It is one of those words in the Mtau Ntr which have been given its own "special" meaning, outside of any correspondence with the Egyptian language. It keeps company with the non-sensical interpretation of the word "Kemet=the Black Land" but with a wider latitude of chicanery possible:
- Budge transliterates 'Kemet' into 'Egypt' and 'Nahasu' into Negroes (Blacks if he were writing today)
- This has become a canon of Western Egyptology
- There are books in the Public Library on Egyptian poetry which even translates this word into "Niggers" - and embellishes it with hand-maiden, servant - which ironically is close to its original meaning but without the racial pejorative.(now come on, there's three or four at best, books of Ancient Egyptian poetry at the library - seek and ye shall find.)
- Then there is; Nahas in Arabic means "copper"; there is a copper region in Sudan, and since any non-African source trumps an African source; we then perform a European "Nisbe" - Nubian means "Gold" and Nahas (in Arabic) means "Copper" and both of these groups reside in a Black region, ergo, both Nubian and Nahas mean "Negro" - a simple, racist, and inaccurate conclusion!
"Nahas", is in fact, the only instance in Egyptology were a racial group is specified (Kememou are just "Egyptians");
The Aamu, the most castigated group in the Mtau Ntr, who were rediculed from "an amazing grace to a floatin' opportunity" - are described simply as Asiatic.
The Namu-Sho are just "Desert Nomads"
The Tamhu - (the Red ones) are just, well "Tamhu"...
The following is my own interpretation of the precise meaning of the term Nahas(i, ou, w):
Wolof Diop informs us that there is a term in Wolof "Nahas" which means useless, worthless...This gives us a helpful hint as we consult the original Mtau Ntr:
...and this was a name of a 13th Dynasty Pharaoh
Note that his Nsu Biti title contains the determinative for "Barbarian" - his SaRe title merely lists him as "Nahasi" - which I interpret as "The Barbarian" - a synonym in Mtau Ntr for "Peasant, supplicant, worthless ..."
The Greeks would later borrow this ideological terminolgy: Barbarian, for any people who were not Greeks...
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
I'm aware of this insanity -- check out the "slave woman; negress" devoid of the glyph for slave or black.
Yet Km.t Rm.tyw = "egyptians" lol. I kind of wonder if it was because he realized how nonsensical "black land people" will sound.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:
...and this was a name of a 13th Dynasty Pharaoh
Note that his Nsu Biti title contains the determinative for "Barbarian" - his SaRe title merely lists him as "Nahasi" - which I interpret as "The Barbarian" - a synonym in Mtau Ntr for "Peasant, supplicant, worthless ..."
The Greeks would later borrow this ideological terminolgy: Barbarian, for any people who were not Greeks...
This translation sounds fishy to me; for one, what king in his right mind will allow himself to be called anything that is synonymous with "worthless", unless this was a "commemorative" title bestowed upon him by a successor who despised him, LOL?
Anyway, as for "Nhsw", going retro, here is a "Nile Valley Forum" recap of an ES discussion: Nhsw Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
...This translation sounds fishy to me; for one, what king in his right mind will allow himself to be called anything that is synonymous with "worthless", unless this was a "commemorative" title bestowed upon him by a successor who despised him, LOL?
Anyway, as for "Nhsw", going retro, here is a "Nile Valley Forum" recap of an ES discussion...
This guy, sitting at his computer, looking at the image before him, thinks that somethings fishy!?! A guy who has certainly never heard of Ivan the Terrible (Russia), surely not of AEtheired the Unready (England), of William the Bastard (England)...or maybe he just wants to go fishing...
But I Thank him for reminding me of something I posted back in 2005: (We didn't have the advantage back then of being able to show the actual hieroglyphs from Budge's dictionary...)
Nhsj (Nahasi)- a Sudanese man Nhsj.t (Nahasit) - a Sudanese woman Nhsjw (Nahasou)- Sudanese; southerners in general Nhsjw (Nahasou)- The Sudanese tribes in the Tuat, the results of the masturbation of Ra.
The way it's written
Most words in the Mdw Ntr that began with the letter "n" were written with the hieroglyph of a water ripple; the word "Nhsjw" was written using the 'Guinea-fowl' glyph with the pronunciation being "Nh;Neh;Nah" - very few words began with this 'letter.'
verifying rasol's correct analysis
In Budge's dictionary, alongside the word "Nehsi" there are additional hieroglyphics showing the different ways of writing the "Nehsi" in the plural. What interests us here is the following example: Hieroglyphic: (throw stick)+ s + (sedge plant) + "ou"
--The "throw stick" can be either a determinative; an ideogram; or a phonogram "rs" or "Aa"; at the beginning of a sentence it's a phonogram (and probably also an ideogram which indicates "foreign".)
--The "sedge" hieroglyph ("(n)su; sut") indicates the south; ie;Upper Egypt, Sudan... So we have "rs"+ "s" + "su" or "Resou" which means "southerners" with the use of the "throw stick" to indicate "foreign southerners"; the same as it is used in the word "Aamu" to indicate "(foreigners)Asiatics"...
:essentially all non-Egyptian peoples in the south; "strangers" ...................... There's one Pharaoh that I came across while reading "Egyptian Language: Easy Lessons in Egyptian Hieroglyphics by EWB". If I recall correctly, the example text was from the "Stelae of Pa-Nahesi" (25th Dynasty?). I personally think that the title "Pa Nahasi" was a self-deprecating play on words that would imply something like the Pharaoh calling himself "The Barbarian!" or "The Stranger!" - literally it means "The Sudani man". (not "The Nubian") --Do you think that people will ever grasp the concept that there's a difference between Sudan/Sudanese and Nubia/Nubian. Will they ever come to realize that the Nubians are Egyptians?
Brainwashing is deep isn't it?
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
Most words in the Mdw Ntr that began with the letter "n" were written with the hieroglyph of a water ripple; the word "Nhsjw" was written using the 'Guinea-fowl' glyph with the pronunciation being "Nh;Neh;Nah" - very few words began with this 'letter.' -- Wally
^The above is good to know for me, as i've made sure to note that word(s) with good connotations start with that beginning (not to say that this has any meaning as far as Nhhsw goes).
I'll post up when i can..
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wally:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
...This translation sounds fishy to me; for one, what king in his right mind will allow himself to be called anything that is synonymous with "worthless", unless this was a "commemorative" title bestowed upon him by a successor who despised him, LOL?
Anyway, as for "Nhsw", going retro, here is a "Nile Valley Forum" recap of an ES discussion...
This guy, sitting at his computer, looking at the image before him
Certainly house-bringing and maturity are not one of your traits, but I hope you are at least capable enough to tell the difference between the act of "seeing clusters of hieroglyphs" in front of one and the act of "translating" these clusters. [Hint: The former doesn't automatically render the latter either "done", or "correct"]
quote: thinks that somethings fishy!?!
I don't believe I stuttered when I said just that. Needlessly repeating after me like a parrot, suggests you are grappling with comprehension; so I ask: What part of it, did you not get?
quote: A guy who has certainly never heard of Ivan the Terrible (Russia), surely not of AEtheired the Unready (England), of William the Bastard (England)...or maybe he just wants to go fishing...
Well kid, I'm not sure what relevance any of these characters have here, but if they can do what you are not doing right now, which is to answer this...
For one, what king in his right mind will allow himself to be called anything that is synonymous with "worthless", unless this was a "commemorative" title bestowed upon him by a successor who despised him, LOL?
...,then I say by all means, do cite their answers to this question.
quote:
But I Thank him for reminding me of something I posted back in 2005: (We didn't have the advantage back then of being able to show the actual hieroglyphs from Budge's dictionary...)
Nhsj (Nahasi)- a Sudanese man Nhsj.t (Nahasit) - a Sudanese woman Nhsjw (Nahasou)- Sudanese; southerners in general Nhsjw (Nahasou)- The Sudanese tribes in the Tuat, the results of the masturbation of Ra.
The way it's written
Most words in the Mdw Ntr that began with the letter "n" were written with the hieroglyph of a water ripple; the word "Nhsjw" was written using the 'Guinea-fowl' glyph with the pronunciation being "Nh;Neh;Nah" - very few words began with this 'letter.'
verifying rasol's correct analysis
In Budge's dictionary, alongside the word "Nehsi" there are additional hieroglyphics showing the different ways of writing the "Nehsi" in the plural. What interests us here is the following example: Hieroglyphic: (throw stick)+ s + (sedge plant) + "ou"
--The "throw stick" can be either a determinative; an ideogram; or a phonogram "rs" or "Aa"; at the beginning of a sentence it's a phonogram (and probably also an ideogram which indicates "foreign".)
--The "sedge" hieroglyph ("(n)su; sut") indicates the south; ie;Upper Egypt, Sudan... So we have "rs"+ "s" + "su" or "Resou" which means "southerners" with the use of the "throw stick" to indicate "foreign southerners"; the same as it is used in the word "Aamu" to indicate "(foreigners)Asiatics"...
:essentially all non-Egyptian peoples in the south; "strangers" ...................... There's one Pharaoh that I came across while reading "Egyptian Language: Easy Lessons in Egyptian Hieroglyphics by EWB". If I recall correctly, the example text was from the "Stelae of Pa-Nahesi" (25th Dynasty?). I personally think that the title "Pa Nahasi" was a self-deprecating play on words that would imply something like the Pharaoh calling himself "The Barbarian!" or "The Stranger!" - literally it means "The Sudani man". (not "The Nubian") --Do you think that people will ever grasp the concept that there's a difference between Sudan/Sudanese and Nubia/Nubian. Will they ever come to realize that the Nubians are Egyptians?
Brainwashing is deep isn't it?
While we are at your thanking me for jogging your memory, I think a thank you is also in order, for reinforcing the fact that "your" translation of the term is far from being proven or established to be correct; in fact, as this older post shows, as your topic-opener does as well, your translation "citations" are at odds with your "own" personal one, for which you don't seem to have an answer, when you are asked simple questions.
And oh, if you are going to reply like a kid again, without addressing the question, then my suggestion is: don't bother. Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:
...and this was a name of a 13th Dynasty Pharaoh
Note that his Nsu Biti title contains the determinative for "Barbarian" - his SaRe title merely lists him as "Nahasi" - which I interpret as "The Barbarian" - a synonym in Mtau Ntr for "Peasant, supplicant, worthless ..."
Furthermore, it is simplistic to take "Nehesw" as "stranger", for if that were the case, there would be no need for a determinative/ideogram suggestive of "foreigner" in say, the first cartouche. That determinative is there, precisely to modify the meaning of the noun in question.
And like I said some time ago, one of the reasons for posting a link to the older discussion, "Nehesw" seemed particularly reserved for groups from beyond Kemet's southern border; it wasn't applied to those in their east, north or west, as far as I recall. Thus Nehesw has got to be more than a synonym for "stranger", or its Greek equivalent of "barbarian" which is not reserved for any one group or territory, as the former appears to be.
As for the equation of the term with "worthlessness", well, a question had already been posed on that, awaiting a grown-up answer that is a 'sequitur'...
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox:
...^The above is good to know for me, as i've made sure to note that word(s) with good connotations start with that beginning (not to say that this has any meaning as far as Nhhsw goes)...
...it does... Neh; and most of the few words in the Mtau Ntr which uses it at the beginning of a sentence
neh - to ask, petition, request, pray for, beseech, supplicate nehi - peasant, suppliant neheh - to beseech neh.t - supplication, request, entreaty, prayer, invocation; nehti - petition nahti - faith, belief Neh - the Guinea fowl; Nehwer - the great Neh neh - oil, unguent Neh - the name of a god Nehit - the mother of the gods in the boat of Re eneh - eternity, forever Eneh - god of eternity nahbe - neck nouheb - to yoke cattle or horses, to conquer or be entrusted with something nouhebka - to yoke the ka noheb; nahb - plough ox nehb.t - name of a ceremonial sceptre nehpi - potter, modeller Nahasi - he of the Sudan, a Sudani Nahasit - title of the Sudani Hathor and a few (c3, 4) other words meaning to be restless, rouse onself, put on clothes...
Now let us look, again, at our principal word...
Nahasi - examining its meaning...
Now, note the presence of the ideograms "Su" and "foreign" within the name...
South, Sudan
Foreign
This establishes the "Nahasu" as a) Sudanese, the land from whence came the institution of kingship of the Pharaohs and b) they were distinguished as foreign, non-national peoples.
Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
Hope you are doing better with this than you did with Kemet. More Wallyisms.
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
And we hope you're doing better with this than did you with Kemet. More Wally schooling indeed.
Wally wrote
quote:.
Well, while from Budge's A. E. Hieroglyphic Dictionary Vol. II in my notes i jotted down the glyphs for 3 words with a similar beginning. Naqi and Nasht have at least the 'n' and 'a' bird for the "glottal" Arabic like 'a' stop (the '3'), and correspond to 'exalted/great' and 'strength', respectively, while Nahsha is complete with the strong sounding 'h' uniliteral and means "seed or grain used in medicine".
And .. I didn't notice this when i jotted this down years ago, being ignorant about the basics of heiroglyphs, but in Budges two examples of "Nahsu", "the Blacks of the Sudan", the second is written entirely in uniliterals with a single biliteral while the first is written both the determinative for foreigner and for enemy -- which implies that my past use of N3hsu was incorrect.
From these writings it would appear to me that Nahsu were Southerners not seen as part of Km.t nwt. Then again maybe Nahsw were.
From at least one tomb we do know that Southerners as well as Western desert groups were part of Km.t nwt at at least one point in time.
Also, i've read that at times even some rm.tyw were enemies of km.t - so maybe i'm answering my own questions (looking back on these old notes i almost couldn't find has my mind flowing).
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
We'll never really know what nHs means because it's a solo root. It goes back to the Old Kingdom where it was spelled as well as with the guinea fowl multi-literal phonogram accompanied by the twisted cord as a silent phonetic complement. So the guinea fowl glyph isn't a single alphabetic character phonogram only to replace the wavy line glyph for 'n.'
One other AEL word hash the root nHs. It bears the meaning of 'sting' as in an insect bite. But this word appears in the New Kingdom vocabulary.
[The Hebrews wrote of Kesh as "the land buzzing with wings" in reference to the prominence of flying insects there. This is no proof that the folk south of Elephantine were associated with bug bites. ]
In the past I took 'southerner' as the meaning for nHs because practically all the people known to be nHsw resided south of taShemaw (Upper Egypt). Though this is the actual sense of the word it's not its meaning. It's just a good interpretation but no AEL word for south has nHs in it.
Posted by The Apprentice (Member # 15917) on :
^ of course of course! Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
Just to claify
quote:the 'n' and 'a' bird
Didn't mean to imply Budge had any "'n' and 'a' bird" -glyph, err, at least from my notes he had the n moniliteral (the wavy line glyph) followed by the a moniliteral "guinea bird" as Wally calls it.
Me and my wordings..
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
The guinea fowl isn't a monoliteral. It's the biliteral nH. The guinea fowl replaces wavy line (n) + twisted cord (H) as one complete biliteral syllable.
When 'wavy line' (n) precedes 'guinea fowl' (nH) it's only there as a silent complement of the initial (n) letter sound of 'guinea fowl' (nH).
When 'twisted cord' (H) follows 'guinea fowl' (nH) it's there only as a silent complement of the terminal (H) letter sound of 'guinea fowl' (nH).
In writing, silent complements are a cue so the accompanying pictogram isn't mistaken as the depicted object itself, just its sound.
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: Just to claify
quote:the 'n' and 'a' bird
Didn't mean to imply Budge had any "'n' and 'a' bird" -glyph, err, at least from my notes he had the n moniliteral (the wavy line glyph) followed by the a moniliteral "guinea bird" as Wally calls it.
Me and my wordings..
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
Thanks, i should have caught that especially having just followed Wally's posted illustratrions
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: check out the "slave woman; negress" word devoid of glyphs for slave or black.
On second thought I wonder what could give the connotation of slave or servant there.
The 'Y' glyph - the double knives centered in each of the particular words - according to a reference of mine are a monoliteral, but this is the same reference that says the guinea fowl glyph is an 'a' monoliteral.
That said they are familiar to me in the form of "complete works" and "kemetian books" but are also found in "great, exalted (ones?)" (naqi) and are absent from "property of".
quote:Most words in the Mdw Ntr that began with the letter "n" were written with the hieroglyph of a water ripple; the word "Nhsjw" was written using the 'Guinea-fowl' glyph with the pronunciation being "Nh;Neh;Nah" - very few words began with this 'letter.'
- Wally
Interestingly enough Budge has down this word beginning with the glyphs for Kem followed by another 'm' (another owl), followed by the knife and spiral glyphs, capped off with the 'nwt' pictogram determinative for village/city. When paired with thw nH term - 'n' wavy line and 'nH' fowl glyphs - it means "Egyptians".
Also, perhaps this is the wrong thread but i chuckle wondering what Budge may have pondered considering that the word "Km" = "to behave correctly" when written with only the glyphs for "black" plus the determinative of a man sitting upright. It's written as follows: "Km" + the glyph of a man kneeling with his hand up near his face as if he could be thinking, speaking or eating.
Wow:
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: From these writings it would appear to me that Nahsu were Southerners not seen as part of Km.t nwt. Then again maybe Nahsw were.
Correction
From these writings it would appear to me that Nahsu [might have stood for only the Southerners that] were not seen as part of Km.t-nw. Then again maybe [some] "Nhsw" were [part of Kmt nwt at the same time].
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
Gentlemen, please, let us not complicate something which is plain, simple, and right before our very eyes. But you know what, I don't think the problem here is wrestling with the Mtau Nter (note my constant refinement of 'Mdu Ntr'... ) so much as wrestling with the English language!
Take the word that is shown in our examples: Nahasu Thaiu
-Thaiu (with the male penis determinative) means 'men & women, virile men...' and survives in Coptic as "Djo" - the "Th", is actually a 't', and is a (Budge) way to distinguish one form of 't' from another...
Thus, the literal translation of "Nahasu Taiu" is, in English, "Sudanese men and women" - (literal: limited to the explicit meaning of a word)
Budge's translation of the word as "Negro slaves" is obviously incorrect, of course... - (Translation: the interpretation of the meaning of a word)
Budge's translation of "Nahasu", however, as "Suteni" is precise. I personally cannot recall seeing a word in the Mtau Nter which contained the "su.t" ideogram which did not mean something that was associated with the south or with the Sudan...
The word 'slave' in the Mtau Nter woui.t - group of serfs, slaves, soldiers ... ebata - slave, servant eirou - working men, slaves, servants, doers, those who make aobt - slave, worker bak - manservant, slave, workman, laborer... merou - servants, serfs, vassals, peasants, hereditary servants... ndjit - female slave hem - slave
Wrestling with English
The literal meaning of the word "Nahas" in English is "Sudan" and is a synonym of "Suten", but it is also a synonym for other words as well...
Here's what I'm talking about:
a) take the English word "vandalism" - a word that derives from the Vandals, the ancient east Germanic tribe that sacked Rome; they also overran Gaul, Spain, and North Africa (principally northern Tunisia and northeastern Algeria.) Many speculate that the literal translation of Vandal is "Wander", slightly different than its derived meaning, ie "to trash"...
b) now take the word "vulgar" which means "common" and when one is accused of being vulgar, it is a class label, which contrasts with the upper or elite class: The Anglo-Saxons, and their language, were regarded as vulgar, and thus such Anglo-Saxon terms as f**k, sh*t, f*rt are words of the lower class. Whereas, the Upper Class/elites spoke more "elegantly", using more Latinized words such as copulate, defecate, or "pass gas"... (This Anglo-Saxon monosyllabic simplification of words is still with us today; people you know who are named "Barbara" are invariably called "Barb", "William" becomes "Bill" and so on...)
Some words, therefore, are given an ideological meaning, especially when they are interpreted by other languages. Thus, you have:
1) Ekush = "border, frontier" in Mtau Nter becomes "kush" = "Negro" in Hebrew 2) Su = "sedge plant" in Mtau Nter becomes "sud" = "Black" in Arabic (sud, s-sud, aswad...) 3) Nahasu = "sutenu" in Mtau Nter becomes "Nahasu" = "Negro" in White Western Egyptology 4) Noubi = "gold worker" in Mtau Nter becomes "Nubian" = "Black" in African-American usage
.....
The way that you literally say "Black" or "Negro" in Mtau Nter is Kememou; Kemou.t; Keme.t (nu.t)... The literal translation of the Mtau Nter word "Nahasu", in English, is "Sudanese" - who formed part of the Keme.t Niut, but who were also non-Egyptian nationals -foreigners... Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
This is why t3wy (the Two Lands) is a controversial term. Which two lands? t3.shmaw (UE) & t3.mehh (LE) or t3.mri (the Beloved Land) & ksh.x3st (Kush)? And then, according to who, the RT.RMT or the NHHS.W? And when?
NOTE: would've used t3.nhhsy above except no reliable translation for nhhsy as I'm wary of using southerner now as the literal translation.
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox:
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: From these writings it would appear to me that Nahsu were Southerners not seen as part of Km.t nwt. Then again maybe Nahsw were.
Correction
From these writings it would appear to me that Nahsu [might have stood for only the Southerners that] were not seen as part of Km.t-nw. Then again maybe [some] "Nhsw" were [part of Kmt nwt at the same time].
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote: alTakruri wrote: ... would've used t3.nhhsy above except no reliable translation for nhhsy as I'm wary of using southerner now as the literal translation...
Whaaaat????
The literal translation of Nahasu is Sudanese, and the way in which at some occasions it is written to include the ideogram "Su" indicates that the Sudanese were peoples who lived in the south. Nahasu literally does not mean south or southerner!
south, southerner
These are relative terms; if you lived in Chicago, then even someone living in Gary, Indiana a few miles away is south of you and therefore a southerner to you
- the same would be true of someone living in Tupelo, Mississippi
- or in Mexico City, Mexico
and you understand that Mexico is not politically a part of the USA.
By the same token; if you lived in the Egyptian marshlands of the north, those who lived in middle or Upper Egypt were to the south of you, and therefore southerners (resu).
- the same would be true of the Wawat or the Yam folks
and you understand that the Wawat or the Yam were not a part of Kême, sometimes vassal states perhaps, but that was all...
and you also understand that the determinative "Nu.t" was one that also contained a 'progression' of meaning:
Nu/Niu - village, town, community/metropolis, nation, nations
--that the Wawat were members of the Black nations, but NOT members of the Black nation...
The literal translation of "Nahasu", in English, is "Sudanese" - a conglomeration of peoples who were non-Egyptian nationals; foreign Blacks who lived to the south of Kême's borders.
...Understand???
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
quote:By the same token; if you lived in the Egyptian marshlands of the north, those who lived in middle or Upper Egypt were to the south of you, and therefore southerners (resu).
This is how i'd use the English translation of Southerners.
quote:According to the Book of Gates, the Gate of Teka Hra vignette 30, KM.t:nwt is composed of rt.RMT and NHHS.w.
Oh yeah, i forgot about that.
The fact that it bluntly read "Nehesu".
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Please provide an example that justifies taking the last letter of nHs -- 's' -- along with what is only a suffix denoting plurality -- 'w' -- to arrive abruptly at a word -- 'su' -- that isn't a plural.
We don't know the precise literal translation for nHs because it's an unused root in Egyptic with no other word in the vocabulary associated with it other than the NK usage -- sting.
rsu is not nHs.w
Medjay lived southeast of AE's southern border. Tjemehu lived southeast of AE's southern border. Yet, Medjay were classed nHs.w but Tjemehu weren't. pWN.t was south of Egypt and was part of t3.NH(+H)s.y{X3ST} and Punt most certainly isn't Sudan.
As for the delta marshland, Upper Egypt was south of it but I nowhere find residents of t3.shm`w ever labeled nHs.w Perhaps you can show us an instance that fits your Tupelo and Mexico analogies?
The AEs knew of no entity Sudan. So what is your position now? Sudan or worthless or negro or???
We all very well understand the nHs.w were south of Egypt. That's why in the past I translated it southerner basing myself on BG 4:5 vg30 where the order of non-Egyptians follows the sun's path. It was a useful translation for meaning but it's not literally what nHs means.
I'm beginning to think nHs is a root from a non-AEL.
quote:Originally posted by Wally: The literal translation of Nahasu is Sudanese, and the way in which at some occasions it is written to include the ideogram "Su" indicates that the Sudanese were peoples who lived in the south. Nahasu literally does not mean south or southerner!
south, southerner
These are relative terms; if you lived in Chicago, then even someone living in Gary, Indiana a few miles away is south of you and therefore a southerner to you
- the same would be true of someone living in Tupelo, Mississippi
- or in Mexico City, Mexico
and you understand that Mexico is not politically a part of the USA.
By the same token; if you lived in the Egyptian marshlands of the north, those who lived in middle or Upper Egypt were to the south of you, and therefore southerners (resu).
. . . .
The literal translation of "Nahasu", in English, is "Sudanese" - a conglomeration of peoples who were non-Egyptian nationals; foreign Blacks who lived to the south of Kême's borders.
...Understand???
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
alTakruri,
My God, I'm over here discussing apples and you're out somewhere discussing grapes! I am almost certain that most people reading my post understood exactly what I was saying, but it is clear that you most certainly didn't!
quote: Please provide an example that justifies taking the last letter of nHs -- 's' -- along with what is only a suffix denoting plurality -- 'w' -- to arrive abruptly at a word -- 'su' -- that isn't a plural.
--what acrobatics got you to this misunderstanding? The word, I imagine, that is in question is the one that is written N.s.s.j.w - the second "s" is an "s" but it is written using the "s" from the sedge plant; this is the scribe telling us that we're talking about a southern people; he could have used the other forms of "s" but... - the "w", the ubiquitous quail chick is the plural "ou" or "u" - the word is "Nahas.ou"
quote: We don't know the precise literal translation for nHs because it's an unused root in Egyptic with no other word in the vocabulary associated with it other than the NK usage -- sting.
No, you don't know the literal translation of the word, but Budge does, Erman does, I does...
quote: rsu is not nHs.w
How did you get here??? Your confusion is confusing the hell out of me, for sure.
Now, res = south resu = southerners Nahasu = Suteni (you know, Sudanese) The Nahasu therefore, are also resu...
quote: Medjay lived southeast of AE's southern border. Tjemehu lived southeast of AE's southern border. Yet, Medjay were classed nHs.w but Tjemehu weren't. pWN.t was south of Egypt and was part of t3.NH(+H)s.y{X3ST} and Punt most certainly isn't Sudan.
...meeting you as you arrive from circling the barn; Pwoni.t was most certainly a part of the Sudan; I don't recall whether it was Budge or Breasted who informed us that Punt and Nubia were always associated, connected & also Sudanese in the exact same manner that ancient Mali, Songhai, Ghana, etc., were Sudanese civilizations...
quote: As for the delta marshland, Upper Egypt was south of it but I nowhere find residents of t3.shm`w ever labeled nHs.w Perhaps you can show us an instance that fits your Tupelo and Mexico analogies?
If you didn't get it the first time, I doubt that any re-explaining would do any good, especially since you insist on distorting things...but, what the hey!...
Ta Shemou = land.south.peoples and referred to Egyptian nationals residing in the Nile Valley proper.
Nahasu = Suten.peoples and referred to non-nationals living on the nation's southern borders...
An American knows that someone who lives in Tupelo, Mississippi is living in America, probably an American, and that someone living in Mexico City, Mexico is probably Mexican... ...and I'm not going to try anymore to simplify something that is already simple to understand...
quote: The AEs knew of no entity Sudan. So what is your position now? Sudan or worthless or negro or???
Whether you choose to accept it or not, the very name Sudan derives from "Suten" It was part of their language and of course, a part of their geographical knowledge - and your insistence of reducing a word to an absolute is both astounding as well as frustrating in a conversation:
Sudan/Suten - 'those who are of the Sedge plant - country' , "those who are of the King's country", foreigners; thus barbarians and worthless, King, King of the South,...
quote: We all very well understand the nHs.w were south of Egypt. That's why in the past I translated it southerner basing myself on BG 4:5 vg30 where the order of non-Egyptians follows the sun's path. It was a useful translation for meaning but it's not literally what nHs means. I'm beginning to think nHs is a root from a non-AEL.
The root of the word is "Neh" or "Nah" which is the name of an Egyptian bird, which I call "Guinea fowl", which I recall I got from Gardiner in his book on "Middle Egyptian"
The strongest use of this word is: "eNeh" for eternity, forever and ever...
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
You can skip the cutsie colloquialisms. They only make you less credible than already. I understood you very well, well enough to disagree with you, and I stand firm in that.
We're not talking fruits here so wise up. What you clearly don't understand is that this discussion is a about a word nHs. We know the people that word applied to lived south of Egypt. That fact is not enough to make the word mean south.
To embroider your analogy, people from Mississippi are southerners and people in Mexico reside south of the USA but neither the word Mississippi nor Mexico mean south.
Your argument hangs on some other word. This word is a word which in no way contains nHs.w or sounds like nHs.w. You may be able to fool those who can't read hieroglyphics that this word is nHs.w but you can't fool yourself and I can't guess why you'd want to deceive others.
The throwstick glyph is neither the sound nH which is the first syllable of the root nHs. Nor does the throwstick stand for the letter 'n' as you intentionally misrepresent.
This word indeed means southerners and Budge included it in his Nehhsi list trusting readers to see his P.S.B.A. 19, 262 reference for further understanding.
We also clearly understand this word is not N.s.s.j.w examined glyph by glyph: throwstick - (beligerent?) foreigner logogram; unpronounced determinative folded cloth - uniliteral 's;' unpronounced phonetic complement bullrush - biliteral 'sw,' south (king) feather - uniliteral 'y,' possessive chick - uniliteral 'w,' plural seated man - people logogram; unpronounced determinative strokes - plural logogram; unpronounced determinative
is simply SU.y.w in pronunciation. In Budge's context it means 'ones of the south'
NOTE: nH [guinea fowl glyph] is not the root of nHS. nHs is a root. nH is its first syllable. s its second syllable.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
You know full well you wrote Sudan, meaning the area of what's now the nation state Sudan. You didn't mean the Sudan, i.e., the entire swath of the African continent known as the greater Sahel.
Punt was not in Sudan. Apparently it was Eritrea. Now, go ahead and make Sudanis out of Eritreans.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ Actually I agree with Wally that what was known as Punt could have been in part, in what is now Sudan, as is suggested in Oxford History of Egypt, amongst other places.
Furthermore, modern attempts to classify flora and fauna suggests that Punt may have been located in the southern Sudan or the Eritrean region of Ethiopia.
You must mean NNE Sudan. Everywhere else in Sudan is landlocked. Do you have a page number from the Oxford History to back up your bolded sentence?
Anyway, Wally on Punt's location:
quote: The Land of Punt (Cradle of the Egyptian race)
The "country" of Punt was actually a region, the same region that the Ancient Egyptians referred to as "Ta Nter" or "God's Land," or quite simply the "country" of Eastern Africa, reaching as far south as Mozambique. There are Ancient Egyptian reports of their obtaining antimony in Punt, which was not produced in the Horn of Africa, but in Mozambique. (It may be noted also that "Pwani" is a Swahili word meaning "the seaside").
The Somali coast was merely a "stepping-off" point for any journey into the African interior. The products of Punt were the products of this entire East African region which, in part, explains their diversity. There exists today, however, the region of Puntland, in modern Somalia.
Pwonit;P_ounit This word in the Mdu Ntr means "the country of the first existence" and is merely a complimentary expression for "God's Land", or the original home of the gods (ie, the ancestors).
This region was also associated with the "Nubia" of the contemporary usage:
quote: -after inspecting the results of her (Hatshepsut) expedition, the queen immediately presented a portion of them to Amon, together with the impost of Nubia, with which Punt was always classed. J.H. Breasted, A History Of Egypt, Part 1, pp274-277
To the Ancient Egyptians this region;"country of the first existence"; "country of our ancestors", etc) was East Africa, or quite simply, Africa. "Ta Nter," "Punt," "Iau" are all synonyms for the same neighborhood. It wasn't a nation...
the first letter of the sign you referrence absolutely does have a phonetic value and that value is "k" . thus "k.s.s.j. w" or in English, Kassou - which Budge clearly indicates by his inclusion under the main word "Nahasu" as being a synonym - by the way "Kas" is the same as "Kash"; "Kush", "Ekush"....and in the dictionary; p 790;
kash a product of Punt, the pearl oyster (?)
Kashi - Nubian, a Sudani man; Coptic: ekoosh, ethoshi
Kashit - Nubian woman; Coptic: ekooshe, ethoshi
You can ride them horses around in a circle for as long as you like but the reality remains - reality: Kassou, Kashou, Kushou, Ekushou, Ethoshou, Nahasou are all synonyms...
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
And you write wishy washy. Which is it Wally? Is it n.s.s.j.w as you originally stated or is it k.s.s.j.w as you now pedal? If the latter then why did you post the former? And do you really expect anyone even slightly familiar with mdw ntr to believe the throwstick at the beginning of a geo-ethnic descriptor is the pronounceable letter k? Tell that to all the scribes who prefixed the ancient Libyans name with it.
You have no idea of the actual word meaning. That's why you shift goalposts bringing up synonyms instead of detailing the one word which is the subject of your thread, Nahasou.
But I can understand your incoherency since you've been dragged on the ground by horses or is it the merry-go-round that's got you dizzy.
Oh, do you think you can write a little more academically? I find these ad homonem sophmoric and tire of returning in kind. If you persist in using them I'll take it as a sign you have no sober discussion and will ignore the entire post containing them (of course you'd like that as it'd eliminate opposition to your ideaology).
Now if you can't behave as you would discussing things in class on campus then what you have to say is quite trite, simple, and below notice.
Discuss the topic, I don't need your opinion of me.
The word remains exactly as I broke it down. examined glyph by glyph: throwstick - (beligerent?) foreigner logogram; unpronounced determinative folded cloth - uniliteral 's;' unpronounced phonetic complement bullrush - biliteral 'sw,' south (king) feather - uniliteral 'y,' possessive chick - uniliteral 'w,' plural seated man - people logogram; unpronounced determinative strokes - plural logogram; unpronounced determinative
is simply SU.y.w in pronunciation. In Budge's context it means 'ones of the south.'
quote:Originally posted by Wally: The word, I imagine, that is in question is the one that is written N.s.s.j.w -
quote:Originally posted by Wally: the first letter of the sign you referrence absolutely does have a phonetic value and that value is "k" . thus "k.s.s.j. w" or in English, Kassou
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Let's see what Budge actually says about the throwstick: E.A.W. Budge Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary A List of Hieroglyphic Characters London: 1920, p. cxxxvii
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
I guess that I don't take myself so seriously as you take yourself. Unraveling these long buried facts are just plain fun to me and I only take what I find that is serious....You need to lighten up a bit - one can be professorial and still possess a sense of humour and actually exhibit it. I really got a kick out of the humerous 'smiley' posts by Djehuti in his rebuttles to the looneys on board...
But...here's Budge's take on the phonetic use of the 'boomerang, what he really had to say:
Now, Allen in his Middle Egyptian dictionary, while listing all determinatives and ideograms of this glyph, points out that also it has a phonetic value in such words as Owt/Awt for 'Flocks'
These phonetic differences, if that's really what they are, are similar in nature to the use of the 'mouth' glyph - "r" in Sahidic and "l" in Boharic for the same word...
--flock in Amharic is ajäb --to find in Amharic is agänyä
Perhaps the Owt was placed in that listing because perhaps the scribe was describing a flock/herd of cattle and this word would be "kau.t"...
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
I have to agree with Explorer in that this is more than just 'fishy'. It's funny how all of the examples Wally gives of rulers having demeaning names or titles come from Medieval Europe. medieval Europe and ancient Africa are two entirely different regions, times, and cultures.
We know that in African culture even today, but certainly in the past, names are considered sacred and spiritual aspects of a person. Even a commoner would not have name that is negative or demeaning to oneself let a lone a god-king!!
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Why don't you take your lonely uneducated ass back to the other forum and not ruin this one like you have the other one.
This thread has people on both sides trying to be scholarly and intellectual and here you are trying to ruin it. What are you going to do, bring your racist buddies on this forum so you can childishly go back and forth over nothing.
You've reduced the other forum to a nuthouse that no one pays attention to anything that is written there because of you and your missionary "save the negroes" friends, the bottom feeder moron black wannabe scholars, and the loser dead end white racists.
Go away Puppy Chow and get a job or sign up for school somewhere so you don't have to continue to obsess a continent of people you have nothing to do with.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I'm not to fool around Africana is a sober matter that's been made silly by the world for too long. So get serious, clowning has dulled your wit a bit.
K ≠ Q. The sounds are produced from two different places. When a Q is written as K, that K needs a diacritic dot underneath it.
You're spinning madly on this. First you make the throwstick into an N. Then you make it into a K. Now it's a Q and some kind of A. What a useless alphabetic if all this were true. Here's what's true
And why all this run around? To escape this fact examined glyph by glyph: throwstick - (beligerent?) foreigner logogram; unpronounced determinative folded cloth - uniliteral 's;' unpronounced phonetic complement bullrush - biliteral 'sw,' south (king) feather - uniliteral 'y,' possessive chick - uniliteral 'w,' plural seated man - people logogram; unpronounced determinative strokes - plural logogram; unpronounced determinative
is simply SU.y.w in pronunciation. In Budge's context it means 'ones of the south.'
You tried dodging explaining your previous n.s.s.j.w to k.s.s.j.w spin and you wisely this time refused to spell (:GA(+s)SW.y.w:sa:|||) with your new found "phonetic" substitutes, but I'm not letting you off the hook. Wally, you got some splainin to do!
Stand up and account for this. Which is it Wally? Is it n.s.s.j.w as you originally stated or is it k.s.s.j.w as you also pedal? If the latter then why did you post the former? And do you really expect anyone even slightly familiar with mdw ntr to believe the throwstick at the beginning of a geo-ethnic descriptor is the pronounceable letter n or k or q or a or ??? You may as well toss in a T too since the earliest use of the throwstick was to denote eastern Libyans in the delta.
Don't forget to cite your kassou under its own entry.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I doubt nHs bears any meaning related to barbarian or worthless. Here's why. Look at Weny's list of nHs.w nationalities.
Note his inscribing of nHs Do those three guys forming the plural determinative look like worthless barbarians to you? To me they have the appearance of divine royalty.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I have to agree with Explorer in that this is more than just 'fishy'. It's funny how all of the examples Wally gives of rulers having demeaning names or titles come from Medieval Europe. medieval Europe and ancient Africa are two entirely different regions, times, and cultures.
We know that in African culture even today, but certainly in the past, names are considered sacred and spiritual aspects of a person. Even a commoner would not have name that is negative or demeaning to oneself let a lone a god-king!!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LOL It's just as I thought, then! Obviously Nhsw has no negative connotation in it all if it were to have those regal looking hieroglyphs. In all honesty I did not have much faith in substituting the meaning of Nhsw from "negro" to "worthless" speaking of or worthless...
quote:gayguy699<==8 scribbled: (some stupid sh*t as usual)
I can't help but get the feeling part of the reason for your disparaging and dumb response is my comment on your homeland of Europe, ey chap! Posted by abdulkarem3 (Member # 12885) on :
quote:Nahas in Arabic means "copper"
in arabic nu-haas means copper not nahas when pronounced nahas it means struggle and hardship. it has thses similiar meanings : misfortune bad luck illness bumper It can be used "nahas or nahees min ayaam" meaning the heavy days. ayaam nahsaat- days of hardship the arabs would call a cold wind that comes from behind you nhsaa nahas is also dust or sand some say nahas is wind with the dust or sand some say it means extreme coldness n-haas or n-haasy is also a generous person n-haasat- generous woman one with good character and spends on the people ni-haas also means smoke while nu-haas means copper.
nahas is also the word used to describe mars and saturn while s'ad(fortune) is used to describe other than them.
the arabic is very close to the wolof meaning of nehes
Posted by abdulkarem3 (Member # 12885) on :
yaum nehes also means very hot day with wind and sandstorms look nehes also means an overwhelming matter
Posted by abdulkarem3 (Member # 12885) on :
mehi or mhw in arabic means north and can means things orientated towards the north.
aamu or an-aami means camels,goats,sheep just like the mdu ntr
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I have to agree with Explorer in that this is more than just 'fishy'. It's funny how all of the examples Wally gives of rulers having demeaning names or titles come from Medieval Europe. medieval Europe and ancient Africa are two entirely different regions, times, and cultures.
We know that in African culture even today, but certainly in the past, names are considered sacred and spiritual aspects of a person. Even a commoner would not have name that is negative or demeaning to oneself let a lone a god-king!!
just had to port this one over to here...
--How about Ancient China?
哀 ai "the Lamentable": ZHOU (Lu, Hann), HAN, JIN, TANG, JINN 衝 chong "the Offender": HAN 代 dai "the Dynastical": TANG, MING 度 du "the Careful": SONG 廢 fei "the Deposed", 廢帝 feidi: JIN, LIU-SONG, XIWEI, BEIQI; always translated 共 gong "the Common": ZHOU, error for 恭 gong 簡 jian "the Simple": ZHOU (Qin, Yan), combination 簡文 jianwen: JIN, LIANG 考 kao "the Deceased": ZHOU, combination 考烈 kaolie: (Chu) 匡 kuang "the Corrector": ZHOU 厲 li "the Severe": ZHOU 靈 ling "the Clever": ZHOU, HAN, combination 武靈 wuling: (Zhao) 湣 min "the Confused": (Qi), combination 景湣 jingmin: (Wei) 赧 nan "the Embarrassed": ZHOU. 平 ping "the Appeaser": ZHOU, HAN 仁 ren "the Human": SONG, XIA, YUAN, MING, QING 孺子 ruzi, "the Kid", a person that has no title for ancestor veneration, like 孺子嬰 Ying the Kid, last emperor of the Han. Ying actually also means "baby" or "kid", but it was also a common name during Zhou and Han dynasties. 殤 shang "Young Deceased": HAN 少 shao "the Minor", 少帝 shaodi: HAN, LIU-SONG, TANG; always translated 順 shun "the Obedient": HAN, LIU-SONG, TANG, YUAN, combination 天順 tianshun: YUAN 孝 xiao "the Filal": ZHOU (Qin, Yan), SONG, MING; during Han added to the dynastic title, making combinations like 孝武 xiaowu: JIN, LIU-SONG, BEIWEI, 孝文 xiaowen: BEIWEI, 孝明 xiaoming: BEIWEI, 孝莊 xiaozhuang: BEIWEI, 孝昭 xiaozhao: BEIQI, 孝成 xiaocheng: (Zhao) 玄 xuan "the Mysterious": TANG 幽 you "the Darkened": ZHOU (Chu) 躁 zao "the Hot-tempered" (Qin) -----
...and, oh yes, the Oromo are not particularly happy with their being called "Galla" by the Amhara - the "Rome na n Rome za Ityopia." They see this appelation as being neither sacred nor spiritual...
Posted by AswaniAswad (Member # 16742) on :
Nahasi is not of arabic origin and the word for Copper is not of Arabic Origin but Bilen it came to the Arabic threw Abyssinian and they got it from the kushitic natives that were already there. Even in Nara Nahasi means cultivators.
I have used the throw sticks of the Tigre,Beja(hedareb)
Here is a video that shows u the throwsticks of the Tigre, and Beja who are the same people of eritrea
^ Interesting. So you suggest that the word Nhsi means 'cultivators' then and doesn't have to do with 'copper' or metallurgy??
By the way, the Egyptians also used throwing sticks:
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wally: just had to port this one over to here...
--How about Ancient China?
哀 ai "the Lamentable": ZHOU (Lu, Hann), HAN, JIN, TANG, JINN 衝 chong "the Offender": HAN 代 dai "the Dynastical": TANG, MING 度 du "the Careful": SONG 廢 fei "the Deposed", 廢帝 feidi: JIN, LIU-SONG, XIWEI, BEIQI; always translated 共 gong "the Common": ZHOU, error for 恭 gong 簡 jian "the Simple": ZHOU (Qin, Yan), combination 簡文 jianwen: JIN, LIANG 考 kao "the Deceased": ZHOU, combination 考烈 kaolie: (Chu) 匡 kuang "the Corrector": ZHOU 厲 li "the Severe": ZHOU 靈 ling "the Clever": ZHOU, HAN, combination 武靈 wuling: (Zhao) 湣 min "the Confused": (Qi), combination 景湣 jingmin: (Wei) 赧 nan "the Embarrassed": ZHOU. 平 ping "the Appeaser": ZHOU, HAN 仁 ren "the Human": SONG, XIA, YUAN, MING, QING 孺子 ruzi, "the Kid", a person that has no title for ancestor veneration, like 孺子嬰 Ying the Kid, last emperor of the Han. Ying actually also means "baby" or "kid", but it was also a common name during Zhou and Han dynasties. 殤 shang "Young Deceased": HAN 少 shao "the Minor", 少帝 shaodi: HAN, LIU-SONG, TANG; always translated 順 shun "the Obedient": HAN, LIU-SONG, TANG, YUAN, combination 天順 tianshun: YUAN 孝 xiao "the Filal": ZHOU (Qin, Yan), SONG, MING; during Han added to the dynastic title, making combinations like 孝武 xiaowu: JIN, LIU-SONG, BEIWEI, 孝文 xiaowen: BEIWEI, 孝明 xiaoming: BEIWEI, 孝莊 xiaozhuang: BEIWEI, 孝昭 xiaozhao: BEIQI, 孝成 xiaocheng: (Zhao) 玄 xuan "the Mysterious": TANG 幽 you "the Darkened": ZHOU (Chu) 躁 zao "the Hot-tempered" (Qin) -----
And yet I see NO Chinese having a disparaging name like "barbarian" or even "worthless".
quote:...and, oh yes, the Oromo are not particularly happy with their being called "Galla" by the Amhara - the "Rome na n Rome za Ityopia." They see this appelation as being neither sacred nor spiritual...
Yes and I can't imagine why any Egypian ruler would have an appelation for "worthless" either. Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Wally: just had to port this one over to here...
--How about Ancient China?
哀 ai "the Lamentable": ZHOU (Lu, Hann), HAN, JIN, TANG, JINN 衝 chong "the Offender": HAN 代 dai "the Dynastical": TANG, MING 度 du "the Careful": SONG 廢 fei "the Deposed", 廢帝 feidi: JIN, LIU-SONG, XIWEI, BEIQI; always translated 共 gong "the Common": ZHOU, error for 恭 gong 簡 jian "the Simple": ZHOU (Qin, Yan), combination 簡文 jianwen: JIN, LIANG 考 kao "the Deceased": ZHOU, combination 考烈 kaolie: (Chu) 匡 kuang "the Corrector": ZHOU 厲 li "the Severe": ZHOU 靈 ling "the Clever": ZHOU, HAN, combination 武靈 wuling: (Zhao) 湣 min "the Confused": (Qi), combination 景湣 jingmin: (Wei) 赧 nan "the Embarrassed": ZHOU. 平 ping "the Appeaser": ZHOU, HAN 仁 ren "the Human": SONG, XIA, YUAN, MING, QING 孺子 ruzi, "the Kid", a person that has no title for ancestor veneration, like 孺子嬰 Ying the Kid, last emperor of the Han. Ying actually also means "baby" or "kid", but it was also a common name during Zhou and Han dynasties. 殤 shang "Young Deceased": HAN 少 shao "the Minor", 少帝 shaodi: HAN, LIU-SONG, TANG; always translated 順 shun "the Obedient": HAN, LIU-SONG, TANG, YUAN, combination 天順 tianshun: YUAN 孝 xiao "the Filal": ZHOU (Qin, Yan), SONG, MING; during Han added to the dynastic title, making combinations like 孝武 xiaowu: JIN, LIU-SONG, BEIWEI, 孝文 xiaowen: BEIWEI, 孝明 xiaoming: BEIWEI, 孝莊 xiaozhuang: BEIWEI, 孝昭 xiaozhao: BEIQI, 孝成 xiaocheng: (Zhao) 玄 xuan "the Mysterious": TANG 幽 you "the Darkened": ZHOU (Chu) 躁 zao "the Hot-tempered" (Qin) -----
And yet I see NO Chinese having a disparaging name like "barbarian" or even "worthless".
quote:...and, oh yes, the Oromo are not particularly happy with their being called "Galla" by the Amhara - the "Rome na n Rome za Ityopia." They see this appelation as being neither sacred nor spiritual...
Yes and I can't imagine why any Egypian ruler would have an appelation for "worthless" either.
Alas, here we go again...in the long drawn-out and now pointless discussion on the "Egypitan origin of the Fulani," I attempted, in vain to explain the various usages in English of the term "origin" , but as understanding this would make further discussion either moot or pointing in a different direction of discourse-- and here, again, we encounter an uncanny lack of knowledge of the use of the English language - in this case the usage of Imperial titles in Chinese which, along with the examples of European titles illustrates the fact that many of these Royal titles were not pompous at all, to the contrary...
Elementary English Grammar 101
Synonym: –noun 1. a word having the same or nearly the same meaning as another in the language, as joyful, elated, glad. 2. a word or expression accepted as another name for something, as Arcadia for pastoral simplicity; metonym. Yet, Djehuti says that Chinese names such as "the lamentable" or "the confused" or "the common" are not disparaging names like "barbarian" or even "worthless". sure...
With all due respect, are you simply giving advertisement to an excellent forum "the nile valley" because it (Nhsw topic) is but a variation on what is being discussed here. Again, with all due respect - I have already given the answer to the meaning of the term "Nahasou" which, I think, is easily grasped by the functionally literate in the English language; but for those who are not: The following are terms (ie, synonyms) used to designate Southerners/Sudani in Ancient Egyptian:
Nahasou
Kenus
Kashi
Kashit
Ekosh
Ethosh
Ekooshe
Ethoshi
Stiu (Bowmen: Asiatics and Sudani)
Khentiu (Leaders, Founders, ...)
Khentiu Hon Nefer (ie, "Founders of the Perfect Order").
Resiu (Southerners )
TaSti (Land of the Bow(men)); TaStiu
=== Still don't get it? Compare the two terms used by an Ethiopian ethnic group to self-describe themselves:
Oromo - the Powerful Galla - the Strangers; ie, *Kafirs, polluted..."
Still don't get it? Sorry...
*NOTE: Kafir = One who does not follow the Prophet Muhammad or the Qur'an
Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
Wally,
I am indeed encouraging serious posters interested in African studies to leave Egyptsearch and start posting on the thenilevalleyforums or elsewhere, not for mercantile purposes, since I am not the owner of the page, nor that I get anything in return from this page, but because Egyptsearch has not been made for us nor by us, is hardly ever moderated, leading to random thread deletion (including posts I put a lot of my own time for, gathering information and posting it on here), random insults, 40+ pages nonsense debates as well as homosexual and coprophile material instigated by posters just coming on here to start trouble leading me not to post anything significant on here.
Coming back to the topic, perhaps you could go back to the last post of my cited thread, which contains material that have not been discussed in this very thread nor elsewhere and discuss my argumentation. I believe I very well understand your argumentation, which I however do not consider as a "demonstration", since I do not see any internal Kemetic grammatical evidence demonstrating your connection between nḥj and nḥsj, not any phonological set of examples illustrating your connection with Wolof nahas.
With all due respect, are you simply giving advertisement to an excellent forum "the nile valley" because it (Nhsw topic) is but a variation on what is being discussed here. Again, with all due respect - I have already given the answer to the meaning of the term "Nahasou" which, I think, is easily grasped by the functionally literate in the English language; but for those who are not: The following are terms (ie, synonyms) used to designate Southerners/Sudani in Ancient Egyptian:
Nahasou
Kenus
Kashi
Kashit
Ekosh
Ethosh
Ekooshe
Ethoshi
Stiu (Bowmen: Asiatics and Sudani)
Khentiu (Leaders, Founders, ...)
Khentiu Hon Nefer (ie, "Founders of the Perfect Order").
Resiu (Southerners )
TaSti (Land of the Bow(men)); TaStiu
=== Still don't get it? Compare the two terms used by an Ethiopian ethnic group to self-describe themselves:
Oromo - the Powerful Galla - the Strangers; ie, *Kafirs, polluted..."
Still don't get it? Sorry...
*NOTE: Kafir = One who does not follow the Prophet Muhammad or the Qur'an
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
...Don't really know how much has one got to see in order for one to see...
Euphemisms for Suteni/Sudeni :
nhsj = "Nubian" - according to "Middle Egyptian" by James P. Allen
nHsj - Nehesi ("The Black One"). This name may perhaps refer to the ethnical origin of this king. ( this laugher from "The Ancient Egypt Site" - but we get the idea for the inaccurate translation...)
quote:Diop gives the word Nahas (barbarian) and Nahasiou (barbarians) as 'the term by which the Egyptians designated the Nubians and other Blacks of Africa'
-- from Re-inventing Africa: matriarchy, religion, and culture By Ifi Amadiume
page 282 - Notes: The African Origin of Civilization
quote: 18: Nahas: "good-for-nothing" in Wolof
...
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
...and from Erman's Egyptian Grammar:
"The boundary is erected in order that no negro at all would overstep it" "r tm rdi sn sw nhsi nb"
but we here, know better don't we; to say "The boundary is erected in order that no negro at all would overstep it" in Ancient Egyptian properly we would say: "r tm rdi sn sw kemi nb"
We can immediately see the distortion of Egyptian ideology; but the reality is:
a} Rome.tn na Rome - "We Men above Men" -the Egyptians - who stood above;
b) Nahasou - "other Blacks; Sudanese" who were 'barbarians' vis-a-vis the Rome.tn na Rome...
c) ...the rest of humanity
You know, just like later on in Ancient Greece, to which of course, no one even raises an eyebrow...
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
The word classifying non-Egyptians is hh3s.t.yw.
Unlike nhhsw, which is applicable only to those living upriver, hh3styw is the rough equivalent of barbarian, i.e., outlander.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Wally:
...and this was a name of a 13th Dynasty Pharaoh
Note that his Nsu Biti title contains the determinative for "Barbarian" - his SaRe title merely lists him as "Nahasi" - which I interpret as "The Barbarian" - a synonym in Mtau Ntr for "Peasant, supplicant, worthless ..."
Furthermore, it is simplistic to take "Nehesw" as "stranger", for if that were the case, there would be no need for a determinative/ideogram suggestive of "foreigner" in say, the first cartouche. That determinative is there, precisely to modify the meaning of the noun in question.
And like I said some time ago, one of the reasons for posting a link to the older discussion, "Nehesw" seemed particularly reserved for groups from beyond Kemet's southern border; it wasn't applied to those in their east, north or west, as far as I recall. Thus Nehesw has got to be more than a synonym for "stranger", or its Greek equivalent of "barbarian" which is not reserved for any one group or territory, as the former appears to be.
As for the equation of the term with "worthlessness", well, a question had already been posed on that, awaiting a grown-up answer that is a 'sequitur'...
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
...Budge, Page 344
...like I said...
quote: The following are terms (ie, synonyms) used to designate Southerners/Sudani in Ancient Egyptian:
Nahasou
Kenus
Kashi
Kashit
Ekosh
Ethosh
Ekooshe
Ethoshi
Stiu (Bowmen: Asiatics and Sudani)
Khentiu (Leaders, Founders, ...)
Khentiu Hon Nefer (ie, "Founders of the Perfect Order").
Resiu (Southerners )
TaSti (Land of the Bow(men)); TaStiu
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote: alTakruri wrote: The word classifying non-Egyptians is hh3s.t.yw. Unlike nhhsw, which is applicable only to those living upriver, hh3styw is the rough equivalent of barbarian, i.e., outlander.
...Not quite right...
...also... Aku = foreigner, non-Egyptian in Egyptian and in Wolof
also you have 'Foinekhu' and....
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Are you teling me hh3s.t.yw is not the closest equivalent of the concept of outlander as barbarian?
Why did you neglect to cut and paste Budge's entry for hh3s.t.yw? Is there something you want to keep out of sight out of mind?
Are we not supposed to see that you have no evidence that NHSW = barbarian which after all is what you proposed?
Deflection won't save you from the error of postulating NHSW as barbarian when NHSW only applied to folk upriver and never applied to A3MW, TMHHW, or H3W NBW.
quote:Originally posted by Wally:
quote: alTakruri wrote: The word classifying non-Egyptians is hh3s.t.yw. Unlike nhhsw, which is applicable only to those living upriver, hh3styw is the rough equivalent of barbarian, i.e., outlander.
...Not quite right...
...also... Aku = foreigner, non-Egyptian in Egyptian and in Wolof
also you have 'Foinekhu' and....
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Of course, even the definitions he gives are two different ones-- 'barbarian' and 'worthless'
Barbarian means foreigner but in a pejorative way whereas worthless means of course having no worth. The two terms have very different meanings and neither of them make sense for Nhsw!
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Of course, even the definitions he gives are two different ones-- 'barbarian' and 'worthless'
Barbarian means foreigner but in a pejorative way whereas worthless means of course having no worth. The two terms have very different meanings and neither of them make sense for Nhsw!
...Made sense to Diop and other scholars and if you can't see the relationship between "barbarian" and "worthless", I can't help you; perhaps a refresher in English might help, not given here, but here's an example anyway:
"His behavior was that of a barbarian" or you could use a synonym for "worthless" to say the same thing: "His behavior was wretched"...
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LOL Sorry but "barbarian" still does not mean 'worthless'! The ancient Greeks considered peoples of Western Asia and Africa as 'barbarians' yet whatever negativity they viewed of them being non-Greeks it certainly wasn't "worthless" as they acknowledge these people as civilized and more ancient than themselves!
Also, your main problem is the SAME as usual-- you place too much faith in Diop and his findings. You still cannot accept the fact that while Diop was right about alot things mainly Egypt's African identity and the antiquity of African civilization in general, he still wasn't 100% correct or right about everything. For example, he's correct that Egyptian is an African language and as such is related to Wolof, but he's obviously wrong to say that Egyptian and Wolof languages share a significantly close genetic relationship that every single Egyptian word has a Wolof cognate. That much was demontrated quite clearly by Adogbe, Wally, and others here multiple times!
Yet you never learn, or rather you refuse to...
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
The following will probably be of little or no value to someone who dogmatically keeps invoking 'my dependency on Diop (!?) as an argument of some sort but for others here, these are a list of words (Budge) in Ancient Egyptian for the terms for Barbarian/Foreign/Stranger which are interchangeable - synonymous:
Barbarian/Foreign/Foreigner: (Note: all of the definitions given are by Budge.)
Kau (also Kawi) - strangers, foreigners, aliens, men of foreign speech
Aku - aliens, foreigners, enemies
Bu kiu - foreigners, strangers
Piteu - foreign bowmen, barbarians
Fenkhu - foreigners
Nanaiu - foreigners
Ruti - foreign, external, alien, from outside
Khasti - foreigners, barbarians
Khepu - foreigners, strangers
...and also...
Worthless:
Oun - worthless, to commit a sin, evil, defect
Nti - the poor, the destitute, the worthless, the damned
Khemi - foe, enemy, fiend, worthless person, worthless men
to which, later on, the Greeks parroted -
quote:barbarians are like children, unable to speak or reason properly, cowardly, effeminate, luxurious, cruel, unable to control their appetites and desires, politically unable to govern themselves.
...you know, worthless..
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ So you are projecting Greek prejudices of foreigners on to Egyptians?!
'Barbarian' which is derived from the Greek word barbaroi, while meaning 'foreigner' more accurately means 'mutterer' as the root word 'barbar' is an expression for blabber or jibberish which is how Greeks perceive non-Greek languages.
While the Greeks did hold negative views against foreigners and even called some of them vile there is STILL no synonymy between the words 'worthless' and 'barbarian'!
Neither is there synonymy between khastyw (foreigner) and 'worthless' whatever that word in the Mdu-neter may truly be. Nor have you demonstrated that Nhsw means either other than upriver Nile dwellers!
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ So you are projecting Greek prejudices of foreigners on to Egyptians?!
'Barbarian' which is derived from the Greek word barbaroi, while meaning 'foreigner' more accurately means 'mutterer' as the root word 'barbar' is an expression for blabber or jibberish which is how Greeks perceive non-Greek languages... Nor have you demonstrated that Nhsw means...
...thanks for the (we already knew) onomatopoeic demonstration of the origin of the word 'bar-bar-bar-bar...' - barbarian. Why not throw in the useless fact that 'Barbara' means female barbarian...and you definitely would NOT give Diop's similar demonstration that the origin of the term "Berber" is similar...but that's not the issue here.
What we are talking about here is what I posted as far back as 2005:
quote: Nhsj (Nahasi)- a Sudanese man Nhsj.t (Nahasit) - a Sudanese woman Nhsjw (Nahasou)- Sudanese; southerners in general Nhsjw (Nahasou)- The Sudanese tribes in the Tuat, the results of the masturbation of Ra.
I personally think that the title "Pa Nahasi" was a self-deprecating play on words that would imply something like the Pharaoh calling himself "The Barbarian!" or "The Stranger!" - literally it means "The Sudani man".
Contextual usage...
It was my personal take on the contextual usage of the term "Nahasi" as barbarian/stranger that led those who would debate this to perceive an 'opening.' - Wrong!
Ex: If I were reading a novel that was written in the 1930s and encountered the expression "Marcus was the ultimate gay blade!" - I would interpret this to mean that Marcus was the 'happy-go-lucky man about town.' ; reading that expression in a novel written in 2000, I would interpret that to mean Marcus was homosexual. - contextual usage & comprehension!
Elementary English Grammar 101 - refresher
Synonym: –noun 1. a word having the same or nearly the same meaning as another in the language, as joyful, elated, glad. 2. a word or expression accepted as another name for something, as Arcadia for pastoral simplicity; metonym. Now, Djehuti says that Chinese names such as "the lamentable" or "the confused" or "the common" are not disparaging names like "the barbarian" or even "the worthless"!?!
Nahasi; PaNahasi does NOT mean 'worthless; the worthless' ; it means "Sudani;The Sudani"...
A Sudani in Kame is a foreigner:
The_Foreigner:...The_alien, "The_fresh off the boat," The_greenhorn, The_immigrant, The_stranger...
...do you get it yet?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Yeah, I get it! -- You don't know what you're talking about which is unfortunately usually the case when it comes to the linguistics of certain words.
Please demonstrate exactly how the Egyptian Nhsw means "worthless" or where in any Mdu Neter did Egyptian refer to the peoples south of them in general as being as such! I understand that some Nhsw groups were described as vile or wretched if they were enemies, but to say that the word Nhsw itself and thus Nhswi people in general were viewed as 'worthless' is just as bad as racist scholars who translated Nhsw into "nigger"!! You realize that 'worthless' is just another connotation associated with the slur 'nigger', right?! Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yeah, I get it! -- You don't know what you're talking about which is unfortunately usually the case when it comes to the linguistics of certain words.
