posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
the mdr ntr speaks for itself

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Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
the mdr ntr speaks for itself

---

How appropriate that you, alTakruri, and Wally have taken to the convention of presuming to use Egyptian spellings.

---

Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
Lioness, you do realize there are other texts that suggest the Senurset line had its matrilineal origins within Ta-seti(nubia). The late Frank Joseph Yurco took the stance that the Senurset lineage originated with the union of a female from Ta-seti and an upper Egyptian male.

I am also disturbed by your attempt to resurect the know debunked ''dynastic race'' theory popularized by the late late Egyptologist W.B. Emery. Archaeological evidence found within Upper Egypt have debunked the notion of foreigners forming the rulership in early Egypt.




When reading second hand translations like Budge,Breasted et al you need to take in context the time period for their translations. Many of the Egyptologists reflected a certain imperilistic and racial climate at this time period and this is definately reflected in their works. So I ask you to preceed with caution and an objective mind. Otherwise, you are being just as bias as the people you criticize.

---

Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
Your answers are most likely canned answers you get from other message boards instead of your original thought. Don't know for sure but it seems this way. [/QB]

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Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:
...
d) Some enterprising person here will probably, if its available, post the original document
written in Mdu Ntr...

---

I guess I'm going to have to be the enterprising chap; and I win my bet...

I found a fragment of the Stelae of Senusret III that contains reference to these "Blacks"


(You can view the entire text here:)
http://wikisource.org/wiki/Stelae_from_Senusret_III

Now, pay close attention





Do you see the shill? The Sudani were the ONLY Negroes (Blacks), ergo the Ancient Egyptians were
not, neither were the peoples of the fertile Saharan crescent, nor the peoples of Central
Africa, nor those of West Africa; it's a load of White racialist crap which, if you buy into it, then you're a
"Gotcha" sucker...

Senusret (more accurately, Wosertsen) in order to be a legitimate king of Ancient Egypt
would have to have had a maternal descent from a sudanese royal Queen-Mother (Ta Seti)...

Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

The Galla Penetration. It has long ago been remarked that the black sphinxes,
later appropriated by the Hyksos, approximated to the Galla type of Abyssinia.

. . . .

This starts an enquiry how the Galla connection could thus appear on monuments.
In the clearance and planning of the rock tombs at Qau, Antaeopolis, the peculiar
plan of those tombs, with great halls and small chambers annexed, was observed
to be closely parallel to that of later Nubian temples. In both tomb and temple
the chief work is in the solid rock, while the forecourt is of masonry constructed
in front of it. Another peculiarity was the hammer-work excavation of one tomb,
which had evidently been done with stone balls, as in the Aswan granite working,
and this implies a southern connection.

. . . .

Ancestry of Senusert. In the tomb of prince Uah-ka B at Qau, in an inner chamber,
is painted a scene of the son of Uah-ka, named Senusert; there is no cartouche.
As the Uah-ka family were of about the 4th or 5th dynasty (the name being unknown
either in the 11th of the 12th dynasty), this implies that the 12th dynasty Senusert
family descended from the Uah-ka family. Here we have, then, a link between the Galla
type on the sphinxes and the 12th dynasty. The separate identification of these sphinxes
follows further on. The 12th dynasty was undoubtedly descended from Amenemhat, the great
vizier of the 11th dynasty. It seems, then, that he married the heiress of the Uah-ka
family, as stated in the pseudo-prophecy, "A king shall come from the south whose name
is Ameny, son of a Nubian woman." She called her son by the family name Senusert, and he
was the founder of the 12th dynasty, according to Manetho. Waka is the god of the Gallas.

---

• Zanakht of dynatsy 3 was a Nehasi
• the 4th dynasty queen Khentkaues was of Ta Seti and she birthed the
  first two kings of the 5th dynasty
• the Uahka family established the 12th dynasty
• Senwosret or Sesostris was a common Uahka name
• the name Amenhotep or Amememhet shows the Uahka connection to Amun and Gebel Barkal
• Amenemhet I was vizier for Mentuhotep IV of the preceding 11th dynasty, his ancestry of and marrige in the Uahka family legitimized his natural right to the throne
• the 14th dynasty's second ruler was actually named Nehesi and honored his mother Peret incorporating her name in his cartouche
• Piye and the succeeding 25th dynasty are too famous to detail
• the 25th dynasty was ultra orthodox reviving tradition throughout T3 Akht
• in truth pharoanic Kmt ended with the 25th dynasty from Napata/Gebel Barkal

quote:

---

... the Egyptian pharaohs of Dynasty 18 had recognized Gebel Barkal as
an ancient source of Egyptian kingship and had themselves crowned there
to affirm their rule, the new kings of Kush rediscovered this tradition and
[] used it to prove their right to rule Egypt. Since the first to recognize
the religious significance of Gebel Barkal had been the Pharoah Thutmose
III (ca. 1479-1425 BC)[.]

