I'm ignorant in this area. Can someone help me? I am trying to find out:
(1) Where the idea arose that the early dynastic Egyptians inherited Bes from the Twa / Batwa Pygmy. (And, is there evidence they venerate Bes?)
(2) What Egyptian historical record speaks of Egypt's founding going back to Punt?
(3) I hear of the Anu as a people; I hear of Anu priests; I hear of writings by the scribe Anu; I hear of the Temple of Anu. What, if any, is the connection between these and which is right and which wrong? Or are they all correct portrayals? (Might the god Anu of the Sumerians come from the Anu people giving their chief god their name?)
(4) Is there evidence of a Twa/Anu relationship during protohistoric or early dynastic times or now?
(5) Speaking of the Egyptians and Sumerians, in From fetish to god Budge wrote: “The similarity between the two...gods is too close to be accidental...It would be wrong to say that the Egyptians borrowed from the Sumerians or the Sumerians from the Egyptians, but it may be submitted that the literati of both peoples borrowed their theological systems form some common but exceedingly ancient source.”
I have pictures of a group of Bes figures found in the Ubaid culture of Ur from 3500 BC with the same fluted crown as Egyptian Bes wore. Is there any way of tracing the Twa and Anu to this history? I don't think there is but there is no harm in asking.
Mostly, though, I am interested in whether or not there is any evidence of Bes being connected in early dynastic times with the Twa.
Can anyone shed light on this?
Thanx in advance,
Marc W.
. .
Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
I can tell you that the name TWA and ANU are the exact same name. They are just regional ways of saying the name NU: –du, –nho, –ni, –ntfu, –ntu, –nwo, –nwu, –so, –su, –tho, –thu and –tu
n/t/d/l are interchangeable. Some have been shown to morph to s. If I say BATU or BATWA, it's the same. NU is just NTU without the intrusive T.
Posted by AswaniAswad (Member # 16742) on :
I believe that the Twa and San people are the major factors of all people especially Africa as a whole.
Ptah may be an early attribute to the Twa/ptwah the opener,creator. This word is the same in Ethiopic,Arabic,Hebrew,and aramaic.
What about tuat the underworld does this have any association with the Twa. Even in Amharic Tuat has the same meaning as in ancient egypt
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: I can tell you that the name TWA and ANU are the exact same name. They are just regional ways of saying the name NU: –du, –nho, –ni, –ntfu, –ntu, –nwo, –nwu, –so, –su, –tho, –thu and –tu
n/t/d/l are interchangeable. Some have been shown to morph to s. If I say BATU or BATWA, it's the same. **NU is just NTU without the intrusive T.**
Very interesting
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
@ AswaniAswad
What if PTAH is a variation of BA-TWA(h)? or BA-TU? We know that /p/ and /b/ are interchangeable. PA and BA mean "people" or "they, them." The *PB form of the plural human noun class is *pa-.
It is not uncommon in African cultures to equate a "people" under one name. For instance, the first king of Rwanda, GIHANDA, is not the name of an actual first king. It is the collective name of the first human beings who derived from Kazi ka Muntu, meaning "the root of man," who is the "father of Gihanda" - which gave birth to humanity.
This may be a connection. More investigation is needed however.
Also, as far as the TUAT, I have found in my research that the pro-Bantu *dUa refers to an island. How does this relate to tuat/duat? If you recall the stories regarding the duat, you will know that within the duat, all of the lands that one travels too are "islands." This is in keeping with African cosmology that views stars as "islands" in the great ocean of the universe. The majority of spiritual systems I have been able to study refer to outer space as the spiritual world.
SBA (star) is written as KA-SUBA in Bantu (meaning star) and is the desired place to be after death. The goal of African spirituality is to become a star after death. The heavens is our home, and earth is the market place as we say in Ifa.
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
(To me, the most important element to emerge from this discussion thus far is that the Luo also claim to have been a part of the multi-ethnic nation of Kême, a point which, ahem, gives further credence to my previous statement that the etymology of the name "Barack Obama" could be traced back as far as the language of Kême... )
1) "An" and "Twa" are synonyms...
An - On = Pillar, Support
...Twa = Pillar, Support
Anu cities, people...
Anu of Re
Osiris the Anu
Denderah
Heliopolis
2) Stars, Morning, and the Tuat...Note: Morning in Amharic is T'äwat
Morning Star
Morning Star
...
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
Star
Ṫuat
...Morning...
...Morning
...
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
I think we have to be careful with similar sounding words, because although they sound the same, doesn't mean they are the same word. Also, just because it's in an Egyptian dictionary, doesn't mean they fully understood the concept under examination.
For instance, the term you have up there for ANI, which is in association for Osiris is actually a general term for a KING.
It derives from the word NI/NII which means "divine spirit." You find this term all over Africa. For the Ga-Adangbe people of Ghana, NII is the "divine spirit" and it is also the term for their kings. This supports the notion of a "divine king" as was done in ancient Khemu.
To say a "supreme king," in other words a "pharaoh" in Ga-Adangbe, you say A-NI.
All across Africa you will see the term MU-ENE, MWANE, MANI, IMANA, etc. in reference to the king. The Ga example has dropped the initial M for MU or MA which is very common in Niger-Congo languages. MA signals authority and also the person. It derives from an association with the God-force MAA: MAA Ngala (Bambara), AMMA (Dogon), IMANA (the great lakes area), MAAT (Egyptian).
The word NI has many derivations: NI (Yoruba), NI, NA, NE (All Bantu), NI (Egyptian), etc. all meaning "spirit."
This term was transferred into the Indo-European languages Latin Ma-nes (Etruscan Mani) “ancestr al spirits”, Niger congo ni “soul”, mani “people”, as in Ma-n-d-e (with intrusive d), Bamana, Djula, Sussu ni ”soul”, Gola o-ngin, o-ngi: ”soul”, Santrokofi ku-ni ”soul” (singular prefix).
Thus Latin anima “soul” (whence animal) can be further analysed as a- (prefix) ni (”soul”) ma(suffix). The word has cognates not only in Latin animus ”spirit, courage” but in Greek anemos ”wind” , Sanskrit anilas ”breath”, Irish anal ”breath”. The Sanskrit and Irish forms share the l of animal. Basque has arima “soul” (with Akpafu n > r). We should all know that the definition of "spirit" is "breath."
In Bantu, an extension of our term NI/NE, -yene means "the self" and is based off of the philosophy that the true "self" is the "spirit" (ne). To say my self in Zulu you say "Mi-yene" which is further condensed to "mina." MI = my, me, I. It is the same in all Niger-Congo languages and finds its equivalent in Egyptian as well.
Credo Mutwa discusses in all of his works about the Zulu concept of the ENA which is the "double" according to their cosmology. Your Ena is what gets judged and is what stays around to be a medium to the living if found to be righteous among men and the spirits. For reference, read Indaba My Children by Credo Mutwa.
ENA and ANI function the exact same way. It is Tutu's "ena" or "ani" that is being judged.
NI also extends to mean "to exist" because in African philosophy, the core of all existence is "spirit." So UN, UNN, N in Egyptian meaning "to exist" finds its equivalent in Yoruba as NI (to exist), Wolof NE (to be, to exist), Common Bantu NI, NE, NA (to exist, to be).
So I think a background in African spiritual concepts fully explains "Ani" in Egyptian texts. Like I said before, in African spirituality, stories of "people" are not real people; they are "concepts" used to make a point. This is just the African way and I think when people take Egyptian concepts too literally, they miss the point.
Again, in the DUAT are islands. The word you are reffering to is a bantu verb TUA meaning to "rise or set like the sun." I can do a break down of SUBA in the Bantu languages.
I can also do a break-down of SUBAA among the Fulani and Bambara which means an initiated "teacher/student." But I am in passing now and will do so later.
Posted by Yom (Member # 11256) on :
Thanks for the clarifications Asar Imhotep. Wally and especially Marc Washington (and Clyde Winters) are extremely overzealous in finding similar-sounding words in far-flung languages to compare to Ancient Egyptian.
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yom: Thanks for the clarifications Asar Imhotep. Wally and especially Marc Washington (and Clyde Winters) are extremely overzealous in finding similar-sounding words in far-flung languages to compare to Ancient Egyptian.
This response is not intended for Yom, who is 'blind' and confused (un-clarified) on purpose, but rather to those who may be distracted by his distractions...
Firstly, he has taken a deliberate misconception by Asar (and ran with it) :
Asar; "I think we have to be careful with similar sounding words, because although they sound the same, doesn't mean they are the same word..."
who then uses this dis-information in order to segue into his own personal discussion on African philosophy, which may be interesting, but here it is totally beside the point...
--then--
"and I think when people take Egyptian concepts too literally, they miss the point."
Whaaat??? How does one take an Egyptian word - euphemistically referred to here as a 'concept' too literally? - how does one miss the point that 'betuke' is what the Ancient Egyptians called a watermelon, what great philosophical point are we missing here?
But, I have had, on more than one occasion, to respond to this type of diversion before:
We base our 'overzealous' research, NOT on the basis of similar sounding words, but on words which have the same or similar meanings in different languages and which have similar spelling:
ran = 'name' in Coptic
ran = 'name' in Yoruba
ran = 'name' in Ancient Egyptian
...however...
ran <> 'name' in Japanese, it means 'chaos' - thus there is no correspondence with the first three words that match each other to the 't.' This isn't rocket science nor is it an "Egyptian concept" - it is how they spoke, communicated, you know "His name is Sinuhe..." (ran ef Sinuhe...)
also,
An and Twa, which DO NOT sound anything like each other are synonyms where either one can be used to indicate a pillar, support, and so forth...an attempt here to begin to respond to Marc's original questions...
Osiri Ani, as it is written in one of the most ancient of Ancient Egyptian texts, means quite simply, 'Osiri the Anu' - you know, 'Ani' means one 'Anu'...
tuwat = 'morning', both in Amharic and in Ancient Egyptian
...and one can whine, shed crocodile tears, pull their hair as much as they please and it will not shake the reality that:
Ser/Sir = a title of rank in Ancient Egyptian Sir = a title of rank in English . napi = 'a lock of (Egyptian) hair' in Ancient Egyptian nappy = a type of hair in English
...and please, please take us literally...
Oh, yeah, almost forgot: Marc, in response to: (2) What Egyptian historical record speaks of Egypt's founding going back to Punt?
This is found within the very word itself "P.won.it" which means "Country of the first existence"; poetically "Country of our beginning"...look it up...
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
Marc also asked:
quote: (3) I hear of the Anu as a people; I hear of Anu priests; I hear of writings by the scribe Anu; I hear of the Temple of Anu. What, if any, is the connection between these and which is right and which wrong? Or are they all correct portrayals?
Here is a re-post of something that I posted 10 November 2004...
The Anu People
The most significant fact of the founding of Pharaonic Civilization by the Anu people is rarely, if ever, mentioned in texts on Ancient Egypt. Not to mention the Anu is actually worse than, say, writing a history of the United States of America and not mentioning the Pilgrims (aka "Founders"/"Forefathers"). One has to look at earlier texts for this vital information:
The French Egyptologist Abbe Émile Amélineau is credited with the discovery of the Anu and their contribution to Egyptian civilization. It was Amélineau who designated the first black race to occupy Egypt as the Anu. He showed how they came slowly down the Nile and founded the cities of Esneh, Erment, Qouch and Heliopolis...
From Amélineau:
quote: These Anu were agricultural people, raising cattle on a large scale along the Nile, shutting themselves up in walled cities for defensive purposes. To this people we can attribute, without fear of error, the most ancient Egyptian books, The Book of the Dead and the Texts of the Pyramids, consequently, all the myths or religious teachings. I would add almost all the philosophical systems then known and still called Egyptian. They evidently knew the crafts necessary for any civilization and were familiar with the tools those trades required. They knew how to use metals, at least elementary metals. They made the earliest attempts at writing, for the whole Egyptian tradition attributes this art to Thoth, the great Hermes an Anu like Osiris, who is called Onian in Chapter XV of The Book of the Dead and in the Texts of the Pyramids. Certainly the people already knew the principal arts; it left proof of this in the architecture of the tombs at Abydos, especially the tomb of Osiris and in those sepulchers objects have been found bearing unmistakable stamp of their origin, such as carved ivory, or a little head of a Nubian girl found in a tomb near that of Osiris, or the small wooden or ivory receptacles in the form of a feline head--all documents published in the first volumn of my Fouilles d'Abydos.
From the Kememu
Anu the city of Heliopolis (Coptic; On) Anu Meh Anu of the north (Heliopolis) Anu Shemo Anu of the south (Hermonthis/Ermant) Anu Monti Anu of Hermonthis Anu Tem the Anu of Tem (Hermonthis) Anu Re the Anu of Re Afdu Ikhu the Four Ancestors (of the Anu) Ugrit Goddess of the Duat of Anu Djandjané Anu the Anu Court of Judges: Tem; Shu; Tefnut; Osiris; Thoth Anu n Ptoh the Anu of Ptah (Denderah) Anu n Nut the Anu of Nut (Denderah)
Denderah
Judging by the sheer number of given titles, the most venerated city of Kemet was not Thebes, but Denderah. After all, this was the city where the Parents of the Kemetian nation (Isis and Osiris) were born. (It is also in the same neighborhood as Naqada). Here are some of the titles of this city:
"The birthplace of Isis" "The Throne of the Queen" "The perfect throne in the Holy of Holies" "The place of joy" "The thrones of Horus" "The holy temple of Horus" "The throne of eternity" "The throne of the drink" "The birthplace of Nut" "The Golden House" "The Sanctuary of Osiris" "The Sanctuary of Re" "The city of the knowing of Isis" "The temple of life" "The temple of Hathor" "The eternal house" "The exalted temple" "The holy temple of Horus of the Two-Lands" "The house of knowledge" (per Rekhit) ---- The Sudanese Country of Bukem (Buqem)
This country was where the worship of the gods Hathor, Shu, Tefnut, etc., originated and spread down the Nile Valley. (An Anu country?)
Kas (Kos) - Capital of the 14th *state of southern Kemet
The word Kas, symbolized by a man astride two mythological creatures with their necks entwined and bound together, and the largest word on Narmer's palette of unification, means "Political Union." This particular state was situated roughly half the distance between the north-south borders of southern Kemet. It would be interesting to find the significance of its being named Kas (the south being unified first?)... *Kemet consisted of 42 states and governors; 22 located in the south and 20 in the north. ...
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
Greetings Wally
WALLY “who then uses this dis-information in order to segue into his own personal discussion on African philosophy, which may be interesting, but here it is totally beside the point...”
ASAR: I appreciate your critique, but I think you misunderstood my point. As a student of living traditions on the continent of Africa, and one who believes that modern African societies are a continuation of ancient traditions, it disturbs me that one who is vested and trying to penetrate the core of ancient African cultures would disassociate Egyptian liturgical terminology from the philosophy that spawned it.
What is going to make your work more valuable is if you can connect the work to living philosophies and not second hand guesses on something that may not be a living reality for you. I don’t know you personally so I will not make any speculations. All I can say is that unless you have a more holistic approach to your studies, you will miss critical information. Now, if you were a part of a living tradition, you would know that African sages do not choose words arbitrarily. Everything serves a purpose. The “Book of the Dead” is not about a person named “Ani” which you associate with “pillar.” That makes no sense. What does make sense is if you study living African traditions that explain what a “ni” is and its variations.
WALLY “We base our 'overzealous' research, NOT on the basis of similar sounding words, but on words which have the same or similar meanings in different languages and which have similar spelling:”
ASAR: This is exactly my point. Your observations are based on someone’s interpretation of African concepts other than Africans. For instance, every single dictionary I read that has the Bantu word ZULU says it means “the sky.” This is laughable and shows that anthropologists have been spreading the same information from the 1800’s. When you sit at the feet of master teachers, those who have been initiated, they have a different, more expanded concept than what is given in dictionaries to mean “the sky.” The world Zulu actually refers to “interplanetary space” and the ability for the “ena” to travel between this real. It derives from a word ZULA which means to “travel.” The word for “sky” among bantu wisdom traditions is SIBAKABAKA (blue heavens, the sky). You will only know this if you ask a Bukulu, Bukoles, Sangoma, Nganga, Nyanga, etc. The word Zulu is actually a contraction of Izulu Weduzulu. Just like the word OONI in Yoruba (for King) is a contraction of Omo Olowo Ni. Here we go with this term NI again.
All I am saying, is that if you want to learn how the “simplest” of concepts in Egyptian came to be how they are, get grounded in African philosophy because it will explain everything you need to know. Anything less than that is not scholarship.
WALLY “An and Twa, which DO NOT sound anything like each other are synonyms where either one can be used to indicate a pillar, support, and so forth...an attempt here to begin to respond to Marc's original questions...”
Here again is where you need to expand your horizons past Budge. (from my upcoming book, The Bakala of North America)
Names for people across the world
Rmt (Remetj) the people (of Ta-Mery /Egypt)
Bameki Batula (Kongo) the people
Khoikhoi (South Africa) the people (khoi (kwa?) = person)
Coorie (Australia) Our people
Twa (Central Africa) the people
Igbo (Nigeria) the people
Inuit (Canada) the people
Ani (U.S.) the people
Yunwiya Ani (Cherokee) the people of the mountains
Taino (Caribbean) the people
Ainu (Japan) the people
Anu (Africa & Asia) the people
Bantu, Watu, Batu, Vatu, Antu, Anthu, Hanu, Vanhu, Pawatu, Batho the people (of Ta-Mery /Egypt)= all of these are names for the people in the “Bantu” languages
The great Bantu nations can be established by examining the variations for the ‘people’ that are associated with the god NU: –du, –nho, –ni, –ntfu, –ntu, –nwo, –nwu, –so, –su, –tho, –thu and –tu (Jordan Ngubane – Conflict of Minds - 1979:63). Examine the following table:
LANGUAGE WORD FOR PERSON Hausa Mutum Ibo Nmadu Yoruba Eniya Swazi Muntfu Sotho Motho Xhosa Umntu Zulu Umuntu
As I mentioned before, n/t/d/l are interchangeable because you put your tongue in the same spot to say all of these letters and variation is inevitable due to dialects. This is how NI, becomes NU and NU becomes TU and T turns into a fricative S. The word MANI (meaning person) has an intrusive d which becomes MANDE. The same thing with NU and NTU. Linguistics 101 will tell you that U and W are interchangeable and in African languages U can become the passive suffix WA. WA as a suffix is quite common in African languages. The Niger-Congo word KAA meaning “man” in some Niger-Congo languages becomes KWA.
KAA KWA TWA NU TU DU THO NTU NI NWO NHO
Are all the same words meaning MAN which is an ancient word that derives from the African MANI. The root of all of these variations is the word NI or NU which means SPIRIT or SELF. My aim is to clarify HOW these terms come to mean what they mean because there is a rich philosophy behind them. Ancient Africans aren’t Europeans. Their words actually mean something and is connected to a cosmology. African cosmology explains all of their concepts. That’s basic Africana studies 101 Again, ANI has nothing to do with a “pillar” being judged. Study what the ENA (Ani) is in African traditions and reevaluate your thesis.
-Asar
Posted by AswaniAswad (Member # 16742) on :
I have a question about egyptian language how do we know how there sounds were. Like for example in Ethiopic we have Ha,Hu,He,Ha,H,Ho do they have similar sounds just like aramaic,arabic,and hebrew or is it more similar to Cushitic,Omotic,Chadic, or what. I have never heard anyone speak clear words its like a European or American speaking arabic not saying the words right.
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by AswaniAswad: I have a question about egyptian language how do we know how there sounds were. Like for example in Ethiopic we have Ha,Hu,He,Ha,H,Ho do they have similar sounds just like aramaic,arabic,and hebrew or is it more similar to Cushitic,Omotic,Chadic, or what. I have never heard anyone speak clear words its like a European or American speaking arabic not saying the words right.
Simple, you do what every Egyptologist, amateur or professional, does. First you depend on the latest spoken stage of the language - Coptic (modern Egyptian); secondarily, if unsuccessful with the optimum choice, you look for the word in question in related languages - when none of these are available, you settle for writing it in 'shorthand' as it is written:
The Optimum method:
River
Notice the Coptic equivalent. The word survives intact from its ancestral tongue and so we know that 'jr (water)' is actually pronounced "eioor" eye.oor - no guessing, no speculation necessary...
The Nile
This word also survives intact, unchanged from the ancient tongue, so we know that 'eir-ao' is actually pronounced "eiero" eye.air-oh...
Milk
We know now for certain that this word 'jrt.t' is actually pronounced "erwte" air.roh.tay...
Note: While the Egyptian scribes used brevity in their writings by often eliminating the writing of vowels, the Ethiopic scribes went in the opposite direction by indicating the vowels for each consonant; H = Ha, Hu, He, etc...makes for a very large alphabet!
Posted by humanityb (Member # 14404) on :
pm for info.
Posted by humanityb (Member # 14404) on :
They could pull autosomal dna from any egyptian [ancient or otherwise] and compare it with a database of twa/batwa populations to see if there are shared markers and solve any connection once and for all.Why they refuse to do so I'll never know and goes to show the deeply entrenched racism within egyptology because every other ancient population,maygars,scythians,minoans et al etc have been tested this way.
The khoi-san groups in south africa are also called twa/ba-twa/aba-twa/ovatwa/vatwa, - a general term for pygmy like people. If I remember correctly there it translates as the "no cattle people","the harmless people""the red people" the twa refer to the bantu as "animals without hooves",The zulu call the twa - Aba-Twa.
The khoi-san [bushmen] are also frequently refered to in South African History texts as the Baroa, there is an area of lesotho called 'Lekhalong la Baroa' [bushmans pass].The singular form is Moroa.
"As to the origin of the name Barwa or Baroa — for the words are really the same, we have little knowledge of what it meant,still less of its derivation" ...
"The Basuto call the Bushmen Baroa, the meaning of which is uncertain. It may mean " men of the south ".
"They were also the first tribe that had inhabited these areas after the Ba-Roa-a , (Baroa-a), (Baroa- people who are very light and fine in complexion). "
"The Marosa, or Baroa Bushmen, are found of the same description as those just beyond the boundaries of' the colony"
In other african countries the twa are also refered to as "Akka or achua/wochua/watwa/batwa/bachwa [singular form in Matua] from the root tua/twa and ALSO wa-hwa/rua/ba-wa,mur-ra,ba-rua... again BA-ROA [apparently meaning the south] and ba-roa comes up quite often.The theme seems to be TWA OR BA-ROA.
The earliest mention of the name occurs in the valley of the nile in the ancient city of Napata on a stela inscribed by King Hasiotef,here carved is the name of a neighbouring town "Baruwa" changed to Meroe.[Reisner]
Also [A Voyage to Abyssinia by Father. Jeronimo Lobo (1735).] Quoting an ancient writer. "Voffius, who is of opinion that Goiam is not Meroe, affirms, that the river row called Mareb is the Aftaboras of the ancients ; and that the capital of Meroe is a city, Baroo or Baroa, fitu- ated in the fixteenth degree"
From a text I was reading last night on the Congo [Duarte Lopes] from 1599 states: [f = s]
"The Nile flows north- ward from the Ifland of Meroe, in Egypt, watering thofe regions where barrennefs and folitude prevail. Now as it only rains in Congo and Ethiopia at certain feafons of the year, the overflow of the rivers is not extraordinary, being no new event. But in the far of and dry countries, like Egypt, where (excepting Alexandria and that region), it never rains, it is confidered marvellous that fuch an enormous quantity of turbid water fhould come from diftant regions, at a fet time, and without fail ; thus refrefhing the earth, and giving food to man and beaft. On this account the ancients facrificed to the Nile, calling it, as is told in the 4th Book of Ptolemy,[indecipherable translation] or the good god."
There was an odd myth I recall that the twa were responsible for the pyramids,I doubt it was meant literally.Rather I see it as the twa in general are attributed as miners/metalworkers [esp of iron] and I think what they mean is that their wealth was produced by the miners [twa] and led to the creation of the pyramids.We still equate pgymy/dwarves et al with mining in folklore/myth ....the seven dwarves etc.Meroe being famed for it's iron workers.
If anyone wants journal articles on the twa notify me,perhaps we should be putting put our efforts into the study of Meroe.Someone with more knowledge of linguistics would be helpful.
There also tribes like the Meru who connect themselves to meroe, and a Madagascan empire ruled by people called the Baroa.
[c] Kvr.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Thanks for the information. The material you provide may help us to get a better handle on these ancient people.
Pgymy people are found or were found on every continent. Remnants of the languages spoken by these groups are presently lost because they were killed off in Europe, Asia and the Americas.
In relation to the Anu, working with a friend of mine Vamos Toth Bator, I discovered that many of the ancient Anu were pushed up to the North Pole . Thus we have the stories of the little people from Europe who had riches (pots of gold), or lived in great cities. People who if captured would pay great ransoms to be returned to their people.
Do you know anything about the Pygmies and the names given them by other African groups?
.
quote:Originally posted by humanityb: They could pull autosomal dna from any egyptian [ancient or otherwise] and compare it with a database of twa/batwa populations to see if there are shared markers and solve any connection once and for all.Why they refuse to do so I'll never know and goes to show the deeply entrenched racism within egyptology because every other ancient population,maygars,scythians,minoans et al etc have been tested this way.
The khoi-san groups in south africa are also called twa/ba-twa/aba-twa/ovatwa/vatwa, - a general term for pygmy like people. If I remember correctly there it translates as the "no cattle people","the harmless people""the red people" the twa refer to the bantu as "animals without hooves",The zulu call the twa - Aba-Twa.
The khoi-san [bushmen] are also frequently refered to in South African History texts as the Baroa, there is an area of lesotho called 'Lekhalong la Baroa' [bushmans pass].The singular form is Moroa.
"As to the origin of the name Barwa or Baroa — for the words are really the same, we have little knowledge of what it meant,still less of its derivation" ...
"The Basuto call the Bushmen Baroa, the meaning of which is uncertain. It may mean " men of the south ".
"They were also the first tribe that had inhabited these areas after the Ba-Roa-a , (Baroa-a), (Baroa- people who are very light and fine in complexion). "
"The Marosa, or Baroa Bushmen, are found of the same description as those just beyond the boundaries of' the colony"
In other african countries the twa are also refered to as "Akka or achua/wochua/watwa/batwa/bachwa [singular form in Matua] from the root tua/twa and ALSO wa-hwa/rua/ba-wa,mur-ra,ba-rua... again BA-ROA [apparently meaning the south] and ba-roa comes up quite often.The theme seems to be TWA OR BA-ROA.
The earliest mention of the name occurs in the valley of the nile in the ancient city of Napata on a stela inscribed by King Hasiotef,here carved is the name of a neighbouring town "Baruwa" changed to Meroe.[Reisner]
Also [A Voyage to Abyssinia by Father. Jeronimo Lobo (1735).] Quoting an ancient writer. "Voffius, who is of opinion that Goiam is not Meroe, affirms, that the river row called Mareb is the Aftaboras of the ancients ; and that the capital of Meroe is a city, Baroo or Baroa, fitu- ated in the fixteenth degree"
From a text I was reading last night on the Congo [Duarte Lopes] from 1599 states: [f = s]
"The Nile flows north- ward from the Ifland of Meroe, in Egypt, watering thofe regions where barrennefs and folitude prevail. Now as it only rains in Congo and Ethiopia at certain feafons of the year, the overflow of the rivers is not extraordinary, being no new event. But in the far of and dry countries, like Egypt, where (excepting Alexandria and that region), it never rains, it is confidered marvellous that fuch an enormous quantity of turbid water fhould come from diftant regions, at a fet time, and without fail ; thus refrefhing the earth, and giving food to man and beaft. On this account the ancients facrificed to the Nile, calling it, as is told in the 4th Book of Ptolemy,[indecipherable translation] or the good god."
There was an odd myth I recall that the twa were responsible for the pyramids,I doubt it was meant literally.Rather I see it as the twa in general are attributed as miners/metalworkers [esp of iron] and I think what they mean is that their wealth was produced by the miners [twa] and led to the creation of the pyramids.We still equate pgymy/dwarves et al with mining in folklore/myth ....the seven dwarves etc.Meroe being famed for it's iron workers.
If anyone wants journal articles on the twa notify me,perhaps we should be putting put our efforts into the study of Meroe.Someone with more knowledge of linguistics would be helpful.
There also tribes like the Meru who connect themselves to meroe, and a Madagascan empire ruled by people called the Baroa.
[c] Kvr.
Posted by humanityb (Member # 14404) on :
Twa is a generalised term for pygmies within africa the following terms I listed are used: "Akka or achua/wochua/watwa/batwa/bachwa [singular form in Matua] from the root tua/twa and ALSO wa-hwa/rua/ba-wa,mur-ra,ba-rua... again BA-ROA [apparently meaning the south].They of course also have their own tribal names too, the pygmies assoc. with the egyptian courts if I recall are the Akka [tiky-tiky].
some interesting notes on the term tiki - " Tiki-Tiki, Tiiki- Tiiki ; that is a name for the Little People ;". The range of Tiki- Tiki extends to Polynesia, where it is used for ancestral dwarf gods, one of which, the dwarf Creator, Tiki, resembles the dwarf Creator, Ptah, of the Egyp- tians.' " Tiki " and " Tilki," seem to be a shortening of those names for dwarfs and dwarf-gods, so familiar to the ancients. The Tilka-Tiika (a name not hitherto known to anthropologists) are very small dwarfs in South Africa, who, they say are a perfectly distinct race from the Bushmen. Through his tutor, Dinuzulu informed me that the Zulus have killed them nearly all off, as " they are not fit to live." The Kaffirs greatly dread them as most dangerous wizards and magicians."
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Isn't the pygmies an San two different goups? .
quote:Originally posted by humanityb: Twa is a generalised term for pygmies within africa the following terms I listed are used: "Akka or achua/wochua/watwa/batwa/bachwa [singular form in Matua] from the root tua/twa and ALSO wa-hwa/rua/ba-wa,mur-ra,ba-rua... again BA-ROA [apparently meaning the south].They of course also have their own tribal names too, the pygmies assoc. with the egyptian courts if I recall are the Akka [tiky-tiky].
some interesting notes on the term tiki - " Tiki-Tiki, Tiiki- Tiiki ; that is a name for the Little People ;". The range of Tiki- Tiki extends to Polynesia, where it is used for ancestral dwarf gods, one of which, the dwarf Creator, Tiki, resembles the dwarf Creator, Ptah, of the Egyp- tians.' " Tiki " and " Tilki," seem to be a shortening of those names for dwarfs and dwarf-gods, so familiar to the ancients. The Tilka-Tiika (a name not hitherto known to anthropologists) are very small dwarfs in South Africa, who, they say are a perfectly distinct race from the Bushmen. Through his tutor, Dinuzulu informed me that the Zulus have killed them nearly all off, as " they are not fit to live." The Kaffirs greatly dread them as most dangerous wizards and magicians."
Posted by humanityb (Member # 14404) on :
Both are refered to as "twa" and 'ba-roa' by bantu populations across africa suggesting a connection.They do share some markers with twa/pgymy groups,but no they are not pygmies.
Posted by humanityb (Member # 14404) on :
"Baruwa" apparently translates as "letter" in some african languages.
"The Egyptian spelling of this name is actually Ibrmk, probably meaning "god of the Meroites" -Meroitic mk/god; abr/ibr/man, meroites.cf. Barua, Egyptian spelling of the city of Meroe, Meroe was a Greek rendition."
Baroa/Barua/Baruwa may simply mean 'man' and refer to those groups being the most indigenous to africa.
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
Bes - (Leopard), a dwarf god; a god of Sudani (Nahasou) origin, who wears the skin of the leopard round his body. He was the god of:
1) music, dancing, and pleasure
2) war and slaughter
3) childbirth and children.
In late times he was symbolic of the destructive and regenerative powers of nature, and was the lord of all typhonic creatures; Copt. Bes
--Budge; dictionary
Posted by Asar Imhotep (Member # 14487) on :
Any variation of TWA is just a variant of TU which is a variant of NU as mentioned earlier. They all mean 'man' but not in the physical sense. If one takes the time to study the cosmologies of all these nations, one will come to realize that the name for 'man' is the same name for 'God'. This is based on the philosophy that that 'man' is really 'God' having a human experience.
Man is the universe in miniature. TU/DU/NU/SU are all roots for the primordial essence, the infinite Creator. A N-TU, is the possessor of TU (primordial substance/spirit). MU-N-TU is an intelligent being that possess spirit. A good book on these break downs is MUNTU by Jaheinz Jahn and Conflict of Minds by Jordan Ngubane.
TU/TA/TWA are the same word. In Indaba My Children, the Sangoma priest Credo Mu-Twa (who is Zulu-Bantu) discusses how in the oral traditions of the priesthood of South Africa, it is believed that the Ba-Ntu tribe is the oldest tribes in Africa and it is from them whom all Africans have spread out.
The linguistic evidence supports his claim as the earliest people are the TWA or BA-TWA which is a variant of BA-TU (Ba-Ntu). TU, again, is just a variant of NU and the A-NU (Vanhu, Hanu, Ani, etc.) are the ones who spread and populated the earth and their names are still with the people to this day:
Inuit (Canada) the people
Ani (U.S.) the people
Yunwiya Ani (Cherokee) the people of the mountains
Taino (Caribbean) the people
Ainu (Japan) the people
Anu (Africa & Asia) the people
Bantu, Watu, Batu, Vatu, Antu, Anthu, Hanu, Vanhu, Pawatu, Batho the people (of Ta-Mery /Egypt)= all of these are names for the people in the “Bantu” languages
I contend that the "god" PTAH is actually more than likely pronounced BA-TWA or BA-TUA(H) and refers to a people and not just an individual. A lot of African mythological figures are actually representing a group of people and not a person. The Yoruba and the various groups of Rwanda are notorious for this.
All and all, I still contend that the root on one level means people, but refers to "god" in miniature.
Bes (the earliest form of Ptah)
Nemhotep (Old Kingdom) Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Clearly this thread belong to the Ancient Egypt section as no academic scholarship is in support of any of the crap exposed above in this thread.
Since not one source is cited. My point is already done.
Real scholarship, discussed in the Green Sahara thread linked below for example. Show us that populations in that part of the world, had a much higher level of mobility than today's. There was a lot of population movements within that region related to episodes of drought and return of rains (vegetation, animals, humans).
This image clearly show that the region of Ancient Egypt/Sudan, from which the AEian civilization descend (aka they came from the South), is the product of various population movements mostly related to climate change along the years.
For example, as noted in other threads, many of the Ancient Egyptians culture (astronomical knowledge, religion, monumental sculpture, ceramic, exploitation of sorghum, etc) have their root in Nabta Playa, in the western desert.
So there wasn't one fixed indigenous population living along the Nile which didn't move with climate change (along with vegetation and animals). Ancient Egypt was made up of various groups of people (which may include Twa like people) who settled along the Nile as the Green Sahara was becoming a desert again.
Posted by Child Of The KING (Member # 9422) on :
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Clearly this thread belong to the Ancient Egypt section as no academic scholarship is in support of any of the crap exposed above in this thread.
Since not one source is cited. My point is already done.
Please remember this is a 2009 thread that was stickied for old time member Nay Sayer who was looking for info on the Anu.
Although I find no substance in a Twa / Anu relationship or identity I see no reason to move this thread because of the analysis in it that are useful and resourceful for AE language geeks.
I have never sat down and digested this thread. I will now read it carefully in light of moving it to AE. Should it not violate the Constitution it will stay here because I want to protect all threads placed on E to avoid the uncensored anarchy of AE (even if broached before I became mod back in Sep/Oct 2014 wheneever.
BTW technically anytime words are sourced from a lexicon or dictionary that in fact is a citing of source.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by ausar: BTW technically anytime words are sourced from a lexicon or dictionary that in fact is a citing of source.
Don't be ridiculous...
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: [QB] Clearly this thread belong to the Ancient Egypt section as no academic scholarship is in support of any of the crap exposed above in this thread.
One new poster comes in, says very little and then all of the sudden this merits three stickied threads an obsolete "Egyptology" from a hundred years ago
Now comparitively look at the Egyptology stickies vs. Ancient Egypt stickies, there are many more titles topical to Egypt (although it seesm favoring picture oriented threads by mena)
But anyway why not post the serious stuff in Ancient Egypt section now?
Having no moderator is better than having someone trying to over-control everybody
.
Well ARtU everything is ridiculous to you. I wonder why.
As for Nay Sayer he's been here longer than the Lioness. Fact is Nay Sayer is of the veteran class of 2005-2009.
For all I care both of you jump in the Lake of Fire.
Why drag this thread further down with OT BS? Is it because one of you is incompetent the subject and the other of you's goal has been to phuxup ES since she registered?
Now why answer either of these kvetchers when knowing from the start nothing I say matters to them anyway and they will just go on babbling?
BE ON NOTICE if you two don't post forum admin comments in the provided stickies I will delete them not bothering to save them for you in the other forum so why not just post your rants on ES AE and save me the trouble.
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