Her false image is literally everywhere. It can even be found on stamps and paper money in the Arab world. One would have to believe, from all this exposure, this fame, that she was the quintessential Ancient Egyptian queen. The epitome of the Ancient Egyptian lady of antiquity. Small problem though, she doesn't look Egyptian! She doesn't even look like the other portraits we have of her - the ones we rarely see. In fact she looks like a white woman!
Strange? Well, so is the story behind this famous bust:
A German excavator by the name of Ludwig Borchardt 'discovered' the painted limestone bust in 1912. (The same year Charles Dawson 'discovered' the fake - British missing link - the Piltdown man. This hoax lasted 40 years.) The circumstances of its export to the Berlin museum were the source of controversy at the time. (Some suggested that Borchardt did a little of the painting himself.) It did not go on exhibit until 1924!
One is immediately reminded of the fake Egyptian figure of Tetisheri, Queen mother of the 17th and 18th dynasties, which also did not look Egyptian (IE, Black African) . It too, looked like a white woman. The figure was part of an exhibit held by the British museum in 1990. The exhibit was titled "Fake? The Art Of Deception." The Testisheri hoax lasted 100 years.
Is the Berlin bust also a hoax? Inquiring minds want to know...and inquiring minds are finding evidence...
Is this Nefertiti – or a 100-year-old fake?
quote: Her elegant and chiselled features (IE, looks like a White woman) held proud and high on a swanlike neck, she has been smiling serenely for 3,400 years. At least that has long been the popular and scientific belief that draws half a million tourists to see her in Berlin every year.
But now doubt has been thrown on the authenticity of the painted limestone and plaster bust of the 18th dynasty Egyptian queen Nefertiti by two authors who claim she is a fake. According to a Swiss art historian, the bust is less than 100 years old. Henri Stierlin has said the stunning work that will later this year be the showpiece of the city's reborn Neues Museum was created by an artist commissioned by Ludwig Borchardt, the German archaeologist credited with digging Nefertiti out of the sands of the ancient settlement of Amarna, 90 miles south of Cairo, in 1912.
In his book, Le Buste de Nefertiti – une Imposture de l'Egyptologie? (The Bust of Nefertiti – an Egyptology Fraud?), Stierlin has claimed that the bust was created to test ancient pigments. But after it was admired by a Prussian prince, Johann Georg, who was beguiled by Nefertiti's beauty, Borchardt, said Stierlin, "didn't have the nerve to make his guest look stupid" and pretended it was genuine.
Berlin author and historian Edrogan Ercivan has added his weight to the row with his book Missing Link in Archaeology, published last week, in which he has also called Nefertiti a fake, modelled by an artist on Borchardt's statuesque wife.
Public and political enthusiasm about the find at the time gave the artefact its "own dynamic" and led to Borchardt ensuring it was kept out of the public gaze until 1924, the authors have argued. He kept it in his living room for the next 11 years before handing it over to a Berlin museum, since when it has been one of the city's main tourist attractions.
The statue was famously admired by Adolf Hitler, who referred to it as "a unique masterpiece, an ornament, a true treasure". Recent radiological tests carried out on the statue by Berlin's Charite hospital supposedly proved that the bust is indeed more than 3,000 years old. The tests uncovered a hidden face carved into the statue's limestone core. But Stierlin has argued that while it is possible to carbon date the pigments, which appear to be ancient Egyptian, it is impossible to accurately date the bust because it is made of stone covered in plaster.
Other aspects of the find, which he has claimed support his theory, are the facts that the bust has no left eye, which the ancient Egyptians would have considered a sign of disrespect towards their much-loved queen, and that the first scientific reports on the discovery were not written up for 11 years.
Borchardt's diary entries remain the main written account of the find. He wrote: "Suddenly we had in our hands the most alive Egyptian artwork. You cannot describe it with words. You must see it."
But Dietrich Wildung, the director of Berlin's Egyptian Museum, where Nefertiti is currently housed, has fiercely dismissed the allegations as an attempt to exploit the bust's popularity. "A beautiful woman and a putative scandal," he said. "That always sells." He said the claims could easily be dismissed because of the detailed computer tomography and material analyses that had been carried out on Nefertiti.
In October, the bust is due to be moved back into the Neues Museum, which has been reconstructed from its war-torn remains by British architect David Chipperfield, and where Nefertiti was last on display 70 years ago. She is to hold court over a long gallery in the north cupola, where she will be set on a specially constructed pedestal. Over the decades Germany has rejected repeated requests from Egypt for her return.
...Well, after all the fake facade IS a German creation... Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
March 30, 2009—Researchers may have finally come face-to-face with the real—and wrinkled—Nefertiti, thanks to sophisticated CT scanning technology.
A carefully carved limestone face in the inner core of the Egyptian queen's famous bust (above, right) has emerged in new images, a new study says.
