dana marniche, what were the pre-Muhammad Arab religious beliefs in Mecca?
1)are they based on religious beliefs from Africa or just similar as many religions are not always necessarily connected but still have some similar mythology?
2) Is it safe to say that pre-Muhammad Arabs were polytheistic?
3) what are the basic differences between the Islam that Muhammad taught and pre-Muhammad Arab beliefs including belief in various deities including one called "Allah"?
Posted by Mazigh (Member # 8621) on :
Start with knowing that Africa is Africa and not an everywhere beiing influenceful civilization...
The Arabs were polytheistic. According to me, there is a god named "allah". This god was possibly influenceful in the family of Muhamed. Islam is a revolution against the pre-muhammadan arab belief. Similiraties, even occasional, were fought and oppressed. But how the islam was influenced by those believe is a discutable question.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Unfortunately due to the Islamic notion that Arabian history before Muhammad was the 'Age of Ignorance' most of what we know about pre-Islamic Arabian religion ironically enough comes from the Quran and what Muhammad or his contemporaries describe.
You can just google or look up ancient Arabian religion or mythology but basically the religion was not much different from the ancient religions of other Semitic speaking peoples of Southwest Asia and held most similarity with the religions of the Levant. One basic aspect was that many of the deities were astral and were thus associated with the heavens, but one aspect that differed from Levantine and Mesopotamian practices in my opinion was the totemism with some deities symbolized by animals. In this regard Arabian religion resembled that of African religions. In Mecca in particularly, there were hundreds idols or sacred statues each one representing a deity. Like many Semitic and Afrasian peoples, the Arabian tribes were henotheistic wherein one deity was worshipped above all others in each tribe. The primary deity of Muhammad's tribe the Quraysh was the goddess Qurah. In fact there is evidence via folk tradition that the Kaaba was once the site of goddess worship before it was taken over by the Islam for Allah.
I agree with Mazigh, although some try to argue that Allah was 'conceived' by Muhammad, there tends to be evidence to suggest that Allah was already a deity in Arabian religion. I believe a relative of Muhammad even had the name Abdullah (slave of Allah).
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
The mythology of Southwest Asia is similar to that of the Nile Valley from which it was derived. But then again, you deny (like you deny a stolen legacy) the connection with Africa so... Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
LOL I don't deny anything but your nonsense.
But please explain how Southwest Asian mythology is Nile Valley derived. We've been this route before and all it leads you to is your wreck. Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Yes, we have been down this road before tranny. Ask your boyfriend whatbox to fetch the threads where we see your unbelievable denials of not only Hebrew corruption of Nile Valley cosmology but Canaan as well.
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
@The Lion, your best bet is to look at linguistics. Linguistics is the next best thing to archeology because it forces doubters to try and reconcile history and find new explanatory models for their guessing.
Here is something for you which I will explain in a future paper I am writing in response to Dr. Wesley Muhammad's claim that Allah is a Semtitic god that was introduced into Egypt by way of Black Semites. This Ala/il-ilah is Ra. I will demonstrate that his analysis is flawed because he doesn't examine inner Africa for any concepts found in Arabia. For instance:
In Yoruba Esu is known as Elegbara. It is two words EL (God) AGBARA (power). Hebrew Gebuwr-ah (power), Igbo Agbara (powerful oracle), Ebira 'Ne Gba' (spirit). Elegbara is the Biblical angel Gabri-El (words switched, metathesis). El/Olu/Ala all mean GOD (proto-bantu *y-ulu). Now, the Arabs say ALLAHU AKBAR which means Allah is the Greatest, most powerful. Do you see the connection?
G > K is a common sound shift. So AKBAR is AGBARA in West Africa.
Gabriel is also known as the messenger of God: Gaber-iy-el "the gaber of God." In Amharic gebre means "servant." This g-b-r root in Hebrew lets us know that he is not only a messenger of God, but a GEBER "valiant man," and a GIBBOWR "powerful man." In Yoruba you have egbere "gnome" and al-agbara "a powerful man."
Yoruba: Elegbara, El-egba Fon: Legba Ebira: Ne gba (spirit), obi-negba "great spirit" is God) Owerri Igbo: Agbara Onitsha Igbo: Agbala
Are the Muslims trying to hide their Nigerian roots? The Muslims tried to hide its "polythe(isitc" roots by making the name (elebara) a title for God almighty without acknowledging it represents a secondary force. If they only knew their African history they would understand that the "title" refers to the power of God and the ability to make things happen. Esu is the personification of Ashe. The -s- root speaks of a creative force that brings things into being. This same root is in Wsir and Ist.
Also it should be known that the phrase 'Allahu Akbar' is the opening declaration of every Islamic prayer. In Ifa you open up every prayer, invocation by invoking Elegbara/Esu. All prayers must go through Esu/Elegbara or all prayers lose its potency. Is this a coincidence? That the Muslims open up every prayer with Allahu Akbar and Ifa practitioners open up each invocation with El-Agbara? This cannot be explained by mere "common ancient cultural heritage" as distance and time reeks havoc on that hypothesis in terms of the unity in name and ritual. We won't even mention the divination in Islam.
But look at the language itself and you'll find many answers.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lion: dana marniche, what were the pre-Muhammad Arab religious beliefs in Mecca?
1)are they based on religious beliefs from Africa or just similar as many religions are not always necessarily connected but still have some similar mythology?
2) Is it safe to say that pre-Muhammad Arabs were polytheistic?
3) what are the basic differences between the Islam that Muhammad taught and pre-Muhammad Arab beliefs including belief in various deities including one called "Allah"?
Since Arabia was just an extension of black Africa in the time of Muhammad it would be more accurate to say they were Afro-Arab. Some of the shared African connections stem from Mesolithic and Neolithic times when the Ubaid Negroes occupied Umm an Nar and other parts of northern Arabia and Mesopotamia.
Of course, some people just consider certain types of culture to be African so when I speak of African culture I'm talking about it the way Diop did, in a more "diasporic" way.
The large-bodied Negroid (Ubaid) population later contributed to certain African populations in Kerma and the Nile if not further West. (Archeology has shown the undeniable connection between Kerma and Umm an Nar.) However there are other obviously African-affiliated groups such as the Mushabian Ghassulian along with the tall elongated people with probable connections to the Saharan neolithic culture. Pre-dynastic Nile Valley cultures similar to Amratian and Naqqada culture which stretched to the Red Sea hills are also evidenced in Arabian archeology and rock art.
From what I have read, the pre-Islamic or African Arabs were mainly animistic in their word view with African-like practices and names of deities. They venerated their ancestors, wore cowrie shells, scarred their faces, wore rings through the front and sides of their noses, they greased their hair and wore it in plaits or cornrows.
Diop talks about the cultural relationships somewhat as do others. There were "invocations to the seven planets" "prayers to the sun at different times" among Nubians and Egyptians just as in pre-Islamic Mecca and Arabia.
Of course later Islam tries to destroy many of fthese customs and practices.
Example: "In pre-Islamic days, called the Days of Ignorance, the religious background of the Arabs was pagan, and basically animistic. Through wells, trees, stones, caves, springs, and other natural objects man could make contact with the deity.” J. Van Ess Meet the Arab
It appears also the peoples of the Arabian peninsula being fundamentally African-affiliated venerated similar deities with the same names. They were a strongly matrifocal and matrilineal people putting emphasis on Goddesses. Allah appears to have become a generic name applied to many deities whether female or male by the time of Muhamed (pbuh).
“In the Nabataean inscriptions we repeatedly find the name of a deity accompanied by the title Alaha, 'the god'. Hence, Wellhausen argues that the Arabs of a later age may also have applied the epithet Allah, 'the god', to a number of different deities, and that in this manner Allah, from being a mere appendage to the name of a great god, may gradually have become the proper name of the Supreme God.”
In Mecca in fact the Goddess was worshipped in the form of the cube (Ka'aba)as it had been in neolithic times, and as Diop says in pre-Islamic times the pilgrimage to Mecca already existed.
Some of the matrifocal pre-Islamic practices sound similar to how Beja customs were described by Murray. According to Barbara Walker, "Pre-islamic Arabia was dominated by the female centered clans. Marriages were matrilocal, inheritance matrilineal. Polyandry - several husbands to one wife - was common. Men lived in their wives homes. Divorce was initiated by the wife. if she turned her tent to face east for three ights in a row the husband was dismissed and forbidxden to enter the tent again." From - The Women's Encylopedia of Myths and Secrets, 1983.