. . . .

If [Keshites] have traditionally been portrayed by historians s "foreigners"
in Egypt, they surely did not see themselves as such, despite their
different ethnic, cultural and linguistic origin. In their minds Egypt and
Kush were northern and southern halves of an ancient original domain of
Amun. These two lands, they believed, had been united in mythological
times; subsequently they grew apart, to be united again in historical times
only by the greatest pharaohs. As "sons" of Amun, the Napatan monarchs
saw themselves as heirs of those pharaohs [. . .] believ[ing] they were
the god's representatives - from his southern sphere - chosen to unite
and protect his ancient empire and to restore ma'at - "truth, order, and
propriety" in the Egyptian sense - throughout the land.

---

quote:

---

... long before the Egyptians had set eyes on Gebel Barkal, the Nubians,
too, had held it sacred. Although no pre-Egyptian settlement or cultic
remains have yet been found there, unstratified Nubian pottery has been
recovered, dating from the Neolithic, Pre-Kerma, and Kerma periods. This
indicates that the site must have been occupied at least since the fourth
millennium BC. The discovery on the summit of Gebel Barkal of
thousands of chipped stone wasters, made of types of stones that can
only be found on the desert floor, suggests that people brought stones to
the summit to work them, a practice that implies a religious motivation.
Likewise, the similarity between the sanctuary at Barkal, as it appeared in
the Egyptian and Kushite periods, and that of Kerma, as it appeared at
the end of the Classic Kerma phase, may suggest that there was a pre-
Egyptian cultic connection between Gebel Barkal and the "Western
Deffufa" at Kerma. There exists at least the possibility that the latter, a
rectangular, brick built, mountain-like platform 19 m high, may have been
built at Kerma as a magical substitute or "double" of Gebel Barkal. After
all, complexes of temples were built in front of each, and each was
conceived as the dwelling place of a powerful god.

There is no doubt that the Egyptians, and probably, too, the earlier
Nubians, attached sacred significance to Gebel Barkal because of its
bizarre form. Not only was the hill isolated on a flat desert plain and
possessed of a spectacular cliff, 90 m high and 200 m long, its
southwestern corner was marked by an enormous free-standing pinnacle,
nearly 75 m high (fig.5). This monolith had all the appearance of a statue,
but without precise form, and it could be imagined in many ways
simultaneously. On the one hand, it could be seen as the figure of a
standing king or god, wearing the White Crown. It could be seen as an
erect phallus. It could also be seen as a rearing cobra (uraeus), wearing
the White Crown. Ancient documents, both written and pictorial, reveal
that the rock was imagined as all these things at once and was thus
venerated as the source of the divine power of all the various things it
represented. As a crowned human figure, it would have represented the
living king or the ultimate royal ancestor, or the god himself. As a phallus,
it would have represented Amun as father and procreator. As uraeus, it
would have represented each and every goddess and all female creative
power. It was thus father, mother, and royal child combined as one -
which was apparently the very meaning of "Kamutef." Gebel Barkal, by
means of the phallic-shaped pinnacle, not only confirmed the presence of
Amun, it also had precisely the form of the Primeval Hill of Egyptian
tradition, on which the Creator was thought to have appeared at the
beginning of time and generated the first gods through an act of
masturbation.

