posted
I'm using this title of a Last Poet's instrumental (w/chant) to make a place for conversation on the genius of the type of African religion practiced from Angola to Cote d'Ivoire, transported to the Americas by enslaved Africans, who, steeped in its traditions, tapped into a soul force that would overcome their enslavers by altering for all time their enslavers concepts of the divine, worship procedures, music, dance, sex, medicine, psychology, etc.
whatever. This thread is for examining it in its African and diasporic contexts, as well as its similarities to other theologies like those of the First Americans which it syncretized or those of India and southeast Asia, even the ancient Levant and pre-Hellene Greece and pre-Roman Italy [they all having ophiolatry in common].
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
My multi-ethnicity is irrelevant to this topic and indeed irrelevant to anything I compose and present.
Please keep posts on topic.
The orishas or loa or whoever have kept the Africans transplanted to the Americas as a vital contributors to the heady mix which made the New World and "modern" culture what it is.
I want to exaine the dynamics of this all pervading soul force which has in aricualrly invigorated the Africans of the Americas.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: My multi-ethnicity is irrelevant to this topic and indeed irrelevant to anything I compose and present.
Please keep posts on topic.
The orishas or loa or whoever have kept the Africans transplanted to the Americas as a vital contributors to the heady mix which made the New World and "modern" culture what it is.
I want to exaine the dynamics of this all pervading soul force which has in aricualrly invigorated the Africans of the Americas.
lol, and you posted this on a day most special to me (I won't say why, for sake of my security in the larger context).
I am very stirred by what you're saying about this "soul force". Most especially since I am a native Yoruba (Nigeria group) and I have noticed this influence ...
Your words also suggest an understanding of the function of Eshu (translated as "the devil" in our Yoruba/Nigerian understanding of Christianity). Eshu, to the Ancient Yoruba (apparently) was seen more as a "trickster" deity who put you through tests, sometimes very unpleasant for a "greater good". Well, something along those lines anyway. Eshu has a VERY STRONG match with my understanding of the Egyptian Seth deity.
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posted
^ I have only a minimal understading of vodun etc. compared to Egyptian religious beliefs, but does not vodun feature a fundamental cosmic tenant similar to that of Egyptian Maat??
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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The next thing you know, they'll be trying to set up whitewashed Orisa tourism in Nigeria. Pathetic.
That Last Poet song bangs. I'm copping it.
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For those who can understand the language it's totally clear. I mean, the concepts are the same (white theme, fertility etc). I'm not saying Yorubas are descended from AEs (lol ) but their worldviews are fascinatingly similar. Amazing stuff!
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No eating/harvesting of Yams till the 7th month.Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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Forgive that funny way the narrator lady speaks. Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
Many people out there say the Yoruba got their culture from the Egyptians. Funny as hell.
Posts: 603 | From: Mobile, Alabama | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
^There are aspects of the ancient Nile Valley Dynastic Kingdoms that come from the West, so who's to say there isn't a common origin for both cultures?
posted
^ Well, the cultures are strikingly similar. There's no way in hell the Yorubas and Ancient Egyptians don't share a common "cultural" ancestor.
From the "igbales" (brooms for sweeping dirt) found in Timbuktu, as well as among Yorubas (and practially every one of the 200+ ethnic groups in Nigeria), AND as well as AEs to the whole concept of Kingship and Worship - Yorubas and AEs are practically cousins IMHO. In fact what I've noticed from watching these videos is that "pentecostal Christianity" that is so common now in Southern Nigeria has more in common with Yoruba religion than it has with King-James Christianity.
In Yoruba churches we say "Amin" instead of "Amen" and we call God, "Olorun" or "Olodumare" (the Yoruba supreme deity). And how about being possessed by a deity? that whole church thing where you go to the alter out front and you start spazzing out when the pastor touches your head.
