posted
I came across this book when it was mentioned in one of Dana's posts. It's called, "The Unknown Arabs: Clear, Definitive Proof Of the Dark Complexion Of the Original Arabs And the Arab Origin Of the So-Called African Americans and is written by a man who is supposedly a Black Arab (so says Rastawire).
Has anyone actually read this? Possible Dana?
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I read it and I think it is indispensable for anyone interested in how Arabians, north and south, were described by Syrians, Iraqis and other people north of Arabia up until midieval times.
There are a lot of things which I have told Tariq I don't agree with though, such as making entire Central African and Western African groupings into people of Arabian origin.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
Nothing is wrong with it. Some peoples from ancient Arabia settled in Africa and mixed with Africans. Just as more recently some Arabians settled in Syria and Iraq and mixed with Syrians and Iraqi's. It is wrong however to say that populations like the Mande as a whole came from Arabia. On the other hand it is obvious their original ruling classes (Maghira, Zaghwe, Aswanek or Soninke, etc) were peoples of Arabian or Yemenite descent who have mixed with indigenous Africans.
There are populations that probably have descendancy from ancient pre-Islamic Arabians in the Sahel and Sudan. Most Africans however are people who have absorbed such people.
In the book Fulani for example are called "Arabs". Though Fulani have mixed in recent times with Islamic Arabians they are probably ancestral to early Arabian peoples judging from rock art thought to be neolithic in both the Sahara and Arabian desert.
Some Fulani also mixed with the Hudin or (Zaghwe or Zaghawa groups) who settled in Abyssinia in pre-Islamic times from southern Arabia.
The Fellata are mentioned as the Barzu Fulitani of Mauritania caesarea in early neo-Roman texts, and are pictured in Old Kingdom representations of "Libyans".
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Nothing is wrong with it. Some peoples from ancient Arabia settled in Africa and mixed with Africans
this is not tarik berry or the nations intention. there is no mention of mixing of any sort in the western sense. a mande elder told me that he heared from the griot himself say that all the black(african continent) are from the east. i remember reading the jeli(griot) version and it matched that of askia muhammads version. it said they came fom the east as the nation wangara and broke up into the 3 famous empires not nations, empires. dont think arabs (as is widely thought of as being straight haired tanned people)are the only group that represented the populous of the peninsula. have you ever studied himyar language. like jahiz and ibn khaldun says it has nothing to do with arabic at all.himyaris considered themselves himyari not arabs.
quote:It is wrong however to say that populations like the Mande as a whole came from Arabia.
this is subjective and requires an indepth look because we call ourselves americans when asked by other than but do we think ourselves representing the class or sect of society that was the brain child of the name of being american. would the early native americans who never recieved citizenship until the 1900 s actually consider themselves "AMERICAN" would the progenitors african americans consider themselves "AMERICAN" when they didnt recieve citizenship until the 1960 s and technically in the 1800 s. i ask this because this question is presented to me all the time in morocco in which arabs do not consider african ameicans real americans but africans. i have noticed in africa that mannerisms and language rank higher than looks. there are many jet black moroccans but they are considered moroccan because of their language and culture. people actually believe that america is like europe and the rest are recent immigrants.
quote:Most Africans however are people who have absorbed such people.
this would include the nations which make up the progenitors of AA s
[qoute]Though Fulani have mixed in recent times with Islamic Arabians [/quote]have not seen any such claim. uthman dan fodio said thay descend from different groups to generally become the fellata
quote:Some Fulani also mixed with the Hudin or (Zaghwe or Zaghawa groups) who settled in
so does the mande. the fact that the zaghawa or duguwa were spread all the way to the atlantic coast as mentioned by ibn khaldun in which they removed a settlement of jews. most of the saharan groups are black. in morocco that is the detemining factor of being sahrawi or desert person = black. this is from asking the general populous numerous times since it is a colloqial term. another thing saharan groups are dangeous and are not into friendly negotians. their life is raiding and robbing basicilly. not now since nations are stronger than before.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
u have to forgive the book of tariq. it is kinda a estranged subject and sounds like another blacks are not blacks book but his research is really thorough. i see him on too many arabic websites and he uses his material and he murders people because the book does not do justice to what he has in arabic. u have to be arab or learn arabic to really get the juice of his point. he has people copying his material in the arab world. i have met plenty sub saharan arabs from cameroon one fulani and one haddadi who were asfar men(yellow=dark skin)and they agreed to everything tariq mentioned. there is a great ignorance about what an arab is. this is a vey specific knowledge in which is held in arab books of history and dictionaries and poetry and etc. the english book does ont give his justice. tariq is tough in the arabic language and pulls info that is incredible in the fact that he found such info. i think that the issue is that the info he presents is not like the greeks talking about egyptians in when any person can make the text ambiguous even though it is obvious. he brings text of arabs describing themselves with their students who r arabs explaining even more about the meanings of their statements with multitudes of evidences. i used a drop of hjis info before i even heared of him with plenty of known arabs and they were like a robber who got caught in the act. teh evidence is to clear and unambiguous but this will be unheared of to non arabs. another major point he was trying to make was that the vast makority of the groups that make up the origins of the aa s claimed an easten origin.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
I have recently heard of the book and that is only because Dr. Wesley Muhammad quotes this work in his latest book Black Arabia and the African Origins of Islam. I plan on getting the other book soon.