The author also claims that even traditions surrounding the Prophet's family lineage showed lineage was matrilocal and "paternity was relatively unimportant".
The early Banu Aus and Khazraj venerated Manat, while banu Sulaym were hereditary priests of Azziza.
The name Haram the sanctuary of the Ka'aba is supposed to be related etymologically to Harim or Harem and orginally priestesses were said to taken care of the Goddess there. Later descendants of the Hashem clan of Quraysh branch of the Kana'aniyya known as Banu Shayba took over as priests.
The names Al'lat or Al'ilat, like the name Allah (thought to be Al'Ilah) have astronomical or astrological origins. This is another aspect that connects the early Arabians to Africa. Most of the early names of the Arabian deities and tribes in fact were related to aspects of the cosmos - i.e. stars and planets and are connected with totemistic beliefs and even mathematical attributes. The name Allah in Kabbalistic philosophy corresponds to PI for example.
The three aspects of Al'Ilat were Q're crescent Moon, Azizz-Lat or Uzza the full Moon symbolized by a the vulture - tutelary Goddess of the Ka'aba - whom some consider to be Isis- and Manat.
An ancient inscription found in Palymra states "Al'lat is also Artemis."
Thus, we can understand why the goddesses Lalita and Mylitta, Diana or Artemis, Kore (who became Hor and Hera) of the Korybantes of the Colchians and the early Curetes (who became Hor and Hera) become associated and blackness in Greek myths.
There are probably pre-Semitic antecedents of the name "Ilah" in ancient African Sumerian-Dravidian dialects. Interestingly Ila is a Goddess in West Africa and in ancient Hindu tradition. "Ila" means God among certain Bantu speakers in among the Tongaila of Zimbabwe. He is the God of all creation.
Some in fact have related the name of Al-ilah to the Sumerian EnLil whose has a counterpart called NinLil. Enlil is of course a son of An and Ki whose names are Sumerian and seemingly the African An or Ani and Kiya or Chi(earth Goddess).
Of course many names of African deities are prefixed with the word An or N in Africa including N'gai, N'gi or Nkai (EnKi?).
Many Arabian deities are undoubtedly the same as ancient Nilotic ones such as the horse God Juok who is likely the horse deity Yacchus or Iachhus of southern Arabians.
The early or original Arabs also had legends of Mount Meru like the Africans and there are in fact many "Semitic" customs as I've already spoken about still practiced in Ethiopia where live many descendants of the original Semitic speakes.
Since most of the tribes in Mecca before and during the time of Muhammed such as the Quraysh or Kenana traditionally traced their lineage came from the southern Hejaz Asir and Yemen the origins or sacred customs in Mecca will probably only be clarified with more knowledge of the background of early African megalithic culture as in ancient south Arabia, the Horn and Nabta Playa and dating back several thousand years B.C..
The peoples of the Islamic Afro-Arab culture were the last of the original Semitic populations to head north and influence Mesopotamia and Syria.
Posted by AswaniAswad (Member # 16742) on :
dana marniche, what were the pre-Muhammad Arab religious beliefs in Mecca?
1)are they based on religious beliefs from Africa or just similar as many religions are not always necessarily connected but still have some similar mythology?
2) Is it safe to say that pre-Muhammad Arabs were polytheistic?
3) what are the basic differences between the Islam that Muhammad taught and pre-Muhammad Arab beliefs including belief in various deities including one called "Allah
1. If u are only speaking of Mecca Pre Islamic Belief than according to Muhammed they were the abu Jahl FAthers of Ignorance worshiped Allat, Uzza, and Manat but pre islamic arabia was full of Jins, Zar etc. They use to kill there first born daughters i dont know how true this is.
Alot of what we have of pre-islam is from the eyes of Muhammed and his followers which is biased.
If u ask me im a muslim and i dont find half the things said about pre-islamic era as being legit first of all u can see how diverse arabia was at the time of Muhammmed and was even before him.
Like for one instance the posiition of Women in Pre-Islamic era is Much better than Islamic era.
Mythology of arabia is very similar in away to Horn especially Somalia.
No its no safe to say Pre-Islamic arabia was Polytheists.
HANIF is Pre-Islamic, NOn-Jewish, NON Christian MOnotheism MUhammed was a Hanif and Muhammed brought nothing Knew to Arabia.
Muhammed Brought Nothing to Arabia that wasnt already there.
Pre-Islamic thought and beliefs is all Threw OUt the Deen of Muslims The Kaaba is Pre-Islamic MUhammed couldnt get rid of it only the idols in the kaaba have been taken out but i heard that it really isnt out.
Pre-Islamic arabia was all about Poetry
Asar give it up Agbara has nothing to do with Arabic or Islam i can take that same word u use and watch this
See u looking at Gebre in the Tigrinia but u need Geberu He did almost to full fill Jabr in arabic restoration Jabreel is the restoration of the message of Allah. Agbara and Akbar have nothing in common i mean nothing.
Allahu Akbar is not the Opening of every Islamic Prayer.
A'AUODU BILLAAHI MINASH-SHAYTAANI RAJEEM BIS-MILLAHI RAHMAANI RAHEEM THIS IS THE OPENING OF EVERY ISLAMIC PRAYER.
MUSLIMS DONT HAVE NIGERIAN ROOTS
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by AswaniAswad: Actually Arabia in that time was only diverse in the sense that it was occupied by Afro-Arabian peoples who had taken some slaves and concubines (same thing but worse) from Syria and Iran and from the Rum (Greco-Romans i.e. Byzantines) and other "red" populations.
Please give some sources about the diversity you are talking about.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
I'll make it easier, Aswani. From the list below of known Arabian clans ( which I retrieved from on-line) in early Islamic times - show which ones portray this "diversity" of ancient Arabia that you are talking about.
The tribes in the west of Medina and Mecca: --> Khuza'ah - Aslam; Ka'b b. 'Amr, al-Mustaliq -> Kinanah - Bakr b. 'Abd Manaf - Damrah (following Ghiffar); Layth; ad-Du'il Mudlij al-Harith b. 'Abd Manaf (part of Ahabish) Muzaynah Juhaynah Azd Shanu'ah (following Daws) The tribes in the east of Medina and Mecca: Khuzaymah (b. Mudrikah; Kinanah members of Khuzaymah) - Asad b. Khuzaymah; ( 'Adal, al-Qarah) Tayyi '(beriku Nabhan) Hudhayl (b. Mudrikah) - Lihyan Muharrib (b. Khasafah) Ghatafan - Ashja '; Fazarah; Murrah; Tha'labah (Anmar following;' Uwal) Sulaym (following Ri'il, Shayban) Hawazim - 'Amr b. Sa'sa'ah - al-Bakka '; Hilal; Kilab (following Qurta'; Uraynah) Rabi'a Jusyam; Nasr; Sa'ad b. Bakr; Thumalah Thaqif (b. Malik, Ahlaf) (Bahilah) The tribes that live in the north: Sa'ad Hudaym; 'Udharah Judham Quda'ah (including Jarm, al-Qayn, Salaman) Bali Bahra Lakhm (Dar below) Ghassan Kalb The tribes in the south of Mecca: Khat'am (close to Azd Shanu'ah) Mudh'hij - 'Ans; Ju'fi; Khawlan; an-Nakha'; Ruha '; Sa'ad al-'Ashirah Bajilah Hamdan Al-Ahrits (Harith)b. Ka'b (including Nahd) Murad Kindah (including Tujib) Himyah (including Yemen) Hadramawt 'AKK and Ash'ar : Mahrah Azd 'Uman;' Abd al-Qays (in Bharayn) Hanifah Tamim Wa'il - Bakr (including Shayban); Taghlib.
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
@Aswani, I'm not going to argue your non linguistic, non-sensical Islamic banter. Save that for someone who cares. I didn't even mention the Tigrigna language in my post. Where did you get from? Don't make up things from thin air because you have nothing logical to say.
In regards to the opening of prayers, here is a good resource by Dr. Noorallah Juma which contradicts your assumptions: http://salmanspiritual.com/akbar.html Posted by the lion (Member # 17353) on :
thamk you dana and Aswani for the info.
Also Aswani, if you are saying
"If u are only speaking of Mecca Pre Islamic Belief than according to Muhammad they were the abu Jahl FAthers of Ignorance worshiped Allat, Uzza, and Manat but pre islamic arabia was full of Jins, Zar etc."
that seems to say yes, pre Islamic Arbaic was polytheist.
