posted
So the (miwt) determenative is only used in reference to urban areas, or populaces. So K.mt(niwt) would translate Black Populace... The video also dispels the Nubian Myth by explaining that Egypt was a term used ONLY to describe the Delta region of Kemet, occupied by the Greeks. Kemet referred to the entire region of Egypt/Nubia and there is NO notable distinction used exclusively for the region that we now call Egypt.
Hence, when the term Nubian began being applied and was adopted by the Arab's it was simply a way to distinguish the black (original inhabitants) of Kemet from the Delta occupants, and it remains the same to this day. Those of the delta were and are physically different to the original inhabitants of the Kemet.
Posts: 365 | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Good vid, a few notes something that struck me right away, and reminded me of something I've read from Diop. I'm going to break down the vid somewhat in the following...
Ok, The vid speaks upon the explanation for the use of black land for Kemet which derives from Herodotus who speaks to the Nile river flood whereas afterwards there was a sediment that covered the ground making it appear black. And Herodotus MIGHT HAVE SAID Egypt was the gift of the Nile river.
Although when we actually read Herodotus's testimonies, he says "the part of Egypt", so from the start we know he is only talking about a part of Egypt, but which part?
Herodotus goes on to say "where the Greek ships docked" hence we know he's speaking about the delta.
Herodotus goes on to say "is a land of alluvium, a gift from the river"
Well what is Alluvium? (Alluvium (from the Latin, alluvius, from alluere, "to wash against") is loose, unconsolidated (not cemented together into a solid rock), soil or sediments, eroded, deposited, and reshaped by water in some form in a non-marine setting.)
The vid then notes this to be the first historical distortion as its clear that Herodotus is speaking upon the delta (part of Egypt) being a gift from the Nile, not the entire country of Egypt.
Then notes Herodotus saying "In the past the Egyptians didn't have a land" "We know that their Delta, and they are the only ones who say it, and that's how I feel about it" "..was a land of alluvium" "...a land that newly emerged".
Then goes on to note that the black soil comes from the deep south Uganda, Rwanda, Nubia, the sacred soil which comes from inner Africa.
Ok, after noting above, now a quick excerpt from C. A. Diops "African origin of Civilization" and what is said about the Delta;
quote:In the final analysis, to counter attempts to present the Delta as a region more favorable than Upper Egypt for the flowering of a civilization, it is important to answer with what is really known about the Delta. The Delta is universally recognized as the permanent home of the plague in the Near East. It has been the point of departure for all the epidemics of the plague that have raged in that region throughout the course of history. Without exaggerating, we can go farther and affirm that the Delta, as such, did not exist, even at the time of Menes, since Memphis was at the edge of the sea. The region of lower Egypt was at the time completely unhealthy and almost uninhabitable. One became mired in the mud. After the public works initiated by Menes, it became less unhealthy. As for the western Delta, one can wonder what it was like before Menes since we now know that the course of the river was not the same as it is today and that the first Pharaoh gave it its present direction by having dams built and the earth filled in. Earlier the river had flowed westward.
...the river flowed entirely along the sandy ridge of hills which skirts Egypt on the side of Lybia. Menes, however, by banking up the river at the bend which it forms about a hundred furlongs south of Memphis, laid the ancient channel dry, while he dug a new course for the stream halfway between the two lines of hills. To this day, the elbow which the Nile forms at the point where it is forced aside into a new channel is guarded with the greatest care by the Persians, and strengthened every year; for if the river were to burst out of place, and pour over the mound, there would be danger of Memphis being completely overwhelmed by the flood.
If the damn broke, Memphis would be submerged by the waters of the Nile. This proves that the site of the city was really won from the waters, somewhat like polders. The capital of the first Egyptian king was in the south, at Thebes, and Memphis was founded, above all, for military purposes. It was a fortified place at the junction of the infiltration routes for Asian shepherds from the east and nomads from the west, whom the Egyptians called Rebou or Lebou, whence the name Lybians. (Eighteenth Dynasty)
^^Seems basically that the Delta didn't exist at the rise of Dynastic Egypt and that it was created afterwards. Herodotus noting that the part of Egypt where the Greeks docked their ships (Delta) was a newly crated land of alluvium is more testament to this fact.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by DhulAlQarnain: So that just defeats your whole lie about everyone coming from the Egyptians, Huh.