On another note, just because some people claim they came from the east doesn't mean they are arabs.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:On another note, just because some people claim they came from the east doesn't mean they are arabs
this is the very statement tariq was debating. because of certain factors, the actual concept of what an arab is has evolved into what it is today something that it was not back in the day. this statement is very subjective and as one fulani told me "a person is what he wants to be if he speaks their language and marry amongst them" If one just looks back into his own ethnic-nation he will see the evolvement that took place. names changed, standards changed, economy changed, group member qualification changed, language evolved.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
abdulkarem3 wrote: ---------------------------------- whats wrong with west and central africans being from arabia ----------------------------------
Its eyeball anthropology. This dana marniche idiot doesn't think so called "west" and "central" Africans look mixed. You can tell this dana marniche character is just another beatdown AA parroting the racial pseudoscience his/her white owner has taught him/her.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote: Some peoples from ancient Arabia settled in Africa and mixed with Africans.
What do you mean by mixed? How many people from another group does it take to make a population mixed? Give us the numbers.
From a socialogical viewpoint, what group of people from modern times would just give away their women to a group of men from another ethnic group?
In ancient times it was even worse. There were in all likelyhood legal laws that encouraged honor killings. But this assumes that women were free to be with whomever they chose to begin with, which we know was not the case in many/most historical populations. In most populations/ethnic groups young girls were married out anywhere from 10 to 16 years of age.
So how in the world do you expect thinking people to believe that a foreign group of men would just come in and breed with all of another population's girls/women?
Yet still what were the men doing? Did they go without wives while these foreigners took their women. Many marriages had financial overtones/considerations, yet you would have us believe that foreigners would be allowed to have their women?
Your dumb ass deserved this intellectual thrashing.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: On the other hand it is obvious their original ruling classes (Maghira, Zaghwe, Aswanek or Soninke, etc) were peoples of Arabian or Yemenite descent who have mixed with indigenous Africans.
This is 19th century colonial propaganda. It would be more proper to say that people of Arabian descent married with the ruling class. People with noble blood marry other people with noble blood. Europeans in the 16th century recognized and respected nobility in Africa. How could Arabs manage to make themselves the ruling class of African societies?
The Zafun king apparently managed to impress the Muslims and Ibn Sa'id calls the Zafun pagans
"Medieval West Africa: Views From Arab Scholars and Merchants"
The king of Zafun is stronger than the veiled people of the Maghreb and more versed in the art of kingship. The veiled people acknowledge his superiority over them, obey him and resort to him in all important matters of government. One year the king, on his way to the pilgrimage, came to the Maghreb to pay a visit to the commander of the Muslims, the veiled king of the Maghreb, of the tribe of Lamtuna. The Commander of the Muslims met him on foot, wheras the king of Zafun did not dismount for him. He was tall, of deep black complexion and veiled
page 45 From Ibn Sa'id 13th century
In the same latitude is Zafun, which belongs to pagan Sudan and whose ruler enjoys a good reputation among (other) kings of the Sudan
quote: Drusilla Houston.... refererred to Alexander the Great’s views on the unparalleled stature of ancient Oman, which she says was “inferior to no country” and “a harbor of the ancient commerce.” While she did not question south western Arabia as the production point of the coveted incenses, she did amass some evidence to argue that this area was under Black African control and culture, something which fits well with the fact that African lands were responsible for much of the wealth in this trade."
Portuguese in the royal court of Benin
"Ambassadors, Explorers, and Allies: A Study of African-European Diplomatic Relationships, 1400-1600" Andrea Felber Seligman
quote: Some came as esteemed courtiers and visitors, others as enslaved laborers.1 Most of these Africans, along with captured Muslims, lived lives similar to other European subordinates, with some legal limitations. A number of cases illuminated the existing possibilities of some social mobility.2 Early European views of Africans were without the taint of the racism that developed in later centuries. Wealth, the appearance of nobility, and good manners appeared to be the main criteria in determining social ranking, along with religion. Hostility was most pronounced toward those considered to be Muslim, not towards those of darker skin coloration.
posted
When the Arabs came they found a great nation which had "among the largest and most populous cities of the world" but no Arab ruling class to greet them
"The Negroland of the Arabs examined and explained" 1841 (note that this book has allot of colonial propaganda and mistranslations)
quote:When the conquest of the West (by the Arabs) was completed, and merchants began to penetrate into the interior, they saw no nation of the Blacks so mighty as Ghanah, the dominions of which extended westward as far as the Ocean. The King's court was kept in the city of Ghanah, which, according to the author of the Book of Roger (El Idrisi), and the author of the Book of Roads and Realms (El Bekri), is divided into two parts, standing on both banks of the Nile, and ranks among the largest and most populous cities of the world.
quote:The sudden and conspicuous appearance of the Sudan amongst the armies of Ibn Tulun in Egypt calls for an explanation. Some sources like us to believe that he bought as many as 40,000 Negro slaves and made soldieries out of them to build up an empire of his own. Buying such a number of slaves, let alone training them to be an effective fighting force in a completely unfamiliar territory, would certainly have required more time than the few years that preceded their appearance in Egypt and subsequently in Syria and on the Byzantine borders in the early years of Ibn Tuluns rule 868/884. Other sources more accurately inform us that he enlisted these Sudan in his army
quote:We are here concerned with the Zaghawa, the name of a tribe and its territory which bordered the south of the Sahara and extended west from what is now the western Sudan across Chad, Niger and Northern Nigeria to Upper Vota. Through these regions passed an important trade route that started from Ghana and continued all the way to the Egyptian Oasis and then either to the Nile Valley or to Tripolitania.. The good relations with the king of Nubia, who had had his Nubia House in Fustat since the days of Mutasim, provided the solution
quote:For the Zaghawa the Nubian route was a much safer one that would save them from the hazards of the desert. Once this was established, their increasing presence in Egypt was almost a logical consequence and a clear indication of their interest is widening the scope of their trade. Ibn Tulun would have no objection to such an expansion which could only enhance the wealth of his domains. This common interest created the opportunity for military as well as economic co-operation which explains the enlistment of the Sudan in the army of Egypt
posted
We are interested in destroying the "colonial imaginary" not throwing insults at each other. You would be more useful if you spent more time showing evidence than insulting people.
Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
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this is not tarik berry or the nations intention. there is no mention of mixing of any sort in the western sense. a mande elder told me that he heared from the griot himself say that all the black(african continent) are from the east. i remember reading the jeli(griot) version and it matched that of askia muhammads version. it said they came fom the east as the nation wangara and broke up into the 3 famous empires not nations, empires. [/QUOTE]
I 'm not concerned with what tarik's intention was. I also believe most Africans came from the East and have said it elsewhere on this blog. The Wangara are undoubtedly descendants of ancient Gara peoples that came from the gold traders of the Sahara, otherwise known as Garamantes. The Mande and Soninke or Aswanek are the result of mixing with people who came from the north ancient Yemenites because people of Zaghawa and Tuareg origin settled amongst them. I also never said anything about these ancient Arabian people having straight hair and fair skin. I haven't studied Himyari but have done research on the history of the Arabian peninsula and genealogy and know that in fact Yarab and the Aribi were originally from the Himyarite area mentioned in Himyarite inscriptions. It should be of interest to know that this area was also the region of the original Canaan or Kenaniyya tribe.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by abdulkarem3: [qoute]Though Fulani have mixed in recent times with Islamic Arabians
have not seen any such claim. uthman dan fodio said thay descend from different groups to generally become the fellata
quote:Some Fulani also mixed with the Hudin or (Zaghwe or Zaghawa groups) who settled in
so does the mande. the fact that the zaghawa or duguwa were spread all the way to the atlantic coast as mentioned by ibn khaldun in which they removed a settlement of jews. most of the saharan groups are black. in morocco that is the detemining factor of being sahrawi or desert person = black. [/QUOTE]
Yes the Mande and Fulani are both absorbed Zaghawa groups. That is interesting though that Moroccans consider the Sahrawi black. I already know that most of the Sahara is occupied by people as dark and darker than black Americans. Too bad though that so many Moroccans treat black people so horribly.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by abdulkarem3: u have to forgive the book of tariq. it is kinda a estranged subject and sounds like another blacks are not blacks book but his research is really thorough. i see him on too many arabic websites and he uses his material and he murders people because the book does not do justice to what he has in arabic. u have to be arab or learn arabic to really get the juice of his point. he has people copying his material in the arab world. i have met plenty sub saharan arabs from cameroon one fulani and one haddadi who were asfar men(yellow=dark skin)and they agreed to everything tariq mentioned. there is a great ignorance about what an arab is. this is a vey specific knowledge in which is held in arab books of history and dictionaries and poetry and etc. the english book does ont give his justice. tariq is tough in the arabic language and pulls info that is incredible in the fact that he found such info. i think that the issue is that the info he presents is not like the greeks talking about egyptians in when any person can make the text ambiguous even though it is obvious. he brings text of arabs describing themselves with their students who r arabs explaining even more about the meanings of their statements with multitudes of evidences. i used a drop of hjis info before i even heared of him with plenty of known arabs and they were like a robber who got caught in the act. teh evidence is to clear and unambiguous but this will be unheared of to non arabs. another major point he was trying to make was that the vast makority of the groups that make up the origins of the aa s claimed an easten origin.
For more info on this subject you can see my posts on this site. I am glad to here that Tariq's work is making it around the Arab world. You were on Mike's site about who the real Arab was and thus you should go back and read what I said. On those posts about the real Arabs and in my own pages on the forum I show how all of the tribal groups i the peninsula of Arabia were at one time described as black, while today the population is composed of Arabs who've mixed with Turks, Syrians and Iranians and Europeans.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
There are bizarre legends that all the monarchs of Europe have some kind of heritage going back to Jesus. Some day this will be used to say that all the great nations of Europe were founded by a ruling class of Hebrews
"Medieval West Africa: Views From Arab Scholars and Merchants"
page 1 Al-Ya'qubi (9th century) wrote that Zaghawa are "Sudan" and descendants of Ham who traveled westward. Many translations in that book and that chapter are wrong though but the Zaghawa were not Yemenites. I think you have confused legends of Arab folk heroes with mass "race mixing"
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: On the other hand it is obvious their original ruling classes (Maghira, Zaghwe, Aswanek or Soninke, etc) were peoples of Arabian or Yemenite descent who have mixed with indigenous Africans.
quote: The Mande and Soninke or Aswanek are the result of mixing with people who came from the north ancient Yemenites because people of Zaghawa and Tuareg origin settled amongst them.
posted
Greetings, I'm new here. I find this forum most interesting. I've been peeping in for awhile now; and over and over again, I just find everything that is being debated here has already been taught by The Honorable Elijah Muhammad (Nation of Islam), over 70 years ago. However, it was regarded as "hate" teachings, when that is further from the truth.
He taught the origins, genesis, genetics of the original (black) people of the earth and that of the (white) caucasian.
