Article from National Geographic website: Posted Jan 14, 2008
I’ll never forget attending opening night of the King Tut exhibit in Los Angeles in June 2005. As I approached the exhibit entrance with Elisabeth Daynes, the French sculptor who created a likeness of King Tut for the cover of National Geographic magazine, we passed a patch of animated demonstrators whose placards read “King Tut’s Back and He’s Still Black.” A few steps further I was informed by other National Geographic staff attending the event that Dayne’s sculpture, which she had traveled from Paris to see on display, was out of the show.
I was disappointed, but not surprised. Every time the magazine’s art department attempted to depict ancient Egyptians, we received letters complaining about their appearance. This was despite every effort of talented artists and hard-working researchers to be accurate and fair. For the King Tut reconstruction we went to the extreme of commissioning a second model by a team that was not informed of the identity of the skull cast we provided. Their results confirmed that the cover image was as reasonable as forensic reconstructions of individuals can be. One can quibble about the shape of Tut’s nose and ears, and the color of his eyes and skin, but hard bone determined his general appearance. Judging from the demonstrators outside the exhibit in Los Angeles, we were once again unable to please everyone.
The reasons for this dissatisfaction are complex. Confusing notions about ‘race’ and a concern that scholars ignore Africa’s contribution to civilization seem to be at the heart of it. There is still some debate about the skin color of ancient Egyptians, but most experts agree that, from Alexandria in the north to the Sudanese border, ancient Egyptians would have looked much as they do today.
Our story about ancient Egypt’s 25th dynasty in the February issue of National Geographic provides an opportunity to look again at questions about the appearance of ancient Egyptians and whether Egypt’s, ergo Africa’s, contribution to civilization has been ignored. If you’d like to comment on our story or this topic, here’s the place.
Before you respond on the skin color issue, I recommend that you review how scientists currently view race at http://www.understandingrace.org
Booo.... Nat Geo., still falling back, and trying to regroup, spin, and perpetrate.
Color is anybody's guess, but they whitewash their "version" of Tut with respect to his darkskinned iconography, for reasons which... "anybody could correctly guess".
No one with any sense buys their excuses.
This magazine has a long history of anthropological racism which they try to sweep under the rug.
Their strategic retreat continues.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Indeed. DENIAL seems to be the problem with Nat Geo...
They have all of these authentic ancient depictions of him and all they can say is "color is anyone's guess"?! LMAO @ these idiots!
Posted by Novel (Member # 14348) on :
National Geographic will continue to distort because they will face no serious repercussions. A few bold African Americans standing up for truth pales in comparison to the thousands of people who will enjoy the racial masturbation in National Geographic’s paragraphs. Stating that his color is a mystery, allows the readers to imagine him and other Ancient Egyptians in images closer of themselves.
(Aside) There is a solution to this problem with racist and supremacists. Unfortunately, modern people (particularly Africans and their descendents) are unwilling to initiate the solution. WE remain as elder parents who continue to reach out in discussion with children who are hateful and delusional sociopaths.
I once had the disturbing experience of having met a sociopath. He was young and enjoyed burning cats in shopping carts and milk carton containers.
Reasoning and discussion about the sick behavior did not dissuade him from wanting to feel mighty by burning kittens. Logic failed, appeals to simple compassion failed. Only force worked...restraints, isolation, and group reprobation.
Allowing such people free reign in the community only poisoned the community.
That is the lesson every decent person should take from history of the last few thousand years. Our permissiveness has brought us to where we currently stand. The solution is available, if we dare take it.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Unfortunately, modern people (particularly Africans and their descendents) are unwilling to initiate the solution.
I'm not that pessimistic.
I see a great deal of progress being made.
You have to view the battle for truth as never-ending, not as something you can win and force liars to stop ever lying again.
After all - Ancient Egypt was Black by self declaration during it's own history, by acknolwedgement of the contemporary Greek and Hebrew, and by European until the Ancient Model [as pinned by Bernal] was replaced by the Aryan model [of Eurocentrism].
Kemet was recognized as Black for 5,000 years, and was only claimed by Eurocentrists to be non-Black, within the last 300 years.
The Aryan model of history is dying.
Nat Geo is simply bearing painful witness to it.
Posted by Novel (Member # 14348) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Unfortunately, modern people (particularly Africans and their descendents) are unwilling to initiate the solution.
I'm not that pessimistic.
And that is reason why I enjoy reading what you write at Egyptsearch. Keep it up!
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Kemet was recognized as Black for 5,000 years, and was only claimed by Eurocentrists to be non-Black, within the last 300 years.
The Aryan model of history is dying.
Nat Geo is simply bearing painful witness to it.
Photos and text from National Geographic
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
lord of the two lands - ruler of both nubia and egypt
^ Now Ta-Wi, the two lands, [actually a name for Kemet throughout it's history] references Egypt and Nubia - Kemet and Kush (?)
Since when ?
This is a good example of history as propaganda war, and how it is waged.
It's very clear that the author feels that he is speaking to and ignorant audience, and therefore can make up whatever he choses.
Fake drawings, fake names, fake history.... make up whatever you want.
See who goes for it. Posted by yazid904 (Member # 7708) on :
rasol ullah,
You are being too emotional! You talk about made up name(s) and made up history but National Geographics has the raw data results, the representations, the CT scan, etc and that is positive. The problem is human interpretation (socio-cultural alien constructs-usually non African) laying their conclusions on an impressionable audience!
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
The author "knows" not feels he is talking to an ignorant audience.
even around the AfroOriented ones- they believe that there were two lands.
So Novel - Maybe I missed it, but, what is the solution again?!
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
This new alledged reconstruction of King Tut is even worst than the other one. What a pity, some people will do anything to white Blacks out of history.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
rasol
quote:
The Aryan model of history is dying.
Only in the minds of some posters on this forum.
.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ That's a curious statement, since you are the one who *praised* National Geo's condescending tribute to US Black History Month, to begin with.
quote:This new alledged reconstruction of King Tut is even worst than the other one.
I think it's the same one, shot from a different angle to make it look less ridiculous.
Two things noted before are to be emphasized.
Once again - it's soft features more than skeletal features that denote ethnic appearance.
This is why it's easy to give a skeletan a completely different ethnic look in a reconstruction.
This particular image does two curious things.
Whereas Tut [both his skeletan and authentic portrait] has a portruding mouth [aveolar prognathism], and and extremely long 'back of' head, a very typical [but not exclusive] African feature.
The reconstruction suppresses his mouth by extending the flesh part of his nose. [the nose comes out in a way that hides the portrusion of the mouth]. Meanwhile they lighten his skin by several shades over his iconography - and use the simple rationale that you can find people of that skin tone in Egypt today [you can find people of -any- skin tone in most any country today].
This makes him look ethnically ambiguous.
Actually there are very few skeletan that you can not reconstruct as either African or European looking, or even East Asian looking.
Skull based race catagories are bogus.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Astute observation Rasol. I've wondered why they made that reconstruction with such a long nose, but now that I realize it it does downplay the prognathism.
And you're correct that soft tissue goes a long way in judging someone's ethnic appearance.
By the way, I just realized that this fiasco from Nat Geo is some sort of condescending tribute to black history month! LOL
Of course the folks at Nat Geo don't find anything condescending about it, since most political racists are blind to their own racism.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger:
Myra, I assumed you scanned these images. I have the magazine but I don't have time to scan any pics though. Can you scan the few other photos like the Medjay archers and the predynastic seated Nubian female?
Notice the non-black Egyptians. Kenndo once hypothesized they could be 'Libyans', but I've seen enough Nat Geo depictions of Egyptians to know that those definitely are Egyptians. LOL
Nothing typically "negroid" about these images but look much like Egyptian depictions.
And they make this assumption on what? Her afro style hair? They apparently don't realize many Egyptians have such hairstyles. Also notice Kawit's face is no different from the Egyptian hairdresser.
Ah yes, Tiye. Of course her undeniably black looking face must be put in consideration of 'Nubian ancestry'. And what about her grandson Tut? If Tiye as Tut's grandmother was the only one in his family of Nubian ancestry then why does he still look so black-- assuming everyone else in his family was Egyptian??
Better yet, where are pictures of Tut's bust?!
Another one of my pet-peeves is how the media (not to mention Nat Geo) would always show Nefertiti's painted bust and only recently show Tiye's but never that of Tut is the most famous of all ancient Egyptian figures!! Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Actually it is retardedly funny how the only thing that they can do is rely on a handful of images of Nefertiti an unpainted images of Akhenaten to buttress their argument. However, when the colored black African images from the tombs of the 18th dynasty and the royal family are shown, including the talatat that have whole scenes of Egyptians in the traditional dark brown color, they claim it is symbolic. Symbolic of what? Soil? Well do-se-do, if we don't have the prize. If it is symbolic of soil and the nation was called KMT in homage to the BLACK soil, then that makes it symbolic of being BLACK don't it?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Correction. They would first point out that the Egyptians painted themselves as 'red' or reddish-brown as proof they weren't black making especial note of the images where the paint is faded. It is only when you point out to them the vast majority of preserved dark brown tones do they say that it was 'symbolic'.
Really, the more I look at Egyptian art, the more astounded I am that they were able to get away with white-washing Egypt! It's ridiculous!
This would be the same as trying to paint Classical Greeks as black (although some on this forum believe that) and make up all kinds of ridiculous excuses as to why most Greek iconography doesn't look black. Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: And they make this assumption on what? Her afro style hair? They apparently don't realize many Egyptians have such hairstyles. Also notice Kawit's face is no different from the Egyptian hairdresser.
Nothing typically "negroid" about these images but look much like Egyptian depictions.
National Geographic is probably comparing these images of her.
(2nd picture): This picture is a carved panel from the tomb of Queen Kawit, consort of 11th Dynasty King Mentuhotep II. In this picture, a servant offers her a cup of something to start her day as she undergoes her morning toilette. Housed at the Egyptian Museum; Room 48
.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Myra, I assumed you scanned these images. I have the magazine but I don't have time to scan any pics though. Can you scan the few other photos like the Medjay archers and the predynastic seated Nubian female?
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger: National Geographic is probably comparing these images of her.
(2nd picture): This picture is a carved panel from the tomb of Queen Kawit, consort of 11th Dynasty King Mentuhotep II. In this picture, a servant offers her a cup of something to start her day as she undergoes her morning toilette. Housed at the Egyptian Museum; Room 48
.
But I thought the painted picture on the right is of princess Kemsit. Unless they are the same person (?)
quote:
Yes and compare with this Egyptian batallion here:
By the way, I forgot to mention, that painted figure from the tomb of Niankh-Pepi carrying stuff who some of us always thought was the tomb owner but Takruri suggests might be a servant is now considered a 'Nubian' servant by Nat Geo! LOL
Even if he is a servant which I am now considering due to the manual labor he performs, how is he a 'Nubian'? He obviously has the appearance of an ordinary Egyptian.
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: on the right is of princess Kemsit. Unless they are the same person (?)
It's the same person.
Other burials at the temple:
The Tombs of the Royal Ladies; Seven women belonging to the royal circle, Neferu II, Tem, Ashayt, Henhenet, Sadhe, Kawit, Kemsit.
Pharaoh Mentuhotep II (2010 B.C.); daughter Princess Aushead. The drawing of Aushead was taken from her fathers tomb.
This is Kemsit
.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ So Kemsit and Kawit are both of her names? I did not know that.
As always, I appreciate the info!
Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: So Kemsit and Kawite are both of her names? I did not know that.
No. It's not the same person.
Seven women belonging to the royal circle: Neferu II, Tem, Ashayt, Henhenet, Sadhe, Kawit, Kemsit.
This is another royal lady:
Sarcophagus of Princess Ashayt; The princesses of the court of Mentuhoptep II were buried in elegant limestone sarcophaguses near the temple of pharaoh at Deir el-Bahari. The scenes are framed by hieroglyphic texts that list the goods offered to the ladies and wish them eternal well-being. Short inscriptions by each figure state the words said by the servants to the noble ladies of the court. Housed at the Metropolitan Museum.
.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Oh sorry. I understand now.
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
Fake drawings, fake names, fake history.... make up whatever you want.
To Appease and Amaze, thrill the black man on this February, cosmetically of course, was the game plan.
I see if they could just produce a tribute to Kush, and the 'nubian phaorohs' aswell, but no.
Of course, it's black history month, the one time of year blacks are appreciated in a sgnif level; black history is relegated to this month - negroes don't complain!
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Almost ALL of the women surrounding Mentuhotep were depicted as JET BLACK.
Now why is that?
It represented REPLENTISHMENT or the REBIRTH of the black nation from the South, with blackness referring to the fertile soil of the Nile that flows from THE SOUTH and the sacred mound of creation. Hence the BLACK WOMAN is symbolic and literal representation of the WOMB of the earth and represents the MOTHER of the SEED of the earth which comes forth from the gods and spread across the earth. It is from the black seed that arose the black nation KM.T and the nation is symbolized by the King as the risen seed and awakened conscious of the earth and the Queen, the mother of the nation who suckles and nurtures the new seed with her milk and provides new life for the black nation. All of this symbolism is seen in the various temples of ancient Egypt with the sacred mound and trinity of man, woman and child being the central feature of the holy of holies or inner sanctum of the temple. It is not only biological, cosmological and historical but it is also a KEY component of the national conscious of the people.
As I posted elsewhere
quote: Out of all the Queens and consorts of Mentuhotep, many have been labelled, by Europeans, as being "Nubian" because of being portrayed in a black complexion. They most likely were just Southern women, either from Egypt or maybe even further south. One notable example is Ashait, who is even labeled as an Ethiopian. So he seems to have surrounded himself with women from the south to renew the royal line.