Huh? How so? Explain how discussing what Kemet means, and that the Delta area of Egypt didn't exist during the rise of Dynastic Egypt, reaffirmed by Herodotus, has anything to do with claiming to come from Egyptians? LOL
You kid, make no sense!
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: stupid people, every egyptologist says it is land/soil.
No, only stupid ones do. REAL Egyptologists who can READ the script know that it is an uncorroborated claim.
Posts: 365 | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
No they do not, ignorant black radicals support that view. It will never be mainstream and only on afrocentric web sites will a single soul say anything about it.
-------------------- The tree of liberty is watered by the blood of tyrants. Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
The problem with the whole analysis is that the actual hieroglyphic first rendering of the term had the irrigated land symbol. I have to find the Goetlet article on Km.t, which would coincide with "farmland" as we can see in these other languages:
quote:Km "farm" - Egyptic Kaam "farm" - Basa Kaam "farm" - Doai eKaam "farm" - Esitako Kam "farm" - Ngodzin Kumadin "farm" -Runda
When it has that determinative, it means farm not "black land." When it has the Niw.t symbol, it doesn't mean Black people, it simply means Country, City or Village, nothing to do with Black.
quote: Km "polis" - Egyptic Kami "Egypt" Kom "country, region" - Balue eKoma "city" - Okam Kom "rural area" - Ndzem Komwa "country, region" - Bakweri -khumbi "nation" - Amazulu Guma "country, region" - Pende Gumo "village, city" - Dewoi Gumi "rural area" -Caga Gumba "city" -Lingala Gomdji "land which grows warm and is healthy cultivated"
Again, the Black African reality doesn't support a Black Nation when the terms across Africa simply mean "country, rural area, village, city, nation," etc. with no connotations to color.
The Tshiluba language is a good start to do comparisons to the ancient Egyptian language and the Lingala group of languages.
Egypt is called CiKam <km.t, CiKam CiKulu-or-Bukama buKulu. Kulu is added because CiKam and Bukama are names of villages and cities in the Congo. Think here CIKAMA Mbuji-Mayi or the city Bukama, in the ancient capital of Luba, Katanga.
This would be how you render Km.t plus the people. It is becoming clear that the "determinatives" were actually spoken and the concept of a feminine ending -t as a hoax. The feminine -t suffix is actually a prefix with the sound value of -ts. This -ts became ci- in ciLuba. Thus why it is called ciKam where in conventional writing it would be Kam-ci[ts].
Instead of calling ancient Egypt Ta-Merry, call it by its Tshiluba [ciKam] name: "Land of Righteousness, Justice, Truth [Dya-Malelela; Cyamalela] or [Dya-Malela; Dya-Malanda] "Land of Love, Friendship and Fraternity". The TA is pronounced DYA and MRY is MaLeLA [r > l].
When doing the comparison, look into the African languages for help.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: The problem with the whole analysis is that the actual hieroglyphic first rendering of the term had the irrigated land symbol. I have to find the Goetlet article on Km.t, which would coincide with "farmland" as we can see in these other languages:
quote:Km "farm" - Egyptic Kaam "farm" - Basa Kaam "farm" - Doai eKaam "farm" - Esitako Kam "farm" - Ngodzin Kumadin "farm" -Runda
When it has that determinative, it means farm not "black land." When it has the Niw.t symbol, it doesn't mean Black people, it simply means Country, City or Village, nothing to do with Black.
quote: Km "polis" - Egyptic Kami "Egypt" Kom "country, region" - Balue eKoma "city" - Okam Kom "rural area" - Ndzem Komwa "country, region" - Bakweri -khumbi "nation" - Amazulu Guma "country, region" - Pende Gumo "village, city" - Dewoi Gumi "rural area" -Caga Gumba "city" -Lingala Gomdji "land which grows warm and is healthy cultivated"
Again, the Black African reality doesn't support a Black Nation when the terms across Africa simply mean "country, rural area, village, city, nation," etc. with no connotations to color.
