Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it it a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone.
Manilius, Astronomica 4.724, 1st century AD
Marcus Manilius ( 1st century AD) was a Roman poet, astrologer, and author of a poem in five books called Astronomica.
Is it possible that Egyptian climate was more moderate in 1st A.D. ? He described the climate as more similar to Rome's and mentioned the inundation (flooding).
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it it a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone.
Manilius, Astronomica 4.724, 1st century AD
Marcus Manilius ( 1st century AD) was a Roman poet, astrologer, and author of a poem in five books called Astronomica.
Is it possible that Egyptian climate was more moderate in 1st A.D. ? He described the climate as more similar to Rome's and mentioned the inundation (flooding). This remark is also racist toward Ethiopians.
...the poor, sick, and pathetic Euronuts/Stormfronters/etc. trying hopelessly to invent a past which simply does not exist...
Here is the actual quotation from Marcus Manilius , with the accurate translation.
quote: Aethiopes maculent orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes; minus India tostis progenerat mediumque facit moderata tenorem. iam propior tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis
--- translation
"Defile the Ethiopians, they figure the world and with the darkness pouring the nations of men to have little parched India produce a moderate to the tenor of the middle makes (climate).
we now draw near the Egyptian, the Nile, Earth and swimming blacken the bodies of more gently watered the fields thereof (climate)."
infuscat corpora = blacken the bodies of
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Not for not thing Wally!! but this is the first time I have read the translation in this manner, thanx this is even more damaging to Urnutz who like to use said translation to say that the Greco-Romans viewed the Ethiopians differently than they did the Kemitians..thanx again life will never be the same for them with translation around.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
some one get up the entire paragraphs, he talks about other groups of people who are lightskinned and much different then the egyptians, eurocentrics like to miss out the other paragraphs,
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posted
Why this truncated quote? Where are the strophe on Saharans and Maures? Manilius was listing all the blacks/darks of his day. Without the above two his listing is inaccurately distorted.
quote: Aethiopes maculant orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes; minus Indiatostos progenerat; tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis iam propior mediumque facit moderata tenorem. Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore.
Manillius likewise listed those held to be white/light in lines 711-723 preceding lines 724-730 on blacks/darks
quote:Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant. flava per ingentis surgit Germania partus, Gallia vicino minus est infecta rubore, asperior solidos Hispania contrahit artus. Martia Romanis urbis pater induit ora Gradivumque Venus miscens bene temperat artus, perque coloratas subtilisGraecia gentes gymnasium praefert vultu fortisque palaestras, et Syriam produnt torti per tempora crines.
Manilius nowhere claims Egypt and Rome to have the same climate. He's saying that Egypt is closer to Rome than Ethiopia is. Much of its latitude being in between or at medium points in regards to Rome and Ethiopia and thus moderate.
I see no racist intent in the line on Ethiopians because I don't see being dark and the ability to make dark offspring on lighter peoples as insulting.
The given translation is pretty accurate
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: .
Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it it a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone.
Manilius, Astronomica 4.724, 1st century AD
Marcus Manilius ( 1st century AD) was a Roman poet, astrologer, and author of a poem in five books called Astronomica.
Is it possible that Egyptian climate was more moderate in 1st A.D. ? He described the climate as more similar to Rome's and mentioned the inundation (flooding). This remark is also racist toward Ethiopians.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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a translation is an interpretation by a translator. Wallys version below is similar, my remarks bolded:
"Defile the Ethiopians (INSULT TO ETHIOPIANS) they figure the world and with the darkness pouring (THEY ARE DARK) the nations of men to have little parched India (THE INDIANS ARE LESS PARCHED LESS DARK) produce a moderate to the tenor of the middle makes (climate). (THE INDIANS ARE LESS DARK THAN ETHIOPIANS DUE TO A MORE MODERATE CLIMATE) we now draw near the Egyptian, the Nile, Earth and swimming blacken the bodies of more gently watered the fields thereof (climate)." (THE BODIES OF EGYPTIANS ARE DARKENED MORE GENTLY DUE TO THE WATERY CLIMATE OF THE FIELDS)
posted
We must recall too that by the time of the Roman occupation of Egypt there were long extant colonies of Greeks who had settled in Egypt and then came the Romans who established Egypto-Roman dynasties that lasted for centuries.