I just read that Islamic scholars seem to say that pre-Islamic Arabia was polytheist but some of them like Muhammad were monotheist(hanif) . But if that is the case they only seem to take it back to Ibrahim (Abraham). That's far before Muhammad but what about the time before Ibrahim? Was it all polytheist?
__________________________________
dana, If Egypt is the closet African region to Arabia what are the specific Egyptian influence on Arabian religion (if there are any) ?
Posted by AswaniAswad (Member # 16742) on :
The Lion i told U Hanif was in Arabia at the same time as Polythiesm u cant call the whole of arabia polytheist.
Even some elements of what u think was polytheist was actually MOnotheist. The same can be said about Egyptian religion all egyptologist believe egyptians were polytheist but NO that is Wrong Egyptians Had ONe CReator.
ASar please im not trying to argue but trying to understand your stuff from thin air.
First of all U Said Gebre and Gebre u said was servant like GebreMesqel Gebrmariam now u said nothing about Tigrinia but Gebre is a Tigrinia word u cant bring this word game like Diop did with his Wolof and Hieroglyphics with no linguistic facts.
Asar i actually think u are right about alot of stuff when u come up with your lingustic formats u and Wally but alot of it doesnt make anysense. U call what i say Islamic Banter but i consider what u do as scholarly u see the difference here i love to reason u want to fight come on my brother we are just reasoning im understanding your points and u mine i actually respect both u and WAlly alot and have learned alot from both of u especially hieroglyphs not my speciality.
Dana u answered the question the diversity im talking about was Tribal not non Arabs entering ARabia.
What i mean by Diverse was That Not Everyone in ARabia was from the FAmily of Quariesh. Dont worry Dana we are on the same page. Dana i didnt see it but u forgot Yafi and Ans
The lion it would be impossible for me to Show that Ibrahim exist and even if he did How sure are we that He was even Monothiest.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing-gay: Yes, we have been down this road before tranny. Ask your boyfriend whatbox to fetch the threads where we see your unbelievable denials of not only Hebrew corruption of Nile Valley cosmology but Canaan as well.
Your frustration is evident by your use of the same ad-hominem the head troll Dirk uses. Perhaps he is YOUR boyfriend a member-- another member of your gay-gangbang-clique.
Anyway, no need to evoke Whatbox since the thread is right here. Needless to say anyone with half a brain can see your deranged desperate ass was debunked! I thoroughly showed you how there is more Mesopotamian influence in Hebrew religious belief than there is Egyptian, and that the African influence you point out is rather African commonality through proto-Afrasian origins NOT Nile Valley Egyptian origins.
I want another masochistic beating, feel free to take your sorry ass back there and not pollute lion's thread with any more of your off-topic b|tch nonsense. Posted by Kairi-Tuwei (Member # 17661) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lion: thamk you dana and Aswani for the info.
Also Aswani, if you are saying
"If u are only speaking of Mecca Pre Islamic Belief than according to Muhammad they were the abu Jahl FAthers of Ignorance worshiped Allat, Uzza, and Manat but pre islamic arabia was full of Jins, Zar etc."
that seems to say yes, pre Islamic Arbaic was polytheist.
I just read that Islamic scholars seem to say that pre-Islamic Arabia was polytheist but some of them like Muhammad were monotheist(hanif) . But if that is the case they only seem to take it back to Ibrahim (Abraham). That's far before Muhammad but what about the time before Ibrahim? Was it all polytheist?
__________________________________
dana, If Egypt is the closet African region to Arabia what are the specific Egyptian influence on Arabian religion (if there are any) ?
Are you aware that the Prophet Muhammad ancestor was the first born son of Abraham?
Some people!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: ...From what I have read, the pre-Islamic or African Arabs were mainly animistic in their word view with African-like practices and names of deities. They venerated their ancestors, wore cowrie shells, scarred their faces, wore rings through the front and sides of their noses, they greased their hair and wore it in plaits or cornrows.
Diop talks about the cultural relationships somewhat as do others. There were "invocations to the seven planets" "prayers to the sun at different times" among Nubians and Egyptians just as in pre-Islamic Mecca and Arabia.
Of course later Islam tries to destroy many of fthese customs and practices.
Example: "In pre-Islamic days, called the Days of Ignorance, the religious background of the Arabs was pagan, and basically animistic. Through wells, trees, stones, caves, springs, and other natural objects man could make contact with the deity.” J. Van Ess Meet the Arab
It appears also the peoples of the Arabian peninsula being fundamentally African-affiliated venerated similar deities with the same names. They were a strongly matrifocal and matrilineal people putting emphasis on Goddesses. Allah appears to have become a generic name applied to many deities whether female or male by the time of Muhamed (pbuh).
“In the Nabataean inscriptions we repeatedly find the name of a deity accompanied by the title Alaha, 'the god'. Hence, Wellhausen argues that the Arabs of a later age may also have applied the epithet Allah, 'the god', to a number of different deities, and that in this manner Allah, from being a mere appendage to the name of a great god, may gradually have become the proper name of the Supreme God.”
In Mecca in fact the Goddess was worshipped in the form of the cube (Ka'aba)as it had been in neolithic times, and as Diop says in pre-Islamic times the pilgrimage to Mecca already existed.
Some of the matrifocal pre-Islamic practices sound similar to how Beja customs were described by Murray. According to Barbara Walker, "Pre-islamic Arabia was dominated by the female centered clans. Marriages were matrilocal, inheritance matrilineal. Polyandry - several husbands to one wife - was common. Men lived in their wives homes. Divorce was initiated by the wife. if she turned her tent to face east for three ights in a row the husband was dismissed and forbidxden to enter the tent again." From - The Women's Encylopedia of Myths and Secrets, 1983.
The author also claims that even traditions surrounding the Prophet's family lineage showed lineage was matrilocal and "paternity was relatively unimportant".
The early Banu Aus and Khazraj venerated Manat, while banu Sulaym were hereditary priests of Azziza.
The name Haram the sanctuary of the Ka'aba is supposed to be related etymologically to Harim or Harem and orginally priestesses were said to taken care of the Goddess there. Later descendants of the Hashem clan of Quraysh branch of the Kana'aniyya known as Banu Shayba took over as priests.
The names Al'lat or Al'ilat, like the name Allah (thought to be Al'Ilah) have astronomical or astrological origins. This is another aspect that connects the early Arabians to Africa. Most of the early names of the Arabian deities and tribes in fact were related to aspects of the cosmos - i.e. stars and planets and are connected with totemistic beliefs and even mathematical attributes. The name Allah in Kabbalistic philosophy corresponds to PI for example.
The three aspects of Al'Ilat were Q're crescent Moon, Azizz-Lat or Uzza the full Moon symbolized by a the vulture - tutelary Goddess of the Ka'aba - whom some consider to be Isis- and Manat.
An ancient inscription found in Palymra states "Al'lat is also Artemis."..
Since most of the tribes in Mecca before and during the time of Muhammed such as the Quraysh or Kenana traditionally traced their lineage came from the southern Hejaz Asir and Yemen the origins or sacred customs in Mecca will probably only be clarified with more knowledge of the background of early African megalithic culture as in ancient south Arabia, the Horn and Nabta Playa and dating back several thousand years B.C..
The peoples of the Islamic Afro-Arab culture were the last of the original Semitic populations to head north and influence Mesopotamia and Syria.
This is about as far as I'll agree with you Dana. No doubt the Arabs and in particular, their language represent the last vestiges of proto-Semitic or Afrasian speakers who left Africa to enter Southwest Asia.
As far as the religious beliefs of Arabia, I will add that the Kaaba is considered the sacred 'house' of the gods with the gods being the stone idols themselves. As I said, many of these stone figures were carved into the various shapes or totems of the deities they represented however the holiest icon of them all was the black rock which is considered the very heart of the Kaaba. Islamic lore states that the black rock was a celestial object sent by God to Muhammad who built the Kaaba around it. However, conflicting and more authentic stories tell that the rock as well as Kaaba obviously predate Muhammad. What is consistent is that the rock came from the heavens and is thus a meteorite. Judging from the descriptions, the Kaaba as a sacred house or shrine represented the goddess herself while the rock represented the seed of life. The rock is sometimes shown in a conspicuous opening in the Kaaba that is obviously vaginally shaped. You are correct that the Kaaba was presided by priestesses and in fact Arab descriptions say these priestesses were shaved bald and on certain occasions went about naked. There were 7 high priestesses who were said to symbolized the 7 daughters of the great goddess, and in fact the area as a sacred goddess site was off-limits to males. Ironically this practice was reversed under Islamic take-over.