The Tshiluba language is a good start to do comparisons to the ancient Egyptian language and the Lingala group of languages.
Egypt is called CiKam <km.t, CiKam CiKulu-or-Bukama buKulu. Kulu is added because CiKam and Bukama are names of villages and cities in the Congo. Think here CIKAMA Mbuji-Mayi or the city Bukama, in the ancient capital of Luba, Katanga.
This would be how you render Km.t plus the people. It is becoming clear that the "determinatives" were actually spoken and the concept of a feminine ending -t as a hoax. The feminine -t suffix is actually a prefix with the sound value of -ts. This -ts became ci- in ciLuba. Thus why it is called ciKam where in conventional writing it would be Kam-ci[ts].
Instead of calling ancient Egypt Ta-Merry, call it by its Tshiluba [ciKam] name: "Land of Righteousness, Justice, Truth [Dya-Malelela; Cyamalela] or [Dya-Malela; Dya-Malanda] "Land of Love, Friendship and Fraternity". The TA is pronounced DYA and MRY is MaLeLA [r > l].
When doing the comparison, look into the African languages for help.
posted
So Asar, just to get this straight, your rendering of Km.t(niwt) or t.Km, would be 'Place of agriculture' or 'the farming metropolis'... or something like that?
quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: Very interesting...
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: The problem with the whole analysis is that the actual hieroglyphic first rendering of the term had the irrigated land symbol. I have to find the Goetlet article on Km.t, which would coincide with "farmland" as we can see in these other languages:
quote:Km "farm" - Egyptic Kaam "farm" - Basa Kaam "farm" - Doai eKaam "farm" - Esitako Kam "farm" - Ngodzin Kumadin "farm" -Runda
When it has that determinative, it means farm not "black land." When it has the Niw.t symbol, it doesn't mean Black people, it simply means Country, City or Village, nothing to do with Black.
quote: Km "polis" - Egyptic Kami "Egypt" Kom "country, region" - Balue eKoma "city" - Okam Kom "rural area" - Ndzem Komwa "country, region" - Bakweri -khumbi "nation" - Amazulu Guma "country, region" - Pende Gumo "village, city" - Dewoi Gumi "rural area" -Caga Gumba "city" -Lingala Gomdji "land which grows warm and is healthy cultivated"
Again, the Black African reality doesn't support a Black Nation when the terms across Africa simply mean "country, rural area, village, city, nation," etc. with no connotations to color.
The Tshiluba language is a good start to do comparisons to the ancient Egyptian language and the Lingala group of languages.
Egypt is called CiKam <km.t, CiKam CiKulu-or-Bukama buKulu. Kulu is added because CiKam and Bukama are names of villages and cities in the Congo. Think here CIKAMA Mbuji-Mayi or the city Bukama, in the ancient capital of Luba, Katanga.
This would be how you render Km.t plus the people. It is becoming clear that the "determinatives" were actually spoken and the concept of a feminine ending -t as a hoax. The feminine -t suffix is actually a prefix with the sound value of -ts. This -ts became ci- in ciLuba. Thus why it is called ciKam where in conventional writing it would be Kam-ci[ts].
Instead of calling ancient Egypt Ta-Merry, call it by its Tshiluba [ciKam] name: "Land of Righteousness, Justice, Truth [Dya-Malelela; Cyamalela] or [Dya-Malela; Dya-Malanda] "Land of Love, Friendship and Fraternity". The TA is pronounced DYA and MRY is MaLeLA [r > l].
When doing the comparison, look into the African languages for help.
posted
No, I am saying that there is a rendering, the earliest rendering, of KM.t that has the irrigated land determinative instead of a Niw.t symbol. We can't argue that Km.t in this sense is not referring to land as the definer is clearly an irrigated land symbol (A farm). So it is no surprise that in other related Black African languages we find the same KM or GM root to mean "farm."
