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Posted by mentu (Member # 14537) on :
 
The argument is that kemet means 'black people' although euros maintain it means 'black land', however ancient kemetans used determinatives to indicate the exact meaning of words, and the word 'kemet' has no determinative of land,a drawing of a man and a woman is idicated.

For those who have a deeper knowledge of medu neter,where did euros get the land issue?

Is there any word in medu neter with indicating determinatives of land and people on the same word to indicate 'black people of the black land'.Hence euros clinging to this definition?

I will appreciate your input.
 

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Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
no egyptologist that I have ever read maintains it means "black people." Perhaps you can point one out to us that does.
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Diop^^
 

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Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
IF he said that he is in the minority.
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Minority or not he was an Egyptologist.Also in Hebrew Kham means black,in medu-ntr kem means black.
Ask Any of the language expert on campus and see what they say....ps don't try to lead them just ask them.
 

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Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
Shedden and the guys at the University of memphis say it is 'Black land." Also, just finished Tutankhamun's Armies (a good book, it's cheap on Amazon) and they say "Black Land" as well. Frankly I have always seen it referred to as black land until a few years ago when the radical afrocentrics came along.
 

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Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
 
Everyone knows "kem" = "black". A "kem" cat would be a "black" one.

The contention today's mainstream European 'egyptomania' has is what the name of the state Km.t "signified".

Km = black

Km.t = black

.t denotes femininity and/or plurality

Km.t [nwt] (the name for the state of Dynastic Keme) = black community/city

Rm = man

yw = people

Rm.t = men

When

Km.t rm.tyw is written it means "ancient egyptians" or black men of men
 

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Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
really does not whatbox. If the egyptians would have been black they would have had no real awareness of it. It is not impossible for a black man in 2009 to think in the same terms as a man living 3000 years ago. Modern blacks are obsessed with their blackness. No other race of people today sees their personal identity wrapped up in their pigment the way modern blacks are inclined to do. It is very unlikely that the Egyptians, Persians, Nubians etc gave much thought at all to pigment.

Most accounts say the reference is to black soil.
 

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Posted by Ebony Allen (Member # 12771) on :
 
Yet you clearly give much though to race yourself or you wouldn't be on here arguing with facts.
 

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Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
I do not argue with facts when I am presented with them. Ebony, if you were objective you would look at the subject from both sides.
Why do people say it means "black soil?"
 

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Posted by Serpent Wizdom (Member # 7652) on :
 
why would the ancient kemite use the words meaning "black" to indicate soil? was the soil actually black or what? why would they put people in the same reference to "black" in their hieroglypics? people who think they were talkin about black land, what are your sources to prove this?
 

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Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
Serpent, why? maybe you are not asking the right questions? the point is this, most egyptologist say they meant black soil. If you email top egyptologists that is what they will tell you. Perhaps you should do so.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Mentu, to answer your question, the word for land is 'Ta' which I believe is indicated by a symbol for terrain. 'Kemet' of course has no determinative and instead shows people. As Whatbox correctly shows, the suffix 'et' is a feminine used for plurality of a people. Hence 'Rmt' means people in general but RtnaRmt means something like 'Men of men' (interestingly a title used by many African groups including in nearby Sudan) or 'Kmt' which means 'blacks' (black people).

People like the professor can talk about "land" or "soil" all they want but the Mdu-Neter is clear on the issue.
 

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Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
well genius, black soil it will be. You and I both know that egyptologists see it that way.

You know Djehuti there is a reason why we have only a handful of scholars cited on this board. The top historians do not agree with you guys and these trips you take to Neptune and back.

We have thread after thread on ancinet greece but never have I heard the name of Donald Kagan mentioned? Why is that? I'll tell you why. You know that the top historians are not going to agree with this pseudo-political history you folks try to practice.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Obviously you either have poor reading comprehension OR as usual you ignored the valid linguisitic and scholarly FACT I just pointed out. There are actually many Egyptologists from like Shaw, Lesko, etc. etc. who acknowledge this basic FACT-- NO soil or land determinative used at all the symbols for Kmt are black coal for Kem and the symbol for people. Thus Kmt means black people or literally blacks. You or these vague Egyptologists you speak of cannot escape from the fact that there is no symbol or word for "soil" or land in the word Kmt. So really there is nothing for you to SPIN, 'professor'
 

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Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
Catechism: "The Egyptians called their country Kemet or Black after the color of the soil."

Western Egyptology contrived this deception from Herodotus, “Egypt is a land of black soil…We know that Libya is a redder earth.” (Herodotus, The History, book 2:12); conveniently ignoring the fact that he also mentioned that the Egyptian people were black as well. So, to anyone not familiar with the Ancient Egyptian language, this "Kemet = black soil" may seem plausible. It is not.

Here's the Mdu Ntr - Understanding Kmt

Km (to be black) used as an adjective
km;kmem;kmom - black
kemu - black (m)
keme.t - black (f)
> hime.t keme.t - "black woman"
> himu.t keme.t - "black women"

Km used as a noun
keme.t - any black person, place, or thing
A determinative is used in order to be more specific
keme.t (woman) - "the Black woman"; ie, 'divine woman'
keme.t (cow) - "a Black cow" - ie, a 'sacred cow'
kem - a black one (m)
keme.t - a black one (f)
kemu - black ones (m)
kemu.t - black ones (f)
kemeti - two black ones

Used as Nationality (literally):
Sa Kemet - a man of Black (an Egyptian male)
Sa.t Kemet - a woman of Black (an Egyptian female)
Rome.t Kemet - the people of Black (Egyptians)
Kemetou - Blacks (ie, 'citizens')
Kememou - Black people of Black

Noun/Adjectives of Nationality
Kemetu - Black's peoples (Egyptian citizens)
Kmemu - Black people (the Egyptian people)
Resu - Southern people (Upper Egyptians)
Ret - The Men [Rot - men] - a shorthand writing - pronounced 'Rome'
Ret na Rome - We Men above mankind [Rome - men;mankind]
Rome n Keme - Men of Black ("Egyptians")
TaMeru - Land of the Inundation people (Egyptians)
Tawiu - The Two Lands people (Egyptian) [Ta;to - land]
 

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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Wally

All these facts you post will go over the Head of Patriot who refuses to shake away his wrong views on Ancient Egypt.

Peace
 

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Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by KING:
Wally

All these facts you post will go over the Head of Patriot who refuses to shake away his wrong views on Ancient Egypt.

Peace

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Oh I know this
I was responding to mentu's question and to newcomers to this forum who might find this information helpfull...Peace to you...
 

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Posted by mentu (Member # 14537) on :
 
Whenever Kemet is written in mdu neter no determinative for land is given,a drawing for a man and a woman is always presented. I have also seen an expression for 'black cow' in which a determinitive for cow is drawn after the words,no euro has ever interprented this as 'black land'.

It seems that one has to bend over backwards for an interpretation of black land rather than black people.
 

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Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
Djehuti, After reading your post I did a quick run around the net. It appears that the reference to black land is correct. In fact one reference site noted that "black people" was an afrcentric view not shared by mainline scholars.
When you get sucked into these radical groups this is the kind of distortion that takes place.
You guys are wrong about almost everything. One faulty conclusion leads you two another.
 

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Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
 
^AP.. Instead of relying on false authority in Egyptologists (whatever primary qualifications that's supposed to bring you) who have nil training in linguistic analysis, why not actually present an argument that alludes to the use of the word land in Km.t. Simply tell us why people expound that view. Meanwhile, please tell what does Ta-seti and Ta netjer mean, what the significance of "Ta" is and why isn't such in the word Km't to determine what it signifies. Afrocentrism/Eurocentrism aside, do you ACTUALLY have evidence on your side? If so, where is it? If you are content with simply google searches then fine, at least present their evidence. If you can't, I'll just assume that there is none and that this is simply another case of Eurocentric dogma. I'd suggest people stop responding to your denials (denials, not rebuttals) until you can actually provide arguments to coincide with them.

I'm sure you haven't the faintest knowledge of linguistics given your consultation with google search engine instead of books.
 

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Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
It is more then a simple google search. I just read YET another book about the Egyptian military in which the Egyptologist that wrote it refered to "Kemet-black land." You see it everywhere. I think the reference article is correct. radical afrocentrics have added this to their collection of historical myths. Trust me Sundjata, there are no linguistics experts on this board.
 

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Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
 
^I'm not appealing to authority. You're just telling me what some random historian writes with out telling me why he writes it. Try to understand AP. Why do you think a lot of "radical afrocentrists" exist? Probably because they'd been force fed lies, many of which go against common sense, for decades. Now you're asking a board full of critical thinkers (whether you refer to the lot sweepingly as "Afrocentrists" or not) to just accept a view that obviously goes against basic linguistic understanding (hence, you need not be a linguist expert, as also stated by Ehret in reference to the application as a whole). You have no evidence at all.

I don't think it's as simplistic as km.t merely meaning "Black people". See Wally's post above. It is clear that km means Black so what's important is context and what comes after or before. Where is there any mention of land in Km.t? If you can't answer, then fine. I'd rather go against the grain and be labeled "Afrocentric" for my non-acceptance of your views on this, rather than be a blind follower who is force fed mainstream garbage that makes no sense and simply belongs to the ad nauseum fallacy of argumentation, where if you repeat a lie long enough it becomes true.

Though at the end of the day, I'm confident that Eurocentrists such as yourself (not intended as a pejorative) will continue to be far behind the Afrocentrists in a debate format given the fallacious errors that commonly occur in Eurocentric discourse. Numbers are on their sides so they simply repeat lies in unison. That is neither proof nor science, it's dogma.
 

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Posted by AryanEgypt (Member # 16469) on :
 
Israel was part of the Kushite empire. The Ethiopian kings hail directly from the ethnic Jews royal lines and whilst the two cultures are distantly linked, Arabnised east Africans aren't Semites. The Semites are a very ancient Afro-Asiatic people and they are not originally from Arabia or Mesopotamia but North Africa. The Ethiopians kings where Jews and Ethiopia acculturated a lot of Semitic elements. Nubia was situated in Sudan with about a quarter of its territory in what is now southern Egypt. The Nubian's where the Egyptians neighbours and they had their own kingdom. The Nubian's Pyramids small in size and sloppy build quality is archaeological evidence of ancient Negro workmanship.
 

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Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by AryanEgypt:
[QB] Israel was part of the Kushite empire. The Ethiopian kings hail directly from the ethnic Jews royal lines and whilst the two cultures are distantly linked

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sundjata:

quote:

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Originally posted by AryanEgypt:
[QB] Israel was part of the Kushite empire. The Ethiopian kings hail directly from the ethnic Jews royal lines and whilst the two cultures are distantly linked

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Prime example AP. As long as this type of loon bin, racist Eurocentric fringe nonsense exists, so will the Afrocentrists or merely those who seek to challenge it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sundjata:

quote:

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Originally posted by AryanEgypt:
[QB] Israel was part of the Kushite empire. The Ethiopian kings hail directly from the ethnic Jews royal lines and whilst the two cultures are distantly linked

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Prime example AP. As long as this type of loon bin, racist Eurocentric fringe nonsense exists, so will the Afrocentrists or merely those who seek to challenge it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:

Djehuti, my guess is you guys have no clue what you are talking about, we'll see. You make so many terribe mistakes on the black Greek subject this one is probably screwed up as well.

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quote:

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It is what happens when we put ideology ahead of scholareship. You guys should have already been talking to these egyptologists. You might even find you are right now and then. At the very least you will learn something.

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• primary documentaion exists for KM.t as a community,
  ethnonym, and as an adjective for body parts
• no primary documentation exists connecting the word
  km.t and any AEL word for land/soil, to my knowledge.

quote:

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Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
It is more then a simple google search. I just read YET another book about the Egyptian military in which the Egyptologist that wrote it refered to "Kemet-black land." You see it everywhere. I think the reference article is correct. radical afrocentrics have added this to their collection of historical myths. Trust me Sundjata, there are no linguistics experts on this board.

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...Hey y'all, you know this guy sounds strikingly like ol' Horemhab who once was a regular poster here and who was also from Texas - the same negative, illogic and all - I mean, do you have to be a linguistic expert to know that "Oso Negro" in Spanish means "Black Bear" or that "Naku penda" in Swahili means "I love you" or that "Anok w Keme.t" in Mdu Ntr means "I am a Black(an "Egyptian")...sheesh
 

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Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
I think Wally, that you have to be a linguistics expert IF you plan on challenging mainstream views on the subject.

Takruri, The fact that 'You' have issued your ideas on the subject is not good enough. All of these top egyptology departments teach the Egyptian language as part of their degrees.
You guys are so fond of just making things up with crappy historical method it is my guess you are doing it on this issue as well.
I'll check these departments early in the week but you and I both know what I am going to find. Perhaps they'll change their minds if I tell them you have spoken.
 

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Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
I think Wally, that you have to be a linguistics expert IF you plan on challenging mainstream views on the subject.

Takruri, The fact that 'You' have issued your ideas on the subject is not good enough. All of these top egyptology departments teach the Egyptian language as part of their degrees.
You guys are so fond of just making things up with crappy historical method it is my guess you are doing it on this issue as well.
I'll check these departments early in the week but you and I both know what I am going to find. Perhaps they'll change their minds if I tell them you have spoken.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mentu:
The argument is that kemet means 'black people' although euros maintain it means 'black land', however ancient kemetans used determinatives to indicate the exact meaning of words, and the word 'kemet' has no determinative of land,a drawing of a man and a woman is idicated.

For those who have a deeper knowledge of medu neter,where did euros get the land issue?

Is there any word in medu neter with indicating determinatives of land and people on the same word to indicate 'black people of the black land'.Hence euros clinging to this definition?

I will appreciate your input.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Whatbox:
Everyone knows "kem" = "black". A "kem" cat would be a "black" one.

The contention today's mainstream European 'egyptomania' has is what the name of the state Km.t "signified".

Km = black

Km.t = black

.t denotes femininity and/or plurality

Km.t [nwt] (the name for the state of Dynastic Keme) = black community/city

Rm = man

yw = people

Rm.t = men

When

Km.t rm.tyw is written it means "ancient egyptians" or black men of men

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quote:

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Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
really does not whatbox. If the egyptians would have been black they would have had no real awareness of it. It is not impossible for a black man in 2009 to think in the same terms as a man living 3000 years ago. Modern blacks are obsessed with their blackness. No other race of people today sees their personal identity wrapped up in their pigment the way modern blacks are inclined to do. It is very unlikely that the Egyptians, Persians, Nubians etc gave much thought at all to pigment.

Most accounts say the reference is to black soil.

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quote:

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and please let us all know what you find...please

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lmao
 

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Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
I do not argue with facts when I am presented with them. Ebony, if you were objective you would look at the subject from both sides.
Why do people say it means "black soil?"

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Mentu, to answer your question, the word for land is 'Ta' which I believe is indicated by a symbol for terrain. 'Kemet' of course has no determinative and instead shows people. As Whatbox correctly shows, the suffix 'et' is a feminine used for plurality of a people. Hence 'Rmt' means people in general but RtnaRmt means something like 'Men of men' (interestingly a title used by many African groups including in nearby Sudan) or 'Kmt' which means 'blacks' (black people).

People like the professor can talk about "land" or "soil" all they want but the Mdu-Neter is clear on the issue.

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quote:

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Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
Djehuti, After reading your post I did a quick run around the net. It appears that the reference to black land is correct. In fact one reference site noted that "black people" was an afrcentric view not shared by mainline scholars.
When you get sucked into these radical groups this is the kind of distortion that takes place.
You guys are wrong about almost everything. One faulty conclusion leads you two another.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bettyboo:

quote:

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Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
really does not whatbox. If the egyptians would have been black they would have had no real awareness of it. It is not impossible for a black man in 2009 to think in the same terms as a man living 3000 years ago. Modern blacks are obsessed with their blackness. No other race of people today sees their personal identity wrapped up in their pigment the way modern blacks are inclined to do. It is very unlikely that the Egyptians, Persians, Nubians etc gave much thought at all to pigment.

Most accounts say the reference is to black soil.

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The Egyptians were very aware of color. They were smart enough to color themselves brown and color the people to the "south" black, and color others pale. You can find awareness of color in the bible. Other groups are not reminded of their color or the way they look so it shouldn't be suprising that black people are so conscious of color and the way they look. It is because they live everyday being reminded of it.

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They were also smart enough to be aware and paint the shape of their limbs, does that mean they were obsessed by it?
 

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Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
Alas, the endless and repetitious meandering of the confused and ignorant mind that also assumes that everyone else here is equally dumb; the majority of folks here are intelligent, trust me. But it explains why these threads continue on and on without resolution. Now, I have personally provided both volumns of the Hieroglyphic dictionary (as well as presented samples here) and also Erman's Egyptian Grammar for folks here to study and for reference; but obviously these 'special' folks think that reading is somehow a quaint pastime or 'old school.'

How else do you explain, after providing so much reference material, that you get idiotic statements such as:

a) doesn't 'et' mean land as people? - no slow one, the "t" in "Kemet" is silent and only is there to indicate that the word is feminine; been explained here a thousand times.

b) the guy who talks about relying on so-called experts to explain words in a dictionary; can't read a book or is he hiding behind antiquated neo-colonial 'experts?' If this guy was a reader who was interested in Egypt, he would certainly be familiar with the book on the Peopling of Egypt symposium held in Cairo and how this one Egyptologist proclaimed to the gathering that "km" did not mean black! He was corrected of course, but that is tantamount to a professor of mathematics proclaiming that 2 + 2 = 6!

c) I already know what "Na Kammau" means, it means "These Blacks." I just wanted this ignorant person to hear it from an "official source." Dumb ass...

d) And let us not just focus on a single rendering of a word, where there has been interjected a false loophole. The beauty of language is in its explicit nature and the difficulty in altering its actual meaning...no amount of linguistic gymnastics is going to make 'padre' mean 'madre.'

There are other glyphs which self-describe the nationals of Ancient Egypt, we only need two of them: Kemut & Kammau (Kmemou)

It is important to point out that at the above mentioned symposium, where the same 'monoword' debate over "Kemet" and its meaning, one Egyptological expert argued that to say "Black people" in the Mdu Ntr, you would say "Kemu" - Well, we have "Kemu.t (determined by "Rome.t")
Kammau, Kmemou, Kmomou are words of far less ambiguity than either Keme.t or Kemu.t. It is virtually impossible to tweak these words; Kammau (Blacks) is determined by 'Nu.t' which indicates 'an Egyptian community or settlement.

Because Kammau and Kemu.t are Mdu Ntr words that are virtually impossible to tweak, they are ignored, and focus placed on the more 'tweakable' - due to the century+ long repetition of the lie -"Kemet"

e) And rarely do we have a discussion of what these Africans called White folks - they, like most Africans everywhere, called them Red peoples...
You know, like in Deshru.t, Deshretou which translates to Red devils, Red peoples, Horrible, Terrible, etc. It's all in the Hieroglyphic dictionary & Egyptian Grammar...!
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Indeed, this is just another case of 'the proof is in the pudding' with the pudding being the Egyptian language, Mdu-Neter itself!

There is no word for land or soil in Kmt. It's as simple as that.

Again, all of this was discussed before.

Some people just refuse to listen.
 

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Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
"the Egyptians divided their land between the lush Nile Valley, which they called Kemet (the black land) in reference to it's rich alluvial soil, and the desert, called deshret (the red land)."
Page 4

Tutankhamun's Armies
John Coleman Darnell and Colleen Manassa

Darnell PHD Yale Near Eastern Languages
Manassa Yale Professor
of Egyptology

Do we need to keep up this high school lesson or do you guys think it is time for you to lear how to do actual resaerch?
 

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Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Wally:

a) doesn't 'et' mean land as people? - no slow one, the "t" in "Kemet" is silent and only is there to indicate that the word is feminine; been explained here a thousand times.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Indeed, this is just another case of 'the proof is in the pudding' with the pudding being the Egyptian language, Mdu-Neter itself!

There is no word for land or soil in Kmt. It's as simple as that.

Again, all of this was discussed before.

Some people just refuse to listen.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Yonis2:

quote:

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Originally posted by Bettyboo:

quote:

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Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
really does not whatbox. If the egyptians would have been black they would have had no real awareness of it. It is not impossible for a black man in 2009 to think in the same terms as a man living 3000 years ago. Modern blacks are obsessed with their blackness. No other race of people today sees their personal identity wrapped up in their pigment the way modern blacks are inclined to do. It is very unlikely that the Egyptians, Persians, Nubians etc gave much thought at all to pigment.

Most accounts say the reference is to black soil.

---

The Egyptians were very aware of color. They were smart enough to color themselves brown and color the people to the "south" black, and color others pale. You can find awareness of color in the bible. Other groups are not reminded of their color or the way they look so it shouldn't be suprising that black people are so conscious of color and the way they look. It is because they live everyday being reminded of it.

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They were also smart enough to be aware and paint the shape of their limbs, does that mean they were obsessed by it?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
not according to the experts in the field Betty.

You cannot establish a point by calling the experts in the field liars. That is bizarre, almost to the point of being crazy. They have no reason to lie.

Further, if you cannot convince the leading egyptologists something is true your point will be lost to humanity.

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quote:

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It is Piye's Year 3 Stele that preserves the earliest Napatan record of the kingship tradition of Gebel Barkal. Here he declares that "Amun of Napata granted me to be ruler of every foreign country," and "Amun in Thebes granted me to be ruler of the Black Land (Kmt)" (FHN I 57; Reisner 1931, 89). The twin Amuns of Barkal and Karnak are presented here as mutually supportive aspects of each other, each giving the king a vital portion of his kingship. Only one Amun, however, is shown in the lunette. This is the ram-headed god of Napata, whom the text says gave the king "every foreign country." Yet we see that he is the one handing the king two royal crowns and thus also giving him the kingship of "the Black Land." One crown is the Red Crown of Lower Egypt, and the other is the cap crown, which obviously had some meaning analogous to, but not quite identical with, the White Crown. Here Amun of Napata seems to be granting the gift ascribed to Amun of Thebes. We wonder if there is an inconsistency here, or if we are to understand that the two gods are really exactly the same and perform the same tasks. We also wonder what the king really means here by the terms "foreign countries" and "the Black Land." Does the Red Crown of Lower Egypt symbolize "foreign countries"? Does the cap crown symbolize "Kemet"? **"Kemet", in this case, would have to be understood here as a united Nubia and Upper Egypt**. By the time of Harsiotef, "Kemet" had come to mean Kush (FHN II 446).

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• obtuse: dense: slow to learn or understand; lacking intellectual acuity
• obtusely - dumbly: in a stupid manner
• obtuseness - dullness: the quality of being slow to understand
• Someone who is “obtuse” is “annoyingly sensitive or slow to understand”

quote:

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What does the "t" (in Keme.t) has to do with whether land taking on the context as "people". What does the word being feminine has to do with whether the word land takes on the context of "People?"

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quote:

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How would those in Kmt express their land; the word soil refers to the ground or earth, but the word land can mean people unlike the word soil which cannot mean people.

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quote:

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You people are so excited about Egyptians calling themselves "black people". I don't think the term is black "people" but black "land" in which can mean People as in the case of a nation. Kemet sounds more correct as black land or black nation not black "people" though that is the right track. In English it must be translated to "Land of Black(s)" or Nation of Black(s)", not "black people". I don't understand why you fanatics are not getting it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
"the Egyptians divided their land between the lush Nile Valley, which they called Kemet (the black land) in reference to it's rich alluvial soil, and the desert, called deshret (the red land)."
Page 4

Tutankhamun's Armies
John Coleman Darnell and Colleen Manassa

Darnell PHD Yale Near Eastern Languages
Manassa Yale Professor
of Egyptology

Do we need to keep up this high school lesson or do you guys think it is time for you to lear how to do actual resaerch?

---

 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
The Kemetian Liquistics thread was last seen 20
December 2004 and is unlocatable in the archive
however I found it here. It's far too valuable to
become lost. Let's try to save it somehow before
it gets axed!!
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Originally posted 07 December 2004 10:21 PM

CHEIKH ANTA DIOP
Parenté génétique de l'égyptien pharaonique et des langues négro-africaines
Dakar: IFAN-NEA, 1977








 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Originally posted in full on 08 December 2004 01:19 PM

The pages from Diop show seven usages of KM.t and km.t in words for
people.

. . . .

Diop didnt do the translation. The translation comes from two European
sources, one German the other French, they being
1. the Worterbuch der Agyptischen Sprache and
2. the Prolegomenes a letude de la religion egyptienne.

. . . .

The determinatives seated man and\or seated woman mean people.

. . . .

In direct literal translation km.t.nwt means black nation, where the root
km (black) is an adjective suffixed by t which makes km.t a feminine noun
whose meaning 'black nation' is indicated by the determinative nwt. Since
km.t.nwt is a noun it can't be an adjective referring to the color of soil since
no determinative for soil is given. When km.t.nwt is literally translated as the
black land, the word land can only mean 'country' in the sense of 'nation.'
If land in the sense of soil was meant, the word ta would precede km.t,
something I have yet to see in a mdw ntr text.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Originally posted in full on 08 December 2004 02:54 PM

Please translate the following usages of km.t and show how nation
rather than people is meant.


KM.t.rmt&st| ||

km.t.yw.rmt| ||

st.st KM.t.shnt

Please study elementary hieroglyphics and Kmtyw vocabulary before
trying to comment on them.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Originally posted 09 December 2004 04:09 PM

This is the glyph Ta, Gardiners N16

It means land and appears at the front of words like Ta Meri.


This is the glyph xAst, Gardiners N25

It means land and appears at the end of words like Khurru or Kush.

This is the glyph niwt, Gardiners O49

It means city, town, etc,, and appears at the end of the word KM.t.
Note that KM.t also appears with other determinatives and not just
only with nwt.


The problem enters with our concept of the word land which can mean
a parcel of land or a country or nation. The Kmtyw marked the distinction
because nwt never means a parcel of land, it always mean a crossroads
village town city nation, etc.

Please provide an example from a mdw ntr text where the nwt determinative
means soil. What hieroglyphic dictionary gives soil as the meaning of nwt
which is a glyph that depicts a crossroads not a field or a desert or some such?
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Originally posted 10 December 2004 12:24 PM

Precisely why cannot mean black land in the sense of a
parcel of land which happens to be black in color. Nwt means crossroads,
village, town, city, nation. Hence logically means 'Black
nation' not 'black piece of land.'

Except in this instance of deliberate obfuscation, please show texts
where nwt is translated as 'land' instead of 'crossroads.' The dictionary
entry for nwt is village, town, city not land. The dictionary entries for t3
and smt are land.

Further, the codage system classes niwt under O (buildings) not in the
N (heaven earth and water) class where t3 and x3st are categorized.
Logic dictates that KM.t.nwt cannot mean 'black land' both according
to codage class and according to grammar where KM.t in KM.t.nwt is
indeed a feminine noun and is not an adjective. The name of a nation
is always a noun never an adjective.
 

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Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
 
Why would Egyptians call themselves the land of the blacks when they depicted the people south of them as being much darker than they were? Wouldn't they more than likely refer to the people of the south as being the Land of the blacks before they would themselves?

Most Egyptian art depicts them as having reddish brown skin. Reddish brown is exactly the color that skin turns when it is dyed with henna. Henna is an effective sunblocker and the Egyptians used it to dye hair, nails and skin. If there were fair skinned people living in Egypt, henna would have been an ideal thing to use against the sun.
 

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Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
 
Another thing that seems illogical to me. Alot of afrocentrists claim that all of North Africa, the Middle East, Greece and of course areas to the south had all black people. If this were true, than why would the Egyptians specifically refer to themselves as the land of the blacks?
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Originally posted here in full.

Transliteration and translation of the 1st 5 columns
of the Book of Gates the Gate of Teka Hra vignette 30


Col1: å-n HRW n nn (+n+n)
[(interogative) Heru to these:

Col2: HQAplural t-w RA
["Subjects, ye (of) Ra.

Col3: å-mplural.w DWApr.t
[Dwellers (in) netherworld.

Col4: k-m.tnwt d-sh-r.tnwt AKH
[Black community. Red community.

Col5: (+kh)scroll n t-nplural HQA.wplural RA
[Beatification to ye subjects (of) Ra!






The "four types" -- or better, the "subjects of Ra" -- scene depicts the sun in
the 5th night hour with Heru addressing the dead. He verbally divides them
into the blacks (Nile Valley folk, i.e., Egyptians and Nehesis) under his protection,
and the reds (folk dwelling east or west of the Nile) under Sekhet's protection.


Heru is addressing all four types, first with a general intro
to the entire party of the afterlife dead (who died that day) still
in their shrouds. He "beatifies" them, reanimates them with
"spirit" (breath/wind), and releases them from their shrouds.
Then after all that he addresses each group in turn speaking
of the origins of their creation and assigning their "patron" deity.
First the RT RMTW and then in from sunrise to sunset order the
AAMW, NHHSW, and TMHHW .

The NWT ideogram means neither 'people' nor 'land.' This has
been explained a few times already and there's a post in the
archive with the subject header "KMT NWT" detailing this. The
glyph depicts a crossroads indicating a village or city, i.e. a
settlement or habitation. thus the use of it to mean 'community'
in its broad application for the corpus of the dead. It always
appears as the determinative following the name of a city.

Copyright © March 2004 al~Takruri. All rights reserved.
 

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Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
You see alTakruri, after your painstaking representaion of factual evidence; one which I think is brilliant on your part, you get that followup response from an appropriately named poster "Simple girl" ...

obtuse:

• obtuse: dense: slow to learn or understand; lacking intellectual acuity
• obtusely - dumbly: in a stupid manner
• obtuseness - dullness: the quality of being slow to understand
• Someone who is “obtuse” is “annoyingly sensitive or slow to understand”

quote:

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Originally posted by Wally:
You see alTakruri, after your painstaking representaion of factual evidence; one which I think is brilliant on your part, you get that followup response from an appropriately named poster "Simple girl" ...

obtuse:

• obtuse: dense: slow to learn or understand; lacking intellectual acuity
• obtusely - dumbly: in a stupid manner
• obtuseness - dullness: the quality of being slow to understand
• Someone who is “obtuse” is “annoyingly sensitive or slow to understand”

Fortunately, these flakey few are just noisy & bothersome, and they don't have a clue as to how this forum's members have changed so progressively since we both began posting here a few years back...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Simple Girl:

Why would Egyptians call themselves the land of the blacks when they depicted the people south of them as being much darker than they were? Wouldn't they more than likely refer to the people of the south as being the Land of the blacks before they would themselves?

---

Again 'black' as the Egyptians referred to themselves is NOT about actual complexion so much as a sacred religous concept that associates the color with the divine. Such a concept is actually widespread in Africa. The Egyptians revered the color for another reason. Unlike cultures of the Near-East and especially those of Europe, black did not embody the negative or bad like death, sorrow, evil, dirty, ugly, etc. On the contrary, it represented positive aspects, in particular it embodied the most sacred belief of the Egyptians which is that of re-birth and regeneration.

Many Egyptologists and early scholars made the mistake of taking the black painted statues and images of many tombs in into their own Western cultural concepts, and thought that they were simply "funerary" images of the "deceased." Many of these statues are actually representations of the ba, which is a spiritual aspect essential for the after-life, thus these statues don't represent death but life.

Aahotep


Ahmose-Nefertari


Ba-statue of Tut


Two images of Tut, one being reborn


I remember Horemheb taking Wally's findings as a joke that the Egyptians saw themselves as being "under a black god." But in actuality this could very well be what the Egyptians believed in! Many early gods were depicted in the color black, again to symbolize the gods' powers of re-birth and regeneration, especially gods like Osiris and Isis. Even certain royals had the privilege to be represented in art as having a black color, whenever they are thought to attain a spiritual power or divine status.

Ausar Kemwer (Osiris the Great Black)


This belief system of the color black being sacred is actually widespread throughout Africa, especially East and Central Africa. For example, in Kenya the Masai people worship their supreme god called Lengai or N'gai, who they call the Black God. Lengai, is opposed by an evil god of chaos who, interestingly enough, is called the red god! The Oromo's supreme god is Waaka who is also called Waaka Guuracha, which means Black God. Many of these peoples relate the black color to the color of the storm coulds that give rain, and to the soil that is rich and fertile. Since Egypt has not had any rain since Neolithic times, it was the soil of the banks of the Nile that expresses the gods' life-giving powers. Which is most likely derived the very term 'Kemet' which means Black-Land as in the whole country not just soil. The Egyptians called themselves the people of the black (divine) land, and to further express their connection to the divine, would even call themselves 'Kemui'/'Kem-au'(Black People). Again the name had nothing to do with skin color but was symbolical and spiritual.

quote:

---

Most Egyptian art depicts them as having reddish brown skin. Reddish brown is exactly the color that skin turns when it is dyed with henna. Henna is an effective sunblocker and the Egyptians used it to dye hair, nails and skin. If there were fair skinned people living in Egypt, henna would have been an ideal thing to use against the sun.

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LOL Incorrect! The Egyptians never dyed their skins with henna but only their gray hairs when old! Reddish-brown was actually a common and natural complexion not only among Egyptians but many black Africans. Remember, black peoples vary in complexion and are not just ebony black in complexion!

Africans with reddish-brown complexions






 

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Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Simple Girl:
Are you suggesting that the Egyptians never used henna to dye their skin?

---

quote:

---

Henna painting is an ancient form of body art still practiced in Africa. The
artist makes a paste from the leaves of the henna plant, and uses the
paste to create designs on a person’s hands and feet. Both males and
females wear henna designs during important events in their lives, like
marriage, and initiation into adult-hood. In Sudan, the bride is decorat-
ed with henna as part of her wedding preparations. The designs are thought
to bring good luck and wealth to the wearer

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Simple Girl:

Another thing that seems illogical to me. Alot of afrocentrists claim that all of North Africa, the Middle East, Greece and of course areas to the south had all black people. If this were true, than why would the Egyptians specifically refer to themselves as the land of the blacks?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:
Catechism: "The Egyptians called their country Kemet or Black after the color of the soil."

Western Egyptology contrived this deception from Herodotus, “Egypt is a land of black soil…We know that Libya is a redder earth.” (Herodotus, The History, book 2:12); conveniently ignoring the fact that he also mentioned that the Egyptian people were black as well. So, to anyone not familiar with the Ancient Egyptian language, this "Kemet = black soil" may seem plausible. It is not.

Here's the Mdu Ntr - Understanding Kmt

Km (to be black) used as an adjective
km;kmem;kmom - black
kemu - black (m)
keme.t - black (f)
> hime.t keme.t - "black woman"
> himu.t keme.t - "black women"

Km used as a noun
keme.t - any black person, place, or thing
A determinative is used in order to be more specific
keme.t (woman) - "the Black woman"; ie, 'divine woman'
keme.t (cow) - "a Black cow" - ie, a 'sacred cow'
kem - a black one (m)
keme.t - a black one (f)
kemu - black ones (m)
kemu.t - black ones (f)
kemeti - two black ones

Used as Nationality (literally):
Sa Kemet - a man of Black (an Egyptian male)
Sa.t Kemet - a woman of Black (an Egyptian female)
Rome.t Kemet - the people of Black (Egyptians)
Kemetou - Blacks (ie, 'citizens')
Kememou - Black people of Black

Noun/Adjectives of Nationality
Kemetu - Black's peoples (Egyptian citizens)
Kmemu - Black people (the Egyptian people)
Resu - Southern people (Upper Egyptians)
Ret - The Men [Rot - men] - a shorthand writing - pronounced 'Rome'
Ret na Rome - We Men above mankind [Rome - men;mankind]
Rome n Keme - Men of Black ("Egyptians")
TaMeru - Land of the Inundation people (Egyptians)
Tawiu - The Two Lands people (Egyptian) [Ta;to - land]

---

 

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Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
 
This idea that the Egyptians depicted themselves as black still doesn't hold water with me. Like I said, why would they depict themselves as having reddish to reddish brown skin and call themselves the land of the blacks when there were much darker people to the south? I mean black is black. If they were a lighter skin tone than the people to the south,than they wouldn't have called themselves black. They clearly depicted the people to the south as having black skin.

Most scholars will agree with me on this. I don't care which way you try to interpret it, the Egyptians didn't see themselves as black or they would have shown it in their art.
 

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Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
 





Even your own source here shows that the Egyptians didn't think of themselves as black.
 

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Posted by Israel (Member # 11221) on :
 
Simple Girl,

Please remember that many, very many, African Americans have the exact same color as the Egyptians above. Does that mean that African-Americans aren't black?
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ First of all, being black does NOT mean one must have an ebony or coal dark complexion!! Being 'black' simply means having very dark skin and black people vary in complexion.

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan:

Definitions of black from the dictionary

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Obviously the ancient Egyptians were dark brown in complexion which is STILL considered 'black' today!

Second of all, AGAIN their reference to themselves as 'black' was NOT about actual skin complexion so much about their association with the divine and sacrity of the color black itself!

Or did you not read anything I posted above??!
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Simple Girl you are only lying to yourself if you do not consider peoples of reddish-brown as in mahogany to dark-brown as in chocolate complexions as 'black'!

Are you saying all these Egyptian royals don't appear black to you??















???
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Do you not consider all these living Africans below as 'black'??














 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
I am not saying they the Kemities did, but the Massai,Hemba,and many others did used Red Ochre on their skins.weither they did or not they like the Hemba and the Massai are still Blacks.
 

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Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
KEMET

A comprehensive list of the structure and usages of perhaps the most significant word in the Ancient Egyptian language. All of these words can be found in "An Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary" by E. A. Wallis Budge, Dover, NY

Used as an adjective
kem;kemem;kemom - black
kemu - black (m)
keme.t - black (f)
hime.t keme.t - "black woman" (woman of Black)
himu.t keme.t - "black women" (women of Black)

Used as a noun
keme.t - any black person, place, or thing
A determinative is then used to be more specific:
keme.t (woman) - "the Black woman"; ie, 'divine woman'
keme.t (cow) - "a Black cow" - ie, a 'sacred cow'
Keme.t (nation) - "the Black nation"
kem - a black one (m)
keme.t - a black one (f)
kemu - black ones (m)
kemu.t - black ones (f)
kemeti - two black ones

Used for Nationality
Sa Kemet - a man of Black (an Egyptian male)
Sa.t Kemet - a woman of Black (an Egyptian female)
Rome.t Kemet - the people of Black (Egyptians)
Kemetou - Blacks (ie, 'citizens')
Kememou - Black people (of the Black nation)

Other usages
Sa Kem - "Black man", a god, and son of
Sa.t Kem.t - "Black woman", a goddess (page 589b)
kem (papyrus) - to end, complete
kem.t (papyrus) - the end, completion
kemi - finished products
kem khet (stick) - jet black
kemwer - any Egyptian person, place or thing ('to be black' + 'to be great')
Kemwer - "The Great Black" - a title of Osiris - the Ancestor of the race
Kemwer (body of water) - "the Great Black sea" - the Red sea
Kemwer (body of water + river bank) - a lake in the Duat (the OtherWorld)
Kemwer Nteri - "the sacred great Black bulls"
kemwer (fortress) - a fort or town
Kemwer (water) - the god of the great Black lake
Kem Amut - a black animal goddess
Kemi.t-Weri.t - "the great Black woman", a goddess
Kem-Neb-Mesen.t - a lion god
Kem ho - "black face", a title of the crocodile Rerek
kem; kemu (shield) - buckler, shield
kem (wood) - black wood
kem.t (stone) - black stone or powder
kem.tt (plant) - a plant
kemu (seed) - seeds or fruit of the kem plant
kemti - "black image", sacred image or statue

Using the causative "S"
S_kemi - white haired, grey-headed man (ie, to have lost blackness)
S_kemkem - to destroy, overthrow, annihilate
S_kemem - to blacken, to defile

Antonyms
S_desher - to redden, make ruddy
S_desheru - red things, bloody wounds

Some interesting Homonyms (pages 770 > )
ḳem - to behave in a seemly manner
ḳemi - the south, Upper Egypt
ḳem.t - reed, papyrus
ḳemaa - to throw a boomerang
ḳem_au - to overthrow
ḳemam.t - mother, parent
ḳemamu - workers (in metal, wood)
ḳemḳem - tambourines
ḳemd - to weep
ḳemati - statue, image - same as kemti
ḳema - to create
ḳemaiu - created beings
ḳemau;ḳemamu - The Creator

Deshret - the opposite of Kemet
deshr.t - any red (ie, non-Black) person, place, or thing
deshr.t (woman) - "the Red woman"; ie, 'evil woman'
deshr.t (cow) - "a Red cow" - ie, the 'devil's cow'
deshr - a red one (m)
deshr.t - a red one (f)
deshru - red ones (m)
deshru.t - red ones (f) -- White or light-skinned people; devils
deshreti - two red ones
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Wally
Please repost complete with photocopy pages from
the source.

Everyone
The goal is not to convince simple girl or anyone
else. The goal is to provide proofs from the AEs
themselves as to their colour designation.

To that end we have presented plenty of evidence
for black. No one has presented primary documentation
for any other colour identity.


Motion properly moved and seconded.
All in favor signify by saying aye.
Aye (x ad infinitum).
Motion carried.
The blacks have it.
 

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Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
Takruri, What is it like going through life with your head in a cloud. It is black land, it is not black people and that is the way it is going to stay. The specialists in the field understand the data better than you and Wally do, obviously you are making a mistake of some kind.

But thats OK, even though this subject has long ago been decided perhaps you will have more time to plan your african attack on the middle east.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Originally posted here in full.

Transliteration and translation of the 1st 5 columns
of the Book of Gates the Gate of Teka Hra vignette 30


Col1: å-n HRW n nn (+n+n)
[(interogative) Heru to these:

Col2: HQAplural t-w RA
["Subjects, ye (of) Ra.

Col3: å-mplural.w DWApr.t
[Dwellers (in) netherworld.

Col4: k-m.tnwt d-sh-r.tnwt AKH
[Black community. Red community.

Col5: (+kh)scroll n t-nplural HQA.wplural RA
[Beatification to ye subjects (of) Ra!






The "four types" -- or better, the "subjects of Ra" -- scene depicts the sun in
the 5th night hour with Heru addressing the dead. He verbally divides them
into the blacks (Nile Valley folk, i.e., Egyptians and Nehesis) under his protection,
and the reds (folk dwelling east or west of the Nile) under Sekhet's protection.


Heru is addressing all four types, first with a general intro
to the entire party of the afterlife dead (who died that day) still
in their shrouds. He "beatifies" them, reanimates them with
"spirit" (breath/wind), and releases them from their shrouds.
Then after all that he addresses each group in turn speaking
of the origins of their creation and assigning their "patron" deity.
First the RT RMTW and then in from sunrise to sunset order the
AAMW, NHHSW, and TMHHW .

