posted
It seems the Fulani are everything and every people.
The only thing Fulani are not is the descendants of Green Sahara SE Algerian pastoralists (displaying cultural traits nearly identical to later Cattle Fulani) who over the centuries after the drying of the Sahara drifted southwest toward the Senegal.
That's too easy direct and sensible.
No.
Fulani are Tjehenu. Fulani are Egyptians. Fulani are Pelestim. Fulani are Ethiopians. Fulani are Somalis. Fulani are Tutsi. Fulani are Arabs.
Fulani are anything but "indigenous" West Africans linguistically related to the Serere and Wolof -- who likewise speak Atlantic languages of Niger-Congo -- but infused with a Zenaga substratum (Banu Warith).
If a people do not call themselves Fulbe and a people do not speak Fulfulde/Pulaar then that people are not Fulani, period.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think because people don't understand don't understand the nature of linguistics, people get confused. For instance, one can demonstrate conclusively that Kikongo and Amazulu are branches of Tshiluba. It is the same language with 70% of shared vocabulary. They spread over central and south Africa and regardless, even if the language has slightly changed, they are the same people.
As Cambpell-Dunn has argued, the same as Winters, Bernal, Diop and others, that they FULA-NI lived in the Sahara (with other Atlantic and Kwa, Niger-Congo speakers) before it became desert. During desertification they spread out back into southwest Africa, north Africa, east Africa and some went further east, and others (by boat) into the Aegean.
Did they ALL move in one migration? No. But we can demonstrate that these Fulani (language, customs, motifs) existed in several places in Africa: just like they do today (east AND west Africa). What do you expect from a pastorial, migrating people?
It's no different from the ancient Nigerian Batwa (Nkwa Nchi) of Ikom (Igbo-land) whose "ichi" marks and symbols we can find in Nigeria, India, Crete and even Scotland (oghem scripts).
Do they really "stop" being a people because some of them moved and others stayed? The problem is others are trying to assert ORIGINS in places other than West Africa as if that is needed to make the connections. It is these definable connections that make people reach towards that conclusion.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
There is NOTHING exceptional or special about the Fulani (Paal) people. They are no more nor less remarkable than any other African ethnic group; any such distinction resides only within the minds of the members of their respective ethnicity. There is, therefore, no such thing as "Fulani madness"
a) The Paal are NOT to be confused with the Tjehenu or "Blue people", who were the ancestors of the Tuareg...
b) The Paal formed an ethnic component of the multi-ethnic nationality to whom we now refer to as "Ancient Egyptians"
c) The Pelestim??? (Paal stm???)
d) There are indeed Paal settlements in Ethiopia, just as there are Oromo, Amhara, Tigrinya, Shanqella(sic!),...
e) The Somal people are a homogeneous, yet fractuous African ethnic group, yet there are Paal in Somalia
f) The Tutsi are NOT Paal
g) The Arabs are a multi-ethnic, multi-racial nationality
...this topic is pointless...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Wally wrote: The Somal people are a homogeneous, yet fractuous African ethnic group, yet there are Paal in Somalia
No they are not, in somalia there is only one language and one people, no fulani language is spoken there.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
As far as I can see, the main thing discussed on this site has to deal with origins , not what Fulbe obviously are in the present day context. A piece of roughly dated rock art, depicting an already established people and culture does little in regard to the origin question standing on it's own. Deciphering origins takes a "multi" approach with regard to ONE ethnic group. The exact same has been discussed with other groups such as Yoruba, Igbo, Akan, Zaghawa, Wolof and so forth by people who are actually of that ethny here.
Even if one wants to posit that Fulbe originated on the Arabian peninsula (I posit Nile Valley or near it in Nabta Playa/Bir Kesieba as "cattle people"), it would be foolhardy to then claim modern Fulbe are "arabs" in the present day context. Especially such a widely dispersed people who are mainly now linked by culture as Hampate Ba explained.
Sigh...the OP has designed the thread to devolve into the usual internet pee-wee football game of blue team vs. red team instead of fruitful discussion.
I'll step aside and get my popcorn ready.
back at ya!
Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Does anyone have proof that the Fulani as a tribe called Fulani or Fula, etc. existed before the 7th century? I think what's easier, more direct, and more sensible is to let the Fulani be what their forefathers said that they are.
Look at the chart here and observe what the Fulani have always said about their origin:
Look at what the Fulani said - not what others said. Why can't we just let the Fulani be what they said they are??? Wouldn't that be easier, more direct, and more sensible?
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote: From the opening post: If a people do not call themselves Fulbe and a people do not speak Fulfulde/Pulaar then that people are not Fulani, period.
Some of you just can't get it. Some of you will never get it. Some of you don't wanna get it.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
The malady inflicts all those failing to recognize Fulani as West Africa originated people speaking Fulfulde/Pulaar who since Islam have drifted from Senegal/Mauritania westward as far as Eritrea and Saudi Arabi, in consequence of Hajj.
What there is no such thing as is PAAL, apparently a freshly made up word serving as further symptom of Fulani Madness that mental illness suffered by non- Fulani who would use the Fulani to serve their own pet theory.
The very point of this topic is to unmask such irrelevancies as Fulani as any and everything except what they are.
