pick..I oh nevermind. Yes, oh Never mind is right, the Garamantes were identified with blacks and in most descriptions dark skinned, just as there are Light and Dark Taureg of today.
Oh Nevermind is right.
Cherry pick nothing! Northern Indians are KNOWN for being light some even having light eyes. And most southern dravdians are not pitch black but medium to dark reddish brown. Don't let it upset you.
Dude Indians are known for being Brown skinned. There are plenty of Brown Skinned Northern Indians on par with the Egyptian reddish brown that makes the same contrast with black Dravidians just as the Egyptians did.
And lets be clear the "Northern Indian" quote does nothing to dismiss the Black origin of Egypt and the black Phraroahs who ruled going back to the first dynasties. Many black Upper Egyptians match perfectly with how the Egyptians depicted themselves. and the Nubians are the closest people in all reguards to the Egyptians.
In other words your quote is just a smokescreen.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
LMAO, @ this fraud trying to make the Sanhadja out to be white or cherry picking the lighest Bidane moors to continue some idea that the Sanhadja were "Pale"..once again here are the modern Mauritanians who maintain some of the Sanhadja Manuscripts going back to the days of Andalucia..
More Moors from Mauritanian and the Western Sahrah
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Owners of the Mauritanian libraries..
“Historians said that Andalusi script had long ago disappeared, but the more I looked at Mauritanian scripts, the more they looked like Andalusi. [b\If you compare an Andalusi manuscript from the 12th century and a Mauritanian manuscript from the 19th century, they are so close in style that they could be by the same calligrapher.”[/b] Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Now whether you call them beige, bronze or paper bag brown, they are not negroes. That is what I'm talking about. Capeesh??
Btw the way the Bidan Moors consder themselves descendants of Sahnhaja Berbers. Lol!
It should made clear that I never said anything about "Negros"
Here is what I have said countless times..
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^^ I agree the Moors and Berbers don't have to be "Pitch Black" I think they would be Dark to Light Brown skin.
which was a response to this..
quote:Originally posted by Garrig the Silly Clown: And with the quotes from Arab scholars about so many White Berbers aand a demarcation in Africa separating a land of the blacks from the land of the Whites which corresponds more or less to current present racial boundaries, what is there really that an honest person can argue against?
For someone who loves to chest bump and claim his assertions are based on fact its funny how this person resorts to fallacy, in this case strawman fallacy arguments so much.
Sahran people once again..
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Indeed, his whole argument is nothing more than a strawman fallacy, specifically the fallacy of "true negro". You know that is what he means by 'black' right! By that case, over a third of peoples in Sub-Sahara would not fit that category either, which is why he assumes those that don't are 'Eurasian admixed'. Typical desperate Euronut troll trying to undermine indigenous African diversity.
He claims that Capsian culture represents proto-Berber culture, but he never answered the question as to what these Capsians lookedlike!!
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
There is no such thing as "negroes" at least scientifically no more than "caucasians". Though the people above represent a mixture of African and fair-skinned Eurasian and would be traditionally known as "mulatto" in the West.
They don't look like mulattos, you liar. And that so called African American woman looks more Caucasian than anything else. The silly one drop rule has distorted everything. Many AAs are only partialy African.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
No I wont give you a break because in your attepts to Copy N Paste an Anti Afrocentric site you tried to paint the Bidans off as "Pale Skin" your words. Even in your cherry picked selection its obvious the Bidanes are anything but pale, and trust me they get Darker.
More So called Bidan people
Their skin color contrast sharply with most Sub Sharan Sahran Blacks. Also you can still see their Eusaisn fetaures which they claim from the Sanhaja.
Nothing wrong with my ability to break down analogies, its your problem in understanding the context in which Ibn Bhattuta is basing his opinions on. It had nothing to with a Berber not eating food of a SSA and everything to do with a Coastal Mehgrebi not eating the same food as a SSA. Lolz! You also suck at logic.
Also I'm tired of repeating the same damn things over and over. You have posted what you claim to believe and I have have written at length to explain why I believe you are wrong. Let the objective minded look at our posts and decide for themselves. I have said all that I needed to say about this.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by malcontent7: They don't look like mulattos, you liar. And that so called African American woman looks more Caucasian than anything else. The silly one drop rule has distorted everything. Many AAs are only partialy African.
LMAO
The only one lying is YOU as usual! The Berbers in your pics are obviously of mixed black African and light-skinned Eurasian ancestry. Again they look no different from the African American woman and this is the reason why such Berbers living in Europe are sometimes subjected to racist attacks and insults as "mongrels" or plain "n*ggers" especially during soccer games. As for the African American woman, she is 'biracial' so your opinion about her looking 'caucasian' (which again doesn't exist) only verifies my point you idiot!
By the way, you ignored my last post. Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Their skin color contrast sharply with most Sub Sharan Sahran Blacks. Also you can still see their Eusaisn fetaures which they claim from the Sanhaja.
Their skin color is for the most part is dark not "Pale". as you tried to imply when you brought up "Bidane". I will continue to slap your clown ass down the more you try to squirm away from this with more proof.
More Sahrans, Decendants of the Sanhadja..
quote:"“The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters, active in service, suited both to motherhood and to pleasure, for they are the most solicitous in caring for their children. “"
-Ibn Butlan
11th Century..
Nasr i Khusrau, an Iranian ruler described the Masmuda soldiers of the Fatimid dynasty as “black Africans”.
-11th Century
See Yaacov Lev, “Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094″, International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies, 19.3 (1987) p. 342.
quote:(At the moment the published DBM list contains no troops that fit this description, and the most likely candidates at this date are probably the Berbers. The Persian traveller Nasir-i Khusrau described Fatimid Masmuda infantry as armed with spear and sword (Yaacov Lev, "Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094", International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies 19.3 (1987), p.342; although Nasir-i Khusrau for some reason describes them as black Africans, the Masmuda are a Berber confederacy).)
.........The Taureq Bani Tanamek were counted among the Sanhadja............
Description of Yussef Tachfin leader of the Almoravid Berbers(Sanhadja)..
quote:Yusuf was of “brown color”, of “middle height” with , “ thin, little beard, soft voice” and “woolly hair”
-Roudh el-Kartas” (History of the Rulers of Morocco) by Abd Allah, and A.Beaumier’s French translation of the 14th century work,
The Sanhadja would have been dark to Meduim Reddish brown with Woolly hair..
[
quote:Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra- Saharan Africa.
- Frigi et al.
Also I'm tired of repeating the same damn things over and over. You have posted what you claim to believe and I have have written at length to explain why I believe you are wrong. Let the objective minded look at our posts and decide for themselves. I have said all that I needed to say about this.
The only objective minded person here is me. You are deluded if you think Ibn Bhattua's remark about getting sick if earing Sudani food had anything to do with skin color, esp given the fact that the word in arabic was Bidane and had nothing to do with the modern notion of being "White"
Only a fool will deny that Ibn Bhattuta was referencing the difference in Geographical location just as an American visiting Mexico who fears getting sick from the water there is basing his assertions off Geography and Location.
You can repeat yourself until your ass bleeds it still wont change the facts kid.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Indeed. The same twisted game of attributing Berber ancestry to Eurasians while black features to foreign slaves. Does this guy not realize how nutty he sounds. The Berber language and culture as indigenous to Africa meant that the people who created it were also indigenous and thus BLACK. Any Eurasian features are the ones that are foreign and likely of slave ancestry!
"Also you can still see their Eusaisn fetaures which they claim from the Sanhaja." LMAO Where is Dana when you need her??
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
The Sanhaja or Senhaja (also Znaga or Sanhadja; Arabic: صنهاجة Ṣanhājah, Berber: Iẓnagen) were once one of the largest Berber tribal confederations of the Maghreb, along with the Zanata and Masmuda.[1] Many tribes and regions in the Berber world bore and still bear this name, especially in its Berber form.
The meaning of the Berber word Iẓnagen is the oasis people. Its singular form is Aẓnag, which is frequently used today as a family name by many North Africans. In Berber, the word for "oasis" is Aẓnig or Amda.
The tribes of the Senhaja settled at first in the northern Sahara. After the arrival of Islam they also spread out in the Sudan as far as the Senegal River and the Niger. From the 9th century Zenaga tribes began to establish themselves in the Middle Atlas range, in the Rif Mountains and on the Atlantic coast of Morocco. A part of the Sanhaja settled in eastern Algeria (the Kutama), and played an important part in the rise of the Fatimids. The Zenaga dynasties of the Zirids and Hammadids controlled Ifriqiya until the 12th century.
In the mid-11th century, a group of Senhaja chieftains, returning from the Hajj invited the missionary and Lamtuna theologian Ibn Yasin to preach among their tribes. Ibn Yasin then managed to unite the tribes in the alliance of the Almoravids in the middle of the 11th century. This confederacy subsequently established Morocco, conquered western Algeria, and Andalusia in Spain.[2]
With the invasion of the Maghreb by the Arab Banu Hilal tribe in the 11th century and the Maqil in the 12th, the Zenaga were gradually Arabized. They were subjected to domination by Arab warrior castes in the 17th-century Char Bouba war.[1] In today's Mauritania and Western Sahara, the Zenaga tribes are at the bottom of Sahrawi-Moorish society. They perform demeaning duties for their Hassane (warrior) and Zawiya (religious) overlords, and were traditionally exploited through payment of the horma tax in exchange for protection, as they could not bear arms. Today only some 200 still speak the Zenaga language.
Sanhaja Berber nomads are believed to have started migrating into the area of modern-day Western Sahara around 1,000 BC. After the arrival of the camel from the east in AD 50, the Sanhaja periodically controlled the lucrative trans-Saharan trade routes. But from the seventh century they began to experience fierce competition from Zenata Berbers to the north, who eventually took over the trade routes. In the eleventh century, the Sanhaja rose to dominance again with the emergence of the Almoravids, followers of a fervent Islamic movement who conquered vast swathes of west and north Africa and ruled for a century in southern Spain.
The direct descendents of present-day Saharawis represent a fusion between the Sanhaja Berbers and Arab tribes originating from Yemen. Invasions by the Beni Hassan in the fifteenth century led to the gradual domination and Arabization of the Sanhaja. This gave rise to a new ethnic group called the Beidan or Moors, whose language evolved into Hassaniya. The area they occupied was known as Trab Ab-beidan (the land of the whites), its limits defined mainly by natural barriers such as the Atlantic coast to the west; Ouad or Wad Noun in the north; the Senegal River to the south; and the hostile, barren desert to the east.
Those nomadic pastoral tribes roamed mainly along Western Sahara’s coastal area and developed different political structures from those that largely occupied modern-day Mauritania. They did not form emirates as in Mauritania and, when not fighting amongst themselves, regulated their affairs and relations by inter-tribal assemblies like the djemaa or ait arbain (the council of forty). These would meet to organize collective defense and raids, resolve civil disputes, and punish crimes. Primary loyalties were to family, faction, and tribe. The Saharawis never constituted a nation as such in pre-colonial times ( Hodges 1983 ).
The only problem is that Hassaniya Arabs from Yemen were still quite dark and thus Arabization fails to explain the light complexion among many modern Sanhaja. However, if one remembers that Arabs during Medieval times imported European slaves, particularly women, it makes more sense.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by malcontent7: They don't look like mulattos, you liar. And that so called African American woman looks more Caucasian than anything else. The silly one drop rule has distorted everything. Many AAs are only partialy African.
LMAO
The only one lying is YOU as usual! The Berbers in your pics are obviously of mixed black African and light-skinned Eurasian ancestry. Again they look no different from the African American woman and this is the reason why such Berbers living in Europe are sometimes subjected to racist attacks and insults as "mongrels" or plain "n*ggers" especially during soccer games. As for the African American woman, she is 'biracial' so your opinion about her looking 'caucasian' (which again doesn't exist) only verifies my point you idiot!
By the way, you ignored my last post.
First off your comment about the racist slurs at soccer games applies mostly to Blacks, not North Africans.