The NWT ideogram means neither 'people' nor 'land.' This has
been explained a few times already and there's a post in the
archive with the subject header "KMT NWT" detailing this. The
glyph depicts a crossroads indicating a village or city, i.e. a
settlement or habitation. Thus the use of it to mean 'community'
in its broad application for the corpus of the dead. It always
appears as the determinative following the name of a city.

Copyright © March 2004 al~Takruri. All rights reserved world wide.
 

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Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
Takruri, What is it like going through life with your head in a cloud. It is black land, it is not black people and that is the way it is going to stay. The specialists in the field understand the data better than you and Wally do, obviously you are making a mistake of some kind.

But thats OK, even though this subject has long ago been decided perhaps you will have more time to plan your african attack on the middle east.

---

• The Ancient Egyptians themselves
• Herodotus
• Aristotle
• Lucian
• Apollodorus
• Aeschylus
• Strabo
• Diodorus of Sicily
• Diogenes Laertius
• Ammanius Marcellinus
• Count Constatine de Volney
• Marius Fontanes - "Les Egyptes"
• EW Budge (finally, reluctantly) - "Keeper of the Egyptian and Assyrian Antiquities, British Museum"
• Professor C.A. Diop
• Professor Theophile Obenga
• The Christian Bible
• The Kebra Nagast (Ethiopian bible)
• The Tanakh (Torah)
• The Koran

...
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Baron Dominique-Vivant Denon (engraver of Napoleon's expedition)
 

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Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
nonsense wally? that I ask you to show me where the specialists in the field have accepted your silly theories and you call that nonsense?

If you walked into an Egyptology seminar made up of top scholars and presented this stupid racist stuff you put out they would ask you to leave.
I have backed up my points with testimony from top scholars, all you have is Djehuti and Takruri.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Originally posted 07 December 2004 10:21 PM

CHEIKH ANTA DIOP
Parenté génétique de l'égyptien pharaonique et des langues négro-africaines
Dakar: IFAN-NEA, 1977








 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Originally posted in full on 08 December 2004 01:19 PM

The pages from Diop show seven usages of KM.t and km.t in words for
people.

. . . .

Diop didnt do the translation. The translation comes from two European
sources, one German the other French, they being
1. the Worterbuch der Agyptischen Sprache and
2. the Prolegomenes a letude de la religion egyptienne.

. . . .

The determinatives seated man and\or seated woman mean people.

. . . .

In direct literal translation km.t.nwt means black nation, where the root
km (black) is an adjective suffixed by t which makes km.t a feminine noun
whose meaning 'black nation' is indicated by the determinative nwt. Since
km.t.nwt is a noun it can't be an adjective referring to the color of soil since
no determinative for soil is given. When km.t.nwt is literally translated as the
black land, the word land can only mean 'country' in the sense of 'nation.'
If land in the sense of soil was meant, the word ta would precede km.t,
something I have yet to see in a mdw ntr text.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Originally posted in full on 08 December 2004 02:54 PM

Please translate the following usages of km.t and show how nation
rather than people is meant.


KM.t.rmt&st| ||

km.t.yw.rmt| ||

st.st KM.t.shnt

Please study elementary hieroglyphics and Kmtyw vocabulary before
trying to comment on them.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Originally posted 09 December 2004 04:09 PM

This is the glyph Ta, Gardiners N16

It means land and appears at the front of words like Ta Meri.


This is the glyph xAst, Gardiners N25

It means land and appears at the end of words like Khurru or Kush.

This is the glyph niwt, Gardiners O49

It means city, town, etc,, and appears at the end of the word KM.t.
Note that KM.t also appears with other determinatives and not just
only with nwt.


The problem enters with our concept of the word land which can mean
a parcel of land or a country or nation. The Kmtyw marked the distinction
because nwt never means a parcel of land, it always mean a crossroads
village town city nation, etc.

Please provide an example from a mdw ntr text where the nwt determinative
means soil. What hieroglyphic dictionary gives soil as the meaning of nwt
which is a glyph that depicts a crossroads not a field or a desert or some such?
 

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Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
give it up Takruri, nobody outside of the goofball asylum accepts your silly theories. Kemet means black land. You do not have the academic skills to correctly use that information.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Originally posted 10 December 2004 12:24 PM

Precisely why cannot mean black land in the sense of a
parcel of land which happens to be black in color. Nwt means crossroads,
village, town, city, nation. Hence logically means 'Black
nation' not 'black piece of land.'

Except in this instance of deliberate obfuscation, please show texts
where nwt is translated as 'land' instead of 'crossroads.' The dictionary
entry for nwt is village, town, city not land. The dictionary entries for t3
and smt are land.

Further, the codage system classes niwt under O (buildings) not in the
N (heaven earth and water) class where t3 and x3st are categorized.
Logic dictates that KM.t.nwt cannot mean 'black land' both according
to codage class and according to grammar where KM.t in KM.t.nwt is
indeed a feminine noun and is not an adjective. The name of a nation
is always a noun never an adjective.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Originally posted here in full.

Transliteration and translation of the 1st 5 columns
of the Book of Gates the Gate of Teka Hra vignette 30


CAPS = multi-literal phonogram;
{ } = determinative;
(+) = unvoiced phonetic compliment;
. = suffix


Col1: å-n HRW n nn (+n+n)
[(interogative) Heru to these:

Col2: HQA{plural} t-w RA
["Subjects, ye (of) Ra.

Col3: å-m{plural}.w DWA{pr}.t
[Dwellers (in) netherworld.

Col4: k-m.t{nwt} d-sh-r.t{nwt} AKH
[Black community. Red community.

Col5: (+kh){scroll} n t-n{plural} HQA.w{plural} RA
[Beatification to ye subjects (of) Ra!






The "four types" -- or better, the "subjects of Ra" -- scene depicts the sun in
the 5th night hour with Heru addressing the dead. He verbally divides them
into the blacks (Nile Valley folk, i.e., Egyptians and Nehesis) under his protection,
and the reds (folk dwelling east or west of the Nile) under Sekhet's protection.


Heru is addressing all four types, first with a general intro
to the entire party of the afterlife dead (who died that day) still
in their shrouds. He "beatifies" them, reanimates them with
"spirit" (breath/wind), and releases them from their shrouds.
Then after all that he addresses each group in turn speaking
of the origins of their creation and assigning their "patron" deity.
First the RT RMTW and then in from sunrise to sunset order the
AAMW, NHHSW, and TMHHW .

The NWT ideogram means neither 'people' nor 'land.' This has
been explained a few times already and there's a post in the
archive with the subject header "KMT NWT" detailing this. The
glyph depicts a crossroads indicating a village or city, i.e. a
settlement or habitation. thus the use of it to mean 'community'
in its broad application for the corpus of the dead. It always
appears as the determinative following the name of a city.

Copyright © March 2004 al~Takruri. All rights reserved.
 

---

Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
OK genius, you tell me why top Egyptologist as well as linguistics experts do not agree with you. Don't just keep posting crap you do not understand.

If you wrote a paper for an Egyptology class they would demand that you cite top scholars just as I have asked you to do. You are not too old to learn.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Of course I understand it. This is my original
work. That's why it's copyrighted as intellectual
property.

What's obvious is it's beyond you mental abilities
to comprehend any of my preceding posts.

Verbatim cut & paste of others' work is simple
secondary school level reporting. That is the
level of education you have.

Those of us who've attained higher learning use
primary documentation then we apply skills such
as linguistics to arrive at independently thought
out original material. This makes our professors
proud not the baby level of parrotting which you
relish so much.
 

---

Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
 
Great work alTakuri. It's all too obvious that the allusion to "land" is completely non-existent. A person who chooses to inject that which is not there are, of course doing that according to his/her own prerogative but this has no bearing on the very simple rules of grammar and semantics set fourth. Until anyone can show where there's a determinative for land in Km.t, I'll consider those who expound that view to be misinformed hacks who base this belief on nothing more than repetition from other hacks.
 

---

Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
You have no higher learning nor do you have a terminal degree in ancient languages. You write like an idelogue. No trained scholar woiuld even begin to make the assumptions you make. If you were a scholar you would have posted the specialists I asked for to back up your points and specialists I could contact to verify your work. It is just baloney Takruri and you simply make this crap up.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Thank you. Yes I do synthesis after decades of
diligent study and research in a multitude of
disciplines relative to the field of Africana.

You however are littleo better than a donkey
carrying a load of books.
 

---

Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
 
^@AP.. Why should one need to cite an English specialist to simply verify the meaning of a text one has read in English? Surely your irrational appeals to false authority are merely red herrings. Your problem is that you don't think for yourself, hence "those who expound that view to be misinformed hacks who base this belief on nothing more than repetition from other hacks".

You drown in your own drool of retardation.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Horemheb/the Professor/Arrow/AmericanPatriot/etc.
knows that heknows not. He's been around ever
since this board started. His aim is not to
discuss or debate but simply to bury posts
that set a paradigm in oppostion to 19th
century European cultural history on
Africana.

I will not allow him his aim. I will see that
I have the last round no matter how many times
I must repost the exact same contributions.
 

---

Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
you call me names because you REFUSE to properly cite your work? You know I am right , you have been exposed. We are not talking about the 19th century, another error on your part. We are talking about modern present day scholarship.
NOW, give me the Egyptologist that support your work, I have posted mine....where are yours?
 

---

Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sundjata:
Indeed, "Black Nation" seems to be the most fitting translation in reference to a place. Objectively (and I may be going against the grain here), I've come to see more evidence that it referred primarily to the proposed divinity of this said nation and their ancestors (i.e, Kemwer, ''the great black'') as opposed to being a reflection of skin tone. Why "Black" is considered divine or sacred is debatable but surely it has something to do with resurrection.

More importantly is who it applied to and how it identified kin ship.

quote:

---

It is Piye's Year 3 Stele that preserves the earliest Napatan record of the kingship tradition of Gebel Barkal. Here he declares that "Amun of Napata granted me to be ruler of every foreign country," and "Amun in Thebes granted me to be ruler of the Black Land (Kmt)" (FHN I 57; Reisner 1931, 89). The twin Amuns of Barkal and Karnak are presented here as mutually supportive aspects of each other, each giving the king a vital portion of his kingship. Only one Amun, however, is shown in the lunette. This is the ram-headed god of Napata, whom the text says gave the king "every foreign country." Yet we see that he is the one handing the king two royal crowns and thus also giving him the kingship of "the Black Land." One crown is the Red Crown of Lower Egypt, and the other is the cap crown, which obviously had some meaning analogous to, but not quite identical with, the White Crown. Here Amun of Napata seems to be granting the gift ascribed to Amun of Thebes. We wonder if there is an inconsistency here, or if we are to understand that the two gods are really exactly the same and perform the same tasks. We also wonder what the king really means here by the terms "foreign countries" and "the Black Land." Does the Red Crown of Lower Egypt symbolize "foreign countries"? Does the cap crown symbolize "Kemet"? **"Kemet", in this case, would have to be understood here as a united Nubia and Upper Egypt**. By the time of Harsiotef, "Kemet" had come to mean Kush (FHN II 446).

---

- Timothy Kendall

Thus, we can understand Km.t as conforming more so to geopolitics than soil. The so-called black soil didn't just up and disappear from lower Egypt when the Assyrians conquered it, it was simply labeled foreign because of that action. Kush on the other hand, is Km.t because they and Upper Egypt were a united polity. The Upper Egyptians embraced the Kushites as liberators and brothers under Ammon, while the Assyrians were foreign invaders from the red [or evil] country. Had nothing to do with red soil, as demonstrated with Seth [Egyptian god of evil] worship being associated with Asiatics.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:
obtuse:

• obtuse: dense: slow to learn or understand; lacking intellectual acuity
• obtusely - dumbly: in a stupid manner
• obtuseness - dullness: the quality of being slow to understand
• Someone who is “obtuse” is “annoyingly sensitive or slow to understand”

Some examples of obtuseness on this topic:

quote:

---

What does the "t" (in Keme.t) has to do with whether land taking on the context as "people". What does the word being feminine has to do with whether the word land takes on the context of "People?"

---

After Djehuti patiently explains that there is no determinative in the word Kmt that has anything to do with soil (To, Eiten, etc...)

quote:

---

How would those in Kmt express their land; the word soil refers to the ground or earth, but the word land can mean people unlike the word soil which cannot mean people.

---

??? You mean, TaMeri - "My beloved land" isn't good enough? What Djehuti was trying to explain to slow folk like this is that Black Land would be written Kmt (determinative: "To") and not as it is written Kmt (determinative: "Nu" - Community, Nation)...

quote:

---

You people are so excited about Egyptians calling themselves "black people". I don't think the term is black "people" but black "land" in which can mean People as in the case of a nation. Kemet sounds more correct as black land or black nation not black "people" though that is the right track. In English it must be translated to "Land of Black(s)" or Nation of Black(s)", not "black people". I don't understand why you fanatics are not getting it.

---

...the correct term to describe the majority of the folks on this forum would be intelligent, or learned, and NOT fanatics... another word that comes to mind to describe the folks here is bright which is the opposite of dim; and dim is a synonym for obtuse..

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by KING:
What people fail to understand is that there is no word for Land in KM.T. It is translated as Black(s) this is one of the Major issues that Egyptologist try to cover up. They agree with Herodotus that Km.T means Black Land, yet when he says that Egyptians were also Black, then all of a sudden he is wrong. Teaching others the correct meaning of KM.T is important to drop the Ignorance.

Peace

---

quote:

---

Black Nation would be in reference to people not a place. The word Nation is practically always a people, though in minute cases it can be a territory, yet a territory of a particular "nation." For instance, Antartica is not a nation. "Places" that are uninhabitated or doesn't have a common people with the same language, same tribe/ethnic group, or same culture can't be a nation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bettyboo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by KING:
What people fail to understand is that there is no word for Land in KM.T. It is translated as Black(s) this is one of the Major issues that Egyptologist try to cover up. They agree with Herodotus that Km.T means Black Land, yet when he says that Egyptians were also Black, then all of a sudden he is wrong. Teaching others the correct meaning of KM.T is important to drop the Ignorance.

Peace

---

Bull, there must be a word for 'land' (area, ground, earth, territory, country) in "KMT". If they didn't have a 'word' they damn sure had "expressions", probably components of other words to express "land"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Simple Girl:
Why would Egyptians call themselves the land of the blacks when they depicted the people south of them as being much darker than they were? Wouldn't they more than likely refer to the people of the south as being the Land of the blacks before they would themselves?

Most Egyptian art depicts them as having reddish brown skin. Reddish brown is exactly the color that skin turns when it is dyed with henna. Henna is an effective sunblocker and the Egyptians used it to dye hair, nails and skin. If there were fair skinned people living in Egypt, henna would have been an ideal thing to use against the sun.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Simple Girl:
Another thing that seems illogical to me. Alot of afrocentrists claim that all of North Africa, the Middle East, Greece and of course areas to the south had all black people. If this were true, than why would the Egyptians specifically refer to themselves as the land of the blacks?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sundjata:

quote:

---

Black Nation would be in reference to people not a place. The word Nation is practically always a people, though in minute cases it can be a territory, yet a territory of a particular "nation." For instance, Antartica is not a nation. "Places" that are uninhabitated or doesn't have a common people with the same language, same tribe/ethnic group, or same culture can't be a nation.

---

It's in reference to a place of people, a community, the glyph associated with it was cited but I guess you missed it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bettyboo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by KING:
What people fail to understand is that there is no word for Land in KM.T. It is translated as Black(s) this is one of the Major issues that Egyptologist try to cover up. They agree with Herodotus that Km.T means Black Land, yet when he says that Egyptians were also Black, then all of a sudden he is wrong. Teaching others the correct meaning of KM.T is important to drop the Ignorance.

Peace

---

Bull, there must be a word for 'land' (area, ground, earth, territory, country) in "KMT". If they didn't have a 'word' they damn sure had "expressions", probably components of other words to express "land"

---

The word for Land is "Ta", hence Ta-seti (land of the Bow).. Point out where this is in Km.t.. This has been explained before but I guess that you missed that too.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Simple Girl:
This idea that the Egyptians depicted themselves as black still doesn't hold water with me. Like I said, why would they depict themselves as having reddish to reddish brown skin and call themselves the land of the blacks when there were much darker people to the south? I mean black is black. If they were a lighter skin tone than the people to the south,than they wouldn't have called themselves black. They clearly depicted the people to the south as having black skin.

Most scholars will agree with me on this. I don't care which way you try to interpret it, the Egyptians didn't see themselves as black or they would have shown it in their art.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
actually worse than Stormfront.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Simple Girl:
Why would Egyptians call themselves the land of the blacks when they depicted the people south of them as being much darker than they were? Wouldn't they more than likely refer to the people of the south as being the Land of the blacks before they would themselves?

Most Egyptian art depicts them as having reddish brown skin. Reddish brown is exactly the color that skin turns when it is dyed with henna. Henna is an effective sunblocker and the Egyptians used it to dye hair, nails and skin. If there were fair skinned people living in Egypt, henna would have been an ideal thing to use against the sun.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Originally posted in full on 08 December 2004 01:19 PM

The pages from Diop show seven usages of KM.t and km.t in words for
people.

. . . .

Diop didnt do the translation. The translation comes from two European
sources, one German the other French, they being
1. the Worterbuch der Agyptischen Sprache and
2. the Prolegomenes a letude de la religion egyptienne.

. . . .

The determinatives seated man and\or seated woman mean people.

. . . .

In direct literal translation km.t.nwt means black nation, where the root
km (black) is an adjective suffixed by t which makes km.t a feminine noun
whose meaning 'black nation' is indicated by the determinative nwt. Since
km.t.nwt is a noun it can't be an adjective referring to the color of soil since
no determinative for soil is given. When km.t.nwt is literally translated as the
black land, the word land can only mean 'country' in the sense of 'nation.'
If land in the sense of soil was meant, the word ta would precede km.t,
something I have yet to see in a mdw ntr text.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
Yes they are fanatics. they just hunt around for any and everything they can find to build up their pre concieved notions. Doesn't matter if it is accurate or not as long as they can somehow twist it into place. It is just wasted lives as none of this stuff will ever stick.

---

This is the same thing Eurocentrics do.
 

---

Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
That is not correct Betty. I have never met a historian who was not interested in the truth. Actually in terms of modern historians IF ANYTHING they would be inclined to error in the favor of blacks, i.e. PC. Besides these guys imply that they are ALL biased, that is a bit much.

You can believe anything if all you have to do is say all of the experts are liars.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Of course all of never said all the experts are liars as some experts in the matters may very well be misguided if not blatantly biased. You see, unlike YOU we don't presume that *all* experts say this or that. We are dealing with a dead language that's over 6 millennia old. Any expert is subject to mistakes and your problem is that you fail to realize that not all experts agree with each other let alone on this issue!

It's obvious that instead of actually disputing the linguistic findings you just sit there and whine about it like a silly child!



Come on 'professor' AmericanPatriot! Listen to ol' Uncle Sam!

 

---

Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
Lets be a bit more mature here. If you have experts who have different views post their papers in which they challenge those who do not.
I keep asking but I do not recieve.

Most of them agree Djehuti.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Again if they agree, then what is the exact basis of this agreement?? When it comes to scholarship, substance is outweighs any 'claims'. Though 'claims' are all you have.
 

---

Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
Post their articles and see. I am working on a long paper on the Comanche Empire or lack thereof in between posting here so if you want me to dig up the articles you'll have to wait. You need to rely more on Journal artiles and stop just looking for stuff to buttress already held views.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
All the proof text now buried under opinionated
troll replies. While we go to the primary source
they just blow air because they lack the skills
to recognize, read, comprehend, and analyze the
texts the AEs left on record for all time for
all to see.

None of the trolls has presented analysis of the
words or their context we've presented nor have
they presented contradictive primary documentation.

Why? Because they can't. They're running scared
and getting very desperate (so desperate they
deny all the alternate IDs they've used on this
forum claiming that listing them is name calling)

All they can do is whine and hope they bury our
facts under tons of whining posts. But they will
fail to do that.
 

---

Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sundjata:
^I just told you what that word was if you had any reading comprehension and it isn't associated with Km.t..

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
That is not correct Betty. I have never met a historian who was not interested in the truth. Actually in terms of modern historians IF ANYTHING they would be inclined to error in the favor of blacks, i.e. PC. Besides these guys imply that they are ALL biased, that is a bit much.

You can believe anything if all you have to do is say all of the experts are liars.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
Lets be a bit more mature here. If you have experts who have different views post their papers in which they challenge those who do not.
I keep asking but I do not recieve.

Most of them agree Djehuti.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bettyboo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
Lets be a bit more mature here. If you have experts who have different views post their papers in which they challenge those who do not.
I keep asking but I do not recieve.

Most of them agree Djehuti.

---

You have to ask why do they agree. Do they agree because it is facts; do they agree because they are biased and lying; do they owe an oath to the Smithsonian or other prominent institutions like the "National Geographic" entities; do they have an agenda. Just because people come to an agreement doesn't mean it is correct or it doesn't mean that it is correct based on agreed thoughts. I'm not surprise that Most or "many" agree since it makes the 'notion' stronger, and possibly causes the opposition to "look silly" or not taken seriously or to be overlooked. Whites are cunning you know.

---

Hey everyone

source please on "black people" instead of black land??
 

---

Posted by Bishop (Member # 16652) on :
 
Source please on black people?
 

---

Posted by Meti Sutn Anu (Member # 4547) on :
 
@Biship

Have you read this thread? This thread is not based on opinion but there is ample amounts of documentations by Europeans which show and prove that the word 'Kemet' does not have the word 'land, soil' or anything else that has to do with earth in it.

Please reread this thread and you will see the sources. Again, where is the word land in the word Kemet?

Kam Ta would be 'Black Land/Soil but not Kemet.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Correct! A concise explanation by Takruri and Wally in the last 2 pages of this thread alone. It was also given in a previous thread on the topic here! If you're looking for other sources try dictionaries on Ancient Egyptian language not necessarily Budge, but ones where precise grammar and vocubulary are conveyed!
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
And so that Takruri's valid points of this topic do not get lost under the 'usual' rhetoric...

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Originally posted 09 December 2004 04:09 PM

This is the glyph Ta, Gardiners N16

It means land and appears at the front of words like Ta Meri.


This is the glyph xAst, Gardiners N25

It means land and appears at the end of words like Khurru or Kush.

This is the glyph niwt, Gardiners O49

It means city, town, etc,, and appears at the end of the word KM.t.
Note that KM.t also appears with other determinatives and not just
only with nwt.


The problem enters with our concept of the word land which can mean
a parcel of land or a country or nation. The Kmtyw marked the distinction
because nwt never means a parcel of land, it always mean a crossroads
village town city nation, etc.

Please provide an example from a mdw ntr text where the nwt determinative
means soil. What hieroglyphic dictionary gives soil as the meaning of nwt
which is a glyph that depicts a crossroads not a field or a desert or some such?

Originally posted 10 December 2004 12:24 PM

Precisely why cannot mean black land in the sense of a
parcel of land which happens to be black in color. Nwt means crossroads,
village, town, city, nation. Hence logically means 'Black
nation' not 'black piece of land.'

Except in this instance of deliberate obfuscation, please show texts
where nwt is translated as 'land' instead of 'crossroads.' The dictionary
entry for nwt is village, town, city not land. The dictionary entries for t3
and smt are land.

Further, the codage system classes niwt under O (buildings) not in the
N (heaven earth and water) class where t3 and x3st are categorized.
Logic dictates that KM.t.nwt cannot mean 'black land' both according
to codage class and according to grammar where KM.t in KM.t.nwt is
indeed a feminine noun and is not an adjective. The name of a nation
is always a noun never an adjective.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Meti Sutn Anu:
@Biship

Have you read this thread? This thread is not based on opinion but there is ample amounts of documentations by Europeans which show and prove that the word 'Kemet' does not have the word 'land, soil' or anything else that has to do with earth in it.

Please reread this thread and you will see the sources. Again, where is the word land in the word Kemet?

Kam Ta would be 'Black Land/Soil but not Kemet.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishop:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Meti Sutn Anu:
@Biship

Have you read this thread? This thread is not based on opinion but there is ample amounts of documentations by Europeans which show and prove that the word 'Kemet' does not have the word 'land, soil' or anything else that has to do with earth in it.

Please reread this thread and you will see the sources. Again, where is the word land in the word Kemet?

Kam Ta would be 'Black Land/Soil but not Kemet.

---

Yes I have read this thread we were talking about this subject with some friends and they wanted some sources so thats why I asked.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
And so that Takruri's valid points of this topic do not get lost under the 'usual' rhetoric...

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Originally posted 09 December 2004 04:09 PM

This is the glyph Ta, Gardiners N16

It means land and appears at the front of words like Ta Meri.


This is the glyph xAst, Gardiners N25

It means land and appears at the end of words like Khurru or Kush.

This is the glyph niwt, Gardiners O49

It means city, town, etc,, and appears at the end of the word KM.t.
Note that KM.t also appears with other determinatives and not just
only with nwt.


The problem enters with our concept of the word land which can mean
a parcel of land or a country or nation. The Kmtyw marked the distinction
because nwt never means a parcel of land, it always mean a crossroads
village town city nation, etc.

Please provide an example from a mdw ntr text where the nwt determinative
means soil. What hieroglyphic dictionary gives soil as the meaning of nwt
which is a glyph that depicts a crossroads not a field or a desert or some such?

Originally posted 10 December 2004 12:24 PM

Precisely why cannot mean black land in the sense of a
parcel of land which happens to be black in color. Nwt means crossroads,
village, town, city, nation. Hence logically means 'Black
nation' not 'black piece of land.'

Except in this instance of deliberate obfuscation, please show texts
where nwt is translated as 'land' instead of 'crossroads.' The dictionary
entry for nwt is village, town, city not land. The dictionary entries for t3
and smt are land.

Further, the codage system classes niwt under O (buildings) not in the
N (heaven earth and water) class where t3 and x3st are categorized.
Logic dictates that KM.t.nwt cannot mean 'black land' both according
to codage class and according to grammar where KM.t in KM.t.nwt is
indeed a feminine noun and is not an adjective. The name of a nation
is always a noun never an adjective.

---

---

Exactly, for example look at how 'black cow' is written on budge's dictionary (and budge gives the same interpretation).And also look at how 'Kemet' with a people determinative is written on medu neter, one cannot escape 'black people' as the correct reading as the logic for the two words is completely the same.

Eurocentrists simply throw out the logic.

PS: How do you post a picture on ES ? I want to post some medu neter pictures.

Thanks.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ you find the url code of an of a picture and put it between [img](url)[img] <---- as so. You have some images scanned into your computer you may need to upload them on an online pic site like photobucket or tinypic etc.
 

---

Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
Betty, If a person does not agree with the top scholars in a field ALL THEY HAVE LEFT is to call them a biased liar. It is the weakest argument under the sun and it is dishonest.

When someone here uaes thjat argument what we have is not JUST a poorly educated person but a flawed character as well.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ And which 'top scholar' are you speaking of??

Also, where did any of us call anyone a "liar"??

All we did was demonstrate through a direct translation of the Mdu-neter itself what Kmt means!

By the way, we are still waiting for your 'good ol' boys' network in Memphis to give a response about the above findings.
 

---

Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
the Egyptians divided their land between the lush Nile Valley, which they called Kemet (the black land) in reference to it's rich alluvial soil, and the desert, called deshret (the red land)."
Page 4

Tutankhamun's Armies
John Coleman Darnell and Colleen Manassa

Darnell PHD Yale Near Eastern Languages
Manassa Yale Professor
of Egyptology

Do we need to keep up this high school lesson or do you guys think it is time for you to lear how to do actual resaerch?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Memphis folds said black land, call them, I did. Everyone says that except some ill educated people on this board.

You guys have no ability to interpret primary sources, you have demonstrated that time and time again. You further refuse to back up your points with top scholars. It is a total joke.
 

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Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 
Every proud nation has a word that represents their "nation", or "community", km.t is THAT word for AE.

What gives this away is clear. When speaking of the "land" they mainly inhabited, the glyph for this was Ta Meri ("Beloved LAND") in which the symbol for land (strip with 3 dots underneath) is apparent.

For Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt again, the glyphs for " land " are apparent.

For Dsrt, or "the Red Land", you find the ibis which represents "red" along with the symbol for "foreign" or "mountainous" land here .


In each of the glyphs above, there is a clear reference to the land they occupied, or that of which was occupied by foreigners (thus undesirable). In the glyph for Km.t no such thing is found.

Therefore, it seems Km.t clearly would represent that of a modern day flag, in which it embodies all things desirable for it's nation , or community , which would included it's majority black people, for which the color black epitomized all of the above, and is either not at all, or not just a reference to soil. The color black itself can clearly be seen to be held in high regard as many AE gods were painted in that color. The comparison to other Mdu Ntr words makes this an easy thing to see.

Words like these are found throughout Africa and African people. "Abantu" as I know it from southern Africa, represents the same thing, while not explicitally referring to anything black. It stands for "community", or "our community", or "inclusiveness/love for our communities" for which obvious foreigners (i.e. Whites, Indians, Arabs) would not be included. The word, much like Km.t, has come to be dumbed down (to a supposed language family) and corrupted (to mean something derogatory towards the very people who created it) by foreigners, and thus shares MANY similarities.

If someone can find a glyph that clearly represents the AE nation besides the unification of the two lands under one pharoah, please provide.
 

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Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
You/ll need to show where Egyptologists agree with that Gaul. So far every one I have found say it means 'black land.' That is clearly the standard today.
 

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Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
You/ll need to show where Egyptologists agree with that Gaul. So far every one I have found say it means 'black land.' That is clearly the standard today.

---

The fact that you have been shown the fallacy of "black land/soil" in 10 different ways in all degrees of inculcation, yet still only choose to parrot those with an obvious agenda, or are simply too lazy to actually know what they preach tells all.

You've been asked this already, but I'll admonish anyone to ignore you until you can show us where these "Egyptologist" you choose to parrot get their idea of "black soil" from in the glyph for km.t. You should be ignored until you can provide this specific information and evidence from your cracker feeders...(no pun).

What specifically represents "black soil" in Km.t? Invite your experts to this discussion.
 

---

Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
The Gaul

Patriot can't invite experts because he has no leeway with anyone close to the Language of Ancient Egypt. There is more then enough evidence for people to look up for themselves and find the answers they seek.

So I will second your idea about TAP. Please show us what letter in KM.T means land. Failure to do this you will be ignored and no one should comment on you again.

Peace
 

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Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
You guys simply have no clue of what conctitutes good scholarship. Don't give me this cracker crap. i am asking you to do what every graduate class in every university in the world would ask you to do. There is a professional way to present information and it is more than just saying that people who disagree with you are liars.

You guys have presented no evidence King. Nobody on this site is a specialist in the ancient egyptian language. It is clear that most of you have no ability to handle primary soruce information and you have no interest in learning.
You have demonstrated that lack of ability to handle information in a scholarly manner in case after case after case.

I am not interested in what Gaul thinks about AE language, he is not a specialist. I am interested in what top eyptologists and language eperts say. What they clearly say is that Kemet means black land, that is the accepted standard today.
 

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Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
 
...a lot of folks are confused as to how words in different languages are related; it isn't enough that the words are similar in spelling, they must also be similar in their meanings:

Example A) Let us first look at the word "Ran" as it appears in 5 languages:

1) Mdu Ntr: Ran = "Name"
2) Coptic: Ran = "Name"
3) Yoruba: Ran = "Name"
4) English: Ran = past tense of "Run"; a word of motion
5) Japanese: Ran = "chaos"

Clearly, the first three African words are not only similar in meaning, but are exact matches! - the English and Japanese words are not related to the African words or to each other.

Example B) Now, let us examine the words for Black or Negro in several languages.

1) Mdu Ntr: eKame = "Black/Negro"
2) Coptic: ouKame = "Black/Negro"
3) French: le Nègre = "the Negro"
4) Spanish: el Negro = "the Negro"

One can readily see how the words used to express a concept differ between the African languages and that of the Romance languages...

Now, let us look at the incorrect assessment that "Kmt" (Black) is related to the Berber word "Akham" (home); ie, how is the word "Black" similar to the word "home?" Simple, it isn't...

1) Berber: Akham = "home"
2) Mdu Ntr: Ekham = "Black"
3) Coptic: OuKham = "a Black (person)"
Obviously, there is no correspondence between the Mdu Ntr and Berber in regards to the word "Kmt."

Simple Examples from the Mdu Ntr:
Res = "south" - Resu = "southerners"
Tawi = "Two Lands" - Tawiu = "Two Landers"
TaMeri = "My Beloved Land" - Tameriu = "My Beloved Landers"
Kem = "Black" - Kemu = "Blacks"

Because the Ancient Egyptians referred to themselves as "Kemu" or Blacks is an irrefutable fact and is why modern 'revisionists' like to ignor this significant fact and would rather harp on "Keme.t" or "Keme.tiou" which is more easily 'toyed' with than the more absolute word of "Kemu"...
===
Another method, used principally by detractors, is to believe, or pretend to believe that the Ancient Egyptian language is 'dead', as it is supposedly not a vernacular language, and that, unlike every other language on earth, it is mysterious and unknowable: however, the reality is that Ancient Egyptian is modern Coptic and is very much alive and well

The following is taken from
A SHORT ENGLISH-COPTIC CLASSIFIED VOCABULARY
WITH ILLUSTRATIVE SENTENCES...

39. Colour
>to be black kmom kem*

neffw etolm sesEt eukem nthe n henabooke.
His curly hair streams out, being black as ravens.

Anok ang ouKame (Coptic bible; Song of Solomon) = I am Black
I am Black...(KJV bible, Song of Solomon)


>to be white oubash ouobsh*

ainau eupugy m moou noc esouobash Nve N ouxiwn.
I saw a great fountain of water, white as snow.

>to be red trosh torosh*, troshresh treshrwsh*

auw afei ebol Nci ouhto eftreshrwsh.
And a red horse came forth.

Gold
noub = gold
P^hamnoub = goldsmith
ouaNouba = Nubian
NaNouba = Nubians
OuaNouba = Wa.Nuba (wah.Noo.bah) = "One Nuba"...
The Nuba peoples who live in the geographical center of Sudan are the largest of many groups in Northern Sudan and are the descendants of the peoples of the Kush kingdom of the 8th century. They form a collection of dozens of different ethnic groups with different cultures and languages.
....
 

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Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
Wally, top scholars are not confused. You need to do more research into why they feel the way they do. Here is the problem. Their views carry the day in any field of history. Someone brought up Bernal on another thread. Bernal lost the argument to Lefkowitz because he was unable to convince classical scholars his points were correct. Same with this, it is your job to convince them, not the other way around. The problem you have is that since you are not a specialist they probably would not listen to you anyway.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Indeed. If by any chance, Pat did call up his 'friends' in Memphis, he simply just asked them what Kmt meant. I seriously doubt he further inquired about the actual etymology or where the word for 'land' is found in the term.

Again, this is called scholarly debate. Everyone, scholars and laymen alike, have the right to challenge the authority of a scholar especially if there is any logical inconsistency.

Right now what has been discussed in this thread still stands. Unless Pat can bring his 'expert' friends here or cite an actual correspondence via email or something disputing these valid linguistic finds, then the only thing his friends in Memphis offer-- like Pat-- is mere opinion.
 

---

Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
Laymen can have an opinion, they cannot challenge. You cannot use pop history in a scholarly paper.
I asked you to call them as well. Besides that was not the only source I posted. You have posted none because there is none.
I just had a kid write a paper about the historiography of the Cherokee. he cannot use sources that are not noted scholars, i.e. historians.
If you want to establish more than opinion Djehuti then post some journal articles from major egyptologists who agree with you view. About six of them would give you a compelling case. The problem you have is you will not find any.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:

Laymen can have an opinion, they cannot challenge. You cannot use pop history in a scholarly paper..

---

quote:

---

..I asked you to call them as well. Besides that was not the only source I posted. You have posted none because there is none...

---

quote:

---

I just had a kid write a paper about the historiography of the Cherokee. he cannot use sources that are not noted scholars, i.e. historians. If you want to establish more than opinion Djehuti then post some journal articles from major egyptologists who agree with you view. About six of them would give you a compelling case. The problem you have is you will not find any.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:

The argument is settled Djehuti and further laymen do not have an impact on scholarship...

---

quote:

---

..You simply lack the skills to do the kind of neccessary research. Laymen can publish what we call pop history but it is never included in the accepted body of scholarship...

---

quote:

---

Your ideas on african influence on Greece are simply crazy. You cannot find nor will you ever produce scholarly material to back that position up.

---

You realize that we produce scholarly material and evidence every day about African influence on Greece, or does your senile mind still function??!
 

---

Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
Wally and Tukruri have no portfolio. alot of arrogance for a group of unlettered guys to claim anyone is paying attention to them.

You do not produce evidence for your wacky Greece views, bot a scrap. For one thing I have never seen you produce a scholarly work from a single Greek historian supporting your view.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ LOL @ "portfolio".

They merely cite what is already known about Egyptian language!

The below is all they need!

quote:

---

This is the glyph Ta, Gardiners N16

It means land and appears at the front of words like Ta Meri.


This is the glyph xAst, Gardiners N25

It means land and appears at the end of words like Khurru or Kush.

This is the glyph niwt, Gardiners O49

It means city, town, etc,, and appears at the end of the word KM.t.
Note that KM.t also appears with other determinatives and not just
only with nwt.


The problem enters with our concept of the word land which can mean
a parcel of land or a country or nation. The Kmtyw marked the distinction
because nwt never means a parcel of land, it always mean a crossroads
village town city nation, etc.

Please provide an example from a mdw ntr text where the nwt determinative
means soil. What hieroglyphic dictionary gives soil as the meaning of nwt
which is a glyph that depicts a crossroads not a field or a desert or some such?

Originally posted 10 December 2004 12:24 PM

Precisely why cannot mean black land in the sense of a
parcel of land which happens to be black in color. Nwt means crossroads,
village, town, city, nation. Hence logically means 'Black
nation' not 'black piece of land.'

Except in this instance of deliberate obfuscation, please show texts
where nwt is translated as 'land' instead of 'crossroads.' The dictionary
entry for nwt is village, town, city not land. The dictionary entries for t3
and smt are land.

Further, the codage system classes niwt under O (buildings) not in the
N (heaven earth and water) class where t3 and x3st are categorized.
Logic dictates that KM.t.nwt cannot mean 'black land' both according
to codage class and according to grammar where KM.t in KM.t.nwt is
indeed a feminine noun and is not an adjective. The name of a nation
is always a noun never an adjective.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
The argument is over. Egyptologists do not agree with you, that is enough for me.
There is no worse combination than ignorance combined with arrogance. If you cannot post the scholars you shut up.

---

quote:

---

KEMET means black land, period

---

I have been keeping up with this forum and other forums who believe as you do. I've reviewed the information on this site and that on others but it is this site where the word has actually been broken down in terms that a baby should be able to understand. These other sites tell you that it means back land/soil but doesn't explain how and why it means black soil/land.

I would like for you to explain in details how the word Kemet means 'black land/soil'. I'm open to truth and if what has been shown here isn't the truth that I urge you to prove otherwise. I ask though that you break it down from your understanding being that it is a point of view that you accept as reality. Surely you will not accept anything as fact unless you have a deep understanding of it. Having accepted 'black land/soil' as Kemet from these scholars you mention, sure you can show me where land can be found in this word. If you cannot show this then what is your debate?

Thank you in advance.
 

---

Posted by Meti Sutn Anu (Member # 4547) on :
 
O by the way, I will not get into a debate with you on 'Kemet' given the fact that I'm no where on the level of these scholars on this subject. I just want to hear what you have to say as proof because it doesn't take a rocket scientist to analysis content based on ancient documentations vs. modern documentations.

p.s. please don't try to show rock art of other Africans which show different cultural hair styles with feathers and dress codes. That does not prove or disprove whether the Egyptians would have called their nation and people 'black'. It just proves that Egypt had battles with their neighboring Africans.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
The problem with Pat (other than his usual racist bias) is a logical fallacy known as 'appeal to authority'. Not only is it known that even experts can be wrong, but the fact that he generalises and says 'all' Egyptologists disagree is also far from the truth.

I think King is right-- we should just ignore the nutty professor. He keeps talking about the 'experts' yet he cites nothing that actually refutes the linguistics we have demonstrated.
 

---

Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
You dim wits have not demonstrated anything. The appeal to authority is what academic discourse is based on. You are not going to research the question because of the answer you would get.
This is just a racist feeble attempt to prop up a group of people who were throwing spears at the British in 1867. It is a disgusting display of ignorance from people who should know better.
The only consolation is that it is going nowhere.
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Actually Mr. Pat all you have to do is realize that everything posted here is ACTUALLY based on EUROPEAN linguistic analysis of Egyptian hieroglyphs. They are not made up as you suggest.

Case in point:

quote:

---

This is the glyph Ta, Gardiners N16

It means land and appears at the front of words like Ta Meri.


This is the glyph xAst, Gardiners N25

It means land and appears at the end of words like Khurru or Kush.

This is the glyph niwt, Gardiners O49

It means city, town, etc,, and appears at the end of the word KM.t.
Note that KM.t also appears with other determinatives and not just
only with nwt.


The problem enters with our concept of the word land which can mean
a parcel of land or a country or nation. The Kmtyw marked the distinction
because nwt never means a parcel of land, it always mean a crossroads
village town city nation, etc.

Please provide an example from a mdw ntr text where the nwt determinative
means soil. What hieroglyphic dictionary gives soil as the meaning of nwt
which is a glyph that depicts a crossroads not a field or a desert or some such?

Originally posted 10 December 2004 12:24 PM

Precisely why cannot mean black land in the sense of a
parcel of land which happens to be black in color. Nwt means crossroads,
village, town, city, nation. Hence logically means 'Black
nation' not 'black piece of land.'

Except in this instance of deliberate obfuscation, please show texts
where nwt is translated as 'land' instead of 'crossroads.' The dictionary
entry for nwt is village, town, city not land. The dictionary entries for t3
and smt are land.

Further, the codage system classes niwt under O (buildings) not in the
N (heaven earth and water) class where t3 and x3st are categorized.
Logic dictates that KM.t.nwt cannot mean 'black land' both according
to codage class and according to grammar where KM.t in KM.t.nwt is
indeed a feminine noun and is not an adjective. The name of a nation
is always a noun never an adjective.

---

quote:

---

The English Egyptologist, Sir Alan Gardiner, arranged the signs into a number of sections in order to aid categorisation. His sign list is fairly complete, and accepted by most Egyptologists.

---

quote:

---

Gardiner's Sign List is a list of common Egyptian hieroglyphs compiled by Sir Alan Gardiner. It is considered a standard reference in the study of Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs.

Gardiner lists only the most common forms of Egyptian hieroglyphs, but he includes extensive subcategories, and also both vertical and horizontal forms for many hieroglyphs. He includes size-variation forms to aid with the reading of hieroglyphs in running blocks of text. (The Budge Reference has about 1000 hieroglyphs listed in 50 pages, but with no size varieties.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by KING:
Why are people still arguing with Patriot?

Until he "POSTS" what KM.T means and states where in those letters are the words for land, he should just be ignored.

Peace

---

quote:

---

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:54:40 -0400 (EDT)
To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk
From: Ogden Goelet <og1@is3.nyu.edu>
Subject: AEL The Meaning of KMT

Dear Listers,

I have an article on the meaning of kmt appearing in Prof.
Baruch Levine's Festschrift which should appear this summer(?) or early in
the fall.

The word means "the Black Land," refering most likely to the
color of the soil in the fertile Nile Valley. In essence the word might be
best described as a word of contrast. In all periods, the primary contrast
implied is dSrt "the Red Land" or the desert; secondarily (and not very
frequently) it is a word used to contrast Egypt with the rest of the world.
In this latter sense, it is occasionally found in parallel with tA-mry "the
Beloved Land," both terms appearing with the city-sign (O 49) as a
determinative. The word tA-mry will sometimes be written with two
city-signs, most certainly as a reference to Upper and Lower Egypt.

In all periods, however, when the Egyptians wanted to refer
to their country, the preferred terms were simply tA "the Land" or tAwy "the
Two Lands." Even (perhaps especially) in royal titularies this is so, kmt
rarely appearing in such contexts. Kmt will occasionally be used as the
official name for Egypt, as it does, for instance, in the Treaty between R.
II and Hattusili III of Hatti. In the Hymns to Sesostris III, kmt is twice
followed by a seated man and a seated woman determinative and the plural
determinative. In this case it most likely is to be identified as "Egypt"
as a collective of peoples. It is contrasted even there with dSrt in a
similar manner. I believe there is only one other text in which kmt is used
in this sense.

Since the latter sense of the word kmt was so rare,
Shakespeare was stretching it a bit when he had Cleopatra saying her last
words: "I am dying Egypt . . ." Incidentally, Lyttle, a Union general
killed at the Battle of Chickamaugua, was famous, both North and South, for
a poem with that title, and news of his death was a cause for mourning on
both sides. I would be most grateful for a text of that poem, if anyone out
there would know where I could find it.

Kmt was sometimes used in compound expressions such as tA n
kmt "the land of Egypt," rmT n kmt "an Egyptian," and r n kmt "the Egyptian
language."

The word kmt has an interesting literary usage as a word for
the land of the living in the Harper's songs, as in the poignant phrase "No
man may tarry in Egypt," viz. everyone eventually comes up to here (the
desert burial area where the text is written) when they die. This same
usage appears once in the Coptic version of the Apothegma Patrum, showing
how persistent the association of kmt with the Nile Valley was.

My article, however, only covers up to the end of the Middle
Kingdom, with only some reference to the later periods, a subject which I
hope to pursue in another article later on.

Ogden Goelet

---

quote:

---

Kmt was sometimes used in compound expressions such as tA n
kmt "the land of Egypt," rmT n kmt "an Egyptian," and r n kmt "the Egyptian
language."

---

quote:

---

Crust of the bisquit:

• primary documentaion exists for KM.t as a community,
  ethnonym, and as an adjective for body parts
• no primary documentation exists connecting the word
  km.t and any AEL word for land/soil, to my knowledge.

Having issued this challenge years ago without it
ever being taken up I again request any layman or
professional to produce any AE primary contextual
documentation where land/soil is next to the word
km.t

---

Everything else is nonsense. Until one, just one,
shred of valid evidence in the form of contextual
primary documentation written by the Ancient
Egyptians themselves is shown with km.t affixed
to a glyph or word for land is presented then the
fact remains there is no expression 'Black Land'
in the Pharaonic Egyptian Language, bottom line.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 





 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
From Erman and Grapow's Wörterbuch der ägyptischen Sprache Vol 5






 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
This is the glyph Ta, Gardiners N16

It means land and appears at the front of words like Ta Meri.


This is the glyph xAst, Gardiners N25

It means land and appears at the end of words like Khurru or Kush.

This is the glyph niwt, Gardiners O49

It means city, town, etc,, and appears at the end of the word KM.t.
Note that KM.t can appear with other determinatives not just
only with nwt.


The problem enters with our concept of the word land which can mean
a parcel of land or a country or nation. The Kmtyw marked the distinction
because nwt never means a parcel of land, it always mean a crossroads
village town city nation, etc.

Please provide an example from a mdw ntr text where the nwt determinative
means soil. What hieroglyphic dictionary gives soil as the meaning of nwt
which is a glyph that depicts a crossroads not a field or a desert or some such?


Precisely why cannot mean black land in the sense of a
parcel of land which happens to be black in color. Nwt means crossroads,
village, town, city, nation. Hence logically means 'Black
nation' not 'black piece of land.'

Except in this instance of deliberate obfuscation, please show texts
where nwt is translated as 'land' instead of 'crossroads.' The dictionary
entry for nwt is village, town, city not land. The dictionary entries for t3
and smt are land.

Further, the codage system classes niwt under O (buildings) not in the
N (heaven earth and water) class where t3 and x3st are categorized.
Logic dictates that KM.t.nwt cannot mean 'black land' both according
to codage class and according to grammar where KM.t in KM.t.nwt is
indeed a feminine noun and is not an adjective. The name of a nation
is always a noun never an adjective.


Transliteration and translation of the 1st 5 columns
of the Book of Gates the Gate of Teka Hra vignette 30


CAPS = multi-literal phonogram;
{ } = determinative;
(+) = unvoiced phonetic compliment;
. = suffix


Col1: å-n HRW n nn (+n+n)
[(interogative) Heru to these:

Col2: HQA{plural} t-w RA
["Subjects, ye (of) Ra.

Col3: å-m{plural}.w DWA{pr}.t
[Dwellers (in) netherworld.

Col4: k-m.t{nwt} d-sh-r.t{nwt} AKH
[Black community. Red community.

Col5: (+kh){scroll} n t-n{plural} HQA.w{plural} RA
[Beatification to ye subjects (of) Ra!






The "four types" -- or better, the "subjects of Ra" -- scene depicts the sun in
the 5th night hour with Heru addressing the dead. He verbally divides them
into the blacks (Nile Valley folk, i.e., Egyptians and Nehesis) under his protection,
and the reds (folk dwelling east or west of the Nile) under Sekhet's protection.


Heru is addressing all four types, first with a general intro
to the entire party of the afterlife dead (who died that day) still
in their shrouds. He "beatifies" them, reanimates them with
"spirit" (breath/wind), and releases them from their shrouds.
Then after all that he addresses each group in turn speaking
of the origins of their creation and assigning their "patron" deity.
First the RT RMTW and then in from sunrise to sunset order the
AAMW, NHHSW, and TMHHW .

The NWT ideogram means neither 'people' nor 'land.' This has
been explained a few times already and there's a post in the
archive with the subject header "KMT NWT" detailing this. The
glyph depicts a crossroads indicating a village or city, i.e. a
settlement or habitation. thus the use of it to mean 'community'
in its broad application for the corpus of the dead. It always
appears as the determinative following the name of a city.

Copyright © March 2004 al~Takruri. All rights reserved.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Originally posted by astenb on 17 June, 2009 03:11 PM


Looking at the glyphs themselves tells you what IS simple IS. I am unable to read mdw ntr, I can still follow the post and understand the concept. ...

In any case
This Egyptologist [hosted by the University of Cambridge]
Dr Ossama Abdel Maguid - The director of the Nubian Museum, Aswan, Egypt, a specialist in the archaeology of Egypt, Nubia and Sudan:

States that the "KEMET" or "Black Land" represents both "Egypt AND Nubia" [0:22] and it is also a description of the "PEOPLE THEMSELVES" [0:53]. This is the first thing he clarifies in this lecture. He sets the record straight in the first 60 seconds of a lecture over 100 minutes.

...
 

---

Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
Takruri, How is that pan african army coming?
You will not research the experts here because you know the result of that proper effort. Thus, squak all you want. Kemet is black land, that is the standard ay Yale, Memphis etc and nothing you say is going to change that.

Those guys do not even know you exist.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Go toy with the fools who seek your acceptance
and approval, for I continue to post facts for
those willing to learn.

You fear the world seeing actual AEL examples that
prove KM.t{nwt} means Black Community so you flood
the thread with banalities to hide and bury what
frightens
you to no end. But you will not succeed. We will block
off the first and last posts of each page so that surfers
immediately see what you cannot put under.
 

---

Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
Betty, If a person does not agree with the top scholars in a field ALL THEY HAVE LEFT is to call them a biased liar. It is the weakest argument under the sun and it is dishonest.

When someone here uaes thjat argument what we have is not JUST a poorly educated person but a flawed character as well.

---

quote:

---

The ACCEPTED definition of Kemet is black land, in opposition to the red land of the desert. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
The argument is over. Egyptologists do not agree with you, that is enough for me.
There is no worse combination than ignorance combined with arrogance. If you cannot post the scholars you shut up.

KEMET means black land, period.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
You guys are all fools chasing Pat's ding-a-ling.
The goal is not to convince Pat or keep catering
to him as if he's the credential certifier. One
thing and one thing only settles this whole issue:

quote:

---

Crust of the bisquit:

• primary documentaion exists for KM.t as a community,
  ethnonym, and as an adjective for body parts
• no primary documentation exists connecting the word
  km.t and any AEL word for land/soil, to my knowledge.

Having issued this challenge years ago without it
ever being taken up I again request any layman or
professional to produce any AE primary contextual
documentation where land/soil is next to the word
km.t

---

Everything else is nonsense. Until one, just one,
shred of valid evidence in the form of contextual
primary documentation written by the Ancient
Egyptians themselves is shown with km.t affixed
to a glyph or word for land is presented then the
fact remains there is no expression 'Black Land'
in the Pharaonic Egyptian Language, bottom line.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
Doug, You are wrong because you are making assumptions you do not understand. Instaed of getting into an argument with scholars that know vastly more than you it is best to study their work. History seems easy to people but it is a very very complex and difficult subject. Things are not always what they seem by any means.

Getting on her and telling me over and over it is black people is not going to change the reality. The ACCEPTED definition of Kemet is black land, in opposition to the red land of the desert.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
You guys are all fools chasing Pat's ding-a-ling.
The goal is not to convince Pat or keep catering
to him as if he's the credential certifier. One
thing and one thing only settles this whole issue:

quote:

---

Crust of the bisquit:

• primary documentaion exists for KM.t as a community,
  ethnonym, and as an adjective for body parts
• no primary documentation exists connecting the word
  km.t and any AEL word for land/soil, to my knowledge.

Having issued this challenge years ago without it
ever being taken up I again request any layman or
professional to produce any AE primary contextual
documentation where land/soil is next to the word
km.t

---

Everything else is nonsense. Until one, just one,
shred of valid evidence in the form of contextual
primary documentation written by the Ancient
Egyptians themselves is shown with km.t affixed
to a glyph or word for land is presented then the
fact remains there is no expression 'Black Land'
in the Pharaonic Egyptian Language, bottom line.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:

You dim wits have not demonstrated anything. The appeal to authority is what academic discourse is based on...

---

quote:

---

...You are not going to research the question because of the answer you would get...

---

quote:

---

This is just a racist feeble attempt to prop up a group of people who were throwing spears at the British in 1867. It is a disgusting display of ignorance from people who should know better...

---

As usual your accusation of 'racism' is just mere projection of your own problem.

And as far as a group of people throwing spears, this would include the Egyptians themselves...



A black African people who built the earliest and most sophisticated civilization in ancient times long before the 'British' even existed.

Now..

quote:

---

The only consolation is that it is going nowhere.

---

Nope. YOUR argument is going nowhere and has never been anywhere.
 

---

Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
again djehuti, you are not qualified to make those judgements. Either present the journal articles, the ones that do not exist, or drop the subject. If I have a choice between an Egyptologist from Yale or you the choice is clear. You have no portfolio and simply pigheadedly refuse to follow historiographic procedure. You just sound like a num skull.
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
I am not a linguist Doug so I depend on the views of people that are and those people say it is "black land." I am not going to debate you doug, it would be the blind leading the blind. You have to sustain your point by depending on the scholars. You people amaze me. If the scholars agreed with you you would be crowing about it all day but since they do not you back peddle.

It is not a matter of europeans and their views.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
again djehuti, you are not qualified to make those judgements. Either present the journal articles, the ones that do not exist, or drop the subject. If I have a choice between an Egyptologist from Yale or you the choice is clear. You have no portfolio and simply pigheadedly refuse to follow historiographic procedure. You just sound like a num skull.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
You guys are all fools chasing Pat's ding-a-ling.
The goal is not to convince Pat or keep catering
to him as if he's the credential certifier. One
thing and one thing only settles this whole issue:

quote:

---

Crust of the bisquit:

• primary documentaion exists for KM.t as a community,
  ethnonym, and as an adjective for body parts
• no primary documentation exists connecting the word
  km.t and any AEL word for land/soil, to my knowledge.

Having issued this challenge years ago without it
ever being taken up I again request any layman or
professional to produce any AE primary contextual
documentation where land/soil is next to the word
km.t

---

Everything else is nonsense. Until one, just one,
shred of valid evidence in the form of contextual
primary documentation written by the Ancient
Egyptians themselves is shown with km.t affixed
to a glyph or word for land is presented then the
fact remains there is no expression 'Black Land'
in the Pharaonic Egyptian Language, bottom line.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by KING:
What I don't understand is that people are still debating Patriot when they should be ignoring him until he shows where in KM.T is the word for land?

People just ignore him until he finally shows where the Land is in KM.T.

Peace

---

OMG king you even stir up and act like a child in here. If he did show you, or if he has, you would still miss it as you're blind
 

---

Posted by Meti Sutn Anu (Member # 4547) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
You dim wits have not demonstrated anything. The appeal to authority is what academic discourse is based on. You are not going to research the question because of the answer you would get.
This is just a racist feeble attempt to prop up a group of people who were throwing spears at the British in 1867. It is a disgusting display of ignorance from people who should know better.
The only consolation is that it is going nowhere.

---

quote:

---

You dim wits have not demonstrated anything. The appeal to authority is what academic discourse is based on.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
bull **** Doug. I am a scholar, or at least it pays my bills. Now look, cut the crap. Get off your lazy butt and go to the nearest university and ask the first history professor you can find about the historiographic method.

You may be too ignorant to educate. the argument is outlined by showing where the top scholars agree and disagree. Nobody gives a rats ass what you think, you have no portfolio.

---

quote:

---

1. Slow to learn or understand; obtuse.
2. Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes.
3. Marked by a lack of intelligence or care; foolish or careless: a stupid mistake.
4. Dazed, stunned, or stupefied.
5. Pointless; worthless: a stupid job.

---

http://www.answers.com/topic/stupid

All of which apply to you. You refuse to learn, make poor decisions on interacting in threads, show carelessness in your replies and act dazed and stunned when presented with facts you cannot refute, all of which proves your posts as pointless and worthless.

Thank you very much and have a nice day.
 

---

Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Ayisha

You have very little knowledge. If you think I am wrong then tell me Where In Km.T is the word for land.

It seems no matter how much time passes you are still lovin me. You sure can't help but comment when I post.

Peace
 

---

Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
KING, The view of top scholars all give the definition as land. You need to present scholarly articles backing up your view. If you are correct that should not be hard to do.
 

---

Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
LOL! You were done when you started because you never had anything to say to begin with.

You call yourself a scholar yet haven't produced one inch of scholarship.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
KING, The view of top scholars all give the definition as land. You need to present scholarly articles backing up your view. If you are correct that should not be hard to do.

---

quote:

---

Main Entry:
1lit·er·al Listen to the pronunciation of 1literal
Pronunciation:
\ˈli-t(ə-)rəl\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Middle English, from Middle French, from Medieval Latin litteralis, from Latin, of a letter, from littera letter
Date:
14th century

1 a: according with the letter of the scriptures b: adhering to fact or to the ordinary construction or primary meaning of a term or expression : actual <liberty in the literal sense is impossible — B. N. Cardozo> c: free from exaggeration or embellishment <the literal truth> d: characterized by a concern mainly with facts <a very literal man>

2: of, relating to, or expressed in letters
3: reproduced word for word : exact, verbatim <a literal translation>

---

quote:

---

Main Entry:
1para·phrase Listen to the pronunciation of 1paraphrase
Pronunciation:
\ˈper-ə-ˌfrāz,ˈpa-rə-\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle French, from Latin paraphrasis, from Greek, from paraphrazein to paraphrase, from para- + phrazein to point out
Date:
1548

1 : a restatement of a text, passage, or work giving the meaning in another form

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
look brainless, I am losing patience with you. A scholar uses the historiograpic method to examine arguments to try to arrive at the best conclusion possible. What is about this concept that you cannot understand? I honestly do not understand how you get up in the morning and put your pants on.

Let me make it simple. It is not about YOU presenting facts. You do not have the skills to use facts in that way. You present the arguments of top scholars WHO DO have the skills.

When the kemet issue came up I looked to see how top scholars in that field treated the issue. If they had said it was 'black people' then it would have been black people....they did not. That is the way you handle these issues.

Thus Doug, it is your job, in line with good historiography, to show what top scholars think and frankly YOU SHOULD NOT CARE IF IT IS BLACK LAND OR PEOPLE.

---

I know this is directed toward Doug, but I've been asking for information as to which scholars are you talking about that has undeniable proof that the word KM.T has the word[s] 'Land/Soil' in it.

So what I've been asking is - can I see this information that you speak so highly of which identifies the word 'Land/Soil' in the word KM.T ... its really that simple. All of the rambling doesn't do anyone any good so lets try it again. Can I have the information that will debunk everything that has been written on this forum in regards to the word KM.T. If you have this information and you feel confident in it as you say you feel then this request shouldn't be a problem.

You don't have to debate - let them debate through their literature. Just post how they found that the word KM.T has land/soil in it.
 

---

Posted by Meti Sutn Anu (Member # 4547) on :
 
My last post is riddle with request so anyone who comes to this forum seeking an answer will see that you have willfully denied information that suggest you and your scholars have a legitimate claim if my request remains unanswered. This question wasn't asked by someone who has the knowledge that any of these posters have and I've been objective in the matter so without a proper explanation based upon my question, you have given up the rights to calling yourself and those whom you call scholars; scholars.

You cannot call yourself a scholar without scholarly information that provides answers to the foundation from which you stand upon. You haven't even given adequate proof to so-called intelligent racist who depends upon your responses. So again - information please!!!
 

---

Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
No , you are wrong. A scholar does not have all of the answers, scholars seek the answers. If you go to college in any country in the world you will find in place a system for seeking the truth. That system starts with historiography.
The pulling together the views of the top people in the field to arrive at the best conclusion possible. That is why in the typical college graduate level class you will often be asked to write a 20-40 page paper comparing the views and arguments of top historians.

What you find on this board is mostly nonsense. Most of these guys have put together a position, often from talking to each other. It is as far removed from scholarship you can get. They are ideologues and their black focused views have to be defended at all costs. If I asked them to do scholarship on something that supported their views they would do it quickly. They are very much like religious fanatics in that their dogma is more important than truth.
In reality the world is not watching and they are the stars of egyptsearch and for many of them that is good enough.
 

---

Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
 
Isn't there some debate as to the actual meaning of the symbol used for black? The stairstep symbol. It seems like I read somewhere that it could also mean the limit or end of something. Perhaps it meant the limit of where they resided was along the black soil of the Nile and no further as to beyond the black soil and into the red desert?
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Learn mdr ntjr and remove ignorance
It's not a stairstep it's crocodile scales
(some say it's charcoal -- totally charred wood).

Ain'tcha evuh seed a Nile croc croc Crocodile? Black baby black.

Black as charcoal. Black as KM.t{nwt}. The Black Community, the Black Nation.

Tain't nuthin' evuh gunna chainj dat no
matter how times yo mind keeps goin'
thru Them Changes Buddy gal.

And yeah, KM also means the everluvin' livin' END
as in complete, fulfilled, the ultimate, the finale
as in Fulfillingness' First Finale (such a Wonder).

Oh Simple Girl, you Simple Sister, you!
 

---

Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Simple Girl: Isn't there some debate as to the actual meaning of the symbol used for black?

---

quote:

---

It's not a stairstep it's crocodile scales

---

^ And Black Face is also a reference to the crocodile in mdw ntr, and a reference to Osirus, and for the same obvious reason.
 

---

Posted by Meti Sutn Anu (Member # 4547) on :
 
@TheAmericanPatriot:

I am very familiar with the 20-50 page disquisition/Dissertation personally as I've had to write two of them. I understand what you are saying but it does not give a solution to the question that I posed. It has been agreed that KM.T has a religious connotation based upon the fact that 'black' was a color of spiritual superiority unlike the concepts European countries carried. It should be extremely clear that those whom we call 'black people' are by majority 'brown'in skin color.

Here's the questions once more.If the word 'KM.T' was seldom used as it was then what was the alternative that they used to identify KM.T and its people? The question just posed was a two fold question.

If you look at the ancient Kemetic arts you will see that they used a wide range of colors to properly identify each person, place or thing. They've even painted outsiders the so-called color white so I know that its not an issues of loose color interpretations.



I use this picture to show that they had the paint to draw their skin colors properly so I'm looking for a logical explanation as to why the ancient Egyptian, Grecian and Roman didn't know what they were talking about and secondly a logical reason as to why the word 'Kemet' has the word 'Land/Soil' in it.

Thanx in advance.

As a side note What I've learned up to this point is that 'KM' means black which is something that all scholars agree to. Again, I do not debate this issues but I'm only giving you what ALL scholars agree to and that is the word 'KM/KEM/KAM' means 'Black'. Can we agree to this TheAmericanPatriot as do all of the scholars? If so then please tell me how does the 'T' in KM.T describe land?

I've heard scholars say that the word has only been used in a context that is dealing with 'land or soil' but under those condition it seems logical that it would be talking about a peoples land. I come to this assumption based on the fact that .et or .t represents the plural so then 'blacks land' would be logical as to say the
'land of black people.' If this not so then please give a logical rebuttal.

Again, thanx in advance
 

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Posted by Meti Sutn Anu (Member # 4547) on :
 
I didn't know 'rasol' and 'alTakruri' gave responses - I was writing while they responded but please TheAmericanPatriot give me the dignity of answering the questions.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
There is no AmericanPatriot here only a TexasReactionary.
 

---

Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
So Meti if you are correct show me the papers published by egyptologists agreeing with what you guys say, that is what I am asking. I posted data from leading Yale scholars which said that kemet meant black land. I could care less what you guys think the word means. Most of the experts I am reading say black land over and over.
They say it means dirt, soil etc if a professor assigned you a paper on the subject what Doug, rasol, Djehuti etc would not work.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Primary documentation beats everything else.
Produce primary documentation from whoever
that show KM.t in association with any
hieroglyph that means dirt/soil.

Irks you to no that neither you or the
bruised reeds you lean on can do no such
thing.

Failing that produce a dictionary or lexicon
that lists soil/dirt as a translation for
nwt as in KM.t{nwt}. We've been waiting for
years and we're still waiting.

Anything less is more filibustering* from
the gentleman from Texas. No matter how
lengthy, all filabustering comes to an
end and the session resumes its work.

* filibuster -- a tactic for pirating or hijacking debate.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 





 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
From Erman and Grapow's Wörterbuch der ägyptischen Sprache Vol 5






 

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Posted by Meti Sutn Anu (Member # 4547) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
There is no AmericanPatriot here only a TexasReactionary.

---

lol
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 



 

---

Posted by Meti Sutn Anu (Member # 4547) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
So Meti if you are correct show me the papers published by egyptologists agreeing with what you guys say, that is what I am asking. I posted data from leading Yale scholars which said that kemet meant black land. I could care less what you guys think the word means. Most of the experts I am reading say black land over and over.
They say it means dirt, soil etc if a professor assigned you a paper on the subject what Doug, rasol, Djehuti etc would not work.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

---

You proclaim to be a professor so then you should know better then to use the tactics you're using. You would not accept a students paper who brings you hear-say when you are asking for facts. Since my level of education is equal to if not surpassing that of yours I will tell you teacher to teacher that your methods deserve a 'F' for lousy presentation and illogical reasoning.
 

---

Posted by Meti Sutn Anu (Member # 4547) on :
 
Ignorance driven at full speed will lead to a fatal wreck - Dr. Herman Patton
 

---

Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Meti Sutn Anu

Your post was good. I have to say that you ain't the only person waiting for Patriot to show what he really knows about Ancient Egypt. Welcome to egyptsearch.

Peace
 

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Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
Well Meti, there is a lot of ignorance around here, for sure. Let me try to be more clear because this is obviously wizzing right over your head. You displayed several pages of Egyptian writing and it looks good BUT the point is it is worthless to you and me. We are not specialists in Egyptian writing. Now listen closely.....we do not have the skills to discus it at the highest level.
That is why we use the historiographic method to work our way thrugh problems that are out of our field. What is it about this concept you do not understand??? To understand the issue you gather the views of TOP SPECIALITS to reach some understanding of the issue. When this subject came up that is what I did. The top people in the field, as you noted, say it means black land. Data from top scholars is NOT hear-say, the views of Doug and the other guys ARE hear-say.

You guys know you are out of step with mainline thinking on this issue. Now find me tracks on the issue from top mainstream scholars who say it means black people. If you could do that, you would.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Still waiting for actual data in the form of a
primary document written by the Ancient Egyptians
or failing that a dictionary or lexicon entry
for black soil/dirt in hieroglyphic.

The three dictionary/lexicon examples above are
ample displaying scores of KM terms none of which
remotely resemble the word 'black' with a 'land'
determinative.

Why is that? Oh, yes. The compilers of these works
used by Egyptologists and linguists must not be
'top scholars.' And true they are not. They do
not roll dried leafy vegetation in Top papers,
light up and puff as you most assuredly have
been doing for pages already.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
The choice paper of 'top scholars' like TexasReactionary.

Unfortunately these are not the kind of papers we
reference around here. Our papers are not full of

 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Then again considering what's coming out your ...
maybe Bull Durham is your choice of smokes.

 

---

Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
Takruri, Primary documents are great WHEN you have the ability to work with them. When you take a position that is out of step with mainstream scholars we have to question your ability to use those documents.
 

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Posted by Meti Sutn Anu (Member # 4547) on :
 

quote:

---

. Now listen closely.....we do not have the skills to discus it at the highest level.
That is why we use the historiographic method to work our way thrugh problems that are out of our field. What is it about this concept you do not understand??? To understand the issue you gather the views of TOP SPECIALITS to reach some understanding of the issue. When this subject came up that is what I did

---

quote:

---

The top people in the field, as you noted, say it means black land

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Meti Sutn Anu:

What disturbs me about the position you are taking is that you have no reasonable explanation for why you accept these scholars writing except the fact that they teach at prestigious universities. The theme of your post and responses up to this point has been, "if they say, then I believe ... .

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by KING:
Meti Sutn Anu

Your post was good. I have to say that you ain't the only person waiting for Patriot to show what he really knows about Ancient Egypt. Welcome to egyptsearch.

Peace

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
Meti, You are NOT an Egyptologist, nor do you have the skills to deal with complex primary sources.

---

quote:

---

I commend you for your interest but I question your motives. Are you actually interested in Egyptian history OR are you interested in a black Egypt?

---

quote:

---

Many on this board could care less about Egypt except to the extent that they can use it to further their racial politics.

---

quote:

---

Anytime you hear someone talk about "Eurocentrics" you have a full blown black racist on your hands.

---

quote:

---

[/QB]In any event you have no advanced degree in the subject nor have you come anywhere close to getting one.

If you did get one your professors would require you to do EXACTLY what I am asking you to do. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
Meti, You are NOT an Egyptologist, nor do you have the skills to deal with complex primary sources. I commend you for your interest but I question your motives. Are you actually interested in Egyptian history OR are you interested in a black Egypt? Many on this board could care less about Egypt except to the extent that they can use it to further their racial politics.
Anytime you hear someone talk about "Eurocentrics" you have a full blown black racist on your hands.
In any event you have no advanced degree in the subject nor have you come anywhere close to getting one.

If you did get one your professors would require you to do EXACTLY what I am asking you to do.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
Takruri, Being judged the loser by the regulars here is almost a badge of honor. I have offered scholars who maintained that position, I have recieved none from you. I do not believe they exist. I have been looking at this board for a long time and you guys almost NEVER suppy what scholars would call adequate historiograpical explanations.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
You guys are all fools chasing Pat's ding-a-ling.
The goal is not to convince Pat or keep catering
to him as if he's the credential certifier. One
thing and one thing only settles this whole issue:

quote:

---

Crust of the bisquit:

• primary documentaion exists for KM.t as a community,
  ethnonym, and as an adjective for body parts
• no primary documentation exists connecting the word
  km.t and any AEL word for land/soil, to my knowledge.

Having issued this challenge years ago without it
ever being taken up I again request any layman or
professional to produce any AE primary contextual
documentation where land/soil is next to the word
km.t

---

Everything else is nonsense. Until one, just one,
shred of valid evidence in the form of contextual
primary documentation written by the Ancient
Egyptians themselves is shown with km.t affixed
to a glyph or word for land is presented then the
fact remains there is no expression 'Black Land'
in the Pharaonic Egyptian Language, bottom line.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
It is not Takruri. You need the historioraphic study. Ideally that would be a 30-40 pae paper comparin the views of at least six top scholars, both pro and con. Your views are worthless in this situation, as would be the views of any layman.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kemp:
Khemet translates to white people.

---

 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
CHEIKH ANTA DIOP
Parenté génétique de l'égyptien pharaonique et des langues négro-africaines
Dakar: IFAN-NEA, 1977








 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
The pages from Diop show seven usages of KM.t and km.t in words for
people.

. . . .

Diop didnt do the translation. The translation comes from two European
sources, one German the other French, they being
1. the Worterbuch der Agyptischen Sprache and
2. the Prolegomenes a letude de la religion egyptienne.

. . . .

The determinatives seated man and\or seated woman mean people.

. . . .

In direct literal translation km.t.nwt means black nation, where the root
km (black) is an adjective suffixed by t which makes km.t a feminine noun
whose meaning 'black nation' is indicated by the determinative nwt. Since
km.t.nwt is a noun it can't be an adjective referring to the color of soil since
no determinative for soil is given. When km.t.nwt is literally translated as the
black land, the word land can only mean 'country' in the sense of 'nation.'
If land in the sense of soil was meant, the word ta would precede km.t,
something I have yet to see in a mdw ntr text.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
This is the glyph Ta, Gardiners N16

It means land and appears at the front of words like Ta Meri.


This is the glyph xAst, Gardiners N25

It means land and appears at the end of words like Khurru or Kush.

This is the glyph niwt, Gardiners O49

It means city, town, etc,, and appears at the end of the word KM.t.
Note that KM.t can appear with other determinatives not just
only with nwt.


The problem enters with our concept of the word land which can mean
a parcel of land or a country or nation. The Kmtyw marked the distinction
because nwt never means a parcel of land, it always mean a crossroads
village town city nation, etc.

Please provide an example from a mdw ntr text where the nwt determinative
means soil. What hieroglyphic dictionary gives soil as the meaning of nwt
which is a glyph that depicts a crossroads not a field or a desert or some such?
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Precisely why cannot mean black land in the sense of a
parcel of land which happens to be black in color. Nwt means crossroads,
village, town, city, nation. Hence logically means 'Black
nation' not 'black piece of land.'

Except in this instance of deliberate obfuscation, please show texts
where nwt is translated as 'land' instead of 'crossroads.' The dictionary
entry for nwt is village, town, city not land. The dictionary entries for t3
and smt are land.

Further, the codage system classes niwt under O (buildings) not in the
N (heaven earth and water) class where t3 and x3st are categorized.
Logic dictates that KM.t.nwt cannot mean 'black land' both according
to codage class and according to grammar where KM.t in KM.t.nwt is
indeed a feminine noun and is not an adjective. The name of a nation
is always a noun never an adjective.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 





 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
From Erman and Grapow's Wörterbuch der ägyptischen Sprache Vol 5






 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 



 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 


[img reserve ]

Kahun Papyri - Literary Texts - Plate 2
Fragments of a Hymn to Usertesen III
see outlined red rectangle at stanza 2 line 4


Kahun Papyri - Literary Texts - Plate 3
Fragments of a Hymn to Usertesen III
stanza 4 lines 3 & 5
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Transliteration and translation of the 1st 5 columns
of the Book of Gates the Gate of Teka Hra vignette 30


CAPS = multi-literal phonogram;
{ } = determinative;
(+) = unvoiced phonetic compliment;
. = suffix


Col1: å-n HRW n nn (+n+n)
[(interogative) Heru to these:

Col2: HQA{plural} t-w RA
["Subjects, ye (of) Ra.

Col3: å-m{plural}.w DWA{pr}.t
[Dwellers (in) netherworld.

Col4: k-m.t{nwt} d-sh-r.t{nwt} AKH
[Black community. Red community.

Col5: (+kh){scroll} n t-n{plural} HQA.w{plural} RA
[Beatification to ye subjects (of) Ra!






The "four types" -- or better, the "subjects of Ra" -- scene depicts the sun in
the 5th night hour with Heru addressing the dead. He verbally divides them
into the blacks (Nile Valley folk, i.e., Egyptians and Nehesis) under his protection,
and the reds (folk dwelling east or west of the Nile) under Sekhet's protection.


Heru is addressing all four types, first with a general intro
to the entire party of the afterlife dead (who died that day) still
in their shrouds. He "beatifies" them, reanimates them with
"spirit" (breath/wind), and releases them from their shrouds.
Then after all that he addresses each group in turn speaking
of the origins of their creation and assigning their "patron" deity.
First the RT RMTW and then in from sunrise to sunset order the
AAMW, NHHSW, and TMHHW .

The NWT ideogram means neither 'people' nor 'land.' This has
been explained a few times already and there's a post in the
archive with the subject header "KMT NWT" detailing this. The
glyph depicts a crossroads indicating a village or city, i.e. a
settlement or habitation. thus the use of it to mean 'community'
in its broad application for the corpus of the dead. It always
appears as the determinative following the name of a city.

Copyright © March 2004 al~Takruri. All rights reserved.
 

---

Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
 
You, obviously.

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
OK who's going to be fool enough to give this hater
the reaction and attention he so doesn't deserve?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kemp:
Khemet translates to white people.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bogle:
You, obviously.

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
OK who's going to be fool enough to give this hater
the reaction and attention he so doesn't deserve?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kemp:
Khemet translates to white people.

---

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrandonP:
IIRC, the argument for Kmt being a reference to soil comes from the belief that the glyph for Kmt represents a riverbank.

---

 

---

Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
 
I believe the crossroads symbol also refers to fertile soil. Thus the symbol for black{the crockadile skin) and the crossroads symbol meaning also fertile soil would be the equivalent to black fertile soil. The symbol for black has also a possible meaning as for the limit of something. This could mean the limit of the black fertile soil as being the limit of their homeland. The limit being the black fertile soil of the Nile and never the red sand of the desert.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Move beyond simple belief (this is not religion
we're dealing with here but etymology) to facts.
From the dictionary ungrasped by your simple mind





This is the glyph niwt, Gardiners O49

It means city, town, etc,, and appears at the end of the word KM.t.
Note that KM.t can appear with other determinatives not just only
with nwt.

Further, the codage system classes niwt under O (buildings) not in the
N (heaven earth and water) class where t3 and x3st are categorized.
Logic dictates that KM.t.nwt cannot mean 'black land' both according
to codage class and according to grammar where KM.t in KM.t.nwt is
indeed a feminine noun and is not an adjective.
 

---

Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
 
Remetch en kermit or people of the black land. There is more than one reference to how the people of Egypt viewed their homeland. The reference to black land is how they percieved the color of their land which was black as to the color of the soil.
 

---

Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
 
Shall we discuss the alternatives? The version you present is open to interpretation.
 

---

Posted by Meti Sutn Anu (Member # 4547) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Simple Girl:
Remetch en kermit or people of the black land. There is more than one reference to how the people of Egypt viewed their homeland. The reference to black land is how they percieved the color of their land which was black as to the color of the soil.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Simple Girl:
Remetch en kermit or people of the black land. There is more than one reference to how the people of Egypt viewed their homeland. The reference to black land is how they percieved the color of their land which was black as to the color of the soil.

---

 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
This didn't come out right before so here it goes again.




Kahun Papyri - Literary Texts - Plate 2
Fragments of a Hymn to Usertesen III
see outlined red rectangle at stanza 2 line 4


Kahun Papyri - Literary Texts - Plate 3
Fragments of a Hymn to Usertesen III
see outlined red rectangles at stanza 4 lines 3 & 5


 

---

Posted by Kemp (Member # 16733) on :
 
have never denied a Black presence in Egypt. The question is what position they had in the empire. Were they servants, slaves, mercenaries, soldiers, etc? Did they have important positions in Egypt like architect, scientist, scribes, etc? You can find Blacks in ancient Greece and Rome as well but they were not the builders of these civilizations and the same can apply to Egypt.
 

---

Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
They were all of the above plus being the majority population, It was the lite-skinned forigners you should ask that question of.Add to your job list the majority of rulers and upper classes untill the Assyrians,Persians,Greeks,Romans,Arabs,French,English,took direct control of the country.
 

---

Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
Betty, I am weary of this argument. Egyptologists of all races agree it is black land. Egyptologists are scholars and are not biased. That idea is complete silly nonsense.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
Find me mainstram Egyptologists who say it is something other than Black land.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kemp:
have never denied a Black presence in Egypt. The question is what position they had in the empire.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mentu:
A challenge to eurocentrists was proposed to prove kemet means black people or black nation rather than black land.Nobody here has been able to prove the black land non sense other than non sense appeal to authority.

This topic has shown us how eurocentrism rests not in scientific investigation of facts but falsification of history right from taking Kemet out of afrika to the fabrication of Greece.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
I have already done that. Go back to the top of the thread.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
Well Betty, if you know them , post them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bogle:

^ what a retard! since you have no answer to bettyboo you throw it back at her. I just don't know why anybody takes your dumbass seriously here. lol

---

quote:

---

According to the bible, Ham was one of the sons of Noah who moved southwest into Africa and parts of the near Middle East, and was the forefather of the nations there. The Bible refers to Egypt as "the land of Ham" in (Psalms 78:51; 105:23,27; 106:22; 1Ch 4:40). The Hebrew word for Egypt was Mizraim (probably literally meaning the two lands), and was the name of one of Ham's sons. The Egyptian word for Egypt was Kemet (or Kmt), meaning "black land" (in reference to the fertile dark soil along the Nile Valley).[4][5][6] Ham could plausibly be a name derived from Khem, or vice versa, via sound change, due to the change in language between Egyptian and Hebrew, corresponding to the well known phonological change of /k/ into /x/ (voiceless velar fricative) into /h/. The names of Ham's other children correspond to regions within Egyptian influence - Kush, Canaan, and Phut (probably identical with the Pitu, a Libyan tribe, though often associated with Punt, an ancient name for Benadir).
...
Nevertheless, since Khem (meaning black) was normally used to describe the fertile soils by the Nile, it was sometimes used as an epithet for Min, as the god of fertility. Since Khem was also an Egyptian name for Egypt (precisely because it described the soil of the Nile valley), there is also an association with Ham, who represented the forefather of the north-east African nations including Egypt.

---

quote:

---

From Egypt's theological and ideological perspectives, all lands and people have value, as products - like the Egyptians themselves - of the creator, so long as they function in accordance with the hierarchical position assigned them in cosmos, the created order often referred to as the personification, Maat. That hierarchy runs from the deities and their ruler, the lord of the cosmos - typically the sun god Ra in a variety of manifestations - down through Egyptians, then foreigners and finally the world of nature. Thus foreigners, in terrestrial terms, lie on the frontier between human (the Egyptians) and non-human(nature, with its beasts, birds and reptiles). Like the world of nature, foreigners are expected to provide support and sustenance to Egypt and its deities, under whose control they, in theory, lie.

However, any land can be rebellious, i.e. can refuse to service the interests of the Egyptian king; it may resist, perhaps militarily, Egyptian influence, control or attack, and may even take the initiative, attacking Egyptian forces abroad, or attempting to invade Egypt itself. In all three circumstances 'rebels', from the cosmographic and ideological perspective, take on the character of Isfet, the limitless formlessness surrounding cosmos and generating hostile forces - demons and monsters - that ceaselessly attempt to abort the orderly, live giving cycle of the sun god around cosmos and thus bring cosmos as a whole, and its carefully structured hierarchy, to an end. In these circumstances, rebellious, defiant or invasive foreigners become equivalent to the wild beasts and birds of the natural world, and the demons and monsters that manifest aggressive chaotic force on the cosmic level.

---

quote:

---

The alien nature of the foreign, and the affinity to that which relates to chaos, is manifest in the generic terms the Egyptians applied to them. A foreign land was a word written with a depiction of a three peaked, desert mountain ridge with a strip of green - the Nile Valley - at its foot. This indicates that foreigners lay beyond the ideal environmental and human order, i.e. the Egyptian Nile Valley and its inhabitants, and hence were on the frontier between order and chaos; and they lay behind the mountains defining the horizon, in a region wherein the sun god prepared himself for his renewal and re-ascent every day, but also had to be defended against the particularly intensive attack of the demonic, with which foreigners were to be identified. Another term which included foreign lands was "the nine bows", written as a bow with nine strokes underneath, which, however, can also be read as the 'diffuse and multiple lands', highlighting chaotic aspects of foreigners that could be taken to distinguish them from the order presented by Egypt AND ITS PEOPLE.

---

From: http://books.google.com/books?id=Z6nRkXHCoE4C&pg=PA93&lpg=PA93&dq=mysterious+lands+egypt&source=bl&ots=d4vHqQ7os5&sig=970C4n0xOb8p5plr1nrbOU58avM&hl=en&ei=K3tOSsqoBJTUNbCKhe4D&sa=X &oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1


Hence the "red lands" symbolizes the lands of chaos AND THE PEOPLE IN IT as forces of chaos, RED DEMONS and SERPENTS intent on destroying the order of the NATION itself and its people. It is not simply a reference to the desert outside the fertile areas of the Nile.

This association between the Red people and RED LANDS conquered by the King as enemies of order and a threat to his rule is seen plainly here:


Hence the popular passages tying Kmt as soil to Deshret as "red desert" meaning desert next to the fertile valley and NOT references to people ARE NON SENSE. Kmt means black nation and black people as much as 'red land' is a reference to the land and PEOPLE who are foreign to Egypt and a threat to its stability. It does not simply mean the deserts IN EGYPT on either side of the Nile Valley as a reference to SOIL. It is a symbol of contrasts, order/chaos, black/red, native/foreign and black/white.
 

---

Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
again Doug, since top scholars do not agree you are obviously wrong.
 

---

Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
 
^The logic inherent in this statement is so loony that I can't even entertain it other than to refer to it as such. You obviously have never finished your GE classes in CT, assuming that you've ever attended a college or university in your life (which I doubt VERY seriously).
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Again to point out the obvious:



The red land is LITERALLY obvious in this image. This image from a temple for Ramses II at Abydos is a pictorial representation of what is TEXTUALLY written in the Hymn to Senwosret III. It LITERALLY shows the hieroglyph for land with a red color, the LITERAL meaning of what RED LAND refers to and right above it you see the PERSONIFICATION of those RED LANDS the PEOPLE themselves. Above this is the pharaoh, shown with the green vegetation of the Nile, along with Cows and other signs of earthly prosperity and LIFE, as a symbol of the PROTECTOR of the seed and the LIFE and NOURISHMENT of the country. The RED LANDS are not a reference to the deserts IN EGYPT, they are a reference to FOREIGNERS from FOREIGN LANDS and FOREIGN DESERTS surrounding Egypt THE NATION.

Again, a translation of the Hymn to Senwosret III from the hieroglyphic passage to the right of the image below. Read right to left top to bottom to follow the translation below:

quote:

---

(1) He came to us to take the Southland: the Double-Crown was fastened to his head!

He came and gathered the Two Lands: he joined the Sedge to the Bee!

He came and ruled the Black Land: he took the Red Land to himself!

He came and guarded the Two Lands: he gave peace to the Two Shores!

(5) He came and nourished the Black Land: he removed its needs!

He came and nourished the people: he gave breath to his subjects' throats!

He came and trampled foreign lands, he smote the Bowmen who ignored his terror!

He came and fought [on] his frontier: he rescued him who had been robbed!

He came and [showed the power of his arms]: glorying in what his might had brought!

(10) He came [to let us raise] our youths: inter our old ones [by his will].

---

You will see that where they have translated "black land" there is no heiroglyph for land at all. Look at the third line down from the top and you will see the sign being referred to as black land. It is the sign with the man and woman over 3 tick marks and a lump of coal. The Niwt determinative for nation or polity isn't present. Hence, the determinitive is PEOPLE following the term KM which means black + people= black people. Now a little more to the left on the same line you will see an Ibis and an Eye and a symbol for land with three hills (as in the image above). THAT is where it says "red land", but that the hieroglyph for LAND is used.

IMage of the red hieroglyph:

http://africanhistory.about.com/od/egyptology/ss/EgyptColour_6.htm

The translation provided says:
He came and ruled the Black Land: he took the Red Land to himself!

It SHOULD say:

He came and ruled the black people: he (conquered) the red lands himself.

Meaning he conquered the lands of the foreigners as seen in the image at the top of this post.

And again, two lines down (5) you see the same pattern, a lump of coal followed by PEOPLE, which means BLACK PEOPLE and the translation below:
(5) He came and nourished the Black Land: he removed its needs!

Which is silly. You don't feed dirt and you don't nourish it. You feed and nourish PEOPLE.

Hence it LITERALLY says:

He came and nourished the BLACK PEOPLE: he removed their needs.

More scenes from Abydos showing Ramses with offerings as symbolic of his role of protector and responsible for the nourishment and well being of the people and protector of the seed (animal husbandry and agriculture Min/Geb/Osiris):





http://egypte.nikopol.free.fr/Abydos%20Ramses%202/abydosramses2.html

All of this symbolizes the Pharaoh as the living essence of Maat who maintains the life force of the land and the well being of the people.

Here is a full translation following the "black land/Egypt" scheme for reference:

http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/texts/hymn_to_senusret_iii.htm
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ It's amazing the great depths of denial these fools are in that they deny basic logic!!

The word 'land' is represented by certain glyphs. So how can Kmt mean 'black land' if there is NO glyph for 'land' present?!!

But hey, what do you expect from loons who claim that these Egyptian royals below are "caucasians"
















 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
CHEIKH ANTA DIOP
Parenté génétique de l'égyptien pharaonique et des langues négro-africaines
Dakar: IFAN-NEA, 1977








 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
The pages from Diop show seven usages of KM.t and km.t in words for
people.

. . . .

Diop didn't do the translation. The translation comes from two European
sources, one German the other French, they being
1. the Worterbuch der Agyptischen Sprache and
2. the Prolegomenes a letude de la religion egyptienne.

. . . .

The determinatives seated man and\or seated woman mean people.

. . . .

In direct literal translation km.t.nwt means black nation, where the root
km (black) is an adjective suffixed by t which makes km.t a feminine noun
whose meaning 'black nation' is indicated by the determinative nwt. Since
km.t.nwt is a noun it can't be an adjective referring to the color of soil since
no determinative for soil is given. When km.t.nwt is literally translated as the
black land, the word land can only mean 'country' in the sense of 'nation.' If
land in the sense of soil was meant, the word ta would precede km.t, something
I have yet to see in a mdw ntr text.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
This is the glyph Ta, Gardiners N16

It means land and appears at the front of words like Ta Meri.


This is the glyph xAst, Gardiners N25

It means land and appears at the end of words like Khurru or Kush.

This is the glyph niwt, Gardiners O49

It means city, town, etc,, and appears at the end of the word KM.t.
Note that KM.t can appear with other determinatives not just
only with nwt.


The problem enters with our concept of the word land which can mean
a parcel of land or a country or nation. The Kmtyw marked the distinction
because nwt never means a parcel of land, it always mean a crossroads,
village, town, city, nation, etc.

Please provide an example from a mdw ntr text where the nwt determinative
means soil. What hieroglyphic dictionary gives soil as the meaning of nwt
which is a glyph that depicts a crossroads not a field or a desert or some such?
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Precisely why cannot mean black land in the sense of a
parcel of land which happens to be black in color. Nwt means crossroads,
village, town, city, nation. Hence logically means 'Black
nation' not 'black piece of land.'

Except in this instance of deliberate obfuscation, please show texts
where nwt is translated as 'land' instead of 'crossroads.' The dictionary
entry for nwt is village, town, city not land. The dictionary entries for t3
and smt are land.

Further, the codage system classes niwt under O (buildings) not in the
N (heaven earth and water) class where t3 and x3st are categorized.
Logic dictates that KM.t.nwt cannot mean 'black land' both according
to codage class and according to grammar where KM.t in KM.t.nwt is
indeed a feminine noun and is not an adjective. The name of a nation
is always a noun never an adjective.
 

---

Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
Knock yourselves out guys. You can impress each other all say if you wish with these theories but the fact reamins top scholars do not agree with you. That gives the rest of us a choice, we can believe them or you.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 





 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
From Erman and Grapow's Wörterbuch der ägyptischen Sprache Vol 5






 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 



 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 


Kahun Papyri - Literary Texts - Plate 2
Fragments of a Hymn to Usertesen III
see outlined red rectangle at stanza 2 line 4


Kahun Papyri - Literary Texts - Plate 3
Fragments of a Hymn to Usertesen III
see outlined red rectangles at stanza 4 lines 3 & 5


 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Transliteration and translation of the 1st 5 columns
of the Book of Gates the Gate of Teka Hra vignette 30


CAPS = multi-literal phonogram;
{ } = determinative;
(+) = unvoiced phonetic compliment;
. = suffix


Col1: å-n HRW n nn (+n+n)
[(interogative) Heru to these:

Col2: HQA{plural} t-w RA
["Subjects, ye (of) Ra.

Col3: å-m{plural}.w DWA{pr}.t
[Dwellers (in) netherworld.

Col4: k-m.t{nwt} d-sh-r.t{nwt} AKH
[Black community. Red community.

Col5: (+kh){scroll} n t-n{plural} HQA.w{plural} RA
[Beatification to ye subjects (of) Ra!






The "four types" -- or better, the "subjects of Ra" -- scene depicts the sun in
the 5th night hour with Heru addressing the dead. He verbally divides them
into the blacks (Nile Valley folk, i.e., Egyptians and Nehesis) under his protection,
and the reds (folk dwelling east or west of the Nile) under Sekhet's protection.


Heru is addressing all four types, first with a general intro
to the entire party of the afterlife dead (who died that day) still
in their shrouds. He "beatifies" them, reanimates them with
"spirit" (breath/wind), and releases them from their shrouds.
Then after all that he addresses each group in turn speaking
of the origins of their creation and assigning their "patron" deity.
First the RT RMTW and then in from sunrise to sunset order the
AAMW, NHHSW, and TMHHW .

The NWT ideogram means neither 'people' nor 'land.' This has
been explained a few times already and there's a post in the
archive with the subject header "KMT NWT" detailing this. The
glyph depicts a crossroads indicating a village or city, i.e. a
settlement or habitation. thus the use of it to mean 'community'
in its broad application for the corpus of the dead. It always
appears as the determinative following the name of a city.

Copyright © March 2004 al~Takruri. All rights reserved.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
We invite those of independent thought to objectively
evaluate the above evidence which is replicable and
falsifiable to point out any errors based on the rules
of language.

We also solicit primary textual documentation for the
use of t3 with either KM.t or km.t. Lacking such text
we must reject any notion of a "black land" bearing
meanings of soil or dirt regardless of who puts forth
that so far unsupported by AEL source idea.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
We have gone toe to toe with Griffis-Greenberg,
Goelet, and Allan, each of whom have failed to
cite an AEL text in support of black soil.

The only passage remotely close to that states
quite literally "lands of the Black Community."

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
Knock yourselves out guys. You can impress each other all say if you wish with these theories but the fact reamins top scholars do not agree with you. That gives the rest of us a choice, we can believe them or you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Good thread to note for future reference. Thanks.

---

• Wednesday, February 17, 2010
  Egypt and Nubia--More Influences
  According to Necia Desiree Harkless, the author of Nubian Pharaohs and Meroitic Kings, ancient Egypt was known as Kemet, but the "formal name seems to have been Tawy (The Two Lands) that means the black lands along the banks of the Nile River. The people called themselves the Kemites (The Black Ones). (p. 5)"
  
  Egyptologists are now beginning to realize with the new evidence that "...the ancient Egyptiasn civilization is rooted in Africa... (p.8)"

from

The Nubian Detective

When a friend asked me to assist her with an art project on the Nubians, we went to the local library and found--nothing. Two shelves on Egypt. Ten books on Ethiopia and Sudan. Nubia? Nothing. So, of course, if you know me at all, I decided to discover everything I could on the Nubian--or is it the Kushites (one book in the children's library)--culture.
 

---

Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
I hate to break it to the people, but the word /km.t/ means "land, farm, place, village." The earliest determinative for the hieroglyph is the "irrigated land" symbol (Gardiner sign N23). I discussed it briefly in my 2009 book _The Bakala of North America_ pg. 59. But I will be doing a full treatment of the controversy in an upcoming book:



If you look at the glyph on the cover, this is the earliest attestation of the word km.t and as you can see it has the irrigated land determinative. And for the record, the N23 det. is pronounced /tA/ in Egyptian: in other words "land." That means your read it km.t tA, just like you would read tA mrj.

KM.T (in Tshiluba ciKam) is cognate with:

Basa kaam "farm"
Doai kaam "farm"
Esitako ekaam "farm"
Ngodzin kam "farm"
Runda kumadin "farm"

and

Balue kom "country, region"
Okam ekoma "city"
Ndzem kom "rural area"
Bateteka komwa "country, region"
Bakweri kumi "country"
Zulu khumbi "nation"
Pende guma "country, region"
Dewoi gumo "village, city"
Caga gumi "rural area"
Lingala gumba "city"
Galla/Oromo gomdji "land which grows warm and is healthy cultivated"

The k-m root denotes land that has water, livable land. It has nothing to do with the color black. The word /km/ "black" in Egyptian is a homograph (not homonym). So while researches in the mainstream are coming to a conclusion similar to early African-centered hypotheses, they are still wrong. It has nothing to do with black soil or black people. The "people" determinatives is another way to say "people, community" or "nation" as the cognates in related languages support.

Again, a more fuller analysis will be given in the upcoming publication.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Went over this with you years ago
where I demonstrated AEL words for
farm none of which were KM.t in any
of its forms but will recheck AEL
dictionaries. All AEL dictionaries
agree KM's primary definition is black.

`hh.t; a word for farm land, i.e., a 'roped off' piece of arable land


But you are certainly entitled to
your own private definition.
 

---

Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
It's not an issue of my own private definition. I am looking directly at the hieroglyphs with the N23 determinative and know its earliest attestation. I let the glyphs speak for themselves. Demonstration beats conversation. This is not an argument you can win based on your ideology and what you believe. The texts kills any argument. The comparative data reaffirms its meaning. This is an issue of philology and linguistics; both prove km.t is a word for "livable land space" (land with a river running through it). Again, the variation of km.t that is on the cover of my book is the earliest form of km.t, before there was ever a km.t ni.wt. This is no longer a debate. Obenga and Diop had it wrong because they didn't have access to the earliest attestation (during the end of the First Intermediate period going into the 11/12th dynasty).
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
OK, but I will stick to the lexicon
and am not about to go the rounds
with you so go ahead knock yourself
out proving all the texts using KM or
k-m never ever mean black.

BTW I posted the first known "text"
with KM.t:nwt in a post years ago
The use of nwt precludes unimproved
land used for cultivation.

Let's look at some hieroglyphs of Ancient Egyptian Language words for "farm".


`hht; the word for farm land

prw; the word for land emerged from inundation -- the fabled so-called 'black land'

3hht; the word for irrigable land

p3`t; the word for soil or field, i.e. arrable land

Notice not one of these actual AEL words has either KM or KM.t in them.
 

---

Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
No one said the word km doesn't mean black. What you don't understand is the principle of "paronymy" and the "rebus principle" used in ancient Egyptian texts, as well as other African languages.

The word km.t "the nation Km.t" is not the same word as km "black." They are homographs: i.e, the same graphemes are used for separate words that are not etymologically linked.

The word km.t ni.wt follows the Proto-Western-Sudanic model of word formation. Westermann (1927) notes the following suffix: PWS *-ni "person, plural." This suffix is found in ethnic names such as:

Fula-ni (Nigeria, Senegal, Mali)
Bir-ni (Nigeria)
Idua-ni (Nigeria)
Galdabu-ni (Niger),
Mai-ni (Niger)

and with reduction to -n:

Beni-n (Nigeria),
Iseyi-n (Nigeria),
Illori-n (Nigeria),
Mahi-n (Nigeria)

In Linear A (Greece) it occurs on the name KUDO-NI “Cydonians” (see Campbell-Dunn 2006: 128).

The Egyptians reanalyzed the word and added their own pluralizing suffix .wt to the root which means "people, person." The -t in all of the Egyptian place-names are not feminine -t; they are the PWS *-ti "locative suffix: in, at" (e.g. Te-shi, Ki-shi > in Nigeria). There ti > th > shi (palatalization). Another form is given by Westermann as PWS *-ci (= -si)"ethnic group" (e.g. Te-shi, Abin-si). Thus km.t has either the locative (denoting a place) or ethnic group suffix.

Place-names in early times referred to the actual people, thus the ethnic/people suffixes to the names. The concept of people/land are interchangeable in African languages, which is why in Egyptian N23 /tA/ "irrigated land" and O49 ni.wt and the people determinatives are interchangeable.

As I note in my upcoming book:

quote:

---

The usage of the ni.wt determinative was associated with later usages of km.t, but its usage and association was built off the concepts embedded in the N23 determinative which preceded it. The interchangeability of the two determinatives can be seen in the following examples:


spA.t “district, nome, necropolis” (Vygus, 2012: 801)


spA.t “district, nome, quarter” (Vygus, 2012: 801)

Again, both determinatives are associated with geographical space and they both refer to land. It can no longer be argued that kmt doesn’t refer to land because of the absence of the tA glyph. The very O49 and N23 determinatives mean “land, earth, country (city, town).” The N23 is vocalized as tA. We have already established that the same word for land is the same word for people, not only in Egyptian, but in the many Black African languages.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:


I hate to break it to the people, but the word /km.t/ means "land, farm, place, village."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:


No one said the word km doesn't mean black.

---

quote:

---

The earliest forms of the word km.t have the Alan Gardiner sign N23 as the determinative (see Gardiner 2007:33). It is a sign of “irrigated or cultivated land.” Adolf Erman and Hermann Grapow in their Wörterbuch der Aegyptischen Sprache state that the earliest form of kmt belongs to a Dynasty VI Old Kingdom inscription in Dendarah. Ogden Goelet (in the book Ki Baruch Hu: Ancient Near Eastern, Biblical and Judaic Studies in Honor of Baruch A. Levine, 1999: 32)argues the earliest is the XI or XII Dynasty. The following appears in the Hammamat graffito of an early Dynasty XII official Antef which referred primarily to the Nile Valley as the place people dwelled (Hammmamat 199, temp. Amenemhat I).

Couyat and Montet, Quadi Hammamat, 100-102.




KM.T with N36 Determinative


KM.T preceded by land (ta) signs with N23 determinatives

FOOTNOTE: Adolf Erman, Hermann Grapow: Das Wörterbuch der ägyptischen Sprache. Zur Geschichte eines großen wissenschaftlichen Unternehmens der Akademie. Berlin 1953.

****

The determinative signs bring our attention to the inspiration behind the word. The N23 sign is an image with two strips of land connected by irrigation channels: a procedure one does to bring necessary water to areas needed for planting crops or drinking. This is an indicator that this land is being occupied by human beings as irrigation is an activity of urban development. Later on the niw.t determinative was used instead of the irrigated/cultivated land symbol.

---

End of discussion. But to ensure that I am not "making up" anything as Tukuler claims, here is an entry from the Grapow Worterbuch

WB v5 p126-127





Notice in the first image how the authors note the interchangeability between N23 and O49? Notice the other determinative {mr} N36? Notice that it too is interchangeable with N23 and O49? Note as well that this is a glyph denoting WATER. You can continue to argue this path all you want. I've been researching this question for over ten years and know where to find the glyphs. You are just regurgitating Diop who didn't come across the Hammmamat graffito. The watered land determinatives, including ni.wt (which isn't a city plan, but a sign of irrigation channels crossing each other), shows and proves that km.t (with ni.wt determinative) has nothing to do with "black" and definitely not "black land" or "black people." It is a word meaning "farm, livable land, watered land, land with a river or canal." It's not that hard. We must change our perspectives with new evidence.

I've been saying this for years and you guys keep rehashing old outdated arguments on the km.t question. And so you get it in your heads again, the African cognates:

Basa kaam "farm"
Doai kaam "farm"
Esitako ekaam "farm"
Ngodzin kam "farm"
Runda kumadin "farm"

and

Balue kom "country, region"
Okam ekoma "city"
Ndzem kom "rural area"
Bateteka komwa "country, region"
Bakweri kumi "country"
Zulu khumbi "nation"
Pende guma "country, region"
Dewoi gumo "village, city"
Caga gumi "rural area"
Lingala gumba "city"
Galla/Oromo gomdji "land which grows warm and is healthy cultivated"

So, when the "modern" researcher argues km.t now means "black ones/people," they are still WRONG. They did not consult the glyphs and they did not look for cognates in related African languages. We have to be more rigorous in our research efforts or we will continue to look like amateurs because we refuse to study.
 

---

Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
Going back to my cover for the upcoming book, you see it is based on actual texts. The km glyph was originally written "backwards" and the determinative was the N23 irrigated land symbol. There was no "black water" in which they were referring to. The word has nothing to do with Black. Plain as day. This discussion ends now.

km.t mr
km.t ni.wt
km.t tA


 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Talk about plagiarism!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:


Adolf Erman and Hermann Grapow in their Wörterbuch der Aegyptischen Sprache state that the earliest form of kmt belongs to a Dynasty VI Old Kingdom inscription in Dendarah.

KM.T with N36 Determinative


KM.T preceded by land (ta) signs with N23 determinatives


End of discussion. But to ensure that I am not "making up" anything as Tukuler claims, here is an entry from the Grapow Worterbuch

WB v5 p126-127

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri April 13, 2010: (link)

Long ago I asked for examples of KM
used with determinatives for land.
I did so knowing that none of the
black land/soil proponents knew how
to read hieroglyphics and would fail
to produce definitive support.

I am reticent to do what I am about
to do because now those proponents
will have a source to work with but
the matter at hand dictates I proceed.

This is the oldest usage of KM.t as a
name for Egypt/Egyptians and with it is
a determinative for land. Also notice
what it juxtaposes. I don't have the full
context so not really sure if this refers
to a polity or just the literal ground.



AEs were fully capable of appending glyphs
for land to KM.t and did so as seen here.



In the above two examples, both signifying
land of the Black community, we find two
different glyphs for land use simultaneously.
The 't' suffix has nothing to do with ta as
ta plainly preceeds KM.t.[nwt] in each phrase.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:


I hate to break it to the people, but the word /km.t/ means "land, farm, place, village."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:


No one said the word km doesn't mean black.