The only origin absurdity so far missing is that Fulani do descend from one Titus Pullo.
quote:Originally posted by Wally: ... There is, therefore, no such thing as "Fulani madness"
. . . .
b) The Paal formed an ethnic component of the multi-ethnic nationality to whom we now refer to as "Ancient Egyptians"
...this topic is pointless...
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:there is no such thing as is PAAL, apparently a freshly made up word serving as further symptom of Fulani Madness that mental illness suffered by non- Fulani who would use the Fulani to serve their own pet theory.
a) Peul, Pel, Paal are different ways of writing the SAME word, and NONE of these words are "made up."
b) NO African American is a non-Fulani; virtually EVERY African American has Fulani ancestry...
c) There is NOTHING exceptional or special about the Fulani (Peul, Pel, Paal) people. They are no more nor less remarkable than any other African ethnic group; any such distinction resides only within the minds of the members of their respective ethnicity (such as first appearing on the planet in West Africa!).
...this topic is pointless... and I'm done with it.Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Wow I don't see no ''origin'' fuss about Congo or Zimbabwean people. It's always the elongated or intermediate types that get claimed. I wonder what they'd make of these discussions Oh well.. Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Wow I don't see no ''origin'' fuss about Congo or Zimbabwean people. It's always the elongated or intermediate types that get claimed. I wonder what they'd make of these discussions Oh well..
Since when are Fulbe "elongated" or "intermediate"?? This some sort of delineator from other West African people?
As stated earlier
quote:The exact same has been discussed with other groups such as Yoruba, Igbo, Akan, Zaghawa, Wolof and so forth by people who are actually of that ethny here.
Perhaps you weren't around then as indeed nothing is special in that regard with regard to Fulbe. Origin discussions are always more lively no matter what people it is.
As regards to the topic, as was hashed previously in the 20 page thread of '09, sanity can be found from the likes of Aboubacry Moussa Lam, Chiek Anta Diop, Yoro Dyao, Babacar Sall, et al along with other evidences observed and discussed. Madness can stay here with the Haabe , self-appointed fake authorities with boxed-in, self-serving definitions on "origins" and the like.
Beautifully singing the praises from Fouta Tooro to Macina and Mopti, Sekou Amadou to Amadou Sekou. This rest is objective internet posturing not seen in the real world with regard to said origins. Stepping out. Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Wow I don't see no ''origin'' fuss about Congo or Zimbabwean people. It's always the elongated or intermediate types that get claimed
Well from my little piece of green colored rock called Jamaica called we never heard anything about no Fulani but they give nuff respect to Ethiopians..but claim decent whether true or not to Ashanti and Kromanti..and some beat drums called Bongo and said them come from the Congo http://svr1.cg971.fr/lameca/dossiers/musique_marronne/eng/p2.htm
But the Fulani seems nice enough..African folks a African folks... Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Gaul: Since when are Fulbe "elongated" or "intermediate"?? [Confused] This some sort of delineator from other West African people?
I'm sure you are aware of the more narrow faced and often medium/narrow nosed morphology of many Fulani. If we can't even reach a consensus on that elementary, basic fact, how are we ever going to settle the more complex matters..?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Wow I don't see no ''origin'' fuss about Congo or Zimbabwean people. It's always the elongated or intermediate types that get claimed
Well from my little piece of green colored rock called Jamaica called we never heard anything about no Fulani but they give nuff respect to Ethiopians..but claim decent whether true or not to Ashanti and Kromanti..and some beat drums called Bongo and said them come from the Congo http://svr1.cg971.fr/lameca/dossiers/musique_marronne/eng/p2.htm
But the Fulani seems nice enough..African folks a African folks...
Yes, hence bobo shanti.. Let me add to my original statement:
It's always the elongated or intermediate types and populations with seemingly non-African and/or ''higher'' cultural traits that get claimed.Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote: It's always the elongated or intermediate types and populations with seemingly non-African and/or ''higher'' cultural traits that get claimed.
Well that's depends on who is doing the claiming because such as I pointed out is not univeresal..and higher cultural traits ?? I don't see how the Fulanis are more culturally developed than the Akan or the Congo..perhaps you mean that because they did not have letters or something like that?? But they built their cities carry on long distance trade and made cultural impact near and far..see Ashanti Gold weights..as mimiac devices, But this is not to start a cultural war between Akan/Congo vs Sahel groups..
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
^I was referring to the Ashanti kingdom. One of the earliest in West Africa.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
Why can't everyone just accept that and get over it? I don't understand the reluctance (or outright refusal) to accept their Arab origin. Is it political? Racial? I don't understand.
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Your positions have been demolished (all of them) in the other thread, and you show no signs of even understanding the foundations used to come to the indigenous fulani conclusion, let alone refraning from using outdated methods such as local oral traditions/foreign oral traditions. Nothing you refer to is from someone respectable, and you have even questioned the usefulness of genetics.
And then you proceed to accuse others of having a wall in their head?
Why should you not fall under the definition of a troll?
