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Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
 
Excerpted Data from Keita 2008
in:
Bengston, John D. (ed.), In Hot Pursuit of Language in Prehistory: Essays in the four fields of anthropology. 2008. John Benjamins Publishing: pp. 3-16)



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Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
 
Excerpted Data from Keita 2008
in:
Bengston, John D. (ed.), In Hot Pursuit of Language in Prehistory: Essays in the four fields of anthropology. 2008. John Benjamins Publishing: pp. 3-16)



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Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
 
quote:

"This would suggest that an ancient population of East Africa, or more correctly its males, form the basis of the ancestors of all African upper Paleolithic populations- and their subsequenst descendants in the present day. It would be tempting to relate linguistics to this, by postulating an ancestral paleo-african language.."


So East Africans as ancestors for all Upper Paleolithic populations and after in Africa, including Berbers. Also possibly a pan African language to be discovered in the future by geneticists and language specialists working together?
 

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Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
 
Nice how he places all the studies together.
Do you have the full paper?
 

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Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
 
^^ This is about 90% of it minus references. Looking now for Bengston book in my local library.
 

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Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
 
Here is a quote from another page in keita's study and some diagrams put together for comparison..


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Here is the missing page 8 from Keita:


 

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Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
 
^ Has anyone notice the frequency of B-M60 in the Egyptian samples? Taking the history of what we know about the nile valley into consideration I am surprised that more samples dont mirror this.
28% In Northern Egypt
43% In southern Egypt

This is from the study called :

Combined Use of Biallelic and Microsatellite Y-Chromosome Polymorphisms to Infer Affinities among African Populations

Rosaria Scozzari, Fulvio Cruciani et al

Egyptian samples are always all over the place.
I have the full text if anyone wants it.

From the full text:

quote:

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Figure 5 illustrates how, via the microsatellite-
allele states, the haplotypes 1C found in Europe
could be related to those from northern Cameroon.
Two almost-separate subnetworks have been identified
that are linked to each other through a single haplotype,
attesting to a long history of independent evolution. The
following two hypotheses are compatible with our observations:
(1) ancient episodes of gene flow transferred
the founders of haplotype 1C subnetworks from central
Africa to Europe, or vice versa, through northern Africa,
and (2) a third gene pool containing haplotype 1C, from
which the European and African haplotypes 1C were
840 Am. J. Hum. Genet. 65:829–846, 1999
derived, exists. The recent data reported by Karafet et
al. (1999) cast light on this issue and favor the second
hypothesis, describing the existence, in central Asia, of
high frequencies of haplotype 1C, together with its immediate
ancestor, haplotype 1U.

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quote:

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Originally posted by astenb:
^ Has anyone notice the frequency of B-M60 in the Egyptian samples? Taking the history of what we know about the nile valley into consideration I am surprised that more samples dont mirror this.
28% In Northern Egypt
43% In southern Egypt

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Are you sure is Scozarri?
You are correct as to B-M60 and its occurrence. Keita notes on B-m60 above:


"The samples from Egypt are almost as diverse as those of the Horn. Some samples have high frequencies of the ancient M60 marker (haplotype B), but the plurality of studies show M35 lineages as predominating."


Hassan et al 2008 note as to Copt samples (Copt migrants to the Sudan) an ancient link to Nilotic populations

"The Copt samples displayed a most interesting Y-profile, enough (as much as that of Gaalien in Sudan) to suggest that they actually represent a living record of the peopling of Egypt. The significant frequency of B-M60 in this group might be a relic of a history of colonization of southern Egypt probably by Nilotics in the early state formation, something that conforms both to recorded history and to Egyptian mythology."

and

"Haplogroups A-M13 and B-M60 are present at
high frequencies in Nilo-Saharan groups except Nubians,
with low frequencies in Afro-Asiatic groups although notable
frequencies of B-M60 were found in Hausa (15.6%)
and Copts (15.2%)"


The people clustering closest to the Nubians are the Copt migrants and Gaalien of which Hassan says:
“The Gaalien from central Sudan occupy a trading crossroad that extends back to the ancient Kingdom of Meroe. The Gaalien exhibits a Y-profile that gives insight into past and recent migrations to the Sudan. Interestingly, they still maintain low frequencies of haplogroup A-M13 and E-M78, which suggests older rooting and relates them to other neighboring populations."




- Older research notes the variable physical appearance of the Copts:

"In Libya, which is mostly desert and oasis, there is a visible Negroid element in the sedentary populations, and at the same is true of the Fellahin of Egypt, whether Copt or Muslim. Osteological studies have shown that the Negroid element was stronger in predynastic times than at present, reflecting an early movement northward along the banks of the Nile, which were then heavily forested."
(--Encyclopedia Britannica 1984 ed. "Populations, Human")


Copts have been in the Sudan a fairly long time.
"Linguistcally, the word Copt is derived from the Greek Aigyptos, a corruption of the ancient Egyptian word hakkaptah, or Egyptian. Thus the word Copt originally referred to nationality rather than religion... The Coptic presence in the Sudan dates to the Byzantine era, when monks "of the oases of the western desert and beyond the first cataract in Nubia in Egypt penetrated the Southern region.."
--Wanderings: Sudanese migrants and exiles in North America by Rogaia Mustafa Abusharaf - 2002


As for the older Scorazzi study- a few things:

1) The sampling model is skewed. There are more northern Egyptian samples in the mix over Southern Egyptians but not by much, however they underweigh the majority Oromo in Ethiopia in favor of the more Arabized/mixed Amhara by 30%, even though the Oromo are the majority in Ethiopia. Right off the bat, they are skewing sampling weights..

2) They talk about "sub-Saharans" compared to others, but do not include the Ethiopians in the "sub-saharans" even though Ethiopia itself is "sub-Saharan." You can already see the stacked deck they have created.

3) The do not include PN2 analysis in the study. As Keita notes the PN2 links numerous African populations together, shattering stereotypical boundaries. They carefully skip it. This is significant because they try to separate out East Africans etc from the other "sub-Saharan" Africans using various markers, the Pn2 analysis would undermine this approach so they skip over it.

4) In any event, they did find a link between West Africans (Northern Cameroon) and Egyptians via 1C, and more recent data by Keita supersedes this 1999 study.
 

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Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
 
I am Sure its Scozzari.
Full Text Here


It IS in there i just had to sift throuhg the information to find it. Its a 99 study so they just have a long list of "Superhaplotypes" After reading the full text its not too hard to figure what is what based on their distribution:

quote:

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1C was absent in all sub-Saharan populations,
with the exception of those from central Africa, where
it reached frequencies as high as 95.7% (Ouldeme).

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quote:

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Haplotype 5 (YAP/PN2T/DYS271G) was
shared by populations from western, central, and southern
Africa (at frequencies of 85.3%, 53.8%, and 43.3%,respectively), but it was virtually absent in the rest of the continent.

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This mirrors the E-M2 distribution

quote:

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“Ancestral” haplotype 1A, with an overall
frequency of 6.2%, was shared by Khoisan, Ethiopians
(with frequencies 120%), and a few other populations
from central Africa.

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quote:

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and those from northern and eastern
Africa had the highest frequencies (60.8% and 54.1%,
respectively) of the YAP/PN2T chromosomes (haplotype
4).

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quote:

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PN2 analysis was not included in that
study. We have reported here that the YAP/DYS271A
chromosomes, also carrying the PN2T mutation (haplotype
4), are commonly found in northern and eastern
Africans and in the Khoisan.

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quote:

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Haplotype 1B, with an overall frequency
of 10.1%, was present in all groups but predominated in northern and eastern Africans.

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quote:

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The African-specific groups I and II (Underhill et al. 2000, 2001b), which account for 7% and 6% of the total sample, respectively, are scattered across the continent,

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quote:

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Regarding the group II haplotypes, a clear-cut difference was observed between Pygmies and Khoisan, on one side, and all the other African populations, on the other: the former have mainly group II haplotypes sharing the derived allele at M112 (haplotypes 14–18), whereas in other African populations, group II chromosomes display mainly the M150 mutation (haplotypes 9–12 and 12b). Among these, haplotype 12, which carries the M109 mutation, is the most frequent and was found in several populations from Cameroon. The same haplotype was also previously observed in some eastern Africans and Bantu speakers from southern Africa (Underhill et al. 2000). The new markers M236 and M288 define an old group II clade (haplotypes 19 and 19b), which is restricted to few sub-Saharan subjects.

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quote:

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The Amhara and Oromo from Ethiopia, both of
which speak languages of the Afro-Asiatic linguistic family,
appear to constitute a rather homogeneous group.
Having relatively high frequencies of haplotype 1B, they
are similar to northern Africans, in showing caucasoid
features.

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^ LOL if they only knew..
 

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Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
 
Also this Scozzari et al study and
"Y-chromosome analysis in Egypt suggests a genetic regional continuity in Northeastern Africa."

BOTH found E* in Egypt.
 

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Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
 
Good detective work.
 

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Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
 
^
 

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Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
 
^
 

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Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
 
^
 

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Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
 
Just want to state that Keita noting E3a descending from the nile valley is NOT INCOMPATIBLE to what other geneticists have stated. I am particularly thinking of National Geographic's opinion of the E-M2 migration :



Searching for "Bantu-Migration" ALSO brings up images like this:


Seeing that Nilo-Saharan could be a daughter language of Niger Kordofanian (Or vise versa) and or the Kordofanian hills is the Eastern Most representation of the language family it makes a LOT OF SENSE that ALL Africans languages families (except for Khio) expended from this General Area.
Sudan is the Homeland of nilo-Saharan, and one author, (Lionel Bender? sure dont have my notes) lists the Sudanese desert as the a possible launching point for A.A or Proto A.A.

This also fits right in with Obenga's "Negro-Egyptian" language groups.




African scholars have been saying this for HOW LONG NOW? people take note.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Understanding the Bantu migration will explain a lot about the peoples of Africa. Since I learned about the Bantu migration when I joined this forum.

What is it??? Some experts have the Migration starting about 3kya. The coincides with the beginning of the invasion of foriegners in North East Africa. E3a and E3b are siblings both started in East Africa.

What is exactly was the stimilus for the migration?
 

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Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
 
Interesting that keita does not think egypt was a black African society.
 

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Posted by Doctoris Scientia (Member # 17454) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Hammer:
Interesting that keita does not think egypt was a black African society.

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
Understanding the Bantu migration will explain a lot about the peoples of Africa. Since I learned about the Bantu migration when I joined this forum.

What is it??? Some experts have the Migration starting about 3kya. The coincides with the beginning of the invasion of foriegners in North East Africa. E3a and E3b are siblings both started in East Africa.

What is exactly was the stimilus for the migration?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hammer:
No he does not. I recently watched a clip on the internet of Keita and he said Egypt was a mixed society. He has been widely miswuoted by afroloons.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doctoris Scientia:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hammer:
[qb] No he does not.


I love it how you went from a Caucasian to Mixed race society, LOL.

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Indeed, a clear sign of dishonesty if not ignorance is inconsistency. We have always maintained a consistent argument. Yet Hammered goes from disregarding Keita as an Afrocentric fraud to now citing him. He claimed that ancient Egyptians were "North African caucasians" to now them being "mixed". Yet it is HE and 'the toothless lion' that are mixed up in their minds.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Despite how so many have desperately tried to distort his words, Keita is quite clear. You cannot separate African populations into Sub-Saharan and North African for the latter is merely a continuation of the former. The Sahara did not always exist as North Africa was once green and fertile and even when it did dry up, there really was no absolute barrier to prevent migrations with all the oases, aquafers, and definitely with the Nile River itself.
 

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Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
 
^^
 

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Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
 
^
 

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Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
 
^
 

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Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
 
^
 

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Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
 
^
 

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Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
^
 

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