This is topic The Black Land/soil nonsense put to bed... no pun intended! in forum Egyptology at EgyptSearch Forums.


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Posted by Narmer Menes (Member # 16122) on :
 
Really good video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxR-cpIBaUE&feature=related
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Good video.
 
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
 
It can't be land or soil because ancient Egypt already had sand.
 
Posted by Kalonji (Member # 17303) on :
 
Clear as a crystal
 
Posted by NeferKemet (Member # 17109) on :
 
Simply well done!
 
Posted by Narmer Menes (Member # 16122) on :
 
So the (miwt) determenative is only used in reference to urban areas, or populaces. So K.mt(niwt) would translate Black Populace... The video also dispels the Nubian Myth by explaining that Egypt was a term used ONLY to describe the Delta region of Kemet, occupied by the Greeks. Kemet referred to the entire region of Egypt/Nubia and there is NO notable distinction used exclusively for the region that we now call Egypt.

Hence, when the term Nubian began being applied and was adopted by the Arab's it was simply a way to distinguish the black (original inhabitants) of Kemet from the Delta occupants, and it remains the same to this day. Those of the delta were and are physically different to the original inhabitants of the Kemet.
 
Posted by mentu (Member # 14537) on :
 
Excellent.The proof is in the pudding!
 
Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
 
AHHH THAT WAS GREAT!!!

I loved the ending! LOL
 
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
 
Good vid, a few notes something that struck me right away, and reminded me of something I've read from Diop. I'm going to break down the vid somewhat in the following...

Ok, The vid speaks upon the explanation for the use of black land for Kemet which derives from Herodotus who speaks to the Nile river flood whereas afterwards there was a sediment that covered the ground making it appear black. And Herodotus MIGHT HAVE SAID Egypt was the gift of the Nile river.

Although when we actually read Herodotus's testimonies, he says "the part of Egypt", so from the start we know he is only talking about a part of Egypt, but which part?

Herodotus goes on to say "where the Greek ships docked" hence we know he's speaking about the delta.

Herodotus goes on to say "is a land of alluvium, a gift from the river"

Well what is Alluvium? (Alluvium (from the Latin, alluvius, from alluere, "to wash against") is loose, unconsolidated (not cemented together into a solid rock), soil or sediments, eroded, deposited, and reshaped by water in some form in a non-marine setting.)

The vid then notes this to be the first historical distortion as its clear that Herodotus is speaking upon the delta (part of Egypt) being a gift from the Nile, not the entire country of Egypt.

Then notes Herodotus saying "In the past the Egyptians didn't have a land" "We know that their Delta, and they are the only ones who say it, and that's how I feel about it" "..was a land of alluvium" "...a land that newly emerged".

Then goes on to note that the black soil comes from the deep south Uganda, Rwanda, Nubia, the sacred soil which comes from inner Africa.

Ok, after noting above, now a quick excerpt from C. A. Diops "African origin of Civilization" and what is said about the Delta;

quote:
In the final analysis, to counter attempts to present the Delta as a region more favorable than Upper Egypt for the flowering of a civilization, it is important to answer with what is really known about the Delta. The Delta is universally recognized as the permanent home of the plague in the Near East. It has been the point of departure for all the epidemics of the plague that have raged in that region throughout the course of history. Without exaggerating, we can go farther and affirm that the Delta, as such, did not exist, even at the time of Menes, since Memphis was at the edge of the sea. The region of lower Egypt was at the time completely unhealthy and almost uninhabitable. One became mired in the mud. After the public works initiated by Menes, it became less unhealthy. As for the western Delta, one can wonder what it was like before Menes since we now know that the course of the river was not the same as it is today and that the first Pharaoh gave it its present direction by having dams built and the earth filled in. Earlier the river had flowed westward.

...the river flowed entirely along the sandy ridge of hills which skirts Egypt on the side of Lybia. Menes, however, by banking up the river at the bend which it forms about a hundred furlongs south of Memphis, laid the ancient channel dry, while he dug a new course for the stream halfway between the two lines of hills. To this day, the elbow which the Nile forms at the point where it is forced aside into a new channel is guarded with the greatest care by the Persians, and strengthened every year; for if the river were to burst out of place, and pour over the mound, there would be danger of Memphis being completely overwhelmed by the flood.

If the damn broke, Memphis would be submerged by the waters of the Nile. This proves that the site of the city was really won from the waters, somewhat like polders. The capital of the first Egyptian king was in the south, at Thebes, and Memphis was founded, above all, for military purposes. It was a fortified place at the junction of the infiltration routes for Asian shepherds from the east and nomads from the west, whom the Egyptians called Rebou or Lebou, whence the name Lybians. (Eighteenth Dynasty)

^^Seems basically that the Delta didn't exist at the rise of Dynastic Egypt and that it was created afterwards. Herodotus noting that the part of Egypt where the Greeks docked their ships (Delta) was a newly crated land of alluvium is more testament to this fact.
 
Posted by DhulAlQarnain (Member # 17584) on :
 
So that just defeats your whole lie about everyone coming from the Egyptians, Huh.

Damn Dummy MOM718 (LMAO)

Say one thing, and the say another.

Ask a "Real Egyptian" maybe he can help you guys.
But the African-American Negroes have become like the European white man, he'll say any damn thing.

The Egyptians knew who they were, how come you dont, dumb Negro.

Stop acting like your European forefather.
Some of you fools would fit right into that Jim Crowe era.
 
Posted by AswaniAswad (Member # 16742) on :
 
OH Yeah i like this Black Civilization they should of just called it.

LAND OF THE BLACK GODS
 
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by DhulAlQarnain:
So that just defeats your whole lie about everyone coming from the Egyptians, Huh.

Huh? How so? Explain how discussing what Kemet means, and that the Delta area of Egypt didn't exist during the rise of Dynastic Egypt, reaffirmed by Herodotus, has anything to do with claiming to come from Egyptians? LOL

You kid, make no sense!
 
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
 
Great video. Diop is always relevant.
 
Posted by mentu (Member # 14537) on :
 
Good point Mindovermatter!
 
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
 
stupid people, every egyptologist says it is land/soil. [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Narmer Menes (Member # 16122) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Hammer:
stupid people, every egyptologist says it is land/soil. [Roll Eyes]

No, only stupid ones do. REAL Egyptologists who can READ the script know that it is an uncorroborated claim.
 
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
 
No they do not, ignorant black radicals support that view. It will never be mainstream and only on afrocentric web sites will a single soul say anything about it.
 
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
The problem with the whole analysis is that the actual hieroglyphic first rendering of the term had the irrigated land symbol. I have to find the Goetlet article on Km.t, which would coincide with "farmland" as we can see in these other languages:

quote:
Km "farm" - Egyptic
Kaam "farm" - Basa
Kaam "farm" - Doai
eKaam "farm" - Esitako
Kam "farm" - Ngodzin
Kumadin "farm" -Runda

When it has that determinative, it means farm not "black land." When it has the Niw.t symbol, it doesn't mean Black people, it simply means Country, City or Village, nothing to do with Black.

quote:

Km "polis" - Egyptic
Kami "Egypt"
Kom "country, region" - Balue
eKoma "city" - Okam
Kom "rural area" - Ndzem
Komwa "country, region" - Bakweri
-khumbi "nation" - Amazulu
Guma "country, region" - Pende
Gumo "village, city" - Dewoi
Gumi "rural area" -Caga
Gumba "city" -Lingala
Gomdji "land which grows warm and is healthy cultivated"

Again, the Black African reality doesn't support a Black Nation when the terms across Africa simply mean "country, rural area, village, city, nation," etc. with no connotations to color.

The Tshiluba language is a good start to do comparisons to the ancient Egyptian language and the Lingala group of languages.

Egypt is called CiKam <km.t, CiKam CiKulu-or-Bukama buKulu. Kulu is added because CiKam and Bukama are names of villages and cities in the Congo. Think here CIKAMA Mbuji-Mayi or the city Bukama, in the ancient capital of Luba, Katanga.

This would be how you render Km.t plus the people. It is becoming clear that the "determinatives" were actually spoken and the concept of a feminine ending -t as a hoax. The feminine -t suffix is actually a prefix with the sound value of -ts. This -ts became ci- in ciLuba. Thus why it is called ciKam where in conventional writing it would be Kam-ci[ts].

Instead of calling ancient Egypt Ta-Merry, call it by its Tshiluba [ciKam] name: "Land of Righteousness, Justice, Truth [Dya-Malelela; Cyamalela] or [Dya-Malela; Dya-Malanda] "Land of Love, Friendship and Fraternity". The TA is pronounced DYA and MRY is MaLeLA [r > l].

When doing the comparison, look into the African languages for help.
 
Posted by Narmer Menes (Member # 16122) on :
 
Very interesting...

quote:
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
The problem with the whole analysis is that the actual hieroglyphic first rendering of the term had the irrigated land symbol. I have to find the Goetlet article on Km.t, which would coincide with "farmland" as we can see in these other languages:

quote:
Km "farm" - Egyptic
Kaam "farm" - Basa
Kaam "farm" - Doai
eKaam "farm" - Esitako
Kam "farm" - Ngodzin
Kumadin "farm" -Runda

When it has that determinative, it means farm not "black land." When it has the Niw.t symbol, it doesn't mean Black people, it simply means Country, City or Village, nothing to do with Black.

quote:

Km "polis" - Egyptic
Kami "Egypt"
Kom "country, region" - Balue
eKoma "city" - Okam
Kom "rural area" - Ndzem
Komwa "country, region" - Bakweri
-khumbi "nation" - Amazulu
Guma "country, region" - Pende
Gumo "village, city" - Dewoi
Gumi "rural area" -Caga
Gumba "city" -Lingala
Gomdji "land which grows warm and is healthy cultivated"

Again, the Black African reality doesn't support a Black Nation when the terms across Africa simply mean "country, rural area, village, city, nation," etc. with no connotations to color.

The Tshiluba language is a good start to do comparisons to the ancient Egyptian language and the Lingala group of languages.

Egypt is called CiKam <km.t, CiKam CiKulu-or-Bukama buKulu. Kulu is added because CiKam and Bukama are names of villages and cities in the Congo. Think here CIKAMA Mbuji-Mayi or the city Bukama, in the ancient capital of Luba, Katanga.

This would be how you render Km.t plus the people. It is becoming clear that the "determinatives" were actually spoken and the concept of a feminine ending -t as a hoax. The feminine -t suffix is actually a prefix with the sound value of -ts. This -ts became ci- in ciLuba. Thus why it is called ciKam where in conventional writing it would be Kam-ci[ts].

Instead of calling ancient Egypt Ta-Merry, call it by its Tshiluba [ciKam] name: "Land of Righteousness, Justice, Truth [Dya-Malelela; Cyamalela] or [Dya-Malela; Dya-Malanda] "Land of Love, Friendship and Fraternity". The TA is pronounced DYA and MRY is MaLeLA [r > l].

When doing the comparison, look into the African languages for help.


 
Posted by Narmer Menes (Member # 16122) on :
 
So Asar, just to get this straight, your rendering of Km.t(niwt) or t.Km, would be 'Place of agriculture' or 'the farming metropolis'... or something like that?


quote:
Originally posted by Narmer Menes:
Very interesting...

quote:
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
The problem with the whole analysis is that the actual hieroglyphic first rendering of the term had the irrigated land symbol. I have to find the Goetlet article on Km.t, which would coincide with "farmland" as we can see in these other languages:

quote:
Km "farm" - Egyptic
Kaam "farm" - Basa
Kaam "farm" - Doai
eKaam "farm" - Esitako
Kam "farm" - Ngodzin
Kumadin "farm" -Runda

When it has that determinative, it means farm not "black land." When it has the Niw.t symbol, it doesn't mean Black people, it simply means Country, City or Village, nothing to do with Black.

quote:

Km "polis" - Egyptic
Kami "Egypt"
Kom "country, region" - Balue
eKoma "city" - Okam
Kom "rural area" - Ndzem
Komwa "country, region" - Bakweri
-khumbi "nation" - Amazulu
Guma "country, region" - Pende
Gumo "village, city" - Dewoi
Gumi "rural area" -Caga
Gumba "city" -Lingala
Gomdji "land which grows warm and is healthy cultivated"

Again, the Black African reality doesn't support a Black Nation when the terms across Africa simply mean "country, rural area, village, city, nation," etc. with no connotations to color.

The Tshiluba language is a good start to do comparisons to the ancient Egyptian language and the Lingala group of languages.

Egypt is called CiKam <km.t, CiKam CiKulu-or-Bukama buKulu. Kulu is added because CiKam and Bukama are names of villages and cities in the Congo. Think here CIKAMA Mbuji-Mayi or the city Bukama, in the ancient capital of Luba, Katanga.

This would be how you render Km.t plus the people. It is becoming clear that the "determinatives" were actually spoken and the concept of a feminine ending -t as a hoax. The feminine -t suffix is actually a prefix with the sound value of -ts. This -ts became ci- in ciLuba. Thus why it is called ciKam where in conventional writing it would be Kam-ci[ts].

Instead of calling ancient Egypt Ta-Merry, call it by its Tshiluba [ciKam] name: "Land of Righteousness, Justice, Truth [Dya-Malelela; Cyamalela] or [Dya-Malela; Dya-Malanda] "Land of Love, Friendship and Fraternity". The TA is pronounced DYA and MRY is MaLeLA [r > l].

When doing the comparison, look into the African languages for help.



 
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
No, I am saying that there is a rendering, the earliest rendering, of KM.t that has the irrigated land determinative instead of a Niw.t symbol. We can't argue that Km.t in this sense is not referring to land as the definer is clearly an irrigated land symbol (A farm). So it is no surprise that in other related Black African languages we find the same KM or GM root to mean "farm."

The rendering of Km.t with the people determinative is rare. You won't find that much. But non the less, that determinative would render the word, in Tshiluba, BuKam.

There is a rendering in the book of the dead with Km.t with a Neter (Ndele in Tshiluba) symbol. We wouldn't render it "land of the Black gods?" This would be buKama Bukulu or CiKama CiKulu as KULU are the revered elders, the wise priests in the society (or ancestors). KULU is how you would render HRW as the /h/ sound is actually a /ch/ or /kh/ sound that in Lingala becomes a hard /k/ sound. The /e/ is Egytologists guessing and as will be seen in the future, the /w/ ending can be any vowel, but in this case stays faithful. KULU means to be on high, erect, to be of high rank. LU is a common Niger-Congo root to mean "peak, high, apex, sky, etc." This same word HRW/KULU is palatized to become ZULU (the heavens, or spirit of the heavens, the sky) in Common bantu. It is OSORO (spirit of the sky) in Akan.

The rendering of the bearded determinatives as "gods" is a European misconception of the African reality. It is too much to get into here.

When you see Km.t with Niw.t determinative, it is not rendered BLACK COUNTRY as the word with bi-consonantal root KM in the other related Black African languages cannot be found an example of BLACK COUNTRY, just "country, rural area, city, village", in other words and urbanized or area populated with people.

Examining other related languages helps us to clarify ambiguous terms in the language under evaluation. So what I'm getting at is there are many meanings for the root -km- and trying to apply one meaning for all consonant clusters will render your results false. Always look into the related languages for clues.

quote:
Originally posted by Narmer Menes:
[QB] So Asar, just to get this straight, your rendering of Km.t(niwt) or t.Km, would be 'Place of agriculture' or 'the farming metropolis'... or something like that?




 
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
Here is a bit of the Ogden Goelet article I was talking about on KMT: http://books.google.com/books?id=mpYDLXUfIO8C&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=rmt+people+of+kmt&source=bl&ots=uvzvkeq80T&sig=HzXpTdMxMzN0MIhgXgK70Lx-0OI&hl=en&ei=bJLDS66MO8P48Aa_t7G9DQ&sa=X&oi =book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CCUQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=rmt%20people%20of%20kmt&f=false
 
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
No, I am saying that there is a rendering, the earliest rendering, of KM.t that has the irrigated land determinative instead of a Niw.t symbol. We can't argue that Km.t in this sense is not referring to land as the definer is clearly an irrigated land symbol (A farm). So it is no surprise that in other related Black African languages we find the same KM or GM root to mean "farm."

The rendering of Km.t with the people determinative is rare. You won't find that much. But non the less, that determinative would render the word, in Tshiluba, BuKam.

There is a rendering in the book of the dead with Km.t with a Neter (Ndele in Tshiluba) symbol. We wouldn't render it "land of the Black gods?" This would be buKama Bukulu or CiKama CiKulu as KULU are the revered elders, the wise priests in the society (or ancestors). KULU is how you would render HRW as the /h/ sound is actually a /ch/ or /kh/ sound that in Lingala becomes a hard /k/ sound. The /e/ is Egytologists guessing and as will be seen in the future, the /w/ ending can be any vowel, but in this case stays faithful. KULU means to be on high, erect, to be of high rank. LU is a common Niger-Congo root to mean "peak, high, apex, sky, etc." This same word HRW/KULU is palatized to become ZULU (the heavens, or spirit of the heavens, the sky) in Common bantu. It is OSORO (spirit of the sky) in Akan.

The rendering of the bearded determinatives as "gods" is a European misconception of the African reality. It is too much to get into here.

When you see Km.t with Niw.t determinative, it is not rendered BLACK COUNTRY as the word with bi-consonantal root KM in the other related Black African languages cannot be found an example of BLACK COUNTRY, just "country, rural area, city, village", in other words and urbanized or area populated with people.

Examining other related languages helps us to clarify ambiguous terms in the language under evaluation. So what I'm getting at is there are many meanings for the root -km- and trying to apply one meaning for all consonant clusters will render your results false. Always look into the related languages for clues.

quote:
Originally posted by Narmer Menes:
[QB] So Asar, just to get this straight, your rendering of Km.t(niwt) or t.Km, would be 'Place of agriculture' or 'the farming metropolis'... or something like that?




Actually that rendering of KM.t being a reference to irrigated land is something mentioned in the worterbuch dictionary of Ancient Egyptian grammar.

Unfortunately I doubt very seriously that it has the implication that you think it does. Firstly the irrigated land determinative is Ta as in Tawy and is not pronounced as KM.T.

Here is the section of the Worterbuch with the reference in it:

http://www.egyptology.ru/lang/Wb/Wb-k.pdf
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Weeellll??? linguistics is not my thing but it sounds like guy, Asar, is making a case that KMT does NOT mean black nation/people, but black soil and some egyptologist suggest.


Doug's come back was. . . ."check out the dictionary"

Narmer?. . ." [Embarrassed] "

Any other takers?


Many are reading guys. Put this to bed. Pun intended.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
KM itself simply means
1) black
2) complete or ultimate.

Without a determinative that's all it means.

I don't understand how various applications
of KM were understood in speech without the
appended glyphs like 't' or 'tyw' or any of
the determinitives being pronounced.

Following will be WB entries for KM.t
 
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
You're not giving me any analysis. Let's say that it is rendered -ta, the word would still be Km.t ta(land) which means, if we were to accept your conclusion of KM meaning "black", that KM.t [N23] means THE BLACK LAND. You in essence demonstrate for the Eurocentrists that they are indeed correct.

What is undeniable is the earliest usage of the term has the cultivated land/irrigated land determinative and that is clearly an agricultural symbol.

As a linguistical method, when a term is obscure, you look for the terminology in related languages, and those in which the primary culture under analysis has had interactions with so we can see if there is any exchanging of lexical items: to see if the term has been "loaned."

After conducting this method of analysis, Oscar PFOUMA has demonstrated that this can't be the case. KM is a common root and the roots that best fit the "determinatives" are farmland or a polity (country, nation, village, etc.) Black in reference to the people makes no sense when they are the sovereign rulers of the nation among other Black nations at the time.

I've been studying this issue for years and have yet to come across ANY ancient Egyptian texts that discuss ANYthing in regards to how they feel about their Black skins. All people refer to is Kantanga's (Akhenanten's) hymm when he discusses Aten creating different ethnic groups, but no analysis from the buKame themselves in regarding any philosophy in regards their Black skins.

I am not convinced by anyone's, including Diop's, claim that ciKam (km.t) means Black Nation in regards to black people. The comparative evidence is clear and until anyone provides any greater evidence, I will have to go with my conclusions. I posted the Ogden Goelet article and I suggest everyone read it and build from that knowledge.


quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

Actually that rendering of KM.t being a reference to irrigated land is something mentioned in the worterbuch dictionary of Ancient Egyptian grammar.

Unfortunately I doubt very seriously that it has the implication that you think it does. Firstly the irrigated land determinative is Ta as in Tawy and is not pronounced as KM.T.

Here is the section of the Worterbuch with the reference in it:

http://www.egyptology.ru/lang/Wb/Wb-k.pdf
[/QUOTE]
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
WB v5 p122
 -

WB v5 p125
 -
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
WB v5 p126-127

 -
 -
 -
 -
 -
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
WB v5 p128

 -
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Long ago I asked for examples of KM
used with determinatives for land.
I did so knowing that none of the
black land/soil proponents knew how
to read hieroglyphics and would fail
to produce definitive support.

I am reticent to do what I am about
to do because now those proponents
will have a source to work with but
the matter at hand dictates I proceed.

This is the oldest usage of KM.t as a
name for Egypt/Egyptians and with it is
a determinative for land. Also notice
what it juxtaposes. I don't have the full
context so not really sure if this refers
to a polity or just the literal ground.

 -

AEs were fully capable of prefixing glyphs
for land to KM.t and did so as seen here.

 -

In the above two examples, both signifying
land of the Black community, we find two
different glyphs for land use simultaneously.
The 't' suffix has nothing to do with ta as
ta plainly preceeds KM.t.[nwt] in each phrase.
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
I have to agree with this Asar guy. Black nation relating to skin among a region of black people makes no sense.

But whom am I. Not a linguist surely. But I will read on, pardon the interuption.

Great topic this should be on ESR.


quote:
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:

. . . Black in reference to the people makes no sense when they are the sovereign rulers of the nation among other Black nations at the time. . . . .

I've been studying this issue for years and have yet to come across ANY ancient Egyptian texts that discuss ANYthing in regards to how they feel about their Black skins. .


One more thing. I just uploaded a pic of Rameses smiting Asiatics on ESR, from Britannica. Blow up the pic it is amazing. Anways - Rameses is of the same color as the Asiatics but their feature is "typical" hook nose. If fact some of the Asiatics look literally black. But have long straight hair and beard. So even the Asiatics back then are within the classification of black.. . .according to pic.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
By the time KM.t[nwt] is in use the AEs
were well aware of who surrounded them.

To their east were a generally lighter people.
To their south were an even darker people.
To their west were the lightests of peoples.

The above is all considering those eligible
for Osirian Resurrection as considered in
the Book of Gates.

In the book of gates there are four general folk
1) Romitu
2) Aamu
3) Nehesu
4) Tjemehu

These four are lumped into two main groups
by Hor (Heru) who is shepherding the Cattle
of Ra. The two main groups are
1) Blacks
2) Reds

Romitu and Nehesu are listed as blacks.
Aamw and Temehu are listed as reds.

In the text black and red refer to communities
not to the ground. It is dead people being
revived in the afterlife to face judgement
not inundated land or desert land about
to be weighed in the balance.
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
You answered my follow up question . . . I think.

When was the name first used? If it was in the beginning ie 1st Dynasty when all(or most) of their neighbors were black then Kemet ie Black Nation does not fit the explanation.

The Plate of Narmer(recently uploaded to ESR) also has Asiatics being trampled on. Seems like AE had serious beef with the Asiatics. LOL.

But seriously, what does "by the time" mean. Since Asiatics were there by the first Dynasty?

In other words when did AE start calling themselves . . .Kmt


Just being the advocate. Getting the facts and relevance
 
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
Again, read the article in this link: http://books.google.com/books?id=mpYDLXUfIO8C&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=rmt+people+of+kmt&source=bl&ots=uvzvkeq80T&sig=HzXpTdMxMzN0MIhgXgK70Lx-0OI&hl=en&ei=bJLDS66MO8P48Aa_t7G9DQ&sa=X&oi =book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CCUQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=rmt%20people%20of%20kmt&f=false

It's earliest use was in the 11th dynasty. Egypt didn't have a name for 10 dynasty. It was only considered the interior (Hnw).
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
The earliest use of KM.t supposedly refering to
Egypt/Egyptians as a country or people is on an
inscription from Denderah going back to the 6th
Dynasty of the Old Kingdom according to the two
Wörterbuch authors Erman and Grapow.

.

@Asar

I read and critiqued the late Mr. Goelet years ago.

This topic of the meaning of KM has been done to
death on this forum year after year since 2004.

Some of those threads are in lockdown.
Some of those threads are still available.


quote:
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
Again, read the article in this link: http://books.google.com/books?id=mpYDLXUfIO8C&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=rmt+people+of+kmt&source=bl&ots=uvzvkeq80T&sig=HzXpTdMxMzN0MIhgXgK70Lx-0OI&hl=en&ei=bJLDS66MO8P48Aa_t7G9DQ&sa=X&oi =book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CCUQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=rmt%20people%20of%20kmt&f=false

It's earliest use was in the 11th dynasty. Egypt didn't have a name for 10 dynasty. It was only considered the interior (Hnw).


 
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
The problem with the red and black analysis is that in Africa, certain people we in the United States would simply consider "blacks," on the continent they would consider them reds: Fula, Masai, Taureg, etc. By our account, a lot of the Egyptian paintings would have "red" Egyptians while the "true blacks" would be the Nkeshi, Nkesh, Nkweshi (Nhsy).

If km means "black" in regards to skin color, we need something else to verify further this conclusion. In Kenya there is a small confederation of nine villages, called Mji Kenda. There is a group within this confederation called KAUMA. They all belong to a subgroup of families that lived in a town called Mutzi Muiro - "The Black Town."

Now all of these are the pitch blackest individuals in East Africa, yet the town is called The Black Town among nothing but Black people. It can't refer to the skin. There is an Oromo speaking group called CHEMAI which would coincide with the Greek rendering.

It is very complex and I think that examining the other African related languages will better help us here because our notions of race confuses the argument. I think, at this moment, that the different determinatives indicated different words with the same root.

Here are the Libu people, those considered "reds" by the Egyptians:

 -
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
The internal black/red designations is not an
unknown. Again, it's something I explained
here and on TNV years ago. A Fulani is not
a red in the same sense that a Frenchman is.

===

So you reject the Book of Gates passage where
AEs label themselves and Nehesu as members of
KM.t[nwt]?

In that sacred afterlife assuring text the
DSHR.t[nwt] are considered of different
divine genesis and under different divine
protection.

AE's considered the blacks as related
They didn't see themselves related to the reds.

Anyone looking at any painting of BG4:5s30
can see the obvious skin colour difference.
Both sets of reds are much lighter than the
AEs no matter whose tomb painting is viewed.
In one tomb painting the AEs are depicted
the exact same greybrown complexion as the
Nehesu.

It's not my job to convince or force
agreement. The facts have been laid out.
Whether one allows or discards them is
up to oneself.
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Those are not the Libu people the AEs labeled red.
Those are modern people with a confusing caption
misidentifying them.

I begin to doubt if there's any familiarity with
AE representaions of the Herd of Ra since Temehu
in them are nearly always lighter than the Aamw
and nowhere near the colour of the moderns in the
pic below.


quote:
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:



Here are the Libu people, those considered "reds" by the Egyptians:

 -


 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
That 2nd point should end the discussion. You see/hear the "afrocentric" experts talking about the "determinative". blah blah blah.

But if AE referred themselves and Nehesu, in the Book of Gates, as KMt. Then OBVIOUSLY they are NOT talking about land or soil ie Kmt. They are talking about a people.

Thank you for that Sage.

Plus - It proves that AE considered Nehesu of the same kind as themselves. END OF DEBATE.


quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:


1. A Fulani is not a red in the same sense that a Frenchman is.

2. the Book of Gates passage where
AEs label themselves and Nehesu as members of
KM.t[nwt]?

3. In that sacred afterlife assuring text the
DSHR.t[nwt] are considered of different
divine genesis and under different divine
protection.

AE's considered the blacks as related
They didn't see themselves related to the reds.


4. In one tomb painting the AEs are depicted
the exact same greybrown complexion as the
Nehesu.

* * * * *It's not my job to convince or force
agreement. The facts have been laid out.
Whether one allows or discards them is
up to oneself.* * * * *


 
Posted by mentu (Member # 14537) on :
 
altakruli

Is this the Ogden Goelet who was defeated here,on this very topic that he ended up chasing flamingos?
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Oh. . . . One last thing (walking away -Columbo).

What passage in the Book of Gates?


And permission to post some of this to ESR. Great discussion for those serious about understanding the word, Kmt.
 
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
Here again is how linguistics sheds light on this situation. I have many times before demonstrated Egyptian and Yoruba correspondences. Yoruba has the word KMT in its lexicon. The correspondences are as follows:

Egyptic: km/kmt = black
Yoruba: agin, ogan, egan = black

Egyptic: km = farm, black land/soil
Yoruba: egan = black soil/fertile soil

Here (Egypt) /k/ > (Yoruba) /g/
/m/ > /n/

The Egyptian name 3bjw (Abju/Abydos) indicated the place in the wilderness of the mountain desert on both sides of "the gift of the nile" where Asar (Ashili in ciLuba/Isale in Yoruba/Sheol in Hebrew) the god of the dead lived as Lord of the desolate places which was named "ju" to the Egyptians.

In Yoruba "iju" means jungle" where the farmer had not the threat of desert to contend with (just weeds to deal with). Yoruba "iju" jungle is cognate with Egyptian "ju" mountain and both are really hinting at a primary semantic connotation of the root "wilderness." They are ideophonic variants.

In Egypt the desert is the inhospitable wilderness and to the Yoruba (for farmers) the dark jungle (agin-ju) is the inhospitable wilderness.

The Yoruba "egan" (black/fertile soil) became the Hebrew "gan" (garden) in the garden of Eden. Hebrew gan is Arabic "janna": the garden of gardens is al-janna. Yoruba Muslim vocabulary is "alujonna" = paradise.

Hebrew /g/ = Arabic /j/ = Yoruba /g/ correspondences. Genesis 13:10 says, "Lot lifted up his eyes and saw all the kikkar of the Jordan that it was well watered...like the "gan" of YHWH, like the land of Egypt as you come to Soar."

Could km-t also mean "paradise?" It is clear that no matter where we go in Africa km/gm/gn/jn means black soil, farm/fertile land, cultivated land, garden, and we can add paradise. There are no indications of people in regards to skin color and that's the reality. Check the related languages. The earliest usages are clear: they deal with land. Thus why the N23 determinative was used.

I need to do some more investigation to see if dshr-t is in fact a dialectical variant of two or more terms agglutinated. The beginning /d/ sound could actualy be a /dj/ sound which would correspond to the other variant in Egyptian /ju/ for "wilderness." So it may be plausible, for now, to assume something like: d-shr-t. Will be looking into a -shr- root soon.
 
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
Based on this research, I am also contemplating if Kongo is modern-day KMT. In the Egyptian texts there is a rendering of KM that suggests the meaning of "god" (the unknowable). Budge in his Book of the Dead Dictionary has a rendering of the place-name KMT with a "god/deity/ntr" determinative.

It is said that the word Kongo is a word, on one level, meaning God. It also means "forest" as Dr. Fu-Kiau mentions in African Cosmology of the Bantu Kongo. We know Kikongo and Yoruba are related languages based on being in the Niger-Congo family.

As demonstrated above, Egan is the Yoruba word for Egyptian KM-t. A word for farm in the Tshiluba language (from which Kikongo derived) is called KANGA.

Both roots for Kongo and Kanga is -kn- with the -go/-ga suffix. The word kan-ga coincides with Egyptian km (farm) and Yoruba egan (-g-n)fertile soil. Since Kongo means, on one level, forests, it would coincide as well with the Yoruba "aginju" (agin-iju) [dark jungle].

Kon-go (k-n-g)
Agin-ju (g-n-j)

All common sound shifts. If this pans out to be right, then Kongo is the modern name for KMT.
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
I thought the class was over!
 
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
I thought the class was over!

It was indeed, before this topic here was even
posted:
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
 -

...unless, I suppose someone will suggest that
Kmemou means "farmers"!
[Big Grin]
 
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
So now address Km.t with the Mfumu/bukulu/ndele (ntr) determinative in the Rau Nu Prt Hrw and explain it using your logic.
 
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
But if Black was the sacred color amongst Kemites ie the color of perfection then why not apply that to themselves and their land..black is beautiful as per us moderns(AAs)..black is secred as per the Kemites.
 
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
This is a misconception of the historical record. Because contrary to popular African American belief, red and white is also sacred colors in African systems (thus White-upper Egypt, Red-lower Egyp). Red and White are usually associated with ancestors and initiation respectively. Although there are negative connotations of red in Egyptian literature, those same terms demonstrate positive affirmations of the same terms (i.e. dshr).

The issue of whether black, red, white, green, etc. are sacred colors are irrelevant. The glyphs are precise and irregardless of the glyphs the related African languages speak for themselves. Unless one wants to argue that KMT is an independent innovation in the Egyptian language, one has no argument.

The earliest uses demonstrated by two people on this forum from different sources clearly demonstrate that LAND is the meaning, not people. From my memory I think the charge against Diop was that the KMT with the people determinative was only used once or twice in the remaining records, with the vast majority being kmt niw.t.

Unless one is prepared to dismiss the comparative method, one cannot justify Black people for KMT, but cultivated land/farm or country, nation, city or village. That's the reality in the other related languages.

Here is an example of some meaning of sacred colors in African cosmogony and philosophy in Kikongo (a related language to kikami/Egyptian)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ5Cz4VPaG0
 
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Well yes Kikongo agrees with the Kemmau in that the color Black is of resurrection(life/of the living) see the resurrected pharaoh TutankAmun
 -

The good things were Black the bad were Red..it is not so difficult for me to understand that they would apply the color onto themselves and their land.. Ta Mari the"good"land the "Black"land vs the "Red"land the desert bad lands..while they are the "good people" the black people vs the bad people the red ones..like Seth.

And they were not the only ones in ancient times to recognized themselves as Blacks...the Sumerians sag-ga (The black headed ones ) and maybe some Indians did the same see Marco Polo.

And they did this while surrounded by other people who looked no different than themselves and they weren't being racial chauvinist..atleast I don't think so.
 
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
The limitations in your analysis is that in the ancient Egyptian records, the color red is also seen with reverence. People only discuss red in regards to negative but totally forget it in the positive. I will post the ancient Egyptian terminology in a bit.

I also posted the link to demonstrate that Black is not the only sacred color in Africa. ALL African spiritual systems, in their practices and ceremonies, wear white. When dealing with ancestors, they usually utilize the colors of Red or White and would not use Black.

The metaphor of Black deals with a common theme across Africa with blackness being the source, the generative powers of the universe from which things manifest. Thus why ALL over Africa, as I have demonstrated, you see the association of the same root for Black with the same root for CULTIVATED LAND/SOIL/FARM.

There is a KMT as well that stands for only upper egypt. Is that place Blacker than all spots in the Black land? What about Km Wr, the lake? Is it a Black lake? More to come.
 
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
The terms I am typing consist of their transliteratin + meaning + Gardiner sign list of characters that make up the term.

quote:

TmHy red ochre [ noun - min. ] U33 - G17 - V28 - M17 - M17 - N33 - Z2
TmHw Libyans [ noun ] U33 - G17 - V28 - M17 - T14 - A1 - B1 - Z2
tmyw bad mannered people [ plural noun ] X1 - U15 - D35 - G17 - M17 - G43 - D77 - D77 - D77
tmyw type of bad people, bad mannered people [ plural noun ] X1 - U15 - G17 - M17 - M17 - Z7 - A14 - Z3

^^ Notice the similarities in the terms above. Also note that the same word for Libyans is the same word for Red Ochre.


quote:

TA SETI

sty ochre (red, yellow ?) [ noun - min. ] J32 - X1 - X1 - N33 - Z2
sty ochre (red, yellow ?) [ noun - min. ] J32 - X1 - Z4 - N33 - Z2
sty Nubian mineral (ochre ?) [ noun - min. ] J32 - X1 - Z4 - N33 - Z2

sty Nubia [ noun - loc. ] J32 - X1 - Z8

Notice that the word for Ta-Sty is also the same word for a red or yellow ochre....again a colored mineral. We will continue.

quote:

km black [ adjective ] I6 - G17 - Y1V

km completion, profit, duty [ noun ] I6 - G17 - Y1V

kmw (a mineral) [ noun - min. ] I6 - G17 - Z7 - N33 - Z2

kmt Egyptians [ collective noun ] I6 - X1 - A1 - B1 - Z2

kmt the Black Land, Egypt [ noun - loc. ] I6 - X1 - O49

kmt the Black Land, Egypt [ noun - loc. ] I6 - X1 - O49 - X1

kmt large (granite) jar, pot [ noun - furn. ] I6 - X1 - W24 - Z1

Are we noticing a pattern here? Each name for each region coincides with the name for a mineral or ochre. All of these things associated with the land, not the people there.

In regards to Red and the Dsrt also being a sacred place, I quote the following:

quote:

tA Dsr the Sacred Land (necropolis) [ noun ] N16 - N21 - Z1 - D45 - D21 - N25

xt dSr red wood [ noun - min. ] M3 - X1 - Z1 - D46 - N37 - D21 - Z5 - N33 - Z2

pr dSr Red House (Treasury of Lower Egypt) [ noun - arch. ] O1 - G27
at Dsrt the Holy Chamber (the celestial Hall of judgement) [ noun - arch. ] D36 - X1 - O1 - D45 - D21 - X1 - Y1
Dsrt Deir el Bahri [ noun - loc. ] D45 - D21 - E23 - O1

Dsrt Deir el Bahri [ noun - loc. ] D45 - D21 - G43 - N25

Dsrw holy place [ noun ] D45 - D21 - G43 - O1

Dsr holy, sacred [ adjective ] D45 - D21 - G7

Dsrt (a type of plant) [ noun - flora ] D45 - D21 - X1 - M2

Dsrt Deir el Bahri [ noun - loc. ] D45 - D21 - X1 - N25

Dsrt holy ground, sacred area [ noun ] D45 - D21 - X1 - N25

Dsrt imntt the Western Holy Place (Medinet Habu) [ noun - loc. ] D45 - D21 - X1 - R14 - X1 - X1

Dsr glorious [ adjective ] D45 - D21 - X1 - Y1 - A40

Dsrt holy ground, sacred area [ noun ] D45 - D21 - X1 - Z4 - X1 - N25

Dsr Dsrw Holy of Holies (Temple of Deir el Bahri) [ noun - arch. ] D45 - D45 - Z3

Dsrw sanctity [ noun ] D45 - G43

Dsrt table of offerings, sideboard [ noun - furn. ] D45 - X1 - R3P

Dsrt table of offerings, sideboard [ noun - furn. ] D45 - X1 - R3Q

Dsr holy, sacred [ adjective ] D45 - Y1

dSrt blood [ noun - bod. ] D46 - N37 - D21 - G27 - X1 - N33A

dSrw blood [ noun - bod. ] D46 - N37 - D21 - G43 - G27

dSrt the Red Land, desert [ noun - loc. ] D46 - N37 - D21 - X1 - G27 - N25

dSrt the Red Land, desert [ noun - loc. ] D46 - N37 - D21 - X1 - N25

dSrt the Red Land, desert [ noun - loc. ] D46 - N37 - D21 - X1 - O49

dSrt fire, flame [ noun ] D46 - N37 - D21 - X1 - Q7

dSrt the Red Crown [ noun - clo. ] D46 - N37 - D21 - X1 - S3

dSrt the Red Crown [ noun - clo. ] D46 - N37 - D21 - X1 - Z5

dSrt red pot [ noun - furn. ] D46 - N37 - D21 - X1 - Z5
dSr red, reddening [ adjective + noun ] D46 - N37 - D21 - Z5

As we can see here the concept of Black being sacred exclusively in Egypt doesn't hold weight. The evidence supports the notion that the regions are thus named based on mineral wealth they could exploit for religious or commercial reasons.

What made Egypt proper so special is that you could cultivate FOOD there; thus why in the Biblical narrative (one already cited) Joseph and his family found solice in Egypt because where they were originally there was no FOOD. Egypt was known as a place one could EAT because of the FERTILE SOUL (Km, Egan, Kanu -CiLuba). There were also mines in which they exploited and it was also the home of metallurgy (Black smithing).

No matter where we go, the Black people argument falls short of truth and the evidence that KMT refers to land is supported by an abundance of evidence.

If there is any association, which I have yet to see, it is secondary.
 
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
It should also be noted that in the ciLuba language, a language branch of old Egyptian, the word -KAMA means LOVE. Could KM.t (ciKam) simply be another rendering of "the beloved land" (Ta-Meri, Dya Melela in ciLuba)?
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Well, let's hope the discussion never ends.
Only by discusion can new paradigms come to
the fore and lead to an knowledge increase
all can share.

quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
That 2nd point should end the discussion. You see/hear the "afrocentric" experts talking about the "determinative". blah blah blah.

But if AE referred themselves and Nehesu, in the Book of Gates, as KMt. Then OBVIOUSLY they are NOT talking about land or soil ie Kmt. They are talking about a people.

Thank you for that Sage.

Plus - It proves that AE considered Nehesu of the same kind as themselves. END OF DEBATE.


quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:


1. A Fulani is not a red in the same sense that a Frenchman is.

2. the Book of Gates passage where
AEs label themselves and Nehesu as members of
KM.t[nwt]?

3. In that sacred afterlife assuring text the
DSHR.t[nwt] are considered of different
divine genesis and under different divine
protection.

AE's considered the blacks as related
They didn't see themselves related to the reds.


4. In one tomb painting the AEs are depicted
the exact same greybrown complexion as the
Nehesu.

* * * * *It's not my job to convince or force
agreement. The facts have been laid out.
Whether one allows or discards them is
up to oneself.* * * * *



 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
I presume the selfsame one and only.

quote:
Originally posted by mentu:
altakruli

Is this the Ogden Goelet who was defeated here,on this very topic that he ended up chasing flamingos?


 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Book of Gates
Gate of Teka Hra
vignette (scene) 30

It's that painting mistakenly called the AE
'Table of Nations.' There's an ESR thread on
it already, I just haven't had time to go and
recompose some filler for it. But, among other
old ES AE&E threads, see

So Ancient Egyptians didn't consider the mediterranean/red sea coasts as Egyptian

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=004917#000026


The reddish and yellowish color scheme on Egyptian monuments


quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Oh. . . . One last thing (walking away -Columbo).

What passage in the Book of Gates?


And permission to post some of this to ESR. Great discussion for those serious about understanding the word, Kmt.


 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
KM can be applied to anything that is considered
complete or the ultimate and such like concepts.

KM can be applied to anything that can be black.

You do see that KM.t.[nwt] is only one KM word in
the listing of KM.t words from Erman & Grapow. Did
you miss the posting of all those hieroglyphics?

Now KM is only the spelling using one ideogram
(a charcoal or crocodile scales, both of those
objects are black in color).

The sound 'kem' can be spelled k-m using two
alphabetic glyphs. I didn't post any of those.

In the case of either spelling KM.t or k-m.t means
black or complete/ultimate in and of itself. We can
only know what it is that is complete/ultimate or
black by the determinative in association with it.

Thus KM.t cannot mean black community without nwt.
KM.t cannot mean black ground without a determinative
for ground/land/soil/dirt/silt/etc. used with it.

quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
But if Black was the sacred color amongst Kemites ie the color of perfection then why not apply that to themselves and their land..black is beautiful as per us moderns(AAs)..black is secred as per the Kemites.


 
Posted by blackman (Member # 1807) on :
 
The defintion of KM (Kem/Kam/Ham) have been discussed here plenty of times and it is tied to the people, not the soil/land.

Even the Bible makes reference to the people of the land of Ham. It doesn't make sense to say land of soil/land.

Example 1:
1Chron:4:40: And they found fat pasture and good, and the land was wide, and quiet, and peaceable; for they of Ham had dwelt there of old.

Here they speak of people of Ham. Ham is the son of Noah, not soil/land. It is speaking of the descendants of Ham. Ham means black/burnt.


Example 2:
Ps:78:51: And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:

Again, tabernacles are a place of worship for people, not soil or land. Soil or land doesn't worship. People do.


Example 3:
Ps:105:23: Israel also came into Egypt; and Jacob sojourned in the land of Ham.

Doesn't make sense to say the land of land. Again, it is a group of people.
 
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
Your argument is weak because we know KM is used in a national sense to represent the country. So saying people of Kmt doesn't mean that the country was named after the SKIN of the people who occupy the territory. This is the crux of the matter and you have failed to demonstrate that.

There is a city in KMT called KM WR. Is this city composed of people who are Blacker than everyone else in KMT? What about the KM WR lake? Is the lake literally Black? There is a deity by the name of KMKM. Is this god Blacker than all the other Gods?

What evidence from other related African languages do yo have to counter the points made throughout this discussion? Again, KMT is not an innovation in Egyptian language. It would exist outside of its language in neighboring languages.

quote:
Originally posted by blackman:
The defintion of KM (Kem/Kam/Ham) have been discussed here plenty of times and it is tied to the people, not the soil/land.

Even the Bible makes reference to the people of the land of Ham. It doesn't make sense to say land of soil/land.

Example 1:
1Chron:4:40: And they found fat pasture and good, and the land was wide, and quiet, and peaceable; for they of Ham had dwelt there of old.

Here they speak of people of Ham. Ham is the son of Noah, not soil/land. It is speaking of the descendants of Ham. Ham means black/burnt.


Example 2:
Ps:78:51: And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:

Again, tabernacles are a place of worship for people, not soil or land. Soil or land doesn't worship. People do.


Example 3:
Ps:105:23: Israel also came into Egypt; and Jacob sojourned in the land of Ham.

Doesn't make sense to say the land of land. Again, it is a group of people.


 
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
There is a city in KMT called KM WR. Is this city composed of people who are Blacker than everyone else in KMT?

Couldn't they maybe be say ... "greater" (i.e. WR) than others Km in Kmt?

quote:
What about the KM WR lake? Is the lake literally Black? There is a deity by the name of KMKM. Is this god Blacker than all the other Gods?
Ok here i see your point: ^ ... or more farmy ... i see your point.

It makes sense to me that the word for ultimate when applied to land would mean good land or farming land AND that that same word is literally the same word for black.

Also i was under the impression the same word could mean "finished" as in ended as in death and so ... that to me wouldn't imply an exclusive connection to farming or rich soil for the word black/ultimate.
 
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
The problem is because "A" root k-m means "black", people are trying to use that meaning for ALL instances of the term. It is in situations like this that one must look into other African languages to see the possible alternatives and synonyms for the terms.

It's an issue of method. Anyone claiming an exclusive "black" meaning for the consonant cluster of KM is methodoligically weak.

It is clear that where there is a Niw.t determinative that it is speaking about a "polis", an urban place with people native to Egypt. So you have to ask yourself, "Is there any other evidence in other Black African languages with the root k-m to mean an urbanized area or can be used to represent a national political entity?"

How could you prove this case? You examine many African languages believed to be related to the one in which the word is obscure. A cognate must stand on "two legs." This means its form/shape (morphology) and its meaning must be the same or similar. These are the two "Feet" from which a cognate is made.

In Egyptian the determinatives are precise and tell us clearly what is being conveyed. Not only that, syntax and context will let us know what is being conveyed as well in the ancient Egyptian language. So if the Niw.t symbol is used to represent a village, city or country, then our term under examination must match that as well. We verify our hypothesis by examining the other related languages and seeing if we find matches.

Pfouma has done this for us:

quote:

Km "polis" - Egyptic
Kami "Egypt"
Kom "country, region" - Balue
eKoma "city" - Okam
Kom "rural area" - Ndzem
Komwa "country, region" - Bakweri
-khumbi "nation" - Amazulu
Guma "country, region" - Pende
Gumo "village, city" - Dewoi
Gumi "rural area" -Caga
Gumba "city" -Lingala
Gomdji "land which grows warm and is healthy cultivated" - Galla

As we see here, clear as day, the same root k-m (g-m, k > g) confirms our hypothesis. There is no need to interpret KM.t as "black nation" or "black country" when the linguistic evidence indicates in the other related languages that there is no color indication and that KM by itself simply means "country, land, rural area, city, village, etc.

It also has the N23 "cultivated land" determinative. By the same method we confirm its usage in regards to farm:

quote:

Km "farm" - Egyptic
Kaam "farm" - Basa
Kaam "farm" - Doai
eKaam "farm" - Esitako
Kam "farm" - Ngodzin
Kumadin "farm" -Runda

Again, the evidence is pointing out that KM cannot be used to represent the color Black only, or even "to end" or "complete." I think that KM, in regards to "complete" can be translated as ALL. If true, then KM Niw.t would simply mean "entire nation."

KM is used differently for different situations. In regards to farming, the color black and soil are related. I demonstrated this, yet again, with other related languages of Egyptian.

quote:

Here again is how linguistics sheds light on this situation. I have many times before demonstrated Egyptian and Yoruba correspondences. Yoruba has the word KMT in its lexicon. The correspondences are as follows:

Egyptic: km/kmt = black
Yoruba: agin, ogan, egan = black

Egyptic: km = farm, black land/soil
Yoruba: egan = black soil/fertile soil

Here (Egypt) /k/ > (Yoruba) /g/
/m/ > /n/

The Egyptian name 3bjw (Abju/Abydos) indicated the place in the wilderness of the mountain desert on both sides of "the gift of the nile" where Asar (Ashili in ciLuba/Isale in Yoruba/Sheol in Hebrew) the god of the dead lived as Lord of the desolate places which was named "ju" to the Egyptians.

In Yoruba "iju" means jungle" where the farmer had not the threat of desert to contend with (just weeds to deal with). Yoruba "iju" jungle is cognate with Egyptian "ju" mountain and both are really hinting at a primary semantic connotation of the root "wilderness." They are ideophonic variants.

In Egypt the desert is the inhospitable wilderness and to the Yoruba (for farmers) the dark jungle (agin-ju) is the inhospitable wilderness.

The Yoruba "egan" (black/fertile soil) became the Hebrew "gan" (garden) in the garden of Eden. Hebrew gan is Arabic "janna": the garden of gardens is al-janna. Yoruba Muslim vocabulary is "alujonna" = paradise.

Hebrew /g/ = Arabic /j/ = Yoruba /g/ correspondences. Genesis 13:10 says, "Lot lifted up his eyes and saw all the kikkar of the Jordan that it was well watered...like the "gan" of YHWH, like the land of Egypt as you come to Soar."

Could km-t also mean "paradise?" It is clear that no matter where we go in Africa km/gm/gn/jn means black soil, farm/fertile land, cultivated land, garden, and we can add paradise. There are no indications of people in regards to skin color and that's the reality. Check the related languages. The earliest usages are clear: they deal with land. Thus why the N23 determinative was used.

I need to do some more investigation to see if dshr-t is in fact a dialectical variant of two or more terms agglutinated. The beginning /d/ sound could actualy be a /dj/ sound which would correspond to the other variant in Egyptian /ju/ for "wilderness." So it may be plausible, for now, to assume something like: d-shr-t. Will be looking into a -shr- root soon.

The black skin hypothesis doesn't have merit.
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
^^ got you.

quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Book of Gates
Gate of Teka Hra
vignette (scene) 30

It's that painting mistakenly called the AE
'Table of Nations.' There's an ESR thread on
it already, I just haven't had time to go and
recompose some filler for it. But, among other
old ES AE&E threads, see

So Ancient Egyptians didn't consider the mediterranean/red sea coasts as Egyptian

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=004917#000026


The reddish and yellowish color scheme on Egyptian monuments


quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Oh. . . . One last thing (walking away -Columbo).

What passage in the Book of Gates?


And permission to post some of this to ESR. Great discussion for those serious about understanding the word, Kmt.



 
Posted by blackman (Member # 1807) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
Your argument is weak because we know KM is used in a national sense to represent the country. So saying people of Kmt doesn't mean that the country was named after the SKIN of the people who occupy the territory. This is the crux of the matter and you have failed to demonstrate that.

Asar Imhotep,
On page one of this thread you quote KM = farm. We know KM -> Kem/Kam/Ham is black.
The bible references I used earlier is related to Ham. Ham is known to be the Father of black people/nations. The Bible uses other references to the land of other people (Canaan and Edom as examples). The land is always in reference to the people or decendants of the land, not the soil/land.

Since Ham is known to be the Father of Blacks it makes sense that the land of Ham is the land of Blacks.
 
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
No you keep trying to make the term KM to mean black exlusively. Have you read an Egytian dictionary? Have you seen the over 30 variations of the root KM?

Your logic doesn't make sense as we would have to assume that Canaan and Punt are designated colors as well. When the Bible states that Jesus had feet unto fine brass as it has been burnt in a furnace (black), and his lineage is traced through Shem (who also had to be black), what is your logic for this?

He is called HAM because the nation was called CHAM, not because they were Black people. You still haven't provided any suitable counter measure (if any) for the linguistic evidence I cited. Use linguistics to refute what I've said, not conjecture from myth.
 
Posted by blackman (Member # 1807) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:

Your logic doesn't make sense as we would have to assume that Canaan and Punt are designated colors as well.

You keep trying to tie my definition to color and I tie my definition to people that happen to be black. Canaan and Put is not another color, but a group/nation of people that happen to be black at that time. They were the children of Ham.

quote:
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:

When the Bible states that Jesus had feet unto fine brass as it has been burnt in a furnace (black), and his lineage is traced through Shem (who also had to be black), what is your logic for this?

The Hebrews were in Kemet for 400 years. The would have some Hamitic/Black blood.

Genesis 50:11 The Canaanites confused the Hebrews for Egyptians as Joseph buries his father Jacob.
Exodus 2:19 Moses wife to be thinks he is an Egyptian.

Both cases Hebrew people (children of Shem) were confused as Egyptians, black people. This time is well before the Greeks and Romans.

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Semitic_languages
Also, the Semitic family is a member of the larger Afroasiatic family, all of whose other five or more branches are based in Africa.


quote:
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:

He is called HAM because the nation was called CHAM, not because they were Black people. You still haven't provided any suitable counter measure (if any) for the linguistic evidence I cited. Use linguistics to refute what I've said, not conjecture from myth.

You provide only your meaning of KM.
Where is data or links to the 30 meanings you state?

Where is your proof that KM = farm?
Please provide data or links we can follow showing KM = farm.

Also, the link you provided on Orden Goelet clearly states on page 40 that KMT is tied to all of KMT, not the farm/fertile area.
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Oh boy! We got the Bible's interpretation now.
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Takruri is correct. All this video does is repeat what he and others have said many times in this forum before. There is NO reference to 'land' or 'soil' at all in the word KMT. It's as simple as that.
 
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Djehuti

Simple, yet some people try and make it difficult.

The only word you get out of KM is Black NOTHING else. Why people try and pin the Egyptian language to other African ones is beside me.

As for the Bible, It is a FACT that all the descendants of Ham were or are regarded as Black. The people of the world was repopulated by the sons of Noah.

Peace
 
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
All of you MUST not own a dictionary of Hierglyphics. I just posted on this page a meaning of km, with the same charcoal glyph, that has the meaning MINERAL.

kmw (a mineral) [ noun - min. ] I6 - G17 - Z7 - N33 - Z2

In Budge's dictionary for the Book of the Dead he has an alternate spelling and renders it COPPER. Al Takruri on the previous page already cited in the Worterbuch a rendering from the fifth dynasty with land determinative. I posted the article from Goetlet that has the N23 determinative which is a sign for CULTIVATED LAND.

Just in Budges dictionary for the book of the dead you have the following:

pg 250
Khm.t = copper

pg 333
kmkm = a name of a god.

pg 338
kma = to create, to fashion, to form. Notice the sickle glyph, used for making things

pg 339

Kmamw = a god of creation
kma.t = goddess of the south

pg 340
km.t = Egypt with God determinative

KM also means to "complete, to end, to terminate, to close." This in Kiswahili is KOMA. In ciLuba we have the following: KANGA, KANGIKA, "close". -ko, -go, -ga are attached to general nouns in Niger-Congo.

Again, the KM root is used for more then just BLACK and you people are obviously not looking at dictionary.
 
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
I also forgot to add a rendering in the ciLuba language:

Cinkandà = kmt
(a) earth piece, field
(B) a field that one plows in a day


I have already demonstrated that m > n in CiLuba. The root of the word is KANDA (ci-n-kanda).

Here it is clear:

kanda = k-n-d
kemet = k-m-t

To demonstrate that KM deals with farming, we again look into ciLuba:

nkùnà(ò,ù)
Nkuna, nkuna mamina, kena amina
I plant and plant the seeds, they do not sprout (i.e., I am continually planting)

Nkuna means to plant, to invest.

Again, KN in ciLuba is KM in ciKam
 
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Narmer Menes:
Really good video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxR-cpIBaUE&feature=related

This is indeed a really good video (Pts 1 & 2); and agrees
completely with what I've been saying on this forum for years
[Wink]
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
VISUAL CONCORDANCE OF MDU NTR GLYPHS

 -
NOTE HOW KAMMAU OR "BLACKS" IS CAMOUFLAGED AS "EGYPTIANS"

 -
NOTE: KAMTI OR "BLACK IMAGE" OR "SACRED IMAGE" IS 'REDUCED' TO MERELY "IMAGE"

 -

NOTE HERE HOW "KAMI (KOUI)" OR "BLACK COW" BECOMES 'CREATIVE' WHEN
"KAMI (SHOIT)" OR "BLACK BOOK(S)" 'MAGICALLY' BECOMES - "BOOKS OF THE
BLACK LAND"; ENTIRELY MADE UP IN ORDER TO SUPPORT THE CATECHISM...
 -

KAMI (SHOIT) MEANS "BLACK LITERATURE", PLAIN AND
SIMPLE!
[Cool]


 
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
Again Wally, you still have to learn how to do comparative linguistics. Do you really think that the literature was called 'The Black Literature'? I still want you to address KM as "complete, to create and mineral" and try to make that same argument.
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
[Roll Eyes]

quote:
Originally posted by KING:

As for the Bible, It is a FACT . . . . .

Peace


 
Posted by blackman (Member # 1807) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
All of you MUST not own a dictionary of Hierglyphics.

http://books.google.com/books?id=iXKudStP3csC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_book_similarbooks#v=onepage&q&f=false

Budge even states his outdated view of the Egyptians on Chapter 1 page one of his book.
He believes the written language was brought in by invading people from the near east or central Asia.

However, we will over look that. Go to the last page of the link. What we are disputing is the meaning Kam = Egypt for land/soil/farm or nation/people/country. Symbols represented as charcoal, the owl, and the x surrounded by a circle.

So, the fisrt symbol of charcoal represents black. I don't think any of us dispute that.

What is in dispute is the last symbol of the x surrounded by a circle.

http://books.google.com/books?id=oPZZhlHuF-kC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_book_similarbooks#v=onepage&q&f=false
In his book here on page 10, left column, 5th from the bottom is the symbol, but not the meaning.
 
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
Again, you are demonstrating that you do not in fact know what we are talking about. I'm not talking about the niw.t symbol, I am trying to get you and others like you to address the EARLIEST usage of the word that has NO niw.t symbol but the N23 determinative for IRRIGATED LAND/FARM/CULTIVATED LAND.

Is this so difficult to grasp? Can we deal with this basic thing first. 1 comes before 2. The N23 comes in the word for Km.t before the niw.t symbol. Plain and simple.

So again, try and argue for "people" with a determinative that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH PEOPLE. I have given a source for these glyphs and there are images on the first page that show this as well. Let's get this straight before trying to add other things into the discussion we don't understand.
 
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
Again Wally, you still have to learn how to do comparative linguistics. Do you really think that the literature was called 'The Black Literature'? I still want you to address KM as "complete, to create and mineral" and try to make that same argument.

It is you who are confused, what I have presented
is not comparative linguistics. I am interpreting
the text as it is written:
If "Kame koui" means "Black cattle"
then
"Kame shoit" means "Black books, lit."

The word for "to complete, end, finish" in the
Mdu Ntr is "kamat" NOT simply "km"...
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Let's look at some hieroglyphs of Ancient Egyptian Language words for land.

 - ta; the word for land -- these two glyphs are often used as determinatives
 - ta djsr; the word for necropolis, -- so no farming, (dj is t in Djehuti/Thoth)
 - `hht; the word for farm land -- notice no ta glyph
 - prw; the word for land emerged from inundation -- the fabled so-called 'black land'
 - 3hht; the word for irrigable land
 - p3`t; the word for soil or field, i.e. arrable land

Notice not one of these actual AEL words has either KM or KM.t in them.
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ It would be interesting to see an Egyptologist or even a supposed Egyptian language 'expert' argue otherwise. [Wink]
 
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
 - KM+m[st] is the word for black(ness). The scroll determinative denotes conceptuality.
 - KM+m[st] is the word for complete. The scroll determinative denotes conceptuality.
 - s.KM+m[nkht] means 'to complete.' The striking man determinative denotes action.
 
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
 - KM+m[st] is the word for black(ness). The scroll determinative denotes conceptuality.
 - KM+m[st] is the word for complete. The scroll determinative denotes conceptuality.
 - s.KM+m[nkht] means 'to complete.' The striking man determinative denotes action.

You have provided an excellent and clear analysis of the language.

For example, in your two first glyphs, the last letter (st) represents the concept
of tying together, bringing to an end...

This word would most likely be pronounced as "Kamah" or "Kamaht",
and could conceivably derive from the concept that 'Black = completion'

The third glyph would indicate "finishing something
or someone off; completing a day's work.

...
 
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Originally posted 13 April, 2010:

Long ago I asked for examples of KM
used with determinatives for land.
I did so knowing that none of the
black land/soil proponents knew how
to read hieroglyphics and would fail
to produce definitive support.

I am reticent to do what I am about
to do because now those proponents
will have a source to work with but
the matter at hand dictates I proceed.

This is the oldest usage of KM.t as a
name for Egypt/Egyptians and with it is
a determinative for land. Also notice
what it juxtaposes. I don't have the full
context so not really sure if this refers
to a polity or just the literal ground.

 -

AEs were fully capable of appending glyphs
for land to KM.t and did so as seen here.

 -

In the above two examples, both signifying
land of the Black community, we find two
different glyphs for land use simultaneously.
The 't' suffix has nothing to do with ta as
ta plainly preceeds KM.t.[nwt] in each phrase.
 
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Originally posted April 14, 2010:

KM can be applied to anything that is considered
complete or the ultimate and such like concepts.

KM can be applied to anything that can be black.

You do see that KM.t.[nwt] is only one KM word in
the listing of KM.t words from Erman & Grapow. Did
you miss the posting of all those hieroglyphics?

Now KM is only the spelling using one ideogram
(a charcoal or crocodile scales, both of those
objects are black in color).

The sound 'kem' can be spelled k-m using two
alphabetic glyphs. I didn't post any of those.

In the case of either spelling KM.t or k-m.t means
black or complete/ultimate in and of itself. We can
only know what it is that is complete/ultimate or
black by the determinative in association with it.

Thus KM.t cannot mean black community without nwt.
KM.t cannot mean black ground without a determinative
for ground/land/soil/dirt/silt/etc. used with it.

quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
But if Black was the sacred color amongst Kemites ie the color of perfection then why not apply that to themselves and their land..black is beautiful as per us moderns(AAs)..black is secred as per the Kemites.


 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
KM is not applied to Nubians
 
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
The term Nubia did not even exists. So, yeah, you're right.


If we look at the state formation of the Cataracts at the Nile. We get a different/ better picture, to place KM in the right context.


I posted maps, for those who lack the geographical understanding of the region.

 -


 -


 -


https://www.utdallas.edu/geosciences/remsens/Nile/cataracts.html
 
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
 
"He is called HAM because the nation was called CHAM, not because they were Black people." Asar Imhotep
---

Cham.pa = Coast-Cambodia PhuQuoc dog "catchers"
Kham.pa = Tibet horse "catchers" using punt pole with loop

both from SamrePeoar/*Sanduembolo/*Xyambuatlaya Negritos from elephant(Damre) hunting pygmies that arrived at Kampot/Phu Quoc and learned to use dogs to pull their harigolu/coracles and pulqu/tekenu/sledges/prau/plow/peelers/bolo.


Dark = Dirt, lupa(Philippino) = soil
toil/tilth/trail(plow)...bumi(Malay):soil

yellow/red (ochre/ore) are dawn sky colors aura/oro(Spanish:gold)/A(b/v/u)rah'm


---

Asar Imhotep: "

Egyptic: km/kmt = black
Yoruba: agin, ogan, egan = black

Egyptic: km = farm, black land/soil
Yoruba: egan = black soil/fertile soil

Here (Egypt) /k/ > (Yoruba) /g/
/m/ > /n/

The Egyptian name 3bjw (Abju/Abydos) indicated the place in the wilderness of the mountain desert on both sides of "the gift of the nile" where Asar (Ashili in ciLuba/Isale in Yoruba/Sheol in Hebrew) the god of the dead lived as Lord of the desolate places which was named "ju" to the Egyptians.

In Yoruba "iju" means jungle" where the farmer had not the threat of desert to contend with (just weeds to deal with). Yoruba "iju" jungle is cognate with Egyptian "ju" mountain and both are really hinting at a primary semantic connotation of the root "wilderness." They are ideophonic variants.

In Egypt the desert is the inhospitable wilderness and to the Yoruba (for farmers) the dark jungle (agin-ju) is the inhospitable wilderness.

The Yoruba "egan" (black/fertile soil) became the Hebrew "gan" (garden) in the garden of Eden. Hebrew gan is Arabic "janna": the garden of gardens is al-janna. Yoruba Muslim vocabulary is "alujonna" = paradise.

Hebrew /g/ = Arabic /j/ = Yoruba /g/ correspondences. Genesis 13:10 says, "Lot lifted up his eyes and saw all the kikkar of the Jordan that it was well watered...like the "gan" of YHWH, like the land of Egypt as you come to Soar."

Could km-t also mean "paradise?" It is clear that no matter where we go in Africa km/gm/gn/jn means black soil, farm/fertile land, cultivated land, garden, and we can add paradise. There are no indications of people in regards to skin color and that's the reality. Check the related languages. The earliest usages are clear: they deal with land. Thus why the N23 determinative was used.

Based on this research, I am also contemplating if Kongo is modern-day KMT. In the Egyptian texts there is a rendering of KM that suggests the meaning of "god" (the unknowable). Budge in his Book of the Dead Dictionary has a rendering of the place-name KMT with a "god/deity/ntr" determinative.

It is said that the word Kongo is a word, on one level, meaning God. It also means "forest" as Dr. Fu-Kiau mentions in African Cosmology of the Bantu Kongo. We know Kikongo and Yoruba are related languages based on being in the Niger-Congo family.

As demonstrated above, Egan is the Yoruba word for Egyptian KM-t. A word for farm in the Tshiluba language (from which Kikongo derived) is called KANGA.

Both roots for Kongo and Kanga is -kn- with the -go/-ga suffix. The word kan-ga coincides with Egyptian km (farm) and Yoruba egan (-g-n)fertile soil. Since Kongo means, on one level, forests, it would coincide as well with the Yoruba "aginju" (agin-iju) [dark jungle].

Kon-go (k-n-g)
Agin-ju (g-n-j)

All common sound shifts. If this pans out to be right, then Kongo is the modern name for KMT. "

---

canga/congo ~ Kmt BUT also ~ Ankh??

Nope.
 
Posted by LEDAMA (Member # 21677) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
The problem with the whole analysis is that the actual hieroglyphic first rendering of the term had the irrigated land symbol. I have to find the Goetlet article on Km.t, which would coincide with "farmland" as we can see in these other languages:

quote:
Km "farm" - Egyptic
Kaam "farm" - Basa
Kaam "farm" - Doai
eKaam "farm" - Esitako
Kam "farm" - Ngodzin
Kumadin "farm" -Runda

When it has that determinative, it means farm not "black land." When it has the Niw.t symbol, it doesn't mean Black people, it simply means Country, City or Village, nothing to do with Black.

quote:

Km "polis" - Egyptic
Kami "Egypt"
Kom "country, region" - Balue
eKoma "city" - Okam
Kom "rural area" - Ndzem
Komwa "country, region" - Bakweri
-khumbi "nation" - Amazulu
Guma "country, region" - Pende
Gumo "village, city" - Dewoi
Gumi "rural area" -Caga
Gumba "city" -Lingala
Gomdji "land which grows warm and is healthy cultivated"

Again, the Black African reality doesn't support a Black Nation when the terms across Africa simply mean "country, rural area, village, city, nation," etc. with no connotations to color.

The Tshiluba language is a good start to do comparisons to the ancient Egyptian language and the Lingala group of languages.

Egypt is called CiKam <km.t, CiKam CiKulu-or-Bukama buKulu. Kulu is added because CiKam and Bukama are names of villages and cities in the Congo. Think here CIKAMA Mbuji-Mayi or the city Bukama, in the ancient capital of Luba, Katanga.

This would be how you render Km.t plus the people. It is becoming clear that the "determinatives" were actually spoken and the concept of a feminine ending -t as a hoax. The feminine -t suffix is actually a prefix with the sound value of -ts. This -ts became ci- in ciLuba. Thus why it is called ciKam where in conventional writing it would be Kam-ci[ts].

Instead of calling ancient Egypt Ta-Merry, call it by its Tshiluba [ciKam] name: "Land of Righteousness, Justice, Truth [Dya-Malelela; Cyamalela] or [Dya-Malela; Dya-Malanda] "Land of Love, Friendship and Fraternity". The TA is pronounced DYA and MRY is MaLeLA [r > l].

When doing the comparison, look into the African languages for help.


 
Posted by LEDAMA (Member # 21677) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
The problem with the whole analysis is that the actual hieroglyphic first rendering of the term had the irrigated land symbol. I have to find the Goetlet article on Km.t, which would coincide with "farmland" as we can see in these other languages:

quote:
Km "farm" - Egyptic
Kaam "farm" - Basa
Kaam "farm" - Doai
eKaam "farm" - Esitako
Kam "farm" - Ngodzin
Kumadin "farm" -Runda

When it has that determinative, it means farm not "black land." When it has the Niw.t symbol, it doesn't mean Black people, it simply means Country, City or Village, nothing to do with Black.

quote:

Km "polis" - Egyptic
Kami "Egypt"
Kom "country, region" - Balue
eKoma "city" - Okam
Kom "rural area" - Ndzem
Komwa "country, region" - Bakweri
-khumbi "nation" - Amazulu
Guma "country, region" - Pende
Gumo "village, city" - Dewoi
Gumi "rural area" -Caga
Gumba "city" -Lingala
Gomdji "land which grows warm and is healthy cultivated"

Again, the Black African reality doesn't support a Black Nation when the terms across Africa simply mean "country, rural area, village, city, nation," etc. with no connotations to color.

The Tshiluba language is a good start to do comparisons to the ancient Egyptian language and the Lingala group of languages.

Egypt is called CiKam <km.t, CiKam CiKulu-or-Bukama buKulu. Kulu is added because CiKam and Bukama are names of villages and cities in the Congo. Think here CIKAMA Mbuji-Mayi or the city Bukama, in the ancient capital of Luba, Katanga.

This would be how you render Km.t plus the people. It is becoming clear that the "determinatives" were actually spoken and the concept of a feminine ending -t as a hoax. The feminine -t suffix is actually a prefix with the sound value of -ts. This -ts became ci- in ciLuba. Thus why it is called ciKam where in conventional writing it would be Kam-ci[ts].

Instead of calling ancient Egypt Ta-Merry, call it by its Tshiluba [ciKam] name: "Land of Righteousness, Justice, Truth [Dya-Malelela; Cyamalela] or [Dya-Malela; Dya-Malanda] "Land of Love, Friendship and Fraternity". The TA is pronounced DYA and MRY is MaLeLA [r > l].

When doing the comparison, look into the African languages for help.

You are a good scholar Asar.Yes I agree with you Kemet means country in mdu-neter,but I disagree about.It is a fact the feminine 'T' in mdu-neter was always a SUFFIX not prefix.mdu-neter was a southern nilotic language.

Northern Kalenjin dialects(marakwet,pokot,tugen,cherangany) and barabaig(Datooga) use the term KEMET for country.
Southern kalenjin dialects(Nandi,kipsigis,keiyo,sebeny) silent the 'K',instead of Kemet they say EMET to mean country.
 
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Restoring rescinded imgs otherwise exactly as on p1
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

Long ago I asked for examples of KM
used with determinatives for land.
I did so knowing that none of the
black land/soil proponents knew how
to read hieroglyphics and would fail
to produce definitive support.

I am reticent to do what I am about
to do because now those proponents
will have a source to work with but
the matter at hand dictates I proceed.

This is the oldest usage of KM.t as a
name for Egypt/Egyptians and with it is
a determinative for land. Also notice
what it juxtaposes. I don't have the full
context so not really sure if this refers
to a polity or just the literal ground.

 -  -

AEs were fully capable of appending glyphs
for land to KM.t and did so as seen here.

 -  -

In the above two examples, both signifying
land of the Black community, we find two
different glyphs for land use simultaneously.
The 't' suffix has nothing to do with ta as
ta plainly preceeds KM.t.[nwt] in each phrase.


 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
If "land of the black community" is correct what does the word "black" pertain to in relation to community?
 
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
If "land of the black community" is correct what does the word "black" pertain to in relation to community?

.

It means that the people of the community were Black People.

This was explained by Dr. Levi.

.

 -
.
.
 -
,

See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeeDXjBZof4

.
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
 -
Kmt (Egypt)


quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
If "land of the black community" is correct what does the word "black" pertain to in relation to community?

.

It means that the people of the community were Black People.

This was explained by Dr. Levi.


o49 niw.t  -
means town not community as can be noted in Egyptian texts.
Dr. Levi did not prove it means "community" (group of people) and just reiterating Diop

The word "town" is not dependent on "land"
So "land" is irrelevant.
A town could be populated are abandoned and the glyph does not resample people.

A town could be called Black Town but that does not indicate what the black is referring to

He argues that the glyph for "land" is not there, similarly glyphs related to "skin" are not there either and there are people with the last name Black and place name where the word black is not pertaining to skin color


Asar argues in his book
A Contribution on the Debate of the meaning of the Place name Km.t

quote:
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:


Secondly, as discussed in previous works, the O49 hieroglyph is NOT a "city-plan" but is a stylized "water-basin." Ancient Egyptian villages did not have "streets" like we do in modern times. Those lines are irrigation canals from the larger water-basin designs.

So this is similar to town, it's referencing canals, structural elements

If niw.t  - were to mean "group of people" (community) then that would have to be proven by showing it does on the texts where it appears

similar circular glpyhs

o48 enclosed mound

o50 threshing floor
 
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Ahar har! When did hamlets villages towns and cites each cease being a group of people? Guffaw.
NIWT.t terminology includes: a local, citizens/townspeople, city, town. Ergo community.
Mayor of a city = a citizen over people ≠ official over buildings/structure.

AE devoid of civil engineering? Lotta roorag that! Informed amateur opinion is great
but just how does it overturn pro Egyptologists and excavators' findings in this case.

But no one'll be convinced of what they don't wanna believe.

 -
A map of Kahun produced by its excavator, Flinders Petrie

 -
Plans of two different types of housing; worker dwellings (left) and Great Houses (right)


Construction Of Kahun: A look at a planned city in 1895 BC Africa

... the worker’s village, was built in 1895 BC under the reign of King Senusret II during the Middle Kingdom period of ancient Egypt.


The village housed many people and contained lavish mansions including quarters that were exclusive for royalty. The fact that Kahun is a worker’s village is proved by the types of excavated artefacts which include tools such as; fishing nets, rakes, hoes, mallets, flints, copper chisels with wooden handles and knives.

Nevertheless, Kahun still had a functioning legal and political side. Not only did Kahun have a mayor, but it also had a house of legal proceedings and administrative offices. Land transfer deeds and legal wills are some of the numerous documents that were found are. Along with the legal documents, many other papyri were found including interesting medical papyri which contain passages outlining examined conditions and the treatments used to treat those conditions by the people of Kahun.


The Layout of the Town of Kahun

Covering about 14 hectares (14,0000 m2), the walled town took a rectangular shape and was rather overpopulated according to an estimate of ancient urban population densities. The houses had one or at most two floors. The town was much smaller than the 4th dynasty settlement at Giza. It was surrounded by a brick wall that extended along the north, west and partly along the east sides.

The town itself was divided into two parts by another wall separating the poor and the rich residential areas. The houses of the rich residential area were about fifty times as big as the houses of the poorer part of the town.

All over the town, the streets were laid out in straight lines. The main street was 9 meters wide while the streets and the alleys in the workers districts were as narrow as 1.5 meters.

The streets had shallow stones channels running down along the middle for drainage. There wasn’t much space left for gardens within the walls of the city, the entire area was covered with streets and mud-brick buildings.

 -

https://thinkafrica.net/construction-of-kahun-1895bc/


http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/cities.htm


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Asar argues in his book
A Contribution on the Debate of the meaning of the Place name Km.t

quote:
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:


Secondly, as discussed in previous works, the O49 hieroglyph is NOT a "city-plan" but is a stylized "water-basin." Ancient Egyptian villages did not have "streets" like we do in modern times. Those lines are irrigation canals from the larger water-basin designs.

So this is to be proven by showing it does on the texts where

 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Ahar har! When did hamlets villages towns and cites each cease being a group of people? Guffaw.


 -

^^^ this is a group of people?_________________  -
 
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
To an idiot?
An idiot thinking a word has a one and only meaning.
Idiots think all peoples concieve exactly alike.

Maus tot. Wha's so dead about mice?

Dead as a doorknob. Was it ever alive?


May I suggest an idot's guide that guided this idiot away from
the eurocentric notion Greeks invented intersecting streets.
Iirc, another African people, Soninke of ancient Dhar Tichitt,
planned their streets too. In AE, much larger than the Dhars,
orthogonal and haphazard streeting both existed, sometimes
coextensively.


Nadine Moeller

The Archaeology of Urbanism in Ancient Egypt
from the Predynastic period to the end of the Middle Kingdom

New York : Cambridge University Press , 2015
 
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Great reader friendly page on Kahun
about the quarters (was one a ghetto
slum?), hovels, houses, villas, 'mansions',
personal articles, (even a rat trap!) ...

https://erenow.net/ancient/the-complete-cities-of-ancient-egypt/12.php

 -
A possible reconstruction of the town of Kahun. Oxford University Press.
 
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 
The 'Kahun Medical Papyrus' or 'Gynaecological Papyrus'

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/museums-static/digitalegypt/med/birthpapyrus.html

https://srh.bmj.com/content/37/1/54

(Lesley Smith, The Kahun Gynaecological Papyrus: ancient Egyptian medicine)

quote:

 -

 -

 -

Plate number 7 of the Kahun Papyrus discussing veterinary medicine



 -

(1) Title: Treatment of the eyes (?) of a bull with ushau in winter.
(2) If you see a bull with ushau (3) in winter, and he is blinded (?).
(4) his two eyes are thick; gash thou as (5) above. If you see a bull. (6) with ushau in winter from cold.
(7) since its arrival in (?) the summer.
(8) his temples are wrinkled (?), his eyes are running, his stomach groaning (?).
(9) he does not walk (?) ….
(10) ….
(11) ….
(12) thou all his body with ... as is done to one.
(13) with a bruise (?).

Other parts of the survived text from the large fragment of the Kahun papyrus records the following treatments;


[…]

“Mulomedicus” doctors treating mules and “Medicus Pecuarius” doctors treating livestock. The animals that were used for labour such as mules, horses and donkeys were collectively called ‘Beasts of Burden’, and it is believed that its Latin translation ‘veterinarius’ is how the term ‘veterinary’ originated.

https://thinkafrica.net/kahun-papyrus-first-writing-on-veterinary-medicine-in-1895-bc-africa/
 
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Kahun also yielded the papyri printing KMt:RMt.w
posted several times in the past on ES, lastly here
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009721;p=1


Tnx 4/t medical side.
 
Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Ogden Goelet
Kemet and other Egyptian terms for their lands

most of the article is there

https://books.google.com/books?id=mpYDLXUfIO8C&pg=PR3&lpg=PR3&dq=Ki+Baruch+Hu&source=bl&ots=uyBBqepa2P&sig=ACfU3U0wwMpdi6OWmLtNs4Kt-B2FGIKaug&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj2_br6s6PrAhXCup 4KHTnVDh0Q6AEwAnoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=ogden&f=false
 
Posted by AncientGebts (Member # 17037) on :
 
Reading... [Big Grin]
 
Posted by AncientGebts (Member # 17037) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Narmer Menes:
Really good video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxR-cpIBaUE&feature=related

Yes, it is a really good video except when discussing the source of the Nile, he fails to mention Ethiopia, where up to 85% of the Nile's water that goes into Egypt comes from...

 -

Nile
The Nile is about 6,650 km (4,130 mi) long and its drainage basin covers eleven countries: Tanzania, Uganda, Rwanda, Burundi, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Kenya, Ethiopia, Eritrea, South Sudan, Republic of the Sudan, and Egypt. In particular, the Nile is the primary water source of Egypt and Sudan.

"The Nile has two major tributaries – the White Nile and the Blue Nile. The White Nile is considered to be the headwaters and primary stream of the Nile itself. The Blue Nile, however, is the source of most of the water, containing 80% of the water and silt."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nile

Blue Nile
"The Blue Nile (Amharic: ጥቁር አባይ, romanized: T’ik’uri Ābayi; Arabic: النيل الأزرق‎, romanized: an-Nīl al-ʾAzraqu), also known as the Abbay River (Amharic: ዓባይ) is a river originating at Lake Tana in Ethiopia."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Nile

I just cannot begin to understand the persistent attempt to write out Ethiopia from the history of ancient Egypt, not by European scholars, but by the African diaspora.

Can anybody explain to me why?
 
Posted by AncientGebts (Member # 17037) on :
 
Kem

 -

Although I have no opinion about what this word means, according to the pronunciation, the hieroglyph, and the topic of the Nile River, one particular word comes to mind. The word means "muddy" which applies to the riverbank...
I have other theories for the so-called name Kem, which is why I don't think chqama/"muddy" is necessarily the word/meaning.

In terms of the river bank, there are several words that could apply to the hieroglyph...
And then there's the Nile deposits themselves...
I will admit that the Tigrigna word, hmet does in fact mean "coal, charcoal"...
But in terms of color itself, it cannot bean "black, since there is an [L] before the [M]...
There are so many km/kmt hieroglyphs and each one could match to one of the specific words above.
 
Posted by AncientGebts (Member # 17037) on :
 
Newt

 -

This word doesn't necessarily mean "urban", but does refer to places related to income...
As the Tigrigna -t ending can indicate plural and feminine (possibly because babies come out of females), in this case the plural form of nway would be newyat.
 
Posted by AncientGebts (Member # 17037) on :
 
Land

 -

This word is the Tigrigna word, adi...


 
Posted by AncientGebts (Member # 17037) on :
 
White Land

 -

No, ta hetch does not refer to "white land". As the hieroglyph below shows, it is referring to "white bread"...

 -

In this case, the T/D hieroglyph is the word for "bread", dabo, and the word hetcha is the word "white"...

 
Posted by AncientGebts (Member # 17037) on :
 
Of

 -

Yes, he is correct that the word in-between means "of"...

 
Posted by AncientGebts (Member # 17037) on :
 
So far...

So far, it is impossible for Kemet to mean "black", and therefore cannot mean "black land" nor "black people", even though he attempts to make dabo hecha to mean "white land" (in order to imply the Ancient Egyptians referred to their soil in term of color), which it does not.

Look at it this way, even if his notion is that Kemet is supposed to mean "black people", then why didn't he say dabo hecha means "white people"? So he's not making sense at all. At least he should be consistent.

Plus, suggesting the hieroglyph he refers to means, "charcoal", as some kind of proof that Kem means "black" and therefore refers to "black people", plays into the ridiculous lie that in ancient Greek the word Ethiopia means people with "burnt faces", which is also does not.

Additionally, all Africans are not black in color, in addition to the fact that when you shine a bright light onto the skin of many who appear to be of a black color, you see they are actually brown. So then, why would brown people refer to themselves as black? Makes no sense.

In his part 2, I hope he'll bring up the so-called "red land", so that I can address the so-called word, "red", which does not actually mean "red".

Here's his part 2...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klUHGcW8L7E
 
Posted by AncientGebts (Member # 17037) on :
 
Tisha

"Deshret, from Ancient Egyptian, was the formal name for the Red Crown of Lower Egypt. The Egyptian pharaohs... wore the deshret to symbolize their authority over Lower Egypt."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deshret

"Neith... a borrowing of the Demotic form Ancient Egyptian: nt, likely originally nrt", acccording to the Wikipedia article ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neith ), her name was Mirtnesh (ምርት ነሽ) and means "you are harvest"...

 -

Below we see Queen Mirtnesh. She was the original founder and queen of the Yafo/Dead Sea large-scale farming region of Lower Egypt. Below we can see her wearing the red crown...

 -

The crown is actually the shape of a red grain floret awn, as we see below...

 -

As she was a farmer as well as a rancher, with sound change, the [T] pronunciation in her name interchanged with the [D] pronunciation to become, Marednesh, from the word mared (ማረድ) to kill, to slaughter...

 -

So, the Egyptologist-transliterated word, Deshret does not mean "red". We can see the hieroglyph for Tisha below...

 -

We can see the reference to the word Tisha in the Rosetta Stone. In the 196BC passage, the ancient Greeks were complaining that the Egyptian military guarding the Tisha farms were rebelling and refusing to leave their guard posts there, which prevented the ancient Greeks from plundering the Tisha farms...

 -

We can see the word Tisha in hieroglyphs below, a word that means countryside...

 -

For more, you can download the PDF of my Amazon book "The Women Who Invented Writing and Ancient Egyptian Civilization" for free...
http://files.ancientgebts.org/The_Women_Who_Invented_Writing_and_Ancient_Egyptian_Civilization.pdf

Therefore, since the Egyptologist-transliterated word, Deshret does not mean "red" and in fact is Tisha/"bush,countryside", it does not refer to either the color of land, and so does not mean Red Land. And, likewise, does not mean red people, either.

This eliminates any correlation to the idea Kemet referring to either black land or people, since there is no such white land nor red land.
 
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
You are entitled to your opinion.

I don't retranslate.

I translate directly from primary sources
as much as possible when available to me
and use standard lexicons and dictionaries
and thus stand on the accuracy of my
translation only per the language the
people producing a document spoke
in day to day life.

They wrote exactly what they meant
without reference to languages from
elsewhere, period.


I haven't responded negatively to your retranslations
Afford my translation the same due respect, thank you.


I don't retranslate Shakespeare based on
Germanic French Latin or Greek meanings
of similarly spelled words. AEL was written
long before any anachronistic comparative
lect which similarities are logged in every
scholastic lexicon. And black scholars have
in print examined lexemes of their languages
to AEL ones like you who has produced it for
Ethiopian Semitic languages -- as there are
plenty Cushitic Omotic Nilotic native speakers.

The archive has posts on apparently 'proto-Oromo'

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009123#000018
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=007406

architects UahKa family founding or included in
several dynasties. As good an AE related Ethiopian
ethnic group as any, and afaik, less if at all effected
by cross the Red Sea migrant women 3000 years
gone. Personally I think the shores of Red Sea/Aden
were just two sides of a Two Shore Empire Habesh
founded more than 3000 yrs ago. Perhaps it was
just an upswing in Yemen to Itiopi ongoing travel
(not migration). Both claim Maqeda/Bilqis as their
very own greatest queen after all.

If only legendary she still attests to a Two Shore Empire
in the popular 'Itiopi-Yamani' mind. True, no strong argument, that.


Sound exchange is nothing new  -

Consider lip produced sound exchanges.

* pail
* bail
* mail
* wail

* fail
* veil

are not interchangeable in meaning though
Volkswagen and FolksWagon have v/f and e/o
correspondences German to English with
meaning intact. It doesn't change into
a different word of imprecise correlation.

I'm not about to enter into debate with anyone
A master at debate could successfully argue
me down that water isn't wet but in a level
discussion that premise is stillborn regardless
non-liquid fluids vapor steam or the solid ice.

I wish you well with your endeavors. However,
your work does not correct mine or the scholars
unnamed who considered and agreed with it.

To each his own.

km/kmt = black as primary definition.
Like most words it has secondary and
even tertiary meanings in AEL, ditto
dSrt. km perfectly describes black
people depended on Itiopi source
Black Nile black inundation silt
be they in Kush Sudan or Ta Meri Egypt.

Likewise niwt. A place where people have
settled and improved the land or also a
"community" will always be its most used
meanings. Seemingly to the extent niwt
suffixed places rep Egyptian domains in
contradistinction to xAst mostly for
foreign placenames.
 
Posted by AncientGebts (Member # 17037) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
To each his own.

I agree.
 
Posted by AncientGebts (Member # 17037) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
However,
your work does not correct mine or the scholars
unnamed who considered and agreed with it.

Just for the record, I hadn't read anybody's posts, except the initial post of the video by Narmer Menes. So, I was only commenting on the information provided by the host of "Truth and Lies," based upon his specific arguments.

My issue was the host of "Truth and Lies" attempted to show there was some pattern of the ancient Egyptian calling their land different colors. And he presented his evidence of that with "white land" when it turns out that was really "white bread."

But then, he said it was not the land that was described in terms of color, but the people. And later, he did not correct his implication that "white land" then would have been "white people."

He was very selective in which definitions he changed for his argument.

I'm well aware of the concept that Kemet is supposed to refer to either "Black Land" or "Black People." I just don't have an opinion, which is why I personally never published anything on it between my 23 books. I won't publish anything until I'm 99.9% sure.

But the host cannot make erroneous claims based on evidence that doesn't exist. Therefore, I wasn't arguing against anything you or anyone else posted, since I never read anyone's posts in this topic yet, except the original post featuring the link to the video.
 
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
As I have discussed in Aaluja Vol. II (2020: 316-320), 1) the ancient Egyptian language is built from monosyllabic CV roots (which nullifies the argument that Egyptian is Amharic or Tigrinya), and 2) the word dSr.t refers to a type of barren land: a land without water and vegetation.

The word dSr.t is built off a √S root, with a d- prefix, and -r and -t suffixes. This √S root has to deal with "deprivation" and "emptiness." To demonstrate that d- is a prefix, we observe, for example:

Sr "threaten"
d.Sr "angry"
d.Sr.w "wrath"

The d- prefix is a nominalizer on the verb. The root √S, dealing with barrenness and emptiness can be seen in the following:

Sw "emptiness, absence"
Sw "be empty, be lacking, be devoid (of), be missing (from), to be vacant, unload (ship)"
s.Sw.j "make empty"
Sw.t "empty sheet of papyrus"
tp Sw "ruin, neglect, decay"

Other variants of the word has the -w suffix prefixed. For example:

wS "to be empty of; to be destroyed"
wS "(vacant) place; space; interruption"

The concept of being "empty" and "barren" leads to words meaning "poverty." We observe:

Sw "needy man, poor man"
Sw.A "to be poor" [-A verbal suffix]
Sw.A "to become impoverished"
Sw.A.w "poverty" [-w suffix of abstraction]
Sw.A.t "impoverishment"

These terms apply to words dealing with "dryness" as can be seen from the following:

Sw "dry, dried; drought"
Sw.jt "wasteland, desert"
Sw.w "dry land; dry pieces of wood"
Sw.yt "a dry place"
SwSy.t "dryness; drought"
Sw.yt "dry spot
s.Sw.j "make dry"
Sw.yw "dry grass, hay; rushes"

Egyptian also has a -r verbal suffix as well as a -r nominal suffix. The verbal suffix is present in the word Sr "to stop, to block up" and is related to ciLuba-Bantu shawula "stunted, to degenerate, to diminish, prevent the growth or development" > di.shala "to remain behind, be underdeveloped." This is what underlies the word dSr.t "desert." It is a place where the growth of life has been halted, stunted. When the S-r root is prefixed with d- in Egyptian, we get the following:

d.Sr "impurity, dirt"
d.Sr.t "fire, flame"
d.Sr.t "desert, foreign country"

We know that d- is a prefix because the same root also has reflexes with the w- prefix. We observe the following:

w.Sr "dry; wither; absence; lacking; be bald"
w.Sr "to dry; to parch"
w.Sr "to be absent; to lack"
w.Sr "dry land; dry area"
w.Sr.t "dry land"

The words wSr/wSr.t and dSr.t are variations on the same theme and root: i.e., S-r. The theme is "absence of water, life, and vegetation." A dSr.t is defined by its LACK of life sustaining resources. The cognate in ciLuba-Bantu is di.Shila "being burnt, desertification" ~ di.shil "parched land." Notice in Egyptian that the -w in Sw "dry land, drought" is replaced with -r in w.Sr "dry land, dry area; to dry, to parch." Notice the correlation between "empty" and "dry" as evident by the words sSw.j "make dry" and sSw.j "make empty." A desert is a land that is "dry" and "empty."

This root has nothing to do with being "red" and the dichotomy between km.t and dSr.t has to do with presence of [+WATER][+VEGETATION] and the absence of [-WATER][-VEGETATION], respectively.

As always, these debates go on forever because people do not want to study the language in depth. There is no "black" vs. "red" land dichotomy. Only the presence of "water" vs. the absence of "water." This is why 99% of all the forms of the word Km.t have classifiers depicting WATER in the form of irrigation canals. When we learn the language, and quit trying to make it Semitic, we learn a lot. Good day people.
 
Posted by AncientGebts (Member # 17037) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Narmer Menes:
The video also dispels the Nubian Myth by explaining that Egypt was a term used ONLY to describe the Delta region of Kemet, occupied by the Greeks. Kemet referred to the entire region of Egypt/Nubia and there is NO notable distinction used exclusively for the region that we now call Egypt.

In the Rosetta Stone, the ancient Greeks referred to Egypt with 4 different names and in different contexts.

Below are four instances of Kemet using two different hieroglyphs...

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Posted by AncientGebts (Member # 17037) on :
 
Below are references to Ta Mer-t. Unlike the refences to Kemet, these all use the same hieroglyphic reference...
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Posted by AncientGebts (Member # 17037) on :
 
Finally, below are the references to Egypt as Baq-t, also like Kemet using two different versions of the hieroglyphic reference...
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Posted by AncientGebts (Member # 17037) on :
 
What strikes me is the difference between the hieroglyphic references to Kemet and Baq-t...


 
Posted by AncientGebts (Member # 17037) on :
 
In terms of Ta Mer-t, the reference to the "Egyptian month of Mekheir", it is obvious this is a reference to all of Egypt, Upper and Lower, since both obviously share a single month.
 
Posted by AncientGebts (Member # 17037) on :
 
In terms of whether all of Egypt was Kemet, as Ta Mer-t appears to have been, we have a reference that includes Kemet...

"And he hath made provision that forces of cavalry and infantry, and ships also, should be dispatched against those who were about to invade Kemet, both by sea and land, incurring great expenditure in money and grain so that the temples and all who were in the country might be in a state of security."

This sentence leads me to believe that Kemet was the Nile Valley, possibly including the Nile Delta. I think this because it was the ancient Greeks in the Delta and Nile Valley who needed security.

Soldiers were guarding the Tisha Lower Egyptian region of the Yafo, Dead Sea region, so it was sicure. And I don't believe the Egyptian military guarding the Tisha had any reason to leave it to attack the ancient Greeks in the Nile Valley/Delta, since leaving the Tisha would leave the Tisha/Yafo, Dead Sea farming region vulnerable to ancient Greek military attack.

So, I really think the so-called invasion threat was a lie and part of the propaganda of the ancient Greeks, written to make the ancient Egyptians believe the ancient Greeks were there to protect them.
 
Posted by AncientGebts (Member # 17037) on :
 
Maybe somebody else here has a different analysis from mine.

These are the only references to Egypt by any name in the Rosetta Stone.

And one hieroglyphic reference to Kemet does not use the charcoal...

 -
 
Posted by AncientGebts (Member # 17037) on :
 
Panapolis/Akhmim

 -

 -

"Akhmim (Arabic: أخميم‎, pronounced [ʔæxˈmiːm]; Akhmimic Coptic: ⳉⲙⲓⲙ, pronounced [xmiːm]; Sahidic/Bohairic Coptic: ϣⲙⲓⲛ pronounced [ʃmiːn]) is a city in the Sohag Governorate of Upper Egypt. Referred to by the ancient Greeks as Khemmis or Chemmis (Ancient Greek: Χέμμις) and Panopolis (Ancient Greek: Πανὸς πόλις), it is located on the east bank of the Nile, four miles (6.4 km) to the northeast of Sohag."

Akhmim was known in Ancient Egypt as Ipu, Apu (according to Brugsch the name is related to the nearby village of Kafr Abou) or Khent-min. It was the capital of the ninth (Chemmite) nome of Upper Egypt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhmim

Could A-kem-im = Kem-t?[/b]
 
Posted by AncientGebts (Member # 17037) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
the word dSr.t refers to a type of barren land: a land without water and vegetation.

The word Tisha means "bush" and as a region, "the bush" or "countryside."
It refers to the Yafo, Dead Sea region of Lower Egypt, which is desert littered with almost nothing other than bushes. You can see it in the photo below...

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Mosada, Negev Desert, Israel

This photo from Mosada in the Israel Negev Desert shows it does have vegetation -- bushes/shrubbery. Prior to ancient Egyptians farming in the areas surrounding the Dead Sea, all there was were bushes/shrubbery like these shown in the photo.
 
Posted by AncientGebts (Member # 17037) on :
 
The color of the red crown is red because the crown represents the shape of a red grain floret awn. But the name of the red crown has nothing to do with color. The ancient Egyptians did not call it "red crown", Egyptologists do.
 


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