Posted by Kairi-Tuwei (Member # 17661) on :
Are you aware that his name was Ismail, and that his mother was an Egyptian.
Ismail was the first born son of Abraham, this is what the Bible and the Quran says.
Are the scriptures lie
Abraham was the son of Terah (Genesis 11:27). Abraham was originally from Ur, which was in modern day Iraq. Abraham did not arrive in Canaan until he was 75 years old. He had a brief sojourn in Egypt, during which he allowed his wife, Sarah, to be taken by the Pharaoh (Genesis 12:11-16). Abraham later allowed his wife to be taken by Abimelech, King of Gerar (Genesis 20:2).
Sarah was the half-sister of Abraham. They had the same father, but different mothers (Genesis 20:12). Sarah was 10 years younger than Abraham (Genesis 17:17). Sarah was barren, so she gave her handmaid, Hagar, to Abraham as a wife (Genesis 16:3). Hagar became pregnant with Abraham's child when Abraham was 85 years old!!! After Hagar became pregnant, Sarah twice drove her away: Once before the child was born, (Genesis 16:4-12), and once after (Genesis 21:9-20).
It is to be noted that the Bible often does not present events in chronological order. The story of Sarah driving Hagar and Ishmael away comes after stories of Ishmael as a teenager. Yet, it is clear that Ishmael was an infant when Sarah drove them out (Genesis 21:15-18). This story is related in the Koran as well. The Koran describes Ishmael as an infant, too young to walk.
The story of Abraham taking his son up the mountain to be sacrificed is in the Bible in (Genesis 22:2-12).
Isaac was born to Sarah when Abraham was 100 years old and Sarah was 90 (Genesis 21:5). This is one of the great miracles of the Bible: A child born to a woman of age 90.
All sides agree that Ishmael and Isaac were brothers. They further agree that Ishmael is the father of all Arabs and that Isaac is the father of all Jews. Thus, the three great religions agree that the Arabs and the Jews are brothers; a point often overlooked by those who have not studied these religions. And it is all agreed upon that Ismail was the first son born, and to an Egyptian woman.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I thoroughly showed you how there is more Mesopotamian influence in Hebrew religious belief than there is Egyptian, and that the African influence you point out is rather African commonality through proto-Afrasian origins NOT Nile Valley Egyptian origins.
What you thoroughly did was expose yourself as contradictory flip flop, like claiming the majority of influences on Hebrew culture came from the Levant and Mesopotamia at the same time! You'll babble anything to deny the Nile Valley influences wont you tranny?! LOL!
In the end you were forced to admit: "I acknowledge that that Semitic language and culture is also African"
Even Great Jew schooled your dumbass on Geography.
No need to chase your dumbass on Nile Valley derivatives in SW Asia since black scholars from Diop to Barashango has demonstrated that. You can call them "silly" like you did James. Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I thoroughly showed you how there is more Mesopotamian influence in Hebrew religious belief than there is Egyptian, and that the African influence you point out is rather African commonality through proto-Afrasian origins NOT Nile Valley Egyptian origins.
What you thoroughly did was expose yourself as contradictory flip flop, like claiming the majority of influences on Hebrew culture came from the Levant and Mesopotamia at the same time! You'll babble anything to deny the Nile Valley influences wont you tranny?! LOL!
In the end you were forced to admit: "I acknowledge that that Semitic language and culture is also African"
Even Great Jew schooled your dumbass on Geography.
No need to chase your dumbass on Nile Valley derivatives in SW Asia since black scholars from Diop to Barashango has demonstrated that. You can call them "silly" like you did James.
LoL..
And he will chat bout how Seminole et al. is greater than reyreyrey...and how Brace is one blah..blah..blah..
The bwoy never says one thing and sticks with it. Confusions!
Where is his lover, Ratshole or Rasol? He took off. Did he break up with the tranny or what? or is that you guys just finshed his arse off with logic? Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Don't get too jolly tin-cat just because you have a troll who you think is on your side. By the way, I know you're really glad Rasol an intelligent poster who merely corrects your ridiculous assertions is gone, so you can repeat and promote them. But I frankly don't care.
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing-gay: What you thoroughly did was expose yourself as contradictory flip flop, like claiming the majority of influences on Hebrew culture came from the Levant and Mesopotamia at the same time! You'll babble anything to deny the Nile Valley influences wont you tranny?! LOL!
In the end you were forced to admit: "I acknowledge that that Semitic language and culture is also African"
Even Great Jew schooled your dumbass on Geography.
No need to chase your dumbass on Nile Valley derivatives in SW Asia since black scholars from Diop to Barashango has demonstrated that. You can call them "silly" like you did James.
I didn't flip-flop you dummy. LOL And I wasn't "forced" to admit anything! I ALWAYS stated Semitic to be African derived, but this is NOT the same as YOUR claim that Hebrew or any Levantine or Middle Eastern religion is derived from Egyptian Nile Valley religions, you desperate distorting dimwit! LMAO
Either you are too dumb to notice the difference between each premise, or you are just making an absolutely pathetic attempt to save a destroyed face. I'd give you the benefit of the doubt on your low intelligence and go with the latter. Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Yeh, acknowledging that the Semitic language and culture is African is not admitting their religion is Nile Valley (African) derived. Nice try tranny. LOL
Here, let Great Jew school your dumbass again:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
I've posted these three works time and time again but they go ignored (or feared) because they deflate the lie that Hebrew theology is not African.
Edward H. Sugden Israel's debt to Egypt London: The Epworth Press, 1928
W.O.E Oesterley The Wisdom of Egypt & the Old Testament In the Light of the Newly Discovered 'Teaching of Amen-Em-Ope London/New York; Toronto: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge; Macmillan, 1927.
T. Eric Peet Egypt and the Old Testament Liverpool: University Press of Liverpool ltd., 1922 Boston: Small, Maynard & Co., 1923
You are a slow learner tranny... Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Correction, YOU are a slow learner as well as poor listener.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: If you want another masochistic beating, feel free to take your sorry ass back there and not pollute lion's thread with any more of your off-topic b|tch nonsense.
Of course you choose to disrupt other topics over your defeat rather than to continue (confront) it.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
I just hope people would be more on point with their insults.
Djehuti your attack on Akoben(which I hope stops). Was it really an insult to Akoben or are you just trying to stir things up. Do you know something you would rather think people are clueless about?
Be easy with your insults.
Peace
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Before, tranny claims Hebrews arent Africans:
quote:obviously they were still Asian…
After schooling Hebrews are now African:
quote: I also know that the Arabian peninsula and Levant all the way of to the Zagros is geologically part of the African plate
Before, the tranny claims Hebrew culture is not African:
quote: the mythological traditions and spiritual beliefs are still in situ derived and not Nile Valley
After tranny admits it is African:
quote: I acknowledge that that Semitic language and culture is also African
And of course who could forget the tranny claiming that the majority of influences on Hebrew culture came from the Levant and Mesopotamia at the same time! LOLOL!!
Great Jew had posted these books again and again tranny, why are you ignoring what they are saying? Why do you have a problem admitting Mesopotamian, Levant and Greek debt to Egypt? Why Mary Lefkowitz, why?
quote: Edward H. Sugden Israel's debt to Egypt London: The Epworth Press, 1928
W.O.E Oesterley The Wisdom of Egypt & the Old Testament In the Light of the Newly Discovered 'Teaching of Amen-Em-Ope London/New York; Toronto: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge; Macmillan, 1927.
T. Eric Peet Egypt and the Old Testament Boston: Small, Maynard & Co., 1923
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lion: thamk you dana and Aswani for the info.
Also Aswani, if you are saying
"If u are only speaking of Mecca Pre Islamic Belief than according to Muhammad they were the abu Jahl FAthers of Ignorance worshiped Allat, Uzza, and Manat but pre islamic arabia was full of Jins, Zar etc."
that seems to say yes, pre Islamic Arbaic was polytheist.
I just read that Islamic scholars seem to say that pre-Islamic Arabia was polytheist but some of them like Muhammad were monotheist(hanif) . But if that is the case they only seem to take it back to Ibrahim (Abraham). That's far before Muhammad but what about the time before Ibrahim? Was it all polytheist?
__________________________________
dana, If Egypt is the closet African region to Arabia what are the specific Egyptian influence on Arabian religion (if there are any) ?
Personally I don't think Egypt was any more close to Arabian people than to any other African populations. However, Westley Muhammed writes somewhat about this in his book Black Arabia.
Thanks for your questions Lion they are very relevant to Afrocentric discussion of Nile Valley origins today.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: ...From what I have read, the pre-Islamic or African Arabs were mainly animistic in their word view with African-like practices and names of deities. They venerated their ancestors, wore cowrie shells, scarred their faces, wore rings through the front and sides of their noses, they greased their hair and wore it in plaits or cornrows.
Diop talks about the cultural relationships somewhat as do others. There were "invocations to the seven planets" "prayers to the sun at different times" among Nubians and Egyptians just as in pre-Islamic Mecca and Arabia.
Of course later Islam tries to destroy many of fthese customs and practices.
Example: "In pre-Islamic days, called the Days of Ignorance, the religious background of the Arabs was pagan, and basically animistic. Through wells, trees, stones, caves, springs, and other natural objects man could make contact with the deity.” J. Van Ess Meet the Arab
It appears also the peoples of the Arabian peninsula being fundamentally African-affiliated venerated similar deities with the same names. They were a strongly matrifocal and matrilineal people putting emphasis on Goddesses. Allah appears to have become a generic name applied to many deities whether female or male by the time of Muhamed (pbuh).
“In the Nabataean inscriptions we repeatedly find the name of a deity accompanied by the title Alaha, 'the god'. Hence, Wellhausen argues that the Arabs of a later age may also have applied the epithet Allah, 'the god', to a number of different deities, and that in this manner Allah, from being a mere appendage to the name of a great god, may gradually have become the proper name of the Supreme God.”
In Mecca in fact the Goddess was worshipped in the form of the cube (Ka'aba)as it had been in neolithic times, and as Diop says in pre-Islamic times the pilgrimage to Mecca already existed.
Some of the matrifocal pre-Islamic practices sound similar to how Beja customs were described by Murray. According to Barbara Walker, "Pre-islamic Arabia was dominated by the female centered clans. Marriages were matrilocal, inheritance matrilineal. Polyandry - several husbands to one wife - was common. Men lived in their wives homes. Divorce was initiated by the wife. if she turned her tent to face east for three ights in a row the husband was dismissed and forbidxden to enter the tent again." From - The Women's Encylopedia of Myths and Secrets, 1983.
The author also claims that even traditions surrounding the Prophet's family lineage showed lineage was matrilocal and "paternity was relatively unimportant".
The early Banu Aus and Khazraj venerated Manat, while banu Sulaym were hereditary priests of Azziza.
The name Haram the sanctuary of the Ka'aba is supposed to be related etymologically to Harim or Harem and orginally priestesses were said to taken care of the Goddess there. Later descendants of the Hashem clan of Quraysh branch of the Kana'aniyya known as Banu Shayba took over as priests.
The names Al'lat or Al'ilat, like the name Allah (thought to be Al'Ilah) have astronomical or astrological origins. This is another aspect that connects the early Arabians to Africa. Most of the early names of the Arabian deities and tribes in fact were related to aspects of the cosmos - i.e. stars and planets and are connected with totemistic beliefs and even mathematical attributes. The name Allah in Kabbalistic philosophy corresponds to PI for example.
The three aspects of Al'Ilat were Q're crescent Moon, Azizz-Lat or Uzza the full Moon symbolized by a the vulture - tutelary Goddess of the Ka'aba - whom some consider to be Isis- and Manat.
An ancient inscription found in Palymra states "Al'lat is also Artemis."..
Since most of the tribes in Mecca before and during the time of Muhammed such as the Quraysh or Kenana traditionally traced their lineage came from the southern Hejaz Asir and Yemen the origins or sacred customs in Mecca will probably only be clarified with more knowledge of the background of early African megalithic culture as in ancient south Arabia, the Horn and Nabta Playa and dating back several thousand years B.C..
The peoples of the Islamic Afro-Arab culture were the last of the original Semitic populations to head north and influence Mesopotamia and Syria.
This is about as far as I'll agree with you Dana. No doubt the Arabs and in particular, their language represent the last vestiges of proto-Semitic or Afrasian speakers who left Africa to enter Southwest Asia.
As far as the religious beliefs of Arabia, I will add that the Kaaba is considered the sacred 'house' of the gods with the gods being the stone idols themselves. As I said, many of these stone figures were carved into the various shapes or totems of the deities they represented however the holiest icon of them all was the black rock which is considered the very heart of the Kaaba. Islamic lore states that the black rock was a celestial object sent by God to Muhammad who built the Kaaba around it. However, conflicting and more authentic stories tell that the rock as well as Kaaba obviously predate Muhammad. What is consistent is that the rock came from the heavens and is thus a meteorite. Judging from the descriptions, the Kaaba as a sacred house or shrine represented the goddess herself while the rock represented the seed of life. The rock is sometimes shown in a conspicuous opening in the Kaaba that is obviously vaginally shaped. You are correct that the Kaaba was presided by priestesses and in fact Arab descriptions say these priestesses were shaved bald and on certain occasions went about naked. There were 7 high priestesses who were said to symbolized the 7 daughters of the great goddess, and in fact the area as a sacred goddess site was off-limits to males. Ironically this practice was reversed under Islamic take-over.
Yes - and there were supposedly 360 idols representing the Gods. The Arabians were Sabaeans in that time. Like the Nile Valley people they were related to they were great astronomers and astrologers and their religious cults were based on the veneration of the 7 Pleiades (seven daughters), stars and planets or rather the consciousnesses they represented. And all of these corresponded to the meridians and sacred centers of the physical body as well as of the earth.
This is part of the Mystery System that formed the basis of ancient Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kairi-Tuwei: Are you aware that his name was Ismail, and that his mother was an Egyptian.
Ismail was the first born son of Abraham, this is what the Bible and the Quran says.
Are the scriptures lie
Abraham was the son of Terah (Genesis 11:27). Abraham was originally from Ur, which was in modern day Iraq. Abraham did not arrive in Canaan until he was 75 years old. He had a brief sojourn in Egypt, during which he allowed his wife, Sarah, to be taken by the Pharaoh (Genesis 12:11-16). Abraham later allowed his wife to be taken by Abimelech, King of Gerar (Genesis 20:2).
Sarah was the half-sister of Abraham. They had the same father, but different mothers (Genesis 20:12). Sarah was 10 years younger than Abraham (Genesis 17:17). Sarah was barren, so she gave her handmaid, Hagar, to Abraham as a wife (Genesis 16:3). Hagar became pregnant with Abraham's child when Abraham was 85 years old!!! After Hagar became pregnant, Sarah twice drove her away: Once before the child was born, (Genesis 16:4-12), and once after (Genesis 21:9-20).
It is to be noted that the Bible often does not present events in chronological order. The story of Sarah driving Hagar and Ishmael away comes after stories of Ishmael as a teenager. Yet, it is clear that Ishmael was an infant when Sarah drove them out (Genesis 21:15-18). This story is related in the Koran as well. The Koran describes Ishmael as an infant, too young to walk.
The story of Abraham taking his son up the mountain to be sacrificed is in the Bible in (Genesis 22:2-12).
Isaac was born to Sarah when Abraham was 100 years old and Sarah was 90 (Genesis 21:5). This is one of the great miracles of the Bible: A child born to a woman of age 90.
All sides agree that Ishmael and Isaac were brothers. They further agree that Ishmael is the father of all Arabs and that Isaac is the father of all Jews. Thus, the three great religions agree that the Arabs and the Jews are brothers; a point often overlooked by those who have not studied these religions. And it is all agreed upon that Ismail was the first son born, and to an Egyptian woman.
Ur of the Khasdim as spoken of the the Bible is known today the south Arabian town of War Maqsud according to Kamal Salibi. Most of the place names mentioned in the Bible have been identified in south Arabia by Salibi. See The Bible Came from Arabia.
The name Khasdim is likely the same as Cassit or Hashid as Nimorod is sometimes called Numair ibn Cassit or Numair bin Arphaxad in Muslim tradition.
The "Chaldeans" and Caldones was also the Greek name for a tribe of Arabians settled in Mesopotamia. Interestingly Pliny places the Gens Chaldaei in the area of Musandam, Oman. Charles Forster connects the name to the Beni Khaled who claimed origin from the Tayyi Yemenites. Harran is the south Arabian Hauran according to Salibi. To understand why Strabo claimed the Chaldeans were in remote times "an Egyptian priest caste". It would good to understand how the West has distorted the names of the ancient Hebraic towns and tribes. "Hebrews" did not come from Turkey or Iraq.