---

quote:

---

THE early history of the god Amen is somewhat obscure, and his origin is
unknown. The name Amen means "hidden (one)," a title which might be
applied to many gods. A god Amen and his consort Ament or Amenit are
mentioned in the Pyramid Texts (UNAS, line 558), where they are
grouped with Nau and Nen, and with the two Lion gods Shu and Tefnut.
This Amen was regarded as an ancient nature-god by the priests of
Heliopolis under the Vth dynasty, and it is possible that many of his
attributes were transferred at a very early period to Amen, the great god
of Thebes. Though recent excavations have shown that a cult of Amen
existed at Thebes under the Ancient Empire, it is doubtful if it possessed
any more than a local importance until the XIIth dynasty. When the
princes of Thebes conquered their rivals in the north and obtained the
sovereignty of Egypt, their god Amen and his priesthood became a great
power in the land, and an entirely new temple was built by them, in his
honour, at Karnak on the right bank of the Nile. The temple was quite
small, and resembled in form and arrangement some of the small Nubian
temples; it consisted of a shrine, with a few small chambers grouped
about it, and a forecourt, with a colonnade on two sides of it. Amen was
not the oldest god worshipped there, and his sanctuary seems to have
absorbed the shrine of the ancient goddess Apit. ...

Although the kings of the XIIth dynasty were Thebans it is possible that
they and many of their finest warriors had Sudani blood in their veins,
and the attributes that they ascribed to Amen were similar to those that
the Nubian peoples assigned to their indigenous gods. To them Amen
symbolized the hidden but irresistible power that produces conception and
growth in human beings and in the animal and vegetable worlds. And in
some places in Egypt, and Nubia and the Oases, the symbol of the god
Amen was either the umbilicus 1 or the gravid womb. The symbol of
Amen that was shown to Alexander the Great, when he visited the temple
of Jupiter Ammon in the Oasis of Siwah, was an object closely resembling
the umbilicus, and it was inlaid with emeralds (turquoises?) and other
precious stones--umbilico maxime similis est habitus, smaragdo et
gemmis coagmentatus.

---

Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

"The Nubian has but to hear (a sound) and he falls at a voice,
it is merely answering him that makes him retreat;
if one is agressive against him he turns tail,
retreat and he becomes more aggressive.
they are certainly not people to be respected:
they are craven wretches.
My majesty has seen them-it is not a lie."

---

This pharaoh is talking about his military expeditions against
Wawat. Before the unification of the Two Lands, Wawat ruled
up to Nag el Hasaya in what would later be the 2nd nome of
Upper Egypt (Heru's Throne) immediately north of the 1st nome
TaSeti.nwt. So we see there was intense rivalry between TaWy and
TaSeti.x3st since predynastic times.




As we progress into the earliest dynastic era a cultural
demarcation begins to distinguish the two peoples. KM.t
embraced writing while TaSeti and Kesh to the south of it
did not.

Getting back to the author of the above quoted inscription
Sesostris III wrote it after retaking Buhen fortress. Late in
5th dynasty times Wawat took over Buhen fortress, built in
the 4th dynasty by Snefru, and held it until the 12th dynasty
when Sesostris took it and pillaged pastoral populations to
its south. In the very next dynasty (13th) Kesh took it over
holding it until the 18th dynasty.

With all this in mind we can see Sesostris III's boasts are just
that, political hype. During the first 14 dynasties of its history
that though TaWy built Buhen fortress (exchange place or trade
center) Nehesis controlled it for 11 dynasties.

Then too in order to understand Sesostris III implied no "racial"
proclivities we need to know his ancestral antecedents. We'll
examine that next.


PT 2


Sesostris III (also transliterated as Senusret and Senwosret) was a
12th dynasty ruler. Senusret is a name from the Uahka family, one
of whose members took on the name Amenemhet to honor Amen the
major deity of Thebes in KM.t and Gebel Barkal deep in Kwsh. The 9th
and 10th dynasty Uahka family of Thebes were buried in tombs of type
unknown in KM.t but of design in Kush. The Uahka family has been
traced back to the 6th dynasty builders of the temples at Qua near
Abydos. This family established the 12th dynasty.

Amenemhet I started the 12th dynasty. He was vizier to Mentuhotep
IV last pharaoh of dynasty 11. Amenemhet came to rule relying on
a certain claim of ancestry and marriage as his right to attain
to the rulership. The rulers of Kush were known to have a certain
claim on KM.t's throne. This claim grew from the interdependencies
between the two nations of KM.t and Kesh having to do with princes
and princesses from Kush attending the Kmty court and marrying court
members. Amenemhet records a "prophecy" foretelling his upcomance.

quote:

---

provided by Wally (clickable link please go and read it)

nswt pw r iyt n rsy
imny mAa xrw rn.f
sA Hmt pw n tA sty
ms pw n Xn nxn
iw.f r Ssp HDt
iw.f r wTs dSrt
iw.f smA sxmty
iw.f r sHtp nbwy
m mrt.sn
pXr iHy m xfa wsr m nwd

There is a king who will come from the south
Ameny true of voice is his name.
He is the son of a woman of the Land of the Bow,
he is a child of the Heartland of Nekhen.
He will take up the White Crown,
he will raise up the Red Crown,
he will unite the Two Mighty Goddesses,
he will appease the Two Lord Gods,
with what they desire.
The field circuit is in his grasp, the oar in the jump.