Thus the lightening process of Lower Egypt had long begun by Manilius's time.
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posted
This is not a translation (grammatically correct) but here are the literal meanings of roots of the words in line 723
code:
Aethiopes AEthiopians maculant spot/mark/stain orbem ring/circle/orbit tenebrisque full of darkness figurant form/shape/figure perfusas drench hominum human gente race
line 724
code:
minus less India India tostos scorched progenerat progeny
lines 725 726
code:
tellusque earth natans inundate Aegyptia Egypt Nilo Nile lenius mild/gentle/easy irriguis watered infuscat darken corpora body campis field/plain iam propior near mediumque center/middle/intervenin space facit produce moderata moderate tenorem
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Manilius nowhere claims Egypt and Rome to have the same climate. He's saying that Egypt is closer to Rome than Ethiopia is. Much of its latitude being in between or at medium points in regards to Rome and Ethiopia and thus moderate.
If this is correct Egyptians and Romans would have a more similar skin pigmentation adaptation than Egyptians would with Ethiopians
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
You are refusing to read Manilius in context. He places the Egyptians complexion between that of the Indians and the Saharans.
Roman complexion is between Spaniards and Greeks.
There is no escaping the plain meaning of the text.
Standing between Egyptians and Romans in increasing lightening of complexion are the dark Saharans and Maures and the light Syrians and Greeks.
In Manilius' order white complexions from the most light to the least light are - Germania - Gallia - Hispania - Romanis - Graecia - Syrium
In Manilius' order black complexions from the most dark to the least dark are - Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
This leaves Afrorum, Mauretania, Syrium, and Graecia complexions interspacning those of Egypt and Rome. That's four intervening complexions. No way for Egypt and Rome being near in complexion, while Egypt has only India between it and Ethiopia.
Therefore by Manilius Egypt is very close to Ethiopia in colour but very far from Rome in "skin pigmentation adaptation" as you put it.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Manilius nowhere claims Egypt and Rome to have the same climate. He's saying that Egypt is closer to Rome than Ethiopia is. Much of its latitude being in between or at medium points in regards to Rome and Ethiopia and thus moderate.
If this is correct Egyptians and Romans would have a more similar skin pigmentation adaptation than Egyptians would with Ethiopians
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
alTakruri I don't read Latin. You seem to have access to translation tools and the whole quote in the larger context. Please show the original text as before and translate as many words in bold print line by line. You seem to have done much of the legwork already it just needs to be shown together. Then we all could see more easily what you are talking about.
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
I can give you the whole quote within context. While I can literally translate most of the words I never took Latin and cannot make a grammar correct translation.
Some time ago I attempted a interlinear literal trnslation but never completed the task. I can only give you the side by side list of a couple of lines posted earlier.
I think Snowden translated the lines on the darks in Image of the Black in Western Art. If so, I will post it later.
MANILIUSASTRONOMICON 4.711-730
Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant. flava per ingentis surgit Germania partus, Gallia vicino minus est infecta rubore, asperior solidos Hispania contrahit artus. Martia Romanis urbis pater induit ora Gradivumque Venus miscens bene temperat artus, perque coloratas subtilisGraecia gentes gymnasium praefert vultu fortisque palaestras, et Syriam produnt torti per tempora crines.
Aethiopes maculant orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes; minus Indiatostos progenerat; tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis iam propior mediumque facit moderata tenorem. Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore.