-You rarely answer all questions forwarded to you -You reply selectively -You keep spouting your agenda that has been demonstrated to be defunct by multiple posters
Go back to your social circle where your assertions will be accepted without proper scrutiny, and come back when you are ready to confront multi disciplinary research that has accumulated so far.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Kalonji: Your positions have been demolished (all of them) in the other thread, and you show no signs of even understanding the foundations used to come to the indigenous fulani conclusion, let alone refraning from using outdated methods such as local oral traditions/foreign oral traditions. Nothing you refer to is from someone respectable, and you have even questioned the usefulness of genetics.
And then you proceed to accuse others of having a wall in their head?
Why should you not fall under the definition of a troll?
-You rarely answer all questions forwarded to you -You reply selectively -You keep spouting your agenda that has been demonstrated to be defunct by multiple posters
Go back to your social circle where your assertions will be accepted without proper scrutiny, and come back when you are ready to confront multi disciplinary research that has accumulated so far.
So that's your response to my question???
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
^Yes, and your response above is exactly what I meant with ''selectively replying''.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
Your linked source http://www.jamtan.com/jamtan/fulani.cfm?chap=2&linksPage=211 is making claims by mostly European observers..who had in mind the Hamitic concept based on their slender builds,angular features..and sometimes liter-skinned complexion..we have subsequently move beyond that as we have genetics and linguistics
Abstract
Despite the large size of the contemporary nomadic Fulani population (roughly 13 million people), the genetic diversity and degree of differentiation of Fulanis compared to other sub-Saharan populations remain unknown. We sampled four Fulani nomad populations (n = 186) in three countries of sub-Saharan Africa (Chad, Cameroon, and Burkina Faso) and analyzed sequences of the first hypervariable segment of the mitochondrial DNA. Most of the haplotypes belong to haplogroups of West African origin, such as L1b, L3b, L3d, L2b, L2c, and L2d (79.6% in total), which are all well represented in each of the four geographically separated samples The haplogroups of Western Eurasian origin, such as J1b, U5, H, and V, were also detected but in rather low frequencies (8.1% in total). As in African hunter-gatherers (Pygmies and Khoisan) and some populations from central Tunisia (Kesra and Zriba), three of the Fulani nomad samples do not reveal significant negative values of Fu's selective neutrality test. The multidimensional scaling of FST genetic distances of related sub-Saharan populations and the analysis of molecular variance (AMOVA) show clear and close relationships between all pairs of the four Fulani nomad samples, irrespective of their geographic origin. The only group of nomadic Fulani that manifests some similarities with geographically related agricultural populations (from Guinea-Bissau and Nigeria) comes from Tcheboua in northern Cameroon. http://www.mamiwata.com/fulani.html The high-lighted points tells us that the Fulanis are in the main a West-African people.. now they do carry J1b, U5, H, and V which indicates some Eurasian genes amongst them(mostly likely stemming from Islamic contact era) but they are in the main West-Africans.
They linguistically Fula belongs to the Atlantic branch of the Niger-Congo language family.
The above is showing that they have been in West Africa for a very long time leaving their art on the rocks in Southern Algeria.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Awlaadberry
Your linked source http://www.jamtan.com/jamtan/fulani.cfm?chap=2&linksPage=211 is making claims by mostly European observers..who had in mind the Hamitic concept based on their slender builds,angular features..and sometimes liter-skinned complexion..we have subsequently move beyond that as we have genetics and linguistics
Abstract
Despite the large size of the contemporary nomadic Fulani population (roughly 13 million people), the genetic diversity and degree of differentiation of Fulanis compared to other sub-Saharan populations remain unknown. We sampled four Fulani nomad populations (n = 186) in three countries of sub-Saharan Africa (Chad, Cameroon, and Burkina Faso) and analyzed sequences of the first hypervariable segment of the mitochondrial DNA. Most of the haplotypes belong to haplogroups of West African origin, such as L1b, L3b, L3d, L2b, L2c, and L2d (79.6% in total), which are all well represented in each of the four geographically separated samples The haplogroups of Western Eurasian origin, such as J1b, U5, H, and V, were also detected but in rather low frequencies (8.1% in total). As in African hunter-gatherers (Pygmies and Khoisan) and some populations from central Tunisia (Kesra and Zriba), three of the Fulani nomad samples do not reveal significant negative values of Fu's selective neutrality test. The multidimensional scaling of FST genetic distances of related sub-Saharan populations and the analysis of molecular variance (AMOVA) show clear and close relationships between all pairs of the four Fulani nomad samples, irrespective of their geographic origin. The only group of nomadic Fulani that manifests some similarities with geographically related agricultural populations (from Guinea-Bissau and Nigeria) comes from Tcheboua in northern Cameroon. http://www.mamiwata.com/fulani.html The high-lighted points tells us that the Fulanis are in the main a West-African people.. now they do carry J1b, U5, H, and V which indicates some Eurasian genes amongst them(mostly likely stemming from Islamic contact era) but they are in the main West-Africans.
They linguistically Fula belongs to the Atlantic branch of the Niger-Congo language family.
The above is showing that they have been in West Africa for a very long time leaving their art on the rocks in Southern Algeria.
Brada,
I sent the link for you all to see what the Fulani themselves have been saying about their origin - not to see what the Euripean observers say. You are looking at the wrong column in the chart.
Concerning the paintings, where does it say that they are Fulani?