The problem now is that the black nation has no inspired leadership (risen King on the mountaintop) who reflects the strength and power of the seed (black manhood, X) who can battle the forces of chaos, disease and destruction that are destroying the black nation (the family) and restore balance, peace and prosperity for the black nation.
quote:
Ashait 11th Dynasty Ashait was the wife of Mentuhotpe II who ruled during the 11th Dynasty. They were buried together in his very elaborate complex at Deir el-Bahri at Thebes. Reliefs in her tomb apparently show that she was Ethiopian of Negress. In her coffin, a hymn was found about the four winds which come from the four corners of the earth and are brought to Egypt by mythical maidens.
quote: Neferukhayet: She was the wife of Inyotef II. Aoh: She was a consort of Inyotef III. The mother of Mentuhotpe II. She was depicted with her royal son on a stela. Henite:She was the wife of Inyotef III. Henhenit: She was the wife of Mentuhotpe II and was buried in a vast mortuary complex of the King at Deir El-Bahri. Neferu: She was the Chief wife of Mentuhotpe II. Kawit: She was a royal companion of Mentuhotpe II. Her royal tomb contains beautiful and elaborate scenes of her toilet rituals! Her sarcophagus describes her as the "Sole Favorite of the King". Tem: She was a wife of Mentuhotpe II and believed to be the mother of Mentuhotpe III. Her tomb is one of the largest female grave sites ever found.The sarcophagus in her burial chamber was made of alabaster and sandstone. Sadek:She was a lesser wife of Mentuhotpe II. Ashait: She was a wife of Mentuhotpe II. She was buried with the King in his eleborate mortuary complex at Deir El-Bahri. Her tomb reliefs identify her as an Ethiopian. On her coffin, there was a beautiful hymn inscribed about the four winds which were brought to Egypt by mythical maidens. Nubkhas: She was a consort of Mentuhotpe II. Her tomb was discovered at Deir El-Bahri enclosed by boulders and rubble, probably the result of a landslide in ancient times. Kemsit: She was a royal companion of Mentuhotpe II. She was buried in the Kings' mortuary complex and was described on her sarcophagus as 'Sole Favorite of the King" she shared this title with many other consorts that were buried there. Neferukayt: She was a wife of Mentuhotpe II and the daughter of Princess Nebt who was the heiress of the Elephantine (an island in the Aswan). She was a highly educated woman and kept and extensive library of papyri and artworks in a huge museum.Imi:In some records, she is called Yem. She was a wife of Mentuhotpe III and the mother of his son, Mentuhotpe IV. Amunet: In some records she is also called Amuniet. She was a consort of Mentuhotpe II, and was buried in his royal mortuary complex at Deir El-Bahri
All of these women are noted also as being priestesses of Hathor, which signifies motherhood and nurturing.
Again, this symbolism of black skin color of the wives and Mentuhotep himself can only mean renewal, from the south and the production of children.
Hence we see Mentuhotep as a child colored in black suckling on the goddess, symbolic of the renewal of the line and the rebirth of the seed and victory over chaos, from the fertile black madonna, mother of the earth:
You must keep in mind that more than likely servants or any type of guards were probably in the sun quite a bit and were, therefore, going to be darker than they may normally be. Even the images and statues of the pharaohs which seem to be dark don't explain it thoroughly but to assume all were light skinned or dark skinned is fruitless. In truth, there was probably quite a bit of mixture even to the extent that National Geographic may not know fully.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:You must keep in mind that more than likely servants or any type of guards were probably in the sun quite a bit and were, therefore, going to be darker than they may normally be.
This statement is what is known as and apolegitic - > containing an apology or excuse for a fault, failure, insult, injury
The Ancient Egyptians were Blacks. It is not a fault, failure, or insult, and therefore your excuse is unnecessary, illogical, and worthless.
A single picture falsifies your apologia: Posted by Bastet*Loves*Ptah (Member # 13948) on :
It isn't an insult or meant to be anything other than common sense. When we are in the sun we get darker, that's a biological fact. How many artistic impressions of the servants or slaves who worked outdoors do you see as being lighter skinned? Egyptian sun is hot, we are constantly shielding ourselves. The photo you showed above certainly projects a darker skinned figure being served by the lighter but that isn't always the case. I'm not saying that is the exact reason but you cannot overlook the possibility that it exists. Even today's lighter skinned Egyptians can get quite dark when outdoors in the summer quite a bit. Are they black necessarily because their skin darkened? No. But I do believe that many in high positions were, in fact, black. But to claim that all were is, in itself, proposterous.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
The point is that being in the sun does not turn you jet black as a tan. The jet black color of the wives of Mentuhotep were meant to symbolize the BLACK soil, BLACK women from the south and the BLACK MOTHER of the new BLACK DYNASTY of Egypt, which was to result in the RESTORATION and RENEWAL of the BLACK NATION. Period. Being indoors/outdoors has nothing to do with it.
However, I agree that all ancient Egyptians weren't very dark, but the colors used in ancient Egyptian art has nothing to do with sun tans or being indoors. Women are painted yellow/black symbolizing mother nature (the sun and sky) or the black mound and womb of creation IN INNER AFRICA. This symbolism of women as yellow stems from the cosmology. Geb is the earth and he is depicted as a man with an erection having intercourse with the sky goddess Nut. Nut is the wind that takes the seed of Geb and spreads it to the four corners of the globe, taking it to the female reproductive system where it pollinates and produces new life. Ausar and Auset follow the same symbolism. Ausar is the risen earth or seed and Auset comes down and takes the seed from Ausar as a bird, after which she goes forth and pollinates the earth with the seed and brings forth new life. Therefore women represent mother nature and the womb, while men represent the earth and the seed. Therefore, men are painted medium to dark brown symboling the flesh of the earth and women are painted yellow symbolizing the sky, female reproduction and mother nature. The color of the men and the symbolic association with the people of Egypt and the FERTILITY of the soil which flowed from the sacred mound of creation in INNER AFRICA was established in the name of the country itself: KMT. BLACK. And all of this reflects the FLOW of creation, the FLOW of the Nile and FLOW of life for the country which COMES FROM THE SOUTH and brings FERTILE BLACK SOIL and FERTILE BLACK PEOPLE from the SOURCE OF CREATION MANKIND, INNER AFRICA.
And servants and rulers were BOTH portrayed in the same colors. Men were medium to dark brown and women yellow, whether they were servants or not.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:It isn't an insult or meant to be anything other than common sense.
You stated that servants are shown as dark and their masters as light.
In Kemet [Ancient Egypt] this is not true.
Here it is the queen who is dark and her Asiatic servants who are light... ^ In Ancient Kemet, Asiatics were servant classes - even *in their own mythology( [Hebrew mythology], they were *lighter skinned* servant or slaves to the Black Egyptians - again according to *their own* mythology.
This is so to the degree that the term Aamu which means Asiatic in mdw ntr Ancient Egyptian also meant servant.
quote: The photo you showed above certainly projects a darker skinned figure being served by the lighter but that isn't always the case.
It is you who claimed the case was the opposite, and offered the excuse of tanning.
The image shown falsifies your statement, which was in fact, and apologia, or and attempt to find a pathetic illogical excuse for all the dark iconography of Km.t..
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Egyptian sun is hot, we are constantly shielding ourselves.
Hence: "the original population of the sahara was Black" - Cavelli Sforza/History and Geography of Human Genes.
" The basal epithelial cells [of Egyptian mummies] were packed with melanin" - 1997, German institute for archeology.
This is exactly why *all native peoples* of ancient Egypt are melanoderms, ie - Blacks - and so adapted to the saharan climate.
Like this:
The reason there are so many non-Blacks in Egypt TODAY is that they are descendant from "Asiatics" and not "Ancient Egyptians".
This fact, may be politically unacceptable for someone like Hawass who claims that he does not think the Ancient Egyptians *were Africans*, precisely because he cannot emotionally deal with the fact that they were Black.
This is the *real issue* you are trying to explain, which requires your false-apologia for Ancient Egypt being Black.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Doug writes: The color of the men and the symbolic association with the people of Egypt and the FERTILITY of the soil.
Correction on one point.
Yes Km.t like many societies used color symbolism.
However "soil" has little or nothing to do with color symbolism of any of the iconography [dark or lite] shown in this thread.
The idea of soil-symbolism is really a ruse and distraction created by Eurocentric Egyptologists.
I think you credit this ruse too much, as you are always trying to *explain* it.
Here is one of the better discussions on Kemetic color symbolism:
^ note: not a single mention of soil. Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:In Ancient Kemet, Asiatics were servant classes - even *in their own mythology( [Hebrew mythology], they were *lighter skinned* servant or slaves to the Black Egyptians - again according to *their own* mythology.
Here is what a critic [Raymond Mauny] of Diop's African origin of civilisation wrote [Bulletin de I'I FAN ], in response to Diop citing references to Egytpians as Blacks by their contemporaries - Ancient Greeks and Hebrew-:
Were not the Greeks, the Hebrews had the same reaction, inclined to call the Egyptians "Blacks" because the latter were darker than they, which is true?
^ Yes, this is true.
Posted by Bastet*Loves*Ptah (Member # 13948) on :
Wow, there sure is a lot of color phobia here. Sorry I did not realize it was so prevelant, I meant nothing offensive. I never said ALL of the servants were dark while those they served were WHITE, I was trying to point out that it COULD BE true that in ART they could be portrayed as dark but this could be from the sun, the same would go with those in ruling positions. I could care less who was white/black/brown, I am merely speaking generalities here. Ancient art does not always portray things as they were EXACTLY.
Posted by Young H*O*R*U*S (Member # 11484) on :
^lol this is just typical projection.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
yeah. Lala land
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Typical - delusion attachment. Like some of the EuroAmericans claiming America as theirs. Since they occupied it for the last 300 years. Forgetting that the Native Indians/Mexican Indians have been owned the land for the last 10,000years. Now they have to climb over fences and are illegals in their own land.
That's why i told my brother to DNA test his kids grandparents. Which came back MtDNA Haplo group-A. Now they have genetic proof that part of their ancestory are the TRUE AMERICANS. Their ancestors occupied this land thousands of years before the Euros.
Bastet*Loves*Ptah - "we egytians" don't like the sun. Oh brother.
quote:Originally posted by Bastet*Loves*Ptah: It isn't an insult or meant to be anything other than common sense. When we are in the sun we get darker, that's a biological fact. How many artistic impressions of the servants or slaves who worked outdoors do you see as being lighter skinned? Egyptian sun is hot, we are constantly shielding ourselves. The photo you showed above certainly projects a darker skinned figure being served by the lighter but that isn't always the case. I'm not saying that is the exact reason but you cannot overlook the possibility that it exists. Even today's lighter skinned Egyptians can get quite dark when outdoors in the summer quite a bit. Are they black necessarily because their skin darkened? No. But I do believe that many in high positions were, in fact, black. But to claim that all were is, in itself, proposterous.
Posted by Bastet*Loves*Ptah (Member # 13948) on :
I never said we do not like the sun, here is excessively hot and so we avoid it for that reason. How many of you are actually Egyptian or have ever even been to Egypt? Or do you simply come to ES to spew your color-agenda here? I see why so many avoid this section of this forum, they are right, I'm sure you will resolve your color issues one day. Posted by Young H*O*R*U*S (Member # 11484) on :
^I don't see you AVOIDING this section lol Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
You keep missing the premise. Simpley put - Being born in Egypt does not make you of AE "lineage".
How is that DJ? Think I got it now. HE HE HE.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bastet*Loves*Ptah: I never said we do not like the sun, here is excessively hot and so we avoid it for that reason. How many of you are actually Egyptian or have ever even been to Egypt? Or do you simply come to ES to spew your color-agenda here? I see why so many avoid this section of this forum, they are right, I'm sure you will resolve your color issues one day.
The point is that the ancient Nile Valley Africans did not have to avoid the sun because they were born in that environment and adapted to live in it. Dark skin is an adaptation to strong UV radiation and the ancient Egyptians had this trait as they were derived from populations aboriginal to this region. Light skin is not adapted to high UV radiation, hence lighter skinned populations are not adapted to it, which indicates that they are NOT aboriginal to this region. The aboriginal people of this region are dark because they are biologically adapted to the conditions of the environment and have been that way for thousands and thousands of years. In fact this trait goes back to the first humans of Africa and the only way such a trait would be lost is due to extremely LOW UV environments that do not exist in Africa. Therefore, very light skin is not a trait that is aboriginal or indigenous to Africa.
The reason the AE portrayed themselves as dark brown is because that is how they looked and it wasn't due to tanning. This statement is no slight against any modern Egyptian as the ancient Egyptians in question are people that lived over 2500 years ago. There is no need to pretend that all people in Egypt today are exactly the same as the ancient Egyptians. That is not to say that ancient Egypt wasn't diverse, but modern Egypt is also diverse and includes both dark skinned and lighter skinned people. And it is absurd to suggest that this dark skinned element of the population is somehow foreign or a recent arrival to the Nile Valley. That is ridiculous.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bastet*Loves*Ptah: Wow, there sure is a lot of color phobia here. I meant nothing offensive
The only thing offensive about you, is your inability to address facts or present any. Now you are trying to argue by ridicule, which is lame.
quote:I never said ALL of the servants were dark
Boooo..... you were never accussed of saying all servants were dark. All you are doing now is backtracking. This happens when you make remarks that you cannot evidence.
quote:I was trying to point out that it COULD BE true that in ART they could be portrayed as dark but this could be from the sun
This is ridiculous for reasons already pointed out, and related to you in two anthropological studies, which you fail to address.
quote:The same would go with those in ruling positions.
You originally stated that servants were dark because they worked in the sun, and rulers were not, because they did not.
All you are doing now is backpeddling, because your excuses, like National Geographics articles, make no sense.
All *we* are doing, is pointing out where you aren't making any sense.
quote:Ancient art does not always portray things as they were EXACTLY.
Irrelevant, as your remarks are falsified by both anthropology and ancient art.
The bottom line is, your remarks are BASELESS.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^
quote:Originally posted by Young H*O*R*U*S: ^lol this is just typical projection.
Of course. Right down to the classic "I could care less", denial, of why they are here in this thread, making up ridiculous excuses for the dark color of Ancient Egyptians to begin with.
I think there should be a formal sub-catagory of Kemophobic neurosis known as - black soil fetish. - the need to deny the existence of Black people by creating oxymoronic excuses [the soil was dark, the sun was hot, etc..] Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LOL
quote:Originally posted by Bastet*Loves*Ptah: It isn't an insult or meant to be anything other than common sense. When we are in the sun we get darker, that's a biological fact.
Yes, but tanning has nothing to do with the very dark (black) complexions you see in these ancient depictions.
quote:How many artistic impressions of the servants or slaves who worked outdoors do you see as being lighter skinned?
Actually quite alot considering as how most servants and slaves were Asiatics, as Rasol has explained.
quote:Egyptian sun is hot, we are constantly shielding ourselves.
Of course the sun in Egypt, as it is in any part of Africa. You modern Egyptians may constantly shield yoursleves but the ancient Egyptians did not. Men went topless and sometimes women did as well or wear simple thin linen gowns. The women did not wear hijab or anything to cover themselves but like the men dress 'scantily' compared to Egyptians today. The sun did not bother their dark skins as it does to lighter skinned foreigners.
quote:The photo you showed above certainly projects a darker skinned figure being served by the lighter but that isn't always the case. I'm not saying that is the exact reason but you cannot overlook the possibility that it exists.
No one ever said it was always the case. But it has nothing to do with the point or fact made in this thread.
quote:Even today's lighter skinned Egyptians can get quite dark when outdoors in the summer quite a bit. Are they black necessarily because their skin darkened? No. But I do believe that many in high positions were, in fact, black. But to claim that all were is, in itself, proposterous.