Line 723 on Ethiopia
code:
Aethiopes AEthiopians maculant spot/mark/stain orbem ring/circle/orbit tenebrisque full of darkness figurant form/shape/figure perfusas drench hominum human gente race
Line 724 on India
code:
minus less India India tostos scorched progenerat progeny
Lines 725,6 on Egypt
code:
tellusque earth natans inundate Aegyptia Egypt Nilo Nile lenius mild/gentle/easy irriguis watered infuscat darken corpora body campis field/plain iam propior near mediumque center/middle/intervening space facit produce moderata moderate tenorem
Not all the descriptions accompanying the ethnies are references to colour. For instance Syrium hair and Afrorum environment are commented on.
Sorry but this is all I can do for now. You should begin to seek out primary documentation and several versions of their translations for yourself if you really want to study up on these topics and be sure of what was actually meant instead of relying on the interpretations of those whose agendas are nowhere near objective. Objectivity is relevant anyway as there is no way any writer or scholar can strip what they write of the colorations of the society they grew up in and by whom they were educated.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: alTakruri I don't read Latin. You seem to have access to translation tools and the whole quote in the larger context. Please show the original text as before and translate as many words in bold print line by line. You seem to have done much of the legwork already it just needs to be shown together. Then we all could see more easily what you are talking about.
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quote:Manilius, a Roman poet, was a shadowy figure; he is sometimes said to have been a freed slave of Syrian origin, but the details of his life are unknown. Astronomicon is the only known work ascribed to Manilius. The text indicates that the author lived in Rome under Emperor Augustus (reigned 27 BCE-14 CE) or Tiberius (14-37 CE). The work is a kind of science poem on the astrology of the zodiac and the constellations, written in an age when astronomy and astrology had not yet been distinguished from one another. Although early manuscripts of this work have been lost, a number of variant texts have survived. The work consists of five books, but the last one is seemingly unfinished.
For those interested in astrology/astronomy the entire latin text work can be found in Google books for free.
<><><>
But to this particular topic, culled and distorted and disseminated by historical revisionists, here again is the accurate poetic exert:
Stained the Ethiopians
they figure the world and with the darkness
pouring the nations of men,
to have little parched India
produces a moderate to the contents of the middle makes.
We now draw near the Egyptian,
the Nile, Earth and swimming
blacken the bodies of
more gently watered fields thereof Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Wally: Astronomer by the Roman poet Manilius Manilius, a Roman poet, was a shadowy figure; he is sometimes said to have been a freed slave of Syrian origin, but the details of his life are unknown. Astronomicon is the only known work ascribed to Manilius. The text indicates that the author lived in Rome under Emperor Augustus (reigned 27 BCE-14 CE) or Tiberius (14-37 CE). The work is a kind of science poem on the astrology of the zodiac and the constellations, written in an age when astronomy and astrology had not yet been distinguished from one another. Although early manuscripts of this work have been lost, a number of variant texts have survived. The work consists of five books, but the last one is seemingly unfinished. For those interested in astrology/astronomy the entire latin text work can be found in Google books for free.
But to this particular topic, culled and distorted and disseminated by historical revisionists, here again is the accurate poetic exert:
_________no revision necessary:
__________________________________________
Stained the Ethiopians
they figure the world and with the darkness
_____________________________________
pouring the nations of men,
to have little parched India
produces a moderate to the contents of the middle makes.
_________________________________________ We now draw near the Egyptian ,
the Nile, Earth and swimming
blacken the bodies of
more gently watered fields thereof
.
no revision necessary it's a progression. First we have the Ethiopians, they are "blackened" the darkest, Then we have the Indians who are moderately "blackened", not literally blacked but in actuality brown. Then we have the Egyptians who are even more gently browned than the Indians.
quote:Originally posted by lamin: We must recall too that by the time of the Roman occupation of Egypt there were long extant colonies of Greeks who had settled in Egypt and then came the Romans who established Egypto-Roman dynasties that lasted for centuries.