The idea that Misraim or Mitzraim and Misra in the Bible refers to the African Lower Nile or Khemit is also a historical distortion. The tribe of Misrah or Masruh as they are called today were ancient Arabians from which came the Azd tribe of Hajar (Hagar) who still live in Yemen. The legend of Muzir, Mudir or Mudar and Rabab is also closely related to that of Mizraim or Metzir as Rahab (the serpent) in the Hebraic book of the Bible and is allegorical and astronomical in origin.
A man from the Hajar in south Arabia
The Hajr (Hagar) are a clan descended from the Azd Uman claiming descent from Amr Muzaikiyya. (See Encyclopaedic Ethnography of Middle East and Central Asia Vol. 1 p. 66 by R. Khanam) Muzaikiyya is called Moses in the West.
In both Arabian and Hebraic tradition is also known as Keturah/Qeturah from the name Bait Kathirah also still living in Yemen.
For descriptions of the Banu Azd see the blogs by Tariq Berry. They are described as black (khudar) or "jet black" until late times. According to tradition these tribes left Marib (Meriba of Exodus 17) between after their dam broke.
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
You obviously don't have access to dictionaries of various African languages or know the least bit basics of comparative linguistics to make a sound critique as you are oblivious to the notion of the bi- & tri-consonantal roots of the so-called "Afro-Asiatic" languages and how these same roots are present in Nigerian languages such as Yoruba.
In the specific misquote you stated I said Amharic and I was specific in Amharic (Amarigna) and not Tigrigna. The g-b-r root in Hebrew has many definitions (like all tri-root terms); one being a servant, the other being a messenger. When you say 'debaro^w it means "valiant warriors" (Ps 103:20b, Joel 2:11b). Powerful men are known as gibbor-iym. All these terms are rooted in the concept of "strength" which reflexes in the Hebrew 'gibbo^wr "to run his cours." It takes strength to run.
So in Arabic when you see akbar "great, powerful" it comes from this same common root found in Hebrew, Yoruba, Igbo, Ebira, and Fon.
If it doesn't make any sense to you, ask. Ask how linguists determine cognates in related languages. Don't just banter if you have no clue of what you're talking about. To repeat what I said:
quote: Gabriel is also known as the messenger of God: Gaber-iy-el "the gaber of God." In Amharic gebre means "servant." This g-b-r root in Hebrew lets us know that he is not only a messenger of God, but a GEBER "valiant man," and a GIBBOWR "powerful man." In Yoruba you have egbere "gnome" and al-agbara "a powerful man."
Yoruba: Elegbara, El-egba Fon: Legba Ebira: Ne gba (spirit), obi-negba "great spirit" is God) Owerri Igbo: Agbara Onitsha Igbo: Agbala
Learn common sound shifts and variations of terms within the languages. The issue is to great to deal with here. The Yoruba, the early Semites and the ancient Egyptians in antiquity belonged to one speech community.
The Yoruba STILL honor/worship the hundreds of deities the Arabs and Jews abandoned. But they didn't get rid of all the deities. They are just brought down to functions and titles. Islam is explained through Ifa and any practitioner knows this.
quote:Originally posted by AswaniAswad:
ASar please im not trying to argue but trying to understand your stuff from thin air.
First of all U Said Gebre and Gebre u said was servant like GebreMesqel Gebrmariam now u said nothing about Tigrinia but Gebre is a Tigrinia word u cant bring this word game like Diop did with his Wolof and Hieroglyphics with no linguistic facts.
Asar i actually think u are right about alot of stuff when u come up with your lingustic formats u and Wally but alot of it doesnt make anysense. U call what i say Islamic Banter but i consider what u do as scholarly u see the difference here i love to reason u want to fight come on my brother we are just reasoning im understanding your points and u mine i actually respect both u and WAlly alot and have learned alot from both of u especially hieroglyphs not my speciality.
Posted by AswaniAswad (Member # 16742) on :
The idea that Misraim or Mitzraim and Misra in the Bible refers to the African Lower Nile or Khemit is also a historical distortion. The tribe of Misrah or Masruh as they are called today were ancient Arabians from which came the Azd tribe of Hajar (Hagar) who still live in Yemen. The legend of Muzir, Mudir or Mudar and Rabab is also closely related to that of Mizraim or Metzir as Rahab (the serpent) in the Hebraic book of the Bible and is allegorical and astronomical in origin.
Nice Idea Dana but i would have to disagree the Hebrew Poetic name for so called Egypt was Rahab Misram or Misr is actually associated with Lentils what most people dont understand and try to distort into thinking it meant anything with the Tribe of Azd or Hajar.
Egypt was a Large Farm and Cultivator of Lentils as the Land of Misr or Misram Land of Lentils.
That Word Masri comes from the root word for Lentils.
Asar i will start another thread to get some understanding about what u are talking about i have never look at the other languages of west africa or those of nigeria,niger or kordafan.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by AswaniAswad: The idea that Misraim or Mitzraim and Misra in the Bible refers to the African Lower Nile or Khemit is also a historical distortion. The tribe of Misrah or Masruh as they are called today were ancient Arabians from which came the Azd tribe of Hajar (Hagar) who still live in Yemen. The legend of Muzir, Mudir or Mudar and Rabab is also closely related to that of Mizraim or Metzir as Rahab (the serpent) in the Hebraic book of the Bible and is allegorical and astronomical in origin.
Nice Idea Dana but i would have to disagree the Hebrew Poetic name for so called Egypt was Rahab Misram or Misr is actually associated with Lentils what most people dont understand and try to distort into thinking it meant anything with the Tribe of Azd or Hajar.
Egypt was a Large Farm and Cultivator of Lentils as the Land of Misr or Misram Land of Lentils.
That Word Masri comes from the root word for Lentils.
Asar i will start another thread to get some understanding about what u are talking about i have never look at the other languages of west africa or those of nigeria,niger or kordafan.
I have not written about my ideas Aswani, and I suggest when you are expressing opinion you also include something to back it up because we should NOT be on a site dealing with history simply expressing our "ideas" and opinions. I am having a feeling that your answers are inspired by some political conflict you are having with other Beni Amer or Arabized Beja. I do not post things without having something to back it up or based on nationalisms. I have never heard something like what you are saying about "Masruh" meaning lentils. What are your sources?
First of all the word Masruh in Arabic from what I understand is "Adas". Masruh also in Hejaz are basically from the Harb a branch of the Hawazin bin Mansur.
Metzir or Medir from which comes the Biblical word Mitzraim or Mizrah in Ethiosemitic dialects refers to the earth. Medir or Medr was an earth deity in Ethiopia and apparently Hadramaut which evidently had something to do with the God Mitra further north. The latter was venerated by people known under the designation Magi a name for priests in Ethiopia and early Persia.
According to both MacMichaels (A History of the Arabs of Sudan and orientalist Robertson Smith "The Masruh tree splits into two great branches, Benu Auf and Benu Amur.* The former is a large clan, extending from Wady Nakia near Nijd, to Rabigh and Al-Madinah. They have few horses, but many dromedaries, camels, and sheep, and are much feared by the people, on account of their warlike and savage character. They separate into ten sub- divisions, viz. : —
1. Sihliyah (Sihli), about 2000 in number. 2. Sawaid (Sa'idi), 1000. 3. Rukhasah (Rakhis). 4. Kassanin (Kassan) : this sub-clan claims origin from the old '* Gassan " stock, and is found in considerable numbers at Wady Nakia and other places near Al-Madinah.
5. Ruba'ah (Rabai). 6. Khazarah (Khuzayri). 7. Lahabah (Lahaybi), 1500 in number. 8. Faradah (Faradi). 9. Benu Ali (Alawi). 10. Zubayd (Zubaydi), near Meccah, a numerous clan of fighting thieves."
"Also under the Benu Amur — as the word is popularly pronounced — are ten sub-families.
The word ar-Rabai means according to Ibn Khallikan "from the Rabi'a" tribe. See Ibn Khallikan's Biographical Dictionary.
The Beni Amur are or Amer bin Bakr are of course the Beni Amer that crossed into Africa.
The Rakhalah are the Rahil. Her name is "Rachel" of the Bible.