---

quote:

---

"a chieftain is in Avaris and another in Kush:
I sit united with an Aamy and a Nhsy,
each man in possession of his slice of this Egypt."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yonis:

quote:

---

Originally written by Donald Redford:

"Kush is usually said to be 'weak/vile' ...

---

---

Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:

Do you see the shill? The Sudani were the ONLY Negroes (Blacks), ergo the Ancient Egyptians were
not, neither were the peoples of the fertile Saharan crescent, nor the peoples of Central
Africa, nor those of West Africa; it's a load of White racialist crap which, if you buy into it, then you're a
"Gotcha" sucker...

---

Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
there are a number of cases where such an act may have been the legal basis for a non-royal figure's ascent of the throne. However, more usual was the succession of the eldest son, whose status as heir was frequently if not always, proclaimed during his father's lifetime.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:

Do you see the shill? The Sudani were the ONLY Negroes (Blacks), ergo the Ancient Egyptians were
not, neither were the peoples of the fertile Saharan crescent, nor the peoples of Central
Africa, nor those of West Africa; it's a load of White racialist crap which, if you buy into it, then you're a
"Gotcha" sucker...

---

Wally are you questioning Wally Budge's dictionary now? Normally you love to quote from it.

In the mdr ntr the sphere of influence and the people depicted as foreigners in their Table of nations were people in border regions and nearby regions like Ethiopia.
Many far off regions in Africa were not part of their sphere of influence, trade or expeditions.
Their competition was from border and nearer nations. Therefore you can't assume they are talking about the whole continent of Africa.

---

Posts: 220 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

there are a number of cases where such an act may have been the legal basis for a non-royal
figure's ascent of the throne.

---

quote:

---

However, more usual was the succession of the eldest son, whose status as heir
was frequently if not always, proclaimed during his father's lifetime.

---

Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Found 'em.

= = =


PT 1

As long as we continue employing the misnomer "Nubian" projected
in the current literature a certain of confusion will remain in
understanding mdw ntr texts. We must use the specific terms as
they are in the primary sources.


If memory serves me correctly the following quote is from one of
the original Sesotris:

quote:

---

"The Nubian has but to hear (a sound) and he falls at a voice,
it is merely answering him that makes him retreat;
if one is agressive against him he turns tail,
retreat and he becomes more aggressive.
they are certainly not people to be respected:
they are craven wretches.
My majesty has seen them-it is not a lie."

---

This pharaoh is talking about his military expeditions against
Wawat. Before the unification of the Two Lands, Wawat ruled
up to Nag el Hasaya in what would later be the 2nd nome of
Upper Egypt (Heru's Throne) immediately north of the 1st nome
TaSeti.nwt. So we see there was intense rivalry between TaWy and
TaSeti.x3st since predynastic times.




As we progress into the earliest dynastic era a cultural
demarcation begins to distinguish the two peoples. KM.t
embraced writing while TaSeti and Kesh to the south of it
did not.

Getting back to the author of the above quoted inscription
Sesostris III wrote it after retaking Buhen fortress. Late in
5th dynasty times Wawat took over Buhen fortress, built in
the 4th dynasty by Snefru, and held it until the 12th dynasty
when Sesostris took it and pillaged pastoral populations to
its south. In the very next dynasty (13th) Kesh took it over
holding it until the 18th dynasty.

With all this in mind we can see Sesostris III's boasts are just
that, political hype. During the first 14 dynasties of its history
that though TaWy built Buhen fortress (exchange place or trade
center) Nehesis controlled it for 11 dynasties.

Then too in order to understand Sesostris III implied no "racial"
proclivities we need to know his ancestral antecedents. We'll
examine that next.