The object, currently on display in Berlin's Altes Museum, was discovered in 1912 during an excavation of the studio of Egyptian royal sculptor Thutmose. The artist had sculpted Nefertiti—wife of Pharaoh Akhenaten—more than 3,300 years ago.
(Related: "Egypt Vows "Scientific War" If Germany Doesn't Loan Nefertiti.")
Scientists first scanned the sculpture in 1992, but advances in the technology have now allowed scans of greater precision, according to Alexander Huppertz, director of the Imaging Science Institute in Berlin.
These new images show that Thutmose placed stucco layers of varying thickness on top of a limestone core.
Nefertiti's "hidden" visage is more realistic, with creases around the corners of her mouth (above, bottom left) and cheeks, less prominent cheekbones, and a bump on her nose.
"CT [scans] impressively demonstrated that the inner core was not just an anonymous mold, but rather a skillfully rendered work of quality art," Huppertz said in an email.
In the final stucco layer (above, top left), Thutmose smoothed over the creases and nose bump, possibly to reflect the "aesthetic ideals of the era," said Huppertz, whose research appears in April in the journal Radiology.
Such glimpses into Thutmose's artistry will help conservators "prevent damage of this extremely precious art object," Huppertz said.
That's because the scans also revealed areas where the stucco is most vulnerable and requires the most careful handling.
—Christine Dell'Amore
Photographs courtesy Radiological Society of North America
____________________________________________
________________________________________
"Elder woman" found in Nefertiti tomb
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
...This fake image is not only ridiculous, it is also pathetic...
Here's the AUTHENTIC Royal Amarna family's portraits...(the last one is a British forensic reproduction) Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
In the larger scheme of things, the Nefertiti bust is somewhat irrelevant. There is tons of evidence surfacing as to Ancient Egypt's true origins. We don't need a bust to tell us what the Egyptians looked like. It's good to see that it's finally being questioned after all these years. But that's as far as it'll go I think. No way Zahi HawASS allows a full debunking. It's ingrained itself too much into the Myth of a non-Black Egypt.
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
In the larger scheme of things, the Nefertiti bust is somewhat irrelevant.
I could not disagree with you more on this point. The fake representation of the African Queen Nefertiti as a White woman is hardly "somewhat irrelevant." Is it as "irrelevant" as the fake Piltdown man of Europe fabricated in order to place Europeans (IE., White folks) at the base of human evolution, when in fact they were merely a last branch?
quote:No way Zahi Hawass allows a full debunking. It's ingrained itself too much into the Myth of a non-Black Egypt.
Zahi Hawass, whose primary task is to see that the lucrative Egyptian tourism trade continues, has absolutely no ultimate control over the truth;
Truth is ultimately revealed by expressing it. Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
I really hope it's not fake since she looks beutiful on that bust (it has the same features as the other busts of her posted above). And that bust doesn't look 'white' at all but Egyptian. She wouldn't stand out among females in the Horn either.
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
It's a great white hoax. A lot of so-called discoveries and findings of Egypt aren't real. I think it came out decades ago that Nefertiti was a spoof.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Wally is just ignoring the CT Scan of Nefertiti that was done in 2009 and published in the monthly journal, Radiology.
Henri Stierlin who had flimsy evidence in speculating that the bust was a fake was debunked by the findings of this scan, that there was an earlier stage portrait of the Queen underneath showing more wrinkles (see lower left picture that is in the above set of six) ) This earlier stage is shown above. If it were fake there would not be this earlier more realistically old looking sculpture underneath that got smoothed over. The pigments used were also tested and determined to be genuine ancient Egyptian. Ancient Egyptian pigments cannot be removed from an antique object then transposed on a forgery to make it look antique.Before this CT scan Stierlin was just trying to make name for himself by questioning the bust's authenticity. Besides it is very similar to other busts of Nefertiti such as:
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
As I posted when the news first broke. One of the few times I agree with the tranny.
If the "base" is authentic AE then why call it a fake. As the Swede pointed out. She would not stand out in many East African cities.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
We must remember that the remains of the KV35 Younger Lady above had its DNA tested and it is now revealed to be a full-blooded sister of Akhenaten NOT Nefertiti!
This explains the strong resemblance to Akhenaten himself.
Thus Nefertiti's remains still have yet to be found.
The Elder Lady was verified to be Tiye, but for Nefertiti all we have are various artwork of her and her daughters.
As for the bust outer facade being fake, that was discussed many times before recently here
A more accurate bust of Nefertiti.
Thus a more accurate reconstruction.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: As I posted when the news first broke. One of the few times I agree with the tranny.
If the "base" is authentic AE then why call it a fake. As the Swede pointed out. She would not stand out in many East African cities.
"The Swede". LOL I guess we may as well call him that as he has such hatred for his home country.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
.
this sculpture is unacceptable
this is portrait of a wicked ass devil bitch:
______________________________________
now if we enlarge the lips a bit:
A Beautiful Black African Queen !!!!!
.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
I don't know why Wally's panties are getting all bunched up over this. Didn't he say the colors were symbolic?
how black people paint themselves I mean there must be thousands of hoaxes then
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the trans-lioness: this sculpture is unacceptable
this is portrait of a wicked ass devil bitch:
now if we enlarge the lips a bit:
A Beautiful Black African Queen !!!!!
Stupid sarcasm aside, it is now proven that the painted bust above is an unauthentic facade with the real bust lying underneath. The reconstruction I posted is based on the real bust in terms of features but its color is still based on the painted fake. Judging by the traces of paint left on other portraits of Nefertiti, her color was much darker.
quote: I don't know why Wally's panties are getting all bunched up over this. Didn't he say the colors were symbolic?
how black people paint themselves I mean there must be thousands of hoaxes then
The only one's panties getting bunched up seems to be yours. The bottom one in particular shows the dark paint fading of Nefertari.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Nefertiti, limestone. Originally from Amarna,east bank of the Nile River
.
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
Authentic representations of Nefertiti (African royalty)
Nefertiti and family relatives
"Whare da White folks at? Whare da White farmers?... Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Authentic representation of Nefertiti (African royalty) just try to ignore it
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wally: Authentic representations of Nefertiti (African royalty)
Nefertiti and family relatives
"Whare da White folks at? Whare da White farmers?... Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
________________________________________________ mulatto dog trying to hide^ no white farmers round these parts, chile Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
the lion(ness),
You most incredibly retarded one, who seems to have a desperate need to have the last word, I was describing Ancient Egyptians; NOT the colonizers of Ancient Egypt, you know idiot, like the Greeks, Romans, Persians, Turks, Circassians, British, Arabs...
I mean, look at this guys arm! The Ancient Egyptians were not a 'hairy nation', but this guy is hairy, and what has happened to his head hair, this hair type has never been portrayed on any portrait of an Ancient Egyptian ever!
But, you're an idiot, who shall not cease posting your idiocies here, so keep on, and I will continue to expose your lunacy
...keep trolling here, please...
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Indeed. Some fools can't get over it.
^ Even if the above limestone figure is authentic, how does that disprove she was black or prove her to be white or mixed. It is limestone figure that is unpainted or rather the paint is completely faded.
By the way the body proportions of the whole statue are definitely tropical/African. So he shot himself in the foot again.
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: ________________________________________________ mulatto dog trying to hide^ no white farmers round these parts, chile
This bitch is baiting people..LMAO sneaky assed bitch..
Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
No doubt more reconstructions will be done..
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
zarahan
Good post.
Nefertiti is one of the most known people of AE.
I don't know what lioness is doing with her ideas of Egypt being mixed, but I can safely say that people are getting the truth and are learning about AE in its proper African family tree.
Peace
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Again, I don't know how many more times I have to repeat this but the KV35 Younger Lady or the one Fletcher believed to be Nefertiti is NOT Nefertiti but a full sister of Akhenaten himself.
This explains why the reconstruction looks like an effeminate version of Akhenaten.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
xyyman, wrote:
quote: She would not stand out in many East African cities.
How is Egypt in "east" Africa?
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: I really hope it's not fake since she looks beutiful on that bust (it has the same features as the other busts of her posted above). And that bust doesn't look 'white' at all but Egyptian. She wouldn't stand out among females in the Horn either.
a person of this phenotype would also have no problem in seamlessly merging with the population, of say Harlem, NY either; she would just be another 'high yella sistah', HOWEVER that's not the point!
Nefertiti was Queen during the height of the Amarna Revolution which was not only a break from the traditional religious practice but also a break in traditional artistic style...
If one understood the Amarna revolution then one would raise a serious eyebrow and would immediately suspect that this artifact had been tampered with.
Egyptian Noble family. All have the same brown complexions, illustrating social equality. This really became a more common rendition during the Amarna revolution of Pharaoh Ikhnaton.
Egyptian Skin Tones - Symbolic & Conventional
Egyptian male (dark) Egyptian brown skin.......masculine, strong Black skin.....................powerful, reborn White skin....................recently deceased
Old Egyptian male (light) Yellow skin....................weak, frail
Egyptian female (light) Yellow skin....................feminine, weak Egyptian brown skin........equal of men (Amarna period) Black skin......................powerful, reborn
Egyptian gods Gold skin......................flesh of the gods Blue skin......................the cosmic waters, the firmament Green skin....................life (i.e., plants)
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Black skin.....Kushite Brown skin.....Egyptian
Color symbolism, black, ancient Egypt:
Black (kem) was a symbol of death and night. Osiris, the king of the afterlife was called "the black one. Anubis, the god of embalming was shown as a black jackal or dog, even though real jackals and dogs are typically brown. Black was also symbolic of resurrection and the fertility of the black soil of the nile. Black pigments were created from carbon compounds such as soot, ground charcoal or burnt animal bones.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Actually the color black is considered sacred in Egyptian culture and represents not merely the 'afterlife' but life itself and regeneration. That is why black was also the color of the important gods like Ausar (Osiris), Auset (Isis), Anupu (Anubis), etc.
quote:Originally posted by argay699: How is Egypt in "east" Africa?
Well gee, it's on the eastern side of the African continent so...
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Black skin.....Kushite Brown skin.....Egyptian
You and your silly generalities.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Black skin.....Kushite Brown skin.....Egyptian
You and your silly generalities.
You think Kushites had these two people with the exact same features on black, one brown?
The women are painted brown to separate them visually from the men. You'll notice on the lower bottom, as usual, the men get the privilege of being at the front of the tribute. Tribute to the brown skinned
I know what your next point will be and I'm ready for it, If you're good enough to pick up on it
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Wasn't the lyingass exposed in another thread, when she was shown Nubians painted in the same brown color as Egyptians?? Why is the dumb liar still repeating her nonsense?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: The women are painted brown to separate them visually from the men.
jesus christ... Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: The women are painted brown to separate them visually from the men.
jesus christ...
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
lyingass,
Your troll methodology is to always make the last comment on a thread, and which as in this instance, is totally idiotic nonsense and/or distortion. You mostly parrot the standard Western misinterpretation of African history...
What I was discussing was the use of skin color as it applied to the Ancient Egyptian peoples by the Ancient Egyptians themselves...nothing else.
According to the Ancient Egyptians:
a) A white skin meant someone who has just died
b) A black skin meant rebirth/resurrection or a very powerful royal.
(notice the jet-black skinned images of the king Tutankhamen found in his tomb - symbolic of the king's resurrection. Whereas in his life portraits his skin is portrayed as Egyptian brown, you know idealized/compromised as somewhere between Wesley Snipes and Terrence Howard...)
<><><>
The reality of the Mdu Ntr:
Kme = the blackness of night
Kake = night, darkness
Kame(t) Niut = "Egypt" or more accurately "Black nation." Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wally: lyingass,
Your troll methodology is to always make the last comment on a thread, and which as in this instance, is totally idiotic nonsense and/or distortion. You mostly parrot the standard Western misinterpretation of African history...
What I was discussing was the use of skin color as it applied to the Ancient Egyptian peoples by the Ancient Egyptians themselves...nothing else.
According to the Ancient Egyptians:
a) A white skin meant someone who has just died
b) A black skin meant rebirth/resurrection or a very powerful royal.
(notice the jet-black skinned images of the king Tutankhamen found in his tomb - symbolic of the king's resurrection. Whereas in his life portraits his skin is portrayed as Egyptian brown, you know idealized/compromised as somewhere between Wesley Snipes and Terrence Howard...)
<><><>
The reality of the Mdu Ntr:
Kme = the blackness of night
Kake = night, darkness
Kame(t) Niut = "Egypt" or more accurately "Black nation."
actually "Egyptian brown" tends to be ruddy
man of closer proximity to Egypt than West Africa
also your lack of knowledge in regard to the fact that black to the Egyptians represents death night and the underworld as much as it does fertility ,rebirth and the Nile soil is remarkable. Perhaps you omit this intentionally because you have been weened on the negative connotations death has in Western culture
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Djehuti wrote: ---------------------------------- Well gee, it's on the eastern side of the African continent so... ----------------------------------
Since you say that, then are Algeria, Morocco, Mauritania, Mali, Tunisia, and Niger in "west" Africa?
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: (irrelevant nonsense...)
This illiterate (of Mdu Ntr) idiot trolling for the idiot ideologues of Stormfront, continues to expose itself by posting nonsense and pointless visuals in a vain attempt to convince or confuse by trying to make "kmt" to be a synonym for death "Moute" and the Underworld "Duat" - the idiot doesn't have a clue but his main purpose is to deny the obvious, which is:
VISUAL CONCORDANCE OF MDU NTR GLYPHS
NOTE HOW KAMMAU OR "BLACKS" IS CAMOUFLAGED AS "EGYPTIANS"
NOTE: KAMTI OR "BLACK IMAGE" OR "SACRED IMAGE" IS 'REDUCED' TO MERELY "IMAGE"
NOTE HERE HOW "KAMI (KOUI)" OR "BLACK COW" BECOMES 'CREATIVE' WHEN "KAMI (SHOIT)" OR "BLACK BOOK(S)" 'MAGICALLY' BECOMES - "BOOKS OF THE BLACK LAND"; ENTIRELY MADE UP IN ORDER TO SUPPORT THE CATECHISM...
KAMI (SHOIT) MEANS "BLACK LITERATURE", PLAIN AND SIMPLE!
---
EXAMINING THE "ARTICLE" IN ANCIENT EGYPTIAN:
PA, PE, PI = "THE" (MASCULINE SINGULAR)
TA, TE, TI = "THE" (FEMININE SINGULAR)
NA, NE, NI = "THE" (NON-GENDER SPECIFIC PLURAL)
---
"NI KMOMOU" IS AS PRECISE A SELF-DESCRIPTION BY THE ANCIENT EGYPTIANS OF THEMSELVES AS ONE COULD GET!
IT REALLY DOESN'T GET ANY BETTER OR MORE ACCURATE THAN THIS ANCIENT EGYPTIAN EXPRESSION, PROVIDED TO US VIA E.A.W. BUDGE... Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
The women are painted brown to separate them visually from the men.
jesus christ...
You do realize that this is not an actual "Jesus", right?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: The women are painted brown to separate them visually from the men.
jesus christ...
What happened to "is black"??? Why the edit? You dont see it as black anymore? Now its "mixed"? LOL You mischievous troll. LOLOLOL
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: The women are painted brown to separate them visually from the men.
jesus christ...
What happened to "is black"??? Why the edit? You dont see it as black anymore? Now its "mixed"? LOL You mischievous troll. LOLOLOL
LOL, Typical Spinzelli..Just call her Lyin'ass...I seriously think Her and Gigantic are AMR1 and Sammy under aliases.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyingass: actually "Egyptian brown" tends to be ruddy
man of closer proximity to Egypt than West Africa
Actually, the Egyptian brown is MAHOGANY or chocolate red and NOT "ruddy".
Any moron with eyes can see that the above pictures do not show "ruddy".
And your comment about "West Africa" is a strawman because Egypt is still in Africa part of East Africa.
Beja of Egypt
Arabs of Sinai
Both of the photos above depict peoples far from West Africa.
Egyptian man of rural Giza
GET A CLUE!
quote:also your lack of knowledge in regard to the fact that black to the Egyptians represents death night and the underworld as much as it does fertility ,rebirth and the Nile soil is remarkable. Perhaps you omit this intentionally because you have been weened on the negative connotations death has in Western culture
On the contrary it is YOU who has been warped by the negative connotations of death in the Western world. Death and ALL things negative are associated with the color black! This is in contrary to Egyptian and other African cultures where black is associated with the positive. Black in Africa does NOT mean death but LIFE and the NEW LIFE after death, moron!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by argyle104: Since you say that, then are Algeria, Morocco, Mauritania, Mali, Tunisia, and Niger in "west" Africa?
Of course! I or nobody else said other wise. The current of divisions of Africa where 'North Africa' is separate from East and West Africa is obviously subjective. Egypt is on the eastern coast of the continent the same way Morocco is in the western coast of the continent. It is Western racist dialectics that tries to separate the 'north' into its own separate entity.
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
We must learn to read!
The Black "Land" nonsense:
Catechism: "The Egyptians called their country Kemet or Black after the color of the soil."
Western Egyptology contrived this deception from Herodotus, “Egypt is a land of black soil…We know that Libya is a redder earth.” (Herodotus, The History, book 2:12); conveniently ignoring the fact that he also mentioned that the Egyptian people were black as well. So, to anyone not familiar with the Ancient Egyptian language, this "Kemet = black soil" may seem plausible. It is not. Here's what the Ancient Egyptian language has to say (Ref: EHD, page 787b.):
Note: words inside brackets are the determinatives or word classifiers along with their English meanings.
Kem, kame, kmi, kmem, kmom = to be black
Kememu = Black people (Ancient Egyptians) in both Ancient and modern Egyptian (Kmemou).
Kem [khet][wood] = extremely black, jet-black
Kemet = any black thing. Note: "t" is silent - pronounced Kemé
Kemet [nu][community, settlement, nation] = Black nation = Ancient Egypt.
Kemet [Romé][people] = Black people. Ancient Egyptians.
Kemit [Shoit][books] = Black books, Ancient Egyptian literature.
Kem wer [miri][large body of water] = The Great Black sea (The Red sea). This sea is neither black nor red, this is in reference to which nation, Black or Red, at a particular time, controlled this body of water.
Kemi fer = Black double house; seat of government. Note: by reference to Wolof again, we know that to make a plural of per or house, the "p" becomes an "f" or fer. Thus fero=great houses (double), it is not pero as Budge writes.
In Ancient Egyptian, the ordinary adjective always follows the noun it modifies, whereas a sanctified adjective usually comes before its noun. The sanctified adjectives are:
Kem -- Black Suten - Royal Nter --- Holy, Sacred
Examples:
Kem ti = Black image, sacred image : ti oubash = white image
Kem ho = Black face/title of a god : ho oubash = white face
Kem ta = Black land, holy land : Ta deshret = Red land (also; Ta Sett)
This rule does not apply when Black is used as a noun-adjective of nationality:
Hompt Kemet = copper of Black; Egyptian copper : Hompt Sett = copper of the Red nations; Asiatic copper
Ro in Kemet (page 416a) = speech of Black; mute ro n Kemet = word of the mouth of Black; the Egyptian language
Kemet Deshret = Black and Red; good and evil; fertile and barren, etc.; Duality
Deshretu (page 554a,b) = red ones, red devils. Used also to refer to the Namu and Tamhu; not a complimentary label.
African Origins:
The following Ancient Egyptian words acknowledge the origins of Pharaonic Egyptian civilization;
Khentu Hon Nefer (page 554a) = founders of the Excellent Order. Budge: "peoples and tribes of Nubia and the Egyptian Sudan." For "Hon" see page 586b.
Ta Khent (page 1051b/page 554b) = land of the beginning.
Eau (page 952b/page 17b) = the old country
<><><>
The Stormfront troll, totally incapable of challenging this delineation of the Mdu Ntr, will certainly segue into more irrelevant visuals or distractions; and certainly will try to ignore "words from the mouth of 'Ancient Egypt'." Trust me... Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Black skin.....Kushite Brown skin.....Egyptian
Color symbolism, black, ancient Egypt:
Black (kem) was a symbol of death and night. Osiris, the king of the afterlife was called "the black one. Anubis, the god of embalming was shown as a black jackal or dog, even though real jackals and dogs are typically brown. Black was also symbolic of resurrection and the fertility of the black soil of the nile. Black pigments were created from carbon compounds such as soot, ground charcoal or burnt animal bones.
It's funny how the afterlife beliefs of the Egyptians which are so extensive, what happens after a person dies, and the color black which is symbolic of the underworld would get covered up in a basic discussion of color symbolism in Egyptian art except by me. We see this reflected in Osiris, who was referred to as "the black one" because he was king of the afterlife, and also with reference to the god of embalming, Anubis, who was portrayed as a black jackal or dog.
For some reason people don't recognize this
The hilarious thing is that Wally tries to flip it in a racist manner, black only means rebirth and white only means (flip) death
therefore we are supposed to applaud the subliminal whites are all about death and blacks are all about life, black now having nothing to do with death-a lie
meanwhile, the Egyptians weren't racist
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wally:
The Stormfront troll, totally incapable of challenging this delineation of the Mdu Ntr, will certainly segue into more irrelevant visuals or distractions; and certainly will try to ignore "words from the mouth of 'Ancient Egypt'." Trust me...
See, I told you so...not a single example from the Mdu Ntr...and much in the manner of Hammer, he/she wants to pretend that its a debate between me instead of what is written by the Kememou themselves...
The idiot doesn't even seem to know that all the BENEVOLENT gods of Kemet were called Black; i.e., Kem Amon, Kem Isi, Kem Osiri, Kem Hor...
We also have: Kem = "Black behavior" = to behave in a seemly manner
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-- Poor, bothersome little idiot...
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Of course Wally, you don't give your numerous dictionary citation of "white".
You talk about the colors being symbolic and at the same time, instead of focusing on all the colors used by Egyptians you focus on black and white in order that people might connect in their mind modern racial definitions of black and white. These definitions not even corresponding to actual skin color which is in reality brown to light pinkish beige.
It's a transparent attempt to try to turn Egyptians into racists. Of course nobody says anything because they get to be in the "I'm better than you" camp.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Of course Lyingass totally ignored my post, but that's okay. We know she has a tendency to ignore anything that debunks her outright. Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Of course Wally, you don't give your numerous dictionary citation of "white".
You talk about the colors being symbolic and at the same time, instead of focusing on all the colors used by Egyptians you focus on black and white in order that people might connect in their mind modern racial definitions of black and white. These definitions not even corresponding to actual skin color which is in reality brown to light pinkish beige.
It's a transparent attempt to try to turn Egyptians into racists. Of course nobody says anything because they get to be in the "I'm better than you" camp.
(The idiot insists on continuing his argument with himself....)
The idea of "white people" which constituted a large group of peoples in contrast to "colored people" originated in the 17th century AD in Europe and America...
However, in the ancient "colored peoples" world, China and Africa, "white people" were referred to as "red people", and remains the custom in Africa today.
Thus in the Mdu Ntr, the word Oubash or White was never applied to a group of people, instead the word was Tesheru, with the 'T' pronounced like the letter 'D', i.e.:
Da, like in, "Da woman"
and the word certainly contained some negative connotations...