Thus the lightening process of Lower Egypt had long begun by Manilius's time.
posted
Lmao @ the posters who actually took this troll bitch seriously! You think when this airhead asks for information she really wants to learn?! lol
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
I am not playing games. There is not much to learn here except is that no one here speaks latin and that they are going word by word with online tools or dictionaries. When you do that you come up with the same meaning in this case. Manilius describes a progression of infuscation from dark to moderate to mild. Lamin gave what he thought may explain it. That was the most useful comment coming out of this. I have to admit the Nefertari and Isis before and after was not serious. I don't relate to them visually they look like Arab girls to me. We could hang out though
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Originally posted by the lioness: I have to admit the Nefertari and Isis before and after was not serious. I don't relate to them visually they look like Arab girls to me. We could hang out though.?????Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Originally posted by the lioness: I have to admit the Nefertari and Isis before and after was not serious. I don't relate to them visually they look like Arab girls to me. We could hang out though.?????
you got a problem with a sista hanging out with an Arab chick?
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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But seriously I have no problem with a European male "hanging out" with Arabs.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it it a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone.
Manilius, Astronomica 4.724, 1st century AD
Marcus Manilius ( 1st century AD) was a Roman poet, astrologer, and author of a poem in five books called Astronomica.
Is it possible that Egyptian climate was more moderate in 1st A.D. ? He described the climate as more similar to Rome's and mentioned the inundation (flooding). This remark is also racist toward Ethiopians.
...the poor, sick, and pathetic Euronuts/Stormfronters/etc. trying hopelessly to invent a past which simply does not exist...
Here is the actual quotation from Marcus Manilius , with the accurate translation.
quote: Aethiopes maculent orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes; minus India tostis progenerat mediumque facit moderata tenorem. iam propior tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis
--- translation
"Defile the Ethiopians, they figure the world and with the darkness pouring the nations of men to have little parched India produce a moderate to the tenor of the middle makes (climate).
we now draw near the Egyptian, the Nile, Earth and swimming blacken the bodies of more gently watered the fields thereof (climate)."
infuscat corpora = blacken the bodies of
Thank you Wally. That is a very interesting translation. I have personally already seen more than one.
It is a shame European people have gone to such extremes to disprove who the Egyptians were even in academia over the years.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Originally posted by the lioness: I have to admit the Nefertari and Isis before and after was not serious. I don't relate to them visually they look like Arab girls to me. We could hang out though.?????
I only see Central Asian there, personally.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: ______AFTER______BEFORE
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Originally posted by the lioness: I have to admit the Nefertari and Isis before and after was not serious. I don't relate to them visually they look like Arab girls to me. We could hang out though.?????
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: ______AFTER______BEFORE
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Originally posted by the lioness: I have to admit the Nefertari and Isis before and after was not serious. I don't relate to them visually they look like Arab girls to me. We could hang out though.?????
I only see Central Asian there, personally.
Name: Yousef Al Turki
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness:
Your thread should have ended after Al Takuri's post. Can't believe that you couldn't grasp it.
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quote:Originally posted by the lyin' arse: The above lists doesn't appear as lists like this in the Astronomica by Manilius. They are remarks he makes within the text. And when he talks about these various skin complections above he does not sort them into two categories "black" and "white".
That is something you did.
lyin' arse fuckuptions 2001.
My lists are compiled from Manilius' textual order. Amazing how it was fine when you wanted to raise an anti-black polemic but is no good once white entered the equation. Dana is right you are snaky.
Manilius composed a hierarchy of the white and black peoples known in his day by descending intensity of pallor or color in lines 711-730 of his Astronomicon as below.
quote:Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant. flava per ingentis surgit Germania partus, Gallia vicino minus est infecta rubore, asperior solidos Hispania contrahit artus. Martia Romanis urbis pater induit ora Gradivumque Venus miscens bene temperat artus, perque coloratas subtilisGraecia gentes gymnasium praefert vultu fortisque palaestras, et Syriam produnt torti per tempora crines.
Aethiopes maculant orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes; minus Indiatostos progenerat; tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis iam propior mediumque facit moderata tenorem. Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore.
Nothing you can do or say will make Manilius' words go away.
Anyone with basic analytical skills will produce the same skeletal list from the reference text. It is impossible to derive any other ordered list than that which I posted.
Manilius' order of white complexions from the most light to the least light - Germania - Gallia - Hispania - Romanis - Graecia - Syrium
Manilius' order black complexions from the most dark to the least dark are
- Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
You yourself based an argument on Mauretanians not being black as Aethiopes because of the way Manilius ordered the blacks.
Now you want to claim he never made that hierarchy. Yes you are a snake. Neither you or Melchior are interested in studying Africa from the Greco-Latin perspective. Both of you are here to uphold tired Eurocentric propositions.
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Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant. flava per ingentis surgit Germania partus, Gallia vicino minus est infecta rubore, asperior solidos Hispania contrahit artus. Martia Romanis urbis pater induit ora Gradivumque Venus miscens bene temperat artus, perque coloratas subtilisGraecia gentes gymnasium praefert vultu fortisque palaestras, et Syriam produnt torti per tempora crines.
Aethiopes maculant orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes; minus Indiatostos progenerat; tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis iam propior mediumque facit moderata tenorem. Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore
In Manilius' order white complexions from the most light to the least light are - Germania - Gallia - Hispania - Romanis - Graecia - Syrium
In Manilius' order black complexions from the most dark to the least dark are - Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
Nothing you can do or say will make Manilius' words go away. Anyone with basic analytical skills will produce the same skeletal list from the reference text. It is impossible to derive any other ordered list than that which I posted.
The above lists don't appear in list form like this in the Astronomica by Manilius. They are remarks he makes within the text. And when he talks about these various skin complections above he does not separate them into two categories "black" and "white". The latin word for black "ater" and the latin word for white "albus" do not appear in the text neither does Manilius make a two part categorical distinction grouping the complections he lists.
That is something you did.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Manilius composed a hierarchy of the white and black peoples
No he didn't
He described the complections of people from different regions. Then you came in and sorted them into racial categories you call "black" and "white" .
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
You yourself based an argument on Mauretanians not being black as Aethiopes because of the way Manilius ordered the blacks.
Now you want to claim he never made that hierarchy. Yes you are a snake. Neither you or Melchior are interested in studying Africa from the Greco-Latin perspective. Both of you are here to uphold tired Eurocentric propositions.
I never said the Mauretanians not were not as black as Aethiope nor denied Manilus discussed skin complections in Astrronomica
I quoted you who said of the people listed below Manilius said that their complexions from the most dark to the least dark are:
- Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretani
you are not interested in studying Africa from the Greco-Latin perspective. You are here to uphold the tired Eurocentric proposition that the world is comprised of the black race and the white race.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: You are here to uphold the tired Eurocentric proposition that the world is comprised of the black race and the white race.
The ancient Greeks and Romans used the same black and white racial typology which is equivilant to Caucasoid and Negroid. In fact they also had an early concept of Mongoloid as ''yellow'' as well:
Lucian, Hermotimus, 31 (150 180 AD):
Tell me, Lycinus: imagine an Ethiopian who had never travelled abroad and so had never seen other men like but who stated firmly in an assembly of the Ethiopians that nowhere in the world were there men who were white or yellow or any other colour than black, would they believe him?
So basically 2000 years ago the ancients were using the same racial typologies. Phenotypes since then have no changed and they reflect racial reality.
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The Scythian-Ethiopian antithesis was employed to show racial contrasting because both these races were the polar opposites.
-- Later Scythian became equivilant with any northern europen e.g. the Saxons and other Germanics.
Seneca the Younger, De Ira (On Anger) 3. 26. 3 (50 AD?): Non est Aethiopis inter suos insignitus color, nec rufus crinis et coactus in nodum apud Germanos uirum dedecet...
The colour of the Ethiopian is not exceptional among his own [people], nor is hair, red and gathered into a knot, unfitting for a man among the Germans.
Eugippius, Thesaurus, 73 (550 AD):
white Germans and very black Ethiopians
BEDE -
Bede, In Samuelem Prophetam, 1. 10 (716 AD):
niger Aethiops et Saxo Candidus
black Ethiopian and white Saxon
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posted
Basically everything alTakruri posted is true (this is one of the only times i agree).
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posted
We know the point you were trying to make Lyingass, but it obviously backfired on you!
Thankyou lyinass for starting this thread to examine the Manilius quote that has so often been misused and distorted by Euronuts like yourself. Takruri and the others have shed much light on this! LOL Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: You are here to uphold the tired Eurocentric proposition that the world is comprised of the black race and the white race.
The ancient Greeks and Romans used the same black and white racial typology which is equivilant to Caucasoid and Negroid. In fact they also had an early concept of Mongoloid as ''yellow'' as well:
Lucian, Hermotimus, 31 (150 180 AD):
Tell me, Lycinus: imagine an Ethiopian who had never travelled abroad and so had never seen other men like but who stated firmly in an assembly of the Ethiopians that nowhere in the world were there men who were white or yellow or any other colour than black, would they believe him?
So basically 2000 years ago the ancients were using the same racial typologies. Phenotypes since then have no changed and they reflect racial reality.
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: Scythian-Ethiopian Antithesis
White-Black Polarization
The Scythian-Ethiopian antithesis was employed to show racial contrasting because both these races were the polar opposites.
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: [QB] Basically everything alTakruri posted is true (this is one of the only times i agree).
None of this applies.
In this part of the thread Manilius was being discussed.
quote:Originally posted by alTurkey:
In Manilius' order black complexions from the most dark to the least dark are
- Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
You are speaking of a " Scythian-Ethiopian Antithesis".
1) above we are talking about a list of 5 regions, you only comment on the top of the list Aethiopes (Ethiopians)
2) This thread is about Manilius and what he said in Astronomica. Look at the original text. He did not apply a reference to the word black when he spoke of the following people:
-India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
^He discusses their skin complexions a range of darkness levels However even though some Greeks and Romans made remarks about "blacks " whites" or "yellows" and Manilus may have somewhere made remarks about them, in the quote we are dealing with he did not apply these terms to the above list of people. AlTurkey decided to interpret that people on the above listed were "blacks".
3) Tell me, Lycinus: imagine an Ethiopian who had never travelled abroad and so had never seen other men like but who stated firmly in an assembly of the Ethiopians that nowhere in the world were there men who were white or yellow or any other colour than black, would they believe him?
^^^ The above refers to the skin color black. The Romans sometimes made disparaging remarks about the physical appearance of Ethiopians however they did not believe it indicated biological inferiority or connect "race" to slavery or discriminate generally on a racial basis. However, this is not the point. The point is that when Manilus was discussing the skin color of
- India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
in the quotation that is the topic of this thread he did not catagorize people of the above list as "black".
IN THE ANCIENT GREEK AND ROMAN WORLD Frank M. Snowden, Howard University
The word Afer (African), however, was generally employed by the Romans to designate populations of the coastal regions of North Africa west of Egypt (e.g. Numidians, Moors), of the Carthaginians and their allies, and of the inhabitants of the Roman province of Africa. "African," as an adjective, is applied only once to a clearly Negroid type--the detailed description of a black woman in a poem, the Moretum, written in dactylic hexameter. The use of Afer as a cognomen may also in another instance, because of additional evidence, have indicated Negroid extraction--in the name of the well-known Latin poet, Publius Terentius Afer. [10] These usages however, are exceptions, and the only Greek or Latin word that commonly referred to an unquestionably Negroid type, it must be emphasized, was Aithiops (Aethiops), Ethiopian, literally a person with a burnt skin, a colored person--a word that described a variety of black or Negroid types characterized by combinations of dark or black skin, wooly or tightly coiled hair, thick lips, and flat or broad noses.
Another frequent misconception in some discussions of the populations of the ancient world is the assumption that words or expressions describing people as dark--or black--skinned were always in classical usage the equivalents of "Ethiopians" i.e. Negroes, or, in twentieth century usage, blacks. Greeks and Romans, well acquainted with their contemporaries, differentiated between the various gradations of color in Mediterranean populations and made it clear that only some of the black- or dark-skinned peoples, those coming from the south of Egypt and the southern fringes of northwest Africa, were Ethiopians, i.e. Negroes. Ethiopians, known as the blackest peoples on earth, became the yardstick by which classical authors measured the color of others. In first century AD, Manilius described Ethiopians as the blackest; Indians, less sunburnt; Egyptians, mildly dark; with Moors the lightest in this color scheme. In other words, to all these peoples--Ethiopians, Indians, Egyptians, and Moors--who were darker than the Greeks and Romans, classical authors applied color-words but it should be emphasized that in general the ancients described only one of these--Ethiopians--as unmistakably Negroid. To summarize this point, there is no justification to equate Egyptians, Moors or any other north Africans, with Ethiopians, even when a color-word is applied to them, unless details are given as to other physical traits such as color, hair, nose, or lips, or unless there is additional evidence to support an equivalence with Ethiopian.
Blacks and Whites in Northwest Africa
The assumption that a majority of the inhabitants of north Africa such as Numidians, Gaetulians, and Moors, were blacks, is also contradicted by the ancient evidence. Classical accounts clearly distinguish between the light-skinned inhabitants of coastal northwest Africa and the darker Ethiopians who lived on the southern fringes of the area. The ancient sources also point to the presence in northwest Africa of mixed black-white types, strongly suggested by names such as Libyoaethiopes (Libyan Ethiopians), Leucoaethiopes (white Ethiopians) and Melanogeatuli (black Gaetulians), a kind of intermediate population, an amalgam of whites and Ethiopians, and by the descriptions of the Garamantes, classified in some classical texts as Ethiopians but distinguished from Ethiopians by others. [15] Classical accounts of the physical features of northwest Africans are amply confirmed by the iconographical evidence. Mosaics, sculpture in the round, and other art objects from northwest Africa depict the inhabitants as predominantly white and portray relatively few blacks, far fewer than in the art of the Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans. Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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The word backfire in general use usually refers to a plan where the opposite of the desired effect happens or the perpetrator is directly affected as opposed to their intended target.
LMAO, Just call her Lyin-ass in the Morning..
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: We know the point you were trying to make Lyingass, but it obviously backfired on you!
Thankyou lyinass for starting this thread to examine the Manilius quote that has so often been misused and distorted by Euronuts like yourself. Takruri and the others have shed much light on this! LOL
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Hey guys, I have been going over the Manilius quote with an Italian friend of mine, and I think I have the most accurate translation yet. It took us a while to figure out the exact grammar since apparently the form of writing was poetic as most writings were in those times.
From the incomplete snippet lyinass and other Euronuts cite:
Aethiopes maculant orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes; minus India tostos progenerat; tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis iam propior mediumque facit moderata tenorem.
Ethiopians stain the circle (globe) with their darkest figures. Immersed with races of men less burnt India has produced. The earth inundated by the Egyptian Nile, are more gently darkened bodies of the watered field. We now draw near the moderate tenor (climate or condition) of the middle...
You must remember that back in ancient times the Greco-Romans perceived the world as a flat circle. As for the very last sentence, the Greco-Romans considered the Mediterranean as being the middle or center of the world in lattitude for them. The Egyptians were still a dark (black) race but one living along the southern edges of it closer to the Romans themselves.