Please demonstrate exactly how the Egyptian Nhsw means "worthless" or where in any Mdu Neter did Egyptian refer to the peoples south of them in general as being as such! I understand that some Nhsw groups were described as vile or wretched if they were enemies, but to say that the word Nhsw itself and thus Nhswi people in general were viewed as 'worthless' is just as bad as racist scholars who translated Nhsw into "nigger"!! You realize that 'worthless' is just another connotation associated with the slur 'nigger', right?!
You need to change the expression to because:
a) You still don't get it - I'll bet you a cookie that everyone else following this does...
b) It is you who don't know what I'm talking about.
c) You are trying to change the rules of language, grammar, syntax, etc., to comply with your own inability to understand and/or agree:
I could give a rat's ass about racist scholars interpreting this as a slur comparable to 'nigger.' Should I shudder that this might happen and therefore withhold this information? I think not...To the Kememou - The Men above Men - everybody else in the world were 'niggers!'; especially the Asiatics (White folks) - it's recorded in their language, there are examples that I have provided above...
It is a fundamental African (Human) canon that every other African group than yours is a 'stranger, barbarian, ... Ask a Hausa or Fulani to explain to you what exactly does the expression 'sabon gari' mean, actually...discuss this with some Continental Africans around campus in Atlanta...I have run out of demonstrations, maybe they can help you...
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Not to get inbetween the debate with Wally and Djeuhti, but I always thought that the Kemetians linked the Southerners to there God.
I always thought that the Sudanese were thought to have been created by the Same God as the Egyptians and the Aamau were created by a different God?
If the Kememou thought of other Africans as worthless then why would they claim other africans as being created by there main God? Maybe I am wrong about this. Wally if you could clarify this Thanks.
Peace
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING: Not to get inbetween the debate with Wally and Djeuhti, but I always thought that the Kemetians linked the Southerners to there God.
I always thought that the Sudanese were thought to have been created by the Same God as the Egyptians and the Aamau were created by a different God?
If the Kememou thought of other Africans as worthless then why would they claim other africans as being created by there main God? Maybe I am wrong about this. Wally if you could clarify this Thanks.
Peace
So What? (Please, try not to fall into the trap of trying to oversimplify human society):
I'll ask you some questions: -same God or not -
a) Why did the Kememou distinguish on their ethnic murals: 2 seperate (yet identical phenotypically) African groups -
and I 'apologize' to the 21st century mind that we would not mis-interpret Nahasu to mean "My Black brothers"
b) Why were the Sudanese referred to as Khentiu - "the Founders (Founding fathers!)" as well as Khentiu hon nafre - "Founders of the Perfect Order" and you also had the Hotepu Nahasu - "Peaceful Sudanese" who served as the police force in Egypt; which suggests the existence of "Not-so-Peaceful Sudanese"...
c) which brings to mind the unceremoniously named Sudanese-Egyptian people, the Wawat or the "Rebels" - Egypt was always having trouble with this group...
More importantly, why is the example of "a)" replicated across the African continent to this day:
> The Amhara of Ethiopia see themselves as the perfect people; other Africans (except maybe the Tigrinya) as "not-so-perfect" - Asiatics (ie, White folks) aren't even considered as being people (a different God made them???)
> The Tutsi of central Africa also see themselves as the center of the universe; all other Africans beneath them...
In fact, it would prove to be far more fruitful to try and find a Black African ethnic group that did not have this unique world view of themselves vis-a-vis 'the others'...(the exception that would prove the rule.)
American colleges and universities are filled with bright, intelligent African students, who if you became their friend, could give you valuable insight into this particular African 'philosophy'... Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Now I ask you who could be more worthless than the Khentiu - "the Founders (Founding fathers)" or Khentiu hon nafre - "Founders of the Perfect Order"
Yes indeed, the very epitome of worthlessness!
quote:Originally posted by Wally:
a) Why did the Kememou distinguish on their ethnic murals: 2 seperate (yet identical phenotypically) African groups -
b) Why were the Sudanese referred to as Khentiu - "the Founders (Founding fathers!)" as well as Khentiu hon nafre - "Founders of the Perfect Order" and you also had the Hotepu Nahasu - "Peaceful Sudanese" who served as the police force in Egypt; which suggests the existence of "Not-so-Peaceful Sudanese"...
c) which brings to mind the unceremoniously named Sudanese-Egyptian people, the Wawat or the "Rebels" - Egypt was always having trouble with this group...
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Now I ask you who could be more worthless than the Khentiu - "the Founders (Founding fathers)" or Khentiu hon nafre - "Founders of the Perfect Order"
Yes indeed, the very epitome of worthlessness!
There in lies the contradiction. Wally claims that Egyptians acknowledge certain Nhsw groups with reverence such as Khentiu hon nefer (founders of perfect order), yet insists that the word Nhsw itself means "worthless"!
It just doesn't make any sense.
Posted by Kamillion (Member # 11484) on :
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
The Egyptian determinative is used to remove the ambuguity of a word; makes a word specific and concise...
This fundamental linguistic law of the Mtau Ntr is constantly and consistently ignored in favor of 'bad grammar' or in order to make a word mean whatever someone chooses it to mean!
We see here all the time, pointless arguments about what the word 'Km.t' refers to - land, soil, almost anything but what the word actually means; this is accomplished by simply ignoring the determinative:
NU = CITY, TOWN, COMMUNITY, NATION
any argument which ignores or simply try to deny this is simply wrong and there is simply no reason for further debate - "Mierda" in Spanish means 'crap' and its various synonyms. - there is nothing to debate...
Likewise, I have shown that 'Nahasou' means 'Sudanese' and have given the various ways in which this word is to be read:
If one can't comprehend this basic law of Egyptian grammar, then I, as well as the Egyptian scribes, can only shake our heads... Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Yes the determinative on this primary Old Kingdom text is quite informative and telling, isn't it?
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I doubt nHs bears any meaning related to barbarian or worthless. Here's why. Look at Weny's list of nHs.w nationalities.
Note his inscribing of nHs Do those three guys forming the plural determinative look like worthless barbarians to you? To me they have the appearance of divine royalty.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I have to agree with Explorer in that this is more than just 'fishy'. It's funny how all of the examples Wally gives of rulers having demeaning names or titles come from Medieval Europe. medieval Europe and ancient Africa are two entirely different regions, times, and cultures.
We know that in African culture even today, but certainly in the past, names are considered sacred and spiritual aspects of a person. Even a commoner would not have name that is negative or demeaning to oneself let a lone a god-king!!
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
I don't even know why I bother to waste my time, (except maybe because of the fact that you are so godawful wrong!) I mean why should you expect a response when you made no reference to the examples I have provided...You should look up the word 'Dogmatic' - no, never mind, I'll do it, please: Dogmatic -characterized by assertion of unproved or unprovable beliefs; inflexible, rigid.
So, of course, context doesn't mean anything to you, obviously - You do understand the difference between 'bad' and 'bad' in colloquial speech don't you?
Khastiu + (Determinative) man + 4 = the four Great nations of Sudan
Nuhas + (Determinative) captive = Sudani captive which Budge transposes to mean 'negro' (sic!)
Now, all of these words have different connotations and the one which you have offered up is simply another connotation of the word; a seemingly religious one...
quote: Connotation: A meaning of a word or phrase that is suggested or implied, as opposed to a denotation, or literal meaning. A characteristic of words or phrases, or of the contexts that words and phrases are used in
From what you've posted, it appears, from a distance, that the word you reference is "Khast/Kha Nahas - followed by gods, plural, who bear a striking resemblance to the god Shu, a Sudani (Anu) god...
from this we can derive:
Nahasou - The Sudanese in the Tuat, the results of the masturbation of Ra. You should also note that the 'Rome n na Rome' or the Egyptians were the result of the tears 'rime' of the god...
Shu and Anu Heaven:
quote: ...In Anu the god Temu produced the gods Shu and Tefnut, and in Anu dwelt the great and oldest Company of the Gods, Temu, Shu, Tefnut, Keb, Nut, Osiris, Isis, Set, and Nephthys. The abode of the blessed in heaven was called Anu... - Book of the Dead by E.A. Wallis Budge
you can, of course, totally ignore what I have just posted, and sing the chorus, in unison with Djehuti - "Nahasou does not mean worthless...even if you've neeever said it...buuut you connoted it..." Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
What you should've bothered to do is read the given text ... with comprehension. It has nothing to do with religion but it has everything to do with real scribal art (where we see them shaking off oh so vain dogmatic wrongheadeness).
In your initial post Nahasi means barbarian with absolutely no support from Budge's dictionary which gives "he of the Sudan" for the glyphs in Nehesi's cartouches.
The barbarian part is your baseless interpolation, a bad (but not bad) example of sleight of hand, as is tacking worthless onto Budge's translation of nehhi (peasant, suppliant).
Just stick to Nehesi meaning Sudani. Though probably limiting those who the term applied to, it's your best shot.
BTW invoking Dj was a dumb thing to do. While he was away matriculating I already tore a new ... into your worthless barbaric supposition. I'm a telling you iffen you'd stick the subject matter instead of interjecting red herrings you might get somewhere.
[Hope you got and enjoyed my double entendres! ]
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
...
KHEMI; SHEMI = FOE, ENEMY, FIEND, WORTHLESS PERSON,, MEN OF NOTHING...
Posted by Meti Sutn Anu (Member # 4547) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wally: alTakruri,
My God, I'm over here discussing apples and you're out somewhere discussing grapes! I am almost certain that most people reading my post understood exactly what I was saying, but it is clear that you most certainly didn't!
quote: Please provide an example that justifies taking the last letter of nHs -- 's' -- along with what is only a suffix denoting plurality -- 'w' -- to arrive abruptly at a word -- 'su' -- that isn't a plural.
--what acrobatics got you to this misunderstanding? The word, I imagine, that is in question is the one that is written N.s.s.j.w - the second "s" is an "s" but it is written using the "s" from the sedge plant; this is the scribe telling us that we're talking about a southern people; he could have used the other forms of "s" but... - the "w", the ubiquitous quail chick is the plural "ou" or "u" - the word is "Nahas.ou"
quote: We don't know the precise literal translation for nHs because it's an unused root in Egyptic with no other word in the vocabulary associated with it other than the NK usage -- sting.
No, you don't know the literal translation of the word, but Budge does, Erman does, I does...
quote: rsu is not nHs.w
How did you get here??? Your confusion is confusing the hell out of me, for sure.
Now, res = south resu = southerners Nahasu = Suteni (you know, Sudanese) The Nahasu therefore, are also resu...
quote: Medjay lived southeast of AE's southern border. Tjemehu lived southeast of AE's southern border. Yet, Medjay were classed nHs.w but Tjemehu weren't. pWN.t was south of Egypt and was part of t3.NH(+H)s.y{X3ST} and Punt most certainly isn't Sudan.
...meeting you as you arrive from circling the barn; Pwoni.t was most certainly a part of the Sudan; I don't recall whether it was Budge or Breasted who informed us that Punt and Nubia were always associated, connected & also Sudanese in the exact same manner that ancient Mali, Songhai, Ghana, etc., were Sudanese civilizations...
quote: As for the delta marshland, Upper Egypt was south of it but I nowhere find residents of t3.shm`w ever labeled nHs.w Perhaps you can show us an instance that fits your Tupelo and Mexico analogies?
If you didn't get it the first time, I doubt that any re-explaining would do any good, especially since you insist on distorting things...but, what the hey!...
Ta Shemou = land.south.peoples and referred to Egyptian nationals residing in the Nile Valley proper.
Nahasu = Suten.peoples and referred to non-nationals living on the nation's southern borders...
An American knows that someone who lives in Tupelo, Mississippi is living in America, probably an American, and that someone living in Mexico City, Mexico is probably Mexican... ...and I'm not going to try anymore to simplify something that is already simple to understand...
quote: The AEs knew of no entity Sudan. So what is your position now? Sudan or worthless or negro or???
Whether you choose to accept it or not, the very name Sudan derives from "Suten" It was part of their language and of course, a part of their geographical knowledge - and your insistence of reducing a word to an absolute is both astounding as well as frustrating in a conversation:
Sudan/Suten - 'those who are of the Sedge plant - country' , "those who are of the King's country", foreigners; thus barbarians and worthless, King, King of the South,...
quote: We all very well understand the nHs.w were south of Egypt. That's why in the past I translated it southerner basing myself on BG 4:5 vg30 where the order of non-Egyptians follows the sun's path. It was a useful translation for meaning but it's not literally what nHs means. I'm beginning to think nHs is a root from a non-AEL.
The root of the word is "Neh" or "Nah" which is the name of an Egyptian bird, which I call "Guinea fowl", which I recall I got from Gardiner in his book on "Middle Egyptian"
The strongest use of this word is: "eNeh" for eternity, forever and ever...
Don't mean to intrude her wally but your translating the word Nahasu to mean 'Suten' which I was under the impression that the word meant 'Royal'.
How does the word 'Suten' go from the word 'royal' to 'worthless'.
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by Meti Sutn Anu:
...Don't mean to intrude her wally but your translating the word Nahasu to mean 'Suten' which I was under the impression that the word meant 'Royal'.
How does the word 'Suten' go from the word 'royal' to 'worthless'.
??? Where did you get this from???
On 31 August, I posted this infomatiion:
quote: Khastiu + (Determinative) man + 4 = the four Great nations of Sudan
Nuhas + (Determinative) captive = Sudani captive which Budge transposes to mean 'negro' (sic!)
The Egyptian determinative is used to remove the ambuguity of a word; makes a word specific and concise...
(In every book written on Egyptian grammar there is always a section on determinatives, which everyone interested in the Mtau Ntr should study carefully...)
This fundamental linguistic law of the Mtau Ntr is constantly and consistently ignored in favor of 'bad grammar' or in order to make a word mean whatever someone chooses it to mean! We see here all the time, pointless arguments about what the word 'Km.t' refers to - land, soil, almost anything but what the word actually means; this is accomplished by simply ignoring the determinative. Here are examples of words which are the same but are determined differently; different connotations and meanings:
Kam - to behave in an appropriate manner
Kam - to be Black
Kam - to end, complete
Now I'll let you interpret the following:
Nahasu =
Nahasu = Posted by Meti Sutn Anu (Member # 4547) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wally:
quote:Originally posted by Meti Sutn Anu:
...Don't mean to intrude her wally but your translating the word Nahasu to mean 'Suten' which I was under the impression that the word meant 'Royal'.
How does the word 'Suten' go from the word 'royal' to 'worthless'.
??? Where did you get this from???
On 31 August, I posted this infomatiion:
quote: Khastiu + (Determinative) man + 4 = the four Great nations of Sudan
Nuhas + (Determinative) captive = Sudani captive which Budge transposes to mean 'negro' (sic!)
The Egyptian determinative is used to remove the ambuguity of a word; makes a word specific and concise...
(In every book written on Egyptian grammar there is always a section on determinatives, which everyone interested in the Mtau Ntr should study carefully...)
This fundamental linguistic law of the Mtau Ntr is constantly and consistently ignored in favor of 'bad grammar' or in order to make a word mean whatever someone chooses it to mean! We see here all the time, pointless arguments about what the word 'Km.t' refers to - land, soil, almost anything but what the word actually means; this is accomplished by simply ignoring the determinative. Here are examples of words which are the same but are determined differently; different connotations and meanings:
Kam - to behave in an appropriate manner
Kam - to be Black
Kam - to end, complete
Now I'll let you interpret the following:
Nahasu =
Nahasu =
I do apologize Wally I could have been mistaken but I thought I remember seeing it on your old website.
According ot Wallis Budge the word 'Suten' means 'King':
Gods of the Egyptians, Part 2 By E. A. Wallis Budge Pg 162
Secondly, I know I might get the ready comprehension talk but I don't see how the word 'Suten' and 'Nahasu' relate to each other.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wally: ... Nahasu =
Nahasu =
One main difference I see is that person in the first set of glyphs free with his hands in reverence while the person in the second set of glyphs is obviously bound. Are you saying that the meanings for both sets are exactly the same??
And what of Takruri's set which shows people in regal posture?...
Now it's one thing to argue that the bound person or captive is 'worthless' but the other peoples in the other glyphs are as well?!
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Wally:
... Nahasu =
Nahasu =
One main difference I see is that person in the first set of glyphs free with his hands in reverence while the person in the second set of glyphs is obviously bound. Are you saying that the meanings for both sets are exactly the same??
And what of Takruri's set which shows people in regal posture?...
Now it's one thing to argue that the bound person or captive is 'worthless' but the other peoples in the other glyphs are as well?!
Hey, why are you guys avoiding my question with more questions, huh ?
Are you still wanting to ignore the determinatives? So look, I am planning on posting a new topic - "So, let's ask the experts" and some of what I will say is repeated here...
The Mtau Ntr Determinative is similar to the ways adjectives, adverbs ,etc., are used in English and other languages, even though the Mtau Ntr determinative itself isn't spoken, but only read (otherwise, why would it be there at all). Let me give several examples from Spanish:
Madre = Mother in spanish; without a "determinative" it simply means that...
now adjectvies, adverbs are used to explain unambiguously what type of Madre that we are talking about -
Madre de Dios = Mother of God
Madre del Diablo = Mother of the Devil
We got two different types of Mothers here now don't we!
Now here's how we should read Mtau Ntr words --from the above illustrations--
Example 1: Nahasu Sa ashai = Suteni man - abundant/many
Example 2: Nahasu Su ashai = Suteni captive/prisoner - abundant/many
Example 3: Khast - Nahasu Nteru = Foreign suteni - company of gods ....
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LOL We are not talking about determinatives but the actual word itself! So what?? You're now changing the the definition of Nhsw to 'Suteni' (Sudani??). What happened to your worthless/barbarian??! Wally, sometimes you can be your own worst foe. Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
Note: The whole purpose of my posting this topic was to illustrate clearly that the word Nahasi was NOT in any sense an ethnic determiner as many 'Egyptologists' have tried to put forward in order to falsely distinguish the Egyptian as a separate racial group from the Black African. This point was not taken and the topic has devolved into a totally pointless discussion...
quote: ^ LOL We are not talking about determinatives but the actual word itself! So what?? You're now changing the the definition of Nhsw to 'Suteni' (Sudani??). What happened to your worthless/barbarian??! Wally, sometimes you can be your own worst foe.
(sigh ----------------------------)
...I posted the following back in 2005 and it is replicated at the beginning of this very topic and subsequently re-iterated during this discussion:
Nhsj (Nahasi)- a Sudanese man Nhsj.t (Nahasit) - a Sudanese woman Nhsjw (Nahasou)- Sudanese; southerners in general Nhsjw (Nahasou)- The Sudanese tribes in the Tuat, the results of the masturbation of Ra.
The way it's written
Most words in the Mdw Ntr that began with the letter "n" were written with the hieroglyph of a water ripple; the word "Nhsjw" was written using the 'Guinea-fowl' glyph with the pronunciation being "Nh;Neh;Nah" - very few words began with this 'letter.'
verifying rasol's correct analysis
In Budge's dictionary, alongside the word "Nehsi" there are additional hieroglyphics showing the different ways of writing the "Nehsi" in the plural. What interests us here is the following example:
Hieroglyphic: (throw stick)+ s + (sedge plant) + "ou"
--The "throw stick" can be either a determinative; an ideogram; or a phonogram "rs" or "Aa"; at the beginning of a sentence it's a phonogram (and probably also an ideogram which indicates "foreign".)
--The "sedge" hieroglyph ("(n)su; sut") indicates the south; ie;Upper Egypt, Sudan... So we have "rs"+ "s" + "su" or "Resou" which means "southerners" with the use of the "throw stick" to indicate "foreign southerners"; the same as it is used in the word "Aamu" to indicate "(foreigners) Asiatics"...
:essentially all non-Egyptian peoples in the south; "strangers" ...................... There's one Pharaoh that I came across while reading "Egyptian Language: Easy Lessons in Egyptian Hieroglyphics by EWB". If I recall correctly, the example text was from the "Stelae of Pa-Nahesi" (25th Dynasty?).
I personally think that the title "Pa Nahasi" was a self-deprecating play on words that would imply something like the Pharaoh calling himself "The Barbarian!" or "The Stranger!" - literally it means "The Sudani man". (not "The Nubian")
...and more recently - 2009
quote: All of the lands south and southeast of Egypt (sometimes also including the northeast) the Egyptians called, Tanoute, "God's Land." Within this great region, the Egyptians located the different countries and peoples of Ethosh. From the Old Kingdom onward, in addition to Ta-Seti, the Egyptians applied the name TaNahas as a general designation for Ethosh (n.b., nahas means, "suden;" Panahasi, "the sudeni" becomes a common personal name, developing into the Biblical name, Phineas)...
Note: Suten; Suden; Sudan; Suteni; Sudani; etc...are merely variations in the spelling of a single entity; like 'color' and 'colour'...
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
James P Allen's 2001 "update" of Nahasi -- from his Middle Egyptian book's tiny little dictionary...
Note: image is fuzzy 'cause I had to enlarge it several times...
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
More Wally schooling indeed.
as well as with the guinea fowl ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
is a word which in no way contains nHs.w ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Do those three 
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
just had to port this one over to here... 
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
because:![[Mad]](mad.gif)
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