Zubayd or Zebeyd (Burkhardt) is the name for the Abs who settled Zabid in the Tihama where the name of the tribe of Hagar became known as Kishon or Kassan. in the Hebrew book of gthe Bible it is called the brook of Zerid.
The Syrian Masudi speaks of this brook in connection with the Ghassan (Kassan) Azdites.
'They continued on their way and came to camp between the land of the Aharites and Akk, near a pool named Gassan, between two valleys called Zebid and Rima, and they drank the water of the pool."
The brook of Gasan is called Kishon in various books of the Hebrew Bible.
I wrote about the origins of these groups in another blog: "Among them were the followers of a man named Muzaikiyya also called Amr or Amru bin Amir, who was the Biblical Moses. The descendants of these people were the Khazras and Aus or Awza (Biblical Gezer and Uz, children of Aram) who settled in Hejaz in the area of a brook or stream called Kushan or Kishon not long after the time of their leader Amru bin Amir. Their descendants were called the Kushan or Kassan or Kusim in Syrian dialects. They were the Biblical "Jokshan", who was said to be a brother of Midian, whom in Habbakuk are called "Kushan".
According to David Goldenberg in, The Curse of Ham, “the prophet Habbakuk parallels Kushan with Midian: The Tents of Kushan…the dwellings of Midian and because scholars have concluded there is some connection between Kushan and Midian: The Kushan are historically known in the works of Ptolemy . The same tribe named by Agatharchides as Cassandreis and by Diodorus the Gasandi. They were located southeast of Mecca and are also called Ghassan."
The Ghassan or so called Kushan are of course a major tribe of the Azd who by tradition branched off from the Khazraj, Aus (Uz) and Khuza'a or Khaza'a (the Biblical Hazo).
Lahaba are likely the Hebrew "Lehabim" child of Misrah mentioned in the Bible.
From the name of Ghassan or Kassan are the hebrew Jokshan. The Khazarah refer to the people in Arabic texts called Khazraj or Khazras or Hazaras. Josephus replaces the word Jokshan with Jazar, a reference to the Khazras or Khazraj. (This family or clan name is pronounced Jazraj in India.)
The tribal name Jabir became Gabir in Egypt and other parts of Africa. This is etymologically related to to the name Jababirah in Arabic or Gheber in the the Hebrew Bible and Gobir of the Africans. The word Kabir or Gheber refered to one of the ancient Arabic deities and later evolves into the word Akbar or Kabir meaning great.
The Masruh clans are usually written of as a group of the Harb or Hawazin bin Mansur and brethren to Sulaym bin Mansur.
Ubadah bin Samit and his people who we have been talking about on this forum are claimed to be by Tabari and others from the Salim bin Auf clan of the Khazraj (Khazaras).
If such people also traditionally claim descent from the Azd (and they did) it is because it was simply the legend about the movement of the Banu Azd or Asad from Marib which is the story mentioned in the Hebrew book of the Exodus about their flight from Meribah and Misrah in very ancient times. I am sure you are familiar with the story of the Amr Muzeikiya and Ma es-Sama whom we in the west call Moses.
The origins of Hawazin bin Mansur, Mazin bin Mansur, and Sulaym bin Mansur is the actually representative of the movement of the tribes of Manasseh (Manasse'ir)northward into the northern Hejaz and Syria in pre-Islamic times after the flood of their dam at Marib.
In what dialect are you saying "Masruh" meant lentils. The name does not come to refer to Egypt until after such Canaanite tribes that composed the Hyksos took it over. That is a fact known by historians, thus it is highly unlikely the name Masruh meant lentils. Masruh or "Musri" are a north Arabian tribe also mentioned in Assyrian texts.
The genealogy of Suleym or Sulaym, Mazin and Hawazin are that they were the children of Mansur (Manasseh) son of Ikrima (Ikrima) bin Khasafa (Asaf or Hasepha) son of Qays son of Ailan. It is another way of saying the clans of Soleym and the Azd descend from the original Israelite/Canaanite people of the region south of Ta'if extending to the Sara'at in Asir.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Before, tranny claims Hebrews arent Africans:
quote:obviously they were still Asian…
After schooling Hebrews are now African:
quote: I also know that the Arabian peninsula and Levant all the way of to the Zagros is geologically part of the African plate
Before, the tranny claims Hebrew culture is not African:
quote: the mythological traditions and spiritual beliefs are still in situ derived and not Nile Valley
After tranny admits it is African:
quote: I acknowledge that that Semitic language and culture is also African
And of course who could forget the tranny claiming that the majority of influences on Hebrew culture came from the Levant and Mesopotamia at the same time! LOLOL!!
LMAO is right! Obviously you are too stupid to understand any of what I said in regards to context. 'Hebrews' were not Africans in they as an ethnic group did not originate in Africa, moron but in Southwest Asia. What I acknowledge is Takruri's viewpoint wherein he includes all of Rift-Valley geologic region from Arabia to Zagros mountains as still part of Africa despite its separation. By this claim even peoples of southern Turkey would be 'Africans' then! Also, I never agreed that the mythological beliefs of Israelites or 'Hebrews' was Nile Valley since it is obviously Canaanite or Levantine based. So you are obviously delusional here.
quote:Great Jew had posted these books again and again tranny, why are you ignoring what they are saying? Why do you have a problem admitting Mesopotamian, Levant and Greek debt to Egypt? Why Mary Lefkowitz, why?
quote: Edward H. Sugden Israel's debt to Egypt London: The Epworth Press, 1928
W.O.E Oesterley The Wisdom of Egypt & the Old Testament In the Light of the Newly Discovered 'Teaching of Amen-Em-Ope London/New York; Toronto: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge; Macmillan, 1927.
T. Eric Peet Egypt and the Old Testament Boston: Small, Maynard & Co., 1923
^ LOL I never ignored it but addressed it and everything here, you moron! Why do you continually ignore this thread but b*tch and whine about the topic here and in other threads??
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Personally I don't think Egypt was any more close to Arabian people than to any other African populations. However, Westley Muhammed writes somewhat about this in his book Black Arabia.
Thanks for your questions Lion they are very relevant to Afrocentric discussion of Nile Valley origins today.
What is your knowledge about ancient Arabian relations with the Nile Valley??
quote:Yes - and there were supposedly 360 idols representing the Gods. The Arabians were Sabaeans in that time. Like the Nile Valley people they were related to they were great astronomers and astrologers and their religious cults were based on the veneration of the 7 Pleiades (seven daughters), stars and planets or rather the consciousnesses they represented. And all of these corresponded to the meridians and sacred centers of the physical body as well as of the earth.
This is part of the Mystery System that formed the basis of ancient Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Yom, an Ethiopian poster once pointed out many similarities between pre-Islamic Arabian religions and those of pre-Christian Ethio-Semitic peoples. Also, I wonder if the astrology systems used by ancient Arabians and Levantines is the same as the Chaldeans.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:'Hebrews' were not Africans in they as an ethnic group did not originate in Africa, moron but in Southwest Asia. What I acknowledge is Takruri's viewpoint wherein he includes all of Rift-Valley geologic region from Arabia to Zagros mountains as still part of Africa despite its separation.
So they were geographically part of Africa, but still "Asian". Culture and language is also African, but they are still "Asian". LOL You take your verbal gymnastics to new heights.
quote:it is obviously Canaanite or Levantine based.
But you said before that the *majority* of it came from Mesopotamia, then you said majority came from Levant. Then you said culture was African, or are you saying Levant and Mesopotamia is African?
quote:I never ignored it but addressed it a
Yeh just like you "addressed" the stolen legacy thread. lol
Posted by Narmer Menes (Member # 16122) on :
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: @The Lion, your best bet is to look at linguistics. Linguistics is the next best thing to archeology because it forces doubters to try and reconcile history and find new explanatory models for their guessing.
Here is something for you which I will explain in a future paper I am writing in response to Dr. Wesley Muhammad's claim that Allah is a Semtitic god that was introduced into Egypt by way of Black Semites. This Ala/il-ilah is Ra. I will demonstrate that his analysis is flawed because he doesn't examine inner Africa for any concepts found in Arabia. For instance:
In Yoruba Esu is known as Elegbara. It is two words EL (God) AGBARA (power). Hebrew Gebuwr-ah (power), Igbo Agbara (powerful oracle), Ebira 'Ne Gba' (spirit). Elegbara is the Biblical angel Gabri-El (words switched, metathesis). El/Olu/Ala all mean GOD (proto-bantu *y-ulu). Now, the Arabs say ALLAHU AKBAR which means Allah is the Greatest, most powerful. Do you see the connection?
G > K is a common sound shift. So AKBAR is AGBARA in West Africa.
Gabriel is also known as the messenger of God: Gaber-iy-el "the gaber of God." In Amharic gebre means "servant." This g-b-r root in Hebrew lets us know that he is not only a messenger of God, but a GEBER "valiant man," and a GIBBOWR "powerful man." In Yoruba you have egbere "gnome" and al-agbara "a powerful man."
Yoruba: Elegbara, El-egba Fon: Legba Ebira: Ne gba (spirit), obi-negba "great spirit" is God) Owerri Igbo: Agbara Onitsha Igbo: Agbala
Are the Muslims trying to hide their Nigerian roots? The Muslims tried to hide its "polythe(isitc" roots by making the name (elebara) a title for God almighty without acknowledging it represents a secondary force. If they only knew their African history they would understand that the "title" refers to the power of God and the ability to make things happen. Esu is the personification of Ashe. The -s- root speaks of a creative force that brings things into being. This same root is in Wsir and Ist.
Also it should be known that the phrase 'Allahu Akbar' is the opening declaration of every Islamic prayer. In Ifa you open up every prayer, invocation by invoking Elegbara/Esu. All prayers must go through Esu/Elegbara or all prayers lose its potency. Is this a coincidence? That the Muslims open up every prayer with Allahu Akbar and Ifa practitioners open up each invocation with El-Agbara? This cannot be explained by mere "common ancient cultural heritage" as distance and time reeks havoc on that hypothesis in terms of the unity in name and ritual. We won't even mention the divination in Islam.
But look at the language itself and you'll find many answers.
The indigenous black Arab's of the Gulf regions resemble West Africans of Nigeria and the Senegambia, and not East Africans.... I always pondered why this was the case... now it's clear.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ I don't buy those silly theories of Afro-Arab migrations to West Africa or vice versa. While of course black Africans have long been present in Arabia, I don't know what that has anything to do with West African traditional religions.
As to the anguishedgayone, I will no longer indulge your off-topic fetish. Anything you want to say, you can address it further here. Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes:
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: @The Lion, your best bet is to look at linguistics. Now, the Arabs say ALLAHU AKBAR which means Allah is the Greatest, most powerful. Do you see the connection?
G > K is a common sound shift. So AKBAR is AGBARA in West Africa.
Gabriel is also known as the messenger of God: Gaber-iy-el "the gaber of God." In Amharic gebre means "servant." This g-b-r root in Hebrew lets us know that he is not only a messenger of God, but a GEBER "valiant man," and a GIBBOWR "powerful man." In Yoruba you have egbere "gnome" and al-agbara "a powerful man."
Yoruba: Elegbara, El-egba Fon: Legba Ebira: Ne gba (spirit), obi-negba "great spirit" is God) Owerri Igbo: Agbara Onitsha Igbo: Agbala
Are the Muslims trying to hide their Nigerian roots? The Muslims tried to hide its "polythe(isitc" roots by making the name (elebara) a title for God almighty without acknowledging it represents a secondary force. If they only knew their African history they would understand that the "title" refers to the power of God and the ability to make things happen. Esu is the personification of Ashe. The -s- root speaks of a creative force that brings things into being. This same root is in Wsir and Ist.
Also it should be known that the phrase 'Allahu Akbar' is the opening declaration of every Islamic prayer. In Ifa you open up every prayer, invocation by invoking Elegbara/Esu. All prayers must go through Esu/Elegbara or all prayers lose its potency. Is this a coincidence? That the Muslims open up every prayer with Allahu Akbar and Ifa practitioners open up each invocation with El-Agbara? This cannot be explained by mere "common ancient cultural heritage" as distance and time reeks havoc on that hypothesis in terms of the unity in name and ritual. We won't even mention the divination in Islam.
But look at the language itself and you'll find many answers.
The indigenous black Arab's of the Gulf regions resemble West Africans of Nigeria and the Senegambia, and not East Africans.... I always pondered why this was the case... now it's clear.
If the people of the Gulf that resemble the tribes of the Nigeria and are indigenous it is more likely because they descend from the Ubaid and Umm-an- Nar culture of that region. In which case they have been there for 7,000 years, much longer than most people have been in Nigeria. Such people are also found in Central Arabia but tend to be much larger than Africans.
Posted by Narmer Menes (Member # 16122) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes:
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: @The Lion, your best bet is to look at linguistics. Now, the Arabs say ALLAHU AKBAR which means Allah is the Greatest, most powerful. Do you see the connection?
G > K is a common sound shift. So AKBAR is AGBARA in West Africa.
Gabriel is also known as the messenger of God: Gaber-iy-el "the gaber of God." In Amharic gebre means "servant." This g-b-r root in Hebrew lets us know that he is not only a messenger of God, but a GEBER "valiant man," and a GIBBOWR "powerful man." In Yoruba you have egbere "gnome" and al-agbara "a powerful man."
Yoruba: Elegbara, El-egba Fon: Legba Ebira: Ne gba (spirit), obi-negba "great spirit" is God) Owerri Igbo: Agbara Onitsha Igbo: Agbala
Are the Muslims trying to hide their Nigerian roots? The Muslims tried to hide its "polythe(isitc" roots by making the name (elebara) a title for God almighty without acknowledging it represents a secondary force. If they only knew their African history they would understand that the "title" refers to the power of God and the ability to make things happen. Esu is the personification of Ashe. The -s- root speaks of a creative force that brings things into being. This same root is in Wsir and Ist.
Also it should be known that the phrase 'Allahu Akbar' is the opening declaration of every Islamic prayer. In Ifa you open up every prayer, invocation by invoking Elegbara/Esu. All prayers must go through Esu/Elegbara or all prayers lose its potency. Is this a coincidence? That the Muslims open up every prayer with Allahu Akbar and Ifa practitioners open up each invocation with El-Agbara? This cannot be explained by mere "common ancient cultural heritage" as distance and time reeks havoc on that hypothesis in terms of the unity in name and ritual. We won't even mention the divination in Islam.
But look at the language itself and you'll find many answers.
The indigenous black Arab's of the Gulf regions resemble West Africans of Nigeria and the Senegambia, and not East Africans.... I always pondered why this was the case... now it's clear.
If the people of the Gulf that resemble the tribes of the Nigeria and are indigenous it is more likely because they descend from the Ubaid and Umm-an- Nar culture of that region. In which case they have been there for 7,000 years, much longer than most people have been in Nigeria. Such people are also found in Central Arabia but tend to be much larger than Africans.
Larger... physically? I live a stones throw from Saudi, so I'd be interested to know what you mean...
Posted by Narmer Menes (Member # 16122) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I don't buy those silly theories of Afro-Arab migrations to West Africa or vice versa. While of course black Africans have long been present in Arabia, I don't know what that has anything to do with West African traditional religions.
As to the anguishedgayone, I will no longer indulge your off-topic fetish. Anything you want to say, you can address it further here.
Djehuti, I don't think anyone is proposing Afro-Arab migrations, no one has mentioned that... in as much we KNOW that they did occur (circa. Mansa Musa), what seems to be being proposed is a previously unexplored connection between the 2 regions, somewhat supported by the great libraries, the Moors (what religion did they practise before the proliferation of Islam) and the 'alleged' conquering of Iberia... many conclusions can be drawn, especially since Asar is presenting some quite clear linguistic links that are worth further investigation. Rather than rubbishing it, why not do a little of your own investigation into what it being proposed and refute it academically... you're definitely competent enough.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: [qb] @The Lion,
If the people of the Gulf that resemble the tribes of the Nigeria and are indigenous it is more likely because they descend from the Ubaid and Umm-an- Nar culture of that region. In which case they have been there for 7,000 years, much longer than most people have been in Nigeria. Such people are also found in Central Arabia but tend to be much larger than Africans.
Larger... physically? I live a stones throw from Saudi, so I'd be interested to know what you mean...
I am assuming since you have not seen Saudis that much larger than Africans then you have not seen the ones I am talking about. If you are familiar with the indigenous populations of Central Arabia than you will have probably seen them, and it is all the more reason why people need to get over there and take photographs of the people in the out of the way places. I know I have seen them in New York and haven't lived in Africa or Arabia. When I went to ask these people where they were from they mentioned some towns which I later discovered were in Central Arabia. I have seen near black Saudis who have a much larger bone structure than any African or African American in the U.S. I have ever seen.
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