As for the rest the Euronuts love to leave out:
..Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore.
Bright (sunny) African and sandy dust of the earth drieth up the people, and the name of Mauritania, a label his mouth bears has the very color.
This part here is interesting because it claims that the native people themselves used the name Mauritania or Maure.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: You are refusing to read Manilius in context. He places the Egyptians complexion between that of the Indians and the Saharans.
Roman complexion is between Spaniards and Greeks.
There is no escaping the plain meaning of the text.
Standing between Egyptians and Romans in increasing lightening of complexion are the dark Saharans and Maures and the light Syrians and Greeks.
In Manilius' order white complexions from the most light to the least light are - Germania - Gallia - Hispania - Romanis - Graecia - Syrium
In Manilius' order black complexions from the most dark to the least dark are - Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
This leaves Afrorum, Mauretania, Syrium, and Graecia complexions interspacning those of Egypt and Rome. That's four intervening complexions. No way for Egypt and Rome being near in complexion, while Egypt has only India between it and Ethiopia.
Therefore by Manilius Egypt is very close to Ethiopia in colour but very far from Rome in "skin pigmentation adaptation" as you put it.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Manilius nowhere claims Egypt and Rome to have the same climate. He's saying that Egypt is closer to Rome than Ethiopia is. Much of its latitude being in between or at medium points in regards to Rome and Ethiopia and thus moderate.
If this is correct Egyptians and Romans would have a more similar skin pigmentation adaptation than Egyptians would with Ethiopians
There you go weaseling about. Let me help you out.
"Accordingto Arrian (Indica 6.9): The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia: the southern Indians are rather more like Ethiopians as they are black to look on, and their hair is black; only they are not so snub-nosed or woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians physically.
Strabo confirms in Geography 15.1.13, in almost identical wording: As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in color, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Egyptians"
And here is a northern Indian,.. kay?
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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posted
^ Yes, that is YOUR *cherry-picked* image of a MODERN northern Indian. I hope you are smart enough to see the flaws in your argument.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yes, that is YOUR *cherry-picked* image of a MODERN northern Indian. I hope you are smart enough to see the flaws in your argument.
I guess you don't know what Northern Indians look like. You don't care much for truth, do you?
Lolz.
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yes, that is YOUR *cherry-picked* image of a MODERN northern Indian. I hope you are smart enough to see the flaws in your argument.
I guess you don't know what Northern Indians look like. You don't care much for truth, do you?
Lolz.
lol.
List of Scheduled Tribes in India From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia This is a full list of Scheduled Tribes in India, as recognised in India's Constitution; a total of 645 district tribes. The term "Scheduled Tribes" refers to specific indigenous peoples whose status is acknowledged to some formal degree by national legislation. A collective term in use locally to describe most of these peoples is "Upajati" (literally "clans/tribes/groups").
posted
List of Scheduled Tribes in India From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia This is a full list of Scheduled Tribes in India, as recognised in India's Constitution; a total of 645 district tribes. The term "Scheduled Tribes" refers to specific indigenous peoples whose status is acknowledged to some formal degree by national legislation. A collective term in use locally to describe most of these peoples is "Upajati" (literally "clans/tribes/groups").
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: List of Scheduled Tribes in India From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia This is a full list of Scheduled Tribes in India, as recognised in India's Constitution; a total of 645 district tribes. The term "Scheduled Tribes" refers to specific indigenous peoples whose status is acknowledged to some formal degree by national legislation. A collective term in use locally to describe most of these peoples is "Upajati" (literally "clans/tribes/groups").
posted
I like how people will use that quote then go find the lightest Indians they can to prove their point. Not all Northern Indians are light many are Dark but not as Dark as the Dravidians..
You can see many Indians have the Reddish Brown color like many Modern Day Southern Egyptians..
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