As for these DNA tests, WHO IS BEING COMPARED TO WHOM. Because their DNA matches with "other groups in the area" doesn't say much. Who are these other groups and where are they from originally? And which Arabs doesn't their DNA match with? Do you understand my questions and the reason I'm asking them?
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
[QUOTE] Concerning the paintings, where does it say that they are Fulani?
As for these DNA tests, WHO IS BEING COMPARED TO WHOM. Because their DNA matches with "other groups in the area" doesn't say much. Who are these other groups and where are they from originally? And which Arabs doesn't their DNA match with? Do you understand my questions and the reason I'm asking them?
Well it is found in Southern Algeria same locations as the ones on your link but not posted but can you not see the same totemic hairstyles of the people who still lived in that general area? these [B]J1b, U5, H, and V shows that yes there was mixture..small but still there
For Yemeni dna
The rapid mutation rate of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and Y-chromosome microsatellites permits estimates of lineage expansion age and of the most probable geographic origin of these expansions [16,17]. Only two studies regarding the Arabian Peninsula have been based on mtDNA. Lineage classification of a small sample of 29 Bedouins [18] revealed that 25 (86%) had a Eurasian origin, two (7%) belonged to the sub-Saharan Africa L0 and L2 haplogroups, and two were left undetermined. A study of 115 Yemeni mtDNAs showed that Eurasian-specific and African-specific lineages existed in almost equal proportion in that southern Arabian Peninsula sample [19
Notice it is almost the reversed distribution 8% in the case of the Fulani Eurasian genes and 7% among south Arabians.
Again there is notthing posted here that suggest noo..Eurasian mixture but wholesale immigration??..if we reverse the situation for a bit the African dna found in Yemen does that suggest Yemenis are basically west Africans L2...but what it does show that there was a lot of crossings from the Horn into Arabia. http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/7/32 please check out the link^
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Awlaadberry
[QUOTE] Concerning the paintings, where does it say that they are Fulani?
As for these DNA tests, WHO IS BEING COMPARED TO WHOM. Because their DNA matches with "other groups in the area" doesn't say much. Who are these other groups and where are they from originally? And which Arabs doesn't their DNA match with? Do you understand my questions and the reason I'm asking them?
Well it is found in Southern Algeria same locations as the ones on your link but not posted but can you not see the same totemic hairstyles of the people who still lived in that general area? these [B]J1b, U5, H, and V shows that yes there was mixture..small but still there
For Yemeni dna
The rapid mutation rate of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and Y-chromosome microsatellites permits estimates of lineage expansion age and of the most probable geographic origin of these expansions [16,17]. Only two studies regarding the Arabian Peninsula have been based on mtDNA. Lineage classification of a small sample of 29 Bedouins [18] revealed that 25 (86%) had a Eurasian origin, two (7%) belonged to the sub-Saharan Africa L0 and L2 haplogroups, and two were left undetermined. A study of 115 Yemeni mtDNAs showed that Eurasian-specific and African-specific lineages existed in almost equal proportion in that southern Arabian Peninsula sample [19
Notice it is almost the reversed distribution 8% in the case of the Fulani Eurasian genes and 7% among south Arabians.
Again there is notthing posted here that suggest noo..Eurasian mixture but wholesale immigration??..if we reverse the situation for a bit the African dna found in Yemen does that suggest Yemenis are basically west Africans L2...but what it does show that there was a lot of crossings from the Horn into Arabia. http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/7/32 please check out the link^
What must be understood is that those bediouns who were tested where more than likely very mixed with non-Arab Roman, Persian, Turkish, etc blood and are not good representatives od Arab DNA. And what scientists are calling "African" DNA is probably what should be called Arab DNA. This won't be clear to scientist until they understand that the pure Arab type is no different in appearance from the "East African" type.
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:his won't be clear to scientist until they understand that the pure Arab type is no different in appearance from the "East African" type.
Please do not mixed phenotype and genotype that's one of the things that trip alotta people up when they start getting into it for example This^ is the Soloman Island Prime Minister he is clearly black but Asian..not African different genetic pool from say this guy the Vice President of the Democratic Republic of Congo Yerodia^ who is African and equally Black with rounded features..The Soloman Prime Minister is closer genetically to The Chinese Vice President Zeng Qinghong than he is to the vice Premier of the Congo.
We had long very heated on going arguments about this very topic with some of the other board members pro and con.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well with the Fulani Madness I've seen around here lately the only thing keeping ol' Titus from being our kind of Pullo is that on cable he was white.
If someone here had came across him in J Ceasar's writings they would've latched onto his gentilicium and made a Fulani out of him without any other evidence.
BTW - 19th century/early 20th century Africanist did consider an alternative that the Fulani were fathered by lost members of a Roman legion that supposedly ventured to Agisymba.
Ah, so many have suffered this Fulani Madness. So many still suffer Fulani Madness even now.
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: AlTakruri!! Hah hah Lol you had me going for a sec.
quote:The only origin absurdity so far missing is that Fulani do descend from one Titus Pullo.
...
From the H.B.O series Rome..
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote: Originally posted by Awlaadberry: What must be understood is that those bediouns who were tested where more than likely very mixed with non-Arab Roman, Persian, Turkish, etc blood and are not good representatives od Arab DNA. And what scientists are calling "African" DNA is probably what should be called Arab DNA. This won't be clear to scientist until they understand that the pure Arab type is no different in appearance from the "East African" type.
Then this discussion should be over according to your own words. Note:
The most numerous haplogroups are L3b (determined by the motif 16124, 16223, 16278, and 16362) and L3d (determined by the motif 16124 and 16223); these two haplogroups could not be distinguished from each other when only the HVS-I sequence was available. However, because both share the same geographic origin in West Africa,
The second well-diversified haplogroup found in the Fulani nomads sample is L1b (50 sequences, 10 haplotypes), with the determining HVS-I motif 16126, 16187, 16189, 16223, 16264, 16270, 16278, and 16311, the origin of which also lies in West Africa (Salas et al. 2002, 2004).
All the other haplogroups identified are represented by conspicuously lower numbers; the most numerous among them, comparatively speaking, are L2b and L2c, which are also of West African origin.
Put that in your pipe too.. since the metaphorical tabacco of the first study and rock painting was clearly not enough.. Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by The Gaul: Madness can stay here with the Haabe , self-appointed fake authorities with boxed-in, self-serving definitions on "origins" and the like.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Fact is most Muslim Fulani do posit partial Arab origin.
Then, origin traditions held by Toroodbe and Wodaabe give themselves an ultimately biblical Levantine home.
Most Wodaabe know nothing of either Jew origin or partial Arab origin. For them and even other Fulani a water spirit enters the picture, sometimes even in the Jew or Arab stories. These traditions are not supported by genetics, linquistics, or archaeology.
Few on this forum come from a people with a living tradition and so understand little to nothing of the value of tradition or what truths (not facts) tradition speaks to.
Science couldn't care less about Pullo knowledge of self or for that matter any people's folklore. That's outside the realm of science.
I am content to leave the two in opague compartments.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Awlaadberry
Your linked source http://www.jamtan.com/jamtan/fulani.cfm?chap=2&linksPage=211 is making claims by mostly European observers..who had in mind the Hamitic concept based on their slender builds,angular features..and sometimes liter-skinned complexion..we have subsequently move beyond that as we have genetics and linguistics
Abstract
Despite the large size of the contemporary nomadic Fulani population (roughly 13 million people), the genetic diversity and degree of differentiation of Fulanis compared to other sub-Saharan populations remain unknown. We sampled four Fulani nomad populations (n = 186) in three countries of sub-Saharan Africa (Chad, Cameroon, and Burkina Faso) and analyzed sequences of the first hypervariable segment of the mitochondrial DNA. Most of the haplotypes belong to haplogroups of West African origin, such as L1b, L3b, L3d, L2b, L2c, and L2d (79.6% in total), which are all well represented in each of the four geographically separated samples The haplogroups of Western Eurasian origin, such as J1b, U5, H, and V, were also detected but in rather low frequencies (8.1% in total). As in African hunter-gatherers (Pygmies and Khoisan) and some populations from central Tunisia (Kesra and Zriba), three of the Fulani nomad samples do not reveal significant negative values of Fu's selective neutrality test. The multidimensional scaling of FST genetic distances of related sub-Saharan populations and the analysis of molecular variance (AMOVA) show clear and close relationships between all pairs of the four Fulani nomad samples, irrespective of their geographic origin. The only group of nomadic Fulani that manifests some similarities with geographically related agricultural populations (from Guinea-Bissau and Nigeria) comes from Tcheboua in northern Cameroon. http://www.mamiwata.com/fulani.html The high-lighted points tells us that the Fulanis are in the main a West-African people.. now they do carry J1b, U5, H, and V which indicates some Eurasian genes amongst them(mostly likely stemming from Islamic contact era) but they are in the main West-Africans.
They linguistically Fula belongs to the Atlantic branch of the Niger-Congo language family.
The above is showing that they have been in West Africa for a very long time leaving their art on the rocks in Southern Algeria.
Brada-Anansi...
From what I understand the authors of that study made it pretty obvious that the "Eurasian" tagged genes (8.1%)wern't in fact introduced during the Islamic area or by people we consider non-African but by "Fulani like peoples", i.e. Tuareg other Berbers. And from what I understand many bloggers and scientists are starting to doubt the non-African origin of many of these eurasian tagged genes, for example the recent doubt of the refugium theory.
"The far from negligible presence of some haplogroups from western Eurasia (8.1%), such as U5, U6, and J1, is not particularly surprising in a sub-Saharan context because these haplogroups currently appear in North Africa. This may suggest an ancient origin of the nomads in the more northerly mountain massifs of the Central Sahara (Dupuy 1999). According to our own anthropological examination (data not shown), the non-sub-Saharan haplogroups are not carried by "West Eurasian-like" individuals, as might be anticipated, but were rather detected in common "Fulani type" peoples."
Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
If we aren't accepting traditions of origin, there is no need in discussing anything about origins because the very idea of the existence of peoples and tribes and ethnic groups comes from traditions. The division of peoples into descendants of Sam, Ham, and Japheth comes from "traditions". The existence of anything called Arab, Hebrew, Egyptian, Semite, Hamite, etc is based on "traditions" Without "tradition" scientists would have nothing at all to work with. This "science" will go nowhere until until it gives more respect to "tradition" and the science of genealogy.
