EgyptSearch Forums: Why was Abu simbel reffered to as "Nubia" in the 19th century?

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Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :

During this time, Belzoni met Johann Ludwig Burckhardt, who had adopted Arabic dress and managed to travel to places in Egypt no other European had yet seen. He described to Belzoni both the Abu Simbel temple in Nubia to Belzoni, and a part of a colossal statue known as the "Young Memnon" in Luxor.
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/belzoni.htm

It seems like the location of "Nubia" is constantly relocated.

Posted by Obelisk_18 (Member # 11966) on :

um, because abu simbel was in Nubia [Smile]

Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :

^Yep.. "Nubia" its self encompassed territory in both modern-day Southern Egypt AND Northern Sudan. Abu Simbel was far south of Aswan, hence, extant outside classical Egypt's borders and control.

Posted by Obelisk_18 (Member # 11966) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sundiata:
^Yep.. "Nubia" its self encompassed territory in both modern-day Southern Egypt AND Northern Sudan. Abu Simbel was far south of Aswan, hence, extant outside classical Egypt's borders and control.

outside egypt's borders, yes, , control? well,, dats another story [Smile]

Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sundiata:
Abu Simbel was far south of Aswan, hence, extant outside classical Egypt's borders and control.

Evergreen Writes:

When you say "Classical Egypt" what do you mean? Are you referencing Dynastic Egypt? As far as I am aware, there was no such thing as "Nubia" during the times of Dynastic Egypt.

Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :

^^Yes, I'm referring to Dynastic Egypt, though heed the quotations noting the arbitrary nature of the term in question. This simply denotes territory/kingdoms south of Egypt, with "Nubia" in quotations used for lack of a better term and to stay within context.

quote:
outside egypt's borders, yes, , control? well,, dats another story

Well, of course not if you count the New Kingdom, but it's completely wrong to suggest that Nehesu were always subordinates of the Egyptians, since that is far from the truth.

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :

Abu Simbel was the southern boundary marker for Egypt when it was created. Therefore, it was part of Egypt. But as been stated, "Nubia" is an ancient historical NON entity created by foreigners as a bucket in to which to put all the black Africans around upper Egypt. The purpose being to create some FAKE distinction between ancient dynastic Egyptians and black Africans, where any blacks in Egypt must have come from "Nubia", which is a way of pretending there were NO indigenous blacks in Egypt outside of those "Nubians". This is as if Upper Egypt did not stretch south of Aswan during most of the dynastic period. Even today this FAKE dichotomy can be seen in the way EGYPTIANS around Aswan are called Nubian as if they are from a different country or somehow are NOT Egyptian by nationality. But again, this only serves as a way of creating a fake entity for all the blacks so that they can be separated from other Egyptians.

Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Abu Simbel was the southern boundary marker for Egypt when it was created.

Doug.. When exactly did anyone "create" Abu Simbel as I'm pretty sure that it's an archaeological site/location? You must be referring to the temples built by Ramses, which doesn't at all indicate that Abu Simbel was "part of Egypt" more so than Ramses II building a monument in Nehesu territory to impress them and/or his wife. I've always thought it to be pretty clear, as far as evidence leads us, that ancient Egypt's cut off was at Aswan/Elephantine (give or take)...

As a matter of fact, settlements discovered near Abu Simbel suggest (from archaeology) religious implications, indicating that the Nehesu considered it a sacred place long before the Egyptians did.

Your assessment on "Nubia", I agree with and always have..

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sundiata:

quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Abu Simbel was the southern boundary marker for Egypt when it was created.
Doug.. When exactly did anyone "create" Abu Simbel as I'm pretty sure that it's an archaeological site/location? You must be referring to the temples built by Ramses, which doesn't at all indicate that Abu Simbel was "part of Egypt" more so than Ramses II building a monument in Nehesu territory to impress them and/or his wife. I've always thought it to be pretty clear, as far as evidence leads us, that ancient Egypt's cut off was at Aswan/Elephantine (give or take)...

As a matter of fact, settlements discovered near Abu Simbel suggest (from archaeology) religious implications, indicating that the Nehesu considered it a sacred place long before the Egyptians did.

Your assessment on "Nubia", I agree with and always have..