The rendering of Km.t with the people determinative is rare. You won't find that much. But non the less, that determinative would render the word, in Tshiluba, BuKam.
There is a rendering in the book of the dead with Km.t with a Neter (Ndele in Tshiluba) symbol. We wouldn't render it "land of the Black gods?" This would be buKama Bukulu or CiKama CiKulu as KULU are the revered elders, the wise priests in the society (or ancestors). KULU is how you would render HRW as the /h/ sound is actually a /ch/ or /kh/ sound that in Lingala becomes a hard /k/ sound. The /e/ is Egytologists guessing and as will be seen in the future, the /w/ ending can be any vowel, but in this case stays faithful. KULU means to be on high, erect, to be of high rank. LU is a common Niger-Congo root to mean "peak, high, apex, sky, etc." This same word HRW/KULU is palatized to become ZULU (the heavens, or spirit of the heavens, the sky) in Common bantu. It is OSORO (spirit of the sky) in Akan.
The rendering of the bearded determinatives as "gods" is a European misconception of the African reality. It is too much to get into here.
When you see Km.t with Niw.t determinative, it is not rendered BLACK COUNTRY as the word with bi-consonantal root KM in the other related Black African languages cannot be found an example of BLACK COUNTRY, just "country, rural area, city, village", in other words and urbanized or area populated with people.
Examining other related languages helps us to clarify ambiguous terms in the language under evaluation. So what I'm getting at is there are many meanings for the root -km- and trying to apply one meaning for all consonant clusters will render your results false. Always look into the related languages for clues.
quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: [QB] So Asar, just to get this straight, your rendering of Km.t(niwt) or t.Km, would be 'Place of agriculture' or 'the farming metropolis'... or something like that?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: No, I am saying that there is a rendering, the earliest rendering, of KM.t that has the irrigated land determinative instead of a Niw.t symbol. We can't argue that Km.t in this sense is not referring to land as the definer is clearly an irrigated land symbol (A farm). So it is no surprise that in other related Black African languages we find the same KM or GM root to mean "farm."
The rendering of Km.t with the people determinative is rare. You won't find that much. But non the less, that determinative would render the word, in Tshiluba, BuKam.
There is a rendering in the book of the dead with Km.t with a Neter (Ndele in Tshiluba) symbol. We wouldn't render it "land of the Black gods?" This would be buKama Bukulu or CiKama CiKulu as KULU are the revered elders, the wise priests in the society (or ancestors). KULU is how you would render HRW as the /h/ sound is actually a /ch/ or /kh/ sound that in Lingala becomes a hard /k/ sound. The /e/ is Egytologists guessing and as will be seen in the future, the /w/ ending can be any vowel, but in this case stays faithful. KULU means to be on high, erect, to be of high rank. LU is a common Niger-Congo root to mean "peak, high, apex, sky, etc." This same word HRW/KULU is palatized to become ZULU (the heavens, or spirit of the heavens, the sky) in Common bantu. It is OSORO (spirit of the sky) in Akan.
The rendering of the bearded determinatives as "gods" is a European misconception of the African reality. It is too much to get into here.
When you see Km.t with Niw.t determinative, it is not rendered BLACK COUNTRY as the word with bi-consonantal root KM in the other related Black African languages cannot be found an example of BLACK COUNTRY, just "country, rural area, city, village", in other words and urbanized or area populated with people.
Examining other related languages helps us to clarify ambiguous terms in the language under evaluation. So what I'm getting at is there are many meanings for the root -km- and trying to apply one meaning for all consonant clusters will render your results false. Always look into the related languages for clues.
quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: [QB] So Asar, just to get this straight, your rendering of Km.t(niwt) or t.Km, would be 'Place of agriculture' or 'the farming metropolis'... or something like that?
Actually that rendering of KM.t being a reference to irrigated land is something mentioned in the worterbuch dictionary of Ancient Egyptian grammar.