Modern Egypt is NOT ancient Egypt. Ancient Egypt was as entirely a black African nation. Modern Egypt is obviously not.
quote: Wow, there sure is a lot of color phobia here. Sorry I did not realize it was so prevelant,...
You mean like your country of modern Egypt today, where the women use skin lighteners and bleach their hair?!
LOL Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Doug writes: The color of the men and the symbolic association with the people of Egypt and the FERTILITY of the soil.
Correction on one point.
Yes Km.t like many societies used color symbolism.
However "soil" has little or nothing to do with color symbolism of any of the iconography [dark or lite] shown in this thread.
The idea of soil-symbolism is really a ruse and distraction created by Eurocentric Egyptologists.
I think you credit this ruse too much, as you are always trying to *explain* it.
Here is one of the better discussions on Kemetic color symbolism:
What I said is correct no matter what Eurocentrics do to distort the facts. The name of the country reflected the color of the population. This population had a cosmology that also associated the color black with fertility and creation and people from the south. The blacks of Egypt were therefore tied to Southerners and the first humans created IN AFRICA, via the Nile, which carries both the life giving silt AND THE BLACK PEOPLE, from the mound of creation keeping the nation REPLENISHED (bloodlines, ancestry) and connected to the gods of creation.
quote: The color of the men and the symbolic association with the people of Egypt and the FERTILITY of the soil which flowed from the sacred mound of creation in INNER AFRICA was established in the name of the country itself: KMT. BLACK. And all of this reflects the FLOW of creation, the FLOW of the Nile and FLOW of life for the country which COMES FROM THE SOUTH and brings FERTILE BLACK SOIL and FERTILE BLACK PEOPLE from the SOURCE OF CREATION MANKIND, INNER AFRICA.
Black earth/fertility symbolism:
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:What I said is correct no matter what Eurocentrics do to distort the facts. The name of the country reflected the color of the population.
Yes.
That's literally true and attested in the mdw ntr:
1) the people are referred to as being Black -> Km.t Rm.t [Black People]
2) their skin is specifically referenced as Black -> Kem Ho [Black Face]
3) it is the skin of the people that is shown as Black.....
quote: This population had a cosmology that also associated the color black with fertility and creation and people from the south.
I partly agree.
The Kemetians definitely regarded themselves as originating from the South, this is attested in the mdw ntr as well, and in many ways.
For example the title of the Pharoah is Nsu Biti - He who comes from the South.
quote: The blacks of Egypt were therefore tied to Southerners
Kemetians originate in the south, yes. [repettition]
quote: and the first humans created IN AFRICA
This is mixture of anthropology and mdw ntr, and is the beginning of where I disagree with you.
It's true that the 1st humans originate in Africa, over 100 thousand years ago, but Kemetic mythology does not know this, nor relate it. They can only relate their own origins.
The distinction is important because its the difference between reading the mdw ntr and reading things into it based upon what you think, or know. [like all humans originating in africa]
quote:the Nile, which carries both the life giving silt AND THE BLACK PEOPLE, from the mound of creation keeping the nation REPLENISHED (bloodlines, ancestry) and connected to the gods of creation.
This part is almost all *you*.
This is your intepretation, and not found in the iconography you are referencing, or the primary textg.
Here's a straighforward question, show me where in the primary text, I can read about how these pictures reference 'black soil' symbolically?
I can see that the Kemetic skin is painted Black.
I can read that they are called Blacks.
I can read that their faces are Black.
Where can I read about the connection between
Note: I'm not saying your interpretations are not interesting, and even elegant, they are.
But you are still putting your words in the Km.t Rm.t *Black Peoples* mouths, and not actually relating what they themselves said.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ Here are some further reasons why I can't quite agree with you Doug.
* One of the problems with trying to make the Black Gods of Egypt into *soil symbol/fertility symbol* is that virtually -all the Gods- of Egypt are Black.
Moreover virtually all Kemetic Pharaoh are painted symbolically as pitch-Black when they are Gods, or revered or powerful or sacred.
Jet Black Tut.
Now, Eurocentrists have tried to "deal" with this, by making the opposite argument.... that Black symbolises *death*.
But this is also provably wrong, because of the living images of Kemetians who are nontheless painted Jet Black. And, in the Terra Heka reliefs showing 4 ethnic groups in the After-life - they are *all dead*, but the "Egyptian and Sudanese" are shown and referred to as Blacks, whereas Libyan and Levantine are shown and referred to as Reds.
So we see, that being dead, being a 'spirit' so to speak, does not make you Black.
Asiatics, in the above, dead and ready for Osirian ressurection as they are - are nontheless just as pale complicated as they are shown in life, thus exploding the Black = death hypothesis.
I think Wally has the best understanding of symbolic color in Kemetic iconography:
Egyptian male (dark) Egyptian brown skin.....masculine, strong Black skin.....................powerful, reborn White skin....................recently deceased
Old Egyptian male (light) Yellow skin....................weak, frail
Egyptian female (light) Yellow skin....................feminine, weak Egyptian brown skin.....equal of men (Amarna period) Black skin.....................powerful, reborn
Egyptian gods Gold skin......................flesh of the gods Blue skin......................the cosmic waters, the firmament Green skin...................life (i.e., plants) Black skin.....................resurrection, sacred, holy, benevolent http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/coco_hues.html
Of what i've read, his is the most directly evidenced from the primary text, the least internally contradictory, and the most logically inferred, with a minimum of superimpositions.
Posted by Masonic Rebel (Member # 9549) on :
this bust, made of wood that has darkened with age ,
Bull **^*%88
The Eurocentrics used the same Lame Argument about the BLACK MADONNA
Where is the National Geographic Scholars Pride
No Shame
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Yeah and likewise no explanation for why the eye whites didn't darken. They also said the madonnas darken from candle smoke, or, and get to this, absorbing the sins of the adoring worshippers!
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Yeah and likewise no explanation for why the eye whites didn't darken. They also said the madonnas darken from candle smoke, or, and get to this, absorbing the sins of the adoring worshippers!
^ To understand the zeal that Eurocentrism places into denying 'black', is to understand the importance and power of the concept.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
And to think, all of this stems from Euros being unable to deal with their rationalization for trading in African flesh that Africans are somehow less human subhuman unhuman inhuman other than human or as one European count put it:
A guilty conscience is a hard thing to salve. It's easier to hate what invoked it than to rectify the wrong that called it forth and thus finally and for all time put it to rest.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: And to think, all of this stems from Euros being unable to deal with their rationalization for trading in African flesh that Africans are somehow less human subhuman unhuman inhuman other than human or as one European count put it:
A guilty conscience is a hard thing to salve. It's easier to hate what invoked it than to rectify the wrong that called it forth and thus finally and for all time put it to rest.
I don't think it's just a guilty conscience that motivates this behavior. History was the invention of the Greeks. All people had annals. In these annals are the stories of great persons and events that matter to the folk telling the stories about their civilization and culture.
The Greeks wrote history and used it as a tool to justify their overlord of the Barbarians.
Since Greco-Roman times the powers that be have recognized the role of history as a tool of oppression, and control. The theft of Egypt, and Black civilizations generally was done to insure that the people writing history maintain their position as "legitimate" guardians of the "truth". A truth in this case that reflects the views of the status quo.
Given the need to use history as a weapon of control, the writers of this history feel no guilt about slavery. They steal other people's history to maintain their status as "world rulers". They know that if you want people to "deify you" you most make the people believe in your power. Making the Egyptians white, insures that people will identify this group with Europeans, and further the lie that Europeans have always been supreme.
.
Posted by Young H*O*R*U*S (Member # 11484) on :
quote:Originally posted by Masonic Rebel:
This sends shivers up my spine ... just a few months ago, I was on a bus tour (while holidaying in Barcelona) with my bird, up the Montserrat mountain to go see the Black Madonna when the tour guide decided (even though no one asked her) to let us know that the Black Madonna had darkened over time for some ludicrous reason...
Is this the same Black Madonna I had to squeeze through and climb over a thousand people to get a picture of just so my girl could see it (picture came out blurred anyway)???
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Since Greco-Roman times the powers that be have recognized the role of history as a tool of oppression, and control. The theft of Egypt, and Black civilizations generally was done to insure that the people writing history maintain their position as "legitimate" guardians of the "truth". A truth in this case that reflects the views of the status quo.
Given the need to use history as a weapon of control, the writers of this history feel no guilt about slavery. They steal other people's history to maintain their status as "world rulers". They know that if you want people to "deify you" you most make the people believe in your power. Making the Egyptians white, insures that people will identify this group with Europeans, and further the lie that Europeans have always been supreme.
Well said. And the real kicker is when you see on occasion how well this works on some minds.
Yonis for example, stated that there were 'no blacks' in history, because Americans and British 'invented' the concept of Black.
Given things like "AL-JAHIZ, History of Blacks [ over Whites" written over a thousand years ago, he 1st tried to claim the books was mistranlated and contained no reference to Blacks.
When this failed he backtracked and claimed that it referenced 'Sudad' as Black, because the southern Sudanese are so dark.
[he obsessively tries to restrict -true black- to southern sudan and then distance his Somali self from it]
When this failed, when Jihaz was cited as referencing NorthEast Africans specifically along with Blacks of India and elsewhere, he further backtracked, and then tried to reduce the discourse to flame-trolling; which must follow and argument that runs out of steam for the same reason that stench must follow excrement.
Of course with ancient Kemetian and Sumerians he will repeat 'black soil/black hair' mantra in order to deny these peoples referenced their own dark skins.
Yonis should stop this thread soon, and either deny ever saying the above, or search for some prepostrous excuse for it.
What he cannot do, is admit historical self reference of dark skinned peoples as Blacks, because Eurocentrists [and possibly Arabs] have so taught him to hate himself as a Black man and as and African, that he cannot bring himself to admit the truth, no matter how much evidence is placed right in front of his face, and to which he has no rebuttal.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ Here are some further reasons why I can't quite agree with you Doug.
* One of the problems with trying to make the Black Gods of Egypt into *soil symbol/fertility symbol* is that virtually -all the Gods- of Egypt are Black.
Moreover virtually all Kemetic Pharaoh are painted symbolically as pitch-Black when they are Gods, or revered or powerful or sacred.
Jet Black Tut.
Now, Eurocentrists have tried to "deal" with this, by making the opposite argument.... that Black symbolises *death*.
But this is also provably wrong, because of the living images of Kemetians who are nontheless painted Jet Black. And, in the Terra Heka reliefs showing 4 ethnic groups in the After-life - they are *all dead*, but the "Egyptian and Sudanese" are shown and referred to as Blacks, whereas Libyan and Levantine are shown and referred to as Reds.
So we see, that being dead, being a 'spirit' so to speak, does not make you Black.
Asiatics, in the above, dead and ready for Osirian ressurection as they are - are nontheless just as pale complicated as they are shown in life, thus exploding the Black = death hypothesis.
I think Wally has the best understanding of symbolic color in Kemetic iconography:
Egyptian male (dark) Egyptian brown skin.....masculine, strong Black skin.....................powerful, reborn White skin....................recently deceased
Old Egyptian male (light) Yellow skin....................weak, frail
Egyptian female (light) Yellow skin....................feminine, weak Egyptian brown skin.....equal of men (Amarna period) Black skin.....................powerful, reborn
Egyptian gods Gold skin......................flesh of the gods Blue skin......................the cosmic waters, the firmament Green skin...................life (i.e., plants) Black skin.....................resurrection, sacred, holy, benevolent http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/coco_hues.html
Of what i've read, his is the most directly evidenced from the primary text, the least internally contradictory, and the most logically inferred, with a minimum of superimpositions.
The problem with this rasol is that you are arguing against Eurocentrism. What I am saying has nothing to do with Eurocentrism. The BLACK EARTH was an important part of Egyptian cosmology. The black earth was the origin of the gods and their black skin was a representation of BOTH the FERTILITY and BLACK PEOPLE as black people were the FIRST PEOPLE to be born from the FERTILE black soil. Black people represent FERTILITY. They represent the FIRST SEED of humanity and THE SEMEN of the gods which impregnates the soil and created humans as a reflection of gods will. That is the WHOLE SYMBOLISM. It is WHOLISTIC not EUROCENTRIC. Eurocentrics argue that BECAUSE the soil was black, the people were NOT black. That is ridiculous. Black soil and black skin were one in the same and represented the FIRST MAN or FIRST CREATION of mankind where the gods molded man from the BLACK SOIL of inner Africa at the sacred mound of creation and this SOIL was the skin color of the first man and represents the fertility of the seed of humanity as it went forth and pollinated the earth with humans. That IS what the symbolism of Egyptian cosmology represents, but the word Kmt just means black, which OBVIOUSLY refers to the people of the country, the nation as well as the cosmology of fertility and the connection between the black people of Egypt to the sacred mound of creation IN INNER AFRICA.
THAT IS NOT what the Europeans mean when they say black soil = KMT and is a shallow concept that has nothing to do with what I am saying.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ The 'Black Madonna' of Europe is basically the Egyptian cult of Aset (Isis) that has been assimilated into Christianity. Withe the black depiction of course coming from the Egyptian symbolism of divinity.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: * One of the problems with trying to make the Black Gods of Egypt into *soil symbol/fertility symbol* is that virtually -all the Gods- of Egypt are Black.
Moreover virtually all Kemetic Pharaoh are painted symbolically as pitch-Black when they are Gods, or revered or powerful or sacred.
Of course black is not the only symbolic color used in Egypt, and there are several others. However, black was NOT the symbolic color for land fertility-- GREEN is! This can be seen where Osiris as god of agriculture is depicted in green or the god of the Nile, Hapi is also painted green.
Even many Sub-Saharan cultures today associate the color green with land and its fertility but not with people whom they usually use black.
quote: Jet Black Tut.
Now, Eurocentrists have tried to "deal" with this, by making the opposite argument.... that Black symbolises *death*.
But this is also provably wrong, because of the living images of Kemetians who are nontheless painted Jet Black. And, in the Terra Heka reliefs showing 4 ethnic groups in the After-life - they are *all dead*, but the "Egyptian and Sudanese" are shown and referred to as Blacks, whereas Libyan and Levantine are shown and referred to as Reds.
So we see, that being dead, being a 'spirit' so to speak, does not make you Black.
Asiatics, in the above, dead and ready for Osirian ressurection as they are - are nontheless just as pale complicated as they are shown in life, thus exploding the Black = death hypothesis.
Agreed. The association of black with death at least in Egyptian culture is bogus since many black depictions of people show them while alive as well as many deities who are painted black. Are they dead too? LOL Mind you they always point to Tut's guardian statues above as 'funerary' statues when they are suppose to be the ba of Tut. The ba is a spirit aspect of a person associated with vitality (the opposite of death) and even bravery, hence the guardian aspect.
quote:I think Wally has the best understanding of symbolic color in Kemetic iconography:
Egyptian male (dark) Egyptian brown skin.....masculine, strong Black skin.....................powerful, reborn White skin....................recently deceased
Old Egyptian male (light) Yellow skin....................weak, frail
Egyptian female (light) Yellow skin....................feminine, weak Egyptian brown skin.....equal of men (Amarna period) Black skin.....................powerful, reborn
Egyptian gods Gold skin......................flesh of the gods Blue skin......................the cosmic waters, the firmament Green skin...................life (i.e., plants) Black skin.....................resurrection, sacred, holy, benevolent http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/coco_hues.html
Of what i've read, his is the most directly evidenced from the primary text, the least internally contradictory, and the most logically inferred, with a minimum of superimpositions.
Yes Wally's color symbolism scheme makes the most sense and does not conflict with the various iconography.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
The symbolism of the BLACK earth associated with fertility is seen in MIN, GEB and OSIRIS. Min is a deity painted black with a big phallus. He is associated with agriculture. OBVIOUSLY agriculture is green which symbolizes plant life, but plants grow from the FERTILE SOIL which is black. MIN is an EARTH GOD, FERTILITY GOD and AGRICULTURE GOD. Geb is god of the earth and his wife nut is the sky. Geb is often shown with an ERECT PHALLUS that is in intercourse with the sky. Again, the EARTH represents FERTILITY and the SEED or MALE REPRODUCTION. Hence MALE GODS ARE BLACK and symbolize the EARTH and REPRODUCTION. Osiris is the SON of Geb and he TOO is black but also Green symbolizing BOTH fertility and the earth. ALL OF THESE DEITIES represent the same thing: the MALE SEED and the MALE ASPECT of reproduction in nature. The woman is the sky and represents the FEMALE aspect of reproduction as the sky takes the SEED of GEB and spreads it via the four winds to the ends of the earth, where it POLLINATES, which means that it enters the FEMALE reproductive system and gives birth.
These are not exclusive because WOMEN also were shown as black, but this symbolized the SAME THING, FERTILITY, the rebirth of the BLACK NATION, BLACK MOTHER of mankind and the mother of the new risen KING or seed of the earth, which became the black madonna.
Mentuhotep surrounded himself with BLACK WOMEN symbolizing the REBIRTH and RESTORATION of the BLACK NATION both symbolically and literally. They all were priestesses of hathor symbolizing mother hood. This means they were the symbolic mother of the next king and were to suckle the new king and nurture the new risen seed for the restoration of the black nation. Mentuhotep therefore becomes responsible for RESTORING the black nation to its place relative to the sacred mound of creation IN INNER AFRICA by birth from the BLACK WOMAN of the south.
He therefore is depicted as being the risen black earth suckled by hathor (note the green head piece):
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ I'm sorry but there is no evidence to black soil in that reply. Your reasoning here consists of little more than a series of non-sequiturs, strung together, in support of a conclusion nowhere evidenced in the actual text or iconography.
Indeed this is the very definition of 'FAR-FETCHED'.
Far fetched means a conclusion that is not credible because it is *a long way [far] from the evidence used to support it*.
You can count the degree of far-fetching in thesis in terms of the number of assumptive steps=x needed to get from the actual evidence, to the conclusion.
The formula would involve X and and exponent making the conclusion exponentially more unlikly as X grows larger in value.
A picture of Black skinned baby suckling - fact.
It is a symbol of fertility -> one step away from the fact of black skin; X = 1
In turn as as symbol of agriculture -> two steps away; X=2
In turn as symbol for soil that is dark -> three steps.
This is a classic example of far fetched conclusion.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The symbolism of the BLACK earth associated with fertility is seen in MIN, GEB and OSIRIS. Min is a deity painted black with a big phallus. He is associated with agriculture.
This doesn't make sense.
All the God's are Black. Regardless of agriculture, regardless of large phallus [female gods are Black too], and even if you associate with a particular God with fertility and agriculture, by far fetched assumption, then what would this have to do with "soil", which is nowhere found?
You might as well claim that Gods are painted Black in reference to Black Penises, which is also a symbol of potency....
You'd then run into the problem of female Gods being Black too, which falsifies this claim, just as all the images of Blacks which show no black soil, or agriculture or feritility symbols falsify your claim.
Black soil isn't in the primary text. It's a superimposition onto the text. And the superimposition doesn't make sense.
quote:Djehuti writes: However, black was NOT the symbolic color for land fertility-- GREEN is!
I agree. Why would Tut be painted Black in funerary statue's to symbolise 'black soil'.
This makes no sense whatsoever.
I reiterrate - discussion of Black soil exists soley because Europeans needed and excuse for Black Ancient Egyptians.
It can be likened to the claims that Europe's Black Madonna's turned Black over time from absorbing sin, or due to volcanic Ash in Pompeii.
It makes no sense, and without the need of Europeans to make excuses for the Black *skin* that we actually see.....we would not be having this dicussion.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
The Greeks wrote of an Egypt inhabited by blacks, even of a Sudani birth of civilization itself.
The Nile Valley Civilizations weren't co-opted into the white world nor blacks relegated to sub-basement of humanity until after the slave trade
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
The Greeks wrote of an Egypt inhabited by blacks, even of a Sudani birth of civilization itself.
The Nile Valley Civilizations weren't co-opted into the white world nor blacks relegated to sub-basement of humanity until after the slave trade
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
The Greeks wrote of an Egypt inhabited by blacks, even of a Sudani birth of civilization itself.
The Nile Valley Civilizations weren't co-opted into the white world nor blacks relegated to sub-basement of humanity until after the slave trade
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
[SORRY FOR THE ABOVE PARTIAL POSTS DUE TO TRANSMISSION ERRORS]
The Greeks wrote of an Egypt inhabited by blacks, even of a Sudani birth of civilization itself.
The Nile Valley Civilizations weren't co-opted into the white world nor blacks relegated to sub-basement of humanity until after the slave trade that made the western hemisphere economically viable for settlement and exploitation.
Unable to deal with the fact of the brutality of a sustained slave trade Euros invented the negro and all the rationalizations to justify that ill concept. It was done to salve their conscience. Never before were slaves dehumanized on such a level. African black humanity has suffered ever since then in a way previously unknown and that plight attached to other black humanity soon afterward.
We can find Aristotle and Galen writing disparingly about blacks but we don not find Graeco-Latin authors denying all blacks a soul, declaring them 3/5ths human, incapable of culture, or not the originators of their applied civilizations fit only to be worked to death and kept from intermingling on any meaningful level. Not so in the Greaco-Roman world where blacks brought and ministered religion via the Isis Mysteries.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: And to think, all of this stems from Euros being unable to deal with their rationalization for trading in African flesh that Africans are somehow less human subhuman unhuman inhuman other than human or as one European count put it:
A guilty conscience is a hard thing to salve. It's easier to hate what invoked it than to rectify the wrong that called it forth and thus finally and for all time put it to rest.
I don't think it's just a guilty conscience that motivates this behavior. History was the invention of the Greeks. All people had annals. In these annals are the stories of great persons and events that matter to the folk telling the stories about their civilization and culture.
The Greeks wrote history and used it as a tool to justify their overlord of the Barbarians.
Since Greco-Roman times the powers that be have recognized the role of history as a tool of oppression, and control. The theft of Egypt, and Black civilizations generally was done to insure that the people writing history maintain their position as "legitimate" guardians of the "truth". A truth in this case that reflects the views of the status quo.
Given the need to use history as a weapon of control, the writers of this history feel no guilt about slavery. They steal other people's history to maintain their status as "world rulers". They know that if you want people to "deify you" you most make the people believe in your power. Making the Egyptians white, insures that people will identify this group with Europeans, and further the lie that Europeans have always been supreme.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ I'm sorry but there is no evidence to black soil in that reply. Your reasoning here consists of little more than a series of non-sequiturs, strung together, in support of a conclusion nowhere evidenced in the actual text or iconography.
Indeed this is the very definition of 'FAR-FETCHED'.
Far fetched means a conclusion that is not credible because it is *a long way [far] from the evidence used to support it*.
You can count the degree of far-fetching in thesis in terms of the number of assumptive steps=x needed to get from the actual evidence, to the conclusion.
The formula would involve X and and exponent making the conclusion exponentially more unlikly as X grows larger in value.
A picture of Black skinned baby suckling - fact.
It is a symbol of fertility -> one step away from the fact of black skin; X = 1
In turn as as symbol of agriculture -> two steps away; X=2
In turn as symbol for soil that is dark -> three steps.
This is a classic example of far fetched conclusion.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The symbolism of the BLACK earth associated with fertility is seen in MIN, GEB and OSIRIS. Min is a deity painted black with a big phallus. He is associated with agriculture.
This doesn't make sense.
All the God's are Black. Regardless of agriculture, regardless of large phallus [female gods are Black too], and even if you associate with a particular God with fertility and agriculture, by far fetched assumption, then what would this have to do with "soil", which is nowhere found?
You might as well claim that Gods are painted Black in reference to Black Penises, which is also a symbol of potency....
You'd then run into the problem of female Gods being Black too, which falsifies this claim, just as all the images of Blacks which show no black soil, or agriculture or feritility symbols falsify your claim.
Black soil isn't in the primary text. It's a superimposition onto the text. And the superimposition doesn't make sense.
quote:Djehuti writes: However, black was NOT the symbolic color for land fertility-- GREEN is!
I agree. Why would Tut be painted Black in funerary statue's to symbolise 'black soil'.
This makes no sense whatsoever.
I reiterrate - discussion of Black soil exists soley because Europeans needed and excuse for Black Ancient Egyptians.
It can be likened to the claims that Europe's Black Madonna's turned Black over time from absorbing sin, or due to volcanic Ash in Pompeii.
It makes no sense, and without the need of Europeans to make excuses for the Black *skin* that we actually see.....we would not be having this dicussion.
Egyptian culture had multiple levels of symbolism. Black meant many things and yes soil or specifically FERTILE soil and the earth was part of that symbolism. Those are facts. Geb, Min and Osiris depicted as black are all painted as black representing fertility, the fertile soil and the BLACK SEED. And this black seed and black earth is sacred because it symbolizes the mound of creation IN AFRICA where humanity was created and black skin represents the black earth or mound of creation AND the black people created from it. It also represents the force of creation itself, which is divine and impregnates the entire material universe and causes things to bear fruit, seed, germinate and to grow. Obviously the black seed is sacred as it represents the semen that caused the first black man and woman to give birth and create children and then create mankind and populate the earth.
Min was an agricultural diety. His erect phallus represented the seed of the earth, male reproduction and fertility. He was considered as a agricultural deity as well as a sign of manhood and virility. Those are all facts and there is nothing that you have presented to contradict those facts.
quote: ... You are the Great Male, the owner of all females. The Bull who is unites with those of the sweet love, of beautiful face and of painted eyes, Victorious sovereign among the Gods who inspires fear in the Ennead. ... The goddesses are glad, seeing your perfection.
-- Hymn to Min
He was associated with the Egyptian cos lettuce - an aphrodisiac to the ancient Egyptians because the lettuce was tall, straight and secreted a milky substance when pressed! (This was also a favourite food of Set.) Min was often shown standing before offering tables, covered with heads of lettuce. ... Min wasn't just a fertility god, such as Hapi or Osiris, who only presided over the fields - he was also a god of male fertility who could give the pharaoh (and other men) the power to father a child. He also presided over the sed (jubilee) festival of the pharaoh (where the pharaoh had to run around a course set by the priests, carrying different objects), symbolically rejuvenating the pharaoh to give him long life... and the fertility of his youth.
In representations of one of the important Min festivals, the Pharaoh was shown hoeing the ground and watering the fields while Min looked on. At the Min festival held at the beginning of the harvest season, the Pharaoh was seen ceremonially reaping the grain ... When he begot his heir (ritually at the same festival) the Pharaoh was again identified with Min.
As with Osiris, Min was an agricultural god - at Medinet Habu, Ramses III is shown scything a sheaf of wheat for the Festival of Min. There are also scenes of pharaohs ceremonially hoeing the ground and watering the fields under the supervision of Min. It is interesting to note that a virgin was poetically referred to as an 'unplowed field'.
It is from this symbolism that the phrase "go forth, be fruitful and multiply comes from". The seed of min is a statement about human semen being the seed of mankind and related and part of human, animal and plant reproductive systems. The pharaoh was supposed to manage the harvest of the earth and therefore was responsible for earth measure, or geo-metry, which is why pharaohs are shown running in front of Min with a t-square. The deity represents fertility of the earth, of the seed, of the black man and the vitality of the black nation as symbolized in the pharaoh. And yes that big "x" on the chest is partly where x chromosome comes from and means the same thing, the male aspect of reproduction.
But this isn't a simple case that black only meant male seed or the earth. It also meant fertility, both male AND female. The female represented as black represents the BLACK WOMB, the BLACK MOTHER of the BLACK CHILD, who is the FERTILE and births the seed and the EARTH from which we all are born, as the risen seed is THE EARTH or RISEN CONSCIOUSNESS in the flesh made from the earth, which is HERU the risen son, and completes the trinity of the black man, woman and child and the health and longevity of the BLACK NATION. These aren't mutually exclusive concepts.
The Nile was the connection between Egypt and the source of (human) creation in Africa. Black symbolizes this creation in the black man and woman of inner Africa, the force of creation and the fertile soil watered by the Nile which originates in Africa. This is a cosmology based on the fact of human creation among black Africans in Africa and homage to and respect for the creation of mankind in Africa and a national identity and "soul" that is based on the connection between Egypt and the gods, which were IN INNER AFRICA.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Egyptian culture had multiple levels of symbolism.
We all agree with that.
quote: Black meant many things and yes soil or specifically FERTILE soil and the earth was part of that symbolise. Those are facts.
Actually no, you've produced no facts in support of this claim.
What you are doing, is making suppositions [many of which are in internal contradiction] and *confusing them* with facts.
quote: Geb, Min and Osiris depicted as black
^ That is a fact, and so is Horus and Isis, etc..
quote:representing fertility, the fertile soil and the BLACK SEED.
^ That is a supposition, *not* a fact.
I can add any number of suppositions to this statemment:
"representing the night, the afterlife, the neitherworld, the sacred heat of the sun Ra,
the dark waters of the Nile,
the color of the black flying saucers of the space aliens who built the pyramids,
and lest we forget,
that they are black because they are absorbing the sins of the Ancient Egyptians"
^ All suppositions, not facts.
The only *fact* related is that the -skin- is Black.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Egyptian culture had multiple levels of symbolism.
We all agree with that.
No "we" don't because YOU seem to have only ONE level of symbolism for the color black and that seems to be BLACK SKIN ONLY. Actually, you ONLY accept that symbolism which is not something YOU FEEL represents a Eurocentric idea. But this whole argument is ridiculous. Just as the Egyptians recognized and identified with BLACK SKIN as part of their identity as Africans, so too did they identify it with fertility and the fact that dark wet soil is a symbol of fertility. Such a concept has NOTHING to do with EUROPEANS. The ONLY way to determine if what I said is valid is by LOOKING TO THE EGYPTIANS, not arguing against Eurocentrics. Eurocentrics are not THE SOURCE of Egyptian cosmology, therefore an argument AGAINST Eurocentrism is not an argument AGAINST Egyptian symbolism. This requires an understanding and knowledge of Egyptian symbolism and cosmology, not a knowledge of Eurocentrism.
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote: Black meant many things and yes soil or specifically FERTILE soil and the earth was part of that symbolise. Those are facts.
Actually no, you've produced no facts in support of this claim.
What you are doing, is making suppositions [many of which are in internal contradiction] and *confusing them* with facts.
Actually I have presented evidence. You have presented nothing to counter it. Why is Min depicted as black? What is YOUR take on that symbolism?
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote: Geb, Min and Osiris depicted as black
^ That is a fact, and so is Horus and Isis, etc..
And? They all represent the same thing, the rebirth and replentishment of BLACK PEOPLE from BLACK AFRICA, as symbolized by the trinity of black seed (black male semen), black womb( black womans vagina) and black babies (self explanatory). That trinity and rebirth is also symbolic of FERTILITY in that it represents the POWER to renew life and this power COMES from the earth. It is from the earth that man is born, through his mother the womb and his father the seed and it is to the earth that man returns at death. Blackness was symbolic of this connection and cycle of life, death and new life in the earth as Osiris. Osiris is in the under world or under the earth or the earth itself and represents the passage from one phase to the next. It also represents the cycle of life, death and new life springing from the earth as an eternal force of nature. Osiris was the son of Geb, the earth diety. Min was also a form of Geb. The earth represents the power to bring forth life (human beings and sexuality) and to sustain life (food and water).
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:representing fertility, the fertile soil and the BLACK SEED.
^ That is a supposition, *not* a fact.
I can add any number of suppositions to this statemment:
"representing the night, the afterlife, the neitherworld, the sacred heat of the sun Ra,
the dark waters of the Nile,
the color of the black flying saucers of the space aliens who built the pyramids,
and lest we forget,
that they are black because they are absorbing the sins of the Ancient Egyptians"
^ All suppositions, not facts.
The only *fact* related is that the -skin- is Black.
There are many levels of symbolism in ancient Egyptian thought and this symbolism spanned 3,000 years. It is impossible to try and gloss over all of the various symbolic meanings found within Egyptian thought in a single thread. It would take a lifetime to reconstruct all the symbolic meanings in Egyptian cosmology. Given that, it is impossible to say that in Egyptian cosmology that black NEVER symbolized the earth or more specifically the FERTILE EARTH.
"Who could these Africans people be who produced the greatest civilization of antiquity? Surely in the minds of the early European scholars there had to be an explanation that showed them to be different from Africans who lived in societies contiguous to Egypt. In the eyes of those whose culture was warped by slave-trading and colonization the ancient Egyptians could not be Africans, after all Europeans were enslaving Africans! If they admitted that the Egyptians were Africans they would have to declare that they were not black. They had to be white Africans! Who during the 19th century would believe that blacks built the pyramids? What whites of the 19th century could admit that fact? ... When they spoke of Africans they largely defined a narrow idea of a “true Negro” that usually referred to Africans from the rainforest region of the continent that had come to mean for whites, primitive, dangerous, mysterious, and the extreme of themselves physically. ... The fact of the blackness of the ancient Egyptians was accepted in Europe during the Renaissance. Actually prior to 1830 it was generally understood that the ancient Egyptians were black. However, after 1830, that is, after the Champollion’s deciphering of the Medu Netcher and the publication of Dominic Vivant Denon’s Description of Egypt, came the attempt to take Egypt out of Africa. Some authors have argued that the racism that produced this type of negative attitude toward black achievements was born during the slave trade as an attempt to justify morally what whites were doing to Africans physically. Few interpretative histories of European Slave Trade have dealt with the ideology of white supremacy as a generating force for much of the anti-African historiography. [8] "
[8] Molefi Kete Asante The Ideology of White Supremacy and the European Slave Trade paper presented at UNESCO Conference on “The Slave Routes” Lisbon, Portugal, December, 1998.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: And to think, all of this stems from Euros being unable to deal with their rationalization for trading in African flesh that Africans are somehow less human subhuman unhuman inhuman other than human or as one European count put it:
A guilty conscience is a hard thing to salve. It's easier to hate what invoked it than to rectify the wrong that called it forth and thus finally and for all time put it to rest.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Another Volney quote about the heart of the problem
quote:^ That is a fact, and so is Horus and Isis, etc.
quote:And? They all represent the same thing,
^ Yes, the fact that they are all Black.
The fact is there is *no soil* involved in their being black and you are required to insert soil arbitrarily. [might as well insert flying saucers]
The fact is that you are trying to channel and essentially racist ruse of Europeans into "your" interpretation, which makes no sense because it's based on Eurocentric lie to begin with.
I will say this one last time - Kemetians painted their skin black and called themselves blacks - because they *were black.*
Yes, they have a complex color cosmology - which is -best- explained here by Wally.
In this cosmology 'soil' has no more to do with 'why' dark skinned Km.t portry themselves as black and called themselves blacks, then *snow* does with why pale skinned Europeans portry themselves as white and call themselves white.
And that's why you can't evidence your theory, short of circular argument and tautological suppositions, which require no further addressing. Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^
quote:Doug writes: it is impossible to say that in Egyptian cosmology that black NEVER symbolized.....
This occurs when you advocate a theory based on the *impossiblity* of disproving it, and incorrectly imagine this as a kind of proof, when it is in fact a tell-tale sign of a bad argument.
Actually you can follow the word "symobilized...." with anything.
As in, "it's impossible to say that the pyramids NEVER symbolized "space Aliens".
^ Yes you're right, it is *impossible to prove a negative*, that's exactly why it's a non-valid argument.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Yes, the fact that they are all Black.
The fact is there is *no soil* involved in their being black and you are required to insert soil arbitrarily. [might as well insert flying saucers]
Geb, Min and Osiris are symbolic of the earth itself. So you are plain wrong that they do not represent it. You are not really debating you are making generalizations. There is no "one" meaning for symbolism in Egypt. Black soil, black skin and fertility are one in the same and are considered equivalent. In other words if the first sons and daughters of the earth weren't screwing and producing babies like crazy, there would be no humanity on earth. Black skin is the symbol of the black earth meaning the human molded from the clay by Khnum. Khnum molded the bodies of the gods, including osiris. The clay of the earth and the mound of the earth is the body of man. The black man is the symbol of the black earth as the first human on earth. The black man or black earth had to be fertile in order to spread human kind over the face of the earth. It is a simple statement of fact and the Egyptians recognized this statement of fundamental anthropology and genetics THOUSANDS of years ago.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: The fact is that you are trying to channel and essentially racist ruse of Europeans into "your" interpretation, which makes no sense because it's based on Eurocentric lie to begin with.
You are arguing from authority. In other words, cause you say so. I have seen not one reference to any quote, phrase, image or anything else from ancient Egypt to support anything for or against my argument. Please provide some evidence to support your claim. What does the black skin of Osiris mean? What does the black skin of Min mean? What does the black skin of Mentuhotep and his wives mean? Are you saying they were all literally black as tar? Or was there symbolism there and what was that symbolism referring to? Since this is something that can span many eras of Egyptian cosmology, lets just focus on the early 11th dynasty, when the color black is very strongly seen in Egyptian monuments. What does black mean in this time period as used by Mentuhotep?
quote:Originally posted by rasol: I will say this one last time - Kemetians painted their skin black and called themselves blacks - because they *were black.*
Pay attention. I was talking about the earth gods as a form of symbolism. I am talking about deities being painted JET BLACK. I am also talking about the occasions when various individuals in Egyptian art were painted JET BLACK.
WHY were they painted JET BLACK and what does that JET BLACK color represent?
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Yes, they have a complex color cosmology - which is -best- explained here by Wally.
In this cosmology 'soil' has no more to do with 'why' dark skinned Km.t portry themselves as black and called themselves blacks, then *snow* does with why pale skinned Europeans portry themselves as white and call themselves white.
Again, I am talking SPECIFICALLY about the JET BLACK color of gods like Min and Osiris. I am also talking about the JET BLACK depictions of Mentuhotep and some of his wives. Of course they were black too, but they most likely were not LITERALLY JET BLACK. What did the color JET BLACK symbolize?
quote:Originally posted by rasol: And that's why you can't evidence your theory, short of circular argument and tautological suppositions, which require no further addressing.
It is circular because you are still stuck on Eurocentric frames of reference. LISTEN.
What does JET BLACK mean in the color symbolism of ancient Egypt? Of course the Egyptians were black and nobody is questioning that in terms of the average skin complexion of the people. But when I say "black" I mean the color JET BLACK as a symbolic cosmological concept that TRANSCENDS and ENCOMPASSES simple skin complexion and represents a concept about the creation and origin of mankind and the relationship of the energies of creation to Egypt itself and its inhabitants. And, since the soil itself is not really black but brown, the idea that black simply means dirt is irrelevant as well. The symbolism means more than just dirt.
It is the same kind of symbolism seen in white as now, snow queen and white queen, where snow and white represent purity, perfection and holiness as well as white skin. But white skin isn't literally white, so the symbolism transcends white skin which is really pinkish tan.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Doug and Rasol, you guys are getting slightly off topic. This thread is about Nat Geo. You could take your arguments here. Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Off topic in what sense?
We are talking about the cosmology and world view of the ancient Egyptians which puts them as descendants of people from INNER AFRICA, which would make them BLACK PEOPLE. Why is that off topic for an article about National Geographic trying to pretend that the only black people from INNER AFRICA arrived in Egypt with the 25th dynasty? Understanding this cosmology and world view is critical to understanding the origins of ancient Egyptian people and culture.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ In the sense that this is about Nat Geo. We have about 4 or 5 other threads dedicated to the meaning or symbology of black in ancient Egypt.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
^^Doug stop being Naughty. Listen to the forum moderator, before he deletes this thread.
.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
If he deletes it that is proof that this forum is down the toilet.
The skin color of the AE is related to their world view and identity which relates to the origin and development of Egyptian culture and people IN AFRICA. It is one and the same and cannot be separated. In any culture the symbolism and cosmology is what tells you about who the people were, how they identified themselves and where they felt they fit into the grand scheme of creation. The ancient Egyptians were black because they originated among populations from inner Africa. Their symbolism and cosmology reflects this...
National Geographic and any other nut who wants to "claim" Egypt as a white civilization HAS TO obscure and hide the meanings of this symbolism because it is overtly obvious that these people considered themselves and their connection to inner Africa as sacred. That would include making black skin and identity sacred as a literal and symbolic aspect of this connection as well.
But of course this won't sit well with the white snow Queen crew and their goal to make the identity of purity and whiteness sacred FOR EVERYBODY to the exclusion of anything else.
Posted by Grumman f6f (Member # 14051) on :
Djehuti wrote: ''Doug and Rasol, you guys are getting slightly off topic. This thread is about Nat Geo.''
Yet you say you aren't a moderator.
Slightly off topic? If it is 'slightly' off topic and I don't see that it is, then leave it alone. Would you rather say National Geographic is simply wrong and suggest other posters should just not comment... even though they know NG is wrong and can point out where and why they are wrong. It isn't anything to be alarmed about. You already have several disgruntled posters for a few reasons and there is no need to get out the slightly off topic spiel and destroy point, counter-point.
Get off of it Djehuti.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Wow, talking about "get off it". Speak for yourself! I just made a suggestion. And I do, have a little pet-peeve when we have a good discussion only to veer of topic for a great deal of time.
So do you want to continue with Nat Geo or just discuss the symbology of black in Egyptian cultural contexts?
Posted by Grumman f6f (Member # 14051) on :
As you well know most topics do veer off on occasion but they usually wind up returning again before long. Don't stifle intelligent debate.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ With respect to staying on topic. I will answer this question.....and it will be my last post in this thread on this topic...
quote:Doug G: What does JET BLACK mean in the color symbolism of ancient Egypt?
All of your paragraphs in faux-support of your contention are either suppositions or wild burden of proof fallacies.
As such, you have no choice really, but to profer fallacious argument because you don't have any proof.
Nor do your suppositions make any sense, not withstanding that they are not actual evidence of anything - *All the Gods are painted blue-Black- soil is not relevant to this*.
This is what Wally understands and relates via his website.
Kem-ho -> which is translated as Black Face, is a title for "God", in mdw ntr.
So the conversation can't really go anywhere, while you repeat your suppositions while offering no proof.
quote:I have seen not one reference to any quote, phrase, image or anything else from ancient Egypt to support anything for or against my argument.
^ Exactly. This statement would be true even if you were arguing that space aliens built the pyramids.
That's *why* it's a burden of proof fallacy.
When you make and argument - you accept the burden to prove it.
You must provide evidence for it.
It is fallacious to argue that no one has provided you with evidence *against* your claims.
That is the *very definition* of burden of proof fallacy.
Nothing personal, and I like your writing on the topic.
But I can't credit your suppositions, because they are simply not evidence, and do not make sense, no matter how *hard* you argue for them, or for how many posts, you repeat them.
Posted by Masonic Rebel (Member # 9549) on :
Note For those who try to use the "Black Soil" Argument have no Shot of protraying the Eygptains as Non-Black or African because before the Story of
Adam and Eve
THERE WAS
God KHNEMU making human beings out of the clay of the Earth on his Potter Wheel
From the Temple of Esna in Kemet
Well it looks like Rasol and Doug have different interpretations of the original creation story, but the Fact is National Geographic have a History of misrepresenting African People specially on the subject of KEMET(Egypt)
Shameful Racism
Posted by sportbilly (Member # 14122) on :
So what! Not-So Geographic did a CYA piece--big hairy deal!
Am I supposed to be pacified because they made a couple of depictions of Taharqa and the "blacks" (with whom their artists were careful to make sure the Egyptians wouldn't be confused) drawn from a worm's eye perspective? This is just a bone thrown to the black masses. Well I'm no dog.
National Punk-a-graphic says--- "Every time the magazine’s art department attempted to depict ancient Egyptians, we received letters complaining about their appearance."
Gee, can't possibly imagine why!
Neo-Geo continues--- "This was despite every effort of talented artists and hard-working researchers to be accurate and fair."
"Fair?" Is this some sort of beauty contest? This is science and history. Either something is factual, proven and true or it isn't. I want people to be "fair" when they decide whether to vote someone off Survivor. For history all I want is for them to have the courage to tell the truth. And as for National Creep-tastic's self-pity over how we don't appreciate all their hard work, I guess they're not blame, huh? It's just their bad luck that in over a hundred years of publication in none of their depictions of the Egyptians have they ever drawn the conclusion that the Egpytians were black. I suppose it would have been too hard for the editors to accept something like this:
Clearly I'm not a professional artist, but that's not the point. I'm just a guy with a scanner, a little free time and a smattering of illustration talent who's willing to tell the truth. Natl Geo has no place looking for pity because they were too dishonest to do the same.
Finally Nasty Pornagraphic says--- "Before you respond on the skin color issue, I recommend that you review how scientists currently view race at..." This is supposed to sound condescending and snide. As if the editor's were saying, "Before you negro's go thinking you have the requisite intellect to question your betters, refer to our finely crafted piece of propaganda..." But what it sounds like is: We know you didn't swallow this bullsh*t explanation but before you engage your brains and dismiss us as racially-biased morons please read some more of our shameless historical whitewashing--maybe you'll fall for it this time.
And I'm sure everyone's noted their MO. How they say their lie first and state it as fact ("Did...King Tut's grandmother have Nubian ancestry?") and only at the very end do they put in their qualifier/disclaimer (This bust...has inspired claims that she did).
Of course what goes unsaid is that only Eurocentric ideologues like the honest folks at Nitwit Geographic ever made that claim in the first place. And what's this "darkening" crap? Typically sculptues, murals and paintings fade over time --most of the Ehyptians self-portraits have done this-- but darkening?
Dammit! I'm so f**king PISSED right now! I renew my modest call for Al Takuri, Djehuti, Rasol and Wally to collaborate on a book setting the record straight. Either that or I swear to kidnap all of them, lock them in a dungeon and not let them out until they produce a finished manuscript! Enough is enough.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ With respect to staying on topic. I will answer this question.....and it will be my last post in this thread on this topic...
quote:Doug G: What does JET BLACK mean in the color symbolism of ancient Egypt?
That is lame rasol. I thought you could do better. Wally's page is more of a general overview of Egyptian art as designed to counter Eurocentric bias in representations of ancient Egypt. It doesn't go anywhere near the depth of understanding of Egyptian symbolism that I am referencing. I feel you are being lazy. And this whole idea of trying to come at me with some lame 'eurocentric' argument is becoming tiresome. You know damn well that I don't buy into that bullsh*t. So the implication that what I am saying stems from Eurocentrism is retarded and quite stupid. You know better than that.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ The question itself is a strawmen.
No it isn't. It is a question that is valid and your answer shows that you have a shallow view of Egyptian cosmology. It only goes deep enough to say "look the Egyptians were black" to those who espouse Eurocentrism. However, as far as going deeper than that, it is weak.
Come on and cut the bull crap cut and paste pat answers you give the lame troll boys on this forum and really go deeper. You can't bullsh*t me with your knowledge of forms of debate and terminology. Impress me with some ACTUAL attempts to even DO some research into Egyptian cosmology. And no, going to wally's website does not constitute any REAL research...
quote:Originally posted by rasol: You were asked for 'black soil' evidence.
And? Here we go again with you trying to put my explanation of Egyptian cosmology concerning the color black in ALL of its various meanings and implications into simply "black soil".
Don't come at me with that lame stuff you use for average trolls. Actually put up or shut up. Stop trying to pretend I am saying that black in ancient Egypt simply meant black soil. Stop bullsh*tting and address what I said.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: You have none, period.
Right. I have no patience for nonsense arguments.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: All of your paragraphs in faux-support of your contention are either suppositions or wild burden of proof fallacies.
Please spare me the bogus attempts to sound smart. Why don't you pick up a book or study some Egyptian monuments before you try to sound flip.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: As such, you have no choice really, but to profer fallacious argument because you don't have any proof.
Was that supposed to mean something? More rhetoric. Address what I said and stop wasting my time. If you can't go out and do some REAL research and provide a REAL argument, then don't bullsh*t me. I do research I go to the university libraries and examine old manuscripts and images for myself. I do my own interpretations of the facts. My stuff is not spoon fed from someone else. Either propose a serious attempt at debate or leave it be. Because all you are doing is exposing your own shallow concept of Egyptian symbolism which is as bad as Eurocentric attempts to OVER SIMPLIFY Egyptian symbolism. The point is that most Egyptian symbolism had MULTIPLE levels of meanings. It wasn't simply either or. In order to understand those meanings you have to have a wide frame of reference and understanding of Egyptian cosmology in order to understand why the black man represents the LIVING EARTH and the KA of Osiris in flesh as the LIVING SEED. Only an idiot would deny the obvious implications.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Nor do your suppositions make any sense, not withstanding that they are not actual evidence of anything - *All the Gods are painted blue-Black- soil is not relevant to this*.
Spare me that "all I am gonna do is try and turn your blue black words in to something showing how clever I can type" arguments and stop half stepping. Either you know what you are talking about or you don't. All that rah rah is just a bunch of chatter about nothing.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: This is what Wally understands and relates via his website.
Kem-ho -> which is translated as Black Face, is a title for "God", in mdw ntr.
Sigh. Osiris was not simply a "God" in the western sense, which exposes the problem. Western concepts of deity are ONE SIDED and FLAT compared to the multi faceted symbolism of the East and Egypt. Osiris was not SIMPLY a "god" but a SYMBOL of something. But again, you are so full of bull sh*t trying to pass off the complex symbolism surrounding Isis, Horus and Osiris in to a one sentence quote from Wally's website. What sort of nonsense is that? You call that research? Please , don't make me laugh.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: So the conversation can't really go anywhere, while you repeat your suppositions while offering no proof.
What you really mean is YOU can't go anywhere further than Wally's corner afro mart to get your sh*t, because what you got ain't jack. Stop making yourself look silly with that ghetto logic.
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:I have seen not one reference to any quote, phrase, image or anything else from ancient Egypt to support anything for or against my argument.
^ Exactly. This statement would be true even if you were arguing that space aliens built the pyramids.
I was talking about YOU rasol.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: That's *why* it's a burden of proof fallacy.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rasol: [QB] When you make and argument - you accept the burden to prove it.
You must provide evidence for it.
It is fallacious to argue that no one has provided you with evidence *against* your claims.
That is the *very definition* of burden of proof fallacy.
Again, stop trying to pretend that your limited understanding of forms of argument represent AN ARGUMENT. Put up something or stop with the nonsense.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Nothing personal, and I like your writing on the topic.
This aint personal either: you are full of **** if you think "duh: osiris was god and he was DEE man and because that is illogical becuz it is like you know undebatabuhl that he wuz de man" that you quoted from Wally's website represents an argument. Stop playing yourself.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: But I can't credit your suppositions, because they are simply not evidence, and do not make sense, no matter how *hard* you argue for them, or for how many posts, you repeat them.
Stop trippin over yourself pretending sentences that say a whole lot of nothing mean something.
Why don't you actually go find some facts and stop with the bull-sh*t?
You are offending me with the lame ass kid's style nonsense you keep bringing.
If the only reason that people are interested in Egypt is to prove that they were black, then they are doing ancient Egyptian culture and history a disservice. A culture that spanned 3000 years and had many, many variations of cultural symbolism and a deep cosmological system cannot be simplified into neat little bite size packages. That is the NONSENSE that Europeans do and why their way of looking at life is ridiculous.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Is this supposed to be positive or represent Egyptian thought:
Looks negative to me and un Egyptian.
Posted by sportbilly (Member # 14122) on :
I happen to be rather fond of snakes Doug, and of AE in general. And the only "thought" it represents is that depicting Egyptians as blacks isn't a stretch as the guys at NG would like to pretend it is. In fact, it's the only way to show the AE that feels right. I did this months ago BTW. Admittedly I don't do stuff like this often enough, --nor well enough-- to even call it a hobby, just a way to pass this or that lazy Saturday afternoon every once in a while. Now that football season's over I may even find time to do another one--til March Madness that is! Looking at the Taharqa painting from NG made me see red. THOSE guys have real talent, but they prostituted themselves for a few pieces of silver so some white publishers could stroke their own egos using their rag as a soapbox to argue thinly veiled racist doctrines. Sad.
And I feel all of us have the privilege, maybe even obligation, to express what the AE mean to us, and express however we can. And in this forum I see value in everyone's contributions-- hell, I see value in the fact that a forum like this even exists!-- particularly the most prolific posters, yourself included Doug. Al Takuri does it with razor-sharp insights that ALWAYS make things clear (not to mention he's funny as hell!)Wally does it with linguistic breadth that would probably make Champollion blush, Myra and Djehuti do it with their own brands of historical analyses and altruism etc. This pic is simply one expresion of mine, on one particular day. Sure beats the hell out of a day's-long pissing contest, doesn't it? Forgive me if I think this forum is good for more than angry and ugly flame wars. BTW I don't ascribe quality to the picture--it was something I did for personal consumption a wihle back and felt compelled to stick on the forum tonight in light of how lazy and contemptable NG's "artists" were. To wit: if I could slap together something truthful with my glorified doodles those idiots certainly could have done something better, or at the very least something honest!
If you think I've posted it as some "certification" of my talent or to draw notice, then you missed the point. This isn't an art forum. Even if it was nobody could possibly depict the AE better than they did themselves. Respectful, sometimes fanciful, homages are the best we could ever hope to do. That's all the pic is. But given your comment below it seems you would have hardly cared anyway.
Doug Says: "Looks negative to me and un Egyptian."
Don't start, okay? One flame war for the night should be enough for you. Take some time for yourself and chill if you need to, or go somewhere else with the antagonistic stuff, all right? If you're still looking for someone to argue with then keep looking, because you haven't found them. I'm not going to do the back and forth with you.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
The art is nice, I was talking about the snakes as symbols of evil and they look like they are choking her. In all likelihood they are supposed to represent her protection. It wasn't meant to be flame on at burger king at all. It was just a personal observation.
Posted by sportbilly (Member # 14122) on :
My mistake then. Ignore anything above that might have sounded critical, except for the flame wars part. You and Rasol are two of the sharpest cats in here. You put a clobbering to end ALL clobberings on Yonis the other day and while you probably didn't think too much of it, for someone like me who only recently got into this AE thing it was quite a thing to see. I've read the works of Van Sertima, Chancellor Williams and of course Anta Diop and the way you guys flat-out crushed Yonis's euro-parroting with an avalanche of facts was the culmination of everything the late Drs' Diop and Williams hoped for. We finally put the stereotypical rhetoric and pseudo-science that Eurocentric "scholars" had manufactured as the "case" for white-egypt to the test and I saw it put forward by someone who knew how to press the case (even though he proved not to have one)...and I saw it destroyed spetacularly by a reasoned explanation of the pictoral and linguisitic facts. But best of all it was done so damned easily. Just reading it I could see you guys had the ease that came with knowing your case inside and out, like teachers explaining gravity to a particularly dim-witted and obnoxious student. No condescension or insults just facts. He referenced the 400 Stela, you gave the complete passages of the same. He cites a picture, you cite three. Classic!
Am I putting you up for sainthood, no. But all one need do is see how those "normal" forums are, where people wildly congratulate each other for weak-ass assertions that would get them crushed if they ever brought them here (notice that they never do?) and you realize this really is where it's at. You guys bring the facts while those "normal" folks are still depserately telling themselves that Nefertiti's bust is a white woman. We got a good thing going here. Let's not blow it.
You don't see the ignorant troglodytes in those, as Yonis put it "normal" forums doing that do you? Guess being brain-dead lemmings has it's advantages, huh? Our intellectual honesty is what makes us truthful, but civility is what will make our interpretation of history prevail. Without it we're just another bunch of screaming ideologues trying to make a couple of converts to swell our own egos.
Let's make it a point to celebrate the AE any way we can, long as it's truthful. Write a poem, or better yet a book! Make a cartoon like that Maatkari guy did. But dammit DO something!
Rock on dude!
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
Hold up
quote:rasol:
^ Here are some further reasons why I can't quite agree with you Doug.
* One of the problems with trying to make the Black Gods of Egypt into *soil symbol/fertility symbol* is that virtually -all the Gods- of Egypt are Black.
Moreover virtually all Kemetic Pharaoh are painted symbolically as pitch-Black when they are Gods, or revered or powerful or sacred.
Jet Black Tut.
Now, Eurocentrists have tried to "deal" with this, by making the opposite argument.... that Black symbolises *death*.
But this is also provably wrong, because of the living images of Kemetians who are nontheless painted Jet Black.
Black symbolizes life, or moreso the basis for life, fertility, such as in the fertility of the black, and therefore fertile soil.
Oh, but because many gods are black, making them all soil/fertility symbols doesn't make much sense.
Ok.
So they are likely just black because it's a sacred color! Because it is Kemet after all !
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): Hold up
quote:rasol:
^ Here are some further reasons why I can't quite agree with you Doug.
* One of the problems with trying to make the Black Gods of Egypt into *soil symbol/fertility symbol* is that virtually -all the Gods- of Egypt are Black.
Moreover virtually all Kemetic Pharaoh are painted symbolically as pitch-Black when they are Gods, or revered or powerful or sacred.
Jet Black Tut.
Now, Eurocentrists have tried to "deal" with this, by making the opposite argument.... that Black symbolises *death*.
But this is also provably wrong, because of the living images of Kemetians who are nontheless painted Jet Black.
Black symbolizes life, or moreso the basis for life, fertility, such as in the fertility of the black, and therefore fertile soil.
Oh, but because many gods are black, making them all soil/fertility symbols doesn't make much sense.
Ok.
So they are likely just black because it's a sacred color! Because it is Kemet after all !
If I remember correctly those statues are inscribed to the effect that Tut had become the Ka of Osiris. That means he has returned to the earth from whence he came and has become a symbol of the fertile earth from which creation sprang forth in the beginning. I have to check though.
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ Yes, the fact that they are all Black.
The fact is there is *no soil* involved in their being black and you are required to insert soil arbitrarily. [might as well insert flying saucers]
The fact is that you are trying to channel and essentially racist ruse of Europeans into "your" interpretation, which makes no sense because it's based on Eurocentric lie to begin with.
This is nothing but your typical "black" nazi rhetorics, you don't care anything about the cosmology and diety of AE's. All you do is attempt to use a long dead people as a tool in your personal vendetta against "eurocentric", this with your reactive and racialist tantrum. Your whole presence at this forum is based on the defense of a five letter word, B-L-A-C-K. Other than that you don't give a shi/t and know NOTHING about what they truely belived in or give the slightest attempt to objectively understand their society and religion without connecting it with the current political climate. Ain't that right rasshole?
You're just an agenda driven damaged soul. What you need is to take your fight with "eurocentricts" on another level without involving these people who had nothing to do with the current racial problems you suffer. Basically be a man and stop hiding behind some ambigious meaning of "black" during the time of a now long gone society.
Posted by Masonic Rebel (Member # 9549) on :
^You don’t have a Problem with the Word "Kem" so why do you cry so badly when "Black" in reference to Ethnicity is used in describing the Kememu (Ancient Egyptians)
You are not making Sense the Damage Soul maybe yours
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Indeed. So what if Rasol has an agenda against Eurocentrics whose agenda has spanned centuries and has done more harm to people than almost any agenda anywhere else! Don't you think Rasol's agenda to end Eurocentrism is more justified? Don't you think an agenda based on facts is better than those based on lies?
Oh, I can't believe I missed this
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: ^^Doug stop being Naughty. Listen to the forum moderator, before he deletes this thread..
LOL Let's get one thing clear, if I was really a forum moderator, I would delete every ridiculous post you make with your pseudo-study nonsense findings!
Silly posters like you make me wish I was a moderator.
Posted by Novel (Member # 14348) on :
If someone has decided to become a champion for something true, why is that something to ridicule, given it is true.
"don't see it, don't hear it, don't speak against it".
Today "See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" is commonly used to describe someone who doesn't want to be involved in a situation, or someone turning a willful blind eye to the immorality of an act.
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ Yes, the fact that they are all Black.
The fact is there is *no soil* involved in their being black and you are required to insert soil arbitrarily. [might as well insert flying saucers]
The fact is that you are trying to channel and essentially racist ruse of Europeans into "your" interpretation, which makes no sense because it's based on Eurocentric lie to begin with.
You know, come to think of it, I guess it does make sense not to assume such a thing given your other points.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): Hold up
quote:rasol:
^ Here are some further reasons why I can't quite agree with you Doug.
* One of the problems with trying to make the Black Gods of Egypt into *soil symbol/fertility symbol* is that virtually -all the Gods- of Egypt are Black.
Moreover virtually all Kemetic Pharaoh are painted symbolically as pitch-Black when they are Gods, or revered or powerful or sacred.
Jet Black Tut.
Now, Eurocentrists have tried to "deal" with this, by making the opposite argument.... that Black symbolises *death*.
But this is also provably wrong, because of the living images of Kemetians who are nontheless painted Jet Black.
Black symbolizes life, or moreso the basis for life, fertility, such as in the fertility of the black, and therefore fertile soil.
Oh, but because many gods are black, making them all soil/fertility symbols doesn't make much sense.
Ok.
So they are likely just black because it's a sacred color! Because it is Kemet after all !
If I remember correctly those statues are inscribed to the effect that Tut had become the Ka of Osiris. That means he has returned to the earth from whence he came and has become a symbol of the fertile earth from which creation sprang forth in the beginning. I have to check though.
Well, in that case...
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ Noise notwithstanding, black soil argument remains moot. It's really a classic example of not knowing how to make a good argument, and so not understanding when you've made a bad one.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^
quote:Doug writes: it is impossible to say that in Egyptian cosmology that black NEVER symbolized.....
This occurs when you advocate a theory based on the *impossiblity* of disproving it, and incorrectly imagine this as a kind of proof, when it is in fact a tell-tale sign of a bad argument.
Actually you can follow the word "symobilized...." with anything.
As in, "it's impossible to say that the pyramids NEVER symbolized "space Aliens".
^ Yes you're right, it is *impossible to prove a negative*, that's exactly why it's a non-valid argument.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
Jet Black Tut.
Space is Black.
Aliens come from space.
Therefore Tut is a space alien
His Black skin symbolises this.
^
quote:Noise notwithstanding, black soil argument remains moot. It's really a classic example of not knowing how to make a good argument, and so not understanding when you've made a bad one.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Yonis: This is nothing but your typical "black" nazi rhetorics, you don't care anything about the cosmology and diety of AE's. All you do is attempt to use a long dead people as a tool in your personal vendetta against "eurocentric", this with your reactive and racialist tantrum.
quote:^Masonic wrote: You don’t have a Problem with the Word "Kem" so why do you cry so badly when "Black" in reference to Ethnicity is used in describing the Kememu (Ancient Egyptians)
You are not making Sense the Damage Soul may be yours.
^ Yes Yonis usually begins with frutrated ad hominem *projecting*, after having lost his argument.
It's fun to watch and 'angry Yonis'.
He's like a little puppy chasing his own tail, [the Black man who denies he's Black] and snarling viciously all the while.
Yonis you should listen to Masonic, he is right, and, you know it. Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ Noise notwithstanding, black soil argument remains moot. It's really a classic example of not knowing how to make a good argument, and so not understanding when you've made a bad one.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^
quote:Doug writes: it is impossible to say that in Egyptian cosmology that black NEVER symbolized.....
This occurs when you advocate a theory based on the *impossiblity* of disproving it, and incorrectly imagine this as a kind of proof, when it is in fact a tell-tale sign of a bad argument.
Actually you can follow the word "symobilized...." with anything.
As in, "it's impossible to say that the pyramids NEVER symbolized "space Aliens".
^ Yes you're right, it is *impossible to prove a negative*, that's exactly why it's a non-valid argument.
Again, since I never said that black ONLY meant soil, your argument is meaningless. Hence, go pick up a book and at least TRY TO ACT as if you aren't lazy and relying on trite arguments against "isms" in order to avoid doing more than one click research....
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Again, since I never said that black ONLY meant soil, your argument is meaningless.
^Incorrect.
You were never accused-by-me of saying black only means soil.
So your argument is yet another strawmen.
And yes, I did correctly cite you for strawman arguments, and burden of proof fallacy, which you continue to do, even now.
My position has meaning.
However you have failed completely to address it. Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
Jet Black Tut.
Space is Black.
Aliens come from space.
Therefore Tut is a space alien
His Black skin symbolises this.
^
quote:Noise notwithstanding, black soil argument remains moot. It's really a classic example of not knowing how to make a good argument, and so not understanding when you've made a bad one.
Wrong.
Words have power. The importance of words in Egyptian cosmology were a paramount aspect of their power. The various names of a deity were said to reveal its power. What you are doing is playing word games.
Black is the symbol infinite essence of the universe from which all life springs. This essence is the womb of creation which births the physical universe as stars or "suns" within the womb. It is the material essence of the universe upon which the will of the creator caused all life to be manifest. It is within this infinite essence that the seed exists representing the infinite creative force that permeates the physical universe. It is from this infinite creative force that all things are created. It is to this infinite essence of the universe that all things return. It is this aspect of the universe that is eternal and unending. Energy is never created or destroyed it changes form. The earth contains within it the same creative force that permeates all the material universe as the seed or creative force that causes plants to grow and life to be developed and sustained on this planet. Life on this planet originates from the same material essence of the planet that pervades the universe. It is to this material essence that all life on earth will return and be used to generate new life. This cycle of life, death and new life is everlasting and eternal. The seed or life force of the earth is that which caused man to be formed from the clay and rise. Within the earth and within man burns the same sun that represents the infinite power of creation manifest in the material plane. The fire that burns within is the fire that burns within creation and represents an aspect of the divine creative essence of all creation and consciousness. The risen seed or "sun" of the earth is the manifestation of this creative essence in the flesh.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Doug M writes: Wrong.
Words have power.
Of course they do.
I never claimed otherwise.
So how would you make -WRONG- anything stated by me, by claiming words have power, which I agree with?
You can't.
This is another strawmen fallacy.
The only thing you're evidencing at this point Doug is desparation, and inability to construct and argument free of elementary logical fallacy.
Look, I'll show you how::
1) You've already admitted that you there is -no evidence- for your claims.
2) Your last recourse is that there is no proof *against them*, either.
That defines a *moot* argument, via burden of proof fallacy.
Logically speaking this is -> THE END, of your argument.
[the rest of your reply is restatement of suppositions, and not proof - which = logical fallacy ad nauseum]
Truth is, your entire, now redundant argument has been given a fair hearing, addressed in full, and then properly dismissed.
But I will entertain, for awhile longer your pointless-stubborn persistence just for the fun of it.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Well since you are adept and adroit at avoiding what was WRONG with what you said I will keep it simple.
The idea that the Egyptians felt that:
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
Jet Black Tut.
Space is Black.
Aliens come from space.
Therefore Tut is a space alien
His Black skin symbolises this.
Is WRONG and a corny attempt to sound clever and make an analogy about the depth and complexity of ancient Egyptian thought that I explained.
All you are doing is talking a lot and saying nothing because you HAVE NOTHING to say other than: "I disagree". That is fine, but don't act as if all this extra WORDAGE has any POWER to defend WHY you disagree. It ultimately reveals how LAZY you are in NOT providing ANY direct quote, reference or imagery from Egypt to SUPPORT your point of view. The only thing you use like a crutch is the "eurocentric" argument about KMT meaning black soil. It doesn't and what I said had NOTHING to do with the name the Egyptians created for their country. So the END of YOUR argument was when you said you disagreed and you should have left it there, because NOTHING you have provided has amounted to anything more than wasting time saying what could be said in two words: "I disagree".
So when you are ready to do more than act Denzel Washington and coach people on the FORMS of debate, let me know. This isn't about TALKING, it is about FACTS and EVIDENCE. The FACTS and EVIDENCE have been provided by myself and you have provided nothing but a single sentence from Wally's website. Man that still is funny.
When you feel like really reading up on and learning Egyptian cosmology and debating it, get at me.
Other wise, give this debate a rest, because it is corny.
And here is a reference to Osiris as son of Geb and the lord of the earth as the force of creation that springs from it as fertility and the life force the permeates the earth and the seed of life itself:
quote: Thou art the bringer in of the remotest boundaries, and art stable of heart, and thy two feet are lifted up; thou art the heir of Geb and of the sovereignty of the Two Lands, and he (i.e., Geb) hath seen thy splendid qualities, and hath commanded thee to guide the lands (i.e., the world) by thy hand so long as times [and seasons] endure.
Thou hast made this earth with thy hand, the waters thereof, the winds thereof, the trees and herbs thereof, the cattle thereof of every kind, the birds thereof of every kind, the fish thereof of every kind, the creeping things thereof, and the four-footed beasts thereof. The land of the desert belongeth by right to the son of Nut, and the Two Lands have contentment in making him to rise upon the throne of his father like Ra.
Thou rollest up into the horizon, thou settest the light above the darkness, thou illuminest [the Two Lands] with the light from thy two plumes, thou floodest the Two Lands like the Disk at the beginning of the dawn. Thy White Crown pierceth the height of heaven saluting the stars, thou art the guide of every god. Thou art perfect in command and word. Thou art the favoured one of the Great Company of the Gods, and thou art the beloved one of the Little Company of the Gods.
Thy sister [Isis] acted as a protectress to thee. She drove [thy] enemies away, she averted seasons [of calamity from thee], she recited the word (or, formula) with the magical power of her mouth, [being] skilled of tongue and never halting for a word, being perfect in command and word. Isis the magician avenged her brother. She went about seeking for him untiringly.
Osiris as the divine force of will that created the universe symbolized by Ra, representing the latent force of creation within the physical realm which permeates all things and the earth itself:
quote: "Homage to thee, O Osiris, the lord of eternity, the king of the gods, thou who hast many names, whose forms of coming into being are holy, whose attributes are hidden in the temples, whose Double is most august (or venerated). Thou art the Chief of Tettu (or Busiris), the Great One who dwelleth 2. in Sekhem (Letopolis), the lord to whom praises are offered in the nome of Athi, the Chief of the divine food in Annu (On, or Heliopolis), and the lord who is commemorated in the {Hall (or City) of} two-fold Right and Truth. Thou art the Hidden Soul, the lord of Qereret (Elephantine), the holy one in the city of the White Wall (Memphis), the Soul of Ra, and thou art of his own body. Offerings and oblations are made to thy satisfaction in 3. Sutenhenen (Herakleopolis), praise in abundance is bestowed upon thee in Nart, and they Soul hath been exalted as lord of the Great House in Khemennu (Hermopolis). Thou art he who is greatly feared in Shas-hetep, the lord of eternity, the Chief of Abtu (Abydos), thy seat extendeth into the land of holiness (Underworld), and thy name is firmly established in the mouth of mankind. 4. Thou art the substance of {which were made} the two lands (i.e., Egypt), thou art Tem, the divine food of the doubles, thou art the chief of the company of the gods, thou art the operative and beneficent Spirit among the spirits, thou drawest thy waters from the abyss of heaven, thou bringeth along the north wind at eventide and air for thy nostrils to the satisfaction of thy heart. 5. Thy heart germinateth, thou producest the light for divine food, the height of heaven and the starry gods obey thee, thou openest the great pylons {of heaven}, and thou art he unto whom praises are sung in the southern heaven, and to whom adorations are performed in the northern heaven. The stars which never set 6. are under the seat of thy face, and the stars which never rest are thy habitations; and unto thee offerings are made according to the decree of the god Geb.
quote:Doug writes: All you are doing is talking a lot.
^ Projection.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Well since you are adept and adroit at avoiding what was WRONG with what you said.
translation: I dismiss your strawmen arguments and increasingly "windy" writings.
Truth. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ You guys are still at it I see. Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Egyptian cosmology being deep and complex and based on a language with many complexities of meaning that are not easily understood is a problem. However, some things are straight forward. Black was the name of the country and it is no doubt due to the fact that the inhabitants of the country viewed themselves as black. At the same token however, black as a color had many other symbolic uses within Egyptian thought outside the name of the country, which also REINFORCES the identity and culture of Egypt as being African.
Just as the Nile Flows from the South, black people have been coming from the south since the beginning of time and are the first people of ancient Egypt. There was no other origin for the aboriginal populations of Nile Valley in Egypt. Therefore, just as they followed the Nile and depended on it for sustenance, so too did they record this in their mythology.
NG, of course, is not making any sense in trying to avoid all of this by claiming the first "black" kings in Egypt came during the 25th dynasty.
As for the symbolism of the of the primeval mound of the earth and the seed representing the divine force of will as symbolized by Ra, there are many Egyptian texts that can be referenced. The concept of the creative will as symbolized by the earth, the semen (seed) and sun are seen in over and over in Egyptian cosmology. Min, Geb and Osiris are symbolic of the creative force of the earth which propagates life through the seed/semen. The sun is symbolic of the radiant energies of creation that flows from the creator. The primeval mound of creation becomes the latent material of the universe from which all things are created. These concepts are seen throughout Egyptian cosmological history in many forms and combinations and it is by understanding these combinations of symbols that you can understand their meaning. However, the nature of Eurocentric misunderstandings and discourse requires that many references to these works will often belittle or contradict the facts of the texts themselves. This isn't to be unexpected. One has to read the originals for oneself and look at the original scenes from the tombs and temples to understand their meaning.
National Geography is full of ****. I glimpsed at the lousy "black eygpt" edition they put out, knowing that it would piss me off, and sure enough, it did. Whoever put that load of crap out was obviously trying to say that ancient egypt was originally white or whatever before the so called Nubians invaded them. I am so sick of these lies. Of course, the impressionable public will foolishly deem it as the truth and therefore, the lies continues. Well, all I can say, is thank goodness for the internet and this site. I just had to vent for a minute,so please excuse my tone.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ If you thought the magazine issue is messed up, try taking the online quiz on the issue here!
All I gotta say is that the 2nd question is what got me to quit taking it as their answer was so hilariously stupid!
Welcome to the forum, by the way.
Posted by zaire (Member # 12004) on :
Thanks. I just checked out the dumb questions. I am currently reading the blog and I am happy with what I'm reading so far. People on the NG blog are opposing the edition and the fact that a white race and black could live right next to eachother. U guys should read it. I'm going to add something.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ It's not the fact that white people and black people could live right next to each other so much as the fact that 'Nubians' are black but the Egyptians who are also native to *Africa* only several miles away are not! By the way, which part of the blog do they discuss this? Can you give me a link?
Posted by Novel (Member # 14348) on :
^ LMAO Yup, that blog and all its questioning of the latest Tut reconstruction must be responsible for this ridiculous excuse for a Februrary (Black History month??) issue!
Posted by zaire (Member # 12004) on :
That's what I meant Djehuti. I wasn't clear I suppose. I read comments some people made after the magazine came out, and that's what I was referring to. I don't know why I get into these AE matters so much. I guess I'm just tired of the lies from the writings and tv. Maybe I was an AE in a past life. All I can say is that as I get older, I start to toss and carefully analyze what the so called white or non-white scientists and historians put out there as the truth. You gotta read between the lines all the time. Common sense tells one what's true sometimes.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Sometimes all one can do is just simple research on a subject and the more you verify, the more you know the truth.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Some more on the Egyptian dieties reflecting the life force of creation and continuity in the universe:
quote: The Speos Artemidos Inscription of Hatshepsut
The following translation is adapted from that made available in the following article:
James P. Allen, "The Speos Artemidos Inscription of Hatshepsut", Bulletin of the Egyptological Seminar 16 (2002), pp.1-17, pls.1+2.
[Spellings have been anglicised, some elements of Egyptian terminology have been altered slightly; otherwise, the translation represents James Allen's published work].
(1) [The living one, Horus Powerful of Life-Force; Two Ladies Fresh of] Years; Gold Falcon Divine of [Appearan]ce; Young God, Lord of the [Two] Land[s, King of Upper and Lower Egypt MAATKARE; Son] of Re, [Lord of] Appearance [HATSHEPSUT UNITED WITH AMUN, given life like the Sun forever - (2) she whose titulary has been set and remains like the sky, setting up the annals of her diligence on the cliff of Her of the Mountain Top toward the (3) rising of the lord of [rays] over the desert edge, when his flames are on the back of the two deserts.
The favourite place(s) [of] all the gods have had their braziers spread and (4) their chapels broadened, each (god) at the sanctuary he has desired, his life-force content with his thrones, (5) for I have stipulated the fulfillment of their enjoyment, their colonnades having been [ ... ]ed, the hidden place of the house's interior having been made defensive for it with respect to "bringing away the foot", (6) every (god) fashioned in his body of electrum of Upper Nubia, their festivals stable in (their) totality, (7) the register of festival-offerings (in effect) with respect to to its timing in adherence to the system of my making, the rites of its arrangement haveing been made firm, which (rites) he (the Sun) made in the past (8) for the first (gods).
My divine mind is looking out for posterity, the king's heart has thought of eternal continuity, because of the utterance of him who parts the ished-tree, Amun, (9) lord of millions, and I have magnified the Order he has desired. For it is known to me that he lives on it: it is my bread, and it is of its dew that I drink. I was (10) in one body with him, and he has brought me up to make the awe of him powerful in this land. I am one who Atum-Khepri, who made what is- made (11) know(ledgable], one whom the Sun has fated as established for him.
The shores are united under my supervision, the Black Land and the Red Land under terror of me, (12) my impressiveness making foreign lands bow down. For the uraeus on my front pacifies for it all lands < ... >. (13) Rashaut and Iuu cannot be concealed from my incarnation. Punt has [swollen] forth for me on <all its> field, (14) its trees bearing fresh myrrh. The roads that were blocked in both lanes are (now) trodden. (15) My troops, which were unequipped, have finery since my appearance as king.
The temple of the mistress of Qusae, which had <completely> (16) fallen into dissolution - the earth having swallowed its noble sanctuary, children dancing on its roof<s>, (17) no tutelary goddess causing fear, the lowly reckoning defencelessness in (her) absence, nor (18) her days of appearance having <be>en experienced - I hallowed it, built anew, fashioning its Leading Serpent of gold < ... > (19) in order to defend its town in the processional bark.
Great Pakhet, who roams the wadis, resident in the eastern desert, [was] s[eeking] (20) the rainstorm's paths, since there was no relevant libation-service that fetched water (for her). I have made her enclosure as [what this goddess] intende[d] (21) for her Ennead, the doorleaves of acacia inlaid with bronze, in [or]der that [they] might be [in it, her register of festival-offerings] (22) (in effect) with respect to (its) timing, the lay-priests learning of its time.
Hur and Hermopolis were im[poverish]ed of provisions. (23) I have hallowed the sacred precincts of their towns, established as a frequented place. Those who were in [ ... ] the storehouse (24) are (now) requisitioner(s) from it.
Since great Thoth, who came from the Sun, has been reveal[ing (this) to] me, I [have consecrated to] him an altar in (25) silver and gold and chests of cloth, every vessel set in its (proper) place. For the one authorised to see, the leader of (26) Atum's two Enneads, did not know how to do it, there being no knowledge in his house; the god's-fathers were empty-headed, [and there was no son who] learned from <his> father. (27) My incarnation's vision gives clarity of vision to those who shoulder the god. I have constructed his great temple of white stone of Tur[a], its gateways (28) of alabaster of Hatnub, the doorleaves of bronze of Asia, the reliefs on them in electrum, holy with (the image of) him of high plumes. I have [magni]fied (29) the incarnation of this god with a double festival of Nehebkau and the festival of Thoth, which I set for him anew (30) when they were (only) in the mouth and not on his calendar since the time when the conduct of the festival was single. I have multiplied the god's offering for him more (31) than what was before, by my acting for the Ogdoad - for Khnum in his forms and for Heqet, Renenet, (32) and Meshkenet, united to build my body; Nehmetawy, Nehbetka, She of Whom it is Said (33) that the Sky and Earth are Hers, and He in the Mummy Wrappings - in Hebenu.
The relevant towns are in a festival of witnessing to me with (the words) "Unknown! Unknown!" The enclosure (34) walls are in foundation , for I have established them and made them festive, giving the houses to [their] owner(s). Every [god] says to himself: "One who will achieve eternal continuity has come, (35) whom Amun has caused to appear as king of eternity on Horus' throne".
So listen, all you elite and multitude of commoners: I have done this by the plan of my mind. (36) I do not sleep forgetting, (but) have made form what was ruined. For I have raised up what was dismembered beginning (37) from the time when the Asiatics were in the midst of the Delta, (in) Avaris, with vagrants in their midst, (38) toppling what had been made. They ruled without the Sun, and he did not act by god's decree down to my (own) uraeus-incarnation. (Now) I am set (39) on the Sun's thrones, having been foretold from ages of years as one born to take possession. I am come as Horus, the sole (40) uraeus spitting fire at my enemies. I have banished the gods' abomination, the earth removing their footprints.
This is the system of the father (41) of [my] fathers, the Sun, who (now) comes at his dates. Damage will not happen (again), for Amun has decreed that my decree remain like the mountains. When the sun-disk shines, (42) it will spread rays over the titulary of my incarnation, and my falcon will be high on the top of the serekh for the course of eternity.
AGAIN ALL THESE CON-ARTIST DJEHUTI NICKS. IT'S JUST SICKENING! HIM ANSWERING HIS OWN QUESTIONS WITH ANOTHER NICK. ASKING FOR SCANS WHICH ARE DUTIFULLY PROVIDED BY THIS 'FEMALE.' DOES HE GET OFF SEXUALLY ON DECEIVING PEOPLE?
The Black Madonna's are remnants of the Reversed Apartheid Era (1500-789) when Black's and Coloureds ruled Europe, calling themselves Blue Blooded. They might have been the last original Black and Coloured Europeans from before the White's invaded 5000 years ago. They maintained power through intermarriage. As they claimed Black superiority, they had no use for a White god. There are images which show White's in adoration for a Black Madonna, which to me looks quite sensational. The Vierge Noir de Puys was destroyed around the French Revolution, so what we see today is a copy. The French Revolution was anti-church, but also anti-Black supremacy. Some Renaissance paintings of Maria and Jesus show uneven cracking: the eyes and the mouth remain well preserved, while the skin (over paint, whitened?) shows great weathering. The beheading of the King and the Queen of France was a powerful message that these Nobles and Kings were not invincible.
Posted by White Nord (Member # 14093) on :
It seems as though one of you Afronuts have already posted on the first comment on the new thread on that forum! For God's sake stop trying to steal other people's culture and spreading your lies to these sites dedicated to nonbias Science! Posted by Nubian1984 (Member # 16955) on :
I cant believe Rasol tried to sound clever with the space alien crap.
Its very clear that black, re birth, fertiligy, and AE being black were very closely related. Its nothing far fetched. They even put the visual meaning on the tombs.
Nice try.
quote: Egyptian cosmology being deep and complex and based on a language with many complexities of meaning that are not easily understood is a problem. However, some things are straight forward. Black was the name of the country and it is no doubt due to the fact that the inhabitants of the country viewed themselves as black. At the same token however, black as a color had many other symbolic uses within Egyptian thought outside the name of the country, which also REINFORCES the identity and culture of Egypt as being African.
Just as the Nile Flows from the South, black people have been coming from the south since the beginning of time and are the first people of ancient Egypt. There was no other origin for the aboriginal populations of Nile Valley in Egypt. Therefore, just as they followed the Nile and depended on it for sustenance, so too did they record this in their mythology.
NG, of course, is not making any sense in trying to avoid all of this by claiming the first "black" kings in Egypt came during the 25th dynasty.
As for the symbolism of the of the primeval mound of the earth and the seed representing the divine force of will as symbolized by Ra, there are many Egyptian texts that can be referenced. The concept of the creative will as symbolized by the earth, the semen (seed) and sun are seen in over and over in Egyptian cosmology. Min, Geb and Osiris are symbolic of the creative force of the earth which propagates life through the seed/semen. The sun is symbolic of the radiant energies of creation that flows from the creator. The primeval mound of creation becomes the latent material of the universe from which all things are created. These concepts are seen throughout Egyptian cosmological history in many forms and combinations and it is by understanding these combinations of symbols that you can understand their meaning. However, the nature of Eurocentric misunderstandings and discourse requires that many references to these works will often belittle or contradict the facts of the texts themselves. This isn't to be unexpected. One has to read the originals for oneself and look at the original scenes from the tombs and temples to understand their meaning.
Osiris the earth and Isis as mother nature.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ I think it's more accurate to say the image above is reminicent of their parents (Geb and Nut) with Osiris being his father Geb the earth and Isis her mother Nut the sky. In mythology Nut the heavens would hover over her husband Geb with an erect penis stretching up toward her.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Isis and Nut both represent mother nature or the feminine principle of motherhood and nurturing in creation while the earth, geb or Osiris represent the male principle of the seed. One is the active principle or Male force which is ejaculation. The other is the passive principle, the feminine force or the nurturing womb. The active principle is the latent SEED (idea form/thought/concept/logos/will force/intent) bought into existence as the spark, light, sun or big bang by the infinite womb of the physical material universe. In other words the physical universe is the womb and birth chamber of the divine will which is the seed of life which is the latent hidden aspect of material existence. It is a fundamental reflection of duality in nature and the physical universe as a fundamental and essential aspect of creation. It represents the idea that life rises ,is sustained and regenerated from within the latent substance of the universe itself as a divine principle of eternal life. The male seed is nurtured and gestated to fruition by the feminine principle of nurturing. The heavens or sky is the mother of the stars and an expression of the cycles of birth death and regeneration(rebirth). Energy is never created nor destroyed it simply changes form, with change being the fundamental process at work in sustaining life itself and the origin of the concept of al-chemia , alchemy or now chemistry(and physics). In animals it happens through ejaculation into the womb. In plants fish and some other species, the male seed is spread by the wind, birds, bees or ocean currents and carried to the feminine receptacle. It is all a reflection of the same cosmological concept.
Posted by Kemit11 (Member # 16939) on :
I am new to EgyptSearch.
I want to take the time to thank several of the poster who have contributed so much valuable information and insight.
Despite the vitriol, both rasol and Doug M have brought important issues to the table. We can disagree and still be civil and show respect. Also high on my list are Djehuti, Asar, al Takuri. There are others but I have not as yet had a chance to cover everything because unfortunately "trolls" come in and try to ruin threads.
PS what happened to Wally? Links to his web pages are dead.
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kemit11: I am new to EgyptSearch...
I want to take the time to thank several of the poster who have contributed so much valuable information and insight.
PS what happened to Wally? Links to his web pages are dead.
Thanks for asking Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Yes, I finally memorized your new web address. The death of geocities has caused me lose so many valuable websites and I'm still on a quest to find the new addresses of so many who were part of that gone domain. Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I can't do it myself with this device so someone please help me and xfer the below to theBLACK IS WRONG thread
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
And to think, all of this stems from Euros being unable to deal with their rationalization for trading in African flesh that Africans are somehow less human subhuman unhuman inhuman other than human or as one European count put it:
A guilty conscience is a hard thing to salve. It's easier to hate what invoked it than to rectify the wrong that called it forth and thus finally and for all time put it to rest.
Just like the USA southerners expurgated that passage from Volney's Ruins so are the antiblack crew seek to obfuscate the Blackness of the founders and up to New Kingdom ancient Egyptians now nearly 300 years later.
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You mean like your country of modern Egypt today, where the women use skin lighteners and bleach their hair?!
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