PT 2


Sesostris III (also transliterated as Senusret and Senwosret) was a
12th dynasty ruler. Senusret is a name from the Uahka family, one
of whose members took on the name Amenemhet to honor Amen the
major deity of Thebes in KM.t and Gebel Barkal deep in Kwsh. The 9th
and 10th dynasty Uahka family of Thebes were buried in tombs of type
unknown in KM.t but of design in Kush. The Uahka family has been
traced back to the 6th dynasty builders of the temples at Qua near
Abydos. This family established the 12th dynasty.

Amenemhet I started the 12th dynasty. He was vizier to Mentuhotep
IV last pharaoh of dynasty 11. Amenemhet came to rule relying on
a certain claim of ancestry and marriage as his right to attain
to the rulership. The rulers of Kush were known to have a certain
claim on KM.t's throne. This claim grew from the interdependencies
between the two nations of KM.t and Kesh having to do with princes
and princesses from Kush attending the Kmty court and marrying court
members. Amenemhet records a "prophecy" foretelling his upcomance.

quote:

---

provided by Wally (clickable link please go and read it)

nswt pw r iyt n rsy
imny mAa xrw rn.f
sA Hmt pw n tA sty
ms pw n Xn nxn
iw.f r Ssp HDt
iw.f r wTs dSrt
iw.f smA sxmty
iw.f r sHtp nbwy
m mrt.sn
pXr iHy m xfa wsr m nwd

There is a king who will come from the south
Ameny true of voice is his name.
He is the son of a woman of the Land of the Bow,
he is a child of the Heartland of Nekhen.
He will take up the White Crown,
he will raise up the Red Crown,
he will unite the Two Mighty Goddesses,
he will appease the Two Lord Gods,
with what they desire.
The field circuit is in his grasp, the oar in the jump.

---

Amenemhet I warred against Wawat pushing south far enough to establish
a center of trade in Kerma at the 3rd cataract. Senusret I mentions the
Akherkin, Kas, Khesaa, Shat, and Shemyk among the peoples of
Wawat that he subdued. Senwosret III annexed Wawat up to the 2nd
cataract as the southern border of KM.t.

Because of their propensities for independence the Senwosrets found
it necessary to wage war against Wawat. On their defeat a string of
fortresses were built. These were at Buhen, Kor, Dorginarti, Mirgissa,
Dabenarti, Askut, Shalfak, Uronarti, Kumma, and Semna. They were to
prevent passage of any Nhsw downriver including shipping, caravan, or
pastoral transhumants. Clearly these people were a serious force to be
reckoned with and not the cowards Senwosret's boasts paint them to be.
Even their merchants and cattlemen were feared as capable of successfully
confronting Kmtw authority.

It seems that Kush at Kerma and above was the seat of Kmt's fear of
adversarial threat from the south. And it was from there indeed that
by 16th dynasty times Nhsw politcal intrigue held one third rulership
over Egypt. In the words of the ruler at Thebes:

quote:

---

"a chieftain is in Avaris and another in Kush:
I sit united with an Aamy and a Nhsy,
each man in possession of his slice of this Egypt."

---

PT 3

The phrase Kush khesyt cited ad nausea has been blown far out of proportion.
An obvious play on word sounds it means defeated more so than it connotes concepts
of contempt. But talk of wretched or vile Kush is irrelevant in understanding how Kmt
viewed her southern neighbors and kinsmen. In war talk what enemies aren't described
with deprecations? To the contrary we can see that certain families of Kush had a right
to the throne of Kmt that was considered the most legitimate of all harking back to the
original western (Greek) notion that Egypt originated when Aithiopians settled downriver.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yonis:

quote:

---

Originally written by Donald Redford:

"Kush is usually said to be 'weak/vile' ...

---

---

---

Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
I would like to thank alTakruri for posting a lot of interesting information

---

Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:
This guy "the lioness', as everyone here must be aware
of is "not wrapped too tight."

---

Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Just call me Jari:

The lioness should now admit defeat like a man

---

Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Dumbass, the inscription is in
Ancient Egyptian language
not English.

---

Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Dumbass, the inscription is in
Ancient Egyptian language
not English.

---

Did I say it wasn't. wtf ???

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
http://egypt-grammar.rutgers.edu/Artifacts/Palermo%20Stone.pdf

on the Palermo Stone
"Land of Nubians" is used instead of
"Land of the Blacks" , ref. Rutgers Univ.

---

Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged |