This is a response from the race of the Egyptians thread I saw some false things about ginger mummies so I am addressing it here since that thread is locked.
Ten hair samples of Copts from the 8th-10th century AD from the district of Sayala, and 11 hair samples of Egyptian mummies dated to the 18th-25th dynasty were examined for their structural properties compared with recent hair samples, using x-ray diffraction and infrared spectroscopy. The attenuated total reflection technique, which allows multiple reflection infrared spectroscopy on native hair, reveals the structural integrity of the ancient hair samples. X-ray diffraction studies using chromium-alpha radiation confirmed the infrared results. Signs of dehydration could be observed but no conformational changes, indicating the structural stability of hair protein over thousands of years. If you find the whole study he addresses that Ginger most likely did not have his hair changed or deteriorated - as there is no evidence to support that he did.
Also, A. Rae actually went and tested the mummy and said there was no dye used in the hair itself. Rae, A., "Dry human and animal remains: their treatment at the British Museum", Human mummies: a global survey of their status and the techniques of conservation, The Man in the Ice; vol. 3, 3-211-82659-9.
The only red hair in Africans is from Albinism:
Red or rufous albinism is a rare type of oculocutaneous albinism described, but not as yet fully investigated, in Africa and New Guinea. Twelve rufous albino subjects from 10 families participated in this preliminary study. The prevalence of rufous albinism was found to be approximately one in 8,580 among school children in the negroid population. The combination of the unusual red skin colour, ginger to reddish hair colour, low susceptibility to sun damage, and minimal visual problems, in affected individuals, suggested that they form a group which is distinct from the brown and other types of albinism. The mode of inheritance was found to be recessive. Tyrosinase assays showed that rufous albinos are tyrosinase positive and on electron microscopy studies normal melanosomes and melanocytes were observed in hair bulbs and skin. Visual evoked potential testing did not show the gross decussation abnormalities of the optic pathway detected in other types of albinism. Rufous albinism might be at one end of the spectrum of types of oculocutaneous albinism and, because affected people have such mild symptoms, their inclusion in this group might be debatable.
It is suggested in Evidence for Variable Selective Pressures at MC1R shows that red hair came about outside of the hot African climate due to natural selection - as red hair (Which is genetically associated with paler skin) would have been harmful in the African environment.
It directly says: We conclude that MC1R is under strong functional constraint in Africa, where any diversion from eumelanin production (black pigmentation) appears to be evolutionarily deleterious. An African Negro would never had Ginger hair - that had to have come from outside sources.
Henna never touched the hair of Ramses. Microscopic examination of the hair which has been carried out has shown conclusively that he had red hair. See K.A. Kitchen, "Pharaoh Triumphant: The Life and Times of Ramses II, King of Egypt" (1982, reprinted 1985).
Hair samples from 76 burials at Semna South (Sudanese Nubia) were examined using a variety of techniques.... Hair form analysis showed medium diameter and scale count; the curling variables were intermediate between European and African samples. There you see that there's a chance that they are Caucasoid-Negroid mixed.
The red-heads never existed in large numbers. They are a minority in the most common of areas today.
They entered about the time Ginger did.
They didn't traverse miles and miles from Africa. They originated in a central point (Outside of Africa) and expanded to China, Europe, India, the Middle East, and Africa too.
Why should anyone be surprised that you could find remains of people with red hair in kemet?the question should be, how and when did they get there,after all people did travel for all kinds of reasons sometimes as slaves,soldiers,merchants,deplomats and refugees.the same could be said of woolly haired black people found north of the medittarainean.
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
I was hoping you guys would ignore him.. This has been addressed ad nauseam..
quote:Originally posted by ackee: Why should anyone be surprised that you could find remains of people with red hair in kemet?the question should be, how and when did they get there,after all people did travel for all kinds of reasons sometimes as slaves,soldiers,merchants,deplomats and refugees.the same could be said of woolly haired black people found north of the medittarainean.
Exactly, I mean just becuase Egypt had red headed people does not mean the Egyptians were a White people. They were blacks. And Im confused as to why an Arab or supposed Arab would care abour Redheaded Egyptians...Last I checked Arabs were on the most part dark haired and the original Arabs were as black as the Hebesha peoples anyway.
Posted by thegaul (Member # 16198) on :
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ finally the right response.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
This guy is a nut. He still doesn’t get it. He has no understanding of how nature works and the process of Natural Selection.
White skin, light hair (blond/red head) and other Euro adaptive features are NOT naturally occurring in that of the world. It is just a wish by nut cases and bad scientist. The further away from the continent(Equatorial Africa) one gets the lighter the people are. It is just that simple and there is a scientific reason for that. That is why even in southern Europe blonds and red-heads are not natural occurring. In Southern Asia it is the same.
Only an idiotic racist will believe that Ramses was a natural red-head. It is fudge data.
If you read the race of AE thread – I said the only strategy left is to make the Somalians/Bejas/Ethiopian/Sudanese fall into the European ‘race” camp. Saying that AE was Nordic is so. . . .fuchked up!! Who will believe that sh1t
Listening/watching(video) Keita’s lecture/seminar work in the UK he stated that AE has limb characteristic(bone attachment thingy) that is found in over 50% of present day East Africans. But only 13% of West African/Diasporans. This is an indication that AE were NOT a West African ethnic group. However he also said that this trait is found in less than 4% of Euro Americans.
There is only one sensible conclusion – AE are indigenous to that part of the continent. They are STILL there as Bejas/Sudanese etc. They are NOT of West African stock. And are even further to Europeans. (And I am an E3a Diasporan)
They are indigenous Africans which in today’s social context will be classified as Black because of their black and brown skin.
Furthermore proof of their indigenousness are evident in the pre-dynastic civilization which clearly shows the evolution of the civilization. It was NOT transplanted from Arabia or Europe. There wasn’t anything similar or comparable in Europe and Arabia at the time.
Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
-Red hair is artificially found in Africa due to Dying of the Hair with plants henna etc. -Red or light colored hair at the roots is also found in Africa. -Red hair usually in children but also in Adults is also sometimes a sign of Malnutrition Africa. -In natural mummifications or simple decomposition sometimes the body changes to the color of the environment - THe color of Sand. I am sure you have seen Pitch black "Bog Bodies" that have been naturally mummified. Or other Mummies in Southern America that have also been Mummified that have Bright orange hair. Also some of the fur and hair fibers of mummified animals in Egypt ALSO have Orange / Reddish hair. Its really a DUMB argument.
A red haired European is the palest one that you get. They wouldn't survive in the Sahara. Red haired people cannot even get tans.
Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
I would also state that they successfully performed DNA testing on the Tocharians and found them to NOT Be Western Europeans at all but rather a mixture of different Asians groups, most of them East and S.E. Asian. Including that man with 'red hair', also the Woman they both so wanted to be European. Try again.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
The better argument for a Western Asiatic presence in NE Africa is that of the mummy Ginger rather than Ramses.
Not sure why we would be talking about a Pharoah that lived post Libyan and Hyksos rule of Egypt.
By then you are looking at significant foreing influence. ie: Horse drawn chariots.
Posted by arabegypt (Member # 16469) on :
Do you have any evidence of this?
Colored hair and eyes are due to sexual selection - as in many cultures they are believed to be the most attractive. Light skin is adaptive for Vitamin-D and light skin would be lighter as there is less sunlight.
Microscopic evidence has proven that Ramses did not, in fact, color his hair and that it was truly red that he was born with. I posted a scientific data sheet that proved this. And you call it "Racist," "idiotic," and "fudge data." You, sir, just don't want to believe that there was a red-headed pharoh.
YOU are the idiotic racist.
More evidence: Microscopic inspection of the roots of Ramesses II's hair proved that the original color of the king's hair was once red which suggests that he came from a family of redheads. This has more than just cosmetic significance; in ancient Egypt, people with red hair were associated with the god Seth, the slayer of Osiris, and the name of Ramesses II's father, Seti I, means "follower of Seth." Bob Brier, The Encyclopedia of Mummies, Checkmark Books, 1998., p.153 Bob Brier, Egyptian Mummies: Unravelling the Secrets of an Ancient Art, William Morrow & Co. Inc, New York. 1994. pp.200-201
You would have to be a moronic, racist coward to deny all the evidence that Ramses the Great did, indeed, have red hair naturally. You are fueled by outdated [nonscientific] claims and other Negrocentric bull**** that is easily defeated by the simple microscope.
Furthermore, the Egyptians began to mix with Negroes as time went on - thus, the only true data is from the pre-dynastic Egyptians, and one has been discovered with red hair - another tomb has been discovered with black sea cultural items.
quote:
See the following for more details about hair,apperance, and genetic studies on mummies.
From: Rogers, Spencer Lee, _Personal identification from human
remains_ 1987, "Hair often survives for a considerable time after
death and can be recognized as to color and to some extent texture. A
study in which hair was buried experimentally in the soil for a two
year period revealed that there was no appreciable change until after
one month, but it became streaked and brittle after one year. Two
years was found to be the maximum duration of Caucasian hair buried
underground." (p.8) On the same page it reads: "The color of eyes
during life cannot be determined from their appearance on a cadaver
since all eyes become a greenish brown shortly after death."
Please note that the Egyptians used special methods to PRESERVE THEIR BODIES after death. They DID NOT bury them in the dirt.
Your quote is quote irrelevant - and Ramses II didn't have visible eye color, not that it would matter if it was brown anyway.
quote:Here is a relevent study about DNA from mummies:
DNA decay rate in papyri and human remains from Egyptian archaeological sites.