The term biracial can be misleading since it seems to imply some type of racial balance when in fact a person may be more of one race than the other. Lena Horne for instance was more Caucasian than she was Black at least in features. The same is true of your African American woman.
Was your questions about the Capsians? Well since they were mixed with Iberians and Near Easterners, they probably looked like Qadaffi. Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
The only objective minded person here is me. You are deluded if you think Ibn Bhattua's remark about getting sick if earing Sudani food had anything to do with skin color, esp given the fact that the word in arabic was Bidane and had nothing to do with the modern notion of being "White"
I already said it is not equvalent to the modern notion of white and most North Africans today are not considered White, are they? But just the same, their features are Eurasian and people consider them Middle Easterners not Blacks. And you are using pictures of people who might be considered Black in the US because of the stupid one drop rule, while it's quite obvious to me that these people are still relatively light comapred to Sub Saharans..aka the Real Negroes. Lol! an look more Eurasian than anything else.
Only a fool will deny that Ibn Bhattuta was referencing the difference in Geographical location just as an American visiting Mexico who fears getting sick from the water there is basing his assertions off Geography and Location.
You get sick in Mexico because the difference in hygeine and food preparation.. in other words GERMS! GERMS! GERMS! That has nothing to do with geography, you fool. And there is no reason to call people White and Black if they all look the same. What a desperate and silly claim. Moreover why would the land of the Blacks begin smack dab in the middle of Mauritania?? What geographical phenomena makes the area more significan t than surrounding areas? NONE! Seems like you would do better grabing at sand than trying to make actual sense..anyway.
You can repeat yourself until your ass bleeds it still wont change the facts kid.
I don't need to cuz any sensible person can take a look at what you wrote about Battuta using the term White men and Black men with no racial significance, as a reference to climatic zones and see it for the pathetic, poorly thought out, afrocentic hogwash it really is.
You have yourself a nice weekend. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by malcontent7: First off your comment about the racist slurs at soccer games applies mostly to Blacks, not North Africans.
In contrast to France’s team, Italy fielded an all-white squad. Marco Materazzi, the Italian player headbutted by Zidane, also plays for the Italian pro team Lazio. Lazio’s hardcore fan club, "the Ultras," is infamous for its fascist politics and overtly racist behavior. "The Ultras" recruit people to ultra-right political groups in Italy. They have displayed racist banners at matches calling opposing players "n*****s" and frequently make racist chants and monkey sounds at opposing players of African descent.
The racist behavior of "the Ultras" is not isolated. Racism has become and increasing problem in European pro soccer, where banana peels and nuts are often thrown at players of African descent across Europe’s pro leagues.
^ Note they said people of *African* descent NOT "Sub-Saharan" or black skin! Many French racists would call North Africans 'macaca', the same epithet they used against blacks in their former sub-Saharan colonies. They also use the term 'bâtard' meaning mongrel or mulâtre (mulatto) for many North Africans. Of course they even use the word 'nègre' (n*gger), no doubt expressing their own "one drop rule". You see unlike you, the French do not deny the obvious FACT that most North African immigrants are of mixed indigenous (black) and Arab or other ancestry!
Ironically it was the French who described the Moorish ancestors of these North African immigrants as more pristine black, as noted in the Song of Roland.
quote:The term biracial can be misleading since it seems to imply some type of racial balance when in fact a person may be more of one race than the other. Lena Horne for instance was more Caucasian than she was Black at least in features. The same is true of your African American woman.
Scientifically there is no such thing as 'race' which your comments deceitfully prove. The point is these people are of mixed black origin which is what your select Berbers represent a mixture of indigenous (black) with more recent Eurasian ancestry.
quote:Was your questions about the Capsians? Well since they were mixed with Iberians and Near Easterners, they probably looked like Qadaffi.
LMAO So you finally give me an answer although it is WRONG as usual!
The appearance of the Capsians was discussed here and here. The same links I posted elsewhere.
And trust me, they did NOT look like Muammar Qadaffi! LOL Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: I already said it is not equvalent to the modern notion of white and most North Africans today are not considered White, are they?
Oh Please, you are only saying this now in the future you will be proclaiming the Berbers and Ibn Bhutatta as being closer to Europeans etc. when it suits you.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: But just the same, their features are Eurasian and people consider them Middle Easterners not Blacks. And you are using pictures of people who might be considered Black in the US because of the stupid one drop rule
What does the one drop rule have to do with anything and Eurasian features for that matter. You realize the Sahrah desert is a Dry Climate and that Africans have been inhabiting the Sahrah as far back as the Wet Saharah phase and Earlier. The Features of said people are an adaption to the Climate of the Sahrah with minute influences from Arabs and SSAs.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: while it's quite obvious to me that these people are still relatively light comapred to Sub Saharans..aka the Real Negroes. Lol! an look more Eurasian than anything else.
No what is obvious is that beneath the chest beating and pseudo-intellectual facade you are nothing but a pseudo scholar who relies on outdated 20th century defunct and obsolete terms such as "Negro" "True Negros" and Caucasians. In your small feeble mind you are actually backed up by facts..lol.
Once Again..
quote:"“The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters, active in service, suited both to motherhood and to pleasure, for they are the most solicitous in caring for their children. “"
-Ibn Butlan
11th Century..
Nasr i Khusrau, an Iranian ruler described the Masmuda soldiers of the Fatimid dynasty as “black Africans”.
-11th Century
See Yaacov Lev, “Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094″, International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies, 19.3 (1987) p. 342.
quote:(At the moment the published DBM list contains no troops that fit this description, and the most likely candidates at this date are probably the Berbers. The Persian traveller Nasir-i Khusrau described Fatimid Masmuda infantry as armed with spear and sword (Yaacov Lev, "Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094", International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies 19.3 (1987), p.342; although Nasir-i Khusrau for some reason describes them as black Africans, the Masmuda are a Berber confederacy).)
.........The Taureq Bani Tanamek were counted among the Sanhadja............
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
(Cont. because this peice of sh#t won't let me post my full reply.)
Description of Yussef Tachfin leader of the Almoravid Berbers(Sanhadja)..
quote:Yusuf was of “brown color”, of “middle height” with , “ thin, little beard, soft voice” and “woolly hair”
-Roudh el-Kartas” (History of the Rulers of Morocco) by Abd Allah, and A.Beaumier’s French translation of the 14th century work,
The Sanhadja would have been dark to Meduim Reddish brown with Woolly hair..
[
quote:Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra- Saharan Africa.
- Frigi et al.
Clearly despite your desperate attempts to dismiss and squirm your way out of this beat down you are getting the Sanhadja were seen as black, brown and dark skinned Africans no Eurasians or Whites etc despite them being lighter than the Average SSA.
All you really have is Semantics at this point, after you realized that even the Bidane Moors of Mauretania are for the most part not Pale as you tried to imply earlier.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: You get sick in Mexico because the difference in hygeine and food preparation..
Dummy what does "Drinking the Water in Mexico" have to do with Hygene and food preparation. Are you willfully ingnorant or as dense as you act.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: in other words GERMS! GERMS! GERMS! That has nothing to do with geography, you fool.
It has everything to do with Geography and location, you fool. The fact of the matter is people only have this view with Mexico, a Location not with Mexicans a people.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Moreover why would the land of the Blacks begin smack dab in the middle of Mauritania?? What geographical phenomena makes the area more significan t than surrounding areas? NONE! Seems like you would do better grabing at sand than trying to make actual sense..anyway.
The Land of Blacks was the area where the darkest people on Earth according to Muslims lived. Once again being black and white then was different than today, and black people had lived in the Megreb, Arabia and North Africa from the dawn of history. A good example of white and black in the Muslim sense..
This man was seen as white/Bidane/Arab by the Arab Muslims..
The thing as demonstrated over and over again is that being Bidan has nothing to do with race as mixed people and people with Dark to Medium brown skin and features(Hair, Culture, Facial) similar to so called Sudanis would be Bidan like
Anwar.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: I don't need to cuz any sensible person can take a look at what you wrote about Battuta using the term White men and Black men with no racial significance
You have me confused, what I am saying is that when Ibn Bhattuta uses white or Bidan he is including people who could be Dark Brown to Beige etc. in color a wide range of people while blacks were the darkest people on Earth.
Many of the Sahran people are Dark Brown to black skinned going back to the Garamantes.
Your attempts to apply a modern notion of race is obvious distortion of the Muslim texts.
as a reference to climatic zones and see it for the pathetic, poorly thought out, afrocentic hogwash it really is.
Sure it it Negrophobe, the Climate Zones were a vital part of their understanding, which is why Al Jahiz wrote a freaking Kitab called, "The Boasts of the Sudan to the Bidan" and his primary focus is against people who supposedly lived in a temperate climate zone. The idea was that people who did not live in the "Temperate" climate Zone were inferior, Blacks were burned by the Sun and Nordics were Pale and too cold. This is attested to by Ibn Khaludun. Who wrote against this notion.
This just goes to show your ignorance on such matters and desperation to eurasianize the Berbers. Geography played a role in their understanding wether you like it or not.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Indeed. The malcontent isn't fooling anyone by his pathetic attempt to white-wash Saharan Berbers a.k.a. Moors!!
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: while it's quite obvious to me that these people are still relatively light comapred to Sub Saharans..aka the Real Negroes. Lol! an look more Eurasian than anything else.
No what is obvious is that beneath the chest beating and pseudo-intellectual facade you are nothing but a pseudo scholar who relies on outdated 20th century defunct and obsolete terms such as "Negro" "True Negros" and Caucasians. In your small feeble mind you are actually backed up by facts..lol.
Of course. The idiot can do nothing but rely on outdated and debunked phrases. Note how he writes of "true negroes" as if there are fake ones, meanwhile why is there no reference to true caucasians??
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
The Melanophobe Liar7 lives in denial. The North Africans are not well recieved in Holland either, I heard they are at times compared to monkeys etc.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by malcontent7: First off your comment about the racist slurs at soccer games applies mostly to Blacks, not North Africans.
In contrast to France’s team, Italy fielded an all-white squad. Marco Materazzi, the Italian player headbutted by Zidane, also plays for the Italian pro team Lazio. Lazio’s hardcore fan club, "the Ultras," is infamous for its fascist politics and overtly racist behavior. "The Ultras" recruit people to ultra-right political groups in Italy. They have displayed racist banners at matches calling opposing players "n*****s" and frequently make racist chants and monkey sounds at opposing players of African descent.
The racist behavior of "the Ultras" is not isolated. Racism has become and increasing problem in European pro soccer, where banana peels and nuts are often thrown at players of African descent across Europe’s pro leagues.
^ Note they said people of *African* descent NOT "Sub-Saharan" or black skin! Many French racists would call North Africans 'macaca', the same epithet they used against blacks in their former sub-Saharan colonies. They also use the term 'bâtard' meaning mongrel or mulâtre (mulatto) for many North Africans. Of course they even use the word 'nègre' (n*gger), no doubt expressing their own "one drop rule". You see unlike you, the French do not deny the obvious FACT that most North African immigrants are of mixed indigenous (black) and Arab or other ancestry!
Ironically it was the French who described the Moorish ancestors of these North African immigrants as more pristine black, as noted in the Song of Roland.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: The Melanophobe Liar7 lives in denial. The North Africans are not well recieved in Holland either, I heard they are at times compared to monkeys etc.