Unfortunately I doubt very seriously that it has the implication that you think it does. Firstly the irrigated land determinative is Ta as in Tawy and is not pronounced as KM.T.
Here is the section of the Worterbuch with the reference in it:
posted
Weeellll??? linguistics is not my thing but it sounds like guy, Asar, is making a case that KMT does NOT mean black nation/people, but black soil and some egyptologist suggest.
Doug's come back was. . . ."check out the dictionary"
Narmer?. . ." "
Any other takers?
Many are reading guys. Put this to bed. Pun intended.
Posts: 12144 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
KM itself simply means 1) black 2) complete or ultimate.
Without a determinative that's all it means.
I don't understand how various applications of KM were understood in speech without the appended glyphs like 't' or 'tyw' or any of the determinitives being pronounced.
posted
You're not giving me any analysis. Let's say that it is rendered -ta, the word would still be Km.t ta(land) which means, if we were to accept your conclusion of KM meaning "black", that KM.t [N23] means THE BLACK LAND. You in essence demonstrate for the Eurocentrists that they are indeed correct.
What is undeniable is the earliest usage of the term has the cultivated land/irrigated land determinative and that is clearly an agricultural symbol.
As a linguistical method, when a term is obscure, you look for the terminology in related languages, and those in which the primary culture under analysis has had interactions with so we can see if there is any exchanging of lexical items: to see if the term has been "loaned."
After conducting this method of analysis, Oscar PFOUMA has demonstrated that this can't be the case. KM is a common root and the roots that best fit the "determinatives" are farmland or a polity (country, nation, village, etc.) Black in reference to the people makes no sense when they are the sovereign rulers of the nation among other Black nations at the time.
I've been studying this issue for years and have yet to come across ANY ancient Egyptian texts that discuss ANYthing in regards to how they feel about their Black skins. All people refer to is Kantanga's (Akhenanten's) hymm when he discusses Aten creating different ethnic groups, but no analysis from the buKame themselves in regarding any philosophy in regards their Black skins.
I am not convinced by anyone's, including Diop's, claim that ciKam (km.t) means Black Nation in regards to black people. The comparative evidence is clear and until anyone provides any greater evidence, I will have to go with my conclusions. I posted the Ogden Goelet article and I suggest everyone read it and build from that knowledge.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Actually that rendering of KM.t being a reference to irrigated land is something mentioned in the worterbuch dictionary of Ancient Egyptian grammar.
Unfortunately I doubt very seriously that it has the implication that you think it does. Firstly the irrigated land determinative is Ta as in Tawy and is not pronounced as KM.T.
Here is the section of the Worterbuch with the reference in it:
posted
Long ago I asked for examples of KM used with determinatives for land. I did so knowing that none of the black land/soil proponents knew how to read hieroglyphics and would fail to produce definitive support.
I am reticent to do what I am about to do because now those proponents will have a source to work with but the matter at hand dictates I proceed.
This is the oldest usage of KM.t as a name for Egypt/Egyptians and with it is a determinative for land. Also notice what it juxtaposes. I don't have the full context so not really sure if this refers to a polity or just the literal ground.
AEs were fully capable of prefixing glyphs for land to KM.t and did so as seen here.
In the above two examples, both signifying land of the Black community, we find two different glyphs for land use simultaneously. The 't' suffix has nothing to do with ta as ta plainly preceeds KM.t.[nwt] in each phrase.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have to agree with this Asar guy. Black nation relating to skin among a region of black people makes no sense.
But whom am I. Not a linguist surely. But I will read on, pardon the interuption.
Great topic this should be on ESR.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: . . . Black in reference to the people makes no sense when they are the sovereign rulers of the nation among other Black nations at the time. . . . .
I've been studying this issue for years and have yet to come across ANY ancient Egyptian texts that discuss ANYthing in regards to how they feel about their Black skins. .
One more thing. I just uploaded a pic of Rameses smiting Asiatics on ESR, from Britannica. Blow up the pic it is amazing. Anways - Rameses is of the same color as the Asiatics but their feature is "typical" hook nose. If fact some of the Asiatics look literally black. But have long straight hair and beard. So even the Asiatics back then are within the classification of black.. . .according to pic.
Posts: 12144 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
By the time KM.t[nwt] is in use the AEs were well aware of who surrounded them.
To their east were a generally lighter people. To their south were an even darker people. To their west were the lightests of peoples.
The above is all considering those eligible for Osirian Resurrection as considered in the Book of Gates.
In the book of gates there are four general folk 1) Romitu 2) Aamu 3) Nehesu 4) Tjemehu
These four are lumped into two main groups by Hor (Heru) who is shepherding the Cattle of Ra. The two main groups are 1) Blacks 2) Reds
Romitu and Nehesu are listed as blacks. Aamw and Temehu are listed as reds.
In the text black and red refer to communities not to the ground. It is dead people being revived in the afterlife to face judgement not inundated land or desert land about to be weighed in the balance.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
You answered my follow up question . . . I think.
When was the name first used? If it was in the beginning ie 1st Dynasty when all(or most) of their neighbors were black then Kemet ie Black Nation does not fit the explanation.
The Plate of Narmer(recently uploaded to ESR) also has Asiatics being trampled on. Seems like AE had serious beef with the Asiatics. LOL.
But seriously, what does "by the time" mean. Since Asiatics were there by the first Dynasty?
In other words when did AE start calling themselves . . .Kmt
Just being the advocate. Getting the facts and relevance
Posts: 12144 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
It's earliest use was in the 11th dynasty. Egypt didn't have a name for 10 dynasty. It was only considered the interior (Hnw).
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
The earliest use of KM.t supposedly refering to Egypt/Egyptians as a country or people is on an inscription from Denderah going back to the 6th Dynasty of the Old Kingdom according to the two Wörterbuch authors Erman and Grapow.
.
@Asar
I read and critiqued the late Mr. Goelet years ago.
This topic of the meaning of KM has been done to death on this forum year after year since 2004.
Some of those threads are in lockdown. Some of those threads are still available.
posted
The problem with the red and black analysis is that in Africa, certain people we in the United States would simply consider "blacks," on the continent they would consider them reds: Fula, Masai, Taureg, etc. By our account, a lot of the Egyptian paintings would have "red" Egyptians while the "true blacks" would be the Nkeshi, Nkesh, Nkweshi (Nhsy).
If km means "black" in regards to skin color, we need something else to verify further this conclusion. In Kenya there is a small confederation of nine villages, called Mji Kenda. There is a group within this confederation called KAUMA. They all belong to a subgroup of families that lived in a town called Mutzi Muiro - "The Black Town."
Now all of these are the pitch blackest individuals in East Africa, yet the town is called The Black Town among nothing but Black people. It can't refer to the skin. There is an Oromo speaking group called CHEMAI which would coincide with the Greek rendering.
It is very complex and I think that examining the other African related languages will better help us here because our notions of race confuses the argument. I think, at this moment, that the different determinatives indicated different words with the same root.
Here are the Libu people, those considered "reds" by the Egyptians:
posted
The internal black/red designations is not an unknown. Again, it's something I explained here and on TNV years ago. A Fulani is not a red in the same sense that a Frenchman is.
===
So you reject the Book of Gates passage where AEs label themselves and Nehesu as members of KM.t[nwt]?
In that sacred afterlife assuring text the DSHR.t[nwt] are considered of different divine genesis and under different divine protection.
AE's considered the blacks as related They didn't see themselves related to the reds.
Anyone looking at any painting of BG4:5s30 can see the obvious skin colour difference. Both sets of reds are much lighter than the AEs no matter whose tomb painting is viewed. In one tomb painting the AEs are depicted the exact same greybrown complexion as the Nehesu.
It's not my job to convince or force agreement. The facts have been laid out. Whether one allows or discards them is up to oneself.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Those are not the Libu people the AEs labeled red. Those are modern people with a confusing caption misidentifying them.