Marota I, Basile C, Ubaldi M, Rollo F.
The writing sheets made with strips from the stem (caulis) of papyri (Cyperus papyrus) are one of the most ingenious products of ancient technology.
We extracted DNA from samples of modern papyri varying in age from 0-100 years BP and from ancient specimens from Egypt, with an age-span from 1,300-3,200 years BP.
The copy number of the plant chloroplast DNA in the sheets was determined using a competitive PCR system designed on the basis of a short (90 bp) tract of the chloroplast's ribulose bisphosphate carboxylase large subunit (rbcL) gene sequence.
The results allowed us to establish that the DNA half-life in papyri is about 19- 24 years.
This means that the last DNA fragments will vanish within no more than 532-672 years from the sheets being manufactured. In a parallel investigation, we checked the archaeological specimens for the presence of residual DNA and determined the extent of racemization of aspartic (Asp) acid in both modern and ancient specimens, as a previous report (Poinar et al. [1996], Science 272:864-866) showed that racemization of aspartic acid and DNA decay are linked.
The results confirmed the complete loss of authentic DNA, even in the less ancient (8th century AD) papyri. On the other hand, when the regression for Asp racemization rates in papyri was compared with that for human and animal remains from Egyptian archaeological sites, it proved, quite surprisingly, that the regressions are virtually identical. Our study provides an indirect argument against the reliability of claims about the recovery of authentic DNA from Egyptian mummies and bone remains. Copyright 2002 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
So what? They did not test Ramses II genetically, but they did microscopic testing on his hair.
quote: Vistors to museums around the world find it fasinating to see the mummified faces of the ancient dead. But although Egyptians mummies often very well preserved,with much of the soft tissue clinging to the skull,the faces inside the wrapping almost certainly are different than what the person must have looked like.
quote:
Nobody uses a mummy as the basis of their facial features anyway.
quote: The red hair, on the contrary, seems represented, at least by some individuals, in all known races, whether equatorial or boreal... From what precedes, we arrive at the conclusion that the colour of the hair alone is insufficient to characterise a race... p73-4
The Hair of Earlier Peoples, Don Brothwell and Richard Spearman p427-436 in Science in Archaeology, eds. D Brothwell and E Higgs 1963
That study is from the 60's, and they didn't have the genetic data to support that Negroes and Mongoloids that were color-haired were actually mixed with White European settlers or Tocharians.
Give me scientific evidence that Negroes can have naturally red hair without a form of albinism.
If you didn't already know - hair COLOR is not the only the way to distinguish hair, but flatness, thickness, roundness, and other methods can be used - these were ALL taken into consideration for Ramses the Great.
What about the historical evidence that Ramses II and his family (Specifically his father) were compared to Seth because of their red hair? It was obviously a family trait.
Ramses II's father (Seti I or something) was considered the follower of Seth because of his red hair.
Refute the cultural/historical proof of his red hair - and that they checked it in the ****ing microscope!
Posted by ackee (Member # 16371) on :
"Wow"@ Astenb i did'nt know they did any testing,i saw a documentary on the supposedly,k-zoid mummies of western China complete with fibers that supposedly matches Celtic wear.Have you checked it out? was on Discovery CH.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
^ I agree, the Chinese mummies are very interesting along with the Pyramid mounds. But then this is where Egyptian mummies significantly differ. It is rather obviously Caucasian influence in the Chinese mummie where as the Egyptian mummies look nothing like the Chinese mummies nor are the mummification techniques of any relatedness.
Compare the two different mummies - Caucasian Chinese -vs- Egyptian.
As for Ramses - not sure why it is of any relevance in terms of the ethnic makeup of Egypt? Good grief that is really late into Egyptian history.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
"You would have to be a moronic, racist coward to deny all the evidence that Ramses the Great did, indeed, have red hair naturally."
Thats really funny. Thanks for the laugh.
Plenty of Negro mummies though.
Ramses clearly had very dark skin.
Whats a Negro anyways? Do you mean Bantu features of something? Sounds like colonial White peole's thinking. Are you really Arab or European? Do Arabs think like White colonials?
I have a hard time believing that when the Upper Egyptians re-unified Egypt and expelled the Hyksos invaders that they didn't mix with the Semites and Libyan people that had invaded Lower Egypt.
The Gene pool of Lower Egypt has had an Asiatic presence since the Holocene era.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
quote:Originally posted by ackee: Why should anyone be surprised that you could find remains of people with red hair in kemet?the question should be, how and when did they get there,after all people did travel for all kinds of reasons sometimes as slaves,soldiers,merchants,deplomats and refugees.the same could be said of woolly haired black people found north of the medittarainean.
Exactly, I mean just becuase Egypt had red headed people does not mean the Egyptians were a White people. They were blacks. And Im confused as to why an Arab or supposed Arab would care abour Redheaded Egyptians...Last I checked Arabs were on the most part dark haired and the original Arabs were as black as the Hebesha peoples anyway.
Arabs don't have Red Hair? Huh? Okay, so please tell me what an Arab is? I am confused by Afronuts and White colonialists.
The Middle East is just what it applies - in the Middle. You know what happens in the middle - it gets over run by invaders over and over again. From Europe, From Africa, From Asia.
Waves upon waves of conquests, invasions, migrations, etc.
You guys make me laugh.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
Compare the Chinese mummies to Egyptian ones. Note the skin color, hair and facial features.
Clearly it obvious the African from the European.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
^ In my opinion Ramses has predominantly African features. Mouth, Skin, curly hair, shape of the head. Having foriegn genes such as Red Hair wouldn't surprise me at all.
Ugly bastard if you ask me.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
This guy sounds like celts. Celt is that you?
---- from arabegypt Do you have any evidence of this?
Colored hair and eyes are due to sexual selection - as in many cultures they are believed to be the most attractive. Light skin is adaptive for Vitamin-D and light skin would be lighter as there is less sunlight.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Looking at the National Geographic link Sundjata posted(on the Minoans) is further proof what Marc et al is on to something. The further back you go the blacker are the “Mediterranean” people.
At 1hr 2min into the video they said they discovred a portrait of the Minoans, back in 1972?, it clearly showed black people as Minoans. These were dark skinned people with . . .afros.
Then when you look at the geography, these people had to be Africans. Even the Eurocentric narrator said the Minoans were influenced by Egypt. Clearly this was a group of one black people(Minoans) trading with another group of black people(AE).
Any logical person can see that the islands were ONE of several passageway into and out of Africa .
The North African sea (Mediterranean) was clearly occupied by black peoples . . . . even when you get onto the mainland Europe the people were dark skin/dark hair and dark eyed. . . .even up to today.
As I said only a nut will believe in a “red-haired Nordic Africans”. Get your own fuchking history!!!!
Better tactic is to separate East(and indegenous North Africans) from West Africans, that is a more sensible strategy.. . . .as some of these threads are attempting to do eg Somalids and Ethiopians are white. Brothas, hope you are up to the challenge. This coming from an E3a.. . .
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
@ Futhermore to demonstrate how idiotic you are . . . Arabegypt (whatever that means). R1a and R1b and I are NOT indigenous to Africa. So fool even IF Rameses had red-hair it is VERY VERY VERY unlikely he was European. Plus even IF his family was of foreign origin his subjects WERE Africans. And most definitely he considered himself a citizen of LAND OF THE BLACK, as so many other indegenous Pharoahs. He was Egyptian . . . first.
So what is your point????? Get the X#@!! outta here!!
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Why sanction the idea that Africans Do have red-hair. We are pulling at straws . . brotha. The test is simply bogus. More BS from Hawass and his people.
What did Hwass say in that BBC radio piece. . . ."AE were black but not negroes" some sh1t like that. He at least affirmed they were NOT Arabic.
quote:Originally posted by astenb: -Red hair is artificially found in Africa due to Dying of the Hair with plants henna etc. -Red or light colored hair at the roots is also found in Africa. -Red hair usually in children but also in Adults is also sometimes a sign of Malnutrition Africa.
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
xyyman wrote: ---------------------- Better tactic is to separate East(and indegenous North Africans) from West Africans, that is a more sensible strategy.. . . .as some of these threads are attempting to do eg Somalids and Ethiopians are white. Brothas, hope you are up to the challenge. This coming from an E3a.. . . ----------------------
I see why posters like rasol don't post anymore on these forums. With dumb hip hop listening African Americans posting idiocy on these boards the effort contributing is wasted.
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
I don't understand what the point is over the endless debate about whites and Arabs 'who were or were not' once black.
Are y'all trying to prove that blacks evolved into whites? Why are you degrading black skinned people like that?
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Why sanction the idea that Africans Do have red-hair. We are pulling at straws . . brotha. The test is simply bogus. More BS from Hawass and his people.
What did Hwass say in that BBC radio piece. . . ."AE were black but not negroes" some sh1t like that. He at least affirmed they were NOT Arabic.
quote:Originally posted by astenb: -Red hair is artificially found in Africa due to Dying of the Hair with plants henna etc. -Red or light colored hair at the roots is also found in Africa. -Red hair usually in children but also in Adults is also sometimes a sign of Malnutrition Africa.
Did Hawas really say that? Black but not Negroes? Very interesting. It is rather colonialist language but I do understand the sentiment.
Negroe is what the White colonials called lowland Bantu people. Highland Ethiopians were not considered Negroes. The term was non-Negroid Blacks. There's a new term - Somalid.
Just heard about it here 2 days ago.
Very interesting.
Posted by Narmer Menes (Member # 16122) on :
I think Diop pointed out that Ramses was in his 90's when he died. Show me a white man beyond his 50s with ANY hair colour and this argument won't be stupid.
Posted by Narmer Menes (Member # 16122) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: There is only one sensible conclusion – AE are indigenous to that part of the continent. They are STILL there as Bejas/Sudanese etc. They are NOT of West African stock. And are even further to Europeans. (And I am an E3a Diasporan)
Why do you keep using genetic codes to validate yourself? 1) Have you been genetically tested to confirm the existence of e3a 2) Don't you have any other gene's? 3) Do you find it difficult to understand that classifying yourself with a genetic code as a label is the same as calling yourself a 'Negroid'.
Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
quote:Originally posted by ackee: Why should anyone be surprised that you could find remains of people with red hair in kemet?the question should be, how and when did they get there,after all people did travel for all kinds of reasons sometimes as slaves,soldiers,merchants,deplomats and refugees.the same could be said of woolly haired black people found north of the medittarainean.
Exactly, I mean just becuase Egypt had red headed people does not mean the Egyptians were a White people. They were blacks. And Im confused as to why an Arab or supposed Arab would care abour Redheaded Egyptians...Last I checked Arabs were on the most part dark haired and the original Arabs were as black as the Hebesha peoples anyway.
Arabs don't have Red Hair? Huh? Okay, so please tell me what an Arab is? I am confused by Afronuts and White colonialists.
The Middle East is just what it applies - in the Middle. You know what happens in the middle - it gets over run by invaders over and over again. From Europe, From Africa, From Asia.
Waves upon waves of conquests, invasions, migrations, etc.
You guys make me laugh.
Where did I say Arabs dont have red hair...? Learn how to read before spewing your emotions on to me son, I said Arabs for the most part are Dark haired...If you can prove other wise...Shut up. Also it is a fact that the original Arabs were black or what we would call black. That makes me an Afro-Nut becuase I point out that fact...Despite the fact that MANY PEOPLE on this board agree that the Arabs were originally black.
What is an Arab...come on dude...Resorting to strawmans...LOL. If your that uneducated that you cant understand what an Arab is me telling you wont help. Of course ILL GLADLY tll you what an Arab is when you tell me what an "Asiatic" is.
Posted by Freehand (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by of_gold: I don't understand what the point is over the endless debate about whites and Arabs 'who were or were not' once black.
Are y'all trying to prove that blacks evolved into whites? Why are you degrading black skinned people like that?
All of our ancesters were at one point dark skinned. Back beyond that time, it was pink or something like that.
At a point in time they also all had straight furr too.
I don't know what this has to do with the subject or get how this would be degrading to any modern people or how anyone's implying i'm one any full group [of people]'s ancestor -- or any group alive today and not in the future.
As far as the topic goes, yes its played out but i don't get how it has more to say about black people than do the individual posts and the topic have to say about their posters.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
quote:Originally posted by ackee: Why should anyone be surprised that you could find remains of people with red hair in kemet?the question should be, how and when did they get there,after all people did travel for all kinds of reasons sometimes as slaves,soldiers,merchants,deplomats and refugees.the same could be said of woolly haired black people found north of the medittarainean.
Exactly, I mean just becuase Egypt had red headed people does not mean the Egyptians were a White people. They were blacks. And Im confused as to why an Arab or supposed Arab would care abour Redheaded Egyptians...Last I checked Arabs were on the most part dark haired and the original Arabs were as black as the Hebesha peoples anyway.
Arabs don't have Red Hair? Huh? Okay, so please tell me what an Arab is? I am confused by Afronuts and White colonialists.
The Middle East is just what it applies - in the Middle. You know what happens in the middle - it gets over run by invaders over and over again. From Europe, From Africa, From Asia.
Waves upon waves of conquests, invasions, migrations, etc.
You guys make me laugh.
Where did I say Arabs dont have red hair...? Learn how to read before spewing your emotions on to me son, I said Arabs for the most part are Dark haired...If you can prove other wise...Shut up. Also it is a fact that the original Arabs were black or what we would call black. That makes me an Afro-Nut becuase I point out that fact...Despite the fact that MANY PEOPLE on this board agree that the Arabs were originally black.
What is an Arab...come on dude...Resorting to strawmans...LOL. If your that uneducated that you cant understand what an Arab is me telling you wont help. Of course ILL GLADLY tll you what an Arab is when you tell me what an "Asiatic" is.
How is asking you what an Arab is a strawman? Do you know what a strawman is?
Here's my 2 cents:
Arab no longer means anything in terms of continent of origin. It is almost equivalent to being a Jew. It is basically about culture rather than race of any kind and it certainly doesn't imply gene expression any more.
Learn Arabic, call yourself Mohammed something and wear a turbin and you can be an Arab too.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
^ Here's an example of a Black man who thinks he is an Arab.
Arab doesn't mean anything anymore.
So was Ancient Egypt an Arab nation.
The answer is NO.
No funny looking Turbins and names like Mohammed Ali.
Posted by thegaul (Member # 16198) on :
Posted by AbuAnu (Member # 16410) on :
I dont get how this proves what u are trying to say that the ancient egyptians where white or Arab sorry this one doesnt help u at all egyptwithoutarabs. I have seen pictures of Tigray {Northern Ethiopians} who have red hair young and old but its not common.
Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ Here's an example of a Black man who thinks he is an Arab.
Arab doesn't mean anything anymore.
So was Ancient Egypt an Arab nation.
The answer is NO.
No funny looking Turbins and names like Mohammed Ali.
Look this bickering is childish, we can talk like men/acedemics with out getting emtional.
Where did I say the Egyptians were Arabs? My response was to how ArabEgypt claims Egypt was "Arab" becuase of Redheaded mummies when the Arabs as in Arabian people of the peninsula are on average Dark Haired. Your're Idea of an Arab has to do with the Arab Islamic culture...Kind of like American/Anglo culture. Some people would say Black Americans are White becuase of our Anlgo/American culture...or some would say Greeks are NOT white becuase they are alien to the Anglo/American culture.
Anyway when you said Arab I was thinking of the Arabs in the land of Arabia.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Freehand:
All of our ancesters were at one point dark skinned. Back beyond that time, it was pink or something like that.
When, back in time, was modern humanity's original state pink...or something like that?
Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
Ugly bastard if you ask me. [/QB][/QUOTE] He was supposed to be an attractive play boy with like 200 kids...I mean is it possible to have 200 kids...?
Posted by Freehand (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Freehand:
All of our ancesters were at one point dark skinned. Back beyond that time, it was pink or something like that.
When, back in time, was modern humanity's original state pink...or something like that?
Wasn't referring to humanity, LOL did i just give you that caveman image?
I was refering to ancestors who weren't "human" and refering to before 2.5 mil back, before the origin of our genes coding for melanin.
So i don't get how people take it to be offensive that humans originated with dark skin. Heck, other beasts have pink skin. Before that origin point for the dark brown skin we have now, who knows, they could have had grayish skin like the dull skin color you see on some primates now.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Yo! Yo! Yo! You missed the point Brains(thunderbirds). See you have a thing for bro Rasol.. . .who can't think outside the box. What did someone say. "Well trained negroes"???
quote:Originally posted by argyle104: xyyman wrote: xyyman wrote: ---------------------- Better tactic is to separate East(and indegenous North Africans) from West Africans, that is a more sensible strategy.. . . .as some of these threads are attempting to do eg Somalids and Ethiopians are white. Brothas, hope you are up to the challenge. This coming from an E3a.. . . ----------------------
I see why posters like rasol don't post anymore on these forums. With dumb hip hop listening African Americans posting idiocy on these boards the effort contributing is wasted.
Posted by Freehand (Member # 10819) on :
i agree with him. I mean, "Better tactic is to separate East(and indegenous North Africans) from West Africans [....] this coming from an E3a".
Ah but laughter is good for the soul they say. Argyle doesn't even have to say anything under most of your posts he quotes and it'd be funny, with me at least that's less often the situation.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ Here's an example of a Black man who thinks he is an Arab.
You can be black and Arab.
Black is just an ethnonym refering to skin color and Arab, really, a culture.
Learn to use ur whole mind and not just your either-or option-based left side of the brain.
There is still the complete lack of evidence that any of the AE culture originated oustide of Africa.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
There was a link to the BBC site on one of these threads. I saved it as a *.wav file on one of my PC. Do a search for Hawass/BBC you may come across it.
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [qb] What did Hwass say in that BBC radio piece. . . ."AE were black but not negroes" some sh1t like that. He at least affirmed they were NOT Arabic.
Did Hawas really say that? Black but not Negroes? Very interesting.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
YES. I was tested E3a, thru the NG genographics project. Will do the MtDNA in the future. I suppose I DO have other genes but it cost about $400 for the test. I DO NOT use the word NEGRO to describe myself. I use the word African decendant with my peers and African American to others. Nuff said???? Yo Yo Yo
quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: There is only one sensible conclusion – AE are indigenous to that part of the continent. They are STILL there as Bejas/Sudanese etc. They are NOT of West African stock. And are even further to Europeans. (And I am an E3a Diasporan)
Why do you keep using genetic codes to validate yourself? 1) Have you been genetically tested to confirm the existence of e3a 2) Don't you have any other gene's? 3) Do you find it difficult to understand that classifying yourself with a genetic code as a label is the same as calling yourself a 'Negroid'.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
@ Narmer --- and I am comfortable in my blackness.
Posted by Freehand (Member # 10819) on :
lol, good one (tho i know where he's comin from with how peep's act in the here and now, i remember that comment of his too)
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Freehand: i agree with him. I mean, "Better tactic is to separate East(and indegenous North Africans) from West Africans [....] this coming from an E3a".
Ah but laughter is good for the soul they say. Argyle doesn't even have to say anything under most of your posts he quotes and it'd be funny, with me at least that's less often the situation.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ Here's an example of a Black man who thinks he is an Arab.
You can be black and Arab.
Black is just an ethnonym refering to skin color and Arab, really, a culture.
Learn to use ur whole mind and not just your either-or option-based left side of the brain.
There is still the complete lack of evidence that any of the AE culture originated oustide of Africa.
Culture? I will have to think about that. There was technology that originated from outside of Africa, some pottery types, some textiles, some of the people are clearly Western Asian.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Freehand: i agree with him. I mean, "Better tactic is to separate East(and indegenous North Africans) from West Africans [....] this coming from an E3a".
Ah but laughter is good for the soul they say. Argyle doesn't even have to say anything under most of your posts he quotes and it'd be funny, with me at least that's less often the situation.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ Here's an example of a Black man who thinks he is an Arab.
You can be black and Arab.
Black is just an ethnonym refering to skin color and Arab, really, a culture.
Learn to use ur whole mind and not just your either-or option-based left side of the brain.
There is still the complete lack of evidence that any of the AE culture originated oustide of Africa.
You just repeated what I said. Arab is now a culture like Jew is. There is a stereotypical Jew and the same is true for Arabs.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
Getting back on topic. One very curious thing about Ramses having Red hair is that none of his depictions shows him with Red Hair.
Now that is very weird. The same depictions of Ramses with Black hair shows Nubians with Blonde and Red hair.
Now why wouldn't Egyptians show his lovely Red hair?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Now you talking!!! Nubians with blonde hair: After all they are cacausoids .....right Arabegypt.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ This is ridiculous. This topic has been covered repeatedly before; it's too bad the arabhead hasn't caught on.
Egyptology: Hanging in the Hair
by Anu M'bantu and Fari Supia
F0R YEARS, EGYPTOLOGY has been fighting a losing battle to hold onto an ancient Egypt that is Caucasian or, at worst, sun-tanned Caucasian.
At the 1974 UNESCO conference Egyptology was dealt a fatal blow. Two African scholars wiped the floor with 18 world-renowned Egyptologists. They proved in 11 different categories of evidence that the ancient Egyptians were Africans (Black). Following that beating, Egyptology has been on its knees praying to be saved by science. Their last glimmer of hope has been the hair on Egyptian mummies.
The mummies on display in the world's museums exhibit Caucasoid-looking hair, some of it brown and blonde. These mummies include Pharaoh Seqenenre Tao of the 17th dynasty and the 19th dynasty's Rameses II. As one scholar put it: "The most common hair colour, then as now, was a very dark brown, almost black colour although natural auburn and even rather surprisingly blonde hair are also to be found."
Many Black scholars try skillfully to avoid the hair problem. This is a mistake!
In 1914, a white doctor in Detroit initiated divorce proceeding against his wife whom he suspected of being a "closet Negro". At the trial, the Columbia University anthropologist, Professor Franz Boas (1858-1942), was called upon as a race expert. Boas declared: "If this woman has any of the characteristics of the Negro race it would be easy to find them . . . one characteristic that is regarded as reliable is the hair. You can tell by microscopic examination of a cross-section of hair to what race that person belongs."
With this revelation, trichology (the scientific analysis of hair) reached the American public. But what are these differences?
The cross-section of a hair shaft is measured with an instrument called a trichometer. From this you can get measurements for the minimum and maximum diameter of a hair The minimum measurement is then divided by the maximum and then multiplied by a hundred. This produces an index. A survey of the scientific literature produces the following breakdown:
San, Southern African 55.00
Zulu, Southern African 55.00
Sub-Saharan Africa 60.00
Tasmanian (Black) 64.70
Australian (Black) 68.00
Western European 71.20
Asian Indian 73.00
Navajo American 77.00
Chinese 82.60
In the early 1970s, the Czech anthropologist Eugen Strouhal examined pre-dynastic Egyptian skulls at Cambridge University. He sent some samples of the hair to the Institute of Anthropology at Charles University, Prague, to be analyzed. The hair samples were described as varying in texture from "wavy" to "curly" and in colour from "light brown" to "black". Strouhal summarized the results of the analysis:
"The outline of the cross-sections of the hairs was flattened, with indices ranging from 35 to 65. These peculiarities also show the Negroid inference among the Badarians (pre-dynastic Egyptians)."
The term "Negroid influence" suggests intermixture, but as the table suggests this hair is more "Negroid" than the San and the Zulu samples, currently the most Negroid hair in existence!
In another study, hair samples from ten 18th-25th dynasty individuals produced an average index of 51! As far back as 1877, Dr. Pruner-Bey analyzed six ancient Egyptian hair samples. Their average index of 64.4 was similar to the Tasmanians who lie at the periphery of the African-haired populations(1).
A team of Italian anthropologists published their research in the Journal of Human Evolution in 1972 and 1980. They measured two samples consisting of 26 individuals from pre-dynastic, 12th dynasty and 18th dynasty mummies. They produced a mean index of 66.50.
The overall average of all four sets of ancient Egyptian hair samples was 60.02. Sounds familiar . . ., just check the table!
Since microscopic analysis shows ancient Egyptian hair to be completely African, why does the hair look Caucasoid? Research has given us the answers.
Hair is made of keratin protein. Keratin is composed of amino acid chains called polypeptides. In a hair, two such chains are called cross-chain polypeptides. These are held together by disulphide bonds. The bulk of the hair, the source of its strength and curl, is called the cortex. The hair shafts are made of a protective outer layer called the cuticle.
We are informed by Afro Hair - A Salon Book, that chemicals for bleaching, penning and straightening hair must reach the cortex to be effective. For hair to be permed or straightened the disulphide bonds in the cortex must be broken. The anthropologist Daniel Hardy writing in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology, tells us that keratin is stable owing to disulphide bonds. However, when hair is exposed to harsh conditions it can lead to oxidation of protein molecules in the cortex, which leads to the alteration of hair texture, such as straightening.
Two British anthropologists, Brothwell and Spearman, have found evidence of cortex keratin oxidation in ancient Egyptian hair. They held that the mummification process was responsible, because of the strong alkaline substance used. This resulted in the yellowing and browning of hair as well as the straightening effect.
This means that visual appearance of the hair on mummies cannot disguise their racial affinities. The presence of blonde and brown hair on ancient Egyptian mummies has nothing to do with their racial identity and everything to do with mummification and the passage of time. As the studies have shown, when you put the evidence under a microscope the truth comes out. At last, Egyptology's prayers have been answered. It has been put out of its misery.
Add this to the fact that black African hair color is not always jet-black but comes in slightly lighter hues:
There are even Nubian people whose hair have brownish tinge. After the effects of mummification and thousands of years even their hair would turn red or yellow.
Oh, and I don't know how blonde and red hair is associated with 'Arabs' who also have black or dark hair no lighter than blacks.
Posted by arabegypt (Member # 16469) on :
This article is funny. Not only is it obviously written by Afrocentrists, but the thinly veiled rhetorical smirks and its claims that, all other features aside, race can be determined solely by this hair measure, are funny too. This hair measure is supposedly the same per race whatever the physical structure of the hair--yet strangely, people with a certain structure of hair (straight/wavy/Caucasians, straight/Asians, straight/Native Americans) seem to have pretty much the same number per type of hair.
Using this logic, we can argue that the physical and chemical tests that the apartheid government applied to South Africans to determine their race pretty much held water, even though often families would be separated because certain individuals had "black" hair while others didn't, and therefore must have belonged to separate races.
But what really got to me, was its allegation that the only reason Egyptian mummies had brown and blonde hair, or straight hair, was the process of mummification, and the hint that all Egyptians really had Sub Saharan African-type hair and that this was covered up by the racist Egyptologists. This is not true. One of the first scholars cited in that article said that Egyptians had dark brown, almost black hair, although occurrences of light brown or even blonde were not uncommon, and this is true. The modern Egyptians are the closest genetic descendants of the ancient Egyptians, and modern Egyptians do have mostly black hair, but many also have naturally occuring brown. I for instance have curlish (but not tightly curled/kinky) black hair, the same as my fathers, but my mother and my two brothers have straight hair ranging from light to dark brown, and save for maybe being 1/8 Turkish we're Egyptian. Wavy or curlish black or brown hair describes most Egyptians.
As for what goes on in UNESCO... I shouldn't start. The UN stopped being a movement for equality and became a movement for reverse racism and discrimination a long time ago. Durban, Durban 2, the 16-year resolution on Zionism, the reluctance to fight anti-Semitism or homophobia the same way it would attack offensive religious cartoonists, the ban on criticizing the Shariah or human rights violations in Islamic countries, the hundreds of resolutions against Israel and the handful on Darfur, demonizing Europe to no end and recognizing solely its role in the slave trade... it's effectively controlled by Middle Eastern and African countries with an agenda, backed up by ill-treated socialist states and political correctness.
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Wavy or curlish black or brown hair describes most Egyptians.
Stop squirming you fraud. If that's the case, then why make a thread suggesting or implying that most had "red hair"? If you agree that red hair would be EXTREMELY rare in both ancient and modern Egypt, how does it contradict anything we or the above article proposes? Your goal is not to identify ancient Egypt with modern Egypt but to separate Egypt all together from Africa. This is why you make threads stating Ethiopians are "Black Whites", etc.. You post some of the dumbest things and you honestly can't believe most of what you say. Point being of course that you're just in denial. You're scared and call Ethiopians white because you realize ancient Egyptians are related to them and Ethiopians, Somalis, etc are deemed "Black" by most standards. You realize the false dichotomy so you try to white wash half of Africa. Get the hell out of here! You haven't addressed one thing in the above article in terms of refuting the central points (that AE hair is well within the range of African variability and outside the scope of European variability).
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by arabegypt: This article is funny. Not only is it obviously written by Afrocentrists, but the thinly veiled rhetorical smirks and its claims that, all other features aside, race can be determined solely by this hair measure, are funny too. This hair measure is supposedly the same per race whatever the physical structure of the hair--yet strangely, people with a certain structure of hair (straight/wavy/Caucasians, straight/Asians, straight/Native Americans) seem to have pretty much the same number per type of hair.
First of all, even if the article was written by 'Afrocentrics', Egypt is IN Africa and the ancient Egyptians ARE Africans. Second, you fail to refute any of the actual scientific points of the article. The point is that 'race' does not really exist because of the variations that exist among different populations, however that the Egyptians had hair no different from other black peoples indigenous to the tropics is a fact.
quote:Using this logic, we can argue that the physical and chemical tests that the apartheid government applied to South Africans to determine their race pretty much held water, even though often families would be separated because certain individuals had "black" hair while others didn't, and therefore must have belonged to separate races.
Well, obviously there was mixture between the white settlers and the native black peoples so it's no surprise that some 'whites' had "black" hair.
quote:But what really got to me, was its allegation that the only reason Egyptian mummies had brown and blonde hair, or straight hair, was the process of mummification, and the hint that all Egyptians really had Sub Saharan African-type hair and that this was covered up by the racist Egyptologists. This is not true. One of the first scholars cited in that article said that Egyptians had dark brown, almost black hair, although occurrences of light brown or even blonde were not uncommon, and this is true. The modern Egyptians are the closest genetic descendants of the ancient Egyptians, and modern Egyptians do have mostly black hair, but many also have naturally occuring brown. I for instance have curlish (but not tightly curled/kinky) black hair, the same as my fathers, but my mother and my two brothers have straight hair ranging from light to dark brown, and save for maybe being 1/8 Turkish we're Egyptian. Wavy or curlish black or brown hair describes most Egyptians.
And again, you obviously ignored the part that "Sub-Saharan" African hair varies in texture and includes the curly or wavy forms I just showed above. Also dark brown pigment is also not unusual among blacks. And "Sub-Saharan" is a false term anyway because blacks are native to *all* of Africa including the Sahara and north of it. But you are correct that modern Egyptians like the rural Fellahin best represent their ancient ancestors.
quote:As for what goes on in UNESCO... I shouldn't start. The UN stopped being a movement for equality and became a movement for reverse racism and discrimination a long time ago. Durban, Durban 2, the 16-year resolution on Zionism, the reluctance to fight anti-Semitism or homophobia the same way it would attack offensive religious cartoonists, the ban on criticizing the Shariah or human rights violations in Islamic countries, the hundreds of resolutions against Israel and the handful on Darfur, demonizing Europe to no end and recognizing solely its role in the slave trade... it's effectively controlled by Middle Eastern and African countries with an agenda, backed up by ill-treated socialist states and political correctness.
The above is a red-herring and has NOTHING to do with the simple FACT that the ancient Egyptians were black.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: Stop squirming you fraud. If that's the case, then why make a thread suggesting or implying that most had "red hair"? If you agree that red hair would be EXTREMELY rare in both ancient and modern Egypt, how does it contradict anything we or the above article proposes? Your goal is not to identify ancient Egypt with modern Egypt but to separate Egypt all together from Africa. This is why you make threads stating Ethiopians are "Black Whites", etc.. You post some of the dumbest things and you honestly can't believe most of what you say. Point being of course that you're just in denial. You're scared and call Ethiopians white because you realize ancient Egyptians are related to them and Ethiopians, Somalis, etc are deemed "Black" by most standards. You realize the false dichotomy so you try to white wash half of Africa. Get the hell out of here! You haven't addressed one thing in the above article in terms of refuting the central points (that AE hair is well within the range of African variability and outside the scope of European variability).
Indeed. 'Arabegypt' is desperate to the point of stupidity. He knows that the ancient Egyptians were black Africans and had more in common (in appearance and culture as well as genetically) with Ethiopians and other East Africans than with any 'Arabs' which is why he is desperate to white-wash Ethiopians! LOL Even the typical white supremacists would roar with laughter at the idea of Ethiopians being "extremely dark" 'whites'! LMAO Posted by Ebony Allen (Member # 12771) on :
There are white supremacists who believe Ethiopians were white, Djehuti. Also I went to mathilda's blog. I posted a link that clearly showed Egyptians with brown skin and many of them wearing afros in a painting. My post is not even on there. I wonder why that is? She knows the truth and is afraid.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
^ Mathilda doesn't claim that Egyptians were not Black. She claims that they were not a predominantly Black population. Basically a mixed population. There is of course truth to that but not to the extent she claims. She actually shows disappointment with the current evidence which I find interesting. For instance, she is still disappointed that E3b has not been proven to be of Meditteranean origins. She clearly states this disappointment in her blogs. She is like many that clearly tries to draw a line between West African and East.
Politics in science never works out.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
quote:Originally posted by arabegypt: This article is funny. Not only is it obviously written by Afrocentrists, but the thinly veiled rhetorical smirks and its claims that, all other features aside, race can be determined solely by this hair measure, are funny too. This hair measure is supposedly the same per race whatever the physical structure of the hair--yet strangely, people with a certain structure of hair (straight/wavy/Caucasians, straight/Asians, straight/Native Americans) seem to have pretty much the same number per type of hair.
Using this logic, we can argue that the physical and chemical tests that the apartheid government applied to South Africans to determine their race pretty much held water, even though often families would be separated because certain individuals had "black" hair while others didn't, and therefore must have belonged to separate races.
But what really got to me, was its allegation that the only reason Egyptian mummies had brown and blonde hair, or straight hair, was the process of mummification, and the hint that all Egyptians really had Sub Saharan African-type hair and that this was covered up by the racist Egyptologists. This is not true. One of the first scholars cited in that article said that Egyptians had dark brown, almost black hair, although occurrences of light brown or even blonde were not uncommon, and this is true. The modern Egyptians are the closest genetic descendants of the ancient Egyptians, and modern Egyptians do have mostly black hair, but many also have naturally occuring brown. I for instance have curlish (but not tightly curled/kinky) black hair, the same as my fathers, but my mother and my two brothers have straight hair ranging from light to dark brown, and save for maybe being 1/8 Turkish we're Egyptian. Wavy or curlish black or brown hair describes most Egyptians.
As for what goes on in UNESCO... I shouldn't start. The UN stopped being a movement for equality and became a movement for reverse racism and discrimination a long time ago. Durban, Durban 2, the 16-year resolution on Zionism, the reluctance to fight anti-Semitism or homophobia the same way it would attack offensive religious cartoonists, the ban on criticizing the Shariah or human rights violations in Islamic countries, the hundreds of resolutions against Israel and the handful on Darfur, demonizing Europe to no end and recognizing solely its role in the slave trade... it's effectively controlled by Middle Eastern and African countries with an agenda, backed up by ill-treated socialist states and political correctness.
Hmm, you didn't at all address my question. Why is it that Ramses is depicted with Black hair in wall paintings and Nubians at the same time are depicted with Blonde and Red hair? I have never seen any drawing of Ramses showing Red hair but plenty of Nubians.
Not sure how that makes sense. I am not saying he didn't have Red hair because it wouldn't support your premise even if he had blue eyes and blonde hair. You are talking about a single individual that doesn't represent the Egyptian population. But I am curious. Why didn't they make pictures of the guy with Red hair?
Posted by Momma_Dukes (Member # 14252) on :
actually it proves they used henna on their hair before death.
egyptians were not black.
they refered to blacks as barabarians and even painted ancient pics of them and they looked nothing like the egyptians were painted.
they were painted have a profile of a black perons color, with chubby cheeks, a round nose, big round lips, fatter ears and short black hair.
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by Momma_Dukes:
egyptians were not black.
they refered to blacks as barabarians and even painted ancient pics of them and they looked nothing like the egyptians were painted.
they were painted have a profile of a black perons color, with chubby cheeks, a round nose, big round lips, fatter ears and short black hair. [/QB]
The Geographical Origins and Population Relationships of Early Ancient Egyptians
Professor S.O.Y. Keita Department of Biological Anthropology Oxford University
Professor A. J. Boyce University Reader in Human Population Oxford University
"Art objects are not generally used by biological anthropologists. They are suspect as data and their interpretation highly dependent on stereotyped thinking. However, because art has often been used to comment on the physiognomies of ancient Egyptians, a few remarks are in order. A review of literature and the sculpture indicates characteristics that also can be found in the Horn of (East) Africa (see, e.g., Petrie 1939; Drake 1987; Keita 1993). Old and Middle Kingdom statuary shows a range of characteristics; many, if not most, individuals depicted in the art have variations on the narrow-nosed, narrow-faced morphology also seen in various East Africans. This East African anatomy, once seen as being the result of a mixture of different "races," is better understood as being part of the range of indigenous African variation".
Djheuti,for get what white supermacist think i have a Ethiopian friend with me right now who is roaing with laughter.He can't believe all the silliness,about dark skinned whites but it's too bad he won't register,thru fear of intmedation and rudeness.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ WTF?! What fear and intimidation is he referring to??! Does he mean the trolls in this forum, because those idiots don't have the brains to intimidate sh*t! LOL
quote:Originally posted by Ebony Allen: There are white supremacists who believe Ethiopians were white, Djehuti. Also I went to mathilda's blog. I posted a link that clearly showed Egyptians with brown skin and many of them wearing afros in a painting. My post is not even on there. I wonder why that is? She knows the truth and is afraid.
Okay, first of all those white supremacists who think Ethiopians were white are relatively few and only represente a fringe (the wackiest) of white supremacists. Mainstream white supremacy is not as dumb or as crazy. Second of all, why bother asking silly questions about why certain posts disappear on Mathilda's blog. The same reason why certain posts which display valid and accurate info dissappear from Dienekes' blog-- Mathilda like Dienekes are not interested in FACTS but only their racist ideology and wishful thinking.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ Mathilda doesn't claim that Egyptians were not Black. She claims that they were not a predominantly Black population. Basically a mixed population. There is of course truth to that but not to the extent she claims. She actually shows disappointment with the current evidence which I find interesting. For instance, she is still disappointed that E3b has not been proven to be of Meditteranean origins. She clearly states this disappointment in her blogs. She is like many that clearly tries to draw a line between West African and East.
Politics in science never works out.
Indeed politics and more specifically social ideology such as racialism never works out in science and reality.
Also, the only truth to Egyptians being a mixed population is MODERN day Egypt. Throughout pharaonic times there was hardly a significant presence of foreigners to call the general populace 'mixed', with the majority of natives living in Upper Egypt. Only in since the 'Arab' invasions and the Ottoman Empire did the population majority shift to the north with significance of foreigners.
As for Mathilda's 'disappointment', she is obviously going to be disappointed with alot of findings in her scientific endeavor in her little scientific blog! LOL Posted by Ebony Allen (Member # 12771) on :
quote:Originally posted by Momma_Dukes: actually it proves they used henna on their hair before death.
egyptians were not black.
they refered to blacks as barabarians and even painted ancient pics of them and they looked nothing like the egyptians were painted.
they were painted have a profile of a black perons color, with chubby cheeks, a round nose, big round lips, fatter ears and short black hair.
Oh really? Not all blacks in Africa look the same physically. And it has nothing to with outside admixture from other races. And Egyptians were black.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Hmm, you didn't at all address my question. Why is it that Ramses is depicted with Black hair in wall paintings and Nubians at the same time are depicted with Blonde and Red hair? I have never seen any drawing of Ramses showing Red hair but plenty of Nubians.
Not sure how that makes sense. I am not saying he didn't have Red hair because it wouldn't support your premise even if he had blue eyes and blonde hair. You are talking about a single individual that doesn't represent the Egyptian population. But I am curious. Why didn't they make pictures of the guy with Red hair?
You waste your time Osirion. Obviously the fool is not interested in reality which is why he is so quick to point to the looks of a several millennia old corpse and NOT to any contemporary authentic potraits of the pharaoh when he was alive.
quote:Originally posted by Momma_Dukes: actually it proves they used henna on their hair before death.
egyptians were not black.
How so, When *ALL* the evidence shows the Egyptians were black??
Are you aware that staining gray hair with henna is a custom practiced by many black Africans today??
quote:they refered to blacks as barabarians and even painted ancient pics of them and they looked nothing like the egyptians were painted.
Really? Can you find us the exact Egyptian passage where they described 'blacks' as "barbarians"??
Also are you aware that some peoples to the south in 'Nubia' looked no different from the Egyptians??
quote:they were painted have a profile of a black perons color, with chubby cheeks, a round nose, big round lips, fatter ears and short black hair.
LOL So all black people must have those features you just described??
What about these 18th dynasty royal Egyptians (black people) below??
^ Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Momma_Dukes: actually it proves they used henna on their hair before death.
egyptians were not black.
they refered to blacks as barabarians and even painted ancient pics of them and they looked nothing like the egyptians were painted.
they were painted have a profile of a black perons color, with chubby cheeks, a round nose, big round lips, fatter ears and short black hair.
What does your opinion about their race have to do with Ramses having red hair and that some how proves all Egyptians were of a particular racial heritage? That is the point of this thread. I don't really care what you call the Ancient Egyptians as long as you recognize that they were African and not European or Arabs or any other people besides East African people. Obviously they weren't White Libyans or Sea People, or Phoenicians or Sumerians, etc, etc, etc.
Where I come from they are simply rather good looking Black people. Not sure where you come from so your opinion is pointless to me.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ According to her, black people have "round noses, bulging lips, and chubby cheeks", but there are plenty of ancient Egyptians who had those features.
Here are just a small of sample of Egyptian royals:
But what are we to make of Africans who are black but don't have such features? There are peoples in Sudan to Ethiopia and Somalia as well as in West Africa who don't have such features but are obviously black.
Posted by arabegypt (Member # 16469) on :
quote:"First of all, even if the article was written by 'Afrocentrics', Egypt is IN Africa and the ancient
Egyptians ARE Africans."
Yeah, geography =/= race
Egypt is in Africa. Africa is a continent and black is a race. Egypt's happening to be in Africa doesn't make it black anymore than Syria's being in Asia would make Syrians Chinese, just because Mongoloids are the dominant race in that continent, or blacks the majority race in Africa.
The Berbers who have been indigenous to North Africa for thousands of years are Caucasoid, are considered by others to be Caucasoid and regard themselves as Caucasoid. If you said they were black they would profoundly disagree with you. It's the same with the Egyptians.
North and Sub-Saharan Africa are divided by the largest, driest, and most oppressive desert to be found anywhere in the world.
So, Egypt's being in Africa or Egyptians being termed Africans, as in residents of geographical Africa, does nothing to prove we're black.
quote:"Second, you fail to refute any of the actual scientific points of the article. The Egyptians had hair no
different from other black peoples indigenous to the tropics is a fact."
No, I criticized its flawed logic in my last post, which you must have read in a haste to conclude that I did not address any of its actual 'scientific' points.
The most obviously fallacious argument is the one that Egyptians do not naturally have brown or blonde or straight hair, and that this is only because of mummification.
quote: Well, obviously there was mixture between the white settlers and the native black peoples so it's no
surprise that some 'whites' had "black" hair.
There was little or none. Racemixing was strictly illegal in South Africa, between whites and blacks anyway. The government was more tolerant of nonwhite racial mixing, although it was still technically illegal.
Egyptian DNA shows primary affinities with Middle Eastern and other North African populations. Modern Egyptians are the closest genetic descendants of the ancient Egyptians. And Egyptians do not consider themselves black. Pretty much the only people who calls us black, are Afrocentrists.
quote: And again, you obviously ignored the part that "Sub-Saharan" African hair varies in texture and includes the curly or wavy forms I just showed above. Also dark brown pigment is also not unusual among blacks. And "Sub-Saharan" is a false term anyway because blacks are native to *all* of Africa including the Sahara and north of it. But you are correct that modern Egyptians like the rural Fellahin best represent their ancient ancestors.
I already told you that Egyptian hair is, on average, not kinky. It does not curl tightly. Most Sub-Saharan Africans have tightly curled hair. There is the rare occurrence of straight or wavy hair, especially in East Africa where there has been a great deal of Caucasoid intermixing, but Egyptian and Sub-Saharan hair are different.
Most Egyptians have black hair the same way almost all Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Samoans, or Hawaiians have black hair. This does not make us black.
Blacks are certainly not native to all of Africa. I've already given you links that discuss the genetics of North Africans/Berbers, Egyptians, and East Africans, who are not completely black.
And at the end of the day--I am half Fellahi myself, and no one in my family looks black. In truth, without any hint of racial prejudice, the Fellahi half of my family is more Mediterranean Caucasoid-looking than the Turkish/Lower Egyptian half. My father was born in central Egypt. He has a thin nose and my curlish black hair, and hazel eyes and a tanned complexion no darker than an Italian brown. You can say I'm just trying to "whitewash" myself or that I'm a self-hating black or a racist or a "coconut" black on the outside and white on the inside or whatever. It's just the truth, and the vast majority of everyday Egyptians, as well as Egypt's own Egyptologists and archaeologists, who are accused of racism by Afrocentrists, would agree with me.
The Secretary General of the Egyptian Supreme Council of Antiquities has said, ""Tutankhamun was not black, and the portrayal of ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it."
Now, it's no secret that many people at the far south of the Egyptian border are very dark in complexion and have African facial features. It's no secret that a great deal of racial mixing occurred at the south, with the peoples of the modern Sudan. I freely accede that some, but not all, of the individuals you put in your photos have some black DNA, but the truth remains that they are simply not representative of the majority of Egyptians, any more than an Egyptian of some European extraction with blue eyes and blond hair would be representative of the average Egyptian. Egypt is a large country, and it sure looks like you've done a bit of cherry-picking here. ;-)
Here you can clearly see what Egyptians of all socioeconomic backgrounds look like. You can clearly see that black Egyptians are a minority. I live in the middle of the capital. You can't pick a few photos of Egyptian Fellahin from the far south (also with the understanding that many millions of Egyptians widely dispersed could be described as 'fellahin') and use them to say the Egyptians are 'black.'
Posted by arabegypt (Member # 16469) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: Stop squirming you fraud. If that's the case, then why make a thread suggesting or implying that most had "red hair"? If you agree that red hair would be EXTREMELY rare in both ancient and modern Egypt, how does it contradict anything we or the above article proposes? Your goal is not to identify ancient Egypt with modern Egypt but to separate Egypt all together from Africa. This is why you make threads stating Ethiopians are "Black Whites", etc.. You post some of the dumbest things and you honestly can't believe most of what you say. Point being of course that you're just in denial. You're scared and call Ethiopians white because you realize ancient Egyptians are related to them and Ethiopians, Somalis, etc are deemed "Black" by most standards. You realize the false dichotomy so you try to white wash half of Africa. Get the hell out of here! You haven't addressed one thing in the above article in terms of refuting the central points (that AE hair is well within the range of African variability and outside the scope of European variability).
Indeed. 'Arabegypt' is desperate to the point of stupidity. He knows that the ancient Egyptians were black Africans and had more in common (in appearance and culture as well as genetically) with Ethiopians and other East Africans than with any 'Arabs' which is why he is desperate to white-wash Ethiopians! LOL Even the typical white supremacists would roar with laughter at the idea of Ethiopians being "extremely dark" 'whites'! LMAO
Wow, what a brilliant first post! Tell me, am I speaking to the future W DuBois or the future Stephen Hawking?
I have no need to be 'desperate' because no one, and I say no one, believes the ancient Egyptians were black, except for Afrocentrists. This entire school of thought is very 70s. It's not a matter of being racist. It's a matter of being factual. If anyone's got a political agenda here, it's the Afrocentrists, and that's racism.
At least your 'LOLs' and 'LMAOs' indicate that you think you've said something funny. They should follow every sentence you ever post from now on. Easily entertained guy, apparently.
Now run along.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by arabegypt: Yeah, geography =/= race
Correction. There is NO such thing as 'race'. Human phenotypic diversity is too great to arbitrarily divide into 'races'. This especially cranio-facial features which are the most varied morphological trait in the human species. Which is why long thin noses and faces does NOT make one "caucasoid" as such features have nothing to do with caucasus mountains or Europe, just as broad nose and broad lips has nothing to do with blacks skin or even Africans!
quote:Egypt is in Africa. Africa is a continent and black is a race. Egypt's happening to be in Africa doesn't make it black anymore than Syria's being in Asia would make Syrians Chinese, just because Mongoloids are the dominant race in that continent, or blacks the majority race in Africa.
'Black' is NOT a race but a description of skin color, specifically very dark skin coloring which is common among populations aboriginal to the tropics or subtropical environment. Yes Syrians and Chinese are both Asians but different in appearance and perhaps some lineages because they have been isolated from each other in opposite sides of the vast Asian continent. The same cannot be said for Africans since even though Africa is a large continent, populations have NEVER been seperate or isolated from each other for long periods of time like Asians have which is evidence by the very FACT that Egyptians share many genetic lineages in common with other Africans even so-called "Sub-Saharan" West Africans. It is LIE pure and simple to think that blacks live only in "Sub-Sahara" when blacks are native to *ALL* of Africa, the Sahara did not always exist as North Africa was once wet and fertile, and even after North Africa dried up, aboriginal populations (blacks) still survived deep in the desert as well as north of it!
quote:The Berbers who have been indigenous to North Africa for thousands of years are Caucasoid, are considered by others to be Caucasoid and regard themselves as Caucasoid. If you said they were black they would profoundly disagree with you. It's the same with the Egyptians.
Again, there is no such thing as "caucasoid". 'Berber' is a language group and associated culture that is indigenous to Africa. As such, it is not surprising that most Berber are in fact actually BLACK! Of course you refer to the light-skinned or 'white' looking Berbers of the Mediterranean coasts but they do not represent the majority and even they possess African lineages. The only reason why they are white is because they possess European maternal lineages as well.
This is how most Berber peoples look like:
Haratin (of Morocco)
Djerba (of Tunisia)
Tuareg (of Algeria)
Siwa (of Egypt)
quote:North and Sub-Saharan Africa are divided by the largest, driest, and most oppressive desert to be found anywhere in the world.
Yet again, the Sahara desert has NEVER been a barrier to populations just as the Australian Outback which is the second or third largest and most oppressive desert has never been a barrier to the (black) aboriginal populations who cross it all the time, you idiot!
quote:So, Egypt's being in Africa or Egyptians being termed Africans, as in residents of geographical Africa, does nothing to prove we're black.
Actually IT DOES, as is proven by all scientific studies: bio-anthropology, ethnology, and linguistics. NO Arabs even existed at that time let alone in Africa. Sorry.
quote:No, I criticized its flawed logic in my last post, which you must have read in a haste to conclude that I did not address any of its actual 'scientific' points.
Because YOU CAN'T
quote:The most obviously fallacious argument is the one that Egyptians do not naturally have brown or blonde or straight hair, and that this is only because of mummification.
Do you have poor reading comprehension or something? Some Africans do have brown hair but extremely dark. The embalming chemicals can lighten the hair further as well as loosen the texture considering that curly or even wavy hair is also natural to many blacks in certain regions of Africa such as the Nile Valley.
quote:There was little or none. Racemixing was strictly illegal in South Africa, between whites and blacks anyway. The government was more tolerant of nonwhite racial mixing, although it was still technically illegal.
You moron, I'm talking about the days before Apartheid! How do you explain the population known as Coulereds in South Africa?!! You are obviously ignorant in all matters of African history and not just Egypt.
quote:Egyptian DNA shows primary affinities with Middle Eastern and other North African populations. Modern Egyptians are the closest genetic descendants of the ancient Egyptians. And Egyptians do not consider themselves black. Pretty much the only people who calls us black, are Afrocentrists.
"Middle Eastern" is a purely geopolitic term and is completely invalid in objective geography! And as I have just explained you cannot seperate North Africa from 'Sub-Sahara'. The Egyptian DNA is simply African and held in common with other indigenous (BLACK) Africans.
^ Look at all the African E genetic lineages even in so-called 'Arab' Egyptians alone! The non-African lineages such as J only came from foreign invaders.
quote:I already told you that Egyptian hair is, on average, not kinky. It does not curl tightly. Most Sub-Saharan Africans have tightly curled hair. There is the rare occurrence of straight or wavy hair, especially in East Africa where there has been a great deal of Caucasoid intermixing, but Egyptian and Sub-Saharan hair are different.
And I already told you, you are WRONG!
Curly and wavy hair IS common among many East Africans and is completely indigenous! It has NOTHING to do with admixture from foreigners!! Which is why "caucasoid" does NOT exist!
Algerian
Somalian
quote:Most Egyptians have black hair the same way almost all Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Samoans, or Hawaiians have black hair. This does not make us black.
Of course, you stupid! What makes one black is very dark skin color such as the Egyptian man below
quote:Blacks are certainly not native to all of Africa. I've already given you links that discuss the genetics of North Africans/Berbers, Egyptians, and East Africans, who are not completely black.
YES blacks ARE native to *ALL* of Africa! What you give us is bullsh*t that has been REFUTED and DEBUNKED countless times on this forum before! North African genetics including Berbers and Egyptians are shared with 'Sub-Saharans' and NOT seperate as the chart above shows! and mixture in East Africa is VERY minimal!! There is actually more mixture in EUROPE than in Africa as a whole with one-third of all Europeans having African (black) ancestry!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:And at the end of the day--I am half Fellahi myself, and no one in my family looks black. In truth, without any hint of racial prejudice, the Fellahi half of my family is more Mediterranean Caucasoid-looking than the Turkish/Lower Egyptian half. My father was born in central Egypt. He has a thin nose and my curlish black hair, and hazel eyes and a tanned complexion no darker than an Italian brown. You can say I'm just trying to "whitewash" myself or that I'm a self-hating black or a racist or a "coconut" black on the outside and white on the inside or whatever. It's just the truth, and the vast majority of everyday Egyptians, as well as Egypt's own Egyptologists and archaeologists, who are accused of racism by Afrocentrists, would agree with me.
You are a modern Egyptian and modern Egypt is the result of a large influx of foreigners from Greeks and Romans (Italians), to Arabs, Turks, and Circassians!! Modern Egypt is an 'Arab' Republic!!
quote:The Secretary General of the Egyptian Supreme Council of Antiquities has said, ""Tutankhamun was not black, and the portrayal of ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it."
“Egyptians are not Arabs and are not Africans [in the racial sense] despite the fact that Egypt is in Africa."
Then Hawass contradicts you, since YOU are the one who claims Egyptians were Arabs!!
quote:Now, it's no secret that many people at the far south of the Egyptian border are very dark in complexion and have African facial features. It's no secret that a great deal of racial mixing occurred at the south, with the peoples of the modern Sudan. I freely accede that some, but not all, of the individuals you put in your photos have some black DNA, but the truth remains that they are simply not representative of the majority of Egyptians, any more than an Egyptian of some European extraction with blue eyes and blond hair would be representative of the average Egyptian. Egypt is a large country, and it sure looks like you've done a bit of cherry-picking here. ;-)
Then you contradict Hawass because he specifically states this:
" Of course, because we are the descendants of the pharaohs. If you look at the faces of the people of Upper Egypt, the relationship between modern and ancient Egypt is very clear. Habits in the villages, our celebrations when we finish a project, are similar to what they had in ancient Egypt. After someone dies, we make a celebration after 40 days, just like the ancient Egyptians did during the mummification process. Everything in our lives is like ancient Egypt."
Rural Upper Egyptians:
quote:
Here you can clearly see what Egyptians of all socioeconomic backgrounds look like. You can clearly see that black Egyptians are a minority. I live in the middle of the capital. You can't pick a few photos of Egyptian Fellahin from the far south (also with the understanding that many millions of Egyptians widely dispersed could be described as 'fellahin') and use them to say the Egyptians are 'black.'
Yes, who looks more like the ancien Egyptian royals below??-- The black rural Upper Egyptians or the non-black, light and fair-skinned Egyptians of other "socioeconmic backgrounds" as you say??!!
Tutankhamun
Thutmose III
LOL Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
This always Gets me. We have trolls who come out of no where and they make claims that are easily refuted and shown to be wrong. The only Good thing is that it keeps the Veterans sharp to spot and refute all there Nonsense. So Let us see how this ArabEgypt Character refutes these Facts:
Ancient Egyptian as an African Language, Egypt as an African Culture
Christopher Ehret Professor of History, African Studies Chair University of California at Los Angeles
Ancient Egyptian civilization was, in ways and to an extent usually not recognized, fundamentally African. The evidence of both language and culture reveals these African roots.
The origins of Egyptian ethnicity lay in the areas south of Egypt.
Sir Alan Gardiner: These were long-headed-dolicocephalic is the learned term-and below even medium stature, but Negroid features are often to be observed. Whatever may be said of the northerners, it is safe to describe the dwellers in Upper Egypt as of essentially African stock , a character always retained despite alien influences brought to bear on them from time to time." (pg. 392; Egypt of the Pharaohs 1966)
X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980).
Courtesy of James Harris and Edward Wente:
In terms of head shape, the XVIV and XX dynasties look more like the early Nubian skulls from the mesolithic with low vaults and sloping, curved foreheads.The XVII and XVIII dynasty skulls are shaped more like modern Nubians with globular skulls and high vaults.
The people who bear the greatest resemblence to the ancient Egyptians, at present, are the Nubians; and next are the Abyssinians; page 530
Edward Lane Manners and Customs of the Modern Egyptians
The period when sub-Saharan Africa was most influential in Egypt was a time when neither Egypt, as we understand it culturally, nor the Sahara, as we understand it geographically, existed. Populations and cultures now found south of the desert roamed far to the north. The culture of Upper Egypt, which became dynastic Egyptian civilization, could fairly be called a Sudanese transplant. Encyclopedia of Precolonial Africa, by Joseph O. Vogel, AltaMira Press, Walnut Creek, California (1997), pp. 465-472
Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues
A-M Mekota1, M Vermehren2
Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13
"Materials and methods In 1997, the German Institute for Archaeology headed an excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. At this time, three types of tissues were sampled from different mummies: meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and placenta. Archaeological findings suggest that the mummies dated from the New Kingdom (approximately 1550_/1080 BC)..... The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin."
What do you have to say. Free your mind
Peace
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Of course the Arab-head has nothing to say about all the scientific data and info above. He NEVER does. Instead, he will either just ignore it and perhaps this entire thread only to start another idiotic thread preaching the same nonsense of a non-black Egypt!
In the meantime, if the fool is still reading this thread my last question from my previous post still stands:
Who looks the most like the ancient pharaohs below??-- The black African looking Egyptians from the rural areas, or the non-black light and fair-skinned (foreign) people??
Mentuhotep
Amenhotep III
Hatshepsut
Ramses II (seriously doubt he's a natural red-head)
So which is it, 'Arabegypt'??
If you say the black more African looking ones look like these pharaohs, then you yield to the truth (defeat for YOU) and therefore admit to your error.. But if you say the non-black fair-skinned Egyptians look like these pharaohs, then you are only lying to yourself and your denial is to the point of insanity.
Pick your poison! Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
quote:Originally posted by arabegypt: You can clearly see that black Egyptians are a minority.
Black Egyptians do exist? My God! That is amazing. I didn't know that. What does that mean? Does that mean that Egyptian history needs to be included in teaching Black history? Doesn't matter if they are a minority or not. Blacks are a minority in America but we still have a Black history month, Martin Luther King day, Black history classes in our schools and a Black President! Oh thats right, even Egypt has had Black presidents you are just in denial about what is Black!
So if Black Egyptians are real then Egypt should be included in Black history? Its a part of their heritage?
Of course I am being sarcastic. Northern parts of Egypt are heavily mixed with foreign migrants. I don't see how you can deny that.
I am not Afrocentric but I do believe that Egypt was a predominantly Black civilization (Black in the sense that modern day Upper Egyptians are Black). I disagree with most Afrocentrics in that I believe in a Western Asiatic population since pre-dynastic times.
Egypt was clearly not an Arab civilization. Influences from Arabic world was minor since they were the underclass.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ You seriously just found out that black Egyptians still exist??!! So in all the years that you've been in this forum you haven't noticed the dozens of pics of modern black Egyptians that I and other folks (especially Doug) have been posting, or the fact that our old moderator Ausar is himself a black Egyptian as a Fellah of rural Upper Egypt??!
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
^ Did you not miss the point about me being SARCASTIC!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Yeah but by the time I saw it, it was too late to edit my post
quote:Originally posted by osirion: I am not Afrocentric but I do believe that Egypt was a predominantly Black civilization (Black in the sense that modern day Upper Egyptians are Black). I disagree with most Afrocentrics in that I believe in a Western Asiatic population since pre-dynastic times.
You believe in a Western Asiatic population present during predynastic times, yet as has been shown time and again in this board there is no evidence of such. As was noted here and here.
quote:Egypt was clearly not an Arab civilization. Influences from Arabic world was minor since they were the underclass.
Actually there wasno 'Arab' or Arabic culture in existence during the time of pharaonic culture so to use such an ethnic reference before any ethnic entity came about is illogical.
Posted by Ebony Allen (Member # 12771) on :
I'm just dying to see what he's going to say about those pictures, especially the one of Amenhotep III. That man is clearly black, brown skin, full lips even in his profile, and an afro.
Posted by e3b1c1 (Member # 16338) on :
the ancient mumies and egyptions were e1b1b1 get it to your black heads e1b1b1=civilization hope you understand it e3b1c1
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Actually there wasno 'Arab' or Arabic culture in existence during the time of pharaonic culture so to use such an ethnic reference before any ethnic entity came about is illogical.
Didn't great Jew correct you on this?
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
quote:Originally posted by e3b1c1: the ancient mumies and egyptions were e1b1b1 get it to your black heads e1b1b1=civilization hope you understand it e3b1c1
Not sure if you are trying to make a point for or against a Black population in Ancient Egypt. But I think most of us know E1b1b1 M35, etc,etc. Not sure how that says much of anything unless you are going by the new Meditid race classification.
Posted by Morpheus (Member # 16203) on :
^Who made that map?
The racialist propagandists never give up. Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Actually there wasno 'Arab' or Arabic culture in existence during the time of pharaonic culture so to use such an ethnic reference before any ethnic entity came about is illogical.
So do you have a better description for the Western Asiatic people of that time? We can call them Semites if you want since they spoke Akkadian. Or I can call them Hebrews which is what I prefer. But Arabic was the topic of this thread so I just carried it through.
Hammurabi:
Very much a Hebrew look to them just like we have come to see as a typical Middle Eastern appearance compared to that of East African people.
The Arab still looks the same. Same folks that are rulers of Egypt today and the primary population of Northern part of Egypt.
The Asiatic Hebrew people of Northern Egypt - many of whom were Jews that converted to the Coptic faith.
Quite a bit different than the Fellahin:
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Morpheus: ^Who made that map?
The racialist propagandists never give up.
It was worse than this a month ago before I started criticizing it. I think the author reads these threads.
Meditid. Very interesting description. That is mainstream's take on it I guess.
Posted by Morpheus (Member # 16203) on :
quote:Originally posted by osirion: So do you have a better description for the Western Asiatic people of that time? We can call them Semites if you want since they spoke Akkadian. Or I can call them Hebrews which is what I prefer. But Arabic was the topic of this thread so I just carried it through.
Hammurabi:
Very much a Hebrew look to them just like we have come to see as a typical Middle Eastern appearance compared to that of East African people.
The Arab still looks the same. Same folks that are rulers of Egypt today and the primary population of Northern part of Egypt.
I think Southwest Asian or Asiatic are good descriptive terms because they are regional and do not carry any unintentional racial baggage.
Terms like Arab and Hebrew refer to specific ethnicities indigenious to Southwest Asia.
Djehuti is right that Arabs did not exist as a distinct entity during Dynastic times.
The earliest recordings of an Arabic people are in Assyrian texts dating to around 850 B.C.
As far as ancient Northern Egypt is concerned Barry Kemp analyzed the remains of predynastic Northern Egyptians and concluded that they group more closely with Northeast Africans than with Levantine populations of the same time period.
Northern Egypt gained some Near Eastern/Asiatic influence overtime but it was primarily settled by tropically adapted ("Black") people in Dynastic times.
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
Meditid. Very interesting description. That is mainstream's take on it I guess.
I've never seen a scientific study use the word "Meditid" or any of the other sub-racial terms on that page. It is obvious that the webmaster and those associated with them made it up in order to assigned racial labels to genetic lineages without providing any justification for doing so.
In order for a term to have scientific value it must be defined and the concept proven to be valid by the rigors of science.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
How come this thread is allowed to stay here in Egyptology section? It is just a race bait thread!
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
This has been addressed ad nauseam.. 
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Why are you degrading black skinned people like that?
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Argyle doesn't even have to say anything under most of your posts he quotes and it'd be funny, with me at least that's less often the situation.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
You seriously just found out that black Egyptians still exist??!! So in all the years that you've been in this forum you haven't noticed the dozens of pics of modern black Egyptians that I and other folks (especially Doug) have been posting, or the fact that our old moderator Ausar is himself a black Egyptian as a Fellah of rural Upper Egypt??!