Let's not even talk about the extremes of sprinkling and drinking of "holy water" at the R.C.C.G or the fact that "aladura" Christians in Nigeria regularly visit Osun river for spiritual rites. In fact those aladuras BLATANTLY practice Yoruba spirituality under the guise of Christianity.
The AEs seem very much like the Hausa/Fulani folks in Nothern Nigeria.
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quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): ^There are aspects of the ancient Nile Valley Dynastic Kingdoms that come from the West, so who's to say there isn't a common origin for both cultures?
I didn't even see your post before I posted my last one. Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
alTakruri, do you know what "Odu" really means within the context of the Orisas?
I noticed the word was used a lot by the priests to describe the "qualities" of deities. Fyi, about 30% or so of what those priests are saying goes over my head. I think my Yoruba vocabulary is very incomplete - most likely as a result of growing up in Lagos. Also my familiarity with the Oyo dialects has waned as a consequence of living in Europe.
In secular Yoruba speech, "Odu" generally means a "trick" or a "device" or perhaps it means any type of technology?
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The next thing you know, they'll be trying to set up whitewashed Orisa tourism in Nigeria. Pathetic.
That Last Poet song bangs. I'm copping it.
LOL
Well, where do you think Europeans got their black madonnas from? But perhaps these white vodoo priestesses are no more silly than white Bhuddist monks or nuns. You know how some liberal white people are. I seriously doubt they actually usurp the vodoo religion for themselves and deny its African identity. In fact, look at the portrait of the black Madonna and child.
Then again, I remember either Takruri or someone else posted a link to a ridiculously hilarious vodun webpage that depicted Obatala as a "white god" or white man instead of a god clothed in white! LMAOPosts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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For those who can understand the language it's totally clear. I mean, the concepts are the same (white theme, fertility etc). I'm not saying Yorubas are descended from AEs (lol ) but their worldviews are fascinatingly similar. Amazing stuff!
I don't know much about West African deities like Obatala, but Ausar (Osiris) is an agricultural deity and ancestor figure of the pharaohs of Egypt and symbolizes the dead king.
quote: "the adoption of poverty as a way of life"
"mind and body must be pure to move closer to creator"
"live a life of poverty and piety in the midst of plenty"
devotees carry "opa osoro" / "the staff of revenge"
Interesting. I did not know West Africans practiced ascetism as part of their religious beliefs, but I'm not surprised as such beliefs are pretty much universal.
quote: I did not even know about this "opa osoro" before I chose my latest name. Hmmm.
The Egyptians also included some vegetables as part of sacrificial offerings and on special holidays made taboos against certain food from lettuce to pigs.
Is that really a flail or a fly swatter. Since I onced mistook the West African fly swatter for a flail. The fly swatter was originally made from an oxe's tail and the ancient Egyptian kings and noblemen wore them as part of their outfits. Crooks were basically shepard staffs, but I still see the similarity in iconography.
Aset (Isis) was Ausar's sister and wife, and while she wasn't a river goddess, she still represented fertility and magical power.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ebony Allen: Many people out there say the Yoruba got their culture from the Egyptians. Funny as hell.
It is funny but sad, that such people discredit their ancestors or West Africans of their culture and try to attribute to other peoples even if they were Africans.
quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): There are aspects of the ancient Nile Valley Dynastic Kingdoms that come from the West, so who's to say there isn't a common origin for both cultures?
Indeed, the Sahara was a significant ancestral source for both East and West Africans alike.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Ever since the first realization of Orisa they have been slandered. Orunmila is a fortune teller than can be bought on the cheap with an animal sacrifice, a bottle of rum, and the proper monetary donation to a priest or two. The way most people talk about Osun she should be better known as the Orisa of prostitution. Personally I’ve heard an Osun initiate refer to his Orisa as the goddess of sex and money. The Orisa of the rainbow, Osumare, is accused of being gay or some kind of transvestite. Orisas are accused of human pettiness. Yemonja doesn’t get along with Oya. Esu is all about revenge and tricking people, and Baba is far from being Ifa’s version of the Christian’s devil. There is a lot of slander about the Orisa community.