I begin to doubt if there's any familiarity with AE representaions of the Herd of Ra since Temehu in them are nearly always lighter than the Aamw and nowhere near the colour of the moderns in the pic below.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
Here are the Libu people, those considered "reds" by the Egyptians:
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
That 2nd point should end the discussion. You see/hear the "afrocentric" experts talking about the "determinative". blah blah blah.
But if AE referred themselves and Nehesu, in the Book of Gates, as KMt. Then OBVIOUSLY they are NOT talking about land or soil ie Kmt. They are talking about a people.
Thank you for that Sage.
Plus - It proves that AE considered Nehesu of the same kind as themselves. END OF DEBATE.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
1. A Fulani is not a red in the same sense that a Frenchman is.
2. the Book of Gates passage where AEs label themselves and Nehesu as members of KM.t[nwt]?
3. In that sacred afterlife assuring text the DSHR.t[nwt] are considered of different divine genesis and under different divine protection.
AE's considered the blacks as related They didn't see themselves related to the reds.
4. In one tomb painting the AEs are depicted the exact same greybrown complexion as the Nehesu.
* * * * *It's not my job to convince or force agreement. The facts have been laid out. Whether one allows or discards them is up to oneself.* * * * *
Posts: 12144 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Oh. . . . One last thing (walking away -Columbo).
What passage in the Book of Gates?
And permission to post some of this to ESR. Great discussion for those serious about understanding the word, Kmt.
Posts: 12144 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Here again is how linguistics sheds light on this situation. I have many times before demonstrated Egyptian and Yoruba correspondences. Yoruba has the word KMT in its lexicon. The correspondences are as follows:
Egyptic: km/kmt = black Yoruba: agin, ogan, egan = black
Egyptic: km = farm, black land/soil Yoruba: egan = black soil/fertile soil
Here (Egypt) /k/ > (Yoruba) /g/ /m/ > /n/
The Egyptian name 3bjw (Abju/Abydos) indicated the place in the wilderness of the mountain desert on both sides of "the gift of the nile" where Asar (Ashili in ciLuba/Isale in Yoruba/Sheol in Hebrew) the god of the dead lived as Lord of the desolate places which was named "ju" to the Egyptians.
In Yoruba "iju" means jungle" where the farmer had not the threat of desert to contend with (just weeds to deal with). Yoruba "iju" jungle is cognate with Egyptian "ju" mountain and both are really hinting at a primary semantic connotation of the root "wilderness." They are ideophonic variants.
In Egypt the desert is the inhospitable wilderness and to the Yoruba (for farmers) the dark jungle (agin-ju) is the inhospitable wilderness.
The Yoruba "egan" (black/fertile soil) became the Hebrew "gan" (garden) in the garden of Eden. Hebrew gan is Arabic "janna": the garden of gardens is al-janna. Yoruba Muslim vocabulary is "alujonna" = paradise.
Hebrew /g/ = Arabic /j/ = Yoruba /g/ correspondences. Genesis 13:10 says, "Lot lifted up his eyes and saw all the kikkar of the Jordan that it was well watered...like the "gan" of YHWH, like the land of Egypt as you come to Soar."
Could km-t also mean "paradise?" It is clear that no matter where we go in Africa km/gm/gn/jn means black soil, farm/fertile land, cultivated land, garden, and we can add paradise. There are no indications of people in regards to skin color and that's the reality. Check the related languages. The earliest usages are clear: they deal with land. Thus why the N23 determinative was used.
I need to do some more investigation to see if dshr-t is in fact a dialectical variant of two or more terms agglutinated. The beginning /d/ sound could actualy be a /dj/ sound which would correspond to the other variant in Egyptian /ju/ for "wilderness." So it may be plausible, for now, to assume something like: d-shr-t. Will be looking into a -shr- root soon.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Based on this research, I am also contemplating if Kongo is modern-day KMT. In the Egyptian texts there is a rendering of KM that suggests the meaning of "god" (the unknowable). Budge in his Book of the Dead Dictionary has a rendering of the place-name KMT with a "god/deity/ntr" determinative.
It is said that the word Kongo is a word, on one level, meaning God. It also means "forest" as Dr. Fu-Kiau mentions in African Cosmology of the Bantu Kongo. We know Kikongo and Yoruba are related languages based on being in the Niger-Congo family.
As demonstrated above, Egan is the Yoruba word for Egyptian KM-t. A word for farm in the Tshiluba language (from which Kikongo derived) is called KANGA.
Both roots for Kongo and Kanga is -kn- with the -go/-ga suffix. The word kan-ga coincides with Egyptian km (farm) and Yoruba egan (-g-n)fertile soil. Since Kongo means, on one level, forests, it would coincide as well with the Yoruba "aginju" (agin-iju) [dark jungle].
Kon-go (k-n-g) Agin-ju (g-n-j)
All common sound shifts. If this pans out to be right, then Kongo is the modern name for KMT.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12144 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
So now address Km.t with the Mfumu/bukulu/ndele (ntr) determinative in the Rau Nu Prt Hrw and explain it using your logic.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
But if Black was the sacred color amongst Kemites ie the color of perfection then why not apply that to themselves and their land..black is beautiful as per us moderns(AAs)..black is secred as per the Kemites.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
This is a misconception of the historical record. Because contrary to popular African American belief, red and white is also sacred colors in African systems (thus White-upper Egypt, Red-lower Egyp). Red and White are usually associated with ancestors and initiation respectively. Although there are negative connotations of red in Egyptian literature, those same terms demonstrate positive affirmations of the same terms (i.e. dshr).
The issue of whether black, red, white, green, etc. are sacred colors are irrelevant. The glyphs are precise and irregardless of the glyphs the related African languages speak for themselves. Unless one wants to argue that KMT is an independent innovation in the Egyptian language, one has no argument.
The earliest uses demonstrated by two people on this forum from different sources clearly demonstrate that LAND is the meaning, not people. From my memory I think the charge against Diop was that the KMT with the people determinative was only used once or twice in the remaining records, with the vast majority being kmt niw.t.
Unless one is prepared to dismiss the comparative method, one cannot justify Black people for KMT, but cultivated land/farm or country, nation, city or village. That's the reality in the other related languages.
Here is an example of some meaning of sacred colors in African cosmogony and philosophy in Kikongo (a related language to kikami/Egyptian) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ5Cz4VPaG0Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well yes Kikongo agrees with the Kemmau in that the color Black is of resurrection(life/of the living) see the resurrected pharaoh TutankAmun
The good things were Black the bad were Red..it is not so difficult for me to understand that they would apply the color onto themselves and their land.. Ta Mari the"good"land the "Black"land vs the "Red"land the desert bad lands..while they are the "good people" the black people vs the bad people the red ones..like Seth.
And they were not the only ones in ancient times to recognized themselves as Blacks...the Sumerians sag-ga (The black headed ones ) and maybe some Indians did the same see Marco Polo.
And they did this while surrounded by other people who looked no different than themselves and they weren't being racial chauvinist..atleast I don't think so.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
The limitations in your analysis is that in the ancient Egyptian records, the color red is also seen with reverence. People only discuss red in regards to negative but totally forget it in the positive. I will post the ancient Egyptian terminology in a bit.
I also posted the link to demonstrate that Black is not the only sacred color in Africa. ALL African spiritual systems, in their practices and ceremonies, wear white. When dealing with ancestors, they usually utilize the colors of Red or White and would not use Black.
The metaphor of Black deals with a common theme across Africa with blackness being the source, the generative powers of the universe from which things manifest. Thus why ALL over Africa, as I have demonstrated, you see the association of the same root for Black with the same root for CULTIVATED LAND/SOIL/FARM.
There is a KMT as well that stands for only upper egypt. Is that place Blacker than all spots in the Black land? What about Km Wr, the lake? Is it a Black lake? More to come.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
"
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic