An Examination of Nubian and Egyptian biological distances: Support for biological diffusion or in situ development?
Homo. 2009;60(5):389-404. Epub 2009 Sep 19.
Godde K. Department of Anthropology, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, 250 South Stadium Hall, Knoxville, TN 37996, USA. kgodde@utk.edu
Many authors have speculated on Nubian biological evolution. Because of the contact Nubians had with other peoples, migration and/or invasion (biological diffusion) were originally thought to be the biological mechanism for skeletal changes in Nubians. Later, a new hypothesis was put forth, the in situ hypothesis. The new hypothesis postulated that Nubians evolved in situ, without much genetic influence from foreign populations. This study examined 12 Egyptian and Nubian groups in an effort to explore the relationship between the two populations and to test the in situ hypothesis. Data from nine cranial nonmetric traits were assessed for an estimate of biological distance, using Mahalanobis D(2) with a tetrachoric matrix. The distance scores were then input into principal coordinates analysis (PCO) to depict the relationships between the two populations. PCO detected 60% of the variation in the first two principal coordinates. A plot of the distance scores revealed only one cluster; the Nubian and Egyptian groups clustered together. The grouping of the Nubians and Egyptians indicates there may have been some sort of gene flow between these groups of Nubians and Egyptians. However, common adaptation to similar environments may also be responsible for this pattern. Although the predominant results in this study appear to support the biological diffusion hypothesis, the in situ hypothesis was not completely negated.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Given that they are right next to each other in the Nile Valley corridor and that the upper Nile region is an important region to both groups historically going back many thousands of years, it only makes sense. In fact, it shouldn't need scientific study to confirm the obvious fact that both populations are INDIGENOUS Nile Valley Africans and RIGHT NEXT to each other and therefore closer to each other than anyone else.
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
Results
The Mahalanobis D2 analysis uncovered close affinities between Nubians and Egyptians. Table 3 lists the Mahalanobis D2 distance matrix. As there is no significance testing that is available to be applied to this form of Mahalanobis distances, the biodistance scores must be interpreted in relation to one another, rather than on a general scale. In some cases, the statistics reveal that the Egyptian samples were more similar to Nubian samples than to other Egyptian samples (e.g. Gizeh and Hesa/Biga) and vice versa (e.g. Badari and Kerma, Naqada and Christian). These relationships are further depicted in the PCO plot (Fig. 2). Aside from these interpopulation relationships, some Nubian groups are still more similar to other Nubians and some Egyptians are more similar to other Egyptian samples. Moreover, although the Nubian and Egyptian samples formed one well-distributed group, the Egyptian samples clustered in the upper left region, while the Nubians concentrated in the lower right of the plot. One line can be drawn that would separate the closely dispersed Egyptians and Nubians. The predynastic Egyptian samples clustered together (Badari and Naqada), while Gizeh most closely groups with the Lisht sample. The first two principal coordinates from PCO account for 60% of the variation in the samples. The graph from PCO is basically a pictorial representation of the distance matrix and interpretations from the plot mirror the Mahalanobis D2 matrix.
Discussion
The clustering of the Nubian and Egyptian samples together supports this paper's hypothesis and demonstrates that there may be a close relationship between the two populations. This relationship is consistent with Berry and Berry (1972), among others, who noted a similarity between Nubians and Egyptians. If Nubians and Egyptians were not biologically similar, one would expect the scores to separately cluster by population (e.g. Nubians compared to Nubians would have small biological distances, and Nubians compared to Egyptians would have high biological distances). However, this was not the case in the current analysis and the results suggest homogeneity between the two populations. Many of the samples that are similar to one another, between the two populations, are separated by great amounts of time (e.g. Kerma and Badari). These similarities over time make sense because, as Konigsberg (1990) asserted, as time elapses, related groups become more genetically similar. In order to explicate the meaning behind all of these findings, the results here must be tempered by the DNA evidence. Both mtDNA (Krings et al., 1999) and Y-Chromosome data (Hassan et al., 2008; Keita, 2005; Lucotte and Mercier, 2003) indicate that migrations, usually bidirectional, occurred along the Nile. Thus, the osteological material used in this analysis also supports the DNA evidence.
Interpretation of the results framed by several of the groups’ histories helps to elucidate the subtle relationships depicted in the PCO scatter plot. The predynastic sample from Badari occupies a complex position in Egyptian history. The Badarians are Egypt's oldest agriculturalists and produced some of the earliest known pottery (Hassan, 1986) that predated state formation in Egypt. Badarian crania, in comparison to dynastic groups, are slight and less robust than their later counterparts (Angel, 1972; Morant, 1935; Stoessiger, 1927). Stoessiger (1927) likened the gracile nature of the Badarians to the gracile nature of the people from Naqada, but she pointed out that the Badarians are more prognathic. On this basis, many have postulated that the Badarians are relatives to South African populations (Morant, 1935 G. Morant, A study of predynastic Egyptian skulls from Badari based on measurements taken by Miss BN Stoessiger and Professor DE Derry, Biometrika 27 (1935), pp. 293–309.Morant, 1935; Mukherjee et al., 1955; Irish and Konigsberg, 2007). The archaeological evidence points to this relationship as well. (Hassan, 1986) and (Hassan, 1988) noted similarities between Badarian pottery and the Neolithic Khartoum type, indicating an archaeological affinity among Badarians and Africans from more southern regions. Furthermore, like the Badarians, Naqada has also been classified with other African groups, namely the Teita (Crichton, 1996; Keita, 1990), while the Gizeh sample clustered with the Maghreb and Sedment (Dynasty IX Egyptians) (Keita, 1990).
Nutter (1958) noted affinities between the Badarian and Naqada samples, a feature that Strouhal (1971) attributed to their skulls possessing “Negroid” traits. Keita (1992), using craniometrics, discovered that the Badarian series is distinctly different from the later Egyptian series, a conclusion that is mostly confirmed here. In the current analysis, the Badari sample more closely clusters with the Naqada sample and the Kerma sample. However, it also groups with the later pooled sample from Dynasties XVIII–XXV. The unusual grouping of Badari, Naqada, Kerma, and the later Dynastic pooled sample may have been a product of the mixed nature of the pooled sample. The effects of pooled samples have been demonstrated in Nubians by obscuring relationships and creating a falsely close affinity between it and the samples it clusters with (Godde, 2009a). Moreover, affinities among the Badarian, Naqada, and Kerma samples have been revealed by other authors (Keita, 1990; Nutter, 1958) and it is no surprise that this relationship exists in the data here.
Relationships among Badari, Naqada, and Kerma have not always been overt in the skeletal data. Berry et al. (1967) concluded from their nonmetric analysis that their Badarian sample differed significantly from Naqada and Kerma, but was closely related to the Gizeh sample. Their study included the same samples as this analysis, but yielded results that are different from the current study and the craniometric research. Berry et al. (1967) employed a completely different range of statistics, which may account for the difference between the two conclusions. However, Berry and her coauthors also noted homogeneity across all the Egyptian groups, including Naqada and those that pre- and post-date the sample. This is indeed the case here, as is evidenced in the PCO plot; the Egyptians appear to be relatively homogeneously grouped. Some Badarian crania also classified well with the Gizeh sample (Keita, 1990).
The close clustering of Badari and Naqada with Kerma exemplifies the possible relationship of Nubians to Egyptians. Originally, the Nubian A-Group was thought to be Badarian in origin (Reisner, 1910). However, later work (Adams, 1977; Godde, 2009a) established that the A-Group were actually Nubian. Comparisons of C-Group and Pan-Grave Nubians to Badari and Hierakonpolis separate Badari from the other samples, indicating no biological affinities with these earlier Nubian groups (Godde, 2009b). The reoccurring notation of Kerma affinities with Egyptian groups is not entirely surprising. Kerma was an integral part of the trade between Egypt and Nubia. Collett (1933) concluded that Kerma was originally inhabited by Egyptians with neighboring Nubian settlements. Her investigation of the site pointed towards continuous Egyptian occupation of some sort at the site throughout the Kerma time period. This continued presence at Kerma is an optimal condition for gene flow to occur between the two populations.
Nubian groups have also been scrutinized as to their relationship with other Nubians. Both the Meroitic and X-Group were originally postulated to be foreign peoples migrating into Lower Nubia (Adams, 1968; Nielsen, 1970). These ideas were based on changes in pottery around the beginning of each of the respective time periods. However, the archaeological evidence actually showed slow change in form over time (Adams, 1977) and the biological evidence demonstrated a similar trend in the skeletal data (e.g. Godde, in press; Van Gerven et al., 1977). These conclusions negate the possibility of invasion or migration causing the shifts in time periods. The results in this study are consistent with prior work; the Meroites and X-Group cluster with the remaining Nubian population and are not differentiated.
Despite the biological similarities between the two populations, the Nubians appear relatively homogeneous. The homogeneity is consistent with Carlson and Van Gerven's (1979) in situ hypothesis, but contradicts the findings of Buzon (2006). Buzon (2006) found a high level of heterogeneity in the Nubian samples she examined, including individuals from Kerma and the C-Group. Moreover, the Egyptian samples in her study were homogeneous overall, consistent with Berry et al. (1967) and the results in this paper. However, the levels of homogeneity appear to be similar within Nubians and within Egyptians in this study. The differences between this research and Buzon's (2006) work may be related to the statistics used. Buzon's (2006) goal was not to look at biological affinities; rather, she was trying to establish identity among her individuals by associating it with archaeological material. While this paper used a biological distance approach to investigate past population relationships, her paper used factor analysis, principal components, and a least squares regression. Although these (hers and those used here) statistics all have a solid methodological basis, they measure population relationships in two different manners and the results between them are not entirely comparable.
Gene flow may account for the homogeneity across these Nubian and Egyptian groups and is consistent with the biological diffusion precept. Small geographic distances between groups allow for the exchange of genes. One of the Nubian groups in this analysis is located in Upper Egypt (Hesa/Biga), near Egyptian occupation, and contact between the two populations may have been commonplace. Specifically, Nubians were often captured and enslaved by Egyptians to build pyramids, or employed by the Egyptian army (Trigger, 1976). Occasionally, Nubians were even directed to fight other Nubians as part of their duties as troops (Trigger, 1976). Moreover, some groups of Nubians allied with the Egyptians for the conquest of Nubian areas, primarily during Dynasty I (Trigger, 1976). Furthermore, as mentioned earlier, trade between Nubians and Egyptians flourished at Kerma and Meroe, during the time periods named after the sites, and enabled contact for potential gene flow. As a result of their respective histories, the multitude of interactions between them, geographic locations, and their biological composition, it appears that gene flow was possibly occurring between the two populations.
The similarities uncovered by this study may be explained by another force, adaptation. As stated above, the results appear to support the biological diffusion hypothesis because the Nubian and Egyptian groups are biologically similar. However, this resemblance may be indicative of a common adaptation to a similar geographic location, rather than gene flow. Carlson and Van Gerven (1979) stated this idea in reference to common adaptations of Nubian, Paleolithic, and aboriginal Australian populations. Additionally, Carlson (1976), Prowse and Lovell (1995), Van Gerven (1982), and Van Gerven et al., 1977 D. Van Gerven, G. Armelagos and A. Rohr, Continuity and change in cranial morphology of three Nubian archaeological populations, Man 2 (1977), pp. 270–277. View Record in Scopus | Cited By in Scopus (9)Van Gerven et al. (1977) also recognized this form of natural selection as a mechanism for in situ biological change; Egypt and Nubia have similar terrain and climate. Because of the similarity between and the overlapping of the two territories that would require similar adaptations to the environment, common adaptation cannot be discounted.
Sample size may have unduly influenced the results in this analysis. Four of the samples were represented by less than 30 individuals, while several of the remaining samples numbered close to 200 individuals. Moreover, only a small number of groups (six) from each population were examined in this study. Observations of more and larger population samples may produce different findings.
In summation, a portion of the in situ hypothesis in Nubians is supported in this paper, namely homogeneity. Gene flow appears likely between the Egyptians and Nubians, although common adaptations to a similar environment may have also been a factor in their cranial similarities. This study does not rule out the possibility that in situ biological evolution occurred at other times not represented by the samples in this analysis. Further research should incorporate more populations the Nubians were in contact with, to further shed light on Nubian population structure. Additionally, Konigsberg's (1990) spatial–temporal isolation model should be applied to the dataset here to further explicate the results.
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
Good post Bass, as usual......as Doug said given the proximity between Nubians and Egyptians one would expect this relationship to clearly be visible, which it is, and proven time and time again.....
quote: In some cases, the statistics reveal that the Egyptian samples were more similar to Nubian samples than to other Egyptian samples (e.g. Gizeh and Hesa/Biga) and vice versa (e.g. Badari and Kerma, Naqada and Christian). These relationships are further depicted in the PCO plot (Fig. 2). Aside from these interpopulation relationships, some Nubian groups are still more similar to other Nubians and some Egyptians are more similar to other Egyptian samples.
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
The study will be posted in the yahoo group for safe keeping. one has to wonder whether "Nubians" existed as a distinct group in the first place since the two populations are indistinguishable. Ausar once said that AEs called "Nubia" its southernmost nome.
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
Where are the vets and especially zaharan? Normally zaharan uses his creativity to present this data for those who are slow to get it and or understand, no names will be mentioned lest trolls get attracted.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
Welcome back, Charlie! We missed you dearly.
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Welcome back, Charlie! We missed you dearly.
Its feels great to be back, battling Eurocentrists on their home turf can get boring, especially when its Evil Euro. The egyptology forum is at least moderated so its safe here.
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
Notice the position of the Coptic monks, intermediate between Naqada and the Egyptian E series from Giza, very telling, wonder which monks they're referring to. The 18th dynasty samples even more closely resembles Nubians.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Nice study Charles, but Doug is correct. Such findings are nothing new as for the last few decades craniometrics show the Egyptians to be closest to northern Sudanese than to any other population.
quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: Where are the vets and especially zaharan? Normally zaharan uses his creativity to present this data for those who are slow to get it and or understand, no names will be mentioned lest trolls get attracted.
LOL So Zarahan is the kindergarden teacher who can break it down to the less intelligent, huh? Somehow I doubt no matter how simple he makes it, such findings will never penetrate the steel wall of ignorance that shields the minds of some folk.
By the way, we are glad to have you back. Gracing us with your presence and your present of this scientific study is a breath of fresh air.
Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
Wow.. Excellent study and excellent find Bass. Once again you and others have strengthened the quest for an accurate and balanced history of the African peoples. Haven;t been on a much lately but check in from time to time. The study above confirms what older ones show time and time again- the close relationship between Nubians and Egyptians. Ethnically they were the closest relations. Will add this new data to future "presentations".. lol.. This one stands by itself.. and is yet another stab in the heart of those who posit alleged "racial" wars between Nubians and Egyptians. Those fools who like to show pictures of "black" Nubians "versus" Egyptians once again are defeated. The pictures are showing variants of the 2 most closely related peoples in the Egyptian Nile Valley. Ironic...
And yeah Dj, no matter how we break it down, the ignorant and racist will remain in their ignorance and racism. But it is not about them. The point is not to convince racists, but rather to document African history and restore the balance. What racists think is ultimately irrelevant.
The only quibble I have with the author is greater balance on Nubians in Egypt. It is not only as mercenaries or laborers that Nubians appear, but also some pharaohs are of Nubian origin, LONG BEFORE the well known 25th Dynasty. Those of the 12th Dynasty are a case in point and the 12th Dynasty is one of the greatest Dynasties in Egyptian history.
Furthermore as Bianchi 2004 shows, Nubian and Egyptian intermarriages were common where the people had a chance to mingle with one another. That is part of the picture as well. The study however does get the essential point about the closeness of the 2 peoples right.
Anyway Dje, Mind, Bass and others, you guys keep up the good work.
older "presentation" on Nubians .. lol Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Nice study Charles,
You're such a kiss a$$. The study practically debunks your thesis: Kushites (Nubians) and Egyptians don't look alike (see Will Smith thread).
"one has to wonder whether "Nubians" existed as a distinct group in the first place since the two populations are indistinguishable" - Charlie Bass
^ you were arguing the opposite of that in the Will Smith thread Asian. And you too gringo.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LMAO You moron! My original point was that Will Smith didn't look like a Nile Valley native at all, whether Egyptian or Kushite!!
I see that stupid old Will Smith topic has also vexed you! Only some insecure Will Smith fan (ass-kisser) probably one who was only recently introduced to 'Fresh Prince of Bel-air' would be so perturbed by such nonsense. But, oh well! Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: My original point was that Will Smith didn't look like a Nile Valley native at all, whether Egyptian or Kushite!!
You lying troll.
"Personally, Will Smith doesn't look much a Kushite to me" Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Who's lying? He doesn't look Kushite or any Nile Valley African. And the only troll here is YOU who brings baggage of defeat and humiliation onto other threads such as this! Get over it, you idiot-loser! LOL
Back to the topic (and sanity)...
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: The study will be posted in the yahoo group for safe keeping. one has to wonder whether "Nubians" existed as a distinct group in the first place since the two populations are indistinguishable. Ausar once said that AEs called "Nubia" its southernmost nome.
As has always been repeated often in this forum, there has never been an ethnic group called "Nubians". "Nubia" was the name the Romans gave to the lands south of Egypt, and the various peoples who lived there were known collectively as "Nubians". The Egyptians themselves never used the term but referred to these groups by their actual name or ethnonyms they had for them. The earliest and perhaps most prominent 'Nubian' group were the Setjau people whose kingdom of Ta-Seti was the earliest historical kingdom in the Nile Valley preceeding both Ta-Shemau (Upper Egypt) and Ta-Mehu (Lower Egypt). Not only do the earliest hieroglyphs and pharaonic symbols originate in Ta-Seti but there is even evidence in the oldest capital cities of Upper Egypt were ruled by elite families of Ta-Seti origin. With the unification of Egypt, Ta-Seti was said to have been overcome or as some scholars think destroyed by Egyptians. But it is interesting that the Egyptians throughout dynastic history still consider Ta-Seti to be Egypts 1st Nome. This is why many significant dynasties sought to claim ancestry from Ta-Seti in one way or another and why 'Nubian' groups like Kushites also tried to claim the Egyptian throne.
quote: Notice the position of the Coptic monks, intermediate between Naqada and the Egyptian E series from Giza, very telling, wonder which monks they're referring to. The 18th dynasty samples even more closely resembles Nubians.
"The late XVII Dynasty and XVIII Dynasty royal mummies display the strongest Nubian affinities. In terms of maxillary protrusion as measured by SNA, the mean value for these Pharaohs is 84.21 comparable to that of African Americans. They exceed the latter in terms of ANB and SN-M Plane, but are closer to Caucasians in regards to SNB. However, the ability of SNA and SNB to predict maxillary and mandibular protrusion respectively has been questioned. Some studies suggest that measuring prognathism from the Frankfort horizontal would produce more reliable results (See RM Ricketts, RJ Schulhof, L Bagha. Orientation-sella-nasion or Frankfort horizontal. Am J Orthod 1976 Jun;69(6):648-654; also JW Moore. Variation of the sella-nasion plane and its effect on SNA and SNB. J Oral Surg. 1976 Jan; 34(1): 24-26).
In regards to head shape, the late XVII and XVIII dynasty mummies are very close to Nubian samples intermediate between the Mesolithic and Christian periods. The zygomatic arches are almost always vertical or forward and not receding."
James Harris & Edward Wente, X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980)
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Who's lying? He doesn't look Kushite or any Nile Valley African
Why do your later explains (after your BS has been pointed out) always conflict with your actual quotes Asian? LOL
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ And how does it conflict, you mentally and sexually depraved nitwit??! The original thread was about him playing a Kushite king. He does NOT look Kushite! And I just added he doesn't look Nile Valley African at all.
I understand you have a crush on Will Smith. I bet you even wanked off while watching the movie 'Hancock'! LOL
Get the hell over it and get back to the topic, or just remain silent!
If I didn't know any better, you are just disturbed by the findings Charles provided so YOU as the true troll attempt to distract by polluting this thread with your nonsense. I will no longer amuse you little wap. Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I just added he doesn't look Nile Valley African at all.
Yeh this came months after to cover up your failed attempt at phenotypic stereotyping. LOL
^ I "cover up" nothing, fool! As for phenotype stereotyping, just because northeast Africa is diverse doesn't mean they have to look like your favorit African-American star. So enough of your b*tching!
I don't know why I bother. I said I won't amuse your obsession anymore. Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I "cover up" nothing, fool!
Screaming wont help.
quote:As for phenotype stereotyping, just because northeast Africa is diverse doesn't mean they have to look like your favorit African-American star.
Ah yes, this is what you are reduced to, yet another of your imbecilic self defeating mantra: African phenotype is diverse yet Africans like Will Smith don't look like any of them! LOL
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Ignoring the desperate rantings of a defeated troll. As I said, I will no longer abet trolls in their idiotic attempts to sabatoge threads.
Getting back to the topic...
Am J Phys Anthropol. 1996 Oct;101(2):237-46. Concordance of cranial and dental morphological traits and evidence for endogamy in ancient Egypt. Prowse TL, Lovell NC. Department of Anthropology, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada. "A biological affinities study based on frequencies of cranial nonmetric traits in skeletal samples from three cemeteries at predynastic Naqada, Egypt, confirms the results of a recent nonmetric dental morphological analysis. Both cranial and dental traits analyses indicate that the individuals buried in a cemetery characterized archaeologically as high status are significantly different from individuals buried in two other, apparently nonelite cemeteries and that the nonelite samples are not significantly different from each other. A comparison with neighbouring Nile Valley skeletal samples suggests that the high status cemetery represents an endogamous ruling or elite segment of the local population at Naqada, which is more closely related to populations in northern Nubia than to neighbouring populations in southern Egypt."
Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: The study will be posted in the yahoo group for safe keeping. one has to wonder whether "Nubians" existed as a distinct group in the first place since the two populations are indistinguishable. Ausar once said that AEs called "Nubia" its southernmost nome.
As has always been repeated often in this forum, there has never been an ethnic group called "Nubians". "Nubia" was the name the Romans gave to the lands south of Egypt, and the various peoples who lived there were known collectively as "Nubians". The Egyptians themselves never used the term but referred to these groups by their actual name or ethnonyms they had for them. The earliest and perhaps most prominent 'Nubian' group were the Setjau people whose kingdom of Ta-Seti was the earliest historical kingdom in the Nile Valley preceeding both Ta-Shemau (Upper Egypt) and Ta-Mehu (Lower Egypt). Not only do the earliest hieroglyphs and pharaonic symbols originate in Ta-Seti but there is even evidence in the oldest capital cities of Upper Egypt were ruled by elite families of Ta-Seti origin. With the unification of Egypt, Ta-Seti was said to have been overcome or as some scholars think destroyed by Egyptians. But it is interesting that the Egyptians throughout dynastic history still consider Ta-Seti to be Egypts 1st Nome. This is why many significant dynasties sought to claim ancestry from Ta-Seti in one way or another and why 'Nubian' groups like Kushites also tried to claim the Egyptian throne.
quote: Notice the position of the Coptic monks, intermediate between Naqada and the Egyptian E series from Giza, very telling, wonder which monks they're referring to. The 18th dynasty samples even more closely resembles Nubians.
"The late XVII Dynasty and XVIII Dynasty royal mummies display the strongest Nubian affinities. In terms of maxillary protrusion as measured by SNA, the mean value for these Pharaohs is 84.21 comparable to that of African Americans. They exceed the latter in terms of ANB and SN-M Plane, but are closer to Caucasians in regards to SNB. However, the ability of SNA and SNB to predict maxillary and mandibular protrusion respectively has been questioned. Some studies suggest that measuring prognathism from the Frankfort horizontal would produce more reliable results (See RM Ricketts, RJ Schulhof, L Bagha. Orientation-sella-nasion or Frankfort horizontal. Am J Orthod 1976 Jun;69(6):648-654; also JW Moore. Variation of the sella-nasion plane and its effect on SNA and SNB. J Oral Surg. 1976 Jan; 34(1): 24-26).
In regards to head shape, the late XVII and XVIII dynasty mummies are very close to Nubian samples intermediate between the Mesolithic and Christian periods. The zygomatic arches are almost always vertical or forward and not receding."
James Harris & Edward Wente, X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980)
Excellent quotes, and its good you remind us that Nubians varied, and were not "all alike." The below inscription by ancient Egyptians writer Weni the Elder shows numerous different groups of Nubians being recruited to do battle with Asiatic "sand dwellers"..
"When his majesty took action against the Asiatic sand-dwellers, his majesty made an army of many tens of thousands from all of Upper Egypt: ...; from Lower Egypt: ...; and from Irtjet-Nubians, Medja-Nubians, Yam-Nubians, Wawat-Nubians, Kaau-Nubians; and from Tjemeh-land." --Weni the Elder
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan: and its good you remind us that Nubians varied, and were not "all alike."
LOL Exactly! So saying that a black man "does not look like them" is quite idiotic!
Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
Indeed...
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Of course it was never said "a black man" does not look like them as 'Nubian' peoples were black! As usual, the troll above you distorts others words in a pathetic attempt to save his bogled-ass. It just can't get over the fact that just because ancient northeast Africans were varied does not mean they look like any modern day individual African Americans, particularly Will Smith looking like a Kushite prince! Every region of Africa is diverse phenotypically but it doesn't mean they can match any African American! It's like saying because Lisa Ray is of African descent she looks like a Kushite princess.LOL
Zarahan, I suggest you ignore the troll and do not feed it any longer. The troll loves its impulses to be fed in cyberspace, the way it loves to be fed d*cks in real life. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan: Excellent quotes, and its good you remind us that Nubians varied, and were not "all alike." The below inscription by ancient Egyptians writer Weni the Elder shows numerous different groups of Nubians being recruited to do battle with Asiatic "sand dwellers"..
As I said, 'Nubians' was a label coined by Romans. We don't know what the etymology of the word is since it is not based on any Latin language or dialect, but many think it is derived from the Egyptian 'Nubt' meaning gold as areas just south of Egypt were rich in gold. However, the term has devolved over the years to mean black or "negroid" natives of the Nile Valley as opposed to the "caucasoid" Egyptians.
quote: "When his majesty took action against the Asiatic sand-dwellers, his majesty made an army of many tens of thousands from all of Upper Egypt: ...; from Lower Egypt: ...; and from Irtjet-Nubians, Medja-Nubians, Yam-Nubians, Wawat-Nubians, Kaau-Nubians; and from Tjemeh-land." --Weni the Elder
In the passage above, the term 'Nubia' is translated from the Egyptian word 'Nahasou' there is still debate as to what the word actually means. Wally recently made a thread here discussing its meaning. I disagree with his Diop based conclusion that it means "worthless" or "barbarian" but I stick to the general assumption that it means a southern or upriver people. It is with this definition that I use Nahasou or 'Nubians' similar to how I use Kememou or Egpytians.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Every region of Africa is diverse phenotypically but it doesn't mean they can match any African American!
I must say, when you get backed into a corner you do resort to some bizzare logic! LOL
quote:Zarahan, I suggest you ignore the troll and do not feed it any longer.
LMAO @ the Asian pleading for help!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogledass: I must say, when you get backed into a corner you do resort to some bizzare logic! LOL
What is "bizzare" about it?? Modern African Americans are NOT ancient Nile Valley Africans. Both groups have entirely different genetic histories. While there may be some resemblance between some individuals, others may not. Please explain how Will Smith looks "Kushite" or find me a Kushite looking like Will Smith. Better yet, why not do so in the ORIGINAL thread and not here!
quote:LMAO @ the Asian pleading for help!
LMAO Indeed at YOU, the white euro bugger with his usual misinterpretations! No doubt, caused by your desperation. Get off this thread, if you won't address the topic and most of all GET OFF MY NUTS.
As I said, it's obvious you don't want to address the actual topic perhaps because the findings bother you. So I won't appease your trolling (feed you my d*ck) anymore. You are officially ignored. Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Please explain how Will Smith looks "Kushite"
The onus is on you to explain your bizzare logic Asian. Explain how if E.African phenotype is diverse an African American such as Will Smith could not pass for one! LOL
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
I would like to see what genetic studies have been conducted on ANCIENT Egyptians to say that they do NOT have a genetic connection with W. Africans.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Bogledass: I must say, when you get backed into a corner you do resort to some bizzare logic! LOL
What is "bizzare" about it?? Modern African Americans are NOT ancient Nile Valley Africans. Both groups have entirely different genetic histories. While there may be some resemblance between some individuals, others may not. Please explain how Will Smith looks "Kushite" or find me a Kushite looking like Will Smith. Better yet, why not do so in the ORIGINAL thread and not here!
quote:LMAO @ the Asian pleading for help!
LMAO Indeed at YOU, the white euro bugger with his usual misinterpretations! No doubt, caused by your desperation. Get off this thread, if you won't address the topic and most of all GET OFF MY NUTS.
As I said, it's obvious you don't want to address the actual topic perhaps because the findings bother you. So I won't appease your trolling (feed you my d*ck) anymore. You are officially ignored.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
^uh-oh. the heat has been turned up on the little asian.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Ttbomk the ancient Egyptian DNA data hasn't been released to the public. Hawass has it but secrets it claiming it's a matter of national security.
quote:For reasons of national security, DNA test results of Egyptian mummies are usually kept confidential. Some scholars conjecture that full disclosure of the research's findings could lead to a major revision of the country's ancient dynastic history.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: I would like to see what genetic studies have been conducted on ANCIENT Egyptians to say that they do NOT have a genetic connection with W. Africans.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: I would like to see what genetic studies have been conducted on ANCIENT Egyptians to say that they do NOT have a genetic connection with W. Africans.
And where have I said ancient Egyptians have no genetic connection to West Africans??! We know for a fact that Egyptians share a number of lineages with West Africas via the Sahara. Don't make mistake of the bogled troll to misinterpret or rather read something that was never there. Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
No "misinterpretations" Asian, this is what you said "Personally, Will Smith doesn't look much a Kushite to me"
Why so? Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Djehuti wrote:
quote: What is "bizzare" about it?? Modern African Americans are NOT ancient Nile Valley Africans. Both groups have entirely different genetic histories.
Elaborate. How do African Americans and Nile Valley Africans have entirely different genetic histories?
How are they not related to ancient Nile Valley Africans?
Since you are soapboxing as this all knowing expert on this group, tell everyone who then are African Americans related to?
Now watch folks how this charlatan runs when challenged.
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Djehuti wrote: ------------------------ Every region of Africa is diverse phenotypically but it doesn't mean they can match any African American! ------------------------
Then explain why there are Eritreans who say that Will Smith looks Eritrean.
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
You indirectly stated it and I quoted it for you in the post from which I asked the question. African-Americans primarily came from west and central Africa. However, a good amount came from East and south East Africa as well.
To say African-American is to say West and Central Africans. Thus why I asked you for the reports that state there is no relation genetically with ancient Egyptians and West Africans.
This is going to be a hard sell, especially when I open Budge's dictionary and see the word Bantu in the ancient Egyptian language with the same modern meaning (people, the living, persons, etc.). In Egypt they used a different variant which is WANTU. In Budge's dictionary it is spelled UNTU. Now how did Black, "Negro" Bantu speakers insert their lexical items into the ancient Egyptian language and not be ancient Egyptians? Allegedly Bantu speakers came from West Africa (which I believe derived out of the Sudan as that was the home of the Batu nation according to Budge's dictionary as BATU is another variation of BANTU).
Again, you made the statement and I quoted it and I am asking you to defend your statement.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: I would like to see what genetic studies have been conducted on ANCIENT Egyptians to say that they do NOT have a genetic connection with W. Africans.
And where have I said ancient Egyptians have no genetic connection to West Africans??! We know for a fact that Egyptians share a number of lineages with West Africas via the Sahara. Don't make mistake of the bogled troll to misinterpret or rather read something that was never there.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
The only reason the little Asian would say something like "Both groups have entirely different genetic histories" is becuase he sees black people in America (African Americans) as some sort of genetic "group" that can be boxed, labeled and compared with ancient Egytpians. Again the Asian is caught type-casting blacks. He does it all the time.
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Folks, I've informed you repeatedly this Djehuti character is either a liberal racist or a racist posed in liberal garb.
He believes in a world racial hierarchy with Africans at the bottom. Then he has an African ethnic hierarchy with so called "west" Africans at the near bottom and diasporic Africans at the actual bottom.
This is why he is so fanatically desperate to seperate African Americans from certain parts of Africa.
You're a sick person Djehuti.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: You indirectly stated it and I quoted it for you in the post from which I asked the question. African-Americans primarily came from west and central Africa. However, a good amount came from East and south East Africa as well.
To say African-American is to say West and Central Africans. Thus why I asked you for the reports that state there is no relation genetically with ancient Egyptians and West Africans.
This is going to be a hard sell, especially when I open Budge's dictionary and see the word Bantu in the ancient Egyptian language with the same modern meaning (people, the living, persons, etc.). In Egypt they used a different variant which is WANTU. In Budge's dictionary it is spelled UNTU. Now how did Black, "Negro" Bantu speakers insert their lexical items into the ancient Egyptian language and not be ancient Egyptians? Allegedly Bantu speakers came from West Africa (which I believe derived out of the Sudan as that was the home of the Batu nation according to Budge's dictionary as BATU is another variation of BANTU).
Again, where have I stated West and Central Africans have no genetic relation to northeast Africans??! You quoted me, yet in those quotes I said no such thing. It's a fact *all* Africans share multiple lineages with each other in every part of the continent. That is not the issue. The issue is Bogledass troll and his boyfriend insisting that any African American or particularly Will Smith looked Kushite an ancient African.
Even though African Americans are primarily of African descent, they also carry some European and Native American ancestry also. You can't expect every African American to like a particular type or group of Africans let alone ancient populations whether it be west or east Africa. I make my basis not only on what Will Smith looks like but also by the many depictions of what ancient Kushites looked like also. Some African American ancestry is southern African also but do you think Will Smith looks like a Zulu or even like Shaka Zulu??
By the way, if you really want to have this discussion I suggest you take it here where it belongs! This thread is about new craniometric findings about ancient 'Nubians' and Egyptians NOT Will Smith looking Nubian! The whole silly issue of Will Smith was brought up by an idiot who was utterly debunked in his own thread so he trolls this thread and others! The troll and his boyfriend have polluted this thread enough, why do you join??
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I make my basis not only on what Will Smith looks like but also by the many depictions of what ancient Kushites looked like also
This thread is about the virtual indistinguishability of "Nubians" and Egyptians based on the multiplicity of evidence. That said, your attempt to essentialize "Kushites" as being of a certian phenotypic type that a black man such as Will Smith wouldn't fit is quite imbecilic. Your constant apologies and bizarre logic (which inevitably lapse into basic Eurocentric Nile Valley stereotyping) to justify it only exposes you as a dishonest wretch.
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
I don't think we have to be anymore clear on this. This is your exact words:
quote:Modern African Americans are NOT ancient Nile Valley Africans. Both groups have entirely different genetic histories.
1) You state that the Modern African Americans are NOT ancient Nile Valley Africans. This is to claim that these African-Americans have no affiliation culturally with Nile Valley African people which this forum has demonstrated over the years that there were migrations back and forth from and to the Nile valley from central and west Africa.
2) You claim they were genetically different as if we have the material to view and make such an assumption.
Are you now going to say that you in fact did not say what I have quoted? Are you then going to also claim that you have genetic studies that have compared all of the West Africans with the ancient Nile Valley inhabitants? Please inform me.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
The more the little Asian replies the more he ...
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: [QB] I don't think we have to be anymore clear on this. This is your exact words:
1) You state that the Modern African Americans are NOT ancient Nile Valley Africans. This is to claim that these African-Americans have no affiliation culturally with Nile Valley African people which this forum has demonstrated over the years that there were migrations back and forth from and to the Nile valley from central and west Africa.
You are arguing against a strawman Asar, maybe West and Central Africans do have a connection with Nile valley Africans because of back and forth migrations, but African Americans do not.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
^ what revealing rubbish did you just spout?
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
So as soon as the Africans who crossed over the Atlantic ocean hit the shores their whole genetic make-up changed? Are you serious?
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
Look out now for a spam of the Sforza "study" about white genes being 14-30% in AA from "the Bass"!
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: So as soon as the Africans who crossed over the Atlantic ocean hit the shores their whole genetic make-up changed? Are you serious?
If you're talking about culture there is NO connection between African Americans and Nile valley Africans, thats the bottom line. The burden of proof is on YOU to prove such a relationship, time to put up or shut up. African Americans descend primarily from West and Central Africans overall, but there are small amounts who have descent from East Africa, no one denies that, but even having shared DNA with an ancestral population does give one the right to claim anything.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
...
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
I will not get into a long debate over something that is well established. For the serious student of Nile Valley culture and history knows that Nile Valley Africans are a composite of African groups from across the continent. The primary locations of interest of people taken for the slave trade were from Sengal, Senegambia, Benin, Ghana, Nigeria,Cameroon, Congo, Angola, Mozambique and Kenya.
Now, the majority of these places are all Niger-Congo speaking areas. The linguistic and iconic cultural connections is too much for this forum and several volumes have already been written.
With that said I now direct the forum to the book titled "Africanisms in American Culture" edited by Joseph Halloway. This book is filled with iconographic, linguistic, gestorial and other cultural elements of West and Central Africa that is still present among African American cultures.
Again, I'm not going to waste too much energy here on this because you'll have people making nonsensical arguments and have not studied the material to make an argument. I will present a few observations of mine that reinforce the works articulated in Halloway (2005).
For anyone born in Florida, Louisiana, Georgia and South Carolina will know how these concepts have survived here in the states among African-American people. This again is reinforced in the work Africanism in American Culture (2005).
I am going to quote a partial response to a debate I had recently with someone else who attempted to deny west and nile valley African connections.
quote:For instance, in the Egyptian dictionaries of today you will find renderings for the consonant cluster PR to mean 'house'. The word PR-AA they render "great house" which is a mistranslation. To understand this term you have to know how African political structures are maintained, who occupies and how political office, in the traditional societies, are occupied. It should be clear, that no matter where you go in Africa, a king is a PRIEST. Anyone who holds office in his court is a PRIEST.
PR is usually rendered house, palace, seat of government. We have this in the following languages:
biro (Amarigna) - office pora (Mande, Vai, Gola, De, Kpelle, Kissi, Gbande, Belle, Loma, Mano, Gio Ge, Bassa, Kru, Mende, Kono, Temne, Lokko, Krim, Limba) - the great secret society of men beri (in Sierra Leone) - ibid, sometimes called poro. Can also refer to the secret society in general. fari - (Wolof) - supreme king fara, farba - (Wolof) - officer in charge, administrator bur (Wolof) - king fari, farima, farma (Mande) - all terms designating political functions faran (Songhai) - ibid fara (Hausa) - ibid.
This same word is found all along the E. Coast of Africa, especially the Great lakes region, among the Bantus as faro, fara, and fura. Without knowledge of initiations, its purpose and political manifestation, one will miss what is actually being referred to here. The PR-AA is not the office itself, but a secret society, an organization, made up of the educated elite who govern the society. Entry into the society is only granted to one who has been initiated into the teachings of the culture and how to run the culture. They operate from an Afrocentric perspective. They understand that you cannot govern our society without first being initiated into the history, philosophy, spiritual nuances of this society. You can't begin to interpret and understand why we do what we do unless you have been initiated into this society created to maintain the integrity of a body of knowledge of how to effectively govern our society.
This same organization made its way into the United States as a result of slavery. Among the Gullah of South Carolina the secret society became known as beri, berimo and poro all meaning "the great secret society of men." The female counterpart was called sande (bundu was another name) which is a mandatory female secret society in Sierra Leone. We may have a match with the Egyptian word sn-t (sn-d consonant match) which is usually interpreted to mean 'female'.
The million dollar question is, "how does a word and political secret society make its way from ancient Egypt to modern-day West African societies?" This is what we call a non-accidental correspondence.
The societies were turned into Insurance companies as cover here in the United States.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
I think Theophile Obenga has some useful research in the area of cultural unity in Africa. Diop too. The notion of so-called "African retentions" in the West is well established in academia. But some in here still cling to old Eurocentric notions of what is "African", hence African Americans shouldn't try to "claim" Kemet because we are West African etc etc. Charles for all his cut and pasting is still tied to massas thinking. Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Smasher: An Examination of Nubian and Egyptian biological distances: Support for biological diffusion or in situ development?
Homo. 2009;60(5):389-404. Epub 2009 Sep 19.
Godde K. Department of Anthropology, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, 250 South Stadium Hall, Knoxville, TN 37996, USA. kgodde@utk.edu
Many authors have speculated on Nubian biological evolution. Because of the contact Nubians had with other peoples, migration and/or invasion (biological diffusion) were originally thought to be the biological mechanism for skeletal changes in Nubians. Later, a new hypothesis was put forth, the in situ hypothesis. The new hypothesis postulated that Nubians evolved in situ, without much genetic influence from foreign populations. This study examined 12 Egyptian and Nubian groups in an effort to explore the relationship between the two populations and to test the in situ hypothesis. Data from nine cranial nonmetric traits were assessed for an estimate of biological distance, using Mahalanobis D(2) with a tetrachoric matrix. The distance scores were then input into principal coordinates analysis (PCO) to depict the relationships between the two populations. PCO detected 60% of the variation in the first two principal coordinates. A plot of the distance scores revealed only one cluster; the Nubian and Egyptian groups clustered together. The grouping of the Nubians and Egyptians indicates there may have been some sort of gene flow between these groups of Nubians and Egyptians. However, common adaptation to similar environments may also be responsible for this pattern. Although the predominant results in this study appear to support the biological diffusion hypothesis, the in situ hypothesis was not completely negated.
Excellent post by the Bass. One shortcoming of course would be their limited scope of interpreting these results. They make it into a case of either or (gene flow or in situ) yet don't seem to infer from this a common ancestry among the two populations. This point may not seem as relevant though given their notation on Badari crania, once again and undeniably reaffirming the Africanity of the AEs from inception.
Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: I think Theophile Obenga has some useful research in the area of cultural unity in Africa. Diop too. The notion of so-called "African retentions" in the West is well established in academia. But some in here still cling to old Eurocentric notions of what is "African", hence African Americans shouldn't try to "claim" Kemet because we are West African etc etc. Charles for all his cut and pasting is still tied to massas thinking.
Strangely enough though- few Europeans object when North Europeans like the English celebrate the glory that was Greece. Shouldn't this be "forbidden" since they are "North" European?
Nor do Europeans seem to have much conscience about appropriating Egyptian art, iconography, styles, architecture etc in popular culture, artifacts and even dozens of ancient Egyptian bodies in their museums which they refuse to return. They desecrate many of the graves of the ancients for their collections- public and private, then hypocritically lecture those who have NOT done so, (blacks), about that they are "supposed" to think about the peoples of the ancient Nile valley. turns out that "the bleks" those Nubians are the closest people ethnically to the Egyptians.
Also turns out that in head to head comparisons of limb proportions, tropically adapted people like US Blacks are closer to the ancients than whites.
Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: I will not get into a long debate over something that is well established. For the serious student of Nile Valley culture and history knows that Nile Valley Africans are a composite of African groups from across the continent. The primary locations of interest of people taken for the slave trade were from Sengal, Senegambia, Benin, Ghana, Nigeria,Cameroon, Congo, Angola, Mozambique and Kenya.
Now, the majority of these places are all Niger-Congo speaking areas. The linguistic and iconic cultural connections is too much for this forum and several volumes have already been written.
With that said I now direct the forum to the book titled "Africanisms in American Culture" edited by Joseph Halloway. This book is filled with iconographic, linguistic, gestorial and other cultural elements of West and Central Africa that is still present among African American cultures.
Again, I'm not going to waste too much energy here on this because you'll have people making nonsensical arguments and have not studied the material to make an argument. I will present a few observations of mine that reinforce the works articulated in Halloway (2005).
For anyone born in Florida, Louisiana, Georgia and South Carolina will know how these concepts have survived here in the states among African-American people. This again is reinforced in the work Africanism in American Culture (2005).
I am going to quote a partial response to a debate I had recently with someone else who attempted to deny west and nile valley African connections.
quote:For instance, in the Egyptian dictionaries of today you will find renderings for the consonant cluster PR to mean 'house'. The word PR-AA they render "great house" which is a mistranslation. To understand this term you have to know how African political structures are maintained, who occupies and how political office, in the traditional societies, are occupied. It should be clear, that no matter where you go in Africa, a king is a PRIEST. Anyone who holds office in his court is a PRIEST.
PR is usually rendered house, palace, seat of government. We have this in the following languages:
biro (Amarigna) - office pora (Mande, Vai, Gola, De, Kpelle, Kissi, Gbande, Belle, Loma, Mano, Gio Ge, Bassa, Kru, Mende, Kono, Temne, Lokko, Krim, Limba) - the great secret society of men beri (in Sierra Leone) - ibid, sometimes called poro. Can also refer to the secret society in general. fari - (Wolof) - supreme king fara, farba - (Wolof) - officer in charge, administrator bur (Wolof) - king fari, farima, farma (Mande) - all terms designating political functions faran (Songhai) - ibid fara (Hausa) - ibid.
This same word is found all along the E. Coast of Africa, especially the Great lakes region, among the Bantus as faro, fara, and fura. Without knowledge of initiations, its purpose and political manifestation, one will miss what is actually being referred to here. The PR-AA is not the office itself, but a secret society, an organization, made up of the educated elite who govern the society. Entry into the society is only granted to one who has been initiated into the teachings of the culture and how to run the culture. They operate from an Afrocentric perspective. They understand that you cannot govern our society without first being initiated into the history, philosophy, spiritual nuances of this society. You can't begin to interpret and understand why we do what we do unless you have been initiated into this society created to maintain the integrity of a body of knowledge of how to effectively govern our society.
This same organization made its way into the United States as a result of slavery. Among the Gullah of South Carolina the secret society became known as beri, berimo and poro all meaning "the great secret society of men." The female counterpart was called sande (bundu was another name) which is a mandatory female secret society in Sierra Leone. We may have a match with the Egyptian word sn-t (sn-d consonant match) which is usually interpreted to mean 'female'.
The million dollar question is, "how does a word and political secret society make its way from ancient Egypt to modern-day West African societies?" This is what we call a non-accidental correspondence.
The societies were turned into Insurance companies as cover here in the United States.
Interesting details. Most of the published scholarship shows the cultural elements with the Sudan and Ethiopia/East Africa. So you are saying that some of these West African cultural elements link also with those of Egypt? I think it could be argued that the medium of the Sahara links both the Nile Valley and parts of West Africa. The Sahara once extended across 1/3 of Africa. a lush greenbelt, more than able to provide a two-way route across vast areas of the continent given time in centuries or millenia. If Keita, Lovell and others found the foundational populations such as the Badari linking with tropical Africans, the West African connection could well be (a) via the Sudan, or (b) via more westerly Saharan routes into the Nile Valley. Does the kingship aspect tie into what we have in the Nile Valley?
Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Smasher: An Examination of Nubian and Egyptian biological distances: Support for biological diffusion or in situ development?
Homo. 2009;60(5):389-404. Epub 2009 Sep 19.
Godde K. Department of Anthropology, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, 250 South Stadium Hall, Knoxville, TN 37996, USA. kgodde@utk.edu
Many authors have speculated on Nubian biological evolution. Because of the contact Nubians had with other peoples, migration and/or invasion (biological diffusion) were originally thought to be the biological mechanism for skeletal changes in Nubians. Later, a new hypothesis was put forth, the in situ hypothesis. The new hypothesis postulated that Nubians evolved in situ, without much genetic influence from foreign populations. This study examined 12 Egyptian and Nubian groups in an effort to explore the relationship between the two populations and to test the in situ hypothesis. Data from nine cranial nonmetric traits were assessed for an estimate of biological distance, using Mahalanobis D(2) with a tetrachoric matrix. The distance scores were then input into principal coordinates analysis (PCO) to depict the relationships between the two populations. PCO detected 60% of the variation in the first two principal coordinates. A plot of the distance scores revealed only one cluster; the Nubian and Egyptian groups clustered together. The grouping of the Nubians and Egyptians indicates there may have been some sort of gene flow between these groups of Nubians and Egyptians. However, common adaptation to similar environments may also be responsible for this pattern. Although the predominant results in this study appear to support the biological diffusion hypothesis, the in situ hypothesis was not completely negated.
Excellent post by the Bass. One shortcoming of course would be their limited scope of interpreting these results. They make it into a case of either or (gene flow or in situ) yet don't seem to infer from this a common ancestry among the two populations. This point may not seem as relevant though given their notation on Badari crania, once again and undeniably reaffirming the Africanity of the AEs from inception.
Indeed. And I think Godde somewhat understates the cultural links. It is not only as laborers or soldiers that Nubians appear but also as spouses, royal officials and pharaohs.
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
@Zarahan
The issue at hand here is that many people have the whole make-up of the ancient Nile Valley society all screwed up because they have been trying to analyze the culture through a European lens. What is now called Egypt was a confederacy of various different ethnic groups that were divided into 42 "nomes." These various groups spoke different languages and dialects. Mdw Ntr is a trade and intellectual script used to write many different African languages.
The Nile Valley cultures actually was centered in the Sudan. The Sudan is the true hub. It is from there that everyone dispersed and kept cultural ties. The following link helps to explain the thrust which caused Nile Valley civilization:
I wrote an article about the African Superhighway of Wisdom that might interest the forum. If you understand this, then you'll understand what was going on and still is going on on the continent. Anyone talking about West and East Africans were not in communication and shared the same culture are kidding themselves. They are operating on the notion that Egypt was a mono-cultural society.
Once you understand that it was not a mono-cultural society, then you can begin to do real historical work. You look for the individual cultural elements that contributed and was expanded in Egypt: NOT what Egypt "gave" to the other African cultures.
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
This study just further proves what i've been saying all along, that AE's=/ Ancient Upper Egyptians were physically indistinguishable from so-called "Nubians"/Ancient Northern Sudanese ethnicities before the incursion of Asiatics/Semites and Nilo-saharans.
I guess this puts the final nail in the coffin on those so-called "Nubian captive" images based on simplistic and convenient interpretations from these Egyptologists.
It's not a coincidence that the statues of the 25th dynasty regents like Taharqa, Piye and Shebitku etc. are all depicted exactly like the regents of 16th, 17th and 18th dynasties which w all are obviously undoubtedly indigenous Upper Egyptian families. Upper Egyptians are closer to lower Sudanese than they are to people of Delta Egypt. It's like comparing the ethnical difference of the Parthians and Sassanids of Persia, redicoulas and obviously the AE/Nubian dichotomy is only kept alive due to modern politics!
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: I think Theophile Obenga has some useful research in the area of cultural unity in Africa. Diop too. The notion of so-called "African retentions" in the West is well established in academia. But some in here still cling to old Eurocentric notions of what is "African", hence African Americans shouldn't try to "claim" Kemet because we are West African etc etc. Charles for all his cut and pasting is still tied to massas thinking.
Well, majority of AAs feel superior than their African brothers. You know, not civilized, like what they did to Liberia.
Posted by ArtistFormerlyKnownAsHeru (Member # 11484) on :
Majority?
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
They do look down on us, and believe what they see on TV. Otherwise, why is there no opposition on AFRICOM [modern day Liberia], and they even placed a Black man on the command. Talk about white man's burden.
BTW, you only need to talk to AA to realised how they see us. They only believe what the white man preaches on TV.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
I am reading these days the essays of the great James Baldwin [a must read!], and he writes about an encounter between a group of African American students and African students in Paris, and despite their similarity on the outside [skin colour], there was not much in-common between these groups - despite it was in the time of popular up-rise against European colonialism in Africa where many African students in France engaged in. Unlike their African brothers, they had other fights to fight on - an unpleasant fight - identity struggle.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
^ it seems you just broke up with your African American boyfriend or something. These sort of nasty generalisations is unlike you Arwa. Anyway, it's off topic.
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
^ lol! Boyfriend? Nah! Too busy.
I am just reading James Baldwin these days, and the other night I woke up 3am to read his essays.
It is off topic, but an important issue. I will try to start a topic once I get a time.
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Originally posted by ArtistFormerlyKnownAsHeru: Majority?
Don't mind Arwa, it's already established that she posts from a treatment institution, just handle her like you do your pets, approach her with careful delicacy and whatever you do try your best to avoid direct confrontation like questioning her views or disagreeing with her home-made political philosophies like Nkrumaism, Aminism, Mbutism, Mugabeti-doctrine and the rest of her passionate theories and visions on black revolution/empowerment, and you'll do just fine.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: @Zarahan
The issue at hand here is that many people have the whole make-up of the ancient Nile Valley society all screwed up because they have been trying to analyze the culture through a European lens. What is now called Egypt was a confederacy of various different ethnic groups that were divided into 42 "nomes." These various groups spoke different languages and dialects. Mdw Ntr is a trade and intellectual script used to write many different African languages.
The Nile Valley cultures actually was centered in the Sudan. The Sudan is the true hub. It is from there that everyone dispersed and kept cultural ties. The following link helps to explain the thrust which caused Nile Valley civilization:
I wrote an article about the African Superhighway of Wisdom that might interest the forum. If you understand this, then you'll understand what was going on and still is going on on the continent. Anyone talking about West and East Africans were not in communication and shared the same culture are kidding themselves. They are operating on the notion that Egypt was a mono-cultural society.
Once you understand that it was not a mono-cultural society, then you can begin to do real historical work. You look for the individual cultural elements that contributed and was expanded in Egypt: NOT what Egypt "gave" to the other African cultures.
Posted by ArtistFormerlyKnownAsHeru (Member # 11484) on :
quote:Originally posted by Arwa: I am reading these days the essays of the great James Baldwin [a must read!], and he writes about an encounter between a group of African American students and African students in Paris, and despite their similarity on the outside [skin colour], there was not much in-common between these groups -
I got along too well with the African-American/Indian and Ethiopians from Toronto on exchange back in my Uni days. Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Hay stop picking on lil sista..as she is on the money about a lot o things..but I have to disagree with you lil sis..about the generalizing thing..yes you will find some people like that but..the majority of AA folks I know are pan-Africanist in mind.
I agree with Asar Imhotept's position that we need to look at all history from a more holistic point of view...while still maintaining credibility.How do we achieve that?
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Arwa wrote: ----------------------- BTW, you only need to talk to AA to realised how they see us. They only believe what the white man preaches on TV. -----------------------
Which tells you exactly what their intelligence level is.
What type of person bitches and moans about whites and then turns around and repeat the racist propaganda about themselves and their origins from those they claim are racist and hate them in the first place?
Let's be honest most AAs aren't even bare bones intelligent.
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
.Charlie Bass. wrote:
quote: If you're talking about culture there is NO connection between African Americans and Nile valley Africans, thats the bottom line. The burden of proof is on YOU to prove such a relationship, time to put up or shut up. African Americans descend primarily from West and Central Africans overall, but there are small amounts who have descent from East Africa, no one denies that, but even having shared DNA with an ancestral population does give one the right to claim anything.
Then why the hell have you been wasting your every waking hour stalking race loon groups and begging them to accept a black Egypt?
This just illustrates how either stupid or crazy you are.
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Asar Imhotep wrote:
quote: "To say African-American is to say West and Central Africans."
"The primary locations of interest of people taken for the slave trade were from Sengal, Senegambia, Benin, Ghana, Nigeria,Cameroon, Congo, Angola, Mozambique and Kenya."
On what do you base the above statements on?
Don't run away from the question. If you do, it shows that you are not here to inform or learn but instead here to spread emotional racial dogma.
We're waiting Asar Imhotep.......
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
Again, I don't argue about established information. If you are serious about your inquiry read Africanisms in American Culture edited by Joseph Halloway. You can also read Philip Curtain's work The Atlantic Slave Trade: A Census (1969). Only after you have read these works can you ask me any more questions on the subject.
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Folks this is a case of a fool watching to much white oriented entertainment. TV, movies, dvds, etc.
See in this bogus make believe world of entertainment, if the character is deemed as not attractive he is either a villain or a lowly individual. If the character is considered attractive they are at most successful or at worst overcome to achieve something positive.
In the make believe world of Hollywood nothing horrific ever happens to the people considered attractive, people who are considered attractive and want to play a villain must undergo a makeover to make themselves less attractive in order for them to play the role.
Asar Imhotep you are on here spreading racial dogma propaganda because you believe that people from certain nations are not attractive therefore in your fucked up mind it makes sense to proclaim them as slaves.
At the same time you cannot fathom people who you believe to be at the very least "not" "unattractive" to have been slaves.
Boy turn off that TEE VEE. Life is not that simplistic and the tee vee certainly is not realistic.
People this is yet another example of an AA bitching and moaning about racial propaganda, while at the same time expousing the same said propaganda he bitches and moans about.
Asar Imhotep why does your mind work like that?
Posted by ArtistFormerlyKnownAsHeru (Member # 11484) on :
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
As I said, this topic needs its own thread, and I'll create one very soon. Meanwhile, I base my observation, among other things, the percentage of Black AAs who voted for Obama, and it tells you something how careless these people are even to make a background check on this man and where he stands on the question of Pan-Africanism. The majority [99,9999%] two years before the election had no clue who he was, and I remember after the election people [AAs] would claim that this Obama will set free the Blacks from Brazil to the city of Basra [Iraq, where the majority of Black Iraqis live].
Let us be real. The idea of Pan-Africanism as we were taught is dead, and these people were wrong. As Baldwin wrote, how can you bring together two groups who were separated more than 300 years? It is best for AAs to lead their own way and make their own destiny.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by argyle104: .Charlie Bass. wrote:
quote: If you're talking about culture there is NO connection between African Americans and Nile valley Africans, thats the bottom line. The burden of proof is on YOU to prove such a relationship, time to put up or shut up. African Americans descend primarily from West and Central Africans overall, but there are small amounts who have descent from East Africa, no one denies that, but even having shared DNA with an ancestral population does give one the right to claim anything.
Then why the hell have you been wasting your every waking hour stalking race loon groups and begging them to accept a black Egypt?
LOL exactly!
quote:As Baldwin wrote, how can you bring together two groups who were separated more than 300 years? It is best for AAs to lead their own way and make their own destiny.
Arwa I see you have finally thrown in the towel and sent in your application for the CIA! Such talk is characteristic of those on their pay roll!
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
quote:Originally posted by ArtistFormerlyKnownAsHeru: I got along too well with the African-American/Indian and Ethiopians from Toronto on exchange back in my Uni days. [/QB]
Well, I got along very well with Racist people at my former workplace, and?
Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
payroll??? If you only knew my economic situation; you would say I need a stimulus package like AIG received.
Come on guys, let us have a discussion. Let us examine. Humans develop to improve old ideas. Look at mathematicians or even the relationship between Plato & Aristotle. I am no way rejecting and insulting our scholars, but they were not gods. They were humans, and if they lived today, they would be happy that are people who are interested to improve their achievements. That is what a scholar wants for his students. No?
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
The idea that western black people should be separated from continental Africans or that one is more "radical" than the other is not a "new" idea. It is old rubbish. Stay on topic: Nubians and Egytpians and the persistence of racial thinking re some people insisting blacks like Will Smith couldn't pass for Nubian. Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
A question for those disagree with me.
Where is the Pan-Africanism movement in America?
What I observe is that AAs decided to lead their own path, and how they see Africa? Well, they are pretty much comfortable with the idea philanthropy - like U2, Madonna and Oprah, and band aid concert.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: Again, I don't argue about established information. If you are serious about your inquiry read Africanisms in American Culture edited by Joseph Halloway. You can also read Philip Curtain's work The Atlantic Slave Trade: A Census (1969). Only after you have read these works can you ask me any more questions on the subject.
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
.Charlie Bass. wrote:
quote: If you're talking about culture there is NO connection between African Americans and Nile valley Africans, thats the bottom line. The burden of proof is on YOU to prove such a relationship, time to put up or shut up. African Americans descend primarily from West and Central Africans overall, but there are small amounts who have descent from East Africa, no one denies that, but even having shared DNA with an ancestral population does give one the right to claim anything.
No its time for you to either put up or shut up. Either back up your statement or run like I know you will like a kid from cough syrip.
This is a scholarly forum mindless opinion don't cut it here.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogledass: This thread is about the virtual indistinguishability of "Nubians" and Egyptians based on the multiplicity of evidence. That said, your attempt to essentialize "Kushites" as being of a certian phenotypic type that a black man such as Will Smith wouldn't fit is quite imbecilic. Your constant apologies and bizarre logic (which inevitably lapse into basic Eurocentric Nile Valley stereotyping) to justify it only exposes you as a dishonest wretch.
If you were paying attention to what was written you would know "Nubians" encompassed a variety of peoples. Kushites or the Keshli as they were called were one specific group of 'Nubians'. Both Egyptians and 'Nubians' in general will possess close affinities to each other because they are BOTH populations indigenous to the same area of Africa. However, as diverse as Nile Valley or northeast Africans are that does not mean they can phenotypically match anyone of African descent like say any African American and vice-versa.
Will Smith is a modern day African-American but him having African descent does not mean he can match the actual looks of a certain African person or group especially one from ancient times, moron!
I'm sure all the intelligent posters can understand this basic premise above. Again, if YOU don't, too bad! But I will no longer entertain your off-topic whiney b*tch trolling. Zarahan, Charles, and others had the right idea to ignore you and continue with the actual topic. So will I.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Will Smith is a modern day African-American but him having African descent does not mean he can match the actual looks of a certain African person or group especially one from ancient times, moron!
So again, even though blacks of the Nile Valley are diverse in phenotype none would match Will Smith who is also black. Did Will Smith drop from sky or something? You sound as defeated as Charles. lol
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by argyle104: .Charlie Bass. wrote:
quote: If you're talking about culture there is NO connection between African Americans and Nile valley Africans, thats the bottom line. The burden of proof is on YOU to prove such a relationship, time to put up or shut up. African Americans descend primarily from West and Central Africans overall, but there are small amounts who have descent from East Africa, no one denies that, but even having shared DNA with an ancestral population does give one the right to claim anything.
No its time for you to either put up or shut up. Either back up your statement or run like I know you will like a kid from cough syrip.
This is a scholarly forum mindless opinion don't cut it here.
Put or shut up about what stupid? Its on ASAR to back his claims, the Bass was the one who started this thread and it had nothing to do with what ASAR is talking about.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: Put or shut up about what stupid? Its on ASAR to back his claims
And he did, now please shut up.
quote:the Bass was the one who started this thread and it had nothing to do with what ASAR is talking about
Then why did you jump all over him to "put up or shut up", and then ran away when he backed up his claims? lol
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle:
quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: Put or shut up about what stupid? Its on ASAR to back his claims
And he did, now please shut up.
quote:the Bass was the one who started this thread and it had nothing to do with what ASAR is talking about
Then why did you jump all over him to "put up or shut up", and then ran away when he backed up his claims? lol
He didn't back up any claim that African Americans and Nile valley Africans are culturally connected you idiot.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
LOL the little southern negro cannot read! No wonder you gleefully cut and paste white Eurocentrics like Sforza without understanding him! lol
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: LOL the little southern negro cannot read! No wonder you gleefully cut and paste white Eurocentrics like Sforza without understanding him! lol
You are on ignore, find another penis to try to latch onto.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
It seems you have Asar on ignore also. You have yet to respond to his post after he embarassed your dumbass. lol
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
.Charlie Bass. are you saying that African Americans have no ancestral ties to North Africa?
We're waiting for your answer Charlie......
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
.Charlie Bass. if as you say it was only "west" and "central" Africans brought over, then how do you explain the below?
As you can see Charlie there are extensive listings of so called "berbers" and arabs being brought over.
We're waiting Charlie......
Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
quote:Originally posted by argyle104: Arwa wrote: ----------------------- BTW, you only need to talk to AA to realised how they see us. They only believe what the white man preaches on TV. -----------------------
Which tells you exactly what their intelligence level is.
What type of person bitches and moans about whites and then turns around and repeat the racist propaganda about themselves and their origins from those they claim are racist and hate them in the first place?
Let's be honest most AAs aren't even bare bones intelligent.
Humans are generally pretty mediocre. Some winners and a whole bunch of losers. I am not saying it's natural, well it is, but rather that it is aided by our faulty institutions.
Just look at the white users on the forum. You'd expect higher intellectual access. I expect a lot more despite the high access to privilege. This has a lot to do with inherited traits from their failed parents.
Saying that, African-Americans have to access the same European systems. To become prosperous, one has to maximize their proximity vs. Europeans. It is for that reason why mobile Blacks tend to disconnect themselves from Africa.
This phenomena exists amongst Levantine/ Maghrebian Arabs and Turks as well. That population along with Turks are very ignorant. Poor political mobilization and obsession of being white. Did I stress under-educated?
These groups perform terrible in nations where university is free. If not, free, heavily subsidized. There is no need to head to a bank and grab a parasitic loan, in order to gain a university education.
Completing high school in any nation and was never an accomplishment. Those teachers you meet are largely fifth-rate college graduates. I would not place so much value in such a shoddy education platform.
In addition, entering some arts or business (is that **** even real?) program is a minor task as well. You don't need to be a wizard. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying these programs are useless. Just do what you want to do, but let's not kid ourselves, it's not that hard to enter in most nations. Completing the degree is another story, however, but not impossible.
As for me, I got a home loan on my head, but that doesn't stop me from acquiring a tertiary education within the sciences. Higher education within engineering and medicine aren't cheap either. These are areas anyone can enter (I don't consider myself a wizard), but the lack of economic development within African-American communities makes it very costly game where the odds are against blacks.
However, those white-wannabe groups, tend to be stunningly uneducated and have entered like cockroaches. In much of the West, black migration is very limited. I know this well, because I've never seen darker skinned Egyptians, Saudis or Yemenites. Ironically, I see Saudis darker than myself, but as international students in higher education.
Interestingly, Indians, despite their black skin, are quite common. However that has to do with a home base numbering over 1 billion. The pale skinned groups, on the other hand, are often more numerous or comparable in numbers despite having a home population that resembles an Indian metro in terms of size.
That large size and recent arrival should turn that population into a superpower. Most Blacks, in the West, were brought in, and developed in a nation that is not comparable to the welfare-dependent Tunisians or Turks within Australia or France. The violence against blacks by non/state actors in US, historically, often exceeded former European colonies.
The after-effects continued to remain (just look at the indigenous peoples) and the socialization is still a joke. Education, not to mention local economy and housing, is downright atrocious. The projects in Amsterdam or Paris look like upper class areas. Education is covered, one can even go on welfare, and ignoring social forces, the sky is the, fucking, limit.
Black immigration in the West, in contrast, is very limited. I see some Somalis here and there. However considering that the most racially diverse state is 85% pale-skinned, blacks need to have a much larger population to prosper. That's because the in/out-group mentality exists and a caste system ends up developing. Pale-skinned West Asians are more likely to be selected in high paying jobs.
Somalis, Yemenites, even East Asians, have a much lower chance. That is why the last group enters with money and out competes the rest in the professional sector. Blacks can only enter mobilization through that sector, but economic barriers limit that. Scholarships tend to be very pathetic and largely directed (>90%) to white students.
The majority of Blacks in US were brought in 400 years ago. That included a history where indigenous cultures were stripped and replaced with a regressive Christian culture. Your group, argyle104, are just as regressive. That's ironic considering Magrebians aren't being enslaved, maintain their current culture, and live in safe housing projects.