Because too many of us don’t have the spiritual connection to talk to the Orisas directly we rely on the word of others to be our spiritual guides to the world of Orisa. Unfortunately, not all spiritual guides have the connection to Orisa themselves. Too many people have gotten the story from someone else themselves. Over the years and over the generations, the traditional understandings of Orisas have become little more than the fairy tales of the Ifa community. And when the African stories get translated from Yoruba into English or other languages, interpretations of the stories get twisted with the poor choice of words from the conversion. Such is the problem of a spiritual tradition that is taught word of mouth, especially when taught to people who usually learn from reading and writing.
However, if there was just one Orisa that I had to pick that was maligned the most it would have to be Baba Ogun, the Orisa of metallurgy and technology. There is a story in Ifa accusing Ogun of “raping” Yemonja, the mother of Orisas. Because of his infraction against the Yemonja and the rest of the Orisa community Ogun exiled himself from olorun and abandoned the Orisa community. The Orisas tried to make due without Ogun but their tools began to break and the community began to fall into disrepair. When the Orisas pleaded to Ogun to come back he was so ashamed he would grab his machete and run them off. Only Osun, who was able to use her sweet disposition, could lure Ogun out of the woods.
Ogun is not the antisocial thug of the Orisa community many people claim he is. If nothing else Baba Ogun is very respectful towards women and everyone. Although he can be intense and very no nonsense, he is not always angry or as quick to anger as people think he is. In fact, Baba has a very good sense of humor. Baba Ogun gets a kick out of seeing so many Ifa devotees try to win his favor by getting the largest Ogun pot they can lift. I actually knew an Obatala iyawo who had an Ogun pot large enough to hold a four foot shovel. The bigger the pot, the bigger you got! It actually makes Baba laugh to see so many people actually buy into the human presumption that the more the better. But it doesn’t buy Baba’s favor one iota.
Baba Ogun is the Orisa of war. He does get on the warpath when it is necessary according to Olodumare’s divine plan. But Baba doesn’t go to war at the slightest provocation. If Baba was to make the decision to go to war then trust me it will be for a very good reason. Ogun knows that war is not something to be taken lightly. War involves death and destruction. War is nothing to be glorified and Ogun does not dream of war for war’s sake.
Baba Ogun is the deity of metallurgy and technology. He is often depicted as a blacksmith standing over an anvil with a hammer in one hand and a piece of metal in the other. Ogun is credited for being the inspiration for human progress and development of technology. War machines are usually a strong proponent of technology. The defense contracting business of the United States has always been on the cutting edge of technology. The trickle down effect of this technological development usually finds civilian applications once the weapon developers move on to the more latest and the more greatest new thing.
With the foundation of Ifa going back something like five thousand years, it is the oldest spiritualities still in being practiced today. If this is the case, it is a reasonable assumption that the African Orisa Ogun was modified to fit the European’s belief system and became the ancient Greek god Ares, the god of war of Mount Olympus from about eight hundred to four hundred years before the birth of Christ, and then later Mars, the god of war in Roman mythology from about eight hundred years before Christ to about five hundred years after the year of the Christian lord. With this in mind and the fact that more people have been exposed to Roman and Greek mythology, more people are a lot more familiar with Ogun than they think.
But for some reason people within Ifa are responsible for some of the most misconstrued concepts of Ogun. And if he was as blood thirsty as a lot of people portray him to be a lot of people would find themselves suffering from Baba’s wrath. But like all Orisas Baba Ogun is gracious and he is above petty human emotions like anger and revenge. His patience is longer than a lot of people give him credit for. His sense of loyalty and correctness should be above reproach. More people need to learn Ogun for who he truly is and not for what tradition says he is.
I'm not sure at all about the second to last paragraph.