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
In a multi-disciplinary approach no one methodology outranks the other. Each is taken for what it offers.
Individually, a methodology either supports a premise or it doesn't support a premise. Throwing away evidence which doesn't support one's premise is not the way to go about ascertaining a people's origins.
If there is a concensus, good.
If there is a majority, good.
If there is a plurality, good.
A stand alone minority? Not so good.
Tradition is not the final say so.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Awlaadberry
quote:his won't be clear to scientist until they understand that the pure Arab type is no different in appearance from the "East African" type.
Please do not mixed phenotype and genotype that's one of the things that trip alotta people up when they start getting into it for example This^ is the Soloman Island Prime Minister he is clearly black but Asian..not African different genetic pool from say this guy the Vice President of the Democratic Republic of Congo Yerodia^ who is African and equally Black with rounded features..The Soloman Prime Minister is closer genetically to The Chinese Vice President Zeng Qinghong than he is to the vice Premier of the Congo.
We had long very heated on going arguments about this very topic with some of the other board members pro and con.
Brada,
One's physical appearance comes from his/her genes.
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The nrY Chromosome used in population genetics is not a gene.
quote:Originally posted by awlaadberry: One's physical appearance comes from his/her genes.
What do you mean? Are you saying that we don't get our physical characteristics from genes, which are inherited? Do you agree that a population has a specific genetic constitution and that members of a population have a similar look? Do you agree that any deviation from that general look is the result of mixing from outside the population?
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Awlaadberry
quote:his won't be clear to scientist until they understand that the pure Arab type is no different in appearance from the "East African" type.
Please do not mixed phenotype and genotype that's one of the things that trip alotta people up when they start getting into it for example This^ is the Soloman Island Prime Minister he is clearly black but Asian..not African different genetic pool from say this guy the Vice President of the Democratic Republic of Congo Yerodia^ who is African and equally Black with rounded features..The Soloman Prime Minister is closer genetically to The Chinese Vice President Zeng Qinghong than he is to the vice Premier of the Congo.
We had long very heated on going arguments about this very topic with some of the other board members pro and con.
What made the Soloman Prime Minister's and DRC President's hair curly and what made the Chinese Vice President's hair straight? What made the Soloman Prime Minister's and the DRC President's skin brown and what made the Chinese Vice President's skin light? Isn't it genes?
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:One's physical appearance comes from his/her genes.
But it comes from very few genes and in their case, not the same genes. Look up the term "convergent evolution". The Solomon Prime Minister has more genes in common with the Chinese vice president as most genes aren't for the purpose of expressing phenotype.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Awlaadberry
quote:his won't be clear to scientist until they understand that the pure Arab type is no different in appearance from the "East African" type.
Please do not mixed phenotype and genotype that's one of the things that trip alotta people up when they start getting into it for example This^ is the Soloman Island Prime Minister he is clearly black but Asian..not African different genetic pool from say this guy the Vice President of the Democratic Republic of Congo Yerodia^ who is African and equally Black with rounded features..The Soloman Prime Minister is closer genetically to The Chinese Vice President Zeng Qinghong than he is to the vice Premier of the Congo.
We had long very heated on going arguments about this very topic with some of the other board members pro and con.
What made the Soloman Prime Minister's and DRC President's hair curly and what made the Chinese Vice President's hair straight? What made the Soloman Prime Minister's and the DRC President's skin brown and what made the Chinese Vice President's skin light? Isn't it genes?
Chant my brother, teach them what IronLion couldnot get into their heads.
Salaam
IronLion
Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:One's physical appearance comes from his/her genes.
But it comes from very few genes and in their case, not the same genes. Look up the term "convergent evolution". The Solomon Prime Minister has more genes in common with the Chinese vice president as most genes aren't for the purpose of expressing phenotype.
Can you identify the genes which gave the two black men their colour? Are those genes dis-similar?
What gave them their nappy hair? Are they dis-similar?
If they are not dis-similar are they genetically related?
Is Sickle cell hemoglobin genetically inherited? Is sickle cell a blood gene? Does it occur in New Guinea? Does it occur in Nigeria?
Why don't Japanese have sickle cell genes? And yet they are closer to New Guineans than Nigerians? Does that make literal sense?
I do have a problem with that proposition!
Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Here is a publication from Keita et al.; it pretty much goes over the points that I had maintained here and posted on my blog a year before this publication came out...
Letter to the Editor: Commentary on the Fulani—History, Genetics, and Linguistics, an Adjunct to Hassan et al., 2008
AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY(2010)
Keita et al.