Having said that, I could do the same **** as you, Argyle. It isn't very difficult to ignore social forces. Humans are frail animals and very sensitive to social forces. The irony is that my educated, but racist, white colleagues, despite pale-skinned Muslim populations. I could write a dissertation on their perception and the insecure, hyper reactive, pale skinned ingrates of Europe. Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
quote:Originally posted by argyle104: .Charlie Bass. are you saying that African Americans have no ancestral ties to North Africa?
We're waiting for your answer Charlie......
If he suggested that, his answer wouldn't be correct. It really depends on the time frame.
For instance, no one distinguishes the more geographically disconnected R1a and b or its derivatives. This ideally should be done within Africa as well.
However, regardless of that, Africans, for most of history, even after OOA migration, lived within a similar region. The first migrants who entered "West Africa" when it was hyper arid developed characteristics associated with the Pgymies.
In other words, one can only be a native of "West Africa" if belonging to that group. However the definition of "native" can change if we look at the region after the expansion of Sahelians. This development led to two distinct groups living within the same region.
On to African-Americans, the majority do not belong to the pgymy group. Some may, but the majority don't. Instead their ancestral roots lie within the Sahel. The Sudanese Belt (Rosa et al.) origin of E1b1a is not West Africa proper, as far as I know. Most, if not all, of the Sahel is in East and North Africa.
Having said that, people are taking geography too seriously. Do understand that there is nothing scientific about geography. It is a human construct and not necessarily based on geology. Go back to school and slap that sub-standard teacher who taught otherwise.
Most "West Africans" are heavily North Africans. Take the Hausa-Fulani people who speak an Afro-Asiatic language. E3a, on the other hand, is found in East Africa proper and in Upper Egypt as well. The distribution of the population is clearly concentrated within the Sahel or East/North Africa.
Posted by ArtistFormerlyKnownAsHeru (Member # 11484) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
Having said that, people are taking geography too seriously. Do understand that there is nothing scientific about geography. It is a human construct and not necessarily based on geology. Go back to school and slap that sub-standard teacher who taught otherwise.
Indeed, found out just this night that Jamie Oliver (British celeb chef guy) is a 6th generation immigrant Sudanese man.
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Charlie Bass
We're waiting..........
Folks, what this proves is that Charlie cannot refute the facts and has nothing of substance to say outside of whatever make believe world of pseudoscience and its partner, pseudohistory instructs him to believe.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: If you're talking about culture there is NO connection between African Americans and Nile valley Africans, thats the bottom line
Charlie Brown you better get your a** in this thread too. It seems you're getting your a** kicked all over the place! Posted by Novel (Member # 14348) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote: Humans are generally pretty mediocre. Some winners and a whole bunch of losers. I am not saying it's natural, well it is, but rather that it is aided by our faulty institutions.
Just look at the white users on the forum. You'd expect higher intellectual access. I expect a lot more despite the high access to privilege. This has a lot to do with inherited traits from their failed parents.
Saying that, African-Americans have to access the same European systems. To become prosperous, one has to maximize their proximity vs. Europeans. It is for that reason why mobile Blacks tend to disconnect themselves from Africa.
This phenomena exists amongst Levantine/ Maghrebian Arabs and Turks as well. That population along with Turks are very ignorant. Poor political mobilization and obsession of being white. Did I stress under-educated?
These groups perform terrible in nations where university is free. If not, free, heavily subsidized. There is no need to head to a bank and grab a parasitic loan, in order to gain a university education.
Completing high school in any nation and was never an accomplishment. Those teachers you meet are largely fifth-rate college graduates. I would not place so much value in such a shoddy education platform.
In addition, entering some arts or business (is that **** even real?) program is a minor task as well. You don't need to be a wizard. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying these programs are useless. Just do what you want to do, but let's not kid ourselves, it's not that hard to enter in most nations. Completing the degree is another story, however, but not impossible.
As for me, I got a home loan on my head, but that doesn't stop me from acquiring a tertiary education within the sciences. Higher education within engineering and medicine aren't cheap either. These are areas anyone can enter (I don't consider myself a wizard), but the lack of economic development within African-American communities makes it very costly game where the odds are against blacks.
However, those white-wannabe groups, tend to be stunningly uneducated and have entered like cockroaches. In much of the West, black migration is very limited. I know this well, because I've never seen darker skinned Egyptians, Saudis or Yemenites. Ironically, I see Saudis darker than myself, but as international students in higher education.
Interestingly, Indians, despite their black skin, are quite common. However that has to do with a home base numbering over 1 billion. The pale skinned groups, on the other hand, are often more numerous or comparable in numbers despite having a home population that resembles an Indian metro in terms of size.
That large size and recent arrival should turn that population into a superpower. Most Blacks, in the West, were brought in, and developed in a nation that is not comparable to the welfare-dependent Tunisians or Turks within Australia or France. The violence against blacks by non/state actors in US, historically, often exceeded former European colonies.
The after-effects continued to remain (just look at the indigenous peoples) and the socialization is still a joke. Education, not to mention local economy and housing, is downright atrocious. The projects in Amsterdam or Paris look like upper class areas. Education is covered, one can even go on welfare, and ignoring social forces, the sky is the, fucking, limit.
Black immigration in the West, in contrast, is very limited. I see some Somalis here and there. However considering that the most racially diverse state is 85% pale-skinned, blacks need to have a much larger population to prosper. That's because the in/out-group mentality exists and a caste system ends up developing. Pale-skinned West Asians are more likely to be selected in high paying jobs.
Somalis, Yemenites, even East Asians, have a much lower chance. That is why the last group enters with money and out competes the rest in the professional sector. Blacks can only enter mobilization through that sector, but economic barriers limit that. Scholarships tend to be very pathetic and largely directed (>90%) to white students.
The majority of Blacks in US were brought in 400 years ago. That included a history where indigenous cultures were stripped and replaced with a regressive Christian culture. Your group, are just as regressive. That's ironic considering Magrebians aren't being enslaved, maintain their current culture, and live in safe housing projects.
It isn't very difficult to ignore social forces. Humans are frail animals and very sensitive to social forces. The irony is that my educated, but racist, white colleagues, despite pale-skinned Muslim populations. I could write a dissertation on their perception and the insecure, hyper reactive, pale skinned ingrates of Europe.
Said nicely! The African Americans are a robust ethnic community. Here is a population that survived assaults and humiliations by a violence-prone group of settlers and opportunists who worshipped Mammon.
Despite hatred and violence perpetrated against the Black community, they have developed into contenders for power and prestige in the modern USA.
We should be proud and supportive of our brothers and sisters in America...and have highest regards toward all variations of Black (African or Asian) and even a few whites who never utilized the racial card as initiated by white Western Europeans on the American continent and elsewhere.
And whenever that black quintessential American community behaves in bewildering manner, remember that a sea of malevolent white folks surrounded them for generations. Open and hidden hostility would scar any minority group.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
BUMP
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: Further research should incorporate more populations the Nubians were in contact with, to further shed light on Nubian population structure.
I'd definitely like to see a comparison between Egyptians, Nubians, and southern Sudanic populations. I've always pictured ancient Nubians as looking like southern Sudanese and I want to know if they really did look like that.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ If you recall anything written about Nubians including this thread, you would remember that 1. so-called "Nubians" were primarily north Sudanese and 2. "Nubians" vary in features. The latter is the reason why in some tomb paintings Nubians looked no different from Egyptians, while others just looked darker with thin lips and pointy noses and others still had stereotypical broad features.
One thing that should be pointed out is that not only were 'Nubians' diverse from the start but that during Middle Kingdom times Kush had an empire of its own that stretched from the Nile Valley lands proper to God knows where. Kush's imperial state was discussed in a couple of threads in the past so I hope someone can find them if I can't.
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Djehuti wrote: ----------------------------- others still had stereotypical broad features. -----------------------------
Stereotypical to whom? Your sorry ass?
Why the f__k do you always have to bring your crazy racialism into every discussion involving Africans? Did your sorry philopeeeeeno island run out of dogs to put on the menu?
Posted by SirInfamous (Member # 16497) on :
Hey Bass does this study compare Nubians and Egyptians to any other populations besides one another?
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by SirInfamous: Hey Bass does this study compare Nubians and Egyptians to any other populations besides one another?
quote:Badarian crania, in comparison to dynastic groups, are slight and less robust than their later counterparts (Angel, 1972; Morant, 1935; Stoessiger, 1927). Stoessiger (1927) likened the gracile nature of the Badarians to the gracile nature of the people from Naqada, but she pointed out that the Badarians are more prognathic. On this basis, many have postulated that the Badarians are relatives to South African populations (Morant, 1935 G. Morant, A study of predynastic Egyptian skulls from Badari based on measurements taken by Miss BN Stoessiger and Professor DE Derry, Biometrika 27 (1935), pp. 293–309.Morant, 1935; Mukherjee et al., 1955; Irish and Konigsberg, 2007). The archaeological evidence points to this relationship as well. (Hassan, 1986) and (Hassan, 1988) noted similarities between Badarian pottery and the Neolithic Khartoum type, indicating an archaeological affinity among Badarians and Africans from more southern regions. Furthermore, like the Badarians, Naqada has also been classified with other African groups, namely the Teita (Crichton, 1996; Keita, 1990).
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Who's lying? He doesn't look Kushite or any Nile Valley African. And the only troll here is YOU who brings baggage of defeat and humiliation onto other threads such as this! Get over it, you idiot-loser! LOL![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
No doubt, caused by your desperation. Get off this thread, if you won't address the topic and most of all GET OFF MY NUTS. ![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
One shortcoming of course would be their limited scope of interpreting these results. They make it into a case of either or (gene flow or in situ) yet don't seem to infer from this a common ancestry among the two populations. This point may not seem as relevant though given their notation on Badari crania, once again and undeniably reaffirming the Africanity of the AEs from inception.
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![[Eek!]](eek.gif)