Egypt was never "cut off" at Aswan. What is the evidence for that? Egypt has always stretched past Aswan, to some where between the first and second cataracts. Abu Simbel was built to both impress his wife and honor her (she was also from the south, according to some) as well as impress the Kushites, who were even further South. Abu Simbel was definitely part of Egypt at that time as much of the Nile South of Egypt was under Egyptian control. One of the facts that people don't realize is that there are many sites along the Nile between Aswan and Abu Simbel, temples, fortresses and settlements that were built during various periods of Egyptian history, showing that this region was indeed part of Egypt for many years, most of which are now under Lake Nasser.

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :

While perhaps without a strict boundary type of
border as nations do today there certainly was
a territorial border distinguishing T3wy from her
nearest southern neighbor before annexation.

Some primary travelers' texts must speak of it.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=003382#000030

T3wy's natural southern border was where
limestone ended and sandstone began.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=003308#000009
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=003308#000022

Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:
Originally posted by Sundiata:

quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Abu Simbel was the southern boundary marker for Egypt when it was created.
Doug.. When exactly did anyone "create" Abu Simbel as I'm pretty sure that it's an archaeological site/location? You must be referring to the temples built by Ramses, which doesn't at all indicate that Abu Simbel was "part of Egypt" more so than Ramses II building a monument in Nehesu territory to impress them and/or his wife. I've always thought it to be pretty clear, as far as evidence leads us, that ancient Egypt's cut off was at Aswan/Elephantine (give or take)...

As a matter of fact, settlements discovered near Abu Simbel suggest (from archaeology) religious implications, indicating that the Nehesu considered it a sacred place long before the Egyptians did.

Your assessment on "Nubia", I agree with and always have..
Egypt was never "cut off" at Aswan. What is the evidence for that?

I'm mainly appealing to primary attestation by travelers, namely Herodotus, who asserted that Egyptians are all those who drink water below Elephantine. Though I'm compelled to rethink that seeing as how Jebel Barkal (I also mispoke when I attributed ancient (Sudanese) religious tradition to Abu Simbel, when I meant Jebel Barkal, which in reality supports you) was considered Egypt's southern border by Thutmosis, even though he was expanding his empire, but also I believe it was Sesostris who barred entrance into Egypt from the south, establishing a fortress at the second cataract, instead of the first. Al Takuri's links are very helpful as well..

Posted by sportbilly (Member # 14122) on :

Well if "Nubia" didn't exist during dynastic Egypt, then what did Nehesy mean? I thought it meant Nubian.

And what then did the Kemetians call the land that is/was considered Nubia?

Anyone got a map displaying the different municipalities and kingdoms throughout that area during dynasitc Egypt?

Posted by Obelisk_18 (Member # 11966) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sportbilly:
Well if "Nubia" didn't exist during dynastic Egypt, then what did Nehesy mean? I thought it meant Nubian.

And what then did the Kemetians call the land that is/was considered Nubia?

Anyone got a map displaying the different municipalities and kingdoms throughout that area during dynasitc Egypt?

Question 1. Nehesy actually jus meant "foreigner" or "barbarian" so the egyptians had no word that REALLY meant Nubian.
Question 2. The kemetians called Lower nubia (the northern part of which they absorbed into their own country) Ta-Seti, and Upper Nubia Kush/Wawat.
Question 3. Cant help ya there babe [Big Grin]

Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Obelisk_18:

quote:
Originally posted by sportbilly:

Well if "Nubia" didn't exist during dynastic Egypt, then what did Nehesy mean? I thought it meant Nubian.

And what then did the Kemetians call the land that is/was considered Nubia?

Anyone got a map displaying the different municipalities and kingdoms throughout that area during dynasitc Egypt?
Question 1. Nehesy actually jus meant "foreigner" or "barbarian" so the egyptians had no word that REALLY meant Nubian.

I remember discussing this term, i.e. Nehesu, but I don't recall its *etymology* and/or primary textual *corroboration for the meaning* mentioned above being brought to my attention. If it meant simply 'foreigner', why was it reserved [as far as my recollection takes me] for groups south of Egypt's borders? The same with 'barbarian'; is it likely that only the people right south to ancient Egyptian territory would be viewed as such?

Posted by Obelisk_18 (Member # 11966) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:

quote:
Originally posted by Obelisk_18:

quote:
Originally posted by sportbilly:

Well if "Nubia" didn't exist during dynastic Egypt, then what did Nehesy mean? I thought it meant Nubian.

And what then did the Kemetians call the land that is/was considered Nubia?

Anyone got a map displaying the different municipalities and kingdoms throughout that area during dynasitc Egypt?
Question 1. Nehesy actually jus meant "foreigner" or "barbarian" so the egyptians had no word that REALLY meant Nubian.
[URL=http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=002209#000000]i.e. [b] The same with 'barbarian'; is it likely that only the people right south to ancient Egyptian territory would be viewed as such?

No, far from it, the egyptians talked smack about everybody around them "Vile asiatics", "Ionian dogs", and why am i suppose to know why the ancient egyptians, a long gone people, called them "Nehesu"? hmmmm???

Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Obelisk_18:

why am i suppose to know why the ancient egyptians, a long gone people, called them "Nehesu"? hmmmm???

Are you not expected to know the basis of an answer that you give to someone?

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sundiata:

quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:
Originally posted by Sundiata:

quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Abu Simbel was the southern boundary marker for Egypt when it was created.
Doug.. When exactly did anyone "create" Abu Simbel as I'm pretty sure that it's an archaeological site/location? You must be referring to the temples built by Ramses, which doesn't at all indicate that Abu Simbel was "part of Egypt" more so than Ramses II building a monument in Nehesu territory to impress them and/or his wife. I've always thought it to be pretty clear, as far as evidence leads us, that ancient Egypt's cut off was at Aswan/Elephantine (give or take)...

As a matter of fact, settlements discovered near Abu Simbel suggest (from archaeology) religious implications, indicating that the Nehesu considered it a sacred place long before the Egyptians did.

Your assessment on "Nubia", I agree with and always have..
Egypt was never "cut off" at Aswan. What is the evidence for that?
I'm mainly appealing to primary attestation by travelers, namely Herodotus, who asserted that Egyptians are all those who drink water below Elephantine. Though I'm compelled to rethink that seeing as how Jebel Barkal (I also mispoke when I attributed ancient (Sudanese) religious tradition to Abu Simbel, when I meant Jebel Barkal, which in reality supports you) was considered Egypt's southern border by Thutmosis, even though he was expanding his empire, but also I believe it was Sesostris who barred entrance into Egypt from the south, establishing a fortress at the second cataract, instead of the first. Al Takuri's links are very helpful as well..

I understand. Keep in mind also that Herodatus came after the Kushite dynasty had been expelled from Egypt and had been pushed just below Aswan, thereby making Elephantine the border. This region was in perpetual flux after the 25th dynasty, with the Kushites and other Northern Sudanese Kingdoms controlling parts of Upper Egypt right into the Medieval period.

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :

As we have discussed before elsewhere, the term Nahesi is said to have meant Southerner or southern stranger and was not a synonym for black. The name for black was Kmt, the name of the country of Egypt itself. Likewise, the closest term to Nubian in ancient Egyptian was Nub, meaning gold and the area around the predynastic to early dynastic city of Nubt, bore such a name, as it was the golden city. This city is the basis of the predynastic culture labeled Naqadan and the primary deity from this city was Set, who is often referred to "set the Nubti(or nubian) mean set from the golden city". So the only terms for black and "nubian" were actually used by the Egyptians in reference to themselves and not any other African from further South on the Nile.

http://touregypt.net/featurestories/naqada.htm

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :

Documents from the 6th Dynasty mention "Aswan/Elephantine"
as the farthest south point in Upper Egypt. No outlanders from
any era have a thing to do with it.

Herodotus' attestation reaffirms that, from the Old Kingdom
up to his own day, the self-recognized natural
border never
changed for more than two thousand years.

quote:

I'm mainly appealing to primary attestation by travelers, namely Herodotus, who asserted that Egyptians are all those who drink water below Elephantine.

Posted by Obelisk_18 (Member # 11966) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:

quote:
Originally posted by Obelisk_18:

why am i suppose to know why the ancient egyptians, a long gone people, called them "Nehesu"? hmmmm???
Are you not expected to know the basis of an answer that you give to someone?

Ay, my bad dawge, I actually did a little research and I jus found out "Nehesy" actually meant "southerner", instead of "foreigner" silly me lol [Big Grin]

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :

Just for edification, the region called "Nubia" is mostly found under the waters now occupied by Lake Nasser. This region between the 1st and 2nd cataract is home to some of the oldest cultural remains in the Egyptian Nile Valley, predating those elsewhere in Egypt by many years in some cases. This region was influenced both by migrations and influence from the Sahara and sites like Nabta Playa, as well as sites further South in Sudan. During the period leading up to the emergence of dynastic Egypt, this area was referred to as Ta Seti. Ta Seti was the culmination of many neolithic elements that had existed for many hundreds of years prior along the Nile and in the Sahara. It had many cultural traits that would become identified with dynastic Egypt. At the beginning of the dynastic period, Ta Seti ceased to exist, as the habitation sites are abandoned and no evidence is found of human activity in the region. One of the main reasons for this is environmental. As part of the last wet phase of the Sahara, many parts of the Nile were much more lush than today. The area between the first and second cataracts show evidence of human activity during this period. At the time of the unification and emergence of dynastic Egypt, this area was becoming an inhospitable desert and the people had to move. Likewise, the unification of Egypt also led to conflict with the emerging nation state and Ta Seti was absorbed into Egypt proper as the first and most southern Nome (state) of Egypt. For most of the Old Kingdom, this area remained an inhospitable desert that was only important for its resources. Generally, over the long period of dynastic Egyptian history, these regions were considered the southern frontier zone of Egypt, if not part of southern Egypt outright. Aswan, being the first cataract of the Nile, became the symbolic southern border because here is where ships traveling to and from the south, would have had to transfer their shipments in order to get around the rapids. Trading with the South was always important and most of the major complexes built between the 1st and 2nd cataracts are to protect trade outposts and transshipment locations.

There are many "nubian" temples that were built below Aswan:
http://touregypt.net/magazine/ptemples.htm

In any event, this region was thoroughly Egyptian, from preceding the existence of dynastic Egypt and is as Egyptian as any other region. In all reality this is just the southern extreme of Egypt not some "other" state. The other states were further south.

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :

I looked into Herodotus' statement in full context
and found he did no more than relate what the
Oracle of Ammon stated as the border of Egypt.

quote:
My judgment as to the extent of Egypt is confirmed by an oracle delivered at the
shrine of Ammon, of which I had no knowledge at all until after I had formed my
opinion. It happened that the people of the cities Marea and Apis, who live in the
part of Egypt that borders on Libya, took a dislike to the religious usages of the
country concerning sacrificial animals, and wished no longer to be restricted from
eating the flesh of cows. So, as they believed themselves to be Libyans and not
Egyptians, they sent to the shrine to say that, having nothing in common with the
Egyptians, neither inhabiting the Delta nor using the Egyptian tongue, they claimed
to be allowed to eat whatever they pleased. Their request, however, was refused by
the god, who declared in reply that Egypt was the entire tract of country which the
Nile overspreads and irrigates, and the Egyptians were the people who lived below
Elephantine, and drank the waters of that river.

So said the oracle.

So we have it from Egyptians themselves that Aswan/Elephantine
was the border as per 6th Dynasty's Weny Governor of the South
and a 28th Dynasty unknown priest serving the Oracle of Ammon.

Also one should be careful not to confuse the nome Ta Seti which
ended at Aswan/Elephantine with the independent polity Ta Seti
which, in dynastic times, was relegated to upriver of Aswan/Elephantine
and dubbed Wawat.

quote:
Originally posted by Sundiata:
... Herodotus, who asserted that Egyptians are all those who drink water below Elephantine.

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :

^ Correct. Also, Wawat was in Lower Nubia while Kush was in Upper Nubia.

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :

The ancient Egyptians were quite good at identifying specific groups from specific places when they encountered them. None of the people to the south were considered as one single political entity called "Nubian". There were groups or confederations that they did identify, like the Nine bows, but it isn't clear what the nature of this grouping was. Wawat and Yam seem to be predominant populations from somewhere around the 2nd Cataract going into the Middle Kingdom. As Al Takruri said, Aswan was considered the home of many of the gods in the old kingdom (Khnum, Hapi, Sodpet, etc) and was seen as a logical border. However, it is also true that expansion during the Middle Kingdom by Senwosret and Amenhemaat (himself from Ta Seti), also pushed the actual border further south with the building of a series of fortresses between the first and second cataract. This therefore puts that region into Egypt proper. It was during the Middle and New Kingdom that the connections between Egypt and Kush expanded, with the height of Egyptian expansion in the South coming during the 18th dynasty, where a ceremonial and cosmological connection was made between Gebel Barkal and Luxor, in the worship of Amun. During this time many temples were built between the 1st and 2nd cataracts by various 18th dynasty rulers which would continue right up until the Greco Roman period. By the time of the Ramessids, this domain had again receded back to the frontier zone of the first and second cataract, which is why I would say that Abu Simbel was a symbolic and literal border for Egypt at that time, with Kush being dominant further South. In any way you look at it, this region historically is the closest to ancient Egypt culturally and physically because of its location and history in being so close to Egypt as well as its connection to the more ancient traditions that originated there and in the Sahara which were partly the basis of later dynastic culture. Many of the dieties in being identified with Aswan were also mimicking older dieties that ALSO came from further south, presumably from the cultures that inhabited the regions between the first and second cataract when it was still fertile. And it is in this region that many of the ancient traditions are still present,even though the building of dams and other practices is slowly wiping it out.

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :

^ Yes, that area is very much an important site or archaeology which is why it's a crying shame that the Egyptian government in collaboration with the Sudanese government is destroying these sites with their so-called 'needed' dams. Already many culture sites have been lost.

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :

The Nine Bows referred to "traditional enemies" and
their identity varied through time. Yes, there were
always a few (sometimes four or five) Nehhesw nations
among the Nine Bows but Libyan, A3mw, Keftiu, and even
random Egyptians sometimes turn up in that listing too.

While the political border of Egypt moved ever southward
as it incorporated conquered Nehhesw polities, the natural
border remained inviolate despite foreign territorial annexations.

The identity of Egyptians and Southerners as a related
people is evident in the term KM.t[nwt] and perhaps can
explain why Levantine annexations weren't considered the
same politico-territorially as were upNile sites.

quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
None of the people to the south were considered as one single political entity called "Nubian". There were groups or confederations that they did identify, like the Nine bows, but it isn't clear what the nature of this grouping was.

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :

quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

..The identity of Egyptians and Southerners as a related
people is evident in the term KM.t[nwt] and perhaps can
explain why Levantine annexations weren't considered the
same politico-territorially as were upNile sites.

This fact here cannot be stressed enough given the continuous repetition of fallacy by some scholars and laymen alike (Hore rings a bell) that Egyptians were somehow closer related in anyway 'racially', culturally, or poltically with Levantine/Asiatic peoples than they were with other Africans such as so-called 'Nubians'.

Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
While perhaps without a strict boundary type of
border as nations do today there certainly was
a territorial border distinguishing T3wy from her
nearest southern neighbor before annexation.

Some primary travelers' texts must speak of it.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=003382#000030

T3wy's natural southern border was where
limestone ended and sandstone began.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=003308#000009
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=003308#000022

Evergreen Writes:

Yes and this border waxed and wanned through-out the Dynastic period.

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :

Yes, the political border changed as more southern
territories were annexed or regained independence.
However, the natural border was never altered. The
Southerners retained their pre-empire ethnonyms.

Question 1.
When Piye and Taharqa established the most expansive
Nile Valley to Levant empire in history, was it Egyptian
or Keshli and why?

Question 2.
When Cambyses took Egypt after conquering every land
between Persia and the Nile, did Egypt then become the
southern border of Persia?

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :

One important role that the 1st cataract played was as a transhipment point for goods flowing from the south. Many of the fortresses established in the region between the first and second cataracts were there to protect supply routes, mining routes, smelting centers and other trade and shipping transfer locations at other locations along the Nile. Even though the border at Aswan was considered a natural border, the trade with the South and mines to the South of the first cataract meant that Egypt was almost always active in the regions south of Aswan, with the area being under de-facto Egyptian control for most of Egypt's history. Current research suggests that the Egyptians had mines in this region going back well into the Old Kingdom and that the fortresses of the Middle Kingdom were established on older sites going back to the Old Kingdom.

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :

^ Excellent stuff, you guys!

I wonder, is it possible that these Kmtwy mines were first established immediately after the fall of the Ta Seti kingdom or later?

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :

Here is some info:

quote:

Archaeological site in modern Sudan. In the Old Kingdom (about 2686-2181 BC) it was the site of a small settlement, perhaps a trading post and place for copper working. The finds suggest that mainly Egyptians lived here, although some Nubian pottery was also found. In the Middle Kingdom (about 2025-1700 BC) the Egyptians built a huge fortress at the site, with a temple of Horus. The place was still important in the Second Intermediate Period, when it became part of the realm of the rulers of Kush (probably Kerma). On reconquering the region the Egyptians rebuilt the temple and fortress in the New Kingdom (about 1550-1069 BC).

From: http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/buhen/index.html

But I would also like to point out that it isn't really confirmed that the ancient Egyptians sacked Ta Seti, meaning totally destroyed the people and culture there. Most of that is more speculation based on limited direct evidence. The primary culprit behind the dissappearance of Ta Seti was probably the environment, with that region of the Nile becoming more arid around 3,000 B.C. This is precisely the opposite of the environment of this region for 4 to 5,000 years prior, where we find remains of abundant settlements and rock art. The only "evidence" of Ta Seti being "sacked" is an inscription on some rocks that supposedly says that x number of captives and y number of cattle were captured from around the Second Cataract. Now of course nobody can say for sure whether these scratches on this mountain really represents the destruction of Ta Seti, or just the results of one battle.

As for the name "Nubian" again the only word close to Nubian in Egyptian was "Nub" and this word the Egyptians used for themselves:

Lady "Nubi" from the 18th or 19th dynasty:

I also like the grill in front of the woman, presumably for cooking the meat on it....

Just for comparison, an image from Nigeria:

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :

You do realize that the Nehhesu controlled some of
these forts (trade depots) for a longer period than
did the RtRmt.

quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
One important role that the 1st cataract played was as a transhipment point for goods flowing from the south. Many of the fortresses established in the region between the first and second cataracts were there to protect supply routes, mining routes, smelting centers and other trade and shipping transfer locations at other locations along the Nile. Even though the border at Aswan was considered a natural border, the trade with the South and mines to the South of the first cataract meant that Egypt was almost always active in the regions south of Aswan, with the area being under de-facto Egyptian control for most of Egypt's history. Current research suggests that the Egyptians had mines in this region going back well into the Old Kingdom and that the fortresses of the Middle Kingdom were established on older sites going back to the Old Kingdom.

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :

A note about pre-dynastic TaSeti:

Originally TaSeti extended from Nag el Hasaya, Edfu in what became T3wy's
2nd sepat (nome), to the Batn el Hagar (just above the 2nd cataract).
Seyala and Qustul were the major TaSeti polities nearest TaShemaw (Upper
Egypt)during Naqada IIIb1 a.k.a. Dynasty 0.

Reference the maps in Malek's Cultural Atlas of Ancent Egypt
to see the shifting political borders of the Egyptian Empire.

Recently a dig uncovered some of the patented
C-Group era "TaSeti briefs" down river of where
such folk were supposed to have lived.
Nubians at Hierakonpolis: Week 1: A Loincloth in Tomb 9 (clickable link)

Also, I recall other TaSeti related finds
(I believe in association with canine remains)
somewhere down river and west of the Nile.
Again, a more solid reference/comments
regarding the find and its dating are
appreciated.

Rasol has previously noted pan graves reminescent
of the Mazoi/Medjay/Beja as far north as Lower Egypt.

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :

quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
You do realize that the Nehhesu controlled some of
these forts (trade depots) for a longer period than
did the RtRmt.

I do know that they were occupied by the various Southern entities at various points, but not for how long.

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :

Wawat was only a small part of Kush immediately
adjacent to Kmt. Kush stretched from the
1st to the 6th cataracts. Wawat lay between the
1st and 2nd cataract. Wawat's capital was
Aniba and sometimes Faras. The capital of Kush
was Amara. In the late -14th century Huy
notes 3 rulers over Wawat and 6 sovereigns over
Kush.

Snefru of the 4th dynasty built Buhen but the
Wawat took it from Kmt late in dynasty 5. In the
12th dynasty Sesostris III retook Buhen and
pushed further south. Kush took it back in the
13th dynasty. Ahmose of dynasty 18 made it Kmt's
south border.

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :

I agree that there was an ebb and flow at various periods and Huy was Viceroy of Kush, so even if there were sovereigns in Wawat, they still were under the Egyptian state. And I am pretty sure that the Kushite Empire which stretched from the 1st to 6th cataract probably came after they were expelled from Egypt proper, as from the 18th dynasty on to the Ramessids there was a significant Egyptian presence South of the Second cataract. But it does seem clear that there are long periods where these regions were not under direct Egyptian control.

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :

ups!

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :

What???

Wawat ruled itself with three division leaders
in Huy's time. How in the world does that make
it part of the Egyptian state. And what is this
Egyptian state?

Face it. These people weren't Egyptian and their
land wasn't Egypt no more than the Lower Nile's
people became Persians or the Lower Nile became
Persia because they were under the Persians.

Argue with Weny and Ammon's Oracle. I'm
through trying to get through to you about
this because you reject history and primary
texts in stubborn favor of unsubstantiable
personal opinion.

quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
I agree that there was an ebb and flow at various periods and Huy was Viceroy of Kush, so even if there were sovereigns in Wawat, they still were under the Egyptian state.

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :

quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Yes, the political border changed as more southern
territories were annexed or regained independence.
However, the natural border was never altered. The
Southerners retained their pre-empire ethnonyms.

Question 1.
When Piye and Taharqa established the most expansive
Nile Valley to Levant empire in history, was it Egyptian
or Keshli and why?

Question 2.
When Cambyses took Egypt after conquering every land
between Persia and the Nile, did Egypt then become the
southern border of Persia?

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :

I had wanted to integrate this and a previous post
into one body. Both are from archived threads but
I had a hard time finding the following.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Late in 5th dynasty times Wawat took over Buhen
fortress, built in the 4th dynasty by Snefru, and
held it until the 12th dynasty when Sesostris took
it and pillaged pastoral populations to its south.
In the very next dynasty (13th) Kesh took it over
holding it until the 18th dynasty.

During the first 14 dynasties of its history, though
TaWy built Buhen fortress (exchange place or trade
center), Nehesis controlled it for 11 dynasties.

quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Wawat was only a small part of Kush immediately
adjacent to Kmt. Kush stretched from the
1st to the 6th cataracts. Wawat lay between the
1st and 2nd cataract. Wawat's capital was
Aniba and sometimes Faras. The capital of Kush
was Amara. In the late -14th century Huy
notes 3 rulers over Wawat and 6 sovereigns over
Kush.

Snefru of the 4th dynasty built Buhen but the
Wawat took it from Kmt late in dynasty 5. In the
12th dynasty Sesostris III retook Buhen and
pushed further south. Kush took it back in the
13th dynasty. Ahmose of dynasty 18 made it Kmt's
south border.

Let's visualize it in a chart

code:

Dyn   RtRmt   Nhhsw
----+-------+-------+--------------------------
  4     x             Snefru erects the edifice
  5     x       x     Nehhesu take control
  6             x               "
  7             x               "
  8             x               "
  9             x               "
 10             x               "
 11             x               "
 12     x             Senwosret's punitive raid
 13             x     Control reverts to Nehhesu
 14             x               "
 15             x               " 
 16             x               "
 17             x               "
 18     x             Egypt subdues Lower Kush

Makes one wonder why Buhen is considered an
Egyptian fortress instead of a Nehhesi trade
depot. Facts like these have made up to date
scholars (clickable link) question and rethink
the role of the Nehhesi and their polities clickable
link) as more than just some kind of Egyptian B Team
at best or back door benighted savages at worst.

Nile Valley Civilization began upriver. Egypt is
downriver. Egypt is the child not the parent. The
Nehhesu preceed the RetRemetu. Consequently we
could more rightly say, as did the ancients, that
Egypt is a part of Kush.

Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evergreen:

quote:
Originally posted by Sundiata:
Abu Simbel was far south of Aswan, hence, extant outside classical Egypt's borders and control.
Evergreen Writes:

When you say "Classical Egypt" what do you mean? Are you referencing Dynastic Egypt? As far as I am aware, there was no such thing as "Nubia" during the times of Dynastic Egypt.

^ The neverending struggle to understand Kemet, in spite of Eurocentric distortion.

The very idea of 'nubia', which lies outside of 'classic egypt', is nonsense mounted on nonsense.

Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Yes, the political border changed as more southern territories were annexed or regained independence. However, the natural border was never altered. The Southerners retained their pre-empire ethnonyms.

Evergreen Writes:

There were political and natural borders that delineated AE. There was also a cultural sphere that extended from Upper Egypt to well south of modern Khartoum along the Nile. This cultural sphere dates back to the eary Holocene.

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :

^ Correct. I think more should be discussed about the place whom Egyptians truly called 'Nubia' that is the Egyptian city of Nubti.

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :

Yes. I did a post outlining that fact a couple
of years ago. If I find before the edit window
closes I'll tack on the url here.

1 http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=003284#00005

2 GOOGLE altakruri coffee ramblings
for a thread currently accessible only via GOOGLE's cache.

3 http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=003308

quote:
Originally posted by Evergreen:
There was also a cultural sphere that extended from Upper Egypt to well south of modern Khartoum along the Nile. This cultural sphere dates back to the eary Holocene.

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :

^