Everything that is now being discovered and debated, he taught years ago.
A must read:
The Making of the Whiteman: From the Original Man to the Whiteman (Paperback) ~ Paul Lawrence Guthrie (Author)
People... we are all from one origin. Period
Posts: 35 | From: ATL | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: There are bizarre legends that all the monarchs of Europe have some kind of heritage going back to Jesus. Some day this will be used to say that all the great nations of Europe were founded by a ruling class of Hebrews
"Medieval West Africa: Views From Arab Scholars and Merchants"
page 1 Al-Ya'qubi (9th century) wrote that Zaghawa are "Sudan" and descendants of Ham who traveled westward. Many translations in that book and that chapter are wrong though but the Zaghawa were not Yemenites. I think you have confused legends of Arab folk heroes with mass "race mixing"
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: On the other hand it is obvious their original ruling classes (Maghira, Zaghwe, Aswanek or Soninke, etc) were peoples of Arabian or Yemenite descent who have mixed with indigenous Africans.
quote: The Mande and Soninke or Aswanek are the result of mixing with people who came from the north ancient Yemenites because people of Zaghawa and Tuareg origin settled amongst them.
The original Zaghawa are the same people as the Zaghwe Jews of Abyssinia and there is no reason to think that they didn't have some pre-Islamic roots in the area of Yemen as their own traditions say.
And if we are going to talk about Sudan than we can also talk about the fact that the name Sudan is part of early Muslim African and Arabian genealogy and both "Sudan" is the name of a son of Canaan" an area of the yemen stretching to the Asir.
For more information on the original Arabian tribes of Canaan and Misrah please read, The Bible Came from Ethiopia by Kamal Salibi.
In fact Arabia is the Bilad es Sudan of the Syrians like Al umari and other originally non Arab people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K09VyS7TuSg The population in this video still extends from the Central Arabia to Beishe or Beisha which is the Beishat Joktan of the ancients and the original land of the Habeshat.
Until the 15th century this is what the the Arabians looked like which is why most references to ancient Ethiopia of the Greeks and Kush in the Bible refer to the peninsula of Arabia - the Ethiopia of Cepheus, the Solymi and the land of Nimrod.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by abdulkarem3: [qoute]Though Fulani have mixed in recent times with Islamic Arabians
have not seen any such claim. uthman dan fodio said thay descend from different groups to generally become the fellata
quote:Some Fulani also mixed with the Hudin or (Zaghwe or Zaghawa groups) who settled in
so does the mande. the fact that the zaghawa or duguwa were spread all the way to the atlantic coast as mentioned by ibn khaldun in which they removed a settlement of jews. most of the saharan groups are black. in morocco that is the detemining factor of being sahrawi or desert person = black.
Yes the Mande and Fulani are both absorbed Zaghawa groups. That is interesting though that Moroccans consider the Sahrawi black. I already know that most of the Sahara is occupied by people as dark and darker than black Americans. Too bad though that so many Moroccans treat black people so horribly. [/QUOTE]
Meant to say Mande and Fulani have absorbed Zaghawa groups.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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What do you mean by mixed? How many people from another group does it take to make a population mixed? Give us the numbers.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by argyle104: dana marniche,
What do you mean by mixed? How many people from another group does it take to make a population mixed? Give us the numbers.
I mean mixed like later Arabs mixed with Syrians and Iraqis to form Arabic speaking peoples in those regions or like ancient Native Americans mixed with Europeans. There is no point in not celebrating the diversity of cultures that make up Africa and of course almost all populations are the result of mixture and their is no point in denying it - unless of course one is some sort of nationalist.
Am I missing something or has your question been answered.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Why u associate everything with color is what amazez me BlackEgyptian, BlackIndian, BlackAsian, BlackSyrians, Black this black that.
Black is used to describe an object but its seems u all associate black with african-american african
Posts: 410 | From: Al-Ard | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: On the other hand it is obvious their original ruling classes (Maghira, Zaghwe, Aswanek or Soninke, etc) were peoples of Arabian or Yemenite descent who have mixed with indigenous Africans.
This quote just screams 19th century racial theories. I have proof that Arabization comes from European colonialism
"The English conquerors announced that the law of the Koran was to be administered"
"Shall it be said that a Christian Church which has endured through centuries of Moslem persecution fell before the Christian English to whom they looked for deliverance?"
"EASTERN AFRICA AND THE INDIAN OCEAN TO 1800: REVIEWING RELATIONS IN HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE" by Pouwels, Randall L:
quote:Until the nineteenth century, notions of the civilized person (mungwana) centered on the ideal of the free, cultured, indigenous townsperson who was thoroughly schooled in local language, tradition, and forms of Islam. There is little in the evidence to suggest there existed any specific association between local notions about what this meant and being or living "like an Arab" (ustaarabu), an idea that characterized nineteenth-century life.[109]
"Portuguese Conceptual Categories and the "Other" Encounter on the Swahili Coast." by Prestholdt, Jeremy
Note 10
quote:In terms of language, Manuel de Faria e Sousa noted that Arabic, for example, was not widely spoken between Kirimba and Sofala: the language of those people cannot be harsh, being mostly compounded of the soft letters 1 and m (Theal, 1898(1):22). The Portuguese generally described Arabic dialects as harsh, while Swahili, or the language of the coast of Melinde, was described as soft. M. de Figueroa described Swahili as clearer than Arabic (Figueroa, 1967:62). By the seventeenth century, Portuguese accounts made strong distinctions between mouros da costa (Swahili) and 'mouros da Arabia (Omanis or Yemenis)
quote: Mr. L. M. Butcher tells the story of Christianity in the Soudan. Missionaries from Egypt came about the end of the fourth century, and the entire land was soon won for the Christian 'faith. Moslems first invaded the Soudan in 640. Their wars on the Christian kingdom of Nubia extorted an annual tribute of three hundred and sixty slaves for the Kaliph, and so in 653 the Arab slave trade began. But the Nubian kingdom was powerful enough to defeat Moslem Egypt in 740 and win better terms for the Egyptian Christians, Frequent difficulties arose from the slave trade which followed the slave-tribute. About 1000 A.D. Khartoum, the capital of the southern Christian kingdom, was described by a Moslem envoy as a town full of magnificent buildings, spacious mansions, churches enriched with gold. The last Christian King of Nubia began to reign about the beginning of the fifteenth century. In 1501, a negro and Moslem dynasty established itself in the Soudan, and Listed till the beginning of the present century :—
Yet it must not be supposed that Christianity ever died entirely out of the Soudan. At the beginning of the seventeenth century there were still one hundred and fifty churches in the kingdom of Alouah, and they made a fruitless appeal to the King of Abyssinia to send them the priests whom they could not get from Egypt. In Nubia the number is not likely to have been less. In 1833 the Egyptian Patriarch succeeded in getting a bishop through to Khartoum and maintaining the succession there once more. The final blow has been given, we are told, by ourselves. Before Khartoum fell in 1886 the Bishop of Khartoum brought away his nuns in safely to Cairo. He told me that he had still seven churches in his diocese, now probably all destroyed.
But after Omdurman " the rights of the Christian inhabitants were as absolutely ignored as if they did not exist." The English conquerors announced that the law of the Koran was to be administered : " No word was said of the Bishop's Court, which even in the worst times of the Moslem tyranny was legally empowered to decide all matters of marriage and inheritance for the native Christians." Mr. Butcher concludes :—
Shall it be said that a Christian Church which has endured through centuries of Moslem persecution fell before the Christian English to whom they looked for deliverance?
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: On the other hand it is obvious their original ruling classes (Maghira, Zaghwe, Aswanek or Soninke, etc) were peoples of Arabian or Yemenite descent who have mixed with indigenous Africans.
This quote just screams 19th century racial theories. I have proof that Arabization comes from European colonialism
"The English conquerors announced that the law of the Koran was to be administered"
"Shall it be said that a Christian Church which has endured through centuries of Moslem persecution fell before the Christian English to whom they looked for deliverance?"
"EASTERN AFRICA AND THE INDIAN OCEAN TO 1800: REVIEWING RELATIONS IN HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE" by Pouwels, Randall L:
quote:Until the nineteenth century, notions of the civilized person (mungwana) centered on the ideal of the free, cultured, indigenous townsperson who was thoroughly schooled in local language, tradition, and forms of Islam. There is little in the evidence to suggest there existed any specific association between local notions about what this meant and being or living "like an Arab" (ustaarabu), an idea that characterized nineteenth-century life.[109]
"Portuguese Conceptual Categories and the "Other" Encounter on the Swahili Coast." by Prestholdt, Jeremy
Note 10
quote:In terms of language, Manuel de Faria e Sousa noted that Arabic, for example, was not widely spoken between Kirimba and Sofala: the language of those people cannot be harsh, being mostly compounded of the soft letters 1 and m (Theal, 1898(1):22). The Portuguese generally described Arabic dialects as harsh, while Swahili, or the language of the coast of Melinde, was described as soft. M. de Figueroa described Swahili as clearer than Arabic (Figueroa, 1967:62). By the seventeenth century, Portuguese accounts made strong distinctions between mouros da costa (Swahili) and 'mouros da Arabia (Omanis or Yemenis)
quote: Mr. L. M. Butcher tells the story of Christianity in the Soudan. Missionaries from Egypt came about the end of the fourth century, and the entire land was soon won for the Christian 'faith. Moslems first invaded the Soudan in 640. Their wars on the Christian kingdom of Nubia extorted an annual tribute of three hundred and sixty slaves for the Kaliph, and so in 653 the Arab slave trade began. But the Nubian kingdom was powerful enough to defeat Moslem Egypt in 740 and win better terms for the Egyptian Christians, Frequent difficulties arose from the slave trade which followed the slave-tribute. About 1000 A.D. Khartoum, the capital of the southern Christian kingdom, was described by a Moslem envoy as a town full of magnificent buildings, spacious mansions, churches enriched with gold. The last Christian King of Nubia began to reign about the beginning of the fifteenth century. In 1501, a negro and Moslem dynasty established itself in the Soudan, and Listed till the beginning of the present century :—
Yet it must not be supposed that Christianity ever died entirely out of the Soudan. At the beginning of the seventeenth century there were still one hundred and fifty churches in the kingdom of Alouah, and they made a fruitless appeal to the King of Abyssinia to send them the priests whom they could not get from Egypt. In Nubia the number is not likely to have been less. In 1833 the Egyptian Patriarch succeeded in getting a bishop through to Khartoum and maintaining the succession there once more. The final blow has been given, we are told, by ourselves. Before Khartoum fell in 1886 the Bishop of Khartoum brought away his nuns in safely to Cairo. He told me that he had still seven churches in his diocese, now probably all destroyed.
But after Omdurman " the rights of the Christian inhabitants were as absolutely ignored as if they did not exist." The English conquerors announced that the law of the Koran was to be administered : " No word was said of the Bishop's Court, which even in the worst times of the Moslem tyranny was legally empowered to decide all matters of marriage and inheritance for the native Christians." Mr. Butcher concludes :—
Shall it be said that a Christian Church which has endured through centuries of Moslem persecution fell before the Christian English to whom they looked for deliverance?
You certainly have not disproved anything that I have said.
And furthermore I'm not sure why you keep confusing early movements of pre-Islamic and pre-Christian people with what Arab and Islamicized people did recently in the Ottoman era.
I am not interested in talking about European Christians or recent colonization of Africa. My background is in ancient Africana and Afro-Asiatic ethnohistory so I don't talk much about modern history of "Arabization".
There was definitely "Arabization" but you obviously are unfamiliar with early African history or you would know such people as the traditions of Jewish Zaghawa and Maghira andtheir traditions are mentioned long before the Arab conquest in North Africa.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by AswaniAswad: The book is full of ****.
Why u associate everything with color is what amazez me BlackEgyptian, BlackIndian, BlackAsian, BlackSyrians, Black this black that.
Black is used to describe an object but its seems u all associate black with african-american african
Except that the book was written by someone whom the Rasta web-site said is from Morocco or Maghreb somewhere. I think that is where Mr. Berry is from. I guess he got sick of the way black Moroccans are looked upon and treated in his country. Does anybody deny this?
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When Europeans colonized Africa they wanted to portray Arabs as a baby sitter/ rapist. A civilizer of the lowly Negro and an abuser of the lowly Negro. These are the twin views when it comes to colonial thinking. They also wanted to say everyone was "mixed". However before European influence:
quote:"Until the nineteenth century, notions of the civilized person (mungwana) centered on the ideal of the free, cultured, indigenous townsperson who was thoroughly schooled in local language, tradition, and forms of Islam."
So how is it when the Islamic era came it was mostly Sudan moving northward rather than Yemites coming in and mixing (See my previous post quoting M.A. Shaban)
Even in the Pre-Islamic era I think the evidence favors the view of influence coming from south to north. This includes archery
“The Spread of Islam and the Nubian Dam” by David Ayalon
posted
The reason I brought up recent colonialism was because I was trying to show Europeans distorted local histories. I'm not saying there were no contacts in ancient times I'm saying your probably confusing legends of Arab heroes for mass "mixing". When they say that the king of Kanim had an Arab ancestor they were not thinking about mass race mixing they were probably talking about a guy several generations back that fell in love with an African princess. Europeans would later try to distort this
But see how African lands were important in Arabian history:
quote: Drusilla Houston.... refererred to Alexander the Great’s views on the unparalleled stature of ancient Oman, which she says was “inferior to no country” and “a harbor of the ancient commerce.” While she did not question south western Arabia as the production point of the coveted incenses, she did amass some evidence to argue that this area was under Black African control and culture, something which fits well with the fact that African lands were responsible for much of the wealth in this trade."
posted
"The English conquerors announced that the law of the Koran was to be administered"
I put this in because it strongly suggests "Arabization" because the colonial government would administer it's own interpretation of the Koran not caring for local forms of Islam
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Dana, the reason I am so concerned about this is because you make Africans look weak and inferior. Only an inferior race could allow people to walk in and become their ruling class.
Consider this on stereotypes but with the stereotype of Africans being docile:
"Unnatural and ever prejudicial Constructions of Race and Colonial Hierarchies by British observers" in 19th century Zanzibar Electronic pages 13
quote: In a discussion of race and colonial discourse, Homi Bhabha has described the stereotype as "a form of knowledge and identification that facilitates between what is always 'in place', already known, and something that must be anxiously repeated As if the essential duplicity of the Asiatic or the bestial sexual license of the African that needs no proof, can never, in discourse, be proved." In dual character as that which is already known and yet dependent on being anxiously repeated suggests an important aspect of the racial stereotype that is revealed in its use and function in many colonial sources......
page 14
"....We always already know that blacks are licentious, Asiatics duplicitous The stereotype becomes an element of unproven prior knowledge that needs no proof of its veracity for its employment as explanation for racialized difference.
posted
Regarding this book, The Unknown Arabs, other than Dana I've only heard about it from Ausar. I agree that many peoples of Arabia especially in ancient times were much darker i.e. (more black) than people today realize including modern 'Arabs' themselves. However, I agree with Dana that it is silly to say that entire populations or sections of peoples in West and Central Africa are of Arabian descent. I'd even go further to question the claims of even those Africans further north who claim to be of Arab ancestry when it seems to be nothing more than made-up Ashraf genealogy except perhaps in cases of the ruling political elite.
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I am interested in getting this book by Tariq Berry "The Unknown Arabs..". If anyone can assist me finding a copy or assist in contacting Tariq it would be appreciated.
-------------------- Abu Isa Posts: 14 | From: America | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: Dana, the reason I am so concerned about this is because you make Africans look weak and inferior. Only an inferior race could allow people to walk in and become their ruling class.
Consider this on stereotypes but with the stereotype of Africans being docile:
"Unnatural and ever prejudicial Constructions of Race and Colonial Hierarchies by British observers" in 19th century Zanzibar Electronic pages 13
quote: In a discussion of race and colonial discourse, Homi Bhabha has described the stereotype as "a form of knowledge and identification that facilitates between what is always 'in place', already known, and something that must be anxiously repeated As if the essential duplicity of the Asiatic or the bestial sexual license of the African that needs no proof, can never, in discourse, be proved." In dual character as that which is already known and yet dependent on being anxiously repeated suggests an important aspect of the racial stereotype that is revealed in its use and function in many colonial sources......
page 14
"....We always already know that blacks are licentious, Asiatics duplicitous The stereotype becomes an element of unproven prior knowledge that needs no proof of its veracity for its employment as explanation for racialized difference.
In any case I still feel you are confusing ancient migrations with more recent. I know it might sound like "hamitic theory" that sought to make some mythical black Caucasians into those that brought civilization into Africa. No such people ever existed.
The people I am talking about are black and of African origin that once lived in Arabia. I am not saying they brought indigenous culture to Africans. I am also not saying they are different than Africans, but an extension of the Arabs. The Arabs you are talking about or thinking about are hardly even Arabs let alone ancient Arabs.
The fact is the ruling classes that I am talking about claim descent from Arabia. Most of the groups are actually the result of mixing with early Hausa originated peoples like the Gobir, Kwararafa, Jukon, Kwona, Zaghwe and other originally Cushitic people. They are the people we call Africans, Abyssinians or Beishat, and people who were basically an extension of neolithic and Bronze Age east Africans into the Arabian peninsula. Furthermore they were Africans when they left Arabia, and their remnants in Arabia still claim an African origin.
This is also not a reference to modern Sudanese Arabs who came much later after the time of Muhammed when their ancestors the Sulaym, Ghatafan, Abs groups were already mixing with their Byzantine and Syrian concubines.
Peoples of the Sudan have always been mixing amongst themselves so I am not sure what you are arguing about.
Mahra of Arabia
The Mahra people belong to Kudh'a of Himyar and Saba and people like them up until a few hundred years ago occupied the entirety of Arabia for several thousand years. Among their descendants were the people of Central Arabia and Hejaz extending to Syria where they were referred to by Greeks as "the black Syrians", Phoenicians, Canaanites, Solymi or Israelites, etc. Though they claim an African origin they have no doubt lived in Arabia for thousands of years before Christ and are responsible for early "semitic' civilization.
Arabia long known as "eastern Ethiopia", (and part of Bilad as Sudan) including Yemen, has long since been settled by Iranians or Ebna, Turks and Syrians, and people of slaves descent coming from the Byzantines and subject peoples of the Arabs.
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posted
I posted about more recent relations including relations with the Portuguese to show that People coming in and becoming the ruling class seems far fetched.
People from Africa were traveling to Arabia why don't we hear about this?
The Arabs were completely fine with this for example Al-Masudi admitting all the Arabs learned archery from the Nubians. See the quote I gave about the king of Zafun and his influence
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quote:Originally posted by Abu Isa: I am interested in getting this book by Tariq Berry "The Unknown Arabs..". If anyone can assist me finding a copy or assist in contacting Tariq it would be appreciated.
It looks like the book is out of stock on Amazon now so I'll see if I can find out.
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posted
Also his origins are appparently in the Gulf region and not Morocco as I mentioned above.
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As I said Africans normally traveled to Arabia which is support by Al-Masudi who said they learned archery from Nubians. The quote I posted earlier from M.A. Shaban showed how thousands traveled to Arabia and enlisted as soldiers.
“The Spread of Islam and the Nubian Dam” by David Ayalon
quote: 3. The awe and respect that the Muslims had for their Nubian adversaries are reflected in the fact that even a rather late Umayyad caliph, ‘Umar b ‘Abd al- ‘Aziz (‘Umar II 717-720), is said to have ratified the Nubian-Muslim treaty out of fear for the safety of the Muslims (“he ratified the peace treaty out of consideration for the Muslims and out of [a desire] to spare their lives”)
quote:Originally posted by markellion: As I said Africans normally traveled to Arabia which is support by Al-Masudi who said they learned archery from Nubians. The quote I posted earlier from M.A. Shaban showed how thousands traveled to Arabia and enlisted as soldiers.
“The Spread of Islam and the Nubian Dam” by David Ayalon
quote: 3. The awe and respect that the Muslims had for their Nubian adversaries are reflected in the fact that even a rather late Umayyad caliph, ‘Umar b ‘Abd al- ‘Aziz (‘Umar II 717-720), is said to have ratified the Nubian-Muslim treaty out of fear for the safety of the Muslims (“he ratified the peace treaty out of consideration for the Muslims and out of [a desire] to spare their lives”)
quote:“The people of Hijaz and Yemen and the rest of the Arabs learned archery from them (The Nubians)”
Of course early Arabians learned archery from their ancestors.
A 4th century Roman writer on early Arabians - Ammanius Marcellinus - said this
Book XIV.4: At this time also the Saracens, a race whom it is never desirable to have either for friends or enemies, ranging up and down the country, if ever they found anything, plundered it in a moment, like rapacious hawks who, if from on high they behold any prey, carry it off with a rapid swoop, or, if they fail in their attempt, do not tarry. And although, in recounting the career of the Prince Marcus, and once or twice subsequently, I remember having discussed the manners of this people, nevertheless I will now briefly enumerate a few more particulars concerning them.
Among these tribes, WHOSE PRIMARY ORIGIN IS DERIVED FROM THE CATARACTS OF THE NILE AND TEH BORDERS OF THE BLEMMYAE, all the men are warriors of equal rank; half naked, clad in colored cloaks down to the waist, overrunning different countries, with the aid of swift and active horses and speedy camels... Ammianus Marcellinus.
Yafa'i tribe of the Banu Ru'ayn (also probably the Haiyafa of Assyrian texts)
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche: [qb] Wesley Williams book, Black Arabia, also mentions that that Ibn Mudjawir said the region of the Tihama as "Kush".
The people of the Tihama still use their ancient east African style beehive huts.
Arabia was an extension of east Africa in ancient times.
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My problem was that people always talk about Arabs going into Africa and not the other way around. The relationships are always portrayed as one sided
Hausa became was a world language "a world=speech between tribes of different languages and between Mediterranean and Sudanese Africa."
quote: In the Chad group the Hausa has spread farthest and acquired most usefulness. The vernacular of a numerous people, it offers a valuable medium of communication through vast districts on both sides of the Binwe and the Niger. In extent of use it surpasses all other languages in inner Africa, serving not only as the mother=tongue of millions but as a world=speech between tribes of different languages and between Mediterranean and Sudanese Africa. Hausa is remarkable for simplicity, elegance and wealth of vocabulary. It stands among the world's imperial languages, magnificent, rich and sonorous, beautiful and facile in grammatical structure, enjoying a harmony in the forms of its words and a symphonic symmetry that few tongues can equal, and assured of prolonged existence and vast expansion. It is the Latin of Central Sudan.
posted
Arabia was considered part of Ethiopia and it has always been a matter of people going both ways long before the Islamic era. So much were the people of one stock that Strabo and other early Greeks claimed the name of Arabia referred to everything east of the Nile. The tribes of Arabia have been on both sides of the Red Sea for thousands of years whether we like it or not.
They are related as much as the Siouan tribes of North Carolina are to the Sioux of North Dakota.
I don't have the same "problem".
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: It is everyones problem look at the media. Africans are always portrayed as passive
Actually Africans are portrayed as lacking civilization, passive, overly agressive, worthless, lacking culture and innovation. But we all know that's far from the truth.
Some scientists believe this African sculpture dates back to over 10,000 years ago.
Woman of the Hyksos
Olmecs heads found near pyramids in Central America. The internal dimensions were found to be similar to ancient nilotic ones.
First "pharaoh"
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posted
My point was that during the Islamic era there seemed to have been less Yemenite migration across the great desert than the amount you claimed migrated in Pre-Islamic times
While on the other hand there continued to be large numbers of Africans traveling northward across the desert, south to north migrations
Add to the mix that colonialists tampered with local histories and were biased toward the idea of North to South migrations
"EASTERN AFRICA AND THE INDIAN OCEAN TO 1800: REVIEWING RELATIONS IN HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE" by Pouwels, Randall L:
quote:Until the nineteenth century, notions of the civilized person (mungwana) centered on the ideal of the free, cultured, indigenous townsperson who was thoroughly schooled in local language, tradition, and forms of Islam. There is little in the evidence to suggest there existed any specific association between local notions about what this meant and being or living "like an Arab" (ustaarabu), an idea that characterized nineteenth-century life.
posted
Dana I have a few questions for you. I see you reference to a book called "Black Arabia" by Wesley Williams. Is this same author called Wesley Muhammad who has a book called "Black Arabia & the African Origin of Islam"? Also are you a Arab speaker. I'm just curious because you seem to have some knowledge regarding Arabian history. Also in your opinion is Tariq Berry sound in his analysis. I have been doing research about Arabian history and culture for a few years and not being a proficient Arab speaker really hinders the research, but Tariq seems to know his stuff from what I've read on another website. Anyways, keep up the good work. Also to let you know there's a book called "The Battles of the Prophet" by Ibn Kathir, in it on page 97 it reads, " Quraish came and encamped where the torrent beds of Ruma meet between Al-Jurut and Zughabah with ten thousand of their black mercenaries and their followers from the tribe of Kinanah and the people of Tuhamah (Tihamah)." I put this quote in relation to the picture you posted of the brother from Tihamah above. I always wanted some clarity to the passage I posted about the people of Tihamah, so the picture you provided was right on time. Thanks again.
-------------------- Abu Isa Posts: 14 | From: America | Registered: Jan 2010
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For as long as we continue delusions about Africans being passive we will never have true progress in the study of history. Our understanding can only rise a little but it will not stop eugenics because all errors in thinking will simply continue.
The one true stereotype about "Negroes" is them being passive, this is the one stereotype that exists everywhere. This is the very core of all racist distortions of all history (concerning "Negroes")
What genocides and eugenics programs will come about because we keep repeating ideas about Africans being weak and inferior
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quote:The Battles of the Prophet" by Ibn Kathir, in it on page 97 it reads, " Quraish came and encamped where the torrent beds of Ruma meet between Al-Jurut and Zughabah with ten thousand of their black mercenaries and their followers from the tribe of Kinanah and the people of Tuhamah (Tihamah)
the translation is wrong. it is done by people like markellion. they translate ahabeesh as black slave soldiers. this is probably done because they were unfamiliar with arab custom before islaam. jawad ali an iraqi that in his opinion the ahabeesh who settled the tihama regions were there were arab tribes under their control and anybody in that area was called ahabeesh. he says that they probably intermarried and allied with arab tribes and became of arab lineage because they are mentioned more than once in battles. allying with tribes was famous in arabia. the saudi family are a result. he says his is from them being their for so long so all tribes in that area became known as ahabeesh. do not forget this area was ruled by habasha. tihama arabs
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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