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
Djehuti wrote: ---------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Originally posted by Ebony Allen:
Many people out there say the Yoruba got their culture from the Egyptians. Funny as hell. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------
It is funny but sad, that such people discredit their ancestors or West Africans of their culture and try to attribute to other peoples even if they were Africans. ----------------------------
Who are these people you are refering to? What is their ethnicity? I ask because it seem as if you are suggesting that those people are not white.
Did it ever occur to your idiotic self that those are white people saying that as yet another one of their diffusionist myths? They've done it with everyone else.
You really are a racist bucket of dung.
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posted
Has anyone found an answer to my initial question??
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I have only a minimal understading of vodun etc. compared to Egyptian religious beliefs, but does not vodun feature a fundamental cosmic tenant similar to that of Egyptian Maat??
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Orifusi, father of Elu, was searching for a way to avioid death so that death would not kill him, his children and his wives. They said: if you want to avoid death you must sacrifice and follow the teaching of Ifa. Ifa will teach you the conduct and character which will enable you to avoid death. They said: when you sacrifice, you should begin doing good from this day on more than ever before. For your sacrifice is in vain if your character is deficient ... Therefore you should take the sacrificial pigeons and chickens home. You should release them....And you must not kill anything from this day on. For anyone who does not want death to kill him, s/he should not kill anything...
This text, as well as other Ifa texts, not only parallel Maatian texts in privileging character and thus, the moral life over ritual, but it also reflects the centrality of reciprocity as a moral value. Reciprocity is, of course, an essential theme in Maatian ethics which Kheti himself takes up in his discussion of leadership, service to God and avoidance of destructive behaviour.
posted
What exactly is the relationship between the Yorubas and their neighbours, the Igbos?
quote:
The new head of the Christian church, the Reverend James Smith, possesses nothing of Mr. Brown’s compassion, kindness, or accommodation. He despises the way that Mr. Brown tried to lead the church. Mr. Smith finds many converts unfamiliar with important religious ideas and rituals, proving to himself that Mr. Brown cared only about recruiting converts rather than making them Christians. He vows to get the church back on the narrow path and soon demonstrates his intolerance of clan customs by suspending a young woman whose husband mutilated her dead ogbanje child in the traditional way. The missionary does not believe that such children go back into the mother’s womb to be born again, and he condemns people who practice these beliefs as carrying out the work of the devil.
Each year, the Igbo clan holds a sacred ceremony to honor the earth deity. The egwugwu, ancestral spirits of the clan, dance in the tradition of the celebration. Enoch, an energetic and zealous convert, often provokes violent quarrels with people he sees as enemies. Approaching the egwugwu, who are keeping their distance from the Christians, Enoch dares the egwugwu to touch a Christian, so one of the egwugwu strikes him with a cane. Enoch responds by pulling the spirit’s mask off, a serious offense to the clan because, according to Umuofian tradition, unmasking an egwugwu kills the ancestral spirit.
The next day, the egwugwu from all the villages gather in the marketplace. They storm Enoch’s compound and destroy it with fire and machetes. Enoch takes refuge in the church compound, but the egwugwu follow him. Mr. Smith meets the men at the church door. Then the masked egwugwu begin to move toward the church, but they are quieted by their leader, who belittles Mr. Smith and his interpreter because they cannot understand what he is saying. He tells them that the egwugwu will not harm Mr. Smith for the sake of Mr. Brown, who was their friend. Mr. Smith will be able to stay safely in his house in Umuofia and worship his own god, but they intend to destroy the church that has caused the Igbo so many problems. Through his interpreter, Mr. Smith tries to calm them and asks that they leave the matter to him, but the egwugwu demolish his church to satisfy the clan spirit momentarily.
Commentary
Throughout the book Achebe gives his characters names with hidden meanings; for example, Okonkwo’s name implies male pride and stubbornness. When Achebe adds British characters, he gives two of them common and unremarkable British names, Brown and Smith. His third British character, the District Commissioner, is known only by his title. The choice of names, and lack thereof, is in itself a commentary by Achebe on the incoming faceless strangers.
Achebe portrays Mr. Smith as a stereotype of the inflexible Christian missionary in Africa. He is a fire-and-brimstone type of preacher, who likens Igbo religion to the pagan prophets of Baal of the Old Testament and brands traditional Igbo beliefs as the work of the devil. Achebe suggests that the issue between Mr. Smith and the local people may be more than one of religion: “[Mr. Smith] saw things as black and white. And black was evil.”
Mr. Smith preaches an uncompromising interpretation of the scriptures. He suspends a woman convert who allows an old Igbo belief about the ogbanje to contaminate her new Christian way of life. He labels this incident as “pouring new wine into old bottles,” an act prohibited in the New Testament of the Christian Bible—”Neither do men put new wine into old bottles” (Matthew 9:17).
Achebe implies that strict adherence to scripture and dogma produces religious fanaticism. Enoch’s unmasking of an egwugwu is portrayed as a result of unbridled fanaticism. In traditional Igbo religion, the ancestral spirit communicates through the mask in which it speaks. The Igbo believe that during this time, the human underneath the mask is not present; the mask is transformed into the spirit. Thus, unmasking the egwugwu kills the ancestral spirit. Enoch’s action exposes the non-divine nature of an egwugwu, just a man beneath a mask, another sign of “things falling apart.” Ironically, the outcome of Enoch’s fanaticism must surely cause some clan members to question their long-held, sacred beliefs regarding the egwugwu.
Consistent with his high-energy radicalism, Enoch is disappointed that his action and its consequences do not provoke a holy war against the Igbo nonbelievers. “Holy war” was the term applied by zealot Christians of the twelfth and thirteenth centuries to the Crusades against the infidels, nonbelievers in Christianity.
The reference to the Mother of Spirits is another foreshadowing of the decline of the Umuofians. Her wailing and crying signals the death of “the very soul of the tribe.” Enoch’s unmasking of the egwugwu and the subsequent destruction of the church by the Igbo represent the climax of confrontation between traditional Igbo religious beliefs and British colonial Christianity, and, to a great extent, these events symbolize the broader cultural confrontation. Even the egwugwu leader acknowledges the cultural standoff between them: “We say he [Mr. Smith] is foolish because he does not know our ways, and perhaps he says we are foolish because we do not know his.” Such an acknowledgment seems an indication that the Igbo are becoming resigned to their “new dispensation”—that they are moving toward a collective surrender to becoming civilized under the onslaught of forces far more organized and powerful than themselves.
Glossary
• about sheep and goats / about wheat and tares Two frequently quoted teachings of Jesus relate to the need for separating the good from the bad. In one, he refers to separating the sheep from the goats (Matthew 25:32); in the other, separating the wheat from the tares, or weeds (Matthew 13:30). Mr. Smith was obviously much concerned about dividing the community between the good (the Christian converts) and the bad (the traditional Igbo believers). Not coincidentally, his suspension of a convert is also based on a quotation from Matthew (9:17).
• prophets of Baal Mr. Smith is comparing the pagan worship of the warrior god Baal, mentioned in the Old Testament (I Kings 18) to the Igbo religion. The Israelites saw the worship of Baal as a rival to their worship of God, causing the prophet Elijah to challenge the prophets of Baal on Mount Carmel.
• bull-roarer a noisemaker made from a length of string or rawhide threaded through an object of wood, stone, pottery, or bone; a ritual device that makes a loud humming noise when swung rapidly overhead.
• ogwu medicine, magic.
• desecrated to have taken away the sacredness of; treat as not sacred; profane.
• The body of the white man, I salute you. The egwugwu speak indirectly, using a formal language of immortal spirits.
Their "ogwu" seems to mean the same thing as our "ogun". Is this just the same word spelt differently due to "slight" difference in pronounciation?
Just how widespread is the Religion of the Orisas? Is there a *known* older spiritual system it derives from?
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posted
^ I would be careful about trying to connect far disparate religious beliefs and customs with each other or even identify them with each other. Such is a common mistake among many peoples who've been Christianized and especially among Africans. (note New Word Vodun is a messed up mix of Catholicism and native African religion whose many aspects contradict each other)
quote:Originally posted by Herukhuti:
Orifusi, father of Elu, was searching for a way to avioid death so that death would not kill him, his children and his wives. They said: if you want to avoid death you must sacrifice and follow the teaching of Ifa. Ifa will teach you the conduct and character which will enable you to avoid death. They said: when you sacrifice, you should begin doing good from this day on more than ever before. For your sacrifice is in vain if your character is deficient ... Therefore you should take the sacrificial pigeons and chickens home. You should release them....And you must not kill anything from this day on. For anyone who does not want death to kill him, s/he should not kill anything...
This text, as well as other Ifa texts, not only parallel Maatian texts in privileging character and thus, the moral life over ritual, but it also reflects the centrality of reciprocity as a moral value. Reciprocity is, of course, an essential theme in Maatian ethics which Kheti himself takes up in his discussion of leadership, service to God and avoidance of destructive behaviour.
Yes, what I noticed is that the Egyptian concept of Maat entitles balance in the cosmos and especially in magic. I notice Vodun follows a similar concept in that evil is rewarded with evil and good is rewarded with good. Thus anyone performing bad magic gets afflicted with bad things.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Does anyone know who I have to know to get inline for this illustrious Ooni of Ife title? I want to carry that crook & fail.
alTakruri, Doug, Explo., Myra ... any one who knows how these things go down, holler at me.
I'm a native of Ife but not of the royal line (however, I am of the Yoruba royal line - mother side - in Ogun state), so please let me know what GREAT SOCIETIES (Ogboni perhaps?) I have to join to get in. Aaight.
Peace.
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posted
Akon (clickable link) = a phenomenal Senegalese artist of Wolof ethnicity who's currently turning out Hip Hop R&B.
quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): Armed with Budge's Hieroglyphic dictionary and a list of African ethnic groups you too can find some more matching examples.
Yo, big bruv I'm in the motherland right now and you won't believe how obsessed folks are with Akon. Phenomenal.
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posted
By the way are the Yoruba originally from Sudan? Many of them look similar to some Sudanese. Like Djimon Hounsou.
Posts: 603 | From: Mobile, Alabama | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I would be careful about trying to connect far disparate religious beliefs and customs with each other or even identify them with each other. Such is a common mistake among many peoples who've been Christianized and especially among Africans. (note New Word Vodun is a messed up mix of Catholicism and native African religion whose many aspects contradict each other)
Actually, I wouldn't go as far as to call the religious beliefs and customs of Igbos and Yorubas as 'far and disparate'.
Some Igbo towns are literally a few hours 'walk' from Yoruba towns.
If you look at the Benin people (of Southern Nigeria) for example, it can (and often is) described as a culture that's at the same time Yoruba and Igbo. Their language sounds more like Igbo but is different. Their kings are called 'Obas' like Yorubas and their food seems like a mix of Igbo and Yoruba food.
quote: Obeah (sometimes spelled "Obi") is a term used in the West Indies to refer to folk magic, sorcery, and religious practices derived from Central African and West African origins. Obeah can either be a form of 'dark' magic or 'good' magic. As such, Obeah is similar to Palo, Voodoo, Santeria, rootwork, and hoodoo. Obeah is practiced in Suriname, Jamaica, Haiti, the Virgin Islands, Trinidad and Tobago, Guyana, Belize, the Bahamas, St. Vincent and the Grenadines, Barbados and many other Caribbean countries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obeah
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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) but their worldviews are fascinatingly similar. Amazing stuff!
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