---

quote:

---

pg. 174
Voyons maintenant ce que nous donnent les autres langues de la
comparaison. Ici c'est le zandé qui nous fournit le plus d'informations sur la
nature du terme M-E km, qui d'après les correspondances ci-dessus – le
lecteur comparatiste peut aisément s'en rendre compte – correspond au mot
zandé n.gbı̦̃31. Nous reproduisons ci-après in extenso la définition que
donnent de celui-ci Mgr C. R. Lagae et V. H. Vanden Plas dans leur

pg. 175
dictionnaire zandé-français : « ngbĩ s. terre ferme ; plaine. Par extension se
dit de toute terre visible. Ngbĩ aña : plaine de gibier, (plaine giboyeuse).
Ngbĩ ku sinziri yo wẽ : combien de plaines jusqu'au gîte, (c'est-à-dire :
combien de rivières devrons-nous traverser pour arriver au gîte – les Azandé
calculent les distances d'après le nombre de rivières à traverser, et
conséquemment d'après le nombre de plaines séparées par les rivières).
Kpwoto ngbĩ : le corps de l'univers, toute la terre ferme. Gbera-ngbĩ
calamité, (de gbera : mauvais; ngbĩ : univers, donc calamité publique) ».32
On ne saurait mieux définir le terme km tel qu'il ressort des textes M-E euxmêmes.
On est donc en face de l'alternative suivante : Ou bien les Zandé ont
d'abord vécu dans la vallée égyptienne du Nil et ont apporté avec eux le mot
avec sa signification de « vallée, plaine » – ce que rien ne permet à l'heure
actuelle de prouver, ou bien les ancêtres des Zandé et ceux des anciens
Égyptiens ont vécu à une époque reculée dans des plaines parsemées de lacs
et de rivières avant de migrer dans leurs habitats respectifs, ce qui
correspond parfaitement aux données archéologiques actuelles. L'expression
Kpwoto ngbĩ que Lagae et Vanden Plas ont traduit par « corps de l'univers »
– en se basant sur le terme kpwoto, kpɔtɔ « corps, peau » – est également
d'une très grande importance. En effet il est l'exact équivalent zandé de tA
km.t « le Pays d'Égypte » (voir correspondance suivante). Le terme kpɔtɔ est
d'ailleurs utilisé tout seul – sous la forme kpɔrɔ – pour signifier « village,
pays », exactement comme le fait le terme M-E tA.

---

 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Yep, comic book stuff.
 

---

Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
There was no side stepping. It was an illogical question.

My first comment tells you what the meaning of km.t, as far as the title of the country. The following comment dealt with the word km, no -t suffix, and its meaning "black." Again, you are trying to argue stuff here you have no clue as to what you're talking about. Did you even take the time to look up the word paronymy and how it is used in linguistics? Do you even get what's going on here? Do you know what the rebus principle is in writing scripts? Do you see how all of this is related? Please don't tell me you are confused here between the difference of km.t and km?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Why did you ignore and try to sidestep your doubletalk?
You think everybody but you is stupid.

Again

1st you say

quote:

---

Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:


I hate to break it to the people, but the word /km.t/ means "land, farm, place, village."

---

then you turn around and say

quote:

---

Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:


No one said the word km doesn't mean black.

---

.

Sitting on two horses with one ass?

Anybody buying your book then let 'em.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Talk about plagiarism!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:


Adolf Erman and Hermann Grapow in their Wörterbuch der Aegyptischen Sprache state that the earliest form of kmt belongs to a Dynasty VI Old Kingdom inscription in Dendarah.

KM.T with N36 Determinative


KM.T preceded by land (ta) signs with N23 determinatives


End of discussion. But to ensure that I am not "making up" anything as Tukuler claims, here is an entry from the Grapow Worterbuch

WB v5 p126-127

---

This is exactly what I posted years ago and today
you say I did not post the earliest instance of
KM.t:NWT

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri April 13, 2010: (link)

Long ago I asked for examples of KM
used with determinatives for land.
I did so knowing that none of the
black land/soil proponents knew how
to read hieroglyphics and would fail
to produce definitive support.

I am reticent to do what I am about
to do because now those proponents
will have a source to work with but
the matter at hand dictates I proceed.

This is the oldest usage of KM.t as a
name for Egypt/Egyptians and with it is
a determinative for land. Also notice
what it juxtaposes. I don't have the full
context so not really sure if this refers
to a polity or just the literal ground.



AEs were fully capable of appending glyphs
for land to KM.t and did so as seen here.



In the above two examples, both signifying
land of the Black community, we find two
different glyphs for land use simultaneously.
The 't' suffix has nothing to do with ta as
ta plainly preceeds KM.t.[nwt] in each phrase.

---

You also plagiarized Erman & Grapow from me beginning here

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Yeah, sure you right.

And no I don't have
the time to look up
anything you posit
and for your info
you are not the only
person with a vocabulary
beyond secondary school.

What you need to do
is get unstuck on
yourself and realize
you don't know it all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
I hate to break it to the people, but the word /km.t/ means "land, farm, place, village." The earliest determinative for the hieroglyph is the "irrigated land" symbol (Gardiner sign N23). I discussed it briefly in my 2009 book _The Bakala of North America_ pg. 59. But I will be doing a full treatment of the controversy in an upcoming book:



If you look at the glyph on the cover, this is the earliest attestation of the word km.t and as you can see it has the irrigated land determinative. And for the record, the N23 det. is pronounced /tA/ in Egyptian: in other words "land." That means your read it km.t tA, just like you would read tA mrj.

KM.T (in Tshiluba ciKam) is cognate with:

Basa kaam "farm"
Doai kaam "farm"
Esitako ekaam "farm"
Ngodzin kam "farm"
Runda kumadin "farm"

and

Balue kom "country, region"
Okam ekoma "city"
Ndzem kom "rural area"
Bateteka komwa "country, region"
Bakweri kumi "country"
Zulu khumbi "nation"
Pende guma "country, region"
Dewoi gumo "village, city"
Caga gumi "rural area"
Lingala gumba "city"
Galla/Oromo gomdji "land which grows warm and is healthy cultivated"

The k-m root denotes land that has water, livable land. It has nothing to do with the color black. The word /km/ "black" in Egyptian is a homograph (not homonym). So while researches in the mainstream are coming to a conclusion similar to early African-centered hypotheses, they are still wrong. It has nothing to do with black soil or black people. The "people" determinatives is another way to say "people, community" or "nation" as the cognates in related languages support.

Again, a more fuller analysis will be given in the upcoming publication.

---

quote:

---

2. (linguistics) the relationship between words with related derivations but different syntactic use

From: http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/paronymy

---

quote:

---

(1) A word that is derived from the same root as another word. Adjective: paronymous.

(2) A word linked to another by similarity of form.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
You don't get it. They are totally separate words all together.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
There is not connection other than there having the same consonant phonemes. The word km.t is actually two words. The first is PWS *ka "place, to dwell, to sit." This is the actual root. It has an old suffix -m that stands for "water, liquid." It is the same suffix that is found in Hebrew -dam- "blood." The root it *da "life, blood." Some languages will have this prefixed to the root. For instance, in Yoruba, we are familiar with the goddess YeMoja. The word Ye- is a word for "life, mother." The word Moja is a Niger-Congo word for "water." However, the root is -oja, in Proto-Bantu it is *jiji "water." The m- is a prefix denoting "liquids," just as it is suffixed in Egyptian.

da-m
m-oja
k-m

have the same linguistic structure.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:

The problem with many of us is that we want to be stuck in our ways. The evidence doesn't support either the Afrocentric or Eurocentric positions. However, a new Afrocentric consensus has emerged and I am not the only African linguist who has written on and argued this position.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
KM.t meas neither black people nor black land.

KM.t can be either the feminine of KM or KM as an adjective.

KM (biliteral), spelled k-m (two uniliterals) can mean black and can mean complete/completion.

It takes either a determinative or phrase context to yield black people (rm.t km.t) or black land (ta km.t)


Please review the entire threads
* Black land or people (this one)
* KM.t[rmt.st] = Black[people] i.e., Word + [determinative]
* The Black Land/soil nonsense put to bed
*

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
'Black people land' sounds more like a name outsiders would give to a nation (like Sudan, Mauritania, Zanzibar, etc).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:


@Lyin'Ass

---

undoubtedly


 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Still I have doubt that people would name their country after the color of their skin.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Personally, I don't really mind it that much
if kmt doesn't really mean black people, black soil
or land.

---

No one cares about what you like, think, want,
desire, etc. It just doesn't seem to register with
you that, on a scientific message board, you don't
get to choose what you like and what your whims
are. You either back up what you say and understand
what you talk about or not. It's that simple. You
clearly do neither, so just stay out of it like
the rest of us, and let those who've actually put
some thought into this do the talking.

Faith-based partisans aside, I will say this to
those in the forum who actually use their brain
when it comes to weighing interpretations, rather
than sentiment, whim and dogma: since the earliest
Egyptians would have interacted with light skinned
populations in the Levant and elsewhere, they
could have been made self-concious of their dark
skin through interaction and have adopted this
external view as an exonym, really no different
from how African Americans began to take up the
"black" self-label through interaction with
non-Africans.
 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
^^ Don't lie to us, I know you care Sweety.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:


I will say this: since the earliest Egyptians would
have interacted with light skinned populations in
the Levant and elsewhere, they could have been
made self-concious of their dark skin by them and
have adopted this external view as an exonym,
really no different from how African Americans
began to take up the "black" self-label.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
then how would the Nahasi fit in ?

also many of the Levantines have somewhat dark skin [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:


Faith-based partisans aside, I will say this to
those in the forum who actually use their brain
when it comes to weighing interpretations, rather
than sentiment, whim and dogma: since the earliest
Egyptians would have interacted with light skinned
populations in the Levant and elsewhere, they
could have been made self-concious of their dark
skin through interaction and have adopted this
external view as an exonym, really no different
from how African Americans began to take up the
"black" self-label through interaction with
non-Africans.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
^I have nothing to say to you, other than pointing
out the blatant pretentiousness in your posts, when
I see fit.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Faith-based partisans aside, I will say this to
those in the forum who actually use their brain
when it comes to weighing interpretations, rather
than sentiment, whim and dogma: since the earliest
Egyptians would have interacted with light skinned
populations in the Levant and elsewhere, they
could have been made self-concious of their dark
skin through interaction and have adopted this
external view as an exonym, really no different
from how African Americans began to take up the
"black" self-label through interaction with
non-Africans. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Those who can read got the general gist of my post
and know that I haven't said anything definite
here about any of the interpretations laid out in
this thread,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
then how would the Nahasi fit in ?

also many of the Levantines have somewhat dark skin

---

What is the inconsistency? Nehesi has nothing to
do with it and may even be a relatively new term,
for all we know. I'm talking about proto-Egyptic
speakers interacting with lighter skinned groups
outside of Africa. Proto-Egyptic speakers encounter
light skinned groups x, y and z and start to mould
their self-image accordingly. [/QB]

---

Ok maybe but at least in recent times there are many Middle Easterners not that far off in skin tone from some of the AEs
so the light skinned groups would have to be particularly specified and of enough power that Egyptians would feel need to distinguish themselves from them based on skin color.

It's too speculative. It would have to be a way of speaking about people, their skin and skin as a people identifer as a tradition in the Egyptian texts






usually the ancients might refer to a person's skin tone when the context is skin tone

"black skinned person"

But it seems it a relatively modern practice to call somebody a "black person" as a type of person directly
and without context to a discussion on skin color or other physical attributes

I haven't seen examples in ancient writing where a color is put directly besides a word for person (or man or woman) perhaps until relatively later time,
example Al-Jahiz's 9th century item Superiority Of The Blacks To The Whites

There has to be an established tradition in far earlier Egyptian texts to describe a people by skin color but where are the people of the South described this way, Kushites and so on ?
I don't see it
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
We've already been through this. These people are
genetically NOT carriers of as many ancestral
skin colour related alleles as you're making it
out to be. A good deal of their dark skin comes
from tanning, whereas the Egyptians would have
been dark, independent of any tanning. This has
been both genetically confirmed by testing mummies
for skin related genes, as well as microscopic
observations of quote: "cells packed with melanin".
I don't plan on going back and forth on this non-
sense w/you. Additionally, you seem to be lost on
my earlier proposal that this self-view would
have originated with early Egyptic speakers, not
dynastic Egyptic speakers.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:
...this posting, which I inadvertently started as a new topic, should have
actually been posted here because it reflects the continuing scientific
investigations stemming from the 1974 Cairo conference...It's an update:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:
This site was provided by Nehesy. I used Google translate to give us the
English translation from the French...

Letter from Cairo

quote:

---

SOME GENETIC FEATURES OF ANCIENT EGYPTIANS

As part of research conducted by the Cairo University in collaboration
with the Higher Council of Antiquities, it has been possible to achieve the
anthropological characteristics of the Pharaohs.

According to preliminary indications, we reached a number of traits of the
Pharaohs. It was possible to identify genes for size, color and eye color and
hair of the king in the Pharaonic era in which samples were collected. They
were placed on mummies in sarcophagi. A group of researchers has been
able to separate those genes that have proven that the ancient Egyptians
were not taller as previously thought. Their size was rather average, with
the exception of Ramses II, whose analysis of genes has proven to be cut.

It has also been demonstrated that his skin was brown and his hair was black,
not red. The color red has been found on his mummy is due to a dye (probably henna).
His eyes were black with a slight tinge of brown.

Amenhotep III was short of stature, the color of his skin was a light brown.
His eyes and his hair was black dark. These features show that the kings were
related. All the kings at that time had a common origin in the family tree of the
royal family. It is possible to determine a precise dates and times in the future.
This research will confirm certain anthropological traits that have been studied
before on the Pharaonic mummies. This will give preliminary indications about
the traits, diseases and characteristics of the Pharaohs.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
We've already been through this. These people are
genetically carriers of as many ancestral alleles
as you're making it out to be. They're tanned, whereas the Egyptians would have been dark, independent of tanning. This has been both genetically
confirmed by testing mummies for skin related genes,
as well as microscopic observations of quote:
"cells packed with melanin". I don't plan on going
back and forth on this non-sense w/you.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
I'm talking about proto-Egyptic
speakers interacting with lighter skinned groups
outside of Africa. Proto-Egyptic speakers encounter
light skinned groups x, y and z and start to mould
their self-image accordingly.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
the Egyptians would have
been dark, independent of any tanning. This has
been both genetically confirmed by testing mummies
for skin related genes, as well as microscopic

---

quote:

---

kmtjw Ägypter Wb V S 128
kmtj [großes Gefäß aus Granit] Wb V S 128
kmt Ägypten Wb V S 126
kmt Ägypter Wb V S 127
kmt (vollständig) Bezahltes Wb V S 128
kmt Schwanz (des Krokodils) Wb V S 130
kmt [Bezeichnung für heilige schwarze Rinder] Wb V S 125
kmt [Göttin (schwarze Kuh)] Wb V S 125
kmt [Gerät] RdE 30 (1978) S 20; Meeks: AL 784397; Meeks: AL 793237
kmt [Krankheit] Wb V S 122
mdt-kmt ägyptische Sprache Wb V S 127
pt-n-kmt [Heliopolis] Wb I S 491
rA-n-kmt ägyptische Sprache Wb V S 127

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quote:

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Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
KM.t meas neither black people nor black land.

KM.t can be either the feminine of KM or KM as an adjective.

KM (biliteral), spelled k-m (two uniliterals) can mean black and can mean complete/completion.

It takes either a determinative or phrase context to yield black people (rm.t km.t) or black land (ta km.t)


Please review the entire threads
* Black land or people (this one)
* KM.t[rmt.st] = Black[people] i.e., Word + [determinative]
* The Black Land/soil nonsense put to bed
*

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Still I have doubt that people would name their country after the color of their skin. As I said, it sounds more like what outsiders would do like in Sudan, Mauritania, Zanzibar, etc. Naming a country after the color of their soil makes more sense, as well as after the name, in their language, for good livable/arable land. A bit like "The valley" and people from the Valley.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
the Egyptians would have
been dark, independent of any tanning. This has
been both genetically confirmed by testing mummies
for skin related genes, as well as microscopic

---

It may be true but the sample size and technology used to make this assumption broadly about most pre-late ancient Egyptians in general is miniscule.
The "packed with melanin" article isn't even mentioned in current or old Egyptology texts.
And Diop's methods haven't been verified by other researchers.
I say this in context of current Egyptologists who support African origins of Ancient Egypt [/qb]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
Great, now you're derailing the thread. I'm out.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
I'm talking about proto-Egyptic
speakers interacting with lighter skinned groups
outside of Africa. Proto-Egyptic speakers encounter
light skinned groups x, y and z and start to mould
their self-image accordingly.

---

which light skinned groups of this predynastic period could be candidates?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
The problem with this analysis is that km.t, when referred to a country, is never without the suffixal -t. Secondly, one has not addressed the concept of paronymy in the Egyptian language. Thirdly, and the most important, the hieroglyphs clearly show the determinatives with irrigated land signs in its earliest attestation. All other variants from that point on is based on that model, nothing to do with blackness. You never see km.t written with ANY of the determinatives which would indicate color, like the curly piece of hair.

When reviewing the living texts, they are always used in reference to a place/location.

Here are all the instances of km.t in the WB.

quote:

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kmtjw Ägypter Wb V S 128
kmtj [großes Gefäß aus Granit] Wb V S 128
kmt Ägypten Wb V S 126
kmt Ägypter Wb V S 127
kmt (vollständig) Bezahltes Wb V S 128
kmt Schwanz (des Krokodils) Wb V S 130
kmt [Bezeichnung für heilige schwarze Rinder] Wb V S 125
kmt [Göttin (schwarze Kuh)] Wb V S 125
kmt [Gerät] RdE 30 (1978) S 20; Meeks: AL 784397; Meeks: AL 793237
kmt [Krankheit] Wb V S 122
mdt-kmt ägyptische Sprache Wb V S 127
pt-n-kmt [Heliopolis] Wb I S 491
rA-n-kmt ägyptische Sprache Wb V S 127

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Notice that km.t with the -t suffix is never defined as the word "black." This is because you will never find in an Egyptian text the word km.t used to describe any color. Like all European Egyptologists who don't understand African languages, they tried to force "black" on every reference of km; the same way all instances of nTr means "god." For instance, let's take the word kmt "the name of sacred black cattle." This is a misinterpretation. It is simply a word for "cattle." It is cognate with the word for cattle in the Nguni languages, ngombi. The /g/ sound is the result of the preceding nasal which weakened the plosive. It's just a word for cow. Examining African languages puts all of these false entries to rest. This is why we need our own dictionaries that corrects these mistakes made by people like Gardiner, Grapow and others who did not examine African languages in the process. Dr. Mubabinge Bilolo has done a good job in starting with his Tshiluba/Egyptian/Coptic dictionary. Also, Dr. Kipkoeech Sambu has a sizable lexicon with Kalenjiin/Egyptian/Coptic. Only by exploring the African languages do we get at the heart of the matter.

km.t = place/land/location/farm/livable land/land with water

km.t DOES NOT = black;

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quote:

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Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
I am not sure in total. But I cited one study in one of my previous posts. Here is the full citation:

GOELET, Ogden. (1999). "Kemet and Other Egyptian Terms for Their Land." In: R. Chazan, W.W. Hallo, L.H. Schiffman (Eds). Ki Baruch Hu: Ancient Near Eastern, Biblical, and Judaic Studies in Honor of Baruch A. Levine. Eisenbrauns. Winona Lake, Indiana. pp. 23-42.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
I am not sure in total. But I cited one study in one of my previous posts. Here is the full citation:

GOELET, Ogden. (1999). "Kemet and Other Egyptian Terms for Their Land." In: R. Chazan, W.W. Hallo, L.H. Schiffman (Eds). Ki Baruch Hu: Ancient Near Eastern, Biblical, and Judaic Studies in Honor of Baruch A. Levine. Eisenbrauns. Winona Lake, Indiana. pp. 23-42.

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Ogden Goelet. Clinical Professor of Middle Eastern and Islamic Studies.

chapter here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=mpYDLXUfIO8C&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

.
 

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Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
 
I would assume just a few, but there aren't that many documents in the early period in which km.t was used as a political designation. Both km.t and tA-mrj wasn't used as a place-name until the middle kingdom. Before then Egypt was simply known as xnw "the residence," literally "the interior" (inside).

Even still. Much of the time km.t didn't have any determinative at all. The O49 glyph came later and became the standard. But as I demonstrated before, the N23, N36 and O49 determinatives were interchangeable. In words dealing with land, these determinatives are interchangeable for the same words, as demonstrated with spA.t.

So it wouldn't matter if it was one, two or tweenty. The earliest usage of this term in regards to Egypt, the polity, had the N23 determinative that is vocalized as tA and whose symbol means irrigated land. What people don't realize either is that the version of km.t with the people determinitive only has one instance in the known Egyptian records.

But even this is based off of paronymy. It is a pun. The two people representing "people," but also denoting a "place." In African languages, to "live" anywhere is to be able to "sit" some place. As I stated earlier, the word km.t is two words: *ka "to sit, place, dwell" + -m "an affix denoting water/liquid." The word for to "sit" in many African languages is also repreented as k-m. For example:

PWS kà, kàl “to remain, to sit”
PWN KÀL “to sit” (Proto-Western-Negritic)


Tshiluba-Bantu (Congo)

ciKomo, nkum, nKam, muKam "to sit, location"
shi-Kama "sit, be seated"; "wait, be quiet"
–iikala “to sit, to remain, be still”

A synonym in ciLuba is somba “sit, live, reside, conduct, sit down to chat, retire, relax;” Shaali, sòmba1-> el-Badil ⇒ cisòmbelu ≋ cisòmbedi "living room, lounge, residence;" lusòmbèlà ≋ cisòmbedi "where one sits, shelter."

As I note in my publication on kmt