Yes, and for obvious reasons. It's the same as the rednecks here in America say is the difference between n*gger and n*gger light or "yellow n*gger". In fact the French word 'macaca' is derived from the same root as macaque as in monkey! Whatever so-called 'caucasian' ancestry exists among the North African immigrants, the Euros hardly view them as 'brothers'. Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
^^^^ Yes, I was at a party with some country white people, trust me "Sand N-gger" is a common phrase among these people. Its sad really, I mean these people don't like Mexicans much let alone Muslim Arabs.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^^ Yes, I was at a party with some country white people, trust me "Sand N-gger" is a common phrase among these people. Its sad really, I mean these people don't like Mexicans much let alone Muslim Arabs.
search jari comments on Islam/Arabs
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ And, your point is?? We are discussing North Africans and their Moorish ancestors.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
^ Note they said people of *African* descent NOT "Sub-Saharan" or black skin! Many French racists would call North Africans 'macaca', the same epithet they used against blacks in their former sub-Saharan colonies. They also use the term 'bâtard' meaning mongrel or mulâtre (mulatto) for many North Africans. Of course they even use the word 'nègre' (n*gger), no doubt expressing their own "one drop rule". You see unlike you, the French do not deny the obvious FACT that most North African immigrants are of mixed indigenous (black) and Arab or other ancestry!
You fool. I am part French and have lived in france. They call North Afircans Arabs and now the more popular term "Beur". And they don't have any one drop rule. They thought it was strange when I'm told themn in the States I was considered Black, when I'm barely darker than most of them. Also most French are not racist either! Your source is talking about racist Italians. Learn to read. The North African/French Zidane is considered a superstar in France.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: (Cont. because this peice of sh#t won't let me post my full reply.)
Description of Yussef Tachfin leader of the Almoravid Berbers(Sanhadja)..
quote:Yusuf was of “brown color”, of “middle height” with , “ thin, little beard, soft voice” and “woolly hair”
-Roudh el-Kartas” (History of the Rulers of Morocco) by Abd Allah, and A.Beaumier’s French translation of the 14th century work,
The Sanhadja would have been dark to Meduim Reddish brown with Woolly hair..
[
quote:Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra- Saharan Africa.
- Frigi et al.
Clearly despite your desperate attempts to dismiss and squirm your way out of this beat down you are getting the Sanhadja were seen as black, brown and dark skinned Africans no Eurasians or Whites etc despite them being lighter than the Average SSA.
All you really have is Semantics at this point, after you realized that even the Bidane Moors of Mauretania are for the most part not Pale as you tried to imply earlier.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: You get sick in Mexico because the difference in hygeine and food preparation..
Dummy what does "Drinking the Water in Mexico" have to do with Hygene and food preparation. Are you willfully ingnorant or as dense as you act.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: in other words GERMS! GERMS! GERMS! That has nothing to do with geography, you fool.
It has everything to do with Geography and location, you fool. The fact of the matter is people only have this view with Mexico, a Location not with Mexicans a people.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Moreover why would the land of the Blacks begin smack dab in the middle of Mauritania?? What geographical phenomena makes the area more significan t than surrounding areas? NONE! Seems like you would do better grabing at sand than trying to make actual sense..anyway.
The Land of Blacks was the area where the darkest people on Earth according to Muslims lived. Once again being black and white then was different than today, and black people had lived in the Megreb, Arabia and North Africa from the dawn of history. A good example of white and black in the Muslim sense..
This man was seen as white/Bidane/Arab by the Arab Muslims..
The thing as demonstrated over and over again is that being Bidan has nothing to do with race as mixed people and people with Dark to Medium brown skin and features(Hair, Culture, Facial) similar to so called Sudanis would be Bidan like
Anwar.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: I don't need to cuz any sensible person can take a look at what you wrote about Battuta using the term White men and Black men with no racial significance
You have me confused, what I am saying is that when Ibn Bhattuta uses white or Bidan he is including people who could be Dark Brown to Beige etc. in color a wide range of people while blacks were the darkest people on Earth.
Many of the Sahran people are Dark Brown to black skinned going back to the Garamantes.
Your attempts to apply a modern notion of race is obvious distortion of the Muslim texts.
as a reference to climatic zones and see it for the pathetic, poorly thought out, afrocentic hogwash it really is.
Sure it it Negrophobe, the Climate Zones were a vital part of their understanding, which is why Al Jahiz wrote a freaking Kitab called, "The Boasts of the Sudan to the Bidan" and his primary focus is against people who supposedly lived in a temperate climate zone. The idea was that people who did not live in the "Temperate" climate Zone were inferior, Blacks were burned by the Sun and Nordics were Pale and too cold. This is attested to by Ibn Khaludun. Who wrote against this notion.
This just goes to show your ignorance on such matters and desperation to eurasianize the Berbers. Geography played a role in their understanding wether you like it or not.
You idiot the sanhaja were a confederation of various berber tribes some who migrated North Some in the Sub Sahara prbably were Black but most likely looked the average North African Today middle eastern which many would describe as brown. Batutta himself was one of them.
And the problem with consuming things in Mexico is the Mexicans, you dolt, not the geography. The water there as well as the food, is dirty because the people don't have the same standard that we do. I shouldn't have to elaborate on this. And it's not just the water. Lol.
Also many of the Bidane in Mauritania look like caostal Berbers which is why they are Bidane. Do I need to post more pictures?
Here is the famous musician Malouma. As you can see she is caucasian, descendant of the Sanhaja according to their tradition.
And you will note that batutta refered to the Land of the Blacks emphasis on phenotype, not land of the heat or land of the aridness. Understand? Batutta viewed people south of the Sahara as being different from himself, along racial lines. We can witness this same difference today when we travel across the Sahara. Nuff said. Now shuffle off and stop wasting my time, kay?
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: You idiot the sanhaja were a confederation of various berber tribes some who migrated North Some in the Sub Sahara prbably were Black but most likely looked the average North African Today middle eastern which many would describe as brown. Batutta himself was one of them.
Once again the Sanhaja were a confederation of Dark Brown to Brown Berbers, mainly Sahran Berbers no different than many Sahran Berbers today. None of the Berbers are "Pale" in any sense of the word and are more related to various SSA people. Nor do they look like Middle Easterners except a minority who intermarried with Arabs.
As proof of your forked tongue squirming compare this direct quote from you made..
quote:Originally posted by Garrig And with the quotes from Arab scholars about so many White Berbers aand a demarcation in Africa separating a land of the blacks from the land of the Whites which corresponds more or less to current present racial boundaries, what is there really that an honest person can argue against?[/qb]
S [/QB][/QUOTE]
One second the Sanhadja are white berbers the next they are brown berbers, you are an idiot, and it was not a "Few Sub Sahran" tribes of the San Hadja described and Equated with blacks it was the majority...
Once again..
quote:"“The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters, active in service, suited both to motherhood and to pleasure, for they are the most solicitous in caring for their children. “"
-Ibn Butlan 11th century
Nasr i Khusrau, an Iranian ruler described the Masmuda soldiers of the Fatimid dynasty as “black Africans”.
See Yaacov Lev, “Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094″, International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies, 19.3 (1987) p. 342.
quote:(At the moment the published DBM list contains no troops that fit this description, and the most likely candidates at this date are probably the Berbers. The Persian traveller Nasir-i Khusrau described Fatimid Masmuda infantry as armed with spear and sword (Yaacov Lev, "Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094", International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies 19.3 (1987), p.342; although Nasir-i Khusrau for some reason describes them as black Africans, the Masmuda are a Berber confederacy).)
-11th Century
Description of Yussef Tachfin leader of the Almoravid Berbers(Sanhadja)..
quote:Yusuf was of “brown color”, of “middle height” with , “ thin, little beard, soft voice” and “woolly hair”
-Roudh el-Kartas” (History of the Rulers of Morocco) by Abd Allah, and A.Beaumier’s French translation of the 14th century work,
^^^^ Modern Bidane of the sahrah, Brown of Color with wholly hair..
Yeah looks live the everyday Iranian and Israeli.. Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Cont..
Further the Saharan Berber Tauregs whose ancestors were the Garamantes were a dark skinned people...
Interstingly they are described as resembling the people of Triakontaschoinos in Northern Sudan. So we have proof of Dark skinned Sahran berbers going way back.
The only evidence that majority of the Sahran Sanhaja were Middle Eastern is from your ass.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Also many of the Bidane in Mauritania look like caostal Berbers which is why they are Bidane. Do I need to post more pictures?
Another Rant bloated out of your smelly arse...
quote:Although culturally homogeneous, the Moors were divided among numerous ethno-linguistic clan groups and were distinguished racially as Beydane and Haratine, or White Moors and Black Moors, although it often was difficult to distinguish between the two groups by skin color. The majority of those known as Black Moors were Haratine, literally meaning "one who has been freed," although some Black Moor families never were enslaved.
As I said Earlier the Bidanes and Haratin have been admixing for years, Bidane have black Heratin blood and vice versa.
Once again..
Some "White Moors"
You can post as many images as you like majotity of the Bidanes of Mauritania look noting like Coastal Berbers who are heavily admixed with various Europeans.
The idea of colorism was not prevelant in Islam, of couse some body who is pitch black is going be singled out as such, however the Term Bidane has no fixed Image, Hell I could go back in those times can claim I am "Bidane" because Im light complexted when compared to the pitch black people in the area..lol.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: You fool. I am part French and have lived in france. They call North Africans Arabs and now the more popular term "Beur". And they don't have any one drop rule. They thought it was strange when I'm told them in the States I was considered Black, when I'm barely darker than most of them. Also most French are not racist either! Your source is talking about racist Italians. Learn to read. The North African/French Zidane is considered a superstar in France.
Of course North Africans are 'Arab' ethnically in that they are Arabized. Many do have Arab ancestry, but you cannot deny the black ancestry in them. Unlike you I never generalized and said "most" French were racist, but that racism exists among French as it does in other European countries is a FACT. The point of my source is that North Africans face racial discrimination regardless of their complexion. I know how Zidane looks like and he looks no different from Mediterranean Europeans (who themselves are mixed anyway), that does not change the black ancestry. Even though French don't follow the same exact racial categories people in the states do, they know that North Africans are mixed, why you don't is a wonder. By the way if you're part French, do you know of the 'Song of Roland'?? I'm sure you can read a modern French transliteration, then. Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: And you will note that batutta refered to the Land of the Blacks emphasis on phenotype, not land of the heat or land of the aridness. Understand? Batutta viewed people south of the Sahara as being different from himself, along racial lines. We can witness this same difference today when we travel across the Sahara. Nuff said. Now shuffle off and stop wasting my time, kay?
Another Strawman fallacy. Once again I already said the people of Sudan were extreemly dark skinned, this is no different than the Greek "Athiopies" where the blackest people on Earth lived.
The Truth is Bidane has no fixed image or meaning someone such Anwar Sedat or resembling him can claim they are Bidane til their ass bleeds but in the end when push comes to shove majority of people around the world will see him as a Black African, as was the case with the Garamantes and Moors with the Greeks and Ibn Butlan, Nasir-i Khusrau etc with the Sanhadja. What you want is to use Ibn Bhattuta to push some Modern "Negro/Caucasian" B.S propagnda which is what you are desperatly trying to do. but it wont work bub.
Other than that the Bilad es Sudan did have connotations to enviroment which is why in the very evidence you quoted it is claimed that if a Person moves to the Sudan from the MEgreb they will take on a Sudani appearace and vice versa.
Why do you think in Kitab "Boasts of the Sudan to Bidan" so many tribes and people who don't live in Sudan are called out for being dark.
You are a waste of my time.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Indeed.
Note the Moroccan man shares the same complexion as the Ethiopian man.
But I suppose he is merely "tanned". Posted by xm (Member # 19601) on :
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Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: You fool. I am part French and have lived in france. They call North Africans Arabs and now the more popular term "Beur". And they don't have any one drop rule. They thought it was strange when I'm told them in the States I was considered Black, when I'm barely darker than most of them. Also most French are not racist either! Your source is talking about racist Italians. Learn to read. The North African/French Zidane is considered a superstar in France.
Of course North Africans are 'Arab' ethnically in that they are Arabized. Many do have Arab ancestry, but you cannot deny the black ancestry in them. Unlike you I never generalized and said "most" French were racist, but that racism exists among French as it does in other European countries is a FACT. The point of my source is that North Africans face racial discrimination regardless of their complexion. I know how Zidane looks like and he looks no different from Mediterranean Europeans (who themselves are mixed anyway), that does not change the black ancestry. Even though French don't follow the same exact racial categories people in the states do, they know that North Africans are mixed, why you don't is a wonder. By the way if you're part French, do you know of the 'Song of Roland'?? I'm sure you can read a modern French transliteration, then.
I don't even know if the French know that North Africans are mixed with Black. I have never heard it mentioned. They are not obessed with who has Black in them etc. Many famous French folks have North African ancestry Like Isabel Adjani Edith Piaf etc. Do you think anybody cares?? Yeah I know about the the Song of Roland, it's a work of fiction
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
One second the Sanhadja are white berbers the next they are brown berbers, you are an idiot, and it was not a "Few Sub Sahran" tribes of the San Hadja described and Equated with blacks it was the majority
You don't give up do you? If you notice it is Batutta who uses the term White, which I equate with Midlle Eastern.
The peoples of Awdaghast were white-skinned Berbers of the Sanhaja tribal confederation who had arrived from the western Sahara about a century before Ibn Batutta The quest for El Cid By Richard A. Fletcher
In the 12 century the Sanhaja prohibeted marriage with Blacks.
quote:You don't give up do you? If you notice it is Batutta who uses the term White, which I equate with Midlle Eastern.
The peoples of Awdaghast were white-skinned Berbers of the Sanhaja tribal confederation who had arrived from the western Sahara about a century before Ibn Batutta The quest for El Cid By Richard A. Fletcher
So Im sure you will be able to give us the original word in Arabic where Bhutatta says "White Skinned Berbers" will you. As I said Bidane has nothing to do with being middle Eastern and no fixed image.
BTW, why should I give up when I have evidence and history on my side. I believe the person spinning and struggling here is you..LMAO.
In the 12 century the Sanhaja prohibeted marriage with Blacks.
Another rant spouted out of your ass with no evidence. Im not even going to dignify this response. Any person who level headed and unbiased will know that the Sanhadja did in fact intermarry with blacks as did the Bidanes in Mauritania etc. As a matter of fact Islam forbids laws against intermarriage.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
I retract the above statment it seems some of the Sanhadja did prohibit marriage with Sudanis but it had nothing to do with race of course as it pertained to the fact that the Sanhaja were rivals of the Sudanis like the Ghana empire. Prior to that Berbers in Migrebi openly married Sudanis/Sonnoke wives..
Further this helps prove that the Sanhadja both those of the Western Saharah and of the Central Saharah(Tauregs) were Dark brown to black skinned people with out much intermarriage from blacks by being "Pushed South" and the liar above will envoke when black berbers are bought up in other threads..
Once again...
Once again..
quote:"“The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters, active in service, suited both to motherhood and to pleasure, for they are the most solicitous in caring for their children. “"
-Ibn Butlan 11th century
Nasr i Khusrau, an Iranian ruler described the Masmuda soldiers of the Fatimid dynasty as “black Africans”.
See Yaacov Lev, “Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094″, International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies, 19.3 (1987) p. 342.
quote:(At the moment the published DBM list contains no troops that fit this description, and the most likely candidates at this date are probably the Berbers. The Persian traveller Nasir-i Khusrau described Fatimid Masmuda infantry as armed with spear and sword (Yaacov Lev, "Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094", International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies 19.3 (1987), p.342; although Nasir-i Khusrau for some reason describes them as black Africans, the Masmuda are a Berber confederacy).)
-11th Century
Description of Yussef Tachfin leader of the Almoravid Berbers(Sanhadja)..
quote:Yusuf was of “brown color”, of “middle height” with , “ thin, little beard, soft voice” and “woolly hair”
-Roudh el-Kartas” (History of the Rulers of Morocco) by Abd Allah, and A.Beaumier’s French translation of the 14th century work,
^^^^ Modern Bidane of the sahrah, Brown of Color with wholly hair..
Its pretty consistant, if the Sanhadja prohibited intermarriage with Sudanis this is more devestating to the liars case than ever. Im sure he is currently googling "White Sanhaja Berbers" in a frantic attempt to save face and white wash the sanhaja...LMAO.
BTW, the Mother of the Almoravid Sultan Mulay Ahmed Al-Mansur was a Fulani, so much for not intermarrying Sudanis..LOL.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: ^ Note they said people of *African* descent NOT "Sub-Saharan" or black skin! Many French racists would call North Africans 'macaca', the same epithet they used against blacks in their former sub-Saharan colonies. They also use the term 'bâtard' meaning mongrel or mulâtre (mulatto) for many North Africans. Of course they even use the word 'nègre' (n*gger), no doubt expressing their own "one drop rule". You see unlike you, the French do not deny the obvious FACT that most North African immigrants are of mixed indigenous (black) and Arab or other ancestry!
You fool. I am part French and have lived in france. They call North Afircans Arabs and now the more popular term "Beur". And they don't have any one drop rule. They thought it was strange when I'm told themn in the States I was considered Black, when I'm barely darker than most of them. Also most French are not racist either! Your source is talking about racist Italians. Learn to read. The North African/French Zidane is considered a superstar in France.
you are right Garrig the most racist i found up there in France are u near white and even yellowish moroccans. Kabyles in France like yourself are just Francophiles or wannabe white French !
In fact that is why we are having this discussion now isn't it. And why you are so tediously trying to make the French or Europeans into paleolithic North Africans.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: One second the Sanhadja are white berbers the next they are brown berbers, you are an idiot, and it was not a "Few Sub Sahran" tribes of the San Hadja described and Equated with blacks it was the majority
You don't give up do you? If you notice it is Batutta who uses the term White, which I equate with Midlle Eastern.
The peoples of Awdaghast were white-skinned Berbers of the Sanhaja tribal confederation who had arrived from the western Sahara about a century before Ibn Batutta The quest for El Cid By Richard A. Fletcher
In the 12 century the Sanhaja prohibeted marriage with Blacks.
The known Tuareg tribes i.e. Berbers of Audoghast are just like the Bidane man Jari posted above. That is what "white" meant and means in Sahara. What are u not getting about that.
Unfortunately for you even the Fulani, Zaghai or Songhoi and Sarakholle are called "white" in some texts.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Cont..
Further the Saharan Berber Tauregs whose ancestors were the Garamantes were a dark skinned people...
Interstingly they are described as resembling the people of Triakontaschoinos in Northern Sudan. So we have proof of Dark skinned Sahran berbers going way back.
The only evidence that majority of the Sahran Sanhaja were Middle Eastern is from your ass.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Also many of the Bidane in Mauritania look like caostal Berbers which is why they are Bidane. Do I need to post more pictures?
Another Rant bloated out of your smelly arse...
quote:Although culturally homogeneous, the Moors were divided among numerous ethno-linguistic clan groups and were distinguished racially as Beydane and Haratine, or White Moors and Black Moors, although it often was difficult to distinguish between the two groups by skin color. The majority of those known as Black Moors were Haratine, literally meaning "one who has been freed," although some Black Moor families never were enslaved.
As I said Earlier the Bidanes and Haratin have been admixing for years, Bidane have black Heratin blood and vice versa.
Once again..
Some "White Moors"
You can post as many images as you like majotity of the Bidanes of Mauritania look noting like Coastal Berbers who are heavily admixed with various Europeans.
The idea of colorism was not prevelant in Islam, of couse some body who is pitch black is going be singled out as such, however the Term Bidane has no fixed Image, Hell I could go back in those times can claim I am "Bidane" because Im light complexted when compared to the pitch black people in the area..lol.
Garamantes were the agricultural people called Garawa, Ghuwara, Germa, Garama, Jerma, Djerma-Songhai, Zarma throughout the Sahara Fezzan, and Sahel. They were related to the people Tidamansii and Gamphasantes (possibly the N'gam of the Zaghawa) according to the Greeks. Garamantes were invaded by the nomadic Libyan Nasamones or Pharusii or Iforas ancestral Tuareg a people who still hate the plough at one point a people related to the Afar of Eritrea and Arabia.
Both of these people belonging o the original "Libyans" have lived in contiguous relationship ever since.
The Sanhaja included the Lam Lamt,Lamtuna modern Kel Aulamidden clan of the Tuareg, Zaghai or Zaghawa, and the Gaituli or Goddala (Fulani or Bani Warith) known as Waritan Sanhaja. Most Sanhaja were Tuareg.
It is not uncommon for African Americans who are brown to be referred to as white in Africa.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: (Cont. because this peice of sh#t won't let me post my full reply.)
Description of Yussef Tachfin leader of the Almoravid Berbers(Sanhadja)..
quote:Yusuf was of “brown color”, of “middle height” with , “ thin, little beard, soft voice” and “woolly hair”
-Roudh el-Kartas” (History of the Rulers of Morocco) by Abd Allah, and A.Beaumier’s French translation of the 14th century work,
The Sanhadja would have been dark to Meduim Reddish brown with Woolly hair..
[
quote:Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra- Saharan Africa.
- Frigi et al.
Clearly despite your desperate attempts to dismiss and squirm your way out of this beat down you are getting the Sanhadja were seen as black, brown and dark skinned Africans no Eurasians or Whites etc despite them being lighter than the Average SSA.
All you really have is Semantics at this point, after you realized that even the Bidane Moors of Mauretania are for the most part not Pale as you tried to imply earlier.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: You get sick in Mexico because the difference in hygeine and food preparation..
Dummy what does "Drinking the Water in Mexico" have to do with Hygene and food preparation. Are you willfully ingnorant or as dense as you act.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: in other words GERMS! GERMS! GERMS! That has nothing to do with geography, you fool.
It has everything to do with Geography and location, you fool. The fact of the matter is people only have this view with Mexico, a Location not with Mexicans a people.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Moreover why would the land of the Blacks begin smack dab in the middle of Mauritania?? What geographical phenomena makes the area more significan t than surrounding areas? NONE! Seems like you would do better grabing at sand than trying to make actual sense..anyway.
The Land of Blacks was the area where the darkest people on Earth according to Muslims lived. Once again being black and white then was different than today, and black people had lived in the Megreb, Arabia and North Africa from the dawn of history. A good example of white and black in the Muslim sense..
This man was seen as white/Bidane/Arab by the Arab Muslims..
The thing as demonstrated over and over again is that being Bidan has nothing to do with race as mixed people and people with Dark to Medium brown skin and features(Hair, Culture, Facial) similar to so called Sudanis would be Bidan like
Anwar.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: I don't need to cuz any sensible person can take a look at what you wrote about Battuta using the term White men and Black men with no racial significance
You have me confused, what I am saying is that when Ibn Bhattuta uses white or Bidan he is including people who could be Dark Brown to Beige etc. in color a wide range of people while blacks were the darkest people on Earth.
Many of the Sahran people are Dark Brown to black skinned going back to the Garamantes.
Your attempts to apply a modern notion of race is obvious distortion of the Muslim texts.
as a reference to climatic zones and see it for the pathetic, poorly thought out, afrocentic hogwash it really is.
Sure it it Negrophobe, the Climate Zones were a vital part of their understanding, which is why Al Jahiz wrote a freaking Kitab called, "The Boasts of the Sudan to the Bidan" and his primary focus is against people who supposedly lived in a temperate climate zone. The idea was that people who did not live in the "Temperate" climate Zone were inferior, Blacks were burned by the Sun and Nordics were Pale and too cold. This is attested to by Ibn Khaludun. Who wrote against this notion.
This just goes to show your ignorance on such matters and desperation to eurasianize the Berbers. Geography played a role in their understanding wether you like it or not.
You idiot the sanhaja were a confederation of various berber tribes some who migrated North Some in the Sub Sahara prbably were Black but most likely looked the average North African Today middle eastern which many would describe as brown. Batutta himself was one of them.
And the problem with consuming things in Mexico is the Mexicans, you dolt, not the geography. The water there as well as the food, is dirty because the people don't have the same standard that we do. I shouldn't have to elaborate on this. And it's not just the water. Lol.
Also many of the Bidane in Mauritania look like caostal Berbers which is why they are Bidane. Do I need to post more pictures?
Here is the famous musician Malouma. As you can see she is caucasian, descendant of the Sanhaja according to their tradition.
kay?
The Tuareg - a Sanhaja or Berber people - use to kill women whose complexion were of her color. Colonial texts tell of how a European woman had the gall to try to ride into their territory and how she had her arm lopped off by sword of a Tuareg who thought she was a ghost.
Up until the Almoravid period when the "Moors" including Tuareg were commonly seen by 19th century Europeans dragging Europeans through desert, the Sanhaja like the rest of Berbers were dark brown and near black in color like most of Tuareg are today.
Let us not forget what the 11th century Ibn Butlan said. "The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though SOME PALE ONES can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of SANHAJA, and whose origin is Masmuda,..." He said the Beja were golden in complexion.
Where does that leave this woman above if in the 11th century Berbers are black and Beja are golden.
Sorry, but one cannot dream into existence what has already taken place. History has already happened. If the entirety of all Berber-speakers comes to be pale or fair-skinned like the woman above in the coming decades that will still leave the Berbers of the time of the period of Moorish conquests what they were - mostly black with a few pale concubines among them.
BTW - Ibn Battuta is not the only writer who calls the Tuareg white, and the Tuareg and Fulani (Sanhaja) are not the only Africans called white in Arabic sources. The Abyssinians are also called "white" in some texts.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Jari is right. The malcontent is living in la-la land. He is desperate to white-wash North Africa because he knows that his people (Europeans) especially southern Europeans along the Mediterranean have mixed ancestry from North Africans, so he tries to sooth this by pretending such North Africans were never black not even in ancient times.
quote:Originally posted by malcontent7: I don't even know if the French know that North Africans are mixed with Black. I have never heard it mentioned. They are not obsessed with who has Black in them etc. Many famous French folks have North African ancestry Like Isabel Adjani Edith Piaf etc.
Not just the French but all Europeans (at least those not delusional or brainwashed) know that North Africa especially historically had as indigenous inhabitants black people who were later admixed with other peoples mainly Arabs but some Europeans as well. I already showed one famous European of North African ancestry, namely Alessandro de Medici and you remember how he looked.
quote:Do you think anybody cares??
YOU apparently care a little too much.
quote:Yeah I know about the the Song of Roland, it's a work of fiction
So I take it their description of Moors as black was fictional as well even though every other document and texts describes them as black and even the very term 'Moor' means black! Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
1).
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
quote: The peoples of Awdaghast were white-skinned Berbers of the Sanhaja tribal confederation who had arrived from the western Sahara about a century before Ibn Batutta The quest for El Cid By Richard A. Fletcher
So Im sure you will be able to give us the original word in Arabic where Bhutatta says "White Skinned Berbers" will you.
Don't get caught up. Melanophobe7 often writes a lead in to a modern work as if it were a primary document. In this case the provided quote, once again without proper citation, was not made by ibn Battuta nor any other medieval era NorthWest African.
This however is beside the fact that contemporaneous authors in the west whether Sudane, Berber, or Arab all juxtaposed Sudane (blacks from the 1st and 2nd Zones -- Lamlam, Kanem, Bornu, Gao) and Bidane (whites from the 2nd Zone -- Lemtah, Sanhadja). Note that Ghana cusped both sectors. See - ibn Khaldun, Muqaddimah, 1.95-96, 102.
Needless to say the whites of Zone 2 were not ghastly skinned, protruding nose, lipless, true whites, i.e., the NorthWest European/Scandinavian dwellers of Zone 7.
In the linked work, Vincent Cornell, fails to name the subject Sanhaja man or his wife by way of the text or a footnote. How does one follow up on this story when it lacks what's necessary for independent confirmation?
.
3).
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Jari is right. The malcontent is living in la-la land. He is desperate to white-wash North Africa because he knows that his people (Europeans) especially southern Europeans along the Mediterranean have mixed ancestry from North Africans, so he tries to sooth this by pretending such North Africans were never black not even in ancient times.
His attempted rebuttals help him ease his way as a "white" man into places where low percentages of black ancestry are no bar to whiteness especially when the one having noticeable African ancestry constantly derides blacks and up plays whites.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Not just the French but all Europeans (at least those not delusional or brainwashed) know that North Africa especially historically had as indigenous inhabitants black people who were later admixed with other peoples mainly Arabs but some Europeans as well.
Such are the facts revealed by ancient to current investigators and commentators all noting North Africa had its own black phenotype different in its particulars as do many west, central, east and southern black specific phenotypes differ in their particulars though they are all recognizable as blacks.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
I retract the above statment it seems some of the Sanhadja did prohibit marriage with Sudanis but it had nothing to do with race of course.
Riiiiighhht!
Here are the Bidane Maurs.
Unless you have been totally lobotomized you would realize there is no way they could remain this light over the centuries unless they kept to themselves. There has clearly been an aparthied in Mauritania and there is a strong racial element involved. Aparently they felt that light skin was the property of the the true berbers/Sanhaja and they have sought to preserve this.
Here are Black Mauritanians
You can try to squirm all you want and make claims about what was...many years ago, and dispute the meaning of simple words like White and Black etc. Thats all afrocentrics are good for. But pictures don't lie.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Needless to say the whites of Zone 2 were not ghastly skinned, protruding nose, lipless, true whites, i.e., the NorthWest European/Scandinavian dwellers of Zone
Why should they be? Lol thats your silly way or reckoning. Scandinavians are the extreme. Most Europeans and Caucasians don't look like freakin Scandinvains. Mediterrean people and Middle Easterners are much closer to Europeans than to Sub Saharan Africans in fact Mediterraneans are the orginal Caucasians.
His attempted rebuttals help him ease his way as a "white" man into places where low percentages of black ancestry are no bar to whiteness especially when the one having noticeable African ancestry constantly derides blacks and up plays whites.
I am not considered White by anyone. Nor do I want to be. Stop trying to project your outdated and simplistic racialist notions on my intentions.
I have no problem being non white and it has not been a burden or problem for me in anyway. I know you are an African your views of what really race relations are like in the US. I know the French and other Europeans seem to think that Blacks Americans are always being oppressed or mistreated by society at large. That is total Bs. You need to listen to Herman Cain. That man speaks the truth, which is why many Blacks hate him.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Jari is right. The malcontent is living in la-la land. He is desperate to white-wash North Africa because he knows that his people (Europeans) especially southern Europeans along the Mediterranean have mixed ancestry from North Africans, so he tries to sooth this by pretending such North Africans were never black not even in ancient times.
That would be a strange motivation on my part considering that I am not even White myself. You are essentially arguing about the Moors. And no most weren't Black though some were.
Not just the French but all Europeans (at least those not delusional or brainwashed) know that North Africa especially historically had as indigenous inhabitants black people who were later admixed with other peoples mainly Arabs but some Europeans as well. I already showed one famous European of North African ancestry, namely Alessandro de Medici and you remember how he looked.
No, I don't know that the French think that North Africa was originally Black. In fact when I went to school they hardly talk about the Moors at all only about French colonization, and the war of independence in Algeria etc. But as far as Medici, a lot of people in Southern Europe spain, Italy even France are naturally swarthy, that doesn't necessarily mean the have Black ancestry, but then you never know Look at the famous French Designer Christian Louboutin.
He looks like he could be part Black..in fact he looks like me but I don't believe he claims any Black ancestry
So I take it their description of Moors as black was fictional as well even though every other document and texts describes them as black and even the very term 'Moor' means black
First of all its a work of fiction you can't quite take its descriptions at face value. But yohooti since you seem like a decent lad I'm going to clue you in on something..And that is, in the Song of Roland, many of the armies of Moors are listed as coming from North Africa "Carthage", "Alfeme", "Garmalie", But the Blacks one are said to come Ethiopia! If they thought were North Africans Black then they wouldn't need to bring up Ethiopia. Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Riiiiighhht!
Here are the Bidane Maurs.
Ive posted plenty of Bidane Moors for an unbiased person without any emotional attatchment to the issue to judge. No need to cherry pick when we have this..
quote:Although culturally homogeneous, the Moors were divided among numerous ethno-linguistic clan groups and were distinguished racially as Beydane and Haratine, or White Moors and Black Moors, although it often was difficult to distinguish between the two groups by skin color. The majority of those known as Black Moors were Haratine, literally meaning "one who has been freed," although some Black Moor families never were enslaved.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Unless you have been totally lobotomized you would realize there is no way they could remain this light over the centuries unless they kept to themselves.
You posted 3 pictures, I posted a varified Source, More than 10 Images of large crowds etc. You emotional ranting defies logic. Obviously a minority still remain light but even they are no where near pale and the majority are Brown Skinned with African features. Check my previous images.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: There has clearly been an aparthied in Mauritania and there is a strong racial element involved. Aparently they felt that light skin was the property of the the true berbers/Sanhaja and they have sought to preserve this.
This is your opinion and I can give two shits if you accept it or not. The idea of Bidane as been demonstated over and over again has nothing to do with skin color but with paternity, I.E a Male "Arab" lineage. The "Apartied" was that of a Warrior caste, prior to the French the Moors conquered the natives and formed a warrior caste. The Apartied is a mix of post colonial conflict, Arabization etc. Funny part is the black moors see themselves seperate from so called "Black Africans" etc.
quote:Although culturally homogeneous, the Moors were divided among numerous ethno-linguistic clan groups and were distinguished racially as Beydane and Haratine, or White Moors and Black Moors, although it often was difficult to distinguish between the two groups by skin color. The majority of those known as Black Moors were Haratine, literally meaning "one who has been freed," although some Black Moor families never were enslaved.
quote:“White”, Bidan or Beydane Moors historically enslaved by the “black” Moors, sometimes called Haratine, and slavery at differing levels is still much in evidence in contemporary Mauritania. (The words “black” and “white” are misleading in this context in that they do not denote colour, but rather paternal descent).
More
quote:Once free, however, ex-slaves are subject to continuing discrimination, by the elite moors and the smaller black elite, from whom they are distinguishable in appearance (Haratine Moors may range all the way between black and white)
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: You can try to squirm all you want and make claims about what was...many years ago, and dispute the meaning of simple words like White and Black etc. Thats all afrocentrics are good for. But pictures don't lie.
Im not the one squirming, The evidence is on my side no matter how you look at it. The Truth be told many Berbers don't even know about the "White Moor"/"Black Moor" conflict nor is this wide spread. Further the Bidanes/Haratine situation is a paternal/Subjugation conflict. This is no different than Sudan and Darfur. Any form of racism is due to Paternal conflict from long ago and a Colonial mentality etc.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Beautiful Moorish Bidane Singer...
Aziza brahim
Bautiful Mauritanian Moorish Woman and Singer
Dimi Mint Abba(R.I.P)
More Bidanes and Mauritanians
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
More Mauritanians..
Adrar region..
Oudane
Northern Mauritania
Coastal Mauritania
Adrar region
One of the men anove is named "Keith" the othe Mohammed...Wonder who the Mauritanian man is.. Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Taureg from Mauritania
Taureg Berber Girl from Ghadames Lybia
Noble Taureg..
Taureg Woman Ghadamis Lybia
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^^ LOL Does the malcontent idiot think we are dumber than him to buy his claims as well as his select few pictures?!...
You already cited two sources saying that the division of 'Bidan' and 'Haratin' had nothing to do with skin color as both divisions share many of the same complexions but more about paternal ancestry!
You know that's funny because even the malcontent has admitted in a couple of occasions that traditional Berber culture is matrilineal yet he forgets that many Berber groups were Arabized in varying degrees with some emphasizing Arab paternal ancestry via the Hassaniya and other Arab tribes. We already know that these same more patriarchal Arabs were the instigators of importing white European women as slaves and concubines into North Africa!
Again this explains the 'mulatto' appearance of many North Africans including Mauritanians.
quote:Originally posted by malcontent7:
Here are the Bidane Maurs.
^ LMAO His pics remind me of select pics of Pakistani and Indian women with the same complexion. Apparently the fool does not know that skin bleaching is a common problem in many parts of Africa.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Yes but what we have to understand is that Arabs or Eurasians invaded North Africa during the common era. Many of the Bidanes who are light reflect this history as the Bidanes claim Arab history....
quote: Anyway, in commemmoration of this event, I will talk a little about Zenaga this week. Zenaga is the nearly-extinct Berber language of Mauritania. Until about five hundred years ago it was spoken throughout most of the country; its ancestor would have been the language of the Almoravids. However, after the main Berber tribe, the Lamtuna, was defeated by the Arab Beni Ma`qil, most tribes gradually shifted to Hassaniya Arabic, which itself came to contain numerous Zenaga loanwords. The "marabout" tribes, those specialising in Islamic religious learning, retained Zenaga longest, and to this day it continues to be used, at least by the elderly, in a few areas near the southern Atlantic coast. It is remarkably divergent from other Berber varieties, due partly to a number of sound shifts (x > k, l > dj) and partly to a rather different vocabulary, incorporating words rare elsewhere in Berber along with Wolof and Pulaar loanwords. In addition to influencing Hassaniya Arabic, it has also contributed a number of loanwords to the Azer dialect of Soninke, and several words - notably the words for three of the five prayer times, and some religious holidays - to Wolof. Catherine Taine-Cheikh has been doing some documentation of it.
At least one of the few books on this language is available online: Le Zénaga des tribus sénégalaises, by General Faidherbe - although, chillingly, the author dedicates it to the genocidal mass murderer King Leopold II.
possible Zenegas (many of the Mauritanian Manuscripts are works of the Sanhaja therefore its only logical that the people who own them are descendants of the Sahaja scholarly elite just as in Timbuctoo..etc..)
Notice they wear the colors of the Nobles/Berbers/Moors..
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Yes but what we have to understand is that Arabs or Eurasians invaded North Africa during the common era. Many of the Bidanes who are light reflect this history as the Bidanes claim Arab history....
Eurasians invaded North Africa during before the common era and after the common era. This includes, Vandals, Sea people and Phoenicians. One example, Carthage, at it's height had a population of a half millon people.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
^^^^ True, but do you make of the Bidane Hassinya/Zenaga black Moor Situation given the evidence of Arabization and the Bani Hilial and other Arab invasions to North Africa..
In a recent publication, Bosch et al. (2001) reported on Y-chromosome variation in populations from northwestern (NW) Africa and the Iberian peninsula. They observed a high degree of genetic homogeneity among the NW African Y chromosomes of Moroccan Arabs, Moroccan Berbers, and Saharawis, leading the authors to hypothesize that “the Arabization and Islamization of NW Africa, starting during the 7th century ad, … [were] cultural phenomena without extensive genetic replacement” (p. 1023). H71 (Eu10) was found to be the second-most-frequent haplogroup in that area. Following the hypothesis of Semino et al. (2000), the authors suggested that this haplogroup had spread out from the Middle East with the Neolithic wave of advance. Our recent findings (Nebel et al. 2000, 2001), however, suggest that the majority of Eu10 chromosomes in NW Africa are due to recent gene flow caused by the migration of Arabian tribes in the first millennium of the Common Era (ce).
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Outstanding research and presentation there Jari.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Jari,
No matter how many pictures you post you can not avoid certain facts, namely that Mauriatania is deep into Africa and much of it was considered land of the Blacks by Batutta so the indigenous would be Blacks. And yet you have so many light skinned people who call themselves Bidan and claim descent from Sanhaja Berbers and Arabs who came from the north. Obviously these light traits are not native to the indigenous and most have come with the invasion of the Sanhaja. Therefore the Snahja must have been light skinned with sharp Eurasian features. and they didn't use the term White and Black to contrats themsleves with the natives for nothing. Common sense dude. Ok so many did mix, but the orgigianl light phenotype is there. You don't to be a genius to realize that. Even Dana knows it but she will lie and spin, and spin some more.
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
Does the malcontent idiot think we are dumber than him to buy his claims as well as his select few pictures?!...
You already cited two sources saying that the division of 'Bidan' and 'Haratin' had nothing to do with skin color as both divisions share many of the same complexions but more about paternal ancestry!
If your intent is to claim that the invading Sanhaja berbers who invaded looked the same as the native Mauretanians and that the term Bidan was no bearing at all on having lighter skin, than yeah..I would guess that you are dumber than me.
Click on this to see what upper class Moors look like.
The Tuareg - a Sanhaja or Berber people - use to kill women whose complexion were of her color. Colonial texts tell of how a European woman had the gall to try to ride into their territory and how she had her arm lopped off by sword of a Tuareg who thought she was a ghost.
Yeah that's why the Tuareg of the Fezzan have higher frequencies of European mtDNA H1, more than any other population in the world! Looks like they luved them some white women.
Stop hatin'!
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: No matter how many pictures you post you can not avoid certain facts, namely that Mauriatania is deep into Africa and much of it was considered land of the Blacks by Batutta so the indigenous would be Blacks. And yet you have so many light skinned people who call themselves Bidan and claim descent from Sanhaja Berbers and Arabs who came from the north
At this point its just a matter of emotional denial of facts. I already posted evidence and corroborating Images that the Bidane is all about Paternal decent not skin color. The Bidanes actually conquered the Sanhadja and subjugated them as well. Further I posted Images of the people who own the Damn Manuscripts with "Almoravid" and Sanhadja Law etc. As I said earlier an unbiased observer can see clearly that the Sanhaja were close in resemblence to Black Africans..
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Obviously these light traits are not native to the indigenous and most have come with the invasion of the Sanhaja.
No whats obvious is you are an emotionally driven cry baby who tries to distort and run in circles. First off the "Light" Bidanes speak Hassinya Arabic and descend from an Arabic people who conquered the Zenega as well as the Sonnike and Wolof people of Mauritania. It has already been established that the Sanhaja were in the large "Brown and Black" with a few Pale one among them as well as being compared to black Africans in the Fatimid Army.
You claiming that the Bidanes are the Sanhaja and not Arabs despite the language and obvious history has no support.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Therefore the Snahja must have been light skinned with sharp Eurasian features.
You have been claiming this for 3 pages with not a drop of supporting evidence.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: and they didn't use the term White and Black to contrats themsleves with the natives for nothing. Common sense dude.
The Term White and black here is subjective. People who look like Anwar Sedat would have been called "White", so trying to impose western ideology on Islamic sources is a point of desperation.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Ok so many did mix, but the orgigianl light phenotype is there.
A representation of the Invader Arabs.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: You don't to be a genius to realize that. Even Dana knows it but she will lie and spin, and spin some more.
The only person lying and distorting here is you, both here and on the R1b thread. I realize why, it hurts your feelings that there were black berbers, a win for so called "Afrocentrism"..lol
Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
At this point its just a matter of emotional denial of facts. I already posted evidence and corroborating Images that the Bidane is all about Paternal decent not skin color. The Bidanes actually conquered the Sanhadja and subjugated them as well. Further I posted Images of the people who own the Damn Manuscripts with "Almoravid" and Sanhadja Law etc. As I said earlier an unbiased observer can see clearly that the Sanhaja were close in resemblence to Black Africans..
Dude you yourself mention that the Bidan Moors claim descent from Beni Hassan Arabs who we know are not Black Africans. Now should one think it's a coindince that they distinguish themsleves by calling themselves Bidan?? Are you freakin serious?? Oh yeah they were a mixture of Sanhaja Berbers too, so still light. So it was about color after all.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Dude you yourself mention that the Bidan Moors claim descent from Beni Hassan Arabs who we know are not Black Africans.
And, what the hell is your point?? We are talking about the Sanhaja not Arabs. BTW, not all Arabs are light some can be quite Dark etc. Even you yourself have contended that the aboriginal Arabs were "Veddiod" people with Africoid features. There is still a presence of this type on Socotra Island in Yemen. I doubt these people came into Africa but it gives you something to think about when it comes to "Eurasians" many Socotrans look like HOA's and other Kushites.
quote:Are you freakin serious?? Oh yeah they were a mixture of Sanhaja Berbers too, so still light. So it was about color after all.
They mixed with Sanhaja, Sudanis etc. This bears out in the Hassinya language with Sonnike and Zenega loan words.Once again has nothing to do with color but paternal decent, which is why you have "Blacks" in the Bidane class. This is how Islamic cultures work, again Anwar sedat. This is a verified fact if you accept it or not.
The woman I posted Dimi Mint Abbas was a Bidane Moor of a lower rank called iggawin. Her Low rank had nothing to do with color but the fact that it was the Musician class. Don't you get it, originally the "Castes" were a Warrior caste, both Sudanis, and Zenaga berbers were conquered.
Look as Dimi she looks very similar to the people who one the Almoravid Libraries, I even posted a Maurabout the people who speak the Zenega language. These people are all Brown and Dark Brown with African Features.
Im really starting to think you are mildly retarded. You can't seem to retain basic information..once again reguarding the Sanhaja..
Once Again..
quote:"“The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters, active in service, suited both to motherhood and to pleasure, for they are the most solicitous in caring for their children. “"
-Ibn Butlan
11th Century..
Nasr i Khusrau, an Iranian ruler described the Masmuda soldiers of the Fatimid dynasty as “black Africans”.
-11th Century
See Yaacov Lev, “Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094″, International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies, 19.3 (1987) p. 342.
quote:(At the moment the published DBM list contains no troops that fit this description, and the most likely candidates at this date are probably the Berbers. The Persian traveller Nasir-i Khusrau described Fatimid Masmuda infantry as armed with spear and sword (Yaacov Lev, "Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094", International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies 19.3 (1987), p.342; although Nasir-i Khusrau for some reason describes them as black Africans, the Masmuda are a Berber confederacy).)
.........The Taureq Bani Tanamek were counted among the Sanhadja............
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
The Garamantes AKA Taureg AKA Banu Tanamek of the Sanhadja were compared to Northern Sudanese(Triakontaschoinos) by Greco Romans
N.Sudanese
Taureg..
Description of Yussef Tachfin leader of the Almoravid Berbers(Sanhadja)..
quote:Yusuf was of “brown color”, of “middle height” with , “ thin, little beard, soft voice” and “woolly hair”
-Roudh el-Kartas” (History of the Rulers of Morocco) by Abd Allah, and A.Beaumier’s French translation of the 14th century work,
Modern Sanhaja with Brown Skin and Wholly hair..
Yussuf Tachfin was not alone, the Almohad Sultan Mulay Al Mansur's mother was a Sudani, Fulani.
Give it up already bro, you lost this one..
Im sorry..
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
BTW, Garrig the Woman I posted Dimi Mint Abbas, was a Moorish Singer of the rank iggawin, a Low rank in the Moorish class. She looks similar to the Mauritanians who own the Manuscripts, many of which have Almoravid law.
A good way to explain how colorism in Islam works is to imagine the opposite of the One Drop Rule. One drop of Arab blood makes one "Arab"..
There is too much proof establishing the Dark skinned Africoid appearance of the Saharan Berbers. I honestly don't understand why this bothers you so..
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ I already explained why it bothers him so much...
It is because he knows Europeans especially southern Europeans along the Mediterranean have mixed ancestry via North Africans so he like the other Euronuts are left with no option but to white-wash North Africans and that includes not only Egyptians but Berbers. By white-washing North Africa they can segregate Europeans further from blacks whom they fear "contamination" by.
This white-washing is futile as it is pathetic but it is all they have left. Unfortunately as we've seen with folks like Perahu and Evil-Euro, they eventually stumble onto the problem that North Africa's populations are continuous with those of [black] Sub-Sahara and are thus forced to white-wash that region as well.
It is a sick and twisted game based on an equally sick mentality.
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
If your intent is to claim that the invading Sanhaja berbers who invaded looked the same as the native Mauretanians and that the term Bidan was no bearing at all on having lighter skin, than yeah..I would guess that you are dumber than me.
"In this translation the term 'Sudan' refers to the land area, and 'sadan' to the people. Arabic- or Berber-speaking Saharans often refer to themselves, by contrast, as bidan-'whites'. As observed in the introduction, these categories are referents of cultural practices rather than of skin colours.-- John Hunwick
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Frank Snowden, Before Color Prejudice, p 9
On the other hand when ancient authors called specific attention only to color of certian Garamantes and Mauri, and made implied comparisions with Ethiopians they were perhaps describing racially mixed segments Gladiators from the Zliten mosaic
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ And your point??
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Why do you assume that the skin tone in that spam is of someone who is "racially mixed"? Is that skin tone your example of the so-called "intermediate" phenotype you were so afraid to clarify for Evergreen in another thread?
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Why do you assume that the skin tone in that spam is of someone who is "racially mixed"? Is that skin tone your example of the so-called "intermediate" phenotype you were so afraid to clarify for Evergreen in another thread?
I assumed nothing, such skin tone overlap. A Palestinian may have both parents of the same skin tone (intermediate) A black person and white person may have a child who has the same skin tone as the Palestinian(mixed) . The Palestinian and mulatto may have the same skin tone as certain pure African people.
However I made no claim. I simply posted the Zliten gladiators which is mentioned in jari's so it is not spam, and I repeated a Snowden quote that was already in the text he put up.
Conclusion: the situation is uncertain or at least variable
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
"they were perhaps describing racially mixed segments"
You made an assumption. Dunce kitten.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Let's not also forget the context. 'Racially mixed' between what groups? They obviously weren't referring to any white people present. If anything the source points to admixture between the (darker) Ethiopians and the (lighter) Mauri. It's noticeable that the source uses "negroid", though obviously such a racial concept did not exist for these Roman writers let alone was used. Though as Takruri has pointed out color or shade differences were obviously noted by them.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Correct..
For the Lyin-ass dummy
Some more Images from Ziltchen..
More Images..
FU-FU-FUU!!!
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Snowden is good for uncovering primary texts and artworks. He was not at all trained in physical anthropology and made up his own definition for assigning negroes and negroids as suited himself.
His ideas on "racially mixed segments" pertaining to people not labeled Aethiopian is merely his own opinion not supported by the primary texts either in whole or in part and that's why he says "perhaps" which also indicates perhaps not.
Snowden was a proponent of the full blown "true negro" concept and its accompanying "Hamitic hypothesis" without the corellate "true blanco" and "Aryan race" which if you have the one you must have the other or else you're not playing fair and restricting black to a limited extreme while allowing white a free range of phenotypes.
See Snowden (1970) pp.7-10, 14. esp Table A.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: "they were perhaps describing racially mixed segments"
You made an assumption. Dunce kitten.
Dunce, jari put up the text first, it's Snowden's words, blame jari
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Yes, very true, many of the people Snowden labeled as "Racially Mixed" or "Part Black" were Africans adapted to their enviroment who deviated from the True NEgro image.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Snowden is good for uncovering primary texts and artworks. He was not at all trained in physical anthropology and made up his own definition for assigning negroes and negroids as suited himself.
His ideas on "racially mixed segments" pertaining to people not labeled Aethiopian is merely his own opinion not supported by the primary texts either in whole or in part and that's why he says "perhaps" which also indicates perhaps not.
Snowden was a proponent of the full blown "true negro" concept and its accompanying "Hamitic hypothesis" without the corellate "true blanco" and "Aryan race" which if you have the one you must have the other or else you're not playing fair and restricting black to a limited extreme while allowing white a free range of phenotypes.
See Snowden (1970) pp.7-10, 14. esp Table A.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Correct. Takruri's post was very clear and concise. Let us see the lyinass worm try to wriggle her way out of it. Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehoopti: ^ Correct. Takruri's post was very clear and concise. Let us see the lyinass worm try to wriggle her way out of it.
Djehoopti what did I tell you about about mindless cheerleading type posts that contribute no new information. I have been administering a number of beatdowns lately, beating down people with their own sources. I'm sorry I 've had to stomp so hard. lateste example Jari's Snowden reference which says "the predominantly white Mauri" This is when you start babbling about wriggling and twirl you baton.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LOL Whom am I "cheerleading". I merely point out the wriggling worm you are. You complain that I add no new info, but what is there to add?? Everything has been explained in the last two pages. Don't get mad at me if you don't accept any of it. Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
Excerpt from a description by the first westerner (an African-American) to supposedly reach Timbuktu and live to tell about it:
"The place which was called El Gazie, ( 2 ) was a low sandy beach, having no trees in sight, nor any verdure. There was no appear-ance of mountain or hill ; nor (excepting only the rock on which the ship was wrecked) any thing but sand as far as the eve could reach. The Moors [of Mauritania] were straight haired, but quite black; their dress consisted of little more than a rug or a skin round their waist, their upper parts and from their knees downwards, being wholly naked."--Robert Adams (1810)
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: Excerpt from a description by the first westerner (an African-American) to supposedly reach Timbuktu and live to tell about it:
"The place which was called El Gazie, ( 2 ) was a low sandy beach, having no trees in sight, nor any verdure. There was no appear-ance of mountain or hill ; nor (excepting only the rock on which the ship was wrecked) any thing but sand as far as the eve could reach. The Moors [of Mauritania] were straight haired, but quite black; their dress consisted of little more than a rug or a skin round their waist, their upper parts and from their knees downwards, being wholly naked."--Robert Adams (1810)
^^^ White slaves, African masters: an anthology of American barbary captivity ... By Paul Michel Baepler p215
(^^^ Letter about Robert Adams not by Robert Adams)
Robert Adams was illiterate and relayed his story to a certain Simon Cock. It was published in the London Newspaper in 1816.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: ^lioness, that's not where I got the quotation.
Robert Adams was illiterate and relayed his story to a certain Simon Cock. It was published in the London Newspaper in 1816.
the text I posted is also in the same text, p45 of The Robert Adams narrative, your quote p 31
People forget the Morrish invasion of the Songhai a quest for gold
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
So what? I cited the primary source; you didn't. What is your point?
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: So what? I cited the primary source; you didn't. What is your point?
In the narrative the Moors are said to be straight haired and black, yet at the same time the author distinguishes them from Negroids. This shows that the word "black" is used in a differnt way then what the average American (an example) would intend it to mean.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
"Moorish Invasion" of Songhai...for gold??
According to whom??
BTW, Timbuktu was founded by Moors, the Tuareg..
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: ^lioness, that's not where I got the quotation.
Robert Adams was illiterate and relayed his story to a certain Simon Cock. It was published in the London Newspaper in 1816.
the text I posted is also in the same text, p45 of The Robert Adams narrative, your quote p 31
People forget the Morrish invasion of the Songhai a quest for gold
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: So what? I cited the primary source; you didn't. What is your point?
In the narrative the Moors are said to be straight haired and black, yet at the same time the author distinguishes them from Negroids. This shows that the word "black" is used in a differnt way then what the average American (an example) would intend it to mean.
No where in the narrative does Adams use the word "Negroid". Also, any criteria Adams (himself a "Mulatto") uses to distinguish "Black-skinned" moor from "Negro" is immaterial to the fact that they are described as "Black". His early 19th century race conceptions (or Cock's) were not considered when I initially posted that quote. I was providing raw descriptive material for individual analyses, period.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
^^^ BTW, Adams claims that he caused a sensation among the Moors because they had never seen a "White" person before. Yet Adams was a Mulatto and according to his scribe was quite Dark Himself.
Off topic, I just got "Africans and Native Americans" by Jack D Forbes(RIP) off Amazon today. Filled with alot of good in depth info. Forbes went to work on this book..
will def. share some useful info with the forum..
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] ^^^ BTW, Adams claims that he caused a sensation among the Moors because they had never seen a "White" person before. Yet Adams was a Mulatto and according to his scribe was quite Dark Himself.
Excellent observation.
quote:Off topic, I just got "Africans and Native Americans" by Jack D Forbes(RIP) off Amazon today. Filled with alot of good in depth info. Forbes went to work on this book..
will def. share some useful info with the forum..
Didn't even know about this book before. Looking forward to it (looks interesting).
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
^^^ Yeah, but Honestly from reading the first few pages of Africans and NAtive Americans Lioness is on to something, but Im sure she will be equally shocked because according to forbes(and he back his claims up) The Term Negro was applied to "Black Africans, Indians of India, Native Americans, Japanese and Slaves of any color"
Im gonna have to read more though...
To Lioness
Where is your proof that
1) the Moroccans invaded Songhai for Gold.
2)The Invasion of Songhai is the reason that Moors were in Timbuctu when Adams arrived..
3) Explain the relationship between the Mehgreb and Sudan..
Thanks
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] ^^^ Yeah, but Honestly from reading the first few pages of Africans and Native Americans Lioness is on to something, but Im sure she will be equally shocked because according to forbes(and he back his claims up) The Term Negro was applied to "Black Africans, Indians of India, Native Americans, Japanese and Slaves of any color"
yes, the quote about Moors being "quite black" does not mean that they were of African descent or not of African descent in the context it was used it meant dark skin relative to Europeans.
Im gonna have to read more though...
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
To Lioness
Where is your proof that
1) the Moroccans invaded Songhai for Gold.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
2)The Invasion of Songhai is the reason that Moors were in Timbuctu when Adams arrived..
my remark was a generalized statement about what the Moors did to the Songhai
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
3) Explain the relationship between the Mehgreb and Sudan..
I've never heard of the Mehgreb, just the Mahgreb
UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA - AFRICAN STUDIES CENTER The Invasion of Morocco in1591 and the Saadian Dynasty [J. Michel]
An Examination of The Role of Europe in the Morocco Invasion of 1591 and the Rise to Power of the Saadian Dynasty
Jonathan Michel
December 1, 1995 The invasion of Sudan began from Marrakech on October 16, 1590. Al-Mansur, the Shariff of Morocco, ordered his best warriors to invade the Songhai Empire and capture the source of gold. Mulai Ahmad al-Mansur (the victorious) also known as al-Dhahabi (the golden one) was the ruler of Morocco from 1578 -1603. Under the command of Pasha Judar the troops marched south toward the desert. After a long and dangerous journey across th e Sahara they arrived in the Empire of Songhai. There the soldiers would enter in a series of battles adventures and emerge victorious. The well equipped Moroccan army captured many of the Empire's principal cities and forced the the Songhai leader to sur render. The source of gold remained outside their reach. The location of the mines were a secret known only to one tribe which lived along the southern Niger River and guarded by the silent trade.
You may be aware of the Book "The Golden Trade of the Moors"
Another interesting book:
On Trans-Saharan Trails: Islamic Law, Trade Networks, and Cross-Cultural Exchange in Nineteenth-Century Western Africa Ghislaine Lydon
.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:I will have to do more research, I had read that in part of a Runoko Rashidi book.
Cool, Im still researching as well.
quote:my remark was a generalized statement about what the Moors did to the Songhai
So are you claiming that there were no "Moors" In Songhai or Timbuctu or that Moors did not fight for the Songhai??
quote:I've never heard of the Mehgreb, just the Mahgreb
Mehgreb/Mahgreb comes from the Semetic word "MRGB"
or M-'-r-b in Latin we add Vowels, Hence M"e"or M"a" and Greb for our latinized speach..
although you are right it's usually with an "a" vowel in "Mah"
quote:m-`-r-b <= `-r-b meaning dusk[y], crow, Arab, and is obviously the Semitic root ma`arab whence Maghreb pay attention to the final b. No west without it.
Sources: Richard S. Tomback A comparative Semitic Lexicon of the Phoenician and Punic Languages Missouri, Montana: Scholars Press, 1978
Francis Brown; S R Driver; Charles A Briggs A Hebrew and English lexicon of the Old Testament Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1906
Samuel Prideaux Tregelles Gesenius' Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Pub. Co., 1949 [1857]
Ill make a seperate tread..
I think this deserves a seperate thread...
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
Another interesting book:
On Trans-Saharan Trails: Islamic Law, Trade Networks, and Cross-Cultural Exchange in Nineteenth-Century Western Africa Ghislaine Lydon
I have this book. Funny you cite it as Prof. Lydon's work does much to counter the phony divisions that people such as yourself try to create between Northern and "sub-Saharan" Africans. From the book:
quote:Muslim geographers named the region al-S _ah_ ra¯ ’, Arabic for “the Desert,” also referred to as al-S _ah_ ra¯ ’ al-Kubra¯ (or “the Great Desert”). They viewed it as an intermediate zone beyond which was the Bila¯d al-Suda¯n or “Land of the Blacks.” In an attempt to describe an area they barely understood, these early writers used this expression to discriminate between Africans so as to set apart “Blacks” from “Arabs” and “Berbers” of Muslim North Africa, recently incorporated into the abode of Islam (Da¯ r al-Isla¯m). The limits of an imaginary Bila¯d al-Suda¯n were redefined when a series of North African migrations, which began in earnest in the eleventh century [the Almoravids(?)], displaced many Saharan dwellers forced to migrate toward the southern desert edge. Ironically, some of these groups began identifying themselves as “Whites” (Bı¯d_a¯n) and speaking of a “Land of the Whites” (T_ ra¯b al-Bı¯d_ a¯n) united by the use of a common language, the Arabic-based H_ asa¯ nı¯ya.13 In the fifteenth century, Portuguese maritime explorers, vying for African gold, heralded a new age of imperialism. European explorers, and later colonial rulers, would reinvent Africa on their own terms by also applying a color line to their racial mappings of the continent.
--Page 6
and:
quote:For ages, the Sahara has been portrayed as an ‘empty-quarter’ where only nomads on their spiteful camels dare to tread. Colonial ethnographic templates reinforced perceptions about the Sahara as a ‘natural’ boundary between the North and the rest of Africa, separating ‘White’ and ‘Black’ Africa and, by extension, ‘Arabs’ and ‘Berbers’ from ‘Africans’. Consequently, very few scholars have ventured into the Sahara despite the overwhelming historical evidence pointing to the interactions, interdependencies and shared histories of neighbouring African countries. By transcending the artificial ‘Saharan frontier’, it is easy to see that the Sahara has always been a hybrid space of cross-cultural interactions marked by continuous flows of peoples, ideas and goods. This paper discusses a methodological approach for writing Saharan history which seeks to transcend this artificial divide and is necessarily transnational.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^ Yeah, but Honestly from reading the first few pages of Africans and NAtive Americans Lioness is on to something, but Im sure she will be equally shocked because according to forbes(and he back his claims up) The Term Negro was applied to "Black Africans, Indians of India, Native Americans, Japanese and Slaves of any color"
I read some of the book via google and I don't believe that it is particularly well argued. The way that Forbes uses his sources to make logical leaps is astounding. For instance, he argues that the pre-Inuit Dorset culture may have reached Greenland, based on old European Sagas of contact .Since they are no longer there, he assumes that they must have been ran out by the Norse and that since the Norse were slave traders, they probably took them as slaves and that these were the slaves described later as "Indigo" in Iberian markets. These are huge leaps considering the fact that we haven't even established that the Norse found Inuit there in the first place (that's an argument in and of its self that needs to be explored and substantiated before we proceed to the next step).
Also, the way he brushes aside the evidence of trans-Atlantic crossings from Africa is just plain lazy and equally non-nonsensical. For instance, in response to a claim that the Americans possessed alloyed spears of the type known in Sierra Leone, he cites Alviso da Ca'da's observation that the people of Jolof carried swords and iron (not alloyed) spears and that the inhabitants possessed dugout canoes for fishing, but mentioned no large ships, and because of this, it is unlikely that West Africans (presumably all Africans from Senegal to Nigeria) were crossing oceans around this time. LMAO.. I mean he completely ignored historical evidence showing for instance, that the Mandinka were making alloyed spears and large boats just down river. How he can cite Van Sertima a few pages back and still come to that conclusion is beyond me.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
LOL, its funny how those stuck out to you as well. The part about the Natives of Senegal not having boats it what got me. Van Sertima provided some good evidence that proves Africans were able to make it to the Americas. Ive always been in favor of West Africans doing this BTW rather than Nilotics.
Also we know that Blacks and Tawney and black Berbers were able to reach the Canaries etc.
Then again the book seems to be dedicated to African and American contact after the arrival of European powers rather than an ancient contact which he is obviously unfamiliar with.
He even says he is only providing "tantalyzing data"rather than hard archeology. but yeah the whole boat thing stood out to me as sloppy.
Ill keep you all posted as I read more..
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^ Yeah, but Honestly from reading the first few pages of Africans and NAtive Americans Lioness is on to something, but Im sure she will be equally shocked because according to forbes(and he back his claims up) The Term Negro was applied to "Black Africans, Indians of India, Native Americans, Japanese and Slaves of any color"
I read some of the book via google and I don't believe that it is particularly well argued. The way that Forbes uses his sources to make logical leaps is astounding. For instance, he argues that the pre-Inuit Dorset culture may have reached Greenland, based on old European Sagas of contact .Since they are no longer there, he assumes that they must have been ran out by the Norse and that since the Norse were slave traders, they probably took them as slaves and that these were the slaves described later as "Indigo" in Iberian markets. These are huge leaps considering the fact that we haven't even established that the Norse found Inuit there in the first place (that's an argument in and of its self that needs to be explored and substantiated before we proceed to the next step).
Also, the way he brushes aside the evidence of trans-Atlantic crossings from Africa is just plain lazy and equally non-nonsensical. For instance, in response to a claim that the Americans possessed alloyed spears of the type known in Sierra Leone, he cites Alviso da Ca'da's observation that the people of Jolof carried swords and iron (not alloyed) spears and that the inhabitants possessed dugout canoes for fishing, but mentioned no large ships, and because of this, it is unlikely that West Africans (presumably all Africans from Senegal to Nigeria) were crossing oceans around this time. LMAO.. I mean he completely ignored historical evidence showing for instance, that the Mandinka were making alloyed spears and large boats just down river. How he can cite Van Sertima a few pages back and still come to that conclusion is beyond me.
Posted by claus3600 (Member # 19584) on :
@lioness
'the quote about Moors being "quite black" does not mean that they were of African descent or not of African descent in the context it was used it meant dark skin relative to Europeans.'
Not sure I understand what you're attempting to say here, but surely a reference to a group of people in Africa as being 'quite black', -with 'quite' apparently having an emphatic meaning akin to 'very', or 'particularly'- is to suggest African ancestry? In the same way that a reference to a people in Europe being 'quite white' would suggest very white-skinned indicate European ancestry?
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by claus3600: @lioness
'the quote about Moors being "quite black" does not mean that they were of African descent or not of African descent in the context it was used it meant dark skin relative to Europeans.'
Not sure I understand what you're attempting to say here, but surely a reference to a group of people in Africa as being 'quite black', -with 'quite' apparently having an emphatic meaning akin to 'very', or 'particularly'- is to suggest African ancestry? In the same way that a reference to a people in Europe being 'quite white' would suggest very white-skinned indicate European ancestry?
show me a tribe of people who are straight haired (not bushy) and "quite" black.
.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^ BTW, Adams claims that he caused a sensation among the Moors because they had never seen a "White" person before. Yet Adams was a Mulatto and according to his scribe was quite Dark Himself.
Off topic, I just got "Africans and Native Americans" by Jack D Forbes(RIP) off Amazon today. Filled with alot of good in depth info. Forbes went to work on this book..
will def. share some useful info with the forum..
jari - do you know what page of the text talks about Adams causing a sensation because of his color?
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by claus3600: @lioness
'the quote about Moors being "quite black" does not mean that they were of African descent or not of African descent in the context it was used it meant dark skin relative to Europeans.'
Not sure I understand what you're attempting to say here, but surely a reference to a group of people in Africa as being 'quite black', -with 'quite' apparently having an emphatic meaning akin to 'very', or 'particularly'- is to suggest African ancestry? In the same way that a reference to a people in Europe being 'quite white' would suggest very white-skinned indicate European ancestry?
show me a tribe of people who are straight haired (not bushy) and "quite" black.
.
Some people on this site have called the Woodabe Fulani straight-haired; it apparently doesn't mean the same as modern African Americans would use it.
since you are so concerned about how African Americans use things. Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Snowden is good for uncovering primary texts and artworks. He was not at all trained in physical anthropology and made up his own definition for assigning negroes and negroids as suited himself.
His ideas on "racially mixed segments" pertaining to people not labeled Aethiopian is merely his own opinion not supported by the primary texts either in whole or in part and that's why he says "perhaps" which also indicates perhaps not.
Snowden was a proponent of the full blown "true negro" concept and its accompanying "Hamitic hypothesis" without the corellate "true blanco" and "Aryan race" which if you have the one you must have the other or else you're not playing fair and restricting black to a limited extreme while allowing white a free range of phenotypes.
See Snowden (1970) pp.7-10, 14. esp Table A.
Very well stated.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: I retract the above statment it seems some of the Sanhadja did prohibit marriage with Sudanis but it had nothing to do with race of course.
Riiiiighhht!
Here are the Bidane Maurs.
Unless you have been totally lobotomized you would realize there is no way they could remain this light over the centuries unless they kept to themselves. There has clearly been an aparthied in Mauritania and there is a strong racial element involved. Aparently they felt that light skin was the property of the the true berbers/Sanhaja and they have sought to preserve this.
Here are Black Mauritanians
You can try to squirm all you want and make claims about what was...many years ago, and dispute the meaning of simple words like White and Black etc. Thats all afrocentrics are good for. But pictures don't lie.
Then all Euronuts are good for is distorting facts. Bidane in Africa did not equal whitish in the European sense or so post as you like. We have already shown you how the word Bidane was mainly used in Africa and in fact is still used particularly in Mauritania and southward.
Human Rights Practices: Mauritania, published by the U.S. Department of State. The Report of March 4, 2002 states, “Although culturally homogeneous, the Moors are divided among numerous ethno-linguistic clan groups and are distinguished racially as Beydane and Haratine, or White Moors and Black Moors, although it often is difficult to distinguish between the two groups by skin color.”
That is not something that Afrocentrists made up - google it.
Most so called Bidane are the color of Tuareg and Haratin - not yellowish white people who are a minority and undoubtedly a product of the "white slave trade".
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Dana wrote:
The Tuareg - a Sanhaja or Berber people - use to kill women whose complexion were of her color. Colonial texts tell of how a European woman had the gall to try to ride into their territory and how she had her arm lopped off by sword of a Tuareg who thought she was a ghost.
Yeah that's why the Tuareg of the Fezzan have higher frequencies of European mtDNA H1, more than any other population in the world! Looks like they luved them some white women.
Stop hatin'!
I was not making this up. Don't shoot the messenger. Obviously the Tuareg at that time could care less about what their mtdna said.
And yes, they apparently did "love them some white women" at one time as did all the early Berbers and Arabs, but it obviously wasn't enough to change them into a truly white looking people as it did so many other Moors and Arabs. Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: "In Manilius' order complexions from the most dark to the least dark are - Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania"
So why should I believe there was some drastic change??
east dark are (a)- Aethiopes (b)- India (c)- Aegyptia (d)- Afrorum (d)- Mauretania"
A
B
C
D(Saharan Type)
D(Coastal Type)/(mixture with European Migrants)
You're dismissed...
Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
Jari great pictures of black skin complexion differences between Aethiopian, Indian, Egyptian, and Maurs/Moor.
The Metis/Mulata Maurs woman orange, yellow, amber and silver necklaces are so beautiful.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Jari's post was to show natural variation of complexions among indigenous Africans versus the complexions of Africans with foreign admixture. The differences are obvious. And one cannot assume that an African who has a complexion lighter than dark chocolate is mixed anymore than an African with a pale or beige complexion is pure. Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
^ particularly pp 1 & 4
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Instead of posting the Loeb translation in this thread where it belongs she starts a whole other thread on this same topic. She does so to hide her debunking here which she avoids like the plague.
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