Desher, or Derosh = to be red in color, russet, reddish, carroty, ruddy... Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
I have heard some folks claiming that the Kemeu would not called themselves Black-KM because that would suggest they harbored some type of racist or prejudice based on color against others or if they were surrounded by blacks then it wouldn't make much sense to self identify as such. But then we have this http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=bag&action=display&thread=545 Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wally, 05 September, 2009 02:03 PM:
quote:Originally posted by Finesse: Hello im new here and I have a question. What is the reason as to why the ancient egyptians call there nation black/Kemet? I sorry but this still confuses me. were they reffering to the land or the people? and if they were talking about themselves still why? wwhen there are other nations who were black. why differentiate themselves like that
Why should a common universal practice be confusing? This is a universal characteristic of human cultures - continuing to this day -Ethnic Exclusivity!:
a) The Ancient Egyptians also referred to themselves as 'Rome.t' which means 'the Men'/ 'the People' - they were aware that there were other nations of men/people on earth...
b) The 'Eskimo' consist of Inuit, Inupiat, Yupik, and Alutiit, each of which is a regional variant meaning “the people” or “the real people.”
c) The Oromo of Ethiopia; Oromo is derived from 'orma' - person to 'oromo' - people; hence 'the People'
d) Britain from a Celtic word, Pritani, "painted people/men"; and of course, the Brits weren't the only ones in the world who used body paint and tattoos...
e) In Swazi we have this expression "Iliso Lesizwe Esimnyama" or "Eye of the Black Nation"; Swaziland "-the Black Nation", floating in a sea of Black nations--
...still confused?
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
No not confused just pointing out the the confusion in others..
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by imhotep06:
km “twinkling” – definitely has no association with “black.” I6-G17-Y1 km “credit, profit” – I6-Y1 kmyt “herd of cattle” – I6-J15-M17-M17-E1-Z2 kmt “large granite, jar, pot” – I6-X1-W24-Z1
There is no such thing as "black credit" or "black twinkling." Cattle can include goats, cows and sheep. Are you going to argue that ALL of the cows, goats and sheep were black?
This reasoning has lead to many false conclusions and its root is in the method of intra-Egyptian etymolizing instead of looking for the term in related languages to bring clarity. Thus, we have linguistic fundamentalism and people stuck on the notion that every k-m root with the I6 glyph somehow magically means "black."
The earliest attestations of the word have the N23 irrigated land determinative. This is clearly a sign of cultivation. What people don't realize is that they have the same word written in a different form, but given a different definition.
Ancient Egyptian pkh3 = farmland
The /3/ was and /l/. The k-m root in Egyptian often corresponds to ciLuba k-l/k-n root:
[note: The CV phonetics might conceal a fugitive following nasal or resonant. Westermann (1927) frequently reconstructs such resonants at the end of his Proto-Western Sudanic roots (ka, kal "crab", ka, kan "side")]
...From root kale/kala/kola "grow, mature, ripen, rich/productive soil." This same root k-l is the same for "power, force" which relates to a "generative" energy, thus an association with "rich/productive soil."
ku Bu-kola (b-k-l) (A) force (B) expressly (to express...in other words, to manifest)
ci-kole-lu = how to educate. Remember the word educate means "to draw out" just like you would "draw out the fruit, plants" (the productivity) from the soil.
Kole-la (A) act harshly against somebody, overwhelm, molest, the short shrift (B) êtretrop heavy to bear (C) be too difficult to (D) be borne by somebody (E) force, compel
Kole-sha (A) welcome, wish to do well (B) increase (C) to harden, strengthen (D) strengthen (E) to support somebody, forces
There is no logical reason to render kmt as "black land." It is clear as day: productive, rich, fertile land which when you examine related black African languages also doubles to mean "community, city, village or country." This is in contrast to the dshr.t which is "unproductive, sterile, land." At some point one has to critically examine the glyphs and language for one's self and not take the entries in dictionaries at face value.
Just because it's in a dictionary doesn't make it correct. Thus why we have methods to verify if the obscure word means what the dictionary claims. This prevents us from making errors based on monoliguistic etymolizing (searching for meaning exclusively in the language under examination).
The root k-m/k-m-t is "polysemic" and cannot be reduced to a sole meaning of "black." The Egyptians were meticulous in their communication; giving us clear clues as to what they meant. The niw.t and N23 determinatives in no way can be reduced to color.
By your logic the following would mean "hidden nurse" because there is a root m-n that means "hidden."
mna.t = nurse, guardian
Or this word would mean "angry alligator person" adw = agressor
Or this word would mean "flamingo blood" dsr = blood
As we can see, the root doesn't necessarily describe the determinative. The determinative is there to describe a characteristic of the root word. Thus why an alligator is used to help you envision "aggressive" behavior. And the flamingo (because of its red color) to help describe the character of blood. The same convention is used with the N23 and Niw.t determinatives. The former is to let you know it is irrigated, farm, productive land (the kind that allows for urbanization). The niw.t is there to inform you it is a populace. The people are the citizens of the nation, town, country. It doesn't get any plainer
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: No not confused just pointing out the the confusion in others..
I wasn't addressing the post to you, rather to your point; you know, trying to embellish or expand upon what you were saying... Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Btw Wally some great linguistic discussions taking place over at E.S.R
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Btw Wally some great linguistic discussions taking place over at E.S.R
I go there occassionally; it's a more disciplined site than this one, and also where the Lyin_ass, has recently culled his latest response quoting imhotep06 (Asar Imhotep):
quote:By your logic the following would mean "hidden nurse" because there is a root m-n that means "hidden."
mna.t = nurse, guardian
Or this word would mean "angry alligator person" adw = agressor
Or this word would mean "flamingo blood" dsr = blood
This post is aimed, I suspect judging by the flow of the thread, at alTakruri; and I find it to be condescending, offensive, and completely wrong. No student of Mdu Ntr (like alTakruri, myself...) would have any problem in reading and understanding that:
a) moone = nurse
b) adu = a man of wrath, to be angry, to rage at
c) deresh(dshr) = blood (in Wolof the word is deret)
"hidden nurse"!?! - please, give us a break!
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wally:
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Btw Wally some great linguistic discussions taking place over at E.S.R
I go there occassionally; it's a more disciplined site than this one, and also where the Lyin_ass, has recently culled his latest response quoting imhotep06 (Asar Imhotep):
quote:By your logic the following would mean "hidden nurse" because there is a root m-n that means "hidden."
mna.t = nurse, guardian
Or this word would mean "angry alligator person" adw = agressor
Or this word would mean "flamingo blood" dsr = blood
This post is aimed, I suspect judging by the flow of the thread, at alTakruri; and I find it to be condescending, offensive, and completely wrong. No student of Mdu Ntr (like alTakruri, myself...) would have any problem in reading and understanding that:
a) moone = nurse
b) adu = a man of wrath, to be angry, to rage at
c) deresh(dshr) = blood (in Wolof the word is deret)
"hidden nurse"!?! - please, give us a break!
that wasn't the point. The point was your narrow dictionary only methodology in interpreting km would produce ridiculous results if the same narrow methodology of interpretation was applied to things such as the random examples above
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: The point was your narrow dictionary only methodology in interpreting km would produce ridiculous results if the same narrow methodology of interpretation was applied to things such as the random examples above
The dictionary approach is not narrow, it is the only way you can legitimately know Egyptian.
The Egyptian language was deciphered using Coptic. As a result, your reading of Egyptian must remain within the Context of Coptic.
I have made it clear that Egyptian was probably a lingua franca. Since it was made up using elements from a number of related African languages it would be natural to find similarities between Egyptian and other Black African languages.
. .
But these similarities can not supercede Egyptian meanings based on Coptic. They can help further understanding the meaning of terms but they can not erase the actual meaning of words attested in the Egyptian language recorded in an Egyptian language (i.e, Coptic or ancient Egyptian).
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Clyde makes a good point. When I said "dictionary only" I meant hieroglyphic dictionary only as imhotep06 was saying and that we should look at the context of given word in other related languages, in actuality using other dictionaries and language references. Also recognizing that Budge is not the be all and end all at determining given meaning and accuracy of the Ptolemy V's issued Rosetta translation also which was incomplete due to damage.There exists no one definitive English translation of because of the minor differences between the three original texts and because modern understanding of the ancient languages continues to develop.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: I have heard some folks claiming that the Kemeu would not called themselves Black-KM because that would suggest they harbored some type of racist or prejudice based on color against others or if they were surrounded by blacks then it wouldn't make much sense to self identify as such. But then we have this http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=bag&action=display&thread=545
Of course this is false, because 'black' is considered sacred in many African traditions including Egypt. There was no "racial" prejudice or color issue in ancient Egypt and to say so is an absurd lie to say the least.
But then what does any of this have to do with Nefertiti??
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The dictionary approach is not narrow, it is the only way you can legitimately know Egyptian. The Egyptian language was deciphered using Coptic. As a result, your reading of Egyptian must remain within the Context of Coptic.
I couldn't agree more, as a matter of fact I have uploaded a Coptic dictionary for interested parties who might wish to download, it is at:
Here's some relevant to the topic exerts from the Coptic dictionary:
kame....black kemi.....black khme....Egypt, Black kme......darkness kmme....black kmom....be, become black
...
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
The usage of "km" as a non-sanctified adjective is illustrated in a test question posed in
Middle Egyptian: An Introduction to the Language and Culture of Hieroglyphs, James P. Allen
...and the answer
let us first convert this exercise answer into something more intelligible
> oho.n horu hr dgt r esho pafe km = "Then Horus was looking at that black pig."
esho pafe km = "pig that black"
This passage refers to the black pig of Set that was speared by Horus...
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Djehuti
quote:Of course this is false, because 'black' is considered sacred in many African traditions including Egypt. There was no "racial" prejudice or color issue in ancient Egypt and to say so is an absurd lie to say the least. But then what does any of this have to do with Nefertiti??
The conversation was a carry over from page I between Lioness and Wally.
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