" In their recent work, Hassan et al. (2008) describe and analyze patterns of biallelic Y chromosome variation in diverse groups currently resident in the Republic of Sudan. They successfully historicize many of the populations in their study and do not interpret data in static racio-typological terms, something to be rejected (Keita and Kittles, 1997), and largely avoid the problems noted by MacEachern (2000, 2001) and Pluciennik (2001). Hassan et al. show the human biogeography of Sudan to have been impacted by Arabic speakers and other non- Africans who arrived primarily in the Islamic period from Asia via Egypt and interacted in various ways with local peoples (Cunnison, 1966; Haaland, 1969; Bayoumi et al., 1985; Bayoumi and Saha, 1987; Saha and El Seikh (sic), 1987; Holl, 2003). Their analysis documents the introgression of M89 lineages into certain populations of northeast Africa, where the indigenous haplogroups are A, B, and E, thus illustrating biological ‘‘levels of history’’— to borrow a concept from Braudel (1982)—which may be useful in thinking about diachronic changes that can occur in populations/regions (Keita, 2005b).
Genetic data have long been used in approaches to explore population history, and their value has generally been recognized at some level, but ‘‘at the same time there are potential problems with these techniques’’ (MacEachern, 2001, p 357). Some of these problems include the over extrapolation of often-limited genetic data, treating gene history as ethnic/population history, assuming deep and near essentialist historical continuity to groups/populations bearing particular names (whether emic or etic), and the incomplete incorporation of data, theory, and arguments from other disciplines such as history, ethnography, historical linguistics, history of ideas, and archaeology into the research design, analyses, and interpretations. Crude empiricism and reductionism have to be avoided in explaining and exploring the biocultural origins of ethnic groups/populations (MacEachern, 2001).
We are interested in exploring the suggestion, made by Hassan et al. (2008, p 321), that the Fulani, as a people— an ethnos, may have had a non-African origin. One of us (FJ) has worked extensively among the Fulani of Liberia, Cameroon, and Nigeria and has some field experience of their ideas of identity, religion, marital beliefs, and practices, which could have a bearing on genetics.
The Fulani number some 30 million live in 17 countries between the Atlantic to Red Sea coasts (Cerny et al., 2006) and are known by a variety of names: e.g., Peul, Fulbe, Fula, Fellata, and Pulaar [also noted in Murdock (1959), MacEachern (2000), and Cerny et al. (2006)]. They call themselves Fulbe, the plural of Pullo in Fulfulde, their language (Greenberg, 1949). Some are urbanites and others cattle pastoralists Stenning, 1957). McIntosh (1998) suggests that the Fulani identity ‘‘crystallized’’ (differentiated) in Futa Toro in the Senegambia region, among populations who migrated from the increasingly arid later Holocene Sahara, analogous to earlier migrations into the Nile Valley (Kuper and Kropelin, 2006). Archaeological evidence from other west African regions is interpreted as indicating either migration or influence from the later Holocene Sahara (e.g. Davies, 1967; Casey, 2005). Researchers in West African history and ethnography note the migration of Fulani from the Senegambia across the Sahel belt from west to east (e.g. Stenning, 1957; Willis, 1978; Hasan and Ogot, 1992; Vansina, 1992). The Fulani are mentioned in older historical works from West Africa [e.g., Sadi’s Tarikh as Sudan, see Hunwick (2003)] and are notable as 18th and 19th century Islamic religious reformers, scholars, and state builders (Vansina, 1992; Boyd, 1994; Hiskett, 1994). There are no documented ancient Fulani communities in Asia.
Hassan et al.’s (2008, p 321) suggestion of a non-African origin for the Fulani is a direct extrapolation based on the predominance (53.8%) of the R1*M173 lineage (an M89 lineage) in a single sample (n 5 26) from Sudan. However, analyses of other samples of Fulani give different results. Here, Y chromosome lineages are discussed in terms of their major markers, which will be understood to include downstream derivatives. For example, M35 will be used to mean both M35* and its derivatives M35/M81, M35/78, etc. In one sample from Guinea Bissau (n 5 59), the markers and frequencies are as follows: M2 275.6%, M35 213.6%, M33 26.8%, and 1.7% each of M75, M91, and M89-derived lineages (Rosa et al., 2007). In another study, based primarily on TaqI 49a, f variants, which can be ‘‘translated’’ into biallelic counterparts, a Fulani (called Peul) sample (n 5 54) from Burkina Faso has these frequencies: M2%–50%, M35 222.1% lineages (Lucotte et al., 2007). A small sample (n 5 20) of Fulbe from one area of the Cameroons has the M33 (E1*) lineage at a frequency of 52% (Scozzari et al., 1997, 1999). Hassan et al.’s sample also has a high percentage of M35 (34.6%). The mix of M2 and M35 lineages, both derivatives of P2 (or PN2) (see dendrogram in Hassan et al.), may reflect the sahara/sahel having served as an interaction zone of populations— a metapopulation which shuffled lineages—in the wetter periods of the early Holocene (Keita, 2005a; Kuper and Kropelin, 2006). The M2 lineage is sometimes almost characterized as being found only associated with the Niger Congo language phylum (Hassan et al., 321), of which Bantu is a subgroup. M2 lineages are found in populations languages from non-Bantu Niger Congo, Nilo-Saharan, and Afro-Asiatic phyla [see discussion in Keita (2005a)], and in high frequencies in West Africa including the Senegambia region Scozzari, 1997, 1999; Lucotte et al., 2007; Rosa et al., 2007). "
"Other genetic data are of interest. Recent mtDNA studies of the Fulani suggest their having broad representation of African haplotypes (specifically, the L megahaplogroup and U6), not found so far in large frequencies outside Africa other than in the various diasporic descendant groups (forced or voluntary) (e.g., Cerny, 2006; Ely et al., 2006, 2007; Rosa et al., 2004; Jackson nd1). Reviews of classical genetic markers also indicate that the Fulani of West Africa are not an anomalous group in that region (see e.g., Hiernaux, 1975) from a narrow biogeographical perspective.
Language affiliation has been frequently documented to parallel genetic patterns in West Africa (Jackson, 1986), although there is no obligatory causation or correlation of language and biology. Throughout their geographical range, the Fulani have retained their language Fulfulde, a member of the West Atlantic or Atlantic-Congo subgroup of the Niger-Congo phylum or quasi-stock (Greenberg, 1963; Nichols, 1997; Williamson and Blench, 2000). The closest relatives of Fulfulde are Serer and Wolof, which are restricted to the Senegambia region of West Africa (Greenberg, 1949; Williamson and Blench, 2000). The linguistic evidence is consistent with the known movements of Fulani from the Senegambia-Guinea region.
The diversity of Y chromosome haplotypes found in Fulani samples is highly variable and is likely explained by ancient and recent events. The more recent political activities of Fulani in the 18th and 19th centuries led to the Fulbeization of various peoples, a process which had not ended by the mid-20th century (Hendrixson, 1980; David and Voas, 1981; Schultz, 1984). The frequencies in Hassan et al.’s sample are consistent with a secondary migration from the Cameroons where the Fulani are known to have bioculturally assimilated various groups (Schultz, 1984), and where there is a notable frequency of R1*M173 in published samples of various ethnolinguistic groups, including some Fulbe (Scozzari, 1997; Cruciani et al., 2002). Genetic drift could also have had a role. Space does not permit further discussion of R1*M173, which has a higher frequency in central Africa than in the Near East (Flores et al., 2005), and which may have come to Africa in a back migration (Cruciani, 2002) during the Late Stone Age, before the emergence of current or ancient African ethnic/linguistic groups/ peoples. R1*M173 became part of an African biocultural evolutionary history, perhaps shaped in part in a later Saharan metapopulation, and apparently later dispersed (along with other lineages) into the ancestral populations of various regions. The evidence supports the Fulbe having emerged in Africa.
It would be of interest in the case of Hassan et al.’s sample to know its members recent family histories, to what degree it was a distinct breeding population or random sample, oral and written histories, paths of migration, clan affiliation, intermarriage patterns, number of loan words in its dialect of Fulfulde (if a community), mitochondrial DNA profile, its subsistence practices (and any changes), and profiles of other Fulani samples from Sudan. Together, these would help in the construction of a narrative of the biocultural history of Fulbe populations in the Sudan. In general, efforts at ethno-population history may benefit from considering when (1) genetic data should be subsumed to, and interpreted in terms of, chronologies or narratives or social structures established by ethnology, climatology, archaeology, history, and linguistics, (2) genetic evidence should be the primary data used to create the framework or narrative, or (3) both nongenetic and genetic information should be used equally in a process of ‘‘reciprocal illumination.’’ A temporal framework is crucial in such work. Ethnogenesis (the emergence of cultural identity) and biogenesis (the emergence of biological traits) are not causal nor necessarily co-terminous or correlated. Populations can change biology and/or culture over time."
Ps: The above of course does not mention a significant telltale sign of the Fulani migration from western/central Africa to Sudan:
To recap, there's something still unmistakable about the Sudanese Fula sample: they retain western African ancestry, as signified by Hg E1-M33, which was absent in all autochthonous Sudanese groups; the only other groups where this marker was implicated in Hassan et al.'s (2008) work, were, well, the well-established west African groups like the Hausa and Wolof. - LinkPosts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:One's physical appearance comes from his/her genes.
But it comes from very few genes and in their case, not the same genes. Look up the term "convergent evolution". The Solomon Prime Minister has more genes in common with the Chinese vice president as most genes aren't for the purpose of expressing phenotype.
But we are speaking about the genes which express phenotype because we are talking about physical characteristics.
Take a look at how close the two areas are to each other. What would make the people so genetically different?
quote: But we are speaking about the genes which express phenotype because we are talking about physical characteristics.
Take a look at how close the two areas are to each other. What would make the people so genetically different?
The answer from what I understand is time the further and longer one travels away from Africa the greater the genetic distance, however physical characteristics can be maintained through similar environment..for example a tropical people will maintain their phenotype if the moved to a similar place..but changes begin to take place in a dis-similar environment it's called micro-evolution,this happens within Africa it self with it's deserts,forested areas,mountains,Savannahs etc.
Doctoris Scientia
quote:From what I understand the authors of that study made it pretty obvious that the "Eurasian" tagged genes (8.1%)wern't in fact introduced during the Islamic area or by people we consider non-African but by "Fulani like peoples", i.e. Tuareg other Berbers. And from what I understand many bloggers and scientists are starting to doubt the non-African origin of many of these eurasian tagged genes, for example the recent doubt of the refugium theory.
Then I stand corrected.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
back at ya!
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
This some sort of delineator from other West African people?
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic